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Transcript for 02-04-2015, 1965 lines:

00:00:02 mircea_popescu: it is a matter of need : in order to ensure your space you must control whole chains. there's no escaping this, and so someone will have to. nobody particularly has a desire to run a cnc mill or an ic fab, but if one wants working software, one has to. and so it flows.

00:00:14 asciilifeform: ^

00:00:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a naked woman can be taught anything if you're willing to break an uncountable set of sticks.

00:00:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: teach'em, why not

00:00:58 mircea_popescu: the part that's worth teaching is easy to teach, and unrelated to intelligence.

00:01:06 mircea_popescu: the part you won't teach them shouldn't be taught anyway.

00:01:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wake me up when they get kernel

00:01:16 mircea_popescu: "how to make this counterintuitive sht work ? " "don't."

00:01:40 asciilifeform: wake me up when they build a fab.

00:01:47 mircea_popescu: y u wanna sleep so much.

00:01:48 asciilifeform: even a 'fairchild' circa '70s fab.

00:01:56 asciilifeform: practicing for cemetary.

00:02:11 asciilifeform: i hear sleep is the main order of business there.

00:02:18 mircea_popescu: lol

00:02:28 mircea_popescu: i never hear of anyone flunk the cemetery.

00:02:33 mircea_popescu: scarcely any need to practice then.

00:02:34 mod6: so re: all the uint32_t, sorry that you're all having problems with this. I guess I missed a lot of stuff.

00:02:48 asciilifeform: mod6: read the log. i fixed it, only to reveal a mega-bug

00:02:49 mircea_popescu: mod6 do you have any idea why your thing compiled it ?

00:02:55 asciilifeform: where none of the 'static' stuff actually worked ever.

00:03:06 mircea_popescu: yeah, read whole log,

00:03:24 asciilifeform: will post patch for 'fix' in a spell. gotta change clothes first.

00:03:48 asciilifeform: problem, currently, is that no one but me seems to be able to replicate this!

00:03:59 asciilifeform: maybe hanbot can try? gentoo box?

00:04:09 mod6: mircea_popescu: nope. none. my deb6 environments (yes more than one) all compiled it fine with gcc 4.4.5. i didn't have problems on gentoo either fwiw. but not sure what the gentoo AMI had for a compiler. my guess is that I was fooled by gcc.

00:04:34 mircea_popescu: mod6 the question is : why has your compiler not complained about an undefined symbol

00:04:38 mircea_popescu: given tyhe symbol is in fact undefined.

00:04:49 mod6: no good answers there.

00:04:56 mircea_popescu: its mother is, "what else is your compiler putting in you don't know about"

00:05:10 asciilifeform: ^^^

00:05:13 mircea_popescu: and their joint horrible twin sister being, "hey, turns out so called static builds aren't even static"

00:05:17 asciilifeform: ^^^^

00:05:23 mircea_popescu: by now we have a family of these monsters, which is very worrisome,.

00:05:23 mod6: i think, maybe im not the right guy for this. or at minimum, I need someone who can look over my shoulder on this. there's no way we should have these issues 5 months into a project.

00:05:24 *: asciilifeform lays off the poor ^ key

00:05:38 asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu has it.

00:05:41 asciilifeform: in spades.

00:05:42 mircea_popescu: mod6 no, actually, there's no way to have these issues INTO GCC!!!

00:05:53 asciilifeform: i take it mircea_popescu is a gcc-bug-virgin

00:06:00 mircea_popescu: which is a 20 year old project, and which i had been using as a reason to justify why im not taking a piss in rms' hairdo

00:06:02 asciilifeform: or - was

00:06:09 mod6: mp: im not sure I follow

00:06:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's bugs and there's bugs.

00:06:17 mircea_popescu: mod6 from which point ?

00:06:17 mod6: I don't know why it worked for me.

00:06:31 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rms is long in the tooth, old, and endlessly hammered by clean-shaven fools who don't eat 'toe jam' and spit in his face

00:06:33 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 no, actually, there's no way to have these issues INTO GCC!!! << here. what?

00:06:49 mircea_popescu: mod6 what i'm saying is, this stuff would not reasonably be expected by you, nor is it a function of the project.

00:06:51 asciilifeform: for all we know, 'toe jam' is a micronutrient

00:06:57 mod6: i guess it was doing something strange on my end, or maybe debian 6 has something strange it does?

00:06:59 mircea_popescu: it looks more like very major issues with gcc itself.

00:07:01 asciilifeform: one without which a decent compiler is quite impossible.

00:07:35 *: mod6 reads scroll back

00:07:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the issues cut deeper than gcc. we are dealing with what ilkka kokkarinen called 'unprincipled exception', where something is allowed to stay broken because fixing it would break 10,000 other things.

00:07:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why i'd kinda like to get to the bottom of this.

00:08:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform unprincipled exceptions are fine IF DOCUMENTED

00:08:21 mircea_popescu: the undocumented unprincipled exception is something entirely different.

00:08:26 asciilifeform: it is also possible that i am somehow mistaken about all of this

00:08:32 mircea_popescu: sure.

00:09:10 mircea_popescu: the only way to find out is to hammer the things that worked until we know why the fuck they worked.

00:09:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, ever published the recipe to obtain that "statically linked is not statically linked" error ?

00:09:34 asciilifeform: but regardless, i have at least two dozen proggies on this here box that -have- to be built with gcc x.y.z or else

00:09:47 asciilifeform: it is nothing new to the veteran turd-shoveler.

00:10:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the recipe consists of attempting to build it on either of my boxes after patched to fix the integer thing

00:10:20 mircea_popescu: people derping about how "bitcoin will fail because tis or that" are such fucking idiots, incidentally. COMPUTING NEVER WORKED.

00:10:24 mircea_popescu: if that were the criteria...

00:10:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the peculiarities of said boxes ?

00:10:46 *: asciilifeform cranks out patch

00:10:46 mircea_popescu: how would someone reproduce it ?

00:10:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: posted earlier in thread

00:10:57 mircea_popescu: aok

00:10:58 asciilifeform: about to post more detail

00:11:01 mircea_popescu: k

00:11:49 mod6: <+ascii_field> has any of you lot checked to see that the executable resulting from this build ACTUALL contains the openssl built by auto.sh ? << i never did, this could be a problem too

00:12:00 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-04-2015#1083026 << is this something along the lines of "nothing bad can happen to me im a nice person minding my own biznis" ?

00:12:00 assbot: Logged on 01-04-2015 22:26:52; funkenstein_: i don't see this giant

00:12:24 mircea_popescu: mod6 i thought you tested it in vms ?

00:12:28 mircea_popescu: those'd only have one conceivably.

00:12:56 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> the idea is, for someone wanting to copy your environment, to be able to do so with minimal work << i think going forward this is the only thing we'll support/build from/work on, something that we agree is "good"

00:13:32 mircea_popescu: yeah but how deep does it go

00:14:18 NewLiberty: April fools, or no? http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/04/01/yanis-varoufakis-greece-will-adopt-the-bitcoin-if-eurogroup-doesnt-give-us-a-deal/

00:14:19 assbot: Yanis Varoufakis: "Greece to Adopt the Bitcoin If Eurogroup Doesn't Give Us a Deal" | GreekReporter.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1G5NtSo )

00:14:48 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-04-2015#1083060 << yeah there's no mistake there.

00:14:48 assbot: Logged on 01-04-2015 22:37:17; ascii_field: mistook?!

00:15:07 mircea_popescu: NewLiberty never heard of the site, so...

00:15:14 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 i thought you tested it in vms ? << yup. one virtual box deb 6 vm, one aws deb6 AMI and a friend had a separate deb6 ami. my gentoo testing was on gentoo aws AMI also.

00:15:42 mircea_popescu: so it wouldn't have an openssl other than what auto.sh makes

00:15:49 mircea_popescu: unless there's a magic one ?

00:16:10 mod6: i can take a look at mine in xxd, just a moment.

00:16:21 mod6: (the virtualbox one, in particular.)

00:17:05 hanbot: asciilifeform> maybe hanbot can try? gentoo box? << would love to help out, unfortunately i haven't managed to get it working quite yet.

00:17:24 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-04-2015#1083088 << wait, *I* have to balance my budget ?

00:17:24 assbot: Logged on 01-04-2015 22:43:56; ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> we could readily employ thousands. << you and what budget?!

00:17:36 mircea_popescu: fuck that shit, obama is the blessed child of the heavens, can run deficits ?

00:17:41 mircea_popescu: what sort of contest is this ?

00:18:07 mircea_popescu: i am happy to announce that for the fy 2014 serenissima ran a whopping 5798796857967496834% deficit

00:18:11 mircea_popescu: all voluntarily contributed.

00:18:23 mircea_popescu: this is the contemplated policy going forward.

00:20:28 mod6: someone also mentioned that we (the bitcoin foundation) should host the openssl, bdb, and boost libs on our website for dl. i decided against that as i like someone to feel like they're getting a copy from the originator. (this is from yesterday)

00:20:39 mircea_popescu: yeah that someone was me

00:20:46 mod6: so that's why that isthe way it is.

00:20:59 mircea_popescu: the reason i proposed that is because i have no doubt the "originators" will sooner or later run away with the code.

00:21:45 mod6: fair assessment. i thought the same thing at first, and even had all the libs on our site. then started thinking conversely about it.

00:22:05 mod6: we can change that up. that's easy enough.

00:22:07 asciilifeform: jurov!!!!!!!!!!!!!

00:22:09 mircea_popescu: not like people can't pull them from the source.

00:22:09 asciilifeform: it ate it

00:22:10 asciilifeform: motherfucker

00:22:22 mircea_popescu: think of it as a cache or something.

00:22:37 mod6: sure

00:24:05 asciilifeform: and then i put it in a tarball and signed

00:24:09 asciilifeform: and STILL ATE IT

00:24:12 asciilifeform: jurov!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

00:24:49 jurov: asciilifeform sigh. it expects a clearsigned text, not just attachments with detached sigs

00:25:08 asciilifeform: i thought signed text can replace body

00:25:19 asciilifeform: (NO I WILL NOT manually trim the line lengths of the compiler barf.)

00:25:31 asciilifeform: and i don't -want- them trimmed

00:25:39 asciilifeform: i want that thing to display as it would from my fucking disk.

00:26:31 jurov: no that's fine, just put short clearsigned comment what are the other attachments about

00:35:46 mod6: fuck

00:35:55 mod6: so i dunno, but this doensn't look right: http://dpaste.com/1HRAZ5V.txt

00:35:56 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CyRtai )

00:37:16 mod6: my deb machine was installed in december, but maybe the system wide OpenSSL 1.0.1g was upgraded in feb. The version the system wide gives me is April 7 2014. The xxd output looks like its indicating the one from the system.

00:37:28 mod6: *sigh*

00:37:29 mod6: brb

00:43:04 mircea_popescu: !s devil pay love him

00:43:05 assbot: 2 results for 'devil pay love him' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=devil+pay+love+him

00:43:52 mircea_popescu: mothefucker. the two results lead to... referneces, without actual link, of the original.

00:43:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform happen to recall original ?

00:46:56 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/pushing-the-soft-tender-flesh-of-a-friend-against-the-sharp-rotating-blades-of-the-immutable-machine/ found for later.

00:46:57 assbot: Pushing the soft tender flesh of a friend against the sharp rotating blades of the immutable machine. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DqoKb6 )

00:48:01 mod6: so if that's not working as expected, I (we) need help getting the makefile in order so that it does this correctly & the auto.sh script if that's part of the problem also.

00:48:18 mod6: obviously, i don't have a clue as to what's going on there.

00:51:58 ben_vulpes: mod6: how does that dpaste indicate the system ssl?

00:52:07 ben_vulpes: i don't know how to read xxd output at all

00:52:50 mod6: 'OpenSSL 1.0.1g 7' << is probably referring to the output seen here: OpenSSL 1.0.1g 7 Apr 2014

00:52:55 mod6: I don't know for sure though.

00:53:10 mod6: alf might know. i bet it's the wrong goddamn one

00:56:19 ben_vulpes: isn't that the release date of 1.0.1g?

00:56:21 ben_vulpes: https://www.openssl.org/source/old/1.0.1/

00:56:22 assbot: OpenSSL: Old 1.0.1 Releases ... ( http://bit.ly/1CyUS8S )

00:56:49 ben_vulpes: the version of openssl you and alf found to not wedge bitcoind?

00:57:46 mod6: my hunch is that this is not working as expected. I need alf to verify for me.

00:58:03 mod6: or help me verify

00:58:15 asciilifeform: jurov: can delete 2nd post, it is redundant

00:59:40 asciilifeform: or zap it all, i'll resend in a sec

01:00:56 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-April/000080.html

01:00:56 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DqpJIo )

01:00:58 asciilifeform: ^ finally.

01:01:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al ^

01:02:08 mod6: asciilifeform: is there a definitive way to check the binary for which SSL is linked in?

01:03:09 asciilifeform: mod6: readelf

01:03:31 asciilifeform: readelf -a bitcoind | grep -i ssl

01:03:33 asciilifeform: but!

01:03:38 asciilifeform: i think this only works for DYNAMIC

01:03:45 asciilifeform: cannot possibly work for static build.

01:03:51 asciilifeform: which is one of the penalties for going static

01:03:56 mod6: did you see my paste?

01:04:21 asciilifeform: the only way to know what's in a static build is a disassembler, a stead hand, a thermos of coffee, and some familiarity with the constituent parts

01:04:26 asciilifeform: *steady hand

01:05:07 mod6: yeah i get nothing from these: root@debian-test:~/release-test/bitcoin-v0_5_3_1/bitcoin/src# readelf -a bitcoind | grep -i ssl

01:05:10 mod6: root@debian-test:~/release-test/bitcoin-v0_5_3_1/bitcoin/src# readelf -a bitcoind | grep -i SSL

01:05:15 asciilifeform: and you won't.

01:05:20 asciilifeform: because - elementarily - static.

01:05:24 asciilifeform: that means it's all ground beef.

01:05:25 mod6: ok got it.

01:05:36 mod6: so need to run in gdb and disassemble.

01:05:37 asciilifeform: try turning debug symbols back on

01:05:47 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> which is one of the penalties for going static << The most important part of a turkey sandwich is the ham

01:05:48 asciilifeform: then might get something from the DWARF data.

01:06:25 mod6: next part here... in your email, it seems that you apply your patch "asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation.patch", and this doesnt seem to completely solve it...

01:06:34 mod6: there is another error beyond that one??

01:06:43 asciilifeform: read whole thing plz

01:07:33 asciilifeform: after the words 'Let's try that build again:'

01:08:06 mod6: yeah,it's weird. it seemed to puke on this:

01:08:06 mod6: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.8.3/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: cannot find -lssl

01:08:09 mod6: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.8.3/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: cannot find -lcrypto

01:10:23 decimation: ^ openssl failed to build/install

01:11:14 asciilifeform: it built

01:11:20 asciilifeform: this is the static build, remember!

01:11:22 asciilifeform: it built.

01:11:28 asciilifeform: and is exactly where it was supposed to go.

01:11:36 asciilifeform: this is the auto.sh build.

01:11:36 decimation: that's a good point, why is ld complaining

01:12:09 asciilifeform: or hm, no it isn't.

01:12:10 asciilifeform: lol

01:13:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not retarded having a manifest with it dood.

01:13:22 asciilifeform: missed this because the dir was there, and with some contents

01:13:25 asciilifeform: but not the whole thing.

01:13:31 decimation: dynamic libraries are the depressing result of the c-machine's sad attempt to have a global namespace

01:13:37 asciilifeform: decimation has it

01:14:12 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> cannot possibly work for static build. << this.

01:14:50 mircea_popescu: the only reasonable way to go forward at this point would be a) edit the source of the ssl we intend to use to include a magic string ; b) make ; c) strings on the binary.

01:14:58 asciilifeform: or turn debug on.

01:15:03 asciilifeform: then objdump.

01:15:17 mircea_popescu: im not sure i'd trust it. hey, if gcc is dubious ?

01:15:45 asciilifeform: cms.pod around line 457: Expected text after =item, not a number

01:15:45 asciilifeform: cms.pod around line 461: Expected text after =item, not a number

01:15:45 asciilifeform: cms.pod around line 465: Expected text after =item, not a number

01:15:45 asciilifeform: cms.pod around line 470: Expected text after =item, not a number

01:15:45 asciilifeform: cms.pod around line 474: Expected text after =item, not a number

01:15:46 asciilifeform: POD document had syntax errors at /usr/bin/pod2man line 71.

01:15:48 asciilifeform: Makefile:640: recipe for target 'install_docs' failed

01:15:50 asciilifeform: make: *** [install_docs] Error 1

01:15:52 asciilifeform: ^ how openssl dies.

01:15:52 mircea_popescu: in general this is the golden pill to defeat "general purpose" poisoned compiler, that auto-pulls the magic diddled dependency : put a x = "hash" in the code, compile, see if it included it.

01:16:05 asciilifeform: note that it died a mostly silent death, buried beneath a torrent of barf from other compiles

01:16:10 asciilifeform: and auto.sh did not notice.

01:16:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ultimately we audit the bins

01:16:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is no escape from this.

01:16:47 mircea_popescu: "/home/stas/bitcoin-v0_5_3_1/ourlibs/include/boost/asio/detail/impl/socket_ops.ipp:2900: warning: Using 'getaddrinfo' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking"

01:16:57 mircea_popescu: this is seriously a bigger deal than whatever obama fucking derped today.

01:16:58 decimation: that's a common bug

01:17:00 asciilifeform: (i sorta do this for a living. but no one should take only my word for things.)

01:17:09 mircea_popescu: decimation tell ?

01:17:33 *: asciilifeform off to pet pet, bbl

01:17:36 decimation: if I recall the getaddrinfo calls up the resolv.conf apparatus

01:18:00 decimation: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2725255/create-statically-linked-binary-that-uses-getaddrinfo <glibc uses libnss to support a number of different providers for address resolution services. Unfortunately, you cannot statically link libnss, as exactly what providers it loads depends on the local system's configuration.

01:18:01 assbot: c - Create statically-linked binary that uses getaddrinfo? - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1CyYzvl )

01:18:21 decimation: ie it loads 'binary plugins' by design

01:18:23 mircea_popescu: so basically the problem there is that it says it's static but links dynamically ?

01:18:59 decimation: I gather the warning means that it will probably work on the system on which it is built but if you move it to a different system (the binary) you might not be able to resolve dns properly

01:19:15 mircea_popescu: fucking dns.

01:19:42 decimation: yes, the traditional glibc/dns client shit is quite turdly

01:20:04 decimation: but apparently nobody gives a shit, like the open ntp ddos amplifiers

01:21:15 mircea_popescu: which then inspires idiocy in stuff like wordpress. "hey, open ddos amplification is industry standard!!11"

01:21:34 decimation: yes, exactly

01:23:25 BingoBoingo: <decimation> but apparently nobody gives a shit, like the open ntp ddos amplifiers << Software names make this shit weird because there was ntpd which had this problem and openntpd which to my knowledge didn't

01:24:08 decimation: ntpd was a somewhat misguided attempt to turn unix into a 'scientific instrument'

01:24:16 BingoBoingo: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/04/01/how_to_spaff_240_million_by_going_organic/

01:24:16 assbot: Nuclear waste spill: How a pro-organic push sparked $240m blunder • The Register ... ( http://bit.ly/1CyZCLJ )

01:26:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74000 @ 0.00026088 = 19.3051 BTC [+]

01:26:21 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/the-definitive-sovereign/

01:26:35 decimation: lol

01:26:46 decimation: "But enough of such simplicities, let us now turn our attention to the real headscratcher. The source of that drum was Los Alamos, which is largely – but by no means exclusively – a nuclear weapons lab. And we have someone there who apparently preferentially purchases organically. A"

01:27:51 BingoBoingo: Oppenheimer himself was enough of a hippy to go on the "bad" list

01:53:40 ben_vulpes: so what *is* the #b-a sanctioned os?

