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Transcript for 06-03-2015, 1214 lines:

00:00:30 mircea_popescu: (aeolipile)

00:01:14 pete_dushenski: "The aeolipile was a hollow sphere mounted so that it could turn on a pair of hollow tubes that provided steam to the sphere from a cauldron. The steam escaped from the sphere from one or more bent tubes projecting from its equator, causing the sphere to revolve. The aeolipile is the first known device to transform steam into rotary motion."

00:01:29 pete_dushenski: well waddya know!

00:01:32 cazalla: got another retweet for the bits for tits fraudsters post.. this time by a bitcoin magazine for women.. ah ha, they don't even read, just retweet

00:02:00 mircea_popescu: lol

00:02:15 cazalla: of course, i'm working on the assumption these are lefties who would be grossly offended at such an idea but you never know..

00:02:23 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/mpif-fmpif-february-2015-statement/

00:02:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23150 @ 0.00040568 = 9.3915 BTC [+] {4}

00:02:32 mircea_popescu: ftr, actual lefties aren't offended at nudity.

00:02:50 adlai: what's this about graphing curves?

00:03:07 mircea_popescu: the weirdo abominable us "lefties", which are really a sort of recycled aunt pollies, yes.

00:03:08 pete_dushenski: adlai greek scytales

00:03:10 *: adlai has been visualizing his way along https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6jTFxQaUJA

00:03:11 assbot: ECCHacks - A gentle introduction to elliptic-curve cryptography [31c3] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1aOq8Yt )

00:03:16 mircea_popescu: but otherwise, a lefty commune more likely to be nude than otherwise.

00:03:29 adlai: sure, i know what scytales are. but 'a variable diameter stick is really a fascinating way of graphing cryptographic curves.' = ?

00:03:55 pete_dushenski: adlai do i misunderstand how scytales work ?

00:03:59 cazalla: mircea_popescu, aren't the us lefties the type of lefties behind bitcoin wimminz day anyway

00:04:18 mircea_popescu: gotta ask 'em, cazalla. whadda i know >D

00:05:44 cazalla: the other leftie type being.. amir/hippy types living in a hovel engaging in drug fuelled orgies?

00:05:51 adlai: pete_dushenski: could be. scytales just rearrange the 'packets' of a message, whereas modern crypto jumbles the data within

00:06:17 pete_dushenski: " the scytale, consisted of a tapered baton around which was spirally wrapped a piece of parchment inscribed with the message. When unwrapped the parchment bore an incomprehensible set of letters, but when wrapped around another baton of identical proportions, the original text reappeared. "

00:07:02 adlai: it just changes the order of the letters

00:07:16 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1042989 < http://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/03/google-seems-to-have-broken-email-forwarding/#comment-160812

00:07:16 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 16:51:02; ben_vulpes: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/03/google-seems-to-have-broken-email-forwarding/ << moar on google breaking the internet

00:07:18 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DQPr2V )

00:07:26 pete_dushenski: adlai being ignorant of the difference between rearranging packets and jumbling, can you expand ?

00:07:35 mircea_popescu: cazalla most of israel was built by lefties.

00:08:02 mircea_popescu: adlai "packets" "data within", what is this, we make up words day ?

00:09:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00040817 = 4.694 BTC [+]

00:11:04 pete_dushenski: also, who needs scoopbot when I'm here anyways : http://www.contravex.com/2015/03/05/the-fashionability-of-being-uncompetitive-because-reasons/

00:11:06 assbot: The fashionability of being uncompetitive. Because Reasons. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1aOrOB6 )

00:11:39 adlai: pete_dushenski: let's say scytale diameter is em/2π, ie the message has six 'rows', and each sextet of letters on the wrapped paper corresponds to a column

00:12:24 adlai: the scytale cipher is equivalent to drawing a long table with six rows (adding columns as needed), and writing out the message to fill the column; then all the letters are jumbled. but the letters remain unchanged

00:12:45 adlai: it leaks information about the message content, even if you don't get the full thing

00:13:05 mircea_popescu: adlai you are making assumptions about the length of the parchment.

00:13:06 jurov: so what. should have used klein bottles or such.

00:13:23 adlai: what assumptions?

00:13:35 mircea_popescu: it could be 2700 stadies for all you know

00:13:59 mircea_popescu: ;;calc .185 * 2700

00:14:00 gribble: 499.5

00:14:07 mircea_popescu: 500km. wow check me out, i can estimate!

00:14:21 pete_dushenski: lol

00:15:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10222 @ 0.00040817 = 4.1723 BTC [+]

00:15:41 pete_dushenski: wait, where's 0.185 from ?

00:15:52 asciilifeform: adlai: the information isn't just hard to attain, it doesn't exist << the bot is not for use! it's a theoretical construction, like carnot cycle

00:16:18 mircea_popescu: there's ~185 meters in a stadion

00:16:49 mircea_popescu: (the thing you folks call stadium in english an' stadion in french :) )

00:17:17 pete_dushenski: o estadio !

00:17:18 asciilifeform: scytales... ecdsa << if this analogy is accurate, woe be unto ecdsa users. you can crack scyrale with a physical contrivance analogous to an engorging cock

00:17:41 pete_dushenski: depends on one's.... capacity

00:17:52 pete_dushenski: not everyone packs a salami for lunch

00:17:53 jurov: if the "perfect bot" ends up with less then complete monopoly, then it's non-prefect by definition

00:18:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only if it's fixed taper.

00:18:44 jurov: unless we can endlessly argue that monopoly is not optiomal outcome for its owner

00:19:25 jurov: the boundary is now carnot cycle but complete pwnage

00:19:31 jurov: *not carnot cycle

00:19:33 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if can vary taper between min and max of what opponent could have used - then yes

00:19:51 asciilifeform: jurov: nobody's getting a monopoly off epsilon btc

00:20:01 asciilifeform: jurov: which is why the gedankenexperiment was specifically about epsilon

00:20:23 jurov: in 2009 there was only epsilon

00:20:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what i mean is, that you need the volume to be defined by the same angle all around the center. ie, you need a baton that can be turned. whereas in practice they'd use unturned batons.

00:20:26 jurov: notyhing else

00:20:47 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu asciilifeform could also be variable taper

00:20:57 mircea_popescu: it's what i said o.O

00:21:00 asciilifeform: i doubt that they varied the taper

00:21:09 mircea_popescu: ever seen the item itself ?

00:21:09 asciilifeform: take a table leg, a length of photo film, and experiment

00:21:17 mircea_popescu: no, table length is turned.

00:21:29 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu i'm slow..

00:21:32 asciilifeform: only ever saw modern reproductions of scytale

00:21:37 asciilifeform: not having been to ancient sparta in person

00:22:05 mircea_popescu: all the ones i've seen were asymmetrical.

00:22:13 asciilifeform: http://crypto.di.uoa.gr/ec13puzzle/Eurocrypt_2013_-_puzzle_page/background_files/IMG_4749.jpg

00:22:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DQRhB3 )

00:22:21 asciilifeform: i see it

00:22:43 mircea_popescu: crpto, 3k years ago as today : if naively implemented, trivial. if not... well.... ahem.

00:23:31 asciilifeform: still crackable with a rubber cock that inflates while second variable is expansion of one end (use an aperture, like camera)

00:23:48 mircea_popescu: yes, but the problem becomes similar to "crack this otp"

00:23:55 mircea_popescu: "sure. i can crack it any way you want me to"

00:23:57 asciilifeform: more like cracking a rotor

00:24:21 mircea_popescu: more like cracking rsa : for the techology they had at the time, absolute security.

00:24:26 asciilifeform: as adlai pointed out, there is ample info bounding the possible plaintexts available in the ciphertext

00:24:36 asciilifeform: for their time - if they worked it correctly - yes

00:24:50 mircea_popescu: only if you assume the pad is short and fixed length

00:25:18 mircea_popescu: fixed distance i mean. if you have a 100 cm pad with 1 leter per cm, yes.

00:25:32 mircea_popescu: if you have a 5km pad with 1 letter per 1.1 cm on average, from 1 to 2, then no.

00:25:58 asciilifeform: incidentally, i love a good analogue 'stone-age' cryptomechanism. and not only for enciphering. consider the broken cup.

00:26:12 mircea_popescu: right

00:26:12 asciilifeform: authenticator, used even in ww2

00:26:27 mircea_popescu: this, iirc, was the first use of glass

00:26:32 mircea_popescu: they'd make a bead and crush it.

00:26:40 asciilifeform: modern cryptowankers' parlance calls these 'physically unclonable function'

00:27:12 asciilifeform: glass is still king, incidentally

00:27:20 mircea_popescu: tup

00:27:23 mircea_popescu: yup*

00:27:24 asciilifeform: except don't have to break it, but expose to light

00:27:37 asciilifeform: a kind of interferometric 'hash'

00:27:38 adlai: the cool thing about nonphysical crypto is that you can generate unclonable objects together with a physically separated party

00:27:57 asciilifeform: adlai: ?

00:28:10 adlai: shared secret generation

00:28:17 asciilifeform: what's the unclonable part ?

00:29:10 pete_dushenski: adlai the cool thing about everything nonphysical is... its nonphysicality ;)

00:29:41 asciilifeform: when i used word 'unclonable' - that's meant literally. as in, no one will produce a matching half of that broken glass

00:29:46 asciilifeform: even if they'd much like to

00:29:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10384 @ 0.00039901 = 4.1433 BTC [-]

00:30:01 asciilifeform: with any existing or foreseeable tech

00:30:06 adlai: i guess everything's clonable, so that's the wrong analogy to make; physical unclonable items would be used for authentication ('thing is as i remember it'), shared secrets are used for secure communication

00:30:12 asciilifeform: (there are edges a few atoms thick, in there)

00:30:36 mircea_popescu: adlai> i guess everything's clonable, << what's this, progress hour ?

00:32:09 mircea_popescu: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/03/google-seems-to-have-broken-email-forwarding/#comment-160795 << lawl i like this guy.

00:32:11 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DQSnwx )

00:32:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25936 @ 0.00040536 = 10.5134 BTC [+] {2}

00:36:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22700 @ 0.00037772 = 8.5742 BTC [-] {3}

00:37:01 asciilifeform: ^ re: linked article << 'embrace & extinguish'

00:37:25 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043090 <<< me is blown away at kakobrekla's immense fan expertise.

00:37:25 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 19:46:13; kakobrekla: heres a few of the more interesting pwm ones; http://shrani.si/f/3M/2d/4N2Jzpz2/profiles.png

00:37:47 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, that entire "oh, let's use someone else's stuff because it's stuff and why not" thing is dead.

00:38:00 mircea_popescu: they have shat the stick, so to speak. no further usage of anything unless it's in the wot.

00:38:01 asciilifeform: 'free cheese is found in mousetraps'

00:38:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 85 @ 0.03812376 = 3.2405 BTC [-] {5}

00:38:12 mircea_popescu: be it google or apple, it can fucking rot. everything will have to be reimplemented.

00:38:21 mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "not evil" us corps.

00:38:43 asciilifeform: there are also impotent, and also dead ones

00:38:58 asciilifeform: as americans used to say 'good indians are in the cemetary'

00:39:11 mircea_popescu: sure. but as a matter of principle, the naive 1990s hippy "here's a thing i found, i am using it now" thing jumped the shark.

00:39:40 asciilifeform: it's rather like those kids in ru who make a hobby of collecting mementoes from old battlefields

00:39:50 mircea_popescu: will make "get big fast" fucking impossible to get revenue on, because all the customers you want are not going by marketing.

00:39:52 asciilifeform: every so often, 'oooh coool',... 'bang'

00:40:04 asciilifeform: if you aren't a sapper - find another hobby

00:40:08 mircea_popescu: and it'll make it fucking impossible fgor all the retarded "Women in internet" to make a living at their usual scams, marketing, pr, whatever.

00:40:12 mircea_popescu: but... them's the breaks.

00:41:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 116 @ 0.012 = 1.392 BTC [-]

00:42:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043133 << wut ?! ozone is pretty much the number 1 reducer of organic matter.

00:42:27 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 20:32:25; jurov: ^ as per above, it does not affect organic molecules. just numbs the smell cells, I guess.

00:43:23 mircea_popescu: dumbass epa. from the link :

00:43:25 mircea_popescu: "The same chemical properties that allow high concentrations of ozone to react with organic material outside the body give it the ability to react with similar organic material that makes up the body, and potentially cause harmful health consequences. When inhaled, ozone can damage the lungs (see - "Ozone and Your Health")."

00:43:48 asciilifeform: oxidizer not reducer

00:43:56 mircea_popescu: obviously, the reference is broken, because "We recently updated AIRNow.gov". and apparently they think this is how you say "we've recently brokenb airnow.gov"

00:44:04 asciilifeform: unless 'reducer' was meant in the ordinary, rather than chemist's, sense

00:44:09 mircea_popescu: i am certainly not taking any advice from these morons.

00:44:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ordinary. makes them shorter.

