Transcript for 06-03-2015, 1214 lines:
00:00:30 mircea_popescu: (aeolipile)
00:01:14 pete_dushenski: "The aeolipile was a hollow sphere mounted so that it could turn on a pair of hollow tubes that provided steam to the sphere from a cauldron. The steam escaped from the sphere from one or more bent tubes projecting from its equator, causing the sphere to revolve. The aeolipile is the first known device to transform steam into rotary motion."
00:01:29 pete_dushenski: well waddya know!
00:01:32 cazalla: got another retweet for the bits for tits trilema post.. this time by a bitcoin magazine for women.. ah ha, they don't even read, just retweet
00:02:00 mircea_popescu: lol
00:02:15 cazalla: of course, i'm working on the assumption these are lefties who would be grossly offended at such an idea but you never know..
00:02:23 scoopbot: New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/mpif-fmpif-february-2015-statement/
00:02:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23150 @ 0.00040568 = 9.3915 BTC [+] {4}
00:02:32 mircea_popescu: ftr, actual lefties aren't offended at nudity.
00:02:50 adlai: what's this about graphing curves?
00:03:07 mircea_popescu: the weirdo abominable us "lefties", which are really a sort of recycled aunt pollies, yes.
00:03:08 pete_dushenski: adlai greek scytales
00:03:10 *: adlai has been visualizing his way along https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jTFxQaUJA
00:03:11 assbot: ECCHacks - A gentle introduction to elliptic-curve cryptography [31c3] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1aOq8Yt )
00:03:16 mircea_popescu: but otherwise, a lefty commune more likely to be nude than otherwise.
00:03:29 adlai: sure, i know what scytales are. but 'a variable diameter stick is really a fascinating way of graphing cryptographic curves.' = ?
00:03:55 pete_dushenski: adlai do i misunderstand how scytales work ?
00:03:59 cazalla: mircea_popescu, aren't the us lefties the type of lefties behind bitcoin wimminz day anyway
00:04:18 mircea_popescu: gotta ask 'em, cazalla. whadda i know >D
00:05:44 cazalla: the other leftie type being.. amir/hippy types living in a hovel engaging in drug fuelled orgies?
00:05:51 adlai: pete_dushenski: could be. scytales just rearrange the 'packets' of a message, whereas modern crypto jumbles the data within
00:06:17 pete_dushenski: " the scytale, consisted of a tapered baton around which was spirally wrapped a piece of parchment inscribed with the message. When unwrapped the parchment bore an incomprehensible set of letters, but when wrapped around another baton of identical proportions, the original text reappeared. "
00:07:02 adlai: it just changes the order of the letters
00:07:16 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 16:51:02; ben_vulpes: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/03/google-seems-to-have-broken-email-forwarding/ << moar on google breaking the internet
00:07:18 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DQPr2V )
00:07:26 pete_dushenski: adlai being ignorant of the difference between rearranging packets and jumbling, can you expand ?
00:07:35 mircea_popescu: cazalla most of israel was built by lefties.
00:08:02 mircea_popescu: adlai "packets" "data within", what is this, we make up words day ?
00:09:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00040817 = 4.694 BTC [+]
00:11:04 pete_dushenski: also, who needs scoopbot when I'm here anyways : http://www.contravex.com/2015/03/05/the-fashionability-of-being-uncompetitive-because-reasons/
00:11:06 assbot: The fashionability of being uncompetitive. Because Reasons. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1aOrOB6 )
00:11:39 adlai: pete_dushenski: let's say scytale diameter is em/2π, ie the message has six 'rows', and each sextet of letters on the wrapped paper corresponds to a column
00:12:24 adlai: the scytale cipher is equivalent to drawing a long table with six rows (adding columns as needed), and writing out the message to fill the column; then all the letters are jumbled. but the letters remain unchanged
00:12:45 adlai: it leaks information about the message content, even if you don't get the full thing
00:13:05 mircea_popescu: adlai you are making assumptions about the length of the parchment.
00:13:06 jurov: so what. should have used klein bottles or such.
00:13:23 adlai: what assumptions?
00:13:35 mircea_popescu: it could be 2700 stadies for all you know
00:13:59 mircea_popescu: ;;calc .185 * 2700
00:14:00 gribble: 499.5
00:14:07 mircea_popescu: 500km. wow check me out, i can estimate!
00:14:21 pete_dushenski: lol
00:15:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10222 @ 0.00040817 = 4.1723 BTC [+]
00:15:41 pete_dushenski: wait, where's 0.185 from ?
00:15:52 asciilifeform: adlai: the information isn't just hard to attain, it doesn't exist << the bot is not for use! it's a theoretical construction, like carnot cycle
00:16:18 mircea_popescu: there's ~185 meters in a stadion
00:16:49 mircea_popescu: (the thing you folks call stadium in english an' stadion in french :) )
00:17:17 pete_dushenski: o estadio !
00:17:18 asciilifeform: scytales... ecdsa << if this analogy is accurate, woe be unto ecdsa users. you can crack scyrale with a physical contrivance analogous to an engorging cock
00:17:41 pete_dushenski: depends on one's.... capacity
00:17:52 pete_dushenski: not everyone packs a salami for lunch
00:17:53 jurov: if the "perfect bot" ends up with less then complete monopoly, then it's non-prefect by definition
00:18:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only if it's fixed taper.
00:18:44 jurov: unless we can endlessly argue that monopoly is not optiomal outcome for its owner
00:19:25 jurov: the boundary is now carnot cycle but complete pwnage
00:19:31 jurov: *not carnot cycle
00:19:33 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if can vary taper between min and max of what opponent could have used - then yes
00:19:51 asciilifeform: jurov: nobody's getting a monopoly off epsilon btc
00:20:01 asciilifeform: jurov: which is why the gedankenexperiment was specifically about epsilon
00:20:23 jurov: in 2009 there was only epsilon
00:20:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what i mean is, that you need the volume to be defined by the same angle all around the center. ie, you need a baton that can be turned. whereas in practice they'd use unturned batons.
00:20:26 jurov: notyhing else
00:20:47 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu asciilifeform could also be variable taper
00:20:57 mircea_popescu: it's what i said o.O
00:21:00 asciilifeform: i doubt that they varied the taper
00:21:09 mircea_popescu: ever seen the item itself ?
00:21:09 asciilifeform: take a table leg, a length of photo film, and experiment
00:21:17 mircea_popescu: no, table length is turned.
00:21:29 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu i'm slow..
00:21:32 asciilifeform: only ever saw modern reproductions of scytale
00:21:37 asciilifeform: not having been to ancient sparta in person
00:22:05 mircea_popescu: all the ones i've seen were asymmetrical.
00:22:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DQRhB3 )
00:22:21 asciilifeform: i see it
00:22:43 mircea_popescu: crpto, 3k years ago as today : if naively implemented, trivial. if not... well.... ahem.
00:23:31 asciilifeform: still crackable with a rubber cock that inflates while second variable is expansion of one end (use an aperture, like camera)
00:23:48 mircea_popescu: yes, but the problem becomes similar to "crack this otp"
00:23:55 mircea_popescu: "sure. i can crack it any way you want me to"
00:23:57 asciilifeform: more like cracking a rotor
00:24:21 mircea_popescu: more like cracking rsa : for the techology they had at the time, absolute security.
00:24:26 asciilifeform: as adlai pointed out, there is ample info bounding the possible plaintexts available in the ciphertext
00:24:36 asciilifeform: for their time - if they worked it correctly - yes
00:24:50 mircea_popescu: only if you assume the pad is short and fixed length
00:25:18 mircea_popescu: fixed distance i mean. if you have a 100 cm pad with 1 leter per cm, yes.
00:25:32 mircea_popescu: if you have a 5km pad with 1 letter per 1.1 cm on average, from 1 to 2, then no.
00:25:58 asciilifeform: incidentally, i love a good analogue 'stone-age' cryptomechanism. and not only for enciphering. consider the broken cup.
00:26:12 mircea_popescu: right
00:26:12 asciilifeform: authenticator, used even in ww2
00:26:27 mircea_popescu: this, iirc, was the first use of glass
00:26:32 mircea_popescu: they'd make a bead and crush it.
00:26:40 asciilifeform: modern cryptowankers' parlance calls these 'physically unclonable function'
00:27:12 asciilifeform: glass is still king, incidentally
00:27:20 mircea_popescu: tup
00:27:23 mircea_popescu: yup*
00:27:24 asciilifeform: except don't have to break it, but expose to light
00:27:37 asciilifeform: a kind of interferometric 'hash'
00:27:38 adlai: the cool thing about nonphysical crypto is that you can generate unclonable objects together with a physically separated party
00:27:57 asciilifeform: adlai: ?
00:28:10 adlai: shared secret generation
00:28:17 asciilifeform: what's the unclonable part ?
00:29:10 pete_dushenski: adlai the cool thing about everything nonphysical is... its nonphysicality ;)
00:29:41 asciilifeform: when i used word 'unclonable' - that's meant literally. as in, no one will produce a matching half of that broken glass
00:29:46 asciilifeform: even if they'd much like to
00:29:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10384 @ 0.00039901 = 4.1433 BTC [-]
00:30:01 asciilifeform: with any existing or foreseeable tech
00:30:06 adlai: i guess everything's clonable, so that's the wrong analogy to make; physical unclonable items would be used for authentication ('thing is as i remember it'), shared secrets are used for secure communication
00:30:12 asciilifeform: (there are edges a few atoms thick, in there)
00:30:36 mircea_popescu: adlai> i guess everything's clonable, << what's this, progress hour ?
00:32:09 mircea_popescu: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/03/google-seems-to-have-broken-email-forwarding/#comment-160795 << lawl i like this guy.
00:32:11 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DQSnwx )
00:32:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25936 @ 0.00040536 = 10.5134 BTC [+] {2}
00:36:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22700 @ 0.00037772 = 8.5742 BTC [-] {3}
00:37:01 asciilifeform: ^ re: linked article << 'embrace & extinguish'
00:37:25 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043090 <<< me is blown away at kakobrekla's immense fan expertise.
00:37:25 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 19:46:13; kakobrekla: heres a few of the more interesting pwm ones; http://shrani.si/f/3M/2d/4N2Jzpz2/profiles.png
00:37:47 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, that entire "oh, let's use someone else's stuff because it's stuff and why not" thing is dead.
00:38:00 mircea_popescu: they have shat the stick, so to speak. no further usage of anything unless it's in the wot.
00:38:01 asciilifeform: 'free cheese is found in mousetraps'
00:38:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 85 @ 0.03812376 = 3.2405 BTC [-] {5}
00:38:12 mircea_popescu: be it google or apple, it can fucking rot. everything will have to be reimplemented.
00:38:21 mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "not evil" us corps.
00:38:43 asciilifeform: there are also impotent, and also dead ones
00:38:58 asciilifeform: as americans used to say 'good indians are in the cemetary'
00:39:11 mircea_popescu: sure. but as a matter of principle, the naive 1990s hippy "here's a thing i found, i am using it now" thing jumped the shark.
00:39:40 asciilifeform: it's rather like those kids in ru who make a hobby of collecting mementoes from old battlefields
00:39:50 mircea_popescu: will make "get big fast" fucking impossible to get revenue on, because all the customers you want are not going by marketing.
00:39:52 asciilifeform: every so often, 'oooh coool',... 'bang'
00:40:04 asciilifeform: if you aren't a sapper - find another hobby
00:40:08 mircea_popescu: and it'll make it fucking impossible fgor all the retarded "Women in internet" to make a living at their usual scams, marketing, pr, whatever.
00:40:12 mircea_popescu: but... them's the breaks.
00:41:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 116 @ 0.012 = 1.392 BTC [-]
00:42:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043133 << wut ?! ozone is pretty much the number 1 reducer of organic matter.
00:42:27 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 20:32:25; jurov: ^ as per above, it does not affect organic molecules. just numbs the smell cells, I guess.
00:43:23 mircea_popescu: dumbass epa. from the link :
00:43:25 mircea_popescu: "The same chemical properties that allow high concentrations of ozone to react with organic material outside the body give it the ability to react with similar organic material that makes up the body, and potentially cause harmful health consequences. When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs (see - "Ozone and Your Health")."
00:43:48 asciilifeform: oxidizer not reducer
00:43:56 mircea_popescu: obviously, the reference is broken, because "We recently updated AIRNow.gov". and apparently they think this is how you say "we've recently brokenb airnow.gov"
00:44:04 asciilifeform: unless 'reducer' was meant in the ordinary, rather than chemist's, sense
00:44:09 mircea_popescu: i am certainly not taking any advice from these morons.
00:44:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ordinary. makes them shorter.
00:44:46 mircea_popescu: the smelly parts are particularly susceptible, incidentally. both aromatics and sulphide types.
00:45:00 asciilifeform: the linked crap has the basic idea, ozone works as well on the meat as on whatever you're fumigating against
00:45:07 asciilifeform: don't sit and be gassed when fumigating.
