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Transcript for 03-11-2013, 633 lines:

00:02:34 benkay: .bait

00:02:36 ozbot: http://31.media.tumblr.com/b1f0feb59b74d7922c8641f9f1e9a791/tumblr_mfaiciB7G11rlp769o1_500.jpg

00:09:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 20 @ 0.00755 = 0.151 BTC [-]

00:10:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 70 @ 0.00755 = 0.5285 BTC [-] {2}

00:17:24 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 5 @ 0.06099999 = 0.305 BTC [-]

00:23:30 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 1 @ 0.15 BTC [-]

00:28:13 mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> you know what, i think you should talk to ozbot some more. <<

00:28:38 pankkake: he stalking me :(

00:31:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.895 BTC [+]

00:41:49 KRS1: oh man thats nice

00:43:50 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 1000 @ 0.00108501 = 1.085 BTC [-] {4}

00:45:12 mircea_popescu: ;;ticker

00:45:14 gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 213.00986, Best ask: 213.01000, Bid-ask spread: 0.00014, Last trade: 213.00986, 24 hour volume: 4358.73830996, 24 hour low: 211.02000, 24 hour high: 214.87996, 24 hour vwap: 213.03851

00:45:52 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1000 @ 0.00024444 = 0.2444 BTC [+] {2}

00:57:08 benkay: amusing that gox is still default for ticker

00:58:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18553 @ 0.00082617 = 15.3279 BTC [+] {2}

00:58:30 mod6: so this guy is the gatekeeper for all BIPs? Please send all BIP-related email to <gmaxwell@gmail.com>

00:58:46 mod6: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0001

00:59:47 mod6: which, actually, im suprised there isn't any comments yet. despite mp asking for commentary...

01:03:48 benkay: mod6: gotta re-read it three more times.

01:04:27 mod6: im on round two :]

01:05:03 mod6: read it for the first time about a week ago. now, re-reading after some thought.

01:06:55 mod6: im looking at https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0010 further to see what it holds

01:09:49 mod6: does anyone know if TxDP "multi-signature transactions" have been implemented in bitcoind or whatever from bitcoin.org? | That page was last updated: This page was last modified on 18 January 2013, at 14:57.

01:11:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.897 = 2.691 BTC [+]

01:12:18 mod6: gd i hate pdfs

01:21:27 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.897 = 1.794 BTC [+]

01:24:30 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 42 @ 0.00276056 = 0.1159 BTC [+] {3}

01:25:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 77 @ 0.008 = 0.616 BTC [+]

01:25:32 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.89 BTC [-]

01:28:34 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 208 @ 0.00813745 = 1.6926 BTC [+] {5}

01:28:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 80 @ 0.002779 = 0.2223 BTC [+]

01:29:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 126 @ 0.00818995 = 1.0319 BTC [+] {4}

01:30:37 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 105 @ 0.00819 = 0.86 BTC [+]

01:35:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4700 @ 0.00082847 = 3.8938 BTC [+]

01:56:01 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 19 @ 0.00818799 = 0.1556 BTC [+]

01:57:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 23 @ 0.008188 = 0.1883 BTC [+]

01:59:13 mod6: you know whats bizzare? not having to translate fraudsters.com from ro to en

01:59:29 mod6: :D

02:00:18 mircea_popescu: lol mod6

02:00:37 mircea_popescu: chtulhu now speaks your language

02:01:06 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 78 @ 0.00818 = 0.638 BTC [-]

02:02:03 mod6: haha :}

02:02:14 mircea_popescu: lol

02:26:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00082868 = 3.7705 BTC [+]

03:00:43 mod6: so as in the Lamport scheme: RNG produces 256 p & q respectively (512 hashes total), each 256 bits in size these combined are the privkey (p1->256+q1->256 )all of these together equal the privkey. and the pubkey is each of the 512 p's & q's hashed (256 bit) and concatenated together?

03:01:17 mod6: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_signature

03:02:34 asciilifeform: mod6: trying to implement provable-share secret-splitting?

03:03:24 mod6: haha, i'd like to implement it. but i gotta make sure i have my head wrapped around it first :)

03:03:55 asciilifeform: there's probably a thousand ways to do it.

03:04:06 asciilifeform: tricky bit is: to avoid leaking key.

03:04:06 mod6: yeah, i like how simplistic it seems.

03:04:23 asciilifeform: normally in a secret-splitter, the individual shares are indistinguishable from noise.

03:05:18 asciilifeform: if your application doesn't need the provability part, use ordinary (e.g. Shamir's) secret-splitter.

03:05:50 asciilifeform: it (provably) 'does what's printed on the box.'

03:06:04 asciilifeform: (proof is an exercise for alert reader.)

03:07:12 mod6: ahh, as far as leaking key part: Obviously should you reuse the same key to sign a different message you’ll be leaking key bits and eventually your key can be brokenii. << noted.

03:07:31 asciilifeform: mod6: that's true of any signature algo that uses a nonce

03:07:37 asciilifeform: what i meant was something rather more subtle

03:08:16 asciilifeform: if the shares are distinguishable from noise, they contain information which pertains to the key. (obvious.) hence said information must be a 'one way' ticket.

03:08:35 asciilifeform: (must conjecture that trapdoors exist. naturally)

03:09:15 asciilifeform: so k of m shares gives you key, but k-1 should give you bupkis.

03:10:22 asciilifeform: simplest way i can think of is rsa with >2 private primes (lamport, or see MP's writeup)

03:11:05 mod6: thanks for your input asciilifeform.

03:11:30 asciilifeform: exercise for the (very) alert reader: come up with a scheme where you can prove the actual number of distinct shareholders, given their pubkeys (allowed to assume they aren't all sockpuppets)

03:12:44 asciilifeform: that is, for all pubkeys, for each - can prove that it is a share. and that no others exist.

03:13:05 mod6: does this matter in the case where the dealer is a shithead?

03:14:17 asciilifeform: well, dealer presumably has the key being split

03:14:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15200 @ 0.00082339 = 12.5155 BTC [-] {2}

03:14:35 asciilifeform: for extra points: 'byzantine' scheme, sans dealer.

03:15:45 asciilifeform: that is, players agree on what constitutes a 'go' signal, and arrive at a set of split secrets that can be added up to said signal, verifiably - without a dealer.

03:15:58 mod6: oh ok

03:16:10 mod6: hmm.

03:16:52 asciilifeform: see 'millionaire protocol' for hint.

03:18:10 mod6: socialist millionaire problem || http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_millionaire

03:19:15 asciilifeform: right

03:19:34 mod6: damnit, you guys are smrt.