01:55:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41002 @ 0.00026089 = 10.697 BTC [+] {2}

01:55:57 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: without a full deturding of a stack there likely can not be a single one blessed OS

01:56:49 ben_vulpes: at the end of the day, man must compute

01:57:12 decimation: ben_vulpes: I use rhel because I know it

01:57:18 decimation: but rhel 7 may end that

01:57:34 ben_vulpes: how did you come to rhel?

01:57:56 decimation: it was used in my day job, became a habit

01:58:41 decimation: although I agree with folks who assert that redhat is gov't influenced, I also think that there is something to the idea of freezing a baseline and keeping it stable

02:00:00 BingoBoingo: OpenBSD has been nice to me, but weird compared to linux and as a point that displeases MP poor fundraiser Bob Beck is in their WoT

02:00:28 decimation: my issue with openbsd is relatively poor hardware support

02:00:33 decimation: but that's a function of their focus

02:01:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 291751 @ 0.00025271 = 73.7284 BTC [-] {3}

02:01:47 BingoBoingo: I had to replace the wifi card in this machine at a cost of $25, but that was not a dealbreaker. It's the other weird that prevents wholesale recommendation. It to asciilifeform's disappoint lacks an Ada

02:02:57 asciilifeform: wat

02:03:03 asciilifeform: what machine

02:03:10 decimation: why can't you build gcc/gnat?

02:03:17 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: daily work beast

02:03:28 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo's ?

02:03:29 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: OpenBSD does not have a working ada in its ports that I could discover

02:03:44 ben_vulpes: nvm i think i'm off-thread

02:03:54 BingoBoingo: If I want to revert to Nigbuntu or a linux, Sure I can get an Ada.

02:03:57 decimation: ben_vulpes: what linux/unix are you most familiar with?

02:04:13 ben_vulpes: "os x"

02:04:20 decimation: heh

02:04:21 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it has gcc. build with ada included in --enable-languages

02:04:22 ben_vulpes: feelsbad.png

02:04:36 asciilifeform: this should also work on crapple

02:04:38 decimation: I made a bug report on macports recently, was told to fix myself

02:04:43 asciilifeform: (assuming ordinary gcc still builds there!)

02:04:51 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'll add that on the 5.7 release to do list

02:05:11 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: not related to what we were doing though...

02:05:13 asciilifeform: or to openbsd

02:05:13 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (assuming ordinary gcc still builds there!) << It seems they use a... modified GCC

02:05:14 decimation: I'm sure you can get ada working on osx but it's not as simple as 'port install gnat'

02:05:27 asciilifeform: (when i do the thing that requires the ada, it won't be happening on openbsd. or gentoo)

02:05:43 decimation: asciilifeform: buildroot?

02:05:47 asciilifeform: no

02:05:50 asciilifeform: iron.

02:05:54 decimation: actually some folks have tried to build ada kernel

02:06:10 decimation: as in no os?

02:06:22 asciilifeform: aha

02:06:26 asciilifeform: this is easier than it sounds

02:06:32 *: BingoBoingo was going to pick up an UltraSparc box this month, but the Chimp in Chief has forced a revision of all my budget priorities

02:06:33 asciilifeform: because ada spec -includes a scheduler-

02:06:36 decimation: yeah, basically single main() loop

02:06:45 asciilifeform: not same as a naked main() in c

02:06:49 decimation: that's nice

02:06:49 asciilifeform: you get civilization.

02:06:52 asciilifeform: the comforts of home.

02:07:10 ben_vulpes: heh.

02:07:10 asciilifeform: ;;google ada ravenscar

02:07:11 gribble: Ravenscar profile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenscar_profile; Guide for the use of the Ada Ravenscar Profile in high ... - SIGAda: http://www.sigada.org/ada_letters/jun2004/ravenscar_article.pdf; The SPARK Ravenscar Profile - AdaCore: http://docs.adacore.com/sparkdocs-docs/Examiner_Ravenscar.htm

02:07:22 asciilifeform: ^ all the detail you could ever wish for.

02:08:22 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: is your medium-term goal to cross compile bitcoind with buildroot?

02:08:30 ben_vulpes: forgive my *staggering* thickness

02:08:37 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha

02:08:43 ben_vulpes: (is it in the set of whatever whatever)

02:08:49 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: but you are running ahead of the class even here.

02:09:02 asciilifeform: i actually sat down that time to properly fix the bastard blocks thing

02:09:09 ben_vulpes: my hero!

02:09:14 asciilifeform: wanted to build an instrumented version of bitcoind for this

02:09:17 asciilifeform: on ordinary machine.

02:09:25 asciilifeform: with nothing fancy or crosscompilatory whatsoever.

02:09:31 asciilifeform: and ended here.

02:09:57 ben_vulpes: putting bitcoind on pogo.

02:09:59 asciilifeform: i realize that i could do this just as well with my old traditional build.

02:09:59 ben_vulpes: somehow.

02:10:08 asciilifeform: but there is a Release !

02:10:17 asciilifeform: and wanted my patches, when any, to diff -from it-

02:10:21 asciilifeform: not from the old crap

02:10:33 asciilifeform: because that's sorta what releases are for

02:10:38 ben_vulpes: what version was your "old crap"?

02:10:54 asciilifeform: included all the patches but the static-build stuff

02:11:12 asciilifeform: well, all the accepted patches plus my unaccepted integer fix patch (not today's, but the earlier one in portatron)

02:12:57 ben_vulpes: which was the integer patch again?

02:13:29 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150128/asciilifeform-porta-tronic_67d6162e1cc78b3a6aca584e2123e59fdee189f6.patch

02:13:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1COjCvm )

02:13:31 asciilifeform: that one

02:14:10 decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.brendangregg.com/linuxperf.html < You can kinda run 'dtrace' on linux with his scripts

02:14:11 assbot: Linux Performance ... ( http://bit.ly/1I6gHkT )

02:14:39 asciilifeform: the ancestral 'strace' works for me

02:14:48 decimation: yeah that's the lion's share of it

02:14:59 asciilifeform: but we're talking about a b0rk3d -build-

02:15:01 asciilifeform: not run.

02:15:04 decimation: ah

02:17:23 asciilifeform: incidentally, my own portatronic build did not work without this patch.

02:18:46 asciilifeform: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/security-openssl-build-failure.41478

02:18:48 assbot: security/openssl build failure | The FreeBSD Forums ... ( http://bit.ly/19LHFzl )

02:18:49 asciilifeform: Motherfuckers.

02:19:21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu check it out ^

02:20:39 *: BingoBoingo naive, insufficiently initiated here, but how does build with libressl portable 2.0 or later on a linux?

02:21:00 mod6: it probably does not

02:21:10 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i have not tried it

02:21:24 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but recall the thread where mircea_popescu demanded mathematical proof.

02:21:30 decimation: I remember fixing that by turning off docs

02:21:41 ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: i recently got an itch to try that myself

02:21:46 asciilifeform: aha so now we have a local fork of openssl ?

02:21:50 asciilifeform: who wants to maintain it ?

02:22:05 ben_vulpes: join the glorious open source archaelogy project of #bitcoin-assets

02:22:17 ben_vulpes: "does the sub fly if i tape this jet engine to it?"

02:22:19 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=26-02-2015#1034840

02:22:19 assbot: Logged on 26-02-2015 21:33:29; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform stuck with math proven equivalence.

02:22:25 BingoBoingo: I suggest this not as a solution to the OpenSSL turdation and version hell, but as a way to identify which parts of OpenSSL turdify unforgivably

02:22:54 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it is, to use my technical term, a spittoon.

02:22:58 asciilifeform: !s spittoon

02:22:59 assbot: 24 results for 'spittoon' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=spittoon

02:23:23 decimation: If you look at how redhat 'maintains' a baseline of code, you find that they pile up patches as shit breaks

02:23:37 *: BingoBoingo only gave chewing tobacco 3 weeks as a habit before returning to smoked tobacco

02:23:42 asciilifeform: decimation: the patches reliably break, in their turn, other things

02:23:54 decimation: indeed, which require more patches

02:24:08 decimation: this kinda 'works' when you are trying to keep a somewhat frozen baseline

02:24:17 decimation: not so much if you want to add any features

02:24:21 asciilifeform: which is why that human turd jon callas kept going on and on about how 'real security patches, even against user's will, because updates are the most important thing in security'

02:24:41 asciilifeform: this is 'the hole through which the night walks in', to borrow a mircea_popescuism

02:24:57 decimation: ^ real security is designed without bugs

02:25:02 asciilifeform: aha.

02:25:11 asciilifeform: and is meta-designed to make this thinkable and practical.

02:25:21 decimation: but as long as 'we' are maintaining someone else's code it's pretty much inevitible to fall into the hole

02:25:29 asciilifeform: we never got out of it

02:25:32 asciilifeform: were always in the hole.

02:25:37 decimation: indeed.

02:28:44 decimation: related > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/saag/current/msg02142.html

02:28:45 assbot: Re: [saag] Algorithms/modes requested by users/customers ... ( http://bit.ly/19LIN65 )

02:30:23 decimation: "Compare this to the example I gave earlier of performing a TLS exchange with Amazon. This performs an in-depth test of all the crypto algorithms (corresponding to the FIPS algorithm tests, including ones that FIPS ignores), and the crypto mechanisms (many/most of which FIPS again ignores). In other words simply by connecting to Amazon using TLS and ordering a "Scrubs" DVD for

02:30:24 decimation: $19.95 I'm getting more comprehensive algorithm testing than I can for a five-figure sum with the FIPS algorithm tests."

02:30:53 asciilifeform: the tests are a chump tax charged on folks peddling turdware to usg and friends

02:31:06 decimation: aye, because usg 'requires' it

02:31:21 asciilifeform: exceptions free for the asking for 'favourite sons' of course

02:31:37 asciilifeform: you will never hear of northrop or lockheed losing a contract from failing to pass 'fips' etc

02:32:05 asciilifeform: see the case of the 'drone' pinched in iran, which was gps-spoofable because crypto was omitted entirely

02:32:26 asciilifeform: which 'fips' did -it- pass.

02:32:49 decimation: lol even apple plays the game http://www.zdnet.com/article/ios-6-granted-fips-140-2-approved-for-u-s-government-use/

02:32:51 assbot: iOS 6 granted FIPS 140-2, approved for U.S. government use | ZDNet ... ( http://bit.ly/19LJ8Wl )

02:32:58 asciilifeform: of course it plays

02:33:00 asciilifeform: being a dept of usg

02:33:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 133000 @ 0.0002609 = 34.6997 BTC [+]

02:33:17 decimation: "U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), a division of U.S. Homeland Security, said it would pull the plug on its 17,600 employee BlackBerrys and favor iPhones instead. The deal, according to a "solicitation" document, would be worth $2.1 million — to the U.S. taxpayer, at least."

02:33:29 asciilifeform: (there is no private industry, in the traditional sense, in usg-dom. nothing larger than a hotdog stand, certainly.)

02:33:48 ben_vulpes: oh, humbug.

02:33:59 ben_vulpes: maybe not where you live.

02:34:05 decimation: asciilifeform: usg buys everything on the 'friends&family' plan

02:34:06 asciilifeform: nowhere.

02:34:18 asciilifeform: see tlp's piece.

02:34:25 asciilifeform: say ben_vulpes sells aluminum siding. by the gigatonne.

02:34:29 asciilifeform: private?

02:34:34 asciilifeform: but then look - who buys it? with what ?

02:34:38 asciilifeform: and for what.

02:35:11 ben_vulpes: i dunno man, new relic isn't terrifically dependent on government purchases.

02:35:19 ben_vulpes: salesforce either.

02:35:26 BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> maybe not where you live. << You may know there where, but not the how to look

02:35:27 asciilifeform: is mickey-d usg ?

02:35:40 asciilifeform: no one who walks in, likely is usg. certainly not official procurer

02:35:47 asciilifeform: but where do the clientele get their dough ?

02:36:03 ben_vulpes: "everything comes from the government" my arse

02:36:12 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: take jupiter.

02:36:21 ben_vulpes: what now?

02:36:27 asciilifeform: while not everything in the solar system 'comes from jupiter' - he has a say in what happens.

02:36:38 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> is mickey-d usg ? << When I worked there after Library school frozen meat cam in boxes labeled Cargill, member of Carlisle group, indicted somewhat in Farenheit-911

02:36:43 asciilifeform: and nothing can be meaningfully described without him.

02:37:10 ben_vulpes: modern fascist state permutation of all aspects of life.

02:37:14 asciilifeform: aha

02:37:32 BingoBoingo: "National Socialism"(TM)

02:37:44 ben_vulpes: plenty happens beyond its domain. its domain, as was the french, is vastly less broad and strong than it thinks.

02:38:47 decimation: 'the mountains are high and the emperor is far away'

02:39:04 asciilifeform: ^ pre-telegraph - was true

02:39:12 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Perhaps re-read http://cryptome.org/2015/03/snowden-cia-fraud.htm though beast has a dissciative mental disorder and this brave soul reporting suffers isolation the thread doesn't tear

02:39:12 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/19LJT1u )

02:41:26 BingoBoingo: <decimation> asciilifeform: usg buys everything on the 'friends&family' plan << And no one knows how tenous their connection is as Force, Carl Mark IV can likely attest

02:41:34 asciilifeform: <ben_vulpes> salesforce either << usg is not the post office. usg is precisely the folks who perpetrate things such as 'salesforce.'

02:41:40 decimation: BingoBoingo: "Among the purposes of 'Snowden' - who never 'stole' any documents - is to increase the sense of terrorism and blackmail among governments; " < to believe this is to travel through the looking-glass

02:41:50 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: aha!

02:43:02 BingoBoingo: decimation: I have never seen pills colored #FF000 nor #0000FF even when observing pharmacy school slide decks for two years

02:45:06 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083462 << there you go mr budget :D

02:45:06 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 01:26:21; scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/the-definitive-sovereign/

02:45:44 BingoBoingo: decimation: Snowden is not a person with Agency, yet he has handlers who are Agents.

02:45:46 decimation: mircea_popescu: note that china knows how this game works; is taking 'possession' of the south china sea

02:45:48 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083475 << really a minor point.

02:45:48 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 02:00:00; BingoBoingo: OpenBSD has been nice to me, but weird compared to linux and as a point that displeases MP poor fundraiser Bob Beck is in their WoT

02:46:18 mircea_popescu: decimation im very much left wondering by asciilifeform's ideas about china. i dunno that it's in any sense comensal with the us.

02:46:25 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin above MtGox $266 high 2 years on" http://bitbet.us/bet/1126/ Odds: 36(Y):64(N) by coin, 63(Y):37(N) by weight. Total bet: 9.38145505 BTC. Current weight: 16,797.

02:48:32 decimation: well, china has a relatively small core of 'managers', usg is really a headless beast

02:49:21 mircea_popescu: (commensal = eating at same table)

02:51:02 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I know openbsd has a plan for governance post-Theo. The exact plans are opaque to me. It would be abberant for Beck to naturally outlive Theo, but... known unknown

02:51:17 nubbins`: hi

02:51:54 mircea_popescu: no u

02:57:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "I can verify that downgrading to Perl 5.16 works." uh ?!

03:01:01 nubbins`: asciilifeform haven't peeked at your latest mail yet, but applying the portatronic patch turns my uint32_t error into an int64_t error

03:01:11 nubbins`: but there's another error right before that, almost missed it.

03:01:16 nubbins`: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=yG2UrE1k

03:01:17 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/19LMatO )

03:01:28 nubbins`: bitcoinrpc.cpp:1761:30: error: expected primary-expression before ‘(’ token

03:02:02 BingoBoingo: Twitter was very sad today https://twitter.com/KenRoth/status/583117607777243136

03:02:04 assbot: It turns out the photo of 4-year-old Syrian girl surrendering to a camera is real, not faked. http://t.co/7Vw3MoGWGN http://t.co/RsiQhJWDPS

03:02:49 *: BingoBoingo waits for Vatican to invade Damascus

03:03:24 nubbins`: rename it davatican

03:04:17 mircea_popescu: lmao

03:04:42 nubbins`: here all night.

03:05:07 nubbins`: but really though, the closest stable gcc version to mod6's 4.4.5 that portage still carries is 4.4.7

03:05:14 nubbins`: i'm gonna give that a shit

03:05:33 BingoBoingo: Also here apparently is what BuzzDave is up to atm, would rewrite but drinking my drink before crisis budget hits tommorrow. http://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-seeks-details-us-bitcoin-mining/

03:05:33 assbot: Coinbase Seeks 'Invasive' Details on US Bitcoin Mining Operations ... ( http://bit.ly/19LMOaF )

03:05:40 nubbins`: tbh gentoo is the odd one out here, which is curious

03:05:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 148250 @ 0.00025289 = 37.4909 BTC [-]

03:05:48 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083563 << you don't understand : we already ARE stuck with this. want it or not.

03:05:48 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 02:21:46; asciilifeform: aha so now we have a local fork of openssl ?

03:05:58 mircea_popescu: since bitcoin pulled the code AS IT WAS and built a chain on it, the optionsare :

03:06:04 mircea_popescu: fork the chain or maintain the historical copy.

03:06:05 mircea_popescu: thjaty's it.

03:06:37 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo da force gotta know what to steal, right ?

03:06:50 mircea_popescu: usg doing a splendid job of getting the muppets do the "case da joint" work for free.

03:08:33 decimation: ^ french housewives enforced the various 'maximums'

03:08:38 *: BingoBoingo actually affected by MP's deed of the day. lacks assets for USG to steal

03:08:56 BingoBoingo: *minimally effected

03:09:07 asciilifeform: nubbins`: but applying the portatronic patch turns my uint32_t error into an int64_t error << apply the -other- patch. the one from 2hrs ago.

03:09:14 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083580 << it's a leonard cohenism.

03:09:14 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 02:24:41; asciilifeform: this is 'the hole through which the night walks in', to borrow a mircea_popescuism

03:09:15 nubbins`: yeah, just checking that now

03:10:06 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DU-RuR-qO4Y

03:10:07 assbot: Leonard Cohen - Democracy - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1akZOFs )

03:10:49 mircea_popescu: hm... check that out, actually it isn't. he has a "coming through a hole in the air", thing. and there's an excellent "the night comes on. it's very clam. i'd like to imagine my father was wrong..." very powerful verse somewhere else.

03:11:01 mircea_popescu: i guess i contributed the mix. dj mp.

03:11:16 nubbins`: heh

03:11:36 asciilifeform: Coinbase Seeks 'Invasive' Details on US Bitcoin Mining Operations << this is, to use the 'manosphere' term of art, a 'shit test'

03:11:38 mircea_popescu: ... but you don't wanna lie... not to the yo-oung...

03:11:58 asciilifeform: anyone who doesn't send them off to pound sand up arse - has bowed to usg

03:12:12 nubbins`: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkyiu3GZ8eQ

03:12:13 assbot: Leonard Cohen - Love Calls You By Your Name - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1al08E5 )

03:12:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's probably useful in building the lists of who can be dekulakized willingly.

03:13:01 BingoBoingo: I dunno if anyone here other than hanbot will be familiar with BuzzDave's MO, building ASIC mining farm at any budget, whether feeds scamzors or not in the process irrelevant

03:13:07 asciilifeform: list of who doesn't even consider it dekulakization - merely owner coming 'back' to take what is 'his', that he merely let you store in safekeeping for a spell.

