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Transcript for 03-02-2016, 1235 lines:

00:02:15 punkman: why not stream cipher?

00:02:57 mircea_popescu: stream cypher = particularly braindamaged blockcypher, ie one with a tiny block/

00:11:14 trinque: anybody recommend a way to import a private key to trb?

00:14:33 shinohai: trinque have used pybitcointools with success

00:14:59 punkman: I remember some mentions of a backport patch for key import

00:15:13 punkman: but really, just create the tx elsewhere

00:15:59 mircea_popescu: actually polarbeard if you're looking for more backportage stuff to do ... rawtx thing.

00:16:14 mircea_popescu: but give it a GOOD read aforehand, it's crappy as found in .8

00:16:30 mircea_popescu: none of this cavalry charging it.

00:18:19 mircea_popescu: !up likemob1

00:18:37 punkman: mircea_popescu: stream cypher = particularly braindamaged blockcypher, ie one with a tiny block << vernam can stream

00:19:00 mircea_popescu: explain this to me.

00:20:04 punkman: I can send arbitrary number of encrypted bits to you, no?

00:44:04 mircea_popescu: so ?

00:44:16 mircea_popescu: this does not differentiate between stream and block.

00:45:07 BingoBoingo: polarbeard: And after rawtx ported Scheme X11 widget for interacting with shiva over rs-232 would totes make Gavin all Jelly

00:46:40 jurov: X11 over rs232, now that's new to me

00:46:49 mircea_popescu: lol!

00:47:11 jurov: !b 3

00:47:11 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/08Y1SNA.txt )

00:48:26 BingoBoingo: jurov: Everything is new

00:52:02 BingoBoingo: In other news at the end of 2016 GE is discontinuing compact flourescent light bulbs. Nothing of value was lost.

00:53:05 mircea_popescu: heh.

01:04:57 BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/EylVS

01:04:58 assbot: Bumping into Stallman, again ... ( http://bit.ly/1NOUDsC )

01:15:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32350 @ 0.00057044 = 18.4537 BTC [+] {2}

01:17:01 mircea_popescu: that may be the epitome of anti-interesting by now.

01:17:18 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1394698 << (c) has never been publicly achieved afaik

01:17:18 assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 23:48:55; mircea_popescu: incidentally, thinking vaguely along the lines of making a b-a call for papers for symm cypher, what would we actually want ? i'm thinking a) block sizes of 1, 4, 16, 64 kbytes. none of that bit-denominated bs, wtf is this, 64 bits. fuck that. b) key size of 64kb fixed. c) bonus points for proved hardness, as-hard-as-x etc d) bonus points for not using just basic arithmetics. fuck this shift-and-xor

01:17:31 BingoBoingo: Yeah. Today was dominated by a bunch of these not quite news things.

01:17:33 mircea_popescu: yawell.

01:17:40 BingoBoingo: Like Amazon opening storefronts

01:17:54 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1394700 << non-chained blocks of whatever size, get you this

01:17:54 assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 23:50:52; mircea_popescu: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Tux_ecb.jpg <<< this is what small blocks gets you.

01:18:00 asciilifeform: (for some value of this)

01:18:17 mircea_popescu: only if the block count is large enough.

01:18:31 mircea_popescu: otp is... not chained

01:19:01 asciilifeform: otp has no block size

01:19:11 mircea_popescu: the idea that "better box" rather than "larger blocks" prevents from that is not unlike the fundamental idea at the basis of whitening.

01:19:18 mircea_popescu: otp has block size = message size by definition.

01:19:22 asciilifeform: nope

01:19:28 mircea_popescu: show me ?

01:19:34 asciilifeform: in correct otp, you ~never~ get a situation where same block -> same output

01:19:38 mircea_popescu: exactly.

01:21:21 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1394695 << the motives for usg officially releasing a cryptosystem in 2013 can be discerned only by an expert psychiatrist

01:21:21 assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 23:42:55; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw what about speck, nsa's own rot13 ?

01:21:42 mircea_popescu: aha

01:21:47 asciilifeform: (note that speck and simon were ~not~ proclaimed as crown standards, like des or aes)

01:22:00 asciilifeform: just thrown to the peanut gallery, for - apparently - the hell of it

01:22:07 asciilifeform: 'looksee! we publish!'

01:22:33 asciilifeform: http://galois.com/blog/2013/06/simon-and-speck-in-cryptol << for connoisseurs

01:22:35 assbot: SIMON and SPECK in Cryptol - Galois, Inc. ... ( http://bit.ly/1PTvpkg )

01:22:58 asciilifeform: especially for ben_vulpes ^

01:25:03 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1394699 << funnily, maslennikov's b00k was largely about his futile attempts to interest kgb middle management in group-theoretical foundations for new block ciphers

01:25:03 assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 23:48:55; mircea_popescu: there's plenty of interesting constructions in alt-algebras, number and set theory etc.

01:25:12 mircea_popescu: aha.

01:25:33 mircea_popescu: this "make the block small" and "make the cipher computable" restraints are EXACTLY wrong.

01:25:38 mircea_popescu: they're straight opposite of right.

01:25:51 asciilifeform: computable?

01:26:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eh, you know what i mean. "use xor it's cheap!"

01:26:51 mircea_popescu: fuck that stupid shit. if the computer massaging my 10kb message takes a minute i couldn't care the fuck less - it took me 10 minutes to get all the guns arrayed to make a ml submission.

01:26:55 asciilifeform: thing is, 'use modular multiplication instead! it's costly!' does not automagically yield good cipher

01:27:00 mircea_popescu: i specifically don't fucking want sub second cryptography.

01:27:05 mircea_popescu: it shows you're not using the machine.

01:27:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform absolutely not.

01:27:41 asciilifeform: the field of crypto that has provable hardness foundation is depressingly empty

01:27:44 mircea_popescu: if i tell the woman to "spend an hour cooking, this 30 seconds cookings are bs" this doesn't mean i'm inviting her to pick her nose for 59.5 minutes.

01:27:45 asciilifeform: doesn't even include rsa.

01:28:39 asciilifeform: however, i do find it... interesting, that it is not ~entirely~ empty, but the intersection of it and implementations ~you can get~ .... IS.

01:28:58 mircea_popescu: it's clearly where we must go.

01:29:07 mircea_popescu: from a strategic perspective, that's the spot.

01:29:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4395 @ 0.00056976 = 2.5041 BTC [-]

01:29:37 asciilifeform: most elementarily,

01:29:37 asciilifeform: otp.

01:29:53 mircea_popescu: dude you think yourself in 1650 or something ?

01:30:04 asciilifeform: good otp is easier now than ever.

01:30:24 mircea_popescu: nevertheless.

01:30:37 mircea_popescu: the punishment for otp is "you may not use computer anymore"

01:30:46 asciilifeform: sure you can.

01:30:55 asciilifeform: it just has to be coin-sized and include thermite.

01:31:16 mircea_popescu: "if thge best you can come up with is otp - give me back the cpu and take this mechanical gearbox instead"

01:31:30 asciilifeform: the weak link of ancient otp was always the rng.

01:31:54 asciilifeform: !s w?rfelgenerator

01:31:55 assbot: 0 results for 'w�rfelgenerator' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=w%FCrfelgenerator

01:31:57 asciilifeform: hm

01:32:03 mircea_popescu: !s whoregenerator

01:32:03 assbot: 0 results for 'whoregenerator' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=whoregenerator

01:32:04 asciilifeform: http://www.cryptomuseum.com/manuf/mils

01:32:06 assbot: Mils Electronic ... ( http://bit.ly/1PTweK0 )

01:32:59 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally do you recall that very ingenious thing that worked essentially as a vinyl record player needle but on a random chunk of clay pot ?

01:33:03 asciilifeform: yes

01:33:06 asciilifeform: sigsally

01:33:10 mircea_popescu: sort-of like an extension fo the greek cone items

01:33:11 mircea_popescu: aha

01:33:18 asciilifeform: or hm, nope

01:33:36 asciilifeform: sigsally was the first electronic otp, american, used vocoder (in '40s!) but used ordinary vinyl record

01:34:06 asciilifeform: you might be thinking of 'physically unclonable function' which is a crackpot field

01:34:11 mircea_popescu: nanana

01:34:11 asciilifeform: that afaik never went anywhere serious

01:35:07 mircea_popescu: that's not it. it basically was a mechanical device, worked sort-of like the scytale except on a chunk of a clay item

01:35:31 mircea_popescu: german clockworkery if i recall correctly.

01:36:28 asciilifeform: never heard of such a thing

01:36:38 mircea_popescu: darn where the fuck did i see this thing

01:36:46 asciilifeform: would be interesting to see, considering that i can't get repeatable reading of anything out of a clay pot ~today~

01:36:58 mircea_popescu: it wasn't a pot, it was a slab.

01:37:18 mircea_popescu: basically it had a place you placed the clay fragment in, and a rod which traveled the cracked surface.

01:37:27 asciilifeform: i only ever heard of breaking an object and the halves become identifying passes

01:37:28 mircea_popescu: wasn't very good in that it went back and forth over the distance

01:37:34 mircea_popescu: then again nothing stopped you from servicing it

01:37:44 mircea_popescu: well that's common.

01:37:54 asciilifeform: aha, goes back to at least babylon

01:38:37 mircea_popescu: dja understand how this thing looked or am i not explaining very well ?

01:38:49 asciilifeform: i can nearly picture it.

01:38:52 *: mircea_popescu distinctly recalls the very smoothly polished travel rod

01:38:56 mircea_popescu: which isn't fucking useful.

01:39:42 mircea_popescu: anyway : best ux ever in a mechanical cryptological machine. you could use as many slabs per message as you felt like.

01:39:56 asciilifeform: and your key weighs 500kg!

01:40:01 asciilifeform: and he doesn't like paper otp !

01:40:03 mircea_popescu: hey, nobody said it's cheap.

01:40:11 asciilifeform: at least paper ~burns~

01:40:11 mircea_popescu: but this was a 1700s item im pretty sure

01:40:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform clay breaks :)

01:40:30 mircea_popescu: drop the 500kgs, forget about that key lol

01:40:31 asciilifeform: aha and you can load musket with it.

01:41:16 mircea_popescu: anyway - it's not that i don't like paper otp, or otp generally. it's that if that's the best you can do, you should have been a clockmaker

01:41:28 mircea_popescu: so as not to say "should have been a shoemaker"

01:41:45 mircea_popescu: dun need computers for otp.

01:44:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36900 @ 0.00056573 = 20.8754 BTC [-] {7}

01:45:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22881 @ 0.00056354 = 12.8944 BTC [-] {3}

01:53:21 asciilifeform: actually for many years i have thought about the ideal electric otp.

01:53:29 asciilifeform: it would, likely, be ~electrochemical~

01:53:33 asciilifeform: consider:

01:53:38 asciilifeform: the ideal otp machine:

01:54:11 asciilifeform: 1) the random bits are born all at once, rather than written in one (or machine word) at a time from some specially-built electronic widget

01:54:26 asciilifeform: 2) are born on the two (or more) carriers at the same time

01:54:41 asciilifeform: that then go their separate ways;

01:54:50 asciilifeform: 3) come out one at a time

01:55:21 asciilifeform: 4) are, ideally, erased irrevocably by so doing, or at least erasable in reasonably small chunks (when used) and destroyable all at once (when you pull the pin)

01:55:59 asciilifeform: 5) cannot under any circumstances be ~read~ all at once or quickly enough to be considered 'all at once' for practical purposes of enemy capture & device switcheroo

01:56:48 asciilifeform: each of these 5 pieces contains a number of sub-boojums

01:57:17 asciilifeform: e.g., 1 and 2 imply that there are sufficient bits per entropy without having to resort to whitenings or distillation

01:57:47 asciilifeform: (the former being an exercise in self-delusion, the latter - adds complexity and potentially buggy or noisy circuitry)

01:59:05 asciilifeform: some of the variants i've envisioned include.... a certain kind of battery, where ion gradients vary when a molten electrolyte cools, and it then cut into 2+ strips, and 'burned' like a candle

01:59:23 asciilifeform: emitting two sets of ~same static waveform at once

01:59:41 asciilifeform: and... but why go into it here. anybody who wants this, can think on his own.

02:01:52 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you feel like entertaining some crackpottery, suppose a hash function defined as follows : a) calculate PM ; pM ; P!M ; p!M where P and p are the perimeters of polygons of K sides circumscribing and inscribed respectively in the same circle and !M is the bitwise negation of M ; b) calculate V1 = 2pMPM/(PM+pM) ; V2 = sqrt(pMPM) ; V3 = 2p!MP!M/(P!M+p!M) ; V4 = sqrt(p!MP!M) ; c) calculate H = (V1 - V2) *

02:01:52 mircea_popescu: (V3 - V4) and finally d) return blocksize digits from the key-th position in H.

02:01:57 mircea_popescu: how'd you go about attacking this ?

02:02:23 mircea_popescu: (and from 1 i see you like small blocks just abour as much as i do)

02:03:04 asciilifeform: i would have to think about it

02:03:09 asciilifeform: but gauss could prolly tell you right now!

02:03:11 asciilifeform: wake'im up.

02:03:33 mircea_popescu: lol.

02:05:20 mircea_popescu: (basically - they're the classical (archimedan!) approximations of pi, for the text and reversed text, to an arbitrary precision. makes for an eminently tunable hashfunction)

02:05:46 asciilifeform: terrible hash function

02:05:54 asciilifeform: bailey, borwein, & plouffe.

02:06:03 mircea_popescu: do you see what i did here ?