03:20:21 asciilifeform: mod6: not like i thought up any of this personally

03:22:42 mod6: still

03:25:54 mod6: to those following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir's_Secret_Sharing

03:27:55 mod6: anyway, i was very intetersted in the VPSS scheme even though i'm sort of deep into implementing cramer-shoup into libgcrypt.

03:28:07 mod6: thought i should dig into this article & related papers.

03:29:22 mod6: with any luck i'll get CS working within the libgcrypt framework then can mod gnupg to utilize it.

03:31:29 Ademan: Dang am I happy I bought asicminer last week, that paid off really quickly

03:32:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 101 @ 0.0081 = 0.8181 BTC [-] {2}

03:34:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.389898 BTC [+]

03:39:39 mod6: Each Lamport public key can only be used to sign one single message, which means many keys have to be published if many messages are to be signed. But a hash tree can be used on those public keys, publishing the top hash of the hash tree instead. This increases the size of the resulting signature, since parts of the hash tree have to be included in the signature, but it makes it possible to publish a single hash that then can be used to verify an

03:39:55 mod6: from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamport_signature

03:40:21 mod6: <3 crypto

03:41:00 mod6: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkle_signature_scheme

03:41:06 mod6: sound familiar? haha

03:41:39 asciilifeform: 'all who don't understand btc, are doomed to reinvent it'

03:43:25 mod6: :]

03:46:07 mod6: are you still into urbit?

03:46:42 asciilifeform: me? never really was, aside from having solved the 'entrance exam'

03:47:11 asciilifeform: tried to talk some sense into the author back in '10

03:47:26 asciilifeform: that building on c/unix is a mistake

03:47:51 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.8100096 = 8.1001 BTC [-] {3}

03:47:52 asciilifeform: now he and the merry band are fighting memory leaks, inexplicable crashes, and other joys.

03:48:08 mod6: one of these guys has a hardon for implemeting xrp with it directly instead of btc, can't shake him.

03:48:09 asciilifeform: all entirely unnecessary, and crap i want no part of.

03:48:35 mod6: yeah, it basically works, until they change something then you have to re-pull all source and rebuild, etc.

03:48:42 asciilifeform: the idea of implementing something on urbit would be more interesting if the thing actually worked.

03:48:43 mod6: pretty shakey still

03:48:49 mod6: ya

03:48:56 asciilifeform: there is such a thing as an 'impedance mismatch.'

03:50:07 asciilifeform: a 'from scratch' OS on top of the world's 2nd biggest steaming turd is a bad thing, regardless of how close it can be brought to an approximation of working, through brute sweat.

03:50:29 asciilifeform: this kind of thing has to be done from silicon up.

03:56:24 mod6: haha do you mean unix to be the 2nd biggest steaming turd?

03:56:31 asciilifeform: right.

03:56:44 mod6: what do you like better? windows?

03:56:50 asciilifeform: the 1st biggest?

03:57:05 asciilifeform: i'd prefer something that isn't a turd.

03:57:28 mod6: do you prefer any specific unix flavor?

03:57:55 asciilifeform: linux, as 'necessary evil'

03:58:06 asciilifeform: but never as a foundation for anything claiming to be a 'redesign of computing'

03:58:25 mod6: what about freebsd or openbsd?

03:58:41 asciilifeform: used to run freebsd at home, at one time

03:59:22 Ademan: the hell is urbit?

03:59:45 asciilifeform: Ademan: http://www.urbit.org/

04:00:01 mod6: i agree on philosophy though. why build something that is dependant on something undereath? how does that get one somewhere?

04:00:48 asciilifeform: mod6: see, i tell people, 'trinary logic, clockless Muller gates, direct execution of high-level language.'

04:00:59 asciilifeform: and they say 'you're a nut. we wanna get stuff done Right Now.'

04:01:58 asciilifeform: software sucks because hardware sucks. 'you can't pour a bullet from shit.'

04:02:16 mod6: haha

04:03:17 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55

04:03:19 ozbot: Loper OS » You have made your bedrock, now lie in it.

04:04:53 mod6: i mean, the idea of a 'successor of unix' is appleaing to me, eventhough I <3 *nix (in general compared to whatever, windows). it would be amazing to have something abstracted to the level where it can handle physical systems and be virtualized too and be next gen

04:04:53 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

04:05:02 mod6: lol asciilifeform

04:05:05 mod6: err assbot

04:05:50 asciilifeform: mod6: once you understand how much of what you presently know will be irrelevant (actually, harmful) after a serious rethinking of computing, you'll shit yourself.

04:06:53 asciilifeform: don't worry, not much risk of it actually happening in real life.

04:07:17 asciilifeform: just try telling people: 'yes, you'll have to throw away your RAM. and every line of code anyone's ever written.'

04:07:35 mod6: isn't it exciting?

04:07:55 asciilifeform: exciting, until you realize 1) it won't happen, and 2) it must

04:08:12 mod6: if it must, it will

04:08:36 asciilifeform: qwerty's still here.

04:09:39 asciilifeform: people will put up with astounding levels of dysfunction because 'they want to get things done.'

04:09:53 mod6: hahaha. yah but people are creatures of habit. but thats only because it's been allowed to persist. if people were only given type A new keyboard (dvorak) then that'd be used. kinda like only left hockey sticks in soivet union.

04:11:22 mod6: i never personally switched to dvorak because the friend that i have who did had the issue of trying to constantly switch everyone elses computer to dvorak if he wanted to use it.

04:11:28 mod6: muscle memory is a bitch

04:11:51 mod6: i guess this might not be relevant.

04:13:27 mod6: so what if we got to a point where we needed to throw everything existing away (now), how we would we proceed?

04:13:37 mod6: we'd simply only have a lesson in what not to do.

04:13:58 mod6: but we wouldn't have a map in what to do, only what not to do.

04:19:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2050 @ 0.00082163 = 1.6843 BTC [-]

04:21:13 mod6: asciilifeform: so we must go back to the form of the turing machine or DFA to re-invent the modern os? or do you think even that must be re-thought because of the possibility of quantum computers?

04:25:15 mod6: ( i like this thread, even if it leads no-where in particular. just curious, searching for ideas. )

04:26:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 103 @ 0.05263204 = 5.4211 BTC [+] {3}

04:28:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 10 @ 0.05260001 = 0.526 BTC [-]

04:35:17 mod6: ahh i see your comment and reply in that article: I believe that efficiency in computer design is a false god. Give me an “inefficient” but responsive and “Seven-Laws Compliant” computer any day of the week in place of the monstrous PC, that race car which regards steering wheel input as mere advice and so eagerly speeds off cliffs and into embankments. << hahaha

04:41:17 mod6: i agree, there has to be a better way.

