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Transcript for 07-02-2015, 1366 lines:

00:00:02 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo so is the "fake kidnapped kid" story the result of "boy telling school what happened"

00:00:15 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Indeed.

00:00:21 mircea_popescu: or is it the result of phone interception -> police telling school to ask kid -> kid not denying convincingly

00:00:44 asciilifeform: http://vocore.io/wiki/index << wants to be a node.

00:00:45 assbot: VoCore | A coin-sized Linux computer with wifi ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnPbMx )

00:01:09 asciilifeform: ^ 32MB. and fuck, that ought to be enough for a bitcoin node

00:01:26 mircea_popescu: it ought.

00:01:30 asciilifeform: chinese mips.

00:02:38 asciilifeform: http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/04/28/15-asiarf-awm002-awm003-wi-fi-modules-run-openwrt-expose-gpios << similar, but more mass-produced

00:02:39 assbot: $15 AsiaRF AWM002 & AWM003 Wi-Fi Modules Run OpenWRT, Expose GPIOs ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnPrLq )

00:03:10 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron: my 0.7.2 node took 2 or 3 weeks to full sync << no he's right, it's what it used to be.

00:03:13 *: asciilifeform not thrilled with the wireless thing, but it seems to be inescapable in small embedded crapatrons

00:03:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what happens if you short the antenna of a wifi device ?

00:03:47 mircea_popescu: fixed ?

00:04:10 asciilifeform: you don't actually have to open & mutilate, just don't include it in kernel

00:04:52 asciilifeform: node is not a reactor, if thing sits on bus and listens for doomsday signal from enemy, it'll do what?

00:04:53 mircea_popescu: no, no

00:05:04 mircea_popescu: if it has any magic packet business, it'll come wiereless.

00:05:12 asciilifeform: then pull the internal antenna

00:05:30 mircea_popescu: short all the things!

00:05:52 BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform not thrilled with the wireless thing, but it seems to be inescapable in small embedded crapatrons << There's probably a role somewhere for a kind of node with it. Plugged in at "Free Wifi" coffee shop or library. connects to open network, changes MAC address when booted from network. Has script to handled shrink wrap license pages when encountered.

00:05:55 asciilifeform: how it will behave shorted will depend on whether designer bothered with safety

00:06:05 asciilifeform: experiment.

00:07:18 asciilifeform: wireless cards could in principle be used for forming local meshes, etc. but this is for other folks to study

00:07:38 asciilifeform: and ideally you'd want one that doesn't dma

00:07:47 mircea_popescu: writing a proper wifi thing for the new world is not on this year's plate.

00:07:50 asciilifeform: aha.

00:08:02 mircea_popescu: great tech, in principle.

00:08:41 asciilifeform: except the obvious pill is to forget the 802.11 crap and use straight sdr

00:09:11 asciilifeform: ignoring 'spectrum property' and spread/hopping far and wide, as modern mil. radios do.

00:11:42 mircea_popescu: yup

00:11:57 mircea_popescu: exactly that. a pointed disdain of any rule and regulation not gpg signed as so much crud.

00:13:18 mircea_popescu: !up HlySht

00:17:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39243 @ 0.00040527 = 15.904 BTC [+]

00:17:58 the_scourge: asciilifeform: that vocore was just crowdfunded recently. i think they fullfilled initial orders sometime in the past year. i didn't know they were mips!!

00:18:38 asciilifeform: RT5350.

00:20:20 the_scourge: uh that's a wireless chip? i thought we're talking about cpu. i.e. mips

00:21:31 asciilifeform: https://wikidevi.com/wiki/Ralink_RT5350

00:21:33 assbot: Ralink RT5350 - WikiDevi ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnSR0J )

00:21:42 asciilifeform: it's one of those all-in-one soc things.

00:21:53 the_scourge: >wireless cards could in principle be used for forming local meshes, etc. but this is for other folks to study < as long as cryptography is secure, then it's not urgent. but very interesting

00:22:46 the_scourge: asciilifeform++ thanks, very interesting bit of kit

00:23:14 asciilifeform: the_scourge: wai, wat?! if secure crypto were unknown, it then would be more urgent?

00:25:50 the_scourge: um if we had no way to secure comms on the wild internet, where layers 1-4 can be listened to by demotists (i wouldn't mind if it was a monarch),

00:25:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 151800 @ 0.00040542 = 61.5428 BTC [+] {3}

00:26:07 the_scourge: then the only alternative would be meshes

00:26:12 asciilifeform: the_scourge: but wireless links between streets would then be secure ?

00:26:28 the_scourge: and WoT to eject untrustworthy nodes

00:26:39 the_scourge: if it's los, yes

00:26:49 the_scourge: my guns are all los too

00:26:55 asciilifeform: secure los exists only in vacuum

00:27:06 the_scourge: :) funny how that works

00:27:11 asciilifeform: and not in the vacuum of space, either - there are loose H2 atoms bouncing there

00:27:13 asciilifeform: might reflect.

00:27:21 the_scourge: meh

00:28:11 mircea_popescu: i wonder if one could kickstart an experimental vehicle for space vacuum filtration to extract gold and other rare metals.

00:28:29 the_scourge: thats and acceptable threat model considering there are HUMANS involved that can fuck up and give away the keys to te kingdom

00:28:35 asciilifeform: from low orbit usg junk ?

00:28:43 mircea_popescu: just talk around the math involved, hire the people out of work once gavin gets forgotten about.

00:28:52 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, from cranial junk

00:29:00 asciilifeform: l0l

00:29:08 asciilifeform: from cranial junk - can extract anything at all.

00:29:16 asciilifeform: even unobtainium.

00:32:39 the_scourge: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=69 < this summarizes nicely every smoke break rant i had at the junior devs onsite today

00:32:41 assbot: Loper OS » Where Lisp Fails: at Turning People into Fungible Cogs. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnUThj )

00:33:05 mircea_popescu: on site of what ?

00:33:25 *: the_scourge has been desperately trying to avoid learning scheme/Qi for years, fearing never being able to hold a 'productive' contract again

00:33:32 the_scourge: mircea_popescu: client site

00:33:42 the_scourge: the one that got ddos'd

00:33:47 mircea_popescu: client provides its own devs ?

00:33:56 the_scourge: there are hundreds

00:34:46 the_scourge: the team working for me has maybe a dozen and then a massive team in manila that another contractor manages. it's ... depressing

00:35:38 the_scourge: asciilifeform: you know that mark tarver guy you linked to, are you familiar with his Qi and Chen languages?

00:35:43 asciilifeform: yes.

00:35:47 asciilifeform: wasn't impressed.

00:35:55 the_scourge: if Qi is anything like nix, i would love it forever

00:36:21 the_scourge: anywhere i can go to get some honest opinions on his work then?

00:36:24 asciilifeform: iirc tarver eventually gave up and went off to hell knows where.

00:36:40 asciilifeform: the_scourge: there was, at least in the past, a 'google groups' thing for it.

00:36:44 the_scourge: :( he's just on a downer!

00:36:45 asciilifeform: may still be there.

00:36:55 the_scourge: no, i want critics, not fanboys

00:37:08 the_scourge: did you do a writeup? i've grepped for such to no avail :(

00:37:12 asciilifeform: did not.

00:37:23 asciilifeform: did not find it interesting enough to bother with a writeup.

00:37:49 *: asciilifeform not a fan of 'pattern matching' languages a la prolog where the operator has no possible way of having the faintest clue what an operation will cost

00:38:54 the_scourge: right but that's only tru of Qi, not Shen

00:39:21 asciilifeform: shen had pattern-matching.

00:39:25 *: the_scourge wonders if a 'pattern matching' language could even be a functional language

00:39:32 asciilifeform: and even a built-in prolog!

00:40:18 asciilifeform: just about everything pushed as 'pure functional' (haskell, standard ml, etc.) to a large extent operate via pattern matching

00:40:40 the_scourge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_(programming_language) < "an integrated fully functional Prolog" hrm you're right about the latter

00:40:42 assbot: Shen (programming language) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnWkfM )

00:40:45 asciilifeform: don't take my word for this, look at how they are implemented

00:41:20 *: the_scourge learned nix over christmas and thought about learning haskell

00:41:30 the_scourge: i'll have to look at the haskell implementation

00:41:49 danielpbarron: here's a rough draft of pogo instructions: http://danielpbarron.com/pogo-howto.txt / criticisms welcomed!

00:41:50 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnWB2c )

00:41:50 the_scourge: although a few things came up when i started looking into it that turned me off haskell

00:42:17 asciilifeform: the tell-tale symptom of a programming language that does far too much behind the scenes is when its users seldom, if ever, study the implementation

00:43:03 asciilifeform: writing a (demented but functional) c compiler and (very old-fashioned, to the point of braindamage) lisp interp. used to be standard homework assignments

00:43:08 the_scourge: is perl a pretty good example of what you mean?

00:43:13 asciilifeform: one such

00:44:03 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: this gives you a rather heavyweight linux - with systemd, even.

00:44:21 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: eventual goal, i dare say, is a fully-automated reflasher that drops in something sane.

00:44:29 danielpbarron: yeh i'd like to use something other than arch but that's what i've figured out for now

00:44:35 the_scourge: asciilifeform: would https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_in_Small_Pieces be a good place to start with such excercises?

00:44:37 assbot: Lisp in Small Pieces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnX3xo )

00:44:37 asciilifeform: 'buildroot' is the ticket

00:44:46 asciilifeform: the_scourge: christian quinniec's book?

00:44:50 danielpbarron: yeah the instructions at this point are only for advanced users :/

00:44:59 the_scourge: asciilifeform: yes

00:45:07 asciilifeform: heavy but very enlightening work.

00:45:19 danielpbarron: oh man is it!

00:45:25 danielpbarron: <3 gentoo

00:45:36 the_scourge: danielpbarron: nixos has a pretty good balance of minimal and predictable (even for noobs), have you considered that?

00:45:40 danielpbarron: i get the feeling they intentionally leave things out of their guides to force the user to figure it out

00:46:09 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> danielpbarron: eventual goal, i dare say, is a fully-automated reflasher that drops in something sane. << quite

00:46:18 asciilifeform: the_scourge: 'NixOS 14.12 ?Caterpillar? has been released, the third stable release branch. It brings Linux 3.14, systemd 217, Glibc 2.20, KDE 4.14.1, and much more.'

00:46:21 asciilifeform: the_scourge: trololol!

00:46:25 mircea_popescu: in any case purge that systemd atrocity , as a matter of principle if not necessarily practicality.

00:46:52 asciilifeform: danielpbarron has probably noticed that pieces of 'systemd' crash every few hrs. on that box

00:47:08 danielpbarron: i've noticed that it needs constant supervision, yes

00:47:22 mircea_popescu: it's only to make use of the "much faster boot"

00:47:45 the_scourge: asciilifeform: if you're implying it's not lightweight, only systemd and the kernel are installed off the bat. and some guys have done work on a systemdless setup

00:47:49 asciilifeform: at any rate, it pretty much has to be a 'buildroot' script in the end. so as everything ends up in a ro-mountable flash image.

00:47:57 mircea_popescu: how is poettering to sell a shitty re-implementation of yarvin's pile of crap ? PROCLAIM LOUDLY THAT IT BOOTS FASTLY.

00:48:05 asciilifeform: the_scourge: we are discussing an embedded system with 128m each of ram and eeprom.

00:48:08 mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that a) not really and b) a machine's not really supposed to boot anyway

00:48:09 danielpbarron: i don't care how fast it boot since it shouldn't have to do that more than once (depending on the stability of your electric)

00:48:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what was the curtis yarvin brand of systemd called ? i forget ?

00:48:56 mircea_popescu: quux ?

00:49:24 asciilifeform: mr mold did not, last i heard, ever publish anything analogous to systemd

00:49:28 mircea_popescu: urbit

00:49:33 mircea_popescu: o ya ? what's urbit ?

00:49:54 asciilifeform: had a perverse functional-programming master's thesis disguised as an open source project, yes

00:50:04 asciilifeform: urbit.

00:50:18 the_scourge: urbit is yarvin's thing

00:50:18 mircea_popescu: https://www.popehat.com/2013/12/06/nock-hoon-etc-for-non-vulcans-why-urbit-matters/ << lulzy vintage.

00:50:18 asciilifeform: (for n00bz: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390 )

00:50:20 assbot: Loper OS » Of Decaying Urbits. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnXY0T )

00:50:38 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform indulge me : tries to take over everything ? check. crashes all the time ? check. two matches, good enough.

00:50:43 *: asciilifeform followed project for a while before it was publicly advertised

00:51:12 mircea_popescu: this is even skipping the "ambitious nobody proponent with a history of failure up to that point"

00:51:14 asciilifeform: it actually has a closer resemblance to the perverse programming languages discussed earlier in this thread, than to systemd

00:51:29 mircea_popescu: i would imagine alsa is uncontroversially a massive failure on poettering's scoreboard.

00:51:49 asciilifeform: alsa almost works.

00:52:28 mircea_popescu: exactly my point.

00:52:29 the_scourge: he did the other one

00:52:36 mircea_popescu: stuff that almost works for its lifetime is worse than no stuff.

00:52:48 the_scourge: alsa was what he tried to replace

00:53:38 mircea_popescu: iirc there existed an alsa as a kernel module

00:53:47 mircea_popescu: but then pulseaudio swallowed it.

00:53:58 mircea_popescu: i guess it'd be sort of dress-rehearsal for systemd

00:54:16 asciilifeform: iirc there are not yet poetteringisms in the mainline kernel.

00:54:45 mircea_popescu: "Even in 2014, you cannot use PulseAudio for competetive gaming on Linux. Not that it matters anyway. Even Valve abandoned Linux."

00:55:02 mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is a major point. the death of the linux is not exactly unrelated toi the major disappointment of the money makers.

00:55:18 mircea_popescu: people tried to get games going on the platform, 2007-8ish to about 2012. it failed.

00:56:05 asciilifeform: not entirely unconnected with the gpu vendors' behaviour.

00:56:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46969 @ 0.00039543 = 18.573 BTC [-]

00:56:34 mircea_popescu: not entirely, no.

00:56:53 mircea_popescu: also not entirely unconnected with open source peace and love nitwits who far from knowing which necks to squeeze,

00:57:01 mircea_popescu: don't even realise squeezing necks is what gets things done.

00:57:40 mircea_popescu: but anyway, yes, it seems the alsa | pulseaudio difference was in fact bitterly preserved. one of those underground wars people like me tend to embarass themselves by not noticing.

00:58:10 BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2015/02/turbotax-stops-filing-state-tax-returns-due-to-massive-fraud/

00:58:11 assbot: TurboTax Stops Filing State Tax Returns Due To Massive Fraud | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnZ2lA )

00:58:22 mircea_popescu: o.O

00:59:02 kakobrekla: prolly nobody cares but i just checked for fun whats the pogo cost in europe; its 55 dorra.

00:59:25 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yeah they run out of stock, not looking like they want to replenish it either.

