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Transcript for 07-07-2015, 2160 lines:

00:02:31 BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/0A0tU

00:02:32 assbot: its_bitney_bitch comments on How far behind are we due to the "stress test"? ... ( http://bit.ly/1H5m3Z9 )

00:02:55 pete_dushenski: decimation took some fiddling but i made it happen :)

00:04:59 decimation: pete_dushenski: ah that's good news

00:05:07 BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cd4nd/unless_all_major_miners_begin_mining_with_fully/

00:05:08 assbot: Unless all major miners begin mining with fully validating node software... users of the latest versions of "Bitcoin Core" are at risk of finding themselves Altcoiners : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1fiHTl5 )

00:05:08 decimation: now the question is: how bad is the routing performance

00:05:35 pete_dushenski: decimation that's still tbd on my end. perhaps asciilifeform can comment ?

00:05:47 asciilifeform: wai wut

00:05:50 asciilifeform: comment on what

00:06:12 pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo bahahhaa omfg that's sweet.

00:06:27 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform edgerouter routing performance

00:06:58 decimation: running openbsd. I thought ascii had been using netbs

00:07:05 asciilifeform: freebsd

00:07:07 decimation: ah

00:07:28 pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo "The second fork persisted from 21:50 through to 23:40 on July 5th, 2015" << should include blockheight, neh ?

00:07:45 decimation: given the proprietary kernel used by the edgerouter in its linux variant

00:07:49 pete_dushenski: decimation aha. my bsd mistake

00:07:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19488 @ 0.00052093 = 10.1519 BTC [-]

00:07:56 asciilifeform: routes at something quite like line speed;

00:08:06 asciilifeform: 100% uptime since i first plugged it in

00:08:30 asciilifeform: ditto for their radio 'ufo', which i bitched about but then got 'openwrt' running on it

00:08:32 decimation: interesting. I didn't see any updates on openbsd saying that the nfs turd was no longer needed

00:08:32 BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Haven't seen people talking blockheight. Really as fragile as the thing is atm fuckers ruined my dreams of blockheight as "canonical" measure of time

00:08:52 decimation: pete_dushenski: I assume you are still using the stock uboot which ascii suspects?

00:09:17 decimation: unfortunately blockheight is only a solid concept in retrospect

00:09:43 asciilifeform: chainph0rk never prospers, for the reason, that if it prospers, none dare call it treason (tm) (r)

00:09:43 pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo hm. ya. fair nuff.

00:10:03 decimation: asciilifeform: one could verify that one has the correct time by observing occultations

00:10:20 asciilifeform: ?

00:10:27 decimation: of the moon and other bodies http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/iotandx.htm

00:10:28 assbot: IOTA Main Table of Contents ... ( http://bit.ly/1fiJ2cy )

00:10:31 pete_dushenski: decimation stock uboot ? << me thinks so, yes.

00:10:42 asciilifeform: decimation: my pogo didn't come with a gimbal telescope; did yours ?

00:10:45 decimation: watching bodies pass in front of other bodies

00:11:14 decimation: no, but the question is: who do you trust to tell you the time?

00:11:27 asciilifeform: entirely separate problem from the one we have

00:11:45 decimation: time (for the moment) still derived from the earth's rotation around the sun (and date by its orbit)

00:11:54 decimation: err rotation about its axis I mean

00:12:01 asciilifeform: epoch time is more related to cesium time

00:12:11 asciilifeform: (which is the actual iso std)

00:12:26 decimation: sure but that's why we have leap seconds

00:12:27 *: asciilifeform is aware of the 'leap second' bullshit

00:13:06 decimation: point being, someone derives time (the iers) from astronomy, sets the cesium, and broadcasts it

00:13:16 asciilifeform: unrelated: folks competing for mircea_popescu's 1 btc prize for therealbitcoin callgraph can strike 'egypt' utility off the list. it is a worthless pile of shit, which produces worthless piles of shit (at least for cpp proggy)

00:13:50 asciilifeform: the other thing is that we DON'T NEED A DYNAMIC CALLGRAPH FOR ANYTHING !!!!

00:13:54 asciilifeform: at least ~i~ don't

00:14:16 asciilifeform: which means that 'gprof' callgraph is out

00:14:26 decimation: probably valgrind 'callgrind' too

00:14:33 asciilifeform: as is kcachegrind, openpat, amd's codeanalyst, and makeppgraph.

00:14:41 asciilifeform: leaving - afaik - NOTHING at all.

00:15:00 decimation: note that there are plenty of tools that would work for C

00:15:03 decimation: not for C++

00:15:04 asciilifeform: useless here

00:15:06 asciilifeform: aha

00:15:15 decimation: another reason why C++ sucks

00:15:29 asciilifeform: i can't use a graph which contains munged names or misses virtual functions.

00:15:44 asciilifeform: or, in the case of dynamic graphs, may omit some corner case which didn't get hit

00:16:05 asciilifeform: dynamic graphs are useful for certain kinds of work, but is more or less the opposite of what i need here.

00:16:23 decimation: the virtual functions thing probably eliminates all halfass attempts to use a C based-tool

00:16:55 asciilifeform: sure do.

00:16:59 asciilifeform: i just tried 'egypt'

00:17:01 asciilifeform: total waste of time.

00:17:05 asciilifeform: (for this reason)

00:17:12 decimation: asciilifeform: one would think the compiler writers would need such a thing

00:17:19 asciilifeform: why?

00:17:43 decimation: To verify correctness?

00:17:48 asciilifeform: i mean, yes, gcc turns cpp into an ast

00:18:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4150 @ 0.00052034 = 2.1594 BTC [-] {2}

00:18:12 asciilifeform: but this functionality is deliberately not brought out to 'libraryizable' form, for reasons discussed in earlier threads re: rms

00:18:46 decimation: what about clang? I thought stuff like this was the 'reason' it was built

00:19:02 asciilifeform: anybody got a clang build?

00:19:05 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes ?

00:19:16 asciilifeform: phf ?

00:19:55 asciilifeform: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/15458738/create-a-call-graph-for-a-file-with-clang

00:19:56 assbot: graphviz - Create a call graph for a file with clang - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1H5oriF )

00:20:46 decimation: asciilifeform: what about http://scottmcpeak.com/elkhound/sources/elsa/index.html

00:20:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H5oDhS )

00:21:07 decimation: " Interesting in that virtual inheritance is represented properly; for example in/std/3.4.5.cc yields 3.4.5.png. "

00:21:24 asciilifeform: i don't see call graph...

00:21:29 asciilifeform: only #include graph

00:21:35 asciilifeform: and inheritance graph

00:21:39 asciilifeform: neither of which is useful to me

00:22:55 asciilifeform: and before anybody asks,

00:23:15 asciilifeform: i am definitely not interested in the output of any proprietary, closed (esp. winblowz) proggy that produces c++ callgraphs

00:23:25 asciilifeform: because i won't be running it.

00:24:04 decimation: it's possible that something like this does it http://www.semanticdesigns.com/Products/DMS/DMSToolkit.html

00:24:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H5p5g0 )

00:24:07 decimation: for $$$

00:24:15 asciilifeform: decimation: please see above!

00:24:22 decimation: yeah.

00:24:25 trinque: clang looks like it might be the thing

00:24:33 decimation: but all you want is a chart

00:24:40 decimation: someone else can do the dirty work

00:24:42 asciilifeform: no

00:24:48 asciilifeform: i want a chart that i can regenerate.

00:24:51 decimation: ah.

00:24:52 asciilifeform: on demand.

00:27:09 asciilifeform: thought about using the output of 'lxr'

00:27:14 asciilifeform: but then learned that it is retarded

00:27:19 *: trinque cooks his balls recompiling llvm

00:27:26 asciilifeform: and unable to distinguish between functions of same name in different classes

00:27:30 asciilifeform: (when listing its 'who calls')

00:28:02 asciilifeform: the chart ~must~ be semantically correct. this is not negotiable

00:28:31 asciilifeform: (one which is not, is worse than useless)

00:41:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00052414 = 5.9752 BTC [+]

00:45:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40500 @ 0.00052004 = 21.0616 BTC [-] {2}

00:58:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19995 @ 0.00052414 = 10.4802 BTC [+]

01:14:14 mats: https://twitter.com/w3bd3vil/status/618168863708962816

01:17:31 trinque: mats: and so nice of google to ship that with their browser

01:17:57 mats: the exploit is interesting

01:21:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45850 @ 0.00051884 = 23.7888 BTC [-] {3}

01:28:25 asciilifeform: mats: tried it on the non-winblowz one ?

01:30:34 mats: https://twitter.com/GammaGroupPR/status/617937092497178624 someone's taking credit for FinFisher and HT

01:30:51 asciilifeform: run moar winblowz!

01:30:52 mats: nope

01:31:39 asciilifeform: in other nyooz that you will never read in english,

01:31:55 asciilifeform: http://www.fontanka.ru/2015/07/06/022 << russian member of parliament busted, had 400 kg (!) of currency

01:31:56 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1LP1i9u )

01:32:00 asciilifeform: nm, 100

01:32:35 mats: what denomination notes?

01:32:38 asciilifeform: 400 m rubles (about 7 mn in u.s.)

01:33:07 asciilifeform: !up nottooshitty

01:33:21 nottooshitty: translation?

01:34:08 trinque: ^ was going to ask next "which currency"

01:34:15 asciilifeform: the bugger was an infamous 'moralist'

01:34:45 asciilifeform: tried to suppress abortion, even (a laughable nonstarter in ru) and 'fight alcoholism', etc, etc.

01:35:11 asciilifeform: the dough was found in bank boxes, wouldn't even fit in the vault, was stored all over the place

01:35:15 mats: asciilifeform: how am i to submit keys to phuctor without an api for the keyserver? just post?

01:35:23 asciilifeform: mats: correct

01:35:25 asciilifeform: no api needed

01:35:28 asciilifeform: it takes a standard POST

01:35:39 mats: am i supposed to parse the html or something for a response?

01:35:43 mats: or just piss into the void

01:35:52 asciilifeform: there can be no useful immediate response

01:36:06 asciilifeform: thinkaboutit

01:36:41 mats: yeah i should know better

01:36:51 asciilifeform: so apparently they had to take the bank by storm.

01:36:54 trinque: 200 Eaten

01:37:12 asciilifeform: eventually opened with battering ram

01:38:33 *: funkenstein_ can't wait to buy USD by the kilogram

01:39:04 asciilifeform: http://www.fontanka.ru/2015/07/06/192 << in unrelated nyooz, ru tu-95 bombers helped to celebrate '4th of july' in alaska & california, l0l

01:39:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1dIGkLC )

01:39:41 asciilifeform: putin, is claimed, was actually on the phone with obama, congratulating, while they buzzed the coast

01:40:15 mats: lol

01:40:16 trinque: that's style

01:44:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43300 @ 0.00052788 = 22.8572 BTC [+] {4}

01:45:07 asciilifeform: https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/195.211.154.159-8333 << lulz

01:45:08 assbot: 195.211.154.159:8333 - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/1dIH57z )

01:48:02 asciilifeform: https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=/Ender:3.14.15.94 << other lulz (not mine)

01:48:03 assbot: Snapshot of reachable nodes in the Bitcoin network - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/1LP2lX5 )

01:49:07 asciilifeform: apparently we don't even ~have~ a 'useragent' string in 0.5.x

01:49:12 asciilifeform: somehow i missed this, l0l

01:49:16 asciilifeform: who wants to make one up - can!

01:49:25 nottooshitty: put time on it

01:49:53 asciilifeform: nottooshitty: read the thread. it doesn't matter where you put it - it can't be believed

01:50:48 nottooshitty: i know

01:50:58 asciilifeform: we are, apparently, the #43 '- (1)'

01:51:00 asciilifeform: in the list

01:51:17 asciilifeform: on account of being the only node on the planet that passes the idiots' 70001 filter while ~not having a useragent string~

01:52:16 asciilifeform: https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/?q=/UMD-Coinscope:0.0 << node mentioned much earlier, the one run by the umd dept. of sc4mz4tr0n1cs

01:52:17 assbot: Snapshot of reachable nodes in the Bitcoin network - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/1LP2NEA )

01:54:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33383 @ 0.00053195 = 17.7581 BTC [+] {2}

01:58:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19927 @ 0.00053341 = 10.6293 BTC [+] {2}

02:01:40 asciilifeform: https://www.btko.in << anyone ever heard of'em ?

02:01:40 assbot: BTKO.in ... ( http://bit.ly/1dIJ8IO )

02:01:57 asciilifeform: advertised in a node userid, '/btko.in:0.11.99/ (70002)'

02:02:40 nottooshitty: storm??

02:03:30 asciilifeform: idk

02:04:15 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: Really as fragile as the thing is atm fuckers ruined my dreams << twas a good dream

02:06:06 asciilifeform: waiwut

02:07:07 thestringpuller: ^- that directed at me?

02:07:13 asciilifeform: or BingoBoingo

02:07:17 asciilifeform: what was the ruined dream

02:07:37 thestringpuller: blockheight as canonical measure of time

02:07:56 asciilifeform: it was never a measure of time

02:08:20 asciilifeform: because, as mircea_popescu explained earlier, difficulty is defined in relation to wall time

02:11:20 asciilifeform: for the record, i think this design is asinine

02:11:39 asciilifeform: difficulty oughta have been defined in relation to the difficulty of the last solved block, solely.

02:12:06 asciilifeform: yes, this means that martians can land, mine the remaining blocks in five minutes, and leave earth a smoking and bitcoinless crater

02:12:15 asciilifeform: to which i say mircea_popescu's sacramental 'don't be poor'

02:12:38 asciilifeform: do it to mars before mars - to us!

02:13:23 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: you make it sound like prison rape...

02:15:11 asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty.

02:15:15 mats: any folks very familiar with postgresql in here

02:15:46 mats: id like to know how well caching is supported

02:16:11 thestringpuller: mats: you ever use memcache?

02:16:33 mats: i'm exploring the option of _not_ using additional things like redis or memcache

02:17:01 trinque: what are you caching?

02:17:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00053474 = 9.358 BTC [+] {2}

02:17:16 thestringpuller: oh well, never seena stack that's operated that way in production. would be interestig in what you come up with.

02:17:18 trinque: mats: depending on the situation, maybe a materialized view is called for

02:17:18 mats: key db

02:18:19 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: if difficulty always goes up what happens in "nuke scenario"?

02:18:24 trinque: mats: in my experience postgresql can do anything those other piles of shit can

02:18:29 trinque: and often just as fast or faster

02:18:29 asciilifeform: (in gedankenexperiment above, 'mine the remaining blocks' oughta be understood to mean 'mine all the blocks with substantial blockreward')

02:19:07 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: in that scenario, bitcoin either dies with the last remaining man, or the beloved 'hardfork'.

02:19:39 trinque: mats: what in particular is slow?

02:20:05 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: or the survivors simply sign, on parchment, with their privkeys, ..., etc

02:20:32 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: this makes next block work a non obtainable resource tho?

02:21:03 asciilifeform: the thing barely survives today, much less ww3

02:21:34 mats: trinque: spec calls for displaying stats, which would probably require caching because pgsql reads from disk otherwise

02:21:57 asciilifeform: incidentally, today i invented (hypothetical) very cheap 'clock': an sram with a beta source glued on top

02:22:03 asciilifeform: (from, say, a smoke detector)

02:22:21 asciilifeform: though one would probably prefer something with shorter halflife

02:22:21 mats: depending how large db gets i would expect io to get choked

02:22:28 trinque: mats: could write a view that generates your stats, then a materialized view which is refreshed at an interval with "refresh materialized view" or w/e it is

02:22:59 trinque: I like this approach because there's both an interface that is "fast" and also one that is accurate

02:23:33 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: it is seemingly surviving usgavination attempts.

02:25:56 mats: trinque, ok to pm?

02:26:20 trinque: sure

02:26:24 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: unless i seriously misunderstand, 50%+ of the hash rate belongs to folks ~who aren't even running bitcoin~ but a toystore version

02:29:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5500 @ 0.00053216 = 2.9269 BTC [-]

02:34:07 asciilifeform: http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/3330352/post179877748 << historical. sov. sub. close-ups of internals.

02:34:08 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJpbxH )

02:34:22 asciilifeform: 1970-1998

02:34:58 asciilifeform: interesting because traditional (diesel) motor.

02:35:01 asciilifeform: as in ww2.

02:35:40 asciilifeform: linked mainly on account of this http://russos.ru/img/trip/2009-kolskiy/b440-22.jpg mechanical computer.

02:35:42 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJphVX )

02:39:21 asciilifeform: !up Vexual

02:43:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50700 @ 0.00053423 = 27.0855 BTC [+] {2}

02:45:28 mats: http://www.pcworld.com/article/2942267/why-ubuntu-plans-to-replace-traditional-linux-packages-with-something-better.html

02:45:29 assbot: Why Ubuntu plans to replace traditional Linux packages with something better | PCWorld ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJqEnF )

02:47:36 decimation: asciilifeform: no pictures of the radio room?

