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Transcript for 02-12-2014, 2222 lines:

00:04:27 BingoBoingo: Neanderthals died for their socialism

00:04:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33250 @ 0.00032897 = 10.9383 BTC [-] {2}

00:05:42 mircea_popescu: it's nto as simple as a headcount.

00:06:00 mircea_popescu: every single snail leaves a fossil. few cephalopodes do. etc.

00:08:11 BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2nz8yi/coin_fire_response_to_gaw_miners_cd/cmidaov

00:08:13 assbot: Coin Fire Response to GAW Miners C&D : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1HT2QN4 )

00:09:49 BingoBoingo: One step forward, two steps back with these coinfire people.

00:12:07 undata: danielpbarron: you just wanted to shout "bible is right!" eh?

00:12:16 undata: strange, I didn't expect to see that around here

00:15:27 mats_cd03: wow, scribd is even worse than before

00:17:23 mircea_popescu: http://www.xenosystems.net/chaos-patch-38/ << this guy, that apparently binges on fraudsters, linked http://fraudsters.com/2014/of-mendacity-mold-bugs-and-other-things/

00:17:25 assbot: Outside in - Involvements with reality » Blog Archive » Chaos Patch (#38) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HT47Uk )

00:17:26 assbot: Of mendacity, mold, bugs and other things. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1HT47Up )

00:17:30 mircea_popescu: and so i tried to read that thing with the eyes of a stranger

00:17:37 mircea_popescu: holy hell i have no idea what i'm even saying.

00:18:02 mircea_popescu: decimation A more interesting question is: how does 'black music' go from Louis Armstrong to thug rap in 50 years?

00:18:02 mircea_popescu: mircea popescu The white hierarchy supporting society collapsed ? How does the French underground go from rengaine to "Irreversible" ? WW2. Most of the better Frenchmen got shot.

00:18:10 mircea_popescu: holy shit how could that make any sense to anyone other than me ?

00:19:07 mircea_popescu: i specifically meant rengaine as a reference to "Quand je m'endors berc?e par une rengaine j'suis soudain r?veill?e par des cris"

00:19:19 mircea_popescu: which is part of dans ma rue, this thing : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUByZb1CkXM

00:19:20 assbot: Edith PIAF Dans ma rue - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1HT4m1Q )

00:19:30 mircea_popescu: a song about forced prostitution and hunger in earlier france.

00:19:43 mircea_popescu: now who the fuck could hav efigured that out. i gotta make more footnotes.

00:20:10 mircea_popescu: undata yes, danielpbarron is a biblical literalist.

00:22:42 mircea_popescu: and irreversible is of course that atrocious production with the 10 minute bellucci rape scene.

00:23:46 mircea_popescu: (who, incidentally, only does movies if she's raped in them, for some reason. perhaps with the exception of that one where she kills herself at dinner with her ex.)

00:23:59 gernika: mircea_popescu: I find that if I follow your hints, I can understand more of each of your posts. 1. Research all references not understood. 2. Read multiple times. 3. Get better at reading by learning what words actually mean (that is, learning the etymology of each).

00:24:28 mircea_popescu: gernika i had a slavegirl apply this process to a few pages of shaw. took her A YEAR

00:24:46 mircea_popescu: course, it did markedly improve pretty much any language-related cognitive function in the process.

00:24:53 mircea_popescu: but still. takes a while.

00:25:06 gernika: That seems reasonable. I believe I'm looking at 5 to 10 years of work.

00:25:20 mircea_popescu: sounds like a fucking degree.

00:25:37 hanbot: mircea_popescu she wasn't raped in coppola's dracula, ftr.

00:25:41 gernika: Well, first I have to learn Greek. Then Latin.

00:26:46 mircea_popescu: hanbot well... you are aware vampirism is a rape metaphor yes ?

00:27:21 mircea_popescu: "Why are you locking up these important notices in a PDF turd hosted on a site with Facebook integration." BingoBoingo because they seek external validation, and they believe inaccessibility and hermetism are a good proxy. like all ignoramuses ever do believe.

00:27:23 hanbot: in that case, i suppose she rapes a baby.

00:27:40 mircea_popescu: this is a cognate of the guy who bought glasses to read. because that's what he was missing.

00:27:51 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1000 @ 0.0011501 = 1.1501 BTC [-] {2}

00:28:53 mircea_popescu: hanbot which is this one anyway ? the 90s thing with ryder ?

00:29:05 hanbot: mhm

00:29:22 mircea_popescu: o yeah she was one of the brides huh

00:29:26 mircea_popescu: the one with the nice tits.

00:30:59 hanbot: mircea_popescu you oughta do billings for films

00:31:22 mircea_popescu: it's one of the skills i reserve for the scavenger world to come.

00:31:48 mircea_popescu: i will be this codgery old guy with an ellaborate cough, an old german trenchcoat, aviator eye goggles and a sorta-functioning projector

00:32:02 mircea_popescu: doing hand drawn posters for re-runs of old films.

00:32:34 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2TEXDFF.txt )

00:32:34 BingoBoingo: !b 3

00:32:52 mircea_popescu: anyway, it's incredible how much bellucci looks like an italian matron as she ages.

00:33:26 mircea_popescu: spitting fucking image, she could have sucked cock off via flaminia sixteen centuries ago, only her hair'd be different.

00:35:05 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> the one with the nice tits. << indeed.

00:36:00 mircea_popescu: how did that go, "if your nipples don't float halfway between your chin and your belly button, your tits ain't big enough"

00:37:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34800 @ 0.00033373 = 11.6138 BTC [+]

00:41:41 ben_vulpes: undata, danielpbarron: things on the manifold of reality find trajectories of stability away from each other because niche specialization

00:44:10 undata: ben_vulpes: well said; I have my doubts as to whether this particular one is stable

00:51:32 gernika: Reading at a higher level seems akin to using higher level programming languages. The ability to pack more information into fewer lexical units is powerful. Just realized this.

00:55:34 nubbins`: dat jargon

00:56:12 mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, species exist for the same exact reason and through apparently the same mechanism subatomic particles "exist"

00:56:44 mircea_popescu: ie, as training wheels on a function wave.

01:03:44 cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/12/moneybeat-a-wsj-blog-confirms-gaw-miners-is-a-ponzi/

01:03:45 assbot: MoneyBeat, A WSJ Blog, Confirms GAW Miners Is A Ponzi | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1zaVcId )

01:06:08 mircea_popescu: cazalla can easily be read as "one order was this much".

01:07:12 cazalla: easy for him to confirm the rest or for bitmain to do so if they respond to my email

01:07:55 cazalla: anyway, his timeline is still fucked up, bitmain didn't even ship scrpt miners back in october nor can you mine scypt coins with sha256 asics despite him claiming otherwise

01:08:06 cazalla: only a scammer would mix the 2 up

01:20:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62100 @ 0.0003286 = 20.4061 BTC [-]

01:26:50 mircea_popescu: that's a point.

01:26:51 mircea_popescu: or two.

01:27:28 mircea_popescu: "Josh Garza ? What we can talk about is everybody, so, we quite literally use every major manufacturer in the world, so, bitmain, we're actually in discussions right now with bitfury, *inaudible*, I mean, every single company. We are in the process of beginning to build our own chip, we do have hardware that is not publicly available that created economies of scale for us, kinda all over the place, probably a less gl

01:27:28 mircea_popescu: amorous answer than you were looking for but we actually are putting the finishing touches on one of our biggest data centres yet in the next couple of weeks, I actually spoke to someone a few days ago who saw it and he's never seen that many miners and flash computers in one place."

01:27:37 mircea_popescu: ew.

01:36:34 adlai: flash... computers?

01:37:05 adlai: ... computers with flashplayer installed?

01:39:45 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: training wheels on a function wave?

01:50:22 decimation: maybe they hacked those chinese flash cards with onboard microcontrollers for write leveling/usb to compute

01:51:42 decimation: re: regressive tax < pete_dushenski made me aware that Russia actually has a regressive tax, probably for the same reason you think it is a good idea - the rich are more likely to pay

01:52:25 undata: decimation: 13%, the communists!

01:53:18 decimation: yeah, plus that highly regressive 'social security' tax

01:53:27 decimation: and vat

01:54:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54850 @ 0.00033481 = 18.3643 BTC [+] {2}

01:54:50 thestringpuller: ;;seen jurov

01:54:50 gribble: jurov was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 hours and 51 seconds ago: <jurov> where's notary?

01:55:01 decimation: !up archLinuxUser

01:55:07 thestringpuller: ;;later tell jurov withdrawals

01:55:07 gribble: The operation succeeded.

01:55:15 undata: decimation: woah, 28% on the lowest tier of UST?

01:55:27 decimation: yeah, but there's a cap

01:56:03 undata: so it seems "half" is the usual amount of taxation wherever you are

01:56:12 undata: it just comes with different names

01:56:37 decimation: no, the 28% only applies to the first $16k of income

01:57:04 decimation: although it appears that there are other taxes depending on which region one resides

01:59:10 ben_vulpes: ;;ticker

01:59:11 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 375.91, Best ask: 376.95, Bid-ask spread: 1.04000, Last trade: 376.98, 24 hour volume: 7114.68684683, 24 hour low: 373.03, 24 hour high: 382.31, 24 hour vwap: 378.26456952

02:04:39 decimation: !up xinxiwang

02:04:48 xinxiwang: thanks

02:05:00 decimation: np. I take it that you hail from singapore?

02:05:42 cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/12/mastercards-submission-to-economics-references-committee-now-available/

02:05:43 assbot: MasterCard's Submission To Economics References Committee Now Available | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1v84HDK )

02:05:43 cazalla: pretty lulzy

02:05:50 xinxiwang: right. I am from SG.

02:06:22 decimation: xinxiwang: I've always wanted to ask a singaporean what he thought about politics in the us compared to politics in sg

02:06:47 ben_vulpes: "Currently, digital currencies lack the basic protections consumers have come to expect when transacting online. For example, contrary to a consumer's experience when paying wit a MasterCard product, if a consumer uses digital currency to make a purchase on line and the merchant fails to deliver the goods, the consumer has no recourse through the digital currency's network." << oh lordy

02:06:51 asciilifeform: so here's a poor man's mega-lol. i buy two 'eizo' sx2462w monsters. both show up, were packed in new, m0d3rn expanding chemical foam. one - properly. other - with all the foam on one side of crate. naturally, frame cracked, 'bullet hole' of dead blue pixel on crystal.

02:06:52 xinxiwang: I study here actually.

02:07:09 xinxiwang: but I guess SG is a quiet place. US has a lot of news.

02:07:21 decimation: heh that's a subtle way of putting it

02:07:38 decimation: asciilifeform: RMA?

02:07:39 asciilifeform: thing is, these are $1.5k machines that sold together for 300. what, ask for refund for one?

02:07:46 asciilifeform: decimation: secondhand.

02:07:52 decimation: ah sucks

02:08:12 decimation: maybe eizo can repair

02:08:18 decimation: sounds like you got a good deal in any case

02:08:18 asciilifeform: decimation: LOL

02:08:32 decimation: yeah by 'repair' I mean 'replace important bits'

02:08:38 decimation: mainly the whole screen

02:08:39 asciilifeform: decimation: for cost of a new crystal - sure.

02:08:53 decimation: maybe for you, today, they sell for $1.4k

02:09:10 asciilifeform: 1.5 - epsilon.

02:09:29 asciilifeform: just thinking about the imbecile who packed.

02:09:32 asciilifeform: it wasn't the vendor.

02:09:39 decimation: did you buy from ebay or something

02:09:43 asciilifeform: but instead, a monkey, not answerable for his actions

02:09:45 asciilifeform: ebay where else.

02:10:08 asciilifeform: only reason i even bother to bring this headache up here in #b-a is that it presents an interesting case

02:10:42 decimation: I went to a ebay 'junk dealer' once. The owner knew his electronics, but he employed a bunch of monkeys to pack, ship, and do clerical work

02:10:43 asciilifeform: it was a unicorn, and the usual shipper-insurance/vendor-guarantee combo does not really work on unicorns.

02:11:12 asciilifeform: nor a third unicorn.

02:11:34 BingoBoingo: You could ask for a portion of the monkey?

02:11:38 decimation: still, it sounds like you got a good deal

02:11:43 decimation: heh a 'pound of flesh'

02:11:45 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and do what with it? smoke it ?

02:12:08 asciilifeform: decimation: all the pleasure of good deal, ruined by getting shafted in a newly discovered (personally) way

02:12:15 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Mount in lucite, use as paperweight

02:12:46 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i already own a 200 pound paperweight (lisp machine) - don't need a 30

02:13:13 BingoBoingo: 30 is easier to toss at monkeys than 200

02:15:00 BingoBoingo: I was thinking more like a pinky finger cased in lucite, the chunk of flesh, not the monitor

02:15:06 asciilifeform: lol, i've quite the collection of freshly minted 'paperweights' here (all the retiring non-eizo panels)

02:15:48 asciilifeform: eizo, opium of the eye

02:15:53 asciilifeform: once yer hooked - yer hooked.

02:16:09 asciilifeform: consumer crystals look like shit afterwards.

02:17:36 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: them.

02:17:55 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the gizmos in question were 'sx2462w'.

02:20:08 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i've only just started to appreciate it

02:22:00 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://www.eizo.se/default.aspx?page=11&product=SX2462WF-BK

02:22:04 assbot: Eizo ... ( http://bit.ly/1rPPgFF )

02:23:10 ben_vulpes: dunno how i hit enter there...

02:23:16 kakobrekla: this will get a bit spammy, but i want to have it in the log, so lets just get it over with.

02:23:54 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i've only just now started appreciating good wines, i don't care to get into "good" monitors too.

02:24:02 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: l0l!

02:24:32 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it's every bit as evil as you think. esp. given as (i, at least) 'drink' considerably more display than wine.

02:26:06 assbot: f9beb4d9 #1: SUCCESS (stable); No comment.

02:26:07 assbot: f9beb4d9 #2: SUCCESS (stable); No comment.

02:26:09 assbot: f9beb4d9 #3: FAILURE (broken since this build); No comment.

02:26:10 assbot: f9beb4d9 #4: FAILURE (broken since build #3); Comment: result of applying the chicken patch

02:26:12 assbot: f9beb4d9 #5: FAILURE (broken since build #3); Comment: initial commit: asciilifeform's manifest and rm's manifest and 'chicken' patch

02:26:13 assbot: f9beb4d9 #6: FAILURE (broken since build #3); No comment.

02:26:15 assbot: f9beb4d9 #7: FAILURE (broken since build #3); No comment.

02:26:16 assbot: f9beb4d9 #8: FAILURE (broken since build #3); No comment.

02:26:18 assbot: f9beb4d9 #9: SUCCESS (back to normal); No comment.

02:26:19 assbot: f9beb4d9 #10: SUCCESS (stable); Comment: empty folders are required for build to pass

02:26:21 assbot: f9beb4d9 #11: SUCCESS (stable); No comment.

02:26:22 assbot: f9beb4d9 #12: SUCCESS (stable); Comment: ben vulpes' rm_rf_upnp patch

02:26:24 assbot: f9beb4d9 #13: SUCCESS (stable); Comment: asciilifeform's https-snipsnip patch

02:26:25 assbot: f9beb4d9 #14: SUCCESS (stable); No comment.

02:26:27 assbot: f9beb4d9 #15: SUCCESS (stable); No comment.

02:26:28 assbot: f9beb4d9 #16: SUCCESS (stable); Comment: asciilifeform's turdmeister-alert-snip patch

02:26:30 assbot: f9beb4d9 #17: SUCCESS (stable); Comment: asciilifeform's goodbye-win-32 patch

02:26:47 kakobrekla: everyone survived?

02:26:53 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: neato

02:27:03 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i take it turdatron functions to spec now?

02:27:06 mike_c: assbot plz send donation to b-a donation address.

02:27:36 kakobrekla: ask ben_vulpes about the feed

02:27:42 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/patches.html << only displays one

02:27:44 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1v8bGwz )

02:27:47 asciilifeform: or is there a new site

02:27:55 []bot: Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $250 before 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1078/ Odds: 19(Y):81(N) by coin, 19(Y):81(N) by weight. Total bet: 9.216 BTC. Current weight: 95,586.

02:29:45 kakobrekla: he made a jenkins setup but url is private as server is not ddos ready, so ask him.

02:31:06 asciilifeform: the beauty of the everything-pgp-signed concept is that this thing ought to be deadly-easy to mirror.

02:31:21 asciilifeform: ideally should come with a script that establishes that a copy is 100% canonical.

02:31:27 asciilifeform: (given public keys of the players)

02:33:43 decimation: cazalla: I want more winklevoss coverage!

02:34:03 cazalla: decimation, they're pretty quiet

02:34:42 decimation: yeah, it seems they are already derped by much of of the 'tardstream' media anyway

02:35:06 decimation: few actual important details have been released, like "where they are gonna buy bitcoin" and "how they gonna index btc price"

02:35:18 decimation: !up xinxiwang

02:36:10 decimation: asciilifeform: one thing that annoys me about most distro crypto-discipline is that they pretend that only the 'maintainers' could sign

02:36:29 decimation: why should I trust some derp who 'volunteers' for arch over the upstream creator?

02:36:39 asciilifeform: decimation: aha, the 'anonymous monkeys submit, poettering signs' model

02:36:44 decimation: exactly

02:36:53 decimation: which is nearly universal as far as I can tell

02:37:11 decimation: and note that "Maintenance" nearly always consists of adding some derpy package turd

02:38:06 decimation: !up Dr-G

02:38:10 undata: I don't see how you solve that problem without having all source packages grabbed directly from creators with signatures verified, and compiling yourself

02:38:17 undata: binary package systems would be difficult

02:38:36 decimation: undata: true, but how else does one 'convey' trust?

02:39:13 undata: decimation: yep, I think it's necessary

02:39:39 undata: portage will save us all

02:39:39 decimation: Dr-G: are you connected via tor and then sasl, or end-to-end sasl to freenode?

02:39:55 decimation: well, gentoo is pretty close to having 'unpackages'

02:40:40 undata: decimation: how are you defining unpackages?

02:41:08 decimation: 'make install' the turd as it comes without modification

02:41:43 undata: ah yeah

02:41:57 decimation: one of the main problems that linux packaging aims to solve is exactly the issue ascii rants about, that is - lack of a global namespace for code

02:42:05 undata: it'd be neat to publish the hash of a given release of a package into the blockchain

02:42:25 decimation: could be done with a 'deed'

02:43:38 undata: that'd be miles better than just trusting what ended up in the ebuild

02:44:06 undata: there's always the hard problem of bootstrapping your build tools in a secure way

02:45:03 undata: then of course the whole thing is moot on broken hardware

02:45:51 decimation: heh yeah

02:46:05 decimation: as ascii says, we don't even have computers yet

03:07:10 BingoBoingo: !up xinxiwang

03:11:44 *: asciilifeform plugged in the two 'eizo' panels spoken of earlier, can actually -feel- the heat now

03:13:14 kakobrekla: yes it can be felt here on 5x27" as well but no tan :\

03:24:37 decimation: asciilifeform: price you pay for quality crystal - lots of light

03:24:48 decimation: probably affecting your ability to produce melatonin at night

03:25:20 asciilifeform: decimation: and aha, these aren't piss-ant led lights either. ccfl tubes - which means they can't be cranked down all the much (and stay lit)

03:25:40 decimation: yeah designed for max life at max performance

03:25:50 asciilifeform: melatonin at night: for what it's worth, i usually tune the gamma to be heavy on the red

03:26:02 mike_c: v2 of the bitbet analyzer is so cool i almost want to keep it to myself. i'd win all the bitcoins.

03:26:15 decimation: probably with sophisticated diffusers

03:26:28 decimation: mike_c: are you saying that luck ain't got nothing to do with it?

03:26:37 mike_c: not for long.

03:26:59 decimation: this mastercard in australia thing is lulzy

03:27:14 decimation: as far as I know few/no american tardstream media is covering

03:27:26 decimation: it's obviously an idea balloon that they are going to try to use to kill bitcoin dead everywhere

03:27:33 mike_c: my credit card company sent me a new card recently for my safety.

03:27:39 asciilifeform: wai wat

03:27:43 asciilifeform: australia mastercard ?

03:27:49 mike_c: now i'm lost

03:27:55 decimation: asciilifeform: the link cazalla dropped http://qntra.net/2014/12/mastercards-submission-to-economics-references-committee-now-available/

03:27:55 assbot: MasterCard's Submission To Economics References Committee Now Available | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1A9OBOW )

03:28:02 PeterL: !up patate

03:28:11 asciilifeform: lol

03:28:19 cazalla: decimation was pretty clear imo

03:28:20 decimation: mike_c: did it have a secret number on the front that you were only to share with pre-trusted individuals

03:28:29 patate: hello

03:28:39 decimation: I think this is common in the 'democratic' world - 'venue shopping'

03:28:39 mike_c: yes. and now i have to run around to all the individuals i trusted before and change it.

03:28:40 asciilifeform: mastercard << reads like yet another 'let's whip the hellespont.'

03:28:41 BingoBoingo: Hello patate

03:28:43 decimation: "but germany agreed to X"

03:29:19 mike_c: for "my" safety. except i'm not liable for fraud. so actually they are being a pain in my ass for their safety. fucking home depot.

03:29:27 PeterL: patate: what brings you to #bitcoin-assets?

03:29:49 decimation: when my credit card number kept getting stolen (before I was smart about website passwords), amex refused to change anything other than the last 4 digits when 're-issued'

03:29:52 patate: i love discover irc chats

03:29:59 mike_c: cazalla: "MasterCard is calling for such regulation regulation"

03:30:11 decimation: I called customer service and they said that it would be quite impossible to change the first set of numbers, because that's my account number

03:30:17 decimation: I wanted to burn

03:30:30 cazalla: mike_c, ty

03:30:30 mike_c: this has nothing to do with website shopping

03:30:41 mike_c: i bought some fucking lightbulbs at home depot

03:31:22 mike_c: credit cards are so bad it is mind-boggling.

03:31:49 decimation: yeah I think we discussed the dumbification of pos terminals in the past http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-09-2014#825488

03:31:49 assbot: Logged on 11-09-2014 03:44:22; *: decimation remembers every pos and library using said terminals growing up, only to be replaced with buggy-ass windows for no reason

03:32:05 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-09-2014#825489

03:32:05 assbot: Logged on 11-09-2014 03:44:31; *: asciilifeform also saw this

03:32:11 BingoBoingo: Wait, people actually go to Home Depot to buy stuff they'd want a record of buying?

03:32:31 asciilifeform: lol, BingoBoingo and his drain pipe howitzers

03:32:42 cazalla: and breaking bad plots

03:32:43 mike_c: hm? i don't mind people knowing i bought lightbulbs. it was only a couple.

03:32:45 BingoBoingo: Allegedly

03:32:50 decimation: mike_c: you know the thing that pisses me off the most? every retail store/credit card company conspires to record every bit of information about you that they can

03:32:59 mike_c: yes. i hate that too.

03:33:09 decimation: but as far as I know, there is no service the lets you download your own itemized receipts

03:33:19 decimation: like, you know, so you can share in the bounty of their information?

03:33:25 BingoBoingo: Still, do you really want some insurer or landlord knowing how much spackle you had to buy to patch the walls after the bacanals

03:33:30 mike_c: sorry, your shopping habits are their information, not yours.

03:33:59 mike_c: BingoBoingo: lol :) i use cash for the spackle.

03:34:01 asciilifeform: kgb didn't let you grab your own real time bug feeds either.

03:34:04 PeterL: there are document scanners which database-ize receipts

03:34:07 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=17-11-2014#926251

03:34:07 assbot: Logged on 17-11-2014 04:35:56; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they wish to steal not merely the farmer's cow, but to also steal the farmer's "having being stolen from" << usg (and the 'enlightenment') in one sentence.

03:34:09 asciilifeform: somebody is confused re: how surveillance works

03:34:30 mike_c: this is just marketing though. or at least, that's the primary use case.

03:34:33 asciilifeform: seeing exactly what the enemy sees (and doesn't see) is almost half as good as not being watched

03:34:50 decimation: asciilifeform: I don't even want to see what he sees of all people, just of me

03:34:58 asciilifeform: precisely that

03:34:59 decimation: like, at least the panopticon can be a good secretary?

