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Transcript for 03-02-2015, 2265 lines:

00:00:16 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu then a dayjob keeper is me!

00:00:30 mircea_popescu: lemme tell you a joke.

00:00:40 pete_dushenski: k

00:00:47 mircea_popescu: if you ever meet a hungarian speaking foreign languages you just met a jew.

00:01:10 jurov: lol

00:01:14 mircea_popescu: hehehe.

00:01:44 pete_dushenski: haha!

00:02:46 pete_dushenski: i wonder what other peoples/nationalities this heuristic might apply to...

00:02:56 pete_dushenski: heuristic/funny

00:03:01 mircea_popescu: funnyristic.

00:04:00 pete_dushenski: aka stereotype ;/

00:06:29 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

00:06:33 gribble: Current Blocks: 341706 | Current Difficulty: 4.127287389469702E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 342719 | Next Difficulty In: 1013 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 7 hours, 57 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 45251697037.7 | Estimated Percent Change: 9.64029

00:09:09 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/bitbet-sbbet-january-2015-statement/

00:13:14 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu thanks for the translations :D

00:13:24 mircea_popescu: yw

00:19:48 jurov: btw, are the pogosticks supposed to accept outside connections? if they're plugged into home routers then we need upnp then

00:20:18 jurov: and it was the first thing excised... it will ran as standalone daemon, i guess

00:20:21 jurov: *run

00:20:47 jurov: the upnpnp deamon, i mean

00:24:29 mircea_popescu: i doubt someone who has the werewithal to get the pogo going needs me to unpnp him

00:28:24 mats: ;;ticker

00:28:25 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 237.8, Best ask: 238.94, Bid-ask spread: 1.14000, Last trade: 237.79, 24 hour volume: 15989.25963627, 24 hour low: 221.79, 24 hour high: 241.98, 24 hour vwap: 229.507388939

00:32:43 mircea_popescu: !up kobud

00:33:46 pete_dushenski: I think that in the old days where the financial system was not too developed, the only way to develop a new idea was to be born rich, to have resources and use them. Today and increasingly so to the extent the financial system works well, you can start a company, apply an idea, or even run large companies even if you are not born rich and don't have a lot of money.

00:34:02 pete_dushenski: ^today apparently = neobee

00:34:06 trinque: lol

00:34:11 pete_dushenski: and this is a good thing!

00:35:37 trinque: today as back then, you can bootstrap yourself so long as you're prepared to lay brick by hand for a half decade

00:36:45 pete_dushenski: unless the vc fairy sprinkles some dust on you while you're sleeping

00:36:55 pete_dushenski: then it really only takes a few minutes

00:37:02 thestringpuller: trinque hah; you are going to treat your robots like people?

00:37:16 mircea_popescu: it can work, sure.

00:37:21 pete_dushenski: and 11 year olds can give ted talks on how to fix the world

00:37:31 mircea_popescu: similarly, in the old days when you were born a maid, you were going to be a maid even if you were really pretty.

00:37:38 mircea_popescu: now you can also be a pop singer.

00:37:38 trinque: pete_dushenski: the vc fairy wanted 67% of my business

00:37:40 trinque: I told him to fuck off

00:38:04 pete_dushenski: lol

00:38:33 pete_dushenski: that's an aggressive ask eh

00:39:44 mats: heh

00:39:56 mircea_popescu: it's not common to allow founders control in the financed vehicle, principally because founders usually fuck it up.

00:40:05 mircea_popescu: cases like spolski's are the exception.

00:40:29 mats: unconfirmed report of someone trying to root an ubuntu luser idli g herr

00:40:42 mats: agh, mobile. idling here.

00:41:32 mircea_popescu: how did it go ?

00:42:32 mats: guy went to sleep before i got more details, im going to put up a vulnerable box later and see what happens

00:43:33 mats: get a cloak, people

00:46:04 trinque: heh I wonder how many servers just got ssh'd into

00:48:05 danielpbarron: https://twitter.com/kyuupichan/status/562411554583244801

00:48:07 assbot: Haha. "Please use the shared hairdryers only for the hair on your head. Thank you for your cooperation." http://t.co/49FIEB4iKo

00:48:34 mircea_popescu: trinque some ubuntu vuln reported or something ?

00:49:06 trinque: not to my knowledge

00:49:24 trinque: I tend to assume things like znc are riddled with holes

00:49:38 trinque: could be something along those lines

00:50:06 mircea_popescu: "The turn of the cultural left to Twitter is a reflection of its weakness on university campuses, not its strength. Today?s intra-left fights over cultural identity are not the birth pangs of a dangerous new radical left elite of cultural enforcers. They?re the product of anger and economic powerlessness, the unanticipated result of the hollowing out of humanities on university campuses, and the parlous state of in

00:50:07 mircea_popescu: tellectual journalism. "

00:50:08 mircea_popescu: ha!

00:50:53 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 5000 @ 0.00096956 = 4.8478 BTC [+] {5}

00:50:56 mircea_popescu: i tell you, within twenty years if that as much as having been interested in the left will be a hanging offense.

00:51:36 mircea_popescu: "This is in turn leading to an (unsustainable) proliferation of cultural commentary, some of it unreadable, but much of it sharp and interesting. Much of this commentary is understandably driven by spleen. Impoverished freelancers and adjunct intellectuals, scraping out a living from commuter teaching and dead end jobs, are angry when they look at the comfortable positions that a previous generation of humanities intel

00:51:36 mircea_popescu: lectuals had, and that they never will. They won?t ever have good jobs. They do have Twitter. But that?s nearly all that they do have or are likely to have any time soon."

00:52:17 mircea_popescu: that's quite right : nobody ovulating today will get as far as sara mccune.

00:53:54 mircea_popescu: even Leah McGrath Goodman's poverty will be relatively a high mark.

00:57:48 mats: http://nvd.nist.gov/nvd.cfm?cvename=CVE-2012-3411

00:59:17 trinque: mats: this was the guy's issue?

00:59:36 mats: yeah

00:59:41 mircea_popescu: just a dos ?

00:59:50 trinque: way different than "rooted"

00:59:52 mats: looks p benign

00:59:58 asciilifeform: jurov: if they're plugged into home routers then we need upnp then << why????!? every home router ever made, even utter garbage, lets user open ports the normal way

01:00:05 asciilifeform: fuck upnp.

01:00:06 mircea_popescu: esp since... well... so dnsmasq will get killed by kernel

01:00:22 BingoBoingo: systemLulz https://twitter.com/lusis/status/562288488952107008/photo/1

01:00:25 assbot: man I'm glad the systemd devs all have SSDs. http://t.co/92rGdSitBF

01:00:27 asciilifeform: not just for what it is, but for how it's implemented. (metric shit-ton of xml garbage, book-length standards doc)

01:00:39 mats: i need coffee

01:00:44 mircea_popescu: is dnsmasq even standard in ubuntu ?!

01:00:46 jurov: i have never seen anyone except myself opening ports the normal way

01:00:55 trinque: mircea_popescu: it's part of the awful libvirt wad

01:01:10 mircea_popescu: jurov that may be a function of social circle!

01:01:51 trinque: handles IPs and whatnot on the virtual networks

01:01:52 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the only way to develop a new idea was to be born rich << or... take it. chingis khan style.

01:01:52 jurov: i won't contend that

01:02:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in retrospect, the efforts of those shitgremlins to shoehorn xml into things are so lulzy.

01:02:17 mircea_popescu: it's dead anyway, but hey, well done guise, at least you went blind on code.

01:02:35 asciilifeform: root an ubuntu luser idli g herr << lol, time for honeypots

01:02:43 jurov: jus' saying i don't have anyone to give pogostick to.

01:02:54 mircea_popescu: the reports of mark twain's rooting seem grossly exaggerated.

01:03:03 jurov: people who know how to open ports either do have a node or can't be arsed to even for free

01:03:15 mircea_popescu: jurov you can just drop one in local library.

01:03:20 mircea_popescu: they will... never figure it out.

01:03:30 mircea_popescu: considering what it costs...

01:04:11 mircea_popescu: lol i have spinning disks.

01:04:16 mircea_popescu: for one thing, much easier to destroy.

01:05:02 *: asciilifeform also runs spinning disks

01:05:52 asciilifeform: i don't know any serious computer user who does not have a multitude of spinning disks at all times.

01:05:55 mircea_popescu: but then again it works out : we're not systemd devs.

01:05:59 jurov: if i do, then i'll add upnp anyway. just fyi.

01:06:13 asciilifeform: jurov: you know, upnp can run as a separate daemon

01:06:20 mircea_popescu: jurov not a crime. but you could also just and typeadmin admin

01:06:22 asciilifeform: jurov: absolutely no reason to build it into bitcoind, ever

01:06:34 jurov: yes, as a separate daemon

01:06:39 asciilifeform: even if you absolutely need it somewhere (e.g., bitcoind as malware payload)

01:07:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it occurs that at 4mb, nodes can be run as virii by now without problems

01:08:03 asciilifeform: 4mb on arm

01:08:07 mircea_popescu: especially since usgavin has made space double and bandwidth expand

01:08:09 asciilifeform: ~1.2 compressed

01:08:13 mircea_popescu: yes.

01:08:21 asciilifeform: the blockchain is the bulk of the footprint, quite obviously

01:08:39 mod6: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000043.html << asciilifeform, thanks for this. this goes along with some of the trouble we've been seeing over the last 72 hours.

01:08:39 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1AlKumo )

01:08:40 asciilifeform: the proggy itself has never been large in comparison

01:08:54 asciilifeform: mod6: trouble << do tell

01:09:14 mod6: in a wide variety of ways, and it's not consistant, we've been having issues getting past the last checkpoint block (more often than not): 168,000

01:09:25 mod6: one sec, i have a matrix for what we've tried.

01:09:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaik windows doens't mind secret partitions.

01:10:02 mod6: we're still testing this out... but i/we haven't encoutered anything like this until just this past 72 hours:

01:10:05 mod6: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=0Mdd9zrL

01:10:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1AlKIdk )

01:11:30 mod6: we're interested to see if anyone running: v0.5.3 + patches {1, rm_rf_upnp, 2, 3, 4, & 6 (db_config) } runs into the same issues.

01:12:04 mod6: also, v0.5.3. + patches {1, rm_rf_upnp, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 7} (which includes the version update)

01:13:01 mircea_popescu: A Person Paper on Purity in Language << i don't grok wtf this is supposed to be.

01:13:13 mod6: we also note that if you do remove checkpoints, obv, this is no longer a problem.

01:15:07 mod6: but, its weird, because a week ago i ran a full sync of: v0.5.3 + {1, rm_rf_upnp, 2, 3, 4, 6} and sync'd just fine, as you can see in the matrix notes (was able to send/receive here: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=FSA9gxs8)

01:15:09 assbot: Pastebin.com Unknown Paste ID ... ( http://bit.ly/1AlM47Z )

01:15:55 mod6: and TomServo was able to run with the following config and just achieved full sync: v0.5.3 + {1, rm_rf_upnp, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7}

01:16:19 PeterL: what do the checkpoints do?

01:16:36 mod6: so, like we were saying, its not consistant. and perhaps we need to point directly at v0.5.3 nodes... not sure.

01:17:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i don't grok wtf this is supposed to be << was written when the whole 'pronoun warrior' thing was brand new

01:17:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is (i thought this was very obvious) a spoof on subject

01:17:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no but looky : "Perhaps this piece shocks you. It is meant to. The entire point of it is to use something that we find shocking as leverage to illustrate the fact that something that we usually close our eyes to is also very shocking. The most effective way I know to do so is to develop an extended analogy with something known as shocking and reprehensible. Racism is that thing, in this case. I am happy w

01:17:35 mircea_popescu: ith this piece, despite-but also because of-its shock value. I think it makes its point better than any factual article could. As a friend of mine said, "It makes you so uncomfortable that you can't ignore it." I admit that rereading it makes even me, the author, uncomfortable! Numerous friends have warned me that in publishing this piece I am taking a serious risk of earning myself a reputation as a terrible racist. I

01:17:35 mircea_popescu: guess I cannot truly believe that anyone would see this piece that way. To misperceive it this way would be like calling someone a vicious racist for telling other people "The word 'nigger' is extremely offensive." If allusions to racism, especially for the purpose of satirizing racism and its cousins, are confused with racism itself, then I think it is time to stop writing."

01:17:40 mircea_popescu: a) it does not shock me.

01:17:45 mircea_popescu: b) it is simply very bad writing.

01:17:56 mircea_popescu: there's nothing of depth in there, it;s just the usual libertard tedium.

01:18:07 mircea_popescu: and yes, women and men are structurally different, and will never be the same.

01:18:19 mircea_popescu: not in the way white men and black men are superficially different

01:18:26 mircea_popescu: but quite in the way your pony is not your dog.

01:18:46 mod6: PeterL: well, one thing they do, is prevent spam from bogus blocks from old timestamps: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.5.3/src/main.cpp#L1442

01:18:48 assbot: bitcoin/main.cpp at v0.5.3 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1CoQMyA )

01:18:48 asciilifeform: mr h was trying, as a young academic in usa, to troll liberasts without being stoned to death immediately

01:19:17 mircea_popescu: he seems to be proposing the notion that saying she when i mean a cuntbearer is about as bad as inventing a special ble pronoun to denote a guy's color

01:19:18 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and it reads as the usual tedium because it -was- same, with words swapped

01:19:25 mircea_popescu: well here's the thing : i don't happen to give a shit about the guy's color

01:19:36 mircea_popescu: but i'm not particularly interested to discuss anyone outside of their gender.

01:19:53 asciilifeform: at any rate it was a mega-troll in gringolandia

01:19:58 mircea_popescu: which is why english, latin and every other language has a gender pronoun and declension.

01:20:06 asciilifeform: if does not work outside - unsurprising

01:20:10 mircea_popescu: i guess anything can be a mega troll there.

01:20:22 asciilifeform: 'seinfeld effect' case.

01:20:53 mircea_popescu: such a dumb premise tho. "i will write very bad prose, which will prove to you that sensible is shocking!!!1"

01:20:57 asciilifeform: cuntbearer << can't help but imagine this as something like a cupbearer

01:21:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kinda what's meant.

01:22:40 mircea_popescu: and somehow this gets conflated with marital status ? who the hell cares if the woman's "married" whatever that even means.

01:22:47 asciilifeform: mod6: not once have i seen the wedge at 168000

01:22:54 asciilifeform: with any of our 0.5.3 derivatives

01:23:18 *: mircea_popescu apologizes for all the spam in the more important discussion.

01:23:19 asciilifeform: the 'bastard' variant will wedge, however, for up to an hour (in my experiments)

01:23:30 asciilifeform: when it encounters a shit-feeder

01:23:32 mircea_popescu: mod6 i didn't see a 168000 exactly freeze either, ever

01:24:02 mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: not once have i seen the wedge at 168000 << us either, until 72 hours ago

01:24:13 asciilifeform: why no more than hour, i do not know - either good fortune, or their connection flakes out (see former), or ?

01:24:30 mod6: hmm.

01:25:07 asciilifeform: mod6: also note that the hardcoded seeds do not come into play unless irc fails

01:25:18 asciilifeform: (presently irc is there and enabled)

01:25:20 mod6: yeah, gotcha.

01:25:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if memory serves there'sa cutoff that severs unproductive connections after an hour.

01:25:56 asciilifeform: that'd be it then

01:26:58 asciilifeform: mod6: post your debug.log

01:27:02 asciilifeform: mod6: for the wedge

01:27:58 mod6: so if anyone else sees any wedging on a checkpoint block like the following, let me know right away, pm me if required: http://dpaste.com/1N3NPT9

01:27:59 assbot: dpaste: 1N3NPT9 ... ( http://bit.ly/1AlPffR )

01:28:25 mod6: asciilifeform: there is a snippit in the matrix one. not sure if I have a full one still.

01:28:43 mod6: i probably do, but I'm making a fresh sync now.

01:28:50 asciilifeform: aha found it

01:28:56 mod6: will have a fresh one in an hour or two

01:29:27 *: asciilifeform recites kakobrekla's sacramental 'did somebody molest the britneychain'

01:30:08 mod6: i was getting pretty paranoid at first.

01:30:24 mod6: had a tinfoil hat on and everything heheh

01:30:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41350 @ 0.00037014 = 15.3053 BTC [+]

01:31:49 mod6: got 100k blocks to go until i probably re-wedge @ 168k

01:32:35 mod6: one time i got wedged at like 27,5XX !?

01:32:46 mod6: this was on Saturday night.

01:33:09 mod6: but then i applied the rm_checkpoints patch and then it continued on np.

01:33:32 asciilifeform: mod6: make a copy of .bitcoin shortly prior to wedge

01:33:47 mod6: ok will do.

01:35:35 mod6: We wanted to collect as much data as possible before we let other know in #b-a. Hence the delay until now.

01:36:15 mod6: I wasn't fully sure that it wasn't our build script or something wonky screwing it up... but a hand-build showed the same result.

01:36:19 asciilifeform: not proclaiming a molested britneychain as proven fact yet, but if it had been, it would look rather much like this.

01:37:18 mod6: i've got mutiple good v0.5.3 chains saved, but ... just was regression testing to ensure full sync with the v0.5.3.1 patch before release sign & cut

01:37:46 mod6: lo and behold..

01:38:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, i keep old nodes and old chains.

01:38:24 mircea_popescu: it must be some sort of local issue.

01:38:34 asciilifeform: mod6: this'd be why i objected to zapping the checkpoints thing wholesale. now, programmable checkpoints - by all means.

01:38:41 asciilifeform: config file - where they belong.

01:38:52 asciilifeform: just say no to hardcoded magic numb3rz.

01:39:06 mircea_popescu: code is not for data. data is not for code.

01:39:13 mod6: yeah. that's the new plan. all magic numbers in a config file.

01:39:23 mircea_popescu: mod6 wasn;t it the old plan ?!

01:39:25 mod6: or, at least, we'll start with that.

01:39:47 mod6: yeah, well, still is the plan i should say :)

01:39:54 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: guess who also keeps vintage blockchain around

01:40:03 asciilifeform: and i doubt it's just 2 of us

01:40:24 mircea_popescu: i don't just "keep it around', it's what i actually use.

01:40:25 asciilifeform: all molestation of britneychain is necessarily localized phenomenon

01:40:35 *: asciilifeform uses, when uses anything at all

01:40:49 mircea_popescu: and yeah pretty sure we're not the onlyones. not by a longmargin.

01:40:51 *: asciilifeform keeps a number of editions going

01:41:39 mod6: hmm, but yeah, really /was/ weird that it was inconsistant.

01:41:54 mod6: i.e. TomServo having total success, and ben & I having weding problems.

01:42:09 mod6: and we were using same build scripts .. and me building by hand even once.

01:42:09 *: asciilifeform uses bitcoin as a scientific toy, curio, but if he had been firing it in anger for years as mircea_popescu had, would have finished own implementation eons ago

01:42:28 mircea_popescu: btw, since you were asking ( a while ago) : found the oldest src set, monday may 21st 2012

01:42:31 mircea_popescu: you still want it ?

01:42:35 asciilifeform: yes!

01:42:36 asciilifeform: sign, post

01:42:47 asciilifeform: to jurov's turdatron, say

01:42:51 asciilifeform: as big fat gz

01:43:15 mircea_popescu: not big at all, 4 mb ish

01:43:24 asciilifeform: bombs away.

01:44:02 danielpbarron: height=176772 << no wedge here

01:44:25 mod6: what's your build?

01:44:34 asciilifeform: i'd love to know what blocks are in the molestation set.

01:44:40 danielpbarron: mod6, the one asciilifeform compiled

01:44:41 mod6: is it the portotronic?

01:44:44 danielpbarron: yeah

01:44:47 danielpbarron: the bastard one

01:44:47 mod6: yeah, totally different beast

01:44:57 asciilifeform: is some joker trying to euchre in on satoshi's goodies.

01:45:14 asciilifeform: one diddled node at a time.

01:45:39 mod6: but danielpbarron: good to know tho. thx.

01:46:18 mod6: we must get this patched RI repeatable (and it was before a few days ago) before we can cut release.

01:47:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so how doers this work, email to address, gz in attachment, clearsigned text as email body ?

01:47:21 asciilifeform: aha

01:47:33 asciilifeform: as described in http://therealbitcoin.org/mailman/listinfo/btc-dev

01:47:34 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DyUhn4 )

01:47:51 asciilifeform: attach foo.gz and foo.gz.sig

01:47:54 asciilifeform: for all foos

01:48:10 asciilifeform: body of msg is a cleartext signed pgpgram

01:48:27 asciilifeform: that's it (unless jurov has some other weird constraint in there we haven't yet discovered)

01:48:59 asciilifeform: (x.y.sig is an ascii-armoured detached sig of the usual variety)

01:51:49 asciilifeform: mod6, danielpbarron: in case this wasn't clear, my armv5 build still has the checkpoints (other than orphanage burner, only the basic patches are in)

01:52:11 asciilifeform: this is kinda why i was reluctant to distribute binaries - i want everyone to know precisely what they're eating

01:52:22 asciilifeform: and this is quite impossible with binaries

01:52:37 asciilifeform: (it's hard enough with src)

01:52:40 mod6: yeah, i wanna re-iterate here, all of the wedging issues ben and I had were /with/ checkpoints included. if we apply the rm_checkpoints patch, no longer a problem.

01:52:47 asciilifeform: aha

01:52:50 punkman: just sent a patch to the list, wonder if it'll go through

01:52:54 danielpbarron: i'm just running that one while i figure the compile out

01:53:06 danielpbarron: i have 2 more units to try other things on

01:53:17 mod6: 130k...will stop @ 150 and backup .bitcoin/*

01:53:17 asciilifeform: punkman: looks like not

01:53:39 asciilifeform: punkman: generally works within a few sec. when works

01:53:46 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/02/mtgox-parent-company-tibanne-enters-bankruptcy/

01:54:20 mircea_popescu: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000043.html << pretty sad.

01:54:21 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DyVf2L )

01:54:28 mod6: well, but also, i like i was saying, it's inconsistant. because TomServo has checkpoints included and he got through the gauntlet, and I did as well lastweek before the version patch.

01:54:29 mircea_popescu: anyway, it's sent, jurov let me know what i fucked up

01:54:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol, yours eaten too

01:55:37 mircea_popescu: i probably didn't do it right.

01:57:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i posted that earlier today. observe: if the hardseed list were actually used with any frequency, we would have noticed the scarcity of still-usable seeds therein ages ago

01:57:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as it is, it's a fallback after dns (snipped in patch i proposed last night) and irc mechanizms.

01:57:49 mircea_popescu: except... i kept saying it and saying it since ages ago ?

01:58:02 asciilifeform: i assume mircea_popescu did similar experimet.

01:58:03 asciilifeform: nt

01:58:21 mircea_popescu: always handwaved away by teh power rangers, but hey, you don't end up at the bottom of my shitlist by being responsive and responsible.

01:58:40 asciilifeform: i'm a bit curious how their seed blob is generated

01:59:06 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/02/no-such-labs-teases-future-developments/

01:59:07 mircea_popescu: all the people who act all shocked when gavin & co can't get enough credit to write a hello world in basic fail to recognize about two years of history trying to gently nudge, then educate, then eventually beat the idiots into some sort of shape

01:59:09 asciilifeform: one interesting way would be, resources permitting, a massive ipv4 post scan for 8333...

01:59:22 asciilifeform: *port

01:59:23 asciilifeform: scan

01:59:40 mircea_popescu: what resources do you need ?

01:59:42 punkman: https://www.shodan.io/search?query=port%3A8333

01:59:44 assbot: Shodan ... ( http://bit.ly/1DyW9vY )

01:59:46 mike_c: probably just culled from bitcoin-seeder, no?

01:59:48 punkman: fiddy bucks for shoddan

01:59:50 mircea_popescu: there's only 4bn ips

01:59:54 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo dear glub man

02:00:07 asciilifeform: teases, lol

02:00:23 BingoBoingo: So many teases

02:00:52 mircea_popescu: punkman you got an account ?

02:01:06 BingoBoingo: ;;ud glub

02:01:06 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you actually want to see this done, and have not yet done it?

02:01:06 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Glub&defid=4862930 | Tipping a narrow necked bottle of olive oil upside down in an attempt to pour a greater quantity which results in a "glub" sound as air fills the bottle replacing the  ...

02:01:08 *: asciilifeform surprised

02:01:16 asciilifeform: ud is wrong

02:01:19 asciilifeform: that's 'glug'

02:01:22 asciilifeform: ask any chemist!

02:01:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can i get some public/private separation here!

02:01:28 asciilifeform: lul

02:01:33 punkman: mircea_popescu: no

02:01:46 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it needs roughly same resources as a good spamatron

02:02:15 mircea_popescu: it doesn't really need as much.