03:13:33 asciilifeform: if you built a miner, 'you didn't build that'

03:13:54 mircea_popescu: well... nothing is as strictly relevant to national security as a mining farm, factually speaking.

03:14:09 mircea_popescu: airjets can be made out of imported parts. and are. and they suck. and it doesn't matter.

03:14:32 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has it

03:14:45 asciilifeform: this has more immediate implications than commandeering mere jet factory.

03:14:47 *: BingoBoingo knows of no circumstantial evidence that suggest USG proxy more than exists for BuzzDave.

03:15:06 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo we're talking more "coming years" than "situation atm" here.

03:15:09 decimation: parts of usg would gravely protest other parts of usg minting non-usd

03:15:37 *: BingoBoingo imagines in this instance lizards sacrificing CoinBase cred in swap to offer cred to Dave

03:16:28 mircea_popescu: ". The deal, according to a "solicitation" document, would be worth $2.1 million ? to the U.S. taxpayer, at least." << how to get 20k ipads for 100 bucks each ?

03:17:12 mircea_popescu: decimation this is not going away. the usg's hunger for btc far exceeds its hunger for anything else COMBINED.

03:20:20 decimation: mircea_popescu: perhaps, but to fully realize it usg would have to publicly destroy the dollar bezzle

03:20:27 mircea_popescu: nope.

03:20:42 mircea_popescu: you act from this strange notion of perfect knowledge.

03:20:49 decimation: who is gonna want to be paid in dollars while the fed is hoarding bitcoin

03:20:54 mircea_popescu: everyone ?

03:21:03 mircea_popescu: i don't think you appreciate how stupid people are.

03:21:12 mircea_popescu: who wants to fuck with an ipad when there's a perfectly usable desktop ?

03:21:21 decimation: I suppose the same holds roughly true with gold

03:21:22 mircea_popescu: who wants "drm coffee machine" ?

03:21:26 nubbins`: EVERYONE

03:21:28 nubbins`: :D

03:21:36 mircea_popescu: who, pray tell me, eats the shit it eats that it just shat ?

03:21:40 decimation: but the sheer fact of usg's gold's possession 'made' it the reserve currency

03:21:45 mircea_popescu: nope.

03:22:00 mircea_popescu: the sheer fact of the b-a of the time made it. the usg follows in all dances. never yet lead, never will lead.

03:22:04 mircea_popescu: once those went away... well...

03:22:31 mircea_popescu: and as "we" have agreed bitcoin is what it is, well...

03:23:16 decimation: the 'headless beast' is hard to kill but easy to misguide

03:24:53 mircea_popescu: what are you going to kill lol, bilge water ?

03:25:23 mircea_popescu: "i am arthur son of uther pendragon, defeater of the molds, killer of the bilge water!"

03:25:29 asciilifeform: more like ants.

03:25:38 nubbins`: asciilifeform http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xT8ezS6b

03:25:39 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1al2ymg )

03:25:41 asciilifeform: who hasn't killed an ant colony

03:25:44 mircea_popescu: im off ! laters.

03:25:57 asciilifeform: nubbins`: there we go

03:26:05 decimation: one could imagine killing an ant colony, but not all ants on a continent

03:26:11 asciilifeform: as decimation helpfully pointed out ~1hr ago, ssl didn't build

03:26:14 asciilifeform: see log as to why.

03:26:39 decimation: asciilifeform: one wonders what the openssl authors use as a 'baseline os'

03:26:58 nubbins`: "glibc uses libnss to support a number of different providers for address resolution services. Unfortunately, you cannot statically link libnss, as exactly what providers it loads depends on the local system's configuration."

03:27:03 asciilifeform: decimation: probably winblows

03:27:21 asciilifeform: when you scratch the surface, you always find some imbecile who develops on winblows, and then asks 'whatchalookingat'

03:27:23 decimation: nubbins`: no that's a different issue, not critical

03:27:26 asciilifeform: 'doesn't everyone?'

03:27:36 decimation: heh yeah 'mingw'

03:27:43 decimation: 'I really like visual c++'

03:27:50 asciilifeform: nubbins`: this was after my (today's) patch ?

03:27:54 nubbins`: yep

03:27:58 asciilifeform: nubbins`: what do you get without it ?

03:28:28 nubbins`: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=yG2UrE1k

03:28:29 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1al2YJn )

03:28:43 nubbins`: i'm in lockstep with you, seems

03:28:51 asciilifeform: nubbins`: wait

03:28:57 asciilifeform: that's without -any- patches of mine?

03:28:59 nubbins`: no

03:29:04 nubbins`: with the portatronic patch.

03:29:06 asciilifeform: aha.

03:29:10 asciilifeform: ok so nubbins` has what i have.

03:29:21 *: nubbins` coughs, scratches arm

03:29:29 nubbins`: it's real bad, man

03:29:30 asciilifeform: l0l

03:31:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 209550 @ 0.0002609 = 54.6716 BTC [+]

03:31:13 BingoBoingo: This is BingoBoingo and welcome to day one of Axe time

03:31:17 decimation: asciilifeform: it strikes me that a handy product would be a little ada microcontroller with an implementation of rsa

03:31:47 asciilifeform: decimation: afaik there were never dedicated ada silicon

03:31:58 asciilifeform: though it would have made sense (bounds checking, etc. a la lisp machine)

03:32:24 asciilifeform: ada, like lisp, is not a language. it is merely a kind of void left by removing retardation.

03:34:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu:fork the chain or maintain the historical copy. << third option: make new apparatus, prove idempotence.

03:34:49 *: BingoBoingo unsure how to handle axe time behind enemy lines

03:34:55 decimation: well, the point is that a fairly rigorous device could be made

03:35:06 decimation: and I suggest that key material is loaded with: paper card

03:35:19 asciilifeform: decimation: i did suggest paper card at one point.

03:35:41 decimation: yeah I think I recall. like the 'Fialka' machine http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/card.htm

03:35:42 assbot: Fialka ... ( http://bit.ly/1al47jU )

03:35:53 asciilifeform: like every '40s machine.

03:36:09 asciilifeform: and even '80s in many cases (u.s. naval crypto used paper cards until '90 or so)

03:36:53 decimation: easily human inspection AND comparison

03:36:59 asciilifeform: of keys.

03:37:04 decimation: yes.

03:37:25 decimation: the trouble is getting enough 'holes' on a reasonable size paper

03:43:15 decimation: the "fialka" grid is only 30x30

03:45:02 BingoBoingo: If this is what axe time is like /me wonders about sword time survivability

03:46:01 asciilifeform: 'Warning: never connect this 3-pin male plug (24V DC) to the 3-pin female plug (230V AC) of the mains cable. Due to bad design, it fits perfectly, but supplies the mains voltage to the 24V input of the cipher machine, causing permanent damage to the cipher machine. Be warned!' << l0l

03:46:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu must have been thinking of this machine the other day.

03:46:14 decimation: heh

03:49:14 decimation: heh it's not a particularly fancy circuit

03:49:15 decimation: the psu

03:49:25 asciilifeform: check out the 'tempest' psu.

03:49:46 asciilifeform: http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/psu/tempest.htm

03:49:47 assbot: PSU ... ( http://bit.ly/1al6TG5 )

03:50:23 decimation: ah yeah that's more useful

03:50:35 asciilifeform: funny how they gave a damn re: tempest on a fucking ROTOR CRYPTO MACHINE

03:50:43 decimation: heh

03:50:45 asciilifeform: crackable in about thirty seconds on 'commodore 64'

03:51:17 asciilifeform: and why, precisely, does it need the digital output ?

03:51:21 asciilifeform: in the -power supply-

03:51:22 asciilifeform: wtf.

03:51:47 asciilifeform: i can see this being given to unreliable warsaw pact nations to -amplify- their tempest emanations

03:52:17 decimation: simply swap the right parts...

03:52:28 asciilifeform: 'Although it may seem unnecessary, the data socket (marked МАШИНА II) must be connected, as otherwise the machine will not work. This is done to ensure the use of the TEMPEST feature (see below). ' << seems to imply that it was a straight pass-through

03:52:34 asciilifeform: to force dumb orcs to use it

03:52:42 asciilifeform: instead of the old-fashioned power supply.

03:53:19 asciilifeform: clever.

03:54:09 asciilifeform: http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/psu/tempest.htm#circuit << tries to prevent differential power analysis

03:54:09 assbot: PSU ... ( http://bit.ly/1al7AiE )

03:54:17 decimation: surely someone in the 'unreliable nation' would have had suspicions

03:54:25 asciilifeform: so 'tempest' is mistake in terminology here

03:54:28 asciilifeform: shame on'em.

03:54:35 asciilifeform: (on 'cryptomuseum')

03:55:19 asciilifeform: i see now that it was not a pass-through

03:55:28 asciilifeform: you actually need this to retrofit constant-power

03:56:27 decimation: "The value of the dummy-load resistors is choosen carefully, so that they the circuit draws the same current as the solenoids. As a result, the PSU will not only supply a constant voltage, but will also consume a constant current" < this seems dubious on production units

03:56:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87700 @ 0.00026091 = 22.8818 BTC [+] {2}

03:56:45 asciilifeform: decimation: you can see the trimpots

03:56:52 asciilifeform: plausible.

03:56:53 asciilifeform: but,

03:56:57 asciilifeform: 'In some of the circuits, 2TC613 ICs are used [1]. Each of these ICs contains four transistors, They belong to one of the first generations of Russian ICs.' << another howler

03:57:05 asciilifeform: that is -not- an integrated circuit in the modern sense!

03:57:22 decimation: was that one of your 'tiny pcbs in a tin'?

03:57:34 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-02-2015#1023292

03:57:34 assbot: Logged on 18-02-2015 06:16:02; asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: before i fall asleep, i remembered to tell, that there actually were 'integrated circuits' in ussr that were built in the way you suggest

03:57:37 asciilifeform: them.

03:58:11 decimation: I like the 30 mil traces

03:58:38 asciilifeform: they didn't solder by machine, aha.

03:58:53 decimation: plus had to drive solenoids

03:59:07 asciilifeform: having a printed circuit in this machine at all was 'high tech'

03:59:45 asciilifeform: incidentally,

04:00:04 asciilifeform: i can hardly imagine the circuit fooling anything but the most dull power analysis device

04:00:21 asciilifeform: considering that solenoid is an inductive load, and resistor is - well - resistive.

04:00:33 asciilifeform: (resistor - no effect on phase)

04:00:37 asciilifeform: think about it.

04:00:57 decimation: heh yeah there's gonna be 'clicks'

04:00:59 asciilifeform: i am inclined to believe that something is missing from the schematic.

04:01:05 asciilifeform: (why? ask him not me)

04:01:15 decimation: apparently there was a 'russian-only' version of the machine: http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/m125_3/rus.htm

04:01:15 assbot: M-125-3M ... ( http://bit.ly/1al8QlS )

04:01:25 asciilifeform: of course there was

04:01:28 asciilifeform: how could there not be.

04:04:54 asciilifeform: http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/psu/img/300125/086/full.jpg << mega-l0l. this, internally, and geometrically - is almost identical to my (u.s.-made) ferroresonant stabilizator.

04:04:55 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1al9C2c )

04:05:23 decimation: yeah, bigass 'autotransformer'

04:06:25 asciilifeform: http://imgur.com/zrmHTMR,OzgNDNH#0 << that one

04:06:26 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1al9Y8V )

04:06:36 asciilifeform: not same as autotransformer

04:06:48 asciilifeform: relies purely on energy in magnetic field for 'inertia'

04:08:36 decimation: heh even the russian version is a slightly more advanced 'enigma' machine http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/m125_3/index.htm

04:08:36 assbot: M-125-3 ... ( http://bit.ly/1alarYU )

04:08:49 asciilifeform: all the rotor machines were much alike.

04:09:07 asciilifeform: interestingly, vernam (which we today call 'one time pad') coexisted with all of them

04:09:19 asciilifeform: and to the extent folks used it - correctly - their crypto worked.

04:09:37 asciilifeform: but 'omg11111111111111!1!!11!!11 not convenient!!'

04:09:52 decimation: aye, actual humans must handle keys

04:10:13 nubbins`: asciilifeform do you have libssl.so, libcrypto.so on your system? (/usr/lib64, perhaps?)

04:10:38 asciilifeform: to the extent they did not use it (and swiss 'cryptoag' etc marketed rotors until late '80s!! and possibly now) - usg and its merry men had their fun with the payload.

04:11:03 asciilifeform: nubbins`: sure

04:11:24 nubbins`: are they symlinked to .so.1.0.0 like mine are?

04:11:56 asciilifeform: nubbins`: libssl is

04:12:10 nubbins`: and if you: $ openssl version

04:12:23 asciilifeform: 1.01j

04:12:28 asciilifeform: 1.0.1j

04:12:29 asciilifeform: why ?

04:12:49 asciilifeform: i mean, it didn't get pulled in to the static build

04:12:54 asciilifeform: just as it was meant -not- to

04:12:57 asciilifeform: that part works.

04:13:01 nubbins`: hm k

04:13:14 asciilifeform: the attempted ssl was the one included with auto.sh (release)

04:13:23 asciilifeform: it - did not build.

04:13:26 asciilifeform: (see log)

04:13:35 *: nubbins` sees log

04:13:39 nubbins`: oh ffs

04:13:41 *: nubbins` sees log1

04:17:10 asciilifeform: decimation: http://www.dansdata.com/gz039.htm << re: ferroresonators

04:17:11 assbot: Power struggle ... ( http://bit.ly/1CzuL1B )

04:17:21 asciilifeform: http://www.dansdata.com/images/powerconditioner/lidoff1024.jpg << pretty simple.

04:17:24 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CzuM5M )

04:19:00 decimation: yeah it's kinda the magnetic equivalent of a bigass flywheel

04:20:28 asciilifeform: aha.

04:20:33 asciilifeform: more of gigantic pendulum

04:20:38 asciilifeform: if we want an exact analogy

04:20:39 asciilifeform: but yes.

04:22:26 asciilifeform: http://www.dansdata.com/gz083.htm << unrelated but interesting re: ancient 'copy protection'

04:22:27 assbot: Meet the new DRM, same as the old DRM ... ( http://bit.ly/1CzvMa6 )

04:22:45 asciilifeform: ' Then, after the tape had been professionally rewound, you could rent it again, if you liked.'

04:25:09 decimation: heh

04:25:28 decimation: that actually sounds pretty effective, assuming the listener didn't have a recorder

04:28:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20600 @ 0.00025344 = 5.2209 BTC [-]

04:28:30 decimation: la wik' seems to imply that the "system 3" punch card was the most densely packed card in common use

04:28:32 decimation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/System_3_punch_card.jpg

04:28:34 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Czx0lA )

04:28:40 decimation: ^could hold 64 byte

04:29:23 decimation: you would still need many of those cards to hold a standard gpg key

04:29:38 asciilifeform: evidently not the one featured in the rhyme;

04:30:13 asciilifeform: 'He died at the console, / Of hunger and thirst. / Next day he was buried, Face down, nine-edge first. / And the last bug in sight, / An ant passing by, / Saluted his tombstone, / And whispered, ?Nice try.?'

04:30:25 decimation: heh

04:32:48 decimation: one of the reasons why the "PC" was such a success (as in the commodore, etc) was because many universities had taken to putting their computers behind a locked wall

04:32:55 decimation: with strict controls on access

04:33:53 decimation: obviously 'actual people' were not exactly thrilled with the idea of being treated like criminals while calculating

04:34:15 asciilifeform: instrument which costs $maxint - of course locked.

04:34:29 decimation: so there was a hunger to 'own' said machine

04:34:31 asciilifeform: last i checked, i can't waltz in to my local uni and use their mass spectrometer or nmr

04:34:40 asciilifeform: (i asked)

04:34:40 decimation: yeah, similar idea I guess

04:34:56 decimation: but it was made worse because apparently the hippies of the time took to 'attacking' the machines

04:35:08 decimation: because they were seen as a symbol of 'the man'

04:35:19 asciilifeform: decimation: this was not only for computer.

04:36:00 asciilifeform: decimation: my first paying job was at nih. and found it odd that only select few had the clearance to see where the live animals were

04:36:06 asciilifeform: i was told they were under 24/7 heavily armed guard

04:36:27 asciilifeform: underground, behind a tunnel with multiple doors

04:36:42 asciilifeform: but that this had not always been so, and old-timers remembered when you could keep the cages in the lab

04:36:57 asciilifeform: *i found it odd

04:37:29 decimation: yeah because the hippies want to 'set free'

04:39:58 decimation: socialist dumbfuckery is like pollution, it ruins everything

04:40:29 asciilifeform: complicated.

04:40:36 asciilifeform: what was the alternative for these folks?

04:40:40 asciilifeform: i mean, it sounds odd, to ask

04:40:52 decimation: for who, the 'pro-animal' hippie?

04:41:07 asciilifeform: but what -could- they have been doing, that was equally entertaining as setting rabid chimps free ?

04:41:17 decimation: ah. indeed.

04:41:23 asciilifeform: it was yet another generation asked to eat stale doughnuts

04:41:29 asciilifeform: to borrow mr mold's expression

04:41:37 asciilifeform: so they went apeshit when offered chances.

04:41:44 asciilifeform: because still had balls.

04:42:38 asciilifeform: now, for the man who likes physics, maths, etc - it was golden age.

04:42:43 asciilifeform: for instance!

04:43:01 asciilifeform: contrary to popular image of rms, he was - at the time - the very example of a 'straight lace square'

04:43:21 asciilifeform: playing with the 'big iron' at usg expense.

04:43:34 asciilifeform: clean-shaven, even, iirc.

04:43:53 decimation: yeah, the 60's were definitely a golden age of the hard sciences in the us

04:44:03 decimation: many low-hanging fruits were picked

04:44:14 asciilifeform: it is a mistake, to call them low hanging

04:44:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 213700 @ 0.00024903 = 53.2177 BTC [-] {4}

04:44:24 asciilifeform: they could be put on the tree today and would stay unpicked.

04:44:40 decimation: perhaps. it's hard not to see things taught to undergrads as 'not obvious'

04:44:44 decimation: but it's true that they weren't

04:56:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19300 @ 0.00025344 = 4.8914 BTC [+]

04:57:26 decimation: ;;ticker

04:57:28 gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 246.68, Best ask: 246.75, Bid-ask spread: 0.07000, Last trade: 246.75, 24 hour volume: 22636.38523189, 24 hour low: 239.21, 24 hour high: 248.71, 24 hour vwap: None

05:33:44 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

05:33:48 gribble: Current Blocks: 350334 | Current Difficulty: 4.671754964470642E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 350783 | Next Difficulty In: 449 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 3 hours, 21 minutes, and 23 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 49676319200.2 | Estimated Percent Change: 6.33331

05:38:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 226900 @ 0.00026234 = 59.5249 BTC [+] {4}

05:47:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 194848 @ 0.00026405 = 51.4496 BTC [+]

05:51:35 BingoBoingo: !up bagehot

05:54:03 bagehot: Hey, thanks for the up

06:03:41 bagehot: Why do folks here consider bitcoins tradeable for other goods?

06:03:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 261100 @ 0.00025801 = 67.3664 BTC [-] {2}

06:29:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 192161 @ 0.00026396 = 50.7228 BTC [+] {3}

06:36:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87059 @ 0.00025743 = 22.4116 BTC [-]

06:37:29 []bot: Bet placed: 3.84713728 BTC for No on "Bitcoin above MtGox $266 high 2 years on" http://bitbet.us/bet/1126/ Odds: 26(Y):74(N) by coin, 56(Y):44(N) by weight. Total bet: 13.22859233 BTC. Current weight: 16,339.