03:35:20 decimation: but even *that* has been stolen too

03:35:25 cazalla: yall don't have a rewards card for every store?

03:35:39 decimation: cazalla: I use 'generic' rewards card

03:35:40 asciilifeform: 'Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it; moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plate commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceiv

03:35:40 asciilifeform: able that they watched everybody all the time. but at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You have to live - did live, from habit that became instinct - in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized.'

03:36:08 kakobrekla: cazalla not a single one, but i get asked to join various regularly.

03:36:25 cazalla: kakobrekla, what? you don't have a rewards card? here is a form, please fill out

03:36:33 kakobrekla: hehe

03:36:44 asciilifeform: every penny i spend is recorded. even at parking meters.

03:36:55 decimation: yeah it's almost impossible to use 'cash' in the us these days

03:36:57 asciilifeform: (my town recently installed cc readers even there.)

03:37:19 *: BingoBoingo rewatching Jurassic Park. I bet John Hammond wishes he would have bought Symbolics instead of *nix.

03:37:26 decimation: except - I recall when a massive snowstorm moved up the east coast and wiped out all the telco lines - suddenly everywhere was 'cash only'

03:37:52 asciilifeform: decimation: except that not everything is even equipped to take cash.

03:37:52 mike_c: that mastercard post on qntra is great. a good candidate for promotion (slashdot? reddit?)

03:38:00 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah exactly

03:38:00 cazalla: BingoBoingo, i know this, it's a unix system!

03:38:09 BingoBoingo: I've been reddit killed.

03:38:35 patate: i love potatoes

03:38:37 asciilifeform: for instance, where i live, paying with paper money at a filling station requires a human clerk to turn a crank

03:38:51 asciilifeform: hence, lengthy queue where otherwise none.

03:39:05 mike_c: <+BingoBoingo> I've been reddit killed. << just being in this channel seems to get a person banned from half the internet

03:39:24 decimation: asciilifeform: have you read herr Saltzer's end-to-end argument? http://web.mit.edu/Saltzer/www/publications/endtoend/endtoend.pdf‎

03:39:25 assbot: MIT 404 Error - file not found ... ( http://bit.ly/1A9QLhB )

03:39:58 BingoBoingo: ALso look at slate bullying the nerd http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2014/12/james_watson_selling_nobel_prize_dna_structure_discoverer_s_history_of_racism.html

03:39:59 assbot: James Watson selling Nobel Prize: DNA structure discoverer’s history of racism and sexism. ... ( http://bit.ly/1A9QQSd )

03:39:59 asciilifeform: decimation: negative

03:40:17 decimation: asciilifeform: it captures some of the 'spirit' of stripping down bitcoind

03:40:54 decimation: Saltzer wrote multics, which is the ancestor of unix, more or less

03:41:15 asciilifeform: watson should publicly sink it into the mariana trench, or some other 'black hole'

03:41:22 asciilifeform: if gonna troll, do it right.

03:41:52 decimation: that's awesome. I agree, should toss into volcano

03:42:09 decimation: or better yet, send it to 1600 pennsylvania avenue

03:42:16 BingoBoingo: Dunno selling it to the Winkelvii would be pretty troll.

03:42:38 BingoBoingo: Or Mike Tyson

03:42:52 asciilifeform: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/12/de_extinction_ethics_why_extinct_species_shouldn_t_be_brought_back.html << another mega-lol from same rag.

03:42:53 assbot: De-extinction ethics: Why extinct species shouldn’t be brought back. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CA9mrX )

03:43:08 asciilifeform: ^ idiot luddite hates (so far, theoretical) 'de-extinction' tech because...

03:43:29 asciilifeform: 'That?s because wiping out the passenger pigeon, the heath hen, the Tasmanian tiger, and so on, as regrettable as these events were, wasn?t the real mistake. It was only the indicator of a deeper moral and cultural malady.'

03:43:50 decimation: 'because man isn't natural'

03:43:59 asciilifeform: this is a deeper idiocy

03:44:17 patate: someone here speak french

03:44:33 BingoBoingo: Maybe?

03:45:10 decimation: pardon?

03:45:45 *: BingoBoingo proposes Giant Ground Sloth for resurection

03:46:16 asciilifeform: imbecile isn't even arguing that 'it could wreck existing xyz'

03:46:22 asciilifeform: but that 'removes moral dimension!'

03:47:04 cazalla: patate, voulez vous coucher avec moi ce soir?

03:47:07 decimation: asciilifeform: but even if you believe man is created by God (as I do) you would still have to believe that God failed to anticipate what man would do to nature, and/or man could somehow outsmart Him

03:47:08 patate: non

03:47:22 BingoBoingo: North America needs moar Mega fauna.

03:47:24 asciilifeform: reminds me of... 'The prospect of cheap fusion energy is the worst thing that could happen to the planet.' (Jeremy Rifkin, Greenhouse Crisis Foundation)

03:47:48 decimation: yeah the anti-nuke stuff is lulzy too

03:48:03 gernika: asciilifeform: I recently read Englebard's Violin and managed to get ahold of a Twiddler. Have you used it?

03:48:18 asciilifeform: gernika: nope

03:48:35 asciilifeform: gernika: on account of - not ergonomic.

03:48:44 asciilifeform: not hand shaped, no tactile spring switches - do not want.

03:49:08 decimation: there was a gentleman who bicycled across the country with a modded 1990's era computer bike - and he had a chorded keyboard

03:49:42 decimation: this genthttp://microship.com/resources/winnebiko-behemoth.html

03:50:00 gernika: asciilifeform: the buttons definitely click when you press them, but that is not what you're talking about?

03:50:10 decimation: http://microship.com/resources/resourcepix/behemothwisc.jpg

03:50:11 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAauM9 )

03:50:24 asciilifeform: can you hear then across a room?

03:50:28 asciilifeform: or do they 'click' like mouse.

03:51:02 gernika: asciilifeform: also yes it's not hand shaped, but also does n't require you to twist your hand and splay your fingers

03:51:43 gernika: asciilifeform: not like the old ibm keyboards that sort of ring when you click them no.

03:51:48 asciilifeform: ideal device would have rotary jointed finger slots.

03:51:59 decimation: asciilifeform: do you own one of Cy Enfield's widgets?

03:52:05 asciilifeform: and adjustable tension switches

03:52:12 asciilifeform: decimation: yes. the original 'microwriter.'

03:53:20 decimation: asciilifeform: do you imagine some kind of 'data glove'?

03:53:31 asciilifeform: not so fond of gloves.

03:53:38 asciilifeform: sweat.

03:53:53 asciilifeform: and the notion of moving fingers without any feedback springs is lunacy

03:53:53 cazalla: powerglove perhaps?

03:53:56 asciilifeform: see above

03:54:06 asciilifeform: !s gorilla arm

03:54:07 assbot: 3 results for 'gorilla arm' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gorilla+arm

03:54:08 decimation: yeah, one needs a 'glove with feedback'

03:54:10 gernika: asciilifeform: why are tactile spring switches more ergonomic? Do they prevent you from pressing with too much strength?

03:54:24 asciilifeform: they give an immediate, palpable 'stop moving now'

03:54:27 decimation: basically a robotic hand that gently attaches to your own?

03:55:11 asciilifeform: i seriously doubt that you can get spring feedback from anything other than an actual spring.

03:55:39 asciilifeform: and at this point i don't even care if i'm simply habituated to springs or if there is something 'intrinsic and natural' about spring clicks. i refuse to do without them.

03:55:51 PeterL: there are various forms of spring to pick from

03:56:02 asciilifeform: just like wearing clothing, or shitting in a toilet rather than in pants, are also 'mere' habits

03:56:13 asciilifeform: that one could, conceivably, experiment with forgoing

03:56:19 asciilifeform: not interested in such experiments.

03:56:29 decimation: asciilifeform: basically the same action as your model-m buckling springs?

03:56:45 asciilifeform: presently i'm not even using a 'model m', but a 'northgate'

03:56:56 asciilifeform: (switches by 'alps', long ago defunct)

03:57:41 asciilifeform: 'alps' used leaf springs

03:58:06 asciilifeform: not quite as pleasurable as ibm's buckling springs. but the 'northgate' does have the function keys in their properly ordained position.

03:58:48 asciilifeform: ibm made a buckling-spring keyboard which also had this, but it suffered from other deformities.

03:58:51 asciilifeform: see for yourself: http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/Images/1390876.jpg

03:58:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAbEHu )

03:58:52 decimation: asciilifeform: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Northgate_OmniKey_101 this?

03:58:53 assbot: Northgate OmniKey 101 - Deskthority wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAbH6q )

03:59:15 gernika: asciilifeform: so is someone who can't get ahold of a microwriter basically just fucked?

03:59:15 asciilifeform: decimation: no.

03:59:39 PeterL: no control by 'z'?

03:59:47 asciilifeform: decimation: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Omnikey102p3248.jpg << that one

03:59:50 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAbRL5 )

04:00:09 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I like those extra function keys

04:00:16 decimation: wait, you don't get 22 function keys?

04:00:20 asciilifeform: gernika: 'microwriter' is not so great today. no easy means of getting it to throw output to a computer in real time.

04:00:36 asciilifeform: gernika: there's an rs232 jack but, iirc, it only pisses out a buffered text.

04:00:47 asciilifeform: gernika: i'll happily part with mine if someone wanted to buy it.

04:01:01 asciilifeform: PeterL: nah that's fixable

04:01:27 gernika: asciilifeform: ah I thought you'd figured out how to hook it up to whatever development machine you use

04:01:28 asciilifeform: PeterL: no 'esc', no status lights, abominable 'plus sign' arrow keys

04:01:47 asciilifeform: gernika: no, i did not actually use it in anger. for some reason i thought this was clear from the article.

04:02:05 asciilifeform: gernika: i expressed a wish that i had grown up with it, rather than qwerty keyboards.

04:02:06 PeterL: I can't quite see, what's in the middle of the arrow keys?

04:02:11 gernika: asciilifeform: sorry it's been about a month since I read it

04:02:14 decimation: 'zulu' was a great movie though

04:02:24 asciilifeform: PeterL: key with own code

04:02:48 asciilifeform: PeterL: that keyboard was intended for 'glass tty' terminals and cannot be used with a modern pc compat. machine without some custom electronics

04:03:01 asciilifeform: (speaking here of the giant 'model m')

04:03:27 kakobrekla: that is 'model f'

04:03:30 asciilifeform: i have one. it is presently gathering dust. no time to do what must be done to it

04:03:31 decimation: asciilifeform: I think sun made a keyboard with function keys on the left, but no buckling springs

04:03:37 asciilifeform: neh, model f was the pc xt keyboard iirtc

04:03:39 asciilifeform: iirc

04:03:52 asciilifeform: decimation: sun's type 5. shit keys.

04:03:55 asciilifeform: membrane.

04:04:07 decimation: http://www.aquaphoenix.com/graphics/SunKeyboardType6/

04:04:07 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAckwD )

04:04:16 decimation: yeah but the layout was ok

04:04:34 asciilifeform: !s spreading works

04:04:35 assbot: 15 results for 'spreading works' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=spreading+works

04:04:35 kakobrekla: ah, the layout looks like f then

04:05:06 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-08-2014#802309

04:05:06 assbot: Logged on 20-08-2014 06:37:37; asciilifeform: soviet scientist declares, 'we've invented a shit-to-food converter.' 'does it work?' 'sorta. spreading on bread: worlks!!11! eating - not quite yet.'

04:05:09 decimation: lol I like the .link

04:05:39 decimation: asciilifeform: maybe they can keep a detached dog's head alive too!!!

04:06:05 asciilifeform: lol, that sorta worked.

04:07:52 kakobrekla: speaking of keyboards, if anyone has such, wtb: http://shrani.si/f/1U/zK/vTpHQ6z/4381kb.jpg

04:07:53 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAcNPy )

04:08:14 asciilifeform: lol!

04:08:27 asciilifeform: for what was this one? s/360?

04:08:27 decimation: is that from a pcjr?

04:08:42 decimation: yeah, too old for pcjr

04:08:57 kakobrekla: actually http://shrani.si/f/h/6h/2YfYFZ7j/1280px-ibm-3279.jpg

04:08:58 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAcRPe )

04:09:42 kakobrekla: for the IBM-3279?

04:09:46 BingoBoingo: !up devthedev

04:10:41 decimation: ah that's a real 3270 term

04:11:32 kakobrekla: they do not seem identical but i think they are same, the keyboards

04:11:40 kakobrekla: same model

04:11:49 asciilifeform: kakobrekla has this ?

04:11:57 kakobrekla: kakobrekla wtb this

04:12:41 kakobrekla: ofc noone sane will part it

04:15:34 gernika: asciilifeform: I find it interesting that you prefer the buckling springs over something like the Microsoft Natural Keyboard that doesn't require you flex your wrists sideways. That said, using the MS keyboard ultimately has not prevented me from having issues. I must try a springy keyboard.

04:16:58 decimation: I've used both and I didn't think that the 'natural keyboards' were all that more comfortable

04:17:04 asciilifeform: aha.

04:17:10 asciilifeform: i find them a misery.

04:17:24 asciilifeform: and that's not even considering the castrated space bar (to fit the worthless winblows keys)

04:18:10 gernika: What aggravates me more and more recently is the claim that mac products are well designed, when in fact they will destroy your hands.

04:19:24 gernika: both the keyboards and the "magic" trackpad

04:19:25 decimation: yeah mac keyboard is shit

04:19:37 asciilifeform: worthy of a 'dollar store' calculator.

04:19:43 decimation: I find the trackpad annoying too, not sure why people prefer

04:19:45 PeterL: I'm suprised you don't reprogram the winblows key to be an extra control to give yourself another batch of functions at your fingertips?

04:20:13 asciilifeform: PeterL: i might do so, if any keyboard having it were worth using in the first place

04:20:29 asciilifeform: but i have yet to find a keyboard made post-1995 or so that was worth having

04:20:32 decimation: I use the model-m knockoff for my mac: http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/SpacesaverM

04:20:33 assbot: Unicomp, Inc.: Spacesaver M / Mac OS X ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAeCfi )

04:21:04 asciilifeform: decimation: funny that you mention this, a colleague of mine is throwing his out just now.

04:21:11 decimation: asciilifeform: why?

04:21:13 asciilifeform: spring - gave out. buzzing repeats.

04:21:23 asciilifeform: knockoff is a turd.

04:21:34 decimation: heh. mine has an issue where the function key 'negates' suddenly

04:21:41 decimation: always-on instead of always-off

04:21:49 asciilifeform: real 'model m' goes 30+ years without any malfunction of any detectable kind whatsoever.

04:21:53 decimation: I have to plug/replug usb to 'fix'

04:21:55 asciilifeform: or any maintenance.

04:22:05 asciilifeform: usb lol

04:22:15 asciilifeform: i don't even allow usb keyboards on my personal machines.

04:22:32 decimation: yeah, whatever chinese intern wrote the keyboard driver firmware was an idiot

04:22:54 asciilifeform: i meant, in kernel

04:23:00 kakobrekla: i have a bolt moded (ssk) and non bolt moded board and difference is huge

04:23:01 decimation: asciilifeform: don't you trust usb security?

04:23:04 asciilifeform: don't want multi-keyboard support.

04:23:09 asciilifeform: no good comes of it

04:23:28 asciilifeform: somebody wake up diametric

04:23:39 asciilifeform: i recall he bought, not long ago, a 'bolt modded' model m

04:23:52 gernika: This look about right? http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/sop/4778203160.html

04:23:53 assbot: IBM Model M clicky Keyboard, 1993, excellent condition, w/USB adapter ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAfi4e )

04:23:57 kakobrekla: and it fell apart?

04:24:03 asciilifeform: not afaik

04:24:05 asciilifeform: not yet, anyway

04:24:44 asciilifeform: gernika: that's a standard model m from the photo, yes

04:24:44 decimation: gernika: the early 90's model m's were made by lexmark, somewhat shoddier

04:27:22 kakobrekla: if someone wants to drool http://webwit.nl/input/

04:27:23 assbot: Index of /input ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAfznO )

04:28:16 mike_c: kakobrekla: you wtb the keyboard or the whole terminal?

04:28:33 kakobrekla: keyboard

04:29:23 mike_c: i've got a friend who collects old crap like that, i'll ping him. he might know the right people to ask.

04:29:37 kakobrekla: cool, doesnt hurt to ask :)

05:25:17 asciilifeform: !up badon

05:25:34 badon: Thanks!

05:25:38 badon: asciilifeform: Should I paste?

05:25:42 asciilifeform: aha

05:26:26 badon: I have used several Typematrix keyboards during the last decade. I tried all the best and most expensive ergonomic keyboards, but the Typematrix was the cheapest "serious" keyboard I tested, and it was also the best. It was also the most easily portable one too. I wrote an article yesterday about them, and a few ways to get discounts and free stuff if you buy things in the right sequence: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?t

05:26:29 assbot: Live Business Chat - Index ... ( http://bit.ly/1rRF2z7 )

05:26:29 badon: opic=5760.0

05:26:29 badon: eek

05:26:37 badon: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=5760.0

05:26:39 assbot: Typematrix keyboards and accessories 30% discount code CYBER2014 ... ( http://bit.ly/1rRF7CO )

05:26:39 badon: there

05:27:00 badon: It's pretty durable, but I wouldn't trust it for 30+ years like the IBM model M. Of course, I take mine with me mobile, and that's extra-hard on keyboards. I think I'm averaging about 4 or 5 years before I break one of mine.

05:27:07 badon: I buy used ones for spare parts, and keep them going. They're that awesome.

05:27:15 asciilifeform: badon: your device reminds me of maltron's keyboard.

05:27:29 badon: asciilifeform: Yeah, I tried one of those too. I liked the Typematrix better.

05:27:38 asciilifeform: http://xahlee.info/kbd/Maltron_keyboard.html

05:27:39 assbot: Maltron Keyboard Review ... ( http://bit.ly/1rRFkG8 )

05:27:55 badon: I spent a ton of money on them, to test them all.

05:28:33 badon: Kinesis and Maltron were both really very good, but the Typematrix was a little better, and it was a LOT cheaper and more portable.

05:29:15 badon: Plus, the skins make the Typematrix the ultimate keyboard. My keyboard life has greatly increased now that no debris gets in them. Plus, I can switch layouts easily.

05:29:24 badon: In practice, I just stick with Dvorak though.

05:29:46 badon: I can type on either Dvorak or QWERTY, but Dvorak is faster with fewer errors.

05:30:28 kakobrekla: Switch: membrane technology with "double-scissors" mechanism

05:30:31 badon: Typematrix keyboards are able to do both. You switch skins to change the labeling.

05:30:32 kakobrekla: bah

05:30:52 badon: kakobrekla: It's pretty good. I think the scissors are teflon or something else extremely low friction.

05:30:57 badon: It feels a lot like teflon.

05:31:04 badon: It's stiffer though.

05:31:09 *: asciilifeform won't use membrane keyboard unless trapped (laptop in the field, etc)

05:31:26 badon: What's the alternative?

05:31:41 asciilifeform: badon: mechanical switches

05:31:52 badon: I've really enjoyed mine, and it's easy to change out the membrane if I wear one out or accidentally screw it up.

05:32:36 badon: Mechanical switches wear out too. I'm not sure they have any advantage over the membrane.

05:32:54 badon: The membrane is nearly as tactile, but much quieter.

05:33:22 badon: I assume it's lighter, cheaper, and less bulky, but I can't say for sure since I haven't got any mechanical keyboards.

05:33:38 badon: I've used them in the past, of course, but that was in the 1980's.

05:34:19 kakobrekla: we are still in the 80's

05:34:41 *: badon reels up an old Braddock movie

05:35:20 BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Don't worry, soon we will be in the 70's

05:35:33 kakobrekla: groovy!

05:38:20 asciilifeform: i've yet to render a single 'model m' even partially inoperable.

05:38:50 asciilifeform: 'alps' and similar (leaf spring) switches are good for a decade or so of heavy use

05:39:28 asciilifeform: for these, it helps to have a sacrificial keyboard in your cellar, to desolder switches from when the inevitable comes

05:39:43 kakobrekla: well if you cant amortize a kboard over a decade... you are typing too slow.

05:39:48 asciilifeform: (leaf springs develop a 'stutter' as they age)

05:40:03 badon: asciilifeform: Typematrix is planning to produce new models. If you contact them, you will have an opportunity to influence their design decisions.

05:40:05 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: not a question of money, but of what is physically attainable

05:40:18 asciilifeform: i tend to buy 'northgates' in reasonable condition whenever and wherever they pop up

05:40:40 asciilifeform: (not so much 'model m' - i used them also, but they do not, for any practical purpose, wear out. so don't need many.)

05:41:11 asciilifeform: badon: presumably they have happy customers already.

05:41:13 badon: Typematrix is a small company with only 1 engineer (one of the owners), so it's easy to have your voice heard if you've got a good idea for them.

05:41:19 badon: asciilifeform: Yes, they do.

05:41:38 badon: Still, the idea of a keyboard with ridiculously fast mechanical switches appeals to me.

05:41:45 kakobrekla: asciilifeform what the estimated lifetime supply of northgates

05:41:51 kakobrekla: whats*

05:42:03 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: transplanted switches don't have to come from 'northgates' per se.

05:42:15 asciilifeform: can be any board with identical switches.

05:42:18 kakobrekla: mhm

05:42:24 badon: asciilifeform: Ah, so the mechanical ones aren't indestructible.

05:42:43 asciilifeform: badon: leaf spring switches wear out considerably faster than buckling springs

05:42:46 badon: I think I have 4 or 5 Typematrix keyboards, give or take.

05:43:04 asciilifeform: (in the latter, the spring has been known to deform. can obtain replacement spring easily.)

05:43:21 badon: I'll have to get one wireless.

05:43:49 asciilifeform: leaf spring switches ('alps', 'cherry', others) are not normally considered repairable - on account of there being no ready supply (afaik) of replacement springs.

05:43:53 kakobrekla: hm, what brought you here originally badon ?

05:44:17 badon: kakobrekla: The discussion in #freenode about a DDoS bot here.

05:44:30 badon: I wasn't aware of the existence of this channel, and I was going to ask what it's about.

05:44:46 badon: I couldn't find a simple explanation in the channel topic, nor on the website.

05:44:53 kakobrekla: ah that, nobody knows at this point.

05:45:17 badon: I couldn't speak, so I couldn't ask until now, after asciilifeform voiced me so I could share what I was discussing with him privately about keyboards.

05:45:36 badon: I'd still like to know what this channel is about :)

05:45:40 kakobrekla: its ok, SS is pleased.

05:45:45 badon: SS?

05:46:01 kakobrekla: Schutzstaffel?

05:46:22 badon: ?

05:46:23 asciilifeform: http://i.imgur.com/upQWT.gif

05:46:25 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1rRJYUu )

05:46:31 asciilifeform: ^ leaf spring switch cutaway (animated)

05:46:56 asciilifeform: (notice helical spring also present)

05:47:06 kakobrekla: mx switches werks liek dat

05:47:16 asciilifeform: 'cherry' aha

05:47:23 asciilifeform: i'm not especially fond of them

05:47:29 asciilifeform: 'alps' made, imho, the only passable ones

05:47:49 asciilifeform: http://cdn.overclock.net/f/f3/f3ac7d6a_834ee78eb1666da184c2b151aad52401.gif

05:47:51 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1rRKeD0 )

05:47:53 asciilifeform: ^ buckling spring, also animated.

05:48:23 kakobrekla: !s this chan about

05:48:24 assbot: 11 results for 'this chan about' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=this+chan+about

05:48:31 kakobrekla: try that badon

05:48:48 asciilifeform: it was, at one point, i think, about bitcoin.

05:48:52 badon: looking

05:48:54 badon: oh, haha

05:48:59 asciilifeform: (still is, perhaps, when i'm logged out...)

05:49:28 kakobrekla: now its just something that looks like english

05:50:01 mats_cd03: Chaang-Noi:not talking about anyone anyone said in this chan, just spammers who pm me about random shit << oh the irony

05:50:16 kakobrekla: lol

05:51:54 mats_cd03: oh wait...brain parsed 'scammer' instead

05:52:28 kakobrekla: well, he is/was both

05:52:35 asciilifeform: any 'keyboard folks' still awake - there are yet other famous switches, that i have not used.