00:59:25 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i distinctly recall seeing this figure here earlier

00:59:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 17300 @ 0.00093104 = 16.107 BTC [-] {39}

00:59:37 kakobrekla: ah ok

00:59:48 kakobrekla: must have missed it

00:59:54 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i've been looking into alternatives

01:00:20 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: thus far, found nothing remotely approaching the bang/buck ratio of pogo

01:00:35 asciilifeform: further suggesting that the latter was a 'loss leader' all along

01:00:51 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "breech" => breach

01:01:01 kakobrekla: only true bezzle can provide

01:01:15 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Ah, that again.

01:01:20 BingoBoingo: fxd

01:02:05 mircea_popescu: dude i really like this qntra thing. about 1/3 of what i hated about the obsolete press were mistakes. being able to go hey x, Y! makes me all fucking warm and fuzzy inside.

01:02:47 BingoBoingo: lol

01:02:51 kakobrekla: well personalized news is personalized, doh

01:03:14 *: BingoBoingo just pines for the day breech will be the correct version more often on qntra.

01:03:17 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-BK002009.jpg?size=67&uid=a019bd8c-0800-4484-9de2-d5a9a6551b15 << breech

01:03:18 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xDD3js )

01:03:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22313 @ 0.00040554 = 9.0488 BTC [+]

01:03:46 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: That's a nice one

01:04:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171057 @ 0.00040832 = 69.846 BTC [+] {4}

01:05:12 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: turbotax article << see also last night's thread re: identity fraud in usa.

01:05:32 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It's what inspired taking the piece this direction

01:06:14 BingoBoingo: On day the phenomenon is in the logs getting discussed, the next it's the angle used to disect a fraud in the news.

01:06:50 asciilifeform: aha

01:06:52 mircea_popescu: win-win as they say.

01:07:27 BingoBoingo: Reading informs writing. Scholarship 101

01:07:55 the_scourge: asciilifeform: where would you recommend someone starting with lispy languages?

01:08:06 BingoBoingo: brb, going on a bender this weekend.

01:08:51 asciilifeform: the_scourge: depends on your objective

01:09:56 the_scourge: first is to be able to continue (at least for a while) doing my consulting without shooting myself from boredome

01:09:58 cazalla: ;;later tell bingoboingo fixed 2 spelling mistakes last paragraph

01:09:58 gribble: The operation succeeded.

01:11:25 the_scourge: that mark tarver article really resonated with me. that pretty much described me to a T.. and still does. it's actually why i ended up doing non-STEM degrees: there is no lack of boredom when you're lost in a library

01:11:40 the_scourge: second, i'm REALLY REALLY interested in lisp machines

01:12:28 the_scourge: so, something minimal i guess? scheme is used for embedded stuff i've seen. guile is interesting just 'cause the gnu nix clone uses it

01:12:29 asciilifeform: -which- lisp machine ?

01:12:54 the_scourge: personally i'm interested in one that hasn't been made yet

01:13:58 mircea_popescu: ... you want to code for a machine that doesn't exist ?!

01:14:15 asciilifeform: the_scourge: get peter kogge's book, then

01:14:22 asciilifeform: the_scourge: none of the others will be of much help.

01:15:51 the_scourge: asciilifeform: thanks. historically all i know about is really the AI lab stuff. i went through a phase where i read the jargon book and some more 'original' sources about the AI labs. but this was almost 20 years ago

01:18:13 the_scourge: asciilifeform: Architecture of Symbolic Computers < this is the one?

01:20:08 asciilifeform: it.

01:20:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 163941 @ 0.00041127 = 67.424 BTC [+] {2}

01:29:41 *: asciilifeform lived in free-standing bldg since may, and only now thought to put it to proper use: plug in subwoofer & setting to max.

01:33:52 the_scourge: same thing here. i love playing the piano as loud as possible :D

01:34:26 the_scourge: other than 2 houses across the road, there are no neighbors for over 6 miles in all directions

01:35:09 *: the_scourge is thinking perhaps he could slowly transition his consulting to clojure development and keep his existing clients

01:36:25 trinque: glorious clojure

01:36:36 *: asciilifeform not a fan

01:36:58 trinque: asciilifeform: too much "magic under hood" as you said?

01:37:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54212 @ 0.00041243 = 22.3587 BTC [+] {2}

01:37:30 asciilifeform: trinque: if you actually care, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 and http://www.loper-os.org/?p=374

01:37:32 assbot: Loper OS » Thumbs Down for Clojure ... ( http://bit.ly/1Do48hD )

01:37:34 assbot: Loper OS » Of Weighty Matters, or Thumbs Still Down for Clojure. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Do46pS )

01:37:48 asciilifeform: trinque: the former was, until recently (and possibly now) among the top 'google' hits for the subject.

01:38:01 trinque: "I find Clojure revolting.

01:38:02 trinque: "

01:38:05 trinque: dis gon be gud

01:38:43 asciilifeform: if reading the comments, skip straight to http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=2#comment-3383

01:38:45 assbot: Loper OS » Thumbs Down for Clojure ... ( http://bit.ly/1Do4lkZ )

01:39:36 asciilifeform: short version: 'clojure' is to, say, 'common lisp', as 'ripple' is to bitcoin.

01:39:54 asciilifeform: a bauble pushed by unrepentantly lying chumpatronicists.

01:40:10 asciilifeform: it was actually my first exposure to that kind of thing.

01:40:34 trinque: read both, you're right

01:40:40 asciilifeform: you know, the folks who walk in with a turd and explain to you that it's 'just the same' as a sausage, but 'more up with the times'

01:40:44 trinque: what I end up using has a lot to do with "what can I fart a website out in"

01:40:49 trinque: at least in daily work

01:41:07 trinque: I've considered trying just sbcl on one side and parenscript on the other

01:41:16 trinque: but yeah, sausage... turd...

01:41:30 asciilifeform: parenscript is just a lib for any ordinary cl

01:42:29 asciilifeform: this whole 'www' thing never made sense to me. if you can open a socket, you can crap out html

01:43:14 asciilifeform: so it alone can't possibly justify the use of turdlangs.

01:43:28 trinque: just depends on how one earns daily bread

01:43:51 asciilifeform: why does the socket have to be opened using $turdlang ?

01:44:19 the_scourge: asciilifeform: did you ever use a genera machine?

01:44:23 trinque: what I'd like is a situation where I'm writing the same language in both a browser and on the server

01:44:33 asciilifeform: the_scourge: certainly.

01:44:37 asciilifeform: !s symbolics 3620

01:44:38 assbot: 9 results for 'symbolics 3620' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=symbolics+3620

01:44:41 asciilifeform: !s opengenera

01:44:41 assbot: 7 results for 'opengenera' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=opengenera

01:44:44 trinque: I've seen clojure/clojurescript, cl/parenscript, haskell/fey (and a few others)

01:45:00 asciilifeform: trinque: this leads to using $retardlang on server end

01:45:13 trinque: sure, hail satan and pass the node

01:45:15 *: the_scourge goes to find out what is opengenera and where has it been hiding

01:45:26 asciilifeform: the_scourge: it's been hiding in northern virginia.

01:45:35 trinque: my career started during web 2.0 :p

01:45:40 asciilifeform: and a small piece in cambridge, ma

01:45:59 asciilifeform: the_scourge: don't be fooled by the word 'open'

01:46:32 trinque: asciilifeform: does cl fall under $retardlang too?

01:46:41 trinque: ye gods, no firm ground to stand upon

01:46:51 asciilifeform: trinque: how do you propose to have the browser end run cl?

01:47:05 trinque: doesn't the parenscript compiler eat cl and poop js?

01:47:31 asciilifeform: trinque: so you're actually using js. you will notice this, because the cl subset that can be thus eaten/shat is microscopic

01:47:38 trinque: ah

01:47:50 trinque: asciilifeform: same situation as reaching out to Java in clojure then

01:48:08 asciilifeform: the_scourge: the 'open' in 'opengenera' is an archaic 1980s usg-ism. it simply refers to the fact that a product features industry-standard protocols like tcp/ip and does not require you to buy the entire universe you live in from one particular vendor.

01:48:13 *: the_scourge is back, dissapointed

01:48:37 the_scourge: so it's just genera 2.0?

01:48:38 asciilifeform: has nothing whatsoever to do with source being publicly available, or the product being distributed free of charge

01:49:09 asciilifeform: technically symbolics had no name for their os until opengenera was put on the market.

01:49:12 *: the_scourge did find this: https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera while he was gone. seems worth of bookmarking for later

01:49:14 assbot: ynniv/opengenera · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzmA77 )

01:49:37 the_scourge: oh, i thought it was just called genera

01:49:53 asciilifeform: the_scourge: that's merely a script for setting up the unofficial amd64 binary to run under a modern linux.

01:50:09 asciilifeform: the binary is a w4r3z blob, and occasionally distributed with the pirated source.

01:50:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70158 @ 0.00041298 = 28.9739 BTC [+]

01:50:34 *: trinque has very little idea where to start in terms of choosing a sane programming environment with which to make bezzlars

01:50:34 asciilifeform: the source - not for the amd64 blob.

01:50:42 asciilifeform: but for the original os

01:50:54 asciilifeform: there is no public source for opengenera (either for dec alpha or amd64)

01:51:03 asciilifeform: nor is it included with a purchase.

01:51:06 the_scourge: what do they charge for a copy

01:51:15 asciilifeform: when i bought - $5k usd.

01:51:20 asciilifeform: call, ask.

01:51:43 the_scourge: just when i was starting to think esr and rms didn't have a point. maybe they did

01:51:54 asciilifeform: the source for the dec/amd64 emulator is not sold.

01:52:02 the_scourge: exactly

01:52:24 asciilifeform: the_scourge: in the days of rms, symbolics corp. sold machines. the cheapest started at about the cost of a single-propeller airplane.

01:52:37 asciilifeform: 5k in modern american money is pocket change in comparison.

01:52:57 the_scourge: actually i take it back, the problems here were probably not market-based, but more cultural (and lack of appropriate customers)

01:53:42 the_scourge: asciilifeform: i'm not saying it's exorbant - just expressing dissapointment

01:54:00 *: trinque grows to suspect that there is not a programming environment asciilifeform likes

01:54:31 the_scourge: trinque: he like vimscript. a lot! :)

01:54:35 trinque: lol

01:54:43 asciilifeform: wat

01:54:57 *: asciilifeform has never seen 'vimscript'

01:55:03 trinque: tis butt

01:56:01 trinque: little imperative scripty guy, nothing special

01:56:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 177500 @ 0.00041335 = 73.3696 BTC [+] {4}

01:56:46 trinque: I'd put more money on asciilifeform being an emacs guy, but not because he likes emacs

01:56:54 asciilifeform: no need to guess

01:57:02 asciilifeform: it's all in the logs.

01:57:36 the_scourge: asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=69 < broken link

01:57:38 assbot: Loper OS » Where Lisp Fails: at Turning People into Fungible Cogs. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kznq3N )

01:57:44 the_scourge: this works: https://web.archive.org/web/20080223010634/http://www.eng.uwaterloo.ca/~ejones/writing/systemsresearch.html

01:57:55 asciilifeform: the_scourge: loads fine.

01:58:05 asciilifeform: aha pike's

01:58:08 the_scourge: no, the link to .. yah

01:59:13 asciilifeform: when i explain to folks why i dislike programming on available systems, i sometimes use example that it is rather like being a fellow who likes gardening, but there was a thermonuclear war not long ago, and you gotta sift the soil with sapper's spade in one hand, geiger in the other, and there won't be much sunlight to be had either.

01:59:52 kakobrekla: !b 1

01:59:52 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3MXCMW1.txt )

02:00:31 trinque: http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=from%3Aasciilifeform+emacs << some lols in here

02:00:32 assbot: 36 results for 'from:asciilifeform emacs' - #bitcoin-assets search

02:00:58 trinque: I recently mapped my f keys to load projects in emacs and appropriate window layouts in stumpwm

02:01:00 trinque: rules.

02:01:46 the_scourge: asciilifeform: can i get a blow by blow on what historical event was this allegorical thermonuclear war?

02:01:54 asciilifeform: the_scourge: no.

02:02:13 asciilifeform: it would be either a crock of shit, or book-length

02:02:13 trinque: the_scourge: he already blogged it all

02:02:21 the_scourge: "I estimate that 90-95% of the work in Plan 9 was directly or indirectly to honor externally imposed standards." < wow that is really sad... and ... is there a solution?

02:02:59 asciilifeform: the_scourge: yes, there is.

02:03:01 asciilifeform: !s year zero

02:03:03 assbot: 28 results for 'year zero' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=year+zero

02:06:03 the_scourge: needs quotes :) looking now

02:08:09 the_scourge: soviet open hardware? wut really?

02:09:05 the_scourge: !s gossip

02:09:06 assbot: 49 results for 'gossip' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gossip

02:09:13 asciilifeform: 'more things in heaven and earth... than are dreamt of in your philosophy.'

02:09:59 the_scourge: and that search needs a d at the end ^ (for anyone following along at home)

02:10:50 the_scourge: asciilifeform: i don't know what 'things' are, and i don't know what philosophy means

02:11:02 the_scourge: *'philosophy'

02:11:48 asciilifeform: if you recognize neither the words, nor where they apply here, i'm powerless to help.

02:11:57 the_scourge: is gossipd this psycd-like symetrically encrypted UDP IM protocol?

02:12:40 asciilifeform: 'year zero' simply refers to a reset, where you forget that a given field even has a history (except as an encyclopaedia of what not to do.)

02:13:10 the_scourge: but then doesn't it ruin the excercise?

02:13:50 the_scourge: intuition is destroyed. creativity ruined. because we're tyring so hard to not do what we are misconceited as what went wrong?

02:14:43 the_scourge: speaking of greenfield, what was the reason for greenfielding a re-implementation of psycd? (assuming gossipd has already been written)

02:14:44 asciilifeform: what exercise.

02:15:17 asciilifeform: the_scourge: because the similarity is superficial.

02:16:53 asciilifeform: psycd is a cancerous monstrosity.

02:17:32 the_scourge: well it depends on which implementation you're speaking of

02:17:38 asciilifeform: any and all.

02:17:46 the_scourge: there are a dozen i think. 2 of them named psycd

02:18:13 asciilifeform: the name normally refers to the ancient thing based on 'gnunet'.

02:18:19 the_scourge: you sound confident. what if i told you there was a psyc daemon implemented in 15 lines of common lisp? :)

02:18:27 asciilifeform: post.

02:18:53 asciilifeform: the 15 lines also contain rsa?

02:19:00 asciilifeform: the socket handler?

02:19:18 asciilifeform: the_scourge: bullshit is not welcome in #b-a.