04:48:04 mod6: anyway, i guess i'll get back to it. thanks for the convo.

05:06:43 KRS1: http://paste2.org/6tY0zHY9

05:06:47 KRS1: oops

05:07:13 KRS1: I meant http://cdn.meme.li/i/pekig.jpg

05:12:19 KRS1: lul

05:40:42 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.8795995 BTC [+]

05:46:48 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 14 @ 0.0079 = 0.1106 BTC [-]

06:14:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 912 @ 0.00082163 = 0.7493 BTC [-]

06:29:30 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.87963928 = 8.7964 BTC [+] {4}

07:14:14 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 111 @ 0.007909 = 0.8779 BTC [+] {3}

07:25:25 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 3 @ 0.15 = 0.45 BTC [-]

07:26:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.389898 BTC [+]

07:28:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.389899 BTC [+]

07:31:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 6 @ 0.0599 = 0.3594 BTC [+]

07:42:42 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 105 @ 0.00814571 = 0.8553 BTC [+] {2}

07:44:44 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.80173333 = 4.8104 BTC [-] {4}

07:52:52 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 16 @ 0.00815 = 0.1304 BTC [+]

08:35:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5750 @ 0.00081943 = 4.7117 BTC [-]

09:19:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 40 @ 0.00765473 = 0.3062 BTC [-] {4}

09:31:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6037 @ 0.00081794 = 4.9379 BTC [-]

10:48:45 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 304 @ 0.00109498 = 0.3329 BTC [-]

10:49:46 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 500 @ 0.00109498 = 0.5475 BTC [-]

10:51:57 jurov: ;;bc,stats

10:52:01 gribble: Current Blocks: 267686 | Current Difficulty: 3.9092878763808584E8 | Next Difficulty At Block: 268127 | Next Difficulty In: 441 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 5 hours, 43 minutes, and 33 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 511949177.601 | Estimated Percent Change: 30.95714

11:28:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4033 @ 0.00081943 = 3.3048 BTC [+]

11:31:27 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.8 = 2.4 BTC [-]

11:36:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16424 @ 0.00081844 = 13.4421 BTC [-] {4}

11:44:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 108 @ 0.00765194 = 0.8264 BTC [-] {2}

11:45:41 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 136 @ 0.00762073 = 1.0364 BTC [-] {3}

11:53:32 truffles: someone's internet is broken

12:45:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11383 @ 0.00082169 = 9.3533 BTC [+]

12:59:54 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [XBOND] [PAID] 0.69348300 BTC to 1`386`966 shares, 50 satoshi per share

13:03:58 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 179 @ 0.00273072 = 0.4888 BTC [-] {2}

13:11:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 1 @ 0.15 BTC [-]

13:12:07 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 30 @ 0.0078 = 0.234 BTC [+]

13:24:49 pankkake: http://www.rootwyrm.com/2013/11/the-badbios-analysis-is-wrong/

13:27:21 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.77000005 BTC [-]

13:40:34 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 15 @ 0.75933333 = 11.39 BTC [-] {4}

13:40:43 kakobrekla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-EIBY-OUwU

13:41:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 105 @ 0.0076502 = 0.8033 BTC [-]

13:41:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.75 BTC [-]

13:42:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 108 @ 0.00765009 = 0.8262 BTC [-] {4}

13:42:37 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.75 BTC [-]

13:44:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 96 @ 0.0076501 = 0.7344 BTC [+]

13:44:39 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.75 BTC [-]

14:05:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2000 @ 0.00082101 = 1.642 BTC [-] {2}

14:30:23 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 2000 @ 0.00109498 = 2.19 BTC [-]

14:35:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00081929 = 9.6676 BTC [-] {2}

14:35:52 Diablo-D3: Ukyo: hey, at some point can you delist DMC? the nov 1st deadline has passed

14:39:32 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 628 @ 0.00109 = 0.6845 BTC [-]

14:42:29 Ukyo: what does the us user deadline have to do with DMC ?

14:45:55 Diablo-D3: Ukyo: I set it to the same date.

15:36:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 37 @ 0.00762 = 0.2819 BTC [-] {2}

15:39:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 179 @ 0.0072901 = 1.3049 BTC [-] {5}

15:42:34 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.002779 = 0.2779 BTC [+]

15:46:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 100 @ 0.00109498 = 0.1095 BTC [+]

16:09:00 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.77 BTC [+]

16:12:14 nubbins`: hi

16:13:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6600 @ 0.00081632 = 5.3877 BTC [-]

16:16:02 nubbins`: ;;seen KRS1

16:16:03 gribble: KRS1 was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 11 hours, 3 minutes, and 42 seconds ago: <KRS1> lul

16:17:06 nubbins`: ;;later tell KRS1 professionally, i've coded in VB.NET, C#, java, objective-c, plus web-dev-related things like html/xml, js, and sql

16:17:08 gribble: The operation succeeded.

16:17:16 nubbins`: i actually have no idea how ;;later tell works, you know

16:17:45 nubbins`: anyway, that's in response to http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-11-2013#366712

16:18:01 nubbins`: and as a further response, i'd sooner put my eyes out than work in IT again

16:23:14 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.77 BTC [+]

16:28:19 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.77000005 = 2.31 BTC [+]

16:29:20 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 34 @ 0.00779982 = 0.2652 BTC [+] {2}

16:41:32 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.8 BTC [+]

16:43:27 mod6: ;;ticker

16:43:28 gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 217.10102, Best ask: 217.68451, Bid-ask spread: 0.58349, Last trade: 217.10102, 24 hour volume: 5123.54629150, 24 hour low: 211.25000, 24 hour high: 218.00000, 24 hour vwap: 215.26331

16:45:06 nubbins`: yes now

16:45:17 nubbins`: ;;ticker --market all

16:45:26 nubbins`: hm

16:45:30 gribble: MtGox BTCUSD last: 218.00001, vol: 5143.70604610 | Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 206.20, vol: 6099.18382697 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 203.112, vol: 6443.37397 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 215.0, vol: 2431.08005992 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 199.00, vol: 188.94107072 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 213.1181982, vol: 7764.44100000 | Volume-weighted last average: 210.280682296

16:47:16 nubbins`: not too shabby

16:48:25 nubbins`: AM1 made it all the way to 0.88 earlier, i guess people are really expecting a lot of suckers to buy those new box erupters or whatever they're called

16:51:45 Jere_Jones: I'm not even sure those are new. Sounds suspiciously like 3 blades in a box to me.

