Transcript for 07-01-2015, 1800 lines:
00:06:48 asciilifeform: http://cryptome.org/2015/01/snowden-nsa-pay-for-silence.htm << mega-lol
00:08:45 asciilifeform: 'PARASTOO IS INFORMING THAT "CPLD AND FPGA BITSTREAMS" RUNNING THE SECURITY MODULES IN BOTH GROUND STATIONS AND MANY OF THE HOVERING ACTUAL SATELLITES THAT ARE LINKED TO SOME TARGETED NOCs ARE FULLY DECRYPTED ..AND WE FOUND -- WHILE DOING SATANIC LAUGHS -- SOME OF THESE UGLY CODES ARE NOT EVEN COMPATIBLE WITH BASIC NIST'S FIPS SECURITY GRADE GIVEN TO THESE PRODUCTS WITH $+APPLAUSE .'
00:09:00 asciilifeform: ^ good 'dissociated press' (shannonizer) output? or actual human speaking ?
00:09:35 BingoBoingo: !up muh_buttcoins
00:09:44 muh_buttcoins: hi
00:10:02 BingoBoingo: Hallo muh_buttcoins
00:10:06 asciilifeform: any scholars of farsi lang. here ? is above a plausible eng. mistranslation? and if so, of what.
00:10:26 muh_buttcoins: is speculating on the price discouraged here
00:11:21 BingoBoingo: muh_buttcoins: Not entirely
00:11:55 muh_buttcoins: what % of your net wealth do you think is a good amount to invest in bitcoin
00:12:48 BingoBoingo: muh_buttcoins: It depends. What % of your net wealth do you presently depend on for provisioning a roof and some food?
00:13:40 muh_buttcoins: maybe 3-5%
00:14:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how would someone know if sometyhing's a mistranslation absernt source matrerial ?
00:14:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: occasionally there are idiomatic residual clues
00:14:30 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can't expect hard proof of anything whatsoever, sure.
00:14:49 asciilifeform: what, for instance, is 'doing satanic laughs ?'
00:15:01 BingoBoingo: Ah, in that case prolly no more than 97-95 percent so you don't starve or go homeless. Prolly keep the number lower than that though. Diversify get apartments in different cities around the world, ya know.
00:15:14 mircea_popescu: afaik no farsi in gtranslate, so there is that
00:15:16 asciilifeform: the mere emission of a 'muhahahaha' - or some more specific activity peculiar to reverse-engineering purloined fpga bitstreams ?
00:15:25 BingoBoingo: hanbot: Is that a comment or a article submission?
00:15:27 mircea_popescu: prolly laughing ass off.
00:15:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is marked 'persian' there.
00:16:00 mircea_popescu: muh_buttcoins http://fraudsters.com/2013/bitcoin-assets-rules-and-regulations/
00:16:06 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and works, about as well as russian-english (which is to say, very threadbare)
00:16:08 mircea_popescu: esp 2, interesting in your case.
00:16:42 mircea_popescu: so google for انجام می خندد شیطانی then
00:18:00 mircea_popescu: check it out, didn't break log! yay.
00:18:22 *: asciilifeform blows dust off textbook
00:18:27 muh_buttcoins: Do you guys think the Bitstamp owners stole the coins and made up the hacked story?
00:19:04 asciilifeform: muh_buttcoins: if you were to meet with proof that it was so, or was not so, would the coins thereby unsteal themselves ?
00:19:55 asciilifeform: muh_buttcoins: i'm genuinely curious as to why you would like to learn the answer to that question
00:20:24 muh_buttcoins: Just seeking opinions on it
00:20:32 asciilifeform: how could you ever hope to learn it?
00:20:48 mircea_popescu: blockchain technologies ?
00:20:50 muh_buttcoins: ...
00:20:58 muh_buttcoins: wat
00:23:30 mircea_popescu: anyway, go read the log, come back in half year or thereabouts.
00:23:47 asciilifeform: one time, isaac asimov (iirc ?) got tired of idiots badgering him with questions re: subjects in which he could not possibly give informed answer, and some of these even retorted with 'please just give me your gut feeling!' to which he answered that he does not think with his gut, and the questioner is welcome to keep the company of those who do - elsewhere.
00:28:40 kakobrekla: try harder next time.
00:29:04 mircea_popescu: it almost looks liek nippals
00:29:36 kakobrekla: bout 600 ips worth.
00:30:00 asciilifeform: 600?! why so threadbare.
00:30:42 kakobrekla: idk, twas a http flood , wp prolly
00:30:47 kakobrekla: i dont care enough to check the logs.
00:31:31 asciilifeform: there's an interesting similarity in the reactions of the freenode folks (quoted in earlier thread) and that of the wp fool (quoted in recent article on mircea_popescu's site)
00:31:39 asciilifeform: (reaction to learning of ddos)
00:32:03 kakobrekla: prolly same dude that is pestering fraudsters/qntra these days.
00:32:14 kakobrekla: only bb is up tho :p
00:32:37 asciilifeform: well yes, but the reactions of the 'nah it isn't our fault, and by the way have you tried plugging it in? and it ain't a bug, but a feature, at any rate'
00:32:53 kakobrekla: aha
00:32:54 mircea_popescu: i don't expect "the freenode folks" have technically very much at their disposal. this is the thing, frozen since the days lilo walked the earth.
00:33:14 mircea_popescu: they can sort-of push the levers, they can send over diddled code to whatever "specialists" never to be heard from again,
00:33:29 mircea_popescu: but on the whole... kinda mcdonald-ish, willy nilly.
00:33:54 asciilifeform: there's also the interesting fact (i shall offer no attempt at proof here) that a significant chunk of fleanode traffic is botnet c&c
00:34:56 asciilifeform: 'mcdonalds' is 'democratic' not only for leprous bomzhes, but for rats, mice, roaches.
00:35:10 mircea_popescu: that part nobody can actually do much against.
00:35:19 mircea_popescu: it's akin to saying that there's child porn in the blockchain. yes, of course there is.
00:35:25 asciilifeform: wouldn't suggest that it is their duty to play exterminator
00:35:27 mircea_popescu: what there isn't is "forbidden types of content"
00:35:41 asciilifeform: but when there are more mice than human eater in the restaurant, mass-wise, it reflects poorly.
00:35:59 mircea_popescu: well... humans are expensive.
00:36:06 artifexd: mircea_popescu: Do you envision the ircd project have the end goal of replacing the freenode #b-a channel or is it only supposed to be a way for one individual to communicate with another individual?
00:36:25 asciilifeform: artifexd: answer not obvious from the article ?
00:36:38 mircea_popescu: artifexd it's supposed to replace ircd as a secure, fast and reliable means to communicate directly with others.
00:37:08 mircea_popescu: arguably ircd isn't really any of these, but going by intent rather than practice.
00:37:25 *: asciilifeform also points out that, as written, apparatus is also meant to replace the classical 'wot'
00:37:35 mircea_popescu: obviously, will have to.
00:37:36 asciilifeform: or at least offer a parachute of it.
00:37:54 mircea_popescu: i thought about it for a while, but fundamentally, wot has a lot of trouble existing independent of the forum.
00:38:07 mircea_popescu: such as, in medieval times punishment lists were put out in the marketplace.
00:38:21 asciilifeform: as late as 18th c. actually.
00:38:24 mircea_popescu: right.
00:38:28 asciilifeform: as well as the actual punishments.
00:39:01 *: asciilifeform has been enjoying 'Seeing Justice Done. The Age of Spectacular Capital Punishment in France.' (Paul Friedland.)
00:39:36 mircea_popescu: (possibly the first in the trend of white trash "do-ologists", something that's apparently coming en vogue what with all the couch surfing entrepreneurs)
00:40:43 asciilifeform: i vaguely recall reading his obituary ?
00:41:08 mircea_popescu: yeah died at some point last decade
00:43:45 mircea_popescu: reading the comments, this new ircd thing is actually fucking exciting.
00:45:37 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by hanbot: http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-xoom-theft-and-the-future-of-the-dollar/
00:45:44 kakobrekla: yeah you basically invented ethereum or something
00:46:06 mircea_popescu: eh ?
00:46:39 kakobrekla: >As you well observe, this thing is in fact Bitcoin without the shared public ledger (kept instead as a virtual private ledger by each node).
00:46:46 kakobrekla: very blockchain 2.0
00:47:11 mircea_popescu: heh
00:47:29 mircea_popescu: srsly ?
00:47:48 asciilifeform: artifexd, others: http://fraudsters.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111236
00:48:39 artifexd: !s erasure coding
00:51:43 asciilifeform: artifexd: there are several known ways of doing a 'fountain code' (term of art) - where a bitstring, B, is transformed into a number, N, of shorter bitstrings, whereby X of N can be collected, in any order, and with certain quantity of errors permissible, to reconstitute B.
00:51:59 asciilifeform: X*N is naturally larger than B. by how much - depends on particular algorithm chosen.
00:53:25 asciilifeform: the most classic, 'naive' algo for this, known to nearly everyone under one name or another, is reed-solomon.
00:53:37 asciilifeform: but very high overhead.
00:54:05 mircea_popescu: right, this is an excessive approach
00:54:30 asciilifeform: this is one of the very few mathematical/computation subfields where there was real progress in the past twenty years.
00:54:34 artifexd: I fear that the more complicated the math, the more likely I am to screw it up.
00:54:43 asciilifeform: something like 'raptor' algorithm gives overhead of, iirc, 3-5%.
00:55:21 asciilifeform: artifexd: a good compromise, probably, would be the Luby transform.
00:55:40 asciilifeform: it can be implemented without unusual effort or mathematical education.
00:57:01 artifexd: Is "can be transmitted via carrier pigeon" really a priority for this project?
00:57:08 asciilifeform: not as such, imho
00:57:16 mircea_popescu: nah.
00:57:29 asciilifeform: but there is no particular reason to glue it to ip on protocol level
00:57:39 mircea_popescu: ideally we keep away from any really dumb ideas that'd prevent moving away from the current situation
00:57:45 mircea_popescu: but otherwisew this is supposed to work today.
00:58:04 asciilifeform: if you can get packet P from your box to other end, using paper letter, but not the net - should be able to do so
00:59:13 artifexd: TCP does offer advantages. Not having to reinvent/reimplement transmission reliability/ordering is not a minor thing.
00:59:22 mircea_popescu: agreed.
01:00:08 asciilifeform: not having to worry about syn floods, etc. plus frustrating most existing traffic analysis widgetry - udp, if done correctly, is a serious win
01:00:41 asciilifeform: the connection-tracking apparatus of tcp is really half the force behind the sting of 'ddos'
01:00:42 artifexd: syn floods are a solved problem
01:00:48 mircea_popescu: it requires someone to do it correctly.
01:01:19 asciilifeform: undergrad-level problem
01:01:38 mircea_popescu: artifexd that all depends. relativelysolved lol
01:02:56 artifexd: Boxes that sit in front of the server that establishes connections and only passes on the connected ones can be bought of the shelf, right?
01:03:13 mircea_popescu: everything can be bought of the shelf neh ?
01:05:22 asciilifeform: incidentally, here's a small idea. instead of transmitting snapshots of global state (of 'channel'), have each packet be a reconciliation of one particular pubkey's history. that way there is no need to reassemble gigantic blob.
01:05:46 artifexd: As far as traffic analysis goes, as long as all of the transmissions are opaque noise (because they are encrypted) and are of constant size, analysis is impossible.
01:06:07 asciilifeform: artifexd: it is also necessary that they have no temporal correlation to anything.
01:06:29 artifexd: Right. But "once a second" is in the first draft of the rfc.
01:06:42 asciilifeform: artifexd: this requires a fixed, steady flow of bits between the two points.
01:07:02 artifexd: Yes.
01:07:05 mircea_popescu: artifexd more's the point, i don't specifically give a shit about "analysis"
01:07:25 mircea_popescu: let the derps analyze it until they fall over. this retreat of person to "anonymity" is exactly the wrong strategic moves.
01:07:33 mircea_popescu: if the state controls the field of identity it doesn't need much more.
01:07:54 mircea_popescu: no, i shan't live by any entities' permission. the state will live by my permission, or go down in a hail of bullets and flame thrower exhaust.
01:08:13 asciilifeform: not suggesting that 'anonymity' warrants complicating design, but if it can be dropped by the gods from the sky at no cost, no reason not to pick up.
01:08:22 mircea_popescu: sure, that much.
01:09:45 mircea_popescu: on a more practical angle, you will note that the various entities relying on "secrecy" are in jail, from the pirate robets to the shrem dude. even "thanking the judge for a justice well done".
01:10:09 mircea_popescu: should be obvious that model does not work. it doesn't, specifically because it caters to the idiocy it proposes very flimsily to be "against".
01:10:10 asciilifeform: 'prison is like the grave, room can be found for everyone' (ru proverb)
01:10:33 artifexd: Fountain codes, insomuch as I don't understand them, complicate the design. Padding the the structure that gets encrypted doesn't.
01:10:50 artifexd: It is also possible that my own ignorance is complicating the design.
01:10:53 mircea_popescu: artifexd nothing prevents the thing to be further upgraded later on.
01:11:04 artifexd: true story
01:11:04 asciilifeform: artifexd: you don't strictly speaking need fountain code in first version of this apparatus.
01:11:07 mircea_popescu: for that matter, we have a much shittier version currently,
01:11:15 mircea_popescu: and it's worked nothing short of splendidly for many years.
01:11:48 mircea_popescu: improvements don't have to be absolute solutions to be useful. they just have to be absolute improvements.
01:11:51 asciilifeform: artifexd: i was trying to suggest another way whereby no packet needs to exceed udp's mtu in size, or be guaranteed to reach its destination in the first try
01:12:12 artifexd: 576 bytes ain't a lot of space.
01:12:15 asciilifeform: artifexd: this would be - to reconcile history per-pubkey, rather than global.
01:13:06 asciilifeform: 576 can hold a 2048-bit (ephemeral rsa key!) sig, a reasonably long key fp, and small payload.
01:13:06 mircea_popescu: another advantage to tcp is that you don't really get to care about mtus and all that.
01:14:04 asciilifeform: also appreciate a fine point:
01:14:09 mircea_popescu: it is in my eyes much more valuable to have a working prototype rapidly, that then can be extended (and nothing will prevent a future client to filter traffic any way itchooses, say by accepting udp only)
01:14:22 asciilifeform: with udp, a box running said protocol cannot be distinguished by enemy from one which is not
01:14:29 asciilifeform: if he is not physically sitting on the wire
01:14:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so ?
01:14:40 asciilifeform: if uninteresting, disregard.
01:14:47 mircea_popescu: if done right, a reasonable expectation will be that any box is running it anyway.
01:15:29 artifexd: Or just put it on port 80
01:15:40 asciilifeform: i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy
01:15:43 mircea_popescu: that's a bit rich.
01:15:45 asciilifeform: who likes things to be countable
01:15:50 asciilifeform: and 'quantifiable'
01:15:57 asciilifeform: 'threat assessment111!!!11'
01:15:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do not code for your enemy lol.
01:16:03 mircea_popescu: we're doing this for ourselves.
01:16:10 asciilifeform: when we make bullet - we make for enemy
01:16:13 asciilifeform: not usually for self
01:16:33 mircea_popescu: this is a tractor not a bullet.
01:16:41 asciilifeform: tractor with 'maxim.'
01:16:51 mircea_popescu: if the owner wieshes, sure.
01:18:00 asciilifeform: i wouldn't bother arguing the udp/tcp point were it not for the fact that this is not a decision that can be easily re-visited.
01:18:33 asciilifeform: for instance, if you immediately go with 4096-bit ephemeral keys, you're already at 512b. for sig alone.
01:18:35 mircea_popescu: why not ?
01:18:47 mircea_popescu: but there can be a later protocol extension covering udp
01:19:00 mircea_popescu: and it will get more eyeballs reading code on the strength of the already existing thing.
01:19:30 asciilifeform: it'll be a bit of a procrustean bed
01:19:33 mircea_popescu: fwiw i wouldn't use sub 4kb keys anyway.
01:19:38 asciilifeform: me neither
01:19:41 mircea_popescu: so then.
01:19:43 asciilifeform: but that was merely one example.
01:20:01 asciilifeform: (perfectly legit) question was 'wtf should we give a damn about udp mtu, it's a bore'
01:21:17 asciilifeform: answer is, for the same reason that, after a certain date, rifle calibers were X inch sixteenth lines and not some random contemporary fellow's little finger.
01:22:05 asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
01:22:13 asciilifeform: can silently drop it if 'foe.'
01:22:20 asciilifeform: without allocating memory.
01:22:38 asciilifeform: if it is not obvious why this is tremendously valuable, try to think about it for a few minutes.
01:23:12 *: asciilifeform will not waste the gentlemens' time by belabouring the point further
01:23:27 mircea_popescu: dude, it will be 5 years before anyone even figures out there's something to attack.
01:24:04 asciilifeform: actually i envision a department hastily assembled, of folks much like myself but underemployed, set to work on it.
01:25:01 mircea_popescu: heh.
01:25:07 mircea_popescu: in 2016.
01:25:10 mircea_popescu: and they'll fail.
01:25:55 asciilifeform: not even usg as such, needed for this. the crapware folks will readily latch on to anything like a solution to what ails them - which proposed apparatus is; and the antivirus folks will immediately proceed to piss out whatever fluids they can muster, against the problem
01:26:32 asciilifeform: if correctly built, apparatus will remain standing. but the notion that no one will see it fit to pour excrement upon the head of the early incarnation - is a mistake.
01:27:33 mircea_popescu: i'd bet you but we can't use bitbet because it doesn't take gavin btc.
01:27:40 asciilifeform: l0l
01:27:40 artifexd: I'm burning up a lot (ok, more than a few) credits on http://fraudsters.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/
01:27:57 mircea_popescu: artifexd now you are on to my secret plan
01:28:01 asciilifeform: artifexd: iirc comments on fraudsters don't require credits
01:28:16 artifexd: refreshing the page to see new comments does.