02:02:45 decimation: so are there actually isps that filter port 8333 or was that just made up bullshit?

02:03:06 mircea_popescu: made up bs.

02:03:24 asciilifeform: decimation: i can't speak for the whole planet, but nothing i've used in usa filters incoming except in the sense of -all- incoming being denied by wireless providers

02:03:36 mircea_popescu: i mean, obviously, an idiot will exist for whatever idiocy. pretending that "transsexuals are hot now" is just trannie wet dreamin'.

02:03:45 asciilifeform: outgoing - port 25 typically dropped where i live

02:03:49 asciilifeform: on account of winblows/spam

02:04:18 asciilifeform: actually i must revise above. winblows 445 incoming is often zapped

02:04:21 asciilifeform: on account of idiots/smb

02:04:33 decimation: re: hedge funds & banks manipulating pr << one wonders if they are trying to jawbone bitcoin down in order to buy in, or kill?

02:05:07 asciilifeform: https://github.com/robertdavidgraham/masscan

02:05:08 assbot: robertdavidgraham/masscan · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1DyX2EU )

02:05:18 mircea_popescu: decimation the two aren't really distinct.

02:05:19 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah port 445 is amusing. I remember years ago when you could 'hack' by clicking 'show network neighborhood' on winblows

02:05:37 asciilifeform: decimation: esp. fun on defective WANs like cablemodem

02:06:05 decimation: I wonder if anyone has attempted to hack around with docsis at the physical layer

02:06:16 asciilifeform: decimation: answer's yes

02:06:39 asciilifeform: decimation: i'm aware of work re: 'uncapping' (cheat for bandwidth augment) but also proper pwnage of modems

02:06:55 asciilifeform: i can't say that i've kept up with the work on the subject

02:06:59 decimation: supposedly traffic on the wire is encrypted

02:07:06 decimation: but I don't know if the spec is open

02:07:40 asciilifeform: decimation: i haven't a clue, but generally a mass-produced gadget in usa -never- used proper public key crypto

02:07:47 decimation: ah is open http://www.cablelabs.com/specs/specification-search/?cat=docsis&scat=docsis-3-1

02:07:49 assbot: CableLabs » Search Specifications Library ... ( http://bit.ly/1DyXpPL )

02:08:05 asciilifeform: if uses civilized rsa at all, it is with ludicrously shrunken key lengths

02:11:07 decimation: apparently docsis 3.1 uses 2048-bit rsa for the device, 4096 for the root ca

02:11:19 mircea_popescu: that is not bad ?

02:11:24 asciilifeform: aha so ssl-style sc4m

02:11:46 asciilifeform: decimation: i can't be arsed to wade through spec, but didja find who generates key?

02:12:00 asciilifeform: i.e. is it baked in at factory

02:12:06 asciilifeform: or crapped out on powerup

02:12:06 decimation: device key?

02:12:09 asciilifeform: aha

02:12:47 asciilifeform: and, what gets used as the block cipher ?

02:12:51 asciilifeform: (aes? what length)

02:13:13 asciilifeform: !up Vexual

02:13:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 106657 @ 0.00038332 = 40.8838 BTC [+] {2}

02:14:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99203 @ 0.00039021 = 38.71 BTC [+]

02:17:46 asciilifeform: punkman: i specifically did not mean 'use publicly available site which may or may not actually scan in the way printed on the box, and may or may not censor or otherwise diddle shown results'

02:18:11 asciilifeform: fiddybucks or otherwise

02:19:12 asciilifeform: and once scanned, the logical next step is to query versions

02:19:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 185750 @ 0.00036981 = 68.6922 BTC [-] {3}

02:19:44 asciilifeform: and, if gargantuan pipes can be had, to query addr lists and then graph wizardry

02:20:07 asciilifeform: (e.g. find clusters, cliques, esp. ones with peculiar behaviour)

02:20:35 asciilifeform: for a less-than-gargantuan pipe, this scales down in the obvious statistical way.

02:21:13 mircea_popescu: aws is cheap enough.

02:21:17 asciilifeform: iirc, the latest phoundation edition is able to use ipv6

02:21:23 asciilifeform: but probably safe to ignore these

02:21:54 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not sure if aws will even put out raw packets

02:22:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see the linked 'mass scan' readme.

02:22:16 asciilifeform: (it uses custom tcp stack)

02:22:35 asciilifeform: and prefers to diddle a physical NIC directly, even.

02:22:57 asciilifeform: can also scan the old-fashioned way but then add two or three zeros to time required.

02:23:38 asciilifeform: also it absolutely has to happen from outside usa, for reasons

02:23:51 asciilifeform: (or in usa, but not own box)

02:24:14 BingoBoingo: https://twitter.com/elnathan/status/561822765402324994

02:24:16 assbot: Our thoughts are also with the measles-ravaged country America. I hope we are screening them before they come to Africa.

02:24:40 asciilifeform: lol!

02:25:25 *: BingoBoingo would not be surprised if traveler leaving US get quarentined for "Health Screenings" in the not to distant future.

02:25:30 BingoBoingo: If not already a thing.

02:26:11 Vexual: even if just to check if your dna is the same as when you arrived

02:26:37 asciilifeform: or what interesting antibodies you've come back with

02:26:45 Vexual: tru dat

02:27:17 asciilifeform: (for non-u.s. folks: the harshest searches are reserved for folks flying -in- at present)

02:27:43 punkman: asciilifeform: question is where to host massscan instance

02:28:02 asciilifeform: punkman: got a 10Gb/s pipe somewhere in asia ?

02:28:23 decimation: asciilifeform: docsis 3.1 uses aes-cbc 128-bit keys

02:28:25 asciilifeform: on physical (specifically not vps) machine

02:28:33 asciilifeform: decimation: ahahaha there we go

02:28:49 asciilifeform: toy crypto - it's not just a bad idea, it's the law! (TM)

02:29:54 decimation: ah "The CM MUST have two factory installed CM Device Certificates (and their associated private keys). The CM MUST have a CM Device Certificate installed that is issued from the new PKI. The CM MUST have a CM Device Certificate installed that is issued from the legacy PKI. The CM MUST have the same RSA public key in the CM Device Certificate as the RSA public key in the BPKM Attributes depending upon which CM Device Certificate is

02:29:56 decimation: used for authentication. The CM MUST use the CM Device Certificate issued from the new PKI when authenticating with a DOCSIS 3.1 or higher CMTS. The CM is to use the CM Device Certificate issued from the legacy PKI when authenticating with a DOCSIS 3.0 or older version of DOCSIS CMTS."

02:30:02 decimation: CM = "Cable Modem"

02:30:15 asciilifeform: -and- device keys generated in factory!

02:30:17 punkman: btw the patch that got lost in the tubes: http://dpaste.com/2EG2F1K.txt

02:30:19 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz1zav )

02:30:33 punkman: removes cpumining functions

02:30:34 asciilifeform: punkman: lemme guess, snipped miner

02:30:42 asciilifeform: punkman: i actually must confess that i disagree

02:30:47 decimation: don't worry little consumer, your device uses 'military grade crypto'

02:30:49 asciilifeform: this is, recall, a -reference- implementation

02:30:53 decimation: we'll keep the keys though thanks

02:31:01 asciilifeform: punkman: hence ought to contain an example of miner.

02:31:07 asciilifeform: even if it is worthless in practice

02:31:28 decimation: lol "The CM MUST be able to process certificate serial number values containing 20 octets or fewer. The CM MUST accept certificates that have serial numbers that are negative or zero."

02:31:29 asciilifeform: but idea being, if dropped on alpha centauri with the RI, ought to be able to start using bitcoin immediately

02:31:35 asciilifeform: this means miner is in.

02:31:58 Vexual: japanese torrentboxes are abundant

02:32:06 decimation: asciilifeform: surely the miner need not be part of the same binary turdball?

02:32:15 asciilifeform: Vexual: has to be a *physical* box

02:32:21 asciilifeform: decimation: sure, can be outside

02:32:24 Vexual: im sure they are

02:32:35 asciilifeform: decimation: but imho it is unwise to throw away satoshi's miner so lightly

02:32:47 decimation: aye, the cpu mining code can come with

02:33:03 asciilifeform: satoshi's miner is valuable for the same reason as the rest of that piece of shit

02:33:06 punkman: asciilifeform: yeah I'm not sure it should be removed, the foundation shall decide. it was good for practice anyway

02:33:16 asciilifeform: i.e. it was written before bitcoin was valuable.

02:33:35 decimation: asciilifeform: in general, docsis is a "reference implementation" of usg crypto, complete with fips standards etc.

02:33:43 asciilifeform: decimation: surprised ?

02:33:51 Vexual: if youre making a node box, youd better have somewhere to plug in a miner

02:33:55 decimation: well, the amusing part is the key escrow

02:34:09 asciilifeform: Vexual: well, 'Get Work'

02:35:36 asciilifeform: decimation: the funny part isn't any of this, but that wtf is the point, isp has plaintext of your packets necessarily, anyway

02:36:07 asciilifeform: the escrow can have -only one- purpose - to let nice folks at usg forge packets as 'provably' from your house.

02:36:13 asciilifeform: !s toilet tank

02:36:14 assbot: 9 results for 'toilet tank' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=toilet+tank

02:36:31 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah presumably if they wanted the packets they would just squeeze the ip stack at the isp

02:36:43 asciilifeform: ergo it is for -writing- not reading.

02:36:46 asciilifeform: reading - already trivial

02:36:46 decimation: well, there's another agenda here too

02:37:00 decimation: cable companies don't want mickey mouse crypto to cause some kind of pr incident

02:37:13 asciilifeform: there is also the matter of guaranteeing that the equipment cannot be repurposed for any sane use

02:37:17 asciilifeform: e.g., abroad

02:37:21 decimation: your traffic is for the eyes of those who are authorized to have it

02:37:37 asciilifeform: ^ that comes from isp tap, no need for diddled modems

02:38:18 decimation: aye. but the problem with this system is that they have put all their eggs in the manufacturer's basket

02:38:23 decimation: who keeps that keylist?

02:38:26 asciilifeform: there's another aspect, also

02:38:33 asciilifeform: there is a tradition in usa of 'deniable' snooping

02:38:52 asciilifeform: where the tap is placed surprisingly close downstream to the 'last mile'

02:39:11 BingoBoingo: http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/heartbleed-in-rust << implied lolz

02:39:12 assbot: heartbleed in rust ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz2WFT )

02:40:39 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> can also scan the old-fashioned way but then add two or three zeros to time required. << yes, but cheap enough :)

02:40:55 asciilifeform: decimation: i wonder if the device keys have even been 'phuctored' ever.

02:41:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm not certain that a scan taking >year is worth much

02:43:08 mircea_popescu: eh fuck em, cloud speeds double every half year.

02:43:20 mircea_popescu: trivial on this basis to show it will be < 1 year

02:43:25 asciilifeform: l0l

02:43:26 mircea_popescu: no matter what other numbers are involved.

02:44:17 mircea_popescu: don't lol mr, my work on this topic has been reviewed by internet csseconomists and other lolexperts. plus oleg leganza.

02:45:40 asciilifeform: decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-08-2014#813119 << old thread, relevant

02:45:40 assbot: Logged on 28-08-2014 03:56:01; asciilifeform: there is also the tired, old, mundane 'there is a kilo of cocaine in your toilet tank' theorem.

02:49:09 asciilifeform: there is a whole not-very-well-hidden world of what one might call 'cardinal richelieu' ('...six words of the honest man!') infrastructure, waiting for command from usg to send 'd34th thr34tz!!!1111!!!' to some crowned head that are Provably!111! from your house, when the time comes

02:50:04 mircea_popescu: kinda why one should not waste time.

02:50:08 asciilifeform: !up Vexual

02:50:16 mircea_popescu: send'em while you still can.

02:50:40 asciilifeform: oh it'll send by itself, lol

02:50:55 asciilifeform: with finest grammar, from content farms in philippines

02:51:22 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/02/ubs-groups-cio-wants-to-throw-bitcoin-under-the-buss/

02:51:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check out this funny happenstance : once bb dropped the philippines bomb ? 20 mb thread suddenly of no further interest, off first page etc.

02:51:47 mircea_popescu: the best part of tradecraft is that it is so god damned hard to do well.

02:52:00 asciilifeform: see also the reddit incident

02:52:03 asciilifeform: same deal, no?

02:52:34 mircea_popescu: it's just this font of lulz, like, hm... quintessentially american to me.

02:52:37 mircea_popescu: lemme dig up that woman.

02:53:01 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2010/literara-este-grea/ << julia a moore.

02:53:02 assbot: Literara este grea pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz528X )

02:53:16 *: asciilifeform wonders whether, if mircea_popescu offered a bounty, one of the flunkies would walk in with 'smoking gun' dirt

02:53:18 mircea_popescu: this was a simple woman who couldn't write, that infatuated herself with the notion that she can produce poetry

02:53:22 mircea_popescu: was a great amusement for a little bit

02:53:41 mircea_popescu: but she persevered. the exact manners in which she persevered are, to me, the best summary of the american spirit that can be had.

02:53:58 asciilifeform: i was expecting a reference to the maths girl

02:54:01 mircea_popescu: a) claimed that the poor arrangement / band / etc were the reason people "didn't like" her 2nd performance.

02:54:36 mircea_popescu: the move from "laughed their ass at me" to "didn't like" ? blaming the band ? here : http://fraudsters.com/2015/have-some-chocolate-cake/#comment-111925

02:54:36 assbot: Have some chocolate cake. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz5gge )

02:55:09 mircea_popescu: but then, for it doesn't end there! then she confronted teh comedy goldminers by saying that "they each paid a quarter to see a fool, but she's been paid 50 bux and sees a roomfull of fools"

02:55:19 mircea_popescu: right ? TOTALLY TURNED IT ON THEM WITH HER WITS

02:55:52 mircea_popescu: but then!!11 for it has a c. then her husband , who you know, was hoping to be able to enjoy a drink in a bar without being laughed into the ground sometime before he dies completely forbade any further writings

02:55:58 mircea_popescu: under pain of beatings and so forth.

02:56:11 mircea_popescu: so she stopped writing ~poetry~. and instead wrote a miserable novel

02:56:25 mircea_popescu: about a farmer. who was in debt. who was married to a marry sue, whose published novel saves the farm.

02:57:05 mircea_popescu: it's this particular concoction of the forcible solipsism of crusoe with the narcissism of a fifteen year old boy that grew up alone among cows, with the desperation of a dying beggar on the dark side of the moon.

02:57:37 mircea_popescu: and if you look at the place's history... those wolves that ate boston... their teeth are still visible in the striations of the skins of these people.

02:57:39 asciilifeform: ^ usa in one page

02:58:14 asciilifeform: !b 16

02:58:16 assbot: Last 16 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2AWRM6H.txt )

03:02:25 decimation: decimation: i wonder if the device keys have even been 'phuctored' ever. << "CMs MUST store and maintain the CM Device Certificate RSA private/public key pairs. The CM MUST store the CM Device Certificate private keys in a manner that deters unauthorized disclosure and modification. Also, CMs SHOULD prevent debugger tools from reading the CM Device Certificate private key in production devices by restricting or blocking physical

03:02:26 decimation: access to memory containing this key."

03:03:37 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934517.0 seems you've been superseded

03:03:37 assbot: Introducing new "the only official foundation of Bitcoin" [sign up as president] ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz6wQr )

03:04:04 hanbot: <mircea_popescu> it's this particular concoction of the forcible solipsism of crusoe with the narcissism of a fifteen year old boy that grew up alone among cows, with the desperation of a dying beggar on the dark side of the moon. << ahahaha best review evar

03:04:32 *: mircea_popescu is kind-of surprised anyone agrees

03:04:43 mircea_popescu: i thought this was highly personal and entirely idiosyncratic a view

03:07:36 asciilifeform: 'We, the true "only official foundation of Bitcoin" declare ourselves the new leaders. Our main goal will be hookers and blow for everyone! Our main concern will be beer and Bitcoin of course. We will represent the bitcoin community from now on in the correct way to the outside world and all important people need to bow to us and bribe us to get a foot in the door. It will also be lucrative for the people in power to infiltrat

03:07:36 asciilifeform: e us so they can be the true leaders of the bitcoin community too.' << win

03:10:06 mircea_popescu: ikr?

03:12:44 asciilifeform: 257458.

03:13:13 mircea_popescu: http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/316/303/2ae.jpg << for the record, satoshi also co-authored the original not-a-mary-sue

03:13:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz8ekX )

03:14:56 pete_dushenski: cazalla "negative media attention Bitcoin reguarly receives in the media" << regularly

03:16:44 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

03:18:01 mircea_popescu: http://qntra.net/2015/02/ubs-groups-cio-wants-to-throw-bitcoin-under-the-buss/ << lol ubs wants a "blockchain technology" separated from bitcoin

03:18:02 assbot: UBS Group's CIO Wants To Throw Bitcoin Under The Buss | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz8Xm4 )

03:18:14 mircea_popescu: there you go, who asked if to own or to burn ? to this.

03:18:20 asciilifeform: wasn't that an old idiocy ?

03:18:23 asciilifeform: at least a few months?

03:18:27 mircea_popescu: if ubs wasn't so very bankrupt, it'd even matter more.

03:18:33 asciilifeform: i distinctly recall hearing of it before

03:18:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nobody lost his job as ubs cio by doing old idiocy

03:18:44 cazalla: asciilifeform, this one is new but UBS have mentioned it before

03:18:49 cazalla: pete_dushenski, ty

03:18:54 pete_dushenski: np

03:19:00 decimation: didn't some ubs guy jump out a window a few years ago

03:19:18 asciilifeform: aha

03:19:23 asciilifeform: famous street-pizza kitchen

03:19:57 decimation: I'm thinking of zurich insurance

03:20:22 Vexual: if anyone patents blockchain, its because fuck

03:21:25 Vexual: einstein would be sitting there, drunk as fuck in austria, thinking, "nah thats the same shit"

03:21:30 asciilifeform: let'em patent sky, earth, sea

03:21:41 asciilifeform: own arses.

03:22:12 mircea_popescu: ideally they patent the particular way in which they suck my cock.

03:22:34 mircea_popescu: so there's no confusion if i'm gettingserviced by oliver bussmann or by his mom.

03:23:08 Vexual: lol

03:24:12 asciilifeform: 'the bus, mmm, broke down, mm. -we're- the bus now.' --- 'bangbus'

03:26:22 decimation: asciilifeform: re: 'drugs in toilet' << the simple version is 'ur bezzlars be our bezzlars now!' http://dailycaller.com/2015/01/23/gun-businesses-seek-ways-to-survive-while-denied-basic-business-services/

03:26:23 assbot: How The Federal Government Puts The Screws Into Gun Businesses | The Daily Caller ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dz9PHf )

03:26:30 decimation: "The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee released a report last month showing the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) targeted gun dealers and other businesses like payday lenders and pawn shops as illegal operations, and pressured banks to halt dealing with these businesses. The administration’s program is now known as Operation Choke Point, which is run by the Departments of Justice and Treasury."

03:26:51 mircea_popescu: i can;t wait for when it's not about the block size but about the total bitcoins, and it's noit about "saving africa" but about saving ubs, and the howlers are not on the forum but on every tv screen,

03:27:08 mircea_popescu: telling them to get fucked THEN will be much lulzier.

03:27:57 mircea_popescu: decimation pity they don't have the backbone (and leadership) to start a cash only program, and publicly denounce banking as a scam.

03:28:14 mircea_popescu: then start shooting police officers coming to steal the cash.

03:28:19 mircea_popescu: make a steak out of the whole thing.

03:28:53 Vexual: ayo

03:29:25 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see the old threads re: nontriviality of hooking up to cash world from scratch

03:29:45 decimation: usg ought to be careful with pushing this kind of shit, you don't want the little people to become confused about banking

03:29:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: e.g., everybody in the store would need to move to that planet

03:30:09 asciilifeform: and someone would still have to come up with electronic bezzlars to pay tax with - or the tax squads descend

03:30:17 mircea_popescu: the nontriviality there is a little ofsometing else. the thought process of "she's a total bitch, let me try and work with her nevertheless" is responsible for more unhappy marriages than any other thing.

03:30:27 Vexual: i like the art deco font, reminds me of a time i can't possibly remember

03:30:27 asciilifeform: well that's usg.

03:30:40 mircea_popescu: not the right approach. bitch talks back, she gets slapped. she starts crying, she gets beaten. she screams, she gets cut loose.

03:30:57 Vexual: and a days folding money might fit in the back pocket

03:30:58 mircea_popescu: government is the bitch. the slightest getting in your way must be met with disproportionately escalated response until it either dies or gives up.

03:31:29 mircea_popescu: this is how small government is both obtained and maintained, and this is how a country that actually works is preserved.

03:32:08 mircea_popescu: and fwiw a principle i studiously observed throughout my life and in all aspects so far. cop wants to bitch about tickets, his department can enjoy thirty eight different lawsuits.

03:32:15 mircea_popescu: and it goes from there.

03:32:17 decimation: in this metaphor, us citizens are henpecked betas?

03:32:19 asciilifeform: 'maintain small government' is like 'maintain small tumour.'

03:32:24 mircea_popescu: decimation quite.

03:32:38 Vexual: do you pay the tickets for your limo mp?

03:32:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform more like "maintaining your penis in a state where it's enjoyable without ruining your life"

03:32:52 mircea_popescu: Vexual i dun limo.

03:33:10 Vexual: walking is good

03:33:33 decimation: the problem is that the vector usg uses is civilization-destroying. essentially "obey the law" becomes more of a farce until it becomes a laughing matter

03:33:44 asciilifeform: 'I can?t use Amazon, because they prohibit the majority of my products.' -- plenty of small-arms related junk on 'amazon'

03:33:45 mircea_popescu: shoot it.

03:33:51 asciilifeform: just not the boomsticks themselves (regulated)

03:33:56 asciilifeform: nor gunpowder.

03:34:18 mircea_popescu: the usg has no priviledged relationship with the law. it's a poor mockery thereof.

03:34:28 mircea_popescu: we've made more good law here in the past year than the us congress in the past decade.

03:35:10 asciilifeform: 'Karrasch also found he could not use the popular accounting software QuickBooks to pay receipts because of the nature of his business.' --- enjoy 'the cloud' !

03:35:23 mircea_popescu: heh.

03:35:34 mircea_popescu: wait. you could buy a kalash from karrasch ?!

03:35:46 kakobrekla: https://i.imgur.com/6EaciKa.png

03:35:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dzbblv )

03:37:14 decimation: '“Google could be doing business with firearms businesses. The thing is they won’t because of their stance [against firearms]. I can’t advertise on Google. I can’t advertise on Facebook. I can’t use Amazon, because they prohibit the majority of my products. I closed down that account over a year ago, and I still get notices from them, regardless of the emails I sent to them telling them that I’m not selling with them.”

03:37:22 BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Win

03:37:32 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla ahahaha scammer cuts loose already introducing new scam ?

03:37:35 mircea_popescu: jesus these idiots.

03:37:44 mircea_popescu: this may be one of the first ones that has made a profit.

03:37:49 mircea_popescu: in a year or two

03:37:54 kakobrekla: quite amazing

03:37:54 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

03:38:05 BingoBoingo: "wrecking ball"

03:38:38 mircea_popescu: decimation see, this is the whine of an idiot.

03:39:00 mircea_popescu: he should start doing actually roi able advertising. create a festival. say in the place where they stole that guy's cattle grazing.

03:39:11 mircea_popescu: give people free ammo. sell guns for cash only.

03:39:19 mircea_popescu: make a point about how the enemy IS THE ENEMY

03:39:35 mircea_popescu: stop pussy-fucking-footing all around the broken, shattered remains of a thing that no longer exists.

03:39:37 asciilifeform: cash << guess who'll be waiting for the cash car on the interstate.

03:39:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform << <mircea_popescu> then start shooting police officers coming to steal the cash.

03:40:36 mircea_popescu: what exactly are they gonna do ? feed you for the next 30 years ? big whoop.

03:40:47 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your advice makes the same amount of sense as solzhenitsyn's

03:40:53 asciilifeform: which is to say, a good bit of

03:41:02 asciilifeform: but who will take it.

03:41:05 mircea_popescu: i dun recall what that was ?

03:41:14 asciilifeform: !s solzhenitsyn axe

03:41:14 assbot: 8 results for 'solzhenitsyn axe' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=solzhenitsyn+axe

03:41:18 mircea_popescu: a yeah.

03:41:31 decimation: http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/surveillance-national-rifle-association-cars-license-plates/2015/01/28/id/621159/ << " The National Rifle Association is investigating reports that a leading federal agent proposed using license-plate readers to scan vehicles at gun shows as part of a gun-trafficking crackdown."