16:51:55 nubbins`: nod

16:52:05 nubbins`: priced suspiciously like 3 blades in a box, too

16:52:26 nubbins`: same bad idea with a different pretty bow on it

16:53:00 Jere_Jones: Don't get me wrong, I want ASICMiner to succeed. But I don't think the box is news.

16:53:11 nubbins`: i'm ambivalent about their success

16:53:23 nubbins`: do you want the banks who offered sub-prime mortgages to succeed?

16:53:37 nubbins`: take a moment to examine the parallels

16:54:21 Jere_Jones: In both cases, I believe my answer would be yes. Because my financial well-being is related to both.

16:55:18 nubbins`: heh

16:55:28 nubbins`: your honesty is refreshing

16:55:46 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.71795 = 14.359 BTC [-] {8}

16:56:08 Jere_Jones: I'm not *happy* about needing BoA to not fail. But I would be in a bad spot if it did.

16:56:11 nubbins`: i don't think that many of the people bleating in the AM threads on btctalk have the same level of clarity

16:56:57 nubbins`: in fact, if one were to suggest to them that they're attempting to enrich themselves to the direct detriment of others, they'd proably be very surprised

16:57:48 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 63 @ 0.00729051 = 0.4593 BTC [-]

16:58:54 Jere_Jones: Let's be clear, I don't want BoA to succeed *because* they are issuing mortgages to people who can't afford them. I want BoA to succeed *because* they have my money.

16:59:30 Jere_Jones: And, as far as I can tell, there aren't any real good options when it comes to banks.

16:59:55 nubbins`: there's always credit unions, i guess

17:00:18 nubbins`: although i think the banking system in america is very different from here in canada.

17:00:33 nubbins`: we've got what, five or six banks? and a bunch of credit unions

17:01:10 Jere_Jones: We've got a ton of banks and they all suck.

17:02:04 Jere_Jones: Of course, the vast majority of them are really just fronts for the big ones. Switching to one of them would be the equivalent of switching from Sprint to Ting.

17:02:11 Jere_Jones: Different name. Same assholes.

17:02:14 nubbins`: yeah

17:02:30 nubbins`: and the oppressor grows larger still

17:03:20 nubbins`: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1prngs/look_what_came_in_the_mail_today/

17:03:20 ozbot: Look what came in the mail today. : Bitcoin

17:03:23 nubbins`: first comment, hahaha

17:03:54 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 230 @ 0.00727665 = 1.6736 BTC [-] {4}

17:07:01 b0n1: :)

17:07:52 truffles: if only that bitcoin thing could be used as money

17:11:09 nubbins`: yes, if only

17:11:49 truffles: " a bitcoin condom machine.." that was a good one

17:14:50 nubbins`: there was a guy selling pregnancy tests on the forum

17:14:59 nubbins`: along with flush kits

17:15:41 truffles: not that many women on the internet

17:15:48 truffles: he is in for a bad time

17:16:07 truffles: oh wait nerds can has gf too nm

17:19:58 truffles: is nerd a negative word to nerds ?

17:20:25 truffles: i personally dont consider myself one ldo

17:22:48 pankkake: it's probably like nigga. nerds can say nerd

17:24:08 truffles: well some ppl like showing off their knowledge like on "king of the nerds" tv show

17:24:25 truffles: n word not on the same scale imo

17:35:25 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1500 @ 0.0002445 = 0.3668 BTC [+]

17:38:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1000 @ 0.0002445 = 0.2445 BTC [+]

17:56:39 truffles: well im not smart enough for the nerd title otherwise i see no probs with it, but ofc some ppl are sensitive about this stuff

18:00:50 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 246 @ 0.00109498 = 0.2694 BTC [+]

18:11:00 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 360 @ 0.00109498 = 0.3942 BTC [+]

18:17:50 truffles: must sleep

18:19:24 benkay: nubbs how do you obtain food credits outside of IT these days?

18:20:08 nubbins`: i run a print studio

18:20:44 kakobrekla: did you do the snsa shirt?

18:21:12 nubbins`: printed them, yes. didn't design the image

18:21:18 kakobrekla: cool

18:21:31 nubbins`: agreed :D

18:21:37 kakobrekla: i heard im getting some!

18:22:00 benkay: bought some cardanos, kakobrekla?

18:22:03 nubbins`: ah! you must be one of the slovenia/slovakia packages i'm guessing?

18:22:15 kakobrekla: benkay not yet

18:22:24 kakobrekla: nubbins` yeah that one, somalia it was i reckon

18:22:29 nubbins`: heh

18:22:37 benkay: i'm still mulling over how to integrate cardanos into my existing key mgmt scheme

18:23:03 nubbins`: i'm much more interested in flatstock than fabric these days

18:23:21 kakobrekla: like papery stuff?

18:23:24 nubbins`: yeah

18:23:29 nubbins`: paper, wood, w/e

18:24:11 kakobrekla: benkay yeah ill get one or two and then later figure out what to do with them

18:24:11 nubbins`: received a large order of paper on friday, can't wait to start testing it out

18:24:25 nubbins`: all 100% cotton. some of it is black :0

18:24:43 kakobrekla: cotton paper?

18:24:51 nubbins`: yep. acid-free, archival quality

18:24:57 nubbins`: none of this dead-tree bullshit ;)

18:25:19 kakobrekla: ok but you are not a treehugger or ?

18:25:30 nubbins`: no more so than the average sensible human

18:25:42 nubbins`: tree paper just isn't as nice

18:25:57 kakobrekla: well cotton is a bitch too

18:26:16 nubbins`: maybe so, but it makes fine paper

18:29:58 mod6: ;;ticker

18:30:00 gribble: MtGox BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 220.00000, Best ask: 220.09774, Bid-ask spread: 0.09774, Last trade: 220.00000, 24 hour volume: 7213.48975184, 24 hour low: 211.70001, 24 hour high: 220.09774, 24 hour vwap: 216.59082

18:37:26 kakobrekla: here, have a rainbow http://jezus.si:81/render?target=bitcoin.*.transactions&height=500&width=1100&lineMode=connected

18:37:50 kakobrekla: stamp is laging, not only teh cans and strings but teh price too

18:48:48 mod6: nice chart. someone has a pretty good bid in @ 195 on bitstamp.