01:28:17 *: asciilifeform confesses that he has never purchased a credit on mircea_popescu's site...
01:29:52 mircea_popescu: artifexd use one more then, i answer't.
01:30:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: s/relied/relayed ?
01:31:02 artifexd: Oh! That shifts my interpretation somewhat.
01:31:03 mircea_popescu: is this ver's way of saying he can't afford anything bitcoin-related anymore, not even that thing in miami ?
01:31:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aye ty
01:31:52 mircea_popescu: artifexd i guess in retrospect the use of "for" was misguided. chetty warned me, too.
01:32:05 mircea_popescu: but it's for as in, "i am doing in the name of x, ie, for x"
01:32:54 artifexd: So the "Hi there" part could include destination information in addition to the message. Much like irc does now.
01:33:00 asciilifeform: i'd suggest term 'of', and use mathematical notation subkey(ofkey)
01:33:13 artifexd: XFF?
01:35:08 asciilifeform: artifexd: imho the 'hello' should stick to bare minimum - establishing the right of the interlocutor to speak to what is on the other end.
01:36:56 asciilifeform: if successful (he signed nonce with an ephemeral key for which the machine being spoken to possesses a valid primary wot-key signature, or is in fact transmitting a new ephemeral pubkey signed by such a wotkey) - this creates a session.
01:37:28 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Seems so. Or it means He's basically Shrem'd except exile instead of jail.
01:37:42 asciilifeform: artifexd: i will not belabour the point, i think you will arrive at the correct answers on your own. they will fall into place in your head.
01:37:49 mircea_popescu: qui facit per alium facit per se sort of "for"
01:37:50 asciilifeform: this is one of those problems where it is almost unavoidable.
01:38:02 mircea_popescu: artifexd yes, it could, of course.
01:50:22 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how do you plan to cook up a transaction dumping your coins that's valid on the gavinchain but not the mirceachain?
01:50:45 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: There are ways...
01:52:16 ben_vulpes: specifics, though, BingoBoingo
01:52:22 BingoBoingo: First step is to double spend such that confirmed coins from address A end up confirmed to a safe depth at different addresses B and C on the different forked chains.
01:52:42 BingoBoingo: B and C both still being addresses under your control
01:52:48 BingoBoingo: From there... party time.
01:52:50 Apocalyptic: that makes sense
01:53:35 BingoBoingo: Getting the coins differently spent safely to different addresses on each chain is the important part.
01:54:35 asciilifeform: artifexd, mircea_popescu, others - http://fraudsters.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111242
01:55:06 kakobrekla: https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/552087758370775040 < still looking for trouble i see.
01:56:52 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes if one block's large and the other small, all i need a tx that's included in the large block but not the small one. then doublespend it on the small one, which will be rejected necessarily by the large block blockchain
01:57:03 mircea_popescu: now i have bitcoin separated in two addresses, one for each chain.
01:57:42 mircea_popescu: the attempt may fail, but the cost to me of this failure is not significant, so i can keep on trying until it succeeds.
01:58:19 mircea_popescu: the only way to guard against it is, obviously,for the "large" chain to maintain 1:1 identity with the "small" one. because you don't just fork bitcoin.,
01:58:30 Apocalyptic: !up hanbot
01:58:33 ben_vulpes: i still fail to see how you're going to make a txn that gets included in the large block chain and not the small block chain.
01:58:36 hanbot: tyvm
01:58:40 ben_vulpes: anyways! i must off to tango lessons.
01:58:40 hanbot: BingoBoingo oh, i just thought i'd give the paragraph mp described a shot
01:58:51 mircea_popescu: (if it were that simple, teh enemies wouldn't be going through all the gymnastics & eating up all the frogs)
01:58:56 Apocalyptic: yw
01:58:57 artifexd: ben_vulpes: You don't. You keep sending money to yourself until it happens.
01:59:08 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what do you mean ? it necessarily will occur.
01:59:15 mircea_popescu: since one contains more txn than the other by definition.
01:59:43 mircea_popescu: suppose i make 50k 1btc txn. they don't fit in a 1mn block. they do fit in a 10mb block. what now ?
02:00:01 BingoBoingo: hanbot: Well, the first bullet on the subject missed and you politely loaded the chamber with a second so why not?
02:00:41 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the 'turn on your laptop to prove it isn't filled exclusively with trotyl' thing is rather tiresome. esp. since nothing keeps a miscreant from replacing only, e.g., half of the cells in his battery with plastique of similar shape and density.
02:01:20 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but even the public 'state of the art' was an israeli phone, successfully delivered to intended decapitee, which functioned as intended for a few minutes and then detonated on command.
02:01:20 ben_vulpes: i've not the mental horsepower to attack this right now. after tango tho.
02:01:32 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it presumably looked 'correct' on xray.
02:01:48 mircea_popescu: artifexd i wonder if for some god-forsaken reason the shitgnomes never actually considered this obviousness.
02:02:18 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Really for the purpose of passing airport security one could likely replace all but the volume of one cell with substance, power on from coin cells.
02:02:50 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo soon enough there's going to be a "no half empty batteries" rule then.
02:03:00 mircea_popescu: i'd lobby for that if i were a battery maker.
02:03:09 asciilifeform: neh
02:03:13 asciilifeform: no batteries, period.
02:03:24 asciilifeform: must rent in flight, if using, and re-purchase on other end.
02:03:45 asciilifeform: this will happen shortly prior to the 'naked anaesthetized flights'
02:03:49 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well i imagine sufficiently resourceful turrorist would make a normal looking to X-Ray evil battery pack
02:04:02 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: sop. israeli phone, etc
02:05:15 asciilifeform: this entire subject remaining a subject even in light of (reasonably well-known) fact of extant airplanes being remotely pwnable - is perplexing.
02:05:16 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Right. Prolly won't be long before ISIS seizes a medical xray and does some experimenting to catch up tp 5Is on this front
02:05:41 asciilifeform: 'pwnable' isn't even the right word
02:05:46 asciilifeform: they're approximately what ssl is.
02:06:07 asciilifeform: pre-masterkeyed. this was quietly ushered into being shortly post '9/11' and mostly forgotten about in public.
02:06:25 artifexd: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, et al: http://fraudsters.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111243
02:08:02 asciilifeform: artifexd: http://fraudsters.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111244
02:08:18 kakobrekla: 502 Bad Gateway
02:08:25 artifexd: O noes!
02:08:28 Apocalyptic: ^
02:08:35 asciilifeform: damn
02:08:40 artifexd: You broke it
02:08:58 Apocalyptic: the page is too successful
02:11:41 artifexd: Anybody have a good name for this project? ircd isn't going to cut it.
02:12:15 mike_c: why? let the other ircd change it's name.
02:12:28 asciilifeform: mike_c: terrible thing to do.
02:12:41 mike_c: just teasing the bitcoin foundation :D
02:12:51 asciilifeform: mike_c: phoundation - deserved the treatment; old warhorse irc - doesn't
02:14:30 BingoBoingo: ArseD?
02:14:59 asciilifeform: artifexd: if you're up for it, we can continue the thread here while fraudsters is down
02:15:16 artifexd: Sure
02:15:19 artifexd: What'd you say?
02:15:31 asciilifeform: artifexd: the mechanism for doing what ought to be done has a generic name: 'gossip protocol'
02:15:55 asciilifeform: that is, you utter a certain thing, or rather, sequence of things, and wish for said fact to become 'universal knowledge' at some point
02:16:31 asciilifeform: and it is accomplished by people talking to one another: 'have you heard xxxxx?' 'nope, do tell.' or 'sure, heard all about it.'
02:16:49 asciilifeform: bitcoin implements one variant of this.
02:17:50 asciilifeform: i will argue that you will want to, in general, 'hash-chain' all of your public (type 'a' in my last visible comment) messages.
02:18:21 mircea_popescu: it's down ?!
02:18:54 asciilifeform: hash-chain or some variation on that theme is the only way an operator can be certain of possessing an unbroken chain of what a particular key has uttered.
02:19:19 artifexd: Now you're talking about a lot of back and forth instead of the bundle approach.
02:20:09 artifexd: I could see the value in that if maintaining an unbroken history was important.
02:20:11 asciilifeform: if you take the bundle approach, you are suddenly faced with a multitude of very arbitrary decisions re: what ought to be included in bundle.
02:20:38 asciilifeform: thing is, you need a hard-reliable mechanism regardless of what you do, if only on account of having the WoT in this thing.
02:20:43 asciilifeform: so it may as well apply to everything.
02:20:53 asciilifeform: there is no reason to bring 'net splits' into existence again.
02:20:57 Apocalyptic: so is qntra for me
02:21:12 mircea_popescu: well i just responded...
02:21:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your site is down as seen from my perch
02:21:46 artifexd: If you do the gossip thing then each server needs to maintain a history (of possibly infinite length)
02:21:54 asciilifeform: like bitcoin.
02:21:55 mircea_popescu: http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/fraudsters.com
02:21:57 mircea_popescu: meanwhile...
02:22:01 artifexd: And now we have a blockchain growth problem.
02:22:07 asciilifeform: how is it a problem ?
02:22:15 mircea_popescu: srsly, no blockchain.
02:22:28 asciilifeform: no blockchain. just chain.
02:22:37 mircea_popescu: the messages should be kept around for a short interval (hour ?) while the user can retain them as long as he wants.
02:22:50 mircea_popescu: but basically the bundle should cover the last hour.
02:24:06 asciilifeform: if no chain: malicious node can selectively drop messages.
02:24:07 Apocalyptic: mircea, I get a timeout for both fraudsters and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly
02:24:27 asciilifeform: notice you don't have to store the chain permanently
02:24:30 asciilifeform: just rolling window.
02:24:45 asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: same here
02:24:46 artifexd: An hour? Shit. I was thinking 5 seconds.
02:24:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so ?
02:24:54 artifexd: If a bundle is sent every second.
02:25:19 mircea_popescu: artifexd ah that's a point. my 1hour was outer limit.
02:25:51 asciilifeform: a window of 5 seconds will give quite a few dropped messages.
02:26:04 mircea_popescu: this is likely actually.
02:26:24 asciilifeform: why not allow a node to store as much history as he wishes to expend on disk
02:26:35 mircea_popescu: because not its job.
02:26:35 artifexd: Why? If you're connected when a message comes across the wire, you get it. If not, you don't. Much like irc now.
02:26:37 asciilifeform: and synchronize based on histories of individual pubkeys
02:26:55 mircea_popescu: because it's chat. if someone wants to log it, that's a diff story.
02:27:19 asciilifeform: the distinction between 'log' and 'allow very high-latency chat' is very thin.
02:27:42 asciilifeform: if i'm on a satellite modem, i doubt that one in ten messages of 5-second window will make it through to my node.
02:28:45 artifexd: Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually.
02:28:53 asciilifeform: this apparatus of yours is not merely ircd with new coat of paint. it is a very different animal mathematically, as you lot will soon realize.
02:29:10 mircea_popescu: it's okay for slow nodes to lose messages
02:29:15 mircea_popescu: this is what the definition of "Slow" is.
02:29:30 mircea_popescu: if i were to connect to irc with a 360 baud modem i would similarily lose messages.
02:29:56 artifexd: asciilifeform: What you want sounds very similar to bitmessage, no?
02:30:04 asciilifeform: perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat.
02:30:09 asciilifeform: 'store and forward'
02:30:24 artifexd: usenet is pretty damn fast.
02:30:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not really a log-with-chat.
02:30:28 mircea_popescu: it's a chat.,
02:30:29 asciilifeform: the 300 baud modem loses no usenet messages.
02:30:40 mircea_popescu: yes, because they're not signed nor crypted.
02:30:47 asciilifeform: even when they are.
02:31:04 artifexd: The storage requirements for a usenet server are stupid high.
02:31:14 asciilifeform: except in degenerate case, where modem and owner both crumble to dust before the transmission can finish
02:31:18 asciilifeform: through the ravages of time
02:31:25 mircea_popescu: a 360 baud modem loses 99% of usenet messages out of a pipe which puts out 36kbps worth of messages continuously.
02:31:36 asciilifeform: well yes.
02:31:42 mircea_popescu: how you slice the 99% is uninteresting.
02:32:25 asciilifeform: now answer under what circumstances one can accept a loss of even one packet of WoT computation.
02:32:30 artifexd: Side question: How do you quote a previous comment on fraudsters?
02:32:49 mircea_popescu: <blockquote>
02:33:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's in the hello message.
02:33:20 asciilifeform: hence atomic operation, aha
02:33:32 mircea_popescu: each server sends its own view, you compile what interests you.
02:33:53 asciilifeform: inescapably one will end up seeing slightly different WoTs, at least on their peripheries, at different times.
02:34:00 asciilifeform: i doubt that this can be avoided entirely
02:34:01 mircea_popescu: necessarioly.
02:34:06 mircea_popescu: thjere is no such thing as "one" wot.
02:34:17 mircea_popescu: for that matter, a "total score" is nonsense predicated on this mistaken view.
02:34:19 mircea_popescu: there is no center wot.
02:34:24 asciilifeform: only if it, as it does presently, lives in just one specially-designated temple
02:34:29 mircea_popescu: right.
02:34:38 mircea_popescu: which is kind-of why the "total score" nonsense is so hard entrenched.
02:34:53 mircea_popescu: the current implementation favours what is fundamewntally an erroneous view of thew wot as "one thing". it is not one thing.
02:34:58 asciilifeform: i've been wishing that folks would let go of it for quite some time.
02:35:00 asciilifeform: !s kyristor
02:35:03 mircea_popescu: as assbot's usage over timne has shown
02:35:11 asciilifeform: before i learned of the wot that we now use.
02:35:17 asciilifeform: (*even before)
02:35:36 asciilifeform: the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes.
02:35:47 asciilifeform: it isn't a scalar.
02:36:17 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-11-2014#917896
02:37:12 artifexd: Piss... fraudsters is 502ing again
02:37:29 artifexd: Which I can only assume means it ate my comment.
02:38:22 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2015/01/05/russian_hedge_fund_founder_disappears_with_all_the_firm_s_money.html?wpisrc=obnetwork << another mega-lol from same site
02:39:05 mircea_popescu: artifexd umm... i see it but not your comment.
02:39:11 mircea_popescu: is this some routing mishmashing or something ?
02:39:24 *: asciilifeform also cannot connect now
02:39:40 *: asciilifeform probably caught in spam/ddos trap
02:39:42 mircea_popescu: a there it is.
02:39:49 mircea_popescu: it... didn't eat your comment lol
02:39:56 artifexd: It did.
02:40:06 artifexd: I refreshed the post page. :)
02:41:21 mircea_popescu: answer't.
02:41:28 mircea_popescu: lettuce continue this convo while asciilifeform feels all left out :D
02:41:33 asciilifeform: l0l
02:42:01 Apocalyptic: how long are the bans typically scheduled for ?
02:42:44 mircea_popescu: depends, from an hour up
02:43:43 artifexd: Ok. The layers are forming in my head.
02:52:48 BingoBoingo: !up ddddddd
02:58:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'gossipd' << see 'gossip protocols', very interesting subfield in maths.
02:58:47 mircea_popescu: aham
02:58:54 asciilifeform: highly recommended to anyone who took part in or enjoyed reading this thread.
02:58:57 mircea_popescu: anyway, THAT is why not signed messages.
02:59:06 mircea_popescu: perfect deniability, much better than forward secrecy
02:59:12 mircea_popescu: jurov ^
02:59:23 asciilifeform: still need signed hellos
02:59:37 mircea_popescu: since by very definition gestapo can't trust A B C
02:59:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure, but not the same thing.
03:00:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: complicates your design a bit, as now you have two classes of message
03:00:42 asciilifeform: instead of one
03:00:50 mircea_popescu: how so ?
03:00:57 asciilifeform: (wot operations still need to be signed, as well as 'hello' session negotiations.)
03:01:03 mircea_popescu: no.
03:01:06 asciilifeform: hm?
03:01:14 mircea_popescu: each server maintains his wot ratings, and theyt are sent out as part of hello procedure
03:01:23 mircea_popescu: each server compiles wot list for use of its user from helos received
03:01:50 *: asciilifeform marches off to thinking room to properly think about this.
03:02:00 asciilifeform: and to pet neglected pet
03:12:30 artifexd: Wait. Wut?
03:12:38 mircea_popescu: which part.
03:12:51 artifexd: You specifically don't want messages signed?
03:13:09 artifexd: For deniability?
03:13:35 mircea_popescu: there's no signing in there, is there ?
03:14:00 artifexd: There is not. I took that as an oversight.
03:14:14 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-01-2015#966081 also.
03:14:17 mircea_popescu: no, it's not an oversight.
03:14:31 artifexd: When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C?
03:14:48 mircea_popescu: hm ?
03:14:49 artifexd: Maybe A is trustworthy but got the message from D.
03:14:54 mircea_popescu: so ?
03:15:03 mircea_popescu: his job to police his lists.
03:15:04 artifexd: And D is full of shit.
03:16:37 artifexd: What stops server A from inventing messages by B?
03:16:45 mircea_popescu: don't trust people you don't trust and so you won't have to answer unpleasant questions from people whose trust you value.
03:16:50 mircea_popescu: nothing.
03:17:01 mircea_popescu: in fact, for all you know A sends whole different novels to B and C.
03:17:26 artifexd: That seems... less than ideal.
03:17:31 mircea_popescu: why ?
03:17:42 artifexd: Because we are building a new system from the ground up.
03:17:46 mircea_popescu: right.
03:18:03 mircea_popescu: so ?
03:18:10 BingoBoingo: Is anyone (mike_c?) interested in doing a recap of 2014 in Bitcoin finance?
03:18:19 mircea_popescu: good idea that bb.
03:19:00 artifexd: Everyone is already identified by crypto. Why not ensure that messages that say they are from a keyset actually came from the keyset?
03:19:14 mircea_popescu: because it's chat.
03:19:27 mircea_popescu: do you ordinarily sign contracts with people you chat with in the bus ?