03:41:33 assbot: US Car-Spying Plans Included Parked at Gun Shows, WSJ Says ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dzcfpo )

03:41:33 mircea_popescu: people need to seriously stop worrying about imaginary hobgoblins.

03:41:56 mircea_popescu: so what's the problem, if half a million people shoot half a million cops, they're going to build you a special country club and keep you there with all your friends ?

03:41:58 mircea_popescu: o noes!

03:42:15 Vexual: i log numberplaltes

03:42:27 asciilifeform: half a million people shoot half a million cops << lol

03:42:42 asciilifeform: are there even half a million in north a.

03:42:43 mircea_popescu: takes < 1 man year.

03:42:51 mircea_popescu: ie, less than the fucking effort to build the cardano.

03:42:53 asciilifeform: this is basically solzhenitsyn's theorem

03:42:53 Vexual: noone to call

03:43:02 asciilifeform: and the reason why 1 machinegunner can guard 500 prisoners

03:43:53 mircea_popescu: heh. people keep derping about the 1% but don't really want to be teh 1% eh ?

03:44:22 mircea_popescu: fine. just as long as we all stop pretending like this is "impossible" and we understand that it's quite possible, perfectly feasible and practically effective.

03:44:31 mircea_popescu: then it can be a "but i dun want to" and everyone can go home happy.

03:44:56 asciilifeform: 'The DEA has designed this program to assist with locating, identifying, and seizing bulk currency, guns, and other illicit contraband moving along the southwest border and throughout the United States.'

03:45:07 asciilifeform: ( http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/cars-database-Drug-Enforcement-Administration-license-plates/2015/01/27/id/620928 )

03:45:09 assbot: US Spying On Millions of Cars on Major Highways: Wall Street Journal ... ( http://bit.ly/1DzcRLO )

03:45:28 decimation: mircea_popescu: but you said the same plan would not have worked for Louis XVI

03:45:29 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja ever have a ru physics textbook with the jumping chinese example ?

03:45:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform fraid not. decimation quote me ?

03:46:08 asciilifeform: 'if the chinese were to jump from stools 1 metre heigh upon hearing the signal over the radio...'

03:46:59 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the rebellion thing is not a cowardice problem as such but actually a byzantine generals problem.

03:47:06 mircea_popescu: 'how many chinese women woud orgasm ' ?

03:47:16 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919421

03:47:16 assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 05:34:16; mircea_popescu: decimation suppose you were king, and ordered the leningrad of paris. what then ?

03:47:20 asciilifeform: suicidal courage is but one solution to the byzantine generals conundrum

03:47:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but the principal problem of the byznatines was their cowardice

03:47:35 asciilifeform: and not an especially effective solution

03:47:47 mircea_popescu: decimation you see the difference between being king and being, allegedly, a nation ?

03:47:48 asciilifeform: as it does not guarantee that the 'generals' march simultaneously or in any useful pattern at all

03:48:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pattern is actually not required in insurection. determination only requisite ingredient, carries day.

03:48:32 asciilifeform: usa is a proverbial 'glass house'

03:48:35 mircea_popescu: decimation they're in fact the opposite sides of the same coin.

03:48:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform everything ever seems one thing until it isn't. you know ?

03:48:48 asciilifeform: in which few, other than obvious idiots and easily controlled orcs, care to 'throw stones'

03:49:30 asciilifeform: how many folks in usa can survive a month w/out 'business as usual' (mains, fuel, water, just-in-time deliveries to local 'food' shops)

03:49:42 mircea_popescu: so then why so many peoples in the usa bitch!

03:49:55 asciilifeform: same reason a fella sitting on the stake 'bitches'

03:50:07 mircea_popescu: yeah well it gotta be one or the other.

03:50:18 asciilifeform: sitting on a sharpened pine tree fsckinghurts

03:50:19 mircea_popescu: because the aliens aren't about to land with platinum visas for everyone.

03:50:30 asciilifeform: who can disagree.

03:50:40 mircea_popescu: but i guess we can wait :D

03:51:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, to revisit this point : the byzantine generals problem is specifically and exactly mathematically formalised cowardice.

03:51:48 mircea_popescu: this is what cowardice is : the consideration of meta.

03:52:02 mircea_popescu: you see a nail go "don't hit me unless i actually go in the wall" ?

03:52:14 asciilifeform: so, let's take the malcontents of europe circa 1849.

03:52:16 mircea_popescu: fuck you, you're a nail. whether you drive or bend, you're getting hit.

03:52:20 cazalla: au beginning to cut interest rates today

03:52:22 asciilifeform: more courage would have made a difference ?

03:52:27 asciilifeform: or - coordination.

03:52:32 asciilifeform: and knowing what the hell they're doing

03:52:39 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you mean after the austrian monarch was deposed ? in a negotiated peace ?

03:52:54 mircea_popescu: everyone got paid in 1848.

03:53:28 cazalla: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=AUD&to=USD just jumped off a cliff too lol

03:53:29 assbot: XE.com - AUD/USD Chart ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dze1XE )

03:53:29 asciilifeform: '48 rather

03:53:46 mircea_popescu: cazalla may be good for exports :D

03:55:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform were you thinking 1907 ? i dun see the 1848 angle in any light.

03:56:19 cazalla: mircea_popescu, maybe, but i read demand for au minerals has tanked too

03:56:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: thinking of the mostly failed revolts in fr, elsewhere

03:57:27 decimation: the problem from the rebel's point of view - does his rebellion tend to empower gentlemen planters, or lenin, danton, and their ilk?

04:03:59 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000044.html

04:04:00 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DzfJYX )

04:07:00 asciilifeform: ^ i would much like to see that mega-portscan happen. it is really the only sane way to generate a proper seedlist.

04:07:06 asciilifeform: random selection of nodes from whole planet.

04:07:41 asciilifeform: zap whatever compartments and cliques may have formed naturally (or unnaturally...) in the graph.

04:08:22 asciilifeform: or are we to believe that a protocol carried 100% in cleartext, on unique tcp port - is not being molested ?

04:08:52 asciilifeform: (proofofwork is not a magical pill against every conceivable form of molestation, only the immediately profitable forms)

04:11:41 asciilifeform: !up Vexual

04:15:34 asciilifeform: note that enemy has all the portscans he can ever wish for.

04:15:38 asciilifeform: enough to eat with arse.

04:16:10 asciilifeform: whereas normal people are stuck wondering how many public btc nodes, and afaik there is not a believable public number anywhere

04:16:30 asciilifeform: nor any believable public data on versions.

04:16:59 Vexual: no versions, only talk

04:17:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not grasp how one could see the 1848 revolts as failed.

04:17:30 mircea_popescu: decimation the error is to imagine lenin, dalton and gentlemen planters are some sort of ilk.

04:17:37 mircea_popescu: they're not.

04:17:51 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how is a portscan sane ?

04:18:01 mircea_popescu: no, the sane way is wot signed seed list.

04:18:06 asciilifeform: well yes

04:18:09 asciilifeform: but derived how?

04:18:21 *: asciilifeform did not suggest that a node carry out the scan!

04:18:35 mircea_popescu: derived by "here is the ip of my pogo"

04:18:39 asciilifeform: but that it be performed, now and again, as a scientific enterprise

04:19:00 mircea_popescu: sure, but a scientific enterprise in no way related to generating seedlists.

04:19:13 asciilifeform: ip of my pogo << that'd mean having these identify selves to one another specifically

04:19:20 mircea_popescu: sure.

04:19:27 mircea_popescu: it's what deedbot is for, among other things

04:19:30 asciilifeform: and introduces a central point of choke

04:19:35 mircea_popescu: nope.

04:19:38 asciilifeform: (to whom, precisely, are they to speak?)

04:19:44 mircea_popescu: hm?

04:19:55 asciilifeform: say i were to prepare a crate of pogos today

04:20:02 mircea_popescu: ok.

04:20:02 asciilifeform: whence should they look for seeds ?

04:20:03 decimation: asciilifeform: looks like we are gonna have to invent our own dns :/

04:20:11 mircea_popescu: they should look for seeds in their config file.

04:20:19 asciilifeform: but what is to be found there ?

04:20:30 decimation: asciilifeform: blockchain telegraphy?

04:20:31 asciilifeform: i will not know where the contents of the crate will be plugged in

04:20:38 asciilifeform: decimation: that needs a blockchain!

04:20:41 asciilifeform: decimation: catch22

04:20:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not your job to know!

04:21:01 asciilifeform: well, when filling the crate, what is to be placed in the configs?

04:21:01 mircea_popescu: whosoever wants to run one looks at our list, or if not at whatever list he feels like.

04:21:06 mircea_popescu: nothing.

04:21:14 asciilifeform: so these are not working nodes out of the box.

04:21:18 asciilifeform: should have specified.

04:21:24 decimation: should the nodes ship with a 'cannon' blockchain?

04:21:30 asciilifeform: canon?

04:21:38 Vexual: torrent of data

04:22:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, they are working out of the box.

04:22:21 mircea_popescu: if you buy a coffee grinder it does not work out of the box unless pre-filled with beans ?!

04:22:25 asciilifeform: to backtrack, my earlier suggestion was to ship them with a basic list (a few hundred addrs)

04:22:30 asciilifeform: derived via port scan.

04:22:36 mircea_popescu: fuck democracy.

04:22:36 asciilifeform: i.e. random sampling of planet

04:22:50 asciilifeform: not for 'democracy' but for 'nothing-up-me-sleeve'

04:22:54 mircea_popescu: the fact that someone has a port open matters about as much as the fact someone scribbled something on github/wikipedia/we

04:22:56 asciilifeform: (term of art from crypto world)

04:23:10 asciilifeform: it's like collecting random sample of water from sewer

04:23:18 asciilifeform: sometimes - done

04:23:26 mircea_popescu: there is no burden that i can conceive where one's held to ship with prefilled config files.

04:23:40 mircea_popescu: irrespective of what the consumer may have come to expect.

04:23:43 asciilifeform: well then user has to fill it up.

04:23:54 mircea_popescu: uness you're shipping them to your mother, in which casse, put there w/e you want to put there.

04:23:58 mircea_popescu: of course.

04:24:01 asciilifeform: for some reason i thought we were still thinking in the 'gifts to gurlz at parties' train of thought

04:24:05 Vexual: most noders will ahve interetz

04:24:06 mircea_popescu: we were, yes.

04:24:16 mircea_popescu: so you expected to get gurls address and ship directly ?

04:24:22 asciilifeform: lol

04:24:24 mircea_popescu: well ?

04:25:06 *: asciilifeform is a firm student of 'the best machine is no machine' and like the solution of not even having a solution to the 'what seeds' thing

04:25:23 asciilifeform: however this leaves the 'what seeds' question open still.

04:25:34 mircea_popescu: the solution is perfectly there. here's the hole. here's a peg you may put in there. or else stick your own cock or a bottle of coke

04:25:49 asciilifeform: but there are 1000 holes, and one cock

04:25:56 mircea_popescu: why one cock again ?

04:26:12 pete_dushenski: scoop for superbowl viewers at home: http://www.contravex.com/2015/02/03/meta-metastasis-or-how-a-dancing-shark-jumped-the-shark/

04:26:13 assbot: Meta-metastasis, or how a dancing shark jumped the shark. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/16p47gY )

04:26:14 asciilifeform: well, perhaps not one, but... 7? (therealbitcoinfoundation)

04:26:23 mircea_popescu: ok... ?

04:26:30 pete_dushenski: did anyone else see right through the meta-sharks ?

04:26:35 asciilifeform: but presumably we aren't trying to build a closed parallel universe

04:26:43 asciilifeform: with only our nodes

04:26:59 pete_dushenski: and now dinner time, cheerio!

04:27:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not specifically. we don't really care.

04:27:13 mircea_popescu: once bootstrapped nodes talk to nodes, what.

04:27:28 Vexual: https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/?pli=1#inbox/14b4daf267842035

04:27:33 Vexual: dang

04:27:36 asciilifeform: l0l

04:27:50 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y0svixmS4w

04:28:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: outside-world addrs will not spontaneously appear in a cliquegraph

04:28:22 mircea_popescu: vice-versa.

04:28:41 asciilifeform: so we sit, waiting for all-comers to plug in? sure.

04:28:42 mircea_popescu: clique appears in outside world.

04:28:48 mircea_popescu: that's the idea isn't it

04:28:49 asciilifeform: ^ werks

04:28:56 mircea_popescu: an actual backbone for the bitcoin txn

04:29:13 mircea_popescu: i don't see the letter dns servers perceive any need for putting my fucking ip in their list anywhere.

04:29:34 *: asciilifeform gets idea

04:29:50 mircea_popescu: it's lightweight, large and dependable. all the qualities the dns letters don't actually have.

04:29:58 mircea_popescu: well, they are dependable, but still.

04:30:09 asciilifeform: 'muhammed will not go to mountain, let mountain go to muhammed'

04:30:34 mod6: basically wedged at 168,000: just waiting for it to error out.

04:30:38 mircea_popescu: o.O

04:30:46 mircea_popescu: this is pretty fucking weird mod6

04:31:10 mod6: yeah. really weird.

04:32:53 Vexual: ascilifeform: you'll consult satoshi?

04:35:24 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-YCwARjLLA

04:39:16 decimation: even if we want to start a backbone of little pogos, it won't be easy to keep track of ips

04:39:26 decimation: how many of pay for static ip services?

04:39:40 mircea_popescu: think about it : if it won't be easy to keep track of ips it follows it's no longer a chokepoint.

04:39:53 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rDWEMZG0lE

04:40:21 mircea_popescu: it really is better designed dns.

04:41:37 mircea_popescu: (also bear in mind these aren't really supposed to ever power down)

04:41:57 Vexual: duly noted

04:42:43 mircea_popescu: an' with that, i bid you a good night!

04:44:33 decimation: perhaps the node can walk jurov's turdatron for specially marked (and signed) emails

04:45:25 asciilifeform: decimation: turdatron is a central point of failure

04:45:47 mod6: this is strange, last like 5-6 times i got wedged at 168,000 it errored out pretty quickly (like the snippit in the matrix doc), but now, taking a good while...

04:45:53 *: trinque settles in for a few hours of deedbot hacking

04:46:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has the right idea - deliberately underspecify the seed list

04:46:15 asciilifeform: those of us who choose to run public nodes - can

04:46:46 decimation: do nodes query other node's connections?

04:46:59 asciilifeform: decimation: as part of the traditional protocol, yes

04:47:08 decimation: ah, well that might work then

04:53:37 decimation: !down decimation

04:55:24 trinque: maybe when the deturdulation is all said and done, the act of programming against the thing can be improved as well

04:56:21 mod6: still no error?! wth

04:56:47 trinque: select id from transaction_output except select output_id from transaction_input

04:57:09 trinque: magic! the dream of the 70s!

05:07:40 asciilifeform: trinque: this is after nubbins` prints the book

05:07:47 trinque: sure

05:08:12 mod6: well, sooner or later this turd is gonna fail

05:08:19 trinque: I look at this api and say "surely there are not this number of core abstractions..."

05:08:21 trinque: the fuck is this?

05:08:27 mod6: i'll put together some log snippits when it does

05:08:36 trinque: rdbms is for modeling problems; best tool there is for that

05:09:32 trinque: these "key value stores" are a joke

05:09:54 trinque: "sorry database, I don't know the data I want by name. You're supposed to tell me that..."

05:10:27 trinque: I think I'll just give deedbot an out to spend and when it's depleted it's done, insert another please

05:10:33 asciilifeform: trinque: chisel is not simply a very thin and unpleasant hammer.

05:10:47 asciilifeform: no matter how many times abused

05:10:54 trinque: the problem with that approach is splits

05:11:10 trinque: *the problem with not recalculating all spendable outs each time and then picking one

05:11:26 trinque: which, is one confirmation even enough to deal with that?

05:11:42 trinque: should I be de-publishing things that ended up timestamped on a dropped fork?

05:12:06 trinque: asciilifeform: rdbms is the surgical one, I hope

05:13:19 trinque: now I understand why some idiot did a "crypto coin in couchdb"

05:13:33 trinque: not like couchdb is any worse than any other of these

05:15:18 trinque: turns out a lot of the code we wrap these kv stores in looks a lot like shitty constraints, shitty transactions, shitty referential integrity, etc

05:15:43 trinque: but that should be reinvented each time because speed

05:16:46 fluffypony: trinque: the worst is when they create a "fast, distributed key-value store" and then a couple of years later they get pressured into adding "fully atomic transactions" which ends up needing consistency, and so that becomes "full ACID support", and then fast-forward a few years and you have them inventing a "SQL-like query language"

05:17:01 fluffypony: and they're two steps away from having re-invented an RDBMS

05:17:05 trinque: fluffypony: yeah, the things ether are useless or are shitty SQS

05:17:09 trinque: *SQL

05:17:53 trinque: and when you're working on something that potentially involves the wealth of goddamn kings...

05:18:16 trinque: lets not invent a database poorly as part of the problem

05:18:27 fluffypony: "but WaffleDB is so much faster than mysql!" - which is a great argument if you're counting pageviews or storing log entries

05:18:43 *: asciilifeform misread as 'Waffen DB'

05:18:44 trinque: heh I like the line from the "mongo is webscale thing"

05:19:16 trinque: about writing to /dev/null because obviously that'd be insanely fast

05:19:36 fluffypony: 100% in-memory, never spools to disk

05:19:47 fluffypony: just don't ever restart

05:20:06 trinque: the whole document store thing too, that's just looking at the net, accepting it as gospel

05:20:15 trinque: then saying well fuck, since documents are right, obviously, lets do that

05:20:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 252150 @ 0.000391 = 98.5907 BTC [+] {4}

05:20:40 fluffypony: asciilifeform: "waffle" is my go-to when I talk hypotheticals...WaffleCoin, WaffleOS, WaffleDB

05:20:43 mod6: i guess maybe one other time it ran a long time like this until it ran out of memory and blew its brains out

05:21:04 trinque: fluffypony: there'll be one eventually

05:21:09 fluffypony: no doubt

05:21:13 fluffypony: then I'll have to stop using the name

05:21:16 trinque: "inventing" a new "database" is just like farting out an altcoin these days

05:21:37 trinque: nevermind the 40 years of research that culminated in modern rdbms

05:21:45 asciilifeform: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt

05:21:46 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1D86C3s )

05:21:47 asciilifeform: ^ interesting

05:21:54 fluffypony: at least when they "invent" a new database they can invent silly architecture without caring about cryptography...the amount of retarded cryptography in the altcoin space is scary

05:21:56 *: mod6 looks

05:22:02 asciilifeform: phoundation claims their 512 hardseeds are selected therein

05:22:03 asciilifeform: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/7b879d3493e5b51c60522f71657941bd62e29334/contrib/seeds/README.md

05:22:05 assbot: bitcoin/README.md at 7b879d3493e5b51c60522f71657941bd62e29334 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1D86D7A )

05:24:08 mod6: still some 32400 nodes out there

05:24:16 trinque: fluffypony: when I finally learned lisp it was the same feeling towards every other scripty language

05:24:50 trinque: who in the fuck let these bastards steal fire from the gods, and why wasn't I told about this?

05:25:34 asciilifeform: !b 2

05:25:35 assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0FPDE7Y.txt )

05:25:47 fluffypony: lol

05:27:03 *: mod6 bed

05:27:38 fluffypony: http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-elite-meet-secret-island-bilderberg-style-retreat/

05:27:39 assbot: Bitcoin Elite to Gather on Secret Island for Bilderberg-Style Retreat ... ( http://bit.ly/1D87w03 )

05:27:47 fluffypony: lulzy

05:34:04 trinque: fluffypony: bilderberg is right

05:34:13 trinque: why don't they just invite the phoundation to the real one

05:35:05 fluffypony: lol

05:35:11 fluffypony: they're not cool enough

05:35:32 trinque: they can discuss how best to attach bitcoin to the side of a sinking ship

05:36:02 fluffypony: BarnacleCoin

05:36:09 fluffypony: no no wait, BarnacleChains

05:37:05 trinque: heh

06:02:25 asciilifeform: jurov: for shame.

06:02:41 asciilifeform: jurov: i post a mega-study of phoundation's nodes and your turdatron swallows it

06:02:45 asciilifeform: jurov: without so much as a burp.

06:04:06 asciilifeform: now,

06:04:07 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/this_is_lame.txt

06:04:09 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/16ps5J3 )

06:04:24 asciilifeform: ^ because who knows when he'll wake up

06:12:57 asciilifeform: !up Vexual

06:13:16 *: asciilifeform to sleep

06:15:04 Vexual: gnight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XklVahMDm1A

06:32:32 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g12f7uDIGZc

06:41:40 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCGbNFFqxS4

09:09:57 punkman: there's this robocaller that waits for me to pick up the phone and say something, pauses for a short time, then says "Goodbye" and hangs up.

09:10:23 punkman: always makes me think "is this the day I get droned?"

09:14:37 punkman: granted, I'm not in drone country and the paranoia feels a couple decades early.

09:15:54 cazalla: i dunno, "goodbye" sounds a bit prophetic, i'd be getting the tinfoil hat and shotty, parachute at the ready

09:17:26 punkman: (actually says "Goodbye", not translated, with a somewhat american accent)

09:21:50 cazalla: mebe telemarkets and auto dialer couldn't find anyone free at the call centre to put you through to

09:21:55 cazalla: telemarketer

09:33:58 punkman: cazalla: yeah most likely

10:20:12 punkman: !up The20YearIRCloud

11:04:34 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $40 before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1096/ Odds: 18(Y):82(N) by coin, 26(Y):74(N) by weight. Total bet: 8.65433047 BTC. Current weight: 34,443.

11:04:36 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $30 before April" http://bitbet.us/bet/1112/ Odds: 14(Y):86(N) by coin, 14(Y):86(N) by weight. Total bet: 7.99351 BTC. Current weight: 85,744.

11:39:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1649 @ 0.0009468 = 1.5613 BTC [-] {10}

11:48:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 159 @ 0.00637779 = 1.0141 BTC [-]

12:26:02 jurov: uff.. three discarded msgs from btc-dev?

12:40:58 jurov: kakobrekla: is there a database? or any way to query http://w.b-a.link by keyid?

12:42:30 jurov: !ident assbot

12:42:36 jurov: !ident jurov

12:42:57 jurov: ;;ident jurov

12:42:57 gribble: Nick 'jurov', with hostmask 'jurov!~jurov@impr-2-pt.tunnel.tserv5.lon1.ipv6.he.net', is not identified.

12:46:34 jurov: i have found this but it won't work with short key ids: http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/FC66C0C5D98C42A1D4A98B6B42F9985AFAB953C4/json

12:46:36 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1zafFiK )

12:49:43 jurov: nah, querying by key id is bad idea anyway

12:55:48 punkman: jurov, any idea why my msg was dropped?

12:58:36 punkman: jurov, re:database http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=19-01-2015#983005

12:58:36 assbot: Logged on 19-01-2015 05:25:29; kakobrekla: whoever was asking for wot db dumps http://files.bitcoin-assets.com/wot/

12:59:46 jurov: and i was trying things like http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=wot+database

12:59:47 assbot: 8 results for 'wot database' - #bitcoin-assets search

13:05:56 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3350 @ 0.00094179 = 3.155 BTC [-] {2}

13:40:43 jurov: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was not able to determine why sig is bad. pls pastebin the original

13:41:11 jurov: punkman: your email client wordwrapped the clearsigned text, i was able to undo it

13:42:35 jurov: everyone PLEASE either wordwrap text before signing, or attach it as file so that email client as no chance to munge it (you can leave empty body then)

13:56:44 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2015#1004094 <<< transactions usually make it accross chain forks

13:56:44 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2015 05:11:42; trinque: should I be de-publishing things that ended up timestamped on a dropped fork?

13:57:25 chetty: email that actually sends what you want and nothing else would be a worthy project :)

13:57:41 punkman: ^ if the block the bundle tx ends up in disappears, I think best idea is to make new tx

13:59:31 punkman: fukken wordwrap!

13:59:49 punkman: can't even find option to turn it off.

14:00:46 jurov: which client?

14:01:58 punkman: squirrelmail

14:01:58 mod6: wow this thing ran all night wedged @ 168,000: but didn't die http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=384mvxXm

14:01:59 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DARIRw )

14:02:02 mod6: wtf

14:02:07 mod6: anyway, later.

14:02:41 mod6: oh yeah, i stopped it for now. i'll mess with it later tonight.