05:52:38 asciilifeform: e.g., http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

05:52:39 assbot: Topre switch - Deskthority wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1rRLg1Z )

05:52:46 kakobrekla: yeah

05:52:48 kakobrekla: !s topre

05:52:49 assbot: 3 results for 'topre' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=topre

05:52:53 mats_cd03: o ya? did spam too?

05:52:56 asciilifeform: as i understand, these are quite rare outside of jp.

05:53:14 mats_cd03: how about that

05:53:26 kakobrekla: i was looking at topre board a year ago but opted out in the end

05:53:32 *: mats_cd03 goes back to wrangling dockerfiles

05:55:18 asciilifeform: a true '$maxint' keyboard would use hall effect sensors for the actuation, rather than rubber dome and carbon (topre, model m, mebranes) or contacting electrodes (leaf springs - alps, cherry)

05:55:19 ben_vulpes: mats_cd03: what are you doing with dockerfiles?

05:55:29 kakobrekla: i forgot why exactly, prolly no tenkeyless model

05:55:34 asciilifeform: these are found in 'explosion-proof' machinery - e.g., to be used in mines, gas pipelines

05:55:55 asciilifeform: a small magnet moves near a (hermetically sealed) hall effect junction

05:56:20 asciilifeform: (magnet can be suspended above a buckling spring, or rubber doohickey, or whatever - but this is purely for the user's pleasure and plays no electrical role)

05:56:58 asciilifeform: i bought a small crate, some years ago, to play with.

05:56:58 kakobrekla: a there it is

05:57:01 kakobrekla: https://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se18t0

05:57:03 assbot: Realforce 87U Tenkeyless 55g (Black) - elitekeyboards.com - Products ... ( http://bit.ly/1rRMeeu )

05:58:32 asciilifeform: ugh castrato.

05:58:45 kakobrekla: hihi

05:59:24 kakobrekla: i have a standalone numpad somewhere

05:59:48 kakobrekla: and yes i prefer it on the right of the mouse!

06:00:29 fluffypony: so hardcore

06:00:31 fluffypony: like an accountant

06:00:33 kakobrekla: but havent found the use for it in a long tiem

06:00:48 fluffypony: oh snap

06:00:52 kakobrekla: actually it was neat for playing dyna blaster

06:00:56 kakobrekla: for 2 players

06:01:37 ben_vulpes: +asciilifeform:kakobrekla: i take it turdatron functions to spec now? << what spec

06:01:58 kakobrekla: nfi

06:02:06 ben_vulpes: +asciilifeform:http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/patches.html << only displays one << jurov, paging jurov to the turdatron

06:02:45 ben_vulpes: +decimation:few actual important details have been released, like "where they are gonna buy bitcoin" and "how they gonna index btc price" << the later is actually public knowledge

06:02:51 ben_vulpes: latter*

06:08:57 ben_vulpes: +asciilifeform:every penny i spend is recorded. even at parking meters. << you've got this weird habit of just doing what they tell you. i don't get it, especially given your proclivities and tendencies. it's almost as though you're...an ironic mole!

06:09:34 gernika: p

06:11:00 ben_vulpes: cazalla: "Coinsetter is now promoting participation in the bitcoin market to professional market makers by offering maker-taker pricing and a new equity incentive program beginning today. The 'Market Making Equity Incentive Program' will set aside 10% of the company's equity for distribution to institutionally-capitalized designated market makers (DMMs) who provide at least $300k of liquidity to

06:11:02 ben_vulpes: Coinsetter's order book."

06:12:00 mats_cd03: ben_vulpes: i'm building a dev env for website

06:12:13 ben_vulpes: +asciilifeform:and the notion of moving fingers without any feedback springs is lunacy << hardly. feedback via optic nerve is entirely reasonable.

06:12:29 ben_vulpes: mats_cd03: WELCOME TO CLUB

06:12:29 mats_cd03: annoying piece of machinery, this

06:12:35 mats_cd03: ikr

06:12:50 ben_vulpes: what part is most annoying?

06:13:05 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "refuse" << lolk

06:13:27 mats_cd03: it'll prob end up wrangling vagrant, redis, mongodb, memcached, and nginx

06:14:06 mats_cd03: i'm still trying to work out if i can do it all through shell script supervisors, but that probably won't happen

06:14:55 ben_vulpes: shell script supervisors hm?

06:15:08 ben_vulpes: docker will keep containers up on its own just fine.

06:15:31 ben_vulpes: mongo ha oh boy the machine in question's what - 3 years old?

06:15:34 thestringpuller: mats_cd03: i threw up a little

06:15:37 mats_cd03: i mean... management of spinning up/down, and what not

06:15:49 mats_cd03: i forgot to mention i have no idea what i'm doing with web things

06:16:02 ben_vulpes: mats_cd03: the sj deploy hairball is entirely bash with a squirt of python to marshal aws resources

06:16:28 ben_vulpes: build pattern is: "install docker. then, deploy apptuation."

06:17:07 thestringpuller: what are you guise setting up again?

06:17:08 ben_vulpes: well, build containers for all persistent services (redis, postgres, mongo in your case).

06:18:05 ben_vulpes: deploy pattern is "get code, load deps file into docker,rebuild image with that, if build fails bail, run image, smoke test new container, if new container fails bail, then shut down old container and shoop new container into its place"

06:18:14 ben_vulpes: obviously there are subtleties with static assets, but you get the gist.

06:18:32 ben_vulpes: pm if you have questions. more than happy to lend a hand.

06:18:37 ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: i have no idea.

06:19:36 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: weird habit of just doing what they tell you << lol

06:20:11 mats_cd03: i appreciate it, will let you know if i run into anything especially gnarly

06:20:15 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: feedback via optic nerve is entirely reasonable << muscles were not made to twitch impotently in mid-air.

06:20:29 asciilifeform: !s gorilla arm

06:20:29 assbot: 3 results for 'gorilla arm' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gorilla+arm

06:20:38 ben_vulpes: who said 'in air'?

06:21:23 asciilifeform: go try it. 'type' on an imaginary keyboard, wearing motorcycling gloves.

06:21:27 asciilifeform: see how much fun.

06:21:38 ben_vulpes: hardware to test this does not exist.

06:21:49 asciilifeform: moto gloves + imagination.

06:21:53 ben_vulpes: and yet - subvocalization works.

06:21:58 ben_vulpes: who said gloves?!

06:22:05 thestringpuller: asciilifeform rides a motorcycle?!?!?!?

06:22:10 *: asciilifeform vaguely recalls thread originally about gloves

06:22:21 *: asciilifeform does not own motorcycle, but owns gloves

06:22:24 ben_vulpes: sounds like a bad engineering decision with small radar modules in the pipeline.

06:22:51 asciilifeform: small radar modules are 1990s off-the-shelf sop. buy, try.

06:23:08 ben_vulpes: point?

06:23:26 asciilifeform: point that everyone seems to insist on 'pissing on the electric fence himself'

06:23:39 asciilifeform: who am i to say they oughtn't.

06:23:40 ben_vulpes: that the "computer" i haul everywhere cannot make a realtime 3d model of its surroundings is hilarious.

06:23:45 thestringpuller: 'pissing on the electric fence himselfi think someone died from

06:23:50 thestringpuller: that recently

06:24:09 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-06-2014#702588

06:24:09 assbot: Logged on 04-06-2014 17:34:30; asciilifeform: 'some learn from book; others, from example; the rest must piss on the electric fence personally'

06:24:28 thestringpuller: well pissing on the electric fence is a one time thing

06:24:32 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what doesn't work? resolution? speed? the whole not being a phased array and so incapable of reconstructing 3d?

06:24:33 asciilifeform: nah

06:24:43 asciilifeform: most modern fences are 'humane' and have pulsed power

06:25:00 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2496 @ 0.0011998 = 2.9947 BTC [+]

06:25:11 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: consider saying a little re: what kind of gadget you have in mind

06:25:15 asciilifeform: if not glove.

06:25:35 asciilifeform: (a while ago the 'keyboards' thread touched on the ancient idea of 'data gloves')

06:25:45 ben_vulpes: an example, if you will. not the ideal, but an example.

06:25:47 decimation: asciilifeform: my 'glove' idea was really a robot hand that would gently connect above your hand, to provide 'feedback' - but I agree that 'spring-like' action would be very difficult/expensive

06:25:53 thestringpuller: nvm it was a lampost

06:25:55 thestringpuller: http://www.hngn.com/articles/40987/20140901/spanish-teen-fatally-electrocuted-urinating-lamppost.htm

06:26:16 decimation: what about a video camera watching your gestures 'minority report' style?

06:26:36 ben_vulpes: consider the oculus rift. instead of inertial sensors, uses rangefinders/radars to perform orientation analysis and also map surroundings in real time.

06:26:43 asciilifeform: anyone who wants this, can buy now.

06:26:44 asciilifeform: http://www.celluon.com/products.php

06:26:45 assbot: Celluon ... ( http://bit.ly/12kpayl )

06:26:54 asciilifeform: (there were, iirc, other vendors)

06:27:13 asciilifeform: it's a misery. i'll do without banging hands on a tabletop or waving them in air, thanks.

06:27:14 decimation: 'minority report' interface would still have the gorilla arm problem, as it was demonstrated in the movie, but in theory one could devise an armrest of some kind

06:27:24 asciilifeform: it's not an issue of lack of rest

06:27:28 asciilifeform: but lack of amortizer.

06:27:37 asciilifeform: the spring is not just masturbatory, it's an amortizer.

06:27:51 ben_vulpes: bruise prevention.

06:27:58 decimation: ;;ud amortizer

06:27:59 gribble: Google found nothing.

06:28:11 ben_vulpes: ameliorator?

06:28:13 decimation: ;;dict amortizer

06:28:14 gribble: No definition for "amortizer" could be found in wn

06:28:19 asciilifeform: shock absorber.

06:28:26 decimation: ah yes, agreed

06:28:38 ben_vulpes: amortizer's an interesting word choice :D

06:28:40 asciilifeform: amortisseur.

06:28:40 decimation: your digits/arms are meant to operate against resistance

06:28:53 BingoBoingo: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119525.msg1288788#msg1288788

06:28:54 assbot: Ultraprune merged in mainline ... ( http://bit.ly/12kpdKw )

06:29:40 decimation: actually if we want to go farther, an interface that examines very fine, high speed eye movements might be a high-speed method of precise data entry

06:30:03 asciilifeform: decimation: go ask an invalid who is stuck using eye movements as keyboard, how much fun it is.

06:30:06 asciilifeform: how great for the eyes.

06:30:18 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hardphork!

06:30:24 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Back in 2012

06:30:28 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i bow to your wisdom

06:30:38 asciilifeform: or rather, the soft, squishy substrate for a hardphorq

06:30:59 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: don't bow, try it yourself. only need imagination. try 'air guitar' with keyboard, for perhaps ten minutes

06:31:03 asciilifeform: see how feels.

06:31:25 asciilifeform: so many of these ideas are testable with nothing more than your brain and a little elbow grease.

06:31:49 decimation: asciilifeform: actually, you have emphasized the 'language coprocessor' feature of the brain in the past - perhaps the best interface is a reliable speech-to-symbol synth

06:32:01 ben_vulpes: i'll pass on this particular electric fence.

06:32:04 asciilifeform: decimation: i'll go perelman before i talk to a computer.

06:32:07 decimation: lolz

06:32:50 asciilifeform: bad enough that i end up having to talk to people once in a while.

06:33:12 asciilifeform: let's put it this way - right now, my symbol (not character! symbol) error rate is near zero.

06:33:33 asciilifeform: with the best known (or conceivable - say, using human slaves) 'speech to text' - it's suddenly nonzero.

06:33:54 mats_cd03: you'll change your mind after a little carpal tunnel

06:33:57 decimation: the scene in star trek iv pops to mind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWH31pUkMF8

06:33:58 assbot: Star Trek 4 - The Voyage Home - Hello Computer - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/12kpqgC )

06:34:02 ben_vulpes: how much time do you spend typing, asciilifeform ?

06:34:09 ben_vulpes: -assets aside

06:34:09 mats_cd03: i developed it by 18. sigh.

06:34:12 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: depends what one means by 'typing'

06:34:25 ben_vulpes: what are the different meanings available?

06:34:26 asciilifeform: sitting near a keyboard? 18-24 h/ day

06:34:33 asciilifeform: actually pressing keys? less.

06:36:06 ben_vulpes: not terrifically surprsing.

06:36:12 *: ben_vulpes goes afk for a bit

06:36:20 decimation: it's time for me to retire, good evening gentlemen

06:37:12 BingoBoingo: Don't worry, retire has plenty of time for you too.

06:50:18 asciilifeform: as i understand, 'carpal tunnel' and related disease result from 'poor life choices'

06:50:51 asciilifeform: (and/or accidents of fortune, possibly, biological quirks)

06:51:15 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-09-2014#839367

06:51:15 assbot: Logged on 22-09-2014 04:33:40; asciilifeform: switching caps lock and ctrl << 'Emacs actually comes with a builting Emacs Aptitude Test. Do you remap your keyboard or the Emacs keybindings before the chords and sequences it comes with by default have wreaked havoc with your hands? If you do not do anything to make Emacs more convenient for yourself, you may not have the prerequisite aptitude to use it productive.' (naggum, who else. http://www.

06:53:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28700 @ 0.00033981 = 9.7525 BTC [+]

07:18:18 cazalla: ben_vulpes, that's dated nov 13th, bit old by now, must've missed it at the time

07:43:59 punkman: jurov: where's notary? << undergoing repairs, about 1/3 done, hopefully ready by end of week

08:05:55 cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/12/project-longstrike-launches-while-australian-citizen-extradited-to-united-states-over-silk-road-charges/

08:05:56 assbot: Project Longstrike Launches While Australian Citizen Extradited To United States Over Silk Road Charges | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1HTZCcr )

08:12:16 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: training wheels on a function wave? <<< yeah, you know, help you find it exists.

08:13:53 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: "Currently, digital currencies lack the basic protections consumers have come to expect when transacting online " << because what the "consumer" has "come to expect" is the fucking alpha and omega of the perceptible universe.

08:14:08 mircea_popescu: this needs to be broken. it's not "o noes, bitcoin wants to replace mastercard with itself". nothing like that.

08:14:21 mircea_popescu: bitcoin wants to entirely destroy the things crap such as mastercard even stands on,

08:14:27 mircea_popescu: plow it and salt it.

08:14:50 mircea_popescu: like the idea that people may be "consumers" anymore than they may be martians,

08:15:25 mircea_popescu: or the idea that what "consumers" "have come to expect" is relevant in any discussion of anything nonfiction anymore than princess leila's opinion would be.

08:15:35 mircea_popescu: leia*. for some reason i keep conflating her with the dog.

08:17:31 mircea_popescu: stupid ass paradigm wherein business has come to mean "serving consumers" and obviously then the consumerness of individual people has to be "supported" by the state, and soon enough you've got an anthill being built want it or not.

08:33:54 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-10-2013#345190 lol @last year.

08:33:54 assbot: Logged on 09-10-2013 03:46:03; mircea_popescu: i am amused at the noobs that still don't grasp why their average bitcoin lifespan is less than a year.

09:11:13 mircea_popescu: !up badon

09:11:29 badon: hi mircea_popescu

09:11:32 badon: Thanks

09:11:35 mircea_popescu: ello. yw.

09:11:37 mircea_popescu: who're you ?

09:11:52 badon: mircea_popescu: Me? I'm badon.

09:12:00 mircea_popescu: hehe ok.

09:12:27 BingoBoingo: He came here because he heard about DoS bot

09:12:36 badon: Right.

09:12:47 badon: I'm still here because I'm trying to figure out what this chan is about :)

09:13:04 BingoBoingo: Give it a few months

09:14:13 BingoBoingo: .bait

09:14:13 mircea_popescu: badon this chan is the public forum of a new power in the world, ie, the people who have been made immensely rich by bitcoin and are slowly but surely taking over the world.

09:14:14 punkman: badon, I've come across coincompendium a couple times, is that your thing?

09:14:30 BingoBoingo: badon: Should have been here for n00dz bot

09:15:19 badon: punkman: Yes, it is. Apparently it's rapidly becoming much more well-known.

09:15:48 badon: punkman: It was pretty obscure until a few months ago, so I'm still reacting with surprise when people ask me about it out of the blue.

09:16:13 mircea_popescu: "The Coin Compendium needs your financial support to remain in operation for the month of December 2014! Other ways you can help: Donate images."

09:16:16 mircea_popescu: what's it do ?

09:16:25 badon: mircea_popescu: I was investing in silver when Bitcoin was $0.25.

09:16:39 mircea_popescu: how did that go ?

09:17:01 badon: mircea_popescu: It's sort of a comprehensive market database. It contains lots of fine-grained data, and it's also able to give a more general overview.

09:17:17 mircea_popescu: link me to something that'll make it obvious to me ?

09:17:29 badon: mircea_popescu: I used my silver (and palladium, etc) profits to fund investments in rare modern Chinese coins, which I'm still doing.

09:17:56 badon: mircea_popescu: Hmm, OK, let me think for a bit about that. Maybe you could read the Fundly description?

09:18:09 badon: I hope that's good, but I really don't know since I haven't gotten any feedback about it yet.

09:18:25 badon: It's big and complex, as one of the largest wikis in the world.

09:18:28 mircea_popescu: well no, if you make an engine and i ask "show me the part that'll make me grok wtf this is" you don't wanna show a leaflet.

09:18:37 badon: haha, right.

09:18:44 mircea_popescu: i'll think you're a playwright or something.

09:19:13 badon: I plan on giving people access to it via a browser plugin, so it will automatically show interesting data about something whenever you're looking at it.

09:19:38 badon: For example, each coin known to the CC can be tracked on its journey through time and space.

09:20:48 mircea_popescu: sort-of like that five dollar bill novelty website or w/e it was where people kept writing on dollars ?

09:20:57 badon: haha, something like that.

09:21:14 badon: Well, actually, the CC can track a single bill by its serial number.

09:21:36 badon: In practice, the CC only tracks what people think is important enough to enter into the CC.

09:21:43 badon: So, ordinary $5 bills don't get tracked.

09:21:49 mircea_popescu: so the site will work well if a lot of people external to it put a lot of work into doing things in a certain way it prescribes for their benefit ?

09:22:30 badon: No, that was the original plan, but it failed because it's too complicated, and there's too much data that can easily become a problem if it's not correctly entered.

09:22:40 badon: So, the CC has a professional data entry team now.

09:23:49 badon: "External" people (as you say) can request an account of course. We watch what they do carefully, and I'm planning on creating a class of users that can only edit info, not add more pages. It's much easier to fix mistakes on otherwise correctly entered data.

09:24:10 badon: I should really keep a handy thing of usage examples.

09:24:20 badon: I'm getting asked this more often.

09:24:32 badon: It's really hard to predict how people will use the CC's data.

09:24:40 mircea_popescu: so basically you're doing a wikipedia alt-chain, got raped for the one-blockchain reason and are now trying to make it work in a private fantasy world.

09:25:43 badon: mircea_popescu: Haha, no.

09:25:50 badon: It's very different from Wikipedia.

09:25:55 mircea_popescu: dja know what i mean by the "one-blockchain" reason ?

09:26:04 badon: no

09:26:10 mircea_popescu: then how do you know if yes or no ?

09:26:31 badon: Because it's not an alternative to Wikipedia.

09:26:39 mircea_popescu: but it runs on mediawiki.

09:26:48 badon: Right, but it's heavily customized.

09:27:03 badon: Wikipedia is incapable of handling the computing demands.

09:27:05 mircea_popescu: if it is that's not directly obvious. like how ?

09:27:25 mircea_popescu: afaik it copies wikipedia even to the "need donation" point. i really can't discern any structural difference ?

09:27:31 badon: We run Semantic MediaWiki (SMW), which handles very sophisticated data relationships.

09:27:55 badon: For example, there are 3 main kinds of data: Types, Specimens, and Sightings.

09:28:06 badon: They are hierarchical, in that order.

09:28:33 badon: A coin you hold in your hand is a specimen. Other coins like it are of the same type. When you see one of them being sold on ebay, that's a sighting.

09:28:38 mircea_popescu: this is like a parallel universe look at that!

09:28:45 mircea_popescu: "The technical foundation of the Semantic Web is given by the standards RDF - Resource Description Framework (for data description), OWL - Web Ontology Language (for giving the RDF terms a formal meaning), and SPARQL - SPARQL Protocol and RDF Query Language (as a query language and protocol)."

09:29:17 badon: Yeah, we hide most of that complexity at the CC, which is saying a lot considering how complicated it is already.

09:29:26 badon: One moment, let me show you a real world example.

09:29:30 BingoBoingo: Related, maybe? https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-65Kw_kSem9c/VHkvdNU9kAI/AAAAAAAAEnI/eSso28-Y_p8/s1600/bnw.jpg

09:29:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1y9DMta )

09:30:24 BingoBoingo: RDF sucks. MARC records are better.

09:30:29 mircea_popescu: stuff the w3c has been doing long after everyone stopped paying attention i guess.

09:30:48 BingoBoingo: MARC reads much more cleanly from tape reels

09:31:31 badon: mircea_popescu: Here's a real world research excursion I embarked on: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=5632.msg38430#msg38430

09:31:33 assbot: MCC LIST #183: 2014, collectors, pullback 9 reasons, food, coin-medal-whatever ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybBHlC )

09:31:33 BingoBoingo: Set it and forget it. None of that line noise on the audio jack and nao all of your XML is borked bullshit.

09:31:42 punkman: http://i.imgur.com/4y4rW0J.png

09:31:44 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybBHCa )

09:31:50 mircea_popescu: livebusinesschat ?!

09:31:58 mircea_popescu: this isn't going to try and pop webcams is it ?

09:32:02 badon: That one is complicated, and shows off some of the power of the CC, but you might not understand it if you're not savvy about the particular market we're talking about.

09:32:08 badon: This example is simpler: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=5632.msg38414#msg38414

09:32:11 assbot: MCC LIST #183: 2014, collectors, pullback 9 reasons, food, coin-medal-whatever ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybBKOp )

09:32:33 badon: mircea_popescu: No, it's very tame business discussion group - basically my personal hobby/blog site.

09:32:37 mircea_popescu: punkman bring wet towels.

09:32:51 mircea_popescu: badon you run your personal website on smf ?

09:32:55 badon: The star of the show are the lists.

09:32:57 mircea_popescu: you might be the weirdest guy here.

09:33:00 badon: mircea_popescu: Yes, I love SMF.

09:33:14 mircea_popescu: ;;ident badon

09:33:14 gribble: Nick 'badon', with hostmask 'badon!~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon', is not identified.

09:33:15 badon: mircea_popescu: You haven't seen anything yet. We use SMF at the CC forum as a bug tracking system.

09:33:30 mircea_popescu: badon listen, get registered in the wot, i'll rate you just for nubbins` pleasure.

09:33:34 mircea_popescu: also

09:33:37 mircea_popescu: !s coin

09:33:38 assbot: 4513 results for 'coin' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=coin

09:33:49 badon: I think I'm register in WoT. What do I do next?

09:33:54 mircea_popescu: ^ there's a lot of coin discussion in the logs, including offers to sell stuff etc.

09:34:01 mircea_popescu: ;;rate badon 1 Coin guy.

09:34:01 gribble: Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.

09:34:11 mircea_popescu: well, you think wrong. lemme dig the link.

09:34:16 badon: Web of Trust?

09:34:24 davout: hello

09:34:26 mircea_popescu: http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets <

09:34:27 assbot: first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybBQ8x )

09:34:30 mircea_popescu: hello davout

09:34:38 badon: Check this out, our SMF bug tracker: https://forum.coincompendium.com/index.php?board=27.0

09:34:40 assbot: CCT407 Data entry error reports and confirmations ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybBQ8P )

09:34:44 badon: IT's a great way to abuse a forum :)

09:35:12 mircea_popescu: im sure the script kiddies in our related webinar will be all over that.

09:35:24 punkman: badon: you should probably watch out for that ddos bot, now that your links are in the logs

09:35:25 badon: What do you mean?

09:35:37 badon: punkman: How so?