03:19:52 artifexd: Kinda
03:20:04 mircea_popescu: well, i don't. i more often have sex with someone in the bus
03:20:08 mircea_popescu: than sign a contract there.
03:20:13 kakobrekla: dont chat with strangers.
03:20:13 artifexd: If by "sign" you mean "have some effing clue who just said that"
03:20:16 mircea_popescu: for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ?
03:20:18 mircea_popescu: i can use it later.
03:20:32 mircea_popescu: artifexd you have a clue : either your friend, or someone who only exists
03:20:36 mircea_popescu: in the sense your friend sayus he does.
03:20:53 mircea_popescu: this "objective existence of user" is a trap in our task here. it doesn' tserve, it hinders.
03:21:46 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? << This is the big.
03:22:09 artifexd: It would be a timestamped "No".
03:22:34 mircea_popescu: moreover, i wish to take this opportunity and link the important point of the "unsheathe your sword". inasmuch as people proceed on the "user objectively exists" and then try to "create anonimity" the unavoidable result is "anonimity is hard lolz".
03:22:54 mircea_popescu: the only entity served by this nonsense is nsa. users don't actually exist, outside of what the parties you trust say.
03:23:01 mircea_popescu: artifexd so if it is.
03:24:38 artifexd: When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before.
03:24:52 artifexd: Signing messages would provide that same assurance. But automatically.
03:25:01 mircea_popescu: and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd.
03:25:05 artifexd: Wanna be somebody else, grab a new key.
03:25:09 mircea_popescu: without a requirement to sign.
03:25:23 mircea_popescu: however, if you only know asciilifeform and he;'s relying my chat,
03:25:38 mircea_popescu: for all practical purposes i am his 3rd split personality, a figment of his rich imagination.
03:25:50 artifexd: Exactly
03:26:05 mircea_popescu: this is ideal.
03:26:16 asciilifeform: let's see if i misunderstood something.
03:26:42 asciilifeform: in mircea_popescu's scheme, my wot-graph exists as a bitstring that my particular node will disgorge if asked?
03:26:43 mircea_popescu: incidentally, the evolution of this dev session clearly proves the superiority of chat over say bbs, of which forums and fraudsters comments are implementations.
03:26:50 asciilifeform: rather than permanent blockchain-style world record
03:26:59 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, disgorge on handshake but yea
03:27:02 asciilifeform: well then:
03:27:19 asciilifeform: let's imagine the good ship Mircea, a four-reactored former soviet nuke sub;
03:27:38 asciilifeform: a martian death ray takes out a satellite. the ship is now within five day's steam of the next chance for net connection
03:27:54 asciilifeform: during these five days, how many sc4mz0rs will find themselves temporarily rehabilitated ?
03:28:01 asciilifeform: barque << haha yes, knew this
03:28:31 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you still have an old list.
03:28:32 asciilifeform: worse yet, if the boat were to perish in honourable combat, with all hands aboard, the global state of wot shall return to as if he and the crew had never lived ?
03:28:41 asciilifeform: aye i have an old list. but that's quite ad-hoc.
03:28:48 mircea_popescu: which ius no different from the current situation
03:28:52 asciilifeform: and i can't sign it with a fresh mircea-nonce.
03:28:56 asciilifeform: because i am me and not him
03:28:57 mircea_popescu: if i die tomorrow who will maintain my wot ?
03:28:59 mircea_popescu: uhhh... nobody.
03:29:15 asciilifeform: but it stays around as a statue, for so long as nanotube remains ungassed
03:29:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, but you can sign it with yours, if you wish. which correctly reflects the situation. "here are the words of great X i attest to"
03:29:29 asciilifeform: which in this one respect is an arguable improvement over the hypothetical apparatus
03:29:35 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha!
03:29:36 mircea_popescu: i do not see it.
03:29:41 mircea_popescu: how do you know it's not been diddled ?
03:29:47 asciilifeform: that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain!
03:29:47 mircea_popescu: you'd have to ask an elder or two anyway.
03:29:50 asciilifeform: to borrow a greenspunish,
03:29:54 asciilifeform: *greenspunism
03:30:12 asciilifeform: 'those who will not' xxx 'are doomed to' yyy 'it'
03:30:16 mircea_popescu: inasmuch as my old wot is still signed with my old key, and you have a copy
03:30:24 mircea_popescu: it's as good as current thing, except better cuz signed.
03:30:38 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and then we get medieval-style rediscoveries of 'the latter gospel of mircea'
03:30:53 asciilifeform: why not cut straight to chase.
03:31:06 mircea_popescu: very theoretical possibility, as "the last words" are hard to fake online.
03:31:38 asciilifeform: not so much a concern re: fakes, but losses.
03:31:58 mircea_popescu: for all you know some validly signed material from 2012 satoshi emerges tomorrow. tis what it is.
03:32:09 mircea_popescu: for all you know it can even came in the shape of regular bitcoin txn.
03:32:21 asciilifeform: and say my sub, a considerably poorer vessel, only has connection when on equator. say, one day in 60, in sight of particular satellite.
03:32:23 mircea_popescu: will be honored once known. ignored meanwhiule.
03:32:49 asciilifeform: under the contemplated scheme, i may as well not bother to use wot then
03:32:59 asciilifeform: or would have to station it shore-side somehow
03:33:04 mircea_popescu: well, if you can only net once in 2 months you can only net once in 2 months.
03:33:08 mircea_popescu: some of your stuff will be out of date.
03:33:18 asciilifeform: we again arrive at a system of ad-hoc, bug-ridden relays and informal mirrors
03:33:27 mircea_popescu: i still dun see it.
03:33:36 mircea_popescu: but anyway, relays are strength not weakness here.
03:33:53 asciilifeform: when part of mechanism, by spec and by reliable practice sans hand-holding
03:34:07 asciilifeform: think of the advantage bitcoin has over hawala.
03:34:21 asciilifeform: hawala is more or less the same, but implemented in the informal, mouth-to-ear way contemplated above.
03:35:07 asciilifeform: ('the same' topologically! not mechanically, clearly)
03:35:23 mircea_popescu: what's adequate for moving currency is not adequate for moving words.
03:36:24 asciilifeform: wot, i'd say, falls somewhere between (or floating far in the state-space) from currency or mere words
03:36:43 mircea_popescu: i still can't possibly see what flaw you perceive with the wot part of gossipd
03:36:55 artifexd: So what is the value of this vice a private stock ircd with a gribble?
03:37:06 asciilifeform: the fact that my wot actions disappear when my node loses net
03:37:12 asciilifeform: i think it is ludicrous.
03:37:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they don't dood. how do they disappear ?
03:37:24 asciilifeform: disappear until i get plugged back in
03:37:29 mircea_popescu: artifexd thgat it has no central servers, for one.
03:37:31 asciilifeform: which perhaps never, because atomic bomb fell on me.
03:37:40 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyone who saw the old ones has a copy!
03:37:46 mircea_popescu: this is just like it is now! everything!
03:37:48 asciilifeform: and what can they do with this copy?
03:38:00 asciilifeform: consult it while forming own wot ratings, informally?
03:38:05 mircea_popescu: anything ? they're signed by you. they're, until anyone hears better, your position.
03:38:27 asciilifeform: by what mechanism are they kept around in the world ?
03:38:41 asciilifeform: someone manually copied it to a text file at some point ?
03:38:42 mircea_popescu: by the same mechanism anything of anyone's kept around in the world : your friends have copies.
03:38:45 mircea_popescu: an' shall remember you.
03:39:05 mircea_popescu: chat is not an instrument to permanence. it's an instrument to chat.
03:39:10 mircea_popescu: permanence is to be ensured by other means
03:39:16 asciilifeform: chat - sure
03:39:17 asciilifeform: wot ??
03:39:21 mircea_popescu: (this doesn't replace notarybot, for instance)
03:39:42 asciilifeform: if wot ratings were archived - it could.
03:39:49 mircea_popescu: anyone can archive them!
03:39:57 mircea_popescu: yourself included.
03:40:05 asciilifeform: can != will reliably
03:40:26 mircea_popescu: i don't think you will find the computerized means to ensure immutability.
03:40:29 asciilifeform: let's ask - how many folks reading this have archived, e.g., the works of fermat ?
03:40:35 mircea_popescu: but for as long as anyone gives a shit, they'll be there.
03:40:36 asciilifeform: dead tree counts
03:41:18 asciilifeform: probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho.
03:41:56 asciilifeform: a copy of my wotgraph kept around as a message in a bottle under nitrogen in my brother's house, say, will not really carry out its function as a live reflection of my wot-will.
03:41:58 asciilifeform: in real time.
03:42:07 mircea_popescu: because why not ?
03:42:13 asciilifeform: because it is in a bottle.
03:42:48 mircea_popescu: things change,you know. mayhap people you used to trust are nopw scammers
03:42:57 mircea_popescu: present wot would benefit immensely from some dead hand cleanning as it is.
03:43:08 asciilifeform: this is actually an ancient debate in the maths-of-p2p-nets world
03:43:13 mircea_popescu: i really do not wish to hear how much some long gone loser trusts whatever long gone scammer.
03:43:17 asciilifeform: whether father time should forget
03:43:23 asciilifeform: and if so, how.
03:43:39 mircea_popescu: exactly like indicated. will exists for as long as the hand lives to enforce it
03:43:43 mircea_popescu: once that's gone... main morte.
03:43:55 mircea_popescu: leave the earth to better, later men.
03:44:27 asciilifeform: there are obvious wins to this approach. but opens the question of what, e.g., my brother, is to do with my wotgraph once my ship goes down.
03:44:40 mircea_popescu: whatever he wants.
03:44:50 mircea_popescu: we knowthis because he is here. you, are not.
03:44:50 asciilifeform: assuming he wishes it to march on
03:44:58 asciilifeform: is he to host it on an 'obelisk' node which does nothing else but relay it ?
03:45:04 mircea_popescu: could, easily.
03:45:17 asciilifeform: or adjust his own graph-weights? (that would somewhat defeat the purpose of a wot, loses information)
03:45:23 mircea_popescu: also could, also easily.
03:45:31 mircea_popescu: what information was lost ?
03:45:38 mircea_popescu: the wot reflects wqhat things ARE. not what they were.
03:45:50 mircea_popescu: that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone.
03:46:09 asciilifeform: where the change propagates.
03:46:22 asciilifeform: right now this seems far easier than it will turn out to be on adult apparatus.
03:46:37 mircea_popescu: aha ?
03:47:29 asciilifeform: the 'dynamicity' of new-wot (vs classical wot) creates some very strong incentives for hooligans of all stripes
03:47:47 asciilifeform: to attempt to disrupt signal, locate mirrors
03:47:53 mircea_popescu: i still don't see there's a difference.
03:47:57 asciilifeform: to create temporary warps in the fabric of wot.
03:48:13 mircea_popescu: are you sure those aren't simply the resuilts of "no more central server" ?
03:48:32 asciilifeform: well, in a sense they are; but we're really surrendering to entropy here far more than, imho, is necessary
03:48:51 mircea_popescu: entropy is to be embraced. it's no surender when you manage to flow with it.
03:49:08 asciilifeform: i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary
03:49:13 mircea_popescu: the less you figh entropy while still doing your job, the longer you'll live.
03:49:19 asciilifeform: because things that are tedious and must be done manually, tend to not get done.
03:49:26 mircea_popescu: so anyone's free to implement all the caching one wants.
03:50:11 asciilifeform: let's say that a fair number of node operators wish to cache. now they are stuck retaining (and transmitting, regularly!) a vast number of duplicate copies of many wotgraphs
03:50:30 mircea_popescu: why ?
03:50:35 mircea_popescu: they can cache whichever way they wish/
03:50:50 asciilifeform: not so many ways to choose from if result is to behave functionally live
03:50:59 asciilifeform: (i.e., just as their own live wotgraph behaves)
03:51:17 asciilifeform: in the end, you end up with a poor reimplementation of 'blockchain' anyway
03:51:37 mircea_popescu: yes stan, if you wish to have a blockchain you will end up having to implement one.
03:51:38 mircea_popescu: o.O
03:51:40 asciilifeform: i will let this point prove itself, but was willing to argue for it to possibly save mircea_popescu and artifexd some unnecessary sweat
03:53:32 artifexd: I still haven't processed the wot part of the spec. I'm still trying to understand why you wouldn't sign the messages. It seems to be asking for evil actors.
03:54:02 asciilifeform: (1971 story)
03:54:47 artifexd: Other than the argument that a signed "no" could be used for something malicious. Uh... It just means that you said no. It doesn't imply what you said no in response to. Just that you said no.
03:55:37 asciilifeform: this is why i suggested chaining.
03:55:51 asciilifeform: prevents a future forged conversation stitched out of words you have uttered.
03:56:03 asciilifeform: (of signed gibblets, anyway)
03:56:45 artifexd: millisecond timestamps and a counter would do that too.
03:57:03 mircea_popescu: artifexd explain why you WOULD sign them.
03:57:07 asciilifeform: artifexd: next thing you know we're doing lamport clocks.
03:57:08 artifexd: Actually, as fast as I type single second resolution timestamps would be enough.
03:57:20 mircea_popescu: and yes, unixtime timestamps.
03:57:56 artifexd: Why would I sign messages? Why would I appreciate messages that I receive to be signed?
03:58:16 mircea_popescu: why would you require chat lines be signed.
03:58:58 mircea_popescu: i mean, i understand, "it's how it's done". we're here because the current paradigm is - quite fundamentally - broken.
03:58:59 artifexd: Simple: I would sign all my messages so that if you told me that I said something that wasn't signed, I could legitimately call bullshit.
03:59:11 mircea_popescu: you can call bullshit in the gossipd as well.
03:59:15 mircea_popescu: that's provided.
03:59:22 asciilifeform: let's put it this way - if i wish for my words to successfully relay beyond my own node, i have to sign them with an ephemeral key
03:59:25 mircea_popescu: if you wish to elevate some chat to a contract, you directly can do that too.
03:59:27 mircea_popescu: by signign it.
03:59:56 asciilifeform: how is anything originating in my machine to leave my node without being signed ?
03:59:58 artifexd: I would appreciate signed messages so that I could have some moderate assurance that bob is actually bob and not some asshole evil server.
04:00:09 mircea_popescu: artifexd you have SOME assurance.
04:00:15 mircea_popescu: if you know bob, this is cryptographic.
04:00:25 mircea_popescu: if you do not know bob, that assurance is meaningless anyway.
04:00:52 asciilifeform: ^ not entirely
04:00:54 artifexd: I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint.
04:01:03 asciilifeform: you can still know that bob(today) is (or is not) same as bob(next month)
04:01:04 mircea_popescu: right.
04:01:13 mircea_popescu: which is EXACTLY as it is anyway
04:01:23 asciilifeform: not necessarily same person, but same key (e.g., is same bourbaki)
04:01:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform herp.
04:01:38 mircea_popescu: so you can still know... nothing much.
04:01:42 asciilifeform: arguing that this can be useful information
04:01:47 artifexd: Part of the trust is that you can handle a key.
04:01:47 asciilifeform: in some truly perverse cases
04:01:52 mircea_popescu: anything can be useful information.
04:02:07 mircea_popescu: artifexd if you don't know bob, for all you know he's lying to you.
04:02:09 mircea_popescu: ANYWAY.
04:02:20 mircea_popescu: with or without a key. there is no mechanical solution to trust
04:02:27 mircea_popescu: just like there are no mechanically generated random numbers.
04:02:33 *: asciilifeform did not imagine that there were.
04:02:45 mircea_popescu: i am aware the inept consensus today is to think that technology can solve trust.
04:02:46 artifexd: Trust doesn't mean that I take bob's word as gospel.
04:02:57 mircea_popescu: the reason this is even specced is to provide some sanity while everyone wastes their life in that ai quest.
04:03:01 asciilifeform: 'trust' is probably a word that will have to be retired, like phlogiston.
04:03:38 artifexd: Trust in this case means that, as asciilifeform said, bob(today) is bob(next month)
04:03:45 asciilifeform: nooo
04:03:56 asciilifeform: trust is simply an obsolete, pre-scientific word.
04:04:02 artifexd: I mean as in trust the message
04:04:04 asciilifeform: please don't put it on life support, it needs to die
04:04:28 mircea_popescu: artifexd hardly if that.
04:04:45 mircea_popescu: for all you know bob is part of a 500 key ring operated by 5k monkeys.
04:04:47 artifexd: signed messages allow someone to build an identity
04:04:52 mircea_popescu: sure, they do.
04:05:14 mircea_popescu: but more's the point : signed messages allow the world to build an adversative identity of someone.
04:05:20 mircea_popescu: this is pointedly against the purpose of chat.
04:05:32 artifexd: As you have preached in the past, the identity built over time, secured by wot, has value.
04:05:51 artifexd: Take away the ability to build an identity and what's left?
04:06:04 mircea_popescu: it does, and that's exactly what;s happening, in the proper model. people chat. on that chat they build contracts. their contract history is fixed in a wot.
04:06:09 mircea_popescu: there's a great progression at work there.
04:06:15 artifexd: The key in the wot has no relation AT ALL to the message I just received with a fingerprint.
04:06:16 mircea_popescu: such ability is not taken away.
04:06:22 artifexd: Could be him. Could not. Who knows.
04:06:25 mircea_popescu: it does, if the sender is in your list.
04:06:29 mircea_popescu: it does not, if he is not.
04:06:44 mircea_popescu: in the case at hand, i'd know you are you, but i wouldn't know dddddd is anyone in particular.
04:06:46 mircea_popescu: this is correct.
04:07:03 mircea_popescu: because in point of fact ddddd is noone in particular.
04:07:45 mircea_popescu: they even say this, the various random guys the wind blows in. "who are you ?" "nobody in particular".
04:08:00 thestringpuller: !s gribble
04:08:39 artifexd: How do you imagine bootstrapping this thing?
04:08:58 artifexd: Do we get in here, ident, and pass around ip addresses?
04:09:08 artifexd: Is that the start?
04:09:41 mircea_popescu: pretty much
04:09:57 mircea_popescu: you know, just like "up me please" but not centrally maintained.