14:02:44 davout: re e-mail word-wrapping -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2822#section-2.1.1

14:02:46 assbot: RFC 2822 - Internet Message Format ... ( http://bit.ly/1DARU33 )

14:03:41 davout: what looks like the correct solution -> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2045#section-6.7

14:03:43 assbot: RFC 2045 - Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions (MIME) Part One: Format of Internet Message Bodies ... ( http://bit.ly/1DAS76v )

14:04:04 jurov: " to accommodate the many implementations of user interfaces that display these messages which may truncate, or disastrously wrap, the display of more than 78 characters per line" OMFG

14:04:40 punkman: just piles of stupid

14:05:14 jurov: if attached, it will get converted into quoted-printable or such. but few email clients are able to do it with body, too

14:06:15 jurov: imma using the phrase "it got disastrously wrapped" from now on

14:07:45 davout: kek

14:51:39 PeterL: re generating seedlist: once conected, the node has a list of working connections, yes? So dump some data from our working nodes into a file, that is our new seedlist for new nodes. Update periodically for people to grab from Foundation website.

14:55:51 coderwill: Hello, good day/evening all!

14:56:09 PeterL: good morning coderwill

14:56:40 coderwill: thanks

14:56:52 PeterL: usually "good day" is what you say when you leave, not with hello ;)

14:57:36 coderwill: hehe, I know a few latin americans that might disagree w/ that sentiment.

14:58:11 PeterL: using English?

14:59:57 coderwill: that's an interesting question - I would say yes, but that I debate whether or not that is actually English or a regionalism

15:03:07 coderwill: If you ever read or listen to Alan Watts this topic gets really subjective. :)

15:03:40 punkman: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/01/29/you-can-earn-13000-a-year-selling-your-poop/

15:03:41 assbot: You can earn $13,000 a year selling your poop - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/18KhJUR )

15:14:31 PeterL: jorov: if messages get disastrously wrapped, could your program automatically unwrap them?

15:20:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00038822 = 2.4846 BTC [-]

15:21:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 132800 @ 0.00038242 = 50.7854 BTC [-]

15:25:38 artifexd: Current gossipd status: Education still in progress. Code to the point of loading keys and accepting connections.

15:26:15 PeterL: which language are you writing it in?

15:26:34 artifexd: Go

15:40:07 lobbes: http://thebitcoin.foundation/index.html << I see y'all went for the 'hacker-green-and-black' after all

15:40:08 assbot: ..::[ The Bitcoin Foundation ]::.. ... ( http://bit.ly/1z7YzgA )

16:04:30 jurov: lobbes, have you seen http://mpex.co/?r=1 ?

16:05:54 jurov: PeterL: asciilifeform's email had about hundred lines. if you make me a code that can unwrap them right in polynomial time...

16:10:03 mircea_popescu: trinque: these "key value stores" are a joke << you don't understand the power ranger power range!

16:10:28 mircea_popescu: berkley db WAS NO GOOD because not modern enough. key value stores not a problem. those are good.

16:11:13 mircea_popescu: trinque: should I be de-publishing things that ended up timestamped on a dropped fork? << things can't end up detimestamped in the first place.

16:11:24 mircea_popescu: tx is either in the main chain or in the mempool. the forks/orphans/we are irrelevant.

16:11:55 lobbes: jurov: aha, I had not for some time. I'm digging the new look

16:12:44 mircea_popescu: fluffypony: "but WaffleDB is so much faster than mysql!" - which is a great argument if you're counting pageviews or storing log entries <<< yeah, which is a great argumrent too bad it's irrelevant.

16:13:22 jurov: http://blogs.enterprisedb.com/2014/09/24/postgres-outperforms-mongodb-and-ushers-in-new-developer-reality/ incidentally.

16:13:24 assbot: Postgres Outperforms MongoDB and Ushers in New Developer Reality « The Postgres Blog from EnterpriseDB ... ( http://bit.ly/1AomvD3 )

16:14:05 jurov: "new reality" my ass.

16:14:27 mircea_popescu: no, it is. new "web" reality.

16:14:40 mircea_popescu: ie, the reality produced by the "consensus" of the "community" of "developers" on twitter.

16:15:32 thestringpuller: jurov: yea. that was a really big story when it first came out. A lot of people started migrating of mongodb

16:15:47 thestringpuller: d00d in office used to joke about the mongodb coffee mugs they had given us

16:16:06 thestringpuller: "I'm going to drill holes in the bottom of all the mugs to illustrate a point"

16:16:08 mircea_popescu: mod6: still some 32400 nodes out there << no. look at that shit!

16:16:20 mircea_popescu: there are 1433 nodes with 90% uptime

16:16:41 jurov: !b 4

16:16:42 assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/24JKHJD.txt )

16:16:42 mircea_popescu: there are 323 nodes with 99% uptime.

16:17:03 mircea_popescu: and just 60 with 99.9% uptime.

16:17:14 thestringpuller: MP where are you getting these stats?

16:17:18 mircea_popescu: people keep derping about uh oh, 7k nodes. BULLSHIT. we're down from 270k to 61.

16:17:33 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller http://log.b-a.link/?date=03-02-2015#1004122

16:17:33 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2015 05:21:45; asciilifeform: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/seeds.txt

16:17:56 mircea_popescu: and whilke this massacre's going on, "uh oh, 20mb blocks, it will work fine"

16:18:02 mircea_popescu: gavin's mother on black cocks will work fine.

16:18:29 jurov: https://flavorwire.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/201011111141.jpg lil' gavin

16:18:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1AonRha )

16:18:41 mircea_popescu: "economic lolexperts in webeconomies have reviewed the fact that they have nfi what's what , what matters and where to look"

16:18:53 mircea_popescu: according to the five year old, the burning house is no immediate cause of concern, he has his teddy.

16:19:39 thestringpuller: MP how was this list created?

16:19:52 thestringpuller: or is that ALF question?

16:20:00 asciilifeform: jurov: if i attach it as attachment, will it display as normal message in turdatron (special case rule ?)

16:20:18 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller go to -dev ask sipa

16:20:18 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: see this_is_lame.txt

16:20:22 mircea_popescu: why ask me!

16:20:26 jurov: yes, clearsigned texts display directly in archive

16:20:35 asciilifeform: ^ that in fact was the letter that turdatron swallowed

16:20:44 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/this_is_lame.txt << copy

16:20:46 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1uUg9V0 )

16:20:59 jurov: ok, lemme see diff

16:21:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i read that off the mail list ?

16:22:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no you didn't

16:22:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you read the 'go for tea' letter

16:22:27 asciilifeform: (there's a few lines of code from that one in here)

16:22:28 mircea_popescu: what im not halucinating i saw a oh diff similar one ?

16:22:41 jurov: alf, presumably your email client did this:

16:22:42 asciilifeform: 10 whole lines were same, i think

16:22:42 jurov: < 1 1422939389 99.99% 99.40% 99.29% 87.54% 74.50% 341734 00000001 70001 "/Satoshi:0.8.6/"

16:22:44 jurov: > 1 1422939389 99.99% 99.40% 99.29% 87.54% 74.50%

16:22:45 jurov: > 341734 00000001 70001 "/Satoshi:0.8.6/"

16:23:03 mircea_popescu: why are we calling him alf again ?

16:23:23 *: asciilifeform doesn't know

16:23:53 jurov: why not?

16:24:02 mircea_popescu: trinque: who in the fuck let these bastards steal fire from the gods, and why wasn't I told about this? << but... http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GreenspunsTenthRuleOfProgramming

16:24:04 assbot: Greenspuns Tenth Rule Of Programming ... ( http://bit.ly/1uUgLKi )

16:24:14 mircea_popescu: jurov sure but i thought there was some funny story involved

16:24:27 jurov: !s alf

16:24:28 assbot: 40 results for 'alf' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=alf

16:24:37 asciilifeform: incidentally, i have no idea who sipa is, but does appear to do much of the gruntwork in phoundation's bitcoind

16:24:39 mircea_popescu: o hey good idea. why didn't i think of that!

16:25:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pieter wuille. one of the more sane people involved.

16:25:08 asciilifeform: looks vaguely east asian in his github icon

16:25:09 asciilifeform: aha

16:25:26 mircea_popescu: currently doing something on sillycon funds with gmaxwell as a public whore.

16:25:29 asciilifeform: seems like he wrote most or all of the post-0.5.3 stuff that actually works

16:25:38 asciilifeform: e.g., the stuff i backported

16:25:56 mircea_popescu: yes, a supermajority. bluematt did mopst of the post 0.5.3 testing that's not retarded,

16:26:02 mircea_popescu: and there;'s a coupla more folks i wouldn'

16:26:04 mircea_popescu: t negrate on sight

16:26:36 asciilifeform: uptimes << who is surprised ?

16:26:56 mircea_popescu: who with a clue is ever surprised by the facts of any matter in discussion ?

16:27:09 asciilifeform: by definition, lol

16:27:16 mircea_popescu: but the point is, since some of the brighter young minds on forum have taken to reading the logs, pointing out the plain obvious now and again is god's work

16:28:00 asciilifeform: ergo the experiment described in this_is_lame.txt - probably did not say anything new to the folks here, but may benefit the students

16:28:15 jurov: phoundation's seeds replaced with this_is_lame.txt, distributed

16:28:35 jurov: mircea can do the same to get his email out

16:28:53 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000046.html << ty jurov

16:28:53 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1AoqAY2 )

16:29:14 mircea_popescu: jurov im reading the logs see why my email died, haven't gotten therer yet but will presently.

16:30:57 mircea_popescu: "All programs have been written, and that program is Lisp. With perfection already attained, implementation is left to the ignorant who do not already know the truth of this." << shit, now i know why i don't code.

16:31:00 mircea_popescu: "solved problem'

16:32:59 mircea_popescu: fluffypony: no no wait, BarnacleChains << win.

16:33:19 asciilifeform: 262474.

16:33:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: jurov: without so much as a burp. << you knoiw you keep saying this, but it's an email drop. how would you want it to burp ?

16:33:28 mircea_popescu: if it did, how would you hear it.

16:33:36 asciilifeform: it has no mouth

16:33:38 asciilifeform: cannot burp

16:33:40 asciilifeform: but frustrating.

16:33:47 mircea_popescu: short of implementing the phantomcircuit hack and emailing everyone who ever emailed it anythging the whole error log every time

16:33:56 asciilifeform: at least we oughta bake a 'lint' for these msgs

16:34:02 asciilifeform: i'll probably do it

16:34:42 mircea_popescu: punkman: always makes me think "is this the day I get droned?" << just checking the line's still live.

16:35:35 thestringpuller: !s this_is_lame.txt

16:35:36 assbot: 1 results for 'this_is_lame.txt' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=this_is_lame.txt

16:35:56 TomServo: I noticed a fully-synced node maintains its IRC connection. I was curious if that's desirable, and also if that means you're made a candidate to fill other nodes?

16:36:28 jurov: asciilifeform: how do you propose the lint would work? run on saved mailbox?

16:37:11 mircea_popescu: TomServo the latter yes.

16:38:45 jurov: in any webmail, you can save the finished message as draft and then try to gpg verify the text. that should take care of 90% of above problems

16:40:45 mircea_popescu: jurov http://pastebin.com/eYVsfbYD << pastebin of original

16:40:46 assbot: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 The enclosed 1386667 bytes f - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1AoubVU )

16:42:18 mircea_popescu: chetty: email that actually sends what you want and nothing else would be a worthy project :) << better than darmkail and other bs at any rate.

16:43:06 mircea_popescu: punkman: ^ if the block the bundle tx ends up in disappears, I think best idea is to make new tx << no. there's exactly no reason for deedbot to have block awareness. if the tx disappears, it should not notice.

16:43:08 mircea_popescu: so that we will.

16:44:28 mircea_popescu: jurov: " to accommodate the many implementations of <<< specification made to accomodate the implementation. welcome to the world of braindamage, or where do you think civil engineers that flunked go ? computer science!

16:44:48 mircea_popescu: "here's a bridge building specification to accomodate the many bad bridges build all over the country" said nobody ever.

16:45:55 mircea_popescu: PeterL: re generating seedlist: once conected, the node has a list of working connections, yes? So dump some data from our working nodes into a file, that is our new seedlist for new nodes. Update periodically for people to grab from Foundation website. << not substantially different from the "scan the web" notion. more democracy.

16:46:06 mircea_popescu: a node of unknown provenance doesn't exist.

16:46:19 mircea_popescu: would you eat a chunk of cheesy-looking substance you found on the sidewalk ?

16:46:23 trinque: punkman: "droned" << heh, I just got a call from a weird number saying they received a package addressed to me

16:46:28 trinque: ...anthrax!

16:46:38 mircea_popescu: why then would you read nobody's opinion in the newspaper or try to digest a random chunk of online nonsense.

16:49:45 trinque: mircea_popescu: and apparently http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?GreencoddsTenthRuleOfProgramming

16:49:47 assbot: Greencodds Tenth Rule Of Programming ... ( http://bit.ly/1AowacR )

16:49:47 mircea_popescu: jurov btw i can guarantee my client did no skullduggery to the email. i have the outgoing saved as sent by the mta.

16:49:47 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i am suprised list has nothing under 0.8

16:49:58 thestringpuller: does this mean phoundation is trying to hijack nodes?

16:50:00 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller it

16:50:04 mircea_popescu: 's not a very good list.

16:50:04 thestringpuller: Iterpret the results for me

16:50:50 jurov: mircea_popescu: your pastebin doesn't verify

16:50:56 mircea_popescu: eh get out ?!

16:51:14 jurov: show raw, saved it and... bad sig

16:51:17 mircea_popescu: jesuswtf

16:54:03 mircea_popescu: well... resigning

16:57:33 mircea_popescu: ok my client is doing some unspecified mangling somewhere wtf.

17:00:48 mircea_popescu: jurov resent, with signed material attached as file. still nothing there apparently.

17:01:50 mircea_popescu: artifexd: Current gossipd status: Education still in progress. Code to the point of loading keys and accepting connections. << sounds pretty good.

17:06:01 asciilifeform: jurov: lint would be run locally. by the rest of us.

17:06:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ErikNaggum << check that out.

17:06:33 assbot: Erik Naggum ... ( http://bit.ly/1AoA2uh )

17:06:48 mircea_popescu: funny how things change. "PaulGraham's evil twin." ? rly ?

17:07:00 asciilifeform: email that actually sends what you want and nothing else would be a worthy project << would have to be present at every hop of the message. a direly implausible project, sadly

17:07:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just let it SEND what you want.

17:07:45 mircea_popescu: you know ? i'm all ready to go back to bang paths over here.

17:08:26 TomServo: he railed against using period << ?!

17:08:27 mircea_popescu: just as long as i get back the control, i see no problem with !derp!herp!router!alf

17:08:36 asciilifeform: "here's a bridge building specification to accomodate the many bad bridges build all over the country" said nobody ever. << the space scuttle was, according to legend, sized so that the typical american bridge could safely pass it. likewise legend holds that this was just short of true, and many bridges (not to mention roads) had lives considerably shortened by the scuttle

17:10:51 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you mean the shuttle ?!

17:11:12 asciilifeform: aye

17:11:17 mircea_popescu: it lands at an airport like everything else dunnit ?

17:11:29 TomServo: "Whoever decided to use the semicolon to end something should just be taken out and have his colon semified. (At least COBOL and SQL managed to use a period.)" heh

17:11:29 asciilifeform: the tanks

17:11:32 asciilifeform: had to travel

17:11:39 asciilifeform: for political reasons - full

17:11:50 asciilifeform: then it was assembled and launched

17:11:53 asciilifeform: every time.

17:12:11 *: asciilifeform thought this was commonly known

17:12:20 asciilifeform: perhaps not outside of gringolandia

17:12:21 mircea_popescu: oh oh

17:13:20 mircea_popescu: TomServo i dunno why he's so strung up on it ; semicolon is perfectly fine way to end things ; it also happens to be the traditional english ending of "separable entities that are for ulterior reasons strung together".

17:13:47 asciilifeform: !up the_scourge

17:14:05 TomServo: Came across that looking for a tirade against the period - asciilifeform any help?

17:14:21 asciilifeform: TomServo: can't recall such a thing

17:14:35 the_scourge: rehi

17:14:51 the_scourge: need to put a warning about needing a cloak in this chan :)

17:15:05 asciilifeform: we used to have one

17:15:32 asciilifeform: then ddoser took a vacation, it sorta vanished

17:15:55 the_scourge: um... recently? as in the last 5 hours? :)

17:16:16 the_scourge: i JUST got ddos'd once last night and twice earlier today

17:16:26 asciilifeform: then we can presume he's back in business.

17:16:37 the_scourge: yes very much so

17:16:43 mircea_popescu: more like back in hobby.

17:16:48 asciilifeform: the_scourge: didja measure?

17:17:01 the_scourge: and it was one of the more impressive ones i've ever seen, and i used to see top quality ones on a daily basis

17:17:32 the_scourge: asciilifeform: it totally saturated at least 2 full gigabit fibre terminii

17:17:52 mircea_popescu: packet count is more on point.

17:18:20 asciilifeform: the_scourge: from packet dumps taken by myself and at least 2 other folks here, appears that mr. ddos uses mainly 'amplification' method (ssdp, ntp)

17:18:39 the_scourge: but what's most interesting is the shape of the traffic and the packets... i was plugged into a sub-campus and it would appear that it was using dynamic discovery protocol over http for amplification (using any device that supports it)

17:19:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73600 @ 0.0003716 = 27.3498 BTC [-]

17:19:07 asciilifeform: it is actually a bit hard to take a proper capture of ddos (as in, all or even most of the packets) with common equipment

17:19:07 the_scourge: yes it was ssdp, i couldn't remember (brain fart and i'm home chilling)

17:19:37 the_scourge: asciilifeform: the network guys at $my_client are actually top-notch

17:19:42 asciilifeform: well sure

17:19:45 asciilifeform: but that's what makes it a dos

17:19:54 asciilifeform: overwhelms routing equipment

17:20:03 the_scourge: they brought a wireshark dump over to my desk

17:20:05 asciilifeform: you end up with, at best, a statistical sample

17:20:11 the_scourge: asciilifeform: oh yah totally

17:20:16 asciilifeform: the_scourge: would you care to post it publicly ?

17:20:29 the_scourge: i didn't ask for the USB stick

17:20:47 mircea_popescu: cool story bro.

17:21:08 the_scourge: this is a paying client. even though everything pointed to me being targeted, i still didn't want to make more noise than i already had

17:21:27 asciilifeform: we have at least two posted by regulars - one that was entirely ssdp (from buggy upnp in consumer routers) and another that was mostly ntp (likewise misconfigured embedded electronics)

17:21:54 the_scourge: oh weird

17:22:02 the_scourge: this definitely had ntp as well

17:22:42 asciilifeform: the_scourge: i've discovered that cellular modems, at least in the way they are operated in usa, are immune to this type of ddos.

17:22:45 asciilifeform: funnily enough

17:22:52 asciilifeform: (they are nearly useless for everyday life)

17:23:15 the_scourge: and sadly i was on a VERY VERY VERY large very flat network with more class A IPs than ... almost any other entity on the planet. and lots of buggy ssdp routers all over the place 'cause of the (phys) architecture

17:23:18 asciilifeform: the telco drops anything at all coming your way that isn't part of a tcp connection you established earlier

17:23:52 jurov: mircea_popescu: the email is out, after a bugfix (to account for application/pgp mimetype properly)

17:23:57 mircea_popescu: this is how it's supposed to work anyway

17:24:00 the_scourge: asciilifeform: yah we ended up having to use another contractor's LTE just to try to google some of the fingerprints

17:24:05 mircea_popescu: jurov yay!

17:24:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000047.html

17:24:24 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1AoEjhi )

17:24:31 *: the_scourge needs to get LTE of some kind but is a bit of a nutter about that kinda shit

17:24:49 mircea_popescu: jurov uh but how do i fin the file ?

17:25:01 mircea_popescu: o nm lol

17:25:05 mircea_popescu: found it.

17:25:22 asciilifeform: the_scourge: LTE << what country ?

17:26:59 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ty!

17:27:05 mircea_popescu: !up sergiohlb

17:27:18 the_scourge: asciilifeform: UK for most business needs

17:27:24 mircea_popescu: in unrelated news, i dreamed up a new licensing model which teh foundation and us generally might wish to consdier.

17:27:32 mircea_popescu: ima write it up and lookingforward to comments.

17:28:00 the_scourge: also, north america sometimes. but right now i just need a UK dongle that has chinese backdoors instead of american

17:28:38 the_scourge: do the russians make LTE hotspots? they've started making smartphones with e-ink, but it's a shame i didn't hear about it until after i went off of smartphones entirely

17:28:53 asciilifeform: the_scourge: 'sparkfun corp.' sells a lte simcard good for 6 months, ~80 usd

17:29:01 asciilifeform: usa-only iirc

17:29:20 asciilifeform: the_scourge: huawei corp makes lte modems

17:31:34 asciilifeform: !rate the_scourge 1 new blood, seems like a reasonable fella

17:31:34 assbot: the_scourge is not registered in WoT.

17:31:44 the_scourge: assbot is a liar

17:31:46 asciilifeform: get in wot the_scourge

17:31:49 asciilifeform: rly?

17:31:53 the_scourge: i thought i was... one sec

17:32:27 the_scourge: oh wait, i've only set up my gpg key, do i need to associate a bitcoin address as well?

17:32:31 asciilifeform: nope

17:32:35 asciilifeform: gpg suffices

17:32:48 asciilifeform: are you logged in under same nick ?

17:33:16 the_scourge: 16:45 <gribble> You are now authenticated for user the_scourge with key 300A9F6A3D0564B4

17:33:20 the_scourge: ^ yes

17:33:23 asciilifeform: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=the_scourge

17:33:23 assbot: #bitcoin-otc gpg key data ... ( http://bit.ly/1AoFYDR )

17:33:26 PeterL: aha, needs to be assbot

17:33:42 asciilifeform: kakobrekla, is the_scourge in the new assbot wot ?

17:33:45 the_scourge: oh of course

17:34:04 the_scourge: do i just do the same dance with assbot?

17:34:26 the_scourge: the docs made it seem like assbot used the otc WOT

17:34:46 PeterL: http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/assbot

17:34:46 assbot: irc_bots:assbot [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1vn4pjB )

17:34:46 asciilifeform: the_scourge: not long ago, kakobrekla finished a rework of wot. so there are a few hiccups

17:35:22 asciilifeform: try the '!register' function

17:37:01 the_scourge: with.... gribble?

17:37:05 asciilifeform: with assbot

17:37:13 asciilifeform: see the earlier link

17:39:09 chetty: That?s right ? 77 percent of 18- to 34-year-olds in the new survey could not name even one US senator in their home state

17:40:00 asciilifeform: chetty: expect this number to reach 99+ as the residual fucks given re: political apparatus waft away

17:40:10 chetty: more than nine in 10 of the 18- to 34-year-olds plan to vote in the 2016

17:40:29 trinque: how hard is it to pick a favorite color out of two?

17:40:36 asciilifeform: chetty: a good many otherwise well-informed, educated folks in late ussr could not name very many muppets either

17:41:23 chetty: well it has rather ceased to matter, get screwed by the red or by the blue, who cares

17:41:48 asciilifeform: folks enjoy the ritual of 'choosing' left- or right-handed thread on the screw

17:43:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems like your post was originally rejected by turdatron because it did not contain a machine-readable signature for the tarball

17:44:01 asciilifeform: your statement that said tarball must not be used except for research should have gone into the signed message body

17:44:29 asciilifeform: turdatron wants a machine-readable standalone sig (just the --pgp-- block) for every attachment.

17:44:34 asciilifeform: !up the_scourge

17:44:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if it's not in the signed body where did you get it from ?

17:45:01 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20150203/header-bitcoin-src-21may2012_8b34d7ebf677c0fb6434ef87c18492857af9e391.asc

17:45:02 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2rFDD )

17:45:33 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000047.html << i think jurov slipped this through manually. there is no message body, signed or otherwise

17:45:34 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2rNDa )

17:46:15 jurov: yes, on it

17:46:21 jurov: it should show body

17:46:53 asciilifeform: jurov: that's not the problem i'm talking about. rather, the fact that turdatron could not possibly have processed this message on its own.

17:47:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no message body cause when i put it in the body it got mangled to hell

17:47:36 mircea_popescu: anyway, explain to me like i'm slow, there's a problem with the thing as presented ?

17:47:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: turdatron, as originally built, expects a pattern like this: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000040.html

17:47:49 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2s5dh )

17:47:50 mircea_popescu: you get a hash of the file and an explanation of purpose in the signed attachment, seems reasonable ?

17:47:52 jurov: mircea_popescu: it is supposed to show directly the clearsigned text that was used to validate the message

17:48:06 asciilifeform: there is (optionally) message body; then, for each attachment, there is a detached-sig

17:48:06 mircea_popescu: jurov oh as opposed to attached ?