09:35:40 davout: badon: to abuse bitcointalk a brain is sufficient, no need to resort to hacking

09:35:41 badon: You mean our websites?

09:35:47 badon: haha

09:35:54 mircea_popescu: badon i mean there's all sorts of kids reading the logs (ie, the "Webinar" lol)

09:36:02 badon: davout: That's the thing, it's not hacked, it's stock.

09:36:34 badon: We use plain vanilla SMF as a bug tracker, because a bug tracker is basically a forum. Same thing for a blog at LBC.

09:36:39 mircea_popescu: davout wait, wasn't tardstalk run on a newly made software by some one-guy company that got paid half a trillion dollars for that ?

09:37:02 punkman: mircea_popescu: no they are still working on that

09:37:13 mircea_popescu: oh.

09:37:49 BingoBoingo: http://www.firebox.com/product/6501/Mouse-Taxidermy-Kit

09:37:50 assbot: Mouse Taxidermy Kit - buy at Firebox.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1y9GDlW )

09:37:58 mircea_popescu: who

09:38:01 mircea_popescu: what

09:38:04 mircea_popescu: oh nevermind!

09:38:09 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 15 @ 0.10100401 = 1.5151 BTC [-]

09:39:12 badon: mircea_popescu: Anyway, did you see the simple research example? It's basically checking past sales prices, but the power of the CC allows you to count the number of specimen appearances on the market to determine rarity. Ordinary price guides would just show a bunch of sales, with no epiphany that all those sales are actually only the same 2 coin specimens over and over. The number of sales alone would mislead you into thinking the

09:39:12 badon: coins aren't as rare as they truly are.

09:39:30 davout: mircea_popescu: successfully leading an it project: hard

09:39:46 badon: davout: Yeah.

09:39:52 mircea_popescu: badon i see.

09:40:27 mircea_popescu: actually, what i see : you've got a passion for coins and are throwing software at it. nothing wrong with that.

09:40:37 badon: Right!

09:40:56 mircea_popescu: get in the wot an' talk to nubbins` you'll be like two peas in a pod.

09:41:12 badon: what is "the wot"?

09:41:24 mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust davout

09:41:25 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask davout!~davout@unaffiliated/davout. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user davout: Level 1: 3, Level 2: 24 via 14 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=davout | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=davout | Rated since: Thu Jan 27 16:22:24 2011

09:41:31 mircea_popescu: ^ that thing.

09:41:38 badon: nubbins :No such nick/channel

09:41:44 badon: whois result

09:41:53 mircea_popescu: you proly missed the `

09:42:09 mircea_popescu: he's special.

09:42:17 davout: it's like the IRC nick hairgel

09:42:27 punkman: heh

09:42:27 mircea_popescu: exactly!

09:42:42 BingoBoingo: !up badon

09:42:48 badon: right

09:42:59 davout: mircea_popescu: btw i'd be interested on feedback wrt http://fr.anco.is/2014/11/21/x-eur-november-20th-2014-statement/

09:43:00 assbot: X.EUR November 20th 2014 statement | fr.anco.is ... ( http://bit.ly/1yyosYT )

09:43:00 badon: #hypothes.is is surprisingly similar to the CC.

09:43:04 mircea_popescu: you also can't really be voiced here without a wot.

09:43:30 mircea_popescu: davout ask and thou shalt receive.

09:43:32 davout: you can't disable the auto-stfu

09:43:35 badon: [nubbins`] #bitcoin-otc +#bitcoin-assets

09:44:28 mircea_popescu: davout if you're around on the 15th i dun see any reason for it to take more than a few minutes.

09:44:52 badon: mircea_popescu, punkman: Have you heard of "the badon effect"?

09:44:52 BingoBoingo: badon: He's canadian and a printer. nubbins` is probably SLP atm

09:44:57 davout: mircea_popescu: that's if you're around too

09:45:26 mircea_popescu: davout yes, but can you find a day i wasn't around ?

09:46:03 mircea_popescu: badon nope.

09:46:08 badon: Check out this chart here, it shows my influence over the rare Chinese coin market: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=5632.msg37707#msg37707

09:46:10 assbot: MCC LIST #183: 2014, collectors, pullback 9 reasons, food, coin-medal-whatever ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybCgMg )

09:46:28 davout: if there's a day you weren't around i would be able to identify this particular day, yes :-)

09:46:41 badon: Today I was just notified that someone is sending me a few hundred dollars worth of free coins to me, solely because he likes them and he wants me to write about them more often.

09:46:54 badon: That has never happened before.

09:47:09 punkman: badon, maybe you should add a bitcoin category on CC

09:47:47 mircea_popescu: badon ok, so you're getting some traction. murky market as all hell, will prolly be a challenge to stay on top of everything.

09:47:52 badon: The funny thing is, it's a prominent fellow in China who can't even read English. They have noticed the badon effect all the way in China, despite the fact all my writings are only in English. That's like causing a tsunami in Japan by flushing the toilet in Detroit.

09:48:03 mircea_popescu: "I try to identify & buy into the hype in the beginning or as it is happening (the pro's would be about 2 steps ahead of me) but not after the initial rush because of the lower potential for price rise."

09:48:09 mircea_popescu: sounds exactly like a bitcoin gem.

09:48:11 badon: mircea_popescu: It is a challenge, truth be told, that's why the CC is so handy.

09:48:14 mircea_popescu: fucktarded us "consumers" ruining the world.

09:48:24 badon: mircea_popescu: That's also why the market is so reliably profitable.

09:48:41 mircea_popescu: won't be for too long.

09:48:46 badon: punkman: That's an interesting idea, but I haven't been able to envision a way to make that work. Do you have something in mind?

09:49:12 davout: mircea_popescu: a way to speed the rollover up would be to not wait for each other to be around to perform our respective steps in the process

09:49:16 mircea_popescu: badon you're familiar with the various "physical bitcoin" issues that often sell for whatever, 15k

09:49:21 punkman: badon, I mean bitcoin-themed physical coins

09:49:26 badon: mircea_popescu: Yes, those would be trackable.

09:49:35 badon: Yes, physical bitcoins can be tracked.

09:49:48 mircea_popescu: davout i can do that, sure. just, hadn't seen you in a while wanted to see if you still move or what.

09:50:25 mircea_popescu: " I don't mind over paying a little as the wise man baden always says, to get what I like but I have limits & they are based on potential of growth, 10% is better than bank interest but I would rather a potential 50% - 2000%!!!!! (savvy or greedy?!)"

09:50:28 badon: I could create a project for it at the CC, if someone wanted to oversee it. I'm not qualified to do it myself, and we don't have the funding to have the CC team do it without some major help.

09:50:32 mircea_popescu: !!!!! helps in business i find.

09:50:38 davout: wunderbar, let's do it like this

09:50:46 mircea_popescu: aite, aite.

09:51:17 badon: mircea_popescu: Coins from China with a mintage of 100 can be bought for under $200 if you're lucky. The same coin in a mature numismatic market could sell for millions of dollars.

09:51:23 BingoBoingo: Is !!!!! the new =====

09:51:32 mircea_popescu: what's a "mintage of 100" mean ?

09:51:39 badon: mircea_popescu: 100 coins produced.

09:52:15 mircea_popescu: seems to me that "mature numismatic market" contains some presupositions that won't hold after you flood it with random coins.

09:52:30 badon: mircea_popescu: Mintages of 500'000 are considered unusually small.

09:52:51 badon: mircea_popescu: You are correct in your impression, to a degree.

09:52:53 mircea_popescu: anyway, do you have or can you get chinese coins from 100 ad sort of thing ? that'd be more on point for millions of dollars.

09:52:59 badon: That's why the comparison isn't 1-to-1

09:53:12 badon: yes, you can get coins like that.

09:53:54 mircea_popescu: http://www.ebay.com/bhp/roman-denarius << wow check out how cheap the denarius is even

09:53:56 assbot: Roman Denarius | eBay ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybCxyU )

09:53:56 mircea_popescu: i had no idea.

09:54:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82927 @ 0.00034055 = 28.2408 BTC [+] {2}

09:54:37 badon: Actually, the differences between Western mature numismatic markets and China's immature numismatic market, may not be a negative factor for the profit potentials in Chinese coins. For example, important American art might sell for a few tens of millions of dollars. Fairly unknown Chinese art can sell for hundreds of millions of dollars.

09:55:00 mircea_popescu: uh.

09:55:03 badon: mircea_popescu: That's an excellent example of why age and rarity alone are not good determinations of value, nor investment potential.

09:55:22 mircea_popescu: maybe you're seeing too much into the natural excesses of first generation chinese new money.

09:55:25 badon: China goes big, much more so than the West.

09:55:39 badon: mircea_popescu: No, I'm talking about in general, historically, not only now.

09:56:10 badon: For example, if you look at a wikipedia list of the largest empires, I think the Romans don't even rank in the top 10.

09:56:23 mircea_popescu: what's your definition of "largest" ?

09:56:35 badon: mircea_popescu: The lists are sortable by land area and population.

09:56:46 mircea_popescu: yeah but i mean... who cares.

09:56:48 badon: If I remember correctly, the comparison still held for both.

09:56:59 mircea_popescu: im sure some sort of something or the other was big in south and north america. so what of it.

09:57:09 badon: The point is that comparing China to the West can cause severe under-estimation of profit potentials in the Chinese coins.

09:57:34 mircea_popescu: you're too meta.

09:57:41 mircea_popescu: profit may be overestimated or underestimated.

09:57:53 mircea_popescu: profit potential however can not be either.

09:58:21 mircea_popescu: it's a potential, unless it actualizes you never know how well you did estimating it.

09:58:22 badon: mircea_popescu: I call my shots publicly. Check my track record at LBC. No financial analyst in any market ever in the history of ever has been as accurate as I am.

09:58:32 mircea_popescu: that's a common claim.

09:58:41 badon: In other words, please investigate what I'm saying. It's valuable info.

09:58:58 mircea_popescu: how long have you been at it ?

09:59:03 badon: Since 2004.

09:59:12 badon: Publicly, that is.

09:59:26 badon: I've been doing it far longer privately.

09:59:37 mircea_popescu: not bad.

09:59:50 badon: I don't publish everything I'm doing, but what I have published is very impressive if I do say so myself.

09:59:51 mircea_popescu: so link me to something from 2005 ?

10:00:24 badon: For example, when I was investing in silver, I called the direction and timing of market changes with 100% accuracy. I made a convenient chart of my predictions somewhere, let me see if I can find it.

10:00:55 mircea_popescu: kay. unrelatedly, how much is http://d1j7du92h5z3wu.cloudfront.net/ss/banners/large728/perthbullion.gif paying for that spot ?

10:00:57 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybCRh1 )

10:01:43 badon: looking

10:02:31 mircea_popescu: it's the banner on forums.silverstackers.com

10:02:35 badon: I don't know.

10:02:56 mircea_popescu: o, not your forum ?

10:03:04 badon: You could ask them. That's a popular site. They used to talk about my articles a lot there. Not sure if they do now, though.

10:03:13 badon: No, silverstackers.com is not mine.

10:03:32 badon: Well, I'm not going to publicly acknowledge it as mine, if it were :)

10:04:03 mircea_popescu: mkay.

10:05:44 BingoBoingo: !up xinxiwang

10:05:45 mircea_popescu: !up xinxiwang

10:05:48 mircea_popescu: ha!

10:06:00 xinxiwang: haha, thanks to you two.

10:06:14 BingoBoingo: I'm gassy. I probably shouldn't have had an entire broccoli

10:06:43 badon: mircea_popescu: The silver chart is eluding me. You can see a review of my predictions for 2014, dating back to 2012, here: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=5632.msg37706#msg37706

10:06:46 assbot: MCC LIST #183: 2014, collectors, pullback 9 reasons, food, coin-medal-whatever ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybD5Vj )

10:07:01 mircea_popescu: badon 2014 to 2012 is substantially a weaker claim than "since 2004".

10:07:58 badon: mircea_popescu: That's when the discussion group was founded. I'm not sure how far back my articles go. At least to 2009, for articles that are still online on the SMF forum site.

10:08:27 mircea_popescu: you familiar with how split list scamming works ?

10:08:35 badon: You'll have to look, I honestly don't remember how far back it goes. I have hundreds of articles, and I think there's a chronological list somewhere...

10:08:41 badon: mircea_popescu: No, what is that?

10:09:00 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/

10:09:01 assbot: How to make money on the Internet while pretending you know what you're talking about and accumulating a legion of mindless followers - for fun and profit! pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybDbfR )

10:09:16 badon: Oh, it's selection bias.

10:09:47 mircea_popescu: not exactly.

10:10:02 badon: I don't have that, because I don't delete any of my published posts, including the ones I would prefer to go away.

10:10:17 mircea_popescu: well, how would i know ?

10:10:30 mircea_popescu: for all it can be directly established, you wiped your 2004-2012 history ?

10:11:02 badon: mircea_popescu: I have a lot of enemies at the china-mint.info forum. They have tried to find fault, so ask them if I delete my own posts.

10:11:06 badon: They will tell you no.

10:11:12 mircea_popescu: but they're not in my wot

10:11:19 mircea_popescu: so they might as well not exist far as im concerned.

10:11:21 badon: Chronological list: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/?page=badon

10:11:33 badon: Here's one from 2005: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=101.0

10:11:36 assbot: Investing in palladium ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybDerZ )

10:11:43 badon: I made ridiculous money on palladium.

10:12:07 mircea_popescu: dja know tort uh, i mean, r pietilla ?

10:12:27 badon: Myself and a guy in Canada were the only people in the world to publish a prediction about palladium. He got lucky. I kept doing it over, and over, and over, for 10 years and counting.

10:12:49 BingoBoingo: !up badon

10:13:05 BingoBoingo: badon: What are your thoughts on the plutonium market?

10:13:29 badon: BingoBoingo: certain varieties of it are currently the most commercially valuable substance in existence.

10:13:46 badon: Despite what Guiness says...

10:14:37 badon: Plutonium is directly tied to the uranium market, so rising value of plutonium is reflected as rising value in uranium.

10:14:41 BingoBoingo: I'm just wondering if there's any risk someone might start up production on a scale that hypothetically/allegedly would tank its value

10:14:56 badon: You can often discern secret nuclear activities by watching uranium valuations.

10:15:03 badon: BingoBoingo: Doubtful.

10:15:33 badon: It's extremely difficult to produce plutonium unnoticed, and you have to have a military to tell other militaries not to try to stop you from producing it.

10:15:47 badon: Well, difficult to produce salable quantities, that is.

10:16:03 badon: salable/priceable.

10:16:27 BingoBoingo: What about once you have it? Hypothetically... At that point concerns about headcount to protect it go out the windows... Kind of the flipside of gold.

10:16:41 badon: What do you mean, BingoBoingo?

10:17:00 badon: Plutonium can and does get seized when it ends up in private handns.

10:17:08 badon: hands

10:17:09 BingoBoingo: Well, a giant collection of plutonium kind of protects itself.

10:17:15 badon: No, not really.

10:17:23 badon: That protection needs to be rigorously organized.

10:17:35 BingoBoingo: Or you make the pile bigger

10:17:37 badon: Simply having plutonium just makes you an easy target for a drone missile.

10:18:01 mircea_popescu: who shoots missiles at radioactive material lol

10:18:12 BingoBoingo: Sure, but also deters other people from walking up and taking the pile.

10:18:18 badon: Plutonium's existence can be easily detected from mere air sampling in the general region. You can't hide the fact that someone near you has it.

10:18:28 badon: mircea_popescu: It's happened before.

10:18:35 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo in what parallel universe do the thorns on the cactus prevent tequilla production ?

10:18:48 mircea_popescu: badon where when ?

10:18:49 badon: The USA has missilized downed satellites with nuclear material on them when they land in places like Iran.

10:19:56 badon: Most of it is secret information, but I seem to recall an event in the 1990's, but I don't remember where. There might have been one more recently too.

10:19:57 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: point

10:20:41 badon: I think there was a movie scene that showed something like that happening too, which was interesting.

10:21:01 badon: Usually they can't be retrieved like the movie showed, because it's too dangerous.

10:21:18 badon: I can't remember what movie.

10:21:32 badon: It's in my head somewhere, but the problem with having lots of info is it can take a while to find it.

10:22:45 badon: mircea_popescu: Can you tell me about this "wot" thing that does voicing in here?

10:23:20 mircea_popescu: it's a web of trust. what do you want to know ?

10:23:26 BingoBoingo: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/04/11_bitcoin-assets-new-wot-and-voice-model.html badon

10:23:27 assbot: #bitcoin-assets new WoT and voice model ... ( http://bit.ly/1FJfdYa )

10:24:06 badon: mircea_popescu: Just how to register with it.

10:24:46 mircea_popescu: gave you the link above.

10:24:49 BingoBoingo: http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication

10:24:50 assbot: GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1FJflqG )

10:24:50 mircea_popescu: scrollup.

10:25:59 BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-10-2014#885588

10:25:59 assbot: Logged on 21-10-2014 00:34:41; BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: And maybe people learn not to visit datacenters uninvited...

10:26:59 badon: reading...

10:27:46 BingoBoingo: !up karma

10:56:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27371 @ 0.00034618 = 9.4753 BTC [+]

10:56:44 cazalla: so, diff drop or what?

11:05:52 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/the-mobile-revolution-or-what-consumers-have-come-to-expect/

11:05:53 assbot: The mobile "revolution", or what consumers have come to expect pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1vEVSWP )

11:06:02 mircea_popescu: ;;nethash

11:06:02 gribble: 292636414.903

11:06:07 mircea_popescu: looks like it cazalla

11:08:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95850 @ 0.00034265 = 32.843 BTC [-] {3}

11:33:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87875 @ 0.00035414 = 31.1201 BTC [+] {3}

11:41:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: it wasn't the vendor. <<< maybe it was the vendor's useless bf.

11:43:51 mircea_popescu: mike_c: assbot plz send donation to b-a donation address. << lol troll!

11:44:41 mircea_popescu: decimation: why should I trust some derp who 'volunteers' for arch over the upstream creator? <<< so very much this, o lordy.

11:45:02 mircea_popescu: it's how the entire "do-ocracy" nonsense got its cognitive start. the rebellion of the cleaning ladies, basically.

11:49:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: decimation: and aha, these aren't piss-ant led lights either. ccfl tubes - which means they can't be cranked down all the much (and stay lit) <<< this is the deal breaker for me. i actually run the monitors at about 50% gamma.

11:50:38 mircea_popescu: mike_c: for "my" safety. except i'm not liable for fraud. so actually they are being a pain in my ass for their safety. fucking home depot. << haha EXACTLY.

11:50:53 mircea_popescu: "for your safety, please suck my cock" is what all those things reduce to.

11:52:09 mircea_popescu: decimation: like, you know, so you can share in the bounty of their information? << good point this.

11:52:58 mircea_popescu: cutting out like 2/3 of the value of all that collection (the actual guy wanting receipt copies etc) because well... they gotta be weird teenagers about it and do it voyeuristically. not the same thing if you know about it. except of course you know. but wait, suspension of dsibelief!

11:53:56 mircea_popescu: decimation:cazalla: I use 'generic' rewards card << but... why ?

11:56:36 mircea_popescu: ahahahaha nobel prize eh ?

11:56:38 mircea_popescu: lettucee see

11:57:42 mircea_popescu: meh, not worth million whatever.

11:57:49 mircea_popescu: i'd pay fiddy bucks for one, and that's generous.

11:57:54 mircea_popescu: exactly what tits make.

12:02:08 jurov: mircea_popescu: how is the foundation supposed to be zero asset corp. when it maintains treasury?

12:04:43 jurov: realized while putting together the statement

12:07:11 mircea_popescu: jurov why is it supposed to be anything i nparticular ?

12:08:11 jurov: i was under impresion it was, dunno why

12:08:30 davout: "these are not the problems you are looking for"

12:08:31 jurov: will do it as AN0

12:08:40 jurov: lol

12:09:01 mircea_popescu: hm ?

12:10:26 mircea_popescu: "It is a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works for him to think that his expertise at one level of analysis?a molecular level?predicts anything at a higher level of analysis. The structure of DNA does not predict the workings of a cell, which does not predict the shape of a body, which does not predict the characteristics of a culture."

12:10:35 mircea_popescu: check out anon slate expert getting militant!

12:10:44 mircea_popescu: NO PREDICTION BITCH! THINGS JUST HAPPEN!

12:11:02 mircea_popescu: prolly obama predicts the workings of a cell.

12:15:23 *: adlai steals "That's like causing a tsunami in Japan by flushing the toilet in Detroit.", thx badon!

12:15:24 adlai: !up badon

12:15:47 badon: adlai: Haha, yeah, I thought that was snappy!

12:17:10 mircea_popescu: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/doing-good-science/2014/12/01/james-watsons-sense-of-entitlement-and-misunderstandings-of-science-that-need-to-be-countered/ << check out SA laying down the law of the land. "Positioning James Watson as a very special scientist who deserves special treatment above and beyond the recognition of the Nobel committee feeds the problematic narrative of scientific knowledge as an achieveme

12:17:12 assbot: James Watson’s sense of entitlement, and misunderstandings of science that need to be countered. | Doing Good Science, Scientific American Blog Network ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMvB8m )

12:17:12 mircea_popescu: nt of great men (and yes, in this narrative, it is usually great men who are recognized). This narrative ignores the fundamentally social nature of scientific knowledge-building and the fact that objectivity is the result of teamwork."

12:17:19 mircea_popescu: IF YOU MAKE A DISCOVERY YOU DIDN'T MAKE THAT DISCOVERY

12:17:27 mircea_popescu: TEAM OBAMA 4 SCIENCE!!11erleventy

12:19:03 mircea_popescu: "knowledge-building team" is it now. a hunter^H^H^H^H^H^H-gatherer perspective on science! there's no hunters, just a buncha women sitting around by a bush doing knowledge-building.

12:19:24 mircea_popescu: "Indeed, part of the danger of the hero narrative is that scientists themselves may start to believe it. They can come to see themselves as individuals possessing more powers of objectivity than other humans (thus fundamentally misunderstanding where objectivity comes from)"

12:19:52 mircea_popescu: i find this quite scandalous. the "everything of value comes from socialism" narrative is pernicious enoughm

12:19:59 mircea_popescu: but that's utter nonsense. objectivity is exactly heroic.

12:21:19 mircea_popescu: anyway, basically this entire thing is a "you don't get to have any ~intellectual~ capital either, it all belongs to the state, to be used as slate anon editor directs it to be used".

12:21:26 mircea_popescu: nationalize all the things!

12:23:43 mircea_popescu: "In order that the unfortunate views not overshadow the big scientific contribution, some of these folks would rather we stop talking about Watson?s having made the claims he has made about racial difference (although Watson shows no apparent regret for holding these views, only for having voiced them to reporters)." << and the mechanics of "regret", ie, we won't stop being stupid, the victim has to abjure!

12:24:05 mircea_popescu: quite instructive piece on the mechanics of us socialism, all the various bits in full view.

12:27:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34850 @ 0.00035523 = 12.3798 BTC [+] {2}

12:28:02 mircea_popescu: His views are also reflected in a book published next week, in which he writes: "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."

12:28:10 mircea_popescu: anyone willing to argue against that has my full attention.

12:29:43 adlai: source?

12:29:50 adlai: ah the sciam article

12:30:22 mircea_popescu: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/fury-at-dna-pioneers-theory-africans-are-less-intelligent-than-westerners-394898.html << some thing in 2007.

12:30:22 assbot: Fury at DNA pioneer's theory: Africans are less intelligent than Westerners - Science - News - The Independent ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMzlXx )

12:30:43 mircea_popescu: such a ridiculous point the soviets have chosen to center their purges around.

12:30:56 mircea_popescu: i mean seriously, the intelligence ~of groups~ ? wtf does that even mean.

12:30:58 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $250 before 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1078/ Odds: 16(Y):84(N) by coin, 16(Y):84(N) by weight. Total bet: 10.91760042 BTC. Current weight: 93,949.

12:31:18 mircea_popescu: given that clams are somewhat intelligent, is a large enough collection of clams more intelligent than victoria nuland ?

12:31:50 mircea_popescu: there's no fucking usable definition of intelligence, we've yet to build a computer model of intelligence, yet these people talk of some sort of statistical intelligence as if it were a thing.