04:10:06 mircea_popescu: just ask your friends.
04:10:28 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: what would the result of someone forking the WoT be?
04:10:37 mircea_popescu: a wot fork ?
04:10:42 thestringpuller: yah
04:10:45 mircea_popescu: right.
04:10:53 thestringpuller: altgribble becomes hitler and makes his own db clones from nanotubes
04:11:03 thestringpuller: some "people" start using it
04:11:11 thestringpuller: but nanotube never comes back
04:11:15 mircea_popescu: what's wrong with using an alt wot ?
04:11:18 thestringpuller: or comes back months later (super worst case)
04:11:22 thestringpuller: that's my question
04:11:27 mircea_popescu: if you trust whoever maintains it... go ahead.
04:11:36 mircea_popescu: i have nfi who even runs altgribble. who is it ?
04:11:47 thestringpuller: well altgribble was generatlized example
04:11:58 artifexd: After the thing is up and running for 6 months. How does some insightful dude off the street get in? Look for a public (and thus completely untrusted) access ircd that will let him connect and hope to build an identity to the point that you say "hey insightful_dude_from_the_street", what's your ip address? I'll let you connect to me because you say useful
04:11:58 artifexd: shit"?
04:12:06 thestringpuller: mexican_gribble etc
04:12:19 mircea_popescu: artifexd either that, or otherwise getting into a relationship with one of the people in
04:12:23 mircea_popescu: how does one get into l1 atm ?
04:12:28 mircea_popescu: l2*
04:13:52 mircea_popescu: how did lampelina come in ? kako added her to his node and said "hey, lampelina is this hot blondy I met in a bar."
04:14:17 mircea_popescu: if she starts doing evil shit like forwarding messages from obama, it'll look like obama: hey dudes, i smoke the c0k! to us,
04:14:35 artifexd: You have to beg for a chance to demonstrate the ability to be interesting before you get a chance to get judged.
04:14:38 mircea_popescu: but it'll look like obama[via lampelina] to kako. who can then go gtfo wtf you smokin beich ?!
04:15:16 mircea_popescu: artifexd you gotta get an up before you can voice. eh ?
04:15:24 kakobrekla: actually snatched from irc not a bar and our gfs make bad examples for this.
04:15:25 artifexd: Yeah.
04:16:09 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla sorry
04:16:32 artifexd: Fuck. What are we discussing.... Oh yeah. Why automatically adding any type of verification to a message is bad.
04:16:43 mircea_popescu: no.
04:16:46 thestringpuller: hanbot: nice qntra submission
04:16:50 artifexd: No?
04:16:59 mircea_popescu: we were discussing why it is good, and it turns out it isn't particularly, and so parsimony dictates it stays out.
04:18:28 kakobrekla: no sorry needed, its just that i dont put my penis into everyone that i would like to irc with.
04:18:38 artifexd: Preventing some douche from Bumfuck, Idaho from impersonating your hard built identity "isn't particularly good"?
04:18:56 mircea_popescu: artifexd this prevention is guaranteed by design as is.
04:19:08 mircea_popescu: he can only impersonate you to folk that don't know you.
04:19:40 artifexd: He can only impersonate me to people who don't have an absolutely direct connection to me.
04:19:51 mircea_popescu: or care to get one or know how.
04:19:58 mircea_popescu: technically, anyone can make a gpg key and name it Mircea Popescu
04:20:03 mircea_popescu: so what if it's the wrong numbers ?
04:20:48 artifexd: That's why the fingerprint and the alias, right? Let the computer notice that the numbers don't match the the numbers that I identify as mircea.
04:21:29 mircea_popescu: for that matter, if we keep the A B C D ; X Y Z K convention, then A can impersonate K to Y only provided B isn't linked to C that is linked to D.
04:21:40 mircea_popescu: artifexd the computer wouldn't know.
04:21:56 mircea_popescu: if i get a fake key of you and sign it... it's good as far as the computer is concerned.
04:21:56 artifexd: Huh? Of course it would.
04:21:59 mircea_popescu: nope.
04:22:13 mircea_popescu: computer only finds through a direct connection.
04:22:40 artifexd: I have a fingerprint. Or a public key. I give that fingerprint or key a name. Anything not that key or fingerprint won't match to the name.
04:22:47 mircea_popescu: according to whom ?
04:23:08 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lives in a submarine and never connects to you or your friends. i give him my own version of the "Artifex" key. he signs it.
04:23:12 mircea_popescu: bam.
04:23:52 artifexd: What does that have to do with anything>?
04:23:58 mircea_popescu: everything ?
04:24:03 mircea_popescu: it's exactly the scenario you're proposing.
04:24:40 artifexd: Nothing I, as artifexd with my key, say will ever show up as said by the same entity as whatever you say with your artifex key.
04:24:46 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you know on reflection i'm the other way around ? i wouldn't irc with anyone i put my penis into
04:25:06 mircea_popescu: artifexd that's entirely up to me.
04:25:43 kakobrekla: yeah but you are just weird like that.
04:25:44 mircea_popescu: s/anyone/everyone
04:25:48 artifexd: Sure. If you have two keys in your wot and you want to give them both the same name. Knock yourself out.
04:26:03 artifexd: But *you* have to make the choice to be confusing.
04:26:29 asciilifeform: here's an observation:
04:26:33 artifexd: The system would, without your interference, label the things I say and the things your artifex say as said by seperate entities.
04:26:36 asciilifeform: i am not presently authenticated via 'gribble'
04:26:58 mircea_popescu: artifexd dubious at best.
04:27:01 asciilifeform: how many of the folks present are ready to believe that this 'asciilifeform' is the same animal they are accustomed to enduring the company of in #b-a ?
04:27:03 asciilifeform: and why?
04:27:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can tell, you sound just like him.
04:27:22 asciilifeform: well sure.
04:27:32 asciilifeform: but this is an 'informal bug-ridden implementation' of message signing.
04:27:36 mircea_popescu: what, you just bathed in the same bath twice ?
04:27:53 asciilifeform: when i grunt on the impalement pole, i will probably not be able to deny these words either, to the inquisitor, for the same reason
04:27:57 asciilifeform: 'you sound just like him!'
04:27:59 artifexd: dubious? huh? how? the maths are the maths.
04:28:02 asciilifeform: hence the 'adverse identity' thing
04:28:07 asciilifeform: even if we have no sigs
04:28:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think you misrepresent the importance of this. currently, I can tell. *I*. Because i'm me, specifically. if you signed, so could preet.
04:28:21 mircea_popescu: you do not wish to make preet any gifts.
04:28:27 asciilifeform: sigs are pure win, for a creature like myself, just about everything that comes out of my mouth is 'signed' enough for inquisitor!
04:28:31 asciilifeform: why not sign for friends?
04:28:32 mircea_popescu: which is why this is an ircd fork rather than whatever, just apt-get it.
04:28:44 mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "sign for friends" outside of the model detailed in my spec.
04:28:53 mircea_popescu: that's what that is. "signed, but for friends only"
04:29:11 asciilifeform: the only possible solution to preet signing as asciilifeform, or mircea_popescu, or whoever, is to pull the pin when he comes uninvited.
04:29:20 mircea_popescu: mno.
04:29:30 mircea_popescu: consider a bunch of chatlogs from gossipd presented in court.
04:29:44 mircea_popescu: "and then you said so and so" "um how you know this ?" "from node C" "well it lied to you"
04:30:02 mircea_popescu: "no it didn't!!1" "case dismissed" "but yur honor!!1"
04:30:21 asciilifeform: imho it is far from a sure thing that this will so much as add one drop of sweat to a usg inquisitor's work
04:30:26 artifexd: Your argument is that you WANT deniability?
04:30:42 mircea_popescu: artifexd my argument is that deniability must be baked in or not had.
04:30:53 mircea_popescu: and for chat it must be had. and so... it must be baked in.
04:31:11 artifexd: Hmmm.... this is not the project that I thought it was.
04:31:16 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is another way to bake it in.
04:31:31 BingoBoingo: Even preet loses cases
04:31:34 mircea_popescu: artifexd it isn't ?
04:31:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider: a subclass of private message where you ask a friend to pass along, to the 'room', some words.
04:31:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha ?
04:31:51 asciilifeform: explicitly proclaimed as 'not his own'
04:32:00 asciilifeform: the ears - can choose to believe, or not, naturally
04:32:06 asciilifeform: but this is inescapable
04:32:16 mircea_popescu: i don't follow.
04:33:22 asciilifeform: say mircea_popescu wishes to deniably utter the words 'brezhnev sucks'. he then asks me to utter, 'my friend, who wishes to stay unmarked, wishes to inform the ladies and gentlemen of this network that brezhnev sucks'
04:33:39 asciilifeform: we thus have a degree of deniability, about the same as in the case of no messages carrying signatures
04:33:39 mircea_popescu: artifexd suppose you don't reg your name, and someone comes in as artifexd and says things. should you be forced somehow to say if this is the case or not ?
04:33:40 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not wish to stay unmarked.
04:33:48 asciilifeform: (contrieved example)
04:33:49 mircea_popescu: and i don't want "a degree" of deniability.
04:34:04 asciilifeform: as i reckon, same degree as the unsigned-message scenario
04:34:14 mircea_popescu: i want exactly what chat is : absolute deniability to the entire world, save your friends.
04:34:32 mircea_popescu: which is exactly how speech has functioned, since the dawn of time, to create what is known as the free world.
04:34:38 asciilifeform: 'absolutes' are tricky.
04:34:41 mircea_popescu: high time computers conform.
04:34:46 mircea_popescu: not with the spec as given, imo.
04:35:07 asciilifeform: let's work out, using spec as given in mircea_popescu's article: what does an inquisitor know about a particular utterance
04:35:13 asciilifeform: if he were to put a node in his pocket
04:35:15 asciilifeform: or a series of nodes
04:35:28 mircea_popescu: okay.
04:36:05 asciilifeform: to how many possible pubkeys (and presumably, but not automagically, people) can he narrow down the 'brezhnev sucks' ?
04:36:10 asciilifeform: (typically)
04:36:19 mircea_popescu: i dun see how that'd be answered.
04:36:50 mircea_popescu: but i also have little interest in fighting the narrowing down. that's not really a good use of time.
04:37:07 asciilifeform: that's what 'deniability' means, unless i catastrophically misunderstand the concept
04:37:27 mircea_popescu: well, not how i understand it at any rate.
04:37:37 mircea_popescu: deniability is "you X" "no."
04:37:49 *: asciilifeform is transported to grade school mentally
04:38:18 mircea_popescu: as far as it's in the form "either you or A X" the only answer is "i don't care."
04:38:23 asciilifeform: teacher: 'it was one of you boys'
04:38:35 mircea_popescu: "get something substantial and bother me again"
04:39:25 artifexd: How many connections to other servers do you imagine that you will have? You as in you mircea_popescu.
04:39:32 artifexd: 10? 60? 2000?
04:39:34 artifexd: 1?
04:39:35 *: asciilifeform gets a distinct impression that mircea_popescu is still thinking of the adversary as being bound by laws, courts, procedures of evidence-gathering.
04:39:39 mircea_popescu: artifexd anywhere between a few dozen and a few thousands.
04:39:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am not thinking of an adversary. i am designing things correctly.
04:40:04 *: asciilifeform rather thinks that this is a military matter, where adversary can afford to ransack and search 100 houses but not 100,000, and hence his gathering bits of info - matters
04:40:38 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's a subplot i dun wanna enter into now - this is complex enough as it is - but suffice to say i am persuaded such situations are thermodynamiocally bound to narrow timespaces.
04:40:51 *: asciilifeform would much like to hear more about this later
04:41:03 mircea_popescu: ie, the police state only exists now and again, when the state of technology is poor enough.
04:41:46 asciilifeform: naggum had a piece where he confessed to thinking of 'open source' as a weapon, purpose-built for the destruction of a particular evil (microshit)
04:42:00 asciilifeform: that will have to be re-shaped into something quite else (his words) when enemy is dead
04:42:04 mircea_popescu: artifexd a 1mbps connection, which is reasonably common in households, should be able to support maybe a few hundred connections.
04:42:25 mircea_popescu: then again, the number of people people know is, from memory 1-200.
04:42:40 mircea_popescu: admitting everyone's awake at the same time.
04:42:59 *: asciilifeform still can't escape the feeling that hypothetical apparatus is a weapon, at least for the time being, that must be sharp enough to penetrate a particular tough grizzly hide if it is to carry on to being whatever it was meant to be...
04:43:00 mircea_popescu: and admitting everyone known is known to the same, high degree to warrant a connection.
04:43:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's merely meant to put chat on a sane footing.
04:43:28 mircea_popescu: since we're fixing ircd, might as well actually do it.
04:44:16 asciilifeform: at the very least, one ought to have the option of (unobtrusively!) signing every line
04:44:26 asciilifeform: i am quite ready to ephemeralkey-sign every line i have uttered in #b-a.
04:44:44 mircea_popescu: i don;'t see what in the spec would prevent anyone from so doing.
04:44:54 asciilifeform: in no small part because i cannot really picture my impalement or reprieve as hinging on attribution of what i've said
04:44:58 artifexd: I would think that instead of a list of ip addresses you would have a list of pubkeys and each pubkey has one (or more) ip addresses assigned to it. When you start up gossipd, it calls out to all the ip addresses in the lists and says "I'm bob, proven by this signature. Prove you are alice, with cryptoproof". If the answering box responds appropriately,
04:44:58 artifexd: cool. Keep the connection. If not, dump it.
04:45:21 asciilifeform: why is it necessary to involve ip addresses ?
04:45:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gotta route packets somehow.
04:45:46 mircea_popescu: artifexd this could also work, as a handshakey sort of thing, sure.
04:45:51 artifexd: As a currently running gossipd, if I get a connection request with "I'm bob. Here's proof", then I accept the connection and add that ip address to my list for that key. (For later connecting to him)
04:45:58 asciilifeform: let's say i communicate over courier.
04:46:02 asciilifeform: what is my 'ip address' then ?
04:46:06 mircea_popescu: spec was simpler on the assumption that since the helo package is keyed to the supposed key of the server, there's no need to challenge
04:46:10 mircea_popescu: if hje can decrypt it's him alright.
04:46:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it touches the network somewhere.
04:47:14 artifexd: Sure. Then the handshake doesn't go both ways, but the information shared is the same. I know you have the key you say you have. You know I have the key I say I have.
04:47:16 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when i sign my 'hello' i will have no idea where it will enter the network.
04:47:37 artifexd: I add the ip address to the key so when I start up, I have a place (or places) to look for you.
04:47:37 asciilifeform: it is quite impossible to sign your ip address if you communicate via courier who may stop at one of sixteen ports.
04:48:14 artifexd: asciilifeform: You have to have some way of receiving return messages, right?
04:48:21 asciilifeform: not necessarily
04:48:30 asciilifeform: it could be my final message as boat goes down.
04:48:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then put it in a pastebin
04:48:47 asciilifeform: sent - in bottle.
04:48:49 mircea_popescu: and someone will link it.
04:48:55 asciilifeform: out of band?
04:48:59 mircea_popescu: sure.
04:49:09 asciilifeform: why is this necessary?
04:49:21 mircea_popescu: cause you're tryin to shoehorn nonchat uses of a chat network.
04:49:29 mircea_popescu: so you're going to have to carry the shoe horn yourself.
04:49:36 asciilifeform: by way of a considerably simpler design
04:49:51 asciilifeform: (unitary hello+signature packet)
04:50:03 artifexd: Sure. I have no issue with that.
04:50:14 mircea_popescu: uh.
04:50:22 mircea_popescu: the helo as it is contains some signed material.
04:50:26 mircea_popescu: what would you sign ?
04:50:42 *: asciilifeform will, likely, happily play with whatever apparatus you folks come up with, but wishes that the choice be an informed one on the part of the implementers, rather than happenstance.
04:51:38 mircea_popescu: o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this.
04:51:41 artifexd: Sign whatever you want. As long as the timestamp is recent.
04:51:51 *: mircea_popescu waves.
04:52:09 mircea_popescu: artifexd so how is it different from the project you thouight it was ?
04:52:50 asciilifeform: artifexd: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#967274 << basic summary of the thing i was mainly on about.
04:52:51 artifexd: I wasn't imagining so many direct connections.
04:53:16 mircea_popescu: artifexd well, dunbar's number as a general rule.
04:53:21 artifexd: I had imagined few connections, more routing.
04:53:23 mircea_popescu: should fit on consumer box.
04:53:30 mircea_popescu: if anyone runs a mega node, his hardware is his problem
04:54:34 artifexd: I had imagined #b-a but where everyone is ident'd all the time. No impersonating anyone else is remotely possible.
04:54:52 mircea_popescu: this would fit, if you cared to make it fit
04:54:56 mircea_popescu: currently therte's 140 people here.
04:54:57 *: asciilifeform also formed this impression.
04:55:04 mircea_popescu: so... yes.
04:55:23 artifexd: I start up my little process, it makes a connection to one or eight other people and it just works through the magic of maths.
04:55:38 mircea_popescu: nah. too easy to attack that graph.
04:55:41 asciilifeform: who among those present, other than mircea_popescu, wishes to be impersonateable (deniable) by default ?
04:55:48 artifexd: Not I
04:55:54 asciilifeform: not 'democratizing', just probing waters
04:55:58 mircea_popescu: what's the big deal ?
04:56:10 mircea_popescu: i am impersonated all the time, on all sorts of venues.
04:56:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and you like it ?
04:56:35 mircea_popescu: i have enough experience with it to know it does \exactly nothing.
04:56:53 asciilifeform: i, for one, would much prefer to have there be not the slightest chance that a fuckwit claiming to speak as me, but sans my key, can be believed
04:57:03 artifexd: I think you're accused of being other people more often than you are impersonated.
04:57:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform believed is one thing.
04:57:24 mircea_popescu: artifexd this is possible lol. but also a large number.
04:57:28 artifexd: asciilifeform: That is my desire as well
04:57:38 mircea_popescu: it won't be believed (meaningfully).