02:48:44 decimation: home | log | search | deeds | bash | stats | wiki

02:48:45 decimation:

02:48:45 decimation: PREV: 04-07-2015

02:48:45 decimation:

02:48:46 decimation: 05-07-2015 show

02:48:50 decimation: [ ] hide bots [ ] links only

02:48:53 decimation:

02:48:56 asciilifeform: decimation: one of them was 'radio room'

02:48:56 decimation: NEXT: 06-07-2015

02:48:59 decimation:

02:49:03 decimation: Transcript for 05-07-2015, 1135 lines:

02:49:06 decimation:

02:49:06 asciilifeform: ^ ??

02:49:09 decimation: 00:00:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187182 << add lying schmucks to a degree not experienced since kindergarten on pirate island. the

02:49:09 assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:41:04; asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla my current understanding of the ph0rk situation is that your hypothesis re: miners being dumb as bricks is essentially correct...

02:49:10 decimation: f2pool admin's explanation is "we got the bad block from antpool, who we don't know how they got because they told us they only follow us"

02:49:14 decimation:

02:49:17 decimation: 00:00:40 assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 16:41:04; asciilifeform: ;;later tell kakobrekla my current understanding of the ph0rk situation is that your hypothesis re: miners

02:49:18 asciilifeform: decimation: !!

02:49:20 decimation: being dumb as bricks is essentially correct...

02:49:23 decimation:

02:49:23 asciilifeform: !!

02:49:26 decimation: 00:01:03 mircea_popescu: because yes, we're fucktarded enough to not notice what's proposed here is a closed f2pool - antpool loop. they're over there in their own

02:49:30 decimation: parallel universe.

02:49:33 decimation:

02:49:36 decimation: 00:01:17 mircea_popescu: i dunno when it became fashionable to be infantile, but i'm getting pretty sick of it.

02:49:39 decimation:

02:49:40 decimation: 00:02:39 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187220 << so are they :D

02:49:40 assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 17:23:18; trinque: yeah, I'm being hyperbolic

02:49:44 decimation:

02:49:47 decimation: 00:02:39 assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 17:23:18; trinque: yeah, I'm being hyperbolic

02:49:50 decimation:

02:49:53 decimation: 00:03:34 ben_vulpes: ohai punkman

02:49:56 decimation:

02:49:59 decimation: 00:05:37 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-07-2015#1185652 << i really gotta post ak47.sh to the ml

02:49:59 assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 19:49:35; shinohai: mod6: if you want another auto.sh, I'll try and help you when I understand this new build xD

02:50:02 decimation:

02:50:05 decimation: 00:05:37 assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 19:49:35; shinohai: mod6: if you want another auto.sh, I'll try and help you when I understand this new build xD

02:50:08 decimation:

02:50:10 decimation: 00:06:24 mircea_popescu: "Note that the roughly 50% of the network that was SPV mining had explicitly indicated that they would enforce the BIP66 rules. By not doing so,

02:50:12 asciilifeform: !!

02:50:14 decimation: several large miners have lost over $50,000 dollars worth of mining income so far."

02:50:17 decimation:

02:50:20 decimation: 00:06:36 mircea_popescu: leaving aside the inept spin they published, why the fuck are we pricing things in dollars.

02:50:40 BingoBoingo: Bouncer aimed in the wrond direction?

02:50:47 asciilifeform: probably pushed wrong pedal

02:52:50 decimation: alright, that's the end of my adventure with erc

02:53:31 trinque: lol, I stopped using it myself when I dumped an email to my father in another channel

02:53:47 decimation: I wasn't hitting anything other C-x b

02:54:02 decimation: decided to shit web browser logs from another buffer into chan

02:54:34 trinque: M-x do-everything-and-lock-up

02:56:42 asciilifeform: save-lisp-and-die

02:57:16 decimation: one wonders how shitty lisp machine that emacs is emulating gets into such a sad state

02:57:27 decimation: I'm sure rms would blame my non gnu extension

02:58:02 trinque: probably chafing at the emacs|other boundary

02:58:43 decimation: yeah to be fair I'm running stator on this machine, and it only has 2gb ram

02:59:12 decimation: yeah and erc runs inferior process

02:59:35 decimation: anyway I abandoned irssi because I thought it couldn't handle unicode, but apparently it was my tmux

02:59:38 decimation: шара́жка

02:59:56 trinque: I haven't been able to see non-ascii since I put the weechat instance on obsd

03:00:40 trinque: hm could be tmux in my case too

03:00:47 decimation: asciilifeform: re: ru aircraft: http://www.ibtimes.com/russia-grounds-entire-su-24-fleet-fighter-jets-after-deadly-crash-near-sea-japan-1996897

03:00:49 assbot: Russia Grounds Entire Su-24 Fleet Of Fighter Jets After Deadly Crash Near Sea Of Japan ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJshBP )

03:01:01 decimation: yeah it turns out tmux is very picky about the terminal you are using when you create it

03:01:09 decimation: plus you need to manipulate unicode options maybe

03:01:52 trinque: yeah, it seemed pissed about my rxvt-unicode-256color when ssh'ing in

03:01:58 trinque: copied over the termcap, which sort of helped

03:03:10 trinque: hm I wonder if this tmux session actually predates copying the termcap

03:06:03 trinque: and in fact, yes; it works now.

03:06:20 trinque: шара́жка

03:06:24 trinque: whatever that means

03:06:25 trinque: :D

03:07:07 trinque: !up Transisto2

03:08:02 trinque: huh... then when disconnecting and reconnecting with tmux, gone.

03:08:09 trinque: computers are hard

03:14:36 decimation: it's 'sharashka' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka

03:14:37 assbot: Sharashka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJu5uk )

03:19:06 decimation: !up bagels7

03:20:21 bagels7: good morning, hwo do you do

03:22:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34800 @ 0.00052875 = 18.4005 BTC [-]

03:24:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42100 @ 0.00051761 = 21.7914 BTC [-]

03:26:20 mats: how goes the money changing

03:27:43 bagels7: well I was into IT then I got a sign from god and went a different path, physical, mental and spiritual fitness. body/mind/spirit all well

03:29:38 asciilifeform: !b 3

03:29:39 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1VFDQZV.txt )

03:32:46 decimation: lol

03:32:49 decimation: !up Vexual

03:33:12 decimation: http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/617/jew_basic.jpg < happy money changer

03:33:13 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJwi9h )

03:34:41 decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.itworld.com/article/2944275/ad-fraud-trojan-updates-flash-player-so-that-other-malware-cant-get-in.html < lulzy trojan uses flash exploit and then helpfully updates flash after infection

03:34:45 assbot: Ad fraud Trojan updates Flash Player so that other malware can't get in | ITworld ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJwxkF )

03:34:45 Vexual: ;;ticker

03:34:46 gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 270.5, Best ask: 271.09, Bid-ask spread: 0.59000, Last trade: 270.48, 24 hour volume: 54919.01843139, 24 hour low: 267.74, 24 hour high: 278.69, 24 hour vwap: None

03:36:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32494 @ 0.00051493 = 16.7321 BTC [-]

03:38:12 mats: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/how-bitcoin-is-disrupting-argentinas-economy.html << news of your celebrity in .ar, bagels7

03:38:15 assbot: Log In ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ti4fBL )

03:38:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49250 @ 0.00054157 = 26.6723 BTC [+] {3}

03:38:40 asciilifeform: mats: i thought that was brendafdez

03:38:47 asciilifeform: ;;seen brendafdez

03:38:47 gribble: brendafdez was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 14 weeks, 5 days, 4 hours, 33 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <brendafdez> mircea_popescu it works now. Anyway the IP I'm on now is one of a public AP, it shouldnt be whitelisted. I'll later give you my home IP, and BingoBoingo has my VPS IP already. I didn't know you were filtering.

03:38:53 mats: oh mixed em up nvm

03:39:03 Vexual: lol

03:41:03 Vexual: it happens

03:42:07 decimation: mats: bagels7 is the trans 'person'

03:42:17 asciilifeform: so was brendafdez ?

03:42:23 asciilifeform: hence, i think, the confusion

03:42:26 decimation: heh

03:42:49 mats: oops

03:42:51 decimation: !up slikers

03:42:56 slikers: ok

03:43:02 mats: haro

03:43:04 decimation: slikers: are you using ipv6

03:43:14 slikers: nope

03:43:18 slikers: what is issue ?

03:43:23 Vexual: we chack and chack again

03:43:26 decimation: I thought irccloud put your ip

03:43:29 decimation: interesting

03:43:51 slikers: nope

03:43:56 decimation: what brings you here slikers

03:43:59 decimation: !up maximian

03:46:12 Vexual: ;;later tell cazala asx:ipo these kids had the melb free rent desks?

03:46:12 gribble: The operation succeeded.

03:47:22 ben_vulpes: punkman: i don't understand the point of your gpgdiddling link

03:47:49 Vexual: 3 months became a heady meatwot?

03:49:53 Vexual: \query gribz

03:50:57 Vexual: ;;later tell cazzala ^^

03:50:58 gribble: The operation succeeded.

03:51:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36532 @ 0.00051493 = 18.8114 BTC [-]

03:51:44 Vexual: ;;seen naphex

03:51:44 gribble: naphex was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 days, 10 hours, and 28 seconds ago: <Naphex> https://xotika.tv/#/channel115/LovelyTaya enjoy xD

03:52:54 Vexual: tincans

03:53:45 ben_vulpes: <ascii_field> mike_c: all the signs point to us trying to solve the utterly wrong problem. << http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1189757 << and by "diddle" i mean "use", if that wasn't clear.

03:53:45 assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:39:57; ben_vulpes: i'm beginning to suspect that booting bitcoin nodes cannot be automated in the same way that diddling one's gpg cannot be automated.

03:54:02 asciilifeform: well yes

03:54:03 ben_vulpes: punkman: i think i see now

03:54:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7850 @ 0.00051493 = 4.0422 BTC [-]

03:54:44 ben_vulpes: leastaways without a wholesale replacement of sync mechanism plus god only knows what else eventually.

03:55:04 Vexual: time is hard

03:55:18 Vexual: and soft

03:55:32 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: thread was about how bitcoin as it exists is very much designed around 'political time' being a knowable and generally agreed-on thing

03:56:38 ben_vulpes: i begin to understand.

03:56:39 decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/auth-ntp.cfm < apparently you need to sign up by post if you want to receive 'authenticated time service' from usg

03:56:41 assbot: NIST Authenticated NTP Service ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ti5JMe )

03:56:48 decimation: plus you need a static ip

03:59:32 Vexual: have you read celetitial vagigation yet?

03:59:38 decimation: hehe

03:59:44 Vexual: typo

04:00:09 decimation: http://www.occultations.org.nz/

04:00:11 assbot: Occultation Section - Royal Astronomical Society of New Zealand ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ti60yN )

04:00:36 Vexual: you'll find the reduction tables for free at .mil

04:01:14 decimation: the point about occultations is that you can get tables of when they are supposed to occur for your area. you don't need a fancy telescope, usually cheap bionoculars would suffice for observation

04:01:47 decimation: find predictions for the time they are to occur and compare with your clock under test

04:03:01 decimation: as asciilifeform pointed out this comparison would involve some time conversions

04:03:19 Vexual: indeed

04:03:36 Vexual: you'll do best to learn it with out of date info

04:03:38 asciilifeform: very much useless for our current problem, i must again point out

04:03:49 asciilifeform: pogo needs to plug into the wall and immediately fight

04:03:54 asciilifeform: !up Vexual

04:04:15 decimation: asciilifeform: true, but if one person can find time and verify for themselves, they can provide services for others

04:04:29 Vexual: i cant see a solution mut mp's

04:04:39 decimation: even hitler can't move the moon's path

04:04:47 asciilifeform: but he can diddle packets in flight

04:04:54 asciilifeform: which is good enough

04:05:00 Vexual: let the nodes confirm it

04:05:02 decimation: aye, signed ntp server would be needed

04:05:12 asciilifeform: which gets nuked

04:05:17 asciilifeform: and you're back to square one

04:05:18 decimation: or a large collection of them run by enthusiastic hobbyists

04:05:48 asciilifeform: we have this now

04:05:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53301 @ 0.00054631 = 29.1189 BTC [+] {4}

04:05:51 asciilifeform: it is worthless

04:06:05 decimation: the hobbyists rarely bother with pki ntp

04:06:20 asciilifeform: hardcoded keys suck

04:06:33 asciilifeform: it is gavinism.

04:06:57 decimation: as in, a symmetric pair for time transmission?

04:07:08 asciilifeform: as in having keys in the box at all when it ships

04:07:10 asciilifeform: of any kind

04:07:23 asciilifeform: enemy captures magic private key, game over

04:07:29 mats: asciilifeform: ever looked at safe stack in your professional adventures?

04:07:51 asciilifeform: mats: nope

04:07:53 decimation: asciilifeform: agreed, which is why you would need several different keys from different providers

04:08:11 asciilifeform: decimation: thing is, we don't have a network where you connect by key instead of by ip

04:08:49 decimation: asciilifeform: https://github.com/zrm/snow < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list

04:08:50 assbot: zrm/snow · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ClX3At )

04:08:54 asciilifeform: mats: what is interesting about it ?

04:08:59 decimation: "snow is a layer 3 virtual network that abstracts the underlying network and allows public keys to be used in place of IP addresses. "

04:09:23 asciilifeform: decimation: looks like a cheap clone of tor-onion

04:09:25 asciilifeform: snore.

04:09:50 asciilifeform: astonishingly useless no matter how implemented

04:09:52 asciilifeform: openssl or not

04:10:01 asciilifeform: because ultimately there are servers and 'magic' ips.

04:10:32 asciilifeform: just like tor dies if the directory servers are ever unplugged.

04:10:42 asciilifeform: (despite pretenses to the contrary)

04:11:00 mats: moves stack based buffers to another segment, then stores reference

04:11:12 mats: http://dslab.epfl.ch/pubs/cpi.pdf <<

04:11:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ti6SmV )

04:11:23 asciilifeform: mats: as a rule, i am entirely uninterested in 'mitigations'

04:11:28 asciilifeform: e.g., 'aslr'

04:11:33 mats: :(

04:11:47 asciilifeform: because they are expressions of surrender, of 'willing to live with' a pit of liquid shit

04:11:55 asciilifeform: the thing to do with shit is to burn it.

04:12:01 asciilifeform: until nothing remains.

04:12:04 Vexual: cost is involved

04:12:04 asciilifeform: not 'live with' it.

04:12:06 mats: some folks gotta live with it

04:12:12 mats: others wanna exploit it

04:12:25 asciilifeform: mats: even the exploiting, i find, is deadly boring

04:12:33 asciilifeform: the kind typically done by armies of coolies, 'fuzzing'

04:12:40 asciilifeform: i have no wish to be a coolie.

04:12:52 asciilifeform: or to be present anywhere at all in that supply chain.

04:14:44 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah 'snow' seems to try to maintain a dht across the peers

04:15:08 asciilifeform: decimation: for a successful example of this, see 'kademlia'

04:15:34 mats: we diverge on this point

04:15:43 decimation: how do you maintain such a dht without giving enemy a dictionary of ips to attack

04:15:49 mats: thats the primary thing driving my interest in studying windows at all

04:15:59 asciilifeform: decimation: you don't. the notion was that 'too many to hang'

04:16:10 mats: otherwise i wouldn't subject myself to it

04:16:15 asciilifeform: mats: the fungible coolie 0day isn't the only kind there is, you know

04:16:22 asciilifeform: there is also the 'sui generis'

04:17:18 asciilifeform: the kind you find by looking where literally nobody else has thought to look, perhaps even using tooling that literally no one else has.

04:17:19 Vexual: champagnes protected

04:17:52 asciilifeform: and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for.

04:18:24 asciilifeform: some smirking 'plum book' stuffed shirt who thinks that his ph.d. makes him a god

04:18:58 Vexual: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg-RIOATCbU

04:19:08 asciilifeform: and that the only opponent is 'raghead' in goatfuckistan

04:21:01 mats: well, i meant exploitation is what interests me

04:21:31 mats: i don't care about fuzzing at all, folks have much better tooling than i do, and i have no resources of any kind to aid me in that

04:21:49 asciilifeform: aha

04:21:54 asciilifeform: then have to be very particular

04:21:57 mats: computing power or particularly deep knowledge of the maths theory involved

04:23:10 mats: if the latter is even necessary, i have no idea

04:23:32 asciilifeform: doesn't hurt to know some maths

04:23:38 asciilifeform: enough to understand, e.g., 'phuctor'

04:23:51 Vexual: ^failed

04:24:11 asciilifeform: basic discretes is more important

04:24:37 asciilifeform: e.g., my current colleagues were very surprised when i told them about needleman-wunsch and how one can make a non-retarded binary 'diff'

04:24:49 asciilifeform: this was not taught to them

04:26:10 asciilifeform: other pertinent maths include the proof of why 'homomorphic obfuscator' is impossible in the general case

04:26:43 *: asciilifeform confesses that he did not know this proof, and, as a student, wasted a great deal of time trying to devise such a thing

04:27:14 asciilifeform: and then of course there is basic crypto, but i am deliberately not mentioning it

04:27:31 asciilifeform: anyone else have examples of 'maths an exploiter must know' ?