17:48:09 jurov: regardless of any other attachemnts

17:48:29 mircea_popescu: oh i c

17:48:43 mircea_popescu: jurov can convention be that if body is empty 1st attachment = body ?

17:48:51 mircea_popescu: (somehoiw i thought this was the case)

17:48:56 asciilifeform: i think jurov is working on that one

17:49:02 mircea_popescu: aha okies.

17:49:10 mircea_popescu: poor jurov, he's getting stretched here.

17:49:10 jurov: yes, that's what i'm doing. it just insists that application/pgp is not text

17:49:14 asciilifeform: this was, afaik, the only known answer to the mutilations

17:49:37 mircea_popescu: well it is not text, technically, because you can also send it as binary.

17:50:02 mircea_popescu: should i force clearsigned material be saved as .txt ?

17:50:03 jurov: wait, you can clearsign in binary?

17:50:12 mircea_popescu: nope. but i could have, and the file'd have been .asc too

17:50:23 jurov: yes, saving it as txt would help. but best to fix it for once.

17:50:26 mircea_popescu: (i imagine it goes by file extension)

17:53:03 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000046.html << comments/thoughts ?

17:53:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2t25m )

17:55:52 the_scourge: will assbot search long keyids on keys.gnupg.net?

17:57:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not surprised in the slightest ?

17:57:54 mircea_popescu: it's not me trying to build a parallel, closed universe.

17:59:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: purpose of experiment was to demonstrate the fact of.

17:59:29 asciilifeform: (said universe)

18:00:05 mircea_popescu: yup. and in that it succeeds.

18:01:41 the_scourge: asciilifeform: who was asserting that there were nodes < v0.8

18:01:46 asciilifeform: the_scourge: no one.

18:02:07 asciilifeform: the_scourge: but i was digging for proof that a) there are < 0.8 nodes in the candidate list b) none were selected

18:02:11 asciilifeform: and found it.

18:02:35 the_scourge: oh yah i see

18:03:08 asciilifeform: punkman et al: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000048.html

18:03:09 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2uqEV )

18:03:17 the_scourge: why would they select such a node? surely no reason other than "this operator is keeping up to date" would need to be given

18:03:31 asciilifeform: the_scourge: if, say, it were a random selection

18:03:34 the_scourge: reading

18:03:45 asciilifeform: the_scourge: the only genuine oddity is that the selection process was not described

18:03:56 asciilifeform: or, at the very least, i was not able to find such a description

18:03:59 asciilifeform: in their published material

18:04:09 asciilifeform: if it is in there after all - i'd appreciate a pointer.

18:04:43 the_scourge: right

18:05:01 the_scourge: i'm being a mong with this !register command

18:05:02 asciilifeform: my current working hypothesis is that the 512-list contains 'stratfors' or similar animals

18:05:24 asciilifeform: little burrowing underground animals

18:05:30 the_scourge: i've given it my long key id... it says invalid (so quickly i have a hard time believing it even did a search)

18:05:47 asciilifeform: kakobrekla ^

18:05:51 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1637 @ 0.00096996 = 1.5878 BTC [+] {2}

18:06:04 asciilifeform: ask kakobrekla when he awakens

18:06:10 asciilifeform: he is the author of assbot

18:06:16 the_scourge: cool thanks

18:06:56 the_scourge: idk man i appreciate your sleuthing and keep it up but holding the btc foundation's feet to the fire will NEVER work

18:07:14 asciilifeform: what means 'work' in this context

18:07:14 asciilifeform: ?

18:07:40 the_scourge: like we're back in a weird 'sleuth and journalist > public opinion' game which was lost a LONG time ago

18:08:28 asciilifeform: the_scourge: you will find that one of the more interesting ideas we run with in #b-a is that public opinion isn't a particularly interesting concept re: bitcoin

18:08:39 asciilifeform: it's rather like public opinion of the atomic bomb

18:08:46 the_scourge: well i take it your goal is to prevent nefarious hijacking of bitcoind, done in such a way that everyone upgrades and long after it is realized that the network is resultingly compromised?

18:08:55 asciilifeform: not especially enthusiastic, but it doesn't keep the neutrons in

18:08:56 the_scourge: which, the seed nodes would be a good vector for such a thing

18:10:12 the_scourge: ok, but public opinion will determine who uses what version/implementation of bitcoind, and a seed node can be packaged with said distribution

18:10:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://fraudsters.com/2015/a-new-software-licensing-paradigm/ <

18:10:18 assbot: A new software licensing paradigm pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2vwAL )

18:10:29 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes mod6 ^ does that sound like something teh foundation might support ?

18:10:35 asciilifeform: the protocol is sufficiently well-designed, and vintage nodes sufficiently abundant (esp. among miners) that said hijacking presents little more than an annoyance at present (see mod6's experiment last night.)

18:10:58 the_scourge: is the experiment discussed in last night's logs?

18:10:58 asciilifeform: but it does not follow that, if you can hear mice in the walls but have not yet discovered their turds in your cupboards - mice are harmless and ought to be let alone

18:11:03 asciilifeform: the_scourge: yes

18:11:40 mircea_popescu: <the_scourge> like we're back in a weird 'sleuth and journalist > public opinion' game which was lost a LONG time ago << public opinion only matters in fiat backed worlds.

18:11:47 mircea_popescu: in gold backed words, that game wasn't lost, nor was it ever played.

18:12:07 the_scourge: right so you're saying nefarious things are being attempted but the attempts are hopeless even within the main branch of blockchain

18:12:23 mircea_popescu: part of why we're here is exactly that : making paper money impossible -> making the welfare governments impossible -> making the "public oppiunion" impossible -> undo the numerous errors of the 20th century.

18:12:46 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: right, i was talking about the world at large. you can stick a fork in journalistic integrity, it's done

18:12:59 the_scourge: er, maybe i blame the mob more than their journalists... whatever

18:13:01 mircea_popescu: you can also stick a fork in "representative democracy" equally done.

18:13:25 the_scourge: 20th century? a bit myopic? otherwise i agree

18:14:29 mircea_popescu: jurov o splendid, i got a mod notice and everything. i like how this works.

18:14:34 mircea_popescu: !up Jrum

18:14:41 the_scourge: wanting to undo the new deal and sufferage etc only makes you a slightly redder republican, or a backbencher tory

18:15:05 asciilifeform: !up the_scourge

18:16:44 mircea_popescu: im neither. i'm a fucking guelph. that's a white flag you see behind, and the battle is for imperial immediacy not bs.

18:17:05 the_scourge: ok, so other than the microscope paper (which is a bit high-level) what exactly can/should/could be done with bitcoin itself? why not just skip to working on the other stuff and let the existing bitcoin maintainers work out their shit. there are plenty of people who oppose the foundation already

18:17:36 asciilifeform: which is the 'other stuff'

18:17:38 the_scourge: imperial immediacy ... gonna have to look that one up :)

18:17:41 asciilifeform: particle physics ?

18:18:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i propose name 'piratic license'

18:18:35 the_scourge: asciilifeform: comms, hardware, 'corporate' governance, sovereignty techology

18:18:43 asciilifeform: or, if you prefer something more orcish, the hajduk licence.

18:19:02 asciilifeform: the_scourge: this means bitcoin in much the same way that computing means semiconductor.

18:19:08 the_scourge: admittedly, that last one consists of 'shit that already exists' - small unit tactics. but a lot of it is high-tech and needs work

18:19:35 asciilifeform: bitcoin - the actual bitcoin, that, contrary to popular notion, still functions - is the semiconductor for all of these.

18:19:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, let them come up with that.

18:19:48 chetty: when did Erik Voorhees get to be a 'VC' ?

18:19:51 mircea_popescu: name should be based on the actual world not on the current

18:20:09 mircea_popescu: chetty perhaps once stalin gave him a license ?

18:20:11 the_scourge: a victoria cross ... omg

18:20:15 *: asciilifeform likes names based on distant pasts

18:20:38 mircea_popescu: the_scourge the notion that anyone works on bitcoin or in any manner relevant to bitcoin outside of this channel is laughable on its face.

18:21:18 asciilifeform: the_scourge: 'vc' around here typically refers to the american financial term

18:21:28 the_scourge: cool, can you clarify? i like prose so feel free to link

18:21:34 asciilifeform: 'venture capital'

18:21:44 the_scourge: asciilifeform: i know i make good joke!?

18:21:50 asciilifeform: it's more sad than funny

18:22:05 asciilifeform: though i prefer 'vulture capital'

18:22:14 chetty: well last I heard he was a convict, so I guess we know who is greasing his palm

18:22:45 mircea_popescu: never went to trial did he ?

18:23:06 asciilifeform: chetty: iirc he was fined in a civil court

18:23:06 chetty: plea afaik

18:23:26 asciilifeform: more like a traffic violation (with bigger numbers) than a criminal matter

18:23:30 asciilifeform: but - ianal!

18:23:50 asciilifeform: in ru world this is called 'administrative penalty'

18:24:26 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: can you elaborate on your assertion? i don't like making assumptions

18:24:33 chetty: riiight, and I am sure he will now be a good boy

18:24:34 asciilifeform: (possible criminal complaint if you don't pay, and referred to collections apparatus as a civil debt)

18:25:06 mircea_popescu: the_scourge which one

18:26:12 the_scourge: "the notion that anyone"

18:26:53 mircea_popescu: seems pretty plain.

18:27:46 the_scourge: ok well define 'bitcoin' then in the context... like it or not LOTS of people are working on lots of implementations which lots of people are using/will use

18:28:09 the_scourge: so if we're talking about the main fork of the chain, then... idk you have to ellaborate

18:28:27 asciilifeform: the_scourge: you may be aware that bitcoin network does not function by 'vote' of the nodes.

18:28:40 asciilifeform: but in a rather different way

18:29:02 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/a-new-software-licensing-paradigm/

18:29:35 mircea_popescu: define bitcoin ?! any and all blockchain based, mining enforced, elecrtronic currencies.

18:29:55 kakobrekla: the_scourge see pm.

18:29:59 mircea_popescu: the particulars are discussed in http://fraudsters.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies/

18:29:59 assbot: The woes of Altcoin, or why there is no such thing as "cryptocurrencies" pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1IGVwSi )

18:30:06 mircea_popescu: the generals are that you can have only one monetized good

18:30:18 mircea_popescu: all the others are derivatives of its monetization, they can't have their own.

18:31:19 the_scourge: i read that article, it seemed to be saying that smaller POW protocols would always be subject to hardness attacks

18:31:46 mircea_popescu: more generally, that nothing other than bitcoin can really exist

18:32:48 asciilifeform: see also the works of tom schelling

18:32:59 asciilifeform: (game theorist)

18:33:04 mircea_popescu: or whatever, five centuries of macroeconomics discussions.

18:33:29 asciilifeform: n centuries of geometrywank < euclid

18:33:59 mircea_popescu: they just hold some sentimental appeal for me :)

18:34:21 mircea_popescu: sorta like redditard'd go "see collected manga works" or w/e.

18:35:25 the_scourge: right, but for the issue at present: POW will always be vulnerable to hardness attacks, because there are bad?unlikeable?big? people in the world who can do a lot of work and ruin the fun for everyone, even if we ignore their fork of the chain. btc got very lucky in that it slipped under the radar, but that will never happen again in history. the wardens have been alerted

18:35:36 the_scourge: am i ... doing it justice? so far?

18:35:46 mircea_popescu: bitcoin stable state is where > 50% of all energy generated on planet earth goes to mininmg.

18:35:56 the_scourge: right

18:36:11 mircea_popescu: and it won't be "the wardens"

18:36:24 mircea_popescu: the wardens are dead. the invisible hand however... myeah.

18:37:14 mircea_popescu: you can always derive a profit by attacking unmonetized goods, or rather ; by exploiting the false claim of anyone putting forth an unmonetized good as money.

18:37:25 mircea_popescu: as soros proved for the benefit of the bank of england.

18:38:01 mircea_popescu: which is why i don't particularly mind gavin trying to create a scamcoin, nor whatever "public oppinion" support he may muster.

18:38:05 mircea_popescu: more money is always welcome.

18:38:13 ben_vulpes: ah jesus

18:38:29 ben_vulpes: over a thousand log lines

18:38:35 mircea_popescu: good stuff too.

18:41:37 the_scourge: !rate kakobrekla 1 helped me register

18:41:37 assbot: the_scourge is not registered in WoT.

18:41:47 ben_vulpes: !b 2

18:41:48 assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1NY6W1Q.txt )

18:41:57 ben_vulpes: humbug.

18:42:03 the_scourge: wut

18:42:03 asciilifeform: the_scourge: gotta be in wot and logged in to press that button

18:42:05 asciilifeform: thinkaboutit

18:42:26 the_scourge: yah ... i thought i was (again)

18:42:29 kakobrekla: err, there is no session to be 'logged in'

18:42:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there;s no logged in

18:42:33 asciilifeform: else every sp4mz0r would be rated $maxint

18:42:34 mircea_popescu: damned.

18:42:42 asciilifeform: well authenticated

18:42:47 mircea_popescu: mnop :D

18:42:49 kakobrekla: neg

18:42:52 mircea_popescu: yay!

18:42:56 kakobrekla: stfu

18:43:01 the_scourge: !rate kakobrekla 1 helped me register

18:43:01 assbot: You must be rated before you can rate.

18:43:05 kakobrekla: aha!

18:43:09 kakobrekla: see, it works.

18:43:10 the_scourge: yay!

18:43:26 trinque: m-my blockchain... 'tis to the 18th of the present month!

18:43:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 200 @ 0.0056089 = 1.1218 BTC [-] {9}

18:43:35 the_scourge: grrr it was UX issues ... tmux buffers + whitespace.... more excuses, more excuses

18:43:37 mircea_popescu: trinque pogo ?

18:43:39 asciilifeform: !rate the_scourge 1 new blood, seems like a reasonable fella, presently

18:43:39 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/2eb0c3750b5032de

18:43:46 kakobrekla: asciilifeform each auth-worthy command gets otp

18:43:52 trinque: mircea_popescu: having read logs it seems like everything I was worrying about regarding timestamp-transactions is moot

18:44:00 mircea_popescu: ye

18:44:00 the_scourge: !rate kakobrekla 1 top man

18:44:00 assbot: You must be rated before you can rate.

18:44:15 the_scourge: er apparently having a 1 isn't good enough to give it away

18:44:16 kakobrekla: he must !verify first

18:44:20 asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.the_scourge.1:97ebe29eec56db08f42ab0fbddfb4b60375c862c3ec0412baac3b1e9b0f39e28

18:44:20 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for the_scourge with note: new blood, seems like a reasonable fella, presently

18:44:22 trinque: ben_vulpes and I were talking about blockchain forks when last we hacked it up, but I guess that does not mean transactions will have to be retransmitted?

18:44:23 kakobrekla: now you can.

18:44:28 kakobrekla: the_scourge ^^

18:44:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1906 @ 0.00096996 = 1.8487 BTC [+] {2}

18:44:30 the_scourge: !rate kakobrekla 1 top man

18:44:30 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/8c2b4494d56bfaf0

18:44:34 thestringpuller: so will raising VC capital soon be viewed as a negative sign for a company

18:44:43 mircea_popescu: depends where.

18:44:49 trinque: mircea_popescu: this blockchain is for deedbot

18:44:56 mircea_popescu: trinque a cool

18:45:19 thestringpuller: well sometimes it seems "blah raised x money" and you're like "why do they need that money so badly? Are they having trouble staying alive?"

18:45:39 asciilifeform: the_scourge: you can now self-voice, as described in the assbot manual (message it with !up)

18:45:51 thestringpuller: !up Jrum the_scourge

18:45:55 trinque: I thought I was going to have to re-chew the blockchain up from first funding each time to see whether "new shit had come to light"

18:45:59 thestringpuller: !up the_scourge

18:46:15 the_scourge: uh, i verified but assbot didn't announce it in here...

18:46:38 the_scourge: is it ok to verify in channel or is that too chatty

18:46:47 mircea_popescu: generally you send assbot !up in a pm

18:46:49 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: there is too much serial raising of funds. like its a mental illness or something.

18:47:06 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller you ever read that crooked timber tyhing about the bezzle was in log yest ?

18:47:11 trinque: thestringpuller: its like a fractured version of central economic planning

18:47:11 mircea_popescu: very good summary of a lot of problems.

18:47:23 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: if a leprous beggar could rent out space in his necrotic arsehole by the hour, to several clients in parallel, why wouldn't he

18:47:40 mircea_popescu: trinque quite exactly. accidental central planning and laika is alone in the control center.

18:47:43 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: i have not.

18:47:44 trinque: was talking with someone the other day about how the american system of govt is a shattered sovereign

18:47:52 trinque: I hadn't ever thought about it in those terms before

18:48:11 asciilifeform: trinque: that was moldbug's notion

18:48:21 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: oh i see!

18:48:26 the_scourge: in VC news, maidsafe got 19mil ... wtf

18:48:26 asciilifeform: trinque: he believed in 'conservation of sovereignty' (as if energy)

18:48:37 the_scourge: for a bunch of scottish guys to buy their porridge with... really?

18:48:39 mircea_popescu: http://crookedtimber.org/2013/11/21/ <<> read it. best primer of macroeconomics for noobs i ever saw.

18:48:40 assbot: 2013 November 21 — Crooked Timber ... ( http://bit.ly/1EDJb3H )

18:48:40 trinque: asciilifeform: interesting; is he worth reading?

18:48:44 trinque: I've seen him mentioned

18:48:49 asciilifeform: trinque: it depends

18:48:56 asciilifeform: trinque: try reading

18:49:07 the_scourge: trinque: imho, very worth reading

18:49:08 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: is this similar to female who rents out womb for having babies for infertile couples?

18:49:13 trinque: k

18:49:22 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: neh, that's honest work

18:49:24 mircea_popescu: the_scourge who are you anyway ?

18:49:39 the_scourge: i've just finish reading all of his non-bitcoin and non-economics posts (those are two things he ... isn't that brilliant with)

18:50:21 the_scourge: thestringpuller: also, probably best to avoid parallel womb renting

18:50:27 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: well what do you want to know

18:50:31 mircea_popescu: the suspicion being that perceived brilliance in other fields may be more the newspaper memory hole than his own merit.

18:50:42 mircea_popescu: the_scourge what do you do for a living, and what sort of education do you have basically.

18:52:10 the_scourge: erm well i work for myself doing ... what is interesting/profitable. was market data kernel tuning, then perl coding, now more 'devops' stuff

18:52:24 adlai: "market data kernel tuning"?

18:52:32 adlai: kernel as in trick?

18:52:35 the_scourge: in another life it was all systems programming etc but then i decided to go to the UK and join the Royal Marines... really really long story

18:52:50 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: leprous beggar sounds more like undead beggar in your instance then.

18:52:56 the_scourge: kernel as in... the linux kernel

18:53:24 *: adlai doesn't see the connection between "linux kernel" and "market data", but if that's interesting/profitable, glhf

18:53:53 mircea_popescu: i c.

18:54:12 the_scourge: and for education... fuck that seems like a long time ago but among other things i did a masters in ancient philosophy, languages and regilion. studied greek and aramaic and history as well

18:54:58 the_scourge: to be honest i just did the studies to get away from computers for a few hours a day.... also to answer the big questions in life

18:55:10 the_scourge: meh

18:55:21 mircea_popescu: !rate the_scourge 1 легальные резиденты

18:55:21 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/299ccbef20419f24

18:55:41 the_scourge: adlai: oh, i should have said there was custom hardware involved. and 48 core bulldozer CPUs (bad decision, but made before i arrived)

18:55:49 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.the_scourge.1:33e0ab5465f7642a6e1ae13ba6bbb73a29cd777a865ced5b2dfb9dd7a56197ab

18:55:49 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for the_scourge with note: легальные резиденты

18:55:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l!

18:56:20 the_scourge: hence, the kernel tuning. csets etc

18:56:40 the_scourge: um what's the best way for me to find out what that says

18:56:53 thestringpuller: ask alf

18:57:00 asciilifeform: ask ru dictionary

18:57:07 thestringpuller: legal residents or something says google

18:57:19 thestringpuller: #amiclose ?

18:57:23 mircea_popescu: quite.

18:57:23 thestringpuller: ^- that's what she said

18:59:06 the_scourge: right so translation helped. and i knew there was a reason i still keep a urxvt instance running, even though it's horribly bloated

18:59:14 the_scourge: *didn't help

18:59:45 kakobrekla: as requested, have some lulz http://dpaste.com/1AZP655.txt

18:59:46 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2Ceqg )

19:00:38 thestringpuller: Qntra material

19:00:41 the_scourge: adlai: to be honest my time doing the market data, i was more focused on getting an inside education on the more... interesting things in the financial markets, than stacking my CV with kernel/ASIC achievements. and in that regards i came out quite well

19:00:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120650 @ 0.00038193 = 46.0799 BTC [+] {2}

19:00:52 the_scourge: have avoided certain markets ever since :)

19:00:54 thestringpuller: cazalla or BingoBoingo awake?

19:00:55 mircea_popescu: aww coin telegraph goiung teh way of what was the one they kept pushing, that was supposedly big ? also coin something

19:00:56 ben_vulpes: <punkman> [] there's this robocaller that waits for me to pick up the phone and say something, pauses for a short time, then says "Goodbye" and hangs up. << calling to find people who pick up

19:01:12 mircea_popescu: coidesk!

19:01:38 ben_vulpes: <chetty> [] email that actually sends what you want and nothing else would be a worthy project :) << gnus, part of emacs, has worked for probably longer than i've been alove

19:01:45 ben_vulpes: alive*

19:03:07 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: in your soros example, what is the unmonetized commodity? surely not the gold

19:03:14 mircea_popescu: the pound.

19:03:17 the_scourge: sorry, i was going to ask earlier but... shit happened

19:03:20 the_scourge: right

19:03:46 the_scourge: the pound gets 2/3 qualities, close but no cigar

19:04:01 mircea_popescu: at the time the pound was on the receiving end of german rape.

19:04:08 the_scourge: i know the story

19:04:14 mircea_popescu: aite.

19:04:17 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] why are we calling him alf again ? << Ascii Life Form?

19:04:28 mircea_popescu: oh oh!

19:04:30 mircea_popescu: good1

19:05:18 the_scourge: i was thinking about this the other day ... some smart people say that if there is not secondary use (no matter how minor, compared to the total volume) then something cannot be monetized

19:05:30 the_scourge: and... that assertion is true until proven false

19:06:02 mircea_popescu: that assertion is false.

19:06:09 mircea_popescu: paper dollars have no secondary use.

19:06:14 the_scourge: nothing has ever been monetized successfully that couldn't be turned into swords or necklaces or circuitboards or compressors (or eaten but i'm going back a ways now)

19:06:22 asciilifeform: the_scourge: what's the secondary use for a benjamin? cocaine straw ?

19:06:30 ben_vulpes: toothcoin!

19:06:35 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: they're not monetizable (paper dollars) - just like the pound

19:06:41 mircea_popescu: ...

19:06:57 mircea_popescu: the pound was mini-usd at the time eh.

19:07:00 asciilifeform: the_scourge: why, then, were cowrie shells demonetized ?

19:07:06 the_scourge: nothing holds their value other than the force of the issuer's military. i served in one of them

19:07:27 asciilifeform: the_scourge: but why does a particular army demand to be paid in one thing and not another ?

19:07:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a word in your ear about "cowrie shells" : it is possible they were ever used for money. it is also possible libertard anthropologists created the pious fraud of "retarded non-white peoples also have some semblance of intelligence".

19:08:02 the_scourge: because they're brainwashed into supporting a certain nation (the issuer)

19:08:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik the post-slavetriangle use of said shells is a reasonably proven fact

19:08:11 asciilifeform: earlier? can't say

19:08:25 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the way i understand, they were an early proxy slavecoin.

19:09:32 the_scourge: there is a lot you can learn about finance by signing up to be a uniformed tough guy for one of the big two, with your head already fully unplugged

19:09:54 asciilifeform: the_scourge: as a boy i was fond of reading ungodly quantities of ww2 minutiae. and i remember marvelling that the luftwaffe had to pay xxx reichsmarks, for, e.g., a v2 rocket. 'why did nazis have to pay for things,' i asked.

19:09:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that merely the fact of exchanging "Shiny" for "cunt" might well be reported as "monetary shiny" by some people and 'loads of fun whee' by some others.

19:10:06 the_scourge: from personal experience, it's so fucking annoying though the best of us could only last a short while on the inside

19:10:15 asciilifeform: 'couldn't they just command it delivered'

19:10:25 asciilifeform: but then you learn that other aspects of physical world exist

19:10:36 mircea_popescu: they did, kinda. cowries played the role in africa that opium played in china

19:10:50 mircea_popescu: ie, earlier european governments understood the problems of unbalanced trade, and invented balancers.