06:54:27 BingoBoingo: ;;later tell bagehot Do you know any better money?

06:54:27 gribble: The operation succeeded.

06:56:00 BingoBoingo: Axe time is starting awfully slow, I was expecting more... fluids

07:00:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85750 @ 0.0002513 = 21.549 BTC [-]

07:11:49 BingoBoingo: !up hktud0

07:14:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109200 @ 0.0002513 = 27.442 BTC [-]

07:18:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65950 @ 0.0002513 = 16.5732 BTC [-]

07:23:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67443 @ 0.00025318 = 17.0752 BTC [+]

07:33:55 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker

07:33:56 gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 245.89, Best ask: 245.99, Bid-ask spread: 0.10000, Last trade: 245.78, 24 hour volume: 22946.51481821, 24 hour low: 239.21, 24 hour high: 248.71, 24 hour vwap: None

07:34:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 246950 @ 0.00024837 = 61.335 BTC [-] {4}

07:34:35 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/the-definitive-sovereign/ < updated, because i can't sleep now, because of this stroke of brilliance.

07:34:36 assbot: The definitive sovereign pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1I6L2Qg )

07:34:42 mircea_popescu: really the similarities are many and varied.

07:37:43 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083737 < nsa.

07:37:43 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 03:26:39; decimation: asciilifeform: one wonders what the openssl authors use as a 'baseline os'

07:37:50 mircea_popescu: it's easy when you're on stupid team.

07:37:57 mircea_popescu: your shit doesn't have to actually work.

07:39:11 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083756 << yeah your hole was, to my grief, readily reproduced.

07:39:11 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 03:29:10; asciilifeform: ok so nubbins` has what i have.

07:39:34 mircea_popescu: once i was done screaming so people could ask questions.

07:40:24 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083766 << this option is not unlike proving you didn't fuck a goat by proving you impregnated it.

07:40:24 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 03:34:34; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu:fork the chain or maintain the historical copy. << third option: make new apparatus, prove idempotence.

07:40:44 mircea_popescu: in that "proof of idempotence" has generally been orders of magnitude more successful at proving the proving party has no idea what proving means,

07:40:50 mircea_popescu: rather than the intended result.

07:42:33 mircea_popescu: also speaking of " dns providers" : http://0pointer.de/lennart/projects/nss-mdns/

07:42:34 assbot: nss-mdns 0.10 ... ( http://bit.ly/1I6LQos )

07:42:53 mircea_popescu: "Please note that due to security reasons from this release on the minimal mDNS stack included in nss-mdns (dubbed "legacy") is no longer built by default. Thus, nss-mdns will not work unless Avahi is running!"

07:45:35 mircea_popescu: also https://www.openhub.net/accounts/mezcalero if anyone's actually that curious.

07:45:36 assbot: Lennart Poettering : Lennart Poettering - Open Hub ... ( http://bit.ly/1I6M6nd )

07:49:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude how did you dig up the fialka thing.

08:08:14 []bot: Bet placed: 2.10372615 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $150 before July" http://bitbet.us/bet/1133/ Odds: 20(Y):80(N) by coin, 21(Y):79(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.08572615 BTC. Current weight: 95,148.

08:12:51 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $35 before June " http://bitbet.us/bet/1129/ Odds: 10(Y):90(N) by coin, 12(Y):88(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.8656096 BTC. Current weight: 74,132.

08:21:07 mircea_popescu: http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/psu/img/300125/019/full.jpg gotta love that crazy shit.

08:21:08 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GOkKAG )

08:28:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and speaking of it : http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/psu/img/Tempest.png doesn't look like the exceptionally advanced thing the article promised. seems to me the solenoid-driven switching would create so much echo as to make it readily measurable.

08:28:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GOlIwW )

08:28:22 mircea_popescu: i suppose "works according to what we know how to do" is the one standard of tradecraft.

08:29:08 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083796 << exactly.

08:29:08 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 03:51:47; asciilifeform: i can see this being given to unreliable warsaw pact nations to -amplify- their tempest emanations

08:30:41 BingoBoingo: !up asteric

08:30:58 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083827 i guess i should just read logs lol

08:30:58 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 04:00:21; asciilifeform: considering that solenoid is an inductive load, and resistor is - well - resistive.

08:31:20 mircea_popescu: why the fuck not put in there... some "carefully chosen" solenoids of the right fucking charge.

08:31:30 mircea_popescu: how hard is it to reproduce a coil of wire with... another coil of wire!

08:32:05 *: BingoBoingo did not expect axe time to offer this much lead to work the whetstone before sword time

08:33:39 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083849 << dude what the fuck is so very convenient about all the rotor bs i dunno.

08:33:39 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 04:09:37; asciilifeform: but 'omg11111111111111!1!!11!!11 not convenient!!'

08:47:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78350 @ 0.00024829 = 19.4535 BTC [-]

08:56:01 mircea_popescu: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060558/ << hory sheit!!

08:56:03 assbot: Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter (1966) - IMDb ... ( http://bit.ly/1GOpu9w )

08:56:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 233444 @ 0.00024885 = 58.0925 BTC [+] {2}

09:05:48 mircea_popescu: "To view a downloaded movie, you double-click it. And then you're watching it. Stick a recent commercial DVD into your player, though, and you'll probably have to sit through lengthy, un-skippable warnings about how dastardly is the piracy in which you did not just engage."

09:06:02 mircea_popescu: "if kids continue to not show up for class, the class will continue to get detention!"

09:18:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 127646 @ 0.00025424 = 32.4527 BTC [+] {2}

09:18:59 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083930 << this seems exceedingly likely, especially with stuff like the "oh open source is more secure because million eyes" million examples fresh in memory.

09:18:59 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 04:44:24; asciilifeform: they could be put on the tree today and would stay unpicked.

09:19:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50198 @ 0.00025644 = 12.8728 BTC [+]

09:20:09 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you not getting enough fluid ? :D

09:32:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 204700 @ 0.00024694 = 50.5486 BTC [-] {2}

09:39:45 []bot: Bet placed: 6.10372615 BTC for No on "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $35 before June " http://bitbet.us/bet/1129/ Odds: 7(Y):93(N) by coin, 8(Y):92(N) by weight. Total bet: 18.96933575 BTC. Current weight: 74,045.

09:51:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47665 @ 0.00025118 = 11.9725 BTC [+]

10:05:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 180450 @ 0.00024481 = 44.176 BTC [-] {2}

10:10:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 189800 @ 0.00024445 = 46.3966 BTC [-] {2}

10:18:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54150 @ 0.00025118 = 13.6014 BTC [+]

10:29:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72887 @ 0.00025519 = 18.6 BTC [+] {2}

10:35:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 250947 @ 0.00024327 = 61.0479 BTC [-] {4}

10:36:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46753 @ 0.00024238 = 11.332 BTC [-]

11:16:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46414 @ 0.00024386 = 11.3185 BTC [+]

11:18:58 nubbins`: morn

11:23:58 Apocalyptic: !up neverending

11:26:06 nubbins`: today's auction-end day :o

11:29:19 nubbins`: http://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahjeong/2015/04/01/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-unsealed-silk-road-docket/

11:29:21 assbot: What You Need to Know About the Unsealed Silk Road Docket - Forbes ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAOSN1 )

11:29:32 nubbins`: In April 2014, BitStamp representatives messaged Force, asking him why he was accessing his account through Tor. He responded through the support ticket: “I utilize TOR for privacy. Don’t particularly want NSA looking over my shoulder :)”

11:29:38 nubbins`: BitStamp management found this message to be, well, incredibly weird.

11:29:53 nubbins`: yep. INCREDIBLY WEIRD, this. a guy using tor.

11:38:50 nubbins`: !up menahem

11:39:11 nubbins`: so i get woken up 3:30am last night by the guy next door POUNDING on the wall

11:39:42 nubbins`: after a few minutes of this, my doorbell rings, so i go grab a chunk of wood to cave the guy's face in with

11:39:54 nubbins`: and it's my piece of shit roommate who lost his keys

11:40:22 nubbins`: because, y'know, if you lost your keys three days ago, you should come home drunk to a locked house at 3:30am

11:40:25 nubbins`: with no plan

11:42:16 Adlai: sounds like his plan was "pick a time when nubbins`'s probability density is most concentrated within the home"

11:43:00 nubbins`: or, since i am generally always home, pick a time when any normal person is precisely in the middle of a night's rest

11:43:52 *: nubbins` can't wait to reduce the head count in here

11:50:10 nubbins`: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/dead-dolphin-found-on-roadside-in-bay-roberts-1.3018170

11:50:12 assbot: Dead dolphin found on roadside in Bay Roberts - Newfoundland & Labrador - CBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1xD1Ivh )

11:52:23 nubbins`: obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au1AN_MC6Rg

11:52:23 assbot: Dolphin found on public beach in Newfoundland - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1xD2eco )

11:52:56 Adlai: breaking news: not all interspecies interactions are beneficial for both parties, or even either!

12:01:44 nubbins`: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/nypd-detective-caught-on-video-berating-uber-driver-reassigned-1.3018889

12:01:46 assbot: NYPD detective caught on video berating Uber driver reassigned - World - CBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1xD4BMt )

12:02:00 nubbins`: hahaha man i hate cops.

12:04:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130550 @ 0.00024349 = 31.7876 BTC [-]

12:05:28 nubbins`: mircea_popescu i guess we're technically two-and-a-half-dogland: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/labradoodle-marketing-fetches-2-500-puppy-price-1.3018419

12:05:29 assbot: Labradoodle marketing fetches $2,500 puppy price - Calgary - CBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1xD5BAe )

12:22:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 197550 @ 0.00024212 = 47.8308 BTC [-] {3}

12:29:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82450 @ 0.00024379 = 20.1005 BTC [+] {2}

12:45:54 funkenstein_: mornin' nubbins

12:46:00 funkenstein_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BWGzrhKKi0

12:46:01 assbot: Immortal Technique - Live From New York Footage - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1BTqPGH )

12:53:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 265900 @ 0.00024162 = 64.2468 BTC [-] {3}

12:54:59 funkenstein_: !up diana_coman

12:59:49 danielpbarron: height=309336 vs height=219658

13:02:01 funkenstein_: danielpbarron, what are the height numbers?

13:02:14 funkenstein_: !up smidge

13:16:36 mike_c: funkenstein_: blockchain sync progress on a SSD vs. 5400 rpm platters.

13:17:12 funkenstein_: mike_c, thank you

13:34:48 lobbes: I posted obamaz magic decree to my facebook. Quite expectedly, no one cares.

13:34:50 lobbes: I feel the cynicism growing inside me

13:55:16 Chillum: obama is magical? I knew it1

13:55:18 Chillum: !

13:55:50 funkenstein_: muggle controlled by death eaters, news at 11

13:58:46 punkman: http://www.latimes.com/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19-story.html

13:58:48 assbot: Obama the &apos;Magic Negro&apos; - LA Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2pjel )

14:00:30 nubbins`: <+lobbes> I posted obamaz magic decree to my facebook. Quite expectedly, no one cares. <<< no one, including you

14:00:39 Chillum: some sociologists are magical twits

14:00:50 nubbins`: golly gee, you shared a whole link on bookface?

14:00:53 nubbins`: YOU ANARCHIST

14:01:20 lobbes: yes yes, I deserve that

14:01:45 nubbins`: put another way: maybe all your bookface friends care just as much as you do

14:01:51 nubbins`: i.e. they care enough to share a link

14:02:02 nubbins`: but you did it first, so "*shrug* w/e"

14:02:13 lobbes: hmm I see what you mean

14:02:16 nubbins`: caring != sharing.

14:02:20 lobbes: no real action

14:02:31 nubbins`: not even fake action.

14:02:32 lobbes: just 'hey, "be aware"'

14:02:38 nubbins`: the slightest twitch of a finger.

14:02:54 nubbins`: yes, and awareness has done wonders so far 8)

14:03:47 lobbes: so are the only real options: 1) gtfo 2) wait for the eventual hanging?

14:04:35 nubbins`: no, but i'll leave the other options for you to figure out

14:04:47 nubbins`: some things you can't be shown, neh?

14:05:13 lobbes: I'd like to believe if I just focus on myself and amass enough wealth I can weasel my way through time

14:05:46 lobbes: some things you can't be shown, neh? << agreed. Trial by fire, eh?

14:06:01 nubbins`: well, i'd like to believe this is all an illusion and i'll eventually wake up, my 16-year-old self, sweating through the mattress in a fever dream

14:06:06 nubbins`: wait, that would be horrible

14:15:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37376 @ 0.0002408 = 9.0001 BTC [-]

14:25:49 nubbins`: asciilifeform mod6 ben_vulpes and others: on a side note, auto.sh doesn't put the openssl headers in /ourlibs/

14:27:26 nubbins`: build failed on gentoo using gcc-4.4.7: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=qhb7ZT3x

14:27:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2udYC )

14:27:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104314 @ 0.0002408 = 25.1188 BTC [-]

14:32:30 nubbins`: if i manually move the headers over, back to uint32_t errors: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=taiiWaYc

14:32:31 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2v4bK )

14:33:40 nubbins`: with both of alf's patches applied: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=7qRa7CnL

14:33:41 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2vijl )

14:34:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 139750 @ 0.00024073 = 33.642 BTC [-] {3}

14:37:07 nubbins`: with "-std=c++03" from portatronic patch removed: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=50XwKjsy (precisely the same as before patching)

14:37:08 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2vXkG )

14:43:42 funkenstein_: power rangers added more int types later like arith_uint256

14:44:00 funkenstein_: but 10.0.1 release no longer has that class

14:44:10 nubbins`: after renaming all uint32_t to boost::uint32_t: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=D7XGyGna

14:44:11 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IUiEhQ )

14:44:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 180800 @ 0.00024325 = 43.9796 BTC [+] {3}

14:44:40 nubbins`: after renaming all int32_t to boost::int32_t: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=A2M3kkZL

14:44:41 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IUiOpD )

14:45:03 nubbins`: "canot find -lssl, -lcrypto"

14:45:03 funkenstein_: *0.10.1

14:45:08 nubbins`: *cannot

14:47:42 funkenstein_: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083447 <-- looks like you got here

14:47:42 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 01:18:00; decimation: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2725255/create-statically-linked-binary-that-uses-getaddrinfo <glibc uses libnss to support a number of different providers for address resolution services. Unfortunately, you cannot statically link libnss, as exactly what providers it loads depends on the local system's configuration.

14:47:54 mats: http://awards.acm.org/infosys/

14:47:55 assbot: ACM - Infosys Foundation Award in the Computing Sciences - ACM Award ... ( http://bit.ly/1IUjPhm )

14:53:11 nubbins`: !s libnss

14:53:12 assbot: 0 results for 'libnss' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=libnss

14:53:18 nubbins`: !s nss

14:53:19 assbot: 5 results for 'nss' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=nss

14:54:13 nubbins`: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083738

14:54:13 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 03:26:58; nubbins`: "glibc uses libnss to support a number of different providers for address resolution services. Unfortunately, you cannot statically link libnss, as exactly what providers it loads depends on the local system's configuration."

14:54:14 nubbins`: :D

14:54:23 nubbins`: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1083741

14:54:23 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 03:27:23; decimation: nubbins`: no that's a different issue, not critical

14:54:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124700 @ 0.0002459 = 30.6637 BTC [+]

14:54:44 mats: http://syssec.rub.de/media/emma/veroeffentlichungen/2015/03/28/COOP-Oakland15.pdf

14:54:45 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2zcIM )

14:54:45 mod6: yeah, what we need now is a build environment as discussed yesterday. or we really can't move forward.

14:54:59 nubbins`: i know qemu was bandied about in the past

14:55:01 nubbins`: !qemu

14:55:05 nubbins`: er.

14:55:07 nubbins`: !s qemu

14:55:08 assbot: 18 results for 'qemu' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=qemu

14:56:23 nubbins`: ^ read

14:56:36 mod6: are you talking to me?

14:57:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101750 @ 0.00024853 = 25.2879 BTC [+] {3}

14:57:36 mod6: i thought everyone wanted to create a common gentoo configuration.

14:58:23 mod6: anyway, that's the deal. we need something that we can work with; one supported environment, blessed by alf.

14:58:28 funkenstein_: mats, can you summarize the COOP scoop?

14:58:33 asciilifeform: 'Boneh, in joint work with Matt Franklin, constructed a novel pairing-based method for identity-based encryption (IBE), whereby a user's public identity, such as an email address, can function as the user's public key. Since then, Boneh's contributions, together with those of others, have shown the power and versatility of pairings, which are now used as a mainstream tool in cryptography. The transfer of pairings from theory t

14:58:33 asciilifeform: o practice has been rapid. Organizations now using pairings include healthcare, financial, and insurance institutions. Over a billion IBE-encrypted emails are sent each year.' << ahahahahahaha.

14:58:48 asciilifeform: http://awards.acm.org/award_winners/boneh_4125431.cfm ^ from mats's link

14:58:49 assbot: Dan Boneh - Award Winner ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2A14C )

14:59:43 asciilifeform: 'Identity-based encryption is a type of public-key encryption in which any arbitrary string (such as a user?s email address) can be used as a public key, enabling data to be protected without the need for long, randomly generated keys or certificates. Today, there are numerous standards for IBE based on Boneh?s work, including IEEE P1363.3 and several IETF RFCs.' << from the press release.

14:59:47 asciilifeform: what a crock of shit!

14:59:58 asciilifeform: and it has the full blessing of american academia, yes.

15:00:59 asciilifeform: 'Dan Boneh is professor of Computer Science and Electrical Engineering at Stanford University, and leads the applied cryptography group there. He has written extensively on cryptography and computer security, publishing more than 150 refereed conference and peer-reviewed journal papers. Boneh served as an editor of ACM Transactions on Internet Technology (TOIT), Journal of the ACM (JACM), and Journal of Cryptology. He has serv

15:00:59 asciilifeform: ed as program chair or general chair for several academic conferences and as member of more than 30 conference program committees.'

15:01:28 asciilifeform: ^ now we know what EACH AND EVERY ONE of those institutions, the papers this cheap clown refereed, the conferences he chaired - are worth.

15:01:51 *: danielpbarron already knew they weren't worth much

15:01:58 asciilifeform: no but this is how it works.

15:01:58 funkenstein_: smells like cryptography as a service

15:02:10 asciilifeform: this is how usg killed -actual- academic crypto

15:02:18 asciilifeform: any wonder they banned shamir from usa?

15:02:20 asciilifeform: !s shamir

15:02:21 assbot: 25 results for 'shamir' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=shamir

15:02:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116052 @ 0.00025208 = 29.2544 BTC [+] {2}

15:03:34 nubbins`: uh

15:03:48 nubbins`: you don't generate a public key from an email address, you generate it from a private key

15:03:53 nubbins`: what's the private key here?

15:03:58 nubbins`: the fucking email address?

15:04:16 funkenstein_: nubbins i can hold the private key for you don't worry

15:04:20 nubbins`: k thx

15:04:27 nubbins`: i'll pm my email password

15:04:31 nubbins`: you just get it set up

15:04:35 funkenstein_: lol

15:04:59 asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> in that "proof of idempotence" has generally been orders of magnitude more successful at proving the proving party has no idea what proving means << didn't say it would be easy. or that the existing 'state of the art' is any kind of guide.