00:44:46 mircea_popescu: the smelly parts are particularly susceptible, incidentally. both aromatics and sulphide types.

00:45:00 asciilifeform: the linked crap has the basic idea, ozone works as well on the meat as on whatever you're fumigating against

00:45:07 asciilifeform: don't sit and be gassed when fumigating.

00:45:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the idea is to treat air with ozone in an ozone trap.

00:45:28 mircea_popescu: not to pump ozone into the atmosphere.

00:45:40 asciilifeform: the linked thing was about machines that do precisely the latter

00:45:49 asciilifeform: commonly sold in gringolandia as cure-alls

00:46:25 mircea_popescu: yes well, the epa idiocy was not finding the room, among very usefully distinctive verbiage like "Healthy people, as well as those with respiratory difficulty, can experience breathing problems when exposed to ozone.", to specify this

00:46:48 mircea_popescu: it's you know... kinda important. seeing how they didn't title it "a particularly braindamaged misimplementation of ozone air purifying"

00:47:14 asciilifeform: if somebody wants to dig up the warning from 1920s (mentioned briefly in the modern usg one) would be interesting to read.

00:47:23 asciilifeform: and almost certainly shorter

00:47:25 mircea_popescu: tbh, i don't know there exists material more intellectually objectionable than the shit pouring out of the usg.

00:47:28 mircea_popescu: reminds me of the damned soviets.

00:48:03 mircea_popescu: "USG - Army Of One, And They're All Retarded"

00:48:04 asciilifeform: they didn't have cut&paste

00:48:20 asciilifeform: modern usg has many advantages in bullshit production over predecessors

00:48:34 mircea_popescu: all but a working head.

00:49:23 asciilifeform: (the soviets also didn't have microshit 'word', which helps illiterates to play-pretend by turning them into a kind of cyborg meat-assisted shannonizer)

00:49:36 mircea_popescu: myeah.

00:49:44 mircea_popescu: they were stuck to formulaics instead.

00:50:00 asciilifeform: the total intellectual load placed on chumps was considerably lighter

00:50:13 asciilifeform: most folks with any kind of brain at all, just ignored the slogans when off the clock

00:50:28 asciilifeform: biggest shared 'in joke' in the world

00:50:33 asciilifeform: usa - no such luck

00:51:18 mircea_popescu: The Express? ill-defined sources appear to want to tell a story about SIGINT succeeded rather then explain how it is that SIGINT failed (at least accor ding to the story getting told publicly).' << doh.

00:52:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 833 @ 0.012 = 9.996 BTC [-]

00:52:21 mircea_popescu: here's the long and the short of this story : you got two whores, just like in the chemistry and agriculture story. one's whomint, the other's slutmint. you gotta fuck either one or the other. they both have very specific, life altering constraints.

00:52:42 mircea_popescu: if you decide to fuck whomint, where the fuck is harry poter fanfic boy going to find money to pay for his groceries ?

00:52:54 mircea_popescu: he'll have to fucking walk on streets and talk to people and non-aspie shit like that.

00:53:05 mircea_popescu: he'd rather swallow a fistful of thumbtacks.

00:53:38 mircea_popescu: so you're stuck with slutmint. no matter what fucking happens, it's going to have been a story about how "we" definitely need more slutmint, and all the time and resources spent in the past on slutmint was a good idea.

00:53:41 mircea_popescu: tis what it is.

00:54:22 asciilifeform: thought it was more mundane mechanism, where you absolutely must have elint for totalitarian control of the english world, where stoolie culture was not already well developed

00:54:30 mircea_popescu: we got slutmint and yekutzky can go on writing about what gangrene said to liberty valance or w/e.

00:54:33 asciilifeform: (and at any rate feels too much like work)

00:54:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform imo this is entirely a subjective problem.

00:55:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23299 @ 0.0003713 = 8.6509 BTC [-] {3}

00:55:30 mircea_popescu: just like the retarded 17yo who thinks she's a supermodel perceives peoiple walking down the street as "her audience", the redditard generation will perceive everything as sigint rules. because... that's the only thing they can do.

00:56:16 mircea_popescu: what do you mean "it doesn't work" ? this presumes an alt-universe in which there are alternatives, so things could not work. the world they inhabit knows no such thing, and so... of course it works.

00:57:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: or they were trying to solve a different problem:

00:57:25 asciilifeform: say, actually have every table and chair with microphone that sets off alarms if someone mutters a dissenting thought under his breath

00:57:32 asciilifeform: no more festering resentment, as in soviet times

00:57:45 asciilifeform: not that this is actually possible, necessarily, but -thinkable-

00:57:50 asciilifeform: and that's enough for the buggers

00:57:56 asciilifeform: that it's... thinkable.

00:57:58 mircea_popescu: your first doesn't lead to your second, so which do i admit, the first or the sercond ?

00:58:30 asciilifeform: they want to solve the problem of turning man into livestock

00:59:01 mircea_popescu: that's a generous problem to solve, seeing how the part that'll ever get solved was never not solved, and the rest isn't happening.

00:59:25 asciilifeform: didn't say it would happen, but the allure is irresistible to them

00:59:41 mircea_popescu: nonsense.

00:59:55 mircea_popescu: you're looking at a cat and seeing love. it's just a cat.

01:00:20 asciilifeform: it's a hungry leopard

01:00:28 asciilifeform: and 'loves' the delicious flesh.

01:00:31 mircea_popescu: only if you're chicklet sized.

01:01:22 mircea_popescu: the very notion that the us has any sort of purpose, not even conscious or expressible, but any sort whatsoever is ridiculous on its face. it has all the purpose of a shambling headless zombie. which is why they're stuck trying to invent nonsense, "women and gayz! anti pedo!!" etc.

01:01:34 mircea_popescu: it's the exact equivalent of german kids that are "anti nazi". orly ?

01:01:50 mircea_popescu: a tad late for that show.

01:02:51 asciilifeform: thinking of the still-living flesh now, not the gangrenous

01:02:53 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043158 <<< plenty.

01:02:53 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:01:23; mike_c: There isn't much doubt that they took ulbricht's coins, right?

01:03:16 asciilifeform: nsa, the fed, the nameless ones (tm), et al - are not run by the pheminist antinazi wtf crowd.

01:03:18 mike_c: but the coins are moving. how does that work?

01:03:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043160 << the basis is that they made some claims, about selling coins, and then failed to deliver on the coiuns they alleged to sell.

01:03:40 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:02:00; mike_c: i understand the theory :) I don't get the basis.

01:03:51 mircea_popescu: this is exactly identical to bfl delivering miners, with USMS playing the role of inaba.

01:04:06 mircea_popescu: coins move all the time.

01:04:47 mircea_popescu: anyway, the onus is not on observers to explain the usg. the usg made some claims, which were in due time proven false.

01:04:55 mircea_popescu: which they ignored.

01:05:26 mircea_popescu: sure, it's "not been 100% proven as a scam". this however isn't the criteria. you lie, you get caught, you're fucked.

01:08:01 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043164 << emphatically no.

01:08:01 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:02:54; mike_c: seems there ought to be some reasonable blockchain evidence one way or the other. don't we know the ulbricht address in question?

01:08:08 cazalla: clinton ran own mail server, who knew lol http://bigstory.ap.org/article/b78ba433af3a45209668f745158d994c/clinton-ran-homebrew-computer-system-official-emails

01:08:11 assbot: House committee subpoenas Clinton emails in Benghazi probe ... ( http://bit.ly/1NmZ0yC )

01:08:11 mircea_popescu: the blockchain is not an evidentiary record for third parties.

01:09:26 mircea_popescu: "The development on Capitol Hill came the same day The Associated Press reported the existence of a personal email server traced back to the Chappaqua, New York, home of Clinton. The unusual practice of a Cabinet-level official running her own email server would have given Clinton ? who is expected to run for president in the 2016 campaign ? significant control over limiting access to her message archives."

01:09:36 mircea_popescu: derp. emails still travel in plaintext, and this is the sigint we get ?

01:09:56 asciilifeform: exactly the same way btc tx travels in plaintext

01:10:06 asciilifeform: clinton, etc. don't expect to lose anything if it gets out

01:10:15 asciilifeform: because, to the extent is valuable - nonattributable

01:10:43 mircea_popescu: perhaps.

01:10:45 asciilifeform: if tomorrow we get a 'leaked' clinton email where clitler reveals that she is medusa and can kill with headsnakes - what will change ?

01:10:58 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform clinton's going to claim 'hacked' when one of these emails shows something undue ?

01:11:24 pete_dushenski: or is doesn't matter what she claims ?

01:11:40 asciilifeform: 'respectable' mouthpieces won't touch the subject

01:11:49 asciilifeform: it'll be like the 9/11 crap.

01:12:10 asciilifeform: 'xxxxx.' 'you're a nutter, go away'

01:12:27 pete_dushenski: well, clinton isn't the wtc

01:12:33 pete_dushenski: far from it.

01:13:05 pete_dushenski: she's a distraction at best and a fallguy at worst

01:13:24 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043230 << yeah srsly, etrade is iirc 30

01:13:24 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:40:01; mike_c: $5 / month is rich?

01:13:26 pete_dushenski: but hey, let's see her run and find out

01:13:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's rich if it's denominated in plutonium!

01:14:07 mircea_popescu: she's definitely the more intellectually capable husk they got floating around. who else, jeb, bush's retarded brother/cousin/sister in law ?

01:14:22 asciilifeform: don't forget the other obama

01:15:33 mircea_popescu: the other obama is not really qualified to run kim's shoe boutique.

01:15:44 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu i seem to recall you saying something to the effect of 'old women in power are the fucking worst'

01:15:52 pete_dushenski: is hillary exempt from this ?

01:16:09 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski not my country, whadda i care. she's still the only not braidamaged runner so far.

01:16:41 ben_vulpes: <pete_dushenski> asciilifeform clinton's going to claim 'hacked' when one of these emails shows something undue ? << a good reason to use usg mailservers and own your keys

01:17:06 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu except she's not running... yet.

01:17:11 mircea_popescu: yeah. right.

01:17:11 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: point was that these folks live in a perverse sandbox world where it literally doesn't matter what happens

01:17:21 mircea_popescu: which is why the democrats have alternatives. because she's not running.

01:17:34 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform 'the show must go on!'

01:17:43 asciilifeform: as orlov pointed out

01:17:51 asciilifeform: they don't care if they win a war, lose a war, here&there

01:18:22 asciilifeform: it's a very long road (or so they think) to hitler's bunker and 'headsoff.com' being filmed on washington streets

01:18:23 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu repblicans don't exactly 'have alternative', much less plural

01:19:03 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu and i'd still bet a nickel on the republicans

01:19:32 pete_dushenski: dems might take even longer shot because ya, doesn't much matter.

01:20:00 cazalla: pete_dushenski, pretty sure she can't announce nomination until such and such a date.. part of what made the bitbet bet's that clinton and rand would announce last year an easy win

01:20:04 pete_dushenski: might as well make an interesting ballot pairing of two people noone has ever heard of

01:20:07 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> which is why the democrats have alternatives. because she's not running. << implying she might run in 8 years?

01:20:29 pete_dushenski: cazalla aha

01:20:43 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes lol when she's 80

01:20:51 ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: srs

01:21:20 ben_vulpes: 76, but whatever.

01:21:26 ben_vulpes: 77?

01:21:34 ben_vulpes: 42!

01:21:41 pete_dushenski: that's the secret

01:21:48 ben_vulpes: answer.

01:23:18 pete_dushenski: kinda like 'where's osama's body?'

01:23:34 pete_dushenski: actually, osama's body is much like these usms auctions

01:24:02 pete_dushenski: many promises, only hollywood 'evidence'

01:24:19 pete_dushenski: 'we made a movie and it won an oscar so history happened!'

01:24:28 *: adlai wonders what evidence you're expecting to see of the auctions

01:24:39 asciilifeform: or the body

01:24:47 asciilifeform: (does each u.s. citizen get a small piece?)

01:24:56 pete_dushenski: to taste, yes

01:25:01 pete_dushenski: like the wooly mammoth

01:26:08 pete_dushenski: and since osama is basically the usg's religious messiah, come to save it from internal destruction by providing an external enemy, why not make a whole church service around him

01:26:19 pete_dushenski: offering up his 'body and blood'

01:31:58 pete_dushenski: adlai 'the winner' getting out of dodge and never looking back would do.

01:32:17 pete_dushenski: otherwise, wtf is wrong with their heads.

01:33:41 pete_dushenski: so barring that much braindamage in a single vessle, we should see silbert or whoever packing their bags for rio de janeiro

01:42:41 adlai: it's a problem, the people who frequent such yardsales probably like hanging around the yard

01:48:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7868 @ 0.00036272 = 2.8539 BTC [+] {2}

01:49:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25732 @ 0.00038164 = 9.8204 BTC [+] {2}

01:50:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7968 @ 0.00038297 = 3.0515 BTC [+]

01:57:09 asciilifeform: for some reason nobody mentioned the ugliest thing about ada

01:57:17 asciilifeform: the 200k helloworld.