04:27:51 asciilifeform: the 'byzantine generals' paper.

04:28:36 mats: i was under the impression 'diff' implements a variation on 'needleman-wunsch'

04:28:37 asciilifeform: lamport (same as of the 'generals') clock.

04:28:45 mats: can't remember the name of the algo, though

04:28:48 asciilifeform: mats: traditional diff, afaik, did not

04:28:55 asciilifeform: more modern incarnations - hell knows

04:29:15 decimation: it would be useful to know basic algorithms and associated time estimates

04:29:30 asciilifeform: well these every civilized person knows

04:29:35 decimation: heh

04:29:53 asciilifeform: (e.g. what 'O(N)' or 'O(N^2)' means)

04:30:08 mats: lol

04:30:22 mats: week one computer science.

04:31:26 Vexual: i saw funkensteins man playin, i could smell the 03

04:33:28 mats: im off to eat an entire large papa johns pizza and re-read chapterhouse (dune)

04:33:30 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rrOdcnFbAY <rippin up the stmostphere

04:33:34 mats: have a good one

04:33:56 decimation: good night

04:36:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11930 @ 0.00054616 = 6.5157 BTC [-]

04:37:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32689 @ 0.00055396 = 18.1084 BTC [+] {2}

04:41:16 decimation: asciilifeform: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5373714/generate-calling-graph-for-c-code < might be a working candidate

04:41:17 assbot: Generate calling graph for C++ code - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1KNH27p )

04:41:44 asciilifeform: yeah linked it earlier, iirc

04:41:51 asciilifeform: possibly ben_vulpes or trinque might give it a shot

04:42:00 decimation: yeah, gonna take makefile dicking

04:42:20 *: decimation to bed

04:42:30 asciilifeform: other thing is, ideally the graph would be in some logical arrangement

04:42:34 asciilifeform: rather than just 'what fits'

04:42:50 *: asciilifeform also to bed

04:43:00 trinque: in fact I built llvm and clang earlier today

04:43:02 trinque: might take a swing at it

04:58:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59109 @ 0.0005361 = 31.6883 BTC [-] {2}

05:17:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50450 @ 0.00054922 = 27.7081 BTC [+] {4}

05:24:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17514 @ 0.000553 = 9.6852 BTC [+]

05:28:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71400 @ 0.00052548 = 37.5193 BTC [-] {4}

05:29:48 *: BingoBoingo rebuilding 0.7-ish client for lulzier version string

05:30:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18200 @ 0.00051599 = 9.391 BTC [-]

05:31:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31033 @ 0.00055342 = 17.1743 BTC [+] {2}

05:35:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53500 @ 0.00053942 = 28.859 BTC [-]

05:49:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14752 @ 0.00053942 = 7.9575 BTC [-]

06:01:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23500 @ 0.00054456 = 12.7972 BTC [+] {2}

06:39:36 cazalla: Vexual, no idea, i think they actually provide the space to others

06:40:27 cazalla: !up Vexual

06:40:42 Vexual: thats what i thought

06:41:15 Vexual: they kinda ghosted after that

06:43:43 Vexual: 3 months free commercial rent, sublet desks at the same rate, voila

06:44:36 Vexual: i havent read the prospectus

06:45:39 Vexual: u say they obtained asicminer hashes in jan tho?

06:48:51 Vexual: kakobrekla: doyou do AXJO?

06:49:52 Vexual: zt has fury and spoonies

06:50:32 cazalla: i read it last night.. they want 20 million to buy more miners with

06:50:46 Vexual: thats less than dcc

06:51:15 cazalla: i think dcc shitcanned their mining or at least onsold their capacity

06:52:28 Vexual: yes, but they did it smooth like

06:53:13 Vexual: i think maybe the spoonies in iceland is rented

06:53:49 cazalla: well that is where bitcoin group claim they mine, that and china

06:53:56 cazalla: for something like 0.5% of the hashrate

06:54:46 Vexual: i like the model

06:55:14 Vexual: dcc chpped hashfast

06:55:52 cazalla: well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out

06:55:56 Vexual: dunno when the lease is up

06:56:11 Vexual: ahhh right, i dint red

06:56:35 punkman: http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-farmer-starts-currency-backed-by-potatoes-2015-7

06:56:36 assbot: Russian farmer starts currency backed by potatoes - Business Insider ... ( http://bit.ly/1JKYmez )

06:56:41 Vexual: do they mention the office space in melb?

06:59:33 Vexual: i like the model

06:59:57 cazalla: yeah, that lee guy uses it as proof he has a solid reputation in the bitcoin community.. hai guyz i run a bitcoin meetup so pls gief me 20 mirrion dorrah

07:01:31 cazalla: Vexual, see http://i.imgur.com/vvgXA0v.png

07:01:31 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1JKYJWt )

07:02:11 Vexual: itll sell

07:02:59 cazalla: prolly

07:03:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11904 @ 0.00055426 = 6.5979 BTC [+]

07:03:58 Vexual: http://malagasyword.org/bins/teny2/kapok

07:04:51 Vexual: to have been a fly on the wall

07:06:08 Vexual: i think i mentioned the free rent

07:06:23 cazalla: capped, can't load shit

07:06:47 Vexual: mandarin?

07:08:18 cazalla: fkn internets in this country..

07:08:31 Vexual: tell me about it

07:09:08 Vexual: we should be running more pipes

07:09:24 punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?

07:09:38 cazalla: part 2 of that report on ndrangheta was on last night, did ya see that Vexual ?

07:10:51 Vexual: yes

07:11:10 punkman: !up Vexual

07:11:38 Vexual: i liked the general there of private enterprise

07:11:44 Vexual: *theme

07:13:07 Vexual: i missed the first one

07:13:21 Vexual: but the 2nd had less vanstone

07:13:32 cazalla: both of em were a bit beat up

07:14:53 Vexual: some cop got shot in the head last night in melb too

07:16:01 cazalla: so i hear, took a shot gun to the face and walked away unscatched, prob bullshit story

07:16:34 Vexual: chase cancelled

07:18:48 Vexual: smh carried the story of 2.2 milly paid to courts, no names

07:21:34 Vexual: vanstone was on tell today, she looks well ruined

07:21:40 cazalla: prob only because it was a joint 4corners/fairfax story

07:23:25 Vexual: nothing new

07:24:28 cazalla: bbl

07:25:18 Vexual: i got in on that private guam pipe, that was a winner

07:26:24 Vexual: guam?

07:26:46 Vexual: anyway, the bandwitch was already sold

07:27:41 trinque: https://security.gentoo.org/glsa/201507-04

07:27:42 assbot: Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0QJY )

07:28:05 trinque: a couple nasty ones in there https://security.gentoo.org/

07:28:06 assbot: Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0V0j )

07:28:26 punkman: are those libraries widely used?

07:29:01 punkman: (International Components for Unicode)

07:29:30 trinque: firefox on my system uses it.

07:29:41 trinque: among other things

07:32:02 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajeL87l3prM

07:34:46 Vexual: thats wildly innappropriate

07:35:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38500 @ 0.00055426 = 21.339 BTC [+]

07:38:24 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzYdPMVZsRQ

07:51:18 punkman: "professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work."

07:58:09 punkman: http://www.openculture.com/2014/10/when-modern-art-was-used-as-torture-during-the-spanish-civil-war.html

07:58:10 assbot: Modern Art Was Used As a Torture Technique in Prison Cells During the Spanish Civil War | Open Culture ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJi6kp )

07:58:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19400 @ 0.00055853 = 10.8355 BTC [+] {2}

08:15:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8575 @ 0.00055895 = 4.793 BTC [+]

08:25:05 jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190768 therealaltcoin *does* have a mechanism to scale down difficulty. plenty good does it do.

08:25:05 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?

08:27:37 jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190188 >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges...

08:27:37 assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 23:09:38; BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Win response http://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/trading/uks-fca-issues-warning-against-bitcoin-brokers-bit4x-and-venetfx/

08:28:18 jurov: they aren't still there only cuz mircea_popescu mediated it

08:34:23 BingoBoingo: So much history

08:36:58 kakobrekla: such scammer

08:38:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4526 @ 0.00054843 = 2.4822 BTC [-]

08:44:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2335 @ 0.00055897 = 1.3052 BTC [+] {2}

08:45:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23065 @ 0.00056224 = 12.9681 BTC [+]

08:48:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29527 @ 0.00056318 = 16.629 BTC [+] {2}

08:51:21 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190801 < nobody expects the spanish exhibition

08:51:21 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:58:09; punkman: http://www.openculture.com/2014/10/when-modern-art-was-used-as-torture-during-the-spanish-civil-war.html

08:53:54 Adlai: !b 1

08:53:55 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2Y6WYBS.txt )

09:01:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8295 @ 0.0005643 = 4.6809 BTC [+]

09:09:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32924 @ 0.00056697 = 18.6669 BTC [+] {2}

09:37:15 punkman: http://blackflagbooks.tumblr.com/

09:37:17 assbot: Black Flag Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJr5SI )

09:40:46 cazalla: http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-cosby-said-got-drugs-women-sex-212247466.html

09:40:48 assbot: APNewsBreak: Cosby said he got drugs to give women for sex - Yahoo News ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJrq7V )

09:40:50 cazalla: hey hey hey

09:50:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51300 @ 0.00054806 = 28.1155 BTC [-] {3}

10:07:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36340 @ 0.00055224 = 20.0684 BTC [+]

10:12:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13202 @ 0.00054727 = 7.2251 BTC [-]

10:24:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20797 @ 0.00056001 = 11.6465 BTC [+] {3}

10:36:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56166 @ 0.00054614 = 30.6745 BTC [-] {2}

10:50:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ?

10:52:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16375 @ 0.00053429 = 8.749 BTC [-]

10:54:32 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190152 << cool!

10:54:32 assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 22:18:29; TomServo: Ahoy all, just wanted to pass long: my 0.5.3 node is humming along, currently reporting blockheight 364171.

10:55:17 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190161 << roflmao. "oh hello we are a cutting edge bleedin' tech company. what we do is we put tickets in cloudflare."

10:55:17 assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 22:34:34; pete_dushenski: "CoinbaseAdrian 30 points an hour ago* : Sorry guys, we're looking into this. It appears to be an issue with our network provider (Cloudflare). We have an urgent ticket open with them and I'll update here with any details." << response to coinbase being offline

10:58:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds.

10:58:08 mircea_popescu: obviously, a kludge.

10:59:54 shinohai: I am at height 361167 his morning. Agonizingly slow.

11:00:05 mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats

11:00:10 gribble: Current Blocks: 360472 | Current Difficulty: 47589591153.625 | Next Difficulty At Block: 360863 | Next Difficulty In: 391 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, 22 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

11:00:16 mircea_popescu: i beg your pardon ?

11:00:33 punkman: lol

11:00:51 shinohai: Either gribble is off or I am xD

11:00:52 mircea_popescu: "o hai folks i'm talking from day after tomorrow. time is moving by really really too slow!!!1"

11:00:59 shinohai: lol

11:01:11 punkman: gribble is stuck

11:01:24 mircea_popescu: ,yeah

11:01:24 punkman: 364240 is current height

11:01:56 mircea_popescu: i think we should have a network vote.

11:02:14 mircea_popescu: everyone that thinks i should have smoked cheese and salmon breakfast, make your blocks v 666

11:02:31 mircea_popescu: everyone that thinks i should have creme fraiche and strawberries, make your blocks v 1337

11:02:53 mircea_popescu: best way to end up eating pork and beans or something

11:03:22 shinohai: https://transfer.sh/9OKMj/fwdqupu.png

11:03:24 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H9YPA8 )

11:04:22 shinohai: Lox and eggs for me this morning.

11:04:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190226 << the point that "bitcoin core" = unsafe at any version is really not made often enough.

11:04:40 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:05:07; BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cd4nd/unless_all_major_miners_begin_mining_with_fully/

11:05:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35150 @ 0.00053178 = 18.6921 BTC [-]

11:06:22 mircea_popescu: an' in other news, http://36.media.tumblr.com/cd2581c62617b5a509994b1e6cd4c4dd/tumblr_nbetwj6JLL1t0bn4lo1_1280.jpg

11:06:23 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H9ZGRx )

11:06:45 shinohai: She looks tall enough to ride this ride.

11:08:34 shinohai: Just noticed dat tat

11:08:44 mircea_popescu: "Market forces will prevail and miners will have to adapt." loller.

11:08:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00053461 = 10.5853 BTC [+] {2}

11:08:55 mircea_popescu: i thought reddit didn't believe in "market forces".

11:09:25 shinohai: reddit believes *they* are the market force, or so I thought.

11:09:34 punkman: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions

11:09:35 assbot: Bitcoin Number Of transactions Per Day ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha0HZy )

11:09:54 punkman: apparently 200l+ transactions today

11:09:57 punkman: *200k

11:10:05 mircea_popescu: yeah, basically, whenever the market forces do what they expect they're all market-force-y, and when the market forces tell them to go dangle they're all democaca-y

11:10:13 mircea_popescu: which is a sort of macaque.

11:10:33 mircea_popescu: punkman there's some derps putting in like 1mn txn for 1 btc total fees.

11:10:49 mircea_popescu: which has the excellent side effect of taking the piss out of all the redditard "unbanked" who were used to pay 0 fees.

11:11:05 shinohai: So that explains the slow tx times today

11:11:13 mircea_popescu: been going for weeks.

11:12:14 punkman: does 0.0001 still get you in next block?

11:12:31 mircea_popescu: iirc thats what they pay.

11:12:43 mircea_popescu: so make it 0.00011 or something.

11:12:45 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190247 << quite.

11:12:45 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:09:17; decimation: unfortunately blockheight is only a solid concept in retrospect

11:13:21 mircea_popescu: might have been 0.00001 what they paid, i dun recall. look at the backlog should be obvious

11:14:14 shinohai: I thought that the 0.1% per 1 BTC transacted was reasonable, as set out in the Declaration of Sovereignty.

11:14:36 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190265 << a very stupid system incidentally. mirroring the unixtime idiocy. just take the cesium, base everytrhing on that.

11:14:36 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:06; decimation: point being, someone derives time (the iers) from astronomy, sets the cesium, and broadcasts it

11:14:56 punkman: "I run the restaurant from 1996, its a family business. I work here with my father and my mother. We only cook traditional Greek food. We accept Bitcoin for payments. They have come 6-8 people pay with Bitcoin from Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Luxembourg but i hope for more people with Bitcoins"

11:15:05 mircea_popescu: shinohai unrelated things tho. a tx is a tx, it charges by byte.

11:15:18 punkman: 6-8 people since 2012 :D

11:15:20 mircea_popescu: punkman nb. name/address ?

11:15:31 punkman: http://www.agelos.gr/

11:15:32 assbot: Page Redirection ... ( http://bit.ly/1gl86Qh )

11:15:58 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190266 << so far the balance of what i got was "man this site is confusing" in various tongues.

11:15:58 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:16; asciilifeform: unrelated: folks competing for mircea_popescu's 1 btc prize for therealbitcoin callgraph can strike 'egypt' utility off the list. it is a worthless pile of shit, which produces worthless piles of shit (at least for cpp proggy)

11:17:05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190284 << "if you need it, you'll have to write it" rule of nature stands undisturbed.

11:17:05 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:17:01; asciilifeform: total waste of time.

11:17:07 kakobrekla: punkman you are greek?

11:17:16 mircea_popescu: i suppose we progressed from moore law's to this noore law.

11:17:20 punkman: I'm transgreek

11:17:24 mircea_popescu: ahahaha.

11:17:28 mircea_popescu: wasn't he from crete ?

11:17:34 mircea_popescu: which is greek in the sense etruria is latin ?

11:18:19 punkman: aye, Creta is nice

11:18:44 *: shinohai imagines punkman as a Spartan

11:19:01 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190307 << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh.

11:19:01 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:23:25; asciilifeform: because i won't be running it.

11:19:36 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190323 << bwahahaha who the fuck does these things.

11:19:36 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:27:26; asciilifeform: and unable to distinguish between functions of same name in different classes

11:19:39 kakobrekla: greek islands are the best. i very much enjoyed them, perhaps mykonos the most. jurov would love it there, im sure.

11:22:36 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190359 << i dun get it past "ru govt stole some dude's money".

11:22:36 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 01:36:51; asciilifeform: so apparently they had to take the bank by storm.

11:23:31 mircea_popescu: 99999 Protocol version loller

11:23:50 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/195.211.154.159-8333/ << lulz mebbe worth a write-up ?