04:57:53 asciilifeform: will be believed by sufficiently many otherwise-clueful folks
04:57:57 mircea_popescu: what people who have no clue believe resting squarely outside not of your control, but THIS WORLD.
04:57:58 asciilifeform: because signatures are so rare.
04:58:12 mircea_popescu: perhaps this is what irks, such a clear statement of that inconvenient (but nevertheless true) fact
04:58:26 asciilifeform: if signatures were expected, impersonation would be strictly a preet-stole-key-and-i-didnt-pull-pin-in-time matter.
04:58:36 mircea_popescu: like in the case of rg ?
04:58:44 artifexd: What is "preet"?
04:58:45 mircea_popescu: this is an illusion.
04:58:53 asciilifeform: artifexd: an infamous judge where i live
04:58:58 asciilifeform: artifexd: 'kangaroo court'
04:59:40 asciilifeform: artifexd: he specializes in high-profile show trials. quite like roland freisler (top judge in 3rd reich)
04:59:51 mircea_popescu: artifexd the roland freisler of our times, preet bharara. crown's prosecutor for southern ny / rico conspiracy lynchpin.
04:59:53 artifexd: ok
05:00:19 mircea_popescu: lmao that sounded like a divisive question.
05:00:24 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/01/devianttwo-aka-robert-christophers-december-arrest-flies-under-the-radar/
05:00:33 mircea_popescu: o.O
05:00:57 asciilifeform: ergo he did not play ball.
05:01:01 asciilifeform: at some point, somewhere.
05:01:10 asciilifeform: so his chain was reeled in.
05:01:19 mircea_popescu: i dunno, he was kinda dumb.
05:01:27 mircea_popescu: woudn't surprise me if legit pedo.
05:01:33 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-07-2014#749841
05:01:43 asciilifeform: not even necessary that he not be 'legit paedo'
05:01:49 mircea_popescu: aite.
05:02:06 asciilifeform: but parsimonious hypothesis, imho, is that he was a chained, leashed paedo.
05:02:49 mircea_popescu: seems to me on the contrary, it's just "random redneck doing various shit online like scams and pedophilia got nicked"
05:03:34 *: asciilifeform laboured under an impression that 'actual paedo' is a rather uncommon thing, and hence their over-representation in sc4mz0rd0m is something in need of a logical explanation
05:04:03 mircea_popescu: guy had a scamrecord a mile long, and always dumb shit like https://bitcointa.lk/threads/devianttwo-scammer.122455/
05:04:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actual pedo irl yes. among the online scum that makes up a good chunk of the "bitcoin community" on places like forums etc, common enough.
05:04:52 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: earlier link concerned my working hypothesis as to why.
05:05:12 asciilifeform: (it being, they get 'annointed' by handlers specifically for being thus malleable)
05:05:15 mircea_popescu: mebbe.
05:05:29 mircea_popescu: doubt it tho, seeing how many they are and how ignominously they labour.
05:06:34 asciilifeform: there is the added difficulty of everyone and anyone in usg-dom being 'a paedo' retroactively on the mere request of a preet.
05:06:48 asciilifeform: вредители.
05:14:10 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is it merely my puny brain, but i still don't grasp the 'signed-default is bad because preet can steal a key.' if preet gets a hold of my key, he may as well have put a bullet through my hide, stuffed the corpse, and proceeded to live on as it
05:14:18 asciilifeform: signed gossipd or not.
05:14:26 mircea_popescu: for my curiosity, people who run torrents : how many connections is common ? 10 ? 20 ? 40 ? 80 ? 160 ?
05:14:35 asciilifeform: depends on torrent for what.
05:14:37 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not because "preet can steal a key"
05:14:59 mircea_popescu: i just meant, generally. i dun care for what, trying to see how this works in practice.
05:15:12 artifexd: The torrents that I have run get 15-20 connections
05:15:21 asciilifeform: just strikes me as a peculiar retreat from the whole 'let's bring an end to eternal september' thing
05:15:32 mircea_popescu: it's exactly that tho!
05:15:42 mircea_popescu: it actually puts an end to it.
05:15:45 asciilifeform: how?
05:16:04 asciilifeform: as it is, you're relying on the next hop node's operator to sign your words.
05:16:05 mircea_popescu: suppose you're an average derp. what do you do ?
05:16:11 asciilifeform: watch tv until die ?
05:16:20 mircea_popescu: problem solved, september ended.
05:16:34 mircea_popescu: i meant, what do you do to gossipd obvbiously.
05:16:42 asciilifeform: hm
05:16:49 artifexd: !s gossipd
05:16:57 asciilifeform: cajole a 'l33t3r' friend to give you an 'in', perhaps
05:16:57 mircea_popescu: artifexd i ended up referring to your project as that.
05:17:08 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then you piss me off, i frown at your friend, you're out.
05:17:09 asciilifeform: what did 'derps' do in 1991 ?
05:17:11 mircea_popescu: you made it 3 days.
05:17:14 mircea_popescu: now what ?
05:17:25 asciilifeform: this is the ideal working of the scenario, yes
05:17:44 mircea_popescu: ok, i frown at your friend, he demures, i delink him, you both are out.
05:17:47 mircea_popescu: 2 derps, 3 days.
05:17:53 asciilifeform: in practice, derp can often masquerade as simply an underenthusiastic or overworked 'actual person' for a spell.
05:18:00 mircea_popescu: ok...
05:18:13 mircea_popescu: in practice derps never manage this, if we're to go by history, but anyway.
05:18:25 asciilifeform: just recalling various guests in #b-a, and how long it took each to work his (often her) way out of the alimentary canal
05:18:35 mircea_popescu: who, specifically ?
05:18:39 *: asciilifeform digs log
05:18:51 asciilifeform: saffron
05:18:53 asciilifeform: ?
05:19:03 mircea_popescu: as far as i recall, for as far as my own chatlog is concerned, it took them exactly an hour longer than it took me to decide it's enough.
05:19:05 asciilifeform: indian candy
05:19:10 mircea_popescu: now, why shouldn't this be the situation to everyone ?
05:19:15 mircea_popescu: i wouldn't mind seeing either of those.
05:19:16 asciilifeform: merely examples of people who took weeks, rather than days
05:19:31 asciilifeform: aha but walked off rather than killfiled
05:19:40 mircea_popescu: was thinking more like xmj and his ilk.
05:19:47 asciilifeform: aha right
05:19:49 asciilifeform: better example
05:20:28 asciilifeform: or, what if herr pankkake had made things more difficult by slowly doing... his thing, rather than swapping uniforms in one fell swoop
05:20:49 mircea_popescu: i dun see how any of these are serious avenues to attack gossipd.
05:21:00 mircea_popescu: literally, all it takes is a one line edit.
05:22:00 asciilifeform: not so much 'attacks', but i for one was hoping to see this experiment as a beginning of the 'wot internet'
05:22:06 mircea_popescu: so it is.
05:22:12 mircea_popescu: imo, quite exactly.
05:22:13 asciilifeform: where eventually derps will not be able to send a packet, period.
05:22:27 mircea_popescu: but it's EXACTLY what it is!
05:22:36 asciilifeform: not if individual quanta aren't signed
05:22:50 mircea_popescu: they still need a friend to let them in.
05:23:07 asciilifeform: in mircea_popescu's current scheme, they still are signed, i'll point out. but ad-hoc, by the next hop node
05:23:11 mircea_popescu: you understand this ? nobody can police a list of 2bn ip addresses.
05:23:16 mircea_popescu: anyone can police the 200 people he himself knows.
05:23:20 asciilifeform: keys
05:23:23 asciilifeform: not people. or ip addresses
05:23:26 mircea_popescu: same thing.
05:23:39 mircea_popescu: blacklisting doesn't work, and whitelisting should be done locally, and responsibly.
05:23:50 *: asciilifeform does not disagree with this at all
05:24:04 mircea_popescu: but you disagree with the implementation of ewxactly this ?
05:25:14 asciilifeform: just not really grasping why we need the 'deniability' thing.
05:25:24 artifexd: nor I
05:25:37 asciilifeform: it seems to fly in the face of better-living-through-crypto
05:26:12 mircea_popescu: it's odd because to me it seems exactly opposite.
05:26:41 mircea_popescu: as in, why add clunk that actually harms and hinders, except to perpetuate what we generally agree is a harmful meme.
05:27:16 asciilifeform: how is message-is-standalong-quantum-that-traverses-the-net-on-its-authors-signatures-merits added clunk ?
05:27:24 mircea_popescu: excactly like that.
05:27:25 asciilifeform: *standalone
05:27:37 artifexd: Other than some extra bytes, how is it clunk? How does it harm or hinder?
05:27:46 mircea_popescu: ok, let me try and make the whole story.
05:28:32 mircea_popescu: currently : 1. friend to friend relations are entirely cryptographically secured. 2. unknown-to-unknown relations are not secured, and must proceed through a friend of either party to even happen.
05:28:47 mircea_popescu: what you propose : 1. friend to friend and unknown to unknown relations are the same thing.
05:29:05 *: asciilifeform is at a loss to see how this follows
05:29:13 artifexd: Uh... no.
05:29:32 mircea_popescu: this harms because : it gives unknowns a weight they should not have ; it removes the incentive for users to police at their local level ; it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs that they had no business in.
05:29:39 mircea_popescu: anmd there's plenty more, but srsly... how much is needed.
05:30:37 asciilifeform: incidentally, in no holy book is it written that a pubkey is readily pinnable on a particular creature walking this earth
05:30:48 mircea_popescu: so ?
05:30:54 asciilifeform: one can have 'anonymity' or 'deniability' or whatnot, as commonly imagined, at the same time as signed-everything
05:30:58 mircea_popescu: and when you say no what do you mean no.
05:31:07 artifexd: It doesn't give weight to unknowns. It gives continuity do unknowns should they desire it.
05:31:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not naturally.
05:31:13 mircea_popescu: artifexd that is weight.
05:31:30 mircea_popescu: the existence of unknowns should be entirely at the mercy of the knowns. no exceptions and no way out.
05:31:49 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by what mechanism do 'unknowns' transmogrify into 'knowns' in your cosmography ?
05:31:58 mircea_popescu: by whatever mechanism anyone chooses to use.
05:32:02 mircea_popescu: THEY have no power,
05:32:09 mircea_popescu: which is to say no obligatory mechanism exists.
05:32:12 artifexd: No. It is continuity. I assign weight to what they say by my judgement. They assign continuity to what they say by signing it.
05:32:31 mircea_popescu: artifexd it is not up to them. it is up to you.
05:32:38 mircea_popescu: the moment you add them to your list, they have continuity.
05:32:42 mircea_popescu: before that , they are ephemereal.
05:32:44 mircea_popescu: not their option. yours.
05:32:52 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at present time, an 'unknown' can generate a pgp key and carry on 'continuity' with it over whatever channel. we can't exactly prevent it
05:32:52 mircea_popescu: because we don't work for the group here. we work for the individual.
05:32:56 asciilifeform: nor have any good reason to try
05:33:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a problem
05:33:00 artifexd: it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs << while true, I don't see the issue with it
05:33:05 mircea_popescu: it is not an advantage.
05:33:16 asciilifeform: and here is where i'm puzzled
05:33:19 asciilifeform: how not advantage
05:33:31 mircea_popescu: artifexd i do. it's the equivalent of making a weirdo reality where anyone who eavesdrops also has a recording device.
05:33:48 mircea_popescu: none of their fuckinbg business. if they weren't invited to participate they can not RELY on the discussion.
05:33:55 mircea_popescu: not to the detriment o the participants, in any case.
05:34:11 asciilifeform: but, carrying on with the analogy, recording machines exist.
05:34:27 asciilifeform: this is like a late-medieval knight wishing that cannon had not existed.
05:34:32 asciilifeform: fact is, they do
05:34:33 mircea_popescu: no. making it not exist.
05:34:40 mircea_popescu: fact is, they only do if you wish to implement them. i do not.
05:34:58 mircea_popescu: i don't see much has improved since the recording machine era. do you ?
05:35:14 asciilifeform: if specifically aiming for anonymity, deniability, one ends up designing a widget akin to 'tor'
05:35:21 asciilifeform: is this the intended shape ?
05:35:39 mircea_popescu: this specifically aims for reconstructing sane chat, online.
05:35:46 asciilifeform: i won't argue that a working 'tor' would not have its uses, but it is a very different animal from an 'adult' rebirth of internet circa 1989
05:35:52 mircea_popescu: rather than some conveniently diddled , horrible implementation designed for the needs of the nsa
05:35:56 mircea_popescu: (more generally, of the state)
05:36:31 *: asciilifeform sees the genuine dilemma here. but sees it as a dilemma, not an open-and-shut case in favour of soft-anonymity
05:36:48 mircea_popescu: do tell.
05:36:51 mircea_popescu: i dun see any sort of dilemma.
05:37:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu does not like the notion of nsa goon having a non-deniable tape of anything he catches. (i don't much, either...) asciilifeform does not like that it is generally customary to speak unsigned, and thereby nsa goon can put words into his mouth, and a certain number of people will believe them
05:38:13 mircea_popescu: what the clueless "believe" can not ever be your concern.
05:38:24 mircea_popescu: it is folly to even consider this point. focus on what is within your control.
05:38:25 asciilifeform: it is when they lead me to the electric chair
05:38:29 mircea_popescu: not even then.
05:38:45 mircea_popescu: a screening of "a man for all seasons" is in order here.
05:39:05 asciilifeform: until the magic dawn when the last idiot is strangled with the guts of the last scammer, there will be ones who believe the crap.
05:39:05 mircea_popescu: quite exceptional walk through the very points involved.
05:39:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is neither here nor there.
05:39:45 mircea_popescu: fundamentally your argument reduces to a deep seated "all peoples matter"
05:39:51 asciilifeform: how ?
05:39:55 mircea_popescu: to the tune of monty pytrhon's every sperm is sacred. no, they do not.
05:40:01 asciilifeform: this inference is perplexing. i don't see how it follows.
05:40:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because whythe fuck do you care what some people you doin't know say on any topic ?
05:40:21 asciilifeform: how does a bomzh, stinking in the street, who happens to have generated a pgp key, 'matter' ?
05:40:52 mircea_popescu: well since you're concerned with what he might say or believe, it seems he does.
05:41:26 asciilifeform: i'm concerned only in the particular corner case that he is actually my friend, who has been reduced to that condition by malefactors, but still remains in possession of his key.
05:41:37 mircea_popescu: i do not care what "buts" and "ifs" you add.
05:41:41 mircea_popescu: what remains is... you are concerned.
05:42:07 asciilifeform: i'd say 'generic bum' and 'mircea stripped of his clothing and cast adrift in shanghai' are different scenario, no ?
05:42:22 mircea_popescu: so how is this germane ?
05:42:30 mircea_popescu: obviously, if we're connected, you know my key.
05:42:39 mircea_popescu: at issue is your proposal to make this a reality for people you don't know.
05:43:04 asciilifeform: nope. i fully understand that the latter is neither possible nor desirable
05:43:16 mircea_popescu: so then what is the dilemma ?
05:43:29 asciilifeform: 'who signs'
05:43:31 mircea_popescu: you know my key, you directly verify my client is signing correctly, what is keft ?
05:43:36 mircea_popescu: left*
05:44:15 asciilifeform: in the scheme as presently described, your client is also signing (for the record of the hypothetical nsa goon, among others) a fairly arbitrary set of messages.
05:44:30 mircea_popescu: it is not signing them, no.
05:44:34 mircea_popescu: it is merely passing them along.
05:44:48 asciilifeform: it signs the session whereby they are given right to travel the net
05:44:49 mircea_popescu: "this is what i heard"
05:44:53 asciilifeform: well, yes
05:45:04 mircea_popescu: that, it does. but it makes no representation they are from me.
05:45:15 mircea_popescu: in fact, it speciically says they are not.
05:45:22 asciilifeform: and what is the intended mechanism for propagating a message which -does- make this claim ?
05:45:32 asciilifeform: laborious external signature, as at present time ?
05:45:37 mircea_popescu: for instance.
05:45:48 mircea_popescu: or, if you prefer, elevating the source to the rank of a connect.
05:45:54 mircea_popescu: thereby doing it all automatically.
05:46:08 asciilifeform: please briefly describe 'rank of connect'
05:46:20 mircea_popescu: the same relation as between you and me, in the scenario.
05:46:26 mircea_popescu: you have his key in the initfile, and so on.
05:47:52 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the tidbit that escapes me is how you came upon the idea that default-signed would empower, rather than lower into pederasty, the 'anonymous derp'
05:48:08 mircea_popescu: well that's the clou of the entire thing now innit.
05:48:16 asciilifeform: aha
05:48:35 asciilifeform: if i can grasp this, perhaps it will all make sense to my head.
05:48:47 mircea_popescu: i think i explained it half a dozen different ways, to exhaustion, but am at a loss as to why what seems obvious is not communicating itself.
05:49:03 mircea_popescu: let's go the other way. why do you think it would so lower them ?
05:49:11 asciilifeform: did i misunderstand, or did you say earlier that it would be a good thing if the street bomzh could not use pgp ?
05:49:21 asciilifeform: (and gain continuity thereby)
05:49:27 mircea_popescu: ok, let's work a different way. let us compare two scenarios.
05:50:07 mircea_popescu: in both cases, we are discussing user Panopticon, who sees all and says nothing. now, in spec as is, it is true that user P will know... nothing. correct ? whereas in your proposed spec, he would know... everything. correct ?
05:50:15 mircea_popescu: how is giving the bum EVERYTHING lowering him in any sense ?
05:50:24 asciilifeform: everything ?
05:50:26 mircea_popescu: and whence and wherefore should he have anything but nothing ?
05:50:38 mircea_popescu: well yes. all the signed chats of everyone = everything. absolutely as 1 = 1.
05:50:58 asciilifeform: if he truly knows 'everything', he can unmask the 'deniable' speakers likewise.
05:50:58 artifexd: I guess I like the default sign because I see myself as Panopticon. I don't talk much. But I watch and listen. Default-sign helps me.