00:45:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the idea is to treat air with ozone in an ozone trap.
00:45:28 mircea_popescu: not to pump ozone into the atmosphere.
00:45:40 asciilifeform: the linked thing was about machines that do precisely the latter
00:45:49 asciilifeform: commonly sold in gringolandia as cure-alls
00:46:25 mircea_popescu: yes well, the epa idiocy was not finding the room, among very usefully distinctive verbiage like "Healthy people, as well as those with respiratory difficulty, can experience breathing problems when exposed to ozone.", to specify this
00:46:48 mircea_popescu: it's you know... kinda important. seeing how they didn't title it "a particularly braindamaged misimplementation of ozone air purifying"
00:47:14 asciilifeform: if somebody wants to dig up the warning from 1920s (mentioned briefly in the modern usg one) would be interesting to read.
00:47:23 asciilifeform: and almost certainly shorter
00:47:25 mircea_popescu: tbh, i don't know there exists material more intellectually objectionable than the shit pouring out of the usg.
00:47:28 mircea_popescu: reminds me of the damned soviets.
00:48:03 mircea_popescu: "USG - Army Of One, And They're All Retarded"
00:48:04 asciilifeform: they didn't have cut&paste
00:48:20 asciilifeform: modern usg has many advantages in bullshit production over predecessors
00:48:34 mircea_popescu: all but a working head.
00:49:23 asciilifeform: (the soviets also didn't have microshit 'word', which helps illiterates to play-pretend by turning them into a kind of cyborg meat-assisted shannonizer)
00:49:36 mircea_popescu: myeah.
00:49:44 mircea_popescu: they were stuck to formulaics instead.
00:50:00 asciilifeform: the total intellectual load placed on chumps was considerably lighter
00:50:13 asciilifeform: most folks with any kind of brain at all, just ignored the slogans when off the clock
00:50:28 asciilifeform: biggest shared 'in joke' in the world
00:50:33 asciilifeform: usa - no such luck
00:51:18 mircea_popescu: The Express? ill-defined sources appear to want to tell a story about SIGINT succeeded rather then explain how it is that SIGINT failed (at least accor ding to the story getting told publicly).' << doh.
00:52:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 833 @ 0.012 = 9.996 BTC [-]
00:52:21 mircea_popescu: here's the long and the short of this story : you got two whores, just like in the chemistry and agriculture story. one's whomint, the other's slutmint. you gotta fuck either one or the other. they both have very specific, life altering constraints.
00:52:42 mircea_popescu: if you decide to fuck whomint, where the fuck is harry poter fanfic boy going to find money to pay for his groceries ?
00:52:54 mircea_popescu: he'll have to fucking walk on streets and talk to people and non-aspie shit like that.
00:53:05 mircea_popescu: he'd rather swallow a fistful of thumbtacks.
00:53:38 mircea_popescu: so you're stuck with slutmint. no matter what fucking happens, it's going to have been a story about how "we" definitely need more slutmint, and all the time and resources spent in the past on slutmint was a good idea.
00:53:41 mircea_popescu: tis what it is.
00:54:22 asciilifeform: thought it was more mundane mechanism, where you absolutely must have elint for totalitarian control of the english world, where stoolie culture was not already well developed
00:54:30 mircea_popescu: we got slutmint and yekutzky can go on writing about what gangrene said to liberty valance or w/e.
00:54:33 asciilifeform: (and at any rate feels too much like work)
00:54:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform imo this is entirely a subjective problem.
00:55:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23299 @ 0.0003713 = 8.6509 BTC [-] {3}
00:55:30 mircea_popescu: just like the retarded 17yo who thinks she's a supermodel perceives peoiple walking down the street as "her audience", the redditard generation will perceive everything as sigint rules. because... that's the only thing they can do.
00:56:16 mircea_popescu: what do you mean "it doesn't work" ? this presumes an alt-universe in which there are alternatives, so things could not work. the world they inhabit knows no such thing, and so... of course it works.
00:57:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: or they were trying to solve a different problem:
00:57:25 asciilifeform: say, actually have every table and chair with microphone that sets off alarms if someone mutters a dissenting thought under his breath
00:57:32 asciilifeform: no more festering resentment, as in soviet times
00:57:45 asciilifeform: not that this is actually possible, necessarily, but -thinkable-
00:57:50 asciilifeform: and that's enough for the buggers
00:57:56 asciilifeform: that it's... thinkable.
00:57:58 mircea_popescu: your first doesn't lead to your second, so which do i admit, the first or the sercond ?
00:58:30 asciilifeform: they want to solve the problem of turning man into livestock
00:59:01 mircea_popescu: that's a generous problem to solve, seeing how the part that'll ever get solved was never not solved, and the rest isn't happening.
00:59:25 asciilifeform: didn't say it would happen, but the allure is irresistible to them
00:59:41 mircea_popescu: nonsense.
00:59:55 mircea_popescu: you're looking at a cat and seeing love. it's just a cat.
01:00:20 asciilifeform: it's a hungry leopard
01:00:28 asciilifeform: and 'loves' the delicious flesh.
01:00:31 mircea_popescu: only if you're chicklet sized.
01:01:22 mircea_popescu: the very notion that the us has any sort of purpose, not even conscious or expressible, but any sort whatsoever is ridiculous on its face. it has all the purpose of a shambling headless zombie. which is why they're stuck trying to invent nonsense, "women and gayz! anti pedo!!" etc.
01:01:34 mircea_popescu: it's the exact equivalent of german kids that are "anti nazi". orly ?
01:01:50 mircea_popescu: a tad late for that show.
01:02:51 asciilifeform: thinking of the still-living flesh now, not the gangrenous
01:02:53 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043158 <<< plenty.
01:02:53 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:01:23; mike_c: There isn't much doubt that they took ulbricht's coins, right?
01:03:16 asciilifeform: nsa, the fed, the nameless ones (tm), et al - are not run by the pheminist antinazi wtf crowd.
01:03:18 mike_c: but the coins are moving. how does that work?
01:03:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043160 << the basis is that they made some claims, about selling coins, and then failed to deliver on the coiuns they alleged to sell.
01:03:40 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:02:00; mike_c: i understand the theory :) I don't get the basis.
01:03:51 mircea_popescu: this is exactly identical to bfl delivering miners, with USMS playing the role of inaba.
01:04:06 mircea_popescu: coins move all the time.
01:04:47 mircea_popescu: anyway, the onus is not on observers to explain the usg. the usg made some claims, which were in due time proven false.
01:04:55 mircea_popescu: which they ignored.
01:05:26 mircea_popescu: sure, it's "not been 100% proven as a scam". this however isn't the criteria. you lie, you get caught, you're fucked.
01:08:01 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043164 << emphatically no.
01:08:01 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:02:54; mike_c: seems there ought to be some reasonable blockchain evidence one way or the other. don't we know the ulbricht address in question?
01:08:08 cazalla: clinton ran own mail server, who knew lol http://bigstory.ap.org/article/b78ba433af3a45209668f745158d994c/clinton-ran-homebrew-computer-system-official-emails
01:08:11 assbot: House committee subpoenas Clinton emails in Benghazi probe ... ( http://bit.ly/1NmZ0yC )
01:08:11 mircea_popescu: the blockchain is not an evidentiary record for third parties.
01:09:26 mircea_popescu: "The development on Capitol Hill came the same day The Associated Press reported the existence of a personal email server traced back to the Chappaqua, New York, home of Clinton. The unusual practice of a Cabinet-level official running her own email server would have given Clinton ? who is expected to run for president in the 2016 campaign ? significant control over limiting access to her message archives."
01:09:36 mircea_popescu: derp. emails still travel in plaintext, and this is the sigint we get ?
01:09:56 asciilifeform: exactly the same way btc tx travels in plaintext
01:10:06 asciilifeform: clinton, etc. don't expect to lose anything if it gets out
01:10:15 asciilifeform: because, to the extent is valuable - nonattributable
01:10:43 mircea_popescu: perhaps.
01:10:45 asciilifeform: if tomorrow we get a 'leaked' clinton email where clitler reveals that she is medusa and can kill with headsnakes - what will change ?
01:10:58 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform clinton's going to claim 'hacked' when one of these emails shows something undue ?
01:11:24 pete_dushenski: or is doesn't matter what she claims ?
01:11:40 asciilifeform: 'respectable' mouthpieces won't touch the subject
01:11:49 asciilifeform: it'll be like the 9/11 crap.
01:12:10 asciilifeform: 'xxxxx.' 'you're a nutter, go away'
01:12:27 pete_dushenski: well, clinton isn't the wtc
01:12:33 pete_dushenski: far from it.
01:13:05 pete_dushenski: she's a distraction at best and a fallguy at worst
01:13:24 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043230 << yeah srsly, etrade is iirc 30
01:13:24 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:40:01; mike_c: $5 / month is rich?
01:13:26 pete_dushenski: but hey, let's see her run and find out
01:13:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's rich if it's denominated in plutonium!
01:14:07 mircea_popescu: she's definitely the more intellectually capable husk they got floating around. who else, jeb, bush's retarded brother/cousin/sister in law ?
01:14:22 asciilifeform: don't forget the other obama
01:15:33 mircea_popescu: the other obama is not really qualified to run kim's shoe boutique.
01:15:44 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu i seem to recall you saying something to the effect of 'old women in power are the fucking worst'
01:15:52 pete_dushenski: is hillary exempt from this ?
01:16:09 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski not my country, whadda i care. she's still the only not braidamaged runner so far.
01:16:41 ben_vulpes: <pete_dushenski> asciilifeform clinton's going to claim 'hacked' when one of these emails shows something undue ? << a good reason to use usg mailservers and own your keys
01:17:06 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu except she's not running... yet.
01:17:11 mircea_popescu: yeah. right.
01:17:11 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: point was that these folks live in a perverse sandbox world where it literally doesn't matter what happens
01:17:21 mircea_popescu: which is why the democrats have alternatives. because she's not running.
01:17:34 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform 'the show must go on!'
01:17:43 asciilifeform: as orlov pointed out
01:17:51 asciilifeform: they don't care if they win a war, lose a war, here&there
01:18:22 asciilifeform: it's a very long road (or so they think) to hitler's bunker and 'headsoff.com' being filmed on washington streets
01:18:23 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu repblicans don't exactly 'have alternative', much less plural
01:19:03 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu and i'd still bet a nickel on the republicans
01:19:32 pete_dushenski: dems might take even longer shot because ya, doesn't much matter.
01:20:00 cazalla: pete_dushenski, pretty sure she can't announce nomination until such and such a date.. part of what made the bitbet bet's that clinton and rand would announce last year an easy win
01:20:04 pete_dushenski: might as well make an interesting ballot pairing of two people noone has ever heard of
01:20:07 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> which is why the democrats have alternatives. because she's not running. << implying she might run in 8 years?
01:20:29 pete_dushenski: cazalla aha
01:20:43 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes lol when she's 80
01:20:51 ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: srs
01:21:20 ben_vulpes: 76, but whatever.
01:21:26 ben_vulpes: 77?
01:21:34 ben_vulpes: 42!
01:21:41 pete_dushenski: that's the secret
01:21:48 ben_vulpes: answer.
01:23:18 pete_dushenski: kinda like 'where's osama's body?'
01:23:34 pete_dushenski: actually, osama's body is much like these usms auctions
01:24:02 pete_dushenski: many promises, only hollywood 'evidence'
01:24:19 pete_dushenski: 'we made a movie and it won an oscar so history happened!'
01:24:28 *: adlai wonders what evidence you're expecting to see of the auctions
01:24:39 asciilifeform: or the body
01:24:47 asciilifeform: (does each u.s. citizen get a small piece?)
01:24:56 pete_dushenski: to taste, yes
01:25:01 pete_dushenski: like the wooly mammoth
01:26:08 pete_dushenski: and since osama is basically the usg's religious messiah, come to save it from internal destruction by providing an external enemy, why not make a whole church service around him
01:26:19 pete_dushenski: offering up his 'body and blood'
01:31:58 pete_dushenski: adlai 'the winner' getting out of dodge and never looking back would do.
01:32:17 pete_dushenski: otherwise, wtf is wrong with their heads.
01:33:41 pete_dushenski: so barring that much braindamage in a single vessle, we should see silbert or whoever packing their bags for rio de janeiro
01:42:41 adlai: it's a problem, the people who frequent such yardsales probably like hanging around the yard
01:48:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7868 @ 0.00036272 = 2.8539 BTC [+] {2}
01:49:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25732 @ 0.00038164 = 9.8204 BTC [+] {2}
01:50:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7968 @ 0.00038297 = 3.0515 BTC [+]
01:57:09 asciilifeform: for some reason nobody mentioned the ugliest thing about ada
01:57:17 asciilifeform: the 200k helloworld.