11:23:51 assbot: 195.211.154.159:8333 - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/1gl8Chj )

11:25:49 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190400 << nah. does not work.

11:25:49 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:11:39; asciilifeform: difficulty oughta have been defined in relation to the difficulty of the last solved block, solely.

11:25:57 mircea_popescu: the "difficulty of last solved block" does not exist

11:26:04 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 473 @ 0.00408605 = 1.9327 BTC [-] {2}

11:26:08 mircea_popescu: in that difficulty is a statistical measure and statistics of sets of one is undefined.

11:26:51 punkman: difficulty target is a number

11:26:57 mircea_popescu: that it is.

11:27:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18700 @ 0.00053144 = 9.9379 BTC [-] {2}

11:27:38 mircea_popescu: for students of the bitcoin protocol actually interested in learning how it works, create a list of all block hashes, calculate implied difficulty on that basis, compare to actual difficulty at the time and calculate variance etc. nice graphs to be had.

11:30:05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190423 << experimentally, i have a lot more faith in things that barely survive than in Britannia eternal. experimentally, the former do survive, the latter crash on the jagged shores of time.

11:30:05 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:21:03; asciilifeform: the thing barely survives today, much less ww3

11:31:34 Adlai: mircea_popescu: too bad only the dumb&industrious students will do that. the smart&lazy just go to sipa's charts...

11:31:41 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190434 << the hardware belongs to miners. miners direct the hashing at pools, doing very little validation whatsoever. so, 100% of mining power does in fact not run bitcoin at all.

11:31:41 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:26:24; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: unless i seriously misunderstand, 50%+ of the hash rate belongs to folks ~who aren't even running bitcoin~ but a toystore version

11:31:54 mircea_popescu: then, of THOSE POOLS it turned out that ~50% are too confused to even lie.

11:32:09 mircea_popescu: they simply say things that bear an impredictable (to them first of all) relationship to reality.

11:32:28 mircea_popescu: Adlai this sort of smartness i'll gladly do without.

11:32:52 mircea_popescu: it is the smartness of the nor merely dumb, but unrescuably so.

11:34:01 mircea_popescu: (yes, there's a smartness of the dumb, like there's a richness of the poor and a cleanliness of the filthy and honesty of politicians and so on and so forth.)

11:34:18 Adlai: eloquence of the mute

11:34:33 mircea_popescu: now that actually works.

11:35:19 shinohai: http://btc.blockr.io/address/info/1C4Q1RvUb3bzk4aaLVgGccnSnaHYFdESzY

11:35:20 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha6VbS )

11:35:20 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190446 << riiight. hopefully they call them service packs.

11:35:20 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:45:29; assbot: Why Ubuntu plans to replace traditional Linux packages with something better | PCWorld ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJqEnF )

11:35:35 punkman: heh

11:38:06 shinohai: And LOL @ this address: http://btc.blockr.io/address/info/1FUCK1oBgCmbbBjxaybjbEmvkh8RCUdgBx

11:38:07 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1gl9uCo )

11:39:03 mircea_popescu: lmao decimation ends up putting a dime in the pot ?

11:39:22 punkman: shinohai imagines punkman as a Spartan << here have a cretan instead http://gallery.photo.net/photo/4849567-md.jpg

11:39:23 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1gl9Etr )

11:39:29 Adlai: vanity address of a stressed tester

11:39:54 shinohai: punkman: I like it, he smokes.

11:42:45 kakobrekla: dunno, my txes get confirmed in first block w/o any fees. you people don't know how to curate your outputs.

11:43:18 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you have old coinbases.

11:43:30 mircea_popescu: we're talking the problems of poorfags here.

11:43:35 kakobrekla: old, big, curated etc

11:43:48 mircea_popescu: aham. but all the curation in the world won

11:43:55 mircea_popescu: 't help your .5 btc you just got from coinbase.

11:45:18 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190542 <<==>> http://fraudsters.com/2014/bitcoin-in-argentina-exactly-nothing-to-do-with-the-derps/

11:45:18 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 03:38:12; mats: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/how-bitcoin-is-disrupting-argentinas-economy.html << news of your celebrity in .ar, bagels7

11:45:19 assbot: Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha9vyF )

11:45:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.0005312 = 3.4528 BTC [-]

11:45:25 mircea_popescu: the "press" is on a repeater mode with that crud

11:45:30 mircea_popescu: it has exactly 0 reporting value.

11:47:39 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190599 << you have changed nothing in the scheme, just made its problems perhaps less easy to observe because hey, frantic activity with b inoculars now.

11:47:39 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:01:47; decimation: find predictions for the time they are to occur and compare with your clock under test

11:47:55 mircea_popescu: what is the difference between ntp telling you what time it is and *tp telling you what to observe ?

11:50:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190669 << there are so many of these by now, all it takes is a little phuctor scratching to send the hive crazy.

11:50:27 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:17:52; asciilifeform: and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for.

11:51:09 mircea_popescu: because "people" of the pale complexion have allowed themselves to be trained in such god-awful conformity, and the space of possibilities has lain fallow for so long, to be shat into by alf's smirking plumbooker, that it's getting fucking filled.

11:51:46 shinohai: http://onerng.info/

11:51:47 assbot: OneRNG - Hardware Random Number Generator ... ( http://bit.ly/1glaxCo )

11:52:03 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190686 << i still do not approve of the proof.

11:52:03 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:26:43; *: asciilifeform confesses that he did not know this proof, and, as a student, wasted a great deal of time trying to devise such a thing

11:52:58 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190714 << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh.

11:52:58 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:42:30; asciilifeform: other thing is, ideally the graph would be in some logical arrangement

11:53:32 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190747 << heh. buy moar pmbs!!

11:53:32 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 06:55:52; cazalla: well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out

11:55:02 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190800 << which explains why they gotta be both "professionals" and "scholars'. random schmucks not a good enough descriptor, specifically ebcause it fits so well.

11:55:02 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:51:18; punkman: "professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work."

11:55:23 mircea_popescu: then stolfi wonders whether i want to be this or that title. as if a title is in any way useful or related to me.

11:55:31 mircea_popescu: but hey. professional scholars. all that fits in their head are names.

11:55:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12251 @ 0.00053486 = 6.5526 BTC [+]

11:56:18 mircea_popescu: the names of the places they'll never see. what exactly is the difference between an academitard and a housewife watching discovery channel i shall never know.

11:56:23 punkman: does US have translators that only speak English?

11:56:29 mircea_popescu: they both engage in making predictions, which are about as interesting and useful.

11:56:33 mircea_popescu: ahaha

11:57:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23763 @ 0.0005312 = 12.6229 BTC [-]

11:58:03 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190807 << actually, muh intel found the exact stuff fca derps are derping about today, soime point in 2013. kakobrekla got put through some questioning at the time, which iirc is on the public record

11:58:03 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 08:27:37; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190188 >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges...

11:58:32 mircea_popescu: in the end it came to exactly the same thing, not scammed anyone to anyone's knowledge, and why exactly would i put so much power in the hands of inept fiat "regulatory bodies"

11:58:57 punkman: it was an old article, I also posted it before I think

11:59:36 mircea_popescu: could be.

11:59:55 punkman: can't find it in the logs :(

12:01:32 mircea_popescu: in any case i recall f.mpif had an investment with a derivative something for a few months.

12:02:06 mircea_popescu: but iirc the star trader quit and the fund closed down or somesuch.

12:03:04 mircea_popescu: anyway, if he does the assbot thing i'm definitely going to allow selected l2 people to manage f.mpif pcs.

12:03:07 mircea_popescu: should be the fun of all time.

12:03:40 kakobrekla: well, not really quit, but euro decided to go to shit and specifications of fund did not go along with that

12:03:43 punkman: why is assbot wallet needed for mpif pcs?

12:04:11 mircea_popescu: punkman cuz i say ?

12:05:15 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla a, right, volatility went up right then

12:05:18 mircea_popescu: i recall now.

12:05:24 punkman: mircea_popescu: well, sure.

12:05:48 kakobrekla: there was just one possible winning move, short and dont look.

12:06:49 mircea_popescu: anyway, im out. bbl.

12:17:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21050 @ 0.00053486 = 11.2588 BTC [+]

12:35:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00053307 = 12.3672 BTC [-]

13:01:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28600 @ 0.00053591 = 15.327 BTC [+] {3}

13:05:41 shinohai: http://descrier.co.uk/news/uk/hsbc-employees-sacked-after-staging-isis-style-mock-execution-during-team-building-exercise/

13:05:42 assbot: HSBC employees sacked after staging ISIS-style mock execution during team building exercise | Descrier News ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRt96I )

13:08:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22418 @ 0.0005312 = 11.9084 BTC [-]

13:28:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42600 @ 0.00053854 = 22.9418 BTC [+] {3}

13:52:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34356 @ 0.0005405 = 18.5694 BTC [+] {2}

13:56:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60600 @ 0.0005312 = 32.1907 BTC [-]

14:02:50 mats: nobody can take a joke anymore

14:05:57 shinohai: ?

14:06:10 shinohai: Oh, the article you must mean

14:18:05 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190832 << yes. node - synced (as discussed yesterday.) wanted copy for study.

14:18:05 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 10:50:32; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ?

14:19:29 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190838 << pogo has to work when plugged into the wall! what 'switch' ?!! and you cannot learn ~anything~ about the current time from a purported block. this is circular logic!1111 block is only valid ~if~ within 2h of current time. any backflow can and will result in enemies 'nudging' the time

14:19:29 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 10:58:01; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds.

14:19:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.00053472 = 10.8013 BTC [+]

14:19:58 asciilifeform: 'gets its time from the most recent block it accepts' is a logical impossibility given the current algo for 'accept'

14:20:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10050 @ 0.00054057 = 5.4327 BTC [+]

14:21:20 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190896 << by far the most interesting thing here is that every cpp programmer needs this. and it is available from dozens of vendors, as winblowz turdware of course. because ~nobody else uses cpp~ for anything

14:21:20 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:17:05; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190284 << "if you need it, you'll have to write it" rule of nature stands undisturbed.

14:22:30 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190906 << if i can't see how it made it, and repeat the process, it is useless to me

14:22:30 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:19:01; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190307 << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh.

14:24:11 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190911 << perhaps i should explain. dude was an odious, moralizing twerp, who played the 'holier than thou' game for ages. ru law requires ministers to declare income. he declared perhaps 1% of it. nailed fair and square. and if there is some way for him to have made that dough other than straight bribery, monkeys will fly from my arse.

14:24:11 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:22:36; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190359 << i dun get it past "ru govt stole some dude's money".

14:25:43 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190921 << precisely. what i was suggesting is to monotonically move the target 'harder'.

14:25:43 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:26:51; punkman: difficulty target is a number

14:26:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52400 @ 0.00054525 = 28.5711 BTC [+] {3}

14:26:01 asciilifeform: say, you get n blocks at a given target, and then the bit slides.

14:26:07 shinohai: Whelp looks like I am stuck on block 363726

14:26:36 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190967 << see logs.

14:26:36 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:51:46; shinohai: http://onerng.info/

14:26:39 asciilifeform: !s onerng

14:26:40 assbot: 11 results for 'onerng' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=onerng

14:27:02 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190969 << i would very much like to hear why !

14:27:02 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:03; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190686 << i still do not approve of the proof.

14:27:41 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190971 << absolutely not. the most 'connected' node of the graph ought to live in the center of field of vision, and so forth

14:27:41 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:58; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190714 << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh.

14:28:40 punkman: asciilifeform: how do we do infinite growth on the mining side though?

14:28:41 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190768 << the solution is 'don't be poor.'

14:28:41 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?

14:29:03 asciilifeform: punkman: for what do you need the infinite growth ?

14:29:16 punkman: asciilifeform: monotonically increasing difficulty

14:29:42 asciilifeform: punkman: the solution, i now realize, is difficulty which ratchets based on actual mass of work

14:29:51 asciilifeform: rather than time or block count

14:30:35 asciilifeform: so target would move once sufficient work matches a harder target

14:30:59 asciilifeform: (how to make this recurse correctly is an exercise for the reader)

14:31:25 asciilifeform: as for why anyone would willingly move the target by solving a harder-than-required one - this ought to be obvious

14:31:28 punkman: so I use a lot of hashing power for 1 hour and then make you wait 1 month for next block?

14:31:41 asciilifeform: (miners want to fuck up other miners more than they wish to do anything else, it turns out)

14:32:00 asciilifeform: punkman: this works only if you are the world champion by an unreasonable margin

14:32:11 asciilifeform: which is why it only happens to crackpot altcoins

14:32:27 asciilifeform: where such 'champions' exist

14:33:35 asciilifeform: my point here is that the time thing ~will~ have to be solved, because it is by far the most comically usg-dependent aspect of bitcoin

14:33:49 asciilifeform: network time is an extremely fragile political fiction

14:33:53 decimation: asciilifeform: what about waiting for a few hours to observe several blocks upon pogo boot?

14:33:56 asciilifeform: and to the extent bitcoind depends on it, it is broken by design.

14:34:11 asciilifeform: decimation: the blocks can be 'time travelers'

14:34:19 asciilifeform: transmitted just for the purpose of fucking with pogo

14:34:35 asciilifeform: must understand, time is presently a criterion in whether a block is a block

14:34:37 decimation: wouldn't they be rejected if 2 hours away?

14:34:42 asciilifeform: from what/??

14:34:50 asciilifeform: we have no clock on powerup!

14:35:24 decimation: yes, connect to a couple of remote nodes, wait for several blocks to verify (while keeping your own clock)

14:35:25 asciilifeform: say i feed your pogo the entire sequence of blocks 0,5000 with the period times. now it believes that it's 2009 ?

14:35:31 asciilifeform: decimation: sybils

14:35:32 asciilifeform: srsly

14:35:47 decimation: yes, but your sybil objection applies to all of bitcoin

14:35:57 asciilifeform: not in so far as it depends on proof of work

14:35:59 asciilifeform: rather than clocks

14:36:00 decimation: how does anyeone know they aren't being fed bullshit?

14:36:10 asciilifeform: because proof of work.

14:36:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31276 @ 0.00054622 = 17.0836 BTC [+]

14:36:16 decimation: precisely

14:36:25 asciilifeform: whereas we have no means of agreeing on the time.

14:36:37 decimation: do you trust your own clock on the pogo?

14:37:02 asciilifeform: pogo is able to keep time, in the relative sense, similar to how msdos did (periodic interrupt)

14:37:09 asciilifeform: but has no notion whatsoever of political time on power-up

14:37:13 Adlai: asciilifeform: actually, it also happens to non-crackpot altcoins (if such a thing exists), and multipools need to take care not to mine them too hard and kill their own geese

14:37:24 decimation: precisely. pogo starts its own stopwatch, and starts watching for blocks to verify

14:37:40 shinohai: https://blockchain.info/block-height/363736 <<< hmmm

14:37:42 assbot: Bitcoin Blocks At Height 363736 ... ( http://bit.ly/1HKcswk )

14:37:45 asciilifeform: decimation: presently, by definition they cannot verify

14:37:45 decimation: over time, a chain is built which contains timestamps and relative timestamps from the pogo

14:37:52 asciilifeform: because clock thinks it is 1969

14:38:03 asciilifeform: and so genesis block is more than 2h in the future

14:38:23 decimation: then the pogo can average the timestamps relative to its own samples of block times

14:38:23 asciilifeform: if you allow purported blocks to set your rtc, you are setting yourself up for a rewind attack

14:38:34 asciilifeform: if you allow it to ever move the rtc at all!

14:38:36 asciilifeform: please think about it

14:38:54 decimation: I agree but the enemy would have to know that this is a pogo vs. other bitcoin node

14:39:10 decimation: and the node feeding bullshit would be easily identified by a running bitcoind

14:39:14 Adlai: these guys have had trouble milking the udders off their cows: https://prohashing.com/help.html#payouts-computation

14:39:17 asciilifeform: i can feed you easy blocks from the past and move the average wherever i want

14:39:35 asciilifeform: decimation: once we are in the position of trying to 'identify bullshit' we're lost in the sea.

14:39:44 asciilifeform: the thing is supposed to be solidly automatic.

14:39:51 asciilifeform: with no display, keyboard, or setup ritual

14:40:28 decimation: why not "reject all blocks before timestamp X" for the purpose of setting clock

14:42:11 asciilifeform: the point which i am trying - and apparently failing - to make, is that the bitcoin protocol as we know it requires time to be an invariant, by which blocks are judged

14:42:14 asciilifeform: and never the reverse

14:42:22 asciilifeform: i didn't design the thing

14:42:34 asciilifeform: but it is screamingly apparent from the design

14:42:49 asciilifeform: and breaking it this way is certain to have unforeseen effects

14:42:59 asciilifeform: (some of which i foresee quite clearly)

14:43:45 asciilifeform: if you set the clock based on what is happening on the bitcoin network in any way, you are then in a state of sin.

14:43:54 asciilifeform: (to borrow von neumann's phrase)

14:43:58 decimation: agreed, it is self referential

14:44:18 decimation: but apparently setting it with a sextant is also a terrible idea?