02:06:16 asciilifeform: (iirc plouffe was the worker bee and the other 2 were parasites)

02:06:44 mircea_popescu: it is apparently a lot easier to follow math in words than in symbols, EVEN FOR YOU

02:06:44 asciilifeform: why the bitwise negation ?

02:06:54 asciilifeform: actually i am writing it out in symbols!111111

02:06:57 asciilifeform: to follow at all!11

02:07:01 mircea_popescu: HA!

02:07:30 mircea_popescu: you took a second to answer after my 2nd line, minutes after the first produced nothing! timing attack on your brain!

02:07:40 asciilifeform: clearly!1

02:07:55 mircea_popescu: lol

02:08:04 mircea_popescu: anyway - being able to calculate pi itself does not actually help here.

02:08:19 mircea_popescu: because we're specifically collecting hte noise of the formula against the text and its mirror, rather than pi itself.

02:08:27 mircea_popescu: hence the substractions.

02:09:40 asciilifeform: the root ops go poorly with bit arithmetic

02:09:46 mircea_popescu: so they do.

02:09:49 mircea_popescu: GOOD.

02:10:01 mircea_popescu: fuck the fucking computing-centring paradigm in crypotography

02:10:05 mircea_popescu: it's your tool not your fucking master.

02:10:10 asciilifeform: then let's have the candle.

02:10:15 mircea_popescu: no.

02:10:22 mircea_popescu: it's your tool, it must be used.

02:10:37 asciilifeform: then you're stuck with wandering decimal crud

02:10:43 asciilifeform: and titanic lookup tables, etc.

02:10:47 mircea_popescu: sure. anyway bignum operations is a solved problem

02:10:48 mircea_popescu: even in lisp

02:10:57 asciilifeform: 'even' l0l

02:10:59 mircea_popescu: :)

02:11:05 asciilifeform: (the original home of bignum)

02:11:12 mircea_popescu: (my trolling is ever more refined)

02:11:16 asciilifeform: but decimal soup is still ick

02:11:20 mircea_popescu: good.

02:11:25 asciilifeform: you won't have repeatable output

02:11:28 mircea_popescu: so ?

02:11:29 asciilifeform: no repeat, no decrypt

02:11:36 mircea_popescu: hash function not cipjher

02:11:43 asciilifeform: then works

02:11:57 *: mircea_popescu is still curious to hear how people'd attack, if anyone cares.

02:12:19 mircea_popescu: esp re preimage.

02:13:21 trinque: shinohai: I don't see anything in pybitcointools to shove a privkey into a wallet.dat

02:14:04 asciilifeform: i will prolly care. on the train, some time soon.

02:14:17 asciilifeform: in other nyooz, i bought that quiet fan kakobrekla recommended ages ago

02:14:39 kakobrekla: and its utter shit you will say

02:14:40 asciilifeform: and laughed when i uncrated it and saw that it ships in a gaudy display case, with clear window, and velcro (!) lid

02:14:49 trinque: also, I don't see sendrawtransaction in trb's list o' commands... wat do?

02:14:50 kakobrekla: whut?

02:14:54 asciilifeform: and was laughing until i saw that it starts spinning when i turn the box a bit !

02:14:59 asciilifeform: shows off the quality of the bearing.

02:15:11 asciilifeform: no 'civilian' pc fan i ever bought, behaved this way.

02:15:21 kakobrekla: aha yea

02:15:32 asciilifeform: i haven't even plugged the thing in yet, and already impressed.

02:15:50 kakobrekla: the 'be quiet' ones that is?

02:15:59 asciilifeform: aha

02:16:05 asciilifeform: 'be quiet silent wings 2'

02:16:22 kakobrekla: they also spin at the lowest rpm of all the high end fans i tested

02:16:24 phf: jurov: i don't handle patch conflicts yet, until there's some kommunitee resolution. and if the answer is "remove them from your patches" probably going to add some kind of tree walk in addition to topo. fwiw right now on the site you can see patches that wouldn't press cleanly in "pink"

02:17:08 trinque: anyone? given a privkey in hand, how the hell do I get trb to send some coin? I do not want to change addresses and nothing I find can chew on this wallet

02:18:43 phf: jurov: like http://btcbase.org/patches/polarbeard_fix_instance_print , asciilifeform_malleus_mikehearnificarum asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring don't press because presumably conflict with programmable-versionstring malleus_mikehearnificarum in order. no idea why polarbeard_better_log_messages polarbeard_fix_instance_print don't press though

02:18:44 assbot: polarbeard_fix_instance_print ... ( http://bit.ly/207AHbw )

02:21:02 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1394903 << you ~know~ wat to do !

02:21:02 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 02:14:49; trinque: also, I don't see sendrawtransaction in trb's list o' commands... wat do?

02:21:04 asciilifeform: implement it!

02:21:07 asciilifeform: in shiva.

02:21:17 trinque: oh I'm already looking at it :p

02:21:27 asciilifeform: (btc-eat-tx vector)

02:21:42 asciilifeform: not so hard

02:22:06 phf: kek, i know why polarbeard_better_log_messages don't press. it depends on asciilifeform_malleus_mikehearnificarum, which is replaced

02:22:38 asciilifeform: iirc mod6 pointed this out earlier

02:22:53 phf: yeah, i'm not up to date on logs

02:23:16 asciilifeform: btw i don't understand why phf's thing needs to 'handle' patch conflicts

02:23:22 asciilifeform: just needs to display the tree

02:23:32 asciilifeform: from which is ought to be ~apparent~ what can coexist and what cannot

02:23:37 asciilifeform: for such is v

02:24:39 phf: well, the idea is that you want to click on the patch and see how to press it. if i were to click in polarbeard_* presumably i want to press the tree that includes old malleus?

02:24:49 asciilifeform: yes!

02:25:04 asciilifeform: anything that can sit down into a vtron, is pressable.

02:25:06 asciilifeform: by definition.

02:25:12 asciilifeform: and it ought to tell you how.

02:25:24 phf: right, but doing just topo won't tell you that

02:26:00 asciilifeform: the simplest algo, for all patchons in patch, dive down recursively and find ancestor.

02:26:08 asciilifeform: when you get to the genesis, you're done.

02:26:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> i will prolly care. on the train, some time soon. << the reason i give it is mostly didactic. it plainly shows what i mean re proper use of math and treating your computer like a tool to do a job rather than treating your job as something to be adjusted to fit the computer without having to delve into complexities and subtleties of number theory etc. something as commonplace as "use the intervals of conf

02:26:26 mircea_popescu: idence of a polynomial method to estimate a transcendent" is really good enough. and it exhibits all those important properties : such as, you can ~actually~ use infinite message, and you can also use any arbitrary padding you like, up to infinity - the hash function won't complain. and you can want it to shit out any block size you want it to shit out - also won't complain, but give EQUALLY MEANINGFUL results. whether

02:26:27 mircea_popescu: you ask for 3 or 13 or 294 digits.

02:26:29 asciilifeform: (~a~ genesis, i should say)

02:27:07 mircea_popescu: trinque> also, I don't see sendrawtransaction in trb's list o' commands... wat do? << cry all the way home, we don't have it yet. backport it ? :D

02:27:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i am quite certain that you knew this, but pretty much all published block ciphers date to the dark ages, when transistor was painfully expensive

02:27:24 mircea_popescu: i do.

02:27:30 mircea_popescu: still, some points have to be made

02:27:32 mircea_popescu: REPEATEDLY

02:27:47 mircea_popescu: also, this is NOT a block cipher

02:27:59 mircea_popescu: but anyway.

02:28:09 asciilifeform: age of cheap transistor had a faux-renaissance where folks used the cheap transistors for elaborate self-delusion - 'this is sooo complicated, nobody!1111 could crack'

02:28:19 asciilifeform: which led to a pile of corpses and a reaction.

02:28:28 mircea_popescu: quite.

02:28:31 asciilifeform: which enemy, naturally, took full advantage of

02:28:37 asciilifeform: and here we are, somewhere after this.

02:28:48 mircea_popescu: whereas the correct solution is to stick to the math. computers are fucking tractors not farm designers.

02:28:56 mircea_popescu: but hey, generation of cad and web and whatnot.

02:29:04 asciilifeform: cud.

02:29:12 mircea_popescu: no i mean the autocad thing.

02:29:14 asciilifeform: yes

02:29:16 asciilifeform: and i meant cud.

02:29:22 asciilifeform: as in, what ruminant ruminates over

02:29:24 asciilifeform: or, alternatively,

02:29:27 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i was walking with a woman i walked with all over the fucking world, and she spontaneoushly said

02:29:30 asciilifeform: computer-UNaided designs.

02:29:35 mircea_popescu: "wtf is with these large buildings they're all ugly in the same way"

02:29:43 mircea_popescu: and i explained to her what autocad was

02:29:50 mircea_popescu: and she was horrified ever since.

02:29:56 asciilifeform: thing is that brutalism pre-dates cad.

02:31:43 phf: moar corbusier

02:33:25 asciilifeform: cars all looking entirely alike are a better example

02:35:29 danielpbarron: https://twitter.com/swiftonsecurity/status/694686642318118913 >> "We're going to increase the block size and make more of them. Everyone should be able to mine a block." (picture of Bernie Sanders at some rally)

02:36:02 mircea_popescu: hahaah what ?>

02:38:01 danielpbarron: it's some account that's fairly popular in the twatter circles of people who use terms like opsec and infosec, pointing out that the proponents of larger blocks sound like the guy who's running for president as a socialist

02:38:10 mircea_popescu: http://plouffe.fr/ << in other news, plouffe's site is gone.

02:38:10 assbot: Page Maison de Simon Plouffe Home Page ... ( http://bit.ly/207Dbql )

02:38:32 mircea_popescu: ftr, that's where the now-famous first of many "calculate nth decimal of transcendent without calculating the others" thing was published

02:39:32 asciilifeform: holy shit, plouffe?

02:39:33 asciilifeform: !?!

02:39:37 asciilifeform: desaparecido ?

02:40:04 mircea_popescu: aye.

02:40:27 asciilifeform: https://oeis.org/wiki/Plouffe's_Inverter << also gone...

02:40:28 assbot: Plouffe's Inverter - OeisWiki ... ( http://bit.ly/207Dqlc )

02:40:51 mircea_popescu: guy really gave numeric appoaches a serious push.

02:40:56 asciilifeform: http://xahlee.info/math/Simon_Plouffe_pi_formula.html << obligatory xah lee

02:40:57 assbot: Math Politics: Simon Plouffe and nth Digit Formula of π ... ( http://bit.ly/207Dtxw )

02:41:07 asciilifeform: ^ re: the perelmanization of ploufee

02:41:10 asciilifeform: *plouffe

02:42:20 asciilifeform: doesn't sprechen the inglisch so well, but not hard to understand:

02:42:27 asciilifeform: 'Peter Borwein wanted very much that I do a Ph. D. on the ISC but he wanted also to publish (with his name of course) an article before I deposit the thesis. Again the same story was going on, these 2 guys are so greedy I can't believe it. The behavior they had with me was not exclusive, especially Peter Borwein he was the same with most of his students, especially the good ones, sucking the maximum. Jon is the same but he has

02:42:27 asciilifeform: more talent in politics (more money too). He is good but has a tendency to site himself a lot. He thinks that if he had the idea of the sum of 2 numbers at one point in his life then all formulas in mathematics are his own discovery. About David H. Bailey. He came after the discovery of the formula and my small basic program , I had also a fortran version. This is where Peter Borwein suggested to add him as a collaborator to

02:42:29 asciilifeform: the discovery since he contributed to it (as he said), this is my second big mistake. Of course he accepted to co-write the article, who wouldn't ?! David H. Bailey (and Ferguson) are the authors of the PSLQ program. That program is the <american> version of the Pari-Gp program. I used it a little it is true, but what made the discovery was pari-Gp and Maple interface program I had. So actually, that person has nothing to do w

02:42:34 asciilifeform: ith the discovery of that algorithm and very little to do with the finding of the formula. The mistake was mine. Saying that Bailey found the formula is like saying that the formula was found by the Maple and Basic program.'

02:42:51 mircea_popescu: did i read this exact thing before re wolfram ?

02:43:01 asciilifeform: wolfram did it to somebody else

02:43:08 asciilifeform: re: turing-complete cellular automaton proof

02:43:10 mircea_popescu: but the same text!

02:43:32 asciilifeform: not same text. but same bullet hole, same corpse.

02:43:40 asciilifeform: all bullet holes are quite alike.

02:44:20 mircea_popescu: indeed.

02:45:55 asciilifeform: one strong ox and two very, very effective plowing flies.

02:46:56 asciilifeform: http://www.pi314.net/eng/bellard.php << l0l! same bellard as of qemu and tinycc and many other fun things

02:46:56 assbot: The world of Pi - Bellard ... ( http://bit.ly/1o4vi9m )

02:47:02 asciilifeform: found improvement of plouffe's algo.

02:47:10 asciilifeform: 'world is small'

02:47:27 shinohai: trinque: sorry 'twas this mod6 and I used to do it: https://github.com/jackjack-jj/pywallet

02:47:29 assbot: jackjack-jj/pywallet · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1o4vlSs )

02:56:27 asciilifeform: https://github.com/17Q4MX2hmktmpuUKHFuoRmS5MfB5XPbhod/dropzone-lib << lulzy derpatron from the spam in mircea_popescu's comment section

02:56:28 assbot: GitHub - 17Q4MX2hmktmpuUKHFuoRmS5MfB5XPbhod/dropzone-lib: An Anonymous Peer-To-Peer Local Contraband Marketplace ... ( http://bit.ly/1o4wyJx )

03:05:02 funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1394898 <-- a backport patch of privkey import/export should you be so inclined to look: http://frass.woodcoin.org/dev/funken_prikey_tools.vpatch

03:05:02 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 02:13:21; trinque: shinohai: I don't see anything in pybitcointools to shove a privkey into a wallet.dat

03:05:03 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/207Gjmf )

03:08:12 funkenstein_: ooh cool "physically unclonable functions". is that another way to say reality?