18:52:53 mod6: well, guess its $193.03:

18:53:06 mod6: $193.03 3619.12508000 $698,599.71

18:55:19 nubbins`: oh my

18:57:47 nubbins`: never gonna get filled, that's just there to give people confidence that the ass isn't gonna fall out of it

19:03:45 Pantoo: I see ken was exaggerating about the SEC and mislead everyone who has been building off of his statement... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297503.msg3430985#msg3430985

19:04:07 pankkake: ken mislead people? how surprising

19:04:17 Pantoo: hahaha

19:04:54 pankkake: http://www.angelfoodcomic.com/wp-content/uploads/I-have-no-idea-what-I-am-doing.jpg ActimeMining in a nutshell

19:05:07 Pantoo: i was looking to see if he had said anything else about the SEC and noticed he made that update earlier. wonder how long till others notice

19:20:12 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg3467862#msg3467862

19:20:14 ozbot: ASICMINER: Entering the Future of ASIC Mining by Inventing It

19:20:15 nubbins`: lel

19:26:14 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.78899999 = 1.578 BTC [+]

19:27:15 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 8 @ 0.059 = 0.472 BTC [-]

19:30:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 3500 @ 0.00109498 = 3.8324 BTC [+] {2}

19:38:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9900 @ 0.00081266 = 8.0453 BTC [-]

20:15:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 5 @ 0.059 = 0.295 BTC [-]

20:23:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9450 @ 0.00081336 = 7.6863 BTC [+]

20:45:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9074 @ 0.0008163 = 7.4071 BTC [+]

20:49:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B] [XBOND] 1000 @ 0.00109498 = 1.095 BTC [+]

21:05:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00081258 = 7.3132 BTC [-] {2}

21:17:03 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 130 @ 0.00728141 = 0.9466 BTC [-] {3}

21:17:52 jurov: nubbins`: did you declare sufficiently high value for our watchful customs to intercept it and demand ransom?

21:18:04 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 63 @ 0.0072744 = 0.4583 BTC [-]

21:18:51 nubbins`: the postal clerk filled out all the customs forms for me. pretty sure they're all marked as "t-shirt", gift, no cash value

21:20:01 jurov: good. cuz americans like, in their blessed innocece, to declare $$$$ value and then it's headache

21:20:41 jurov: *innocence

21:21:00 nubbins`: i sold some poor EU guy a rare casascius coin a while back. he insisted on insuring it for its full value, and was very sad when he had to pay hundreds of dollars before they released his package

21:21:38 mircea_popescu: innocaecity

21:21:54 nubbins`: innococracy

21:22:03 pankkake: that's why I don't like to order stuff outside of the EU :/

21:22:14 mircea_popescu: btw i answered your comments noobins :D

21:22:25 pankkake: also stuff has a tendency to disappear at the border

21:32:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 31 @ 0.00759999 = 0.2356 BTC [+]

21:34:00 nubbins`: mircea_popescu: just finished; we're *all* misrepresenting the situation. the artists, the art dealers, the museum-going public, and every single person who commented on that post, yourself included. this is why "what is art" is an interesting topic for discussion; everyone colors it with their own experience.

21:34:37 mircea_popescu: no, you're all doing it except me.

21:34:55 mircea_popescu: you know this because i can enact my point in your system, but you can't enact your point in mine.

21:35:20 mircea_popescu: in all situations where a set of representations appears equivalent but one excludes all others, that's also the correct one, and the others are degenerate.

21:36:47 nubbins`: i'm still trying to figure out if i should determine the nature of your point or the nature of your system first!

21:38:23 mircea_popescu: lol good point.

21:40:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.775 BTC [-]

21:41:04 nubbins`: anyway, certainly one of the more entertaining reads (article + comments) so far

21:42:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 5 @ 0.77999998 = 3.9 BTC [+] {2}

21:42:43 mircea_popescu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=753nCv6tl2s

21:42:44 ozbot: By special request, the Imperial March on Kazoo - YouTube

21:43:23 nubbins`: *blink*

21:43:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 7 @ 0.7931355 = 5.5519 BTC [+] {4}

21:44:48 nubbins`: that's quite the outfit

21:46:05 mircea_popescu: it's kinda what i think when i hear star wars.

21:46:07 mircea_popescu: that guy.

21:47:39 nubbins`: a reasonable enough representation

21:53:39 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5899 @ 0.00021142 = 1.2472 BTC [-] {9}

22:07:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 826 @ 0.00081437 = 0.6727 BTC [+]

22:10:56 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 17 @ 0.059 = 1.003 BTC [+]

22:12:42 jurov: the correct one, and the others are degenerate *rolls eyes*

22:13:58 mircea_popescu: jurov im super cereal.

22:14:40 nubbins`: i'm curious to know what your description of my system would be

22:16:49 jurov: "lurk moar"

22:17:24 mircea_popescu: he was asking you neh ?

22:17:41 nubbins`: nope, that was directed towards you

22:18:19 nubbins`: you can't claim to know a man's mind and not expect him to ask you to elaborate

22:18:42 mircea_popescu: ah. well i wouldn't know "your" system. what you've written so far is coherent with naive nominalism, ie the ideology of all youths. occam requires it be described as such.

22:20:33 mircea_popescu: (naive nominalism is the view that convention enacts existence, and thus forumers are "ceo"s and their harebrained schemes "companies")

22:21:39 mircea_popescu: that aside, there aren't really enough points given explicitly to make much of a call.

22:22:07 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 60 @ 0.00726548 = 0.4359 BTC [-] {3}

22:22:57 nubbins`: and thus, random bozos are "artists"?

22:23:07 mircea_popescu: if you call them that.

22:23:39 nubbins`: if the random bozo creates something that i like, what else would i call him?

22:24:03 mircea_popescu: but there's a difference between calling a dude a nigger for convenience, as the shortest word available,

22:24:10 mircea_popescu: and calling a dude a nigger for racism.

22:27:26 nubbins`: i dunno, man. maybe i'm applying too much of my interpretation of your "system" into your words, but it seems like you're flat-out stating that it's not art unless someone in a position of power or influence over the artist decrees it to be so

22:27:38 mircea_popescu: no, i am flat out stating that.

22:27:41 nubbins`: and i find such a stance so bizarre that i'm not even sure where to begin picking it apart

22:28:45 mircea_popescu: i know.

22:29:07 nubbins`: about five years ago, i moved into an apartment and found a large piece of wall panelling with a picture painted on the back side of it. it's currently gracing the wall of my living room.