12:31:56 mircea_popescu: i dunno how they manage to be this stupid.

12:32:46 adlai: it seems completely obvious that evolution of geographically separated populations progresses separately... a more interesting question is what proportion of population A fall behind the median of population B

12:33:20 nubbins`: hi

12:33:21 mircea_popescu: the median of an undefined attribute you don't even have a measure of,

12:33:24 mircea_popescu: let alone a SCALAR measure ?

12:33:25 nubbins`: baidon

12:33:25 adlai: eg "the average man is faster than the average woman, the fastest woman is faster than most men, but the fastest man is MUCH faster than the fastest woman"

12:33:32 nubbins`: er badon

12:33:33 mircea_popescu: what the fuck is the median of a set of tensors ?

12:33:34 nubbins`: so many pages!

12:33:43 badon: hi nubbins`

12:34:18 nubbins`: hey

12:34:21 nubbins`: so you're a coin guy hey

12:34:21 *: adlai holds up his copy of tensor analysis, pointing at the uncracked spine. this actually exists and has actually not been cracked yet.

12:34:22 badon: My fault.

12:34:30 mircea_popescu: adlai no but see, even in your running and geneder example, you diverge. to my eyes, womanhood has to do with a nice layer of fat on he ass, as exemplified by kim say.

12:34:38 mircea_popescu: this is obviously counterproductive to running

12:34:41 adlai: lol

12:34:43 mircea_popescu: perhaps even why i like it in the first place.

12:34:50 badon: Yep, that's me. They used to call me the silver guy, or the palladium guy, or the art guy, or whatever it was I was making money in back then.

12:34:58 mircea_popescu: NOW, the faster she runs, the less of a woman she is. objectively. how do you get out of that shit.

12:35:11 adlai: the question holds for any measurable, or at least "totally ordered", attribute

12:35:24 *: adlai really must go though

12:35:25 mircea_popescu: totally ordered INDEPENDENT attribute.

12:35:28 mircea_popescu: later.

12:35:35 adlai: o/

12:35:44 nubbins`: i guess we can just call you "the guy", then

12:35:59 nubbins`: anyway, i can only assume my name was brought up because i have a passing interest in numismatics

12:36:16 nubbins`: i've got some neat physical bitcoins, some strange bullion pieces, etc

12:36:38 mircea_popescu: i thought it was a defining interest.

12:36:51 nubbins`: depends on if you talk to my accountant or not

12:37:22 badon: nubbins`: "The guy with the stuff for the thing"

12:37:29 nubbins`: my kinda guy

12:37:48 badon: nubbins`: punkman seems to have an interest in numismatics too.

12:38:01 mircea_popescu: nah, he's just greek.

12:38:20 badon: The funny thing is that he had heard of the Coin Compendium before he met me, which is taking a while for me to get used to.

12:38:36 nubbins`: heh

12:38:44 nubbins`: so what, it's like a trade/price wiki?

12:38:50 nubbins`: sort of like discogs, but for coins?

12:38:53 badon: Like mircea_popescu said, "you're getting some traction"

12:39:09 badon: nubbins`: It's a sophisticated storehouse of structured data.

12:39:22 nubbins`: so.... like discogs, but for coins 8)

12:39:29 badon: I don't know what that is.

12:39:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: but that 'removes moral dimension!' << eerily similar to fundamentalist xtians objections to hymenoplasty.

12:39:43 mircea_popescu: kinda shows that stupidity is unpatriotic by its nature. only has one country.

12:39:57 badon: As far as I know, there has never been anything like the CC before.

12:40:05 nubbins`: badon: "i wonder if this bob dylan album i bought at a flea market is a first pressing?"

12:40:09 nubbins`: badon: http://www.discogs.com/search/?q=blood+on+the+tracks

12:40:11 assbot: Searching for "blood on the tracks" within on Discogs ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMC7fk )

12:40:20 badon: looking

12:40:48 nubbins`: each item in search results is a different release, identified by catalogue number, flaws, changes in liner notes, etc etc

12:41:04 nubbins`: click a given release and you'll see notes, as well as a list of any member selling it

12:41:08 nubbins`: past sale prices, etc

12:41:18 badon: No, that's nothing at all like the CC. The CC is far more sophisticated.

12:41:29 mircea_popescu: o.O

12:41:35 nubbins`: o.O

12:41:36 badon: The CC can do everything that can do, of course.

12:41:44 nubbins`: can i buy and sell coins on the CC?

12:41:49 mircea_popescu: what are you, in love with a fucking site ?

12:42:08 badon: nubbins`: Indirectly, yes.

12:42:15 nubbins`: directly would be cool too 8)

12:42:16 nubbins`: http://www.discogs.com/sell/list?master_id=3878&ev=mb

12:42:19 assbot: Buy Bob Dylan - Blood On The Tracks (Vinyl, CD) at Discogs Marketplace ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMCIO8 )

12:42:19 badon: Hmm, maybe even directly.

12:42:30 badon: The CC does things that I don't even know it's doing.

12:42:39 badon: People come up with new stuff I hadn't thought of.

12:43:00 nubbins`: you should bump heads with melbustus on the forums, he runs spotcoins.com

12:43:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: not interested in such experiments. << try have the girl go naked for a day, srsly.

12:43:12 nubbins`: http://www.spotcoins.com/bitcoin/casascius

12:43:13 assbot: Casascius Physical Bitcoins - Price, Value, Photos, History, Series, Address Lookup | Spot Coins ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMCZk3 )

12:43:32 badon: For example, every sighting for a coin specimen has a venue URL data bit attached to it. So, if you're posting your coins on your blog and you arrange to have them entered into the CC, then yes, someone could use the CC to buy your coins.

12:44:01 nubbins`: in the sense that someone could use the google to buy my coins

12:44:09 nubbins`: but yes, i understand what you're saying

12:44:15 badon: nubbins`: Right, but it's much more focused.

12:44:18 nubbins`: right

12:44:29 nubbins`: as far as casascius coins go, the marketplace is already pretty focused

12:44:31 badon: The CC isn't really a search engine. I guess you could call it something like a correlation engine.

12:44:42 badon: It takes lots of data, and lets you connect the dots.

12:45:30 nubbins`: fun

12:45:40 nubbins`: i've got some coins with very low mintages

12:45:42 badon: nubbins`: Did you see the examples that I pasted here earlier?

12:45:48 nubbins`: (sub-1000, sub-50)

12:45:52 badon: nubbins`: What's your lowest mintage coin?

12:45:53 badon: Nice.

12:45:59 nubbins`: badon they might've been lost in the convo

12:46:11 nubbins`: my lowest mintage is a 2013 0.5btc series-2 silver casascius

12:46:24 nubbins`: http://www.spotcoins.com/bitcoin/casascius/variety/half-btc-silver-series-2

12:46:27 assbot: Casascius Coins | Spot Coins ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdexsd )

12:46:27 nubbins`: !up badon

12:46:35 nubbins`: ;;ident badon

12:46:35 gribble: Nick 'badon', with hostmask 'badon!~badon@pdpc/supporter/active/badon', is not identified.

12:46:35 badon: nubbins`: I'll repaste them, one sec. I started keeping a list of examples based on mircea_popescu questions.

12:46:44 nubbins`: get set up with gribble, why don't ya

12:46:44 mircea_popescu: gernika: What aggravates me more and more recently is the claim that mac products are well designed, when in fact they will destroy your hands. << mactardism is a very visual field. it doesn't account much for function.

12:47:14 nubbins`: they will destroy your hands how

12:47:27 nubbins`: my hyperbole parsing unit is offline

12:47:29 mircea_popescu: i dunno, i never used one. his claim.

12:47:50 badon: nubbins`: Oooh, you're a physical bitcoin collector. People here suggested that the CC should track those, but the CC would need someone to lead a project to do that.

12:47:55 nubbins`: i sort of just ended up with a bunch of apple devices

12:48:05 nubbins`: it kinda just happened

12:48:31 nubbins`: badon i don't have much time to lead projects, but like i said, spotcoins is pretty much the definitive resource

12:48:51 nubbins`: there's also a guy "elianite" on the forums who updates a casascius coin PDF with some rare specimens

12:49:03 nubbins`: it's a bit disorganized, but lots of info

12:49:11 badon: nubbins`: Only your expertise is needed. The CC project as a whole is led by me, and we have a professional data entry team to do the grunt work.

12:49:36 nubbins`: http://www.coinfirm.org/app/download/3860348/The+CoinFIRM+Casascius+Guide+v0.11+.pdf

12:49:39 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdff8K )

12:49:43 nubbins`: oh, right on.

12:49:48 badon: I know next to nothing about physical Bitcoins, and honestly, I don't have the time to become an expert in them.

12:50:03 nubbins`: i'm the closest you'll find to an expert around here

12:50:08 badon: The CC already has over 5000 types.

12:50:17 badon: nubbins`: The CC will make you seem like a genius :)

12:50:32 nubbins`: my friend, day-to-day living makes me seem that way

12:50:44 mircea_popescu: bwahahaha alpha nubbins` ? who knew!

12:50:48 nubbins`: XD

12:50:54 badon: nubbins`: If you want, I can create the project for you in the forum, and we can do some experimenting to get it rolling.

12:51:28 nubbins`: mircea_popescu i have more than once kicked a violent drunk out of a bar by suggesting that he leave 8)

12:51:44 nubbins`: badon i can't promise anything (very busy month) but if it's there, i'm more likely to poke at it

12:52:02 badon: nubbins`: By the way, the CC (and me in general) tends to make coins more valuable when comprehensive information is made available about them. That gives you an edge.

12:52:05 mircea_popescu: jujitubbins.

12:52:38 badon: It's actually a fundamental market principle that information increases the value of the commerce.

12:52:46 nubbins`: the gentle way

12:52:49 nubbins`: wait, that's judo

12:52:52 badon: So, if you want to make your bitcoin collection more valuable, let's start recording data.

12:53:10 mircea_popescu: that's such a good hook for the online crowd.

12:53:14 nubbins`: badon, i've already made some progress on that front

12:53:15 mircea_popescu: not bad.

12:53:18 badon: nubbins`: Start with a CC forum account, can you do that?

12:53:26 nubbins`: i single-handedly raised the market price for one specimen from 1.5btc to 15btc

12:53:44 badon: nubbins`: Ah, so you've had a taste of the nectar of numismatics :)

12:54:24 nubbins`: nod

12:54:29 nubbins`: current sale price is 20btc 8)

12:54:33 badon: I think physical bitcoins ought to be collectible like any other coin. They're historically important, despite not being "official" in any way.

12:54:42 nubbins`: i'm on the fence

12:54:47 nubbins`: casascius coins, sure. first of their sort.

12:54:51 badon: nubbins`: CC data has led to recognition by NGC and PCGS.

12:55:00 nubbins`: these days, everyone and their dog is making "physical cryptos" and they're all the goddamn same.

12:55:07 nubbins`: silver round w/ a holo.

12:55:20 nubbins`: those kialara bars are the only mildly interesting development since 2011

12:55:26 badon: CC can record them all - or at least all of them that are worth the bother of recording.

12:55:48 nubbins`: http://imgur.com/a/BN6M4/embed#0

12:55:49 assbot: Kialara Physical Bitcoin - Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdgRiP )

12:55:49 mircea_popescu: nubbins` that's at least in my disinterested and ignorant view, the bane of "numismatics" applied to things made after ww2.

12:55:57 badon: The CC is intended to serve as a historical record. Much of what we know about many coins would be completely lost eventually without the CC.

12:56:01 mircea_popescu: it's not unlike calling "literature" the huge pile of us produced pulp.

12:56:02 badon: looking

12:56:42 nubbins`: mircea_popescu look at the royal canadian mint for a perfect example. dozens of new designs per year, almost all of them would be "tales from the crypt volume 34" if they were books

12:57:07 mircea_popescu: i wouldn't pay above the metal for any of them either.

12:57:21 nubbins`: http://www.mint.ca/store/coins/pure-gold-ultrahigh-relief-coin-ndash-the-fierce-canadian-lynx-ndash-mintage-500-2014-prod2220074

12:57:23 assbot: Pure Gold Ultra-High Relief Coin - The Fierce Canadian Lynx - Mintage: 500 (2014) ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdhaKE )

12:57:23 mircea_popescu: i don't pay for krugerands, and those at least are historically relevant.

12:57:24 nubbins`: case in point

12:57:26 nubbins`: look at that fucking cat.

12:57:40 nubbins`: if a wildlife officer came across something that looked like that, he'd shoot it in the head

12:57:55 mircea_popescu: jesus they need a faster server.

12:57:57 nubbins`: look at the font.

12:58:11 nubbins`: "fuck it, just stretch it vertically"

12:58:25 nubbins`: they produce *maybe* 5 coins worth buying each year

12:58:40 mircea_popescu: exactly lol

12:58:46 mircea_popescu: looks to me like something a kid made in paint.

12:58:58 badon: nubbins`: That's one reason why I like the Chinese coins so much. They're still producing rare coins each year, and Chinese collectors are mostly unaware of them. Canada is not populous enough to make a coin with a mintage of 25'000 extraordinarily valuable, but China is populous enough to make a coin with a mintage of 100 extraordinarily valuable. Make sense?

12:59:23 nubbins`: sure does

12:59:38 mircea_popescu: i still don't see why some coins nobody gives a shit about would be intrinsically valuable.

12:59:40 nubbins`: now in the mint's defense, they really push the envelope feature-wise

12:59:42 mircea_popescu: whether there's 100 or 500 of them.

12:59:51 nubbins`: colored coins, enamel, glass, holograms, etc

12:59:54 badon: The high metal value coins are to be avoided. Perfect example: https://www.reddit.com/r/investing/comments/2npm32/somebody_just_made_an_easy_5k_on_ebay/

12:59:56 assbot: Somebody just made an easy $5k+ on ebay : investing ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdhJE5 )

13:00:26 mircea_popescu: badon as long as you never pay more for a coin than the metal value you're safe enough.

13:00:31 badon: mircea_popescu: It's difficult to predict which coins will be valuable, but I'm literally writing the book on the subject.

13:00:44 mircea_popescu: how about this prediction : none.

13:00:47 Naphex: is there such a thing as intrisic value?

13:01:02 mircea_popescu: nothwithstanding anecdotal success getting retarded kids to give you their lunch,

13:01:07 badon: mircea_popescu: Not true.

13:01:13 nubbins`: here's another brutal one: http://www.mint.ca/store/coins/50-for-50-fine-silver-coin-snowy-owl-2014-prod2090035#.VH24AGTF8Yc

13:01:15 assbot: $50 for $50 Fine Silver Coin - Snowy Owl (2014) ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdi9dP )

13:01:15 mircea_popescu: modern coins are worth whatever any modern item is worth.

13:01:18 mircea_popescu: Naphex kinda my point.

13:01:22 nubbins`: it's like the sculptors have never worked in relief before.

13:01:22 badon: The coin in the link had a metal value of over $14k. It sold for $9k.

13:01:52 mircea_popescu: badon not my problem, that.

13:02:04 nubbins`: altho the whole "$50 for $50" thing is neat.

13:02:05 badon: nubbins`: The collectors are fleeing the West. Everybody wants Chinese. Even the Anglosphere has reduced itself to imitating Chinese lunar coins.

13:02:12 nubbins`: there's 20 for 20, 50 for 50, 100 for 100

13:02:23 nubbins`: exchange your worthless paper for slightly-less-worthless metal!

13:02:26 badon: mircea_popescu: Beware big gold, you can lose a lot of money on it.

13:02:39 badon: nubbins`: It's all fiat.

13:02:42 nubbins`: badon i do know that chinese silver pandas are the cream

13:03:04 nubbins`: badon, yup

13:03:19 badon: nubbins`: Yeah, but they aren't all there is. The lunars are the original flagship series of the China mint. The pandas were minted for foreigners.

13:03:20 nubbins`: but i'd rather my $50 coin have a half-ounce of silver than not

13:03:38 Naphex: probably the only thing that has intrisic value is time :))

13:03:38 badon: nubbins`: You're too sophisticated for that kind of thinking.

13:03:40 mircea_popescu: badon im not into metals anyway, but i'd definitely buy metal rather than you know, fashion, hype, whatever. "the sizzle"

13:03:57 nubbins`: badon, maybe so. i've got a handful of x-for-x coins, mostly just the nice ones

13:04:09 badon: mircea_popescu: You're also too sophisticated for that kind of thinking (you're in bitcoin chans, afterall...)

13:04:09 mircea_popescu: Naphex yes, time does have intrinsic value, but backwards.

13:04:24 nubbins`: here's my nicest canadian coin: http://www.mint.ca/store/coin/pure-gold-coin-polar-bear-mintage-600-2013-prod1690011

13:04:26 assbot: Pure Gold Coin - Polar Bear - Mintage: 600 (2013) ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMIcZi )

13:04:42 Naphex: space might have some intrisic value as well

13:04:43 nubbins`: check the weight.

13:04:45 Naphex: but you have to hold it

13:04:48 Naphex: so that kinda ruins it

13:04:57 nubbins`: what, you don't have to hold time?

13:05:02 mircea_popescu: ;;google a place for my stuff

13:05:02 gribble: George Carlin - A place for my stuff - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLoge6QzcGY; George Carlin - A Place For My Stuff - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5yJpM0BGc8; A Place for My Stuff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Place_for_My_Stuff

13:05:28 mircea_popescu: nubbins` did you kick out violent times out of clocks by suggesting they space out, too ?

13:05:41 nubbins`: "don't crowd me, 4:19!"

13:05:44 nubbins`: "give me a minute!"

13:05:49 mircea_popescu: lol

13:06:20 nubbins`: the whole spacetime thing finally clicked with me like, two weeks ago, hey?

13:06:40 nubbins`: stumbled across a perfect analogy

13:07:01 mircea_popescu: "As we have learned from the experiences emanating from the Mt. Gox Bitcoin exchange collapse, the existence of a "block chain" does nothing to allow law enforcement, other government authorities or the public to identify the real identity of the parties to a digital currency transaction."

13:07:06 mircea_popescu: bwahaha. that's right, bitchez.

13:07:32 mircea_popescu: "A requirement that all transactions go through regulated and transparent administrators subject to supervision by Australia authorities (rather than just the current block chain process);"

13:07:34 mircea_popescu: bwahahha

13:07:55 Naphex: :))

13:08:02 nubbins`: http://www.mint.ca/store/coins/1-oz.-fine-silver-coloured-coin-ndash-beaver-at-work-ndash-mintage-7500-2015-prod2210326#.VH24AGTF8Yc

13:08:04 assbot: 1 oz. Fine Silver Coloured Coin - Beaver at Work - Mintage: 7,500 (2015) ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMJ3cn )

13:08:07 nubbins`: CMYK print on a coin

13:08:43 mircea_popescu: nubbins` imo all this "tech" stuff is a waste of time. i might buy a computer today because i want to use it.

13:08:57 mircea_popescu: i won't buy something high tech today that has no use, because guess what ? time flows against it.

13:09:20 nubbins`: time waits for no man, no machine

13:09:26 badon: My personal favorite recently-minted Chinese coins are these: https://www.coincompendium.com/w/index.php/CCT3564

13:09:56 badon: Mintage of 99

13:10:20 *: mircea_popescu kicks assbot

13:10:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16872 @ 0.00035303 = 5.9563 BTC [-]

13:10:42 Naphex: soo.. does bitcoin - in the current form have intrinsic value? cute question

13:10:48 nubbins`: anyway. suppose you're walking at 5km/h, due north. all of your displacement is in the y direction. now suppose you head northwest; you're walking the same speed, but you're going slower in the y direction because some of your displacement is occurring in the x direction.

13:10:58 nubbins`: now imagine the y axis is time, and the x axis is space.

13:11:10 nubbins`: sitting where you are, all your displacement is on the y (time) axis

13:11:27 nubbins`: once you start moving through space, some of your displacement is now occurring on the x (space) axis

13:11:35 nubbins`: and even though your displacement through spacetime has not changed

13:11:37 badon: They get mentioned here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_sons_of_the_dragon

13:11:39 assbot: Nine sons of the dragon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdkNQA )

13:11:48 nubbins`: you're now moving slower through time because of your movement throught space

13:11:59 mircea_popescu: Naphex intrinsic to what ?

13:12:10 mircea_popescu: nubbins` what is this, relativity 101 ?

13:12:15 badon: nubbins`: That's time dilation.

13:12:16 nubbins`: indeed.

13:12:18 *: nubbins` nods

13:12:38 nubbins`: nothing mind-blowing here

13:12:44 nubbins`: just thought it was a nice analogy :P

13:13:03 Naphex: mircea_popescu: well you can't use fiat

13:13:16 mircea_popescu: i can't ?

13:14:55 Naphex: what i'm trying to ask

13:15:32 Naphex: does the current form of the Bitcoin Blockchain have intrinsic value (without referencing its market value)

13:15:33 mircea_popescu: i can't believe half the fucking log is keyboards. you people are nuts you know that ?

13:15:46 badon: Naphex: no.

13:16:04 mircea_popescu: Naphex yes, but intrinsic to what. see, when i say "kim kardashian has intrinsic value" i mean specifically, the hole(s) in her ass.

13:16:04 Naphex: what about all that work and time wasted on building it up?

13:16:06 Naphex: and deriving it

13:16:09 mircea_popescu: when you say "intrinsic" what do you mean ?

13:16:20 badon: Man, the Canadian coins are not very impressive compared to the Chinese coins.

13:16:33 badon: They used to make some nice stuff.

13:16:38 Naphex: mircea_popescu: fundamental value

13:16:43 badon: I collected them for a while.

13:16:51 mircea_popescu: uhm.

13:17:17 nubbins`: hole(s)

13:17:19 nubbins`: !up badon

13:17:28 mircea_popescu: do you mean "value that would be present in any unverse which allows for bitcoin" ? or do you mean "value which would be present in this X thing whether it be bitcoin or not"

13:17:34 nubbins`: badon like i said, maybe a couple coins a year.

13:17:45 nubbins`: their tree canopy ones are okay

13:18:04 jurov: http://explo.yt/post/2014/12/02/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-November-2014-Statement

13:18:05 assbot: The Bitcoin Foundation November 2014 Statement - serialized delusions ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMLLhT )

13:18:17 nubbins`: http://www.mint.ca/store/coins/1-oz.-fine-silver-coin-canadian-maple-canopy-spring-mintage-7500-2014-prod1920053

13:18:21 assbot: 1 oz. Fine Silver Coin - Canadian Maple Canopy (Spring) - Mintage: 7,500 (2014) ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMLQ5s )

13:18:24 nubbins`: http://www.mint.ca/store/coins/1-oz.-fine-silver-coin-maple-canopy-autumn-allure-mintage-7500-2014-prod2090013#.VH28GWTF8Yc

13:18:26 assbot: 1 oz. Fine Silver Coin - Maple Canopy: Autumn Allure - Mintage: 7,500 (2014) ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMLPy9 )

13:18:46 nubbins`: tbh the cmyk-printed coins don't look great up-close

13:18:54 nubbins`: they have some coins that are actually painted w/ enamel that are nicer

13:19:37 badon: nubbins`: They copied the Chinese enamel.

13:20:25 badon: nubbins`: China mastered enamel in ancient times - and I mean truly MASTERED it. I saw some enamel work that I mistook for being modern, but it was ancient.

13:20:36 nubbins`: http://www.mint.ca/store/coin/1-oz.-fine-silver-coin-polar-bear-mintage-8500-2014-prod1730022

13:20:37 assbot: 1 oz. Fine Silver Coin - Polar Bear - Mintage: 8,500 (2014) ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMMpvS )

13:20:42 badon: The first really nice enamel coins in modern China were in 2008, if I remember correctly.

13:21:02 nubbins`: i've been trying to find these coins forever, to no avail: http://www.mint.ca/store/coin/silver-crystal-zodiac-collection-2013-prod1840076#.VH28eGTF8Yc

13:21:04 assbot: Silver Crystal Zodiac Collection (2013) ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMMz6o )

13:21:32 badon: The started out by "colorizing" with really crapping printing techniques. People thought they were ugly, and didn't buy them. Today, the ugly ones are more valuable than the pretty ones because they're rarer.