15:05:35 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ... dude what the fuck is so very convenient about all the rotor bs i dunno << short keys

15:05:38 nubbins`: ugh i need lunch

15:06:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: does that remind you of arguments in favour of any modern cryptosystem? how about ecdsa, aha

15:06:45 asciilifeform: What You Need to Know About the Unsealed Silk Road Docket << i do so hate these 'what you need to know' titles. implication is that no serious person would need to know anything else

15:07:16 asciilifeform: and -of course- it proclaims 'this malefactor was caught thanks to our glorious know-your-customer crapolade!'

15:09:07 asciilifeform: <nubbins`> because, y'know, if you lost your keys three days ago, you should come home drunk to a locked house at 3:30am ..with no plan << http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=01-04-2015#1083000 >> what do you suppose i was talking about.

15:09:07 assbot: Logged on 01-04-2015 22:18:14; ascii_field: nubbins`: but even something like living in a dwelling without the company of strangers is a titanically expensive luxury in most of the world

15:09:22 nubbins`: HAHAHA

15:09:29 nubbins`: hey, pothing's nerfect.

15:09:56 nubbins`: anyway i gave said idiot the boot

15:10:01 nubbins`: he's got til the 30th

15:10:26 asciilifeform: <nubbins`> with "-std=c++03" from portatronic patch removed << might not actually make a difference

15:11:03 asciilifeform: <nubbins`> "canot find -lssl, -lcrypto" << note! it finds the system's headers, like a moron, and builds with them, then notices no local ssl was built (it wasn't)

15:12:03 asciilifeform: nubbins`: he's got til the 30th << so you didn't need the money? or will replace him with a fresh idiot ?

15:12:05 nubbins`: i think the openssl build has some problems

15:12:24 nubbins`: asciilifeform his bedroom is being turned into a paper-printing studio

15:12:31 asciilifeform: neato.

15:12:32 nubbins`: pink eye will make up the rent shortfall

15:12:34 nubbins`: yeah :D

15:13:04 asciilifeform: 'Using 'getaddrinfo' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking' << wtf are we even using getaddrinfo for.

15:15:14 asciilifeform: objdump -t src/obj/nogui/*.o | grep getaddrinfo

15:15:14 asciilifeform: 0000000000000000 *UND* 0000000000000000 getaddrinfo

15:15:17 asciilifeform: it's in there all right

15:15:20 asciilifeform: motherfuckers.

15:15:41 nubbins`: incidentally i tried a non-static build of openssl, auto.sh barfs w/ same error

15:16:12 asciilifeform: nubbins`: which error

15:16:19 nubbins`: cannot find -lssl, -lcrypto

15:16:34 asciilifeform: because it was given the local ssl as a search path, yes

15:16:37 asciilifeform: of course couldn't find.

15:16:41 asciilifeform: no surprise here

15:17:25 asciilifeform: ahahahaha guess what

15:17:35 asciilifeform: my dns seed snip patch never made it in the realease, did it

15:17:53 nubbins`: nope

15:17:56 asciilifeform: quite possibly this is where the getaddrinfo crap is from!

15:17:59 nubbins`: oh ha is that what's using it!

15:21:04 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://cryptome.org/2015/04/ulbricht-227-228.pdf << the unsealed material

15:21:09 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2EjZM )

15:22:09 asciilifeform: i just can't get over the lulziness of usg proclaiming that stealing/extorting from an outlaw constitutes 'theft of government property'

15:24:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 138238 @ 0.0002428 = 33.5642 BTC [-] {2}

15:25:54 asciilifeform: mats: http://syssec.rub.de/media/emma/veroeffentlichungen/2015/03/28/COOP-Oakland15.pdf << aha. recommended reading for all, quite pertinent.

15:25:55 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BRwE6s )

15:27:23 nubbins`: wow, the latest DDOS attack against the forum seems to have reinstated the ability to change/add avatars

15:27:24 nubbins`: ;p

15:28:32 mats: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32157342

15:28:33 assbot: Kenya Garissa students taken hostage by al-Shabab - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2FGYh )

15:29:04 mats: funkenstein_: read the extract

15:32:47 *: nubbins` takes this opportunity to make his avatar look meaner

15:33:41 mats: http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2015/04/truecrypt-report.html

15:33:42 assbot: A Few Thoughts on Cryptographic Engineering: Truecrypt report ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2GLiM )

15:34:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 211200 @ 0.00024533 = 51.8137 BTC [+] {2}

15:36:53 danielpbarron: A problem in Truecrypt is that in some extremely rare circumstances, the Crypto API can fail to properly initialize. When this happens, Truecrypt should barf and catch fire. Instead it silently accepts this failure and continues to generate keys.

15:37:22 nubbins`: ha

15:37:23 mats: For example: the most significant issue in the Truecrypt report is a finding related to the Windows version of Truecrypt's random number generator (RNG), which is responsible for generating the keys that encrypt Truecrypt volumes.

15:37:48 ben_vulpes: <mod6> [14:57] anyway, that's the deal. we need something that we can work with; one supported environment, blessed by alf. << asciilifeform, what's the One True Build Target for La Serenissima?

15:37:48 nubbins`: more like Falsecrypt

15:38:05 nubbins`: gentoo on amd64, but the shit don't work

15:38:44 ben_vulpes: if it doesn't work how is it a candidate now?

15:39:20 nubbins`: whatcha wanna use, windows?

15:40:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 210462 @ 0.00023945 = 50.3951 BTC [-] {2}

15:40:28 nubbins`: gentoo is ostensibly used by alf because it's the sanest. the fact that bitcoind doesn't compile on it doesn't necessarily mean that the OS is the problem, nor does it mean a turd should be adopted as the OTBT

15:40:52 nubbins`: but...

15:40:55 nubbins`: \o/

15:41:07 nubbins`: i don't know nearly enough about gcc to be of much further use atm

15:41:38 *: nubbins` is good at figuring things out but is currently in position of "doesn't know what questions to ask"

15:41:48 ben_vulpes: tell me about it.

15:43:01 ben_vulpes: anyways, we need a build target. one. not the accidental build target of debian 6 that fell out of my archaeology project.

15:43:06 ben_vulpes: talk about unexamined assumptions...

15:47:32 jurov: ubuntu!!!

15:48:19 jurov: (context: i was hired to patch android system. had to create nigbuntu lxc container for its monstrous build system)

15:49:55 ben_vulpes: oh yeah. i did a continuous integration thinger for an android project recently.

15:50:28 ben_vulpes: ('here, let me duct tape a bunch of libs together so you get emails when your derps break the cpp compiled into the android code')

15:50:42 ben_vulpes: surely my finest work

15:54:52 nubbins`: heh

15:55:14 nubbins`: well, alf's not gonna go for anything w/ systemd

15:55:34 nubbins`: what *has* worked on so far? debian, darwin, that it?

15:57:01 thestringpuller: systemd is the best thing ever

15:57:02 thestringpuller: so fast

15:57:08 thestringpuller: much secure

15:57:10 nubbins`: ah get out

15:58:06 thestringpuller: rich boy sellin' coin broke niggaz wanna jack this just bought a debian "THROW SOME SYSTEMD's on dat bitch"

15:58:23 thestringpuller: amirite?

15:58:43 ben_vulpes: out, you

15:58:49 ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: are you coming to con3?

15:59:45 thestringpuller: no. i'm going to have to cancel for family reasons related to finance

15:59:59 thestringpuller: haven't been able to contact cazalla

16:00:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 136300 @ 0.00023901 = 32.5771 BTC [-] {2}

16:00:34 thestringpuller: "It's all fun and games until someone jokes about systemd" lol

16:01:32 mod6: <+nubbins`> what *has* worked on so far? debian, darwin, that it? << what's blowing my mind is why i was able to build just fine on aws Gentoo AMI. Unless it was packed full of stuff in there that we don't want to begin with. Which must be the case.

16:03:48 mod6: here's the build log: http://thebitcoin.foundation/gentoo-x86_32-bitcoind-static.txt

16:03:49 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1P2NE3B )

16:03:54 nubbins`: i know nothing about aws, can you pull an image of that machine down locally?

16:04:21 nubbins`: mod6 ah 32bit

16:04:30 nubbins`: tried 64?

16:04:44 *: nubbins` has a suspicion that this is somehow related to 32bit vs 64bit libs

16:05:08 mod6: yeah, I believe I did. But I can't find a build log for it.

16:05:22 asciilifeform: <ben_vulpes> what's the One True Build Target for La Serenissima? << why asking -me-, l0l

16:05:30 asciilifeform: what if i said 'posix'

16:05:34 mod6: I also seem to recall, and maybe I should dig for it, someone else built for gentoo before anyone was discussing 32bit.

16:05:46 mod6: like... say.. 3-4 weeks ago when we were testing stuff.

16:06:02 nubbins`: asciilifeform then i'd mention again that i built it on POSIX-compliant os

16:06:05 asciilifeform: general rule is that i should be able to at least obtain the build target using -the compilers i presently have- and a set of sourceballs.

16:06:09 nubbins`: that happens to be made by crapple

16:06:14 asciilifeform: that is, i should not have to download any binaries.

16:06:28 asciilifeform: nor should nubbins`, or ben_vulpes, or the rest.

16:06:49 asciilifeform: <nubbins`> well, alf's not gonna go for anything w/ systemd << damn right

16:06:54 nubbins`: one of the solutions floated for the "no lssl, lcrypto" thing was to download precompiled bins

16:06:55 nubbins`: i lel'd

16:07:44 mod6: asciilifeform: can you make a repeatable build environment for The Foundation to use going forward? Something put together by you, blessed by you, so we're all building/testing/using something that "fits in head"?

16:07:50 nubbins`: "can't untie the knot in your laces? cut em off and apply glue-backed velcro"

16:08:04 asciilifeform: mod6: i suggested this some time near day 1 if anyone recalls

16:08:12 nubbins`: yeah, see !s qemu

16:08:23 asciilifeform: but do folks really want to pass a multigig bag of shit around ?

16:08:34 nubbins`: mod6 in fairness my gentoo was installed using the official docs, and it's reacting precisely the same as alf's

16:08:40 asciilifeform: ^^

16:08:43 mod6: What I was hoping for is maybe a build script. Would that be muti-gig?

16:08:59 nubbins`: "build script" is sorta the install guide :P

16:09:03 asciilifeform: mod6: build script is what we have now

16:09:06 asciilifeform: and see the result.

16:09:17 asciilifeform: no, it would have to be a disk image for an emulated machine

16:09:24 asciilifeform: to be 100% replicable across time and space

16:09:33 asciilifeform: regardless of whether you have a 'pc' or 'elbrus'

16:09:36 nubbins`: mod6 ^

16:09:46 asciilifeform: or hypertrophied nintendo

16:09:47 mod6: Ok, so say that you have installed via offical docs, bla bla bla. Ok, then our release doesn't work. But we need to fix defects, and I refuse to have this happen going forward. So we need something repeatable.

16:09:54 *: nubbins` has a virtualbox .VDI with gentoo installed

16:10:22 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i'd rather have something that isn't as dependent on pc

16:10:32 asciilifeform: virtualization of pc arch only works on pc arch.

16:11:00 nubbins`: yeah

16:11:11 nubbins`: well.

16:11:16 asciilifeform: try to understand why i am hesitant to put out a binary image for folks to run

16:11:24 mod6: i don't want a binary.

16:11:55 mod6: i want a script that will build all of the "accepted"/"blessed" versions of the things it needs; gcc, etc, etc, etc.

16:12:11 mod6: we have to get to some sort of common ground here.

16:12:31 asciilifeform: mod6: say i publish a recipe for constructing said image (runs on, e.g., qemu-system-mipsel). and then you do it, and we learn that your disk image differs from mine which differs from nubbins` which differs from mircea_popescu's etc

16:12:34 asciilifeform: what then.

16:12:51 asciilifeform: mod6: i want a script that will build all of the "accepted"/"blessed" versions << notice that this is where we were with bitcoind ?

16:13:16 asciilifeform: let's rephrase a bit

16:13:33 mod6: ok. im not sure if we have a way forward on this project. or if there is, I don't know what it is.

16:13:45 asciilifeform: the only -canonical- parent of a given build on my box is my particular hardware plus my particular disk contents

16:14:21 asciilifeform: given that i do not especially feel like publishing the entire contents of my disk, nor could you replicate my machine easily (most of the components are no longer produced) - the next best thing is to somehow create an equivalent

16:14:36 asciilifeform: with, yes, maximally detailed instructions made publi

16:14:36 asciilifeform: c

16:14:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 167100 @ 0.00023779 = 39.7347 BTC [-] {2}

16:14:46 asciilifeform: the other non-negotiable requirement is that it be -small-

16:14:52 jurov: can't be some supported-till-2020 distro used for now? gentoo is good, but moving target

16:14:54 asciilifeform: because we -would- have to eventually audit the binaries.

16:15:04 asciilifeform: jurov: 'supported' means what ?

16:16:09 nubbins`: before we dig too deep, is it fair to say that qemu is worth using for hosting dev environment?

16:16:23 nubbins`: leaving aside the question of OS for now

16:16:25 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i have used it for dev work for many years.

16:16:28 nubbins`: ok

16:16:30 asciilifeform: it is a simple enough beast

16:16:41 nubbins`: so maybe we can start there

16:17:10 asciilifeform: there -are- even simpler emulators

16:17:17 asciilifeform: like gxemul

16:17:18 nubbins`: what's the simplest we could get away with?

16:17:28 asciilifeform: these do not focus on any -physical- machine that existed in life

16:17:34 asciilifeform: but a 'textbook' mips plus bitmap graphics

16:17:44 mats: http://hmarco.org/bugs/AMD-Bulldozer-linux-ASLR-weakness-reducing-mmaped-files-by-eight.html

16:17:44 assbot: AMD Bulldozer Linux ASLR weakness: Reducing entropy by 87.5% ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6vG8d )

16:17:50 asciilifeform: i use gxemul in cardano work

16:17:54 mod6: i dont want to rely on an emulator if possible. i'd like to have: a URL to an ISO of gentoo that's "acceptable", a script that pulls down tar balls of required tools and builds them

16:18:00 jurov: mhm...how do you ensure you'll hav exact versions of stuff once gentoo moves on?

16:18:08 asciilifeform: mod6: again, iso for what box

16:18:18 mod6: x86_64

16:18:24 nubbins`: uh does gxemul emulate x86?

16:18:29 asciilifeform: if you have physical hardware, you do not control all of the variables

16:18:40 asciilifeform: <nubbins`> uh does gxemul emulate x86? << very much not!

16:18:44 nubbins`: :D

16:18:50 asciilifeform: only a textbook 'ideal' mips cpu that never existed

16:18:55 asciilifeform: but we're cross-compiling anyway

16:18:58 nubbins`: right

16:19:00 asciilifeform: (gcc doesn't care what it runs on)

16:19:07 asciilifeform: all compilation is cross-compilation, really

16:19:12 mod6: ok so we're stuck with using an emulator only.

16:19:21 nubbins`: not stuck

16:19:36 asciilifeform: not stuck. just gives a golden reference

16:19:40 mod6: how does one then build on an emulator then run it on their desktop or vps or w/e?

16:19:41 nubbins`: i wouldn't ascribe "stuck" to having clone-able metal available

16:19:44 asciilifeform: you can still take the code and build elsewhere - if you know how

16:19:56 asciilifeform: mod6: cross compile

16:20:01 asciilifeform: like we now do for 'pogo'

16:20:26 nubbins`: i fear this'll add complexity from the start because you won't know if the cross-compile is failing because it's a cross-compile or because the code's borked

16:20:49 asciilifeform: if the cross-compile is failing because it's a cross-compile << cross-compile is the gold standard for correctness

16:20:57 asciilifeform: why? -- because you know it cannot be using the system's libs

16:21:01 asciilifeform: thinkaboutit

16:21:04 nubbins`: ah, this is correct

16:21:17 asciilifeform: does not make the code smarter, no

16:21:20 nubbins`: cross-compile failing would probably be a canary

16:21:34 asciilifeform: but eliminates several holes-through-which-the-night-walks-in

16:21:48 nubbins`: other pros/cons for qemu vx gxemul?

16:21:56 nubbins`: might as well get em all laid out now

16:22:11 asciilifeform: http://gxemul.sourceforge.net

16:22:12 assbot: GXemul ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6wdHc )

16:22:49 asciilifeform: it has simplified hardware, not copied from any physical machine sold. quite like many similar emulators used in schools

16:23:03 asciilifeform: and mips is a very simple and well-defined cpu arch.

16:23:21 asciilifeform: qemu on the other hand emulates many physical machines

16:23:27 asciilifeform: including i386 and x86_64

16:23:33 asciilifeform: which you can physically get.

16:23:38 asciilifeform: but is a more complex beast

16:24:04 asciilifeform: the third choice, included for completeness, is that we do none of this

16:24:12 asciilifeform: and carry on with our old approach.

16:24:29 asciilifeform: of trying to get to the bottom of why the thing built for some folks

16:25:16 nubbins`: aha

16:26:35 nubbins`: welp

16:26:49 nubbins`: based on this, i think qemu is the third choice

16:27:02 asciilifeform: aha lol

16:27:14 asciilifeform: fourth then.

16:27:53 nubbins`: okay, so.

16:28:00 nubbins`: if anyone reading feels like being tasked

16:28:48 nubbins`: do a run-through (or 10) of getting gxemul set up, and make a guide

16:29:01 nubbins`: i'm assuming the built environments can be swapped around from person to person?

16:29:28 asciilifeform: nubbins`: yes, that's the whole point.

16:29:40 nubbins`: ok

16:29:55 *: nubbins` asks "sanity check" questions more often than most

16:29:56 asciilifeform: 38108c7e4f1332bf80046a63e4a7c5e0fbce7f83a62fdeaa4518ef02947d7de83aac20b0307d286b7eb5d9c721b8400d449d4f244b2bc9358a2502fa21f56b73 /usr/portage/distfiles/gxemul-0.6.0.tar.gz

16:30:00 asciilifeform: ^ my snapshot

16:30:10 asciilifeform: dated feb. 14 2010

16:30:32 nubbins`: current stable is only

16:31:16 nubbins`: welp

16:31:37 nubbins`: my path forward is prolly gonna be (a)gxemul (b) gentoo on same (c) on same

16:32:00 nubbins`: i do feel that we'll run into precisely the same issues as we're having with our current gentoo installs

16:32:21 asciilifeform: deedbot- http://dpaste.com/11V97ED

16:32:22 assbot: dpaste: 11V97ED: gxemul ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6xMVL )

16:32:29 nubbins`: but hey. the plural of anecdote is proof, yes?

16:32:36 asciilifeform: deedbot...?

16:32:50 nubbins`: !up deedbot-

16:32:58 jurov: will it be able to run or even debug bitcoind?

16:33:10 asciilifeform: nubbins`: not gentoo for the (so far, hypothetical) emulated machine

16:33:12 asciilifeform: buildroot

16:33:20 nubbins`: o, rite

16:33:21 jurov: otherwise no one will use that for development

16:33:22 asciilifeform: we don't need to upgrade it ever

16:33:25 asciilifeform: or add packages

16:33:39 asciilifeform: jurov: clearly this is part of the spec, it must build for a) self b) other archs

16:33:43 asciilifeform: or cannot be used.

16:33:57 asciilifeform: i am also open to using a bsd of one kind or another

16:34:02 jurov: building and usefully running are two disticnt things

16:34:21 nubbins`: BingoBoingo messed w/ on bsd?

16:34:36 nubbins`: i'll be afk-ish, one last color to lay down on these business cards

16:34:39 asciilifeform: jurov: the good thing about an emulator is that you can emulate machine of any size, providing you have one 20x or so that size.

16:34:55 asciilifeform: is deedbot dead ?