03:13:13 mod6: funkenstein_: hey, did you write that one?

03:14:20 funkenstein_: mod6 yeah, a few months ago.

03:14:33 mod6: oh awesome, did it make it into the ML?

03:15:29 funkenstein_: it got hung up when i added another patch "chuck_checkpoints" with mistake.. now sits there for eyeballs if anyone is interested

03:17:47 funkenstein_: there was some tree structure problem with original mailing list submission iirc

03:18:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10750 @ 0.00056509 = 6.0747 BTC [+] {2}

03:19:49 funkenstein_: mod6, keep up the good work, tis nice to see some activity

03:21:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24600 @ 0.00057043 = 14.0326 BTC [+] {3}

03:22:47 phf: ( http://btcbase.org/patches/funken_prikey_tools )

03:22:48 assbot: funken_prikey_tools ... ( http://bit.ly/1o4zK86 )

03:25:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7142 @ 0.00056509 = 4.0359 BTC [-] {2}

03:26:40 mod6: ;;later tell funkenstein_ thanks. yeah, that patch will be useful. will try to get it in right after the release.

03:26:40 gribble: The operation succeeded.

03:26:56 shinohai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395010 <<< nifty! thx

03:26:56 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 03:05:02; funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1394898 <-- a backport patch of privkey import/export should you be so inclined to look: http://frass.woodcoin.org/dev/funken_prikey_tools.vpatch

03:42:45 trinque: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/51bcb086-22bb-4daf-aad2-f2da5a837e87/ << anyone tell why that's an invalid transaction? when I sign it and feed to btcd, it tells me my R value is negative.

03:42:46 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/207LkuY )

03:42:57 trinque: hanbot: this is holding up your deed til I find out why it's happening

03:47:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20172 @ 0.00056108 = 11.3181 BTC [-] {3}

03:55:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2800 @ 0.0005679 = 1.5901 BTC [+] {3}

04:18:17 mod6: trinque: what version of bitcoin?

04:41:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12286 @ 0.00055969 = 6.8764 BTC [-] {3}

04:55:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30700 @ 0.00057043 = 17.5122 BTC [+] {2}

05:07:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anything in there ?

05:08:32 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> 'world is small' << for any definition of "world" that excludes most idiots.

05:09:12 mircea_popescu: <funkenstein_> a backport patch of privkey import/export should you be so inclined to look: http://frass.woodcoin.org/dev/funken_prikey_tools.vpatch << hey check that out! nice.

05:09:13 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/207Gjmf )

05:09:15 mircea_popescu: ima have to digest this.

05:11:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1900 @ 0.00057044 = 1.0838 BTC [+]

05:17:09 pete_dushenski: ^a test. you might see me logging in as 'pete_d_out' in the next week or so. if you do, please to +v!

05:18:39 mircea_popescu: http://i.imgur.com/uH7jjhF.jpg << for the lulz.

05:18:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1NPc4ZY )

05:19:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11019 @ 0.00056134 = 6.1854 BTC [-] {4}

05:20:33 mircea_popescu: trinque this sounds like a bug in either the signing process or the btcd.

05:20:38 mircea_popescu: how does the signed txn look ?

05:22:42 danielpbarron: what is that toomim or something?

05:22:57 pete_dushenski: l0l!

05:23:10 pete_dushenski: i was thinking "burned out movie star"

05:23:11 *: danielpbarron doesn't know what he looks like but can only assume..

05:28:28 mircea_popescu: it is a bitcoin expert / gavin economist / miner leader and otherwise important reddit person.

05:28:59 pete_dushenski: luke-jr ?

05:40:04 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1394302 << waitwut. that's a tidy sum.

05:40:04 assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 19:41:01; jurov: princessnell: you have here 15675 s.qntr shares, want to do anything with them?

05:41:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6700 @ 0.0005697 = 3.817 BTC [+] {3}

05:42:03 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1394262 << badass.

05:42:03 assbot: Logged on 02-02-2016 18:01:26; danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2016#1393853 << I met the guy at both PaulFest and PorcFest (pictured https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bre5M-MIMAEVoHf.jpg:large )

05:42:40 danielpbarron: I chatted him up too; he was a bit too socialist for my liking

05:43:16 pete_dushenski: the 'einstein' expression mighta given that away

05:43:51 pete_dushenski: https://www.viewfoo.com/uploads/images/702_1433440838_albert-einstein.jpg << compare and contrast

05:46:43 danielpbarron: heh

05:51:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16450 @ 0.00057043 = 9.3836 BTC [+] {2}

06:06:53 danielpbarron: https://twitter.com/FreeStateNH/status/694763068010713088 >> We did it! 20,000 SIGNERS! @NHLibertyForum is gonna ROCK! Esp w/ Edward @Snowden speaking! http://NHLibertyForum.com << so it finally happened. Let's see how many actually move.

06:06:56 assbot: Liberty Forum ... ( http://bit.ly/20oMvvy )

06:07:04 deedbot-: [fraudsters] Black Book - http://fraudsters.com/2016/black-book/

06:10:22 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron wassat ?

06:11:50 danielpbarron: the idea was to nag as many people as possible into at least ~saying~ that they'd move to New Hampsire if 19.999k others said the same

06:12:33 danielpbarron: and that once they all got there, they could finally change the government for good or something

06:13:13 danielpbarron: thing started a decade ago at least, so it's been a long time coming

06:13:34 mircea_popescu: oh that, right.

06:13:50 BingoBoingo: 20,000 people is enough for three rifle brigades and a support component

06:13:58 mircea_popescu: 20k isn't really enough to move nh tho is it ?

06:14:12 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo no, more than half of these are women.

06:14:22 mircea_popescu: it's just enough for half a concentration camp, really.

06:14:54 danielpbarron: a good percent of the 20k are probably dead by now

06:15:00 BingoBoingo: Crushing my dreams with you having come from a country with history.

06:16:28 danielpbarron: happy to say I didn't cave in to their very persistent nagging when i was at porcfest, so I will not have to reneg on this moving nonsense

06:20:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28400 @ 0.00055972 = 15.896 BTC [-] {3}

06:20:54 BingoBoingo: http://fraudsters.com/2016/black-book/#comment-116421

06:20:55 assbot: Black Book on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/20oO0da )

06:27:10 mircea_popescu: lol

06:33:41 pete_dushenski: ;;tslb

06:33:44 gribble: Time since last block: 21 minutes and 23 seconds

06:37:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3650 @ 0.00055937 = 2.0417 BTC [-] {3}

06:45:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.00056868 = 6.881 BTC [+] {2}

07:06:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15665 @ 0.00055933 = 8.7619 BTC [-] {2}

07:15:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20700 @ 0.00056463 = 11.6878 BTC [+] {5}

07:20:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14150 @ 0.00057045 = 8.0719 BTC [+]

07:23:49 deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 7.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination - http://bitbet.us/bet/1206/donald-trump-gets-republican-nomination/#b86

07:58:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6825 @ 0.0005596 = 3.8193 BTC [-]

08:00:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3800 @ 0.00056302 = 2.1395 BTC [+] {3}

08:05:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2150 @ 0.00056545 = 1.2157 BTC [+]

08:11:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6300 @ 0.00055933 = 3.5238 BTC [-] {2}

09:02:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6548 @ 0.00056102 = 3.6736 BTC [+] {2}

09:16:46 polarbeard: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1394710 << will work on this

09:16:46 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 00:15:59; mircea_popescu: actually polarbeard if you're looking for more backportage stuff to do ... rawtx thing.

09:49:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12150 @ 0.00056678 = 6.8864 BTC [+] {3}

09:53:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19500 @ 0.00057045 = 11.1238 BTC [+]

10:02:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21663 @ 0.00057045 = 12.3577 BTC [+]

10:12:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10121 @ 0.00057045 = 5.7735 BTC [+]

10:19:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.00057045 = 7.7581 BTC [+]

10:28:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5373 @ 0.00056542 = 3.038 BTC [-] {2}

11:05:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00056917 = 6.3747 BTC [+] {2}

11:16:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13250 @ 0.00057044 = 7.5583 BTC [+] {2}

11:44:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44300 @ 0.00057045 = 25.2709 BTC [+]

12:53:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14350 @ 0.00056888 = 8.1634 BTC [-]

13:10:29 jurov: ;;tmsr

13:10:30 gribble: Error: "tmsr" is not a valid command.

13:20:51 asciilifeform: 5x19x141x248.static-customer.iz.ertelecom.ru << in mircea_popescu's trb fleet ?

13:29:59 asciilifeform: in other news, zoolag was blackholed for a record-breaking 8 hours.

13:30:13 asciilifeform: the situation with 'all connections are equal' MUST DIE.

13:30:22 asciilifeform: it is idiocy, plain and simple.

13:30:43 asciilifeform: 'hobo in the alley has same right to impregnate wife as master of the house' or how did mircea_popescu put it.

13:31:02 deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 18.41463281 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination - http://bitbet.us/bet/1206/donald-trump-gets-republican-nomination/#b87

13:31:07 asciilifeform: of the things that most must die, it is this, verily.

13:31:10 copypaste: woah

13:31:13 copypaste: 18BTC on no

13:55:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00056888 = 1.9911 BTC [-]

14:01:14 mircea_popescu: <polarbeard> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1394710 << will work on this << cool. hey funkenstein_ if you're going to rebase your patch to current tree i'm going to consider it also. hurry up tho lol.

14:01:14 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 00:15:59; mircea_popescu: actually polarbeard if you're looking for more backportage stuff to do ... rawtx thing.

14:01:51 mircea_popescu: copypaste> 18BTC on no << his fortunes markedly changed past coupla weeks it seems.

14:03:01 copypaste: he lost one caucus narrowly

14:03:21 copypaste: caucuses are not all or nothing

14:03:33 copypaste: he's only one seat behind after the first state

14:03:46 copypaste: i think he's doing quite well, i wouldn't be sure enough to put 18BTC on it that's for sure

14:04:03 PeterL: so maybe he wins new hampshire next week, then we will see a bunch of yes bets?

14:04:10 mircea_popescu: darn that bet comment section is something else.

14:04:15 mircea_popescu: PeterL likely.

14:04:48 mircea_popescu: copypaste i think the perception (at least my perception at any rate) is that he's a momentum player. all he has on his side is the image of winning, no further substance.

14:04:57 mircea_popescu: for which reason, not-winning is a kiss of death for him.

14:05:06 copypaste: ah, i see what you mean

14:05:13 mircea_popescu: the way it wouldn't be for obama. he was, throughout, a loser. losing doesn't affect losers as it affects winners.

14:07:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21657 @ 0.00056933 = 12.33 BTC [+]

14:10:51 copypaste: anyway, i have .2 on yes. his sureness will only enrich me >:)

14:11:01 copypaste: (if i'm right)

14:11:28 mircea_popescu: hehe.

14:11:49 mircea_popescu: anyway, the best thing hilary could do for the cause of lulz if she won would be\

14:11:53 mircea_popescu: to take trump as vp

14:12:43 PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?

14:12:59 mircea_popescu: well if there isn't make it .

14:15:18 copypaste: make it so i can vote on no

14:30:42 PeterL: and speaking of presidential politics: rand paul just announced todayhe is dropping out of the race

14:31:20 PeterL: so does the rand paul bet get settled as "no" now, or does it have to wait until the republican convention in the summer?

14:33:28 mircea_popescu: prolly gets settled.

14:33:31 mircea_popescu: say something there at any rate.

14:36:09 PeterL: commented on the bet page.

14:38:00 PeterL: I wonder if the other candidates who got lower votes in Iowa than Rand will drop out too?

14:38:32 mircea_popescu: i wonder if rand will spend the next 50 years with a tiny rabid fanbase and a few %s each election.

14:39:10 mircea_popescu: and as a side wonder, i wonder how many people even knew iowa was a state.

14:39:52 PeterL: it in the animaniacs sond of all the state names, so therefore we all know it, right?

14:40:06 PeterL: *song

14:41:56 mircea_popescu: lol

14:45:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00056933 = 1.9927 BTC [+]

14:52:06 mircea_popescu: lol so the redditard/tardstalk/whatever idiot parade settled on "we know better than mp because random derp said we do" ?

14:52:08 mircea_popescu: fun.

15:11:33 mircea_popescu: here's something to help BingoBoingo pass the winter : http://www.nairaland.com/attachments/1848712_1420843killercurves3_jpegf7a5386b784f877d48afebd2b0fb0ea2

15:11:34 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2092VTd )

15:14:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46900 @ 0.00057043 = 26.7532 BTC [+] {2}

15:21:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2000 @ 0.00056888 = 1.1378 BTC [-]

15:32:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00056844 = 8.5834 BTC [-] {2}

15:38:36 thestringpuller: !up ascii_butugychag

15:57:06 punkman: https://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees-usd?showDataPoints=false×pan=1year&show_header=true&daysAverageString=7&scale=0&address= not bad

15:57:07 assbot: Bitcoin Transaction Fees in USD ... ( http://bit.ly/1SY414Z )

15:57:39 mircea_popescu: aha.

15:58:38 mircea_popescu: up to 1-200k a day it can keep going. that's finally a relevant metric worth considering.