02:20:06 the_scourge: no, sorry i wasn't bullshitting. i'm just trying to point out implementation vs architecture

02:20:39 the_scourge: 'Emacs actually comes with a builting Emacs Aptitude Test. Do you remap your keyboard or the Emacs keybindings before the chords and sequences it comes with by default have wreaked havoc with your hands? If you do not do anything to make Emacs more convenient for yourself, you may not have the prerequisite aptitude to use it productive.' (naggum, who else. http://www.xach.com/na < funny, that's one of the reason i've avoided

02:20:40 assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzpEAa )

02:21:36 the_scourge: i assumed it was poor design and useless academics who'd never had to do a hard day's work in their lives. perhaps it is a shit test?

02:22:09 asciilifeform: the_scourge: poor design for folks used to ibm's (yes, originally their) traditional key chords.

02:22:54 asciilifeform: yes, it is possible to bolt them onto emacs. but few people do.

02:23:44 trinque: evil mode + leader bindings

02:23:46 trinque: that's the stuff

02:23:51 the_scourge: well i'm paying myself paternity leave coming up soon so i'll learn emacs. haven't had a chance for a bit of time in a while

02:23:53 asciilifeform: most folks who lack the mental flexibility to relearn five or six key commands, would not benefit from emacs, and (if they are aware of its existence at all) - know it. and avoid.

02:23:57 trinque: space as leader has done wonders for my hands

02:24:31 the_scourge: trinque: thanks i'll try that

02:24:46 trinque: <esc> <space> f -> C-x C-f

02:24:51 trinque: I also have esc as right alt

02:25:00 trinque: easily thumb-pressed on this keyboard

02:25:24 the_scourge: asciilifeform: i get remapping caps and ctrl, but it still means you're having to combine keystrokes which is always painful to watch

02:25:34 trinque: chords really suck

02:25:45 asciilifeform: painful to watch << such as... ?

02:26:12 the_scourge: as opposed to combinations which are clearly natural. they are idiomatic so the brain groks them more, and the fingers do them easier

02:26:40 the_scourge: any time you are holding down one key and pressing another is painful. even the shift is an example of this

02:26:51 the_scourge: i've noticed you don't capitalize a lot of the time

02:26:52 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#816658

02:26:52 assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 22:56:02; asciilifeform: 'the only 'intuitive' interface is the tit - everything after that is learned.'

02:26:53 the_scourge: no one does

02:26:55 the_scourge: ever.

02:27:00 the_scourge: because, it's painful

02:27:12 asciilifeform: no.

02:27:14 asciilifeform: because slow.

02:27:31 the_scourge: you type all the letters in your words

02:28:02 the_scourge: never seen you say 'cause or 'c u later'

02:28:05 trinque: leader bindings are as fast as you type

02:28:06 the_scourge: er, whatever

02:28:11 trinque: and faster than chords because no stretch to the modifier

02:28:42 the_scourge: trinque: yes, i agree

02:28:43 asciilifeform: if you have healthy hands, decent input devices, it is possible to do such surprising things as speaking in complete words.

02:29:00 the_scourge: asciilifeform: which proves my point

02:29:18 asciilifeform: what was the point?

02:29:20 the_scourge: complete words = idioms. leaders. sequences.

02:29:28 the_scourge: they are not painful

02:29:41 asciilifeform: that chords are intrinsically unhealthy somehow?

02:30:25 the_scourge: well i've seen a lot of gnarled old hands. all of them told me it was chording that did it

02:30:36 asciilifeform: see naggum's observation.

02:31:09 the_scourge: yes, these were people who had always had it remapped

02:31:17 asciilifeform: ipso facto poorly.

02:31:26 trinque: meh bindings are pretty personal

02:31:29 trinque: who cares if it works

02:31:35 asciilifeform: or rather, this is not unlike the observation that everybody at the cemetary is there 'because' they breathed air.

02:31:40 asciilifeform: yes, technically - they are.

02:32:45 the_scourge: bindings are a really personal thing. i just hope that i can learn emacs and manage to use leaders for everything, that's all :)

02:32:59 trinque: nubbins' next book will be one of asciilifeform's koans

02:36:27 the_scourge: i need to head off... this weekend i'm going to look into the parallella. i'm curious if a symbolics machine could be implemented in it's FPGA

02:38:37 trinque: the_scourge: cya

02:38:39 asciilifeform: !rate the_scourge -2 dear usg, please send better clowns; the cheap ones are growing tiresome.

02:38:39 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/079b56c48360dc3d

02:39:07 asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.the_scourge.-2:872c8508e60de91180b0972e6d07b54ecd8a3362dca96a9a958e64487de13a3f

02:39:07 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for the_scourge from 1 to -2 with note: dear usg, please send better clowns; the cheap ones are growing tiresome.

02:39:42 asciilifeform: ^ and the_scourge, don't bother pm-ing. killfiled.

02:39:43 *: danielpbarron had a similar feeling

02:40:36 asciilifeform: i hope they send him off to wherever they demoted ninjashogun to.

02:40:40 trinque: asciilifeform: think he's reading logs and fishing?

02:40:42 asciilifeform: !down the_scourge

02:41:00 asciilifeform: trinque: i suppose anyone here who hasn't killfiled, will learn the answer.

02:41:06 asciilifeform: i - can't be bothered.

02:41:24 mircea_popescu: well, job's a job. back in whatever on a new one.

02:41:55 asciilifeform: their 'watercooler' conversations must be golden.

02:43:21 asciilifeform: the last straw was the bugger 'shannonizing' my www. i wonder if there's some 'person' that this genuinely works on.

02:43:40 asciilifeform: 'omg1111!!111 i am so interested in xxxxxxxx tell me moar'

02:44:05 asciilifeform: note to future stooges, moles: take some actual care to be distinguishable from comment spam on our www sites

02:44:44 *: mircea_popescu idly wonders what'd a world look like where gavinesque insanities actually made sense. "have everyone's coffee purchases validated by everyone and preserved forever".

02:44:44 asciilifeform: interesting idiots are sometimes (temporarily) tolerated. tedious idiots - never.

02:45:01 mircea_popescu: yottabytes all over, but perhaps something like nock (in principle, not what was proposed) ?

02:45:09 trinque: I try to only ask a few stupid questions a day :P

02:45:22 asciilifeform: even the nock stack posited local caching for trivialities

02:45:29 asciilifeform: rather than a global record of every 1+1.

02:45:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but imagine data storage literally was not an issue.

02:45:57 asciilifeform: o(n) addition was also 'not an issue'

02:45:57 mircea_popescu: and global record of 1+1 was trivial. perhaps on a machine much akin to physical reality : the result of mixing milk and water is stored for everyone to see - they need but look

02:46:06 mircea_popescu: there's of course a finite number of photons that saw it, but w/e man.

02:46:16 asciilifeform: global record in the sense of every instance

02:46:18 mircea_popescu: interesting how qm actually clips the graph there huh.

02:46:28 asciilifeform: !s hashlife

02:46:30 assbot: 4 results for 'hashlife' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=hashlife

02:46:37 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform technically speaking, the milk and water mixing IS recorded in ever yinstance.

02:47:00 asciilifeform: ^ compression of spacetime via 'memoization'. this is more or less how one would implement toy universes.

02:47:35 mircea_popescu: trinque i think the concern is to be approached on two lines, empirically. line 1) what % of queries constitute powerplays and b) what % of queries result in interesting education that a noob reading logs would benefit from.

02:47:44 asciilifeform: there was even an old sf story which posited that various microscopic physical limit phenomena result from the emulator shaving cycles in this manner.

02:47:52 mircea_popescu: as 1 goes up and 2 goes down there's at some critical point after which a man is taking his voice in his hands.

02:48:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly. in this sense, the ultimate engine/life form would be one that lives somehow off the shaving.

02:48:48 asciilifeform: like the bank thief who pockets rounding errors.

02:48:51 trinque: mircea_popescu: hard to get taught anything if you're fighting the teacher

02:49:01 trinque: well, taught what you're after

02:49:09 asciilifeform: (incidentally, american banks learned from the 'salami' case and now do it SOP.)

02:49:15 mircea_popescu: ayup

02:49:29 trinque: if I ever make it out of the gravity well I'd love to get an actual education.

02:50:24 mircea_popescu: actually i'm kinda half curious how many us based conf attendants discover at the border that the newly expanded tsa doth not agree their passport holds any value.

02:50:44 *: asciilifeform was actually rather surprised to be let out last time

02:51:15 trinque: my grandfather still gets hassled at the border for "american party" involvement back in the day

02:51:43 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron "You can throw out the packaging and manual; we won't be needing those." << gotta love the justifiable pride the most serene republic's flag elates out of people.

02:52:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24452 @ 0.0004145 = 10.1354 BTC [+]

02:55:15 danielpbarron: i should add more stuff like that so it isn't all command line copy paste

02:56:24 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: your 'pogo' booted from external devices without replacing uboot ?

02:56:28 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: mine - did not

02:59:02 danielpbarron: i followed the instructions on the archlinux page for pogo and it worked

02:59:17 danielpbarron: 'uboot' does not ring a bell

02:59:42 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: when thing powers up, it boots from the eeprom

03:00:03 asciilifeform: there is a boot partition there, containing an ancient version of 'uboot'

03:00:16 asciilifeform: (a kind of programmable bootloader, similar to 'lilo')

03:01:00 asciilifeform: the unit i have, had to be reflashed with a modern build of this, to boot from anywhere other than the kernel and root partitions in eeprom

03:01:26 danielpbarron: hm, mine was so easy to do i felt weird re-writing instructions for it

03:01:27 asciilifeform: ^ which can be rewritten easily

03:02:34 danielpbarron: i used brand new unused hard drives.. is it possible that has anything to do with it?

03:03:09 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: nope

03:03:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but uboot is resident on the drive ?

03:03:22 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: you installed arch to the drive and booted to it, didntcha

03:03:29 mircea_popescu: oh

03:03:31 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: uboot is resident in the 128mb eeprom

03:03:33 asciilifeform: on pogo

03:03:42 asciilifeform: followed by a partition holding kernel

03:03:48 asciilifeform: followed by a similarly sized empty one

03:03:50 mircea_popescu: yeh he booted the drive. did you danielpbarron ?

03:03:50 asciilifeform: followed by root

03:04:11 asciilifeform: the root fs is a 'ubifs'

03:04:31 asciilifeform: (yet another fs optimized for fragile 'flash')

03:05:08 asciilifeform: dev: size erasesize name

03:05:08 asciilifeform: mtd0: 00200000 00020000 "u-boot"

03:05:08 asciilifeform: mtd1: 00300000 00020000 "uImage"

03:05:08 asciilifeform: mtd2: 00300000 00020000 "uImage2"

03:05:08 asciilifeform: mtd3: 00800000 00020000 "failsafe"

03:05:10 asciilifeform: mtd4: 07000000 00020000 "root"

03:05:14 asciilifeform: ^ layout

03:05:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: trinque: how do you propose to have the browser end run cl? << haha this i wanna see. clonqueror.

03:05:29 trinque: :( lol

03:05:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cl rewrite of emacs, 'climacs', was almost usable

03:05:45 trinque: I-I just want to swim in a lake not filled with shit!

03:05:50 danielpbarron: the arch install occured on the pogo, if that's what you mean

03:05:54 trinque: but everything around me is a superfund site

03:05:59 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: yes, but it was able to boot from it after.

03:06:09 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: so possibly you got a slightly more recent fw than i

03:06:24 mircea_popescu: any way to check fw vers ? other than popping unit ?

03:06:28 danielpbarron: yeah it rebooted with no extra work needed

03:06:49 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when the thing warms up, it dumps uboot ver. to the serial console

03:07:00 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron can oyu check an report ?

03:07:13 asciilifeform: other than that, one can take a snapshot: dd if=/dev/mtd0 of=turd.bin

03:07:22 asciilifeform: and throw in favourite hexeditor

03:07:25 danielpbarron: one of the steps in the arch install might have done something to the built in flash; i'm not sure to be honest

03:07:32 danielpbarron: it had me download a script and run it

03:07:37 asciilifeform: wai wat!?!!

03:07:40 *: asciilifeform did no such thing

03:07:52 asciilifeform: so you did reflash. with hell knows what. lol

03:08:46 asciilifeform: dollars to doughnuts, danielpbarron had a normal pogo

03:09:14 mircea_popescu: what is the arch install and how did it end up imported in here ?

03:09:33 danielpbarron: when i searched the log for pogo, i found that linked

03:09:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there was a public set of instructions for installing 'archlinux' for arm onto 'pogo'.

03:09:49 asciilifeform: i used the disk image from it

03:09:52 danielpbarron: i'm happy to experiment with alternatives

03:09:53 mircea_popescu: aha

03:10:12 asciilifeform: one ends up with a mindbogglingly-heavy ubuntu-style thing, complete with 'systemd'

03:10:13 mircea_popescu: okies, so basically he found a shortcut ?

03:10:18 asciilifeform: aha

03:10:23 danielpbarron: ya

03:10:27 asciilifeform: bash script that downloads and flashes in somebody's uboot

03:10:30 mircea_popescu: a shortcut through the mud

03:10:38 *: asciilifeform built the uboot from public sources

03:10:46 asciilifeform: using same crosscompiler as for everything else

03:10:52 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron for the sake of sanity, can you proceed closer to asciilifeform's original ?

03:10:57 danielpbarron: yes

03:11:00 mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with shortcuts in principle, but this one hurts.

03:11:03 asciilifeform: who could even imagine, an 800K bootloader!

03:11:09 asciilifeform: there's a complete shell in there

03:11:12 asciilifeform: and tcp/ip stack...

03:11:38 asciilifeform: helps in resurrecting a totally b0rk3d machine, yes

03:11:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i had some toast earlier, the toaster:~$ said :L)

03:11:51 asciilifeform: (you can pump in a fresh kernel with tftp)

03:12:48 asciilifeform: http://www.denx.de/wiki/U-Boot

03:12:50 assbot: WebHome < U-Boot < DENX ... ( http://bit.ly/1ENeXeJ )

03:12:50 asciilifeform: ^ it

03:14:08 asciilifeform: used in perhaps 90% of the embedded net junk on the planet

03:14:24 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/#comment-112033 << and the perennial question.

03:14:25 assbot: Gerald Davis is wrong. Here's why. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ENf3mx )

03:14:33 asciilifeform: imho in the final turd we nuke it

03:14:40 asciilifeform: just have the thing load a straight linux kernel

03:15:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124711 @ 0.00041574 = 51.8474 BTC [+] {2}

03:15:44 mircea_popescu: "psycd is currently being refactored into a GNUnet service to run secushare on. The former psycd code is quite interesting, but currently unmaintained. "

03:15:49 mircea_popescu: am i a bad person for lulzing at this ?

03:15:49 mod6: i just passed block 168,001

03:15:57 mircea_popescu: mod6 took the whole day ?!

03:16:00 mod6: am now on block 168,011

03:16:06 mod6: ah, na.

03:16:12 mircea_popescu: hm

03:16:14 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was an attempt at something like tor.

03:16:15 mod6: i just got a chance to work on it again here now.

03:16:21 mircea_popescu: any idea what the hook was ?