19:11:00 mircea_popescu: but weren't stupid enough to accept the balancers as their own currency.

19:11:03 the_scourge: unless someone can remind me what the point of the original shells comment was, we drop it :) ?

19:11:16 the_scourge: the reich is interesting... oil was a big issue for them

19:11:24 asciilifeform: the_scourge: we have mats and adlai here, also former (or possibly reverse) army men in various corners of usa vassal empire

19:11:32 the_scourge: yah, i would hope putin has his historians working overtime right now

19:11:33 asciilifeform: the_scourge: you might enjoy reminiscing with them

19:11:34 adlai: "reverse"?

19:11:40 asciilifeform: reserve

19:11:41 asciilifeform: damn

19:11:45 adlai: ah yes

19:11:47 *: asciilifeform cleans keyboard and fingers

19:12:08 the_scourge: oh yah apparently mats is predisposed right now i tried pinging him a while ago

19:12:24 asciilifeform: the_scourge: point was the 'monetization' hypothesis

19:12:35 the_scourge: adlai: i'm one of those damn tea drinkers. well actually i'm not but w/e

19:12:43 asciilifeform: the_scourge: that king cannot simply order arbitrary objects monetized, or forgo the use of money entirely

19:12:47 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu: will respond on seeds and licenses later

19:12:49 *: adlai still hasn't gotten paid for his reserve duty, but doing this requires physical presence at various government bureaus that keep excessively sane hours

19:12:55 asciilifeform: (to the latter, there are some possible exceptions, see the ancient inca empire)

19:13:12 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] 'vulture capital' << i'm surprised you're not making the easy poo joke here too

19:13:18 the_scourge: asciilifeform: yes, yes they can. hitler couldn't because his guys were getting beaten by our guys

19:13:43 mircea_popescu: lol "yes we can'

19:13:45 mircea_popescu: glwt.

19:13:46 the_scourge: you can monetize ANYTHING with enough mind control and military. post bretton woods, that's all we've been doing!!!

19:13:54 asciilifeform: the_scourge: better example - 1918, lenin's boys experimented with cancelling money.

19:13:57 asciilifeform: didn't last long.

19:14:16 asciilifeform: because it was pure idiocy. just as proclaiming a switch to edison's dc mains grid would've been.

19:14:36 adlai: the_scourge: what did you serve in?

19:14:37 the_scourge: adlai: reserve? were you in at some point?

19:14:45 adlai: three years

19:14:54 the_scourge: full time?

19:15:09 adlai: "various corners of usa vassal empire" = IDF, in my case

19:15:38 the_scourge: asciilifeform: right, that's probably a stretch too far from reality. but USG and HMT and BoE have been doing the fiat thing for a while now, and that's just one step less crazy

19:15:50 adlai: so yes, three years, full time, and reserve duty for the extent of my healthy adult life (unless/til i move out of the country)

19:16:06 adlai: !up the_scourge

19:16:13 mircea_popescu: hard times in the international diabetes federation :D

19:16:19 asciilifeform: the_scourge: 'the fiat thing' ever tries, if you notice, to walk the fine line between scam and outright expropriation/dekulakization

19:16:20 the_scourge: oh cool i was going to join the IDF but they said i was too old

19:16:38 adlai: the_scourge: now that mp gave you legal residency, you should be able to !up yourself in PM with assbot, and that lasts as long as you're connected to the channel

19:17:17 the_scourge: which was retarded i was working on a kibbutz as a lifeguard and i was tearing up guys on their weekends on runs/workouts

19:17:17 nubbins`: <+ben_vulpes> <mircea_popescu> [] why are we calling him alf again ? << Ascii Life Form? <<< nod, gw

19:17:37 nubbins`: ;;google a.l.f.

19:17:38 gribble: ALF TV | The Official Unofficial ALF Fan Site!: http://www.alftv.com/; ALF (TV series) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALF_(TV_series); ALF (TV Series 1986–1990) - IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090390/

19:18:25 the_scourge: adlai: thanks, done

19:18:41 adlai: expecting anything short of retardation from a bureaucracy the size of the idf is hopeful at best

19:18:43 the_scourge: adlai: what unit were you in? you can reply in hebrew, no worries

19:19:16 adlai: http://dpaste.com/1AZP655.txt

19:19:17 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2EJsE )

19:19:18 adlai: pastefail

19:19:21 adlai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7fj97-UckI

19:19:22 assbot: MLRS - STEEL RAIN/BLACK RAIN - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1F2EI86 )

19:20:37 asciilifeform: adlai: american version of 'katyusha' ?

19:21:00 adlai: very, very, very americanized

19:21:41 adlai: more bomblets! more rockets! firing faster! from a bigger vehicle! with better treads! etc

19:21:54 asciilifeform: for 75x the price

19:21:58 asciilifeform: aha.

19:22:01 mircea_popescu: lol

19:22:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in their defense, they can actually use it

19:22:26 adlai: eh well.

19:22:37 asciilifeform: i could used a golden toilet too

19:22:37 the_scourge: adlai: i don't even know what unit that is

19:22:55 the_scourge: i was interested in shesh shesh tesha at the time :D

19:23:20 adlai: oh to be so young and patriotic again!

19:24:00 mircea_popescu: haha you were ?

19:24:07 adlai: mlrs is just a regular battalion in the army, but it used to be a special unit like that one... so there was this massive cognitive dissonance, where the higher up the officer, the more elite they thought their unit was

19:24:23 adlai: but the soldiers themselves were just your average shmuck

19:25:00 the_scourge: or shayetet13 - i wasn't young or patriotic ... and i wasn't when i got a good slot in the british military. i was having the same thoughts as moldbug, but instead of blogging about it i decided to become as deadly as possible in as short amount of time as possible

19:25:49 the_scourge: and actually it was about a year before he started blogging

19:26:55 adlai: not having actually been in such units, i'm speaking from impressions of people who were - but it seems as though the army trains people to be useful to the army, and any personal benefit that people got out of these units was mainly due to their own efforts to better themselves

19:27:14 mircea_popescu: that's pretty much what it is.

19:29:10 the_scourge: adlai: 1. i tried very hard before, during and after to get as much tactical benefit as possible. 2. you're right, and in retrospect i could have done equally well by making shedloads of money and shooting a lot, training a lot, hiring and doing private training

19:29:31 the_scourge: but that's REALLY fucking expensive and at the time the income streams were trickling a little

19:29:42 the_scourge: less than normal

19:29:42 adlai: heh well some kinds of training, you'll have a hard time finding a private trainer to subject you to them

19:30:05 adlai: dunno which legends you've heard about what they do to 'break' people in elite units

19:30:15 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00094379 = 2.3595 BTC [-] {11}

19:30:33 the_scourge: adlai: for those things, if you can make yourself do them, then you're better off than if batshit insane men force you to do it, under threat of bodily damage

19:31:29 the_scourge: but again, before, i didn't even know what those things were. it's more than just crawling through broken glass for miles. there are a lot of subtle nuances

19:31:52 mircea_popescu: <adlai> you'll have a hard time finding a private trainer to subject you to them << not if you're a woman, wink wink

19:32:01 the_scourge: it's interesting how the israeli culture generally knows about some of these nuances. the bootneck culture lives and breathes them and i don't think i could have bought that for any price

19:32:30 asciilifeform: the_scourge: describe, for the benefit of folks in barbaric faraway lands, some of these nuances.

19:33:07 the_scourge: it's the ability to keep your dignity no matter what.

19:33:37 *: adlai isn't sure 'dignity' is what's at stake

19:33:55 mircea_popescu: the israeli dignitary force.

19:35:06 adlai: asciilifeform: i've heard stories ranging from having your nose broken, to being strung up like a pig over an open fire, to having your 'captors' alternate between putting your gun barrel up your ass and in your mouth - all of this to get you to 'break' and reveal a secret

19:35:20 the_scourge: so, they do things like, you spend 2 weeks on an excercise, march 12 miles into the 'theatre' with 65lbs on your back, dig holes in the ground all night, and then lie in them (saltwater) and defend them, and then do full dignified kit inspection, ready to do a multi-unit ambush/assult all night

19:35:47 adlai: the_scourge is describing approved exercises. i'm describing legends about what happens in elite units outside the approval and regulation of the main army bodies.

19:35:58 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: had to travel << Land on one side of the country ride to the other on occasion even.

19:36:14 the_scourge: adlai: right, for SERE training, it gets a little weird

19:36:32 adlai: as far as approved exercises go, the worst i had was a week spent with a single day's food ration, most of which was spent in full NBC gear

19:36:32 asciilifeform: adlai, the_scourge: all of these sounds like traditional military exercises

19:37:16 PeterL: mircea_popescu: "You do not have, nor you can ever acquire the right to use, copy or distribute this software" << should be "nor can you ever"

19:37:26 the_scourge: erm yah what bootnecks do it public knowledge i mean bear grylls does videos about the weird stuff

19:37:31 mircea_popescu: PeterL right you are.

19:37:33 *: adlai joined the army right after a major push for increased transparency in the ritualized torture of new recruits, so the crazy stuff only happens in crazy units these days

19:37:44 the_scourge: asciilifeform: i was trying to get to the nuances. not the shocking shit

19:38:07 asciilifeform: but who, exactly, finds the ritual torments of recruits - shocking ?

19:38:15 the_scourge: asciilifeform: and i'm doing a bad job of it, to be honest i've never been asked and i've never tried externalizing it

19:38:20 adlai: asciilifeform: mothers.

19:38:26 asciilifeform: adlai: that'd be it

19:38:55 the_scourge: asciilifeform: tormenting nods - not the shocking stuff

19:39:14 asciilifeform: in ru army it is not uncommon for new recruits to be beaten to death

19:39:20 asciilifeform: no one is entirely surprised

19:39:22 asciilifeform: (afaik)

19:39:42 the_scourge: asciilifeform: such 'training' is orthoganal to tactical success

19:39:46 mircea_popescu: rather uncommon by now.

19:39:53 trinque: the_scourge: but directly aligned with being enslaved eh?

19:40:04 adlai: this still happens occasionally, but whenever it's in a regular (non-elite, anybody-can-join-and-who-asked-you-anyways) unit, these days, the unit gets disbanded, officers decomissioned, etc

19:40:18 asciilifeform: the_scourge: tactical success, as i think it well known, is not the only thing expected of a soldier

19:40:35 the_scourge: trinque: not sure if it's a mechanism or a byproduct ;)

19:40:41 asciilifeform: there is also the mechanical aspects of obedience - or unit cohesion, if you like

19:40:49 adlai: well and if you want to prepare your men to die in battle, they better die in training first, no?

19:40:49 asciilifeform: but everyone knows this

19:41:09 trinque: the_scourge: seems the enslavement of soldiers has to do with the necessity of keeping them loyal/taking orders

19:41:16 mircea_popescu: not nearly as orthogonal as all that, for that matter.

19:41:29 the_scourge: asciilifeform: this is true of many places. i was lucky in that i was in a place where they glorified individual thinking, as much as possible

19:41:40 trinque: or... why would so many listen to so few were they not slaves?

19:42:06 nubbins`: asciilifeform so how 'bout running a node on the NEW raspi ;p

19:42:11 *: asciilifeform is not a soldier, but can hardly imagine an army having more use for 'individual thinking' at the platoon level than a dog has for beets

19:42:13 the_scourge: trinque: you are (generally) correct, i was just saying in the russian army, i think some of the weird shit was a result of the slavery

19:42:19 trinque: nubbins`: put a quarter in the swear jar

19:42:24 adlai: drill sergeants on individual thinking: "if there's any doubt, there is no doubt", which eventually became "if you started thinking, stop"

19:42:31 nubbins`: duod you could compile it for win10.

19:42:36 asciilifeform: nubbins`: if you'd like to run node on cpu with closed turdcore running closed turdblob at all times, at 3x the cost of 'pogo' - be my guest

19:42:50 asciilifeform: and for win10 too while at it.

19:42:56 adlai: there's 10 now?

19:43:00 *: adlai needs to get out of emacs someday

19:43:02 nubbins`: ehh who knows

19:43:08 nubbins`: raspi folks are touting it

19:43:09 mircea_popescu: winten!

19:43:17 nubbins`: now sure if it's "here" or "coming"

19:43:20 nubbins`: who the fuck cares anyway?

19:43:27 *: asciilifeform doesn't

19:43:28 the_scourge: trinque: for an example of what i mean, watch the russian throat slitting vidoes... not tactically strong

19:43:31 nubbins`: imagine someone using windows on an embedded device

19:43:34 nubbins`: imagine making that choice

19:43:57 asciilifeform: nubbins`: phun phact. usg, incl. all branches of military, love win-ce.

19:43:57 fluffypony: mircea_popescu: because 9 wasn't good enough!

19:43:58 trinque: having been late to every party in the last decade, msft will now reinvent itself by being late to free!

19:44:19 nubbins`: asciilifeform no big surprise there

19:44:20 mircea_popescu: lmao

19:44:35 mircea_popescu: trinque the thing is tho, by now "free" is wholly captured.

19:44:37 asciilifeform: '9' did not happen because, apparently, 'windows 9' was pattern-matched by various existing code as being in the windows 95, 98, 'me' class

19:44:37 trinque: the_scourge: I think it's a bit of a problem to expect anything other than barbarism from those trained to execute it at industrial scale

19:44:39 nubbins`: i have a handheld gps unit that runs wince

19:44:40 asciilifeform: and therefore skipped

19:44:41 mircea_popescu: so they have little choice

19:44:48 the_scourge: asciilifeform: what's your take on the linuxino boards?

19:44:49 asciilifeform: microshit's denials only cemented the truth of this rumour

19:44:50 nubbins`: it's so shitty you actually have to remove the hyphen

19:44:58 asciilifeform: the_scourge: have not tried personally

19:45:25 the_scourge: other than the chipset, pretty good architecture though?

19:45:34 asciilifeform: the_scourge: 'pogo' was suggested (iirc, i suggested it) purely on account of cost (and the fact of chassis and power supply being included in the cost, pre-assembled)

19:45:53 asciilifeform: 18 usd for 'sata' version, 13 without

19:45:55 asciilifeform: try beating that.

19:46:02 fluffypony: ok

19:46:05 *: fluffypony gets out his whip

19:46:13 the_scourge: asciilifeform: wait, what? what are we making requirements for?

19:46:26 asciilifeform: the_scourge: experiment with a minimal-cost bitcoin node

19:46:28 *: the_scourge loves specing out low-power applications

19:46:44 asciilifeform: running therealbitcoin.org node.

19:46:45 the_scourge: standalone or like that coffeewarmer thing?

19:46:50 asciilifeform: standalone

19:46:54 asciilifeform: mains plug, ethernet.

19:47:12 the_scourge: how would you get an asci into a pogo

19:47:17 the_scourge: does it have sata?

19:47:22 asciilifeform: this is not a theoretical thing, it is happening now

19:47:24 the_scourge: er and that... yah

19:47:51 the_scourge: woah *wanders off to find a wiki somewhere

19:47:53 nubbins`: node, not mining unit 8)

19:48:08 asciilifeform: ('pogoplug' is a small 'arm' device originally sold as a minuature nas. see #b-a logs.)

19:48:09 nubbins`: hm, did i order a pogo?

19:48:21 nubbins`: !s buying from:nubbins`

19:48:22 assbot: 318 results for 'buying from:nubbins`' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buying+from%3Anubbins%60

19:49:08 adlai: using !s to extend your memory of others' words, sure. extend your memory of others' actions, sure. ... but of your own actions!?

19:49:11 nubbins`: oh, no, i did. right on.

19:49:19 the_scourge: yah i was going to buy a pogo for nas work at home. but then i spent $way_too_much_fiat and built a xeon one instead

19:49:26 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: more like a traffic violation (with bigger numbers) than a criminal matter << Basically this is my read of the Erik situation. Govt settled because all they could get was the headline and token cash.

19:49:39 nubbins`: adlai it's all a fog

19:49:59 *: adlai finds himself wishing for !s in irl conversations now

19:50:03 the_scourge: ok i'm looking on that site for a wiki... where can i find out > why nodes, and not miners?

19:50:06 adlai: it's gotten me grepping a lot more though, which is good

19:50:19 nubbins`: the_scourge because mining at the personal level is retarded, but running a node is not.

19:50:28 mircea_popescu: adlai the same process ruined me for books. i'm like "fucking paper no grep"

19:50:42 the_scourge: what's the benefit to running a node? having the whole blockchain?

19:50:46 *: asciilifeform cheats by maintaining a grep-able copy of most books

19:50:52 nubbins`: the_scourge among other things, yes

19:50:53 asciilifeform: to go along with the dead tree

19:50:55 mircea_popescu: the_scourge generally the advice given to noobs is to read the logs for six months to a year.

19:51:01 the_scourge: asciilifeform: greppable?? in what format?

19:51:04 mircea_popescu: think of it as a sort of "crawling through glass".

19:51:09 asciilifeform: the_scourge: generally, ascii

19:51:17 nubbins`: ;;google saw needle pit

19:51:17 gribble: Saw II Needle Pit - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbviirWLCQg; Saw 2 (5/9) Movie CLIP - The Needle Pit (2005) HD - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CAQ0iZKP08; SAW II making of The Needle Pit Scene - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx472xleOOQ

19:51:18 asciilifeform: (well, utf-8. a good deal are in non-latin script)

19:51:23 nubbins`: ^ think of it as this

19:51:36 mircea_popescu: whatever you think of it as, stfu and go do it now.

19:51:41 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: yah cool, i did read through some logs

19:51:43 asciilifeform: what's the benefit to running a node? << start with the fact that if you haven't a node, you aren't using bitcoin.

19:51:45 adlai: my book-buying process (when i'm in an actual bookstore and can flip through the book) is made or broken by the quality of the index

19:52:13 nubbins`: incidentally, that scene is why i stopped watching Saw movies

19:52:16 the_scourge: i'm a bit more interested in asciilifeform's book buying process right now

19:52:17 mircea_popescu: adlai still. even people with good indedices, what are they going to put in there ? can't make it half the book.

19:52:29 asciilifeform: without node, you are stuck asking someone with a node to use it for you (or, more commonly, he merely pretends to)

19:52:39 the_scourge: yah

19:53:00 asciilifeform: the_scourge: learn ru, bookz immediately become something you get for free, instantly, and in grepable plain ascii.

19:53:07 the_scourge: last time i was involved, people had the same concerns, but on the miner side of things

19:53:08 adlai: mircea_popescu: right, it's more that i'll find some really interesting book, get all excited about reading it, and then change my mind when i see a three page index

19:53:58 asciilifeform: adlai: obligatory naggum >>>> http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3242392313780400@naggum.no.html

19:53:59 assbot: Re: "Well, I want to switch over to replace EMACS LISP with Guile." - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1x8GkHh )

19:54:20 mircea_popescu: guile!?

19:54:49 nubbins`: from street fighter

19:55:28 asciilifeform: ^ post was not actually about guile

19:55:46 asciilifeform: (naggum fought a long usenet war against 'scheme' fanatics. 'guile' is a scheme interpreter.)

19:55:56 mircea_popescu: anyway.

19:56:17 adlai: the only good thing i have to say about scheme is that it's abstruse enough that sometimes college students pay me to write it for them :)

19:56:27 mircea_popescu: complex specs are in no sense better. the only thing a very complicated spec shows is that the designer did not understand the overwhelming importance of not specifying.

19:56:39 mircea_popescu: that's the main task of spec work : avoiding doing anything as much as humanly possible.

19:56:56 the_scourge: adlai: 'college students' < doesn't tell us anything

19:57:14 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's how you end up with 'the spec is the implementation' crapolade

19:57:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nope!

19:57:42 adlai: the_scourge: "people who work a part-time job so they can fund another person's part-time job doing their homework"

19:57:43 asciilifeform: not that a spec arrived at via the usual idiot committees is any better

19:57:52 mircea_popescu: that's how you end up with small programs that do clear things and without a userbase that "has come to expect"

19:58:00 asciilifeform: but the only proper spec is a) actual spec b) fits in head c) because was created by actual person

19:58:06 asciilifeform: (or at most, two or three)

19:58:43 mircea_popescu: i defy you to find a spec anywhere in use in the shitstack today that manages to not include things it really has no business specifying.

19:59:26 mircea_popescu: and the problem is even more visible in dictionaries (as definitions are simply the specifications of words). never is it the case a dictionary manages to not include extraneous nonsense in the soup

20:00:23 mircea_popescu: take the http://dictionary.cambridge.org definition of dictionary :

20:00:24 assbot: Cambridge Free English Dictionary and Thesaurus ... ( http://bit.ly/1ApcRQM )

20:00:29 mircea_popescu: "a book containing the words of a language alphabetically arranged, with their meanings etc"

20:00:42 mircea_popescu: leaving aside that there's no etc allowed ; A BOOK ? why the fuck is it a book.

20:01:01 mircea_popescu: it's not a book, it's a list. and it doesn't have to be alphabetically sorted.

20:01:37 mircea_popescu: dictionary = "exhaustive list of all the symbols in a conventional symbolic space, with adnotations."

20:01:37 adlai: a little relevant, and then i must break scalpl manually if it won't do so of its own accord: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOXQo7nURs0

20:01:38 assbot: Experience the power of a bookbook™ - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Apd6Ls )

20:02:20 mircea_popescu: there's not even any need to specify it actually contains definitions. the quality of the definitions distinguishes a good implementation from a bad one and that's all.

20:02:57 asciilifeform: http://pastebin.com/g9JHAAjp

20:02:58 assbot: #b-a student excerpt - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1x8Kr6j )

20:03:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^

20:04:29 *: asciilifeform learns to explain things possibly

20:04:51 mircea_popescu: i see little in there other than "agend desperate to create personal raport as attempts to control teh public venue aren't working for ununderstood reasons that look scary."

20:05:02 the_scourge: i wish i had saved my credit for you asciilifeform

20:05:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i don't much care if all the n00bs are american generals. let'em learn a little.

20:05:57 mircea_popescu: sure, no broblem.

20:06:13 asciilifeform: i only dislike them when they're annoying and illiterate.

20:06:30 mircea_popescu: earnest effort never killed anyone. except of course in soviet russia.

20:07:34 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: true but we all bring different things to the table, i could write a book on NRx history, philosophy etc: that is proof of hard work done

20:07:52 nubbins`: hey now

20:07:59 nubbins`: we all don't bring something to the table

20:08:05 mircea_popescu: "could" is usagitalk.

20:08:15 the_scourge: which by the way, if we ever turn THAT kind of proof (fuck, even literate code commits) into PoW, then it's anybody's game (again) but ... too theoretical

20:08:23 mircea_popescu: nubbins` except lasers.

20:08:31 nubbins`: o o right

20:08:55 the_scourge: does assbot have a glossary? for things like usagitalk?

20:09:06 punkman: yes it's called logs

20:09:07 asciilifeform: the_scourge: the concept of 'proof of work' as it pertains to bitcoin is a very well-defied, mechanical thing. as in, machine-verifiable.

20:09:11 nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> dictionary = "exhaustive list of all the symbols in a conventional symbolic space, with adnotations." <<< why does it have to be exhaustive?

20:09:15 adlai: !s jargon

20:09:16 assbot: 24 results for 'jargon' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=jargon

20:09:21 trinque: asciilifeform: this student appreciates the pasted lesson

20:09:22 asciilifeform: the_scourge: if you do not know this, you are far behind in your studies

20:09:29 mircea_popescu: nubbins` the only thing that makes you go "this isn't a fucking dictionary" is if you look for a word that should be in but isnt

20:09:33 asciilifeform: *defined

20:09:47 nubbins`: by that measure, i've got 3,000-page beasts that are not dictionaries

20:09:54 mircea_popescu: quite.

20:10:18 mircea_popescu: note that they usually explain their limitations. "A dictionary of 1900 London argot" won't contain nixonisms

20:10:21 nubbins`: and a page from a word-a-day calendar with the word "grok" defined, that occasionaly *is* a dictionary

20:10:24 adlai: my dad has not one but TWO dictionaries that require a magnifying glass to read the copy

20:10:41 mircea_popescu: however, the absence of "chthulhu" from there will be regarded as prima facie proof that the word in question was in fact not 1900s london argot.

20:10:43 adlai: old school OEDs

20:10:51 []bot: Bet created: "BTC to rise vs USD in February" http://bitbet.us/bet/1114/

20:10:53 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: jargon studies? i did read the jargon file front to back if that's what you mean. long long time ago though

20:10:59 nubbins`: ;;google dictionary of newfoundland english

20:11:01 gribble: Dictionary of Newfoundland English Online: http://www.heritage.nf.ca/dictionary/; Alphabetical Index: Dictionary of Newfoundland English: http://www.heritage.nf.ca/dictionary/d7ction.html; Search: Dictionary of Newfoundland English: http://www.heritage.nf.ca/dictionary/d8ction.html

20:11:32 mircea_popescu: and now im off to trilemize the dictionary/spec discussion, if anyone wants to be in ask now.