01:57:38 danielpbarron: i ordered that "bible" you mentioned
01:57:55 asciilifeform: pragma No_Run_Time;
01:57:55 asciilifeform: with Interfaces.C; use Interfaces.C;
01:57:55 asciilifeform: procedure Hello is
01:57:55 asciilifeform: procedure Puts (Str : Char_Array);
01:57:55 asciilifeform: pragma Import (C, Puts, "puts");
01:57:56 asciilifeform: begin
01:57:58 asciilifeform: Puts ("Hello, World!");
01:58:00 asciilifeform: end Hello;
01:58:02 asciilifeform: ^ 6k on my box
01:58:04 asciilifeform: but you can see how this cheats.
01:58:33 asciilifeform: (both numbers refer to stripped elf's on an x86-64 box)
01:59:08 mats: i managed to make ~60% ROI in the 13 months ive had a coinbr account
01:59:15 mats: thanks jurov
01:59:18 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: you will have a real bitch of a time learning the language from the standard and justification docs, if that's what you were thinking of doing
01:59:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4671 @ 0.00040988 = 1.9145 BTC [+]
02:00:37 danielpbarron: not sure what i was thinking except that i like the chapter:verse thing
02:00:53 danielpbarron: sounds like the book is timeless or something / probably a good investment
02:01:16 asciilifeform: all serious technical docs 'written for the ages' ought to be in that format.
02:01:27 danielpbarron: mats, was 60% enough to make up for the drop in USD/BTC price?
02:02:40 danielpbarron: i found a used one for 60 USD (the new is twice that) and impulsively added it to another order i had pending
02:03:07 mats: no, i bought a majority of it at 800 BTCUSD
02:03:09 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: make sure it describes at least the '95' variant
02:03:13 asciilifeform: at the earliest
02:04:00 danielpbarron: mats, so your "gains" were really just you helping out the fiat traders / at least it beat buying bitcoin and doing nothing with it
02:04:35 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i searched for the code you mentioned in here, and yeah it says 95 in the title or whatever
02:05:05 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: there are four adas - 83, 95, 2005, 2012
02:05:38 mats: yes, thats the downside to having imperfect information
02:05:47 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, http://www.amazon.com/dp/3540693351/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_asp_tErxI.1VXP299
02:05:49 assbot: Amazon.com: Ada 2005 Reference Manual. Language and Standard Libraries: International Standard ISO/IEC 8652/1995(E) with Technical Corrigendum 1 and Amendment 1 ... / Programming and Software Engineering) (9783540693352): S. Tucker Taft, Robert A. Duff, Randall L. Brukardt, Erhard Ploedereder, Pasca ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdeOgX )
02:06:03 danielpbarron: ah apparently i got the 2005 one
02:06:12 asciilifeform: get the 'rationale' too
02:06:16 asciilifeform: that's the one with chapter & verse
02:06:32 asciilifeform: or rather, they both have it
02:06:44 asciilifeform: but error messages (in verbose mode) cite rationale, iirc
02:06:54 decimation: aren't those all published on the internet?
02:07:02 asciilifeform: decimation: they are
02:07:07 asciilifeform: i assumed he likes dead tree
02:08:20 asciilifeform: http://comp.lang.ada.narkive.com/vnn86krY/size-of-linked-program-increasing-with-new-version-of-gnat << mega-flamew4r
02:08:22 assbot: Size of linked program increasing with new version of GNAT. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bdfkvo )
02:11:48 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043281 << it's actually how brokerages work irl.
02:11:48 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:51:43; jurov: thestringpuller that's exactly what i do have in mind
02:12:08 mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> "implying she might run in 8 years?" << no, being facetious.
02:12:17 mircea_popescu: it's plain obvious she's the democrat candidate.
02:12:18 decimation: asciilifeform: the wisdom I've picked up from my own experiments and reading about yours is that it seems the ada compiler you choose is critical
02:12:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6218 @ 0.00040946 = 2.546 BTC [-]
02:13:29 mircea_popescu: "18* adlai wonders what evidence you're expecting to see of the auctions" << complete misstatement of the situaiton. read the logs. search for "foia" might help
02:13:47 asciilifeform: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=YrA1zuD2 << fucking scammerz
02:13:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bdgozi )
02:14:01 *: mircea_popescu is mildly offended at this "i will persist in being a redditard" attitude, for the record.
02:14:16 asciilifeform: decimation: i tested on both available compilers, the foundation's and the gnu
02:14:21 asciilifeform: decimation: same result
02:14:40 asciilifeform: decimation: i did not test on any closed-source compiler because they don't exist on the planet i choose to live on
02:14:49 thestringpuller: why is everyone complaining about ada
02:15:04 thestringpuller: 2 beers in and a few exercises this is not bad .jpeg
02:15:08 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: because there is not actually an alternative to ada
02:15:21 asciilifeform: and i think i'm the only one actually talking about it, for the most part
02:15:52 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: you have reignited my love for computers again
02:15:59 thestringpuller: despite your pessimism :D
02:16:11 *: asciilifeform wonders how
02:16:27 mircea_popescu: fun fact : elf does not contain a windows byte. netbsd, linux, system v etc.
02:16:53 asciilifeform: why would it ?
02:16:57 asciilifeform: microshit wasn't at the table
02:17:00 asciilifeform: which is as it ought to be
02:17:41 mircea_popescu: not saying it should, merely pointing it out :D
02:19:04 decimation: wasn't it well known that microsoft stole the bsd IP stack for windows NT?
02:19:12 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i love old microshit tho. found a copy of 3d studio R1 from 1990, and it runs on ms dos
02:19:20 thestringpuller: it's slightly poetic.
02:19:24 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what's that got to do with microshit?
02:19:25 thestringpuller: TRON style i 'spose
02:19:31 mircea_popescu: lol mats made 60% bringing his losses to only 60%.
02:19:33 asciilifeform: '3d studio' was an 'autodesk' product
02:19:46 asciilifeform: ran in protected mode, too, using no actual msdos api
02:19:47 thestringpuller: that runs on microshit dos
02:19:49 thestringpuller: lol
02:20:08 *: asciilifeform spent what must have been a whole year playing with it as a kid
02:20:08 thestringpuller: i can't bring myself to hate on DOS
02:20:25 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: dos was not, properly speaking, a microshit product
02:20:26 asciilifeform: stolen.
02:20:38 mircea_popescu: unlike which ?
02:20:48 decimation: yeah it was a stolen reimplemenation of cp/m as i recall
02:21:03 mircea_popescu: pretty much
02:21:14 thestringpuller: i thought even windows and nt were "stolen"
02:21:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043293 << for the exact reason george costanza once pointed out. "it's there"
02:21:40 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:00:28; asciilifeform: i kinda wonder why poor folks are even interested in mpex (or, for that matter, schwab)
02:22:04 adlai: !s foia
02:22:05 assbot: 40 results for 'foia' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=foia
02:22:11 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043306 << ahahaha zing
02:22:11 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:06:11; mike_c: yeah, some like ada :D
02:23:12 mircea_popescu: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/03/google-seems-to-have-broken-email-forwarding/#comment-160814 << sweet innocence.
02:23:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bdii30 )
02:23:33 mircea_popescu: if one is willing to take this tack, i wonder why one's not going the whole nine yards and throwing out the keyboard.
02:23:40 mircea_popescu: "I JUST WANT THE COMPUTER TO FUCKING WORK!!!1"
02:24:40 decimation: mircea_popescu I thought you were just making a point about "I use this thing and it works" is so 90's
02:25:01 mircea_popescu: the entire "i want government to just work by itself and let me to my affairs" has worked splendidly in the us, 70s to 2000s.
02:25:04 decimation: apparently jwz wants to live in the past
02:25:28 mircea_popescu: not the past, as this never existed, but a magical future where things work by themselves in the way ~you~ want them to.
02:25:41 decimation: in exchange for nothing, mind
02:25:45 mircea_popescu: the crowning nonsense of all nonsense, seriously. why is it not obvious that if you give up agency you also give up... agency ?
02:25:46 adlai: he seems to want free tech support
02:25:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this ancient fallacy has a name: 'dwim'
02:26:08 adlai: asciilifeform: are you familiar with dwimlisp?
02:26:18 mircea_popescu: right.
02:26:27 asciilifeform: adlai: aha
02:27:28 mircea_popescu: http://dwimperl.com/
02:27:29 assbot: DWIM Perl - the Perl distribution that contains everything you'll ever need ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdjdAo )
02:27:36 mircea_popescu: since im in a ftr mood apparently.
02:28:03 asciilifeform: dwim is the shortest possible summary of how illiterate folks imagine programming
02:28:12 asciilifeform: or engineering in general
02:28:14 mircea_popescu: !s babbage
02:28:15 assbot: 6 results for 'babbage' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=babbage
02:28:39 asciilifeform: 'On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.'
02:28:49 decimation: apparently jwz's main business is running a club now
02:29:02 asciilifeform: decimation: that's where he parked his 'escape rocket'
02:29:11 mircea_popescu: yeah he has a disco in la he's been fighting the gobmint forever over.
02:29:11 adlai: (for the curious/brave - http://dwim.hu (requires javascript and much searching as it's impossible to link into this 'website'))
02:29:13 asciilifeform: i have always had a mild dislike for jwz and was never able to articulate why
02:29:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why ?
02:29:34 decimation: asciilifeform: he strikes me as a washed-up do-o-crat
02:29:56 mircea_popescu: iirc he started out as a lisp hacker.
02:29:56 asciilifeform: possibly because only fact i knew about him was him being involved in the dotcom bubble and being responsible for the steaming crock of shit that is netscape, and, by implication, the entire shit soup of www standards
02:30:04 mircea_popescu: uh.
02:30:14 adlai: he forked xemacs from gnu
02:30:18 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: almost all american programmers of a certain age once wrote lisp of some description
02:30:23 mircea_popescu: the www soup is scarcely to be pinned on one man, and if one man were to be found it's likely not this one.
02:30:36 asciilifeform: getting rich off netscape feels vaguely unsavoury in my book
02:30:40 mircea_popescu: why ?
02:30:54 adlai: jws was an employee at netscape
02:31:00 adlai: rather junior one
02:31:04 decimation: well, for one thing they stole mosaic
02:31:17 asciilifeform: anyway, not really pissing on the man in earnest here
02:31:39 asciilifeform: just confessing that my overall burning hatred for the time, place, and culture in which he became rich & famous spills onto him.
02:32:13 mircea_popescu: i liked the 90s!
02:32:34 mircea_popescu: i may even go so far as to say i liked the 90s sv o.O
02:32:46 asciilifeform: if i were to learn that he made his nightclub seed money by executing contract hits, rather than at netscape, i'd like him considerably more
02:33:13 adlai: he did piss off stallman
02:33:22 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043311 << "moving the market", in professional language "slippage" is not a desirable phenomenon but the bane of all existance.
02:33:22 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:07:20; danielpbarron: asciilifeform's got a good point though, with such little amounts you aren't going to move the market -- might as well just pretend trade in a txt file
02:33:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm sure the denizens liked it also. but as al said, 'first ecstasy, then laundry.' we're living with the results of '90s sv.
02:33:42 decimation: adlai: it's probably impossible to do something positive to emacs without pissing off stallman
02:33:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's somewhat like saying that 'engineers hate friction'
02:33:55 mircea_popescu: or anything else for that matter.
02:34:14 asciilifeform: not exactly false, but no mechanical device would function if friction did not exist
02:34:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform slippage is not friction, slippage is your lab getting hit by earthquakes.
02:34:37 asciilifeform: but what if the lab is not a lab, but a bomb whose entire purpose is to trigger earthquake
02:34:39 mircea_popescu: "how the fuck am i supposed to do any scioence in here!111"
02:34:52 mircea_popescu: that is the EXACT feeling it evokes in financeheads.
02:35:02 adlai: i'm not sure the constructive uses of friction have any parallel either... beyond maybe as a cost of manipulation (when you don't control the tape)
02:35:36 *: asciilifeform is not aware of any successful instances of 'moving market', other than brute affairs like buterin's waterfall or the earlier and better-known gold price suppression scheme
02:35:48 mircea_popescu: netscape is a fine example.
02:35:55 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: buterin's waterfall is leaky tho.
02:37:14 adlai: asciilifeform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday
02:37:16 assbot: Silver Thursday - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdkVBV )
02:37:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will remember we're discussing markets here. the phenomenon of alleged "prices" in a situation where the government is the largest economic actor is laughable anyway.
02:37:29 asciilifeform: ^
02:37:31 decimation: moldbug has a post about why central banks spend most of their time trying to figure out how to not move the market
02:37:38 mircea_popescu: any system where taxes exceed maybe 6 or 7% is de facto a command economy,
02:37:44 mircea_popescu: generally a very poorly implemented one
02:38:16 thestringpuller: i would love to be taxed at 7%
02:38:26 thestringpuller: my God what country is that?!?