05:51:02 asciilifeform: no need for signatures.
05:51:28 mircea_popescu: artifexd you might discover it hurts you, much like the low level usg employee who thinks the fed helps him would soon discover his lot would be better without that bit.
05:51:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how ?
05:52:12 asciilifeform: if he truly knows 'everything' he can elementarily determine which earthly carcass crapped out which words.
05:52:17 mircea_popescu: not so.
05:52:27 mircea_popescu: for all he knows, they're all in cahoots, sending him lulz.
05:52:31 mircea_popescu: he can not determine this.
05:52:36 asciilifeform: presumably some earthly not-quite-everything was meant, rather than a 'divine' Everything
05:52:50 mircea_popescu: everything in the network duh.
05:53:10 asciilifeform: then mircea_popescu is correct
05:53:24 asciilifeform: hitler does know considerably more under the all-signed scenario than alternative.
05:53:40 mircea_popescu: more importantly, hitler IS a lot more in that than he would be in this.
05:53:47 asciilifeform: but if we actually want to go in that direction, the logical result is a gadget like 'tor', with bounces, mixes, etc.
05:53:54 asciilifeform: rather than lukewarm step in that direction, no?
05:54:03 mircea_popescu: this is paid for, somewhere, by someone. who is paying but me ? even if i can't show where it leeches me, it does. why should i ?
05:54:13 mircea_popescu: there's nothing lukewarm about this.
05:54:21 mircea_popescu: it is, unlike the tor etc bs, actually efficient.
05:55:33 asciilifeform: just seems like an attempt to build a stove-refrigerator hybrid. yes, can be done, yes, in some sense these are complementary machines. but - challenge.
05:55:42 mircea_popescu: nothing of the kind.
05:55:54 asciilifeform: (combination of 'tor'-like apparatus with 'wot', in particular)
05:56:06 mircea_popescu: the tor bs is an attempt to "fix" in implementation problems to whose existence it not merely contributes, but moore! whose existence it actually postulates.
05:56:22 mircea_popescu: it is fundamentally broken and will never work exactly because it simply presumes the adversary wins.
05:56:36 asciilifeform: speaking of the 'platonic' tor, rather than the cthonian horror of the actual proggy
05:56:39 mircea_popescu: wheras as proposed, gossipd makes the enemy outright impossible.
05:56:45 mircea_popescu: not even deliberately, just, as a side effect.
05:56:51 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform even the platonic.
05:56:58 mircea_popescu: structure it and i'll show you how it assumes it.
05:57:26 asciilifeform: well, 'platonic tor' is simply that a large number of people agree to 'play non-broken telephone' between me and a destination.
05:57:40 asciilifeform: thereby obscuring the existence of the conversation, within certain limits.
05:57:48 mircea_popescu: a destination you know nothing about.
05:58:01 asciilifeform: a destination you may or may not know something about out-of-band
05:58:14 mircea_popescu: so the fundamental statement is "the group is more important than the individual"
05:58:20 mircea_popescu: and you wish to know why it is broken by design ?
05:58:21 mircea_popescu: that's why.
05:58:26 mircea_popescu: once that's in there, of course fucking nsa.
05:58:27 asciilifeform: (e.g., i may know that it is a machine at ip p.q.r.s with rsa pubkey K)
05:58:59 asciilifeform: well yes. nsa comes inevitably in because you are trusting three strangers whom you know nothing about, to form the circuit.
05:59:07 mircea_popescu: derp.
05:59:20 mircea_popescu: now apply the same analysis to gossipd.
05:59:55 asciilifeform: gossipd proposes a scheme more akin to the traditional 'cell' organizations of revolutions, etc
06:00:10 asciilifeform: (i dare suggest that a node be referred to as 'cell', for extra lulz)
06:00:11 mircea_popescu: quite.
06:00:23 mircea_popescu: historically, the closer a relation, the more direct.
06:00:27 asciilifeform: aha
06:00:29 mircea_popescu: this is not some sort of random contrivance of boredom.
06:00:43 asciilifeform: it is the inevitable construction that stands.
06:00:49 mircea_popescu: this is specifically because, historically, the individual is more important than the group
06:00:49 asciilifeform: like bridge truss.
06:00:54 asciilifeform: (triangles)
06:01:05 mircea_popescu: which is how humanity managed to inch its way to this sad time when it's about to kill itself a thousand different ways
06:01:11 mircea_popescu: all born the same stupid place.
06:02:23 asciilifeform: which, in this context, place ?
06:02:36 mircea_popescu: "group is more important than individual"
06:02:38 mircea_popescu: a mental place.
06:02:43 asciilifeform: ah that.
06:02:52 mircea_popescu: myeah
06:03:19 mircea_popescu: i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.
06:03:24 mircea_popescu: heck, haven't felt so alive in weeks.
06:03:28 asciilifeform: srsly ?
06:03:36 mircea_popescu: yes.
06:03:40 *: asciilifeform pictured mircea_popescu breaking keyboards, etc
06:03:56 artifexd: "How many times do I have to explain this shit!"
06:03:57 mircea_popescu: so did the pets peeking in online. but no.
06:04:48 artifexd: This pretty much prevents one-way relationships, right?
06:05:08 artifexd: If you and I are online, unless we are both in each other's list, we will never direct-connect.
06:05:15 mircea_popescu: this part is finnicky. it shouldn't, ideally, but i don't see how it could be done.
06:05:42 artifexd: We have to both agree to trust each other.
06:05:56 mircea_popescu: right.
06:06:12 mircea_popescu: more importantly, connections on the internet don't work unilaterally.
06:06:19 mircea_popescu: so im guessing this is going to be forced by the medium.
06:06:29 artifexd: They do via UDP
06:06:31 mircea_popescu: if we were onm a purely broadcast network, it'd work right
06:06:33 mircea_popescu: myeah.
06:06:37 mircea_popescu: but udp is hard.
06:07:57 artifexd: No argument
06:08:26 mircea_popescu: im not entirely sure it is actually to any purpose important.
06:08:31 asciilifeform: udp is trivial!
06:08:33 asciilifeform: damnit.
06:08:36 asciilifeform: tcp is hard.
06:08:47 mircea_popescu: tcp is hard to employ usefully.
06:08:54 artifexd: upd is trivial for sending information if you don't care if they received it
06:09:10 artifexd: If you want a back and forth connection, you end up duplicating tcp yourself.
06:09:24 asciilifeform: artifexd: for sufficiently simple quanta, it is very easy to 'verify received' without duplicating all the cruft of tcp.
06:09:26 mircea_popescu: artifexd you will notice the spec is broadcast-oriented.
06:09:39 mircea_popescu: you don't really need to hear anything back from anyone.
06:10:10 *: asciilifeform believes the future to hold many one-way links
06:10:25 asciilifeform: shortwave radio, castaway bottles, obelisks.
06:10:58 mircea_popescu: artifexd nevertheless, since output is always encrypted to a key,
06:11:21 mircea_popescu: unilateral relations are really hard.
06:11:50 mircea_popescu: (i mean, as opposed to soft. it's not like twitter, follow X. it's the opposite, "send to X")
06:14:12 decimation: it occurs to me that one ought not design low level features into a communication system unless absolutely necessary
06:14:50 mircea_popescu: this about which bit ?
06:15:06 asciilifeform: decimation: that particular point of contention was about a kind of thing not readily retrofitted.
06:15:18 asciilifeform: it is a grave misconception that 'anything can be retrofitted.'
06:15:28 asciilifeform: if it were so, existing net protocols would suffice...
06:15:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform explain transsexuals then.
06:16:06 asciilifeform: decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#967274
06:16:10 asciilifeform: transsexuals ?
06:16:25 mircea_popescu: they get gender bits retrofitted. it's a joke.
06:16:29 asciilifeform: lol
06:16:33 asciilifeform: actually very pertitent
06:16:46 asciilifeform: good example of clumsy and very threadbare attempt at 'retrofit'
06:16:47 mircea_popescu: and impertinent at the same time!
06:16:54 asciilifeform: l0l
06:17:21 mircea_popescu: i might be especially thick, but i don't actually understand what decimation is saying.
06:17:26 mircea_popescu: which is the low level function ?
06:17:50 decimation: this was from a paper that was written by folks who designed early 80's network protocols
06:18:55 *: asciilifeform happens to be a crackpot specializing in the subject of 'abstractions being interchangeably paperable over is a mega-lie, foundations matter forever'
06:19:28 asciilifeform: you will -never- get single-packet friend-or-foe with tcp or tcp-like apparatus.
06:19:55 asciilifeform: (nor an immediate transposability to shortwave/message-in-bottle)
06:20:10 decimation: I don't see why one couldn't route ircd on top of ascii's udp-wot-internet
06:20:42 decimation: (the new ircd being proposed here)
06:20:51 mircea_popescu: ah ah that's what you mean.
06:20:56 mircea_popescu: yes, once that happens, they could.
06:21:00 mircea_popescu: not before tho.
06:22:19 mircea_popescu: decimation did you actually read the whole discussion ?
06:22:21 *: asciilifeform is about to sleep, and recommends to friends also about to sleep, to read 'petrified world.'
06:22:25 asciilifeform: good story before sleep.
06:22:31 adlai: what's this?
06:22:51 asciilifeform: (quite pertinent to this evening's thread)
06:22:57 mircea_popescu: are you 12 ?
06:23:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think i read this.
06:23:10 asciilifeform: aha srsly ?
06:23:12 decimation: I did. I find myself liking ascii's hardened bedrock
06:23:43 asciilifeform: hypothetical, sadly, bedrock
06:23:44 mircea_popescu: decimation how was the experience ?
06:23:52 *: asciilifeform does not have a battlefield-ready apparatus to offer
06:24:05 decimation: it was a good discussion, I also found it stimulating
06:24:32 decimation: but I do see the problem of broadcasting signed messages everywhere
06:24:51 mircea_popescu: cool.
06:25:04 asciilifeform: !s six words honest man
06:25:08 asciilifeform: damn.
06:25:53 asciilifeform: 'If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him.' (richilieu)
06:26:43 adlai: is this udp-over-wot concept "too long to fit in the margin", or have you sketched something about about it somewhere?
06:26:51 mircea_popescu: yes, well, this is more a function of louis than anything.
06:27:17 asciilifeform: adlai: described it at some length in #b-a at various points in the past month; also in a few comments on mircea_popescu's site.
06:27:37 adlai: !s udp wot from:ascii
06:27:42 decimation: the interent, as exists, is like tor - in the sense that the group is trying to solve the individual's problem
06:27:43 adlai: !s udp from:ascii
06:27:49 asciilifeform: adlai: must note that it is originally entirely unrelated to mircea_popescu and artifexd's project
06:27:59 decimation: the only real method of escape is layer 1 routing
06:28:08 asciilifeform: !s udp
06:28:10 asciilifeform: enjoy
06:28:29 mircea_popescu: !s udp from:asciilifeform
06:28:31 adlai: sure, this "ircd" thingy is just the latest in an uncoordinated herd of attempts to attack this same general problem
06:29:18 asciilifeform: adlai: the way i understand it, we have at least three people right here who came up with very similar - but different in important respects - attempted solutions.
06:30:11 *: adlai . o ( one could say that mpex simulates udp on top of tcp )
06:30:22 mircea_popescu: one could say that, and be uncharitable.
06:30:37 adlai: not enough "quantum"?
06:30:41 mircea_popescu: lol
06:30:56 asciilifeform: mpex was not the inspiration for my version of the concept, but was the impetus for my coming to believe that it is buildable and worth confessing to people about
06:31:06 adlai: how so?
06:31:42 asciilifeform: proving the point that stateless, medium-agnostic 'connectionless' comms are the only solid way to go.
06:31:55 adlai: I guess it's an example of something which could work equally well over udp, and just happens to use tcp for convenience
06:32:34 asciilifeform: i imagine mpex as consisting of three gurlz, in a box, in shifts, and a console.
06:32:42 mircea_popescu: no, that;'s bitbet.
06:32:43 asciilifeform: console can be connected to tcp or to radio set on valves
06:32:47 asciilifeform: or pigeon cage.
06:33:10 mircea_popescu: the kittens eat pigeons, so... no 1149
06:33:24 asciilifeform: mark twain's cat'n'rat system, lol
06:34:50 adlai: what about mpex needs tcp?
06:35:04 adlai: I guess serving up data
06:35:16 *: adlai is thinking too much like his code
06:38:00 asciilifeform: decimation: i'd classify all 'one way radio' as a single category for purpose of the discussion re: algorithmic basics.
06:38:31 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaik no "two way" exists
06:38:38 mircea_popescu: not anymore than true love,anyway.
06:38:49 decimation: yes, except physics categorizes these things naturally, in terms of propagation
06:38:50 asciilifeform: 'one way' in the customary (numbers-station-to-spies) sense
06:38:58 mircea_popescu: aha.
06:39:14 mircea_popescu: just saying, kind of an engineering convention. no point in seeing too much metaphysics behind it
06:39:15 asciilifeform: 'two way' would refer to, e.g., a microwave horn link between two montain top fortresses
06:39:34 asciilifeform: that is, can pass back-n-forth in something resembling 'real time'
06:40:08 decimation: if a receiver is capable of swallowing large power without desensitization, one can listen while one transmits arbitrarily
06:40:33 asciilifeform: in one particular physical system ('passive rfid') one arguably has genuine 'back and forth'
06:42:01 asciilifeform: in the sense of the signal in one direction being a modified, phase-shifted version of the continuous signal in the other.
06:42:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the price for this, of course, is immutability :)
06:42:56 decimation: asciilifeform: like the 'soviet embassy bug': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)
06:43:05 asciilifeform: decimation: the original 'rfid', yes
06:43:29 asciilifeform: !s theremin
06:45:57 decimation: lol theremin was a zek when he 'invented' it
06:48:41 *: asciilifeform thought that this was well-known
06:51:20 decimation: ascii you could go visit it in person apparently
06:51:26 decimation: 'the thing' I mean
06:51:43 asciilifeform: it is kept in a museum, yes.
06:51:51 asciilifeform: or at least a good copy.
06:52:05 asciilifeform: there are some historical documents that suggest the original was destroyed by clumsy inspectors.
06:54:35 asciilifeform: a somewhat younger, livelier usg had a multitude of copies produced, and used in utmost secrecy, almost immediately after the find.
06:55:15 asciilifeform: one must appreciate the kind of technological leap it was, in that period
06:55:52 asciilifeform: at that time, a typical 'bug' was not a small 'pill', easily concealed, transmitting (or recording) audio for weeks or months - the way one thinks of them now
06:56:12 asciilifeform: rather, it was a microphone, often at least as large as, say, a thimble, and a very long wire
06:56:52 asciilifeform: connecting it to either a tape recorder (no smaller, even in the most 'golden toilet' variant, than an auto pistol) - or to an actual set of headphones on a head.
06:57:27 asciilifeform: theremin's 'bug' was, from this point of view, sheerly 'martian' technology.
06:57:32 decimation: yeh it is a clever idea
06:58:48 asciilifeform: in my 'death notebook' there is a design for a purely-chemical 'bug'.
06:58:56 asciilifeform: perhaps when i am hanged, it will be manufactured somewhere.
07:00:24 asciilifeform: ('chemical' in the sense of having no appreciable electrical currents flowing, nor conductors, except in a residual, ionic sense, nor semiconductors, inside.)
07:01:56 asciilifeform: retrieve, develop (as in photograph), extract audio with simple analogue computer.
07:02:11 asciilifeform: point of fact, i think i may have said quite enough just now, such that one may construct it.
07:02:20 asciilifeform: good exercise 'for alert reader.'
07:02:50 decimation: asciilifeform: a moving 'polarid' under a modulated light would do it
07:02:55 decimation: but that would have a current
07:03:15 asciilifeform: moving parts (except in the bare minimum of diaphragm) are a no-no.
07:03:48 ben_vulpes: ah that's rich
07:04:05 asciilifeform: but it is not especially hard to set up a chemical reaction that acts as a travelling 'record needle.'
07:04:06 Naphex: thanks o/
07:04:14 ben_vulpes: no wavefronts are a thing
07:04:22 ben_vulpes: f'n bril, asciilifeform.
07:04:26 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes gets it
07:04:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform weren;t you going to bed ?
07:04:45 asciilifeform: was. probably will soon enough
07:04:49 asciilifeform: sent woman to bed already
07:05:00 ben_vulpes: matter of fact listening to you and mircea_popescu and artifexed go on has been educational and illuminating in any number of ways
07:05:00 mircea_popescu: haha you know the rickjles joke ?
07:05:02 ben_vulpes: much obliged
07:05:17 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes o you had fun ?
07:05:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: glad you took some interest in it. take the time later to write some comments?
07:05:28 asciilifeform: rickjles ?
07:05:52 mircea_popescu: "we were going to make it, so i told the wife, go ahead and get started, i'ma grab a paper"
07:06:25 mircea_popescu: perhaps too ny jewish joke.
07:07:41 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> "fun" << myeah something like fun
07:07:56 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy << this one in particular
07:20:18 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu>  and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd. << means that if you want everything you say on the record, operate a server for your identity.
07:20:51 ben_vulpes: how to preserve the serenissima log semantics though? if all "chat lines" are wholly deniable, the notion of a public forum in which to do business publically falls apart.
07:21:56 ben_vulpes: !up asciilifeform
07:22:09 ben_vulpes: it only works for us, and sort of right now (?!?!?) because once upon a time assbot relied on the "authedness" of users via the "gribble" service.
07:22:12 ben_vulpes: ;;ident
07:25:01 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform>  that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain! << yeah but only half
07:26:22 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes how does it fall apart ?
07:26:40 ben_vulpes: how does it maintain any sort of relevance, if it can be polluted by...
07:26:51 ben_vulpes: ah i guess the log only makes sense as maintained by someone in a wot
07:26:52 mircea_popescu: by ?
07:27:10 mircea_popescu: take the eutherium short as a good working example.