22:29:32 nubbins`: no name, no identifying marks whatsoever, no way for me to ever find out who made it or to contact them in any way

22:30:21 nubbins`: to propose that i hold any position relative to its creator, above or below, is simply nonsense

22:30:35 nubbins`: and yet, there it sits on my wall

22:30:47 nubbins`: unequivocally and inarguably a work of art

22:31:33 mircea_popescu: "unequivocally and inarguably a work of art" only in the republic of one constructed by your own living room, of which you are president.

22:31:43 nubbins`: YES

22:31:47 nubbins`: my fucking point exactly

22:31:56 mircea_popescu: why do you expect solipsism to be considered by others ?

22:32:07 mircea_popescu: your problem, not apt to be brought to the forum.

22:33:05 mircea_popescu: for that matter, you may perhaps in time come to own a miniature of the eiffel tower, which you may emplace on your commode,

22:33:10 mircea_popescu: or in your rectum.

22:33:25 mircea_popescu: it'd be "the eiffel tower of my commode", but only inasmuch as you are concerned.

22:33:35 nubbins`: sure

22:33:52 mircea_popescu: it's not germane to call it "the eiffel tower" in conversation.

22:34:08 nubbins`: well, you're the one bringing definite articles into play

22:34:23 nubbins`: it's not THE art on my walls, it's A piece of art

22:34:27 mircea_popescu: yes, because i am the one discussing art,

22:34:37 mircea_popescu: not whatever irreelvant stuff you're personally dreaming up all for yourself.

22:34:54 mircea_popescu: the eiffel tower on yoru commode is not a piece of eiffel towers.

22:35:00 nubbins`: everything is irrelevant but the opinion of the observer

22:35:02 mircea_popescu: it has literally nothing to do with the eiffel tower.

22:35:04 mircea_popescu: no.

22:35:07 nubbins`: yes.

22:35:09 nubbins`: universally, no

22:35:12 mircea_popescu: well so there you have it.

22:35:18 nubbins`: but as a matter of determining whether it's art, yes

22:35:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3216 @ 0.00081476 = 2.6203 BTC [+]

22:35:45 mircea_popescu: there are qualifications needed to be an observer. you don't become an observer of the battle of thermopylae just by stating yourself as an observer

22:35:56 nubbins`: oh, you most certainly do

22:36:10 nubbins`: an observer needs no qualifications beyond the ability to observe

22:36:23 nubbins`: the validity of their observations can certainly be debated

22:36:34 mircea_popescu: this may be the best stating of the naive nominalism discussed above.

22:36:36 nubbins`: just as the validity of what my opinion of art is can be debated

22:36:41 mircea_popescu: you presume youy have the faculty to observe.

22:36:51 mircea_popescu: this presumption is wholly unsubstantiated.

22:37:28 nubbins`: art doesn't exist in a vacuum

22:37:33 dexX7: observer? http://fraudsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mircea-popescu-gpl-3.jpg

22:37:37 nubbins`: you touched on this when you said it was inert

22:38:16 nubbins`: but that's just another way of questioning whether an event happens if there is no observer

22:38:29 nubbins`: trees falling, noises being made, etc

22:38:54 nubbins`: and that's fair in the sense that art is some sort of schrodinger's cat type thing

22:39:03 nubbins`: where it's neither art nor not-art until someone looks at it

22:39:17 mircea_popescu: nah, see, the equivocation at work here is that the requirements for being an observer in the foresrt with a falling tree are very low

22:39:17 nubbins`: but the difference here is that all can agree on whether or not a cat is dead

22:39:21 nubbins`: because that's quantifiable

22:39:25 mircea_popescu: one can't turn arround and expect all situations have equally low bars

22:39:28 nubbins`: none can agree on whether or not X is art

22:39:38 nubbins`: because it's simply not quantifiable

22:39:47 mircea_popescu: dexX7 jus' me an' my hat.

22:40:05 nubbins`: how many arts is Starry Night? how many arts is Fountain?

22:40:13 dexX7: https://www.google.com/search?q=fringe+observer but i'm sure you know ;)

22:40:40 mircea_popescu: dexX7 whassat ?

22:41:41 mircea_popescu: nubbins` i dunno what cats have to do with this. is it an internet thing ?

22:41:53 dexX7: fringe is a us tv series

22:42:20 nubbins`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat

22:42:42 nubbins`: due to quantum physics gibberish, the cat is neither dead nor alive until observed

22:43:12 nubbins`: the natural extrapolation of your argument is that you can walk up to a woman weeping at the beauty of a painting, or of a spoken word, and politely inform her that what she has observed is, in fact, not art

22:43:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 6 @ 0.15 = 0.9 BTC [-]

22:43:57 nubbins`: but the very fact that she weeps implies that she is having a strong emotional response to it

22:44:18 nubbins`: which in turn implies that she

22:44:22 nubbins`: oh fuck i smell smoke hold on

22:47:25 mircea_popescu: nubbins` you could slap her, or kidnap her to the same strong emotional response

22:47:34 mircea_popescu: "what literature pays best ?" "ransom notes"

22:48:29 mircea_popescu: more's the point : your example is counterfactual. i would never talk to some anodyne serf woman,

22:48:36 nubbins`: and there are those who would argue that such a kidnapping is "performance art"

22:48:56 mircea_popescu: you might as well propose the cancer walk in the front door one day and begin jacking off.

22:49:04 nubbins`: i disagree, but my disagreement merely illustrates my point

22:49:08 mircea_popescu: "jacking off" ?! it has no penis.

22:50:11 nubbins`: i'm merely offering the simplest explanation for the fact that there are so many things which some people call art and other people don't

22:50:31 mircea_popescu: incidentally, the miscasting as art as "that which yields emotional response" is roughly the reason trolling has become such a big deal culturally.

22:50:53 mircea_popescu: nubbins` yes, but your explanation requires people be equal and interchangeable, which is beyond naive.

22:51:06 mircea_popescu: you might as well offer an explanation of art for spherical chickens that live in vacuums.

22:51:35 nubbins`: your explanation requires that some higher power declares X to be art and Y to be not-art

22:51:40 nubbins`: which is pretty lelly

22:52:47 nubbins`: suppose person X says "this sculpture i've commissioned is art" and person Y says "nay, you are my subject, and i declare it to be not-art"

22:53:10 nubbins`: well, obviously person Z (X and Y's superior) should be the REAL person to ask, right?

22:53:19 nubbins`: and so on and so on

22:53:44 nubbins`: and you arrive at the conclusion that art is declared by edict from god

22:54:04 nubbins`: or, y'know, occam's razor. it's art if i think it's art.