20:11:48 adlai: the_scourge: generally doing a log search via !s or http://search.bitcoin-assets.com will help you find context for words or ideas that seem out of place

20:11:49 assbot: Search the #bitcoin-assets log

20:12:20 nubbins`: mp quote me saying some people don't bring shit to the table

20:12:25 nubbins`: it helps to add context

20:12:35 []bot: Bet placed: 3 BTC for Yes on "BTC to rise vs USD in February" http://bitbet.us/bet/1114/ Odds: 99(Y):1(N) by coin, 99(Y):1(N) by weight. Total bet: 3.1 BTC. Current weight: 99,994.

20:12:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure

20:12:43 mircea_popescu: lol

20:13:33 nubbins`: try to incorporate the word "sleeveen" into the article as well

20:13:42 mircea_popescu: why sleeveen ?!

20:14:06 the_scourge: adlai: thanks i'll start doing that :)

20:14:11 *: nubbins` shrugs

20:14:19 nubbins`: it's in the dictionary of newfoundland english

20:14:45 punkman: asciilifeform: satoshi's miner is valuable for the same reasonas the rest of that piece of shit << is it valuable? I thought the goal was to replace satoshi's hairballs.

20:14:58 nubbins`: and generally when one is called a sleeveen, one does not know how to take the insult, due to being wholly unfamiliar with its definition and usage

20:15:04 asciilifeform: punkman: replace -after- fully understood.

20:15:18 asciilifeform: before can be understood - must be fully pinned down.

20:15:24 nubbins`: ive seen members of parliament call each others sleeveens with impunity because the speaker of the house didn't know wtf it meant.

20:15:55 BingoBoingo: From the New Oxford English Dictionary database https://twitter.com/Blacktric/status/562442413520982016/photo/1 (Maybe exaggeration of source)

20:15:56 assbot: Sarah butts pulls up a chair at the sissy faggot crossdresser tea party. http://t.co/CImMm6APi9

20:15:56 asciilifeform: punkman: try to understand why the pedigreed 0.5.3 has special status.

20:16:14 punkman: asciilifeform: because there is less crap to undo?

20:16:21 punkman: (compared to 0.10)

20:16:24 BingoBoingo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B84yZODIgAASyIc.jpg:large

20:16:25 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ApgupE )

20:17:00 nubbins`: rotophobe sounds better

20:17:48 asciilifeform: punkman: try reading 0.10 some time. much of the original mechanisms - mutilated beyond recognition, or missing entirely.

20:17:58 asciilifeform: it isn't just a matter of crud removal, after 0.8 or so

20:18:34 kakobrekla: punkman alfs argument is coins were worthless hence lesser chance of molestation

20:19:01 asciilifeform: unless satoshi, the enemy, or both - were soothsayers

20:19:23 *: asciilifeform does not include voodoo in engineering analysis

20:19:37 punkman: well that's what we want to do, mutilate the hell out of it. just in different direction.

20:20:18 asciilifeform: punkman: i suspect that 'gold standard' will remain largely satoshi-based for a very long time.

20:20:39 kakobrekla: seems more like purification instead of mutilation

20:20:45 asciilifeform: as in literally, any node that would result in a kg or more of Au equiv. lost if it were to hiccup

20:24:14 punkman: as for moving satoshi cpuminer to different binary, it's gonna need to use the "getwork" avenue, so I'm guessing that'd be a significant rewrite

20:25:13 kakobrekla: have it built in, but optionally as separate patch?

20:26:44 asciilifeform: punkman: hence why i suggested letting it alone for now.

20:26:49 punkman: you know what'd be great? some sort of "bitcoind c++" reading guide.

20:26:55 asciilifeform: punkman: moving it to separate src file? sure

20:27:02 *: kakobrekla is unaware of how badly scattered the mining code is

20:27:21 punkman: for visual inspection https://github.com/extempore/real-bitcoin/commit/a2745ff00110400f50966f92f8d155583eb0a3d8

20:27:23 assbot: first pass mining-snip · a2745ff · extempore/real-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ApiWMW )

20:27:23 asciilifeform: punkman: gnarly. not only cppism but 'boost', 'bdb'

20:27:54 mircea_popescu: there we go.

20:27:54 punkman: asciilifeform: yeah separate file seems like a good idea

20:27:59 asciilifeform: does somebody feel like writing a similar graphical visualizer for our patches ?

20:29:00 mircea_popescu: <punkman> asciilifeform: because there is less crap to undo? << because it's actually before the "bitcoin is important" point of no return.

20:29:19 *: asciilifeform did try to explain this in the devlist

20:29:41 asciilifeform: ( http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-February/000048.html << for record )

20:29:41 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Apjkv4 )

20:30:16 thestringpuller: "C++ 99.5%"

20:30:24 asciilifeform: 0.5% silica gel.

20:30:25 thestringpuller: "C 0.5%"

20:30:28 thestringpuller: lolololol!!!!!!

20:30:41 asciilifeform: and food dyes.

20:31:52 jurov: no corn syrup?

20:36:46 mircea_popescu: hey, is hfcs on spirulina a vegetarian breakfast ?

20:37:14 punkman: why not

20:37:47 punkman: there is that whole "may contain traces of pig cocks" thing, but meh

20:38:20 nubbins`: "The U.S. National Library of Medicine said that spirulina was no better than milk or meat as a protein source, and was approximately 30 times more expensive per gram."

20:38:21 mircea_popescu: spirulina ?

20:38:35 nubbins`: 10/10 would buy

20:38:40 asciilifeform: sea cabbage ?

20:38:44 mircea_popescu: reminds me of that organic paper story.

20:39:03 nubbins`: spirulina seems to be straight-up bacteria

20:39:21 nubbins`: hey, we use 100% real paper

20:39:40 mircea_popescu: i thouyght it was an algae

20:41:36 mircea_popescu: The algae has actually been tested and successfully grown in human urine at 1:180 parts. After 7days, 97% of NH4+-N, 96.5% of total phosphorus (TP) and 85?98% of urea in the urine (ca. 120-diluted) were removed by the microalgae under autotrophic culture (30 ?C).

20:41:46 mircea_popescu: this is just a conspiracy to drink more piss, isn't it.

20:42:12 nubbins`: heh

20:42:15 nubbins`: it's an "algae"

20:42:39 nubbins`: altho apparently this is a misnomer, as it's actually prokaryotic

20:43:38 BingoBoingo: "cyanobacteria" to be specific

20:43:54 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/mps-rant-on-specification-work-as-to-why-all-dictionaries-suck-a-challenge-for-you/

20:44:04 nubbins`: we're reaching dangerous levels of fake bio knowledge

20:44:51 asciilifeform: this is just a conspiracy to drink more piss, isn't it << 'eat recycled food! it's good for the environment, and ok for you!'

20:53:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2187 @ 0.000944 = 2.0645 BTC [-] {12}

20:53:53 asciilifeform: http://qntra.net/2015/02/ubs-groups-cio-wants-to-throw-bitcoin-under-the-buss/#comment-9224 << l0l

20:53:53 assbot: UBS Group's CIO Wants To Throw Bitcoin Under The Buss | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1DuEO73 )

20:54:43 asciilifeform: although what is this preoccupation with 'the unbanked'

20:54:51 mircea_popescu: guess.

20:55:09 mircea_popescu: lecherous if impotent old men have a comparable preoccupation with "the unfucked"

20:55:33 asciilifeform: it's a usg newspeak term that encompasses not only paupers, who have no business in a bank regardless, but also folks resisting bezzle who consciously stay out of bank

20:55:46 asciilifeform: so rather it's like... does english even have a word for 'unchristed' ?

20:55:52 asciilifeform: 'heathen' ?

20:55:59 asciilifeform: from perspective of priests

20:56:11 the_scourge: spirulina is far better than meat than meat as a protein source. fake bio knowledge or not, ask you local biochemist what must be done to meat before your body can digest it :D

20:56:15 asciilifeform: in the sense of 'folks we haven't gotten a good shot at christing yet'

20:56:30 mircea_popescu: incas.

20:56:32 asciilifeform: некрещеные

20:56:36 the_scourge: as for it being more expensive... what a retarded thing to say. even for USG

20:56:40 asciilifeform: aha, i found it...

20:56:42 asciilifeform: unchurched.

20:57:00 trinque: that has to be a new term

20:57:02 trinque: like "unbanked"

20:57:07 asciilifeform: trinque: it isn't

20:57:13 the_scourge: no, unchurched is common parlance

20:57:19 adlai: unchurched, noun: a computer which does not use church numerals

20:57:25 the_scourge: it's part of a jargon from a very different community

20:57:43 asciilifeform: 'webster' claims 1657 as first known usage.

20:57:49 trinque: bleh

20:58:07 asciilifeform: adlai: l0l!!

20:59:01 mircea_popescu: isn't that unchurned ?

20:59:24 the_scourge: Who is Irdial? good argumentation style he has

21:00:05 *: asciilifeform considers getting paper dictionary out of its crate

21:00:13 the_scourge: except for the end. kinda gets distracted by shiny misdirection :)

21:17:58 BingoBoingo: <the_scourge> spirulina is far better than meat than meat as a protein source. fake bio knowledge or not, ask you local biochemist what must be done to meat before your body can digest it :D << Must go in mouth. Even raw I digest fine.

21:18:51 *: BingoBoingo keeps paper dictionaries on shelf

21:20:14 BingoBoingo: <the_scourge> spirulina is far better than meat than meat as a protein source. fake bio knowledge or not, ask you local biochemist what must be done to meat before your body can digest it :D << Also even though "complete" spirulina in low in some more important amino acids

21:22:52 the_scourge: BingoBoingo: second point, valid. however, getting the meat in your mouth is 1/10th the battle

21:23:13 []bot: Bet placed: 1.111 BTC for No on "BTC to top $450 before 31st Mar" http://bitbet.us/bet/1113/ Odds: 12(Y):88(N) by coin, 12(Y):88(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.4523 BTC. Current weight: 89,044.

21:23:15 []bot: Bet placed: 1.75 BTC for No on "BTC to rise vs USD in February" http://bitbet.us/bet/1114/ Odds: 63(Y):37(N) by coin, 63(Y):37(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.85 BTC. Current weight: 99,773.

21:23:15 BingoBoingo: How hard is carve animal, insert pieces in mouth?

21:24:04 the_scourge: i mean, the digestive effort

21:24:34 the_scourge: basically spirulina, the advantage is you have to break down one cellular wall and you have mitochondria, meat is a MUCH harder process

21:24:44 BingoBoingo: Digestive effort is easy. Small intestine gets pumped full of all the right enzymes to process animal protein

21:25:28 the_scourge: and hey i'm of the "catch and eat it raw" line of thought as well, it's just that from a scientific look, spirulina does require a lot less investment

21:25:50 BingoBoingo: Mitochondria is not everything. with steak you pop cellular membrane and start tearing a part long chains of proteins

21:26:07 the_scourge: when we started cooking our food (cause fire was a new technology at some point), our intestine shrunk by over 20%, leaving more energy for our brain

21:27:17 thestringpuller: oooh yay biochemistry

21:27:22 the_scourge: i'm not disagreeing with you. i eat lots of meat. when i lived in a freer countries, i shot most of what i ate. you're preaching to the choir here but there are huge benefits to some of the more accessible forms of protein

21:27:28 thestringpuller: ATP is my favorite biomolecule of all time

21:27:30 BingoBoingo: the_scourge> when we started cooking our food (cause fire was a new technology at some point), our intestine shrunk by over 20%, leaving more energy for our brain << More likely shrunk as meat became nutrient fire or not. Most carnivores have short GI tracts because meat digest faster than comlex plant matter. Cell walls are a bitch to break.

21:28:07 the_scourge: BingoBoingo: yes, moving to meat was a benefit in itself

21:28:11 thestringpuller: ATP Snythase is my favorite protein by far

21:28:46 thestringpuller: obligatory: https://chubbyriceball.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/atp-synthase2.png

21:28:46 the_scourge: thestringpuller: get on topic. if you like biochemistry, tell me what is the cost of breaking spirulina cellular walls. now :)

21:29:26 thestringpuller: it's not about energy exerted in that case it's about the cost to build the proteins/enzymes to break them down :P

21:29:41 thestringpuller: mitochondria are the shit cause they make ATP so efficiently

21:29:58 thestringpuller: and its a fucking mystery why the fuck they even exist

21:30:21 the_scourge: in animals, we know

21:30:46 the_scourge: ever heard about babies who don't have good mitochonria during antenatal development? not good

21:31:21 thestringpuller: i was talking about evolutionary. the selection process of how they end up in cells

21:31:31 thestringpuller: or at least "complex cells"

21:31:33 the_scourge: which is why we're going to get 3-parent babies soon. which is bullshit it's just a mother, father + a different woman's mitochondira

21:34:05 ben_vulpes: <the_scourge> mircea_popescu: yah cool, i did read through some logs << some lol. the point is that you've gotta pick up the variety speak, and that comes from reading logs in near-real-time for six months, not "some" or "a few" or "the ones i found interesting and/or easy"

21:34:14 BingoBoingo: Eh, mitochondria are their own seperate life form. sort of like a libc

21:34:59 the_scourge: ben_vulpes: ah thanks that makes sense. lurking is necessary anywhere you go. i thought he meant dead logs

21:35:13 ben_vulpes: those help too.

21:35:18 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes also in the news, http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhyWeHateLisp

21:35:21 assbot: Why We Hate Lisp ... ( http://bit.ly/18LfXTk )

21:35:33 ben_vulpes: the_scourge: if you do it right, you'll find yourself searching through the dead logs for further context.

21:35:40 ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: news?

21:35:41 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: the_scourge: Not a bad log day to start on http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-12-2013#411276

21:35:41 assbot: Logged on 07-12-2013 13:34:41; bitesak: http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/1s9g0c/mtgox_is_doing_its_instant_replay_bug_again/

21:35:43 the_scourge: also in the news, ward migrated his wiki to fedwiki

21:35:59 mircea_popescu: the_scourge the logs are actually linked in the topic. and the variety speak is http://fraudsters.com/2013/youre-gonna-have-to-learn-that-variety-speak/

21:36:00 assbot: You're gonna have to learn that variety speak pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/18Lg0Pf )

21:36:07 ben_vulpes: the_scourge: not only fedwiki, but it's also got all sorts of css and javascript

21:36:11 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: scouting around

21:36:22 ben_vulpes: ward cunningham's a cool dude

21:36:33 ben_vulpes: seen it all, still works in the trenches

21:36:40 the_scourge: ben_vulpes: if you know an implimentation of fedwiki that doesn't have js, let me know

21:36:54 ben_vulpes: the_scourge: i don't fuck with any of that stuff.

21:37:00 ben_vulpes: collaborating with randos is for the birds.

21:37:03 the_scourge: ben_vulpes: i've been in on his weekly hangouts a few times, very very cool times

21:37:28 the_scourge: ben_vulpes: dude i was working on it when i still believed in randos. a long time ago

21:37:35 ben_vulpes: i infrequently find myself drinking in his proximity. mostly f(how often i'm at new relic)

21:38:01 the_scourge: ben_vulpes: plus, the technology could probably be adapted for closed communities

21:38:13 the_scourge: ben_vulpes: what's youre connection to newrelic?

21:38:45 mircea_popescu: diff between c2 and fedwiki is that well... fedwiki dun work.

21:38:55 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: Eh, mitochondria are their own seperate life form. sort of like a libc

21:38:59 thestringpuller: << stop blowing my mind

21:39:03 ben_vulpes: the_scourge: they have an office nearby at which i drink occasionally

21:39:49 mircea_popescu: is that citizen global thing ?

21:40:01 BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: It's true. Mitochondria have their own different DNA from their hosts and their hosts use them as a dependency

21:40:30 the_scourge: ben_vulpes: i like the branch and fork model. and we do need a non-code collaboration toolset built around that model. and we know that model works for closed communities, dictatorships and everything else

21:41:21 mircea_popescu: who's we ?

21:41:29 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJyUtbn0O5Y << harvard being somewhat useful rather than handing out A's to the females who are best in bed.

21:41:54 ben_vulpes: <the_scourge> which by the way, if we ever turn THAT kind of proof (fuck, even literate code commits) into PoW, then it's anybody's game (again) but ... too theoretical << bwahahahat?

21:42:30 thestringpuller: different cellular structures animated realistically, but colorized for distinction

21:43:15 lobbes: I leave to code for an hour and the conversation has moved from grepping, to dictionary specs, to biochemistry. Several of the reasons I love this channel

21:43:40 mircea_popescu: no nudes today tho ;/

21:44:01 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes a whole lot of "hei guise, wheel!"

21:44:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 193996 @ 0.00038159 = 74.0269 BTC [-] {2}

21:45:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19154 @ 0.00038415 = 7.358 BTC [+]

21:46:46 nudebot: http://ww2.nudesportsblog.com/updates/lesbiansportvideos/elena_nadia_01b_big.jpg

21:46:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kp8tB6 )

21:47:42 ben_vulpes: to the logs witcha, the_scourge

21:49:01 BingoBoingo: Ah, the weird old days http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-12-2013#411327

21:49:01 assbot: Logged on 07-12-2013 16:09:18; dexX7: looks they are serious with "50 new listings in one year"

21:49:20 mircea_popescu: which meanwhile exploded scam was this ?

21:50:26 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Hovelcocks

21:50:48 mircea_popescu: o i thought btcetc

21:50:58 mircea_popescu: ;;seen dexx7

21:50:58 gribble: dexx7 was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 33 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 5 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <dexX7> i think i can up myself

21:51:48 the_scourge: ben_vulpes: what did you find funny about my PoRealWork comment?

21:53:14 BingoBoingo: So... Ulbricht trial is already done with closing statements...

21:53:58 mircea_popescu: bets on how long jury takes ?

21:54:55 BingoBoingo: Hard to say. Instructions delivered tomorrow. Today was also first day of defense testimony...

21:56:23 mircea_popescu: well if it were easy to say it wouldn't make much of a bet.

21:56:57 BingoBoingo: Right.

21:57:44 thestringpuller: is there a bitbet for if he gets convicted or not?

21:58:11 mircea_popescu: lol that's not hard to say.

21:59:18 BingoBoingo: I'd consider putting 0.5 BTC on under 3 hours. Worried about holdout juror or jurors.

22:00:04 thestringpuller: lol "The jurors are instructed not to look at bitbet" - says the Judge.

22:00:14 mircea_popescu: ima put a btc on "over 6 hours", how about that.

22:01:18 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I'll take that with 1 BTC for under six hours.

22:01:34 thestringpuller: oooh over under

22:01:40 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo make it.

22:02:19 asciilifeform: watch preet let him slip, just to win the bet.

22:02:37 mircea_popescu: yeah right.

22:02:48 asciilifeform: massively-distributed bakshish, lol

22:02:51 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you can even blatantly abuse your journalistic position to make moar comedy gold.

22:02:55 thestringpuller: super retarded judge if bitbet influences the trial

22:03:10 thestringpuller: or more just "powerless judge"

22:03:19 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: http://dpaste.com/1FQFE2M

22:03:20 assbot: dpaste: 1FQFE2M ... ( http://bit.ly/1KpaL38 )

22:03:20 mircea_popescu: they still seclude juries neh ?

22:03:27 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo make it i mean on bitbet

22:03:47 mircea_popescu: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-30/inheriting-grandma-s-house-comes-with-tax-bill-under-obama-plan <<< this is of particular interest to adult bitcoiners.

22:03:49 assbot: Inheriting Grandma’s House Comes With Tax Under Obama Plan - Bloomberg Business ... ( http://bit.ly/1KpaSfd )

22:03:49 thestringpuller: they try to, hence what I said about judge in future may instruct juries to stay away from bitbet

22:04:13 mircea_popescu: specifically : if you bought 1k btc at $10, and you die when it's $1000, usg wants about 400`000, in usd.

22:04:36 mircea_popescu: then, should your inheritor sell it when it's $10`000, usg wants further capital gains tax. not on 9k, but on $9990

22:05:08 thestringpuller: sounds like a scam

22:06:45 mircea_popescu: anything to prevent that ol' capital acumulation thing.

22:07:09 thestringpuller: this is why rednecks bury gold here in the confederacy

22:07:14 mircea_popescu: anyway, best gift for bitcoin he could have ever made.

22:07:32 mircea_popescu: i can scarcely comprehend why anyone would leave his heirs anything but btc.

22:07:37 mircea_popescu: it is untaxable, after all.

22:08:06 thestringpuller: cause the executor of the will is a scammer?

22:08:20 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: submitted, funding tx sent

22:09:10 *: BingoBoingo hopes his Austrialian Open bad luck streak ends

22:09:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: big fat news, usa is simply moving to the taxation system customary in most of the orcish world - levy exorbitantly high tax, and hope it makes up for spotty collection

22:10:25 thestringpuller: Don't you get sent to jail in the US if you don't pay taxes for X amount of time.

22:10:33 asciilifeform: (mircea_popescu probably knows something about the argentinian tax, even if he has not seen it in person)

22:10:34 thestringpuller: I.e. wesley snipes

22:10:40 thestringpuller: IE Lauryn Hill

22:11:26 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: ianal, but it is not the mere act of not paying, but what they consider to be an attempt to weasel out of having the tax assessed or collected, that constitutes the offence in the usa penal code

22:11:26 thestringpuller: that's how they got Al Capone. "Tax Evasion"

22:12:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform personally, i dun knowmuch an' i dun care much.

22:12:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik they fit the standard orc pattern.

22:12:44 mircea_popescu: im sure they murder whoever dares open a pizzeria.

22:12:52 mircea_popescu: since i'm not in the pizzeria business... fuckall i care.

22:12:53 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: the price of US passport is paying income tax wherever you live.

22:13:07 thestringpuller: US passport: Tax Curse, -10 from wealth

22:13:10 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: just like north kr.

22:13:56 the_scourge: i.e. peter schiff's dad

22:14:08 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: always portraying the state as the retarded mafia

22:14:21 asciilifeform: afaik no one expat has yet been brought back in a cage for not paying. but i'm told that certain foreign banks will avoid you if they learn you have u.s. citizenship.

22:14:23 mircea_popescu: well it is...

22:14:29 cazalla: how long until tax man comes to you and says, i'm a reasonable guy, i'll accept payment for your taxes in bitcoin?

22:14:54 mircea_popescu: quo warranto?

22:15:02 mircea_popescu: does he have like a gpg signed thing from ben_vulpes or something ?

22:15:41 cazalla: i'm not implying he would have the authority, just when taxman might begin to believe he does

22:15:51 asciilifeform: http://www.scientificgamer.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/civ1.jpg << obligatory

22:15:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/18Ll85N )

22:16:09 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i thought they'd flag your passport if you get IRS audited and charged for evasion? (though I guess this is more a dice roll if it occurs to an individual)

22:16:24 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: if charged for so much as jaywalking

22:16:49 mircea_popescu: cazalla im sure it'll be something like "bitpay paid 500k usd to franchise owner" thing

22:16:51 thestringpuller: chetty was saying she was still paying US taxes (or maybe I recally incorrectly)

22:17:01 BingoBoingo: ;;tslb

22:17:12 gribble: Time since last block: 17 minutes and 16 seconds

22:18:02 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yo, if this bet stays open until the fucking 6th, and it ends at 100k...

22:18:08 mircea_popescu: it'll just get flooded.

22:18:31 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: the basic reason why u.s. tax is generally easy to enforce, is that most u.s. folk who have money are rich specifically in usg-controlled scrip or pseudo-realestate or the like

22:18:36 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I have no idea for a better spec.

22:18:36 asciilifeform: that can be confiscated by flipping a switch

22:18:40 mircea_popescu: k sec

22:18:59 BingoBoingo: Given BitBet's minimum time constraints

22:19:11 danielpbarron: thestringpuller> US passport: Tax Curse, -10 from wealth << why i can't attend conference

22:19:20 asciilifeform: so, the chump can travel wherever he wants, to zimbabwe if he likes, but if we were to rock the boat - a bureaucrat flips the switch, and -bam- - he's a pauper.

22:19:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform worked pre btc anyway.

22:20:11 mircea_popescu: o look at that, the tax break for repatriating corp profits? aolso gone.

22:20:28 mircea_popescu: i guess butthurt at it not having worked at all because well... nobody wants their money inside the beast.