02:38:50 danielpbarron: a sim city still set to defaults
02:38:59 trinque: !b 3
02:38:59 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2NED0VT.txt )
02:39:00 thestringpuller: danielpbarron is my all time favorite person now
02:39:17 thestringpuller: the funny thing is
02:39:18 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what country << generally, the 'orc world' where laws aren't actually enforced unless you piss people off
02:39:25 thestringpuller: that if 7% is still too high for high wealth sims
02:39:44 thestringpuller: like seriously, high wealth sims are only happy at like 4%
02:39:58 thestringpuller: your cities fill up with poor people >7%
02:40:22 danielpbarron: i could never get everyone happy even when i used to glitch to get "MAXINT" currency units
02:40:55 thestringpuller: keep typing FUNDS. QE infinity.
02:40:57 decimation: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/01/greg_page_on_fo.html > "And there have always been voices to let market signals determine how farmers planted their crops. Don't make people grow cotton just to maintain their base acres in the cotton program, when the world is crying out for more soybeans to feed itself."
02:40:59 assbot: " + soundfiledesc + " ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdlQT2 )
02:41:01 asciilifeform: where i live, 40% is considered pretty good.
02:41:19 thestringpuller: this is how I imagined QE though, some d00d at Fed typing "FUNDS FUNDS FUNDS" over again on his computer.
02:41:30 decimation: asciilifeform: that's not even counting the fact that usd in your 'savings' account is continually thieved
02:41:35 asciilifeform: decimation: aha
02:41:46 asciilifeform: speaking just of old-fashioned taxes
02:41:47 thestringpuller: 401k is a scam
02:41:53 thestringpuller: and enron ruined pensions for everyone
02:42:05 asciilifeform: good thing i don't expect to live to pension age
02:42:15 decimation: I was just looking at the 'mid-cap value' fund from vanguard
02:42:20 asciilifeform: (nor, in general, should other u.s. folks, unless they're already very old)
02:42:22 decimation: the 'value' forward p/e was 30!
02:42:46 thestringpuller: asciilifeform that is depressing!
02:43:10 decimation: asciilifeform: what are you gonna do? withdraw your retirement with penalty and move to mexico?
02:43:23 asciilifeform: decimation: what made you think i have anything to withdraw ?
02:43:55 decimation: asciilifeform: surely you get paid a little extra
02:44:11 thestringpuller: asciilifeform contribute 0
02:44:16 thestringpuller: per paycheck
02:44:24 thestringpuller: instead his retirement is held in cyborgs and robots
02:44:28 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i don't even work at a place where they ask the question any more
02:44:52 thestringpuller: so you are pretty much robot worker?
02:45:02 asciilifeform: ?
02:45:18 thestringpuller: employer treats you like thing and not person
02:45:26 asciilifeform: neh, sorta the opposite
02:45:28 asciilifeform: but contractor
02:45:32 asciilifeform: these get paid in money
02:45:39 trinque: asciilifeform: even the fall of the soviet union didn't kill off all the former soviets
02:45:40 asciilifeform: (what passes for money in this part of the world)
02:45:48 trinque: what do you think is going to kill us off?
02:45:53 asciilifeform: trinque: read orlov's 'post-soviet lessons' to learn why the analogy does not apply
02:45:58 trinque: k
02:46:02 asciilifeform: trinque: know that no one in the ussr needed to pay rent
02:46:07 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: hey you're the one who can't spend benjies without setting off alarms.
02:46:23 thestringpuller: i'm doing just fine with my duffelbag full of cash here.
02:46:27 asciilifeform: trinque: (a token sum was collected, but no one could be evicted for any reason short of death or having new digs in prison)
02:46:39 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i don't get paid in benjies
02:46:57 thestringpuller: my employer said this is totally normal tho!
02:47:04 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: but, like most folks in my profession, in 'legit' electric bzollarz
02:47:39 asciilifeform: for a 'legit' firm, that keeps a single set of books and files taxes, etc
02:47:49 thestringpuller: that 1099
02:48:05 asciilifeform: aha
02:48:06 decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.zillow.com/blog/rents-up-not-where-you-expect-170427/ < rents in the us are nearly 10% YoY in some cities
02:48:08 assbot: Rents Are Up, and Not Where You Might Expect | Zillow Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1Nnjffr )
02:48:18 *: asciilifeform is aware that we're probably boring the folks outside the u.s. zoolag to tears
02:48:30 thestringpuller: so tru story: buddy from high school was telling me about d00d who was a drug dealer but setup "consulting" llc for "professional coaching"
02:48:48 thestringpuller: d00d would just sell high end weed, and claim it as "consulting services" and would tax that
02:49:00 thestringpuller: ended up retiring before 40
02:49:04 trinque: sure, "computer repair"
02:49:31 thestringpuller: d00d even made invoices for his recurring clientelle
02:49:36 thestringpuller: pretty sure no one went to jail
02:49:44 trinque: yeah, I'm referring to a former friend of mine
02:49:53 trinque: "on site computer repair" bullshit
02:50:09 asciilifeform: laundries are as old as the state itself
02:50:34 thestringpuller: you can still go to jail for tax evasion
02:51:17 thestringpuller: US just wants their cut (not like it helps since we are bankrupt)
02:51:26 trinque: well... "bankrupt"
02:51:34 asciilifeform: incidentally, you will not necessarily go to jail - but the duffel bag - will.
02:51:37 asciilifeform: if ever 'caught'
02:51:44 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i kno rite?!?
02:51:55 thestringpuller: so there is new drug unit in west georgia now
02:52:05 thestringpuller: soul purpose is collecting those duffelbags
02:52:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5029 @ 0.00040988 = 2.0613 BTC [+]
02:52:27 thestringpuller: in fact it is richest police unit in that county
02:52:50 asciilifeform: wait till they switch from plain static robbery to racket
02:53:00 asciilifeform: as always happens in a collapsing police state
02:53:10 thestringpuller: http://www.sheriff.douglas.ga.us/find.html << it is more of racket now me thinks
02:53:29 thestringpuller: the "evidence" is probably auctioned off under the table somewhere
02:54:00 thestringpuller: "The F.I.N.D. Unit has made forty-eight (48) traffic stops that resulted in the detection of bulk cash smugglers."
02:54:12 thestringpuller: "The total amount of United States Currency seized from the stops is: $13,647,160" << they just want new toys
02:55:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14700 @ 0.00040519 = 5.9563 BTC [-] {2}
02:55:27 asciilifeform: https://github.com/search?q=gnatelim&type=Code << who can find anything there which isn't a) word salad or b) part of gcc ?
02:55:28 assbot: Search · gnatelim · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1NnkATM )
02:55:40 asciilifeform: has gnatelim -ever- been fired in anger?
02:55:42 asciilifeform: by anyone ?
02:56:02 PeterL: mircea_popescu: Is F.DERP statement coming soon?
02:57:34 *: asciilifeform was just ip-banned by 'github' for 'too many requests from your addr'
02:57:43 asciilifeform: apparently no one actually reads it in earnest
02:58:12 *: asciilifeform examines source of 'gnatelim' and it appears that it is only able to snip dead code that is -actually represented in your source-
02:58:18 asciilifeform: why would you have dead routines in your own source?
02:58:28 asciilifeform: severe head trauma in childhood ?
03:00:40 mircea_popescu: PeterL being prepared. there's definitely going to be one.
03:01:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 40% or 90% is purely a wordchoice matter, much like the zhim thing. 5%ish is where it matters.
03:02:09 asciilifeform: aha, it's like the decision of how many thousand volts to use in electric chair
03:02:21 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller> and enron ruined pensions for everyone << if only. "My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to i
03:02:21 mircea_popescu: n his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement. All she had was social security to live on."
03:03:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21800 @ 0.00040327 = 8.7913 BTC [-] {2}
03:05:12 adlai: found via reading orlov's Lessons >> http://dieoff.org/
03:05:14 assbot: OVERSHOOT LOOP: Evolution Under The Maximum Power Principle ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdrODl )
03:05:48 mircea_popescu: * asciilifeform was just ip-banned by 'github' for 'too many requests from your addr' << lmao.
03:05:52 mircea_popescu: this takes the fucking cake,
03:06:09 mircea_popescu: open source is safe because it's read by millions of eyes, which we ban.
03:08:00 asciilifeform: was flipping through search results
03:08:02 asciilifeform: of that crud
03:08:13 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043334 << it would not. godel problem / surprise executio nproblem manifested for your convenience as slippage i guess.
03:08:13 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:12:30; asciilifeform: folks with a clue - comment, would the result have any useful connection with reality ?
03:08:37 *: asciilifeform suspected
03:09:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for all the major differences between them and us, it occurs to me there's a very painfully obvious stylistical point : b-a.com doesn't have traffic tracking, github.com doesn't let you search.
03:09:14 mircea_popescu: verrrrry deep this "minor point'
03:09:24 asciilifeform: yet one or more optimal play variants must exist (in the sense the 'optimal' minimax game of chess exists. not in the sense that you could actually play that game or ever see so much as one move of it in life)
03:09:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nope. the notion of "optimal" is undefined.
03:09:37 adlai: b-a.com doesn't log?
03:09:48 adlai: (log itself, not the channel)
03:09:55 mircea_popescu: adlai not iirc.
03:10:02 mircea_popescu: !s don't keep logs
03:10:03 assbot: 1 results for 'don't keep logs' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=don%27t+keep+logs
03:10:29 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: defined as 'what bits would you send back in time to time T1, if you could, from time T2, to maximize profit from investing C coin'
03:10:34 mircea_popescu: hm. it was discussed but i think long long ago, pre searchable stuff.
03:10:52 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this isn't a definition tho.
03:11:04 mircea_popescu: "what would happen if it didn't happen ?"
03:11:08 asciilifeform: it's an existence proof
03:11:13 asciilifeform: say we limit the length of the string
03:11:20 mircea_popescu: nope. you use in one phase symbols that don't exist of the other.
03:11:35 asciilifeform: therefore one or more possible strings would result in max C'
03:11:38 mircea_popescu: '(what bits would you send back in time to time T1), if you could, from time T2, (to maximize profit from investing C coin)'
03:11:44 mircea_popescu: part 2 presumes part 1 doesn't exist.
03:12:29 *: asciilifeform can see where mircea_popescu is going - 'no clockwork universe' - but a trading engine in sufficiently small time span does behave rather like a clockwork universe
03:12:43 mircea_popescu: yes, it does, provided you don't take it out of there.
03:12:48 mircea_popescu: but you're proposing to do exactly that.
03:12:58 mircea_popescu: the moment you start doin this sort of thing it no longer behaves thusly.
03:13:32 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu doesn't 'believe in' infinitesimals either, does he
03:13:39 mircea_popescu: to put this to intuition : suppose in the alt-universe where your microscopic trade happened, another trader happened to see it and panic.
03:13:49 asciilifeform: 'butterfly' ?
03:13:50 asciilifeform: sure
03:14:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bdt9tO )
03:14:09 *: asciilifeform read time machine stories as a kid just like everybody else
03:15:24 mircea_popescu: there are a number of hard rules of the world we inhabit, that children take some time to internalize. one is, of course, "move backwards through time" thing. what adolescent did not ponder this, wish it, etc.
03:15:48 mircea_popescu: another is the complexity problem. the simple fact that once the father has said "i know shit", if he opens his mouth enough to say as little as some basic math, he's now wrong.
03:15:53 mircea_popescu: they are of course related.
03:16:00 adlai: When we differ, Charlie usually ends the conversation by saying: “Warren,
03:16:02 adlai: think it over and you’ll agree with me because you’re smart and I’m right.”
03:16:11 mircea_popescu: in any event, all human folly is based on the failure to come to terms and trying to go through the wall.
03:16:38 mircea_popescu: like, the complexity problem guarantees no government will ever succeed. yet who's deterred from "empirebuilding".
03:17:05 mircea_popescu: the time direction thing never stopped anyone from thinking "hey, i could have done better!" or be bitter about how things turned out etc.
03:17:21 asciilifeform: the mouse is only really alive because he tries to go through the glass bottle
03:17:28 asciilifeform: at all times
03:17:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but this is from cause.
03:17:41 mircea_popescu: now look at it from the fallacious "purpose" perspective.
03:17:47 mircea_popescu: is he alive because he... means to ?
03:17:53 mircea_popescu: because he thinks he should have ?
03:18:13 asciilifeform: does steam 'mean to' burst a boiler with plugged valve ?
03:18:24 mircea_popescu: take this with a grain of salt, but here it is :
03:18:33 asciilifeform: the 'purpose' thing is just a demented lens for viewing anything
03:18:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00040988 = 3.6889 BTC [+]
03:19:26 mircea_popescu: at its core, the "optimal retrospective investment" problem is a nude and rude proposition to replace the action imperative ("mouse must escape or die in the act of trying") with an imaginary junk. ("it could have been"). this is not substantially different from what the usg does when it invents a new name for the homeless and pretends to have "resolved the problem".