07:27:23 mircea_popescu: this identity, which may be me unless i deny it, proposes he will sign a contract so and so.
07:27:23 ben_vulpes: by anyone who cares to transmit with a bogus "from"
07:27:26 mircea_popescu: you agree to the terms.
07:27:32 mircea_popescu: the contract is forthwith produced.
07:27:35 mircea_popescu: now it's unrepudiable.
07:27:51 mircea_popescu: no contract appears. well... now you cantell whoever you see me through that wtf is this bs.
07:27:58 mircea_popescu: seems perfect.
07:28:16 ben_vulpes: i was commenting at the point in the discusison at which messages were unsigned. did messages become signed?
07:28:20 mircea_popescu: it is also EXACTLY how it worked,
07:28:29 mircea_popescu: except once the few derps flaked, i had nobody to complain to.
07:28:48 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no but recall the thing itself i refer to. a pastebin contract was in fact proferred.
07:28:57 ben_vulpes: sure
07:29:02 mircea_popescu: that.
07:29:37 ben_vulpes: forgive the dunce cap hanging over my eyes, but i'm entirely failing to see how this makes for an unrepudiable log of the forum.
07:29:46 mircea_popescu: it does not.
07:29:57 mircea_popescu: it only makes for an unrepudiable log of what matters.
07:30:23 ben_vulpes: "what matters" << to a keyset though, not "to everyone"
07:30:33 mircea_popescu: because "everyone" does not matter.
07:30:39 mircea_popescu: no more overhanging mega-group.
07:30:42 mircea_popescu: people. just and only.
07:31:05 ben_vulpes: not a record of all strings sent to "#b-a", but a record of all strings sent to "#b-a" as seen by the lN of "assbot".
07:31:25 mircea_popescu: that exists, for each item in l(N).
07:31:32 mircea_popescu: and for them only.
07:31:45 *: mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone.
07:32:14 ben_vulpes: it's because we're all distracted by the hyperattractor 30d above the horizon and 15 deg port!
07:32:26 mircea_popescu: wait wut
07:33:18 ben_vulpes: bad joke; disregard
07:34:37 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform>  probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho. << strikes me that a series of "rating" messages should be parsed to build a rating history.
07:36:42 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform>  i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary << wotchains, perchance?
07:38:15 BingoBoingo: * mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone. << Had to watchh for a while, but it clicked all at once
07:38:34 mircea_popescu: wots are trivially doublespent. as part of normal functioning.
07:39:11 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo o it did ? makes sens enow as a whole ?
07:40:31 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah. the skeleton in the RFC wasn't as revealing as the conversation was. gossipd putting the emphasis on Relay in IRC
07:42:13 mircea_popescu: maybe you should write a restatement ? curious how it'd read.
07:44:17 BingoBoingo: Needs more time to coalesce on brain. Might be on the order tomorrow.
07:45:09 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/fderp-december-2014-statement/
07:45:28 mircea_popescu: no rush really.
07:50:55 BingoBoingo: The challenge is the edge cases in the discussion really make the thing click.
07:53:17 mircea_popescu: anyway, on contemplation i actually see this as my finest work to date.
07:53:19 mircea_popescu: in any field.
07:53:50 mircea_popescu: this is the only kind of youth one could possibly wish for themselves.
07:56:26 BingoBoingo: And it's the kind of youth one has to be older than 30 to experience.
08:00:30 mircea_popescu: i had the feeling when i was 16 :D
08:04:07 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
08:08:44 Vexual: y'all are fixing irc? better close that copper shoert.
08:11:32 Vexual: what does rfc mean?
08:13:05 Vexual: oh
08:14:32 Vexual: nice
08:16:23 mircea_popescu: that belt type, by the way, with themetal rounds ?
08:16:28 mircea_popescu: absolute best type for belting butts.
09:15:44 cazalla: holy fucking logs
10:17:32 fluffypony: shock and horror
10:17:48 fluffypony: such a surprise
10:17:50 fluffypony: who knew
10:17:57 fluffypony: /thread
10:34:37 fluffypony: !up punkman1
10:34:54 fluffypony: punkman1: gribble is still offline
10:34:57 fluffypony: !up punkman
10:43:27 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/01/changetip-spam-moves-beyond-twitter-youtube-reddit/
11:56:55 cazalla: !up RagnarDanneskjol
11:57:16 cazalla: well, no longer auth'd so no help to you sorry RagnarDanneskjol
12:23:12 jurov: holy log
13:09:44 jurov: !up Vexual
13:55:19 thestringpuller: fraudsters is down
13:59:11 mod6: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cngsj0b << ``OH GAVIN, DO YOU WANT SOME BUNNY COINZ?! WHERE CAN WE ALL LINE UP TO FELLATE YOU FOR BREAKING BITCOIN?''
14:00:59 mod6: shit makes me so mad i want to punch two birds in the face: http://media.coindesk.com/2014/04/Gavin-with-cockie1.jpg
14:01:23 thestringpuller: Prepare for war boys.
14:01:29 mod6: prepare?
14:01:34 mod6: lol.
14:02:04 thestringpuller: He declared war on us!
14:02:13 thestringpuller: "A minority is opposed"
14:02:17 thestringpuller: >:(
14:02:33 mod6: Since like 2014.10.22 I've been stabbing derps.
14:02:57 thestringpuller: chyeeeaaauh
14:03:02 mod6: :D
14:03:09 thestringpuller: mod6 run da streetz and gets no sleeep
14:03:13 thestringpuller: CHEEEEEYYYEEEAAAUH
14:03:17 thestringpuller: MAH NIGGAS WAR READY!
14:03:19 thestringpuller: llololol
14:07:22 mod6: thestringpuller: Last Of A Dying Breed
14:18:13 jurov: cue thestringpuller chest thumping in full gear
14:22:16 jurov: someone pls up nubbins`
14:22:22 jurov: i cannot anymore :(
14:22:32 mod6: !up nubbins`
14:22:38 nubbins`: ty
14:22:49 nubbins`: wanted to share this, thought you guys might appreciate
14:23:25 nubbins`: it just pulls news stories from other websites and does blind word replacement on the articles, to make them seem original
14:24:49 mod6: ``Error establishing database connection''
14:29:05 nubbins`: nod guess 3 of us at once is too much
14:30:29 mod6: heh :]
14:46:19 fluffypony: lol nubbins`
14:46:22 fluffypony: "A self-murder bomber pushing a minibus full of explosives killed during slightest 30 people Wednesday morning as cadets collected nearby a military academy in a heart of Yemen’s capital"
14:46:33 fluffypony: "Skydivers burst to reserve before craft crashes"
15:04:32 jurov: Police were called. They contend a 35-year-old Angus, Ont., male was inebriated and incompetent to scrupulously caring for himself.
15:05:43 jurov: "competent to scrupulously care for oneself" lol this is CV material
15:06:50 jurov: "Lovers of all things sly gathered to move on a holiday cheer, tell a few jokes and lift income for cats with no place to call home." indeed
15:10:05 thestringpuller: jurov: haha. not so much cyrus from "The Warriors"
15:10:12 thestringpuller: "CAN YOU SUCKAS COUNT"
15:13:43 TomServo: !up saifedean
15:14:44 saifedean: Good evening, gentlemen, how goes it?
15:16:34 TomServo: 'evening. It goes well, aside from the gribble vacation.
15:17:38 saifedean: word on the street is that the noob ddosing subsided, so i dropped by
15:18:11 thestringpuller: "CAN YOU SUCKAS COUNT"
15:22:47 jurov: lots of derp tho
15:53:45 thestringpuller: !up HeySteve
15:55:23 thestringpuller: !t m s.qntr
15:55:40 thestringpuller: !l m S.qntr
16:01:26 thestringpuller: good morning mr. chairman
16:04:36 mircea_popescu: "Not everyone who wants an immediate confirmation will be able to get it, regardless of how much they pay. If there's more people wanting next-block confirmation than there are slots in the block, it's mathematically guaranteed that people will miss out. As network usage grows, the percentage of unsatisfied users will grow linearly with it."
16:04:39 mircea_popescu: check out the idiocy lol.
16:05:04 mircea_popescu: "i want it" "are you paying for it ?" "no, but i still want it" "because ?" "because i say so, damn it" "this isn't fiat, billy" "fuck you stop opressing me"
16:05:22 thestringpuller: that's a good way to put it
16:05:36 thestringpuller: like a kid having a temper tantrum in a store because mommy won't buy him gummy bears
16:06:04 mircea_popescu: anyway, i kinda enjoy all this acting as if they have an option in the matter.
16:06:13 *: mircea_popescu really hopes he will actualyl get to rape this crowd.
16:06:20 mircea_popescu: damn it'll be so sweet.
16:08:20 thestringpuller: that's kublai/ghengis khan talk there
16:08:54 thestringpuller: so who declared the war?
16:09:27 thestringpuller: Gavin is provoking war, for what reason?
16:10:46 mircea_popescu: he's just doing what told. "for democracy".
16:11:12 mircea_popescu: whatever mini-nuland is in charge does not understand that there are forces more powerful on the field, who "do not understand how the world works"
16:12:08 thestringpuller: but even so any fork at all needs to be killed immediately. it splits network power and lowers security.
16:12:17 thestringpuller: ideally killing the fork before it's even a thing.
16:12:54 mircea_popescu: i do not see this.
16:13:11 mircea_popescu: the expensive and painful slow roasting of idiots is a very valuable output.
16:13:17 thestringpuller: care to elaborate?
16:13:27 mircea_popescu: their cries of pain and outrage should be preserved for posterity, to teach others.
16:13:44 thestringpuller: heh.
16:14:10 thestringpuller: benevolent AND merciful
16:14:14 mircea_popescu: the fact that no lord ever wanted whoever he punished to ever die is directly apparent if you look at two things : their artists made hell be eternal torture ; the bodies lay in the gibbet at the gate for much longer than the dude inside survived.
16:14:45 mircea_popescu: so no, if it lasts forever and it's nothing but a hellish cried of the tortured all the better.
16:15:50 mircea_popescu: sadly this won't be possible here, like it's not possible generally, but in spirit.
16:16:48 thestringpuller: i'm visualizing a classroom full of students pointing and laughing at Gavin while he struggles to find emotions and reactions
16:27:18 PeterL: hi
16:27:57 mircea_popescu: how goes.
16:28:04 mircea_popescu: btw, you know scoopbot website is not werk ?
16:28:21 PeterL: yeah, I know, I need to fix it
16:28:48 PeterL: I think my server is blocked from fraudsters?
16:29:10 mircea_popescu: pm me ip. did it make a ton of requests ?
16:32:51 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#968556 << kid is practically begging to be beaten, they won't oblige.
16:42:11 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo cazalla here's a pretty good tip for qntra :
16:43:35 mircea_popescu: nejc/bitstamp crew allege that hacker somehow got into their system, stole privkeys for their addresses, AND THEN deleted their copies. magically. they were all online or something, who knows.
16:43:49 mircea_popescu: HOWEVER. one of those addresses is http://bitbet.us/stats/1QJRfCctSz7BLriE7CiF5LefBXJgm6Jcax/
16:43:57 mircea_popescu: in continuous use from dec 18th.
16:44:12 thestringpuller: whoa
16:44:19 mircea_popescu: now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ?
16:44:56 asciilifeform: ty mircea_popescu
16:45:00 mircea_popescu: my pleasure.
16:45:18 thestringpuller: sorry to hear you got the flu asciilifeform
16:45:30 thestringpuller: the joys of slave labor in US eh?
16:47:37 asciilifeform: if i knew how to earn bread without leaving home, i would
16:47:43 asciilifeform: perhaps i ought to attend spam school.
16:48:22 PeterL: my father-in-law earns a living at home in his pajamas, programming
16:48:43 mircea_popescu: "Piketty, some would say, is king. I say Piketty has shown, like Gibbon, what is possible. "
16:48:47 mircea_popescu: is this the french commie ?
17:12:46 mircea_popescu: ahhh the fact reddit is so in favour of this hardfork business is so great :D
17:12:58 mircea_popescu: hot damn i hope they go through with it
17:13:46 mod6: tie them to the radiator and grape them in the mouth
17:14:47 mircea_popescu: lol
17:15:32 fluffypony: what hardfork business?
17:15:46 mircea_popescu: fluffypony but the logs!
17:16:02 fluffypony: it's holiday season :-P
17:16:31 mircea_popescu: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/cnhdze7?context=3 << check it out, hashname perseveres.
17:16:37 mircea_popescu: fluffypony links for you there, as it happens.
17:16:56 fluffypony: ah ok
17:22:31 mircea_popescu: nubbins`: it just pulls news stories from other websites and does blind word replacement on the articles, to make them seem original <<< there's a million of these.
17:23:35 mircea_popescu: who the fuck is Taylor Swift
17:24:08 mircea_popescu: "american singer-songwriter and actress"
17:24:09 thestringpuller: !b 1
17:24:12 mircea_popescu: why am i so surprised.
17:24:19 thestringpuller: !b 4
17:30:09 mircea_popescu: "The IETF, obviously fearing irrelevance, hastily "discovered" that the HTTP/1.1 protocol needed an update, and tasked a working group with preparing it on an unrealistically short schedule. This ruled out any basis for the new HTTP/2.0 other than the SPDY protocol. With only the most hideous of SPDY's warts removed, and all other attempts at improvement rejected as "not in scope," "too late," or "no consensus," the IE
17:30:10 mircea_popescu: TF can now claim relevance and victory by conceding practically every principle ever held dear in return for the privilege of rubber-stamping Google's initiative."
17:30:12 mircea_popescu: heh. quite.
17:30:20 mircea_popescu: as if irrelevance can ever be averted by this sort of thing.
17:30:46 mircea_popescu: it's like making dogs blind to your fear by shaking uncontrollably.
17:36:11 mircea_popescu: jurov: lots of derp tho << i kinda liked his piece tbh.
17:36:54 jurov: ncfaci meant the bits where he promoted self-signed certs
17:37:18 mircea_popescu: are they bad ?
17:37:41 mircea_popescu: ;;ud ncfaci
17:38:03 jurov: lol that's just keyfart
17:39:09 asciilifeform: if using the ssl crock of shit at all, being your own signing authority (instead of swallowing the master key bullshit and extortionary fees of the 'authorities') is the only way to go
17:39:11 mircea_popescu: oh
17:39:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is what i thought too.
17:39:31 asciilifeform: elementarily true
17:39:33 mircea_popescu: after all "self-signed" cert can be edged into proper gpg signed matter, and it's all good.
17:39:55 asciilifeform: and if a 'luser' won't read or can't remember the genuine fingerprint, and won't write it down, whatever - he has no business owning computer
17:40:06 mircea_popescu: obviously "one has no way of knowing" if a self signed cert is good. but if there's also a .asc on the server... i'd say it's a damned sight better than "Verizon certifies"
17:40:48 asciilifeform: in case anyone needs to be reminded of this - ssl remains a crock of shit - as in, the entire protocol stack is porous and comically maldesigned
17:41:03 mircea_popescu: no contest.
17:42:10 mircea_popescu: jurov im curious to hear the self signed cert reasoning tbh.
17:42:55 asciilifeform: the traditional party line is 'oh noez you'll be mitm-ed if your browser doesn't refuse self-signed'
17:43:55 mircea_popescu: sure, but i has a high regard of jurov.
17:44:09 asciilifeform: jurov: what did you have in mind ?
17:44:17 kakobrekla: unfortunately things people call browsers dont like to swallow self signed.
17:44:30 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: this is because the browsers are usg projects.
17:44:40 asciilifeform: in certain cases, directly
17:45:23 mircea_popescu: check this out : http://www.westernjournalism.com/breaking-12-killed-french-islamic-terror-attack-real-story/
17:45:28 mircea_popescu: IT CAN NOT BE TERRORISM!!!
17:45:44 jurov: i believe self-signed certs are usable only for private use
17:45:51 jurov: and even they they are PITA
17:45:58 kakobrekla: yes they are so cause browsers.
17:46:09 jurov: so they are not "almost zero cost"
17:46:13 mircea_popescu: jurov what's private use ?
17:46:40 mircea_popescu: allah hates comedy. who knew.
17:46:53 jurov: inside a company for example
17:46:58 asciilifeform: yes, usg succeeded in setting up the situation where every luserplebe's browser will ring bells, flash lights, if a cert didn't come with a hitler signature
17:47:34 asciilifeform: some of the newer browsers, iirc, won't even give him the option of swallowing
17:47:39 jurov: i don't contest that
17:47:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they also managed this situation where all the shit online carries a "5000 derps that don't really exist LIKE THIS"
17:47:50 mircea_popescu: because yes, absolutely, moar democracy.
17:48:26 asciilifeform: demoocracy aha.
17:48:26 mircea_popescu: jurov so you mean, it only works for sessions where the user knows/trusts the source, as opposed to whatever, random drive-by publishing ?
17:48:35 mircea_popescu: would work for a bank, wouldn't work for a newspaper sort of thing ?
17:48:39 jurov: i'm looking forward how are they going to solve it in libressl, if ever
17:50:31 jurov: i don't see how every time i'm accessing anything via https/smtps i'm going to think whether this is the right cert
17:50:44 jurov: tools like surl don't save it like ssh
17:50:47 jurov: *curl
17:51:11 mircea_popescu: jurov my browser allows me to save cert for later ?
17:51:18 mircea_popescu: checks against it as if it were verizon'd, no difference
17:51:23 mircea_popescu: is this minority behaviour ?
17:51:27 jurov: i am not talking about browser, that's lost cause
17:51:38 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ? << I don't see any new bets after the 4th. COuld just be a derp who wanted to "win" to his Bitstamp deposit address?
17:51:45 mircea_popescu: curl similarily imports certs ?
17:52:01 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo wasn't the actual breach prior to the 4th ?
17:52:09 mircea_popescu: as opposed to announcement thereof ?
17:52:09 jurov: it annoys me to no end when i install self-signed cert and even if i try to distribute it between machines, some dam curl-like tool breaks
17:53:07 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs.