16:07:55 punkman: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaOfMvMUAAAHc59.jpg:large

16:07:56 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1SY584B )

16:21:04 polarbeard: incest: https://github.com/polarbeard/trb

16:21:07 assbot: GitHub - polarbeard/trb: The Real Bitcoin™ ... ( http://bit.ly/1QcCPJQ )

16:21:23 polarbeard: actually git comes handy to manage trb patch-sets

16:21:46 mircea_popescu: punkman i dunno how much i credit this accounting approach.

16:22:10 mircea_popescu: sort of like counting the fucks over your life. odds are the most times you fucked the women you liked least. it's how it works for most people.

16:23:23 mircea_popescu: einstein comes up with "god doesn't roll dice", switzerland gets +1, newton comes up with calculus "great britain" gets +1 ?

16:24:11 mircea_popescu: science has no country. the pretense to the contrary is not unlike some derps sitting on reddit going "people whose names start with m are more great than people whose names start with i because mp > indiancandy so THERE!11"

16:25:23 mircea_popescu: review the letters, the reason calculus was invented as well as documented has everything to do with newton being part of the b-a of his time, going under the name "lion's claw" and ~0 to do with the happenstance that some derp battling hygiene wore a hunk of metal now and again for a hat.

16:26:24 mircea_popescu: polarbeard lol that should be lulzy.

16:27:02 polarbeard: next step is to get svn involved somehow

16:28:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11600 @ 0.00056717 = 6.5792 BTC [-] {4}

16:29:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17506 @ 0.0005651 = 9.8926 BTC [-] {3}

16:38:43 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_butugychag

16:39:34 polarbeard: mircea_popescu: about sendtawtx I've found this material: http://dpaste.com/1P62G6W

16:39:36 assbot: dpaste: 1P62G6W ... ( http://bit.ly/1JYiATu )

16:39:49 ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395170 << at least 2 people did this, for some reason, before

16:39:49 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:21:04; polarbeard: incest: https://github.com/polarbeard/trb

16:39:53 ascii_butugychag: ( ben_vulpes ? )

16:40:11 ascii_butugychag: i really don't see the appeal, esp. now that phf has the colourized viewer thing

16:40:24 ascii_butugychag: (which ~really~ needs to be come the canonical patch swallower and lxr replacement )

16:40:35 ascii_butugychag: srsly lxr is lame

16:41:02 polarbeard: ascii_butugychag: I pushed just 4 fun, I actually just need git to manage my branch with the fancy logs

16:41:23 polarbeard: I tried plain fs but too much cd'ing around and got confused

16:41:43 thestringpuller: lxr?

16:41:54 ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395141 << when americans stuff ballot box, they like to set it up as 'dark horse candidate'

16:41:54 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 14:12:43; PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?

16:42:01 ascii_butugychag: !s lxr

16:42:01 assbot: 151 results for 'lxr' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=lxr

16:42:34 ascii_butugychag: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source?v=asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected << y'know, THAT thing

16:42:35 assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected/ ... ( http://bit.ly/1SaeKaR )

16:42:52 ascii_butugychag: right now i'm stuck with it

16:42:54 polarbeard: oh, ouch, eyes hurt

16:43:07 ascii_butugychag: i refuse to read the code in anything where i can't click an identifier and get concordance

16:43:33 ascii_butugychag: (yes, this includes paper book, which HAD FUCKING BETTER have concordance indices in all margins on every page)

16:43:57 ascii_butugychag: i do NOT have the time, energy, or inclindation to fucking HUNT for 'where is this defined'

16:44:01 thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: you are so demanding!

16:44:24 thestringpuller: isn't that what IDE is for?

16:44:30 ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: recall that the whole project appeared largely on account of my unreasonable demands

16:46:04 thestringpuller: I understand you are high maintenance ascii_butugychag it's okay, that's why we <3 you.

16:46:09 ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395177 << science ~does~ 'have a country~ in the sense that newton was not and could not have been from zimbabwe.

16:46:09 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:25:23; mircea_popescu: review the letters, the reason calculus was invented as well as documented has everything to do with newton being part of the b-a of his time, going under the name "lion's claw" and ~0 to do with the happenstance that some derp battling hygiene wore a hunk of metal now and again for a hat.

16:46:27 ascii_butugychag: (or rather, the pisshole that then existed there)

16:46:58 mircea_popescu: srsly ascii_butugychag : http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/ident?v=asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected&_i=uint64

16:46:59 assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected identifier search: uint64 ... ( http://bit.ly/1JYjwHJ )

16:47:05 mircea_popescu: click on definition, see http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/serialize.h?v=asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected#0023

16:47:07 assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected/src/serialize.h ... ( http://bit.ly/1JYjxeI )

16:47:07 mircea_popescu: etc.

16:47:40 ascii_butugychag: aha but this all needs to be in 1 place

16:47:48 thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: I read newton's calculus wasn't actually released. it was lebiniz who published it.

16:47:49 ascii_butugychag: and be vtronic.

16:48:11 mircea_popescu: yaya. but lxr is still pretty good, and a good basis for vtronic same-thing

16:48:14 ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: it is partly why we use l's notation

16:48:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395211 << give me teenaged zimbabwe girl of my choice, i'll einstein her.

16:48:27 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:46:27; ascii_butugychag: (or rather, the pisshole that then existed there)

16:48:32 mircea_popescu: the country really has NOTHING to do with it.

16:48:43 ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: actually lxr is ~profoundly~ retarded in that i can't link to line numbers

16:48:52 mircea_popescu: i just linked to line numbers above

16:49:03 mircea_popescu: #0023 part.

16:49:05 ascii_butugychag: hm

16:49:17 ascii_butugychag: nm i was thinking of the earlier thing

16:49:18 mircea_popescu: you gotta simmer down with the readily set wrath bit!

16:49:20 ascii_butugychag: that we junked

16:50:13 ascii_butugychag: anyway, a thing that gives vtronic lxr that also would eat patches and let you walk the vtree, would be ~the~ answer.

16:50:19 mircea_popescu: aye.

16:50:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20653 @ 0.00057045 = 11.7815 BTC [+]

16:50:48 mircea_popescu: splendor of splendors. and if we can somehow merge the eating so both the current model and an error-passing irc bot based method exist...

16:51:04 mircea_popescu: jurov really can't be expected to baby people sending stuff WRONGLY for the rest of his days.

16:51:15 mircea_popescu: gotta make a bot, that'll say "hey dummy... you only put the sig in!"

16:51:20 ascii_butugychag: he's prolly almost as tired of reading'em as i am of sending

16:51:28 thestringpuller: jurov-bot will do babysitting in future

16:51:40 polarbeard: jubot

16:51:45 mircea_popescu: last time i did it it went flawlessly. the time before that, i took three tries because i fucked up twice.

16:52:01 ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: have you carried out experiments re: blackholes nodes ?

16:52:04 mircea_popescu: thoroughly pebkac issues fwis.

16:52:09 mircea_popescu: some.

16:52:21 mircea_popescu: oddly enough i don't get blackholed nearly as often as you do o.O

16:52:27 ascii_butugychag: i can say at this point that it is not a network issue as such

16:52:32 ascii_butugychag: restart - always cures

16:52:51 mircea_popescu: i dunno what it is, i've never seen it before trb myself, nor a really good one since.

16:52:55 mircea_popescu: 8 hrs ? srsly ?

16:52:56 ascii_butugychag: blackhole results when the worker thread (the one that handles nearly everything) is wedged

16:53:04 ascii_butugychag: while the network thread continues to accept connections

16:53:11 ascii_butugychag: 8hrs until i reset it.

16:53:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8604 @ 0.00056058 = 4.8232 BTC [-] {2}

16:54:09 punkman: there have been a lot of DoS bugs since 0.5.3

16:54:31 punkman: and probably not mentioned in changelogs either

16:55:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4896 @ 0.00055995 = 2.7415 BTC [-]

16:55:38 ascii_butugychag: what i do know is that -connect nodes within my walls do not ever blackhole.

16:55:41 mircea_popescu: obviously. why not be useless to the bitter end. power rangering ftw!

16:56:16 ascii_butugychag: nor does idem, running on SAME BOX as zoolag in parallel with it and -connected to it and the other trbs.

16:56:33 ascii_butugychag: (yes i have two blockchains, different users, etc on it)

16:58:51 ascii_butugychag: one of the reasons i wrote shiva,

16:59:05 ascii_butugychag: is so that we can get to a place where there is NEVER a situation of 'i wonder wtf the node is doing'

16:59:09 thestringpuller: the power rangers seem to be able to line up gullible investors better than zuckerberg and that napster guy...justin timberlake was it?

16:59:22 mircea_popescu: eh get out.

17:01:22 ascii_butugychag: does nobody but me actually watch their trb logs ?

17:01:32 ascii_butugychag: these things spend a good chunk of their time not node-in !1111

17:01:38 ascii_butugychag: *-ing

17:01:46 thestringpuller: i thought tail -f debug.log was the only way to see what was actually going on

17:02:16 ascii_butugychag: and then you people wonder why your tx is stuck on mars without a return ticket

17:02:29 ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: it doesn't tell you worth shit re: a stuck node.

17:02:52 thestringpuller: i haven't experienced that problem yet.

17:03:09 ascii_butugychag: do you have the log scrolling 24/7 ?

17:03:16 ascii_butugychag: chances are you simply aren't looking.

17:03:21 ascii_butugychag: if you haven't see it.

17:03:28 thestringpuller: yea. but I don't ~look~ at the log 24/7

17:03:35 ascii_butugychag: plot block receipt times.

17:03:39 ascii_butugychag: you're in for a surprise.

17:04:12 ascii_butugychag: (write it in shiva!)

17:04:19 thestringpuller: ~_~

17:04:22 mircea_popescu: ascii_butugychag> chances are you simply aren't looking. << grep exists you know.

17:04:46 ascii_butugychag: or grep, sure

17:04:47 thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag says "LISP is you friend" so I'll give it a try.

17:04:58 thestringpuller: Reminds me of when gf is like "eat these vegetables they won't kill you"

17:05:12 mircea_popescu: also, the timing as presented by the node is not terribly reliable.

17:05:20 mircea_popescu: minutewise it works, but otherwise... meh

17:05:30 ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: sorta why i'd rather plot externally than grep

17:05:33 ascii_butugychag: the logs suck arse

17:05:46 polarbeard: ^

17:06:27 ascii_butugychag: but thing is, i specifically am interested in what the thing is doing when it is ~unable to produce log~

17:06:33 ascii_butugychag: (or do any other useful work)

17:06:56 ascii_butugychag: incidentally, i found that a blackholed node won't respond to rpc

17:07:03 polarbeard: you can backport zmq B)

17:07:07 thestringpuller: oh wait. that has happened to me.

17:07:07 ascii_butugychag: (it is in the global idiot lock)

17:07:13 mircea_popescu: polarbeard do you lisp/scheme incidentally ?

17:07:21 thestringpuller: where node stops responding, last time though it brought the whole machine down tho.

17:07:28 polarbeard: I used to

17:08:59 thestringpuller: !up ascii_butugychag

17:15:44 phf: can probably add something like lxr, but i need a better idea of how they do c++ parsing/indexing

17:16:48 PeterL: ascii_butugychag> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395141 << when americans stuff ballot box, they like to set it up as 'dark horse candidate' << I wouldn't call Cruz a dark horse, there are just so many candidates he must have been overlooked, we didn't get bets for huckabee, santorum, fiorina, christie, etc, either

17:16:48 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 14:12:43; PeterL: looks like there is no bet for cruz to get nomination?

17:20:24 *: shinohai actually does: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395272

17:20:24 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:03:09; ascii_butugychag: do you have the log scrolling 24/7 ?

17:21:11 shinohai: !up ascii_butugychag

17:21:40 ascii_butugychag: soo i had an idea

17:21:47 shinohai: >.>

17:21:53 ascii_butugychag: how to determine, without major surgery, what a wedged node is doing

17:21:55 ascii_butugychag: https://www.osadl.org/Dumping-gcov-data-at-runtime-simple-ex.online-coverage-analysis.0.html

17:21:57 assbot: Dumping gcov data at runtime - simple example : OSADL - Open Source Automation Development Lab eG ... ( http://bit.ly/1PUL4jj )

17:22:33 ascii_butugychag: this is sorta like what i did with massif

17:22:35 ascii_butugychag: !s massif

17:22:36 assbot: 11 results for 'massif' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=massif

17:22:37 polarbeard: nice

17:22:44 ascii_butugychag: somebody try this ?

17:23:20 ascii_butugychag: it needs to be on auto-trigger

17:23:23 ascii_butugychag: external proggy watches log

17:23:31 ascii_butugychag: if no block for... 1hr+ ?

17:23:32 ascii_butugychag: then fire.

17:23:38 ascii_butugychag: but not until then!

17:25:06 ascii_butugychag: i strongly suspect that we will uncover a deadlock.

17:25:52 polarbeard: I'll definitely have to checkout gcov itself first

17:26:03 ascii_butugychag: polarbeard: comes with gcc

17:26:16 ascii_butugychag: you already have it.

17:26:32 ascii_butugychag: !s gcov

17:26:33 assbot: 23 results for 'gcov' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gcov

17:26:46 polarbeard: yep, but I didn't know such thing existed

17:27:22 polarbeard: will play with it, definitively

17:28:18 thestringpuller: debuggin threads is the most painful thing to debug.

17:28:22 jurov: lxr may be vtronic *if and when* someone takes my questions serious. so, asking again, what to do with reground or otherwise resubmitted patches?

17:28:37 jurov: since renaming is out of the question

17:28:43 thestringpuller: it's like exterminating cockroaches that refuse to die.