03:19:40 mircea_popescu: it "works" like all fatlogic works : because it's easier
03:20:16 mircea_popescu: but otherwise, utter waste of time.
03:21:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if waste of time, then what is the correct answer that machine like 'scalpl' is actually approximating when it grinds ?
03:21:13 mircea_popescu: it doesn't exist.
03:21:26 mircea_popescu: what is the correct code gcc approximates as it churns on cygwin ?
03:21:33 asciilifeform: it provably exists
03:21:45 asciilifeform: (not by demonstration. but by deduction)
03:21:45 mircea_popescu: for as long as the proof is wrong, yes, it provably exists.
03:21:49 mircea_popescu: right.
03:22:05 mircea_popescu: the mere fact that you have such proof is sufficient proof that it is wrong.
03:22:10 mircea_popescu: its mere presence suffices.
03:23:12 asciilifeform: somewhat perverted understanding here
03:23:14 mircea_popescu: far be it from me to diss fiction - the creation of "proofs" we know from the outset to be false and then their taking apart to examine where they stole our eyes is exactly shakespeare's trade.
03:23:20 asciilifeform: is only non-provable in the general case
03:23:26 mircea_popescu: but this is the general case.
03:23:27 asciilifeform: for arbitrarily many specific cases - provable.
03:23:40 asciilifeform: for trivial example, the shortest program which does nothing at all is ''.
03:23:41 mircea_popescu: only if they don't include it. once you've included it... you've made it general.
03:23:46 asciilifeform: works on most machines, even!
03:23:55 mircea_popescu: lol
03:23:59 mircea_popescu: no but see ?
03:24:08 asciilifeform: for the original line of reasoning, see chaitin.
03:24:25 mircea_popescu: looky here : for as long as you don't aim to use the "shortest program" thing for the purpose of attacking my statement, it is ok.
03:24:31 mircea_popescu: once you do, you're fucked. "works on most machines" now.
03:25:08 *: asciilifeform did carefully specify that the 'ideal play' is not actually findable
03:25:25 asciilifeform: in the general case.
03:25:38 mircea_popescu: well... chaitin and torkel should be refered together
03:26:05 mircea_popescu: very naggum-ish character actually. except iirc swedish
03:26:53 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043344 << hehe
03:26:53 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:15:35; asciilifeform: you would have done better than 'perfect info' bot << impossible by definition
03:27:55 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043343 << anyway, this is what triggered the discussion, and to move on to more practical considerations :
03:27:55 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:15:19; asciilifeform: understand, interested here in 'theoretical best' of what a smart person with almost no funding could achieve
03:28:26 mircea_popescu: making money is not a function of one's hard work and dilligence in the schoolhouse sense.
03:29:01 asciilifeform: what - in the actual world people inhabit - *is* a function of it?
03:29:02 mircea_popescu: making money is a purely ~political~ function. if you are among the favoured elite of the respublica veneta, you then may invest in the ships, and make a profit. if not, not.
03:29:25 mircea_popescu: if you are one of the people buying belgian rubber concessions on the stock exchanges, you make money. if you're in africa, you make quick with the hands and feet.
03:29:50 mircea_popescu: otherwise, there are some classes of optimization problems ~once you're already rich~.
03:29:51 asciilifeform: l0l
03:30:00 mircea_popescu: but this is conservation. one does not acquire wealth except one single way
03:30:01 asciilifeform: this is exactly how sov. textbooks described stock markets!
03:30:18 mircea_popescu: and that is, joining the wot early, and helping set the world on fire. it. strictly it.
03:30:37 mircea_popescu: the hoodlums trying to be drug lords in detroit have a lot more sense in this matter than the "business majors" coming out of harvard.
03:30:44 mircea_popescu: (some of the latter get it, but rare is that bird).
03:30:48 asciilifeform: 'have low serial number on your party card' ?
03:31:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, us had a much better view of the soviets than the soviets, and vice-versa.
03:31:16 *: asciilifeform not convinced that the hoodlums have more 'sense' than the mouse in the bottle
03:31:28 mircea_popescu: the mouse in the bottle is a superlative of sense.
03:31:33 mircea_popescu: there's no more sense to be had.
03:31:46 asciilifeform: sure there is. an ant can bite in milliseconds.
03:31:55 asciilifeform: smaller nervous system, elementary
03:32:05 mircea_popescu: so ?
03:32:25 asciilifeform: the mouse thing is really about the virtues of not-thinking, no ?
03:32:32 mircea_popescu: no ?
03:33:07 mircea_popescu: it's about not spending your time writing fiction under the pretense of "thinking". the mouse excels at this.
03:33:20 asciilifeform: in that he doesn't have anything like an accurate internal model of his situation, in the bottle
03:33:26 mircea_popescu: but he does.
03:33:34 asciilifeform: really?
03:33:35 mircea_popescu: that's the thing. he does, more so than bill gates.
03:33:52 asciilifeform: mouse understands glass better than the bird (recall the bird film i posted? also persistent beast, also against glass!)
03:34:03 mircea_popescu: he doesn't understand the implementation details. but the situation, he understands just fine.
03:34:24 asciilifeform: i'm quite unconvinced that the bird did
03:34:41 mircea_popescu: prolly not.
03:34:42 asciilifeform: (he was trying to get -in-, for no apparent reason, rather than escape a jar)
03:34:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35506 @ 0.00041126 = 14.6022 BTC [+] {2}
03:35:00 mircea_popescu: birds are really closer to insects than mammals.
03:35:09 mircea_popescu: from a software perspective.
03:35:42 mircea_popescu: it's basically a sort of windows nt, to replace windows 3.1. look, flashier plumage and mating dances!
03:35:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10994 @ 0.00041265 = 4.5367 BTC [+] {2}
03:36:05 asciilifeform: incidentally, i'm rather curious re: how a social animal (rat, wolf) would do in the bottle
03:36:19 mircea_popescu: i once found a fox leg in a bear trap.
03:36:30 asciilifeform: fight the glass to the death - or 'submit' to it as to a 'commanding officer'
03:36:51 asciilifeform: fox is famous for just this
03:37:00 asciilifeform: but not really pack animal, afaik
03:37:30 mircea_popescu: i guess not really no.
03:38:06 BingoBoingo: !b 4
03:38:07 assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2NJFTX3.txt )
03:38:15 asciilifeform: i once caught a groundhog (marmota monax) in a zoological (cage) trap
03:38:35 asciilifeform: it bloodied its nose against the cage for 20 min. or so, then gave up
03:39:16 decimation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE1alBZ-qXI < there's a whole youtube genre of X vs. Y animal
03:39:17 assbot: Brown Recluse vs Wolf Spider Who will win - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdwOYI )
03:39:51 asciilifeform: obligatory:
03:39:52 asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur9fbRz4GxE
03:39:54 assbot: Великая битва слона с китом.avi - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdwSaX )
03:40:03 mircea_popescu: "superman beetle vs flash spider"
03:41:35 decimation: http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/hearing/hearing-ukraine-under-siege nuland vs ukraine
03:41:36 assbot: Hearing: Ukraine Under Siege | House Committee on Foreign Affairs - Ed Royce, Chairman ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdxddG )
03:41:36 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043399 << eh dun worry, tis not about you.
03:41:36 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:36:47; jurov: i'm trying to make do under some constraints, which i explained several time here
03:41:38 mircea_popescu: you're doin; fine.
03:43:50 mircea_popescu: well anyway, see y'all tomorro
03:48:43 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> it bloodied its nose against the cage for 20 min. or so, then gave up << They tend to do that. Catch a good number with bad intentions towards the garden that way.
03:49:11 BingoBoingo: Strictly catch and release though.
03:51:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4850 @ 0.00041387 = 2.0073 BTC [+]
03:54:09 BingoBoingo: Granted it normally takes the better part of a salad to make the cage traps enticing to groundhogs
03:55:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5418 @ 0.00041576 = 2.2526 BTC [+] {2}
03:57:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 435 @ 0.0125 = 5.4375 BTC [+]
04:01:22 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 228 @ 0.0381 = 8.6868 BTC [-]
04:14:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13500 @ 0.00041129 = 5.5524 BTC [-] {2}
04:22:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17007 @ 0.00040558 = 6.8977 BTC [-] {2}
04:35:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12250 @ 0.00041851 = 5.1267 BTC [+]
04:52:57 []bot: Bet placed: 10 BTC for No on "The Winkdex: BTC $5000 or more in 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1104/ Odds: 12(Y):88(N) by coin, 12(Y):88(N) by weight. Total bet: 83.1718 BTC. Current weight: 84,321.
04:56:51 asciilifeform: can we get scoopbot on the therealbitcoin list ?
04:57:26 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-March/000057.html http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-March/000058.html << congrats mod6
04:57:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DRhW0E )
04:57:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DRhWha )
04:57:33 *: asciilifeform hasn't tested yet
05:00:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.00041679 = 2.2507 BTC [-]
05:01:22 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i drove the hog to the forest & turned it loose there. found it interesting how the beast had to be shaken out of the trap, wouldn't simply leave on its own
05:03:27 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They tend to do that. Amazing though on the other side how over time it takes increasing enticements to get them trapped in the first place.
05:03:27 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
05:05:22 mod6: thanks asciilifeform :]
05:06:07 mod6: let me know how it goes. my full-sync test with the static bin is up to height=273236 currently.
05:06:21 mod6: i'll check back in tomorrow.
05:06:56 asciilifeform: i confess that i can't bring myself to run the thing that eats infinite memory, any more
05:07:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15900 @ 0.00041899 = 6.6619 BTC [+] {3}
05:07:36 mod6: i understand. i think the first objective will be to resolve that issue once we get the milestone "release" bundled up.
05:07:55 mod6: then that'll be another version bump & release in itself.
05:08:49 mod6: ok, im off for a bit. night #b-a!
05:18:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27910 @ 0.0004059 = 11.3287 BTC [-] {4}
05:39:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8300 @ 0.00040004 = 3.3203 BTC [-]
05:48:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17861 @ 0.00039583 = 7.0699 BTC [-] {3}
07:22:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9419 @ 0.00039861 = 3.7545 BTC [+]
07:44:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8650 @ 0.00039594 = 3.4249 BTC [-]
08:06:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16700 @ 0.00039594 = 6.6122 BTC [-]
08:14:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5350 @ 0.00039309 = 2.103 BTC [-]
08:19:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 88 @ 0.03401 = 2.9929 BTC [+]
08:21:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5300 @ 0.00039309 = 2.0834 BTC [-]
08:23:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4548 @ 0.00038978 = 1.7727 BTC [-] {2}
09:00:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19621 @ 0.00040252 = 7.8978 BTC [+] {2}
09:21:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11906 @ 0.00040472 = 4.8186 BTC [+]
09:22:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7494 @ 0.00040472 = 3.033 BTC [+]
09:33:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9538 @ 0.00040264 = 3.8404 BTC [-] {2}
09:55:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16450 @ 0.00040599 = 6.6785 BTC [+] {3}
10:15:30 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 425 @ 0.00474189 = 2.0153 BTC [-] {7}
10:16:31 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 243 @ 0.00474063 = 1.152 BTC [-] {6}
10:35:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20380 @ 0.00039375 = 8.0246 BTC [-] {2}
10:46:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.0004039 = 5.493 BTC [+]
10:55:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11850 @ 0.00039375 = 4.6659 BTC [-]
11:00:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.00040778 = 8.2372 BTC [+] {3}
11:20:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17900 @ 0.00039375 = 7.0481 BTC [-]
11:38:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12477 @ 0.00038844 = 4.8466 BTC [-] {3}
11:44:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24788 @ 0.00037813 = 9.3731 BTC [-] {3}
12:03:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26450 @ 0.00037186 = 9.8357 BTC [-] {2}
12:11:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00036667 = 5.7934 BTC [-] {4}
12:13:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12550 @ 0.0003589 = 4.5042 BTC [-]
12:32:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15972 @ 0.00038039 = 6.0756 BTC [+] {3}
12:36:00 assbot: malvina reynolds - little boxes - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1aPW26Q )
12:40:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29097 @ 0.00038699 = 11.2602 BTC [+] {2}
13:27:58 danielpbarron: height=253958 vs height=200309 (usb3: height=234842)
13:28:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20537 @ 0.00040221 = 8.2602 BTC [+] {2}
13:38:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00038094 = 6.7426 BTC [-] {2}
14:00:51 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/17XXGle )
14:08:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17171 @ 0.00037164 = 6.3814 BTC [-]
14:15:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3650 @ 0.00037067 = 1.3529 BTC [-]
14:27:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8874 @ 0.00037067 = 3.2893 BTC [-]
14:31:14 mod6: up to height=288287 (static build)
14:35:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40477 @ 0.00037164 = 15.0429 BTC [+]
14:37:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6200 @ 0.00036961 = 2.2916 BTC [-] {2}
14:40:56 PeterL: does therealbitcoin list have an rss feed?