03:16:23 mod6: i upgraded openssl

03:16:29 mircea_popescu: o.O

03:16:32 mircea_popescu: from what to what ?

03:16:38 mod6: root@debian-test:~# openssl version -a

03:16:39 mod6: OpenSSL 1.0.1g 7 Apr 2014

03:16:45 mod6: from version...

03:16:45 *: asciilifeform picked a very arbitrary openssl

03:17:10 mod6: OpenSSL 0.9.8o

03:17:24 mod6: which was from the orig debian 6 iirc

03:17:43 mircea_popescu: uh that's like 2010 ?!

03:18:03 mircea_popescu: 2009 even ?

03:18:06 mod6: yeah.

03:18:43 mircea_popescu: sooooo... on account of bitcoind recompiled with new openssl, actual bitcoind compiled with actual openssl as of 2009 does not pass blocks in 2011

03:18:46 mod6: it's old. this is what was included with ben's script to configure deb6.

03:18:52 mircea_popescu: whereas if you compile itwith more 2011 ish openssl itdoes ?

03:19:07 mircea_popescu: this is pretty massive if true. mod6 do you feel like testing for this insanity specifically ?

03:19:25 *: asciilifeform did not test with anything other than the shortly post-heartbleed turdball specified in 'portatronic'

03:19:25 mod6: so far. it's really weird still though, because i wasn't having this problem before. and we've always been using an old ssl.

03:19:47 mircea_popescu: might be a bug specific to the 9.8o but then that doesn't explain how all the others worked

03:20:03 asciilifeform: actually

03:20:04 asciilifeform: idea

03:20:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am willing to bet there are over 1kbugs in this thing. all distinct.

03:20:14 asciilifeform: let's rip out openssl in the simplest way

03:20:22 asciilifeform: roll in the five or six pieces that are actually used.

03:20:33 asciilifeform: so, for example, we can see what they are.

03:20:37 asciilifeform: (with naked eye)

03:20:40 mod6: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=KgQwrzYM

03:20:41 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ENfL3p )

03:20:45 asciilifeform: and then send them to hell

03:20:48 asciilifeform: and substitute in sanity.

03:20:59 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you be specific rather than rhetoric ? i dun follow

03:21:06 asciilifeform: specifically,

03:21:08 mod6: so thats ^^^ my version of openssl on my aws instance, and i've sync'd successfully at lesat a dozen times in the last 4 months on there

03:21:17 asciilifeform: we snip out the #include <openssl/......>

03:21:24 mircea_popescu: sigs won't verify.

03:21:32 asciilifeform: that's step 1

03:21:44 mircea_popescu: oh oh oh i see

03:21:48 asciilifeform: step 2 is crypto.cpp/h

03:21:50 mircea_popescu: this is actually a worthy plan.

03:21:54 mod6: and now wedges for some crazy reason. now I'm gonna upgrade to 1.0.1g there as well (just upgraded my deb6 on vbox vm to start with) and try to pass the wedge too.

03:21:55 asciilifeform: where the missing routines are then placed.

03:22:15 mircea_popescu: course also what the wunderbar vc boys are trying to do with their NOVEL inmplemetnation

03:22:23 mircea_popescu: you recall, the one that's so well tested apud gmaxwel

03:22:28 asciilifeform: i must confess

03:22:38 asciilifeform: that i was unable to make myself read the whole thing

03:22:44 mircea_popescu: openssl ?

03:22:51 asciilifeform: gavin's 0.10

03:22:53 mircea_popescu: oh

03:22:58 mircea_popescu: nono, this is planned. lemme fish it out

03:23:00 asciilifeform: dove in once or twice to fish out the orphanage burn thing

03:23:18 asciilifeform: which had to be mutilated in six different ways to bolt onto 0.5.3

03:23:23 mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rrxq7/on_why_010s_release_notes_say_we_have_reason_to < lulzy bits.

03:23:26 assbot: On why 0.10's release notes say "we have reason to believe that libsecp256k1 is better tested and more thoroughly reviewed than the implementation in OpenSSL" : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1xEmxjb )

03:24:36 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> this is pretty massive if true. mod6 do you feel like testing for this insanity specifically ? << yes, im sure that i'll dig into this further

03:25:49 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#816658 << actually this is pretty good a point, seeing how the tit actually goes INTO the face.

03:25:49 assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 22:56:02; asciilifeform: 'the only 'intuitive' interface is the tit - everything after that is learned.'

03:26:06 mircea_popescu: a true interface.

03:28:05 trinque: !b 2

03:28:06 assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0TP2YPT.txt )

03:28:24 mircea_popescu: the one truely thing i deeply regret from 2014

03:28:33 mircea_popescu: is how that spammer guy killed qntra and then bitcoin-assets.

03:28:40 mircea_popescu: i used to like dropping in on them now and again.

03:29:00 asciilifeform: l0l

03:29:41 mircea_popescu: such is the fate of right wing movements tho, bereft of means and resources as they are.

03:29:58 mod6: <+asciilifeform> roll in the five or six pieces that are actually used. << I want to collect some more data on this issue. But I'm open to discussing this option going forward.

03:30:21 asciilifeform: mod6: simple algorithm: comment out the #includes

03:30:27 mircea_popescu: mod6 this issue is critical because it's easily the squishiest point of the whole protocol.

03:30:30 asciilifeform: mod6: and then add the routines back in until the thing builds again

03:30:39 asciilifeform: however

03:30:41 mircea_popescu: why the fuck we're importing from a different project - and THAT one in particular is anyone's guess

03:30:47 asciilifeform: you may end up pulling in much of the openssl turd in the process

03:30:51 asciilifeform: !s the spittoon

03:30:52 assbot: 9 results for 'the spittoon' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=the+spittoon

03:31:00 mircea_popescu: and a sad testament to what you get stuck with if , like satoshi, have to jackbuild a house

03:34:12 asciilifeform: is there a particular reason

03:34:15 asciilifeform: why the wallet is still in ?

03:35:03 mircea_popescu: in what ?

03:35:09 asciilifeform: therealbitcoin.

03:36:49 mircea_popescu: the reference implementation ?

03:36:54 mircea_popescu: how do you plan to use it w/o a wallet ?

03:36:56 asciilifeform: i suppose that'd be why

03:36:59 asciilifeform: hm.

03:37:27 mircea_popescu: " My standard of comparison for any technology will always be everything previously achieved by mankind, rather than what is available on the market today."

03:37:31 mircea_popescu: this much is a solid approach.

03:37:56 mod6: asciilifeform: One school of thought is to take the wallet, and place it outside of the R.I. as a seperate entity.

03:38:06 mircea_popescu: "do not tell me of what seems acceptable as an idea to pudgy people driving on the interstate towards connecticut. i do not care."

03:38:39 mircea_popescu: mod6 does that idea go as far as making bitcoin a sort of xserver ?

03:39:04 mod6: something to that effect, perhaps. yes.

03:39:33 mod6: where you can connect to 'bitcoind' with a wallet of your choosing. if that's what you mean.

03:39:34 mircea_popescu: like, the node, which is an always on demon, and then various things connecting to it : such as other nodes, on the eth card, or the user, always on the specifically delegated interface, etc ?

03:39:34 asciilifeform: idea that was spoken of was a hopper to throw signed tx in.

03:40:02 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-10-2014#890284

03:40:02 assbot: Logged on 23-10-2014 05:07:32; mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> connected with serial cable << this from reading up on old mpex material ?

03:40:03 asciilifeform: ^ thread

03:40:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but more generally speaking.

03:40:21 mod6: right, then there was that whole discussion.

03:44:43 mod6: So, yeah, there are a number of topics that we look forward to discussing with you about future of the R.I. We'll get there. :]

03:45:07 *: mod6 does a data round-up & updates openssl on AWS instance

03:45:12 mircea_popescu: poor mod6 sounds exactly like buridan's ass :D

03:45:20 asciilifeform: back to the boojum - do i misunderstand or did the thing unwedge when moved to 'modern' openssl ?

03:45:41 danielpbarron: oh btw, the pogo running with swap space hasn't crashed yet, currently at 87k

03:46:07 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron was it 2gb space ?

03:46:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems to be the report.

03:46:17 danielpbarron: yeah, slightly under after formatting

03:46:29 mod6: <+asciilifeform> back to the boojum - do i misunderstand or did the thing unwedge when moved to 'modern' openssl ? << yup, that's what unwedged it. move from openssl v0.9.8o -> openssl 1.0.1g

03:46:57 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: blocks?

03:47:00 danielpbarron: yeah

03:47:51 mod6: mircea_popescu: haha.

03:48:12 mod6: yeah, some well thought out decisions to be made for sure. :)

03:48:18 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: as in how many ?

03:48:28 mod6: im looking forward to that discussion, as well as the BDB removal discussion

03:48:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the "Have you ever actually used a speech recognition system to enter serious lengths of text? " line in your comments : i agree talking to a comp

03:48:37 mircea_popescu: hm, actually, woul you prefer i comment there ?

03:48:39 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, 88100

03:48:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: either works

03:49:16 mircea_popescu: so i agree that talking to computers is loathsome. however, i often use note takers when speaking rather than writing myslelf. the latter explains the former.

03:49:56 mircea_popescu: the great utility of the scribe / secretary, rather than the tits, is that natural languages have piles and layers of redundancy built in. a good note taker is a cheap way to gain 50 to 100% speed and a decent 10 to 25% quality for very little cost.

03:50:16 mircea_popescu: BUT if the computer you are talking to is equally redundant and badly built, you are either an idiot or very very unfortunate.

03:50:36 asciilifeform: computer, as we have it, does not even know how to 'say that again plz'

03:50:45 asciilifeform: but merrily craps out garbage

03:50:49 mircea_popescu: a secretary that does that generally gets fired.

03:50:54 mircea_popescu: but! she can fix asonances!@

03:51:10 mircea_popescu: if any good, she can go "you don't actually say that"

03:51:15 mircea_popescu: as in, "i've never heard it before"

03:51:17 mircea_popescu: etc.

03:51:44 asciilifeform: the secretary will know how to finesse the question

03:51:49 mircea_popescu: quite.

03:52:02 mircea_popescu: it's a job, and it earns its pay fairly.

03:52:15 mircea_popescu: but the reason itdoes is specifically - that recipient is not computer.

03:52:36 asciilifeform: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3088289335876823@naggum.no.html << obligatory naggum

03:52:37 assbot: Re: Why a lisp OS? Re: Help required on Limitations of Lisp - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1zY7kRF )

03:52:46 asciilifeform: ^ nothing to do with lisp, but with secretaries

03:54:40 mircea_popescu: also obligatory, wilde. "i will leave it to you to fix the ifs and thens and wherefores"

03:55:00 mircea_popescu: actually where's that great fry monologue.

03:55:42 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY

03:55:43 assbot: Stephen Fry Kinetic Typography - Language - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1zY7HLM )

03:58:23 mircea_popescu: (to dampen that : fry likes wilde more because wilde was a fag than because wilde was good. which he wasn't THAT good. but nevertheless, THIS point is sound in this context)

03:58:51 asciilifeform: so far it sounds like what orwell would've farted out in a paragraph

03:59:18 asciilifeform: but turned into a whole dance

04:00:19 mircea_popescu: very politically like minded, yes.

04:00:45 mircea_popescu: which of course in a different time would beg the snide question if orwell were ever married.

04:00:54 asciilifeform: was, interestingly

04:00:59 mircea_popescu: (note that this does not mean the same as "was ever married" in the slightest, which is the point)

04:01:20 asciilifeform: iirc at least 2x

04:01:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 242700 @ 0.00040201 = 97.5678 BTC [-] {3}

04:02:33 mircea_popescu: i thought he was a womanizer

04:03:31 asciilifeform: iirc was, but it didn't leave any interesting material for archaeologists

04:03:44 asciilifeform: or if did, i'm unaware.

04:09:28 mircea_popescu: lol this naggum thing. jesus christ he's impossible to talk to.

04:09:58 mircea_popescu: at which point does the use of "seperate" in the original text suggest to him that he's dealing with a simple man with simple problems and he'd better stick to simpler solutions ?

04:10:41 mircea_popescu: there's two kinds of socialist minds in this world, the sort that expect all people to be equally stupid, and the sort that expect all people to be equally smart.

04:11:00 mircea_popescu: neither is good news.

04:13:14 asciilifeform: what was the 'simple man with simple programs' doing in comp.lang.lisp ?

04:13:26 mircea_popescu: looking for a nut.

04:13:27 asciilifeform: mistook address ?

04:13:28 asciilifeform: lol

04:13:37 mircea_popescu: "according to a report in the Economist earlier this year, the cost of producing any piece of business communication dropped along with advances in computers from 1950 through 1980. from 1985 through 1995, it rose sharply enough to consume all earnings made since 1950. it is significantly more expensive to produce a business letter in 1997 than it was in 1950. despite many technological advances with a very high pri

04:13:37 mircea_popescu: ce tag, a secretary does not produce any more measurable output now than in 1950 -- in fact, the evidence suggests that obtaining _half_ the productivity of a 1950's secretary in 1997 is a major feat. the fact that managers write their own reports at down to 1/10th of the speed of a secretary that used to be paid 1/10th of their salary also means that the time spent producing a letter or a report can cost as much as 1

04:13:38 mircea_popescu: 00 times more than it did in 1950, when managers scribbled unreadable notes and very quick and efficient typists corrected their spelling, grammer, and language and adhered to "company style" effortlessly."

04:13:46 mircea_popescu: now that... that is EXACTLY what i had in mind earlier.

04:13:52 asciilifeform: a sparrow caught in a microwave horn

04:13:55 asciilifeform: also mistook address

04:14:23 asciilifeform: speaking of which

04:14:27 asciilifeform: student puzzle

04:14:40 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform laugh if you will, but if pressed to come up with a definition of humanity, at least as an ideal object, the most sound i can think up is, "that collection of objects which construct relations which degrade gracefully"

04:14:53 asciilifeform: give a physical explanation, in one sentence, of why a trumpet/tube/microwave horn needs the 'bell'.

04:14:54 mircea_popescu: so... sparrow cooked, sure. simple man should be safe.

04:15:31 asciilifeform: naggum saw comp.lang.lisp as something more like a machine shop than a public square

04:15:38 mircea_popescu: even so.

04:15:42 asciilifeform: 'must be =this= tall to ride'

04:15:56 mircea_popescu: note that the guy wasn't actually making code changes

04:16:05 mircea_popescu: i guess perhaps he was in some definition

04:17:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform which part's the bell ?

04:17:33 asciilifeform: the end opposite from mouth

04:17:42 asciilifeform: (wide end)

04:18:40 mircea_popescu: not all of them actually end in a resonant chamber do they ?

04:18:49 mircea_popescu: im pretty sure i saw simple funel shapes

04:18:55 asciilifeform: funnel shapes also work

04:21:39 asciilifeform: answer (rot13) - gur ubea, va obgu pnfrf, zngpurf gur vzcrqnapr bs gur genafzvggre - zbhgu be zntargeba, rvgure - jvgu gung bs serr fcnpr.