01:57:38 danielpbarron: i ordered that "bible" you mentioned

01:57:55 asciilifeform: pragma No_Run_Time;

01:57:55 asciilifeform: with Interfaces.C; use Interfaces.C;

01:57:55 asciilifeform: procedure Hello is

01:57:55 asciilifeform: procedure Puts (Str : Char_Array);

01:57:55 asciilifeform: pragma Import (C, Puts, "puts");

01:57:56 asciilifeform: begin

01:57:58 asciilifeform: Puts ("Hello, World!");

01:58:00 asciilifeform: end Hello;

01:58:02 asciilifeform: ^ 6k on my box

01:58:04 asciilifeform: but you can see how this cheats.

01:58:33 asciilifeform: (both numbers refer to stripped elf's on an x86-64 box)

01:59:08 mats: i managed to make ~60% ROI in the 13 months ive had a coinbr account

01:59:15 mats: thanks jurov

01:59:18 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: you will have a real bitch of a time learning the language from the standard and justification docs, if that's what you were thinking of doing

01:59:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4671 @ 0.00040988 = 1.9145 BTC [+]

02:00:37 danielpbarron: not sure what i was thinking except that i like the chapter:verse thing

02:00:53 danielpbarron: sounds like the book is timeless or something / probably a good investment

02:01:16 asciilifeform: all serious technical docs 'written for the ages' ought to be in that format.

02:01:27 danielpbarron: mats, was 60% enough to make up for the drop in USD/BTC price?

02:02:40 danielpbarron: i found a used one for 60 USD (the new is twice that) and impulsively added it to another order i had pending

02:03:07 mats: no, i bought a majority of it at 800 BTCUSD

02:03:09 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: make sure it describes at least the '95' variant

02:03:13 asciilifeform: at the earliest

02:04:00 danielpbarron: mats, so your "gains" were really just you helping out the fiat traders / at least it beat buying bitcoin and doing nothing with it

02:04:35 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i searched for the code you mentioned in here, and yeah it says 95 in the title or whatever

02:05:05 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: there are four adas - 83, 95, 2005, 2012

02:05:38 mats: yes, thats the downside to having imperfect information

02:05:47 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, http://www.amazon.com/dp/3540693351/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_asp_tErxI.1VXP299

02:05:49 assbot: Amazon.com: Ada 2005 Reference Manual. Language and Standard Libraries: International Standard ISO/IEC 8652/1995(E) with Technical Corrigendum 1 and Amendment 1 ... / Programming and Software Engineering) (9783540693352): S. Tucker Taft, Robert A. Duff, Randall L. Brukardt, Erhard Ploedereder, Pasca ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdeOgX )

02:06:03 danielpbarron: ah apparently i got the 2005 one

02:06:12 asciilifeform: get the 'rationale' too

02:06:16 asciilifeform: that's the one with chapter & verse

02:06:32 asciilifeform: or rather, they both have it

02:06:44 asciilifeform: but error messages (in verbose mode) cite rationale, iirc

02:06:54 decimation: aren't those all published on the internet?

02:07:02 asciilifeform: decimation: they are

02:07:07 asciilifeform: i assumed he likes dead tree

02:08:20 asciilifeform: http://comp.lang.ada.narkive.com/vnn86krY/size-of-linked-program-increasing-with-new-version-of-gnat << mega-flamew4r

02:08:22 assbot: Size of linked program increasing with new version of GNAT. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bdfkvo )

02:11:48 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043281 << it's actually how brokerages work irl.

02:11:48 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 21:51:43; jurov: thestringpuller that's exactly what i do have in mind

02:12:08 mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> "implying she might run in 8 years?" << no, being facetious.

02:12:17 mircea_popescu: it's plain obvious she's the democrat candidate.

02:12:18 decimation: asciilifeform: the wisdom I've picked up from my own experiments and reading about yours is that it seems the ada compiler you choose is critical

02:12:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6218 @ 0.00040946 = 2.546 BTC [-]

02:13:29 mircea_popescu: "18* adlai wonders what evidence you're expecting to see of the auctions" << complete misstatement of the situaiton. read the logs. search for "foia" might help

02:13:47 asciilifeform: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=YrA1zuD2 << fucking scammerz

02:13:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bdgozi )

02:14:01 *: mircea_popescu is mildly offended at this "i will persist in being a redditard" attitude, for the record.

02:14:16 asciilifeform: decimation: i tested on both available compilers, the foundation's and the gnu

02:14:21 asciilifeform: decimation: same result

02:14:40 asciilifeform: decimation: i did not test on any closed-source compiler because they don't exist on the planet i choose to live on

02:14:49 thestringpuller: why is everyone complaining about ada

02:15:04 thestringpuller: 2 beers in and a few exercises this is not bad .jpeg

02:15:08 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: because there is not actually an alternative to ada

02:15:21 asciilifeform: and i think i'm the only one actually talking about it, for the most part

02:15:52 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: you have reignited my love for computers again

02:15:59 thestringpuller: despite your pessimism :D

02:16:11 *: asciilifeform wonders how

02:16:27 mircea_popescu: fun fact : elf does not contain a windows byte. netbsd, linux, system v etc.

02:16:53 asciilifeform: why would it ?

02:16:57 asciilifeform: microshit wasn't at the table

02:17:00 asciilifeform: which is as it ought to be

02:17:41 mircea_popescu: not saying it should, merely pointing it out :D

02:19:04 decimation: wasn't it well known that microsoft stole the bsd IP stack for windows NT?

02:19:12 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i love old microshit tho. found a copy of 3d studio R1 from 1990, and it runs on ms dos

02:19:20 thestringpuller: it's slightly poetic.

02:19:24 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what's that got to do with microshit?

02:19:25 thestringpuller: TRON style i 'spose

02:19:31 mircea_popescu: lol mats made 60% bringing his losses to only 60%.

02:19:33 asciilifeform: '3d studio' was an 'autodesk' product

02:19:46 asciilifeform: ran in protected mode, too, using no actual msdos api

02:19:47 thestringpuller: that runs on microshit dos

02:19:49 thestringpuller: lol

02:20:08 *: asciilifeform spent what must have been a whole year playing with it as a kid

02:20:08 thestringpuller: i can't bring myself to hate on DOS

02:20:25 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: dos was not, properly speaking, a microshit product

02:20:26 asciilifeform: stolen.

02:20:38 mircea_popescu: unlike which ?

02:20:48 decimation: yeah it was a stolen reimplemenation of cp/m as i recall

02:21:03 mircea_popescu: pretty much

02:21:14 thestringpuller: i thought even windows and nt were "stolen"

02:21:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043293 << for the exact reason george costanza once pointed out. "it's there"

02:21:40 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:00:28; asciilifeform: i kinda wonder why poor folks are even interested in mpex (or, for that matter, schwab)

02:22:04 adlai: !s foia

02:22:05 assbot: 40 results for 'foia' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=foia

02:22:11 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043306 << ahahaha zing

02:22:11 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:06:11; mike_c: yeah, some like ada :D

02:23:12 mircea_popescu: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2015/03/google-seems-to-have-broken-email-forwarding/#comment-160814 << sweet innocence.

02:23:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bdii30 )

02:23:33 mircea_popescu: if one is willing to take this tack, i wonder why one's not going the whole nine yards and throwing out the keyboard.

02:23:40 mircea_popescu: "I JUST WANT THE COMPUTER TO FUCKING WORK!!!1"

02:24:40 decimation: mircea_popescu I thought you were just making a point about "I use this thing and it works" is so 90's

02:25:01 mircea_popescu: the entire "i want government to just work by itself and let me to my affairs" has worked splendidly in the us, 70s to 2000s.

02:25:04 decimation: apparently jwz wants to live in the past

02:25:28 mircea_popescu: not the past, as this never existed, but a magical future where things work by themselves in the way ~you~ want them to.

02:25:41 decimation: in exchange for nothing, mind

02:25:45 mircea_popescu: the crowning nonsense of all nonsense, seriously. why is it not obvious that if you give up agency you also give up... agency ?

02:25:46 adlai: he seems to want free tech support

02:25:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this ancient fallacy has a name: 'dwim'

02:26:08 adlai: asciilifeform: are you familiar with dwimlisp?

02:26:18 mircea_popescu: right.

02:26:27 asciilifeform: adlai: aha

02:27:28 mircea_popescu: http://dwimperl.com/

02:27:29 assbot: DWIM Perl - the Perl distribution that contains everything you'll ever need ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdjdAo )

02:27:36 mircea_popescu: since im in a ftr mood apparently.

02:28:03 asciilifeform: dwim is the shortest possible summary of how illiterate folks imagine programming

02:28:12 asciilifeform: or engineering in general

02:28:14 mircea_popescu: !s babbage

02:28:15 assbot: 6 results for 'babbage' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=babbage

02:28:39 asciilifeform: 'On two occasions I have been asked, 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.'

02:28:49 decimation: apparently jwz's main business is running a club now

02:29:02 asciilifeform: decimation: that's where he parked his 'escape rocket'

02:29:11 mircea_popescu: yeah he has a disco in la he's been fighting the gobmint forever over.

02:29:11 adlai: (for the curious/brave - http://dwim.hu (requires javascript and much searching as it's impossible to link into this 'website'))

02:29:13 asciilifeform: i have always had a mild dislike for jwz and was never able to articulate why

02:29:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why ?

02:29:34 decimation: asciilifeform: he strikes me as a washed-up do-o-crat

02:29:56 mircea_popescu: iirc he started out as a lisp hacker.

02:29:56 asciilifeform: possibly because only fact i knew about him was him being involved in the dotcom bubble and being responsible for the steaming crock of shit that is netscape, and, by implication, the entire shit soup of www standards

02:30:04 mircea_popescu: uh.

02:30:14 adlai: he forked xemacs from gnu

02:30:18 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: almost all american programmers of a certain age once wrote lisp of some description

02:30:23 mircea_popescu: the www soup is scarcely to be pinned on one man, and if one man were to be found it's likely not this one.

02:30:36 asciilifeform: getting rich off netscape feels vaguely unsavoury in my book

02:30:40 mircea_popescu: why ?

02:30:54 adlai: jws was an employee at netscape

02:31:00 adlai: rather junior one

02:31:04 decimation: well, for one thing they stole mosaic

02:31:17 asciilifeform: anyway, not really pissing on the man in earnest here

02:31:39 asciilifeform: just confessing that my overall burning hatred for the time, place, and culture in which he became rich & famous spills onto him.

02:32:13 mircea_popescu: i liked the 90s!

02:32:34 mircea_popescu: i may even go so far as to say i liked the 90s sv o.O

02:32:46 asciilifeform: if i were to learn that he made his nightclub seed money by executing contract hits, rather than at netscape, i'd like him considerably more

02:33:13 adlai: he did piss off stallman

02:33:22 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043311 << "moving the market", in professional language "slippage" is not a desirable phenomenon but the bane of all existance.

02:33:22 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:07:20; danielpbarron: asciilifeform's got a good point though, with such little amounts you aren't going to move the market -- might as well just pretend trade in a txt file

02:33:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm sure the denizens liked it also. but as al said, 'first ecstasy, then laundry.' we're living with the results of '90s sv.

02:33:42 decimation: adlai: it's probably impossible to do something positive to emacs without pissing off stallman

02:33:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's somewhat like saying that 'engineers hate friction'

02:33:55 mircea_popescu: or anything else for that matter.

02:34:14 asciilifeform: not exactly false, but no mechanical device would function if friction did not exist

02:34:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform slippage is not friction, slippage is your lab getting hit by earthquakes.

02:34:37 asciilifeform: but what if the lab is not a lab, but a bomb whose entire purpose is to trigger earthquake

02:34:39 mircea_popescu: "how the fuck am i supposed to do any scioence in here!111"

02:34:52 mircea_popescu: that is the EXACT feeling it evokes in financeheads.

02:35:02 adlai: i'm not sure the constructive uses of friction have any parallel either... beyond maybe as a cost of manipulation (when you don't control the tape)

02:35:36 *: asciilifeform is not aware of any successful instances of 'moving market', other than brute affairs like buterin's waterfall or the earlier and better-known gold price suppression scheme

02:35:48 mircea_popescu: netscape is a fine example.

02:35:55 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: buterin's waterfall is leaky tho.

02:37:14 adlai: asciilifeform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Thursday

02:37:16 assbot: Silver Thursday - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdkVBV )

02:37:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will remember we're discussing markets here. the phenomenon of alleged "prices" in a situation where the government is the largest economic actor is laughable anyway.

02:37:29 asciilifeform: ^

02:37:31 decimation: moldbug has a post about why central banks spend most of their time trying to figure out how to not move the market

02:37:38 mircea_popescu: any system where taxes exceed maybe 6 or 7% is de facto a command economy,

02:37:44 mircea_popescu: generally a very poorly implemented one

02:38:16 thestringpuller: i would love to be taxed at 7%

02:38:26 thestringpuller: my God what country is that?!?