17:29:30 ascii_butugychag: jurov: append '-old' to the old name ?

17:29:44 polarbeard: sequence in filename?

17:29:58 ascii_butugychag: nobody signs the names

17:30:00 ascii_butugychag: can rename all you like

17:30:10 jurov: bubutbut mutilation!!!&%#%$

17:30:20 ascii_butugychag: gotta rename the sig too

17:30:28 ascii_butugychag: i was pissed because turdatron did not rename both

17:30:31 polarbeard: well names are for humans, I think humans is what jurov is concerned with

17:30:54 jurov: iirc whole lxr thing is for humans

17:30:57 polarbeard: otherwise just check the sig date using pgp, last patch wins

17:31:16 ascii_butugychag: jurov: for humans, but the idea here is that it ought to be able to swallow new patches

17:31:21 ascii_butugychag: without manual curation every time

17:31:27 ascii_butugychag: and show a coherent tree

17:32:16 ascii_butugychag: so long as every patch ever submitted can be pressed to, the thing works correctly.

17:32:25 polarbeard: but actually you need to store all versions in some common place to do further checking, they should come with different filenames...

17:32:34 ascii_butugychag: and if it can be pressed to,

17:32:42 ascii_butugychag: it can be viewed as an lxr.

17:35:04 jurov: so won't you take exception with branches in lxr named vpatchname_YYYMMMDD or vpatchname_SHA1 ?

17:35:21 jurov: (latter bring the original idea)

17:35:26 jurov: *being

17:36:35 mod6: ascii_butugychag: is this kinda what you were asking for yesterday? A vdiff of a pressed original patches (minus PVS fix) + shiva with pressed mod6's integrated patch + malleus regrind + shiva ?

17:36:38 ascii_butugychag: jurov: the latter is a no-go because sigs !

17:36:40 mod6: http://dpaste.com/04SAJHB.txt

17:36:42 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1VMvF30 )

17:36:42 ascii_butugychag: it fucking breaks v!

17:37:03 ascii_butugychag: mod6: nope.

17:37:17 mod6: please explain again so i can get this completed.

17:37:27 ascii_butugychag: i wanted a diff of a) the result of applying my original patches b) the result of applying yours

17:37:31 ascii_butugychag: not the v output

17:37:32 ascii_butugychag: the tree.

17:37:36 ascii_butugychag: the two trees, diffed.

17:37:41 ascii_butugychag: see why ?

17:37:42 mod6: scroll to the bottom.

17:37:50 mod6: i did vdiff of the pressed out stuff.

17:37:51 jurov: not really, sigs were supposed to carry SHA1 of the patch they apply to

17:37:56 polarbeard: jurov: sha would be large and annoying, date +%s would be enough I think

17:38:13 ascii_butugychag: why is there any difference ?

17:38:41 jurov: just a cosmetic difference

17:38:47 polarbeard: and timestamp also keep order

17:38:48 ascii_butugychag: nono this re: mod6's thing

17:39:02 ascii_butugychag: jurov: also why do we have sha1 in the mix

17:39:04 mod6: <+ascii_butugychag> the two trees, diffed. << i believe this is what I have and what you're looking for, is it not?

17:39:37 ascii_butugychag: mod6: something is very wrong here

17:39:46 mod6: ok, how?

17:39:50 ascii_butugychag: it is as if the pvs fix is not in one of the trees ?

17:40:01 mod6: it ~isn~

17:40:03 mod6: t

17:40:11 mod6: its only on the right hand side.

17:40:12 ascii_butugychag: well then this is not what i asked for

17:40:22 mod6: the left hand side is just the ~original~ patches + shiva

17:40:40 ascii_butugychag: i wanted to see a diff of my tree (pvs, and my pvs fix, and shiva, and the shiva fix) vs yours (where the patches and their bugfixes were agglomerated)

17:40:45 jurov: sha1 because i wanted to track files by contents and sha1 was at hand

17:40:55 ascii_butugychag: the trees, as i understand, ought to be ~the same~ after each scenario

17:41:04 jurov: since name+date was decided, will use that

17:41:52 ascii_butugychag: jurov: how will you deal with sigs produced after the patch submission date ?

17:41:59 ascii_butugychag: e.g., mircea_popescu signs my patch, etc

17:42:42 ascii_butugychag: also all existing vtrons, afaik, match sigs to patches by using the filename.

17:42:45 punkman: submitting patches with the same name kinda confuses things, maybe we could not do it instead?

17:43:06 jurov: punkman i said that, there were screams it's not vtronic

17:43:07 ascii_butugychag: i'm all for not-doing-it

17:43:13 polarbeard: ascii_butugychag: why can't sigs have the same timestamp?

17:43:32 ascii_butugychag: polarbeard: because sigs submitted arbitrarily later than the patch !!!

17:43:39 polarbeard: it's just a version string

17:43:45 ascii_butugychag: by OTHER PEOPLE

17:43:50 ascii_butugychag: who are not the patch author

17:43:56 polarbeard: it happens to be the unix time because is pseudo-universal

17:44:15 polarbeard: for the rate that patches get built I think it will be fine

17:44:29 ascii_butugychag: existing pgptrons do not, afaik, allow you to specify a custom timestamp

17:44:41 ascii_butugychag: and i have no intention of asking people to use a patched pgptron simply so they can use v

17:44:59 polarbeard: you're talking about the file metadata?

17:45:20 phf: hehe, poor ascii

17:46:08 jurov: anyway, matching the signature against all versions of one patch isn't so big thing to swallow

17:46:14 polarbeard: I mean a timestamp in the filename author_patch_thing_$(date +%s).vpatch

17:46:31 ascii_butugychag: jurov: sure but now every vtron would need to be rewritten to actually break down filenames

17:46:40 ascii_butugychag: and existing patches - renamed, etc

17:46:43 ascii_butugychag: this is nasty

17:46:56 ascii_butugychag: also using signature timestamps for anything is idiotic

17:47:08 ascii_butugychag: cardano for instance will NOT have a clock

17:47:12 ascii_butugychag: and produces CONSTANT timestamp.

17:48:25 polarbeard: still don't see how we can't have author_file_unixtime.vpatch and author_file_unixtime.vpatch.author.sig

17:48:34 jurov: actually no, people will rename them manually, the curation as you intended all along

17:48:41 polarbeard: and that would not require renaming past patches actually

17:49:28 ascii_butugychag: jurov: how about we have the simple and sane solution - a name can be used once.

17:49:33 ascii_butugychag: submit duplicate ? rejected.

17:49:43 ascii_butugychag: not duplicate? accepted, without motherfucking mangling

17:49:47 ascii_butugychag: for all time.

17:49:54 jurov: i am sooooo in favot of adding another hurdle to turdatron!!!

17:50:07 ascii_butugychag: this is not a hurdle.

17:50:09 ascii_butugychag: it is sanity.

17:50:30 ascii_butugychag: demanding that world move and rearrange itself because somebody wants to reuse a name, is lunacy.

17:50:59 ascii_butugychag: this also handily LEAVES ALONE all existing vtrons

17:51:10 ascii_butugychag: does not require 1000 extra lines of regex crapola in any.

17:51:11 ascii_butugychag: etc

17:51:43 jurov: !up ascii_butugychag

17:51:46 ascii_butugychag: ~patch submitter~ has the responsibility of coming up with a unique name.

17:52:10 ascii_butugychag: every. single. time.

17:52:53 polarbeard: so no patch replacements?

17:53:16 ascii_butugychag: no. imho it is the entirely wrong way to go about it.

17:53:30 ascii_butugychag: mod6, ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu, et al can produce curated trees simply by signing.

17:53:44 ascii_butugychag: using renaming for curation is intensely anti-vtronic.

17:54:15 jurov: i agree, let's have unique names

17:54:21 ascii_butugychag: finally.

17:55:27 polarbeard: I completely see unique names are a must, but if you don't replace you'll keep mistakes in the tree?

17:55:40 ascii_butugychag: the mistakes live forever.

17:55:46 ascii_butugychag: BUT they are not in the longest chain!

17:55:51 ascii_butugychag: they get orphaned.

17:55:58 ascii_butugychag: this is intrinsic to how v works

17:56:01 ascii_butugychag: and the whole point of it.

17:56:08 polarbeard: oh, now I see the complete picture

17:56:15 ascii_butugychag: every patch ever written ~is in the tree~ as it appears to archaeologists

17:56:23 ascii_butugychag: mod6 doesn't have to host it on his site

17:56:45 ascii_butugychag: but the global, imaginary tree contains all vpatches ever authored

17:56:50 mod6: ascii_butugychag: http://dpaste.com/18AKCK5.txt

17:56:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kql2lC )

17:57:14 ascii_butugychag: your local one consists of all of the ones you downloaded for which you have the signatures you accept as valid

17:57:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65929 @ 0.00055938 = 36.8794 BTC [-] {6}

17:57:44 ascii_butugychag: mod6: ok now ~that's~ it

17:57:46 ascii_butugychag: neato!

17:57:48 ascii_butugychag: ty mod6

17:57:52 mod6: ok np

17:57:53 ascii_butugychag: safe to fire.

17:58:02 ascii_butugychag: no apparent differences.

17:58:12 phf: fwiw deleting a patch doesn't "remove it" as such, but ensures that all descendants are unpressable

17:58:25 mod6: i guess that makes sense you wanted to see it that way - i thought the first way just because that way there ~is~ a diff to look at. but maybe this is better.

17:58:42 ascii_butugychag: phf: not so much unpressable, but that ~you~ lost the ancestors

17:59:07 ascii_butugychag: mod6: waitasec

17:59:10 mod6: sup

17:59:25 ascii_butugychag: what i am expecting to see in a correct press is for the trees to be IDENTICAL

17:59:38 ascii_butugychag: your patches ought to add up to same thing as mine did

18:00:12 mod6: are they not identical?

18:00:27 ascii_butugychag: looks like they are

18:00:38 ascii_butugychag: supposing that your vtron works correctly

18:00:53 ascii_butugychag: this means that the new patches have the same effect as the old.

18:01:13 mod6: well, hopefully my vtron works correctly.

18:01:52 *: ascii_butugychag is still not sure why it was necessary to discard the history and compress the old patch + its fix into a new one

18:02:05 ascii_butugychag: but looks like it was done correctly.

18:02:36 mod6: i dunno either now, that was a giant pain in the ass.

18:02:48 ascii_butugychag: i mean hey, it's ~my~ history of bug-crapping that is being whitewashed over, so i shouldn't complain... but still

18:03:40 mod6: in other news, ive got a patch for V that's not only the fix for the post-press hash checking, but also for the problem when running the graphing tool with a node that has no decendants. and a couple of small cleanup things.

18:03:48 ascii_butugychag: neato!

18:03:57 mod6: I'll probably just send the patch to the ML to recruit people to help me test over the next two weeks.

18:04:12 mod6: (with some instructions etc)

18:04:14 PeterL: if you have patches a->b->c and you decide to get rid of b, you should end up with a->b->c->(-b), not with a->c' (where c' is reground c without b patch) , do I understand correct?

18:04:28 mod6: then if all is good, i'll roll up another publication of the whole thing & call it v99995

18:04:34 ascii_butugychag: PeterL: aha, i call this an 'antipatch'

18:04:37 ascii_butugychag: or antimatter patch

18:04:58 PeterL: is the antimatter patch the correct way to do it?

18:04:58 mod6: ok lunch time!

18:05:06 ascii_butugychag: PeterL: imho it is.

18:05:11 punkman: darcs also has "inverse patches" in their "theory"

18:05:25 ascii_butugychag: and i officially consider regrinds a thing to be avoided if at all physically possible

18:05:59 ascii_butugychag: they smack of pious fraud, 'this was always perfect, born of the gods'

18:06:18 shinohai: o/ mod6 didja get some sleep ?

18:06:28 PeterL: why not just regrind all the patches off the genesis and act like we fixed it in one blow?

18:06:29 punkman: don't we have to be careful with the antipatches though, so as not to introduce cycles in the graph?

18:07:05 ascii_butugychag: punkman: if a patch creates a cycle, it is ipso facto invalid.

18:07:14 ascii_butugychag: (and this oughta be checked for by a vtron)

18:07:38 ascii_butugychag: and it is trivially possible to unwind to arbitrary point without creating a cycle

18:07:42 ascii_butugychag: (leave a comment.)

18:07:58 PeterL: so in my example, if you add a patch d, it could equally be added to (-b) or (c') ?

18:08:20 punkman: ascii_butugychag: right, I guess good time to remind people

18:08:37 ascii_butugychag: PeterL: definitely not

18:08:49 ascii_butugychag: as that would require the hash of (-b) and (c') to be equal

18:08:49 PeterL: why not?

18:08:53 ascii_butugychag: which would be a cycle.

18:09:01 PeterL: wouldn't they be equal?

18:09:24 ascii_butugychag: draw this on paper.

18:09:40 ascii_butugychag: no cycles.

18:09:41 ascii_butugychag: ever.

18:09:43 ascii_butugychag: this is axiomatic.

18:10:43 punkman: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Understanding_Darcs/Patch_theory#Commutation

18:10:43 assbot: Understanding Darcs/Patch theory - Wikibooks, open books for an open world ... ( http://bit.ly/1UKKpPF )

18:11:58 ascii_butugychag: 'To understand commutation, you should understand why we cannot keep our original patches, but are forced to rely on evil step sisters instead.' << seems like they solved it in the PRECISELY most-anti-vtronic way.

18:12:03 ascii_butugychag: which is mega-unsurprising

18:12:11 ascii_butugychag: because they aren't tmsr and do not have our axioms.