14:46:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5514 @ 0.00036719 = 2.0247 BTC [-]
14:54:55 jurov: no
14:55:08 jurov: just register as recipient?
15:01:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12880 @ 0.00036578 = 4.7112 BTC [-]
15:05:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8720 @ 0.00036578 = 3.1896 BTC [-]
15:18:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15300 @ 0.00036386 = 5.5671 BTC [-] {2}
15:27:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33900 @ 0.00036474 = 12.3647 BTC [+] {3}
15:28:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3800 @ 0.0003605 = 1.3699 BTC [-]
15:35:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6784 @ 0.00035904 = 2.4357 BTC [-] {2}
15:40:03 davout: this kind of stuff will probably happen more and more
15:42:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5918 @ 0.00037164 = 2.1994 BTC [+]
15:58:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15050 @ 0.00039092 = 5.8833 BTC [+]
16:01:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37750 @ 0.00040972 = 15.4669 BTC [+] {4}
16:30:01 jurov: ^ heh these utorrent forums. "account suspended"
16:31:33 nubbins`: chetty it amazes me that people still carry non-wiped devices over int'l borders
16:32:06 nubbins`: FWIW canada customs have consistently provided me with the least-pleasant border crossing experiences of any agency
16:33:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11300 @ 0.00041394 = 4.6775 BTC [+]
16:40:14 chetty: only safe place is inside your head, for now
16:42:34 chetty: although I have crossed boarders in last year a few times with no problems, I am always ready
16:44:17 PeterL: you made renters angry?
16:47:44 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/03/crapware-still-bundles-mining-software/
16:48:42 chetty: and I can't type either :/
16:54:35 danielpbarron: "Noticed the laptop was 'laggy' and then I saw the mysterious E in the taskbar. Blamed the kids again but then I saw the Utorrent update comments and bingo, me too," Ian notes. << people with children are pirating movies?
16:55:26 PeterL: why would people with children be different?
16:57:03 *: danielpbarron shrugs
17:17:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15500 @ 0.00041633 = 6.4531 BTC [+] {2}
17:34:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22000 @ 0.00041863 = 9.2099 BTC [+] {5}
17:42:12 thestringpuller: dead as fuck in here today
17:42:58 PeterL: no kidding
17:43:28 PeterL: deader, unless you are a necrophile
17:44:40 thestringpuller: Everyone has meatspace things to do!
17:51:59 asciilifeform: re: border searches - interestingly, if your cargo doesn't look like consumer electronics, the inspectors tend to ignore it (granted that it doesn't pattern-match 't3rr0r1s7!!!111')
17:52:34 PeterL: example?
17:53:25 asciilifeform: PeterL: when i went to mircea_popescu's conference-2, had an attache of rng samples, which nobody at any of the borders was interested in so much as opening much less demanding to know how to plug them in
17:54:10 asciilifeform: i found this odd enough to still wonder why
17:54:38 mike_c: they didn't want to make you suspicious so you wouldn't see the people following you.
17:54:45 asciilifeform: might have to do with 'lottery' system for inspections
17:54:48 PeterL: if you had one in your pocket instead of in case, would they have been interested by it?
17:55:33 asciilifeform: generally you have to 'win' the 'lottery' to get the full-bore arse search
18:01:11 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by PeterL: http://qntra.net/2015/03/summary-of-mpex-stocks-and-funds-february-2015/
18:04:38 danielpbarron: PeterL, something's not right with the beginning of the MiniGame paragraph
18:05:00 PeterL: BingoBoingo: the link for s.mg is not closed, could you fix?
18:05:32 PeterL: just needs a >S.MG</a> in there
18:07:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00041389 = 2.3178 BTC [-]
18:08:06 BingoBoingo: fxd
18:15:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13037 @ 0.00042204 = 5.5021 BTC [+]
18:18:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14633 @ 0.00042212 = 6.1769 BTC [+] {2}
18:24:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45300 @ 0.0004136 = 18.7361 BTC [-] {2}
18:25:03 trinque: asciilifeform: average border guard probably says 1) is he brown? 2) did any of our HYPER ADVANCED detectors smell bomb? 3) is he flagged for harassment 4) does he look afraid
18:25:39 trinque: I have a family member that's tagged for harassment at the border for political involvement in the 70s
18:38:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00041996 = 7.3493 BTC [+] {3}
18:45:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9104 @ 0.00042301 = 3.8511 BTC [+] {2}
19:02:36 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.epicscale.com << the spamatronic 'cpu broker' used in the crapware described in recent qntra piece
19:02:37 assbot: Epic Scale ... ( http://bit.ly/1G7qOl8 )
19:02:45 asciilifeform: worth a mention somewhere?
19:03:26 asciilifeform: this one has a 'charity' flavour
19:03:35 asciilifeform: 'join our botnet voluntarily, save orphans!'
19:04:16 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Possibly. Mentioned by name in the linked TorrentFreak piece.
19:05:29 asciilifeform: aha
19:05:38 asciilifeform: but the sheer lameness, worth a discussion
19:06:01 asciilifeform: evidently they ran short of chumps dumb enough to install the thing voluntarily
19:06:14 asciilifeform: and had to try something new
19:07:28 BingoBoingo: There's been a number of these things. This was actually one of the business's "CoinLab" explored
19:10:48 BingoBoingo: The proposed a guarenteed payment pool for GPU miners where once ASICs arrived the GPUs would be aimed at other computing tasks
19:12:05 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: this type of chumpatron has a name, though i'm blanking on what it was
19:12:47 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: sometimes discussed in historical chumpatronics literature, re: schemes to 'invest in xxxx, and once it tanks, we'll buy it up for firewood we promise'
19:13:04 BingoBoingo: Ah
19:15:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3306 @ 0.00042314 = 1.3989 BTC [+]
19:15:26 mats: AAPL joins DJI
19:15:48 mats: replacing AT&T
19:40:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21600 @ 0.00042687 = 9.2204 BTC [+] {2}
19:47:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26349 @ 0.0004315 = 11.3696 BTC [+]
19:57:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10648 @ 0.00043451 = 4.6267 BTC [+]
20:02:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31100 @ 0.00040436 = 12.5756 BTC [-] {4}
20:28:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13500 @ 0.00039942 = 5.3922 BTC [-] {2}
20:31:17 PeterL: Trying to find a good link for this, http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/02/16/atf-trying-to-ban-ar15-ammo-under-guise-of-law-enforcement-safety-n1957622
20:31:18 assbot: ATF Trying to Ban AR-15 Ammo Under Guise of "Law Enforcement Safety" - Katie Pavlich ... ( http://bit.ly/1KyOxBe )
20:31:56 PeterL: maybe asciilifeform 's desire to make bullet in jungle conditions is more urgent than we thought?
20:33:07 asciilifeform: PeterL: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-02-2015#1034504 << original thread here
20:33:07 assbot: Logged on 26-02-2015 17:54:22; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it was clear to anyone who gives a fuck that usg would target ammunition, rather than small arms per se, when it 'gets serious'
20:33:50 PeterL: Apparently the government has started changing the rules, then asking for public comment (which they then ignore)
20:34:20 asciilifeform: PeterL: small nuance here, also. the 'jungle shells' don't have to actually be made to work, in a sense. think about how the 'gavin fork' thing, which died - or at least went into hibernation - merely from knowing that response is ready
20:34:26 asciilifeform: sorta like the logic of nuke war
20:34:32 chetty: they even ignore the courts, why bother with the silly 'public'
20:35:09 trinque: I don't see how national-scale weapons control could be implemented in the US
20:35:22 trinque: they can try; there are hordes of rednecks in the woods already stocked up for armageddon
20:35:25 asciilifeform: trinque: it mostly was in '68
20:35:50 chetty: walk softly and carry a big stick won't ever change, at least not the big stick part :)
20:36:14 trinque: asciilifeform: I think people who never leave cities tend to forget how much weaponry is just outside
20:36:23 trinque: and people who actually know how to use them
20:36:51 asciilifeform: the 'hordes' are dealt with in the same way as anarchists 100 years ago - moles, stoolies, provocateurs, and, if these fail, massed attack with costly 20th c. armour/aviation
20:37:23 asciilifeform: (today's substitute for the maxim gun of the pinkertons, you could say)
20:38:28 asciilifeform: if there were a 'rural militia' with above room-temperature iq, usa would already look like iraq
20:38:36 asciilifeform: it doesn't. ergo, there isn't.
20:38:53 danielpbarron: perhaps it'll be like with legal weed -- permitted to do bitcoin, or permitted to own a gun. choose one.
20:39:05 asciilifeform: wai wat
20:39:23 trinque: asciilifeform: I don't think things have gotten bad enough yet for them, the rednecks
20:40:20 chetty: yeah, need the bubba effect to kick in
20:40:44 trinque: I could see someone clever turning them into a far-right movement of some kind
20:41:07 trinque: invoke the "end times", etc
20:41:27 asciilifeform: trinque: as i understand, this isn't ru circa 1917, the hypothetical rebels don't 'just want to be left alone' - not one in ten thousand is able to grow anything edible without regular deliveries of petrol, pesticides, etc.
20:41:39 chetty: right? left? too the moon might as well be. right and left don't make sense anymore
20:41:48 asciilifeform: washington doesn't need to 'waco' them - just to stop sending the trucks (command economy, recall?)
20:42:12 asciilifeform: what's more, the would-be mutineers mostly know this.
20:42:42 trinque: asciilifeform: how collapsed are we considering?
20:42:44 asciilifeform: when they go to the forest and blast away at bull's eyes, it's really a psychological release
20:42:54 trinque: enough for pieces of the military to break off and start fighting for texas?
20:43:01 asciilifeform: trinque: usa is what anthropologists call a 'palace economy'
20:43:18 asciilifeform: what are the folks 'fighting for texas' eating?
20:43:26 trinque: mexicans?
20:43:29 trinque: lol, just kidding
20:43:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15425 @ 0.00041173 = 6.3509 BTC [+] {3}
20:44:32 bitstein: asciilifeform: bbq of course, http://franklinbarbecue.com/
20:44:34 assbot: Franklin Barbecue ... ( http://bit.ly/1A4Qqvp )
20:44:52 trinque: bitstein: austin resident?
20:45:11 asciilifeform: is this roughly analogous to marie antoinette's cake ?
20:45:18 bitstein: trinque: yep
20:45:32 trinque: bitstein: nice! I lived there for years, grew up in houston
20:46:24 danielpbarron: I once visited a false church community in waco, tx (no relation to that other thing) and they seemed capable of sustaining themselves independent of any supply lines. But maybe all the ground tilling was just for show -- I didn't stay there year-round; just for a week for their "harvest festival"
20:46:50 trinque: danielpbarron: my parents have a farm that produces far in surplus of what they need
20:47:00 trinque: the problem being the neighbors of course, in such a situation
20:47:22 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: 100% closed cycle? no one taking modern pharma products of any kind? no electrical devices ? lit with candles, made of animal fat ? etc
20:47:34 danielpbarron: a lot of them had iPhones
20:49:01 PeterL: danielpbarron: I imagine they have to import metal to make their farm implements, or are they doing mining and refining too?
20:49:10 danielpbarron: and come to think of it, a lot of their industry was exporting to outsiders. things like "hand made whatever"
20:49:20 trinque: PeterL: you don't need infinite amounts of tools, once you have them
20:49:23 trinque: and enough spare parts
20:49:39 PeterL: but tools do not last forever
20:50:13 trinque: this idea that people cannot possibly survive without vast supply chains is pretty new...
20:50:36 danielpbarron: i still have those gloves and hat. not gonna say it isn't high quality.
20:50:42 trinque: I mean if we're headed back to the stone age, might as well eat a bullet in that situation
20:51:31 trinque: asciilifeform: were all (former) Soviets growing their own food?
20:51:38 trinque: I'd expect they were living off the state's teat mostly
20:51:42 trinque: but could be way off
20:51:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-11-2013#393769
20:51:56 assbot: Logged on 26-11-2013 17:41:46; asciilifeform: "There's a shift in people's thinking as essential items become scarce. They believe that... hoarders created the shortage... if someone can establish such a link between the crisis and you, you have a problem.'
20:52:18 trinque: of course, yet what, 5% population decline, maybe 10?