16:34:58 jurov: even openbsd prefers to maintain racks of obsolete hardware to running emulators

16:35:04 nubbins`: deedbot- afasdfasdfgwre

16:35:17 nubbins`: deedbot- http://dpaste.com/11V97ED

16:35:18 assbot: dpaste: 11V97ED: gxemul ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6ycv7 )

16:35:18 deedbot-: Bad URL or network outage.

16:35:23 jurov: so i'm not very keen on this

16:35:38 nubbins`: deedbot- http://dpaste.com/11V97ED.txt

16:35:39 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6ydPH )

16:35:39 asciilifeform: jurov: openbsd is solving a rather different problem, 'waltzing' it on variety of archs

16:35:39 deedbot-: accepted: 1

16:35:42 nubbins`: asciilifeform ^

16:35:46 nubbins`: raw txt

16:36:05 asciilifeform: jurov: i can't say i'm creaming my pants with excitement over the idea of doing this. but so far the alternatives have been disappointing

16:36:24 nubbins`: jurov openbsd keeps a room of shit hardware because it's expected to run on that shit hardware in the real world

16:36:35 nubbins`: not on emulators of the shit hardware

16:37:04 nubbins`: <+nubbins`> i'll be afk-ish, one last color to lay down on these business cards

16:38:24 asciilifeform: if using gxemul, i was speaking specifically of http://gxemul.sourceforge.net/gxemul-stable/doc/machines/machine_testmips.html

16:38:25 assbot: GXemul - Documentation ( ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6yySC )

16:38:41 asciilifeform: (it supports other, more realistic archs too, which i actually forgot because never tried)

16:39:05 asciilifeform: and before anyone asks, the ram is adjustable!

16:39:09 asciilifeform: or it would be a joke

16:39:11 nubbins`: HAHA i was about to.

16:39:25 nubbins`: how 'bout the cpu speed ;p

16:39:37 asciilifeform: adjustable by buying faster physical cpu, lol

16:40:01 asciilifeform: i think everyone here knows what an emulator is

16:40:09 asciilifeform: and what the serious tradeoffs are.

16:40:40 nubbins`: i know i'd sure as fuck rather play Super Spike V-Ball on an actual NES

16:40:59 asciilifeform: i wouldn't. fucking hate ntsc and 60hz flicker

16:41:02 jurov: why not use jvm? </troll>

16:41:11 nubbins`: hue

16:41:11 asciilifeform: jurov: dotnet!

16:41:38 nubbins`: asciilifeform i wonder how well it works w/ modern tvs

16:41:47 *: nubbins` has NES, but in storage

16:41:58 asciilifeform: nubbins`: most tv sets still come with ntsc jacks

16:42:04 asciilifeform: last i checked

16:42:13 *: asciilifeform has not been to a tv store in a very long time

16:42:30 nubbins`: yeah they still come w/ RCA in

16:42:47 nubbins`: incidentally, the fact that NES has RCA out is amazing

16:42:47 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

16:43:06 asciilifeform: nubbins`: why ?

16:43:10 asciilifeform: how else would it output

16:43:36 asciilifeform: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/urbit-dev/zhMRI9hn4KI/bMYtcr9o5QkJ << unrelated mega-l0l

16:43:37 assbot: Google Discussiegroepen ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6zdnb )

16:44:44 asciilifeform: http://cryptome.org/2015-info/dragoon/dragoon-ride.htm << wtf

16:44:45 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6zjet )

16:45:32 asciilifeform: ^ eu welcomes reich IV as it welcomed III

16:46:25 nubbins`: asciilifeform via stupid RF adapter

16:46:31 nubbins`: plugged into coax input

16:46:38 asciilifeform: aha those.

16:46:41 asciilifeform: i remember those.

16:46:43 nubbins`: yeah

16:46:53 nubbins`: my atari 2600 one had a switch for CH 2/3

16:46:55 *: asciilifeform never had 'nes' but had 'commodore 64'

16:47:13 asciilifeform: anyway it was usually the tv which lacked rca in

16:47:21 asciilifeform: commodore, for instance, had the out

16:47:24 nubbins`: back then, yeah. a rarity.

16:47:52 nubbins`: imagine, future-proofing a video game console in 1983 :0

16:48:44 asciilifeform: http://cryptome.org/2015-info/dragoon/pict21.jpg << very special l0lsauce

16:48:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6zR3T )

16:49:01 asciilifeform: wonder if the muppet ever wondered why his pissant kingdom was ever occupied by ru.

16:49:59 nubbins`: hahahahaha is he holding a fucking pint of draft?

16:50:17 asciilifeform: and ahahaha we know, it was because it lacked a 'big daddy' to cry to

16:50:25 nubbins`: oh wow there's another almost-empty glass behind the other side of the banner

16:50:26 nubbins`: o.O

16:50:34 nubbins`: together we will *hic*

16:50:53 nubbins`: TOGETHER WE WILL *HIC* [SIC] NOT ALLOW...

16:52:52 punkman: http://www.marketplace.org/topics/education/learning-curve/american-students-head-germany-free-college

16:52:54 assbot: American students head to Germany for free college | Marketplace.org ... ( http://bit.ly/1F6Anz0 )

16:54:17 punkman: this girl I know moved to germany to work at some tech company, 800eur salary for first 2 years or something.

17:20:14 nubbins`: woo, done, nicest cards yet

17:20:20 *: nubbins` wanders away to void himself

17:23:46 punkman: http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/32157624

17:23:47 assbot: Woman reported for flashing Google Street View car in South Australia - BBC Newsbeat ... ( http://bit.ly/1CVQCSh )

17:27:01 punkman: http://m0.joe.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/30094607/Nazi.gif

17:27:02 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CVS72X )

17:27:04 punkman: " balaclava-clad goon attempts to burn a fire-resistant EU flag"

17:27:16 jurov: together we will *hic* ...so? let's have fun

17:30:45 jurov: alf takes his usaschwitz suffering too seriously

17:33:26 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1181853joe_sacco_buffoons_tale.png << l33t w4r3z scan. this comic was probably not intentionally about the collapse of fiat world, but is a good parable for it regardless.

17:33:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CVUKlf )

17:33:27 gribble: The operation succeeded.

17:41:08 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 77 @ 0.01505727 = 1.1594 BTC [+] {6}

18:02:41 asciilifeform: 'hey hey, ho, ho,' dns in bitcoind 'has got to go!!'

18:14:46 mircea_popescu: good mornin'!

18:20:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 439400 @ 0.00025376 = 111.5021 BTC [+] {2}

18:27:19 ben_vulpes: ein popescu!

18:27:27 jurov: morning!

18:27:34 mircea_popescu: ja!

18:28:43 jurov: damn, i realized took me half day to get through last 24h logs

18:28:49 jurov: should be doing sth else

18:29:20 asciilifeform: l0l

18:32:33 ben_vulpes: dude these logs are dense

18:32:39 mircea_popescu: heh. as in stupid ?

18:32:48 ben_vulpes: it's not the number of lines but the maaaadness described herein

18:32:57 jurov: BingoBoingo: interested in "Weekly #b-a"? i need at least someting useful to come out of this

18:32:59 mircea_popescu: ahahaha wut!

18:33:19 mircea_popescu: jurov yes actually, summaries have been sought and hoped and desired for year+

18:33:21 ben_vulpes: every 2 lines i have to hare off to the internet - "buildroot" "qemu"

18:33:38 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes that's only because you're a young fox.

18:33:38 asciilifeform: there breatheth a man who has not heard of 'qemu' ?

18:33:51 ben_vulpes: up yrs, asciilifeform

18:33:51 jurov: ^

18:33:55 mircea_popescu: apparently. EVEN I!!!! had actually seen the thing used.

18:34:08 mircea_popescu: and honestly, i should be the king noob here.

18:34:18 ben_vulpes: naw, you're too old to be a noob anymore.

18:34:28 mircea_popescu: but i never put any serious effort into electrical engineering!

18:34:40 mircea_popescu: point in case : that's how you say "computing" imh.

18:34:43 jurov: s.qntr arrived

18:34:52 mircea_popescu: jurov just sent it yeah. was about to notify you

18:34:55 jurov: who wants to get'em first?

18:34:57 mircea_popescu: but then I GOT CAUGHT IN A BA CONVO

18:34:59 ben_vulpes: "imh" << in my house?

18:35:02 mircea_popescu: head

18:35:11 ben_vulpes: ah

18:35:20 jurov: lol

18:35:21 mircea_popescu: i was going to, but then i got caught in conversation!

18:35:23 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu> but i never put any serious effort into electrical engineering! << said the chap with his own bitcoind running on soviet trinary comp

18:35:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will notice it is not my effort tho.

18:35:48 mircea_popescu: i have put plenty of ope, as you may well be aware of from unrelatedlandia.

18:36:00 asciilifeform: haha aha.

18:36:08 asciilifeform: <jurov> s.qntr arrived << my broadcast also coming soonish

18:36:24 *: asciilifeform presently lightly occupied with a couplea unrelated things

18:36:53 mircea_popescu: we should start our own cockney. coupla unrelated things = fleas.

18:37:12 asciilifeform: 'flee,' said the fly; 'fly,' said the flea...

18:37:46 bitstein: mircea_popescu, mod6: The deed link at the bottom of http://thebitcoin.foundation/declaration.txt redirects to a weird domain registration site.

18:37:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gkw3A7 )

18:38:01 mircea_popescu: ugh

18:38:32 ben_vulpes: linkrot!

18:38:38 mircea_popescu: hot damn...

18:38:51 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla any idea why http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/ redirects to unregistry.com ?

18:38:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GkweLY )

18:38:54 trinque: perfect time for me to point out that current incarnation needs friendly hosting

18:39:06 mircea_popescu: oh wait it is not kako's fault

18:39:10 mircea_popescu: TRINQUE

18:39:12 trinque: is not

18:39:17 trinque: I don't run whatever URL that is

18:39:23 mircea_popescu: a) put the fucking history in and b) fix your 404 scheme

18:39:35 trinque: that's not hitting the current one, wherever it's going

18:39:38 mircea_popescu: what happens is that http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/deed/9ULZPc7yeZ9fQEA1aZ73H6mcv1s2C4gYFAbNTb5urovj gets -> to deedbot.org/ deed/9ULZPc7yeZ9fQEA1aZ73H6mcv1s2C4gYFAbNTb5urovj

18:39:40 assbot: Domain Names - New gTLDs | Uniregistry ... ( http://bit.ly/1GkwmLc )

18:39:40 mircea_popescu: which...

18:40:05 bitstein: mircea_popescu: http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/ redirects to http://deedbot.org/ for me. It's that specific deed link that is redirecting to unregistry.com

18:40:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/19NfCjn )

18:40:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/19NfCzN )

18:40:19 mircea_popescu: right.

18:40:28 trinque: http://deedbot.org/deed/9ULZPc7yeZ9fQEA1aZ73H6mcv1s2C4gYFAbNTb5urovj << normal aws 404

18:40:29 assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/19NfJv7 )

18:40:33 trinque: and I don't know what that registry is

18:40:35 trinque: never heard of her

18:40:38 mircea_popescu: weirdness.

18:41:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 188050 @ 0.00025508 = 47.9678 BTC [+] {3}

18:41:19 mircea_popescu: > Host: deeds.bitcoin-assets.com

18:41:19 mircea_popescu: > Accept: */*

18:41:19 mircea_popescu: >

18:41:19 mircea_popescu: < HTTP/1.1 302 Found

18:41:19 mircea_popescu: < Server: nginx/1.2.1

18:41:20 mircea_popescu: eyah ok.

18:55:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72500 @ 0.00025193 = 18.2649 BTC [-]

19:26:38 mircea_popescu: <trinque> perfect time for me to point out that current incarnation needs friendly hosting << fucking hell someone start that hoster already.

19:26:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 169700 @ 0.00024797 = 42.0805 BTC [-] {2}

19:30:11 jurov: trinque what specs?

19:30:16 trinque: minimal

19:30:21 asciilifeform: if we do the emulatron thing, it will -definitely- need hosting

19:30:25 mircea_popescu: you need what, python for the bot ?

19:30:31 trinque: python and go

19:30:33 asciilifeform: i'd rather not put a multigig turd on my puny hostatron

19:30:38 trinque: and some space for the blockchain

19:30:49 mircea_popescu: some space aka 50gb

19:30:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1000000 @ 0.000257 = 257 BTC [+] {8}

19:31:14 jurov: interesting, what it needs blockchain for?

19:31:41 trinque: has its own node

19:31:50 asciilifeform: naturally deedbot has node

19:31:54 asciilifeform: how else.

19:32:34 nubbins`: <+punkman> " balaclava-clad goon attempts to burn a fire-resistant EU flag" <<< protip: spray paint the corner of the thing before lighting

19:32:38 jurov: i see

19:32:40 mircea_popescu: pretty much means server for it can't have ssd.

19:33:04 mircea_popescu: nubbins` or squirt 190 proof alcohol on it

19:33:19 asciilifeform: ssd isn't -really- 'disposable'

19:33:20 jurov: so, we can bootstrap on aws and move to iron later

19:33:30 asciilifeform: lasts about as long as the shitty mechanical disks sold in past 5 yrs

19:33:48 asciilifeform: neither is worth anything except in heterogeneous tandem.

19:33:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just meant for size. server ssd 100gb is expensive as shit

19:33:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1245983 @ 0.00026371 = 328.5782 BTC [+] {8}

19:34:10 jurov: trinque any specific distro?

19:34:16 mircea_popescu: jurov i think he is on aws already

19:34:47 trinque: currently gentoo which is my preference

19:34:50 nubbins`: mircea_popescu i'd say that man drinks the 190 proof

19:35:04 nubbins`: prob drinks the paint too, i mean, that 'clava doesn't even fit him! it's like 3x too big!

19:35:43 mircea_popescu: wait he's dressed in a pastry ?

19:36:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 168200 @ 0.00026831 = 45.1297 BTC [+] {2}

19:36:17 nubbins`: heh

19:36:24 nubbins`: "the man donned his baclava"

19:36:35 nubbins`: oh hey, 10 minutes left in this auction: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=975256.msg10963734#msg10963734

19:36:36 assbot: Casascius 0.5 BTC Silver Series-2 physical bitcoin: NO RESERVE, 30-DAY AUCTION ... ( http://bit.ly/1BV27pl )

19:36:37 asciilifeform: unrelated:

19:36:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://thesemenette.com/home.html

19:36:40 assbot: The Semenette® : : : Even Better than the Real Thing ... ( http://bit.ly/1BV29xp )

19:36:46 nubbins`: if you wanna see people be loose with money, that's the place to go

19:36:48 asciilifeform: (don't ask how found this, l0l)

19:37:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 585817 @ 0.00027037 = 158.3873 BTC [+] {5}

19:38:24 jurov: trinque are you interested in running it on pogoplug?

19:38:59 trinque: jurov: the bot part I think I will

19:39:09 trinque: mircea_popescu: what do you think about the deeds being added to the wiki?

19:39:24 trinque: jurov: I have a pogo here

19:39:50 hanbot: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CmWcr0iw

19:39:51 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BV33df )

19:40:18 mircea_popescu: trinque added to the wiki how ?

19:40:20 mircea_popescu: which one ?

19:41:52 nubbins`: hanbot try "deedbot- http://blah"

19:41:54 nubbins`: and also:

19:41:56 nubbins`: !up deedbot-

19:42:11 hanbot: deedbot- http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CmWcr0iw

19:42:12 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BV3xjC )

19:42:12 deedbot-: rejected: 1

19:42:18 nubbins`: man you guise. /nick nubbot

19:42:33 hanbot: lol

19:43:05 nubbins`: maybe deedbot should be auto-voiced by assbot? dem silent fails

19:43:31 trinque: that'd be quicker than waiting for me to give it fancy auth-to-assbot code

19:44:34 nubbins`: !gettrust assbot deedbot-

19:44:34 assbot: deedbot- is not registered in WoT.

19:44:38 nubbins`: well

19:44:58 jurov: anyone interested in hosted pogoplugs w/2 terabyte hdds? or 2x100G ssd?

19:45:38 *: nubbins` has 3 pogoplugs and 2 more in the mail

19:45:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didn't you predict that someone would manufacture automatic impregnatrons ? i distinctly recall an essay concerning such

19:45:47 nubbins`: i'm gonna need babysitting, not hosting ;D

19:45:47 trinque: hanbot: it does not know your public key, which is added in the same fashion

19:45:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha.

19:46:12 nubbins`: man i'm outta touch w/ this new deedbot

19:46:19 nubbins`: i gotta pastebin my public key?

19:46:22 mircea_popescu: the lulzy part is that they try to make it sound feminine :D

19:46:51 mircea_popescu: "The Semenette? is unique because it offers the ability to replace the embedded plastic tubing with each use, eliminating sanitary concerns about mixing liquids you choose to put into the tube."

19:46:53 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you not getting enough fluid ? :D << I survived log catch up time

19:47:02 mircea_popescu: somebody had equal-opportunity thermodynamics class.

19:47:05 asciilifeform: also i predicted a very different machine, that would include the chinese donor 'milking' box in the next room

19:47:06 asciilifeform: in real time

19:47:45 mircea_popescu: mp

19:47:55 mircea_popescu: mp's rule of the junkworld : no machine may be roomsized.

19:48:09 asciilifeform: not room sized in its crate!

19:48:12 mircea_popescu: if orc can't carry it, it already has problems.

19:48:16 asciilifeform: but set up with a wall, or else what is the point

19:48:33 mircea_popescu: free the crates11!

19:48:34 asciilifeform: (what the actual point is, is probably only comprehensible to u.s. pheminist types)

19:48:51 mircea_popescu: i don't think you exactly understand how envy that wears a coat and hides in the hallways works.

19:49:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it could be packaged in a large suitcase, containing a reel of hose.

19:49:04 mircea_popescu: imagine there was a breed of marginally intelligent rabid dogs, and they attacked cars

19:49:07 mircea_popescu: because... can't carry one.

19:49:51 nubbins`: ahaha man this is great.

19:49:58 nubbins`: people putting bids in with 60 seconds left

19:50:12 mircea_popescu: this is kind-of what online action has come to mean i thought.

19:50:30 nubbins`: i'm gonna pretend that wasn't a typo

19:50:33 nubbins`: because this truly is action

19:50:48 nubbins`: anyway, late bids extend the end time by 15 minutes

19:50:53 nubbins`: so it's just people being silly

19:51:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 113700 @ 0.00027094 = 30.8059 BTC [+] {2}

19:51:31 hanbot: deedbot- http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=yRW6nuuQ

19:51:32 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GkHOqc )

19:51:36 deedbot-: imported: EA0FAD90985B3025576A5061454B0FC0BC07B87E

19:51:42 mircea_popescu: lol

19:51:51 hanbot: deedbot- http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CmWcr0iw

19:51:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BV3xjC )

19:51:52 deedbot-: accepted: 1

19:52:03 hanbot: ty trinque, nubbins :)

19:52:16 trinque: np

19:53:17 asciilifeform: envy that wears a coat and hides in the hallways works << also wai wat

19:53:36 asciilifeform: what kind of coat does envy wear ?

19:53:55 mircea_popescu: allow me to show you.

19:54:20 mircea_popescu: http://www.demotivation.us/media/demotivators/demotivation.us__ENVY-It-Wears-a-Coat-and-Hides-in-Hallways-1.jpg

19:54:21 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BV6yAs )

19:54:40 asciilifeform: l0l

19:54:44 asciilifeform: what even is that

19:54:59 asciilifeform: can't tell if fatchick or hippie guy

19:55:00 mircea_popescu: that is the socialist of tomorrow.