02:38:50 danielpbarron: a sim city still set to defaults

02:38:59 trinque: !b 3

02:38:59 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2NED0VT.txt )

02:39:00 thestringpuller: danielpbarron is my all time favorite person now

02:39:17 thestringpuller: the funny thing is

02:39:18 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what country << generally, the 'orc world' where laws aren't actually enforced unless you piss people off

02:39:25 thestringpuller: that if 7% is still too high for high wealth sims

02:39:44 thestringpuller: like seriously, high wealth sims are only happy at like 4%

02:39:58 thestringpuller: your cities fill up with poor people >7%

02:40:22 danielpbarron: i could never get everyone happy even when i used to glitch to get "MAXINT" currency units

02:40:55 thestringpuller: keep typing FUNDS. QE infinity.

02:40:57 decimation: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/01/greg_page_on_fo.html > "And there have always been voices to let market signals determine how farmers planted their crops. Don't make people grow cotton just to maintain their base acres in the cotton program, when the world is crying out for more soybeans to feed itself."

02:40:59 assbot: " + soundfiledesc + " ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdlQT2 )

02:41:01 asciilifeform: where i live, 40% is considered pretty good.

02:41:19 thestringpuller: this is how I imagined QE though, some d00d at Fed typing "FUNDS FUNDS FUNDS" over again on his computer.

02:41:30 decimation: asciilifeform: that's not even counting the fact that usd in your 'savings' account is continually thieved

02:41:35 asciilifeform: decimation: aha

02:41:46 asciilifeform: speaking just of old-fashioned taxes

02:41:47 thestringpuller: 401k is a scam

02:41:53 thestringpuller: and enron ruined pensions for everyone

02:42:05 asciilifeform: good thing i don't expect to live to pension age

02:42:15 decimation: I was just looking at the 'mid-cap value' fund from vanguard

02:42:20 asciilifeform: (nor, in general, should other u.s. folks, unless they're already very old)

02:42:22 decimation: the 'value' forward p/e was 30!

02:42:46 thestringpuller: asciilifeform that is depressing!

02:43:10 decimation: asciilifeform: what are you gonna do? withdraw your retirement with penalty and move to mexico?

02:43:23 asciilifeform: decimation: what made you think i have anything to withdraw ?

02:43:55 decimation: asciilifeform: surely you get paid a little extra

02:44:11 thestringpuller: asciilifeform contribute 0

02:44:16 thestringpuller: per paycheck

02:44:24 thestringpuller: instead his retirement is held in cyborgs and robots

02:44:28 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i don't even work at a place where they ask the question any more

02:44:52 thestringpuller: so you are pretty much robot worker?

02:45:02 asciilifeform: ?

02:45:18 thestringpuller: employer treats you like thing and not person

02:45:26 asciilifeform: neh, sorta the opposite

02:45:28 asciilifeform: but contractor

02:45:32 asciilifeform: these get paid in money

02:45:39 trinque: asciilifeform: even the fall of the soviet union didn't kill off all the former soviets

02:45:40 asciilifeform: (what passes for money in this part of the world)

02:45:48 trinque: what do you think is going to kill us off?

02:45:53 asciilifeform: trinque: read orlov's 'post-soviet lessons' to learn why the analogy does not apply

02:45:58 trinque: k

02:46:02 asciilifeform: trinque: know that no one in the ussr needed to pay rent

02:46:07 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: hey you're the one who can't spend benjies without setting off alarms.

02:46:23 thestringpuller: i'm doing just fine with my duffelbag full of cash here.

02:46:27 asciilifeform: trinque: (a token sum was collected, but no one could be evicted for any reason short of death or having new digs in prison)

02:46:39 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i don't get paid in benjies

02:46:57 thestringpuller: my employer said this is totally normal tho!

02:47:04 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: but, like most folks in my profession, in 'legit' electric bzollarz

02:47:39 asciilifeform: for a 'legit' firm, that keeps a single set of books and files taxes, etc

02:47:49 thestringpuller: that 1099

02:48:05 asciilifeform: aha

02:48:06 decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.zillow.com/blog/rents-up-not-where-you-expect-170427/ < rents in the us are nearly 10% YoY in some cities

02:48:08 assbot: Rents Are Up, and Not Where You Might Expect | Zillow Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1Nnjffr )

02:48:18 *: asciilifeform is aware that we're probably boring the folks outside the u.s. zoolag to tears

02:48:30 thestringpuller: so tru story: buddy from high school was telling me about d00d who was a drug dealer but setup "consulting" llc for "professional coaching"

02:48:48 thestringpuller: d00d would just sell high end weed, and claim it as "consulting services" and would tax that

02:49:00 thestringpuller: ended up retiring before 40

02:49:04 trinque: sure, "computer repair"

02:49:31 thestringpuller: d00d even made invoices for his recurring clientelle

02:49:36 thestringpuller: pretty sure no one went to jail

02:49:44 trinque: yeah, I'm referring to a former friend of mine

02:49:53 trinque: "on site computer repair" bullshit

02:50:09 asciilifeform: laundries are as old as the state itself

02:50:34 thestringpuller: you can still go to jail for tax evasion

02:51:17 thestringpuller: US just wants their cut (not like it helps since we are bankrupt)

02:51:26 trinque: well... "bankrupt"

02:51:34 asciilifeform: incidentally, you will not necessarily go to jail - but the duffel bag - will.

02:51:37 asciilifeform: if ever 'caught'

02:51:44 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i kno rite?!?

02:51:55 thestringpuller: so there is new drug unit in west georgia now

02:52:05 thestringpuller: soul purpose is collecting those duffelbags

02:52:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5029 @ 0.00040988 = 2.0613 BTC [+]

02:52:27 thestringpuller: in fact it is richest police unit in that county

02:52:50 asciilifeform: wait till they switch from plain static robbery to racket

02:53:00 asciilifeform: as always happens in a collapsing police state

02:53:10 thestringpuller: http://www.sheriff.douglas.ga.us/find.html << it is more of racket now me thinks

02:53:29 thestringpuller: the "evidence" is probably auctioned off under the table somewhere

02:54:00 thestringpuller: "The F.I.N.D. Unit has made forty-eight (48) traffic stops that resulted in the detection of bulk cash smugglers."

02:54:12 thestringpuller: "The total amount of United States Currency seized from the stops is: $13,647,160" << they just want new toys

02:55:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14700 @ 0.00040519 = 5.9563 BTC [-] {2}

02:55:27 asciilifeform: https://github.com/search?q=gnatelim&type=Code << who can find anything there which isn't a) word salad or b) part of gcc ?

02:55:28 assbot: Search · gnatelim · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1NnkATM )

02:55:40 asciilifeform: has gnatelim -ever- been fired in anger?

02:55:42 asciilifeform: by anyone ?

02:56:02 PeterL: mircea_popescu: Is F.DERP statement coming soon?

02:57:34 *: asciilifeform was just ip-banned by 'github' for 'too many requests from your addr'

02:57:43 asciilifeform: apparently no one actually reads it in earnest

02:58:12 *: asciilifeform examines source of 'gnatelim' and it appears that it is only able to snip dead code that is -actually represented in your source-

02:58:18 asciilifeform: why would you have dead routines in your own source?

02:58:28 asciilifeform: severe head trauma in childhood ?

03:00:40 mircea_popescu: PeterL being prepared. there's definitely going to be one.

03:01:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 40% or 90% is purely a wordchoice matter, much like the zhim thing. 5%ish is where it matters.

03:02:09 asciilifeform: aha, it's like the decision of how many thousand volts to use in electric chair

03:02:21 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller> and enron ruined pensions for everyone << if only. "My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to i

03:02:21 mircea_popescu: n his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement. All she had was social security to live on."

03:03:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21800 @ 0.00040327 = 8.7913 BTC [-] {2}

03:05:12 adlai: found via reading orlov's Lessons >> http://dieoff.org/

03:05:14 assbot: OVERSHOOT LOOP: Evolution Under The Maximum Power Principle ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdrODl )

03:05:48 mircea_popescu: * asciilifeform was just ip-banned by 'github' for 'too many requests from your addr' << lmao.

03:05:52 mircea_popescu: this takes the fucking cake,

03:06:09 mircea_popescu: open source is safe because it's read by millions of eyes, which we ban.

03:08:00 asciilifeform: was flipping through search results

03:08:02 asciilifeform: of that crud

03:08:13 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043334 << it would not. godel problem / surprise executio nproblem manifested for your convenience as slippage i guess.

03:08:13 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:12:30; asciilifeform: folks with a clue - comment, would the result have any useful connection with reality ?

03:08:37 *: asciilifeform suspected

03:09:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for all the major differences between them and us, it occurs to me there's a very painfully obvious stylistical point : b-a.com doesn't have traffic tracking, github.com doesn't let you search.

03:09:14 mircea_popescu: verrrrry deep this "minor point'

03:09:24 asciilifeform: yet one or more optimal play variants must exist (in the sense the 'optimal' minimax game of chess exists. not in the sense that you could actually play that game or ever see so much as one move of it in life)

03:09:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nope. the notion of "optimal" is undefined.

03:09:37 adlai: b-a.com doesn't log?

03:09:48 adlai: (log itself, not the channel)

03:09:55 mircea_popescu: adlai not iirc.

03:10:02 mircea_popescu: !s don't keep logs

03:10:03 assbot: 1 results for 'don't keep logs' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=don%27t+keep+logs

03:10:29 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: defined as 'what bits would you send back in time to time T1, if you could, from time T2, to maximize profit from investing C coin'

03:10:34 mircea_popescu: hm. it was discussed but i think long long ago, pre searchable stuff.

03:10:52 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this isn't a definition tho.

03:11:04 mircea_popescu: "what would happen if it didn't happen ?"

03:11:08 asciilifeform: it's an existence proof

03:11:13 asciilifeform: say we limit the length of the string

03:11:20 mircea_popescu: nope. you use in one phase symbols that don't exist of the other.

03:11:35 asciilifeform: therefore one or more possible strings would result in max C'

03:11:38 mircea_popescu: '(what bits would you send back in time to time T1), if you could, from time T2, (to maximize profit from investing C coin)'

03:11:44 mircea_popescu: part 2 presumes part 1 doesn't exist.

03:12:29 *: asciilifeform can see where mircea_popescu is going - 'no clockwork universe' - but a trading engine in sufficiently small time span does behave rather like a clockwork universe

03:12:43 mircea_popescu: yes, it does, provided you don't take it out of there.

03:12:48 mircea_popescu: but you're proposing to do exactly that.

03:12:58 mircea_popescu: the moment you start doin this sort of thing it no longer behaves thusly.

03:13:32 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu doesn't 'believe in' infinitesimals either, does he

03:13:39 mircea_popescu: to put this to intuition : suppose in the alt-universe where your microscopic trade happened, another trader happened to see it and panic.

03:13:49 asciilifeform: 'butterfly' ?

03:13:50 asciilifeform: sure

03:14:03 mircea_popescu: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0060/6102/products/book_buy_sell_sell_new_1024x1024.jpg?v=1291137799

03:14:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bdt9tO )

03:14:09 *: asciilifeform read time machine stories as a kid just like everybody else

03:15:24 mircea_popescu: there are a number of hard rules of the world we inhabit, that children take some time to internalize. one is, of course, "move backwards through time" thing. what adolescent did not ponder this, wish it, etc.

03:15:48 mircea_popescu: another is the complexity problem. the simple fact that once the father has said "i know shit", if he opens his mouth enough to say as little as some basic math, he's now wrong.

03:15:53 mircea_popescu: they are of course related.

03:16:00 adlai: When we differ, Charlie usually ends the conversation by saying: “Warren,

03:16:02 adlai: think it over and you’ll agree with me because you’re smart and I’m right.”

03:16:11 mircea_popescu: in any event, all human folly is based on the failure to come to terms and trying to go through the wall.

03:16:38 mircea_popescu: like, the complexity problem guarantees no government will ever succeed. yet who's deterred from "empirebuilding".

03:17:05 mircea_popescu: the time direction thing never stopped anyone from thinking "hey, i could have done better!" or be bitter about how things turned out etc.

03:17:21 asciilifeform: the mouse is only really alive because he tries to go through the glass bottle

03:17:28 asciilifeform: at all times

03:17:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but this is from cause.

03:17:41 mircea_popescu: now look at it from the fallacious "purpose" perspective.

03:17:47 mircea_popescu: is he alive because he... means to ?

03:17:53 mircea_popescu: because he thinks he should have ?

03:18:13 asciilifeform: does steam 'mean to' burst a boiler with plugged valve ?

03:18:24 mircea_popescu: take this with a grain of salt, but here it is :

03:18:33 asciilifeform: the 'purpose' thing is just a demented lens for viewing anything

03:18:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00040988 = 3.6889 BTC [+]

03:19:26 mircea_popescu: at its core, the "optimal retrospective investment" problem is a nude and rude proposition to replace the action imperative ("mouse must escape or die in the act of trying") with an imaginary junk. ("it could have been"). this is not substantially different from what the usg does when it invents a new name for the homeless and pretends to have "resolved the problem".