20:52:27 asciilifeform: trinque: accurate data is hard to come by, but at one point something like 80% of the calories consumed came from amateur gardens
20:53:05 trinque: asciilifeform: I would want to know whether that was mostly a reaction after collapse, or something which people had in advance
20:53:07 asciilifeform: trinque: try to remember the substantial differences between the two empires
20:53:16 trinque: actually "in advance" would make sense if there were ongoing shortages
20:53:22 asciilifeform: no one in ussr could be evicted from their income suddenly zeroing;
20:53:33 asciilifeform: major cities did not have populations of orcs ready to riot and burn;
20:53:45 asciilifeform: the heat - mostly stayed on; etc
20:53:54 trinque: that sounds like surviving 3 weeks in the woods at most though
20:54:04 trinque: pick a spot far enough that no one hungry is going to wander there on foot
20:54:13 trinque: let the cities burn themselves out
20:54:16 asciilifeform: and live there for the rest of your life ?
20:54:32 asciilifeform: you're still thinking in terms of temporary disruptions in 'business as usual'
20:54:51 PeterL: wait out collapse, then return to scrounge resources from ruins?
20:55:01 asciilifeform: even in a very optimistic scenario like ussr, the disappearance of 'business as usual' could last for decades.
20:55:29 asciilifeform: PeterL: only in hollywood films do burned out husks of cities contain anything you would like to pick up - vs. corpses and unexploded ordnance
20:56:08 trinque: asciilifeform: I don't mean that I'd return to the city 3wks later
20:56:09 PeterL: I was just trying to finish trinque's idea of hiding in the woods for 3 weeks
20:56:09 danielpbarron: is it foolish to assume that I can bribe my way out of catastrophe?
20:56:23 PeterL: danielpbarron: yes
20:56:23 trinque: I mean the cities wont be a risk to the rural areas after some period of starvation
20:56:30 asciilifeform: somehow everybody (at least every adult male) thinks that he's the clever bugger who will notice the things everyone else has overlooked, survive catastrophes that put the rest of the area to bed for good, etc.
20:56:52 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it isn't foolish, but the time to do so is strictly -before-
20:56:57 asciilifeform: when the planes are still flying
20:57:00 trinque: asciilifeform: well you at least fight back as the knife's plunged in
20:57:27 danielpbarron: i don't think i'll be rich enough to bribe my way out until -after- it begins
20:57:51 asciilifeform: trinque: i'm specifically addressing the fantasies of 'survive' rather than 'die with honour' (there'll be death of every kind available to all-comers, then)
20:57:55 trinque: danielpbarron: someone will just beat the private keys out of you
20:58:09 trinque: asciilifeform: ah, I agree that I'm probably dead
20:58:18 trinque: this is more a question of what to do until then
20:59:14 trinque: no worse than the situation was before though, right?
20:59:25 trinque: I'm as good as dead no matter what I'm doing, given a long enough timeline
20:59:56 trinque: but, one will still try to increase his chances even as lowered into the oil
21:00:46 danielpbarron: i'm probably in the *worst* place to be when this stuff goes down, although asciilifeform's locale doesn't sound very pleasant either
21:00:46 PeterL: asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it isn't foolish, but the time to do so is strictly -before- << surviving is dependent on having useful skills and wot connections to others with skills, the time to gain these is also strictly -before-
21:02:51 asciilifeform: iirc we spoke re: the sewer pumps here at least once
21:03:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-06-2014#735017
21:03:56 assbot: Logged on 27-06-2014 04:19:50; asciilifeform: speaking of sewage, i recently had occasion to learn the details behind herr orlov's assertion that usa minus mains current will drown in own shit
21:03:58 asciilifeform: ^ thread
21:06:18 cazalla: danielpbarron, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2015#1044264 <<< i've managed to watch maybe 2-3 movies from start to end since son was born.. maybe the guy's kids are older but that just seems to take even more free time away
21:06:18 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 16:54:35; danielpbarron: "Noticed the laptop was 'laggy' and then I saw the mysterious E in the taskbar. Blamed the kids again but then I saw the Utorrent update comments and bingo, me too," Ian notes. << people with children are pirating movies?
21:10:10 cazalla: the majority of movies are shit anyway so even if i had the time to watch them on the reg, they are not even worth pirating
21:18:18 trinque: asciilifeform: I'd think there's enough talent right here to escape a gravity well
21:19:30 asciilifeform: trinque: escape from gravity well is the most personal matter imaginable
21:19:39 asciilifeform: trinque: something each of us must solve entirely on his own
21:19:55 trinque: that seems foolish, though sure, I'm making my own moves aside from derping here
21:20:04 trinque: a big, profitable company would hurt how?
21:20:31 asciilifeform: trinque: there's a reason i used rocketry as the analogy
21:21:20 asciilifeform: getting just one person (not even talking about family, friends, pets, possessions, etc) permanently out of not only usa but the nato financial octopus - is probably more expensive than launching it into orbit
21:21:39 asciilifeform: if you -actually- tally up the costs, realistically
21:22:04 asciilifeform: and i am specifically not speaking of mircea_popescu's favourite 'rescue animals', young gurlz
21:22:10 trinque: lol
21:22:14 asciilifeform: speaking of everything -else-
21:22:28 asciilifeform: other lifeforms that don't have a zoo ready to house them gratis
21:23:11 jurov: what is "nato financial octopus"?
21:23:47 asciilifeform: jurov: the loose set of all banks that play ball with usg, all locales where there isn't an icbm battery between you and usg, etc
21:24:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00039383 = 9.0975 BTC [-] {3}
21:24:35 cazalla: BingoBoingo, maybe should've saved the utorrent forum complaints.. forum offline now lol
21:25:02 asciilifeform: trinque: the hypothetical 'mutual assistance' org you suggest would roughly resolve to a 'society for let's we all get filthy rich, and not warren-buffet-usg-rich either, but mircea_popescu-rich'
21:25:05 BingoBoingo: cazalla: I missed that window
21:25:09 asciilifeform: which is generally not how it works.
21:25:41 trinque: well not mutual assistance and not an org
21:25:45 asciilifeform: anyone who offers to 'help you get rich' in specifically these terms is either a imbecile or sc4mz0r
21:25:56 trinque: for example if there was a tiny rasp-pi sized lisp machine, I think that'd be sellable
21:26:06 trinque: I don't want help; I have my own businesses
21:26:22 trinque: point being that no matter what's going on in the world at large, there are products to sell
21:26:24 asciilifeform: trinque: a pocket-sized fission power plant would also be 'sellable'
21:26:27 trinque: asciilifeform: your cardano, perfect example
21:26:51 trinque: asciilifeform: sure but that's hyperbolic compared to "I can attach this to a printer, card scanner, whatever, and it does what it is told"
21:27:16 asciilifeform: trinque: if you don't understand that this costs ~$trillion and requires a sovereign country in your pocket, you have not thought the matter through.
21:27:52 asciilifeform: i might exaggerate slightly, but at any rate it won't be accomplished by a fella with a day job.
21:28:11 trinque: asciilifeform: sure; yet I think people forget millions can be made owning a chain of car washes
21:28:16 trinque: geniuses especially
21:28:30 asciilifeform: trinque: 'millions can be made' doing nothing but snorting coke
21:28:34 asciilifeform: if you're a u.s. blue-blood
21:31:31 trinque: ehhh, you can still start businesses in the US
21:31:34 trinque: you just have to be willing to starve
21:31:58 trinque: and/or to lower yourself a bit
21:32:22 trinque: plenty of retards out there owning strip clubs, parking garages, snow plow companies
21:32:56 trinque: and also in particular, astoundingly shitty software companies that can be bested without much effort
21:35:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.0003986 = 6.3776 BTC [+] {2}
21:36:03 trinque: along those lines I am really starting to consider moving back to TX
21:36:20 trinque: no state income tax, cheap-as-hell rent
21:36:30 trinque: *booming* economy
21:52:27 asciilifeform: trinque: i'll be the last to disagree that it's still possible, today, to squeeze out a 'living' doing something in usa. question is how long it will remain true, for one's particular profession, for particular locale (do you like drilling for oil?), etc
21:54:24 asciilifeform: trinque: also understand that even if you get 'usa-rich' it does not automatically translate to freeworld-rich.
21:54:51 asciilifeform: (see the numerous old 'exit tax' threads here and elsewhere)
21:56:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2015/a-sjsqd-walks-into-a-pub/#comment-112528
21:56:59 assbot: A sjsqd walks into a pub... pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg2Fbg )
22:00:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i like PeterL's suggestion
22:00:16 mircea_popescu: it's not bad.
22:00:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: though i still insist that 'red' cryptomaterial should not touch the networked box
22:00:47 asciilifeform: that is, the extant wallet&node combo kitchen-toilet is pure lunacy
22:01:58 mircea_popescu: surely.
22:02:23 mircea_popescu: ideally you want exactly what ben_vulpes was proposing : a node server with a wallet client
22:02:45 asciilifeform: every node is already a 'wallet client'
22:02:47 mircea_popescu: but even admitting this were done correctly, the problem still remains of what txn the client should order broadcast.
22:02:56 asciilifeform: (in that it can swallow a tx if fed)
22:03:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kinda how sane people use this : wallet on a system behind a node system in a nat.
22:03:24 mircea_popescu: !up sjsqd
22:03:47 sjsqd: hi
22:03:57 mircea_popescu: hello.
22:04:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6085 @ 0.00039974 = 2.4324 BTC [+]
22:04:07 sjsqd: was trying to sign up for your site but it forwards to a blank page
22:04:28 mircea_popescu: what exactly did you do ?
22:04:28 sjsqd: otherwise still also trying to read through 6 months of IRC logs haha
22:04:36 sjsqd: put in my email and 10,000 credits and pressed submit
22:05:12 mircea_popescu: hm. that's odd, it shouldn't do that.
22:05:19 sjsqd: the page that shows as being blank = http://trilema.com/wp-content/themes/trilema/trilema_credits.php
22:05:20 assbot: Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg469E )
22:09:42 mircea_popescu: do you have redirects disabled maybe ?
22:09:53 mircea_popescu: also, make sure you typed the email address correctly.
22:10:51 mircea_popescu: $ curl -IL http://trilema.com/wp-content/themes/trilema/trilema_credits.php | more
22:10:52 assbot: Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg4YuM )
22:10:52 mircea_popescu: HTTP/1.1 302 Moved Temporarily
22:10:52 mircea_popescu: Location: http://trilema.com
22:10:52 assbot: Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg4XqR )
22:11:15 sjsqd: email address is correct
22:11:27 sjsqd: and I don't think I have redirects disabled
22:15:55 sjsqd: I tried a few different options on my computer but got the same result
22:16:17 mircea_popescu: ahahaha you found a bug
22:16:35 mircea_popescu: if you fill in with something other than 10k or with nothing at all it works.
22:16:42 mircea_popescu: if however you explicitly specify the default...
22:16:43 mircea_popescu: lmao
22:17:09 sjsqd: haha
22:18:39 sjsqd: I'm pretty sure I tried another figure but yes you're correct it works now
22:26:57 mircea_popescu: sjsqd also, get in the wot.
22:27:14 sjsqd: yes I will I briefly read about it earlier
22:27:48 sjsqd: I've just had quite a few things on at the moment, otherwise I would be a bit more active
22:27:59 sjsqd: but I do find this channel and the websites/sources surrounding it interesting
22:31:01 mircea_popescu: !up airgapped
22:32:20 airgapped: mircea_popescu: thanks
22:32:46 assbot: Building Bitcoin node on Raspberry Pi 2 | Airgapped ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg7L7e )
22:32:50 mircea_popescu: sure.
22:33:19 airgapped: ^ including for reference, may be usefull for someone
22:34:25 mircea_popescu: i don't recall why we didn't like the pi for this purpoise, but it's in teh logs.
22:34:42 trinque: paging asciilifeform
22:35:12 airgapped: this one is new, more RAM, so far rock solid
22:35:51 mircea_popescu: how much ram does it have now ? 4g ?
22:36:00 airgapped: 1g
22:36:05 danielpbarron: looks like it's just more expensive
22:36:11 trinque: mystery binary blob drivers are required to run the thing
22:36:14 danielpbarron: the pogo is < 20 USD
22:36:31 airgapped: working on pogo as we speak
22:36:40 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron more a case of "there's all these people who got pis because excitement, now have nothing to use them for", i thought,
22:36:49 mircea_popescu: so in that sense, it costs zero.
22:37:11 airgapped: yes, the blob is there
22:37:25 mircea_popescu: yeah, that's what it was.
22:37:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 46 @ 0.03400002 = 1.564 BTC [-] {2}
22:37:53 danielpbarron: airgapped, you might be intrested in this -> http://danielpbarron.com/pogo/howto.txt
22:37:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg8sxe )
22:37:55 airgapped: so for me this is also temp solution
22:37:58 mircea_popescu: the pi is currently being worked on as a first example of a fully fits in head machine.
22:38:11 mircea_popescu: sorry i mean the pogo not the pi
22:38:16 airgapped: thanks will look at it
22:38:30 danielpbarron: still a work in progress, see also the root directory of that file
22:38:44 airgapped: also on my desk VoCore
22:38:53 airgapped: next in line
22:39:30 mircea_popescu: airgapped you should prolly get in the wot while at it.