17:53:15 jurov: also, email clients. it was *not* possible to make all them work with self-signed cert
17:53:25 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i guess that works out then, prolly a customer.
17:53:28 mircea_popescu: a well.
17:53:53 jurov: it's just all lost cause. self-signed certs yes, but only after ssl/tls is ditched.
17:54:01 mircea_popescu: jurov well ok, by and large for any expectation it won't be possible to make "all" work. because anyone can anything, and well...
17:54:25 mircea_popescu: but i see whatcha mean. "not politically favoured, so not as well ironed out, so harder to use"
17:54:26 jurov: it's much easier with ssh for example
17:54:37 mircea_popescu: well yes, partly because ssh has no verizon.
17:54:41 mircea_popescu: you gotta put your key in
17:55:10 mircea_popescu: whodda thought, you know, that NOT invoving an us company is better.
18:02:19 mircea_popescu: lol
18:04:23 BingoBoingo: pete suggested: "Maybe they are better at keeping it on the down low".
18:05:06 mircea_popescu: what atlantic really means is "why are there so few black scammers in bitcoin, because that's all we know about anyway". and the reason couldn't possibly be "because they're just more honest than whitey"
18:06:22 thestringpuller: hah!
18:06:23 thestringpuller: hahah!
18:06:39 mircea_popescu: tis true.
18:06:43 thestringpuller: except for Lamar
18:06:45 thestringpuller: of Pheeva
18:06:58 thestringpuller: pretty sure he's taking bitpay cock up da butt knowing the implications
18:07:06 mircea_popescu: you keep going. you'll run out before i'm done enumerating pasty ass.
18:07:29 thestringpuller: hahaha! i thought only black people used "pasty white person" phrasing
18:07:39 mircea_popescu: im also black
18:07:41 thestringpuller: gotta love pasty white girls who are afraid of the sun like vampires tho ;)
18:07:42 mircea_popescu: in my spare time.
18:08:11 thestringpuller: o i kno
18:08:21 thestringpuller: MP is og
18:08:33 mircea_popescu: anyway, i have no problem with dudes going "oh, blacks do all teh crime!!!" if that's what they believe, and start running off stats about it. big whoop. but it's funny how nobody happens to fucking noticing the OTHER stats.
18:08:50 thestringpuller: mir-dizzle to the popes-rizzle
18:08:52 mircea_popescu: "black on black violence in the ghetto is so and so!!1". fine. and white on white scamming in bitcoin is how ?
18:09:17 BingoBoingo: !b 1
18:09:33 asciilifeform: i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc.
18:09:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah. the shit run by jews in 1935.
18:09:55 asciilifeform: the very same
18:09:56 mircea_popescu: and by italians in 1955.
18:10:02 mircea_popescu: probably on the same damned exact stones.
18:10:08 asciilifeform: quite likely.
18:10:17 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc. << Replaced by same game with different operator "Lottery"
18:10:21 mircea_popescu: i went to school in this huge, what you'd call super-preppy thing.
18:10:36 mircea_popescu: and i have this distinct memory of a kid being pissed of at some chick, and going to carve "X is a whore" in the wall
18:10:38 BingoBoingo: Exurb
18:10:46 mircea_popescu: except... there was that ALREADY carved there. easily 50 years old.
18:10:49 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the interesting thing is that usg has not succeeded in entirely displacing the native, ethnic 'lotteries'
18:10:49 mircea_popescu: same name, same exact string.
18:13:21 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell pete_dushenski "Their habitual attacks on forums is usually" << are.
18:15:46 mircea_popescu: "But what of it? How does this effect you? Well, it effects" affects you. afect is another name for sentiment. to affect is to cause an effect upon something. to effect, confusingly enough, is to cause the execution of something. so, you effect legislation, and that legislation affects people.
18:21:45 saifedean: hai there, mp, thanks for the voice
18:22:08 mircea_popescu: np
18:25:43 kakobrekla: win
18:25:56 mircea_popescu: "Keep up the good work!"
18:26:05 kakobrekla: temp site looking good!
18:26:17 TomServo: very nice shade of green!
18:26:24 kakobrekla: all green, nicely done. Safe choice of colors.
18:26:26 mircea_popescu: when are they bringing the fractional reserve back up ?
18:31:21 asciilifeform: 'got fish? nope, this is the meat counter. fish is what they don't have at the fish counter.'
18:31:45 mircea_popescu: lol
18:32:14 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://cdn.collarspace.com/photos/2173196p03.jpg?01072015085027
18:54:06 mod6: kakobrekla: lol!
18:54:44 kakobrekla: as safe as their hot wallet
18:54:56 *: asciilifeform reread last night's thread, and grasped mircea_popescu deniable-transmissions scheme.
18:55:09 mircea_popescu: better on 2nd pass huh ?
18:55:13 asciilifeform: aha
18:55:16 asciilifeform: also better when awake
18:55:18 mircea_popescu: cool!
18:55:19 mircea_popescu: lol
18:55:30 mircea_popescu: saifedean answered.
18:57:27 mircea_popescu: by the way, requiem for a dream. good film.
18:57:52 *: asciilifeform saw, some years ago, liked
19:06:06 kakobrekla: btw bitstamp is moving operations to us (prolly sf).
19:06:26 kakobrekla: you heard it here phirst.
19:06:30 asciilifeform: l0l!
19:07:12 mike_c: interesting. they must be retaining UK incorporation, no? I would think it would be legal shitstorm otherwise.
19:07:35 kakobrekla: i dont think so but dont have the details.
19:08:00 mike_c: they should come to NYC. very bitcoin friendly. just drop all your coins off at lawsky's office on the way into town.
19:08:06 BingoBoingo: Mebbe they think legal shitstorm is to their benefit for filing bankruptcy?
19:10:02 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla so they can "cover" by being bought.
19:10:32 mircea_popescu: something tells me they have nfi how to write a term sheet, and there's about 50-50 odds of the financer backing out.
19:10:38 mircea_popescu: tl;dr : this won't end well.
19:11:59 mircea_popescu: watch how in a few short months it won't be possible to buy bitcoin at any price.
19:12:27 mircea_popescu: i guess ima have to bring an exchange online willy-nilly.
19:32:36 BingoBoingo: "Attacks cell walls" You know just what penicillin and the rest of the beta-lactams do: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-07/antibiotic-breakthrough-ends-25-year-discovery-drought.html
20:08:38 asciilifeform: wai wat, mircea_popescu with an exchange ?!
20:08:46 *: asciilifeform will fly to conf3 on a pig, if this happens
20:10:53 BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform will fly to conf3 on a pig, if this happens << The Fairchild "WartHog"???
20:12:20 artifexd: mircea_popescu: Regarding gossipd, do you have any preference for the data flowing over the wire as binary or text?
20:14:29 artifexd: Binary would mean shorter messages because fingerprint a would only take up 20 bytes (instead of 40) and keys would not have to be armored. Text would make the flow easier to read/debug but the data would necessarily take up more space.
20:20:50 jurov: artifecd did you research some existing ideas?
20:21:04 jurov: i liked http://twistedmatrix.com/documents/8.2.0/api/twisted.protocols.amp.html but did not try it in practice
20:49:08 cazalla: mircea_popescu: HOWEVER. one of those addresses is http://bitbet.us/stats/1QJRfCctSz7BLriE7CiF5LefBXJgm6Jcax/ <<< isn't this just a case of someone using their bitstamp deposit address for bitbet payouts, even kakobrekla mentioned this http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=05-01-2015#965903
20:51:13 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rkt1u/coinbase_give_us_the_right_to_run_your_credit/cngz6fs a voice of reason
21:16:49 cazalla: BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs. <<< and there is still the issue of what amount of coins will not honoured by bitstamp after the annoucement
21:35:08 asciilifeform: artifexd: text?! wtf
21:37:55 asciilifeform: jurov: and what is that gnarly pythonism.
21:39:01 *: asciilifeform wonders if he woke up in some alternate universe #b-a full of www-dev folks
21:46:40 mircea_popescu: artifexd it's always encrypted, so what do you mean text ?
21:50:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/01/lawmakers-facebook-rant-threatens-media-for-unauthorized-use-of-his-name << turns out we have these here.
22:03:58 Apocalyptic: "mircea_popescu:i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion." // so did I, thanks for the priceless logs
22:05:38 mircea_popescu: cazalla seems so, yes.
22:05:51 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller not bad. invite them over.
22:06:08 mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic cool!
22:18:05 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/oil-theory/#comment-111275 perhaps of broad interest seeing the fork war context.
22:18:25 mircea_popescu: last para at any rate.
22:23:49 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'Let them have scrip, will be good enough for them...' << usd is not already scrip ?
22:23:58 mircea_popescu: quite.
22:24:28 asciilifeform: admittedly, a peculiar kind of scrip, for which one can get certain things overseas (for the time being)
22:25:49 asciilifeform: at some point, usd will no longer be a 'convertible' unit. completing its transition to equivalent of the soviet ruble.
22:26:18 asciilifeform: really the definition, if there is one, of 'scrip.'
22:26:27 asciilifeform: just like you can't spend subway tokens outside of the subway.
22:27:41 mike_c: ^ it is also illegal to sell them.. such bullshit.
22:27:45 undata: "and then the ashes of their apps were all that remained"
22:32:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'The notion that gold supply does not increase a lot is predicated on obsolete technology. Gold supply would increase quite a lot, and in really harmful ways involving cyanide, if it seriously became monetized.' << iirc, cyanidation was SOP since 1890s.
22:32:29 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: now, harmful methods involving - neutrons? yes.
22:32:29 mircea_popescu: sure.
22:32:55 mircea_popescu: just, lemme fish this out
22:33:12 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2010/hai-sa-facem-si-noi-de-astea/
22:33:17 mircea_popescu: that's one of those large excavators
22:33:21 mircea_popescu: THAT was not sop in 1890s
22:33:56 asciilifeform: aha.
22:34:28 asciilifeform: butugychag rennaissance is inevitable anyway
22:34:45 asciilifeform: quite a few increasingly scarce strategic minerals, all across mendeleev table.
22:37:19 undata: asciilifeform: seems like an economic meltdown would also decrease the demand for those for new iPhones
22:38:03 asciilifeform: for pNohes - down. for bolometers used in heat-seeking rocket - up.
22:39:14 asciilifeform: it's an elementary 'who at this table starves last' situation
22:41:40 BingoBoingo: I'm pretty sure pNohe sellers could find a way to make resistive touchscreens fashionable again.
22:42:56 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: In is not the only scarce mineral.
22:44:11 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Sure.
22:45:31 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'Currency generally is in the hands of a selected few, this situation where every man woman and child holds some is an exception, and I suspect coming to an end.' << i recall being shown, as a boy, an 1890s ru coin that 'would feed a family for a month!111!!'
22:46:56 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this kind of thing worked in 'tribal' structure, where most folks are reasonably 'close to the soil' and grow/kill the necessities of life personally. i suppose it also works in a concentration camp - though, iirc, these also typically have a kind of scrip and so aren't entirely free of currency.
22:47:36 mircea_popescu: it will work fine in the world of the future
22:47:54 mircea_popescu: independence is predicated on something other than being a redditor.
22:47:59 asciilifeform: i'd guess more of a #2 than 1
22:48:58 asciilifeform: does 'reddit' really differ in any fundamental way, as a basic urban treadmill, from 1700s english gin, or roman circuses ?
22:51:58 BingoBoingo: Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin.
22:52:19 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu>  o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this. << lord am i
22:52:23 ben_vulpes: 100% serious
22:53:53 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-07-2014#772767
22:56:23 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Naturally. I still wait for California's Seirra Nevada range to be inverted in the quest for rare minerals and to create H2O reservoir capacity to sustain the prisons and work farms.
22:59:29 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i'm expecting to end up in an inca-style, rather than soviet-style, camp
23:00:33 ben_vulpes: !up mats
23:00:35 ben_vulpes: wb mats
23:00:38 asciilifeform: that is, there is a fence to keep folks from leaving; they are left to fend for selves for food and water within the confines; and if the weekly quota of $metal is not brought to the gates in timely manner, there are public educaxecutions
23:01:04 asciilifeform: perhaps we should refer to this as 'belgian' method
23:01:15 BingoBoingo: Belgian method sounds about right.
23:01:28 BingoBoingo: Leopold, that man had ideas.
23:01:37 asciilifeform: what ideas. spain was there long first.
23:01:52 ben_vulpes: someone up mats plz
23:01:56 BingoBoingo: Leopold tried on a harsher continent.
23:01:58 asciilifeform: and the basic notion of working folks to death in a mine - is ancient.
23:01:59 BingoBoingo: !up mats
23:02:09 ben_vulpes: wait are we actually using altgribble for auth now?
23:02:21 asciilifeform: who?
23:02:21 BingoBoingo: Leopold's flavor also came with an exit strategy.
23:02:32 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: I've just stayed connected.
23:02:38 ben_vulpes: me too.
23:02:39 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: everything comes with 'exit strategy'
23:02:48 asciilifeform: just not necessarily the one you might like
23:05:01 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu and kakobrekla have been voicing folks by hand.
23:05:34 ben_vulpes: yeah but how come BingoBoingo gets to !up and not me
23:05:38 *: ben_vulpes stomps foot petulantly
23:06:04 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes cause he kept an uninterrupted connection and assbot still sees him
23:06:20 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Maybe your connection just needs to be less wonh
23:06:25 ben_vulpes: when did assbot come back?
23:06:25 ben_vulpes: ;;ident
23:06:34 ben_vulpes: you know what?
23:06:35 asciilifeform: assbot, afaik, never died
23:06:38 ben_vulpes: i don't actually care.
23:06:49 mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin. <<< there;'s tons of "gin as virtue" songs and oral liuterature.
23:06:52 asciilifeform: it's simply rudderless w/out gribble
23:07:00 ben_vulpes: derp, i meant gribble.
23:07:01 mircea_popescu: it was not preserved in writing because the mps of the time did not see itworthy of their wot.
23:07:31 asciilifeform: 'work is the curse of the drinking class' !
23:08:18 mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> wait are we actually using altgribble for auth now? << no.
23:08:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc, a good bit of that stuff -was- preserved in writing - of a kind. e.g., 'broadside ballads'
23:08:55 mircea_popescu: sure.
23:12:17 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform>  hitler does know considerably more under the all-signed scenario than alternative. << your sought "morale hit"
23:13:08 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i did, later, grasp mircea_popescu's deniable-transmission algo
23:13:12 kakobrekla: ben_vulpes you can speak cause you have ops not cause authed with gribble and assbot.
23:13:53 kakobrekla: and you cant !up, but you can +voice
23:14:18 ben_vulpes: confession time, i know nothing about the arcana of irc modes
23:14:26 mircea_popescu: join the club.
23:14:27 ben_vulpes: gossipd when
23:14:43 mircea_popescu: as soon as artifexd gets exactly drunk enough ?
23:14:45 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: trick is that two directly-connected cells may as well be exchanging signed msgs. but relayed msgs (in, e.g., cells a -> b -> c, from a to c) are 'gossip' - that is, 'deniable.'
23:15:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform precisely
23:16:05 ben_vulpes: clever, neh?
23:16:28 ben_vulpes: i imagine we'll all be running our own cells initially.
23:16:43 mircea_popescu: permanently ?
23:16:45 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: how do you propose to use the hypothetical gizmo without running a cell ?
23:16:59 mircea_popescu: i suppose once webchat is enabled you could use that.
23:17:01 ben_vulpes: how does someone relay a message to a cell and from a cell to another cell?
23:17:15 mircea_popescu: dude just read it first lol;
23:17:17 mircea_popescu: ask after.
23:17:26 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: manually configured peers
23:17:34 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: do read mircea_popescu's article, it is very concise.
23:19:06 ben_vulpes: forgive the extremely poorly articulated comment.
23:19:42 ben_vulpes: i imagine a steady-state future where people operate gossipd cells in much the same way that ircd's are operated on fleanode.
23:20:12 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: rather more like bitcoin - in that you introduce messages into the net by loading them into your own cell
23:20:27 asciilifeform: which then propagates to your peers
23:21:07 asciilifeform: (i forget if this was mircea_popescu's terminology in the original article, or not)
23:21:46 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha but you cannot really have this, unless you - in particular - or one of your peers - wants to create a public toilet for spam and give it peerage
23:22:14 ben_vulpes: it *will* happen.
23:22:24 ben_vulpes: the structure of the thing implies many wots.
23:22:25 asciilifeform: if one carries on with such, may find himself on a rather smaller and lonelier gossipnet
23:22:31 asciilifeform: than before.
23:22:58 ben_vulpes: doubtful, see the ever prolix reddit.
23:23:16 asciilifeform: incidentally i don't recall if any of you lot suggested this, but: max-graph-degrees knob.
23:23:35 asciilifeform: for when you want a 'louder', 'more new blood' sort of experience - crank clockwise.
23:24:26 asciilifeform: for the radio aficionados among us, let's call it 'squelch'
23:24:30 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes there's no value in imposing values for poeople.
23:24:46 mircea_popescu: just as long as i can isolate the redditd from my machine, the people who want to be in there are more then welcome to their own choices.
23:24:51 mircea_popescu: freedom is this, not something else.
23:25:35 ben_vulpes: i'm not suggesting any values be forced on anyone.
23:25:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought it's implicit in the spec, in the "receiver decides if to relay" : you can configure a client to pass, to user or other clients, whatever you wish
23:26:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in a way, it is. but sort of left as an exercise.
23:26:16 mircea_popescu: yea. well honestly most everything is so left.
23:26:26 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes granted. i just mean... so they do,more power to em.
23:27:24 *: ben_vulpes intends to run an open relay node - openly disclosed as such for those in the mood to twiddle knobs
23:27:40 ben_vulpes: cell, excuse me.
23:28:33 mircea_popescu: sure
23:30:56 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: "hashname" << have ye unleashed the valkyrie on reddit?
23:31:22 mircea_popescu: i dunno who it is
23:31:42 mircea_popescu: but some youthful enthusiast,i got a few offline pms.
23:59:55 thestringpuller: !up tsp_2