03:19:40 mircea_popescu: it "works" like all fatlogic works : because it's easier

03:20:16 mircea_popescu: but otherwise, utter waste of time.

03:21:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if waste of time, then what is the correct answer that machine like 'scalpl' is actually approximating when it grinds ?

03:21:13 mircea_popescu: it doesn't exist.

03:21:26 mircea_popescu: what is the correct code gcc approximates as it churns on cygwin ?

03:21:33 asciilifeform: it provably exists

03:21:45 asciilifeform: (not by demonstration. but by deduction)

03:21:45 mircea_popescu: for as long as the proof is wrong, yes, it provably exists.

03:21:49 mircea_popescu: right.

03:22:05 mircea_popescu: the mere fact that you have such proof is sufficient proof that it is wrong.

03:22:10 mircea_popescu: its mere presence suffices.

03:23:12 asciilifeform: somewhat perverted understanding here

03:23:14 mircea_popescu: far be it from me to diss fiction - the creation of "proofs" we know from the outset to be false and then their taking apart to examine where they stole our eyes is exactly shakespeare's trade.

03:23:20 asciilifeform: is only non-provable in the general case

03:23:26 mircea_popescu: but this is the general case.

03:23:27 asciilifeform: for arbitrarily many specific cases - provable.

03:23:40 asciilifeform: for trivial example, the shortest program which does nothing at all is ''.

03:23:41 mircea_popescu: only if they don't include it. once you've included it... you've made it general.

03:23:46 asciilifeform: works on most machines, even!

03:23:55 mircea_popescu: lol

03:23:59 mircea_popescu: no but see ?

03:24:08 asciilifeform: for the original line of reasoning, see chaitin.

03:24:25 mircea_popescu: looky here : for as long as you don't aim to use the "shortest program" thing for the purpose of attacking my statement, it is ok.

03:24:31 mircea_popescu: once you do, you're fucked. "works on most machines" now.

03:25:08 *: asciilifeform did carefully specify that the 'ideal play' is not actually findable

03:25:25 asciilifeform: in the general case.

03:25:38 mircea_popescu: well... chaitin and torkel should be refered together

03:26:05 mircea_popescu: very naggum-ish character actually. except iirc swedish

03:26:53 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043344 << hehe

03:26:53 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:15:35; asciilifeform: you would have done better than 'perfect info' bot << impossible by definition

03:27:55 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043343 << anyway, this is what triggered the discussion, and to move on to more practical considerations :

03:27:55 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:15:19; asciilifeform: understand, interested here in 'theoretical best' of what a smart person with almost no funding could achieve

03:28:26 mircea_popescu: making money is not a function of one's hard work and dilligence in the schoolhouse sense.

03:29:01 asciilifeform: what - in the actual world people inhabit - *is* a function of it?

03:29:02 mircea_popescu: making money is a purely ~political~ function. if you are among the favoured elite of the respublica veneta, you then may invest in the ships, and make a profit. if not, not.

03:29:25 mircea_popescu: if you are one of the people buying belgian rubber concessions on the stock exchanges, you make money. if you're in africa, you make quick with the hands and feet.

03:29:50 mircea_popescu: otherwise, there are some classes of optimization problems ~once you're already rich~.

03:29:51 asciilifeform: l0l

03:30:00 mircea_popescu: but this is conservation. one does not acquire wealth except one single way

03:30:01 asciilifeform: this is exactly how sov. textbooks described stock markets!

03:30:18 mircea_popescu: and that is, joining the wot early, and helping set the world on fire. it. strictly it.

03:30:37 mircea_popescu: the hoodlums trying to be drug lords in detroit have a lot more sense in this matter than the "business majors" coming out of harvard.

03:30:44 mircea_popescu: (some of the latter get it, but rare is that bird).

03:30:48 asciilifeform: 'have low serial number on your party card' ?

03:31:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, us had a much better view of the soviets than the soviets, and vice-versa.

03:31:16 *: asciilifeform not convinced that the hoodlums have more 'sense' than the mouse in the bottle

03:31:28 mircea_popescu: the mouse in the bottle is a superlative of sense.

03:31:33 mircea_popescu: there's no more sense to be had.

03:31:46 asciilifeform: sure there is. an ant can bite in milliseconds.

03:31:55 asciilifeform: smaller nervous system, elementary

03:32:05 mircea_popescu: so ?

03:32:25 asciilifeform: the mouse thing is really about the virtues of not-thinking, no ?

03:32:32 mircea_popescu: no ?

03:33:07 mircea_popescu: it's about not spending your time writing fiction under the pretense of "thinking". the mouse excels at this.

03:33:20 asciilifeform: in that he doesn't have anything like an accurate internal model of his situation, in the bottle

03:33:26 mircea_popescu: but he does.

03:33:34 asciilifeform: really?

03:33:35 mircea_popescu: that's the thing. he does, more so than bill gates.

03:33:52 asciilifeform: mouse understands glass better than the bird (recall the bird film i posted? also persistent beast, also against glass!)

03:34:03 mircea_popescu: he doesn't understand the implementation details. but the situation, he understands just fine.

03:34:24 asciilifeform: i'm quite unconvinced that the bird did

03:34:41 mircea_popescu: prolly not.

03:34:42 asciilifeform: (he was trying to get -in-, for no apparent reason, rather than escape a jar)

03:34:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35506 @ 0.00041126 = 14.6022 BTC [+] {2}

03:35:00 mircea_popescu: birds are really closer to insects than mammals.

03:35:09 mircea_popescu: from a software perspective.

03:35:42 mircea_popescu: it's basically a sort of windows nt, to replace windows 3.1. look, flashier plumage and mating dances!

03:35:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10994 @ 0.00041265 = 4.5367 BTC [+] {2}

03:36:05 asciilifeform: incidentally, i'm rather curious re: how a social animal (rat, wolf) would do in the bottle

03:36:19 mircea_popescu: i once found a fox leg in a bear trap.

03:36:30 asciilifeform: fight the glass to the death - or 'submit' to it as to a 'commanding officer'

03:36:51 asciilifeform: fox is famous for just this

03:37:00 asciilifeform: but not really pack animal, afaik

03:37:30 mircea_popescu: i guess not really no.

03:38:06 BingoBoingo: !b 4

03:38:07 assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2NJFTX3.txt )

03:38:15 asciilifeform: i once caught a groundhog (marmota monax) in a zoological (cage) trap

03:38:35 asciilifeform: it bloodied its nose against the cage for 20 min. or so, then gave up

03:39:16 decimation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE1alBZ-qXI < there's a whole youtube genre of X vs. Y animal

03:39:17 assbot: Brown Recluse vs Wolf Spider Who will win - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdwOYI )

03:39:51 asciilifeform: obligatory:

03:39:52 asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur9fbRz4GxE

03:39:54 assbot: Великая битва слона с китом.avi - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdwSaX )

03:40:03 mircea_popescu: "superman beetle vs flash spider"

03:41:35 decimation: http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/hearing/hearing-ukraine-under-siege nuland vs ukraine

03:41:36 assbot: Hearing: Ukraine Under Siege | House Committee on Foreign Affairs - Ed Royce, Chairman ... ( http://bit.ly/1BdxddG )

03:41:36 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2015#1043399 << eh dun worry, tis not about you.

03:41:36 assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 22:36:47; jurov: i'm trying to make do under some constraints, which i explained several time here

03:41:38 mircea_popescu: you're doin; fine.

03:43:50 mircea_popescu: well anyway, see y'all tomorro

03:48:43 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> it bloodied its nose against the cage for 20 min. or so, then gave up << They tend to do that. Catch a good number with bad intentions towards the garden that way.

03:49:11 BingoBoingo: Strictly catch and release though.

03:51:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4850 @ 0.00041387 = 2.0073 BTC [+]

03:54:09 BingoBoingo: Granted it normally takes the better part of a salad to make the cage traps enticing to groundhogs

03:55:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5418 @ 0.00041576 = 2.2526 BTC [+] {2}

03:57:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 435 @ 0.0125 = 5.4375 BTC [+]

04:01:22 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 228 @ 0.0381 = 8.6868 BTC [-]

04:14:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13500 @ 0.00041129 = 5.5524 BTC [-] {2}

04:22:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17007 @ 0.00040558 = 6.8977 BTC [-] {2}

04:35:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12250 @ 0.00041851 = 5.1267 BTC [+]

04:52:57 []bot: Bet placed: 10 BTC for No on "The Winkdex: BTC $5000 or more in 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1104/ Odds: 12(Y):88(N) by coin, 12(Y):88(N) by weight. Total bet: 83.1718 BTC. Current weight: 84,321.

04:56:51 asciilifeform: can we get scoopbot on the therealbitcoin list ?

04:57:26 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-March/000057.html http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-March/000058.html << congrats mod6

04:57:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DRhW0E )

04:57:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DRhWha )

04:57:33 *: asciilifeform hasn't tested yet

05:00:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.00041679 = 2.2507 BTC [-]

05:01:22 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i drove the hog to the forest & turned it loose there. found it interesting how the beast had to be shaken out of the trap, wouldn't simply leave on its own

05:03:27 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They tend to do that. Amazing though on the other side how over time it takes increasing enticements to get them trapped in the first place.

05:03:27 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

05:05:22 mod6: thanks asciilifeform :]

05:06:07 mod6: let me know how it goes. my full-sync test with the static bin is up to height=273236 currently.

05:06:21 mod6: i'll check back in tomorrow.

05:06:56 asciilifeform: i confess that i can't bring myself to run the thing that eats infinite memory, any more

05:07:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15900 @ 0.00041899 = 6.6619 BTC [+] {3}

05:07:36 mod6: i understand. i think the first objective will be to resolve that issue once we get the milestone "release" bundled up.

05:07:55 mod6: then that'll be another version bump & release in itself.

05:08:49 mod6: ok, im off for a bit. night #b-a!

05:18:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27910 @ 0.0004059 = 11.3287 BTC [-] {4}

05:39:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8300 @ 0.00040004 = 3.3203 BTC [-]

05:48:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17861 @ 0.00039583 = 7.0699 BTC [-] {3}

07:22:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9419 @ 0.00039861 = 3.7545 BTC [+]

07:44:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8650 @ 0.00039594 = 3.4249 BTC [-]

08:06:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16700 @ 0.00039594 = 6.6122 BTC [-]

08:14:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5350 @ 0.00039309 = 2.103 BTC [-]

08:19:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 88 @ 0.03401 = 2.9929 BTC [+]

08:21:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5300 @ 0.00039309 = 2.0834 BTC [-]

08:23:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4548 @ 0.00038978 = 1.7727 BTC [-] {2}

09:00:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19621 @ 0.00040252 = 7.8978 BTC [+] {2}

09:21:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11906 @ 0.00040472 = 4.8186 BTC [+]

09:22:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7494 @ 0.00040472 = 3.033 BTC [+]

09:33:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9538 @ 0.00040264 = 3.8404 BTC [-] {2}

09:55:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16450 @ 0.00040599 = 6.6785 BTC [+] {3}

10:15:30 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 425 @ 0.00474189 = 2.0153 BTC [-] {7}

10:16:31 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 243 @ 0.00474063 = 1.152 BTC [-] {6}

10:35:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20380 @ 0.00039375 = 8.0246 BTC [-] {2}

10:46:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.0004039 = 5.493 BTC [+]

10:55:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11850 @ 0.00039375 = 4.6659 BTC [-]

11:00:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.00040778 = 8.2372 BTC [+] {3}

11:20:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17900 @ 0.00039375 = 7.0481 BTC [-]

11:38:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12477 @ 0.00038844 = 4.8466 BTC [-] {3}

11:44:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24788 @ 0.00037813 = 9.3731 BTC [-] {3}

12:03:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26450 @ 0.00037186 = 9.8357 BTC [-] {2}

12:11:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00036667 = 5.7934 BTC [-] {4}

12:13:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12550 @ 0.0003589 = 4.5042 BTC [-]

12:32:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15972 @ 0.00038039 = 6.0756 BTC [+] {3}

12:35:59 chetty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_2lGkEU4Xs

12:36:00 assbot: malvina reynolds - little boxes - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1aPW26Q )

12:40:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29097 @ 0.00038699 = 11.2602 BTC [+] {2}

13:27:58 danielpbarron: height=253958 vs height=200309 (usb3: height=234842)

13:28:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20537 @ 0.00040221 = 8.2602 BTC [+] {2}

13:38:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00038094 = 6.7426 BTC [-] {2}

14:00:50 chetty: http://rt.com/news/238241-canadian-charged-cellphone-passcode/

14:00:51 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/17XXGle )

14:08:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17171 @ 0.00037164 = 6.3814 BTC [-]

14:15:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3650 @ 0.00037067 = 1.3529 BTC [-]

14:27:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8874 @ 0.00037067 = 3.2893 BTC [-]

14:31:14 mod6: up to height=288287 (static build)

14:35:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40477 @ 0.00037164 = 15.0429 BTC [+]

14:37:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6200 @ 0.00036961 = 2.2916 BTC [-] {2}

14:40:56 PeterL: does therealbitcoin list have an rss feed?