19:55:15 mircea_popescu: neither can anyone else tell if fatchick or metrosexual.

19:55:50 mircea_popescu: but there clearly must be some regulation about all this unsanctioned mirror picture taking by self

19:56:57 asciilifeform: what's this to do with impregnatron, though

19:57:13 asciilifeform: (or perhaps i can guess what)

19:57:17 mircea_popescu: there's a reason you can't have a roomsized machine.

19:57:44 mircea_popescu: same reason people attacked big iron and lab cages.

19:57:47 mircea_popescu: which people ? these people.

19:58:00 asciilifeform: only posited 'room' to allow for the lesbianz to avoid seeing the spooge-supplier

19:58:10 mircea_popescu: there's a reason stuff must be ipad even if crapple does not work : orc wants things it can carry

19:58:10 asciilifeform: i'm engineer not psychiatrist.

19:58:23 mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as an engineer that's not a psychiatrist.

19:58:28 asciilifeform: point

19:58:32 mircea_popescu: THIS is what psychiatry actually is

19:58:35 nubbins`: mega point

19:58:37 mircea_popescu: what ballas does is more akin to theatrics.

19:58:58 asciilifeform: 'build me a harness for efficiently tossing nun from helicopter.' -- 'what size nun?' -- 'a number-five.'

19:59:17 mircea_popescu: lol wut ?!

19:59:23 asciilifeform: ^ example

19:59:38 mircea_popescu: now i'm lost lol. explain in simple words ?

19:59:47 asciilifeform: 'mine is not to question why, mine is but to do and die'

19:59:56 mircea_popescu: oh lol

20:00:03 asciilifeform: assumed that apparatus for delivering fresh spoodge into a lesbian is necessary

20:00:07 asciilifeform: proceeded from there.

20:00:32 mircea_popescu: you can't proceed. "this harness is no good" "Why not ?" "it's yellow. duh."

20:00:38 mircea_popescu: ever ran into this ?

20:00:45 asciilifeform: every time.

20:00:53 mircea_popescu: so then stop pretending and learn psychiatry :D

20:00:57 *: asciilifeform learns.

20:02:09 *: mircea_popescu points out that his entire life he's been a transaltor, and perhaps the most successful/best paid/dearliest loved translator ever. started off translating the law to a bunch of burly dudes, then later translated romania to foreigners, then later translated psychiatry to engineers

20:02:14 mircea_popescu: today translating bitcoin to everyone.

20:02:36 nubbins`: lo siento pero no entiendo

20:03:08 nubbins`: i mean uh

20:03:11 mircea_popescu: you know thats funny ?

20:03:11 nubbins`: no speako spanisho

20:03:15 BingoBoingo: jurov: BingoBoingo: interested in "Weekly #b-a"? i need at least someting useful to come out of this << I see no reason why not

20:03:22 asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> today translating bitcoin to everyone. << the book. it must be printed!

20:03:25 mircea_popescu: cause lo siento means sorry, but it also means i hear you in a very unspanish ethymological approach

20:03:43 mircea_popescu: nubbins` call it castejan, suddenly you're refined.

20:03:55 nubbins`: unless you replace the two L's with a J

20:04:25 asciilifeform: 'castejan' is castellano with mouth full ?

20:04:26 nubbins`: if i wanted to be refined, i'd decompose under pressure into hydrocarbons!

20:04:27 mircea_popescu: that's the fuck they do here.

20:04:36 nubbins`: parts of colombia do this too

20:04:37 mircea_popescu: they read ll like it were ascii.

20:04:40 nubbins`: medejin

20:05:03 asciilifeform: 'The one L lama, he's a priest The two L llama, he's a beast ...'

20:05:29 nubbins`: tried alpaca meat, never tried llama

20:06:11 mircea_popescu: me either.

20:06:37 nubbins`: while i'll advance that it was "good", peruvian standard is to beat any steak with a maul before grilling

20:06:46 nubbins`: so i can't really say if it's actually as tender as it seemed

20:06:53 asciilifeform: and what of guinea pig meat ?

20:07:05 nubbins`: cuy? never tried.

20:07:11 asciilifeform: it was always no. 1 in my 'travel to south americas' mental list

20:07:12 nubbins`: was told it's too much work for the amount of meat

20:07:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.QNTR] 6415 @ 0.00037719 = 2.4197 BTC [+]

20:07:46 mircea_popescu: i dunno anyone offering either of these o.O

20:08:01 nubbins`: both popular in peru

20:08:03 asciilifeform: iirc in peru

20:08:03 asciilifeform: aha

20:08:14 nubbins`: viva el peru glorioso!

20:09:32 hanbot: <mircea_popescu> i dunno anyone offering either of these o.O << my butcher sells llamaburgers

20:09:39 mircea_popescu: nuts.

20:09:44 mircea_popescu: are they any good ?

20:10:07 hanbot: i'm not as curious

20:10:24 nubbins`: anything burger-ified is generally edible

20:10:39 *: nubbins` has admittedly made "lamburger helper" more than once :(

20:10:41 mircea_popescu: hanbot no cuy ?

20:10:47 trinque: nubbins`: sounds... delicious

20:10:52 nubbins`: trinque lamb is ++

20:11:03 trinque: yeah, I tend to encounter it via greek food

20:11:05 mircea_popescu: lamb yes.

20:11:06 trinque: love it

20:11:11 mircea_popescu: i mostly eat indian food lamb.

20:11:48 nubbins`: i should make donairs ("doner kebab" for you non-eastern-canadians) with actual lamb soon

20:11:53 nubbins`: beef's good, but i mean

20:14:39 nubbins`: saw this on a wall in a "love park" in lima, stays with me: http://imgur.com/2smAiq6

20:14:39 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1BVbVQf )

20:15:06 asciilifeform: do any of you lot have an x86 or x86_64 bitcoind built -with debug symbols still- in ?

20:15:19 asciilifeform: i'd like one for a quick experiment.

20:16:08 asciilifeform: ideally dynamic build

20:16:10 nubbins`: not i

20:16:14 nubbins`: er hm

20:16:48 nubbins`: i don't think i have debug symbols built in. easy way to check?

20:17:31 asciilifeform: nm found one

20:17:50 nubbins`: young nubs in the amazon: http://imgur.com/gl4vfmS

20:17:51 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1BVcKs3 )

20:19:16 nubbins`: oh man, that was the year i burned my hand! you can see the scar

20:19:20 *: nubbins` reminisces

20:20:10 asciilifeform: let's rephrase

20:20:19 asciilifeform: does anyone have an output of the latest release build

20:20:24 asciilifeform: but with -dynamic-

20:22:10 asciilifeform: ... or not.

20:24:31 *: nubbins` is running latest release build, but assuming static

20:25:12 trinque: asciilifeform: I am building one on amd64 gentoo for ya

20:25:13 hanbot: mircea_popescu hello sir! no cuy at all i tell you!

20:25:34 mircea_popescu: lmao

20:25:49 mircea_popescu: nubbins` well... "static".

20:25:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 114900 @ 0.00027158 = 31.2045 BTC [+] {2}

20:25:56 mircea_popescu: e-static it should be called.

20:26:03 nubbins`: yeah

20:26:06 nubbins`: staticky

20:26:59 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=975256.msg10963987#msg10963987 <<< the winning bid

20:27:00 assbot: Casascius 0.5 BTC Silver Series-2 physical bitcoin: NO RESERVE, 30-DAY AUCTION ... ( http://bit.ly/1BVfHJn )

20:27:11 nubbins`: meat for dinner tonight

20:28:55 asciilifeform: holy everliving phuck, is auditing a cpp-built bin a pain.

20:29:17 mats: found yerself a greater fool eh

20:29:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu said that pets can be trained to do anything - make them do this.

20:29:49 mircea_popescu: you know asciilifeform, i don't hate them. i love them.

20:30:05 asciilifeform: then train'em to do it with love.

20:30:14 mircea_popescu: lol

20:31:22 asciilifeform: anyway, for the record, my experiment concerned the question of how to create a mapping between a source tree and sections of resulting bin

20:31:31 nubbins`: http://imgur.com/jCUBrdF <<< man i got really skinny after two weeks of diarrhoea

20:31:33 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1BVgNES )

20:31:34 asciilifeform: graph-colouring problem.

20:32:06 nubbins`: asciilifeform five colours should be enough for everyone 8)

20:32:17 nubbins`: also, you brit-spell?!

20:32:31 asciilifeform: wat

20:33:06 trinque: he's referring to your dirty communist spelling of "color"

20:33:09 nubbins`: quick: what's the word for the people who live in the houses around you

20:33:13 nubbins`: don't think, just type

20:33:14 asciilifeform: l0l

20:33:20 asciilifeform: i dun spell, me fingerz spell

20:33:30 asciilifeform: nubbins`: schmucks?

20:33:35 nubbins`: bahaha

20:33:42 nubbins`: smarty

20:33:50 nubbins`: neigh*r

20:33:54 asciilifeform: Ah

20:34:05 *: nubbins` genuinely curious

20:34:12 asciilifeform: ou

20:34:18 *: nubbins` applauds softly

20:34:24 nubbins`: wd

20:34:30 asciilifeform: i mean, if we're gonna zap vowels why not let'em all go

20:34:36 asciilifeform: like the semitic langs

20:34:45 asciilifeform: nghbrs

20:34:56 mircea_popescu: neighbour.

20:35:05 mats: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~perl/ndss15_opaque_cfi.pdf

20:35:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1P3qlH3 )

20:35:48 nubbins`: asciilifeform then a couple thou years from now you've got people taking guesses as to the True Name of mrc ppsc

20:35:56 nubbins`: YMMV, YHWH

20:35:57 asciilifeform: mats: is it just me or do 'aslr' and related items give a feeling of 'plugging the wrong end of the funnel' ?

20:36:24 mats: well, yes.

20:36:34 asciilifeform: mats: as in, 'why is the enemy supplying instructions for your cpu to execute in the first place'

20:37:04 asciilifeform: aslr is sorta like building a labyrinth in your house to slow burglars

20:37:08 asciilifeform: between rooms

20:37:49 mats: fun fact: i played starcraft with the guy that patented ASLR.

20:38:11 asciilifeform: mats: how about the guy who patented the stone axe ?

20:38:19 mats: he also went on to write the Control Flow Guard code.

20:38:22 nubbins`: heh

20:38:36 nubbins`: iirc there's an hg wells story about the guy who invented the stone axe.

20:38:40 nubbins`: not a bad read

20:38:41 asciilifeform: it boggles my mind that aslr could be patented

20:38:54 asciilifeform: what year filed ?

20:39:04 mircea_popescu: anything can bve patented

20:39:12 mircea_popescu: and as peole stupidify, more and more tyhings will be.

20:39:14 mats: 2006 iirc

20:39:28 trinque: there's a patent on having a database of products and modifiers which dates to 2000s sometime

20:39:29 mircea_popescu: stuff that was ridiculous to patent in 1850, such as "how to make bread" definitely meets the bar today.

20:39:30 asciilifeform: mr mold, of all people, has watertight prior art from, iirc, '94

20:39:41 asciilifeform: it was his one and only academic paper.

20:39:44 mats: http://www.google.com/patents/US7831791

20:39:45 assbot: Patent US7831791 - Method of address space layout randomization for windows operating systems - Google Patents ... ( http://bit.ly/1BViSki )

20:39:45 trinque: the twist was "synchronizing the data between multiple terminals

20:39:45 nubbins`: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27365/27365-h/27365-h.htm#Page_59

20:39:47 assbot: The Project Gutenberg eBook of Tales of Space and Time, by H. G. Wells ... ( http://bit.ly/1BViSAK )

20:39:53 nubbins`: if anyone's interested

20:39:58 asciilifeform: l0l mentions winblows by name

20:40:11 asciilifeform: at uspto these are called 'wall hanger patents'

20:40:20 asciilifeform: as in, the only thing they are good for is office decoration

20:40:45 trinque: sure that and dragging every entity smaller than a billion plus in revenue into court to die by starvation

20:41:09 asciilifeform: trinque: you need at least a basic troll-grade patent for that

20:41:18 asciilifeform: not any old schizo rant will suffice

20:41:29 asciilifeform: contrary to popular belief

20:41:36 trinque: til there's an even lower tier of "valid" patents

20:41:51 trinque: I've seen insane, *insane* cases in the hospitality software space

20:41:54 asciilifeform: 'designpatent' ?

20:42:05 trinque: prior art from the dawn of computing type patents

20:42:31 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it occurs to me that if you spend some time now designing and patenting gasenwagens

20:42:38 mircea_popescu: you may end up controlling that space

20:42:40 asciilifeform: prior art, if can be authenticated, invalidates patent. retroactively.

20:43:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: except that usg owns the patents (war trophies!)

20:43:04 nubbins`: heee

20:43:05 trinque: asciilifeform: jury of "peers"

20:43:43 trinque: this prior art thing if it actually worked would burn like a grease fire through 99.9% of software patents

20:43:53 asciilifeform: 100%

20:43:55 trinque: the standards for "novel" seem trivial

20:44:19 asciilifeform: anyway patents are a passenger on the burning atomic dirigible of usg

20:44:36 asciilifeform: all of'em.

20:45:23 mircea_popescu: not all of them.

20:45:39 mircea_popescu: seeing how you called whatever phrase a mpism

20:45:53 asciilifeform: unless a patent is so poorly constructed as to be thrown out immediately, any patent litigation in usaworld is a contest of bank accounts.

20:46:07 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i didn't say 'authorships' but -patents- as we know'em.

20:46:23 asciilifeform: as in the weirdo crown monopolies.

20:46:28 mircea_popescu: well that.

20:48:10 asciilifeform: incidentally, did anyone read the 'buffoon's tale' link ?

20:48:19 asciilifeform: perfect allegory for usg.

20:48:27 asciilifeform: and its works.

20:49:53 trinque: asciilifeform: current release busts for me on uint32_t as well

20:50:20 asciilifeform: trinque: patched? and if so, how ?

20:50:37 trinque: have not made any attempt to fix it yet; have to attend to something else first

20:50:40 asciilifeform: trinque: post barf plz.

20:50:42 trinque: k

20:50:47 asciilifeform: along with os/gcc/etc

20:51:47 mats: ;;seen FabianB

20:51:47 gribble: FabianB was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 17 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 35 minutes, and 18 seconds ago: <FabianB> not down but very slow it seems

20:52:04 mircea_popescu: scoopbot fetch

20:52:08 mircea_popescu: scoopbot -fetch

20:52:32 trinque: asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/01HWQYM.txt

20:52:33 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BVmpz3 )

20:53:07 trinque: asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/1V47S94.txt

20:53:08 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BVmylR )

20:53:14 asciilifeform: trinque: aha, precisely what happens to the published (without weirdo patches) release on my boxes.

20:53:45 asciilifeform: nubbins` et al ^^^^^^

20:54:06 trinque: asciilifeform: do you use a hardened toolchain?

20:54:26 asciilifeform: hardened how ?

20:54:33 trinque: gentoo hardened profile

20:54:40 asciilifeform: nope

20:54:49 trinque: dunno why that would magically poof in a header defining that type

20:54:59 asciilifeform: wait, did it ?!

20:55:17 trinque: no, saying I don't know why that would be relevant

20:55:19 asciilifeform: because your dump is quite the same as mine

20:56:02 trinque: mine is busted as yours

20:56:07 asciilifeform: incidentally, i don't like 'selinux'

20:56:12 trinque: wondering what's different about the debian

20:56:27 trinque: asciilifeform: yeah I don't use it

20:56:28 mats: do you like grsec?

20:56:30 asciilifeform: i invoke mircea_popescu's maxim that 'if there is anything good in it, it will have to be reinvented naively'

20:56:45 trinque: hardened here just means having things like stack protection turned on

20:56:50 mats: and why don't you like sel

20:56:56 mats: selinux

20:57:05 asciilifeform: mats: guess.

20:57:08 trinque: in my case it seems like a vast, complex surface to deal with

20:57:18 trinque: seems also that within that complexity you could hide nefarious things

20:58:04 mats: i know why i don't like selinux, but i have a feeling we don't intersect

20:58:10 mats: lemme guess: NSA?

20:58:12 asciilifeform: aha.

20:58:20 asciilifeform: but not merely the fact of.

20:58:43 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1084056 << why would fb care ?!

20:58:43 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 13:34:48; lobbes: I posted obamaz magic decree to my facebook. Quite expectedly, no one cares.

20:59:02 asciilifeform: mats: grsec >> but the sheer nonsensicalness of pretending that kernel can limit what kernel can do. consider this claim: 'Through PaX's UDEREF and KERNEXEC features, grsecurity forces any userland data access to go through an approved accessor and rejects any attempt to execute userland code in kernel context.'

20:59:04 trinque: nobody I know cares

20:59:20 trinque: cept those here and a handful of clever meatspace guys

20:59:21 asciilifeform: mats: i can trivially make mincemeat of this by issuing raw dma cycles.

21:00:31 asciilifeform: mats: selinux and similar are exemplary of usg approach to 'seek00r1ty' - add layers of 'granular' bureaucracy to the os

21:00:45 asciilifeform: as if this did something tangible beyond making it even -less- fit-in-head.

21:01:01 asciilifeform: and even further discouraging genuine audit, as if this were possible or even necessary

21:01:26 mats: i dunno about that second part, but in general i agree with you

21:01:50 asciilifeform: it isn't just 'voodoo taint' from nsa.

21:02:12 *: asciilifeform doesn't practice voodoo

21:03:12 trinque: this seems to be why openbsd just has chroot, bsd has fancy jails or whatever, and now linux has Containerz (TM)

21:03:20 trinque: just make fucking chroot work

21:03:30 trinque: that and a working firewall

21:03:31 asciilifeform: but overall, folks who unrepentantly spout nonsense about one thing, damage their credibility re: other things.

21:03:32 mircea_popescu: you can't make chroot work

21:03:35 asciilifeform: ^

21:03:38 trinque: whysat

21:03:40 mircea_popescu: that's the dirty secret behind 20 years of "linux"

21:03:43 trinque: oh on linux

21:03:44 mircea_popescu: because, conceptually, it is nonsense.

21:03:55 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually it is the dirty secret behind 40 yrs of unix

21:03:57 asciilifeform: but yes.

21:03:57 mircea_popescu: there's a deep reason permissions don't fucking work

21:04:06 mircea_popescu: that reason is that intelligent people do not wish to spend their time working on idiocy

21:04:18 mircea_popescu: and they do wish to tell themselves that they can ever work on "something else"

21:04:24 mircea_popescu: because hey, engineers not psychiatrists, right ?

21:04:57 asciilifeform: unix perms are the proverbial 'pissing-section in swimming pool'

21:05:04 trinque: lol, I understand

21:05:31 trinque: makes sense.

21:05:37 mircea_popescu: that's what the jwz dood quite typically told me : that he "doesn't care about whatever political bone i have toi pick"

21:05:43 asciilifeform: for those who don't follow the antics of lunatics: usg is -obsessed- with domain segregation

21:05:55 mircea_popescu: as if that's what happened, i was sitting on an exercise ball one day and spontaneously decided hey, let me make a political party and pick bones!

21:05:55 asciilifeform: to the point of commissioning $maxint cpu archs that pretend to do it

21:06:32 trinque: ah that makes it very clear.

21:06:37 asciilifeform: ^ to a muppet, any deviation from his muppetology is a schizo paroxysm of irrational

21:06:39 trinque: "pretend to do it" << is exactly the useful thing there

21:07:05 asciilifeform: to jwz et al, google simply 'is' - like the sun.

21:07:13 mircea_popescu: right.