04:23:15 mircea_popescu: "in a sense, Windows is a result of the way C++ builds environments, like Unix is a result of how C does it." << and in this sense... their merging would be expected at about the time "most people" couldn't if press explain exactly what the ++ stand for.

04:24:00 mircea_popescu: ah hehe that's a good point.

04:24:18 mircea_popescu: i suppose "resonance chamber" isn't actually a good enough answer.

04:31:08 asciilifeform: http://www.setileague.org/askdr/imped.htm << solution for electromagnetic

04:31:09 assbot: Ask Dr. SETI: Characteristic Impedance of Free Space ... ( http://bit.ly/1IlN9ku )

04:31:49 asciilifeform: https://casper.berkeley.edu/astrobaki/index.php/Impedance_of_Free_Space << for folks who must have prettyprinted equations

04:31:52 assbot: Impedance of Free Space - AstroBaki ... ( http://bit.ly/1IlNp2H )

04:35:03 mod6: ok was able to pass 168,001 on my aws instance with configuration: openssl 1.0.1g + v0.5.3 + patches { 1, rm_rf_upnp, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 7 } : http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=aBLX9YVy

04:35:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IlO44n )

04:55:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 152100 @ 0.00041249 = 62.7397 BTC [+] {2}

04:57:39 asciilifeform: ;;bc,stats

04:57:42 gribble: Current Blocks: 342354 | Current Difficulty: 4.127287389469702E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 342719 | Next Difficulty In: 365 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 6 hours, 4 minutes, and 26 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 44859627562.5 | Estimated Percent Change: 8.69034

04:57:49 asciilifeform: 302465.

05:00:25 mircea_popescu: "Engineering complexity is a form of environmental pollution; perhaps even the worst form of all, because it may yet turn out to be the case that it can kill whole civilizations, not just individual people."

05:00:31 mircea_popescu: actually this is a perfectly good motto.

05:00:54 asciilifeform: wherewasthis?

05:01:24 *: asciilifeform remembers and lolz

05:01:43 mircea_popescu: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=374&cpage=1#comment-2816

05:01:45 assbot: Loper OS » Of Weighty Matters, or Thumbs Still Down for Clojure. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DOVgzJ )

05:01:47 mircea_popescu: i think you know him.

05:01:51 asciilifeform: ah.

05:02:21 asciilifeform: believe or not, that thread -still- gets comments.

05:02:44 mircea_popescu: it's a pretty good point anyway.

05:03:24 asciilifeform: it's sorta the basic point of my site in a sentence.

05:03:52 mircea_popescu: " This of course adds the complexity to Clojure. The question is ? does this acquired complexity worth it? I think it does. You gain a platform that is being poured thousands of man-hours every year into, you gain a GC that is being optimized for you, you gain the crossplatformity basically for free. You may call that opportunism but it works after all."

05:04:06 mircea_popescu: so if i fuck you, and you get pregnant, well... is it worth it ?

05:04:09 mircea_popescu: you get a baby for free

05:04:13 mircea_popescu: (tm)

05:04:29 asciilifeform: phree gipht.

05:04:44 mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that you know... you gotta spend nine months eating for free

05:04:49 mircea_popescu: for two *

05:04:53 mircea_popescu: !up auscompgeek

05:05:07 asciilifeform: see also the original 'modest proposal' by swift.

05:05:24 asciilifeform: (is it still safe to assume that english speaking folks read it?)

05:05:44 asciilifeform: or did that also quietly walk away somewhere

05:07:15 mircea_popescu: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1751759988/sicp-distilled

05:07:17 assbot: SICP Distilled by thattommyhall — Kickstarter ... ( http://bit.ly/1DOVG97 )

05:07:33 mircea_popescu: 723 backers ?12,927 pledged of ?3,500 goal 0 seconds to go

05:07:35 asciilifeform: paging herr bowdler!

05:07:48 asciilifeform: shakespeare distilled!

05:08:30 mircea_popescu: i guess it's almost done by now ? 6 months later ?

05:09:51 asciilifeform: i would have guessed that this is to be a 'cliff's notes' (american book series of ready-baked crib sheets for f-students) for sicp, but the latter is no longer (afaik) assigned in school

05:09:54 asciilifeform: so it can't be that

05:13:14 asciilifeform: it was nowhere near this figure, iirc, when comment appeared

05:13:26 mircea_popescu: could it be just 25k worth of fraud which really "isn't all that much" especially seeing how "everyone deserves a living wage" ?

05:13:38 asciilifeform: but why -that- fraud

05:14:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 202250 @ 0.00041106 = 83.1369 BTC [-] {2}

05:16:44 mircea_popescu: you ever walk behind couples wondering why she chose THAT loser ?

05:17:11 mircea_popescu: a) she didn't choose ; b) you don't actually see a "that" there.

05:17:47 asciilifeform: but still end up wondering in what circus the dwarf and giant met.

05:19:33 mircea_popescu: every one.

05:24:02 mircea_popescu: http://www.thattommyhall.com/ << blog, discontinued oct 9th

05:24:03 assbot: Everything is a Ghetto ... ( http://bit.ly/1DOWQS9 )

05:25:03 mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/thattommyhall/status/335457624713752577 << abandoned twitter detailing his idea

05:25:05 assbot: Looking for investment in my new startup "Facade". The model is simple, I take your money, do what I want for a year then you write it off

05:25:32 mircea_popescu: i guess ima write this up.

05:26:11 asciilifeform: the simplest possible chumpamatic.

05:27:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 169061 @ 0.00041227 = 69.6988 BTC [+] {2}

05:42:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117300 @ 0.00040498 = 47.5042 BTC [-]

06:00:10 mircea_popescu: !up Guest70720

06:00:19 mircea_popescu: ello brenda.

06:00:21 Guest70720: a

06:00:34 Guest70720: hi now i can spam you like crazy for 30mins

06:01:39 mircea_popescu: wd.

06:02:55 Guest70720: i'm still trying to understand how this irc thing works. I've been lurking for quite a while but mostly on the blogs and forums

06:03:58 mircea_popescu: start reading the logs. linked in the topic.

06:04:23 Guest70720: they are endless, it's like reading the blockchain...

06:05:14 mircea_popescu: i think that's exactly what they're going for :)

06:05:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64100 @ 0.00041438 = 26.5618 BTC [+] {2}

06:05:45 danielpbarron: when i was in college, i sorta made a fool of myself by giving a presentation about irc in some computer class; the presentation was supposed to be about some online business we were supposed to have come up with in a semester. In retrospect, it was exactly the right thing to present; kids growing up without awareness of irc is not helping them

06:06:01 mircea_popescu: you think ?

06:06:39 mircea_popescu: ironically, irc was a big thing when i was a teen. then pretty much forgot about it. only rediscovered it in a frustrated attempt to make sense of the ever mounting idiocy that bitcoin appeared to be.

06:06:41 mircea_popescu: it stuck.

06:06:54 danielpbarron: hah same here

06:19:44 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-02-2014#525820

06:19:44 assbot: Logged on 24-02-2014 18:09:12; mircea_popescu: "So above you see pankkake continue to smear the company ActiveMining (by calling it an investment scam, associating it with the known 'LabCoin scam', saying the CEO is facing jail and accusing me of being a scammer (!)) after Ken publicly refused to pay pankkake's blackmail money demand."

06:19:49 mircea_popescu: lol anyone remember active mining ?

06:23:04 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: heh i do. i actually made a buck on that scam.

06:23:05 mircea_popescu: http://www.dailydot.com/geek/benjanun-sriduangkaew-revealed-to-be-troll-requires-hate-winterfox/

06:23:06 assbot: Acclaimed sci-fi writer exposed as notorious Internet troll ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzMbgf )

06:23:15 mircea_popescu: aawww, troll was a ... woman ?! ethnic ?! NOT POSSIBRU

06:25:16 asciilifeform: this was big

06:25:21 asciilifeform: in its particular zoo

06:27:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12300 @ 0.00040498 = 4.9813 BTC [-]

06:29:20 mircea_popescu: myeah

06:29:40 mircea_popescu: hey anyone remembers these bits i quoted some weeks ago about this woman that did a kickstarter-like thing for her oyung adult novel

06:29:47 mircea_popescu: and ended up pulling it because "internet is mean" ?

06:39:02 asciilifeform: http://www.universalsubtitles.org/en/videos/rcQaef4yYJyn/info/moia-masterskaia << ben_vulpes, BingoBoingo, others << my attempt at subtitling a certain memorable photo brag (not mine!). to enable the subs, click CC on bottom left hand corner (not the usual bottom right on youtube.)

06:39:03 assbot: Моя мастерская with subtitles | Amara ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzNvQa )

06:39:27 asciilifeform: ^ and also sound starts muted for some reason.

06:40:45 asciilifeform: found video subbing tool, and though that there was a list of things i was once going to sub, but for some reason found in my notes only this.

06:40:52 asciilifeform: *thought

06:41:46 *: asciilifeform points out that the pictured scene is not his house. he only wishes it were.

06:47:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51350 @ 0.00040498 = 20.7957 BTC [-]

06:49:57 phillipsjk: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-02-2015#1011355 got me thinking about: https://gist.github.com/sipa/5d12c343746dad376c80

06:49:57 assbot: Logged on 07-02-2015 03:18:43; mircea_popescu: sooooo... on account of bitcoind recompiled with new openssl, actual bitcoind compiled with actual openssl as of 2009 does not pass blocks in 2011

06:49:58 assbot: Proposed DERSIG BIP ... ( http://bit.ly/1zYpjHC )

06:50:11 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 17232 @ 0.0009048 = 15.5915 BTC [-] {43}

06:51:25 mircea_popescu: signatures are a major vulnerability. mostly because nobody in fucking crypto except for us understands the actual constraints.

06:51:35 phillipsjk: A careful reading of the logs shows that mod6 was careful to use the pre-f revision of debian SSL.

06:51:54 mircea_popescu: yes.

06:51:57 asciilifeform: i pulled an openssl out of me arse

06:52:02 asciilifeform: but did warn!

06:52:50 asciilifeform: 'Until recently, OpenSSL's releases would accept various deviations from the DER standard and accept signatures as valid. When this changed in OpenSSL 1.0.0p and 1.0.1k, it made some nodes reject the chain.' - from the phoundation document linked above.

06:53:16 *: asciilifeform remembers this brouhaha, did not verify the claim personally

06:54:16 phillipsjk: "The requirement to have signatures that comply strictly with DER has been enforced as a relay policy by the reference client since v0.8.0, and very few transactions violating it are being added to the chain as of January 2015. In addition, every non-compliant signature can trivially be converted into a compliant one, so there is no loss of functionality by this requirement."

06:55:11 phillipsjk: I don't understand the complete implementation details, but how do they how to convert the signatures without messing with the merkle tree? Have a table of weird transactions?

06:55:30 phillipsjk: oops can't grammar

06:55:55 phillipsjk: .... but how do they plant to canvert the signatures without...

06:56:10 asciilifeform: http://fraudsters.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/#comment-112039 << to whoever was asking for winblows

06:56:11 assbot: Gerald Davis is wrong. Here's why. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzP54H )

06:57:00 mircea_popescu: phillipsjk non compliant signatures are non compliant in trivial ways,

06:57:03 mircea_popescu: such as space padding

06:57:05 phillipsjk: It took me 3 tries to /msg assbot (mis-typed msg)

06:57:56 phillipsjk: Is the space padding ignored when computing the merckle hash then?

06:58:48 mircea_popescu: in this sense

06:59:18 asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/ident?_i=VerifySignature

06:59:19 assbot: Satoshi identifier search: VerifySignature ... ( http://bit.ly/1zYqab8 )

07:00:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 207900 @ 0.00041561 = 86.4053 BTC [+] {6}

07:00:44 mircea_popescu: god damned i can't find this

07:04:19 asciilifeform: iirc not ignored

07:08:02 mircea_popescu: !up sypher_

07:21:57 phillipsjk: "As explained by Gavin Andersen on the forum - in order to calculate the ID hash of the Tx that is used in the Merkle Tree, one needs to SHA hash the whole Tx message as defined in the Protocol Specification wiki page twice." http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/2177/how-to-calculate-a-hash-of-a-tx (second answer links to a diagram done by the Armory developer)

07:21:58 assbot: transactions - How to calculate a hash of a Tx? - Bitcoin Stack Exchange ... ( http://bit.ly/1zYspvd )

07:25:23 phillipsjk: etotheipi: "If you want to hash a Tx for ECDSA signing/verification, that's a whole different story (although, the link above also shows how to do that, too)." link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29416.0

07:25:24 assbot: On-the-wire byte map & OP_CHECKSIG diagram (knowledge donation!) ... ( http://bit.ly/1zYsL54 )

07:26:48 phillipsjk: See, there is some gold buried in the bitcointalk forum. Sifting through all the noise is a pain sometimes though.

07:27:41 asciilifeform: knowing what we know about the folks of the tardphorum, it is worth the while of anyone who actually gives a flying fuck, to consult the source.

07:32:52 phillipsjk: The source does not have a graphical summary. You can think of it as a "map". Maps are known to be wrong on occasion.

07:33:37 asciilifeform: don't be the fellow who follows his 'gps' receiver off the derelict bridge and into the sea.

07:35:30 *: phillipsjk has never quite understood why geocaching is supposed to be exciting "because you don't know what $Gaint_Obstacle you will encounter!"

07:35:44 phillipsjk: I think GPS recievers include maps now, but still.

07:35:50 asciilifeform: not exciting at all with radio cheat.

07:36:20 asciilifeform: exciting when done the proper way

07:36:35 asciilifeform: (practice for weapons cache emplacement and retrieval.)

07:36:51 asciilifeform: consult the literature.

07:37:16 mircea_popescu: ahhh finaly.

07:37:17 phillipsjk: I was in Cadets for a while, and liked map&compass.

07:37:18 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2015#974839

07:37:18 assbot: Logged on 12-01-2015 21:22:05; mircea_popescu: "4. You don't deserve to know any of that. It's none of your business. I invited my readers to chip in on a project--or not. I did not invite you to worm your nose into every aspect of my life, hunt down pictures of my home, call me names, or tell me I was worthless, arrogant, greedy, and undeserving. But you want to rip me bare and expose how awful you're sure I am. I get it, you want me transparent

07:37:47 mircea_popescu: phillipsjk trusting summaries, especially when "graphical" is a sure path to perdition.

07:40:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 126900 @ 0.00040187 = 50.9973 BTC [-]

07:42:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 424664 @ 0.00039968 = 169.7297 BTC [-] {6}

07:45:01 mircea_popescu: o.O

07:48:54 mircea_popescu: "It's all crap. This SJW shit is the Tea Party of the left. "

07:49:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: kickstarter article: ks is straight from the encyclopaedia of chumpatronic circuits, chapter 'make use of chumps directly in the machine?s control system.' as in 'multi-level' crapolade of every variety.