14:46:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5514 @ 0.00036719 = 2.0247 BTC [-]

14:54:55 jurov: no

14:55:08 jurov: just register as recipient?

15:01:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12880 @ 0.00036578 = 4.7112 BTC [-]

15:05:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8720 @ 0.00036578 = 3.1896 BTC [-]

15:18:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15300 @ 0.00036386 = 5.5671 BTC [-] {2}

15:27:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33900 @ 0.00036474 = 12.3647 BTC [+] {3}

15:28:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3800 @ 0.0003605 = 1.3699 BTC [-]

15:35:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6784 @ 0.00035904 = 2.4357 BTC [-] {2}

15:37:55 BingoBoingo: http://forum.utorrent.com/topic/95041-warning-epicscale-riskware-silently-installed-with-latest-utorrent/

15:40:03 davout: this kind of stuff will probably happen more and more

15:42:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5918 @ 0.00037164 = 2.1994 BTC [+]

15:58:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15050 @ 0.00039092 = 5.8833 BTC [+]

16:01:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37750 @ 0.00040972 = 15.4669 BTC [+] {4}

16:30:01 jurov: ^ heh these utorrent forums. "account suspended"

16:31:33 nubbins`: chetty it amazes me that people still carry non-wiped devices over int'l borders

16:32:06 nubbins`: FWIW canada customs have consistently provided me with the least-pleasant border crossing experiences of any agency

16:33:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11300 @ 0.00041394 = 4.6775 BTC [+]

16:40:14 chetty: only safe place is inside your head, for now

16:42:34 chetty: although I have crossed boarders in last year a few times with no problems, I am always ready

16:44:17 PeterL: you made renters angry?

16:47:44 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/03/crapware-still-bundles-mining-software/

16:48:42 chetty: and I can't type either :/

16:54:35 danielpbarron: "Noticed the laptop was 'laggy' and then I saw the mysterious E in the taskbar. Blamed the kids again but then I saw the Utorrent update comments and bingo, me too," Ian notes. << people with children are pirating movies?

16:55:26 PeterL: why would people with children be different?

16:57:03 *: danielpbarron shrugs

17:17:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15500 @ 0.00041633 = 6.4531 BTC [+] {2}

17:34:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22000 @ 0.00041863 = 9.2099 BTC [+] {5}

17:42:12 thestringpuller: dead as fuck in here today

17:42:58 PeterL: no kidding

17:43:28 PeterL: deader, unless you are a necrophile

17:44:40 thestringpuller: Everyone has meatspace things to do!

17:51:59 asciilifeform: re: border searches - interestingly, if your cargo doesn't look like consumer electronics, the inspectors tend to ignore it (granted that it doesn't pattern-match 't3rr0r1s7!!!111')

17:52:34 PeterL: example?

17:53:25 asciilifeform: PeterL: when i went to mircea_popescu's conference-2, had an attache of rng samples, which nobody at any of the borders was interested in so much as opening much less demanding to know how to plug them in

17:54:10 asciilifeform: i found this odd enough to still wonder why

17:54:38 mike_c: they didn't want to make you suspicious so you wouldn't see the people following you.

17:54:45 asciilifeform: might have to do with 'lottery' system for inspections

17:54:48 PeterL: if you had one in your pocket instead of in case, would they have been interested by it?

17:55:33 asciilifeform: generally you have to 'win' the 'lottery' to get the full-bore arse search

18:01:11 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by PeterL: http://qntra.net/2015/03/summary-of-mpex-stocks-and-funds-february-2015/

18:04:38 danielpbarron: PeterL, something's not right with the beginning of the MiniGame paragraph

18:05:00 PeterL: BingoBoingo: the link for s.mg is not closed, could you fix?

18:05:32 PeterL: just needs a >S.MG</a> in there

18:07:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00041389 = 2.3178 BTC [-]

18:08:06 BingoBoingo: fxd

18:15:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13037 @ 0.00042204 = 5.5021 BTC [+]

18:18:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14633 @ 0.00042212 = 6.1769 BTC [+] {2}

18:24:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45300 @ 0.0004136 = 18.7361 BTC [-] {2}

18:25:03 trinque: asciilifeform: average border guard probably says 1) is he brown? 2) did any of our HYPER ADVANCED detectors smell bomb? 3) is he flagged for harassment 4) does he look afraid

18:25:39 trinque: I have a family member that's tagged for harassment at the border for political involvement in the 70s

18:38:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00041996 = 7.3493 BTC [+] {3}

18:45:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9104 @ 0.00042301 = 3.8511 BTC [+] {2}

19:02:36 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.epicscale.com << the spamatronic 'cpu broker' used in the crapware described in recent qntra piece

19:02:37 assbot: Epic Scale ... ( http://bit.ly/1G7qOl8 )

19:02:45 asciilifeform: worth a mention somewhere?

19:03:26 asciilifeform: this one has a 'charity' flavour

19:03:35 asciilifeform: 'join our botnet voluntarily, save orphans!'

19:04:16 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Possibly. Mentioned by name in the linked TorrentFreak piece.

19:05:29 asciilifeform: aha

19:05:38 asciilifeform: but the sheer lameness, worth a discussion

19:06:01 asciilifeform: evidently they ran short of chumps dumb enough to install the thing voluntarily

19:06:14 asciilifeform: and had to try something new

19:07:28 BingoBoingo: There's been a number of these things. This was actually one of the business's "CoinLab" explored

19:10:48 BingoBoingo: The proposed a guarenteed payment pool for GPU miners where once ASICs arrived the GPUs would be aimed at other computing tasks

19:12:05 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: this type of chumpatron has a name, though i'm blanking on what it was

19:12:47 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: sometimes discussed in historical chumpatronics literature, re: schemes to 'invest in xxxx, and once it tanks, we'll buy it up for firewood we promise'

19:13:04 BingoBoingo: Ah

19:15:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3306 @ 0.00042314 = 1.3989 BTC [+]

19:15:26 mats: AAPL joins DJI

19:15:48 mats: replacing AT&T

19:40:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21600 @ 0.00042687 = 9.2204 BTC [+] {2}

19:47:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26349 @ 0.0004315 = 11.3696 BTC [+]

19:57:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10648 @ 0.00043451 = 4.6267 BTC [+]

20:02:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31100 @ 0.00040436 = 12.5756 BTC [-] {4}

20:28:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13500 @ 0.00039942 = 5.3922 BTC [-] {2}

20:31:17 PeterL: Trying to find a good link for this, http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/02/16/atf-trying-to-ban-ar15-ammo-under-guise-of-law-enforcement-safety-n1957622

20:31:18 assbot: ATF Trying to Ban AR-15 Ammo Under Guise of "Law Enforcement Safety" - Katie Pavlich ... ( http://bit.ly/1KyOxBe )

20:31:56 PeterL: maybe asciilifeform 's desire to make bullet in jungle conditions is more urgent than we thought?

20:33:07 asciilifeform: PeterL: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-02-2015#1034504 << original thread here

20:33:07 assbot: Logged on 26-02-2015 17:54:22; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it was clear to anyone who gives a fuck that usg would target ammunition, rather than small arms per se, when it 'gets serious'

20:33:50 PeterL: Apparently the government has started changing the rules, then asking for public comment (which they then ignore)

20:34:20 asciilifeform: PeterL: small nuance here, also. the 'jungle shells' don't have to actually be made to work, in a sense. think about how the 'gavin fork' thing, which died - or at least went into hibernation - merely from knowing that response is ready

20:34:26 asciilifeform: sorta like the logic of nuke war

20:34:32 chetty: they even ignore the courts, why bother with the silly 'public'

20:35:09 trinque: I don't see how national-scale weapons control could be implemented in the US

20:35:22 trinque: they can try; there are hordes of rednecks in the woods already stocked up for armageddon

20:35:25 asciilifeform: trinque: it mostly was in '68

20:35:50 chetty: walk softly and carry a big stick won't ever change, at least not the big stick part :)

20:36:14 trinque: asciilifeform: I think people who never leave cities tend to forget how much weaponry is just outside

20:36:23 trinque: and people who actually know how to use them

20:36:51 asciilifeform: the 'hordes' are dealt with in the same way as anarchists 100 years ago - moles, stoolies, provocateurs, and, if these fail, massed attack with costly 20th c. armour/aviation

20:37:23 asciilifeform: (today's substitute for the maxim gun of the pinkertons, you could say)

20:38:28 asciilifeform: if there were a 'rural militia' with above room-temperature iq, usa would already look like iraq

20:38:36 asciilifeform: it doesn't. ergo, there isn't.

20:38:53 danielpbarron: perhaps it'll be like with legal weed -- permitted to do bitcoin, or permitted to own a gun. choose one.

20:39:05 asciilifeform: wai wat

20:39:23 trinque: asciilifeform: I don't think things have gotten bad enough yet for them, the rednecks

20:40:20 chetty: yeah, need the bubba effect to kick in

20:40:44 trinque: I could see someone clever turning them into a far-right movement of some kind

20:41:07 trinque: invoke the "end times", etc

20:41:27 asciilifeform: trinque: as i understand, this isn't ru circa 1917, the hypothetical rebels don't 'just want to be left alone' - not one in ten thousand is able to grow anything edible without regular deliveries of petrol, pesticides, etc.

20:41:39 chetty: right? left? too the moon might as well be. right and left don't make sense anymore

20:41:48 asciilifeform: washington doesn't need to 'waco' them - just to stop sending the trucks (command economy, recall?)

20:42:12 asciilifeform: what's more, the would-be mutineers mostly know this.

20:42:42 trinque: asciilifeform: how collapsed are we considering?

20:42:44 asciilifeform: when they go to the forest and blast away at bull's eyes, it's really a psychological release

20:42:54 trinque: enough for pieces of the military to break off and start fighting for texas?

20:43:01 asciilifeform: trinque: usa is what anthropologists call a 'palace economy'

20:43:18 asciilifeform: what are the folks 'fighting for texas' eating?

20:43:26 trinque: mexicans?

20:43:29 trinque: lol, just kidding

20:43:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15425 @ 0.00041173 = 6.3509 BTC [+] {3}

20:44:32 bitstein: asciilifeform: bbq of course, http://franklinbarbecue.com/

20:44:34 assbot: Franklin Barbecue ... ( http://bit.ly/1A4Qqvp )

20:44:52 trinque: bitstein: austin resident?

20:45:11 asciilifeform: is this roughly analogous to marie antoinette's cake ?

20:45:18 bitstein: trinque: yep

20:45:32 trinque: bitstein: nice! I lived there for years, grew up in houston

20:46:24 danielpbarron: I once visited a false church community in waco, tx (no relation to that other thing) and they seemed capable of sustaining themselves independent of any supply lines. But maybe all the ground tilling was just for show -- I didn't stay there year-round; just for a week for their "harvest festival"

20:46:50 trinque: danielpbarron: my parents have a farm that produces far in surplus of what they need

20:47:00 trinque: the problem being the neighbors of course, in such a situation

20:47:22 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: 100% closed cycle? no one taking modern pharma products of any kind? no electrical devices ? lit with candles, made of animal fat ? etc

20:47:34 danielpbarron: a lot of them had iPhones

20:49:01 PeterL: danielpbarron: I imagine they have to import metal to make their farm implements, or are they doing mining and refining too?

20:49:10 danielpbarron: and come to think of it, a lot of their industry was exporting to outsiders. things like "hand made whatever"

20:49:20 trinque: PeterL: you don't need infinite amounts of tools, once you have them

20:49:23 trinque: and enough spare parts

20:49:39 PeterL: but tools do not last forever

20:50:13 trinque: this idea that people cannot possibly survive without vast supply chains is pretty new...

20:50:36 danielpbarron: i still have those gloves and hat. not gonna say it isn't high quality.

20:50:42 trinque: I mean if we're headed back to the stone age, might as well eat a bullet in that situation

20:51:31 trinque: asciilifeform: were all (former) Soviets growing their own food?

20:51:38 trinque: I'd expect they were living off the state's teat mostly

20:51:42 trinque: but could be way off

20:51:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-11-2013#393769

20:51:56 assbot: Logged on 26-11-2013 17:41:46; asciilifeform: "There's a shift in people's thinking as essential items become scarce. They believe that... hoarders created the shortage... if someone can establish such a link between the crisis and you, you have a problem.'

20:52:18 trinque: of course, yet what, 5% population decline, maybe 10?