13:21:34 nubbins`: specifically, looking for a Gemini

13:22:10 nubbins`: yeah the canadian mint did a series of Great Lakes coins where the lake bed was carved out of the coin, and filled with translucent blue enamel

13:22:34 nubbins`: neat idea, not particularly nice coins

13:22:34 nubbins`: http://www.mint.ca/store/coin/1-oz.-fine-silver-coins-the-great-lakes-5coin-subscription-mintage-10000-2014-prod1730037

13:22:36 assbot: 1 oz. Fine Silver Coins - The Great Lakes 5-Coin Subscription - Mintage: 10,000 (2014) ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMN7JA )

13:23:23 badon: nubbins`: Collectors need something interesting. Mass-production commercialization isn't very interesting.

13:23:31 badon: Hopefully there will be some cool errors or something.

13:23:33 nubbins`: this is why i collect casascius coins ;D

13:24:05 nubbins`: and other bitcoin ephemera

13:24:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25228 @ 0.00035303 = 8.9062 BTC [-]

13:25:00 badon: nubbins`: See here https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=5411.msg35104#msg35104 and here https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=5411.msg35112#msg35112 for impressive enamel work.

13:25:03 assbot: MCC LIST #182 - The pagoda lesson, goldfish, tactics, slowdown end, CC funding ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdnZfe )

13:25:06 assbot: MCC LIST #182 - The pagoda lesson, goldfish, tactics, slowdown end, CC funding ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdnYrG )

13:25:28 badon: IN that case, it's on a box, not a coin, but it's ridiculously intricate. Something like that in the West would cost a thousand bucks just for the box.

13:25:41 badon: They probably sold it for 50 cents in the 1980's, haha.

13:25:54 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1100 @ 0.0011987 = 1.3186 BTC [-]

13:28:05 mircea_popescu: i imagine the time to stock up on chinese memorabilia was right before the great leap forward.

13:28:10 mircea_popescu: kinda late to the party today

13:29:38 nubbins`: that's some nice enamel

13:29:51 nubbins`: i saw some sick enamelling when i was in korea too

13:29:58 nubbins`: a lot of it on pottery

13:30:42 badon: nubbins`: Oh yeah, the pottery enamel is famous.

13:31:13 nubbins`: there was this one town i visited, it's all anyone did

13:31:16 badon: Korea was part of China in ancient times, due to proximity, so it makes sense they would have some impressive enameling technology.

13:31:20 nubbins`: went there for a big pottery festival

13:31:24 nubbins`: spent so much goddamn money

13:31:27 nubbins`: like 2 months wages

13:33:16 nubbins`: https://www.google.ca/search?q=icheon+ceramics&tbm=isch

13:33:17 assbot: icheon ceramics - Google Search ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMQn7G )

13:37:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hardphork! << i never applied that, no sympthoms. so no, not a fork at all.

13:37:50 badon: haha

13:37:57 badon: I love that stuff.

13:38:01 nubbins`: "you guys forked up big-time"

13:38:18 nubbins`: badon korean newspapers still use chinese characters for headlines etc

13:38:29 nubbins`: there's a couple hundred common ones that most koreans know

13:38:56 badon: nubbins`: Check this out, this is typical of a relatively unknown coin that can pop in value really quickly: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=2&pub=5574935034&toolid=10001&campid=5336732290&customid=&icep_item=201226509197&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg

13:38:59 assbot: 60th Anniversary 1985 Chinese Imperial Palace Museum Coin with Souvenir Card | eBay ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdr5zU )

13:39:21 badon: nubbins`: The silver version I sold for $1200. A few months later the specimen was back on the market, and it sold for $4'000!

13:39:38 badon: I thought it was a museum gift shop thing.

13:39:58 badon: I was wrong. The "museum" is actually the Emperor's palace, also known as "the forbidden city".

13:40:09 mircea_popescu: "Organised crime groups continue to make use of darknets to harbour trading in illicit commodities, including child exploitation material, illicit drugs and firearms, stolen credit card and identity data, and hacking techniques." << check it out, hacking techniques the illicit item ?

13:40:10 badon: A lot of people got that wrong too.

13:40:30 nubbins`: kowloon!

13:41:03 badon: It has a mintage of 200 for the silver version, and only around 10 specimens are known to have survived so far. More will probably show up as time goes by, but $4000 price tag did not bring any new ones to the market, which is strong evidence most of them are either melted or permanently in someone's collection.

13:41:51 nubbins`: occasionally you'll find people afraid to offer a rare coin for sale

13:41:55 badon: nubbins`: Wow, those Icheon ceramics are amazing. Check this one out: http://www.jstudentboard.com/reporter/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/JSR_Nov23_01_CERAMICS1.jpg

13:41:55 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

13:41:57 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMT7C6 )

13:41:58 nubbins`: for fear it won't fetch going rates

13:42:00 badon: It's cameo.

13:42:16 badon: nubbins`: Right, especially in auctions.

13:42:19 nubbins`: yup. the town's full of that stuff.

13:42:26 nubbins`: you should see the mantles in my mother's house

13:42:36 nubbins`: weighted down with shit like that

13:43:20 badon: nubbins`: In 500 years - heck, in 80 years, most of that stuff will be broken. The surviving specimens will be the proverbial "Ming vaaaaz".

13:44:12 badon: I compared what Europe was producing in the 11th century with what China was producing, and it's pathetic. You have to wonder if Europeans collectively decided to be retarded for a thousand years.

13:44:19 badon: They don't call it a dark age for nothing.

13:44:57 badon: Check out the Byzantine enamel, versus the Chinese enamel photos --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloisonn%C3%A9

13:44:59 assbot: Cloisonné - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1zdszdp )

13:45:03 mircea_popescu: "europeans" didn't exist in 1000.

13:45:27 badon: All the cool enameled art in that article is from the East. All the Crayola kiddie enamel is from Europe, haha.

13:47:59 nubbins`: i saw some cool byzantine shit in germany

13:48:28 nubbins`: !up badon

13:48:40 nubbins`: ;;help eregister

13:48:40 gribble: (eregister <nick> <keyid>) -- Register your GPG identity, associating GPG key <keyid> with <nick>. <keyid> is a 16 digit key id, with or without the '0x' prefix. We look on servers listed in 'plugins.GPG.keyservers' config. You will be given a link to a page which contains a one time password encrypted with your key. Decrypt, and use the 'everify' command with it. Your passphrase will (1 more message)

13:48:42 nubbins`: ^

13:48:54 nubbins`: ;;more

13:48:54 gribble: expire in 10 minutes.

13:49:08 badon: ;;help register

13:49:08 gribble: (register <nick> <keyid>) -- Register your GPG identity, associating GPG key <keyid> with <nick>. <keyid> is a 16 digit key id, with or without the '0x' prefix. We look on servers listed in 'plugins.GPG.keyservers' config. You will be given a random passphrase to clearsign with your key, and submit to the bot with the 'verify' command. Your passphrase will expire in 10 minutes.

13:49:16 nubbins`: eventually someone's not going to notice you were -v'd :P

13:49:27 badon: Yeah.

13:51:47 mircea_popescu: http://jim.com/cocaine.jpg << america always had ritalin.

13:51:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMVzsi )

13:54:58 nubbins`: shut your kid up now! only $3.50ea!

13:56:15 badon: ;;help register

13:56:16 gribble: (register <nick> <keyid>) -- Register your GPG identity, associating GPG key <keyid> with <nick>. <keyid> is a 16 digit key id, with or without the '0x' prefix. We look on servers listed in 'plugins.GPG.keyservers' config. You will be given a random passphrase to clearsign with your key, and submit to the bot with the 'verify' command. Your passphrase will expire in 10 minutes.

13:56:26 badon: Ah, there we go. I had gribble on ignore.

13:56:30 badon: That's why I wasn't getting anything.

13:56:45 badon: ;;help eregister

13:56:46 gribble: (eregister <nick> <keyid>) -- Register your GPG identity, associating GPG key <keyid> with <nick>. <keyid> is a 16 digit key id, with or without the '0x' prefix. We look on servers listed in 'plugins.GPG.keyservers' config. You will be given a link to a page which contains a one time password encrypted with your key. Decrypt, and use the 'everify' command with it. Your passphrase will (1 more message)

13:57:31 mircea_popescu: you can do this in pm with it too.

13:57:40 badon: Yes, I'm doing that now.

14:11:05 mircea_popescu: http://jim.com/schools.htm

14:11:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1pN0ute )

14:11:09 mircea_popescu: this is actually not bad.

14:11:26 mircea_popescu: " The public schools are intended to create complacent "good citizens"?not independent thinkers?because political leaders do not like boat-rockers who question things too closely. They prefer citizens who pay their taxes on time and leave them alone to chart the course of the nation. The growth in government power since the advent of public schools is hard to ignore."

14:11:32 mircea_popescu: the two do kind-of match.

14:22:49 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 242 @ 0.0065 = 1.573 BTC [-] {2}

14:23:34 []bot: Bet placed: 6 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1058/ Odds: 81(Y):19(N) by coin, 74(Y):26(N) by weight. Total bet: 11.42439125 BTC. Current weight: 60,795.

14:23:36 []bot: Bet placed: 4 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/871/ Odds: 51(Y):49(N) by coin, 34(Y):66(N) by weight. Total bet: 11.43892981 BTC. Current weight: 7,222.

14:37:44 mircea_popescu: adlai: uhoh, site affinity for reddit.com is 51.2x! << i see slashdot.org 151.7x wired.com 83.3x zerohedge.com 81.3x dailydot.com 52.7x boingboing.net 51.7x

14:37:56 mircea_popescu: don't tell me it's giving different numbers to diff people.

14:38:23 adlai: something something river twice?

14:39:11 mircea_popescu: huh ?

14:39:17 mircea_popescu: oh

14:39:39 mircea_popescu: damn that's a fast river then.

14:39:44 *: adlai sees, right now, http://i.imgur.com/UyrDh8M.png

14:39:45 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1pN99fp )

14:40:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39372 @ 0.00033991 = 13.3829 BTC [-]

14:40:22 mircea_popescu: o look it has a "more" page. nm me.

14:42:00 mircea_popescu: 86 wikipedia.org

14:42:38 mircea_popescu: 106 somethingawful.com kinda interesting this, i wonder how entirely baseless it actually is.

14:52:09 jurov: ;;bc,tslb

14:52:09 gribble: Error: "bc,tslb" is not a valid command.

14:52:21 jurov: ;;tslb

14:52:23 gribble: Time since last block: 7 minutes and 10 seconds

14:52:26 mircea_popescu: !up Xuthus

14:53:52 adlai: note that reddit binding affinity has risen 0.4x during this riverflow. assuming linear growth at the current rate, qntra will devolve into reddit on or around noon on march 18th 2015. RemindMe! sell S.QNTR

15:00:47 []bot: Bet placed: 1.23372958 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1058/ Odds: 83(Y):17(N) by coin, 76(Y):24(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.65812083 BTC. Current weight: 60,770.

15:01:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is the deal breaker for me. i actually run the monitors at about 50% gamma. << i did get it down to 30% or so. would've liked even less - while retaining contrast. simply to avoid... baking.

15:03:07 asciilifeform: there's no fucking usable definition of intelligence << there are, however, accurate and usable definitions of... stupidity.

15:04:13 asciilifeform: sorta how culinary science is plagued by disputes of taste but toxicology is a field.

15:05:04 asciilifeform: de gustibus non est disputandum but poison is poison.

15:06:26 asciilifeform: mactardism is a very visual field. it doesn't account much for function << complicated. apple corp. is still running on fumes from a gigantic tank of back-when-everything-else-was-a-joke in a number of palpable ways. see also http://www.loper-os.org/?p=132

15:06:28 assbot: Loper OS » Non-Apple’s Mistake ... ( http://bit.ly/1pNhFLo )

15:07:12 mircea_popescu: i can see that

15:07:22 mircea_popescu: problem is any set of stupidity definitions are incomplete

15:07:50 mircea_popescu: and "culinary science" is the sort of nonsense you'd expect ou tof english speakers. otherwise l'arte culinaire isdoing fine

15:08:00 asciilifeform: incomplete - sure. it's more a set of engineering formulae than a total philosophy.

15:08:05 mircea_popescu: ya

15:08:24 asciilifeform: engineer may not know or give a fuck how magnetism is made of spins, but will use magnet all the same to good effect

15:08:38 mircea_popescu: nonmagnet

15:08:51 asciilifeform: aha.

15:08:56 adlai: ... and why is there no usable definition for intelligence?

15:09:42 adlai: "ability of a brain/computer to model, predict, etc external processes"

15:09:51 adlai: it's far from perfect, but it's a start

15:10:02 mircea_popescu: it's not.

15:10:04 mats_cd03: lol

15:10:06 asciilifeform: this is a subject that i have a little personal connection with. at one point, i spent almost two years of spare time working on what turned out to be 'fried ice'

15:10:26 asciilifeform: that is, a mechanized intelligence test that the victim 'can't train for'

15:11:01 asciilifeform: 'can't train' as in, you could, idea being, take it every morning, and get a useful result re: your mental state on that day

15:11:07 asciilifeform: like strength test

15:12:00 asciilifeform: for this to work, the problems on the test were to have been mechanically-generated but sufficiently varied that you will never see the same 'kind' particularly often

15:12:25 asciilifeform: this was a fool's errand, but in the process, i ended up lifting the lid on an entire 'secret' field of psychometry

15:12:40 asciilifeform: turned out, it was still alive, just carefully non-public

15:12:50 mircea_popescu: lmao this is the most idiotic thing i ever heard

15:12:52 asciilifeform: they won't cross-publish to 'big, mainstream' journals. have own ghetto.

15:12:59 mircea_popescu: wait, an unlearnable test of intelligence ?

15:13:30 asciilifeform: naturally the very concept of sitting down and solving a picture puzzle is learnable. this was clear to me. but i wanted a kind of 'carnot engine limit' of unlearnability.

15:13:31 mircea_popescu: i can see the newspaper titles

15:13:39 mircea_popescu: "ten youths from downtown accidentally construct the godmachine

15:13:55 asciilifeform: wanted to see where the hard limit is.

15:14:12 mircea_popescu: anything useful ? other than socially i mezn

15:14:24 asciilifeform: was in the process of revealing what was useful.

15:14:38 *: mircea_popescu listens

15:14:48 asciilifeform: found that intelligence test design ('psychometry') was still a going concern

15:15:12 asciilifeform: with elaborate gentlemen's agreements among the participants to keep the field out of the line of fire

15:15:17 asciilifeform: avoid getting 'watsoned'

15:15:39 asciilifeform: incidentally, watson's 'public goatfuck' statement is not the least bit controversial among the actual psychometrics folks.

15:15:47 adlai: (how do "they" define intelligence?)

15:15:51 mircea_popescu: i don't see it's controversial at all.

15:16:30 adlai: or rather, what attributes do they usually measure?

15:16:39 asciilifeform: they don't define it, normally. but they deduced a statistical item, called 'G', which is the overall correlation between the various tests in use

15:16:49 asciilifeform: as well as other factors (reaction time, even)

15:17:23 *: mircea_popescu briefly participated in some "transdisciplinary" efforts many moons ago

15:17:37 asciilifeform: see eysenck's works for intro to subject.

15:17:38 asciilifeform: http://www.intelltheory.com/eysenck.shtml

15:17:39 assbot: Human Intelligence: H. J. Eysenck ... ( http://bit.ly/1pNlZu2 )

15:17:39 mircea_popescu: but honestly while there are intelligent people trying, i think it's a snipe hunt.

15:17:44 mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "intelligence".

15:17:55 asciilifeform: no such thing as magnetism.

15:17:55 mircea_popescu: not anymore than there's "beauty"

15:18:07 mircea_popescu: perhaps, but magnetism is at least measurable.

15:18:11 adlai: there may not be any such thing as "beauty", but "sexual selection" exists

15:18:11 mircea_popescu: or i should say

15:18:19 asciilifeform: this is sorta like saying 'there is no such thing as strength of materials'

15:18:22 asciilifeform: tell that to an architect

15:18:25 adlai: ie, at any one point in time, for a given population, you can measure "beauty"

15:18:28 mircea_popescu: perhaps, but the label of magnetism is at least applied on some sort of interaction that yields a force.

15:18:49 mircea_popescu: adlai that sexual selection exists is very poor grounding to claim beauty.

15:19:15 mircea_popescu: and in particular attempts to define intelligence in terms of statistical fitting and survivability yield monsters

15:19:26 mircea_popescu: (ie, stuff nobody would intuitively accept as intelligence)

15:19:42 asciilifeform: the serious folks carefully avoid chasing definitions.

15:19:46 adlai: that's because they're using intuition instead of intelligence

15:20:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right, because a field without a definition can exist.

15:20:22 mircea_popescu: anyway. i think it's pseudoscience, the whole lot of it.

15:20:42 adlai: lol right there in Eysenck's bio... "Definition of Intelligence"

15:20:48 asciilifeform: about as much as physiology is a pseudoscience

15:20:58 asciilifeform: yes, meat - varies.

15:21:11 mircea_popescu: belongs as a subset obscure philosophy, right there with aesthetics.

15:21:11 asciilifeform: but there are underlying principles.

15:21:42 mircea_popescu: yes. there are. you know what they are ?

15:21:42 asciilifeform: and the immediate engineering applications of being able to distinguish folks into rough equivalence classes of stupidity by purely mechanical means - are there.

15:21:45 mircea_popescu: whatever you want them to be.

15:22:07 mircea_popescu: a pseudoscience isn't that endeavour lcking principles,

15:22:11 adlai: chasing "intelligence" might be pseudoscience but you can get relevant results by studying well-defined attributes (eg reaction time)

15:22:14 mircea_popescu: it's that endeavour where anything can be a principle.

15:22:46 mircea_popescu: adlai ah, this isn't an argument against such stuff. sure, reaction time is even a good proxy for things you may care about,

15:22:47 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-10-2014#870269

15:22:47 assbot: Logged on 13-10-2014 03:24:29; asciilifeform: Adlai: if i recall, hypothesis involves impedance matching - same reason folks with damaged myelin sheaths lose theirs.

15:22:53 asciilifeform: there's your principle.

15:23:09 mircea_popescu: wait, wut ?

15:23:09 asciilifeform: that's my personal hypothesis, incidentally. handily predictive of the reaction time correlation.

15:23:24 mircea_popescu: this is a principle of what ? intelligence ?

15:23:28 asciilifeform: central nervous system impedance matching.

15:23:30 asciilifeform: yes.

15:23:55 mircea_popescu: so the best way to be intelligent is doing speedballs ?

15:24:04 asciilifeform: probably measurable via purely physical means if we knew what to look for (ask a network engineer how he measures echos on lines)

15:24:22 asciilifeform: how do you impedence-match neurons with a pill ?

15:24:37 mircea_popescu: well they all fire lol

15:24:46 asciilifeform: that's simply 'upping the clock'

15:24:52 mircea_popescu: right.

15:25:00 asciilifeform: the madness - echos, 'crosstalk'

15:25:24 mircea_popescu: it's beautifully simple,

15:25:34 mircea_popescu: but i don't see anything in it past that.

15:25:43 asciilifeform: sorta 'inverse alzheimer's'

15:26:21 asciilifeform: an axon is a... transmission line.

15:26:27 asciilifeform: quite like coaxial cable.

15:26:32 mircea_popescu: sure.

15:26:40 mircea_popescu: that part's uncontroversial.

15:26:43 asciilifeform: aha

15:27:14 adlai: slight tangent (from reading about impedance) - why on earth are complex numbers introduced as a+bi when (magnitude,phase) is an infinitely more INTELLIGENT way of understanding them?

15:27:22 mircea_popescu: problem is i can build a machine with zero crosstalk and i won't have built an ai.

15:27:38 mircea_popescu: adlai because they're not introduced by intelligent people./

15:27:38 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall my brick lisp machine?

15:27:46 mircea_popescu: yes.

15:27:55 asciilifeform: (for n00bs: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405 )

15:27:57 assbot: Loper OS » The Simplest Lisp Machine ... ( http://bit.ly/1FJMqD2 )

15:28:15 asciilifeform: essentially: ingredients necessary but not sufficient.

15:28:26 adlai: aha, bricklisp proves that !stupid ≠ intelligent

15:28:42 mircea_popescu: so then it's not a definition.

15:29:14 asciilifeform: we are roughly in the position of the ancients who tried to explain why certain objects are flammable while others - not

15:29:17 mircea_popescu: as i said, all sorts of heuristics can be useful. i tend to not pursue relations with the intellectually slow, which i often judge in seconds on simple cues such as eye movement.

15:29:18 adlai: bricklisp simply doesn't detract from the intelligence of whoever is using it, like "rubber duck debugging"

15:29:23 mircea_popescu: nevertheless, i don't call this a science.

15:29:28 mircea_popescu: i call it being an asshole.

15:29:46 asciilifeform: anyway - who wants to turn it into a science, i just threw in a freebie - physically testable hypothesis.

15:30:00 adlai: eye movement?

15:30:03 asciilifeform: no

15:30:28 asciilifeform: adlai: see thread from ten minutes or so ago.

15:30:33 *: adlai is wondering how mircea_popescu judges intelligence based on eye movement... it seems very dependant upon the setting

15:31:12 mircea_popescu: same way carnies pick out their marks, it's nothing novel.

15:31:13 adlai: maybe a bit more than ten minutes

15:31:55 asciilifeform: we don't have a 'science of intelligence' any more than medicine has a 'science of health'

15:32:00 mircea_popescu: ^

15:32:02 asciilifeform: we do have some sense of disease. and of - stupidity.

15:32:15 mircea_popescu: moreover, trying to pursue a "science of health" is the hallmark of pseudoscientific cockery.

15:32:39 asciilifeform: but one can see how a medic may be tempted

15:32:52 asciilifeform: to come up with an 'average carcass' where no known dysfunction is present

15:33:01 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-10-2014#870297 < this seems intuitive to me, but I guess that backs up my intuition

15:33:01 assbot: Logged on 13-10-2014 03:29:22; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, just watch people respond to stimuli.

15:33:43 adlai: also http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-09-2014#821631

15:33:43 assbot: Logged on 07-09-2014 17:02:37; mircea_popescu: something like that. so one night while in here, i see movement in the corner of my eye

15:33:59 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-10-2014#870303 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-10-2014#870307

15:33:59 assbot: Logged on 13-10-2014 03:30:52; asciilifeform: how come we never hear anyone arguing that there is no such thing as 'strength'

15:33:59 assbot: Logged on 13-10-2014 03:31:14; asciilifeform: and that a circus weight-lifter isn't the least bit strong, because perhaps my arse muscle is stronger yet than his biceps

15:34:13 asciilifeform: thank you assbot, saving my leaf springs the wear!

15:34:22 mircea_popescu: :)

15:36:27 nubbins`: !up badon

15:37:44 TomServo: Hey nubbins`, didja see my PM?

15:38:16 nubbins`: ah yes, ty, i may have it covered

15:38:38 nubbins`: should know for sure in the next couple days

15:38:54 TomServo: Cool.

15:43:37 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "X.EUR contract monthly renewal canceled in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/867/ Odds: 29(Y):71(N) by coin, 71(Y):29(N) by weight. Total bet: 1.51 BTC. Current weight: 11,329.

15:53:15 TomServo: ;;bc,stats

15:53:17 gribble: Current Blocks: 332593 | Current Difficulty: 4.03000303278914E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 332639 | Next Difficulty In: 46 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 7 hours, 49 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 40034321698.2 | Estimated Percent Change: -0.65933

16:07:58 kakobrekla: >Global Advisors, a firm based in Jersey that manages the first regulated bitcoin fund, has been served notice by its bank, HSBC.

16:07:59 kakobrekla: lolk

16:21:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91700 @ 0.0003592 = 32.9386 BTC [+] {3}

16:46:09 jurov: what's with the submissions to qntra containing lengthy documents verbatim?

16:46:21 jurov: they do count into s.qntr shares?

16:55:19 punkman: http://thebookseller.com/news/e-book-prices-may-rise-vat-law-kicks

16:55:20 assbot: E-book prices may rise as VAT law kicks in | The Bookseller ... ( http://bit.ly/1tIxz5a )

17:12:56 adlai: !s mpex socket

17:12:57 assbot: 18 results for 'mpex socket' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=mpex+socket

17:13:49 adlai: aha, shouldn't http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-07-2014#772915 be mentioned in the FAQ?