07:49:06 mircea_popescu: actually... the swj shit is what the left likes to think the tea party.

07:49:09 mircea_popescu: odd how this works

07:49:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform um. this seems to me just a completely inept, disorganised kid.

07:49:53 asciilifeform: referring to ks itself

07:50:15 asciilifeform: which laughs all the way to the bank whether man or monkey sits down and pens prospectus / collects.

07:50:39 mircea_popescu: surely.

07:50:56 mircea_popescu: and no doubt once they sell to facebook / washington mutual / obama's pubic hair,

07:51:10 mircea_popescu: they'll sell for way more than the gpg "dev" got to sell out the thing she doesn't represent.

07:51:26 mircea_popescu: and defo more than the lousy one year salary gavin got for attempting (and failing) some

07:51:30 asciilifeform: all that's missing is a usg-operated altcoin to go with it

07:51:49 mircea_popescu: (which incidentally makes me curious, if you get usg advance on promise to deliver and then fail to deliver, do you hjave to repay ? or go to jail ?)

07:52:25 asciilifeform: they'd pull whatever string was attached to the muppet

07:52:27 asciilifeform: until head comes off.

07:52:47 asciilifeform: (what string? ask gerald davis or any of the rest, i've no idea)

07:53:16 asciilifeform: maybe davis will tell us what it was if he finally recovers his courage and eats his luger on camera

07:53:25 asciilifeform: perhaps will say to the camera

07:53:31 mircea_popescu: there's always a fine excuse.

07:53:44 mircea_popescu: "i'm married - gotta make sure my kids have no better anything to look up to than i did"

07:53:45 mircea_popescu: or w/e.

07:53:58 asciilifeform: i'd bet it's a solid, tangible string

07:54:11 asciilifeform: at least for most of'em

07:55:09 mircea_popescu: doubt it

07:55:11 mircea_popescu: too expensive.

07:55:17 *: phillipsjk is too tired to be useful.

07:55:22 mircea_popescu: so go to bed!

07:56:11 mircea_popescu: "I think that, like species, languages will form evolutionary trees, with dead-ends branching off all over. We can see this happening already. Cobol, for all its sometime popularity, does not seem to have any intellectual descendants. It is an evolutionary dead-end-- a Neanderthal language."

07:56:15 mircea_popescu: how the fuck can he write this.

07:58:22 asciilifeform: !up gabriel_laddel

07:58:25 mircea_popescu: "Even when there were still plenty of Neanderthals, it must have sucked to be one. The Cro-Magnons would have been constantly coming over and beating you up and stealing your food."

07:58:30 gabriel_laddel: ty

07:58:35 mircea_popescu: what cro-magnon ever beat up a neandhertal ?!

07:58:45 mircea_popescu: wtf, global warming retroeffects.

07:59:01 gabriel_laddel: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3206985430398054@naggum.net.html

07:59:02 assbot: Re: Representing code as XML: the Flare Programming Language - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/18WGOfl )

07:59:02 asciilifeform: ancient hypothesis where the former ate up the latter

07:59:17 gabriel_laddel: ^ related

07:59:46 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: have you grokked the "why" of lisp yet?

08:00:07 mircea_popescu: have i ended up like the lisp heathen or something ?

08:00:22 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: nah, I'm writing something now for other reasons, will link when finished if you've not.

08:00:24 mircea_popescu: i think it's a fine language! i just don't have anything to do in it.

08:00:42 gabriel_laddel: lolk

08:00:51 gabriel_laddel: I'll take that as "no".

08:01:04 mircea_popescu: imagine me like a guy that has no poem to write. k ? so i don't write in italian. splendid language for the best of poems, and even for talking melodicly about the tv shows.

08:01:07 *: asciilifeform 'didn't have anything to do in it' likewise for first decade or so of knowing

08:01:09 mircea_popescu: but...i ain't got much to say

08:02:43 mircea_popescu: i don't write any c, either, or c++. i've never written either java or javascript. i sometimes to a little bash, and always to dig up natural language strings in natural language dialects. or otherwise mess the mup.

08:02:48 mircea_popescu: i guess i mostly use bash to php in.

08:04:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu would probably have enjoyed snobol.

08:04:03 asciilifeform: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SnobolLanguage

08:04:05 assbot: Snobol Language ... ( http://bit.ly/1zhCqfV )

08:04:16 punkman: too much log!

08:04:18 asciilifeform: (no, not 'cobol for snob', as i once thought as a kid)

08:04:32 mircea_popescu: lol. i think we did something with it in school. dun recall so well.

08:04:56 mircea_popescu: but in any case - i'm perhaps the worst market for any language. sort-of like a grasshopper is no market for leather goods.

08:04:56 asciilifeform: i may never have sat down to play with it had the library not thrown out (yes) the only book on it therein.

08:05:27 punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-02-2015#1011347 << that's what I have, wedges

08:05:27 assbot: Logged on 07-02-2015 03:16:39; mod6: OpenSSL 1.0.1g 7 Apr 2014

08:05:36 asciilifeform: punkman: on what ?

08:05:42 asciilifeform: pogo ?

08:05:45 punkman: oh wait, mine is 1.0.1e

08:05:59 punkman: asciilifeform: debian 7, x86

08:06:01 mircea_popescu: bitcoin - error only counts if generated by the right software on the right hardware on the right data spot.

08:06:08 mircea_popescu: otherwise, absent one of 3, it's "normal"

08:06:13 mircea_popescu: such we've progressed...

08:06:14 asciilifeform: l0l

08:06:29 asciilifeform: http://worrydream.com/refs/Griswold-TheSnobolProgrammingLanguage.pdf

08:06:32 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/18WHxNA )

08:06:32 asciilifeform: ^ scan

08:06:42 asciilifeform: obligatory for all serious weirdlang aficionados.

08:06:58 asciilifeform: it's a bell labs product incidentally.

08:07:27 asciilifeform: 1968.

08:10:53 punkman: worrydream fella has some interesting stuff

08:11:13 punkman: I remember his "The Future of Programming" talk, made me sad

08:11:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78850 @ 0.00039259 = 30.9557 BTC [-]

08:12:13 mircea_popescu: sad because you thought "one day i too will be stupid and senile like graham" ?

08:12:39 asciilifeform: 'worrydream' is not graham

08:12:49 punkman: sad because he shows cool things that we threw away

08:14:03 asciilifeform: punkman: my www is largely about these particular things.

08:14:33 *: asciilifeform to bed

08:14:38 punkman: asciilifeform: yes I have perused (even before #b-a ;)

08:16:19 punkman: http://vimeo.com/71278954

08:16:20 assbot: Bret Victor - The Future of Programming on Vimeo ... ( http://bit.ly/18WIvJE )

08:18:07 mircea_popescu: oh i had the wrong talk :p

08:18:17 mircea_popescu: http://paulgraham.com/hundred.html

08:18:18 assbot: The Hundred-Year Language ... ( http://bit.ly/18WIG82 )

08:25:08 punkman: http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/cheap-smartphone-dongle-diagnoses-hiv-and-syphilis-15-minutes

08:25:09 assbot: Cheap Smartphone Dongle Diagnoses HIV And Syphilis In 15 Minutes | IFLScience ... ( http://bit.ly/18WJjOQ )

08:28:05 punkman: "Matt Green, a professor specializing in cryptography at Johns Hopkins University, said he has looked at the GnuPG source code and found it in such rough shape that he regularly assigns chunks of it to his students for review. At the end I ask how they felt about it and they all basically say: 'God, please I never want to do something like this again'"

08:28:41 punkman: "It's not maintained by enough people, given how big it is, and it contains a lot of old cruft that should be gotten rid of. When it got re-engineered from version 1 to version 2, version 2 got re-engineered in this abstract way [so] that it's hard to figure out what's going on on the back end."

08:31:56 punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-02-2015#1011365 << possible candidate https://github.com/kmackay/micro-ecc

08:31:56 assbot: Logged on 07-02-2015 03:20:14; asciilifeform: let's rip out openssl in the simplest way

08:31:58 assbot: kmackay/micro-ecc · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/18WJY2A )

08:32:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62850 @ 0.00039571 = 24.8704 BTC [+]

08:33:52 mircea_popescu: heh.

08:39:21 mircea_popescu: http://www.contravex.com/2014/10/10/guide-to-setting-up-a-remote-bitcoin-node-for-20-per-year/ << it occurs to me he had a point.

08:39:22 assbot: Guide To Setting Up A Remote Bitcoin Node For $20 Per Year | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/18WKGwP )

08:43:52 mircea_popescu: anyone remember bluemeanie ? http://blog.bluemeanie.net/

08:43:54 assbot: BlueMeanie Blog. Cryptocurrency / Cryptofinance ... ( http://bit.ly/18WLaDb )

09:13:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105500 @ 0.00040047 = 42.2496 BTC [+] {2}

10:08:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124250 @ 0.00039601 = 49.2042 BTC [-]

10:21:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25313 @ 0.00039601 = 10.0242 BTC [-]

10:41:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 242100 @ 0.00039809 = 96.3776 BTC [+] {3}

10:52:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00039601 = 7.9202 BTC [-]

11:06:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 156000 @ 0.00039198 = 61.1489 BTC [-] {5}

11:27:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68900 @ 0.00040095 = 27.6255 BTC [+] {2}

11:41:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83450 @ 0.00040138 = 33.4952 BTC [+]

12:27:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44689 @ 0.00040138 = 17.9373 BTC [+]

12:28:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 112401 @ 0.00040992 = 46.0754 BTC [+]

12:40:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 134950 @ 0.00041144 = 55.5238 BTC [+] {2}

13:06:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10899 @ 0.00041331 = 4.5047 BTC [+]

13:07:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 163701 @ 0.0004169 = 68.2469 BTC [+] {3}

13:21:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 172704 @ 0.00041777 = 72.1506 BTC [+] {4}

13:25:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 156148 @ 0.00041872 = 65.3823 BTC [+] {2}

14:48:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62700 @ 0.00041125 = 25.7854 BTC [-]

16:20:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 173600 @ 0.00041904 = 72.7453 BTC [+] {2}

16:50:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31175 @ 0.00041915 = 13.067 BTC [+]

16:51:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64567 @ 0.00041974 = 27.1014 BTC [+] {3}

17:06:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 214450 @ 0.00042114 = 90.3135 BTC [+] {2}

17:14:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 176093 @ 0.00041074 = 72.3284 BTC [-] {2}

17:18:14 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell peterl dead scoopbot ?

17:18:15 gribble: The operation succeeded.

17:30:12 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2012/the-left-trying-to-steal-yet-another-word/ heh 2012.

17:30:12 assbot: The left trying to steal yet another word pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/16SWuzH )

17:37:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82500 @ 0.00041783 = 34.471 BTC [+]

17:42:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12750 @ 0.00041783 = 5.3273 BTC [+]

17:43:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 121381 @ 0.00041783 = 50.7166 BTC [+]

17:49:53 mircea_popescu: "I have little direct evidence about the atrocities in the Spanish civil war. I know that some were committed by the Republicans, and far more (they are still continuing) by the Fascists. But what impressed me then, and has impressed me ever since, is that atrocities are believed in or disbelieved in solely on grounds of political predilection. Everyone believes in the atrocities of the enemy and disbelieves in those o

17:49:53 mircea_popescu: f his own side, without ever bothering to examine the evidence. Recently I drew up a table of atrocities during the period between 1918 and the present; there was never a year when atrocities were not occurring somewhere or other, and there was hardly a single case when the Left and the Right believed in the same stories simultaneously. And stranger yet, at any moment the situation can suddenly reverse itself and yeste

17:49:53 mircea_popescu: rday's proved-to-the-hilt atrocity story can become a ridiculous lie, merely because the political landscape has changed."

17:50:09 mircea_popescu: aww, global warming -> climate change is not a trope creator ?! WHO KNEW!!!

17:52:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 115103 @ 0.00040913 = 47.0921 BTC [-] {2}

17:56:32 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-02-2015#1007145 << for it to be worth my time at this amount, i'd want half the profit.

17:56:32 assbot: Logged on 05-02-2015 01:27:14; mircea_popescu: well, if you make a f.mpif pc and report your trades, say daily, and submit monthly sum reports, i dunno, 10 ?

17:57:05 mircea_popescu: nah, first timers get a few % of the profit, and at the end of a whole year.

17:57:31 adlai: or 100% of the profit from using my own 10btc

17:57:53 adlai: i'd make a more reasonable offer for a more attractive amount of capital

17:58:02 mircea_popescu: yes, and the oppoortunity to have the same problem in 2016.

17:58:09 mircea_popescu: you're not getting any younger you know.

17:58:18 mircea_popescu: but, apart from that, your life, live it as you think fit.

17:58:47 pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2015/02/07/venus-in-fur/

17:58:48 assbot: Venus in Fur | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1KsTg3Z )

17:59:26 pete_dushenski: ^took in a play ostensibly about domination and submission last night

18:00:10 *: adlai is one of the youngest folks around here, to his knowledge...

18:00:11 pete_dushenski: interesting idea and even some shining moments, but the script was out to post-post-modern lunch

18:00:30 mircea_popescu: Alana Hawley would be a great porn star name.

18:00:42 pete_dushenski: having been written in the last decade, though, it's no huge surprise that venus in fur was timid at best

18:01:05 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu yup

18:01:26 pete_dushenski: if only she were a little more physical

18:02:13 pete_dushenski: it was so strange to see an apparently confident woman be so physically inept

18:02:29 pete_dushenski: as if confidence didn't translate into the real world

18:02:41 pete_dushenski: but was merely something to be believed in one's own head

18:03:14 mircea_popescu: <pete_dushenski> it was so strange to see an apparently confident woman be so physically inept <<< this is quite a problem, yes.

18:03:23 pete_dushenski: maybe it was just the pussy director keeping the actors so reigned in

18:03:27 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-02-2015#1008292 << this works, low volume but still enough to profit. haven't tried paymium yet but volume there is still very low. what about buttfinex?

18:03:27 assbot: Logged on 05-02-2015 13:21:22; jurov: perhaps i can look into kraken

18:04:10 jurov: adlai you know buttfinex's history

18:04:10 mircea_popescu: i can't begin to imagine how people think actresses are to be taken seriously if it's plain obvious that should a drill sargeant manifest and yell "STRIP!" she'd start trembling like an eight year old.

18:04:11 jurov: ?

18:04:33 *: adlai isn't aware of a major exchange that with a satisfactory history

18:04:49 adlai: jurov: but which specific episode are you referring to?

18:05:08 jurov: well, not all of them are based on reusing previously published gnarly code

18:05:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 135355 @ 0.00040262 = 54.4966 BTC [-]

18:05:16 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu which is precisely what the male protagonist bemoans in the opening scene of the play

18:05:31 pete_dushenski: only to fall head over heels for a slightly more verbose version of the same thing

18:05:53 *: adlai has lost money from garbage data spewed by finex's "trading engine" during extreme load... but he's also making >⅓% daily there, which has its charms

18:05:57 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski part of your disbelief also comes from you thinking in plain terms of d/s whereas the show seems to be thought more in terms of "a coupla switches get together".