20:52:27 asciilifeform: trinque: accurate data is hard to come by, but at one point something like 80% of the calories consumed came from amateur gardens

20:53:05 trinque: asciilifeform: I would want to know whether that was mostly a reaction after collapse, or something which people had in advance

20:53:07 asciilifeform: trinque: try to remember the substantial differences between the two empires

20:53:16 trinque: actually "in advance" would make sense if there were ongoing shortages

20:53:22 asciilifeform: no one in ussr could be evicted from their income suddenly zeroing;

20:53:33 asciilifeform: major cities did not have populations of orcs ready to riot and burn;

20:53:45 asciilifeform: the heat - mostly stayed on; etc

20:53:54 trinque: that sounds like surviving 3 weeks in the woods at most though

20:54:04 trinque: pick a spot far enough that no one hungry is going to wander there on foot

20:54:13 trinque: let the cities burn themselves out

20:54:16 asciilifeform: and live there for the rest of your life ?

20:54:32 asciilifeform: you're still thinking in terms of temporary disruptions in 'business as usual'

20:54:51 PeterL: wait out collapse, then return to scrounge resources from ruins?

20:55:01 asciilifeform: even in a very optimistic scenario like ussr, the disappearance of 'business as usual' could last for decades.

20:55:29 asciilifeform: PeterL: only in hollywood films do burned out husks of cities contain anything you would like to pick up - vs. corpses and unexploded ordnance

20:56:08 trinque: asciilifeform: I don't mean that I'd return to the city 3wks later

20:56:09 PeterL: I was just trying to finish trinque's idea of hiding in the woods for 3 weeks

20:56:09 danielpbarron: is it foolish to assume that I can bribe my way out of catastrophe?

20:56:23 PeterL: danielpbarron: yes

20:56:23 trinque: I mean the cities wont be a risk to the rural areas after some period of starvation

20:56:30 asciilifeform: somehow everybody (at least every adult male) thinks that he's the clever bugger who will notice the things everyone else has overlooked, survive catastrophes that put the rest of the area to bed for good, etc.

20:56:52 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it isn't foolish, but the time to do so is strictly -before-

20:56:57 asciilifeform: when the planes are still flying

20:57:00 trinque: asciilifeform: well you at least fight back as the knife's plunged in

20:57:27 danielpbarron: i don't think i'll be rich enough to bribe my way out until -after- it begins

20:57:51 asciilifeform: trinque: i'm specifically addressing the fantasies of 'survive' rather than 'die with honour' (there'll be death of every kind available to all-comers, then)

20:57:55 trinque: danielpbarron: someone will just beat the private keys out of you

20:58:09 trinque: asciilifeform: ah, I agree that I'm probably dead

20:58:18 trinque: this is more a question of what to do until then

20:59:14 trinque: no worse than the situation was before though, right?

20:59:25 trinque: I'm as good as dead no matter what I'm doing, given a long enough timeline

20:59:56 trinque: but, one will still try to increase his chances even as lowered into the oil

21:00:46 danielpbarron: i'm probably in the *worst* place to be when this stuff goes down, although asciilifeform's locale doesn't sound very pleasant either

21:00:46 PeterL: asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it isn't foolish, but the time to do so is strictly -before- << surviving is dependent on having useful skills and wot connections to others with skills, the time to gain these is also strictly -before-

21:02:51 asciilifeform: iirc we spoke re: the sewer pumps here at least once

21:03:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-06-2014#735017

21:03:56 assbot: Logged on 27-06-2014 04:19:50; asciilifeform: speaking of sewage, i recently had occasion to learn the details behind herr orlov's assertion that usa minus mains current will drown in own shit

21:03:58 asciilifeform: ^ thread

21:06:18 cazalla: danielpbarron, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2015#1044264 <<< i've managed to watch maybe 2-3 movies from start to end since son was born.. maybe the guy's kids are older but that just seems to take even more free time away

21:06:18 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 16:54:35; danielpbarron: "Noticed the laptop was 'laggy' and then I saw the mysterious E in the taskbar. Blamed the kids again but then I saw the Utorrent update comments and bingo, me too," Ian notes. << people with children are pirating movies?

21:10:10 cazalla: the majority of movies are shit anyway so even if i had the time to watch them on the reg, they are not even worth pirating

21:18:18 trinque: asciilifeform: I'd think there's enough talent right here to escape a gravity well

21:19:30 asciilifeform: trinque: escape from gravity well is the most personal matter imaginable

21:19:39 asciilifeform: trinque: something each of us must solve entirely on his own

21:19:55 trinque: that seems foolish, though sure, I'm making my own moves aside from derping here

21:20:04 trinque: a big, profitable company would hurt how?

21:20:31 asciilifeform: trinque: there's a reason i used rocketry as the analogy

21:21:20 asciilifeform: getting just one person (not even talking about family, friends, pets, possessions, etc) permanently out of not only usa but the nato financial octopus - is probably more expensive than launching it into orbit

21:21:39 asciilifeform: if you -actually- tally up the costs, realistically

21:22:04 asciilifeform: and i am specifically not speaking of mircea_popescu's favourite 'rescue animals', young gurlz

21:22:10 trinque: lol

21:22:14 asciilifeform: speaking of everything -else-

21:22:28 asciilifeform: other lifeforms that don't have a zoo ready to house them gratis

21:23:11 jurov: what is "nato financial octopus"?

21:23:47 asciilifeform: jurov: the loose set of all banks that play ball with usg, all locales where there isn't an icbm battery between you and usg, etc

21:24:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00039383 = 9.0975 BTC [-] {3}

21:24:35 cazalla: BingoBoingo, maybe should've saved the utorrent forum complaints.. forum offline now lol

21:25:02 asciilifeform: trinque: the hypothetical 'mutual assistance' org you suggest would roughly resolve to a 'society for let's we all get filthy rich, and not warren-buffet-usg-rich either, but mircea_popescu-rich'

21:25:05 BingoBoingo: cazalla: I missed that window

21:25:09 asciilifeform: which is generally not how it works.

21:25:41 trinque: well not mutual assistance and not an org

21:25:45 asciilifeform: anyone who offers to 'help you get rich' in specifically these terms is either a imbecile or sc4mz0r

21:25:56 trinque: for example if there was a tiny rasp-pi sized lisp machine, I think that'd be sellable

21:26:06 trinque: I don't want help; I have my own businesses

21:26:22 trinque: point being that no matter what's going on in the world at large, there are products to sell

21:26:24 asciilifeform: trinque: a pocket-sized fission power plant would also be 'sellable'

21:26:27 trinque: asciilifeform: your cardano, perfect example

21:26:51 trinque: asciilifeform: sure but that's hyperbolic compared to "I can attach this to a printer, card scanner, whatever, and it does what it is told"

21:27:16 asciilifeform: trinque: if you don't understand that this costs ~$trillion and requires a sovereign country in your pocket, you have not thought the matter through.

21:27:52 asciilifeform: i might exaggerate slightly, but at any rate it won't be accomplished by a fella with a day job.

21:28:11 trinque: asciilifeform: sure; yet I think people forget millions can be made owning a chain of car washes

21:28:16 trinque: geniuses especially

21:28:30 asciilifeform: trinque: 'millions can be made' doing nothing but snorting coke

21:28:34 asciilifeform: if you're a u.s. blue-blood

21:31:31 trinque: ehhh, you can still start businesses in the US

21:31:34 trinque: you just have to be willing to starve

21:31:58 trinque: and/or to lower yourself a bit

21:32:22 trinque: plenty of retards out there owning strip clubs, parking garages, snow plow companies

21:32:56 trinque: and also in particular, astoundingly shitty software companies that can be bested without much effort

21:35:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.0003986 = 6.3776 BTC [+] {2}

21:36:03 trinque: along those lines I am really starting to consider moving back to TX

21:36:20 trinque: no state income tax, cheap-as-hell rent

21:36:30 trinque: *booming* economy

21:52:27 asciilifeform: trinque: i'll be the last to disagree that it's still possible, today, to squeeze out a 'living' doing something in usa. question is how long it will remain true, for one's particular profession, for particular locale (do you like drilling for oil?), etc

21:54:24 asciilifeform: trinque: also understand that even if you get 'usa-rich' it does not automatically translate to freeworld-rich.

21:54:51 asciilifeform: (see the numerous old 'exit tax' threads here and elsewhere)

21:56:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://fraudsters.com/2015/a-sjsqd-walks-into-a-pub/#comment-112528

21:56:59 assbot: A sjsqd walks into a pub... pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg2Fbg )

22:00:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i like PeterL's suggestion

22:00:16 mircea_popescu: it's not bad.

22:00:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: though i still insist that 'red' cryptomaterial should not touch the networked box

22:00:47 asciilifeform: that is, the extant wallet&node combo kitchen-toilet is pure lunacy

22:01:58 mircea_popescu: surely.

22:02:23 mircea_popescu: ideally you want exactly what ben_vulpes was proposing : a node server with a wallet client

22:02:45 asciilifeform: every node is already a 'wallet client'

22:02:47 mircea_popescu: but even admitting this were done correctly, the problem still remains of what txn the client should order broadcast.

22:02:56 asciilifeform: (in that it can swallow a tx if fed)

22:03:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kinda how sane people use this : wallet on a system behind a node system in a nat.

22:03:24 mircea_popescu: !up sjsqd

22:03:47 sjsqd: hi

22:03:57 mircea_popescu: hello.

22:04:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6085 @ 0.00039974 = 2.4324 BTC [+]

22:04:07 sjsqd: was trying to sign up for your site but it forwards to a blank page

22:04:28 mircea_popescu: what exactly did you do ?

22:04:28 sjsqd: otherwise still also trying to read through 6 months of IRC logs haha

22:04:36 sjsqd: put in my email and 10,000 credits and pressed submit

22:05:12 mircea_popescu: hm. that's odd, it shouldn't do that.

22:05:19 sjsqd: the page that shows as being blank = http://fraudsters.com/wp-content/themes/fraudsters/fraudsters_credits.php

22:05:20 assbot: fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg469E )

22:09:42 mircea_popescu: do you have redirects disabled maybe ?

22:09:53 mircea_popescu: also, make sure you typed the email address correctly.

22:10:51 mircea_popescu: $ curl -IL http://fraudsters.com/wp-content/themes/fraudsters/fraudsters_credits.php | more

22:10:52 assbot: fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg4YuM )

22:10:52 mircea_popescu: HTTP/1.1 302 Moved Temporarily

22:10:52 mircea_popescu: Location: http://fraudsters.com

22:10:52 assbot: fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg4XqR )

22:11:15 sjsqd: email address is correct

22:11:27 sjsqd: and I don't think I have redirects disabled

22:15:55 sjsqd: I tried a few different options on my computer but got the same result

22:16:17 mircea_popescu: ahahaha you found a bug

22:16:35 mircea_popescu: if you fill in with something other than 10k or with nothing at all it works.

22:16:42 mircea_popescu: if however you explicitly specify the default...

22:16:43 mircea_popescu: lmao

22:17:09 sjsqd: haha

22:18:39 sjsqd: I'm pretty sure I tried another figure but yes you're correct it works now

22:26:57 mircea_popescu: sjsqd also, get in the wot.

22:27:14 sjsqd: yes I will I briefly read about it earlier

22:27:48 sjsqd: I've just had quite a few things on at the moment, otherwise I would be a bit more active

22:27:59 sjsqd: but I do find this channel and the websites/sources surrounding it interesting

22:31:01 mircea_popescu: !up airgapped

22:32:20 airgapped: mircea_popescu: thanks

22:32:45 airgapped: http://airgapped.net/2015/03/building-bitcoin-node-on-raspberry-pi-2/

22:32:46 assbot: Building Bitcoin node on Raspberry Pi 2 | Airgapped ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg7L7e )

22:32:50 mircea_popescu: sure.

22:33:19 airgapped: ^ including for reference, may be usefull for someone

22:34:25 mircea_popescu: i don't recall why we didn't like the pi for this purpoise, but it's in teh logs.

22:34:42 trinque: paging asciilifeform

22:35:12 airgapped: this one is new, more RAM, so far rock solid

22:35:51 mircea_popescu: how much ram does it have now ? 4g ?

22:36:00 airgapped: 1g

22:36:05 danielpbarron: looks like it's just more expensive

22:36:11 trinque: mystery binary blob drivers are required to run the thing

22:36:14 danielpbarron: the pogo is < 20 USD

22:36:31 airgapped: working on pogo as we speak

22:36:40 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron more a case of "there's all these people who got pis because excitement, now have nothing to use them for", i thought,

22:36:49 mircea_popescu: so in that sense, it costs zero.

22:37:11 airgapped: yes, the blob is there

22:37:25 mircea_popescu: yeah, that's what it was.

22:37:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 46 @ 0.03400002 = 1.564 BTC [-] {2}

22:37:53 danielpbarron: airgapped, you might be intrested in this -> http://danielpbarron.com/pogo/howto.txt

22:37:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg8sxe )

22:37:55 airgapped: so for me this is also temp solution

22:37:58 mircea_popescu: the pi is currently being worked on as a first example of a fully fits in head machine.

22:38:11 mircea_popescu: sorry i mean the pogo not the pi

22:38:16 airgapped: thanks will look at it

22:38:30 danielpbarron: still a work in progress, see also the root directory of that file

22:38:44 airgapped: also on my desk VoCore

22:38:53 airgapped: next in line

22:39:30 mircea_popescu: airgapped you should prolly get in the wot while at it.