22:39:43 airgapped: danielpbarron: nice, mised it in the logs
22:39:51 cazalla: ;;later tell bingoboingo enjoy :) i didn't end up drinking last night so no issues there
22:39:51 gribble: The operation succeeded.
22:40:01 airgapped: I'm in the wot
22:40:28 danielpbarron: airgapped, the WoT forked
22:40:51 mircea_popescu: !gettrust airgapped
22:40:51 assbot: airgapped is not registered in WoT.
22:41:09 airgapped: OK, so I need some help
22:41:09 mircea_popescu: <airgapped> I'm in the wot < since when ?
22:41:33 airgapped: registered few days ago
22:41:37 mircea_popescu: airgapped http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/assbot <
22:41:38 assbot: irc_bots:assbot [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg8Xrk )
22:41:41 danielpbarron: he did it the gribble way
22:42:03 mircea_popescu: if you were in gribble pre 2015, you were imported. otherwise, gotta reg your key with assbot.
22:42:39 airgapped: have registered it with gribble
22:42:51 airgapped: should do the same with assbot?
22:43:02 mircea_popescu: so then it's halfa minute. yeah, see the link for commands.
22:43:16 airgapped: thanks, will do
22:44:10 pete_dushenski: purim scoop: http://www.contravex.com/2015/03/06/signing-a-shoe-is-the-same-as-signing-the-papers/
22:44:11 assbot: Signing a shoe is the same as signing the papers. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg9mKe )
22:47:24 airgapped: !register 178BF6EEA4C3A737F70878AC5E40172FEBBA0713
22:47:24 assbot: Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: 178BF6EEA4C3A737F70878AC5E40172FEBBA0713. This may take a few moments.
22:47:24 assbot: Key EBBA0713 / "airgapped <airgapped@countermail.com>" successfully imported.
22:47:24 assbot: Registration successful.
22:47:38 pete_dushenski: eh wd.
22:48:51 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 27 @ 0.03753703 = 1.0135 BTC [+] {2}
22:48:53 pete_dushenski: airgapped i'm guessing https://twitter.com/airgapped is you ?
22:48:55 assbot: Airgapped (@airgapped) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg9REh )
22:50:02 airgapped: pete_dushenski: yes
22:50:43 danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.airgapped.1:b3f7991004a4bbbbd349279c39bb1e5431f940bcc8e103b36d37d3d83b3ae7f6
22:50:43 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for airgapped with note: Working on the pogo thing.
22:50:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7008 @ 0.00039911 = 2.797 BTC [-]
22:51:18 airgapped: danielpbarron: thanks
22:51:20 pete_dushenski: airgapped cool.
22:51:36 pete_dushenski: airgapped so what's your background ?
22:51:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17100 @ 0.00040988 = 7.0089 BTC [+] {4}
22:52:13 airgapped: embedded, crypto
22:53:42 pete_dushenski: crypto i get, but what's 'embedded' ?
22:54:07 airgapped: embedded microcontrolers
22:54:20 airgapped: ARM based mostly
22:56:15 mircea_popescu: !rate airgapped 1 New blood
22:56:15 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/48cd0483320774d1
22:56:20 pete_dushenski: ah neat.
22:56:39 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.airgapped.1:9fdc995fb92b89f46ae90459ad60e2b6c87f4627292744d93d9e0c7c8f3f0be7
22:56:39 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for airgapped with note: New blood
22:57:00 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell peterl since you asked : http://trilema.com/2015/fderp-janyary-february-2015-combined-statement/
22:57:00 assbot: F.DERP Janyary - February 2015 Combined Statement pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BgaYUc )
22:57:00 gribble: The operation succeeded.
22:57:28 mike_c: heh, i kind of like that better. "janyary"
22:57:50 pete_dushenski: airgapped so are you working in the field currently ? or is this more of a hobby of yours ?
22:58:33 jurov: <mircea_popescu> i don't recall why we didn't like the pi for this purpois << alf proclaimed it as depending on binary turd (that supposedly leaks key material by any channel conceivable), thus unworthy
22:59:32 jurov: oh and mircea_popescu withdrawals pls
22:59:43 airgapped: pete_dushenski: working, I specialize in "secure" microcontrolers
23:00:47 pete_dushenski: is there such a thing as 'secure' arm ?
23:01:00 pete_dushenski: i'm under the impression, though hardly an expert, that there isn't.
23:06:11 pete_dushenski: http://qntra.net/2015/03/14-bidders-34-bids-in-latest-usms-bitcoin-auction/#comment-13004 << first i've heard of 'coin'
23:06:11 assbot: 14 Bidders 34 Bids In Latest USMS Bitcoin Auction | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1GrQ7lA )
23:08:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8700 @ 0.00041098 = 3.5755 BTC [+]
23:09:05 mike_c: you just haven't heard the name. it's the winklevii etf.
23:10:56 pete_dushenski: o that's right.
23:11:06 pete_dushenski: lol kinda even funnier now
23:11:10 mike_c: yeah :)
23:11:17 pete_dushenski: i thought it was some white-list or something
23:11:24 pete_dushenski: or other 2.0 thing
23:15:37 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2015#1044120 << burn baby burn.
23:15:37 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 03:30:18; mircea_popescu: and that is, joining the wot early, and helping set the world on fire. it. strictly it.
23:16:09 scoopbot: New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/fderp-janyary-february-2015-combined-statement/
23:16:14 thestringpuller: its a canadian eh?
23:17:13 pete_dushenski: lol hey man.
23:17:33 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2015#1044256 << this is no surprise, people watch tv, eat at mcd's, etc.
23:17:33 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 16:31:33; nubbins`: chetty it amazes me that people still carry non-wiped devices over int'l borders
23:17:39 pete_dushenski: 'people'
23:19:39 jurov: well... if i wasn't on this chan, i'd easily ended up carrying any to/from canada
23:20:19 jurov: wiping both my ntb and phone would appear completely insane to me
23:20:28 kakobrekla: if you werent on this chan you could actually carry it as well hehe
23:21:17 jurov: wut?
23:21:20 pete_dushenski: are you calling him a fat desk-jockey ?
23:21:35 kakobrekla: well, now you are flagged suspekterorista
23:22:11 danielpbarron: what is to wipe on a phone that they don't already have? It's not like my keys are on the thing
23:22:38 pete_dushenski: pictures of yourself ripping bongs ?
23:23:24 danielpbarron: is that incriminating? could be anything in that bong!
23:23:45 danielpbarron: also, they already have those pictures, presumably
23:23:48 pete_dushenski: i'm pretty sure traveling is incriminating
23:24:19 jurov: but really, do they routinely rummage through photos and documents? and when i have virtualbox on desktop, will they ask me to fire all the vms, too?
23:24:19 pete_dushenski: 'you're going to join isis! i know it!'
23:24:46 pete_dushenski: jurov nah, it's just people getting fussed about the theatre
23:25:13 pete_dushenski: it's obvious that airport security is about as meaningfully useful as curtains on a submarine
23:25:14 danielpbarron: what if i'm caught traveling with my private key ascii armored and printed on a sheet of paper? do they even know well enough to ask for a passphrase?
23:25:15 kakobrekla: at this stage they wont check vms as they are pretending to check if device is real device or real bomb only.
23:25:58 jurov: inb4 virtualized bombs
23:26:21 kakobrekla: its anal rape half way only
23:26:45 kakobrekla: !s enemy half
23:26:46 assbot: 5 results for 'enemy half' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=enemy+half
23:27:04 kakobrekla: its there
23:27:04 danielpbarron: not that it matters, but telling a passphrase should surely be considered "testifying against yourself"
23:30:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5850 @ 0.00039911 = 2.3348 BTC [-]
23:33:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9100 @ 0.00039765 = 3.6186 BTC [-] {2}
23:36:06 asciilifeform: "secure" microcontrolers << ugh
23:36:54 pete_dushenski: my impression as well, if based on your impression ;)
23:37:35 asciilifeform: no srsly, not much special expertise needed to see why this is an Intrinsically Bad Idea (TM)
23:39:35 asciilifeform: if 'secure' but not user-verifiable, the only people against whom it attempts security is: you. the owner.
23:39:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8893 @ 0.00038911 = 3.4604 BTC [-] {3}
23:40:04 pete_dushenski: and are arm inherently not user verifiable ?
23:40:14 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: ic is inherently nonverifiable
23:40:39 asciilifeform: if you own electron microscope and have a couple of years free, and wish to do nothing else - then yes, possibly verifiable.
23:40:47 asciilifeform: doesn't matter if 'arm' or whatever.
23:41:18 asciilifeform: it is absolutely essential, to understand what is being spoken of here, to go back to the thread about the specificity of hardware-diddling.
23:41:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9300 @ 0.0003873 = 3.6019 BTC [-] {2}
23:41:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-02-2015#1024428 and below
23:41:56 assbot: Logged on 19-02-2015 04:39:24; asciilifeform: decimation: a diddled die of 100 gates in a tiled matrix will do what, exactly ?
23:42:12 asciilifeform: for the benefit of n00bs, i will briefly elaborate
23:42:29 asciilifeform: say the enemy is baking custom silicon -just to slip into my supply lines-
23:42:46 asciilifeform: say he can design anything, within reason, just in time
23:42:58 kakobrekla: !up airgapped
23:43:01 asciilifeform: his options depend on what i (think i am) buying
23:43:33 asciilifeform: if i'm buying a general-purpose cpu, and he does not have a precise bitwise knowledge of what i intend to run on it, his options are rather limited
23:43:54 airgapped: kakobrekla: thanks
23:44:06 asciilifeform: though if he can get a real-time covert channel into my unit, he can perhaps accomplish something with a simple 'hidden debug' trick
23:44:21 asciilifeform: if i'm buying 'fpga', and he doesn't have the exact bitstream, he's more or less shit out of luck
23:44:36 asciilifeform: but let's reverse course and suppose that i'm buying a very specific crypto asic
23:44:48 asciilifeform: that, say, cranks 8192-bit rsa.
23:44:50 asciilifeform: and nothing else.
23:45:11 asciilifeform: or, better yet, generates keys for such.
23:45:29 asciilifeform: then the question of what changes he ought to slip into the masks at the fab becomes absolutely trivial
23:45:34 asciilifeform: as in, undergrad-level problem.
23:45:53 asciilifeform: because he is no longer firing at a 'moving target' but a bull's eye, so to speak.
23:46:52 asciilifeform: to make long story short (i am quite uncertain that making it longer will improve the understanding of anyone who does not already grasp the above) -
23:47:07 asciilifeform: if you're buying dedicated 'crypto' silicon, on your own free will - you are a moron;
23:47:17 pete_dushenski: so the more specific the task of the chip, as is moreso the case with arm then general-purpose cpu, the easier it is to attack
23:47:26 asciilifeform: if you're selling it, having understood the above line of reasoning and can offer no meaningful counter - you are a scammer.
23:47:38 asciilifeform: if you are neither of these things, it is still useful to know who is one of these two things.
23:47:51 airgapped: asciilifeform: fully agree secure micro does not exists whatever some may claim
23:48:00 asciilifeform: airgapped: not merely 'not exists'
23:48:05 asciilifeform: is -intrinsic- snake oil
23:48:09 asciilifeform: like perpetuum mobile
23:48:17 asciilifeform: or 'free energy machine' as they tend to be called now
23:48:31 airgapped: yes, you ar eright
23:48:56 asciilifeform: airgapped: and yet you introduced this as your line of work? care to justify ?
23:49:31 asciilifeform: if somebody walks in and 'i drop screaming nuns out of helicopters for their insurance money' there'd better be a good story at least.
23:50:31 airgapped: working with microcontrolers
23:50:53 airgapped: adding crypto blocks/accelerators
23:51:02 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2015#1044590
23:51:02 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 22:59:43; airgapped: pete_dushenski: working, I specialize in "secure" microcontrolers
23:51:31 asciilifeform: airgapped: and it never once occurred to you that it was not an entirely honest line of work ?
23:51:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9682 @ 0.00040821 = 3.9523 BTC [+]
23:52:20 airgapped: yes they call it secure but I fully agree these are just micros with crypto accelertion
23:53:11 airgapped: trully secure processor does not exists
23:53:42 asciilifeform: airgapped: you still appear to be talking about it as something that could exist in essentially the same form pushed by scammers
23:54:13 asciilifeform: rather than an object that -categorically- does not exist, like a box inside which 1 == 2.
23:55:01 airgapped: no I have no illusion that secure processor exists
23:55:48 asciilifeform: airgapped: let's take your word. why, then, do you spend your days working on a problem to which the answer cannot exist ?
23:56:11 airgapped: the only option is airgapped machine and nothing beyod
23:56:35 asciilifeform: ^ doesn't answer my question
23:57:45 airgapped: interest in crypto algorithms and practical implementaitons
23:59:58 airgapped: translating crypto/math into implementaion running on small machines