21:08:18 asciilifeform: to briefly return to thread, it is not a -total- waste of time to learn what usg imagines 'security' - for its private uses - means.

21:08:28 asciilifeform: even if from purely psychiatric view

21:08:40 asciilifeform: !s what colour are your bits

21:08:41 assbot: 0 results for 'what colour are your bits' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=what+colour+are+your+bits

21:08:49 asciilifeform: http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

21:08:50 assbot: What Colour are your bits? - Ansuz - mskala's home page ... ( http://bit.ly/1BVqe7l )

21:08:53 asciilifeform: ^ that

21:08:58 asciilifeform: and we -did- it here

21:09:21 asciilifeform: 'In Paranoia, everything has a colour-coded security level (from Infrared up to Ultraviolet) and everybody has a clearance on the same scale. You are not allowed to touch, or have any dealings with, anything that exceeds your clearance. If you're a Red Troubleshooter, you're not allowed to walk through an Orange door. Formally, you're not really supposed to even know about the existence of anything above your clearance. An

21:09:21 asciilifeform: yone who breaks the rules is a Commie Mutant Traitor, subject to the death penalty. Much of the game revolves around the consequences of the security levels. For instance, Friend Computer might assign a team of Red Troubleshooters to re-paint a hallway that ought to be Orange but was painted Yellow by mistake the Commie Mutant Traitors. It's quite likely in such a case that the Troubleshooters will all end up shooting each o

21:09:21 asciilifeform: ther for treason against Friend Computer, since none of them are allowed to touch the paint, go near the hallway, or talk about their mission, and they're all charged with enforcing the rules on one another.'

21:09:24 asciilifeform: ^ for the record.

21:10:03 mircea_popescu: lol notbad. what is this ?

21:10:09 asciilifeform: the colour essay

21:10:13 asciilifeform: !s monolith

21:10:14 assbot: 9 results for 'monolith' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=monolith

21:10:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu even wrote an essay on the subject.

21:12:24 BingoBoingo: http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--cfqe4JUp--/fqceoem5sfd8khvzkpkc.jpg

21:12:25 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BVrkju )

21:13:13 mircea_popescu: lol first time this decade ?

21:13:18 cazalla: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1084247 <<< to be fair, you didn't try until 4-5 hours ago

21:13:18 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 15:59:59; thestringpuller: haven't been able to contact cazalla

21:14:23 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Apparently he set the record

21:15:26 mircea_popescu: nice lordosis on the chick... that babe knows how to party.

21:16:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46800 @ 0.0002719 = 12.7249 BTC [+]

21:17:21 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-10-2014#883664

21:17:21 assbot: Logged on 19-10-2014 18:32:52; asciilifeform: engineers, who (as shown by the 'monolith' gedankenexperiment, search logs) often do not really apprehend how lizard-reich and its subordinate bureaucracies really think.

21:17:23 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1084081 <<< this, for the record, is kinda ridiculous.

21:17:23 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 14:05:13; lobbes: I'd like to believe if I just focus on myself and amass enough wealth I can weasel my way through time

21:17:32 mircea_popescu: might as well make your strategy "to get really really fat"

21:17:41 asciilifeform: 'too fat to hang'

21:18:07 asciilifeform: (some prisoner in usa got a temporary stay of execution on this argument.)

21:18:19 asciilifeform: 'i wus sentenced to hang not heads-off'

21:18:19 cazalla: !rate thestringpuller 1 overpromised and underdelivered on task he set himself for qntra

21:18:19 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/0e2233d7dfc2e173

21:20:48 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1084116 << whoever the fuck came up with this "binary module loading" bs should be found and named.

21:20:48 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 14:54:13; assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 03:26:58; nubbins`: "glibc uses libnss to support a number of different providers for address resolution services. Unfortunately, you cannot statically link libnss, as exactly what providers it loads depends on the local system's configuration."

21:20:58 mircea_popescu: i can see why this would be useful as an alternative method for very peculiar situations

21:21:14 mircea_popescu: but otherwise, in vast majority of cases, libnss SHOULD JUST CONTAIN ALL!

21:21:23 mircea_popescu: like fucking code is supposed to do.

21:21:40 asciilifeform: many things 'should' xxxxx.

21:22:10 mircea_popescu: no.

21:22:10 asciilifeform: but the list of 'should but doesn't' appears to grow, grow, every time we turn over a rock.

21:22:20 cazalla: !verify assbot:cazalla.rate.thestringpuller.1:16ae1454fd113b8cc0c781069043ec4cfadbdd32f55f8f028415f9d88daa29df

21:22:21 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for thestringpuller from 2 to 1 with note: overpromised and underdelivered on task he set himself for qntra

21:22:24 asciilifeform: to no surprise of mine

21:22:32 mircea_popescu: that you don't randomly stick binary in my ass is not a "many things"

21:22:33 mircea_popescu: this is rape.

21:23:34 asciilifeform: reminds me

21:23:50 asciilifeform: iirc i killed 'loadable modules' on pogotron but forgot to disable the now-useless mod utils.

21:23:56 asciilifeform: oughta be in the next patch.

21:24:19 mats: 2M s.mpoe buy wall @ 0.00027

21:24:22 asciilifeform: (loadable modules are good for kernel dev work and really not much else.)

21:25:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you even have a clue why the fuck libnss is made that way ?

21:25:11 mircea_popescu: is it to fit it on w/e arm shits ?

21:25:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in so far as i can tell, the problem in question is entirely shot in the head by my dns removal patch.

21:25:23 mircea_popescu: is it to load whatever early ityeration of nsa diddle in systems ?

21:25:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i cannot fathom why it was made this way, other than for the usual reasons.

21:25:44 asciilifeform: there is no conceivable technical justification for it, beyond sloth.

21:26:34 mircea_popescu: who did this ?

21:26:36 asciilifeform: there is also the overall 'rust' resulting from no one ever building static anything whasoever for years.

21:26:57 mircea_popescu: if whoever the fuck is responsible for this crapever shows up in wot he's getting my -.

21:28:06 asciilifeform: one day we will have a simon wiesenthal of crapware.

21:28:26 mircea_popescu: pure anomie, this shit. idiots "doocracying" with no conception of right and wrong whatsoever.

21:28:39 asciilifeform: hunt the gnomes and drag them kicking, screaming, to the stake.

21:28:40 mircea_popescu: "i have tried and so nobody should criticize the steaming pile of dumb dung "

21:30:16 []bot: Bet placed: 10 BTC for No on "BTC to top $700 before 1st July" http://bitbet.us/bet/1128/ Odds: 10(Y):90(N) by coin, 10(Y):90(N) by weight. Total bet: 142.30184834 BTC. Current weight: 73,553.

21:30:17 []bot: Bet placed: 3 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $150 before July" http://bitbet.us/bet/1133/ Odds: 13(Y):87(N) by coin, 14(Y):86(N) by weight. Total bet: 9.61572615 BTC. Current weight: 94,475.

21:30:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: don't expect them to walk in voluntarily

21:30:43 mircea_popescu: i don't expect anything.

21:30:54 asciilifeform: ^ the correct thing to expect.

21:31:25 mircea_popescu: "unfortunately, the way we made this foss software is that it behaves exactly like windows"

21:31:33 asciilifeform: i actually find it interesting how astonishingly well-clustered the 'digerati' set is.

21:31:34 mircea_popescu: "there's nothing wrong with pki, it just fixes dns."

21:31:47 asciilifeform: zawinski lives next to lanier in my head and this is not accidental nor misleading

21:31:52 asciilifeform: even if they never met in the flesh

21:31:58 mircea_popescu: you KNOW this shit even got to be used in the first place because usg said so.

21:32:25 mircea_popescu: "why do we have dns ? it sucks! " "yes but that's how nsa could figure out how to diddle via libnss"

21:32:45 mircea_popescu: "so why are you all pushing pki ? it's fucktarded beyond reason" "no look, it has a whiff of salami right in this spot!"

21:33:42 asciilifeform: in many cases (quite arguably dns included) the turd was an ad-hoc hack from the days of arpa but was cemented in place because guess-why.

21:33:59 asciilifeform: this is a fine point but not unimportant zoologically

21:34:11 asciilifeform: because it is uncommon for the enemy to -invent- a turd ab initio

21:34:18 mircea_popescu: and that, incidentally, is the objection ot poettering : it's not a matter of "doing". the man simply has no conception of right and wrong.

21:34:22 trinque: asciilifeform: so there's u_int32_t defined in sys/types.h but not uint32_t; I would be interested to see what sys/types.h holds for the other folks

21:34:22 asciilifeform: it is normally fished out of a pre-existing latrine.

21:34:23 mircea_popescu: he might as well be a monkey.

21:34:49 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just pick one of the preexisting sluts and then prevent washing, sure.

21:34:52 trinque: comment above: /* But these were defined by ISO C without the first `_'. */

21:34:59 mircea_popescu: i will have the heads of the ab-initio people tho.

21:35:57 asciilifeform: there's u_int32_t defined in sys/types.h but not uint32_t << ahahahahaha.

21:36:30 asciilifeform: someone actually wrote that.

21:36:33 asciilifeform: with a straight face.

21:36:38 asciilifeform: and, would probably come up with 'reasons'

21:36:54 asciilifeform: i wonder what would be his 'reasons' after a few days of hanging upside-down over a cobra pit.

21:37:32 asciilifeform: (or insert a more appropriate prelude to a punishment to fit the crime)

21:38:04 *: trinque begins a debootstrap to see what it craps in sys/types.h

21:38:17 asciilifeform: soooooooo many ways to arrange four bytes.

21:38:34 trinque: asciilifeform: stop trying to stifle people's creativity

21:41:07 asciilifeform: 'friar sank to his knees! sacred sensation! miracle proclaimed! blessed defecation!'

21:42:46 trinque: asciilifeform: said poettering to the porcelain, parting is such sweet sorrow

21:43:23 trinque: debootstrap failed mysteriously the first time

21:43:26 asciilifeform: trinque: from earlier link

21:43:31 asciilifeform: failed how

21:43:33 trinque: I was just being creative

21:43:36 asciilifeform: l0l

21:43:43 trinque: asciilifeform: couple files didn't download

21:43:47 trinque: reran, went better

21:44:18 jurov: http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Name-Service-Switch.html#Name-Service-Switch

21:44:19 assbot: The GNU C Library: Name Service Switch ... ( http://bit.ly/19MOLU5 )

21:44:26 jurov: nss was added to "remove hacks"

21:44:29 jurov: hahaha

21:44:35 asciilifeform: mega-l0l!

21:46:08 mircea_popescu: i don't think nss per se is the problem here however

21:46:19 mircea_popescu: the idea of loading binary modules and breaking static builds is not exactly = to nss.

21:46:38 mircea_popescu: you could have it implemented sanely just as well.

21:46:42 asciilifeform: could.

21:46:57 asciilifeform: just as you could have north america ruled by a sane ottoman empire.

21:46:59 asciilifeform: or whatnot.

21:47:03 jurov: i guess they wanted to avoid running standalone process and whatnot

21:47:15 mircea_popescu: you don't even ened a motherfucking process.

21:47:27 mircea_popescu: dude holy hell, no configured file ever existed before ?

21:47:35 asciilifeform: jurov: appreciate that what we are attempting with static build is like digging out one of those lugers ru kids routinely find in the ground and trying to fire it

21:47:48 asciilifeform: it's solid rust

21:47:59 asciilifeform: can barely make out which way the barrel points

21:48:27 jurov: butbutbut we need to support dns resolving with mongodb(r)(tm)!!!

21:49:22 mircea_popescu: nuts.

21:49:29 mircea_popescu: and that this made it into c...

21:49:33 jurov: and without(gasp) recompiling libc or running dns servers!

21:49:38 mircea_popescu: FFS!

21:50:20 asciilifeform: fortunately we don't have to fill this swamp today

21:50:25 asciilifeform: apply dns-zap patch.

21:50:57 asciilifeform: bitcoin does not need dns for anythign!

21:53:10 nubbins`: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000040.html

21:53:11 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/19MPtAN )

21:53:15 nubbins`: for those just catching up

21:53:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.QNTR] 4470 @ 0.00037719 = 1.686 BTC [+]

21:53:55 nubbins`: now, lemme give this a whirl

21:54:10 asciilifeform: careful with that one

21:54:27 asciilifeform: once you dump dns seeder, you gotta have some live nodes (!!!) in the seed list

21:54:33 asciilifeform: which, in turn, should not be the hardcoded idiocy

21:54:38 asciilifeform: but passed on commmandline

21:54:54 asciilifeform: i never got around to shitting out a patch to remove the hardcoded seedz

21:55:15 asciilifeform: ALSO

21:55:29 asciilifeform: now that i read that patch, i notice that it does not eliminate -all- occurrences of the dns crapolade

21:55:32 *: nubbins` perks ears

21:55:36 asciilifeform: there is yet another

21:55:55 asciilifeform: iirc, in the spot where the thing learns own ip.

21:56:15 asciilifeform: bbl, gotta buy food.

21:56:19 nubbins`: what's it sending a POST request to whatismyip.com? :D

21:56:40 asciilifeform: ^ dns query !!

21:57:25 trinque: holy shit no one knows why there's both a u_int32_t and a uint32_t

21:57:30 trinque: the latter is defined in c99

21:57:49 nubbins`: prob because one asshole somewhere along the line had a build error

21:57:54 nubbins`: and "this seems to fix it"

21:58:02 trinque: all I can find is derps going "just include ..."

21:58:06 trinque: NO SHIT

21:58:25 nubbins`: i suppose github could tell you who committed it the first time

21:58:43 nubbins`: i don't keep a list of this type of person, mp may be interested enough to look

21:59:01 jurov: may have been satoshi himself

21:59:23 nubbins`: may have been there from the beginning

22:00:00 trinque: this forum post thing where people pop off with some tape fix rather than explaining what's going on

22:00:03 trinque: blowtorch

22:01:40 cazalla: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2015#1084788 dude, what's in your ear?

22:01:41 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2015 20:31:31; nubbins`: http://imgur.com/jCUBrdF <<< man i got really skinny after two weeks of diarrhoea

22:02:40 trinque: asciilifeform: could boost be pulling or not pulling this type in based on some kind of config magic?

22:02:41 cazalla: lucky i am not otw to conf, i would so attach a padlock to your ear :P

22:03:47 nubbins`: you could try

22:05:25 trinque: in my /usr/include I see for example this "nettle" thing doing typedef u_int32_t uint32_t;

22:06:00 nubbins`: o.O

22:08:05 nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/hOH0HCLl.png << silkscreened biz cards on 160# black paper

22:08:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/19MQIzU )

22:08:23 trinque: nubbins`: those look great.

22:08:28 nubbins`: ty

22:08:39 nubbins`: really nice texture on the black parts too

22:08:50 nubbins`: dat subtle relief

22:11:51 punkman: s

22:13:48 nubbins`: ok alf i'm applying all 3 of your patches to a fresh, should know one way or another in an hour or so

22:17:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36956 @ 0.0002719 = 10.0483 BTC [+]

22:21:04 danielpbarron: !up wpalczynski

22:21:58 danielpbarron: nubbins`, nice card

22:22:08 nubbins`: thanks, hand-printed

22:22:43 *: trinque can suddenly not paste into chrome

22:23:14 nubbins`: typedef paste u_paste32_t;

22:23:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64650 @ 0.00027024 = 17.471 BTC [-] {2}

22:24:04 trinque: nubbins`: pls don't trigger me

22:24:21 trinque: I actually typedef'd the missing type to see what happened, and now it's pissed about something else

22:24:42 trinque: would love to show ya >:)

22:26:02 nubbins`: hey, pastebin is hungry

22:27:59 trinque: nubbins`: http://dpaste.com/136CA5Z.txt

22:28:00 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/19MS6mi )

22:28:36 nubbins`: trinque try alf's patch

22:28:43 trinque: link?

22:29:27 nubbins`: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150401/asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation_8685d541f20bcfe8d8cc9fefba663dd861f7b237.patch

22:29:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/19MSaCD )

22:29:41 trinque: ty

22:29:57 trinque: heh yeah I was derping through exactly what he fixed

22:30:05 nubbins`: ah, i wouldn't say it's fixed

22:30:13 trinque: well, he was a notch closer anyway

22:30:16 nubbins`: regardless, try again

22:30:17 nubbins`: yes

22:34:08 trinque: nubbins`: kerboom -> http://dpaste.com/33G6CY8.txt

22:34:09 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GQAjbi )

22:36:55 trinque: starting clean and logging all output

22:37:14 trinque: but it looked like the stuff not being linked *was* built

22:37:55 nubbins`: i am also at the "cannot find -lssl, -lcrypto" stage

22:38:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28800 @ 0.00027 = 7.776 BTC [-]

22:42:42 trinque: nubbins`: what does export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$OURLIBS/lib under the rest of the exports do for you?

22:42:52 trinque: I'm waiting on mine to rebuild

22:42:58 trinque: this is in auto.sh

22:43:41 asciilifeform: <nubbins`> ok alf i'm applying all 3 of your patches << wai wat, 3?!

22:44:22 asciilifeform: the integer retardation patch includes the one from portatron

22:45:27 asciilifeform: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.8.4/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.8.4/../../../../lib64/libpthread.a(pthread_cond_wait.o): relocation R_X86_64_32 against `__gcc_personality_v0' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC

22:45:27 asciilifeform: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.8.4/../../../../lib64/libpthread.a: error adding symbols: Bad value

22:45:29 asciilifeform: ^ wat.

22:45:37 asciilifeform: (from trinque's)

22:46:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59100 @ 0.0002719 = 16.0693 BTC [+]

22:50:54 nubbins`: <+asciilifeform> the integer retardation patch includes the one from portatron <<< o look

22:51:08 asciilifeform: ?

22:51:51 asciilifeform: it should go without saying that asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation_8685d541f20bcfe8d8cc9fefba663dd861f7b237.patch is not a tree candidate !

22:51:58 nubbins`: :D

22:51:59 asciilifeform: i probably should have specified this in the signed text

22:52:18 asciilifeform: but stating it here for anyone who did not immediately grasp this.

22:52:44 trinque: I dunno what that link error is.

22:52:46 nubbins`: while we're at it, do not operate chainsaws w/ your genitals

22:55:57 danielpbarron: nubbins`, how many of those birds of newfoundland books do you have left? / remind me to get one of those if/when the qntra cards get sent out

22:56:19 nubbins`: danielpbarron we'll be making them for as long as people buy them. i'll set one aside for ya

22:56:26 nubbins`: your if/when is currently an if

22:57:01 nubbins`: i floated a design, nobody was too fussy, nothing else suggested

22:57:14 *: nubbins` generally doesn't do design work on open-ended spec

23:01:44 nubbins`: :o

23:10:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54650 @ 0.00027 = 14.7555 BTC [-]

23:19:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16146 @ 0.0002719 = 4.3901 BTC [+]

23:38:11 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/mpex-smpoe-march-2015-statement/

23:38:12 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/qntra-sqntr-march-2015-statement/

23:38:18 scoopbot: New post on The Whet by han@thewhet: http://thewhet.net/2015/line-betting-on-bitbet-march-2014/

23:40:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44554 @ 0.00027 = 12.0296 BTC [-]

23:45:55 hanbot: lol i can't year.

23:46:08 BingoBoingo: !b 2

23:46:11 assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0HEN57S.txt )

23:53:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53400 @ 0.0002719 = 14.5195 BTC [+]

23:55:13 cazalla: mircea_popescu, you might need to edit the s.qntr post

23:59:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55400 @ 0.0002719 = 15.0633 BTC [+]