18:06:13 pete_dushenski: for those interested, venus in fur is apparently playing pretty well everywhere these days

18:07:13 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu that isn't implausible

18:07:55 pete_dushenski: this isn't my area of expertise and i'm working from my own understanding of human motivations

18:08:36 pete_dushenski: and i think my reservation lies mostly in the lack of commitment

18:08:51 pete_dushenski: the flimsiness of either role

18:09:16 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski to quote adlai above, as far as the young actors are concerned, "it'd take half the theatre to make it worth their while" :D

18:09:59 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=05-02-2015#1007135

18:09:59 assbot: Logged on 05-02-2015 01:19:42; mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> adlai: why does it have to test on actual live-fire btc anyway? << so he can make a buck ?

18:10:01 *: adlai shrugs

18:10:08 jurov: adlai you know, risk assessment.

18:10:34 jurov: and if this is going to mpif, default is not really viable

18:10:37 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu never sleeps

18:10:45 thestringpuller: i believe mircea_popescu and asciilifeform are robots

18:10:59 mircea_popescu: i just woke up yo.

18:11:09 mircea_popescu: !up Dimsler

18:11:20 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu lol i guess so

18:11:30 jurov: if it was extra asset with stipulation "if buttfinex fails, tough luck" then that's naother thing

18:11:34 pete_dushenski: the world doesn't revolve around me, i'm told

18:11:35 Dimsler: lol looks like mircea made it on reddit on the feminist board

18:11:42 mircea_popescu: i wut ?

18:11:54 adlai: this is actually why i suggested that for an mpif pc, it'd make the most sense to run the bot on s.mpoe itself

18:12:23 Dimsler: someone was quoting your womens studies article

18:12:47 mircea_popescu: link ?

18:14:06 jurov: so, let's do s.mpoe first then

18:15:14 jurov: and i can submit company papers to kraken and we'll see. but it will need really good agreement as to who is liable

18:16:34 mircea_popescu: eh, and you'll enforce a really good agreement how ?

18:25:44 *: adlai would rather not be liable for ancient sea creatures running off with your bit-gold. placing bad trades is another matter, but this is measurable with much more resolution than solvency

18:26:33 adlai: amazing how this thing just keeps running while i'm in here, almost like it's not human

18:26:33 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

18:38:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97737 @ 0.00040239 = 39.3284 BTC [-] {2}

18:46:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 126786 @ 0.00040136 = 50.8868 BTC [-] {2}

18:56:26 danielpbarron: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/womens-prison-mass-jail-break-5120591

18:56:27 assbot: Women's prison mass jail break after inmates in dominatrix gear handcuff male guards expecting 'mass orgy' - Mirror Online ... ( http://bit.ly/1xJnF5l )

18:58:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65600 @ 0.00040679 = 26.6854 BTC [+]

18:59:45 mircea_popescu: no way.

19:00:42 mircea_popescu: ahahaha this actually happened ?!

19:02:38 mircea_popescu: https://www.google.com.ar/search?hl=es-419&source=hp&q=Cuiaba+pris%C3%A3o

19:02:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ztenQ0 )

19:02:43 mircea_popescu: seems its bs.

19:04:16 danielpbarron: aw :<

19:06:19 mircea_popescu: all hits on Bruno Amorim that are relevant to this story come from telegraph.co.uk

19:06:31 mircea_popescu: not likely this'd have happened and no mention in spanish/portuguese press.

19:08:34 asciilifeform: ;;bc,stats

19:08:38 gribble: Current Blocks: 342460 | Current Difficulty: 4.127287389469702E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 342719 | Next Difficulty In: 259 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 11 hours, 55 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 45174899518.4 | Estimated Percent Change: 9.45421

19:08:44 asciilifeform: 305112.

19:09:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74400 @ 0.00040756 = 30.3225 BTC [+] {2}

19:12:21 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1700 @ 0.00092475 = 1.5721 BTC [+] {9}

19:14:20 asciilifeform: punkman: micro-ecc << very interesting. mainly in that it is actually small enough to read.

19:15:45 asciilifeform: Cheap Smartphone Dongle Diagnoses HIV And Syphilis In 15 Minutes << sham. not in that the tech doesn't work (it does) but in that it is the ordinary single-shot immunoreactive test, but for some (chumpatronic) reason someone bolted it on to a pNohe.

19:16:24 asciilifeform: likewise, device requiring drops of blood is a nonstarter from the perspective of thermonuking the contagion.

19:16:33 asciilifeform: that requires 'spit in cup, five seconds'

19:16:40 asciilifeform: (see old thread on the subject)

19:17:02 mircea_popescu: saliva syphilis testing is like from 1966

19:17:20 asciilifeform: afaik nobody gives a damn re: syphilis today.

19:17:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78597 @ 0.00041154 = 32.3458 BTC [+]

19:17:28 mircea_popescu: half the claim in article.

19:17:48 mircea_popescu: but anyway hiv is not ever going to be diagnosable in saliva.

19:18:02 mircea_popescu: might as well insist you find burglars by inspecting livestock exclusively.

19:18:25 asciilifeform: immunoreactive test at ppb concentration is not a wholly outlandish concept

19:18:38 mircea_popescu: think what ppb concentrations mean.

19:18:53 mircea_popescu: is it possible through pure chance to miss an infection because it just didn't happen to go to saliva ?

19:19:05 asciilifeform: parachute also can fail, yes.

19:19:13 mircea_popescu: not by any means to the same degree.

19:19:36 mircea_popescu: at the size of the proteins involved, there's not really THAT many billion units in a saliva sample.

19:20:18 mircea_popescu: your test will probably be in the double digit failure rate, which is laughable. i suspect it is impossible for chemodynamic reasons to make it single digit, which makes it impractical

19:20:25 mircea_popescu: which is why attempts aren't really pursued/financed.

19:20:30 asciilifeform: quite possibly.

19:20:47 mircea_popescu: at least it's my off the cuff math

19:21:15 asciilifeform: on other hand, we aren't looking for the virus.

19:21:20 asciilifeform: but for the antibodies.

19:21:32 mircea_popescu: they are still large, and not particularly saliva bound.

19:21:50 asciilifeform: so concentrations of virus in fluid for the purpose of transmission - yes, extremely low to none

19:22:20 mircea_popescu: logically, the antibodies are not often found where the virus is not often found. the human machine is still a machine, trying to be economical if possible.

19:22:37 asciilifeform: http://cvi.asm.org/content/5/4/419.full

19:22:55 asciilifeform: apparently, commercial SOP

19:22:58 *: asciilifeform is behind the times

19:24:15 mircea_popescu: "This is due, in part, to variations in the type and volume of oral sample collected, how the sample is handled prior to testing, the concentration of immunoglobulin (Ig) G present, and if testing methods have been modified to accommodate the use of oral fluids. In early studies that reported poor sensitivity, whole saliva was used and there was little consideration for the volume and condition of the sample needed and

19:24:16 mircea_popescu: the choice of screening assays employed. For this reason, investigators have developed specialized collection devices that enhance the level of antibodies, particularly IgG, in oral specimens, ensure sufficient specimen volume, and include reagents to prevent microbial growth and proteolytic breakdown of antibodies. In general, this has been accomplished by collecting oral fluids enriched in gingival crevicular fluid

19:24:16 mircea_popescu: and mucosal transudate, which possess increased levels of IgG relative to saliva"

19:24:30 mircea_popescu: a) it's not "spit in cup" and b) it still doesn't really work.

19:25:01 mircea_popescu: also, this is all positive testing. what you want is negative testing. entirely different beasts.

19:25:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.QNTR] 5257 @ 0.00021898 = 1.1512 BTC [+] {2}

19:35:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87100 @ 0.00041321 = 35.9906 BTC [+]

19:53:38 punkman: asciilifeform: punkman: micro-ecc << very interesting. mainly in that it is actually small enough to read. << speaking of small things...

19:53:49 punkman: netbsd has a pgp implementation

19:53:53 punkman: http://www.netpgp.com/

19:53:56 assbot: NetPGP - digital signatures and encryption ... ( http://bit.ly/1zJ3OXS )

19:54:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 106700 @ 0.00041362 = 44.1333 BTC [+]

19:54:10 punkman: I assume this has less baggage

19:55:52 mircea_popescu: if someone feels like reading it...

19:57:38 punkman: speaking of baggage, there is a type of gpg packet that can cause an infinite loop in version 1.4.16 and before

19:58:49 punkman: (been there since 1999)

20:02:57 danielpbarron: speaking of netbsd; that's what i'm researching as a candidate to replace archlinux for the pogo

20:05:58 asciilifeform: netpgp << appears to use openssl...

20:06:28 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-02-2015#1011857 << i'm interested in doing this, but it requires either collaboration with an mpex account holder, or the fabled coinbr api...

20:06:28 assbot: Logged on 07-02-2015 18:14:06; jurov: so, let's do s.mpoe first then

20:06:30 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: netbsd on pogo << last i checked, lacked support for internal eeprom

20:06:40 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: which is a deal-killer

20:08:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107838 @ 0.00041422 = 44.6687 BTC [+] {3}

20:09:21 mircea_popescu: adlai i think pretty much the entirety of the problem stems from your outright bizarre expectation that bitcoin will somehow suit you. the correct approach is exactly the opposite : change yourself to suit exactly.

20:09:37 mircea_popescu: it's not "a technology", specifically in that it's not made to serve man.

20:09:58 mircea_popescu: it's a discovery. it bends future behaviour.

20:10:59 adlai: don't worry, i believe the same nonsense about my discovery

20:11:22 asciilifeform: confirmed, netpgp uses openssl for the actual maths.

20:11:32 asciilifeform: into the skip, it goes.

20:11:57 asciilifeform: had to spend a grand total of two minutes reading, to learn this.

20:11:59 adlai: also i don't follow why you think that i have this expectation, or that it affects my problem(s)

20:12:03 *: adlai has more than one!

20:12:25 *: adlai wonders why so many programmers are like "Math is hard!" barbie

20:12:47 *: asciilifeform shrugs, also doesn't know

20:13:12 mircea_popescu: adlai nothing wrong with it.

20:13:39 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's because math is scary, not hard.

20:13:48 mircea_popescu: programmers are, by and large, social sciences rejects.

20:14:04 mircea_popescu: they know enough to steer away from those places where they can most easily be caught being stupid.

20:14:44 mircea_popescu: your average soviet bureaucrat would avoid committing to paper as much as 1+1=2 , if he could get away with it. and sensibly so, because... you never know.

20:14:44 asciilifeform: but from where comes the fear, when no one is looking and the maths are safely under your blanket in the cover of night ?

20:14:50 mircea_popescu: same deal with your average programmer.

20:14:56 mircea_popescu: from the fact that they MIGHT

20:15:01 asciilifeform: l0l

20:15:17 mircea_popescu: a slightly pudgy 37 yo woman in iowa is not slinking towards her car in a parking lot among crickets because she is going to get raped

20:15:20 adlai: well you can catch yourself being stupid before you "open your mouth and remove all doubt", although i guess it's harder the stupider you get

20:15:26 mircea_popescu: by any one of the 0.05 people present on the same square mile

20:15:45 mircea_popescu: adlai equally harder the smarter you get.

20:15:59 asciilifeform: it's one thing to sign a freshly-packet parachute with your blood, swearing 'i am responsible for this, whatever happens'

20:16:11 asciilifeform: another matter entirely to lazily play game 'paratrooper'

20:16:19 mircea_popescu: you don't understand how narcissism works :)

20:16:27 adlai: khaneman has a chapter on this, tl;dr is that a good "expert" is one who knows when to mistrust expert intuition

20:16:40 mircea_popescu: game much more serious, because not being the work self, it actually therefore must be... THE REAL ME

20:17:05 asciilifeform: that's kinda how i pictured the narcissism working - you play 'paratrooper' and imagine that you are in fact a ww2 hero

20:17:29 mircea_popescu: no, you imagine specifically that you aren't, and that this is specifically why it matters.

20:17:43 mircea_popescu: ANYONE Could be an actual star/paratrooper/president if they actually tried.

20:17:54 mircea_popescu: however... not trying it, is the real performance.

20:17:57 *: asciilifeform probably needs to reread tlp, because he finds this a little confusing

20:18:15 mircea_popescu: italians, as their states were disintegrating, called this spezzatura

20:18:32 mircea_popescu: a good word to look up in period italian literature.

20:19:49 mircea_popescu: sprezzatura*

20:21:57 asciilifeform: the 'work self' thing i remember, but still find it bizarre

20:29:33 adlai: mircea_popescu: i still don't follow why you say http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-02-2015#1011933

20:29:33 assbot: Logged on 07-02-2015 20:09:21; mircea_popescu: adlai i think pretty much the entirety of the problem stems from your outright bizarre expectation that bitcoin will somehow suit you. the correct approach is exactly the opposite : change yourself to suit exactly.

20:30:05 mircea_popescu: aha.

20:30:20 *: adlai doesn't have this expectation

20:31:09 mircea_popescu: how do you know this ?

20:32:25 adlai: if it's an unconscious expectation, then i'm not conscious of having it :)

20:33:47 mircea_popescu: :)

20:33:58 asciilifeform: let's imagine that holy grail, room-temperature superconductor, were discovered tonight

20:34:07 mircea_popescu: let's.

20:34:12 asciilifeform: would folks 'have the expectation that room-temp supercon will work for them' ?

20:34:24 mircea_popescu: depends.

20:34:42 asciilifeform: if anything, they may (depending on inclinations) cower in feat of the inevitable laser pistol battles

20:34:52 asciilifeform: or, alternatively, relish the notion of lasers-at-dawn

20:35:02 asciilifeform: but does this resolve to 'will work for them' ?

20:35:16 asciilifeform: *in fear

20:35:20 mircea_popescu: well, let me change this from something we don't know to something we do know.

20:35:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 113600 @ 0.00042125 = 47.854 BTC [+] {3}

20:35:43 mircea_popescu: when the airplane came about, everyone hailed it as a "great civilizing factor"

20:35:55 mircea_popescu: the generalexpectation being, that it will meld into people's lives as they are, making them more so.

20:35:58 mircea_popescu: you aware of this ?

20:35:59 asciilifeform: paging herr orwell..

20:36:25 mircea_popescu: nevertheless, by 1950 the vast majority of the utility of planes was dropping bombs on people's heads.

20:36:38 mircea_popescu: the plane CHANGED their life. it didn't come about to make 1900 a more-1800-than-1800.