14:44:26 asciilifeform: because needs hands

14:44:31 asciilifeform: it has to plug into the wall and go!

14:44:42 decimation: right, so push button plus astronomer in your wot

14:44:48 asciilifeform: button that does what ?

14:44:52 asciilifeform: hardcoded ip ?

14:45:00 decimation: nope. has clock, you set

14:45:08 asciilifeform: like an alarm clock ?

14:45:12 decimation: sure why not

14:45:14 asciilifeform: pogo has no buttons and no displays.

14:45:22 decimation: well, that's a difficulty

14:45:25 asciilifeform: you go to war with the pogo you have, not the pogo you wish you had, to borrow a bushism

14:45:43 asciilifeform: i'd put an oven oscillator in there, and 50 years of lithium battery, sure

14:45:47 decimation: the only 'fix' in that case is a separate box that serves time, under your own control

14:45:48 asciilifeform: but we haven't this option.

14:45:59 asciilifeform: we haven't any additional hardware

14:46:06 asciilifeform: adding so much as a shoelace to pogo would multiply the cost.

14:46:35 decimation: something like this chip would keep time for a long time http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/digital/real-time-clocks/DS3232.html

14:46:37 assbot: DS3232 Extremely Accurate I²C RTC with Integrated Crystal and SRAM - Maxim ... ( http://bit.ly/1HKdmsR )

14:46:46 asciilifeform: there is ~no shortage~ of parts for this

14:46:53 asciilifeform: we just don't have the option to use any of them.

14:47:08 asciilifeform: so much as opening pogo and touching inside multiplies the cost of the operation.

14:47:32 asciilifeform: incidentally, there is even an empty landing pad inside for rtc

14:47:36 asciilifeform: (it was designed for one!)

14:48:12 asciilifeform: but again, having this done would not only multiply the cost of the unit but add many times its cost in logistics to wherever this is done and then again to the destination.

14:49:01 asciilifeform: (...and then someone has to set the fucking clocks and wrap them back in the crate? who will it be? you? me? mircea_popescu?)

14:49:57 thestringpuller: i vote asciilifeform since he doesn't like leaving the house

14:50:24 asciilifeform: the other thing about the whole 'let's piss on the bitcoin protocol and let blockchain move the clock' thing is that it does ~NOT~ guarantee the required accuracy!

14:50:38 asciilifeform: drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others

14:50:46 asciilifeform: (depending on how the clock sync is done)

14:50:53 asciilifeform: this is a potentially catastrophic situation

14:51:12 asciilifeform: whereas if you rely on blocks, rather than nodes, you are permitting miners to induce clockdriftforks!

14:51:24 asciilifeform: which promises to be hilarious

14:52:32 asciilifeform: try to remember that we are talking about deploying potentially thousands of these

14:52:41 asciilifeform: the behaviour of these boxes ~actually matters~

14:52:50 asciilifeform: in that extreme dysfunction could actually frag the net

14:53:19 asciilifeform: in the worst case, converting them to sybils in the service of the enemy.

14:53:51 asciilifeform: i do not at present know of a non-retarded solution

14:54:32 asciilifeform: but it will have to come out of somebody's arse

14:54:38 asciilifeform: because the only alternative is retardation

14:55:48 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu find the time to visit 'arkakao' and load up on the highest octane sugar-bomb you can! and try to conceive of a solution to this mega-conundrum

14:55:50 gribble: The operation succeeded.

14:56:09 asciilifeform: i shall be doing the equivalent, this week

14:56:36 asciilifeform: because this is a truly dire problem, it cannot be waved away.

15:02:31 asciilifeform: i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ?

15:02:56 asciilifeform: letting nodes set own clocks based on what they can see on the net is rather like the train pushers.

15:03:24 asciilifeform: yes, they move...

15:03:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00054868 = 9.7116 BTC [+]

15:04:36 asciilifeform: for folks who are seriously working on the problem: i presently suspect that the solution will resemble some mix of 'lamport clock' and 'the firing squad problem'

15:04:39 jurov: so, to summarize. 1. time can't come from net because net ==== usg. 2. time can't come from any additional hw cuz cost

15:04:53 asciilifeform: ntp == usg

15:05:04 asciilifeform: bitcoin net == self-referential

15:05:10 jurov: the objections can be extended to any other protocol

15:05:30 thestringpuller: can't we just use sundials or something

15:05:32 asciilifeform: additional hw could be acceptable if we find somebody selling usb clocks, battery included, for a few bux

15:05:36 punkman: current phoundation version seems different https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/9546a977d354b2ec6cd8455538e68fe4ba343a44/src/main.cpp#L2628

15:05:38 assbot: bitcoin/main.cpp at 9546a977d354b2ec6cd8455538e68fe4ba343a44 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRIhRu )

15:05:48 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: machine with no keyboard, or display, or presumption of literate owner

15:05:49 punkman: I don't see local time in there

15:06:15 punkman: GetMedian https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/ce56f5621a94dcc2159ebe57e43da727eab18e6c/src/chain.h#L232

15:06:16 assbot: bitcoin/chain.h at ce56f5621a94dcc2159ebe57e43da727eab18e6c · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRIowv )

15:06:40 jurov: why going to such contortions with time before the rest of proto is secured?

15:06:40 asciilifeform: punkman: we already know that it is a monstrous perversion that has approximately same relation to bitcoin as american 'chocolate' does to chocolate

15:06:57 asciilifeform: jurov: because ~we don't have a workable scheme~ for pogo

15:07:00 asciilifeform: presently

15:07:15 jurov: i'm fine with ntp

15:07:15 asciilifeform: i firmly believe that all of the answers proposed so far are disastrously bad

15:07:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37250 @ 0.00055025 = 20.4968 BTC [+] {2}

15:07:42 asciilifeform: ntp has serious problems even aside from the central control

15:07:45 asciilifeform: as a protocol

15:07:47 jurov: and when there's whispernet, it can do time, too

15:08:19 asciilifeform: hell, n00bz to this channel get ddosed with what else if not a thousand ntp boxes !

15:08:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28573 @ 0.00055872 = 15.9643 BTC [+] {2}

15:09:21 asciilifeform: jurov: i personally am not very interested in building a weapon of war which enemy can turn off, collectively, by flipping a switch

15:09:30 jurov: oh i forgot to add to summary 3. no maintenance

15:10:01 asciilifeform: jurov: unless i am mistaken, the plan was to deploy these to the homes of cooperating civilians

15:10:06 asciilifeform: for 100% unattended operation

15:10:23 jurov: if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution

15:10:32 asciilifeform: don't have known addresses

15:10:38 asciilifeform: or ddos mechanisms which preferentially affect pogo.

15:10:41 asciilifeform: 'don't be poor'

15:11:09 asciilifeform: we know the basic shape of the answer, just not the particulars.

15:11:57 jurov: and how'd pogos masquerade? scanning and identifying btc nodes is easy

15:12:23 asciilifeform: who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ?

15:12:48 punkman: usg?

15:12:50 asciilifeform: the 'ddos' i'm concerned with is more that we are setting up a box with unique vulnerabilities

15:12:54 jurov: if it's 5000 residential lines, then it's easy

15:13:12 jurov: the civilians or their isps will stopp cooperate very quickly

15:13:20 asciilifeform: jurov: if they're 5000 residential lines in usa, just send the gasenwagen, aha

15:13:30 asciilifeform: this is not a mechanical problem, yes

15:13:56 asciilifeform: i am concerned with 'pogos will fall like dominoes from simple and cheap nudge' rather than 'in the dark future where being a known bitcoin user merits gassing'

15:13:59 jurov: so, ntp is the least worry atm

15:14:04 asciilifeform: (the latter is an entirely separate conversation)

15:14:30 asciilifeform: ntp means that you now have a multimegabyte leprous turd on your box.

15:15:18 asciilifeform: and that the thing can be taken out of commission entirely by the cheapest mitm.

15:15:22 jurov: btw, just today i got an offer for "small business" connection, it included ToS

15:15:37 asciilifeform: jurov: neato

15:15:43 jurov: guess what did it say? listed allowed server services

15:15:51 jurov: obv. no p2p there

15:16:00 punkman: asciilifeform: don't even need mitm, dozens of DoS vectors in there

15:16:03 asciilifeform: jurov: residential ?

15:16:04 jurov: and "must not disturb other users"

15:16:18 asciilifeform: jurov: classic chumpatron. exists on this side of the atlantic, too

15:16:20 punkman: reading the code is quite discouraging

15:16:32 asciilifeform: 'pay double for your residential line! because you are a moron and want to show it off!'

15:16:43 asciilifeform: 'get nothing in return but the word 'business' !!'

15:17:03 jurov: and where are these mythincal civilian nonresidential lines pogo is supposed to be on?

15:17:43 asciilifeform: jurov: plenty of folks lease office space. or have a non-retarded isp. etc

15:18:00 jurov: lol, having your employer ddoes, yet better!

15:18:12 asciilifeform: i've been running public node at home for years, in the heart of mordor

15:18:17 asciilifeform: never had problem.

15:18:32 jurov: so, stfu about ddosing then

15:18:33 shinohai: I just pay for business class internet so no one bothers me about my activities

15:19:01 asciilifeform: jurov: again, i was speaking of ddos in the sense of 'if it is trivial to take out pogo with a nudge that no one else will notice, it will be done'

15:19:12 asciilifeform: rather than the classical 'ocean of shit down your pipe' sense

15:19:32 jurov: but ntp flood is ocean of shit

15:19:33 asciilifeform: shinohai: jurov just described a 'business class' that ~will bother~

15:19:43 asciilifeform: jurov: flood is not the only known past ntp vuln

15:20:02 shinohai: T_T

15:20:24 asciilifeform: what'll folks propose to put on this poor box next? 'samba' ?

15:20:35 jurov: ah, so you suppose someone has ntp 0day in store for us

15:20:56 asciilifeform: familiar with term 'attack surface' ?

15:21:28 jurov: as opposed to "simple as possible, but no simpler"?

15:22:00 jurov: ntp is simple enough in this situation

15:22:09 asciilifeform: what is the shortest known implementation ?

15:22:18 asciilifeform: as in, one that jurov would be willing to read & sign

15:22:34 asciilifeform: must also work on uclibc and, possibly, musl

15:22:37 asciilifeform: and work without invoking dns

15:24:13 *: asciilifeform bbl

15:25:42 jurov: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10757575/how-to-write-a-ntp-client

15:25:43 assbot: c - How to write a NTP client? - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1LQjQX7 )

15:25:59 thestringpuller: so there is no way they can increase the block size

15:26:18 thestringpuller: my internet is drained right now relaying blocks, I had to shut my node off

15:26:35 thestringpuller: so i can stream music from my library. these people don't know what they're talking about.

15:27:42 jurov: heh. if you had a pogo, you'd just yank it from power

15:28:39 jurov: i don't see where to find 5000 ppl that would tolerate such bw hog

15:29:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38900 @ 0.00056188 = 21.8571 BTC [+] {2}

15:30:42 thestringpuller: jurov: if i had a pogo i would connect it to the neighbors unsecured wifi XD

15:31:15 punkman: from 0.5.3 source "/// when NTP implemented, change to just nTime = GetAdjustedTime()"

15:31:19 punkman: :P

15:32:49 jurov: thestringpuller wih $10 wifi nic you can route bitcoind there right now, no?

15:35:41 decimation: I don't get it, why do we need to run the ntp daemon to use ntp?

15:35:46 decimation: just use ntpdate to set the clock once and be done

15:35:50 decimation: will work for a year or two

15:36:14 decimation: 'civilian' chumper's electricity is probably not more reliable than that anyway

15:37:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40400 @ 0.00055182 = 22.2935 BTC [-]

15:37:42 decimation: and the 'attack surface' consists of a few packets asking for the time

15:38:22 thestringpuller: jurov: yea and assuming the neighbor's wifi is setup to allow incoming connections to 8333

15:39:18 thestringpuller: but the main issue is that my upstream limitations are greater restricted than downstream, so when I relay blocks and tx data esp. when mempool is getting big, it chokes me from doing anything remote (like ssh is even slow)

15:39:53 jurov: if you had sane router like dd-wrt or mikrotik

15:40:06 jurov: you could set ougoing traffic shaper

15:40:08 mike_c: omg - this better not turn out like the robot ping pong match: http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/giant-robots-set-to-fight-after-u-s-company-issues-video-challenge-to-japanese-rival-1.2456864

15:40:09 assbot: Giant robots set to fight after U.S. company issues video challenge to Japanese rival | CTV News ... ( http://bit.ly/1HdzqZu )

15:40:40 punkman: I can barely do 20-30kbps up without router getting constipated, at least when seeding torrents

15:41:44 thestringpuller: punkman: jurov i can do up to 600kbps on torrents without seeing constipation

15:41:56 thestringpuller: but bitcoind is demanding like 1mbps

15:42:13 thestringpuller: which is like the upward limits set by the ISP

15:43:23 jurov: the idea is, if you limit the uplink yourself before isp does, you can set priority for misc traffic

15:43:57 thestringpuller: yea. torrent clients (rtorrent) let you limit from within the client

15:44:26 thestringpuller: i don't understand why I should have to set iptable rules

15:45:22 jurov: because bitcoind does not know how to limit itself

15:46:27 jurov: in companies where i did sysadmin, outgoing email was prone to slow everything to crawl with ADSL, and obv setting limits on everyone's email clients was impractical

15:46:44 jurov: after shaping and setting priorities all went fine

15:48:42 decimation: at the cost of slowing email delivery

15:48:50 decimation: 'plox to make email faster'

15:50:26 jurov: haha yes. but most of the time it just throttled it from gobbling full 768k down to 600k, not very noticeable

16:09:31 shinohai: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByTeP7JCMAEEymF.jpg <<< ASSet of the day.

16:09:32 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HKlA4a )

16:11:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82100 @ 0.00055428 = 45.5064 BTC [+] {3}

16:20:49 mats: http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid

16:20:50 assbot: I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me - Vox ... ( http://bit.ly/1J2tArT )

16:20:56 mats: loled

16:36:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6700 @ 0.00054838 = 3.6741 BTC [-]

16:40:59 pete_dushenski: "The real problem: a simplistic, unworkable, and ultimately stifling conception of social justice" << sounds about right.

16:42:14 lobbes: "So it's not just that students refuse to countenance uncomfortable ideas — they refuse to engage them, period. Engagement is considered unnecessary, as the immediate, emotional reactions of students contain all the analysis and judgment that sensitive issues demand." << ayup

16:42:25 pete_dushenski: "All the old, enlightened means of discussion and analysis —from due process to scientific method — are dismissed as being blind to emotional concerns and therefore unfairly skewed toward the interest of straight white males" << moar gold.

16:50:57 punkman: "I have intentionally adjusted my teaching materials as the political winds have shifted." "While I used to pride myself on getting students to question themselves and engage with difficult concepts and texts, I now hesitate. What if this hurts my evaluations and I don't get tenure?"

16:51:17 punkman: yeah what if you don't get tenure

16:56:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7856 @ 0.00056463 = 4.4357 BTC [+]

17:08:33 trinque: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=03-06-2015#1153360 << previous thread

17:08:33 assbot: Logged on 03-06-2015 17:58:37; ben_vulpes: (unrelated: http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid)

17:16:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00056659 = 19.6607 BTC [+] {2}

17:25:48 trinque: punkman | does 0.0001 still get you in next block? << this is what deedbot- pays

17:29:36 trinque: asciilifeform: I got clang to fart out a graphviz dot file; so far, every tool that can eat the thing results in a horrid ball of yarn

17:29:54 trinque: noticed that many of the tools there are more or less the same java program

17:30:29 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

17:30:36 trinque: I'm not even going to share the result; just take a pen and go nuts on a piece of paper and you'll have it

17:31:03 ascii_field: trinque: the 'dot' file, does it contain something like a logical flow graph ?

17:31:05 ascii_field: in whatever format

17:32:07 trinque: yeah it's a directed graph; however, clang also barfed lots of unnamed nodes

17:32:12 trinque: Node0xd2ace8391f0

17:32:15 trinque: so on

17:32:17 ascii_field: then useless

17:32:19 trinque: yep

17:32:48 ascii_field: this is so infuriatingly basic

17:32:56 ascii_field: just want a matrix of what calls what

17:32:58 shinohai: https://github.com/zrm/snowhttps://github.com/zrm/snow

17:32:59 assbot: Page not found · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HLjHlY )

17:33:05 trinque: I cannot see how this tool does not exist

17:33:11 shinohai: bleh: https://github.com/zrm/snow

17:33:12 assbot: zrm/snow · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HLjFKO )

17:33:12 trinque: except that C++ itself foils any attempt

17:33:23 ascii_field: shinohai: see log

17:33:33 trinque: !s

17:33:33 assbot: Need a search term.