18:12:37 phf: (peace be upon them

18:13:03 ascii_butugychag: l0l

18:14:10 ascii_butugychag: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395502 << mega-recommended to mircea_popescu , great for some indigestion

18:14:10 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:10:43; punkman: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Understanding_Darcs/Patch_theory#Commutation

18:16:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23450 @ 0.00056299 = 13.2021 BTC [+] {2}

18:17:43 punkman: ascii_butugychag: this looks useful when regrinding things https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Understanding_Darcs/Patch_theory#The_complex_undo_revisited

18:17:43 assbot: Understanding Darcs/Patch theory - Wikibooks, open books for an open world ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kqo5u2 )

18:19:06 PeterL: ascii_butugychag> as that would require the hash of (-b) and (c') to be equal << is it looking at the hash of the pressed value, which should be the same, or the hash of the patches themselves, which I understand are quite different?

18:22:08 PeterL: !up ascii_butugychag

18:42:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9250 @ 0.00056246 = 5.2028 BTC [-] {2}

18:47:24 mod6: <+shinohai> o/ mod6 didja get some sleep ? << ah ya. no worries :]

18:50:49 jurov: http://www.iflscience.com/technology/new-lithium-battery-5-times-better-current-ones lithium superoxide to every pocket!

18:50:50 assbot: New Lithium Battery Is Five Times Better Than Current Ones | IFLScience ... ( http://bit.ly/1NQp15Z )

18:51:25 shinohai: "This also means that Gavins assumptions/estimates regarding the usage for 20 MB blocks unfortunately were very wrong:" https://redd.it/440cq6

18:51:27 assbot: Setup and stats of my full node : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1NQp5T4 )

18:52:30 phf: so there's two sig's that are not sha512. genesis.vpatch.trinque.sig is sha256 and polarbeard_add_getpeerinfo_rpc.vpatch.polarbeard.sig is sha1

18:54:40 phf: perhaps something that v should filter by

18:57:01 mod6: !up ascii_butugychag

18:57:18 mod6: ascii_butugychag: here's another look at the difference between both via sha512 hash diff: http://dpaste.com/0SAENPF.txt

18:57:20 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1NQpLI9 )

19:00:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17473 @ 0.00055933 = 9.7732 BTC [-] {2}

19:01:25 phf: i was trying to see if could look up the corresponding vpatch by decoding the sig's hash, and then assoc into a precomputed map of vpatch hashes. unfortunately openpgp concats the sig header to the payload, so can't precompute :/

19:06:51 jurov: phf this was tried several times but since the hash in the signature is done with a date and whatnot,

19:07:03 jurov: it can't be used to identify signed document

19:08:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00055933 = 2.545 BTC [-]

19:10:42 ascii_butugychag: aha this was the first major 'pgp is broken beyond repair' thread, iirc.

19:20:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22332 @ 0.00055933 = 12.491 BTC [-]

19:27:35 mod6: !up ascii_butugychag

19:42:39 danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395265 << i have it tail -f'ing split on a monitor along with my Eulora explore bot logs, always in my periphery

19:42:39 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:01:22; ascii_butugychag: does nobody but me actually watch their trb logs ?

19:43:06 danielpbarron: although honestly the Eulora log is way more interesting

19:44:15 thestringpuller: as are most RPG logs

19:47:52 mod6: i read trb logs every day. who doesn't?

19:48:04 mod6: nearly 5 years now.

19:48:34 ascii_butugychag: wai wut

19:48:46 ascii_butugychag: trb is what, 14 mo. old ?

19:49:05 mod6: oh thought you meant #b-a

19:49:17 mod6: trb logs === mailing list?

19:49:36 ascii_butugychag: no

19:49:40 ascii_butugychag: debug.log

19:49:41 ascii_butugychag: l0l

19:49:48 mod6: oooh. hhahah

19:50:08 mod6: duh duh durr durrr durrr durr dur dur

19:50:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4250 @ 0.00056395 = 2.3968 BTC [+] {2}

20:02:18 trinque: speaking of which, thanks to the helping hand of the other republic nodes, deedbot.org is a fully synced trb public node

20:02:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00056396 = 3.3838 BTC [+]

20:03:15 mod6: cool!

20:03:19 mod6: !up ascii_butugychag

20:03:28 ascii_butugychag: congrats trinque !

20:04:47 felipelalli: Thank you trinque!

20:08:23 jurov: felipelalli: http://bitcoinwot.com/ what does this do?

20:08:24 assbot: Bitcoin OTC WoT para preguiçosos ... ( http://bit.ly/209J0DH )

20:08:57 jurov: (linked from http://deedbot.org/deed-396348-1.txt ... maybe unicode was the problem)

20:08:58 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/209J3zt )

20:09:46 trinque: jurov: nah, deedbot is still jammed until I get trb to send the next bundle

20:09:56 trinque: I've got my key imported (via pywallet into wallet.dat)

20:10:08 trinque: going to poke it more in a bit

20:10:28 mod6: kewl. i seem to recall having to do a -rescan afterward but i could be wrong

20:10:37 mod6: (after importing privkey)

20:10:46 trinque: ah k

20:15:23 felipelalli: jurov, it is the Bitcoin OTC WoT for the lazy

20:18:35 felipelalli: but it is version zero, only alpha, not so serious yet.

20:18:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16250 @ 0.0005635 = 9.1569 BTC [-] {4}

20:19:02 felipelalli: trinque, the start of the problem was my expired key, wasn't it?

20:19:07 trinque: nope, coincidental

20:19:48 trinque: for some reason my concoction of pybitcointools and btcd stopped making valid transactions

20:20:39 ascii_butugychag: felipelalli: java, winblowz ?!

20:21:04 ascii_butugychag: when do we get 'reactor controlz for the lazy'

20:21:25 *: shinohai saw that .jar file, clicked off.

20:22:06 jurov: felipelalli: i can see, but...user that doesn't know how to make a signature or talk to gribble don't have anything to do in otc

20:22:11 felipelalli: ascii_butugychag, unfortunately yes.

20:22:52 ascii_butugychag: felipelalli: you say this as if you had no choice ?

20:23:04 felipelalli: jurov, I understand. But it is being very useful so far in Brazilian community. Actually the app can sign messages (not verify it yet)

20:23:43 jurov: what doies "very useful" mean?

20:24:49 danielpbarron: let me see if i can make one of those funny metaphores out of this: "that's like a cock that can get you pregnant, but you can't have sex with it"

20:25:10 felipelalli: lol, I knew that you guys would say that.

20:25:47 PeterL: Do they not have real computers in Brazil?

20:26:24 BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> when do we get 'reactor controlz for the lazy' << In Japan. Turns out Fukushima was running off of one of those dollar store Sharp organizers.

20:26:26 felipelalli: jurov, they are learning the importance of the thing, at least, I hope. They are learning the importance to make solid contracts and verify the people reputation.

20:26:53 ascii_butugychag: solid, verified, in java on winblowz aha.

20:26:56 ascii_butugychag: l0l.

20:27:24 ascii_butugychag: cattle have a place.

20:27:26 ascii_butugychag: men have a place.

20:27:28 felipelalli: ascii_butugychag, yes. my first idea was make this 100% web, but the IRC let me crazy. So I had just two dawns to implement it, I choose the cheapest for my good will and the win version is because they demanded it

20:27:37 ascii_butugychag: cow-man chimera - is grotesque.

20:28:02 felipelalli: ascii_butugychag, I didn't ask you to use it, didn't I?

20:28:09 felipelalli: *did I?

20:28:27 danielpbarron: why not just have an html form with no illusions of crypto; would be infinitely more useful for your purposes

20:28:28 BingoBoingo: felipelalli: What you should do for great lolz is depreciate the windows version.

20:28:30 ascii_butugychag: no. but i was curious what felipelalli was thinking when he produced this.

20:29:03 BingoBoingo: Get them hooked, pull the rug out from under them, see which ones swim.

20:29:10 felipelalli: lol

20:29:49 BingoBoingo: <ascii_butugychag> cow-man chimera - is grotesque. << to be fair this is kinda what bitcoin-otc has become already...

20:29:54 phf: today lazy, tomorrow dead. poor technology choices kill. this message was brought to you by the tmsr agitprop dpt

20:30:04 BingoBoingo: !b 1

20:30:06 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2A5YQBM.txt )

20:30:30 felipelalli: I am writing an article about the importance of the Bitcoin OTC WoT. This image is part of it: http://i.imgur.com/tHVbbva.png

20:30:31 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1nNO3xY )

20:30:39 felipelalli: do you guys recommend me some material to read before publish it?

20:31:10 danielpbarron: these very logs

20:31:45 danielpbarron: or are you going to spend another 6 months not reading it?

20:31:55 felipelalli: danielpbarron, it is already for sure.

20:32:01 felipelalli: danielpbarron, plus some fraudsters posts

20:32:40 thestringpuller: "[We should see Bitcoin classic use ramp up] after binaries are released. Most people don't want to compile". << These people really shouldn't be involved in Bitcoin. Like going to war without learning to clean gun.

20:32:41 danielpbarron: ok and why are your brazillian friends any different?

20:32:56 felipelalli: danielpbarron, they are lazy?

20:33:02 danielpbarron: why are you friends with the lazy?

20:34:04 BingoBoingo: felipelalli: I suggest two more pictures: result of abandoning windows https://i.imgur.com/d1EbJSa.jpg and end game of using windows https://sli.mg/a/pssVpQ

20:34:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/209L7r5 )

20:34:06 assbot: Eats to much ... ( http://bit.ly/209L7r9 )

20:34:15 BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag

20:34:28 felipelalli: BingoBoingo, I don't use Windows.

20:34:40 felipelalli: the exe I generated with a tool inside a VM

20:34:53 BingoBoingo: felipelalli: SUre, but your people do. Those pictures help make the case for the lazy.

20:35:04 felipelalli: danielpbarron, good question. Because if I don't, I feel too lonely? :D

20:35:10 felipelalli: ahahhaaha

20:35:11 danielpbarron: so be lonely

20:35:38 BingoBoingo: related danielpbarron If you want to keep triggering fatties on twitter you gotta study and learn to deliver the lines yourself.

20:35:39 felipelalli: ahhaha BingoBoingo so true.

20:35:44 danielpbarron: and since when do you need to pretend to sign contracts with someone to get along with them?

20:36:46 felipelalli: danielpbarron, because I am nerd?

20:37:06 danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, that thread man.. 40k impressions and like.. that one reply. A whole sea of watchers, the highest level of involvement they can handle is "liking" something

20:37:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8422 @ 0.00056532 = 4.7611 BTC [+] {2}

20:38:33 danielpbarron: and since when is 'nerd' a compliment? that's related to the fatty thing

20:38:40 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Still, you gotta learn the slurs and work on a more natural delivery I recommend just sticking reading the text posts here https://voat.co/v/fatpeoplehate/

20:38:42 assbot: If you can't beetus, join us! - Now with 50% more ramen! ... ( http://bit.ly/209LqlF )

20:38:44 danielpbarron: you should be ashamed to be a nerd

20:38:44 thestringpuller: danielpbarron: you a twitter celebrity now?

20:38:49 danielpbarron: hardly

20:38:55 felipelalli: danielpbarron, I am.

20:39:16 danielpbarron: ok then, cast off those nerd phreinds, spend more time in here

20:39:17 felipelalli: and I am ashamed to trying to help the lazy people! But it is being fun.

20:39:19 felipelalli: at least.

20:39:37 BingoBoingo: felipelalli: Find news in Brazil and please to qntra it up.

20:40:10 danielpbarron: thestringpuller, i got into it with a fairly popular girly about "nice guys" and sexual dominance or something; turns out i think we were agreeing with eachother without realizing it

20:40:13 felipelalli: BingoBoingo, say about the Brazilian Bitcoin market is a good thing? For example?

20:40:49 BingoBoingo: felipelalli: Maybe work up to that. Maybe start by chronicling socialist evils perpetuated by your government

20:41:02 felipelalli: BingoBoingo, good idea.

20:41:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00056693 = 2.4378 BTC [+]

20:42:11 felipelalli: I am going to my swimming lesson now. Thanks for the obvious comments that I was expecting. I tried to hide from you, but you got me! outch!

20:43:17 ben_vulpes: poor trinque

20:43:21 BingoBoingo: felipelalli: Anyways it's a better use of time doing things that can't be done on windows and making your friends want to leave the windows favella than just doing everything for them.

20:43:47 ben_vulpes: he probably destroyed what's left of the trinquetop in rage

20:44:19 trinque: eh I knew that ball of duct tape and twine wasn't going to last

20:44:23 BingoBoingo: Of all the #b-a projects, deedbot's probably up there for frustration induced

20:44:33 ben_vulpes: > mikebook

20:44:39 trinque: and now... there's shiva !

20:44:51 ben_vulpes: hey you're patching an eatrawtx into shiva then?

20:44:52 felipelalli: BingoBoingo, not all of them are my "friends". Actually I want to identify the bad actors in the community. I could implement an automatic -1 from me for who install the exe version!! lol

20:44:57 felipelalli: thank you!! see you.

20:45:33 trinque: ben_vulpes: new deedbot code's all CL; would be nice and tidy to be crapping sexp commands into shiva from it

20:45:48 ben_vulpes: eval-over-socket

20:46:41 ascii_butugychag: shiva most desperately needs session persistence

20:46:50 BingoBoingo: http://www.askamanager.org/2015/09/i-was-fired-after-a-stranger-sent-photos-of-my-private-text-messages-to-my-employer.html

20:46:53 assbot: I was fired after a stranger sent photos of my private text messages to my employer — Ask a Manager ... ( http://bit.ly/1nNPSLr )

20:46:53 ascii_butugychag: that is, currently, a shiva runtime is destroyed on hangup

20:46:59 ben_vulpes: ;;later tell funkenstein_ yo are you going to submit that privkey import backport to the ml?