20:36:43 asciilifeform: 'Some months ago, in this column, I pointed out that modern scientific inventions have tended to prevent rather than increase international communication. This brought me several angry letters from readers, but none of them were able to show that what I had said was false. They merely retorted that if we had Socialism, the aeroplane, the radio, etc. would not be perverted to wrong uses. Very true, but then we haven’t Soc

20:36:43 asciilifeform: ialism. As it is, the aeroplane is primarily a thing for dropping bombs and the radio primarily a thing for whipping up nationalism. Even before the war there was enormously less contact between the peoples of the earth than there had been thirty years earlier, and education was perverted, history rewritten and freedom of thought suppressed to an extent undreamed of in earlier ages. And there is no sign whatever of these te

20:36:43 asciilifeform: ndencies being reversed.'

20:36:50 mircea_popescu: it came about to "fuck you louise, go in the air shelter and sit there"

20:36:58 mircea_popescu: and to "fuck you charlie, read or don't read but the light stays out"

20:37:01 mircea_popescu: and so on and so forth.

20:37:12 asciilifeform: aha.

20:37:16 mircea_popescu: charlie going "i am willing to work with planes as long as either the light stays on or x or y"

20:37:17 asciilifeform: so this.

20:37:30 mircea_popescu: is well... laughable. good luck wioth that, you only have one life and when that's finished there you go.

20:37:45 asciilifeform: obligatory: http://www.paleofuture.com

20:37:46 assbot: Paleofuture - Paleofuture Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1D8w8Fz )

20:39:50 asciilifeform: and, related to above thread, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-03-2014#567692

20:39:50 assbot: Logged on 19-03-2014 17:33:21; asciilifeform: people don't seem to grasp the fact that the situation in 'shall be delivered' is as inevitable as that first street drunk who electrocuted himself in the 1870s (?)

20:40:49 mircea_popescu: quite.

20:55:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1119 @ 0.00092474 = 1.0348 BTC [-] {3}

20:56:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: perhaps the historical picture in my head is incomplete, but i just can't grasp the portrait of orwell as cockless worm.

20:57:32 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the ruling elite of his time/place showed every symptom of having 'lost the mandate of heaven', to use the chinese term of art tailor made for this

21:00:05 asciilifeform: what political tack would you imagine he'd have taken, if he had not been a lamer (as pictured in your article) ?

21:08:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97050 @ 0.00041582 = 40.3553 BTC [-]

21:13:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95600 @ 0.00041767 = 39.9293 BTC [+] {2}

21:54:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.QNTR] 12624 @ 0.00022571 = 2.8494 BTC [+]

21:56:04 ben_vulpes: <chetty> [] and you had to rent the state company ones// coming soon to us, internet public utility will make it so << pretty much here already in the states

21:56:39 danielpbarron: ben_vulpes, did you just try to connect to my node?

21:56:45 ben_vulpes: no sir

21:57:02 ben_vulpes: i'm reading logs from days past, not hacking

21:57:55 danielpbarron: heh, someone did, and it's not configured to serve blocks at the moment

22:00:09 danielpbarron: hey at those QNTR prices, I made ~5 bucks per article i wrote. not bad :D

22:00:33 danielpbarron: better than refreshing a faucet

22:05:39 ben_vulpes: great intangibles

22:12:25 ben_vulpes: * asciilifeform not a fan of 'pattern matching' languages << i worked with a database with queries in datalog recently.

22:12:30 ben_vulpes: "datomic"

22:12:37 ben_vulpes: a real joy to work with

22:14:07 ben_vulpes: ;later tell sergiohlb your cloak is getting applied *after* you join

22:14:14 ben_vulpes: ;;later tell sergiohlb your cloak is getting applied *after* you join

22:14:15 gribble: The operation succeeded.

22:16:11 trinque: how many countries have to be fighting a war for the phrase "world war" to apply?

22:16:19 *: trinque starts catching up on news

22:16:41 trinque: ben_vulpes: good afternoon!

22:16:59 *: ben_vulpes curls tighter into a hangover ball

22:17:49 trinque: lol

22:19:45 adlai: by that logic, world war iii is the 'war on drugs'

22:26:56 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] interesting idiots are sometimes (temporarily) tolerated. tedious idiots - never. << /me waves

22:27:27 adlai: [] really is getting quite tedious

22:27:54 *: adlai is a fan of dropping in a url and letting assbot do the heavy lifting

22:42:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26150 @ 0.00041039 = 10.7317 BTC [-] {2}

22:54:55 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] actually i'm kinda half curious how many us based conf attendants discover at the border that the newly expanded tsa doth not agree their passport holds any value. << me too.

22:57:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 185100 @ 0.00041726 = 77.2348 BTC [+] {2}

22:57:17 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mircea_popescu: failure of imagination ^ here. more interestingly, we could, say, go on a 'disappearing' plane. or, more comically, turned out on the return leg: 'we've never heard of you, go and starve in mexico city where you came from'

22:57:47 ben_vulpes: i've a feeling argentina'd welcome me with open arms.

22:58:15 *: asciilifeform glad for ben_vulpes's good fortune

22:58:27 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't buy the malicious usg. thing is purely reactive, and only within the logic of itself.

22:58:35 *: asciilifeform wonders what ben_vulpes is still doing in his jail

22:58:38 ben_vulpes: join "anonymous", go on watch list

22:59:12 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: shorting shartups

22:59:35 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: filling tank

23:02:30 ben_vulpes: mod6, asciilifeform: forgive my naivte, but what's the recommended approach to efficiently toggling between versions of libs for compiling cturds? in particular, ssl for bitcoind.

23:03:00 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: study the example in 'portatronic'

23:03:39 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: limiting the conversation to gcc variants, the command line lib and include flags take precedence for search paths

23:04:39 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see the vars set in build.sh; then look at the top of makefile.unix (bitcoind)

23:04:55 asciilifeform: where LIBS is set

23:05:15 asciilifeform: ditto for DEFS

23:05:49 asciilifeform: the act of toggling versions of libs breaks into these two things, headers (.h) and the libs themselves (for linker.)

23:06:37 ben_vulpes: gotcha

23:06:41 asciilifeform: if anyone is confused about this mechanism, please say. because it is quite central to the whole thing.

23:07:26 ben_vulpes: i start to understand how badly the c toolchain messes with ones head

23:07:44 ben_vulpes: there are all of these things that make sense in the context of it, but...

23:08:01 asciilifeform: in the list of miseries of c/cpp work, this is somewhere near the very bottom.

23:08:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56039 @ 0.00042148 = 23.6193 BTC [+]

23:09:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36361 @ 0.00042309 = 15.384 BTC [+]

23:10:01 ben_vulpes: right! it's totally innocuous.

23:10:23 ben_vulpes: spittoon, though

23:10:40 asciilifeform: sss-schpluurk.

23:11:09 ben_vulpes: blech.

23:12:45 asciilifeform: http://cryptome.org/2015/02/parastoo-viasat-idirect.htm << lulzies

23:12:46 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1D8JlOt )

23:13:38 thestringpuller: lolol

23:15:40 thestringpuller: really would love to watch a Comedy show inspired by the work of ALF

23:15:44 thestringpuller: we can call it AFL

23:15:46 thestringpuller: ALF*

23:16:02 thestringpuller: https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmen.hotnews.bg%2Fuploads%2Ftinymce%2F2_alf.jpg&t=549&c=1T2zcHV8YJdx_g

23:16:31 asciilifeform: ^ lol, cross of 'et' and boar ?

23:17:52 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] how do you plan to use it w/o a wallet ? << gotta move all the transaction generation logic out of the turd. implies a database replacement using something that can actually be queried, not a braindamaged k/v store.

23:19:54 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] like, the node, which is an always on demon, and then various things connecting to it : such as other nodes, on the eth card, or the user, always on the specifically delegated interface, etc ? << working towards this is the root my plaintive cries about what it means to "bitcoinate"

23:22:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105400 @ 0.00041061 = 43.2783 BTC [-]

23:24:07 thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: heard something about your city today lol

23:24:23 ben_vulpes: something indescribeably stupid, no doubt

23:24:36 thestringpuller: i guess. they said the city is a hipster factory.

23:25:08 ben_vulpes: who?

23:27:24 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-02-2015#1011593, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-02-2015#1011595 << /me raises his hand

23:27:24 assbot: Logged on 07-02-2015 06:06:39; mircea_popescu: ironically, irc was a big thing when i was a teen. then pretty much forgot about it. only rediscovered it in a frustrated attempt to make sense of the ever mounting idiocy that bitcoin appeared to be.

23:27:24 assbot: Logged on 07-02-2015 06:06:54; danielpbarron: hah same here

23:30:18 thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: buddy of mine who works at the intel plant up there.

23:30:37 thestringpuller: he was like "I've become a hipster even though I was an anti-hipster"

23:31:20 thestringpuller: so they brainwashing people out there ben_vulpes ?

23:32:36 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] http://www.universalsubtitles.org/en/videos/rcQaef4yYJyn/info/moia-masterskaia << charming

23:32:37 assbot: Моя мастерская with subtitles | Amara ... ( http://bit.ly/1D8LfPk )

23:33:03 ben_vulpes: "common household tools"

23:33:58 ben_vulpes: hah and of course a windows machine

23:34:09 ben_vulpes: these old fab hands and their msboxen

23:34:31 ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: D1X can do strange things to a man.

23:34:41 ben_vulpes: but uh normally the fab does not produce hipsters, no.

23:36:14 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the non-obvious tidbit in the film is that the man can afford those digs without being especially loaded

23:37:00 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: one could get a similar space in some parts of usa, but it would be under 24/7 orc siege and security costs for parity with the pictured workshop would dwarf the rent

23:37:27 ben_vulpes: i did notice the door was unlocked.

23:37:47 asciilifeform: not much of a door, either

23:37:49 ben_vulpes: right

23:38:48 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: define orc

23:38:56 ben_vulpes: fwiw there aren't many orcs in the rural bits of ussa, and one can shoot trespassers on sign in those provinces too

23:39:23 asciilifeform: ^ we've seen what happens to folks who actually try

23:39:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92300 @ 0.00042263 = 39.0087 BTC [+]

23:39:57 ben_vulpes: most recently, we've seen what happens to people who shoot each other in the suburbs

23:40:04 asciilifeform: perhaps if the tresspasser is white/anglo, it is overlooked.

23:40:27 thestringpuller: it's okay to shoot a nigga in the hood.

23:40:38 thestringpuller: when you shoot him in the suburbs, everyone loses their shit.

23:40:40 ben_vulpes: out in the woods, the sop (as i understand it, not having pulled this particular hat trick myself) is to fire a warning shot, shoot the invader, and then call the sherrif.

23:40:56 asciilifeform: but notice that the pictured workshop is not built into the man's home, presumably he is not present there 24/7.

23:41:18 ben_vulpes: what is different there? why no orcs or plunderers?

23:41:24 asciilifeform: when i said 'security cost', it does not necessarily refer to tanks or rockets

23:41:28 thestringpuller: !s orc

23:41:29 assbot: 50 results for 'orc' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=orc

23:41:36 ben_vulpes: actually asciilifeform i contest this stance

23:41:45 ben_vulpes: i've worked in minimally secured shops

23:41:53 ben_vulpes: with tens of thousands of dollars in hardware

23:41:58 ben_vulpes: and more in fancy woods

23:42:16 ben_vulpes: subspace in busy warehouse, not much by way of rent or opportunities for theft.

23:42:36 asciilifeform: 'nobody knows this is not a warehouse full of old shoes' is not 'minimally secured'

23:42:42 asciilifeform: it's the best security there is.

23:43:31 asciilifeform: but the workshop fella posted that to 'youtube' and was not afraid of being robbed. (however, long after, he since moved, to a larger space, iirc.)

23:44:18 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: your warehouse had heat? 3-phase current? private apartment out of sight of other tenants ?

23:44:30 asciilifeform: and a total lack of draconian conditions in lease ?

23:44:51 asciilifeform: e.g., were you free to live in and legally receive mail there, if you wished ?

23:45:09 ben_vulpes: people lived there yeah

23:45:24 ben_vulpes: and yes, there was 3-phase.

23:45:33 ben_vulpes: decent shaper requires 3-phase.

23:45:44 ben_vulpes: granted, we had to run it from the mains entry point *ourselves*

23:46:14 ben_vulpes: and the guy who ran the place had his own out-of-sight apartment that was rarely shown to other tenants

23:46:25 ben_vulpes: lease was month-to-month

23:46:56 ben_vulpes: i grow to suspect that you see all of the ussa as a homogenous enforcement environment.

23:47:07 asciilifeform: sounds very spiffy, but i notice ben_vulpes is referring to this business arrangement in the past tense

23:47:12 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: why'd you leave ?

23:47:17 ben_vulpes: which makes sense, coming from an inhabitant of the Forbidden City

23:47:40 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: career change.

23:47:55 asciilifeform: so, not so cheap that one could budget it as lunch money ?

23:48:04 ben_vulpes: the risk of losing my hands was not worth the pay.

23:48:16 asciilifeform: i mean, to keep the space for pleasure

23:48:47 ben_vulpes: for a man with income, surely.

23:48:54 ben_vulpes: a pauper like myself, though?

23:49:34 *: asciilifeform not so foolish as to think about 'homogeneous enforcement environments', knows that there are, e.g., vast deserts in usa where folks set off trucks full of dynamite for amusement, etc.

23:49:47 ben_vulpes: "drive by shooting gallery"!!

23:50:20 ben_vulpes: http://blip.tv/weird-america/weird-america-the-drive-by-shooting-gallery-446214

23:50:22 assbot: Watch Weird America :- The Drive-by Shooting Gallery -: | Weird America Episodes | Learning Videos | Blip ... ( http://bit.ly/1D8MKwW )

23:50:44 asciilifeform: it all exists, yes. and the folks who live there are almost qualified to graduate out of usa.

23:52:37 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what is it about that place that provides for space and security at such a low cost?

23:52:45 ben_vulpes: for that matter, where is it?

23:52:59 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: leningrad

23:53:07 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aka st petersburg, petrograd

23:53:17 ben_vulpes: mwell

23:53:33 asciilifeform: i don't know the author personally, no. he's just a blogger.

23:54:00 asciilifeform: and what provides for security is that he lives in (laugh, but) the civilized world

23:54:11 ben_vulpes: i'll not laugh, no.

23:54:15 ben_vulpes: not at a term i don't understand.

23:54:55 ben_vulpes: what do you mean by "civilized world"?

23:55:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: at the risk of circularity, the place where you can easily make the kind of arrangement pictured in the film.

23:55:41 asciilifeform: notice that the author had no trouble procuring modern tools

23:55:55 asciilifeform: or materials with which to work

23:56:20 ben_vulpes: is the typical american to expect those to be hard to come by in the "civilized world"?

23:57:01 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-01-2015#997076

23:57:01 assbot: Logged on 29-01-2015 06:26:04; mircea_popescu: i live in the sticks.

23:58:44 asciilifeform: i distinctly recall that machine tools are uncommonly difficult to obtain in ar, for example

23:59:08 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-06-2014#723925

23:59:08 assbot: Logged on 18-06-2014 22:22:37; benkay: the word i got was that large, tech-heavy equipment gets stalled at the border.

23:59:43 asciilifeform: (see also other threads re: same)