17:33:35 trinque: !s snow

17:33:36 assbot: 173 results for 'snow' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=snow

17:33:57 trinque: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-07-2015#1190630

17:33:57 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:49; decimation: asciilifeform: https://github.com/zrm/snow < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list

17:33:58 ascii_field: shinohai,: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190632

17:33:58 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:54; asciilifeform: mats: what is interesting about it ?

17:34:17 shinohai: Hmm missed that. Interesting concept

17:34:55 ascii_field: nah

17:34:59 ascii_field: same crud as 'tor'

17:35:02 ascii_field: for same reason.

17:35:11 ascii_field: faux p2p

17:37:09 trinque: ascii_field: did you see the awesome glsa on icu yesterday?

17:37:15 trinque: https://security.gentoo.org/glsa/201507-04

17:37:15 assbot: Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0QJY )

17:38:13 trinque: notable packages linked against icu on my box include.... firefox

17:38:18 ascii_field: aha

17:38:31 trinque: lol and chrome has it too

17:38:51 jurov: trinque deedbot now has only enough for 27 blocks?

17:39:04 trinque: jurov: enough of a balance?

17:39:10 jurov: yes

17:39:19 trinque: there are a few other unspent outputs

17:39:23 trinque: it will switch to the next

17:39:45 jurov: oh i see

17:40:44 trinque: and if it gets low, feel free to throw some bitdust in the tank

17:40:49 trinque: should be good for a while though

17:40:59 trinque: I see 0.1028202 BTC

17:42:11 trinque: now that the de-dockerization is complete, I may have it announce its current balance along with newly uploaded deeds

17:46:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22700 @ 0.00056737 = 12.8793 BTC [+] {2}

17:46:56 ascii_field: trinque: and guess what, rebuilding all the deps of that thing would take a month+ on my box

17:47:05 ascii_field: and that's ~after~ resolving the circular dependencies

17:48:03 trinque: I will never mock stallman emailing himself static html ever again.

17:48:55 trinque: I've half considered trying to stop using the web so much, aside from maybe syncing certain sites to a local box.

17:49:04 trinque: it's clearly *all* irreparably fucked.

17:52:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7400 @ 0.00056658 = 4.1927 BTC [-]

17:53:50 ascii_field: .... and how much shitgnomism is rolled into the 'updated' version of 10,001 proggies that will install.

17:57:27 trinque: nowhere clearer than the recent 1m+ lines-changed linux release

17:58:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58600 @ 0.00056872 = 33.327 BTC [+] {3}

17:59:48 ascii_field: at this point, any unixlike box with a graphical display may as well be running winblowz

18:06:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00056891 = 9.4439 BTC [+] {2}

18:10:11 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

18:10:24 ascii_field: everyone who ever made fun of rms deserves to be fed a litre of 'toe jam' now.

18:10:27 ascii_field: and every day.

18:12:19 mircea_popescu: ascii_field i know i'm fed up with random shit depending on random shit, but it's not mere stupidity. it's just them trying to make sure shit permeates everywhere.

18:12:31 ascii_field: aha

18:12:31 mircea_popescu: oh, openssl put out a bug ? best make sure the fucking calculator pulls it in.

18:12:46 punkman: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/drone-fires-burgers-at-the-homeless-in-charity-viral-video-gone-wrong-10372457.html

18:12:47 assbot: Drone fires burgers at the homeless in charity viral video gone wrong - Americas - World - The Independent ... ( http://bit.ly/1HdQJcW )

18:12:47 ascii_field: elementary.

18:12:50 mircea_popescu: anyway, re the switch : let's talk it through.

18:13:05 *: ascii_field stands up ears

18:13:08 mircea_popescu: so, when you start the pogo, you provide it with the human touch, divine spark, politica time.

18:13:19 mircea_popescu: this, you have to do. like it or not we dunno how to abstract it away.

18:13:31 mircea_popescu: from there on, iut carries on by simply syncing its clock to last accepted block.

18:13:31 ascii_field: howabout at 4am on a sunday when the mains flickers ?

18:13:37 mircea_popescu: yes this opens it up to attack, but

18:13:45 mircea_popescu: you take it down and start it over with new magic touch

18:13:53 ascii_field: congrats, now pogo behaves like the clock on my stove

18:13:54 mircea_popescu: inconvenience is not a controlling point here.

18:13:57 mircea_popescu: it does yes.

18:13:59 ascii_field: except with no display !

18:14:00 mircea_popescu: what can we do ?

18:14:05 ascii_field: what, i'm to poll it ?

18:14:17 mircea_popescu: its principal function ius being polled anyway

18:14:27 ascii_field: now it is no longer a civilian box

18:14:39 mircea_popescu: i am sorry you can't have candy kalash.

18:14:43 ascii_field: whole point was 'here let me fuck you and plug this box into your router'

18:15:00 ascii_field: not 'learn to maintain this steam engine'

18:15:08 mircea_popescu: it is held together by the superficial tension of frog entails.

18:15:16 mircea_popescu: nevertyheless, that is a marked improvement over the current situation

18:15:26 ascii_field: i am not sure how this improves on anything

18:15:27 mircea_popescu: held together by the superficial tension of hemorhagic diarhea

18:15:51 mircea_popescu: illustrate an attack for my benefit.

18:16:02 danielpbarron: isn't there supposed to be a way to send commands to the pogo? otherwise how is it useful to me as a "full node" if I can't query it for blocks/transactions and relay new ones I have created for it?

18:16:03 ascii_field: with the scheme described, you don't even need an attack

18:16:06 ascii_field: they never get off the ground at all

18:16:19 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron query yes, order notrly.

18:16:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00055975 = 12.4265 BTC [-] {2}

18:17:00 mircea_popescu: ascii_field is the things' processor freq known ?

18:17:05 ascii_field: the idea, as i understood it, was to let folks set up nodes without human committment

18:17:20 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: yes, though i've forgotten the exact number. 500MHz i think it was.

18:17:28 mircea_popescu: this obviously can be measured

18:17:33 ascii_field: it keeps time fine!

18:17:35 ascii_field: i said this

18:17:37 mircea_popescu: i mean, by siomething running on the box in question

18:17:41 ascii_field: just not when powered down!

18:17:53 ascii_field: but keeps perfect interrupt-based clock when running

18:17:57 ascii_field: at least as good as pc

18:18:11 ascii_field: this doesn't need any magic, it works on trad kernel

18:18:16 ascii_field: right now.

18:18:28 mircea_popescu: and you don't like having to start it by manual command because myeah.

18:18:50 ascii_field: because these are to be given to folks who will not volunteer any meat commitment

18:18:54 ascii_field: but will agree to plug in box

18:18:57 ascii_field: or so was my understanding

18:19:04 mircea_popescu: myeah.

18:19:44 mircea_popescu: and setting the time to "timestamp of the last block it actually has on disk" is going to what ?

18:19:53 ascii_field: see today's thread

18:19:54 ascii_field: plz

18:20:03 mircea_popescu: i have. but tell me again.

18:20:08 ascii_field: for one thing, there may not be any blocks on disk

18:20:09 mircea_popescu: repetition is not always a sin.

18:20:14 ascii_field: for another, it could be days, weeks, months old

18:20:28 mircea_popescu: but the next block it gets wouldn't be more than two hours off.

18:20:32 mircea_popescu: even if it is months old.

18:20:33 ascii_field: wat????

18:20:41 ascii_field: it'll be 2 hrs delta to the last known!

18:20:43 mircea_popescu: if last block it has is x, 5 weeks old

18:20:44 ascii_field: this is elementary

18:20:48 mircea_popescu: block x+1 will not be current

18:20:56 ascii_field: it will be 'from the future'

18:21:02 mircea_popescu: it will be 5 weeks old +- 10 minutes

18:21:03 ascii_field: because machine thinks it is '69

18:21:03 mircea_popescu: mno

18:21:10 mircea_popescu: ah if nothing on disk yes.

18:21:17 mircea_popescu: but we were discussing "block on disk is 5 weeks old"

18:21:21 ascii_field: and if something on disk, then perhaps it is 2009

18:21:25 mircea_popescu: so ?

18:21:25 ascii_field: from the cpu's pov

18:21:34 ascii_field: and any incoming block is invalid, because 'from the future'

18:21:35 mircea_popescu: the next block to wahtever it has on disk is not going to be too much from the future.

18:21:38 mircea_popescu: no.

18:21:43 ascii_field: >2h --> too far

18:21:49 ascii_field: according to the traditional bitcoin protocol.

18:21:55 mircea_popescu: again : if you have block x, from a year ago, when you get block x+1, the styamp on block x+1 will be, 1year ago + 10 minutes

18:21:57 ascii_field: realize, time is specified as an invariant

18:22:14 mircea_popescu: exactly.

18:22:21 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: if we lack a clock, we are wide open to replay attack

18:22:29 mircea_popescu: illustrate.

18:22:29 ascii_field: because the box has no idea what year it actually is

18:22:37 ascii_field: much less what time

18:22:55 ascii_field: even if you weasel out of this one by hardcoding block hashes, etc

18:23:05 mircea_popescu: just build an example wouldja.

18:23:06 ascii_field: you are still open to crafted, induced clock drift

18:23:31 ascii_field: fine, example. malicious miner starts crapping out blocks with timestamp more and more off in the future

18:23:40 ascii_field: little by little, 5000 pogos slide with it

18:23:45 ascii_field: eventually fork.

18:23:50 mircea_popescu: wait a second.

18:23:54 mircea_popescu: what % hash does this miner have ?

18:23:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4454 @ 0.0005699 = 2.5383 BTC [+]

18:23:55 ascii_field: not a proper fork

18:23:59 ascii_field: but a network split

18:24:14 ascii_field: where pogo fleet is now own parallel universe

18:24:36 mircea_popescu: this is a horribru example. so, miner has 10% of the hash, 10% of the bnlocks are badly timed. what of it, pogo resets on the remainder.

18:24:42 mircea_popescu: this isn't an attack.

18:24:49 ascii_field: resets ?

18:24:51 ascii_field: why ?

18:25:06 mircea_popescu: because you mined block 5, with a bad time, someone else mines 6 with a right time, pogo is now on block 6.

18:25:08 ascii_field: all it sees is 'block was broadcast, has timestamp t, average it now'

18:25:23 ascii_field: there is no 'bad time', normally there is 2hrs of 'play' in the gears

18:25:23 mircea_popescu: no average. set clock = timestamp of last block

18:25:34 ascii_field: all the malicious miner needs to do is keep nudging withing the allowed bounds

18:25:46 mircea_popescu: you've not yet constructed a credible example.

18:26:05 ascii_field: let's suppose a powered-up pogo sets clock using first block it sees

18:26:10 ascii_field: what if said block is a 'martian' block ?

18:26:12 mircea_popescu: last it sees on disk.

18:26:16 mircea_popescu: not first block it sees.

18:26:21 ascii_field: clean disk!

18:26:26 mircea_popescu: forget that for a moment.

18:26:33 mircea_popescu: let's consider the not clean disk situation

18:26:44 ascii_field: how did the disk become not empty ?

18:26:50 ascii_field: dropped by god ?

18:26:51 mircea_popescu: can you forget that for a moment ?

18:26:54 ascii_field: ok...

18:27:01 mircea_popescu: suppose it's not empty. so, pogo thinks time = last block on disk

18:27:10 mircea_popescu: once it accepts a further block, it resets its clock too.

18:27:18 jurov: because you mined block 5, with a bad time, someone else mines 6 << and it will get dropped because pogo considers delta from 5 invalid

18:27:23 mircea_popescu: now, this theoretically is vulnerable. but practically, can you construct the attack for me ?

18:27:23 ascii_field: ^^^^

18:27:31 ascii_field: ok:

18:27:38 mircea_popescu: jurov 5 couldn't have been that far off and be accepted from 4.

18:27:47 jurov: whuy not?

18:27:53 ascii_field: next block is from hitler. it has timestamp of... yesterday.

18:28:01 mircea_popescu: it gets rejected

18:28:06 mircea_popescu: can't be next block. hitler lost.

18:28:06 ascii_field: then genuine block appears. it now appears to be 'from the future'

18:28:08 ascii_field: is rejected.

18:28:10 mircea_popescu: nope.

18:28:15 mircea_popescu: hitler's block was already rejected.

18:28:19 ascii_field: why?

18:28:24 mircea_popescu: because it was from yesterday.

18:28:33 ascii_field: how does node know this?

18:28:39 ascii_field: how old is the chain on disk

18:28:46 mircea_popescu: because when hitler block shows up, the disk has a block it ends with

18:29:02 mircea_popescu: doesn't matter how old that block is. the block coming after it will be ~10 minutes later.

18:29:08 ascii_field: in order for it to be rejected. the chain on disk will have to be no more than a day behind

18:29:14 mircea_popescu: not so.

18:29:25 ascii_field: ok, say chain is a week out of date

18:29:28 mircea_popescu: lemme model this maybe i'm saying it stupidly.

18:29:30 ascii_field: on what basis is hitler's block rejected ?

18:29:41 mircea_popescu: so, pogo has on disk last block 5, bvlock timestamp 1000

18:29:44 ascii_field: the cpu clock is currently 1969 midnight

18:29:48 mircea_popescu: at real timestamp 5000 pogo starts

18:29:56 mircea_popescu: it receives block 6, with timestamp 1010. accepts it.

18:30:06 mircea_popescu: it receives alt block 6, timestamp 990. it rejects it

18:30:45 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: i can see where you're going. but it still can be sunk

18:30:58 mircea_popescu: to answer your q : hitler's block is rejected on the basis that it's too far off from the last block pogo accepted.

18:31:03 mircea_popescu: well, i suppose maybe it can, but show it to me ?

18:31:24 ascii_field: hitler uses his week while your node was in the crate to re-mine the blocks from the last place you have on disk, with minimal plausible monotonically stepping time deltas

18:31:34 ascii_field: you are now four hours, say, behind the actual earth time

18:31:37 mircea_popescu: ok. but the expense of this is staggering.

18:31:42 ascii_field: next block appears to be from the future

18:31:57 mircea_popescu: yes. the only way this attack would work is with a major chain replacement investment.

18:32:00 ascii_field: only staggering if all he has is a week

18:32:03 mircea_popescu: i daresay this is within engineering tolerance.

18:32:04 ascii_field: if he has a year ?

18:32:08 mircea_popescu: even if he has a year

18:32:18 mircea_popescu: in a year he has to replace a million btc worth of blocks.

18:32:40 ascii_field: hitler is only half of the problem here

18:32:45 ascii_field: other half is natural drift

18:32:45 mircea_popescu: go on.

18:32:55 mircea_popescu: natural drift is a problem, yes, but you reset on each block.

18:32:56 ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191154

18:32:56 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:02:31; asciilifeform: i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ?

18:33:16 mircea_popescu: it is a form of dead reckoning, yes. so bad in principle.

18:33:19 mircea_popescu: in practice, it's mediated

18:33:32 ascii_field: so now miners get to move pogo clocks around collectively.

18:33:36 mircea_popescu: ie, exactly like drummers (if you think about it, drummers are EXACTLY each guy pushing the other, sound has a speed, and it pushes ears)

18:33:38 ascii_field: as if miners were not enough of an evil

18:33:46 mircea_popescu: they are not an evil you may divorce.

18:34:05 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: the speed of the sound of the drum is negligible in comparison to the speed at which push wave propagates through a crowd

18:34:12 mircea_popescu: exactly what im saying here.

18:34:13 ascii_field: unless the crowd is in a gasenwagen and behaves like a solid

18:34:17 mircea_popescu: natural drift and alt-chain attacks have a cost.

18:34:35 ascii_field: delay is negligible, rather

18:34:37 ascii_field: not speed

18:34:38 ascii_field: lol

18:35:03 mircea_popescu: just pointing out that drums were good enough for marching and not good enough for precision bomb strike

18:35:07 mircea_popescu: just so here.

18:35:41 jurov: how is the timing attack different from normal orphans?

18:35:59 mircea_popescu: orphans are judged on sheer blockchain length

18:36:00 ascii_field: jurov: mainly in that it affects pogos and nobody else

18:36:13 jurov: pogo will eventually reorganize, and reset the time back to where the for started

18:36:19 jurov: *fork

18:36:32 mircea_popescu: ascii_field anyway, mind that pogos are not intended to be THE ONLY solution to relaying. they are just supposed to be a type of solution.

18:36:53 mircea_popescu: so yes, the rifle regiment wouldn't survive cavalry charge from the side. alrighty then, put them on a hillltop.

18:37:35 ascii_field: thing is, i can easily see these becoming 99% of the relay mass

18:37:47 mircea_popescu: maybe.

18:38:21 mircea_popescu: it's not that i don't appreciate your intellectual purity. it's merely that things must be made as correct as possible and no correcter than that.

18:38:51 ascii_field: this terrible kludge would probably go well with jurov's

18:38:56 ascii_field: alone, either is nightmarish

18:39:02 ascii_field: but together they sorta cancel out

18:39:07 mircea_popescu: the only correct solution to the problems of humanity is killing all the people.