22:20:43 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHU6YLC0RvE

22:20:44 assbot: FALSA AMNISTIE - JEAN MOSCOPOL - ANTICOMUNIST - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/18LlDwN )

22:21:12 []bot: Bet created: "Silk Road Deliberations Over 6 Hours" http://bitbet.us/bet/1115/

22:21:49 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Silk Road Deliberations Over 6 Hours" http://bitbet.us/bet/1115/ Odds: 0(Y):100(N) by coin, 0(Y):100(N) by weight. Total bet: 1 BTC. Current weight: 100,000.

22:22:14 BingoBoingo: !up pete_dushenski

22:22:41 pete_dushenski: ty bb

22:25:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: worked pre btc << still works on all but the l33t35t d00dz, who don't need a bank for anything, are entirely untainted by usa-juice, etc

22:26:07 mircea_popescu: you can use banks just fine.

22:27:22 asciilifeform: bank gets a call - 'mr. x is a dangerous terrorist. is this a terrorist bank?'

22:27:57 mircea_popescu: caller gets response, "nem tudom"

22:28:10 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Russian Index RTS to drop under 500 before March 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1109/ Odds: 26(Y):74(N) by coin, 35(Y):65(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.0574767 BTC. Current weight: 51,537.

22:28:11 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Gold to top $1500 before 16 May" http://bitbet.us/bet/1106/ Odds: 26(Y):74(N) by coin, 28(Y):72(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.3 BTC. Current weight: 82,128.

22:28:14 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $100 before April" http://bitbet.us/bet/1108/ Odds: 16(Y):84(N) by coin, 17(Y):83(N) by weight. Total bet: 11.47696636 BTC. Current weight: 71,999.

22:28:24 mircea_popescu: respectively "please direct any inquiries to the central bank of china / putin / etc"

22:29:25 asciilifeform: unless account holder is high in putin-wot, he might begin to have problems, no ?

22:29:53 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> does he have like a gpg signed thing from ben_vulpes or something ? << pardon?

22:30:34 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Foundation tax receipt

22:30:49 ben_vulpes: we don't issue such.

22:31:08 ben_vulpes: one of those zero, one, infinity things.

22:31:22 ben_vulpes: if enforcement's impossible...don't enforce.

22:31:53 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for Yes on "Silk Road Deliberations Over 6 Hours" http://bitbet.us/bet/1115/ Odds: 50(Y):50(N) by coin, 50(Y):50(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.1 BTC. Current weight: 100,000.

22:32:04 hanbot: good to know in case taxman shows up claiming otherwise :D

22:33:05 asciilifeform: i've said it before, but will say again, if 'humane' paper tax collection falls apart (and it seems that eventually must) - the old-fashioned door-to-door shakedowns will return

22:33:07 *: ben_vulpes wonders if this ddosser can be coerced into attacking arbitrary people in arbitrary channels

22:33:25 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: poverty looks good on me.

22:33:33 BingoBoingo: Or arbitrary things

22:34:40 asciilifeform: the algorithm for sniffing out faux poverty is also not a deep secret, nor especially new

22:35:01 asciilifeform: 'mr x, you're a registered pauper, but is that a first class air ticket you're holding? where'dyagetthat'

22:36:00 asciilifeform: the above is not a statement of 'history is a boot stomping on a human face forever', but a testable hypothesis about actual near-future observables.

22:36:20 hanbot: was a funny case of that in romania. prime minister, very corrupt, "from my auntie!"

22:36:36 asciilifeform: 'let's meet the auntie'

22:36:37 pete_dushenski: never hurts to have a rich uncle

22:36:58 asciilifeform: in the orcish world, if you've paid your bakshis / filed mircea_popescu-style 38 lawsuits against city hall / etc. - you're golden

22:36:59 hanbot: auntie had passed...

22:37:02 trinque: w-w-won it in vegas?

22:37:36 pete_dushenski: found on floor with name on it, hey ppl win the lottery all the time!

22:38:02 pete_dushenski: hanbot or in tahiti without cell or email

22:38:25 hanbot: huh?

22:38:56 trinque: better to just give unto bezzledom what is bezzle

22:39:06 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2014#546880 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2014#546881 << obligatory

22:39:06 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2014 02:05:11; asciilifeform: 'american does not believe the man in the uniform to be a bandit, with whom one can come to an understanding. he believes him to be a robot, who must be feared. american law enforcers are able to, by pressing on the keyboard of a multitude of laws and regulations, 'transmute' the most insignificant peccadillo into a monstrous deed. FBI did not need to beat up Monica or toss into her purse heroin or am

22:39:06 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2014 02:05:11; asciilifeform: The giving of false testimony - a crime, seen in Russia as small change - in the U.S. can lead to 26 years of prison. The fact that, in essence, the matter concerned a young girl who did not wish to admit her love affair with a married man, interests no one in the U.S. The principle of the machine is: do it [the crime] - receive. [consequences] the machine is merciless and incorruptible.'

22:42:53 pete_dushenski: @nntaleb: In 80s terrorists captured 4 Russians in Beirut.Russians kidnapped 10 relatives of terrorists, sent body parts.Nobody since messed wRussians

22:43:21 asciilifeform: really, nobody?

22:43:26 trinque: not once

22:43:29 pete_dushenski: usa locks up girls, refuses to "negotiate with terrorists"

22:43:50 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform well ... chechens

22:44:13 pete_dushenski: pt 2 of taleb's note was "in leb/syr"

22:44:41 pete_dushenski: more digestible when the claim is geographically isolated

22:45:54 asciilifeform: trinque: better to just give unto bezzledom what is bezzle << consider the implications of the well-known u.s. court case Wickard v. Filburn.

22:46:19 asciilifeform: which is, as good as any, a demarcation point for the birth of modern usg

22:46:34 asciilifeform: the one that lays claim to every drop of water in the sea, every grain of sand on land, etc.

22:47:03 pete_dushenski: ;;later tell peterl http://bablogs.btcscoop.com/ << borked

22:47:03 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/18LoYMm )

22:47:11 gribble: The operation succeeded.

22:47:15 asciilifeform: the case was resolved in favour of 'subject, you are meat and we own you'

22:47:25 trinque: asciilifeform: right, I assume they can and will warp reality to suit them as needed

22:47:38 asciilifeform: there was no rebellion, note, then, when it was vastly more realistic

22:47:40 asciilifeform: than today

22:48:50 asciilifeform: nor was there anything more than picketing when fdr pissed on ww1 vets demanding their pensions

22:49:24 asciilifeform: well, first hoover, then fdr

22:49:29 asciilifeform: but this is well known.

22:49:45 trinque: this brings to mind again my (hardly novel) thought that the usg is a shattered sovereign, rather than the absence of one

22:49:46 pete_dushenski: for the greater good(tm)

22:50:54 trinque: in that the ruler clearly always has the power to sort of speak declaratively about reality, and he/it will be mostly believed, or at least ignored

22:52:05 trinque: if that exists, in other words, humans are wired to mostly receive their understanding of what is real from authority, this mode of "state" is exceptionally irresponsible

22:52:18 trinque: did any of that parse?

22:53:02 pete_dushenski: sure, except for how it might be seen to be "irresponsible"

22:53:17 pete_dushenski: people are religious

22:53:27 trinque: pete_dushenski: this form of govt does not broadcast a coherent model of reality

22:53:29 pete_dushenski: whether they pray to the state or science or the church is a matter of fashion

22:53:40 pete_dushenski: nor can they

22:53:42 trinque: pete_dushenski: I am saying that this religion is irresponsible

22:53:43 pete_dushenski: nor can anyone

22:54:29 pete_dushenski: it's not clear to me that reality is digestible below a certain level of intelligence

22:54:50 pete_dushenski: what's reality? it's all perspective

22:54:52 trinque: pete_dushenski: I think we'd agree then. I'm saying the OS that's being distributed is a mangled hack

22:55:04 trinque: sure one can't apprehend reality in some objective way

22:55:16 pete_dushenski: it's a pretty naive os to be sure

22:55:17 trinque: but some confucianism for the peasants never hurt

22:55:42 pete_dushenski: this os is definitely in the first! biggest! best! vein

22:56:02 pete_dushenski: we all have to believe in something, some moreso than others

22:56:19 trinque: there was a moment where I realized my whole model of my life, experience, etc was that, a model

22:56:21 trinque: yep

22:56:24 pete_dushenski: the less critical capacity, the more articles of faith

22:56:26 trinque: one cannot just give up modeling at that point

22:56:59 pete_dushenski: trinque: there was a moment where I realized my whole model of my life, experience, etc was that, a model << curious, when ?

22:57:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform door to door shakedowns are incompatible with the present day usg.

22:57:18 mircea_popescu: hanbot lol nastase. totally. he did end up in jail tho.

22:57:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i still don't understand why

22:57:37 mircea_popescu: btw : he only ended up in jail because he was a politician, and poiliticians exclusively are required to DECLARE their fortune.

22:57:50 mircea_popescu: otherwise ordinary romanian can just go "where from ? your mother paid me."

22:58:23 pete_dushenski: lol

22:58:55 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> which is, as good as any, a demarcation point for the birth of modern usg << more like the birthplace of the central planning element thereof. "we affirm congress has the authority to central plan economic activity"

22:59:00 mircea_popescu: the fed was similarly, except re finance.

22:59:01 trinque: pete_dushenski: I just spent a long time sitting once upon a time

22:59:40 mircea_popescu: centralism is ever the temptation of the stupid and the lazy, for very good game theoretic reasons : they know that greatness won't be oozing out of them personally any time soon. perhaps if it were all put into this box then it may ooze it ?

23:00:19 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> well, first hoover, then fdr << the pissing on veterans is a universal sport. this is why being a soldier is dumb, being a mercenary is better.

23:01:00 asciilifeform: i can think of at least four separate incidents where usg armies loudly, publicly, beat and often fired on assemblies of veterans

23:01:01 mircea_popescu: <trinque> sure one can't apprehend reality in some objective way << if this is true, how come gavin's not getting what he wants ?

23:01:05 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu centralism would be that eretz israel geese in a barrel thing again

23:01:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why to which point ?

23:01:29 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski so it would.

23:02:05 trinque: mircea_popescu: if there is an objective mode of being, I am further down the mountain than it

23:02:23 mircea_popescu: not the same as you said before :)

23:02:47 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: showing that the grunts were, practically speaking, automata who will do precisely as instructed.

23:03:17 mircea_popescu: well for that matter the pioneers fired on the british.

23:03:18 asciilifeform: whatever 'spirit of rebellion' there was in usa, was exterminated in civil war.

23:03:23 mircea_popescu: all a matter of context, who fires on whom

23:04:26 mircea_popescu: https://bitbet.us/bet/1115/silk-road-deliberations-over-6-hours/ << if anyone wants into this, bout 12 or so hours left.

23:04:27 assbot: BitBet - Silk Road Deliberations Over 6 Hours :: 1.04 B (50%) on Yes, 1.06 B (50%) on No | closing in 1 day 55 minutes | weight: 100`000 (100`000 to 100`000) ... ( http://bit.ly/18Lr9j3 )

23:04:46 asciilifeform: a leap of conjecture - modern usg began to take shape once the last folks who remembered pre-civilwar usa were gone.

23:05:11 mircea_popescu: why do you think memory is important ?

23:05:26 asciilifeform: just like today's phase transition in decay largely consists of the pre-60s greybeards exiting the stage.

23:05:41 asciilifeform: not memory specifically

23:05:44 mircea_popescu: a woman that remembers her time as queen of sheeba and a sow that remembers the greatness of mud make just as good mates for a hog mounting humiliation porn thing.

23:06:42 asciilifeform: in a seriously broken culture, generation n does not really pass to gen. n+1 the sense of being part of the same thing

23:06:44 asciilifeform: or whatnot

23:07:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: or else from where comes 'homo redditicus' ?

23:07:13 asciilifeform: orlov refers to him as 'homo sapiens lite'

23:07:19 mircea_popescu: from their mother's cunts ?

23:07:23 mircea_popescu: children are born grimy, what.

23:07:41 BingoBoingo: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BARBECUED_HIGHWAY_CHICKEN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

23:07:43 assbot: News from The Associated Press ... ( http://bit.ly/18LrwKe )

23:08:42 mircea_popescu: aahahaha

23:09:31 mircea_popescu: waiting for the milk + cookies crash

23:10:40 asciilifeform: 'Joe Angelo, a decorated hero from the war who saved Patton's life, approached him the day after to sway him. Rather than accept and listen to the man whom he had decorated himself for his bravery under fire, Patton coldly rejected him and stated "I do not know this man. Take him away and under no circumstances permit him to return."' (pediwik)

23:11:06 cazalla: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trinity-students-think-bitcoin-regulator-could-put-business-185046897--finance.html#kESZasb "They believe a Bitcoin ?credit-check? database, in which potential business partners could scope each other out, could be the answer." lol

23:11:08 assbot: These Trinity students think they may have solved the Bitcoin problem - Yahoo News UK ... ( http://bit.ly/1uVnaoC )

23:11:12 trinque: mircea_popescu: you have a hell of a way of provoking a cascade of thought/reflection with a single question

23:11:46 mircea_popescu: i sit on the gigantic shoulders of logs.

23:11:46 trinque: perhaps we find objective truth when we bump into it, so to speak

23:11:55 asciilifeform: cazalla: lol, the black/white-lists crapolade never ever goes away.

23:12:03 mircea_popescu: right ? whether ou find it or not, it's always there to fuck oyu over the mouth. with a stick.

23:12:11 trinque: gavin can't have shamcoin because bitcoin does not work that way, too bad

23:12:56 cazalla: asciilifeform, anything ever come of yifu's black/white list?

23:12:58 mircea_popescu: trinque but "how do you know", after all, if opinion enacted reality (or properly, if there were no objective reality past opinions) then his gambit would actually work.

23:13:05 asciilifeform: cazalla: no idea

23:14:09 asciilifeform: trinque: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#986522

23:14:09 assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 19:43:16; asciilifeform: chetty: ''Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection: 'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what o

23:16:31 pete_dushenski: cazalla not that i've heard of either

23:16:34 trinque: this calls into question whether the interaction between sovereign and subject is one of the dispensation of a (hopefully better) OS, as I stated, or whether he is rather to be a force of nature which is so, regardless of what winblows they're running

23:16:49 mircea_popescu: whats an os anyway

23:17:37 trinque: as I think about it, mostly a fairy tale that extends the reach of foot-soldiers to nightmares

23:17:50 asciilifeform: trinque: and the whole concept of everybody getting their mental firmware from the palace, rather than from organic hierarchy that's been around for millenia, is a 20th century evil

23:18:00 trinque: I was thinking of it in terms of "go read these books" and "you know, don't steal that guy's potatoes"

23:18:29 trinque: asciilifeform: yep, that would make sense

23:18:42 trinque: "the state is everywhere"

23:19:19 mircea_popescu: yeah srsly.

23:19:43 mircea_popescu: exactly antitethical to how wots work, incidentally. because coherence is the only possible attacxk against a wot.

23:19:56 *: asciilifeform digs in log, fails to find, mircea_popescu's line about state-imposed star topologies

23:20:09 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/advanced-wot-course-how-the-wot-is-attacked-and-how-it-defends-itself/ is prolly too opaque

23:20:09 assbot: Advanced WoT course : how the WoT is attacked, and how it defends itself. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/18LsZQQ )

23:20:40 mircea_popescu: but the idea being that sybil attacks succeed when and only when the nodes are too agreefull.

23:20:40 pete_dushenski: yifu seemed to go completely dark after that escapade

23:21:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform recurring theme on fraudsters and here, but most recently http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=30-01-2015#998181

23:21:35 assbot: Logged on 30-01-2015 05:50:13; mircea_popescu: the socialist state does not want a normally functioning society, but instead this stellar configuration where the state is at the center,

23:21:47 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha ^^^ here we go.

23:22:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00094254 = 1.8851 BTC [-] {9}

23:22:39 mircea_popescu: good companion for http://fraudsters.com/2015/why-representative-democracy-doesnt-work-and-doesnt-make-sense/

23:22:40 assbot: Why "representative democracy" doesn't work and doesn't make sense pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/18LtkTG )

23:23:08 asciilifeform: we're still at a point where a great many people alive would need a time machine tour to be convinced of anything like civilization being possible without state-at-center

23:23:18 mircea_popescu: "why vote for women ? because if women spend more time talking to the state and less talking to their husbands, the state will be stronger and society weaker"

23:23:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, this was a strongly held byzantine notion, too.

23:23:57 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: certainly. it wasn't like it requires the transistor.

23:24:20 mircea_popescu: all it requires is other peopel's wealth.

23:24:53 mircea_popescu: to this day i suspect xiaoping's plan was exactly 1. industrialise through giving away the products to the west. within half a century you will have the industry and they will have collapsed.

23:25:02 asciilifeform: 'Thirty years ago the Blimp class was already losing its vitality. The middle-class families celebrated by Kipling, the prolific lowbrow families whose sons officered the army and navy and swarmed over all the waste places of the earth from the Yukon to the Irrawaddy, were dwindling before 1914. The thing that had killed them was the telegraph. In a narrowing world, more and more governed from Whitehall, there was every year l

23:25:03 asciilifeform: ess room for individual initiative. Men like Clive, Nelson, Nicholson, Gordon would find no place for themselves in the modern British Empire. By 1920 nearly every inch of the colonial empire was in the grip of Whitehall. Well-meaning, over-civilized men, in dark suits and black felt hats, with neatly rolled umbrellas crooked over the left forearm, were imposing their constipated view of life on Malaya and Nigeria, Mombasa and

23:25:03 asciilifeform: Mandalay. The one-time empire builders were reduced to the status of clerks, buried deeper and deeper under mounds of paper and red tape. In the early twenties one could see, all over the Empire, the older officials, who had known more spacious days, writhing impotently under the changes that were happening. From that time onwards it has been next door to impossible to induce young men of spirit to take any part in imperial a

23:25:10 asciilifeform: dministration. And what was true of the official world was true also of the commercial. The great monopoly companies swallowed up hosts of petty traders. Instead of going out to trade adventurously in the Indies one went to an office stool in Bombay or Singapore. And life in Bombay or Singapore was actually duller and safer than life in London. Imperialist sentiment remained strong in the middle class, chiefly owing to family

23:25:15 asciilifeform: tradition, but the job of administering the Empire had ceased to appeal. Few able men went east of Suez if there was any way of avoiding it.'

23:25:17 mircea_popescu: best one point plan for world domination i ever heard. plus it worked.

23:25:18 asciilifeform: (orwell's 'lion and the unicorn')

23:25:22 asciilifeform: yes, long, but dropped here for record.

23:25:48 asciilifeform: telegraph - major boost to the disease.

23:26:02 mircea_popescu: only in a sense.

23:26:03 asciilifeform: it made palatial micromanagement of an empire at least thinkable.

23:26:13 asciilifeform: before - it would have been caligula-grade lunacy

23:26:14 mircea_popescu: early internet - boost of disease, mature internet - cure

23:27:29 mircea_popescu: consider the doomed nature of centralism. so louis defeudalized france, forced the nobles away from their estates and relevancy, captive at versailles. fifty years later his heir was being decapitated, and the system collapsed.

23:27:43 mircea_popescu: a system, mind you, that had supported nine centuries of previous monarchs just fine

23:28:01 trinque: I read that article re: representative democracy, but it's clarified in the context of the current conversation

23:28:03 mircea_popescu: through horror of all type , famine, plague, rebellion, invasion, everything possible, thinkable and unthinkjable

23:28:13 mircea_popescu: all it took was merlin i mean mazarin

23:29:01 trinque: this experience of finding oneself to be using old concepts to try to label new data in the present was sort of what I was trying to describe with the meditation experience

23:29:01 mircea_popescu: and i'll take any bet that feudalism as promoted by b-a will take the piss, vinegar and cockroach guts out of any alternative, startingwith the usg

23:29:11 mircea_popescu: and ending with whatever the chinese will come up with at the final end of it.

23:30:07 trinque: I think sitting there I realized the fact of my own existence for the first time

23:30:21 trinque: as a sort of direct, sensory thing

23:30:29 mircea_popescu: lol careful not to fall in.

23:30:34 trinque: rather than a wad of concepts I believed

23:30:41 asciilifeform: !b 4

23:30:42 assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/215PTRS.txt )

23:32:23 *: asciilifeform enjoys mircea_popescu's optimism but cannot as easily partake in it, from the prison-without-doors

23:32:28 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://fraudsters.com/2013/if-youve-seen-that-many-pornstars/

23:32:28 assbot: If you've seen that many pornstars... pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1uVq24S )

23:32:34 mircea_popescu: "This, I submit, is on its own sufficient proof that pornography is a wholesome, socially representative activity, whereas both cinematography and fashion are (by comparison at least) pernicious and very, very false. And that which is false can never be art, irrespective of all pretense to the contrary."

23:34:57 asciilifeform: related: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2015/02/quite-few-of-those-currently-inhabiting.html

23:34:58 assbot: ClubOrlov: No escape ... ( http://bit.ly/1uVqnEC )

23:38:51 asciilifeform: ^ this article exemplifies everything i personally most dislike about herr orlov.

23:39:29 asciilifeform: why, i wonder, did he pick the indians as an example of 'the true path' and not, say, a stray dog ?

23:39:51 asciilifeform: he knows full well that it is every bit as possible to transform from what a civilized man is to a stray dog as to the indian.

23:40:09 asciilifeform: orlov himself is in no hurry to trade his computer for a spear.

23:40:19 mircea_popescu: he probably got a little horny for the nude girl at dating age

23:40:22 mircea_popescu: not so for any dog.

23:40:44 mircea_popescu: ;;google beautiful savage

23:40:45 gribble: Beautiful Savage Magazine — Art, Fashion and Lifestyle Magazine: http://beautifulsavage.com/; Submission Guidelines » Beautiful Savage: http://beautifulsavage.com/submissions/; Beautiful Savage | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BEAUT1FULSAVAGE

23:41:04 mircea_popescu: hm mybad

23:41:07 mircea_popescu: ;;google nubile savage

23:41:07 gribble: Main/Nubile Savage - Television Tropes & Idioms: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NubileSavage; Playing With/Nubile Savage - Television Tropes & Idioms: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/PlayingWith/NubileSavage; The Nubile Savage | History Today: http://www.historytoday.com/michael-sturrna/nubile-savage

23:41:10 asciilifeform: orlov plugs straight into 4+ centuries of 'noble savage' crap

23:41:27 BingoBoingo: http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2015/01/mo_man_arrested_after_telling_black_waitress_he_wanted_to_show_her_where.html

23:41:28 assbot: Mo. Man Arrested After Telling Black Waitress He Wanted to Show Her Where He ‘Hung’ Her Grandpa - The Root ... ( http://bit.ly/18LvNxo )

23:42:52 asciilifeform: 'Tommy Dean Gaa, of Maryville, reportedly told the waitress, after she asked if he wanted wheat or white toast, that he was prejudiced and therefore would take white toast, according to a probable cause statement viewed by the Maryville Daily Forum.'

23:43:03 asciilifeform: obligatory sov. joke:

23:43:58 asciilifeform: winnie pooh walks into a butcher's shop, asks 'got mortadella' ? answer, 'sure' winnie pooh draws a submachinegun and spins round, round, round with it, mowing down everything that moves: 'for piiigleet!'

23:44:10 mircea_popescu: every asshole in a dinner is newsworthy now ?

23:45:04 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: LOL

23:45:18 thestringpuller: I'm telling you. Quit your day job and become stand up comedian

23:45:49 mircea_popescu: dude could be a pretty rand standup comedian.

23:46:01 mircea_popescu: rad*

23:46:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you ever tried it ?

23:46:40 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Apparently. "Outrage fatigue"

23:47:05 asciilifeform: mortadella? sure

23:47:16 BingoBoingo: I imagine asciilifeform's object as similar to kakobrekla's objection. Involves going outside.

23:48:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform stand up comedy

23:48:01 asciilifeform: ^

23:48:08 mircea_popescu: it's usually practiced indoors...

23:48:11 asciilifeform: not unless everyday life counts.

23:48:14 mircea_popescu: it's like going to a bar, except free drinks

23:48:17 asciilifeform: (and where i live, it might)

23:48:31 asciilifeform: 'all the world's a stage' or how did it go.

23:50:10 mircea_popescu: nah, it went

23:50:13 mircea_popescu: Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player. That struts and frets his hour upon the stage. And then is heard no more: it is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and

23:50:21 mircea_popescu: something.

23:53:12 BingoBoingo: http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/hes-got-a-downton-abbey-inspired-office-but-rep-aaron-schock-wont-talk-about-it/2015/02/02/1d3f1466-ab1f-11e4-abe8-e1ef60ca26de_story.html?postshare=4811422934264510

23:53:13 assbot: He’s got a ‘Downton Abbey’-inspired office, but Rep. Aaron Schock won’t talk about it. - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/18LxrPC )