22:54:26 nubbins`: the obvious implication is that the words "to me" are inserted between "art" and "if"

22:55:49 mircea_popescu: except no one cares about any "to me" sentence. they're voiceless.

22:55:51 nubbins`: because there's no other way to quantify it, and if you can't quantify things, you certainly can't classify them

22:56:01 nubbins`: sure, but what does that change?

22:56:16 mircea_popescu: looky, this trick where you go "mpex is too hard, i don;'t understand it ; therefore we must all glbse because there's no other way to do it" isn't logically sound.

22:56:28 mircea_popescu: it is the avatar of youth, but so are many other illogical topoi

22:56:46 nubbins`: someone says a piss pot "is art to me". i don't care, because whether it's art to them has no bearing on whether it's art to me

22:56:59 mircea_popescu: the "to me" approach is unsound. this disqualifies it, perpetually and definitively.

22:57:11 mircea_popescu: the remainder is the "to whom ?" approach, which reduces to social hierarchy.

22:57:13 mircea_popescu: no problem here.

22:57:13 nubbins`: art acts on people. without "to me", it does not exist

22:57:36 mircea_popescu: you presume all action is with the voluntary subjection fo the subject

22:57:45 mircea_popescu: this may be true, but the subjection needn't be conscious.

22:58:12 nubbins`: agreed

22:58:20 mircea_popescu: you don't discuss surgery in terms of the subjective impressions of patients. a similar discussion of any other craft is similarly out of place.

22:58:43 mircea_popescu: obviously the surgeons are surgeons by decree rather than because "people" feel surgeonized by them

22:58:45 nubbins`: surgery definitely falls into the realm of the quantifiable.

22:58:55 mircea_popescu: only in the minds of people who have no idea what it is.

22:59:01 mircea_popescu: in point of fact it's about as vague as art.

22:59:08 mircea_popescu: which is why malpraxis is such a mess.

22:59:31 nubbins`: "you're cured if i say you're cured"

22:59:36 mircea_popescu: exactly.

22:59:40 nubbins`: "it's art if i tell you it's art"

22:59:42 mircea_popescu: if and only if, when and only when.

23:00:00 nubbins`: "i'm cured if my condition is gone"

23:00:02 mircea_popescu: does the oncology patient go "all is well doc, i feel cured" ?

23:00:06 nubbins`: "it's art if i say it's art"

23:00:08 mircea_popescu: no, they go o please divine my fortunes, good master.

23:00:31 nubbins`: "cured" has nothing to do with feeling

23:00:42 mircea_popescu: it's quite a case of "you're cured if and when i say you're cured".

23:00:43 nubbins`: art has much to do with it

23:00:57 mircea_popescu: with feeling, perhaps. with conscious feeling rarely.

23:01:14 nubbins`: hmm

23:01:47 mircea_popescu: when i say "it's art because X feels Y" i may be right. when you say "it's art because I feel Y" you're certain to be wrong.

23:02:47 nubbins`: mp says it's art because nubbins wept, vs nubbins says it's art because nubbins wept

23:02:56 mircea_popescu: to be formal,

23:03:09 nubbins`: same conclusion, different route

23:03:11 mircea_popescu: mp said it's art, and it makes nubbins weep, vs nubbins thinks it;'s art because that's why he thinks he wept

23:03:36 nubbins`: ...

23:03:49 mircea_popescu: these are not the same. and for that matter the latter's logically unsound.

23:04:10 mircea_popescu: (in nubbins' instance, not in the general form)

23:04:27 nubbins`: you changed your example a bit there

23:04:34 mircea_popescu: how ?

23:04:48 nubbins`: you went from "because x feels y" to "and x feels y"

23:05:11 nubbins`: mp said it's art because it makes nubbins weep, or mp said it's art and it makes nubbins weep?

23:05:26 mircea_popescu: there is no because in the correct statement. in fact, we can judge how good a nubbins you are by how adequately you weep when art is presented

23:05:35 mircea_popescu: NOT the other way around, judge art by how it "makes" you weep or not.

23:06:03 nubbins`: well, obviously it's not the art but nubbins himself that is the cause of the weeping

23:06:08 mircea_popescu: nope.

23:06:08 nubbins`: but let's not get tangled up

23:06:31 mircea_popescu: this naive "man at center of everything" goes well with the naive nominalism, but it's quite as nutty.

23:07:01 nubbins`: let's examine "mp said it's art"

23:07:13 mircea_popescu: ok.

23:07:15 nubbins`: presumably mp has criteria?

23:07:22 mircea_popescu: none of your business as they may be,.

23:07:29 mircea_popescu: presumably he does.

23:07:34 nubbins`: sure. nevertheless, we can presume that he does

23:07:39 mircea_popescu: yea.

23:07:51 nubbins`: we can also presume that nubbins also has criteria

23:07:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24950 @ 0.00081405 = 20.3105 BTC [-] {2}

23:07:56 mircea_popescu: why ?

23:08:07 nubbins`: as a facile counterpoint, why not?

23:08:15 mircea_popescu: because it's not only facile, but wrong.

23:08:20 nubbins`: surely there must be something that makes mp a good judge and nubbins a poor one?

23:08:23 mircea_popescu: mp is one of the lords. he makes art be. of course we can presume anything.

23:08:29 nubbins`: ahahaha

23:08:32 mircea_popescu: nubbins is no such lord. we're going to have to explain why we presume.

23:08:39 nubbins`: it's art by holy edict!

23:08:48 mircea_popescu: that's the point of the article.

23:09:21 nubbins`: you're a complicated man

23:09:41 mircea_popescu: <nubbins`> surely there must be something that makes mp a good judge and nubbins a poor one? << this implies that perhaps nubbins could move upwards in society, and contains implicit an equivalency of substance between the two. this isn't an accepted point between us.

23:09:56 mircea_popescu: so if it's true, you'll have to prove it.

23:10:06 nubbins`: ^ this implies that there's a ladder we're both on and you're above me on it

23:10:13 nubbins`: so if it's true, you'll have to prove it.

23:10:15 mircea_popescu: well not you and me personally

23:10:18 mircea_popescu: but the icons we're discussing

23:10:19 nubbins`: any two people

23:10:21 nubbins`: sure

23:10:28 mircea_popescu: i have to prove naught. i just make the art be art.

23:12:16 nubbins`: so you pop into someone's house, point to a painting, and say "actually that's not art at all", and thus it was never art

23:12:41 mircea_popescu: how would mp and nubbins socially interract ?

23:12:50 nubbins`: i'm not sure we would

23:12:57 mircea_popescu: i pop into someone's house by the intermediate agency of his wife which is now my slave

23:13:04 mircea_popescu: and she throws out all their old shit cause now she knows better.