18:39:15 mircea_popescu: we really want to stop somewhere short of this.

18:39:54 mircea_popescu: anyway, not that i'm saying this must be done or anything. but i do not think it'd be the end of the world if it has to be.

18:40:11 ascii_field: so far there appear to be just these two solutions

18:40:17 ascii_field: no one else has proposed anything like a third

18:40:33 mircea_popescu: yes, but you didn't care much for it. usb timer dongle thinger

18:40:34 ascii_field: (anything requiring the pogo keeper to have hands and brain is not a solution)

18:40:41 mircea_popescu: it has the major problem of costing more money.

18:40:45 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: may as well ship a pc then!

18:40:49 mircea_popescu: quite.

18:41:22 mircea_popescu: it is not your fault, or mine, or his, that "the time" does not come engraved in the wave fucntion you know.

18:41:25 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

18:41:34 mircea_popescu: the time is nonsense in the first place.

18:41:35 ascii_field: that this was a constraint, i warned from day 1

18:41:57 ascii_field: and i still think that dependence on political time is a serious flaw in bitcoin proper

18:42:15 jurov: also there is my doubt of finding 5000 or how many ppl that won't mind pogo trampling upon their connection and likely inviting attacks

18:42:23 mircea_popescu: ok, how about this alternative : put a special time server on the pogo itself, have the pogo sync its time from the list of approved upstream sources.

18:42:40 mircea_popescu: (same list as it takes blocks from)

18:42:44 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: you realize that is exactly how the ntp nodes with which we're ddosed work

18:43:07 mircea_popescu: yes i realise. but at least these are our evil nodes rather than obama's evil nodes.

18:43:16 mircea_popescu: look, there's only so many corners to a square box.

18:43:20 ascii_field: so now we're asking for a non-retarded complete reimplementation of ntp.

18:43:34 mircea_popescu: i blame you.

18:43:52 ascii_field: i blame retardatoshi

18:44:09 mircea_popescu: anyway. the problem of time (as you rightly observe) is a larger problem than anything bitcoin solves

18:44:19 mircea_popescu: thus, can't really blame it for the situation.

18:44:30 ascii_field: bitcoin did not have to depend on it

18:44:35 mircea_popescu: yes, it did.

18:44:47 ascii_field: what's wrong with monotonic retargeting ?

18:45:00 mircea_popescu: didja miss the line where i said you can't have a statistical sample of one ?

18:45:07 ascii_field: no need for sample

18:45:31 mircea_popescu: there is no way to distinguish between a block mined at difficulty x that came out with 9 leading zeroes and a block mined at difficulty 1 that came out randomly with that many zeroes.

18:45:38 ascii_field: say, anyone who can hash faster than strictly required to win the race, ends up pushing the target towards hardness

18:45:48 mircea_popescu: this dies.

18:45:52 ascii_field: hm?

18:46:06 mircea_popescu: this dies, because you will find a random block which is 00000000000000000000000000000f and game over.

18:46:09 mircea_popescu: can't replicate your luck.

18:46:11 ascii_field: for so long as the 'lucky strikes' can't nudge too far

18:46:13 ascii_field: it lives

18:46:14 ascii_field: no?

18:46:16 mircea_popescu: wrong you are

18:46:22 mircea_popescu: luck can come out any way it pleases.

18:46:27 ascii_field: would be interesting to model this

18:46:30 mircea_popescu: go right ahead.

18:46:42 ascii_field: it is rather reminiscent of 'there is nonzero chance for you to fall through the floor'

18:46:46 mircea_popescu: the chance to die approaches infinity much before you even get a third halving

18:47:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19998 @ 0.0005699 = 11.3969 BTC [+]

18:47:18 mircea_popescu: you're basically proposing we do a "your rent is a tenth of your income or more, forever. and you play the lottery daily."

18:47:41 mircea_popescu: what do you do two weeks after you won the lottery ?

18:47:47 mircea_popescu: win it again ? with what money ?

18:48:10 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: you've described... farming!

18:48:15 mircea_popescu: so i have.

18:48:16 ascii_field: gotta eat every day

18:48:19 mircea_popescu: farming, you will notice, died out.

18:48:22 ascii_field: crop can die, if it wants

18:48:43 mircea_popescu: moreover, this retarded version of farming is more like, "Farming done by bacteria colony. doubles every time there's food."

18:48:57 mircea_popescu: ie, african farming.

18:48:59 ascii_field: the 'double' thing is negotiable, potentially

18:49:08 ascii_field: recall, we are thinking of all possible formulations

18:49:14 mircea_popescu: not so negotiable. anyway, you DO need the sampling, and that fucks it all up

18:49:15 ascii_field: not merely the one we use now

18:49:19 mircea_popescu: even so.

18:49:49 mircea_popescu: do not let me stand in between you and greatness. but until the day you shit out that magic, it's no magic time.

18:50:22 ascii_field: not that i seriously disagree with mircea_popescu's intuition, but it is not obviously clear to me that we're speaking of a perpetuum mobile

18:50:35 ascii_field: perhaps i will need more ice cream to work through this one

18:50:41 mircea_popescu: which is why i say.

18:50:46 mircea_popescu: go, find.

18:51:23 ascii_field: i agree, this is very much a 'go, find' rather than 'sure to be found'

18:51:43 ascii_field: let's imagine, briefly, that i ~do~ find.

18:51:45 ascii_field: then?

18:51:46 mircea_popescu: back at sad farm, there's really little we can do with the bitcoin as it is, other than acquiesce to the filth of human notions of time.

18:51:53 mircea_popescu: then maybe it's time for ada.

18:53:11 ascii_field: incidentally, the answer, if it exists to be found, probably involves what fuller might've labeled 'tensegrity'

18:53:16 mircea_popescu: i am maybe not the first but definitely not the last to admit when satoshi did the dumb. nevertheless, here he did no such thing. there is no alternative known to literature, and you can't fault a man for not coming up with a novel star.

18:53:23 ascii_field: where there is a 'tug of war' among top contenders for pulling difficulty up

18:53:31 ascii_field: and nobody can get too lucky

18:53:33 mircea_popescu: that centralizes

18:53:49 mircea_popescu: because it is game theoretically advantageous to have a central scheduler.

18:54:05 ascii_field: gotta have the prisoner's dilemma come out against it

18:54:09 ascii_field: that is, for defection to be +ev

18:54:11 mircea_popescu: not that bitcoin doesn't centralize, a little. but this is criminal.

18:54:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30009 @ 0.00057011 = 17.1084 BTC [+] {2}

18:54:25 mircea_popescu: not sure that can be arranged. prolly can be made to appear it was arranged, but...

18:54:33 ascii_field: could one design a system where fucking the lizards is always +ev ?

18:54:43 mircea_popescu: no.

18:54:50 mircea_popescu: this is necessarily the case, if you think about it.

18:55:17 ascii_field: not lizard unless untouchable ?

18:55:35 mircea_popescu: depends how you define it, but there's also the problem of "you're the lizard, bob."

18:55:51 mircea_popescu: you know, when the holy paladin marches into the forest to kill the unseen devils that have been upsetting the natural order of the land

18:55:58 mircea_popescu: oinly to discover that indeed such devils do exist. him.

18:56:16 ascii_field: methinks we're at the point here where one could actually build a mathematical thing

18:56:20 ascii_field: and play with the knobs

18:56:31 mircea_popescu: i think it's prolly premature

18:56:36 mircea_popescu: but i think we eventually will.

18:58:11 ascii_field: another suggestion: vectorize the difficulty

18:58:22 ascii_field: (presently, it is a scalar; but doesn't have to be)

18:59:25 mircea_popescu: you are aware of the complexity that introduces in say an attempt at mathematical provability re the entire shenanigan ?

18:59:26 ascii_field: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/basni/20026929/902/902_320.jpg

18:59:26 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHqsGd )

18:59:33 ascii_field: ^ anyone ~not~ know this folktale ?

18:59:51 mircea_popescu: "racul, broasca si o stiuca"

18:59:56 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: actually it may very well be formalizable game-theoretically

19:00:06 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: yes!!

19:00:16 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI08e8UbRBU << there you go, ~ROMANIAN~ oldies.

19:00:17 assbot: Semnal M - Racul, broasca si o stiuca [Romanian Oldies] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHqA8K )

19:00:29 *: ascii_field wonders if it was originally a ro tale

19:00:41 ascii_field: or hell knows, visigoth

19:00:46 mircea_popescu: i think it was eastern european folklore

19:00:57 mircea_popescu: prolly yidish

19:01:10 ascii_field: has the flavour, yes

19:01:14 mircea_popescu: anyway, took down (as folklore) by one alexandru donici in the 1800s

19:03:03 ascii_field: proof of work as hilbert space...

19:03:21 mircea_popescu: you know the recourse to complexity is an academic habit.

19:03:28 ascii_field: not complexity !

19:03:38 ascii_field: what we have now - ~that~ is complexity. just unexamined kind.

19:03:45 mircea_popescu: also true.

19:04:04 ascii_field: when you ~actually~ (vs. academitard-pretend) nail something down - that is a reduction in complexity.

19:04:19 mircea_popescu: but you've not nailed something down. you just hope saint hilbert may.

19:04:20 ascii_field: can't promise this 'before next tuesday'

19:04:25 ascii_field: but the possibility is there

19:04:45 mircea_popescu: all sorts of possibilities are here, provided you don't go into geographical details

19:04:55 ascii_field: yes, possibly i triggered somebody's allergy by mentioning a maths dude

19:05:20 mircea_popescu: no, we're friends with hilbert, and i don't think it's a bad idea, either.

19:05:23 mircea_popescu: nevertheless...

19:05:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00057071 = 10.9576 BTC [+]

19:06:27 punkman: mircea_popescu: this dies, because you will find a random block which is 00000000000000000000000000000f and game over. << this is incorrect. you don't infer the target from the hash. 256bit target is included in all block headers.

19:06:46 mircea_popescu: punkman he wants to infer the target from the hash.

19:07:00 ascii_field: punkman: we were contemplating a hypothetical clockless blockchain

19:07:11 ascii_field: where miners slowly make life harder for themselves

19:07:16 ascii_field: but not too slowly, and not too quickly

19:07:24 punkman: you could very easily have monotonically increasing target

19:07:27 ascii_field: and - somehow - can't collude

19:07:35 mircea_popescu: basically he could be in government : he's decided to externalise the cost he can't bore

19:07:36 ascii_field: punkman: no good, as pointed out earlier, because finite planet

19:07:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25708 @ 0.00055537 = 14.2775 BTC [-] {2}

19:07:42 mircea_popescu: and he's picked the dumbest link to do it to

19:07:51 mircea_popescu: wash dc is washing on you alfie.

19:07:57 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: right now we have usg clock!

19:08:01 ascii_field: what could possibly be worse

19:08:04 punkman: ascii_field: well yeah that was my objection, need to be able to adjust downward

19:08:05 mircea_popescu: chinese miners.

19:08:29 mircea_popescu: you remember ? locusts ?

19:08:59 *: ascii_field feels like he took that potion from lem's 'futurological congress', which makes one realize that he had no robot servants, just leprous wretches dressed in gabage cans clanking around as 'robots'

19:09:09 ascii_field: and they aren't sweeping the house, but shitting on the carpet

19:09:19 mircea_popescu: shweeping.

19:09:23 ascii_field: aha.

19:10:09 jurov: actually, we have an usg internet, too

19:10:20 mircea_popescu: the only new thing in the world is the history you didn't know, and the only thing that's worse than what we have today

19:10:22 mircea_popescu: is what comes tomorrow.

19:10:43 decimation: I didn't realize that usg owns time now too

19:10:48 ascii_field: jurov: it is at least theoretically possible to build a non-usg network

19:10:50 decimation: can't someone in china look at the sky?

19:10:54 mircea_popescu: decimation the human idea of time, yes.

19:11:07 ascii_field: but the mystery of building a non-usg and non-usg-pushable political clock remains, afaik, a mystery

19:11:16 decimation: don't need cesium to keep time to 2hr window

19:11:29 mircea_popescu: you don't appreciate the depth of this problem

19:11:33 ascii_field: ^

19:11:43 mircea_popescu: think of time as capital, and think you're that anon president that opposed hamilton

19:12:10 mircea_popescu: and think "hey, my clock can keep time within two hours, how would those newfangled financial traders and hedge funds render me destitute on the cointinent my fathers conquered ?!?!?!"

19:12:15 decimation: adams?

19:12:19 mircea_popescu: mno.

19:12:21 mircea_popescu: jefferson.

19:12:42 jurov: "imperial time"

19:13:06 jurov: gotta revert to julian calendar?

19:13:17 mircea_popescu: precision is the problem

19:13:30 decimation: umm, okay

19:13:32 mircea_popescu: unless you discover a more precise clock, and keep it from the enemy, such that you can exploit his misclicks and take his women

19:13:36 mircea_popescu: you ain't got nottin.

19:13:55 decimation: well, if you only used the sun and the rotation of the earth, you would be ~60 seconds of utc (starting around 1960)

19:13:57 mircea_popescu: it is not coincidental that "finance" reduced to hft.

19:14:06 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

19:14:09 ascii_field: https://blog.8thlight.com/rylan-dirksen/2013/10/04/synchronization-in-a-distributed-system.html << obligatory

19:14:10 assbot: Synchronization in a Distributed System | 8th Light ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHrSjS )

19:14:25 ascii_field: ^ state of the art for p2p ~ordering of events~ - rather than absolute time

19:14:29 decimation: are we worrying about relativistic bitcoin?

19:14:40 mircea_popescu: ordering has jack shit to do with timekeeping

19:14:46 mircea_popescu: i dunno why people keep mushin them together

19:14:51 mircea_popescu: they're like sleeping and fucking

19:14:54 punkman: blockchain doesn't order events based on time

19:14:57 mircea_popescu: "oh, happens in bed" "really ? fuck you."

19:15:00 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: almost all timekeeping is really for ordering!

19:15:03 ascii_field: including in bitcoin

19:15:07 mircea_popescu: doesn't matter!

19:15:54 jurov: why? in hft order doesn't matter?

19:16:00 mircea_popescu: punkman it actually DOES order events to some degree based on time.

19:16:06 mircea_popescu: hence rejected blocks from the future.

19:16:13 ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191733 << the machine tried to keep folks from 'rewriting history'

19:16:13 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 19:14:54; punkman: blockchain doesn't order events based on time

19:16:21 mircea_popescu: jurov the way you use the cow's teat is not the alpha and omega of what the cow teat is.

19:16:22 ascii_field: sorta the whole point

19:16:46 ascii_field: lamport's achievement was to abstract out some of the attributes of timekeeping we actually ~need~

19:16:55 mircea_popescu: sure. but this does not reflect on timekeeping

19:16:58 mircea_popescu: it reflects on us.

19:16:58 ascii_field: aha

19:17:17 punkman: I don't see how lamport clock would help

19:17:23 mircea_popescu: it wouldn't.

19:17:28 ascii_field: not that virtually no one ~actually cares how many seconds it's been since midnight jan 1 1969~

19:17:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69700 @ 0.00057153 = 39.8356 BTC [+] {3}

19:17:54 mircea_popescu: ascii_field they don't care now in the manner they don't care about how well oiled their rifle is.

19:18:02 mircea_popescu: once it comes to it, they care or they go away.

19:18:04 ascii_field: just that 'oiled enough'

19:18:59 mircea_popescu: like the housewives, you know, "oph, i don;t care about the crisis, my husband does all that money stuff" "orly ? shut up and sit down, goose."

19:19:43 ascii_field: evidently i failed to make the minor point here

19:19:49 BingoBoingo: <ascii_field> so now we're asking for a non-retarded complete reimplementation of ntp. << reimplemented, can't guarentee not retarded in its own way

19:19:52 ascii_field: the 1969 thing is an arbitrary aspect of the mechanism

19:20:03 ascii_field: rather than the essential

19:20:06 mircea_popescu: well sure.

19:20:22 decimation: ascii_field: you seem to imply that you need to run ntp daemon to use ntp

19:20:30 mircea_popescu: to TRUST ntp

19:20:32 ascii_field: decimation: it is well known that you don't

19:20:39 ascii_field: can ask for time once, yes

19:20:41 ascii_field: but from whom?

19:20:44 decimation: exactly

19:20:47 ascii_field: and if you don't hear an answer ?

19:21:01 ascii_field: and how do you know the answer did not come from satanic isp ?

19:21:12 decimation: well, there is such a thing as signed ntp

19:21:18 decimation: I'm not sure how simple it would be to implement

19:21:21 ascii_field: now hitler controls your box

19:21:22 mircea_popescu: you know how satoshi would have solved this problem, rigth ?

19:21:34 decimation: don't need to only rely on the ntp reply

19:21:35 ascii_field: we already know how he solved it

19:21:38 mircea_popescu: nono.

19:21:41 ascii_field: by asking winblows for the time.