20:46:59 gribble: The operation succeeded.

20:47:09 trinque: ben_vulpes: first I'm getting deed txns going by using the trb wallet; I don't want to have to wait for an implementation of eatrawtx to resume deeds

20:48:34 ascii_butugychag: it does ~not~ need persistent sessions for ~any~ rpc-style usage scenario, note

20:48:35 phf: if i have a gpgme key instance, is there some way to patch its trust level?

20:48:42 ascii_butugychag: i am merely stating this for the benefit of noobz

20:48:57 ben_vulpes: ascii_butugychag: aha

20:49:06 ben_vulpes: 'stateless protocol'

20:49:28 phf: doesn't need persistent for slime type use either. can just connect and mainloop, so the state will be around for duration of session?

20:49:37 ascii_butugychag: nope, it does

20:49:45 ascii_butugychag: right now if you try to use slime-like item with shiva,

20:49:51 ascii_butugychag: you end up with ONE repl at a time

20:49:51 phf: oh it locks..

20:49:55 ascii_butugychag: aha

20:50:05 ascii_butugychag: well it doesn't lock, but it gives you one lisp world per telnet connection

20:50:10 ascii_butugychag: which dies when the latter dies.

20:50:24 ascii_butugychag: and the only thing the worlds share is their trb image

20:50:47 ascii_butugychag: which - when we actually get shiva hooks that ~modify~ as well as read - does have a global lock

20:51:15 ascii_butugychag: so right now a shiva session is really a very 'obese' rpc call

20:51:24 ascii_butugychag: spins up a whole lisp universe for just a command or two

20:51:33 danielpbarron: speaking of obese, from BingoBoingo's linked article >> But for what it's worth, you yourself aren't coming out smelling like a rose here -- and not because of your actions in this story, but because of your commentary on it: You have a pretty gross attitude toward overweight people. << haha found the fatty! (TM)

20:51:35 ascii_butugychag: however, persisting shiva isn't a trivial thing

20:51:44 ascii_butugychag: because it needs to disconnect & reconnect i/o terms

20:51:54 ascii_butugychag: and this will require modifications of tinyscheme proper

20:51:56 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: See, you're learning

20:52:00 ascii_butugychag: (which is why i didn't do it)

20:55:24 thestringpuller: ascii_butugychag: re: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-January/000198.html << what needs to happen for this not need to be handled with radiation suit?

20:57:04 ascii_butugychag: thestringpuller: for starters, to find all of the 10,001 buffer overflows in tinyscheme and fix

20:57:16 ascii_butugychag: but even then, a debugger that listens on tcp is a dangerous thing to have around

20:57:33 ascii_butugychag: esp. once it is actually a debugger and not simply a lame proof of concept as now

20:57:51 thestringpuller: aha. so pretty much ~only~ for labratory use as stated.

20:57:54 BingoBoingo: To be fair, it may not need whole radiation suit, a glove box may be fine.

20:58:40 ascii_butugychag: i don't think i will ~ever~ recommend tinyscheme on a box which carries live-fire coin.

20:58:46 ascii_butugychag: we will write our own scheme.

20:59:11 ascii_butugychag: with no motherfucking 'idiomatic c'/

20:59:12 ascii_butugychag: .

20:59:16 thestringpuller: cowboy coding and debugging on production is for the truly brave.

20:59:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9300 @ 0.00056222 = 5.2286 BTC [-] {3}

21:01:39 *: phf likes how tinyscheme doesn't check arity

21:03:01 phf: in other news takes 13.78 seconds to match all patches to all sigs with elimination on my laptop

21:04:13 ascii_butugychag: phf: O(N^2)

21:04:22 ascii_butugychag: gonna only get worse.

21:04:51 mod6: !up ascii_butugychag

21:07:55 ascii_butugychag: phf: it is very minimal; no free lunch

21:31:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21756 @ 0.00055922 = 12.1664 BTC [-] {3}

21:32:56 deedbot-: [Qntra] Ebay Has No Plans To Stop Being A Vector For Malware Propagation - http://qntra.net/2016/02/ebay-has-no-plans-to-stop-being-a-vector-for-malware-propagation/

21:36:05 BingoBoingo: !up ascii_butugychag

21:45:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13929 @ 0.00056777 = 7.9085 BTC [+] {3}

22:03:05 mircea_popescu: so i've just been shopping in the tiniest shop i have ever seen.

22:03:23 deedbot-: [Qntra] Alan Reiner Quits Armory as Multi-Year Commercialization Effort Fails - http://qntra.net/2016/02/alan-reiner-quits-armory-as-multi-year-commercialization-effort-fails/

22:03:31 BingoBoingo: ^ A lol

22:03:57 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: What sort of wears were in the tiny shop?

22:04:02 mircea_popescu: it's inconceivable without seeing it. like 20 sq feet affair that was maybe five foot tall, you had to go in two fucking steps. and then the actual shop, down a steep flight of stairs, another 30 sqft or so i guess.

22:04:13 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo best slutwear thing in buenos aires, by a large margin.

22:04:19 BingoBoingo: Aha

22:04:42 mircea_popescu: i bought things so small you could carry them inside your nostril.

22:05:23 BingoBoingo: Tis the natural order of things

22:06:20 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395329 << this is an impossible question to answer tho. what do you mean "what to do"

22:06:20 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:28:22; jurov: lxr may be vtronic *if and when* someone takes my questions serious. so, asking again, what to do with reground or otherwise resubmitted patches?

22:08:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13850 @ 0.00056555 = 7.8329 BTC [-] {3}

22:10:33 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395341 << no. pgp date is meaningless.

22:10:33 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:30:57; polarbeard: otherwise just check the sig date using pgp, last patch wins

22:13:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21200 @ 0.00056485 = 11.9748 BTC [-]

22:14:12 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395399 << ofcoursetheydo

22:14:12 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:44:29; ascii_butugychag: existing pgptrons do not, afaik, allow you to specify a custom timestamp

22:16:48 thestringpuller: slutware that's a good phrase

22:16:52 danielpbarron: lemme guess, change system time?

22:17:01 trinque: mod6: I did a rescan but don't see my key as part of the default "account". I'll fiddle with the wallet.dat a bit more, then take a look at backporting that importprivkey

22:17:08 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395415 << cue very angry alf "it rejected my thing!111"

22:17:08 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:49:33; ascii_butugychag: submit duplicate ? rejected.

22:17:13 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron quite.

22:18:20 mod6: trinque: hmm. yah, i had to like use that tool, do a rescan and a restart, and then it was in there. but yea, that back port, if sane, would be best.

22:18:38 trinque: mod6: the tool you used was pywallet ?

22:18:45 mod6: sounds like it.

22:18:54 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395421 <<< from now you will be known as hashislav because stanislav was taken long ago

22:18:54 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:50:30; ascii_butugychag: demanding that world move and rearrange itself because somebody wants to reuse a name, is lunacy.

22:19:28 punkman: archive.is is returning a loading gif here, anyone else?

22:20:18 BingoBoingo: punkman: Yeah

22:20:20 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395431 << i dunno that i renamed anything when signing it. i thought thatg's how we do it, i take the original v.pl and turn it into v.pl.me.sig

22:20:20 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:53:44; ascii_butugychag: using renaming for curation is intensely anti-vtronic.

22:20:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.0005626 = 7.2575 BTC [-] {2}

22:21:02 mod6: yah, that's how my sigs look for v.pl: v.pl.mod6.sig

22:22:08 mircea_popescu: http://dpaste.com/3VTH8EN << confirmed this is what i get from archive.is

22:22:10 assbot: dpaste: 3VTH8EN ... ( http://bit.ly/1X48dQ7 )

22:26:05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395437 << so if i make a script to fuck whores and i call it fuckwhores.pl and then it's mistaken and abandoned now i'm stuck using sexingsluts.pl instead and if that also gets burned i'll end up doing intromissiveman1pulationofwillingwenches.pl ?

22:26:05 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:55:51; ascii_butugychag: they get orphaned.

22:26:54 punkman: no

22:27:02 mircea_popescu: well i can't reuse a name can i.

22:27:11 punkman: yeah but these are patches not scripts

22:27:18 mircea_popescu: same difference.

22:27:22 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu punkman: This is what archive.is tends to do when it's overloaded.

22:28:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395440 << how about the logical thing, unique names PER TREE.

22:28:27 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:56:08; polarbeard: oh, now I see the complete picture

22:28:44 mircea_popescu: i can make as many fuckwhores.vpatch as i want, but only one can end up in any given tree.

22:29:48 danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, it's been 'overloaded' all day it seems

22:30:08 punkman: blog's still there http://blog.archive.is/

22:30:09 assbot: Archive.is blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1nO3vKp )

22:30:48 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: And Qntra/fraudsters have been down for a week plus at a time when overloaded.

22:30:50 mircea_popescu: "Also, I heard that people are more willing to help animals than other people. Thus the donations to a pet rescue fund can be seen as the upper estimate of how donation to the webpage capture project would perform."

22:30:51 mircea_popescu: ahaha

22:33:01 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395474 << in your case you should end up with a->c'. if there's a much longer chain then the -b method makes more sense.

22:33:01 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:04:14; PeterL: if you have patches a->b->c and you decide to get rid of b, you should end up with a->b->c->(-b), not with a->c' (where c' is reground c without b patch) , do I understand correct?

22:33:06 mircea_popescu: it's really up to the maintainers.

22:33:35 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395482 << no, antipatches are to be avoided if at all possible.

22:33:35 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:05:25; ascii_butugychag: and i officially consider regrinds a thing to be avoided if at all physically possible

22:33:41 mircea_popescu: the WRITER does the work, always. not the reader.

22:33:49 mircea_popescu: you don't like doing the work, don't fucking write.

22:33:52 mircea_popescu: too many people writing code as it is.

22:33:59 mircea_popescu: must be discouraged as much as possible.

22:34:22 mod6: put this in the cryptonomicon ^

22:34:28 mircea_popescu: srsly.

22:34:44 mircea_popescu: "oh boo hoo, i am too important and gmaxwell to fucking fix things, here's my useless code that everyone's going to be stuck with forever"

22:34:47 mircea_popescu: "go die in a tyre fire"

22:35:50 mircea_popescu: !up topynate

22:36:15 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395483 << no dude, it's just "i have enough respect for the reader to not go A^HB^HA^HB^HC

22:36:15 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:05:59; ascii_butugychag: they smack of pious fraud, 'this was always perfect, born of the gods'

22:37:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10226 @ 0.00055881 = 5.7144 BTC [-] {2}

22:37:14 punkman: regrind also creates work for readers

22:37:39 mircea_popescu: explain ?

22:38:02 topynate: hello all. thanks mircea_popescu

22:38:49 mircea_popescu: regrind, to be perfectly clear, is the act of making a tree out of patches instead of keeping them linear. this is a known efficiency-of-search trope, and i shouldn't have to explain how distributing the patches out saves work when i'm pressing 3 years later and want to read the whole string of patches from genesis.

22:38:56 mircea_popescu: topynate hey there. who're you again ?

22:40:15 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395522 << polarbeard seriously fix your pgp!

22:40:15 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:52:30; phf: so there's two sig's that are not sha512. genesis.vpatch.trinque.sig is sha256 and polarbeard_add_getpeerinfo_rpc.vpatch.polarbeard.sig is sha1

22:40:21 topynate: i wrote that bit on the block size at https://topynate.wordpress.com/2016/01/26/note-on-the-block-size-limit/ that you called "not terrible". i'm a math-literate developer.

22:40:22 assbot: Note on the block size limit | Particulars ... ( http://bit.ly/1RTYex2 )

22:40:38 thestringpuller: regrind is alt-version of patch, why can't it be applied linearly? (or at least force such a workflow)

22:40:50 topynate: !register 112F353F5A3EEEBE3B0E824A36F13568F209C5B0

22:40:50 assbot: Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: 112F353F5A3EEEBE3B0E824A36F13568F209C5B0. This may take a few moments.

22:40:50 assbot: Key F209C5B0 / "Nathan Daniel Cook <nathan.cook@gmail.com>" successfully imported.

22:40:50 assbot: Registration successful.

22:41:11 punkman: reading A->B->B(fixed) or A->B->B(regrind) is still 3 patches each

22:41:22 thestringpuller: ^

22:41:27 mircea_popescu: oh right!

22:41:41 mircea_popescu: punkman the first is a->b'

22:41:49 mircea_popescu: !rate topynate 1 Not terrible

22:41:49 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/813ea42d8e6d9d8a

22:42:10 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.topynate.1:011db29b9a8be532616ecfe1051d2b2dd5705a4e5b071812518538ee7b5d7f30

22:42:10 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for topynate with note: Not terrible

22:42:58 mircea_popescu: f

22:43:08 mircea_popescu: topynate now let's thrash this out. can you define "quota" ?

22:43:36 punkman: also could be valuable to see how B started out and then fixed, without having to diff the various versions of B patch

22:43:43 mircea_popescu: punkman why without ?

22:43:50 mircea_popescu: you want archeology, dig by all means.

22:44:10 mircea_popescu: besides, the same selective memory thing that was deliberately put into deedbot works here as well. some dead chains will be forgotten before others.

22:44:29 topynate: a binding limit on how much of something is made

22:44:33 mircea_popescu: understand that immutable systems are VERY dangerous in principle. your world is mutable.