22:39:43 airgapped: danielpbarron: nice, mised it in the logs

22:39:51 cazalla: ;;later tell bingoboingo enjoy :) i didn't end up drinking last night so no issues there

22:39:51 gribble: The operation succeeded.

22:40:01 airgapped: I'm in the wot

22:40:28 danielpbarron: airgapped, the WoT forked

22:40:51 mircea_popescu: !gettrust airgapped

22:40:51 assbot: airgapped is not registered in WoT.

22:41:09 airgapped: OK, so I need some help

22:41:09 mircea_popescu: <airgapped> I'm in the wot < since when ?

22:41:33 airgapped: registered few days ago

22:41:37 mircea_popescu: airgapped http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/assbot <

22:41:38 assbot: irc_bots:assbot [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg8Xrk )

22:41:41 danielpbarron: he did it the gribble way

22:42:03 mircea_popescu: if you were in gribble pre 2015, you were imported. otherwise, gotta reg your key with assbot.

22:42:39 airgapped: have registered it with gribble

22:42:51 airgapped: should do the same with assbot?

22:43:02 mircea_popescu: so then it's halfa minute. yeah, see the link for commands.

22:43:16 airgapped: thanks, will do

22:44:10 pete_dushenski: purim scoop: http://www.contravex.com/2015/03/06/signing-a-shoe-is-the-same-as-signing-the-papers/

22:44:11 assbot: Signing a shoe is the same as signing the papers. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg9mKe )

22:47:24 airgapped: !register 178BF6EEA4C3A737F70878AC5E40172FEBBA0713

22:47:24 assbot: Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: 178BF6EEA4C3A737F70878AC5E40172FEBBA0713. This may take a few moments.

22:47:24 assbot: Key EBBA0713 / "airgapped <airgapped@countermail.com>" successfully imported.

22:47:24 assbot: Registration successful.

22:47:38 pete_dushenski: eh wd.

22:48:51 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 27 @ 0.03753703 = 1.0135 BTC [+] {2}

22:48:53 pete_dushenski: airgapped i'm guessing https://twitter.com/airgapped is you ?

22:48:55 assbot: Airgapped (@airgapped) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bg9REh )

22:50:02 airgapped: pete_dushenski: yes

22:50:43 danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.airgapped.1:b3f7991004a4bbbbd349279c39bb1e5431f940bcc8e103b36d37d3d83b3ae7f6

22:50:43 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for airgapped with note: Working on the pogo thing.

22:50:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7008 @ 0.00039911 = 2.797 BTC [-]

22:51:18 airgapped: danielpbarron: thanks

22:51:20 pete_dushenski: airgapped cool.

22:51:36 pete_dushenski: airgapped so what's your background ?

22:51:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17100 @ 0.00040988 = 7.0089 BTC [+] {4}

22:52:13 airgapped: embedded, crypto

22:53:42 pete_dushenski: crypto i get, but what's 'embedded' ?

22:54:07 airgapped: embedded microcontrolers

22:54:20 airgapped: ARM based mostly

22:56:15 mircea_popescu: !rate airgapped 1 New blood

22:56:15 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/48cd0483320774d1

22:56:20 pete_dushenski: ah neat.

22:56:39 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.airgapped.1:9fdc995fb92b89f46ae90459ad60e2b6c87f4627292744d93d9e0c7c8f3f0be7

22:56:39 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for airgapped with note: New blood

22:57:00 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell peterl since you asked : http://fraudsters.com/2015/fderp-janyary-february-2015-combined-statement/

22:57:00 assbot: F.DERP Janyary - February 2015 Combined Statement pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BgaYUc )

22:57:00 gribble: The operation succeeded.

22:57:28 mike_c: heh, i kind of like that better. "janyary"

22:57:50 pete_dushenski: airgapped so are you working in the field currently ? or is this more of a hobby of yours ?

22:58:33 jurov: <mircea_popescu> i don't recall why we didn't like the pi for this purpois << alf proclaimed it as depending on binary turd (that supposedly leaks key material by any channel conceivable), thus unworthy

22:59:32 jurov: oh and mircea_popescu withdrawals pls

22:59:43 airgapped: pete_dushenski: working, I specialize in "secure" microcontrolers

23:00:47 pete_dushenski: is there such a thing as 'secure' arm ?

23:01:00 pete_dushenski: i'm under the impression, though hardly an expert, that there isn't.

23:06:11 pete_dushenski: http://qntra.net/2015/03/14-bidders-34-bids-in-latest-usms-bitcoin-auction/#comment-13004 << first i've heard of 'coin'

23:06:11 assbot: 14 Bidders 34 Bids In Latest USMS Bitcoin Auction | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1GrQ7lA )

23:08:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8700 @ 0.00041098 = 3.5755 BTC [+]

23:09:05 mike_c: you just haven't heard the name. it's the winklevii etf.

23:10:56 pete_dushenski: o that's right.

23:11:06 pete_dushenski: lol kinda even funnier now

23:11:10 mike_c: yeah :)

23:11:17 pete_dushenski: i thought it was some white-list or something

23:11:24 pete_dushenski: or other 2.0 thing

23:15:37 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2015#1044120 << burn baby burn.

23:15:37 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 03:30:18; mircea_popescu: and that is, joining the wot early, and helping set the world on fire. it. strictly it.

23:16:09 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/fderp-janyary-february-2015-combined-statement/

23:16:14 thestringpuller: its a canadian eh?

23:17:13 pete_dushenski: lol hey man.

23:17:33 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2015#1044256 << this is no surprise, people watch tv, eat at mcd's, etc.

23:17:33 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 16:31:33; nubbins`: chetty it amazes me that people still carry non-wiped devices over int'l borders

23:17:39 pete_dushenski: 'people'

23:19:39 jurov: well... if i wasn't on this chan, i'd easily ended up carrying any to/from canada

23:20:19 jurov: wiping both my ntb and phone would appear completely insane to me

23:20:28 kakobrekla: if you werent on this chan you could actually carry it as well hehe

23:21:17 jurov: wut?

23:21:20 pete_dushenski: are you calling him a fat desk-jockey ?

23:21:35 kakobrekla: well, now you are flagged suspekterorista

23:22:11 danielpbarron: what is to wipe on a phone that they don't already have? It's not like my keys are on the thing

23:22:38 pete_dushenski: pictures of yourself ripping bongs ?

23:23:24 danielpbarron: is that incriminating? could be anything in that bong!

23:23:45 danielpbarron: also, they already have those pictures, presumably

23:23:48 pete_dushenski: i'm pretty sure traveling is incriminating

23:24:19 jurov: but really, do they routinely rummage through photos and documents? and when i have virtualbox on desktop, will they ask me to fire all the vms, too?

23:24:19 pete_dushenski: 'you're going to join isis! i know it!'

23:24:46 pete_dushenski: jurov nah, it's just people getting fussed about the theatre

23:25:13 pete_dushenski: it's obvious that airport security is about as meaningfully useful as curtains on a submarine

23:25:14 danielpbarron: what if i'm caught traveling with my private key ascii armored and printed on a sheet of paper? do they even know well enough to ask for a passphrase?

23:25:15 kakobrekla: at this stage they wont check vms as they are pretending to check if device is real device or real bomb only.

23:25:58 jurov: inb4 virtualized bombs

23:26:21 kakobrekla: its anal rape half way only

23:26:45 kakobrekla: !s enemy half

23:26:46 assbot: 5 results for 'enemy half' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=enemy+half

23:27:04 kakobrekla: its there

23:27:04 danielpbarron: not that it matters, but telling a passphrase should surely be considered "testifying against yourself"

23:30:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5850 @ 0.00039911 = 2.3348 BTC [-]

23:33:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9100 @ 0.00039765 = 3.6186 BTC [-] {2}

23:36:06 asciilifeform: "secure" microcontrolers << ugh

23:36:54 pete_dushenski: my impression as well, if based on your impression ;)

23:37:35 asciilifeform: no srsly, not much special expertise needed to see why this is an Intrinsically Bad Idea (TM)

23:39:35 asciilifeform: if 'secure' but not user-verifiable, the only people against whom it attempts security is: you. the owner.

23:39:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8893 @ 0.00038911 = 3.4604 BTC [-] {3}

23:40:04 pete_dushenski: and are arm inherently not user verifiable ?

23:40:14 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: ic is inherently nonverifiable

23:40:39 asciilifeform: if you own electron microscope and have a couple of years free, and wish to do nothing else - then yes, possibly verifiable.

23:40:47 asciilifeform: doesn't matter if 'arm' or whatever.

23:41:18 asciilifeform: it is absolutely essential, to understand what is being spoken of here, to go back to the thread about the specificity of hardware-diddling.

23:41:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9300 @ 0.0003873 = 3.6019 BTC [-] {2}

23:41:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-02-2015#1024428 and below

23:41:56 assbot: Logged on 19-02-2015 04:39:24; asciilifeform: decimation: a diddled die of 100 gates in a tiled matrix will do what, exactly ?

23:42:12 asciilifeform: for the benefit of n00bs, i will briefly elaborate

23:42:29 asciilifeform: say the enemy is baking custom silicon -just to slip into my supply lines-

23:42:46 asciilifeform: say he can design anything, within reason, just in time

23:42:58 kakobrekla: !up airgapped

23:43:01 asciilifeform: his options depend on what i (think i am) buying

23:43:33 asciilifeform: if i'm buying a general-purpose cpu, and he does not have a precise bitwise knowledge of what i intend to run on it, his options are rather limited

23:43:54 airgapped: kakobrekla: thanks

23:44:06 asciilifeform: though if he can get a real-time covert channel into my unit, he can perhaps accomplish something with a simple 'hidden debug' trick

23:44:21 asciilifeform: if i'm buying 'fpga', and he doesn't have the exact bitstream, he's more or less shit out of luck

23:44:36 asciilifeform: but let's reverse course and suppose that i'm buying a very specific crypto asic

23:44:48 asciilifeform: that, say, cranks 8192-bit rsa.

23:44:50 asciilifeform: and nothing else.

23:45:11 asciilifeform: or, better yet, generates keys for such.

23:45:29 asciilifeform: then the question of what changes he ought to slip into the masks at the fab becomes absolutely trivial

23:45:34 asciilifeform: as in, undergrad-level problem.

23:45:53 asciilifeform: because he is no longer firing at a 'moving target' but a bull's eye, so to speak.

23:46:52 asciilifeform: to make long story short (i am quite uncertain that making it longer will improve the understanding of anyone who does not already grasp the above) -

23:47:07 asciilifeform: if you're buying dedicated 'crypto' silicon, on your own free will - you are a moron;

23:47:17 pete_dushenski: so the more specific the task of the chip, as is moreso the case with arm then general-purpose cpu, the easier it is to attack

23:47:26 asciilifeform: if you're selling it, having understood the above line of reasoning and can offer no meaningful counter - you are a scammer.

23:47:38 asciilifeform: if you are neither of these things, it is still useful to know who is one of these two things.

23:47:51 airgapped: asciilifeform: fully agree secure micro does not exists whatever some may claim

23:48:00 asciilifeform: airgapped: not merely 'not exists'

23:48:05 asciilifeform: is -intrinsic- snake oil

23:48:09 asciilifeform: like perpetuum mobile

23:48:17 asciilifeform: or 'free energy machine' as they tend to be called now

23:48:31 airgapped: yes, you ar eright

23:48:56 asciilifeform: airgapped: and yet you introduced this as your line of work? care to justify ?

23:49:31 asciilifeform: if somebody walks in and 'i drop screaming nuns out of helicopters for their insurance money' there'd better be a good story at least.

23:50:31 airgapped: working with microcontrolers

23:50:53 airgapped: adding crypto blocks/accelerators

23:51:02 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2015#1044590

23:51:02 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 22:59:43; airgapped: pete_dushenski: working, I specialize in "secure" microcontrolers

23:51:31 asciilifeform: airgapped: and it never once occurred to you that it was not an entirely honest line of work ?

23:51:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9682 @ 0.00040821 = 3.9523 BTC [+]

23:52:20 airgapped: yes they call it secure but I fully agree these are just micros with crypto accelertion

23:53:11 airgapped: trully secure processor does not exists

23:53:42 asciilifeform: airgapped: you still appear to be talking about it as something that could exist in essentially the same form pushed by scammers

23:54:13 asciilifeform: rather than an object that -categorically- does not exist, like a box inside which 1 == 2.

23:55:01 airgapped: no I have no illusion that secure processor exists

23:55:48 asciilifeform: airgapped: let's take your word. why, then, do you spend your days working on a problem to which the answer cannot exist ?

23:56:11 airgapped: the only option is airgapped machine and nothing beyod

23:56:35 asciilifeform: ^ doesn't answer my question

23:57:45 airgapped: interest in crypto algorithms and practical implementaitons

23:59:58 airgapped: translating crypto/math into implementaion running on small machines