17:13:49 assbot: Logged on 27-07-2014 19:56:00; mircea_popescu: kuzetsa ah i think you gotta pay kako for access to that ?

17:15:10 artifexd: Are there any plans for new profit centers in MPIF?

17:15:14 adlai: https://twitter.com/mpex1 also seems a little dead. tsk tsk, need to clean up the dead links!

17:15:17 assbot: MPEx (@MPEx1) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1tIBTBr )

17:15:27 adlai: artifexd: are you planning to offer any?

17:16:10 artifexd: If I had any to offer, yes. Alas, no.

17:17:03 kakobrekla: adlai http://q.b-a.link/?data=trades&since=1411033765 or http://q.b-a.link/?data=trades&since_id=12345

17:17:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1tICjHZ )

17:17:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1tICmmV )

17:17:05 artifexd: I'm just trying to make a decision to sell what I have, buy more, or wait some more.

17:18:17 artifexd: And there hasn't been much talk of MPIF lately. I'm in an information vacuum, so to speak.

17:18:49 adlai: the impression I get from lurking around here is that there aren't concrete plans for another profit center, but if one arose, it would be welcomed

17:20:41 mike_c: jurov, you still market making mpif? it seems the bids are below bounds (which I thought was +- 5%).

17:20:52 jurov: ohmy

17:21:04 jurov: and nobody's selling?

17:21:22 mike_c: well, selling would be bad right now.

17:21:31 mike_c: you'd be selling a bitcoin for 0.9 btc.

17:22:02 adlai: kakobrekla: thx

17:22:13 kakobrekla: yw

17:22:25 jurov: okay it's in queue right after vulpes' patches

17:24:03 adlai: would've been nicer with &symbol= and push notifications and a unicorn pony but i'll settle for this :)

17:24:06 jurov: !mpif

17:24:07 assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021745 B (Total: 475.53 B). Delta: 0.52 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000195 BTC [-]

17:24:37 kakobrekla: yeah a 0mq would be nice

17:24:41 adlai: kakobrekla: what's type:11 ?

17:24:47 jurov: oh and i just came around davout's proposal, gonna make some noise around it

17:24:49 nubbins`: jurov iirc (and i could be wrong), qntra pays the way dickens' publisher paid

17:25:13 adlai: nubbins`: yes, but it could ignore text within blockquote tags

17:25:24 nubbins`: should, even.

17:25:39 nubbins`: otherwise your article quality's going down the shitter

17:26:11 kakobrekla: adlai http://dpaste.com/11MMEJA.txt

17:26:12 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1yIkSxp )

17:26:48 adlai: thx²

17:35:38 jurov: davout: see comment on yer blog

17:35:53 xanthyos: coinbase makes it too easy! i thought they'd at least slow me down with a 2 factor phone auth

17:36:10 xanthyos: 0.25925176 BTC will arrive in your My Wallet account on Monday Dec 8, 2014.

17:36:38 davout: jurov: oy

17:37:21 davout: what exactly are you disagreeing with?

17:38:18 jurov: that X.EUR is to disappear and reappear at any indeterminate time

17:38:38 davout: who said anything about indeterminate ?

17:38:39 jurov: and there's nothing in STATJSON output to indicate it

17:39:10 jurov: you don't like the 15th 12:00 GMT, you want to change it, no?

17:39:26 jurov: if it changes to other fixed time, i'm okay with it

17:40:02 davout: it's not that i dislike it, it's just that i point out that it creates a hard deadline for everyone

17:40:41 jurov: and why's that a problem? french ppl u no have hard deadlines?

17:40:52 davout: which creates a trading gap unless everyone is perfectly synchronized

17:41:07 jurov: and what exactly was your proposal?

17:41:12 xanthyos: life's more exciting with a coinbase progress bar in one of my browser tabs

17:41:15 xanthyos: !up bagels7

17:41:33 davout: xanthyos getting it !up, that's good news

17:41:47 davout: jurov: either de-automate the first step

17:41:53 xanthyos: davout: i'm not supposed to talk about that anymore. started to annoy ppl

17:41:56 davout: or do continuous trading

17:42:21 jurov: you see - i'm reeling about the first one

17:43:08 jurov: continuos trading without balaces mysteriously on/off would the best solution in my view

17:43:09 davout: what you're reeling about is coinbr's inability to cleanly detect the gap, whether that's for mpex or coinbr to solve is another question

17:43:52 jurov: i wrote clearly how i intend to solve it. x.eur would just not trade in interval when such behavior is expected.

17:43:55 davout: yes, continuous trading seems so much simpler, not sure if there's a blocker i'm missing tho

17:44:23 davout: kinda non optimal

17:48:18 jurov: well.. it's up to mircea. i doubt he ever does anything about this stateless, eventually-consistent wankfest of his.

17:49:08 jurov: coinbr has state machine to compensate for it complicated enough already

17:49:14 davout: well, time will tell

17:49:22 davout: yea i hear you

17:49:59 davout: bbl

17:54:49 jurov: mircea_popescu: EVERY BALANCE CHANGE ON MPEX SHOULD HAVE A REASON NAMED IN JSON/JSONSTAT OUTPUT. FULL STOP.

17:55:01 jurov: okay, now i have this off my mind

18:01:14 nubbins`: you're just using it wrong ;p

18:03:49 asciilifeform: e-book prices << price of w4r3z still == 0. nyooz at 11!11!

18:07:01 nubbins`: nyooz @ ~~

18:20:29 jurov: <adlai> slight tangent (from reading about impedance) - why on earth are complex numbers introduced as a+bi << easy addition and multiplication?

18:24:11 jurov: http://bitbet.us/bet/867/ haha another reason for x.eur to move to continuous trading, just to screw with this

18:24:12 assbot: BitBet - X.EUR contract monthly renewal canceled in 2014 :: 0.44 B (29%) on Yes, 1.07 B (71%) on No | closing in 3 weeks 3 days | weight: 11`277 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/11Plswz )

18:24:28 xanthyos: you can think of all numbers as having +bi but if b = 0 it doesn't matter

18:26:02 jurov: yes, and?

18:27:20 jurov: 1.5*e(i*pi) + e(1.5*i*pi) = ?

18:27:38 jurov: hafta convert them to a+bi anyway

18:30:12 jurov: <nubbins`> you're just using it wrong ;p << lol what?

18:30:32 xanthyos: waht's up with the ddos bot?

18:30:45 xanthyos: is that why my pms sometimes look invisible or delayed

18:32:13 kakobrekla: your bnc is getting ddosed prolly

18:32:30 jurov: pms should have same latency as all irc, no?

18:32:37 kakobrekla: yea

18:33:54 mike_c: qntra authors: coinbase is an exchange now. http://blog.coinbase.com/post/104112477642/usd-wallets-on-coinbase

18:33:56 assbot: The Coinbase Blog — USD Wallets on Coinbase ... ( http://bit.ly/11Pnwor )

18:34:36 nubbins`: i kid

18:36:25 mike_c: this is too funny. scamfunding sites now offer insurance! http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/01/indiegogo-is-testing-optional-insurance-fees-for-crowdfunded-products/

18:36:27 assbot: Indiegogo Is Testing Optional Insurance Fees For Crowdfunded Products | TechCrunch ... ( http://bit.ly/11PolNQ )

18:38:25 xanthyos: it's a shell so i have no idea if it's being ddosed

18:39:31 kakobrekla: adlai you want sql dump to bootstrap?

18:40:54 jurov: xanthyos if ssh doen't have noticeable lag it should not be ddos

18:41:19 kakobrekla: or you know, just get a free cloak

18:41:30 nubbins`: maybe i was being ddosed yesterday when my netflix stream quality was slightly reduced

18:41:35 nubbins`: XD

18:42:00 xanthyos: if i connected from my home ip i'd cloak. i don't notice a lag at all from the ssh session

18:42:08 kakobrekla: dear ddoser, please add more bots as it is not clear if you are still ddosing or not

18:42:14 xanthyos: but the pm with gribble took a while to come back

18:42:21 xanthyos: maybe gribble's being ddosed

18:42:31 xanthyos: heh

18:43:10 xanthyos: better to know it's a ddos to get angry about than to have uncertainty and be unable to diagnose the problem

18:43:26 kakobrekla: get a cloak and you will know its not

18:43:58 jurov: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/technology/once-celebrated-in-russia-programmer-pavel-durov-chooses-exile.html?ref=technology&_r=1 << i'd like to see talk between him and asciilifeform :)

18:44:01 assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/11PqDN6 )

18:44:48 xanthyos: at a time i thought all nickserv-idented nicks were cloaked

18:44:52 xanthyos: but maybe that was a different network

18:48:33 xanthyos: cloaked or not, silenceisdefeat.com probably gets hit all the time, but it's free and reliable enough

18:55:56 asciilifeform: durov << devoted cocksucker of u.s. state dept., disgraceful shill.

19:00:59 kakobrekla: lol what he do?

19:01:21 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: read the linked piece, see if you can decide for yourself

19:02:42 jurov: he dared to tweet “67 years ago Stalin defended from Hitler his right to suppress Soviet people.”

19:02:59 jurov: us state dept aparently pays handsomely for such tweets

19:04:14 jurov: looks like it can be opened from news.ycombinator.com without the paywall

19:33:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98350 @ 0.00036048 = 35.4532 BTC [+] {3}

19:34:41 ben_vulpes: dang did you guys really crap out over 1000 lines while i was sleeping?

20:00:29 jurov: http://ml.therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/patches.html << ben_vulpes there, another bug fixed

20:03:58 jurov: !mpif

20:03:59 assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021745 B (Total: 475.53 B). Delta: 0.52 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000195 BTC [-]

20:04:25 jurov: ;;calc 0.00021745*1.01

20:04:27 gribble: 0.0002196245

20:05:32 jurov: mike_c it's actually 1% and i'm outside that

20:05:55 mike_c: but what about the low side?

20:06:13 mike_c: or am i confused and you don't offer liquidity for sellers?

20:06:50 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: i'd pay fiddy bucks for one, and that's generous. << Nobel prize is gold so you can sell it at one of those cash for gold store fronts in the ghetto

20:07:09 mike_c: oh, nevermind. those are minimums. you can't be closer than that, but have no responsibility to be particularly close?

20:07:23 BingoBoingo: ;;ident

20:07:24 gribble: Nick 'BingoBoingo', with hostmask 'BingoBoingo!~BingoBoin@unaffiliated/bingoboingo', is identified as user 'BingoBoingo', with GPG key id 309BB8D7F3251143, key fingerprint ADD7A9A28F85E5EF1F51904F309BB8D7F3251143, and bitcoin address None

20:10:55 jurov: mike_c: no responsibility.. but looking on it, i prolly should actually buy some to prop it up

20:11:47 jurov: on another look... wtf?

20:12:49 jurov: nm i was looking on another mpsic

20:13:43 jurov: ;;calc 0.00021745/1.01

20:13:43 gribble: 0.000215297029703

20:26:24 mike_c: my estimate seems a bit high at the moment. i gotta do some digging into why. I would use the october statement as a closer NAV right now.

20:26:35 mike_c: ;;calc 0.00021638/1.01

20:26:35 gribble: 0.000214237623762

20:28:09 []bot: Bet placed: 3.37 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1058/ Odds: 87(Y):13(N) by coin, 81(Y):19(N) by weight. Total bet: 16.46240824 BTC. Current weight: 60,552.

20:34:09 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i'd just donate it to germany

20:34:44 mircea_popescu: <jurov> they do count into s.qntr shares? << nah

20:34:45 BingoBoingo: Well, they aren't getting "theirs" anyway so might as well for the charity of it.

20:36:09 mircea_popescu: <artifexd> Are there any plans for new profit centers in MPIF? << yes. got an idea ?

20:36:46 mircea_popescu: <adlai> https://twitter.com/mpex1 also seems a little dead. tsk tsk, need to clean up the dead links! <<< yeah i guess so.

20:36:49 assbot: MPEx (@MPEx1) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1wlVdvg )

20:37:51 mircea_popescu: adlai> nubbins`: yes, but it could ignore text within blockquote tags << it does actually.

20:39:44 mircea_popescu: jurov oh right, totally forgot about that angle.

20:40:28 mircea_popescu: <xanthyos> [...] your My Wallet account [...] << logic.

20:41:01 mircea_popescu: <jurov> you don't like the 15th 12:00 GMT, you want to change it, no? << nah he just wants a shorter break. than ONE WEEK. which he gets.

20:41:11 mircea_popescu: won't be shorter than a few hours conceivably.

20:41:33 jurov: we misunderstood each other at first

20:42:15 mircea_popescu: <davout> yes, continuous trading seems so much simpler, not sure if there's a blocker i'm missing tho << it's nonsense, what exactly is a future that has no future date ?

20:42:53 *: jurov waits till mircea arrives at the wankfest

20:44:10 mircea_popescu: mike_c> this is too funny. scamfunding sites now offer insurance! << so did usagi.

20:44:32 mircea_popescu: generally, idiots revel in offering an idiotarian version of mainstream concepts. like, the usg right ? ALSO OFFERS INSURANCE.

20:44:42 mircea_popescu: ello :)

20:45:59 mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> dear ddoser, please add more bots as it is not clear if you are still ddosing or not <<< yeah this srsly. i was half considering replacing the voice model with a ddos model, but srsly, you gotta provide better servcice for free if you wanna be part of infrastructure here!

20:46:52 mircea_popescu: <jurov> looks like it can be opened from news.ycombinator.com without the paywall << see ? CLEARLY propaganda piece.

20:47:02 BingoBoingo: Indictment: http://qntra.net/2014/12/changetip-raises-3-5-million-lead-by-pantera-capital/

20:47:02 assbot: ChangeTip Raises $3.5 Million Lead by Pantera Capital | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1vefwEe )

20:47:11 mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> dang did you guys really crap out over 1000 lines while i was sleeping? << we didn't crap them bish. now eat up!

20:47:54 ben_vulpes: WHAT IS THIS NONSENSE

20:48:18 []bot: Bet placed: 11 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/871/ Odds: 75(Y):25(N) by coin, 42(Y):58(N) by weight. Total bet: 22.43892981 BTC. Current weight: 7,089.

20:48:34 ben_vulpes: huh rly?

20:48:36 mircea_popescu: <mike_c> oh, nevermind. those are minimums. you can't be closer than that, but have no responsibility to be particularly close? << well not stated as obligations, but generally it's his job to get close.

20:48:38 ben_vulpes: at this low weight?

20:48:50 ben_vulpes: ;;diff

20:48:51 gribble: 4.03000303278914E10

20:48:54 ben_vulpes: ;;estimate

20:48:54 gribble: Next difficulty estimate | 40070721940.0 based on data since last change | 40835307545.6 based on data for last three days

20:49:22 mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats

20:49:24 gribble: Current Blocks: 332625 | Current Difficulty: 4.03000303278914E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 332639 | Next Difficulty In: 14 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 hours, 19 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 40070721940.0 | Estimated Percent Change: -0.569

20:49:28 mircea_popescu: ^

20:49:38 mats_cd03: ;;ticker

20:49:39 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 380.57, Best ask: 380.7, Bid-ask spread: 0.13000, Last trade: 380.68, 24 hour volume: 6448.20538594, 24 hour low: 375.23, 24 hour high: 382.86, 24 hour vwap: 379.491514355

20:50:03 ben_vulpes: ah

20:50:09 ben_vulpes: wow diff to drop

20:50:13 ben_vulpes: no shit.

20:50:16 mircea_popescu: yeah srsly.

20:50:28 mircea_popescu: is it the first time since like 2012 ?

20:50:46 ben_vulpes: which would be first time in the asic history?

20:50:51 ben_vulpes: asic period*

20:51:50 ben_vulpes: ;;google first bitcoin asic

20:51:51 gribble: Mining - Bitcoin: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining; CoinTerra Opens Pre-Orders for First 16nm Bitcoin ASIC - CoinDesk: http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-16nm-bitcoin-asic/; CoinTerra™ announces the world's first 16nm ASIC based Bitcoin ...: http://cointerra.com/cointerra-announces-worlds-first-16nm-asic-based-bitcoin-miner-aire-miner/

20:52:54 mircea_popescu: pretty much yes.

20:53:14 mircea_popescu: the results of that market becoming "usgized", which is to say, they stopped selling to the general public.

20:53:20 mircea_popescu: competition -> dead.

20:53:42 ben_vulpes: why would the general public buy asics?

20:53:47 mircea_popescu: it's funny how the free market naturally evolves towards a corner to wedge itself in.

20:53:49 mircea_popescu: i have nfi.

20:54:24 ben_vulpes: stability zones on the manifold...

20:54:49 mircea_popescu: http://bitbet.us/bet/871/bitcoin-difficulty-to-fall-in-2014/#c3387

20:54:49 assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014 :: 16.87 B (75%) on Yes, 5.56 B (25%) on No | closing in 2 weeks 3 hours | weight: 7`086 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1wm0LWu )

20:54:51 ben_vulpes: +nubbins`:i've got some neat physical bitcoins, some strange bullion pieces, etc << don't forget newspapers lol

20:54:57 mircea_popescu: #3387: Anonymous 11-07-14 at 17:54

20:54:57 mircea_popescu: What kind of retard created this bet? Closing in 5 months?? why??? a bunch of people are just going to bet on Yes whenever they see difficulty is going to be down during the year, what's the point of this bet??

20:55:03 mircea_popescu: bitbet, as per usual.

20:55:08 mircea_popescu: "oh, people know teh market"

20:55:31 mike_c: don't tap on the fish tank.

20:56:06 mircea_popescu: lol

20:56:12 *: ben_vulpes skips the numismatics

20:57:03 mircea_popescu: see ? 1k lines not so painful.

21:03:26 mircea_popescu: !up leen_

21:03:37 []bot: Bet placed: 2.49 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/871/ Odds: 91(Y):9(N) by coin, 59(Y):41(N) by weight. Total bet: 59.42962981 BTC. Current weight: 7,083.

21:03:39 []bot: Bet placed: 4.4999 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/871/ Odds: 91(Y):9(N) by coin, 59(Y):41(N) by weight. Total bet: 59.42962981 BTC. Current weight: 7,083.

21:03:41 []bot: Bet placed: 20 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/871/ Odds: 91(Y):9(N) by coin, 59(Y):41(N) by weight. Total bet: 59.42962981 BTC. Current weight: 7,083.

21:03:43 []bot: Bet placed: 10.0008 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/871/ Odds: 91(Y):9(N) by coin, 59(Y):41(N) by weight. Total bet: 59.42962981 BTC. Current weight: 7,083.

21:03:53 kakobrekla: what the f

21:03:55 mike_c: hehe

21:04:06 leen_: need to speak to mircea_popescu

21:04:06 mike_c: only a few blocks left til it resolves

21:04:12 mircea_popescu: shoot

21:04:36 mircea_popescu: kik feeding frenzy

21:04:37 leen_: hi

21:04:42 leen_: there is a problem with a bet

21:04:44 leen_: ill send a link

21:04:58 leen_: http://bitbet.us/bet/1078/bitcoin-to-drop-under-250-before-2015/

21:04:58 assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin to drop under $250 before 2015 :: 1.73 B (15%) on Yes, 9.79 B (85%) on No | closing in 3 weeks 2 hours | weight: 92`554 (100`000 to 10`000) ... ( http://bit.ly/1wm4weF )

21:05:19 leen_: i needed to contact you here someone said to me in mail

21:05:35 mircea_popescu: go ahead.

21:05:41 leen_: u see that bet?

21:05:45 mircea_popescu: yes

21:05:45 leen_: first 2 bets are refunded

21:05:57 leen_: no problem at first sight

21:05:59 leen_: BUT

21:06:05 leen_: THE CALCULATOR IS WRONG

21:06:06 mircea_popescu: they are ?

21:06:13 mircea_popescu: what are you talking about ?

21:06:15 leen_: ITS WRITTEN IN THE STATEMENT

21:06:30 mircea_popescu: listen, make complete sentences, i can't follow what you're saying.

21:06:40 leen_: Bitcoin to drop under $250 before 2015 The price of one Bitcoin in USD will drop below $250 before January 2015 as per Bitstamp . If the difference between a given "Yes" bet time and the bet's closing time is less than one week, such bets will be refunded minus fee. First two "Yes" bets are excluded from this rule.

21:06:49 mircea_popescu: okay.

21:07:19 leen_: so i made a bet placing a winning BTC bet on: Yes pays: 4.39046755 BTC No pays: 1.14220213 BTC after fees, at current weight and assuming no one else bets

21:07:24 leen_: which is not true in this case

21:07:25 mircea_popescu: okay ?

21:07:30 mircea_popescu: how not ?

21:07:39 leen_: if the first 2 bets get efunded

21:07:53 leen_: then on a no bet i dont get their earnings

21:07:59 mircea_popescu: you're misreading it'd seem. what the bet says is that the first two yes bets never get refunded

21:08:02 mircea_popescu: and ulterior bets might.

21:08:04 leen_: but the calculator uses them to calculate the profit of the no bet

21:08:17 leen_: what does it mean?

21:08:31 mike_c: the point leen_, is to avoid late bettors who try to bet when the outcome is nearly certain

21:08:42 mircea_popescu: like it's happening right now on the difficulty bet.

21:08:46 BingoBoingo: The odds move anyway, the calculator is just to be used as a rough guideline.

21:08:49 mircea_popescu: and it's a moot point in any case, the 30th was 4 days ago.

21:08:56 mircea_popescu: price isn't going under 250 anytime soon, so.

21:08:58 mike_c: (and which is an integral part of bitbet)

21:09:01 leen_: so they dont get refunded?

21:09:11 mircea_popescu: doesn't seem too likely atm.

21:09:15 leen_: and if nobody else bets i get the money stated in the calculator?

21:09:29 leen_: i know that will not happen but just as an example

21:09:31 mircea_popescu: i guess so.

21:09:40 leen_: i guess so or you know it for sure?

21:09:53 mircea_popescu: well i don't know the future for sure, as it happens. just kinda close.

21:10:04 leen_: and if i win the bet

21:10:39 mircea_popescu: but what the bet says is that if bitcoin goes under 250 tomorrow, all yes bets but the first two wil be refunded.

21:10:40 leen_: if i place a bet on no now and pric doesnt go under 250 i win the amount stated at th calculator if noobne else bets?

21:10:57 mircea_popescu: right.

21:11:25 mircea_popescu: kinda impossible for that clause to affect you at all if price doesn't go under 250.

21:11:38 mircea_popescu: and if it does, no lost anyway, it's just a matter of how the yes pot is split up.

21:11:52 mircea_popescu: that was weird.

21:11:56 artifexd: mircea_popescu: Nope. No ideas. Just asking.

21:12:01 []bot: Bet placed: 4.99979999 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1058/ Odds: 90(Y):10(N) by coin, 85(Y):15(N) by weight. Total bet: 21.46220824 BTC. Current weight: 60,523.

21:12:14 mircea_popescu: yeah, turns out running a safe investment fund in btc is harder than in usd. who'd have thunk it!

21:12:38 artifexd: At least it hasn't lost 90% of its value

21:12:43 mircea_popescu: anyway, i suppose in all fairness the byzantino-rabinical approach to the written text as deployed for the needs of bitbet is a special kind of hell for all esl speakers.

21:12:53 mircea_popescu: artifexd there is that.

21:13:13 mircea_popescu: what is it under i don't even recall, like a % ?

21:13:57 artifexd: I believe it is right around where it started. No up. No down. Or at least not much.

21:14:03 mircea_popescu: aha.

21:14:34 mircea_popescu: something tells me this is going to be the biggest problem of bitcoin finance. to earn a living as a rentier you'll have to own a shitton of 'em.

21:18:51 nubbins`: ben_vulpes yes, newspapers too 8)

21:19:00 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=880599

21:19:00 assbot: "Mazuma" 8 inch Physical Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1wm9Tdz )

21:19:07 nubbins`: ^ more artisans finding btc

21:19:38 mircea_popescu: there;s going to be a flood of these. the marginal cost to make small metal discs is about zero

21:19:55 mircea_popescu: the pretense to value through "unique" and "design" and trhe usual bullcrap is supposedly endless.

21:20:05 mircea_popescu: exactly the sort of shit castrato usians go for.

21:20:24 mircea_popescu: everyone thinks they're steve jobs nao.