23:13:23 mircea_popescu: "you know what ? my old junk wasn't art at all"

23:13:37 nubbins`: that could happen without any outside influence

23:13:42 nubbins`: and indeed it does, all the fucking time

23:14:01 nubbins`: in fact, it even happens in the other direction!

23:14:09 nubbins`: "hey, y'know, this album is actually pretty good"

23:14:36 nubbins`: "this drawing has really grown on me"

23:14:39 mircea_popescu: but this has little to do. you were discussing a particular application of the theory, with what i took as a view to reduce it to absurd.

23:14:50 nubbins`: everything is absurd.

23:14:52 mircea_popescu: i've shown the approach not to really work, we can move on

23:15:33 nubbins`: of course, absurdity is a spectrum

23:15:38 mircea_popescu: lol.

23:15:52 nubbins`: the entire sphere of art rests squarely on the more

23:15:57 mircea_popescu: the curse of this particular equalitarian-nominalism ogre is that it can't really make stateemnts.

23:16:02 nubbins`: "absurd" end of that spectrum

23:16:24 nubbins`: well, obviously, if you take my view, all art is a bit of a beat-off

23:16:48 nubbins`: an absurd, senseless beat-off

23:18:10 nubbins`: if one chooses to make himself an authority in such an arena, well, so be it

23:18:20 pankkake: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=322809.msg3474594#msg3474594 john k's not dead

23:18:22 ozbot: Where's John K?

23:18:31 nubbins`: but he deceives himself if he thinks he can avoid becoming part of the beat-off

23:19:00 nubbins`: after all, what's a bigger beat-off than "i'm the guy who sez what's art and what's not"?

23:19:16 nubbins`: it's enough to make your sides ache.

23:20:43 mircea_popescu: you know that seinfeld episode when george is pitching to the network nubbins ?

23:21:01 nubbins`: vague recollection, specifics are lost in the haze

23:21:02 mircea_popescu: "so what's this idea ?" "it's nothing" "Then why am I watching it ?" "because it's on tv" "not yet."

23:21:12 mircea_popescu: that's it right there. i'm the guy who sez.

23:21:57 nubbins`: not the best analogy

23:22:09 nubbins`: tv has gatekeepers

23:22:34 nubbins`: you wanna air a tv show, you need the permission of your master

23:22:49 nubbins`: you wanna paint something or write a song, you're limited only by your own level of ambition

23:22:50 mircea_popescu: ah, and "art" is free,

23:22:56 mircea_popescu: you just put it on etsy ?

23:23:09 nubbins`: etsy has listing fees ;)

23:23:19 mircea_popescu: but this sort of drawer novel, as it was known, doesn't exist in the sense of art.

23:23:27 mircea_popescu: it exists in the sense of masturbation, or w/e the author does in his privacy.

23:23:47 nubbins`: so it's art if it reaches an audience of a certain size

23:24:03 mircea_popescu: think of an old painting being discovered in a stahs. what is the question first and foremost asked ? is it something as to the paionting itself or is it as to the pedigree of the owner ?

23:24:12 mircea_popescu: nobody goes "i found a 500 year old kinda cool painting"

23:24:24 mircea_popescu: it only matters once it becomes "an old da vinci has been discovered"

23:24:49 mircea_popescu: audience has nothing to do with it. this is wholly a medieval-inspired problem of probatory.

23:24:50 nubbins`: nah

23:25:08 nubbins`: it matters to more people if it's an old davinci or what have you

23:25:12 mircea_popescu: if the shipwreck survivor found is a noble or a peasant, not if he owns a lot of farms and what havd you

23:25:30 nubbins`: but that doesn't preclude it mattering to anyone

23:25:52 mircea_popescu: if you insist to hold the utopian view.

23:25:58 nubbins`: oh, but i do!

23:26:17 nubbins`: we're all floating in a void

23:27:01 mircea_popescu: well the advantage of holding nonsense views (which utopianisms are by definiton) is that anything can be derived from them.

23:27:08 mircea_popescu: any conclusion is available to the inconsistent set of premises.

23:27:16 nubbins`: the magazines at the grocery store tell me that kim kardashian is very worthy of my attention, but that's simply false

23:27:29 nubbins`: well, yes.

23:27:56 nubbins`: what's more nonsense than debating whether or not something is art?

23:28:10 mircea_popescu: there can be no such debate.

23:28:15 nubbins`: or whether or not X or Y is a criteria for defining it?

23:28:22 mircea_popescu: art is art. you disagree, you may be punished by your lord. end of story.

23:28:24 nubbins`: or whether or not art exists?

23:28:51 nubbins`: or whether person X or person Y is an authority on the subject?

23:29:00 nubbins`: unadulterated nonsense, all of it

23:29:12 mircea_popescu: so if you don't really wish to discuss art, why are you ?

23:29:14 nubbins`: regardless of a self-appointed lord's opinion

23:29:29 nubbins`: if i didn't wish to discuss it, i wouldn't. this is great.

23:29:52 nubbins`: you assume that people don't wish to discuss nonsense

23:30:12 nubbins`: the length of this exchange implies otherwise

23:30:21 mircea_popescu: lol no, you can't "Discuss" nonsense. to discuss a topic you have to renounce nonsense.

23:30:33 mircea_popescu: if you wish to wallow in nonsense you're stuck doing it by yourself

23:30:50 mircea_popescu: whether you get some others to do the same in your general proximity is irrelevant, everyone's still doing it by himself.

23:30:55 mircea_popescu: bukkake like

23:30:58 nubbins`: nonsense. you've been talking nonsense with me for like two hours.

23:31:30 mircea_popescu: wait till i publish it :)

23:31:38 nubbins`: wait til i draw it ;)

23:31:43 mircea_popescu: cool, go for it!

23:31:47 mircea_popescu: ima add it to the article

23:32:08 nubbins`: great, gimme an hour

23:32:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [VTX] 1 @ 0.38989799 BTC [-]

23:35:50 mircea_popescu: here you go.

23:42:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIM] 9 @ 0.059 = 0.531 BTC [-]

23:42:27 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 16 @ 0.007265 = 0.1162 BTC [-]

23:45:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 24 @ 0.00726401 = 0.1743 BTC [-]

23:50:44 pankkake: is this art? http://i.imgur.com/lBx4YGG.png

23:52:58 mircea_popescu: gotta ask putin.

23:54:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 44 @ 0.00725763 = 0.3193 BTC [-] {2}