22:44:46 mircea_popescu: topynate does it matter if its conventional or real ?

22:44:57 mircea_popescu: is h a quota ?

22:45:30 topynate: sorry, what's h?

22:45:34 mircea_popescu: planck's constant.

22:46:34 topynate: ah. no, i don't think you can stretch it that far. that would be like saying the total quantity of oil in the ground was a quota on oil production.

22:46:58 mircea_popescu: but it does meet your definition. "a binding limit on how much of something is made". it is binding, it is a limit, and it is on how much ofsomething can be made.

22:47:05 mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of stretching anything.

22:47:13 mircea_popescu: did you mean to say "a conventional limit" ?

22:48:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2800 @ 0.00055747 = 1.5609 BTC [-] {2}

22:49:32 topynate: yes. so long as it's a convention with teeth. e.g. opec's oil production quota used to be a real quota because enforcible, now it isn't

22:50:27 mircea_popescu: in this sense the argument can be brought that while the early block limit as implemented by miners (using 60% of the 1mb blocks) WAS a quota, the actual 1mb block size is not a quota at all,

22:50:36 mircea_popescu: but simply its own kind of universal constant.

22:50:41 mircea_popescu: what say you to that ?

22:53:03 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395578 << hey, he lives in a country where the poor buy tvs instead of fridges. what choice does he have, to move to wash dc ?

22:53:03 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:22:52; ascii_butugychag: felipelalli: you say this as if you had no choice ?

22:53:41 topynate: that would be remarkable; i can see the 1mb size being such a strong convention that no-one would have any expectation of successfully altering it, but unsure how it could have a universal nature like that of h

22:54:27 mircea_popescu: topynate well, consider that we can alter the value of h by altering the units of measurement. suppose all alteration of the 1mb block limit reduces to similarly a mere change in the units of measurement.

22:54:48 mircea_popescu: that'd be ONE way it could have such universal nature.

22:55:17 mircea_popescu: moreover, whether it does or might isn't the point. the point is, can you prove it doesn't have such nature ? because unless you can, speaking of it as a quota is iffy.

22:57:32 topynate: if it really is a universal constant, then there are a lot of wasted words on the block size limit, including my own - anyone trying to abrogate it will just fall flat on his face

22:57:35 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395581 <<< ahahaha ok, i laughed out loud.

22:57:35 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:24:49; danielpbarron: let me see if i can make one of those funny metaphores out of this: "that's like a cock that can get you pregnant, but you can't have sex with it"

22:57:58 mircea_popescu: topynate quite. consider, just for the sake of conversation, the situation of a child who rfound his father's musket.

22:58:09 mircea_popescu: now this child sees an apple in the tree, shoots at it and hits.

22:58:38 mircea_popescu: he then thinks to himself : "i could shoot as high or as low as i want, and the bullet wouldstill hit the apple, because i'm that special, and because that's what man made muskets for and how bullets work etc".

22:58:57 mircea_popescu: this IS of course true, provided the child manages to alter the powder charge too, so the bullet's speed and its angle are always in the right ratio.

22:59:23 mircea_popescu: we so far fired a single bullet out of a gun we don't even know who the fuck made. seems a lot of unwarranted cockyness all around for this little knowledge.

22:59:25 mircea_popescu: you know ?

23:00:50 topynate: nice koan. so istm your point is that the effort on fiddling with the parameters would be better spent on understanding why it works in the first place?

23:01:07 mircea_popescu: yes.

23:01:23 mircea_popescu: similarly to how my argument is that rather than "improving" bitcoin, that time'd be better spent fixing the codebase as it is.

23:01:40 mircea_popescu: an argument persuasive enough that the whole foundation and the most serene republic is hard at work doing just that.

23:01:59 mircea_popescu: which brings us to what this is all about.

23:05:23 topynate: ok - what's it about?

23:05:24 danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.topynate.1:226e5cfbd7f23a264f5b52ba305a97966ac4dfa28041b36feaf8944e880f301a

23:05:24 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for topynate with note: I showed him the log, and marvel of marvels, he joined!

23:06:00 mircea_popescu: no i mean, #bitcoin-assets etc. trying to understand how it works, fixing the code etc.

23:06:19 topynate: ah, i see. the project in toto

23:06:41 mircea_popescu: right.

23:06:51 thestringpuller: topynate: you can self voice now

23:06:56 mircea_popescu: you can voice yourself, send assbot !up in a pm

23:08:09 mircea_popescu: and for the record, the name for the opposite attitude used here is "power ranger". because totally.

23:08:57 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395111 << heh. i thought this commrade mighta been trinque's but it's not quite synced as far as he claims his btcd replacement for deedbot- is.

23:08:57 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 13:20:51; asciilifeform: 5x19x141x248.static-customer.iz.ertelecom.ru << in mircea_popescu's trb fleet ?

23:09:11 mircea_popescu: nope not mine.

23:09:17 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395112 << tevye was about the same. also yesterday.

23:09:17 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 13:29:59; asciilifeform: in other news, zoolag was blackholed for a record-breaking 8 hours.

23:09:55 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: soon my ip will be coming from 'russian federation' neh ;)

23:10:00 danielpbarron: !rated PeterL

23:10:00 assbot: You rated user PeterL on 14-Oct-2014, with a rating of -2, and supplied these additional notes: He made fetchbot, the bot that can't stay up..

23:10:04 danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.unrate.PeterL:f467e2281c524f35e0a463a15b4378ac0cb531bfb107a7ecd58d5a5a0dd3d753

23:10:04 assbot: Successfully unrated PeterL

23:11:58 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395247 << i've had to restart as well every 2-5 days in the last 3 weeks. same 'network' issues causing lag of 10-100 blocks. fixed instantly by restart, new peer discovery.

23:11:58 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 16:52:32; ascii_butugychag: restart - always cures

23:12:09 mircea_popescu: odd.

23:12:31 pete_dushenski: i'm not sure that it is for a public node.

23:13:31 pete_dushenski: for a '-connect' private node ? probably, but every single '-addnode' public node, save asciilifeform's majick baltic node, seems to variously lag before restarting, at least as far as i can follow from bitnodes.io

23:13:53 pete_dushenski: which i follow quite a bit !

23:14:53 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395265 << yes. but maybe it's a n00bish fascination thing i have.

23:14:53 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:01:22; ascii_butugychag: does nobody but me actually watch their trb logs ?

23:15:31 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395266 << ~0.5x time is 'connecting' and 'disconnecting'. seems inefficient, but maybe that's the price of a distributed network ?

23:15:31 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 17:01:32; ascii_butugychag: these things spend a good chunk of their time not node-in !1111

23:15:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2000 @ 0.00056796 = 1.1359 BTC [+] {2}

23:16:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4500 @ 0.0005679 = 2.5556 BTC [-]

23:16:53 danielpbarron: !rated cazalla

23:16:53 assbot: You rated user cazalla on 18-Aug-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: Dedicated reporter..

23:16:56 danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.cazalla.2:4faa087a63fca71433abc1847b38cbecbecb4a5e54b6c5580459bc5699d9e437

23:16:56 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for cazalla from 3 to 2 with note: friend of the Republic, former qntra guy

23:17:22 pete_dushenski: the alternative (atm) is a ~fixed~ set of peers determined at random on start-up, as seen in 'multibit', which i can tell you from first hand experience this week has not been broadcasting select transactions from select keys. at all. and this is in no way fixable.

23:17:47 pete_dushenski: so if it sounds shitty to have a node blackholed, imagine having a ~privkey~ blackholed.

23:18:20 pete_dushenski: even after reviewing 'multibit' error logs, it was in no way clear to me how or why this should even be possible.

23:18:46 pete_dushenski: but that's what you get for sucking mike hearn's dong and expecting a cream soda to come gushing out.

23:19:37 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395591 << can be hawt. http://costumefail.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cow-costume-mug-shot-201x300.jpg

23:19:37 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:27:37; ascii_butugychag: cow-man chimera - is grotesque.

23:19:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1SIeb8q )

23:19:39 pete_dushenski: so an idiot is me and i feel sorry for anyone who tries to do bitcoin casually because there's no goddam way.

23:21:09 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395603 << that;'s actually pretty good.

23:21:09 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:30:30; felipelalli: I am writing an article about the importance of the Bitcoin OTC WoT. This image is part of it: http://i.imgur.com/tHVbbva.png

23:21:11 pete_dushenski: bitcoin's too complicated, too barbed, too thorny, too messy, and too time-consuming for sortakindausers. this is obviously an asset in a great many ways, but it can still be frustrating for persistent folks. not that this is news to everyone beating prb into trb....

23:21:36 pete_dushenski: /rant

23:23:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7284 @ 0.00056849 = 4.1409 BTC [+] {3}

23:24:15 danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.fghj.2:59c19cc150c5e92a3011a3467c72ce48fc26901b8c18fc63405b5624e380c612

23:24:15 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 2 for fghj with note: very useful Eulora noob

23:24:24 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski well... being worked on

23:25:11 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395641 << isn't this how intergender discussion usually goes ?

23:25:11 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:40:10; danielpbarron: thestringpuller, i got into it with a fairly popular girly about "nice guys" and sexual dominance or something; turns out i think we were agreeing with eachother without realizing it

23:25:34 phf: mircea_popescu: osmething like this http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation

23:25:35 assbot: asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation ... ( http://bit.ly/1P7F2Zl )

23:25:47 mircea_popescu: hm ?

23:26:21 phf: signers for the whole press, vs. signers for individual vpatches

23:26:39 mircea_popescu: wait what! you can't sign a whole press

23:27:03 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395651 < wow. i never had a problem with it.

23:27:03 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:44:23; BingoBoingo: Of all the #b-a projects, deedbot's probably up there for frustration induced

23:27:12 mircea_popescu: well... for a while i kept sending it nonraw dpastes, but hey.

23:27:34 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I mean for the operators

23:27:37 phf: the set of people necessary to produce current set? or i possibly misunderstood the thread

23:27:45 phf: *current press

23:28:05 mircea_popescu: oh oh sorry. i get now what you're saying. lessee

23:28:38 mircea_popescu: phf well it's ok-ish in the sense that i have all the data to try and do the work by my own eyes.

23:29:07 phf: and what's the work?

23:29:20 mircea_popescu: but how i'd expect this to look is C (asciilifeform mircea_popescu mod6 trinque) D (asciilifeform), (mod6)

23:29:39 mircea_popescu: meaning that all those contributed and the press depends on either a set made out of alf or a set made out of mod6

23:30:17 mircea_popescu: phf and i don't need to see anything re genesis etc. just about the final destination.

23:31:11 mircea_popescu: am i being comprehensible ?

23:32:07 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395662 << not even sure this is a bad thing

23:32:07 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 20:46:53; ascii_butugychag: that is, currently, a shiva runtime is destroyed on hangup

23:32:53 mircea_popescu: oh nm i see downstream in teh logs.

23:33:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3300 @ 0.00056983 = 1.8804 BTC [+]

23:33:31 phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not groking but i realized that i need to take a break and eat instead of derping on a computer any longer, so i'll get back to you on that one

23:35:27 shinohai: !s http://www.dailydot.com/politics/dogecoin-moolah-alex-green-ryan-kennedy-rape-accusation/

23:35:28 assbot: Ryan Kennedy, founder of Dogecoin exchange Moolah, charged with raping 5 women ... ( http://bit.ly/1SIgEzX )

23:35:29 assbot: 0 results for 'http://www.dailydot.com/politics/dogecoin-moolah-alex-green-ryan-kennedy-rape-accusation/' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailydot.com%2Fpolitics%2Fdogecoin-moolah-alex-green-ryan-kennedy-rape-accusation%2F

23:36:26 pete_dushenski: "Blockstream, a tech startup that employs several core developers of the bitcoin protocol, has raised $55 million in venture capital to develop its sidechain technology and expand its global operations." [...] "Horizons Ventures, AXA Strategic Ventures and Digital Garage led the Series A funding round, which brings the startup's total venture funding to $76 million to date." << all this paper (and cardamon smell) and

23:36:26 pete_dushenski: y still can't buy 10% of asciilifeform's time nor 10% of mod6's. fancy that :)

23:38:02 mircea_popescu: funny, i was just referencing RealTime Worlds the other day.

23:38:25 mircea_popescu: but in related news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/ffa48701b8274b68a5796c7492caacdb/tumblr_nusj401fVn1us4cv1o1_1280.jpg

23:38:25 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1SIheO9 )

23:38:38 pete_dushenski: too bald.

23:43:56 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

23:44:04 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 368.1, vol: 7073.89874393 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 368.791, vol: 10000.78401 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 368.17, vol: 13120.38289945 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 374.99, vol: 0.96760754 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 376.2954, vol: 27684.61060000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 368.14, vol: 218.32829837 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 373.01025, vol: 180.08829077 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

23:44:06 BingoBoingo: ;;more

23:44:06 gribble: 372.142877543

23:44:17 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all --currency rmb

23:44:23 gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 2474.01, vol: 27717.21530000 | Volume-weighted last average: 2474.01

23:44:35 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395520 << priceless.

23:44:35 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2016 18:51:25; shinohai: "This also means that Gavins assumptions/estimates regarding the usage for 20 MB blocks unfortunately were very wrong:" https://redd.it/440cq6

23:45:55 pete_dushenski: also a year and a half late, but what can you expect.

23:59:15 ben_vulpes: ( unrelated to anything: https://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/IRS-Statement-on-Experiencing-Systems-Outage )

23:59:15 assbot: IRS Statement on Experiencing Systems Outage ... ( http://bit.ly/1SIkjxv )