21:20:28 nubbins`: this one's actually just a piece of wood

21:20:47 mircea_popescu: wooden coins.

21:20:52 nubbins`: not even coins

21:20:56 nubbins`: it just says "bitcoin" on it

21:21:00 nubbins`: no qr, no code, no key

21:21:06 mircea_popescu: jesus fuck i want a buttcoin.org account. the stupidity bitcoin brings out from i dunno where...

21:21:18 nubbins`: anyway, the physical crypto space is at a standstill

21:21:31 nubbins`: those kialara guys are the first ones to do anything different since casascius

21:21:36 BingoBoingo: Indictment: http://qntra.net/2014/12/united-kingdom-severely-constrains-porn-production/

21:21:36 assbot: United Kingdom Severely Constrains Porn Production | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1vM5nT5 )

21:21:40 nubbins`: everyone else is all "lel silver rounds w/ holo super cool"

21:21:41 mircea_popescu: o.O

21:21:52 adlai: "Hebrew slang for money" wut

21:21:55 nubbins`: nobody gives a fuck about coins with holos

21:21:57 mircea_popescu: wait, the original wankers don't like wanking anymore ?

21:22:20 mircea_popescu: nubbins` dude but if you turn them they change!111

21:22:25 nubbins`: heh

21:22:25 mircea_popescu: "get a snowglobe"

21:22:39 nubbins`: i want a hellraiser-style puzzlebox physical btc

21:22:48 mircea_popescu: so make it.

21:22:57 adlai: "For an extra .25BTC ..." < what's the point of getting the damn thing if you don't get the extras

21:23:01 mircea_popescu: i want prison-made physical btc. toothpaste.

21:23:02 nubbins`: just might

21:23:16 adlai: it's just a bloody expensive paperweight without them

21:24:09 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i want prison-made physical btc. toothpaste. << Oh, if I go in I'll have an arts and crafts project.

21:24:30 mircea_popescu: actually, even better : TEETH!

21:24:46 mircea_popescu: documented prison fight, carved bitcoin teeth.

21:25:16 mircea_popescu: and speaking of which, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n5VbIuh_lo

21:25:16 assbot: I'm just a teenage dirtbag, baby. ❤ - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1wmcqV7 )

21:25:25 mircea_popescu: given the motto's from there, guess my next article.

21:25:30 mircea_popescu: which ima publish in a few hours.

21:28:05 nubbins`: heh

21:28:15 nubbins`: speaking of teeth, we got a pig skull the other day

21:29:24 mircea_popescu: ;;rated adlai

21:29:25 gribble: You have not yet rated user adlai

21:29:45 mircea_popescu: ;;rate adlai lisp

21:29:45 gribble: Error: 'lisp' is not a valid integer.

21:29:47 mircea_popescu: ;;rate adlai 1 lisp

21:29:48 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user adlai has been recorded.

21:31:25 mike_c: those kialara coins are cool.

21:32:07 mike_c: they look pretty sweet and i like that they are "designed" to only have 0.1 btc in them.

21:32:31 mats_cd03: https://soundcloud.com/royksopp/thank-you

21:32:33 assbot: Thank You by Röyksopp - Hear the world’s sounds ... ( http://bit.ly/1vM69PO )

21:32:42 mircea_popescu: how can ou design a coin with an address limit ?

21:32:55 mike_c: hence air quotes. it says 0.1 on it.

21:32:58 mike_c: they come unfunded

21:33:31 mike_c: these are all novelty items, so i think cas coins with 10 btc or whatever are dumb.

21:33:48 nubbins`: cas coins come funded

21:33:52 mats_cd03: also used to be one hundredth the value it is now, mate

21:33:59 mike_c: sure, no doubt.

21:34:07 mike_c: dumb now, not then.

21:34:11 nubbins`: anyway kialara bars would be WAY cooler if they ditched the text altogether

21:34:15 nubbins`: the name and the amount

21:35:20 mircea_popescu: mike_c you gotta ppreciate, when the cas coins were a thing, 50 btc was like 100 bux

21:35:34 mircea_popescu: it made perfect sense to have a coin with something more than nothing's worth of bitcoin in it.

21:35:48 mats_cd03: anyone want to play a quick chess game (blitz)?

21:35:52 nubbins`: the last series he sold were 0.1btc

21:35:52 mike_c: yes yes, i am saying it no longer makes sense to have a 10 btc that is actually funded

21:36:00 mike_c: *10 btc coin

21:36:00 mircea_popescu: it had its political importance at the time, these aren;'t really remembered today, but at some point i had to go into fucking something awful forums and argue with the idiots as to why bitcoin actualy is valuable.

21:36:04 nubbins`: it makes no sense to put a denomination on it, period

21:36:12 mircea_popescu: because at the time idiots honestly thought the "internet funbux" angle can be pushed.

21:36:16 mike_c: doesn't make a good xmas gift without a denomination

21:36:30 nubbins`: well ya know. it doesn't make a good xmas gift with one either.

21:36:37 mircea_popescu: well, prolly not anymore, you're right.

21:36:42 jurov: wait till some crazy canadian starts making them from mice poop and her genital hair

21:36:47 mircea_popescu: i imagine it makes little sense to have anymore at all, tbh.

21:36:52 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1058/ Odds: 93(Y):7(N) by coin, 89(Y):11(N) by weight. Total bet: 29.46220824 BTC. Current weight: 60,506.

21:36:53 nubbins`: jurov "his" hair. i'm a man.

21:36:55 []bot: Bet placed: 7 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1058/ Odds: 93(Y):7(N) by coin, 89(Y):11(N) by weight. Total bet: 29.46220824 BTC. Current weight: 60,506.

21:37:11 nubbins`: mircea_popescu cold storage for the discerning consumer, nothing more.

21:37:13 mircea_popescu: nubbins` wait wut ?!

21:37:18 nubbins`: LEL

21:37:20 nubbins`: i kid

21:37:24 mircea_popescu: it's the most inconvenient storage conceivable.

21:37:40 mircea_popescu: sorta like keeping your cheese in a truck wheel.

21:37:44 mircea_popescu: why not the fridge ?

21:37:47 jurov: http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2003/10/01/Public-money-for-pubic-hair-art-decried/UPI-46201065031891/ << hope that's not you nubbins`

21:37:49 assbot: Public money for pubic hair art decried - UPI.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1wmgYuS )

21:38:04 mike_c: nubbins`: can you vouch at all for kialara? i'm going to get one.

21:38:17 mircea_popescu: jurov i used to know this chick that wore a bracelet she made out of her pubic hair.

21:38:30 nubbins`: mike_c they look cool, no idea beyond that

21:38:53 nubbins`: jurov this is a problem, people get all hissy when someone gets a grant for something they personally don't like

21:39:02 mircea_popescu: total ocd case, she'd actually pluck her hairs by hand, braid them in threes then braid the results and on it went.

21:39:03 nubbins`: maybe their issue is with the grant system

21:40:03 nubbins`: there was a big sadness when a band called "holy fuck" got a grant

21:40:22 nubbins`: old windbags who'd never bothered to even listen to the band, decrying the vulgar waste of taxpayer money

21:40:40 nubbins`: but the thing is, they don't give a fuck that there's grant money being given away; they care that it's being given to a band called holy fuck

21:41:02 nubbins`: but, y'know.

21:41:07 nubbins`: it's not their say.

21:41:23 jurov: i intended tat just for laugh, but okay.

21:41:27 nubbins`: :D

21:41:38 nubbins`: i know! just taking a tangent

21:42:01 adlai: mircea_popescu: omg thank you tho mutth!

21:42:14 jurov: i myself was recipient of taxpayer money for nonsense, too. so what.

21:42:23 nubbins`: i fear the grant system discourages artists from putting their careers on economically viable paths

21:42:49 mircea_popescu: nubbins` http://fraudsters.com/2013/what-is-art/ srsly

21:42:50 assbot: What is art ? pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1wmiPzL )

21:43:00 nubbins`: i've read that like three times and i'm out of credits

21:43:01 mircea_popescu: there is no economically viable path for "artists" outside of mooching off the sovereign.

21:43:09 nubbins`: we even had our own chat about it, i drew you a thing.

21:43:19 mircea_popescu: I WONT SELL OUT!

21:43:52 nubbins`: you and your capital A "Art" ;D

21:44:44 nubbins`: oh btw, nice eulora biology

21:44:52 jurov: they can be beggars, too

21:44:54 mircea_popescu: guy's talented like all fuck isn't he.

21:44:57 nubbins`: nod

21:45:09 mircea_popescu: jurov except then they're not real artists. just buskers.

21:45:24 BingoBoingo: jurov: what's with the submissions to qntra containing lengthy documents verbatim? << lengthy documents go into blockquotes, don't get counted

21:45:26 mircea_popescu: andy warwhore is teh true artist.

21:45:32 nubbins`: he's not a real blogger, he's just a busker

21:45:54 mircea_popescu: yeah, this i true in the reverse. bloggers that write for someone else aren't much more than buskers.

21:46:30 nubbins`: anyone working for someone else is a busker if you wanna split that hair the rest of the way

21:46:49 mircea_popescu: all the oms and whatnot of the world.

21:46:53 mircea_popescu: nah.

21:46:59 jurov: i guess mircea meant pople working for general public as opposed to their master

21:47:03 mircea_popescu: a hooker not working for someone else is just a bum.

21:47:36 mircea_popescu: there's liberal professions and servile professions.

21:47:43 jurov: https://www.flickr.com/photos/esaruoho/15160452954/

21:47:45 assbot: An indiscriminate slave | Flickr - Photo Sharing! ... ( http://bit.ly/1wmkqpk )

21:47:45 mircea_popescu: artist is a servile profession. the long and the short of it.

21:47:55 mircea_popescu: it's also the one to most famously rebel against its status, but so what of that.

21:50:19 []bot: Bet placed: 3 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1058/ Odds: 93(Y):7(N) by coin, 90(Y):10(N) by weight. Total bet: 32.46220824 BTC. Current weight: 60,497.

21:51:31 jurov: nubbins` if you're ever gonna make some b-a book, these reich images are very fitting

21:52:48 jurov: the book "Listen, Little Man!" is good, too, except for wtf conclusions

21:53:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34744 @ 0.00036661 = 12.7375 BTC [+]

21:54:25 jurov: https://www.flickr.com/photos/esaruoho/15595016198/in/photostream/ hahaha

21:54:28 assbot: Your slave driver is yourself | Flickr - Photo Sharing! ... ( http://bit.ly/1vM7INN )

21:55:01 jurov: grr it linked other image as i meant

21:59:58 BingoBoingo: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/article/idUSKCN0JG23820141202?irpc=932

21:59:59 assbot: Some Ferguson residents accuse police of aggressive arrest tactics ... ( http://bit.ly/1wmoPZa )

22:13:45 nubbins`: some of these are weird

22:13:45 nubbins`: https://www.flickr.com/photos/esaruoho/15778534711/in/photostream/

22:13:47 assbot: Inane chatter at your social functions | Flickr - Photo Sharing! ... ( http://bit.ly/1wmtCd6 )

22:21:55 nubbins`: anyway, if anyone's interested, there's maybe ten books left in the first edition of our latest, so get 'em while they're hot

22:26:31 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=871618.msg9642091#msg9642091

22:26:31 assbot: Diletto De Bitcoin - Cocobolo Bitcoin Dildo ... ( http://bit.ly/1zMVQM0 )

22:28:07 BingoBoingo: Best Bitcoin Dildo so far

22:28:13 *: mats_cd03 facepalms

22:29:10 punkman: awesome

22:29:18 kakobrekla: > It was commissioned by a person on this forum but then they back out half way through completion. Original price was $600usd.

22:29:34 kakobrekla: buyer : "now that you finally made the thing, you can go fuck yourself. bye"

22:30:12 kakobrekla: and then buy it for 150$.

22:30:21 []bot: Bet placed: 1.5 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/871/ Odds: 91(Y):9(N) by coin, 59(Y):41(N) by weight. Total bet: 60.92962981 BTC. Current weight: 7,053.

22:30:37 punkman: he totally had to use his wood-turning skills and make it ribbed

22:32:09 kakobrekla: would be more interesting you could screw it

22:32:25 punkman: that's not how dildos work kakobrekla

22:33:05 mats_cd03: man, 600usd for a wooden dildo

22:33:09 mats_cd03: thats inflation for you.

22:33:30 mircea_popescu: "If you have ever been F#CKED using BTCitcoin for something this would be a great way to memorialize that as well."

22:33:31 mircea_popescu: ?!

22:33:50 mircea_popescu: dude don't tell me the forum muppetry actually fucks itself to memorialize being fucked.

22:36:14 BingoBoingo: Of course they do. It's how they have to learn through pennance.

22:37:17 mats_cd03: so meta.

22:37:51 mircea_popescu: buttmeta

22:37:51 kakobrekla: but if you been screwed by bitcoin no cigar

22:40:12 mats_cd03: now, to look for another distro now that debian's been converted to systemd....

22:45:11 []bot: Bet placed: 5 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1058/ Odds: 94(Y):6(N) by coin, 91(Y):9(N) by weight. Total bet: 37.46220824 BTC. Current weight: 60,461.

22:45:15 nubbins`: try dubian

22:45:52 nubbins`: all the system sounds are done by this guy: http://imgur.com/hVCvAkC

22:45:53 assbot: imgur: the simple image sharer ... ( http://bit.ly/1zMYmBZ )

22:45:57 mats_cd03: ;;ud dubian

22:45:58 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dubian | Dubian. A young straight biological male, particularly in his teenage years or early ... The Dubian is indeed a bio-guy, therefore, if you're not into bio-peen, ...

22:46:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38369 @ 0.00036838 = 14.1344 BTC [+]

22:46:55 mats_cd03: > that bears a striking resemblance to an androgynous lesbian. A heterosexual dude who, at first glance, is often mistaken for a boyish lesbian. He is usually of smaller build, wears ambiguous attire, (ie: skinny jeans, Chuck Taylors) and cuts his hair into a faux hawk or other such lesbian-trademarked coiffure.

22:47:06 mircea_popescu: ajajaj dubian

22:47:36 mats_cd03: my vocabulary grows

22:48:56 mircea_popescu: this one

22:48:58 mircea_popescu: 's great.

22:50:25 mats_cd03: i get the distinct impression there's no good distro left besides gentoo

22:50:37 mats_cd03: maybe its time to move to openbsd

22:50:54 mircea_popescu: prolly gentoo's the last man standing

22:52:44 *: mats_cd03 returns to beating vagrant into submission

22:55:00 asciilifeform: gentoo's the last man standing << not standing. hobbling on leg stump like the knight in 'monty python'.

23:00:00 mircea_popescu: i dunno who cares about recent distros anyway.

23:00:03 mircea_popescu: or why would they.

23:00:18 mircea_popescu: but i suppose putting more steam behind openbsd can't hurt.

23:02:58 []bot: Bet placed: 1.5 BTC for Yes on "Bitcoin difficulty to fall in 2014" http://bitbet.us/bet/871/ Odds: 91(Y):9(N) by coin, 60(Y):40(N) by weight. Total bet: 62.42962981 BTC. Current weight: 7,042.

23:04:27 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

23:04:39 gribble: Current Blocks: 332636 | Current Difficulty: 4.03000303278914E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 332639 | Next Difficulty In: 3 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 19 minutes and 35 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

23:04:45 BingoBoingo: O.o

23:05:36 mike_c: ;;tslb

23:05:42 gribble: Error: Problem retrieving latest block data.

23:06:02 mike_c: this is exciting

23:06:16 asciilifeform: who cares about recent distros << recent distros - maybe no one. recent kernels - quite a few folks doomed to grunt on recent hardware. who don't have the muscles, time, or energy to vivisect the patches.

23:08:40 BingoBoingo: http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-tech&m=141740633215923&w=2

23:08:42 assbot: 'LibreSSL Windows port status update' - MARC ... ( http://bit.ly/1pPBbH3 )

23:15:35 mircea_popescu: ahhhahaha

23:16:52 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform who exactly is doomed to grunt on recent hardware

23:18:31 mircea_popescu: https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty << Estimated Next Difficulty: 40,010,998,361 (-0.72%) Adjust time: After 3 Blocks, About 29.5 minutes

23:18:32 assbot: Bitcoin Difficulty and Hashrate Chart - BitcoinWisdom ... ( http://bit.ly/1pPEHRV )

23:18:34 mircea_popescu: no dice.

23:23:39 nubbins`: :o

23:23:54 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: who exactly is doomed to grunt on recent hardware << just about anyone using issued portables. anyone with rented servers. most folks.

23:24:36 mircea_popescu: uh. if you have servers you'd have to be insane to use rented hardware oyu manage yourself. either colo your own metal or else have the fucking dc handle it if you don't give a shit.

23:24:52 mircea_popescu: and who the fuck takes any electronics from their job is so stupid shouldn't get to live anyway.

23:25:12 mircea_popescu: i can't even be bothered to count all the ways that's stupid. wtf.

23:26:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: stupid << answer then. i requisitioned portable comp, could have asked for anything. should have asked for 486? with 640x480 lcd ?

23:26:29 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember, this is a box i have to actually live with.

23:28:56 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on account of my profession, i need max disk, cpu, ram, attainable. in portable box. still say 486?

23:29:56 jurov: mircea has slaves to carry boxen around

23:30:21 asciilifeform: jurov: he also doesn't strictly have to leave home. or do work.

23:35:23 asciilifeform: jurov: i even know what mircea will say now - that poor choice of profession, should instead drill for oil in the north atlantic, or fight in syria.

23:35:30 midnightmagic: asciilifeform: novena maybe?

23:35:54 asciilifeform: midnightmagic: lol!

23:36:00 midnightmagic: oh you said "max". nvm

23:36:18 asciilifeform: midnightmagic: handmade piece of shit, and made of what? quite recent pieces.

23:37:30 midnightmagic: it has an fpga onboard, (almost) no firmware except perhaps for the sdd. it's free-ish

23:38:13 asciilifeform: on account of my profession, i occasionally do things like booting up winblows in an emulator. on what would mircea do this? 486?

23:38:36 asciilifeform: on fpga emulating a 486?

23:39:25 *: midnightmagic backs slowly away and maybe should've read back further than one 24-line screenful

23:40:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform whatever sarge runs on ?

23:41:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: need max cpu, max ram, or will hate life.

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23:41:26 mircea_popescu: maybe i'm missing something here, but, why do you think you can't run "max" whatever they are on older debians ?

23:41:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cannot, much as i'd love to, use 486, or bk-0011, or handmade pdp-11 in fpga.

23:41:44 mircea_popescu: the cpu instruction set changed or something ? it's the same thing.

23:41:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was explaining why doomed to recent hardware!

23:42:00 mircea_popescu: no but look, linux only went braindamaged this decade.

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23:43:04 mircea_popescu: it's not like simply ignoring pottering forces one to any sort of anything. so you run 2005 linux on 2010 hardware. you probably don't want the modern crapolade for any serious purpose anyway,

23:43:19 mircea_popescu: finding a fucking nat router that's not backdoored by design is a fucking hassle as it is.

23:44:15 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i tried to explain, recent hardware means, inevitably, either recent kernel, or laborious pick-and-choose driver vivisection.

23:44:18 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> on account of my profession, i occasionally do things like booting up winblows in an emulator. << actually last i did that it was on... ubuntu!

23:44:20 mircea_popescu: fitting neh ?

23:45:09 asciilifeform: in fact you cannot run 2005 linux on 2014 hw. not if you want, e.g., video output. or networking.

23:45:39 mircea_popescu: im not sure why you want to run 2014 hw at all. but whatever, maybe i don't do enough hi res porn conversion on a laptop to care ?

23:46:13 mircea_popescu: something's amiss with this picture tho. i find it hard to believe that you need a lot of computing that is a) physically in your lap and b) exactly fits within the seeming arbitrary constriction of "what 2014 laptops allow"

23:46:20 mircea_popescu: but does not fit in the "what 2010 laptops allowed"

23:46:53 asciilifeform: did try to explain. winblows in emulator, for instance. i'm a 'reverse-engineer.'

23:47:07 mircea_popescu: and you gotta run the winblows in an emulator on a physical laptop ?

23:47:18 mircea_popescu: you can't just boot up say a vm for it on a remote server ?

23:47:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha. laptop.

23:48:04 mircea_popescu: well this sounds like a fucking curse on the level of, "must have sex in my car trunk, no matter what"

23:48:05 mircea_popescu: sucks.

23:48:18 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in car trunk, and it has to have room for six fire extinguishers.

23:48:41 mircea_popescu: i just never ran into this sort of edge myself. i guess count it as a blessing an' move on.

23:49:25 mircea_popescu: (kinda weird how the "stuck with windowsy linux" discussion denegerated into a "because i need to run windows".

23:49:36 mircea_popescu: poettering should be good news for you then - soon enough you won't need an emulator at all.)

23:49:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l!

23:49:56 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not only winblows, though. but it's the 'heaviest' victim.

23:50:05 mircea_popescu: somehow i imagine what the us agency of redhat is trying to solve is exactly your problem,

23:50:10 mircea_popescu: just for more retarded people.

23:50:14 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the single biggest hog in my butcher shop.

23:51:28 mircea_popescu: anyway, entertain me here. so what happens if you use 2010 hardware with older linux instals is that what, your shit moves slower ?

23:51:33 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you haven't even heard the rest of the fun. at my other job, also stuck with maximally modern hw. because how many floating point ops per second determines, more or less directly, how we're paid.

23:51:51 mircea_popescu: so there's no 1k chickens where you live ?

23:52:10 mircea_popescu: here's a thought : two $10 old cpus are faster than a $50 modern cpu.

23:52:31 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can only afford a few dozen chickens before 'bracket' rises (cost of next tier of floor space, cooling, begin to dwarf the machines)

23:52:54 mircea_popescu: wait, wut ?

23:53:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mircea_popescu: two 0 old cpus are faster than a 0 modern << not for molecular dynamics sim. need fast shared memory.

23:53:17 mircea_popescu: there is a lot terribly wrong with the picture you paint. i've yet to see this wonder where support costs more than the hardware.

23:53:56 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: visit more threadbare pauper's shops made of shoelace and bamboo

23:54:25 mircea_popescu: but you see how from a business perspective this makes no sense ? the hardware's the biggest cost. in any and all dcs ever since the world begun.

23:55:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no dc. we're talking about a handful of boxes in a cheapo office. if any more, must have dc cage, then nothing left to eat.

23:55:33 nubbins`: i once spent a summer running fluid dynamics sims on a 24-node beowulf cluster

23:55:38 nubbins`: what a shit show

23:56:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and actually renting stuff like amzon offers is not cheaper than what you're currently doing ?!

23:56:33 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from a 'business perspective' very few of the things folks do to survive make sense. ice cream truck will not make the owner rich. nor the knife sharpener in buenos aires.

23:56:52 mircea_popescu: but both of these make sense from a business perspective.

23:57:07 mircea_popescu: now suppose the major cost of the icecream truck wasn't icecream, but... windshield wiper.

23:57:11 mircea_popescu: i'd be just as puzzled.

23:57:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: last i checked, rented gpu was not worth the cost. but say i did. then i get: the very same modern hardware... just - rented.

23:57:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as i said afore, " you'd have to be insane to use rented hardware oyu manage yourself. either colo your own metal or else have the fucking dc handle it if you don't give a shit"

23:57:56 mircea_popescu: trying to peg you into one or the other here.

23:57:59 mircea_popescu: not going so well.

23:58:59 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if i were to rent hardware, would have to do most of the management work personally on account of massive existing toolchain crud.

23:58:59 BingoBoingo: Obummer comes for your boners: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/12/02/the_able_act_congress_wants_medicare_to_stop_paying_for_penis_pumps.html

23:59:00 assbot: The ABLE Act: Congress wants Medicare to stop paying for penis pumps. ... ( http://bit.ly/1vjzbaP )

23:59:05 nubbins`: http://nparc.cisti-icist.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/npsi/ctrl?action=shwart&index=an&req=8896078&lang=en

23:59:07 assbot: Beowulf clusters and high performance computing at the Institute for Marine Dynamics - NRC Publications - Canada Institute for Scientific and Technical Information ... ( http://bit.ly/1vjzdQd )

23:59:13 nubbins`: only an abstract, but hey