19:21:46 decimation: it can be hyptothetical until blocks start rolling in

19:21:47 mircea_popescu: hardcode http://whattimeitis.com in the cpp

19:21:49 assbot: Coming Events In Bible Prophecy ... ( http://bit.ly/1J2Lpah )

19:21:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15195 @ 0.00057196 = 8.6909 BTC [+] {2}

19:21:58 ascii_field: see, i almost guessed.

19:22:05 decimation: hitler cannot change the clock on the pogo

19:22:15 decimation: pogo can record times he observes new blocks since boot

19:22:17 ascii_field: he can if it treats his signet as ultimate authority

19:22:46 decimation: doesn't need to, treats as man on the street

19:22:51 mircea_popescu: in other news i am pleased to inform the general public that my pyromania is progressing nicely.

19:22:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33605 @ 0.00057273 = 19.2466 BTC [+] {2}

19:23:52 ascii_field: hm?

19:25:34 mircea_popescu: listen, can't the thing ask the local isp for time ?

19:25:44 decimation: hitler controls time and your isp

19:25:59 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: ???!!!?????

19:26:20 ascii_field: there is no widespread custom of isp running a time server

19:26:25 mircea_popescu: really ?

19:26:28 ascii_field: certainly not on this side of the ocean

19:26:36 mircea_popescu: they run dns but not time ?

19:26:40 ascii_field: aha

19:26:47 mircea_popescu: logical.

19:26:50 ascii_field: conceivably, ~somewhere~ they do

19:26:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00055558 = 6.9448 BTC [-]

19:27:12 mircea_popescu: last i looked into it my isp actually fed you time, on special port.

19:27:25 ascii_field: ntp is low-enough traffic that most of the planet asks usg more or less directly

19:27:25 mircea_popescu: off of their own atomic clock no less

19:27:31 ascii_field: and comically, without authentication of any kind

19:27:36 mircea_popescu: (also telco and radio provider etc)

19:27:54 ascii_field: anyone recall old thread about banks getting time from gps antennae ?

19:27:55 decimation: mircea_popescu: all of those could be forged by hitler

19:28:01 ascii_field: (also without authentication)

19:28:10 ascii_field: don't even need hitler there. just a kid with an sdr card

19:28:11 mircea_popescu: decimation intranet ? notrly.

19:28:32 mircea_popescu: are you being parodic ?

19:28:49 ascii_field: the banks thing really happens

19:28:54 decimation: I'm telling you things I"ve been told

19:29:15 ascii_field: someone, iirc, discovered that you could move the clock on most 'atm' machines this way

19:29:26 decimation: nobody has told me why I can't observe the position of the sun in the sky, use today's date, and reduce the time

19:29:36 decimation: then setup an ntp server

19:29:59 ascii_field: decimation: you can do this, and sign the result with your gossipd key, etc. sure

19:30:02 mircea_popescu: decimation what i said was that if you use usg-supplied cutouts for that reduction, you're just doing a roundabout ntp call. might as well ask directly

19:30:04 ascii_field: but this does not exist today.

19:30:13 ascii_field: and if it did, hitler could simply delay the packet

19:30:20 ascii_field: realize that we are talking about ~time~

19:30:31 decimation: as in, a printed table?

19:30:33 ascii_field: mitm can make the answer 1) verify sig correctly 2) be arbitrarily wrong

19:30:36 decimation: what usg cutouts?

19:30:55 mircea_popescu: how do you get the calibration data ?

19:31:45 decimation: there exist astronomy libraries like http://www.hs.uni-hamburg.de/DE/Ins/Per/Czesla/PyA/PyA/pyaslDoc/pyasl.html that could be used to make such tables

19:31:46 assbot: Python AstroLib — PyAstronomy 0.8.1 documentation ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHtgDe )

19:31:55 mircea_popescu: for your locale ?

19:32:06 decimation: absolutely

19:32:11 mircea_popescu: i do not dispute they exist. what i said, again, was that if you use a nist table you're basically querying ntp.

19:32:27 ascii_field: ^^

19:32:29 decimation: well, yes, but the math is not very difficult to verify

19:32:34 mircea_popescu: yes, it is :)

19:32:42 mircea_popescu: because you need a clock.

19:32:43 ascii_field: verify against ~what~ ?

19:32:47 mircea_popescu: lol

19:32:49 decimation: occultations

19:32:52 ascii_field: realize that earth time is a political fiction

19:33:05 mircea_popescu: well, a convention, but anyway.

19:33:14 ascii_field: think of it this way

19:33:17 decimation: a political fiction that for the time being is tied to observable astronomic phenomenon

19:33:21 ascii_field: decimation measures the time, by observing a pulsar

19:33:29 ascii_field: (one of the most accurate timebases found in nature)

19:33:29 mircea_popescu: there's no "truthful" means to breach a convention by getting the REAL reality of it. just like you can't deduce a girl out of her panties.

19:33:37 ascii_field: but now he wants to ~tell mircea_popescu the time~

19:33:41 mircea_popescu: decimation it's "tied" in a conventional manner.

19:33:44 ascii_field: i.e. how many counts since last time mircea_popescu asked

19:33:51 ascii_field: and this is where the boojum comes in!

19:33:57 ascii_field: they are a continent apart

19:34:00 ascii_field: between, are devils

19:34:08 mircea_popescu: nah, they left.

19:34:09 ascii_field: who can delay the messages at will

19:34:14 ascii_field: l0l

19:34:24 mircea_popescu: so are we putting a pulsar on the pogo usb or what.

19:34:36 mircea_popescu: can be a small one off amazon.

19:34:37 ascii_field: trying to illustrate the notion of 'political time' here

19:35:15 decimation: I can tell him that a mutually observable passing of mercury in front of a star will be at 6pm

19:35:32 decimation: (assuming same hemisphere roughly)

19:35:37 ascii_field: then it rains

19:35:42 ascii_field: and one or both of you miss it.

19:35:43 ascii_field: then waht

19:35:51 mircea_popescu: he has a point, he ~can~ sync like that, but only provided he actually did the measurements as to which star himself.

19:35:52 decimation: use hitler's time until it can be verified

19:36:27 ascii_field: why not use it every day then

19:36:48 ascii_field: whole problem with bitcoin is that hitler can induce permanent damage by playing with the clock on rare occasions and in localized ways

19:37:01 decimation: not if you only ntp once

19:37:10 ascii_field: on powerup

19:37:12 decimation: yep

19:37:17 mircea_popescu: if only once were a thing.

19:37:18 ascii_field: then hitler knows exactly when to fuck with ntp!

19:37:26 ascii_field: when a city loses power

19:37:35 decimation: and then ditch hitler's time once you have synced with block chain and can use its timestamps

19:37:41 ascii_field: as mircea_popescu points out, 'once' is a many-time thing here

19:37:45 decimation: relative to your pogo's clock

19:37:59 ascii_field: decimation: i discussed the problem with letting blockchain affect the time, earlier

19:38:04 mircea_popescu: ascii_field you still don't like my, "-time=blabla" in start-up call ?

19:38:13 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: it is inapplicable for pogo

19:38:25 jurov: i propose to wire electrodes up on the pogo chassis and synchronize time using chosen woman's periods

19:38:32 decimation: lulz

19:38:33 ascii_field: ^^^ winner

19:38:49 ascii_field: except, make pogo go in

19:38:54 mircea_popescu: fertility THAT bad in slovakia ?

19:41:37 ascii_field: l0l

19:42:07 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191138 << you can't actually mislead anyone

19:42:07 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 14:50:38; asciilifeform: drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others

19:42:10 mircea_popescu: you can't rewrite the blocks.

19:42:23 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: we were discussion a variant where nodes ask one another

19:42:45 ascii_field: the one where blocks - sure

19:42:51 mircea_popescu: i thought from your prev line you weren't but anywa

19:42:58 ascii_field: iirc decimation suggested one

19:43:50 ascii_field: but yes, if using block timestamps, pogos can only be mislead, cannot mislead others (unless some fool were to mine via 'getwork'-ing a pogo!)

19:44:08 trinque: http://www.lindy-usa.com/usb-precision-clock-20984.html << "This item has been discontinued."

19:44:09 assbot: USB Precision Clock ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHuaj1 )

19:44:09 trinque: :(

19:44:22 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

19:44:23 *: trinque was born just after everything cool was discontinued

19:44:30 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191187 << use them in various attacks he means

19:44:30 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:10:23; jurov: if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution

19:44:32 ascii_field: trinque: not only discontinued, but costs like 4+ pogos !!!

19:44:43 trinque: oh bah

19:44:46 mircea_popescu: i don't feel too good about asking people who trust me to put a box on the net that's open to flooding people.

19:44:47 trinque: the cost is not prohibitive

19:44:48 ascii_field: plus shipping.

19:44:54 trinque: how poor are people?

19:44:59 trinque: spend more on a heavy night drinking

19:45:03 ascii_field: trinque: please understand, for this cost you can ship a pc!

19:45:07 mircea_popescu: ascii_field that foolk is not so much of a fool

19:45:08 ascii_field: no need for pogo then!

19:45:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00056712 = 3.1759 BTC [+]

19:45:20 mircea_popescu: i was entertaining delusions of pogos being used as net propo for small home miners.

19:45:22 trinque: sure but then no sweet usb radio clock

19:45:29 ascii_field: trinque: the entire point is to use THE $20 BOX WE HAVE

19:45:35 trinque: fine fine

19:45:45 ascii_field: without turning it into a shittier version of the $150 box phoundation et al have

19:45:48 ascii_field: that any idiot can have

19:45:56 mircea_popescu: that also doesn't keep time./

19:46:11 ascii_field: pretty sure theirs has rtc

19:46:20 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191193 << me lol.

19:46:20 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:12:23; asciilifeform: who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ?

19:46:21 ascii_field: the 100 usd 'pc engines' board i mentioned a few weeks ago does.

19:46:27 jurov: i did not mean for pogo to promiscuously accept or even emit ntp packets!

19:46:33 mircea_popescu: what, you think 1k is a barrier ? 1mn is a barriere. maybe. 1k is not a barrier.

19:47:03 ascii_field: did not say 'barrier', necessarily, but it does raise the number of bots required

19:47:09 decimation: I guess I percieve the reliance on an ntp server for time as being a much smaller attack surface than relying on operating bitcoind nodes for sync

19:47:12 mircea_popescu: jurov i think there is at least one attack where lamer is made to think victim is ntp server

19:47:32 jurov: yes but that does not depend on victim

19:47:40 ascii_field: the basic, irrecoverable problem with ntp is that one can 'amplify'

19:47:45 ascii_field: that is, forge a request for the time

19:47:58 ascii_field: and get more bits back (to victim, that is) than you had to send.

19:48:32 jurov: you mean , pogo issues ntp requests, get million packets within seconds?

19:48:53 mircea_popescu: jurov i mean, pogo asks for ntp time, malicious server sayus "ask a.b.c.d" pogo asks.

19:48:54 ascii_field: jurov: worse. it'll be among those ~sending~ the replies

19:48:57 mircea_popescu: one thousand pogos ask.

19:49:08 decimation: ascii_field: it's trival to stop that

19:49:12 ascii_field: ntp is retarded fractally, on every scale

19:49:27 ascii_field: decimation: and when new bug is discovered? then?

19:49:27 decimation: and once again, you are talking about the daemon

19:49:36 mircea_popescu: i;m not a great fan either ; nevertheless i suspect it is a marginally better solution than the current best which is "just taker block".

19:49:38 jurov: NOT a daemon

19:49:45 ascii_field: decimation: the variant where it asks on powerup is also retarded

19:49:52 jurov: just a ting that issues one packet, receives one and shuts itself

19:49:54 mircea_popescu: for one thing : it costs us 20k to deploy 1k of these. i doubt hitler wants to ruin his ntp for 20k

19:49:55 ascii_field: because it will happily accept any answer

19:50:22 decimation: mircea_popescu: not to mention also ruin $1000000k commerce in the process

19:50:31 ascii_field: ntp from random selection among 1,000 ip (not dns, but ip) ntp nodes, PLUS sanity check using blockchain, could be a practical answer.

19:50:31 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191237 << lmao get out.

19:50:31 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:22:37; asciilifeform: and work without invoking dns

19:50:41 ascii_field: fuck dns

19:50:46 ascii_field: i don't want dns in there. anywhere.

19:50:47 mircea_popescu: you can't have ntp without windows solitaire, what world do you live on

19:50:57 mircea_popescu: DEPENDENCIES

19:51:04 decimation: all you are doing is asking some shlub for the time

19:51:05 ascii_field: pour gasoline on them.

19:51:17 decimation: ask 10 randomly, and if they all give nonsense then you are fucked

19:51:29 decimation: might as well buy a telescope and start with your navigation tables

19:51:35 mircea_popescu: decimation naaah, average it out

19:51:36 ascii_field: decimation: the idea is that they will all agree, because you're actually taking to room 101 at your isp

19:51:41 mircea_popescu: that's how france kept time up until 1990

19:51:41 ascii_field: and not any ntp servers at all

19:52:01 decimation: well, it's a separate question about signed ntp requests

19:52:04 decimation: which addresses that issue

19:52:15 decimation: now hitler must pwn random boxes unknown to him beforehand

19:52:18 ascii_field: the only folks willing to sign ntp (for a fee!) is us navy

19:52:36 ascii_field: decimation: he does not need to pwn random boxes! only intercept ntp on your line.

19:52:38 jurov: if that, you will actually talk to one bitcoind at isp, too

19:52:41 jurov: what now?

19:52:46 decimation: ^ exactly

19:52:48 ascii_field: jurov: this is harder because proof-of-wortk

19:52:50 decimation: feeds your pogo bullshit too

19:53:08 ascii_field: a faux blockchain is considerably more of an undertaking to arrange

19:53:09 decimation: not if it controls everything, can make up bullshit chain with 0 difficult

19:53:29 ascii_field: decimation: is it not obvious that this is far easier to detect via mechanical means ?

19:53:34 jurov: it's certainly more attractive to isp than mucking with ntp

19:53:35 mircea_popescu: so ntp is actually emerging towards consensus here ? over alf's dead body /

19:53:40 mircea_popescu: mod6 you there ?

19:53:43 decimation: easier than noting wallclock time?

19:53:50 ascii_field: hell, folks in here were ringing the alarm on account of empty blocks

19:53:53 ascii_field: before ph0rk was apparent

19:53:59 mod6: yeah. haven't been able to follow for the last 45 minutes though.

19:54:00 decimation: I was yes

19:54:05 *: mod6 reads scrollback

19:54:23 decimation: maybe I should start watching venus too

19:54:47 ascii_field: realize, i don't have a better solution than ntp. but it has to be done sanely (no dns; builds under musl or uclibc; doesn't introduce more than a few dozen lines of code; and picks from $bigint ip on powerup; and sanity-checked from blockchain )

19:54:58 mircea_popescu: dozen ?

19:55:01 mircea_popescu: aahahahahaha

19:55:03 ascii_field: see jurov's link

19:55:14 mircea_popescu: no i really wish to see this

19:55:17 jurov: parsing ntp reply doesn't need lots of code

19:55:21 ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191239

19:55:21 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:25:42; jurov: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10757575/how-to-write-a-ntp-client

19:55:26 ascii_field: ^ example

19:55:36 *: trinque mutters about there being low-frequency radio time signals passing through his body this moment, and cannot find a single distributor for a sane, cheap usb receiver

19:55:42 trinque: the fucking world we live in

19:55:52 decimation: trinque: I've tried too

19:55:58 ascii_field: trinque: gps has timebase. but any moron can fool it

19:56:01 decimation: came to the conclusion that must do self

19:56:01 ascii_field: with stronger signal

19:56:11 mircea_popescu: actually that's not so horrible as i thought.

19:56:12 mircea_popescu: what's #include <arpa/inet.h> ?

19:56:16 decimation: ru, us, others alll broadcast multiple signals

19:56:23 decimation: that's a standard socket header

19:56:30 ascii_field: decimation: yes, and the kid across the street has the strongest signal

19:56:32 ascii_field: if he wants to

19:56:34 ascii_field: for us, ru, cn

19:56:45 mod6: as dumb as it sounds, i thought about ICMP 13 (dispite it being often fw'd) and checking TS against default route.

19:57:01 mircea_popescu: how;s that get you time ?

19:57:17 mod6: it returns a timestamp

19:57:39 ascii_field: not all isp will even let through icmp, no ?

19:57:50 mod6: (often fw'd)

19:57:55 decimation: nobody runs standard unix services anymore

19:58:05 decimation: like finger or chargen

19:58:05 mod6: but... if it's behind a NAT< then you can control the default route

19:58:07 ascii_field: seems like a sure way to end up with wild numbers

19:58:18 mod6: maybe you set your router to respond to this? i dunno. was a passing thought.

19:58:48 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191281 << actually was on fraudsters. http://fraudsters.com/2015/so-i-found-the-libertard-motherlode/

19:58:48 assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 16:20:56; mats: loled

19:58:49 assbot: So I found the libertard motherlode on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjpCCB )

19:59:24 mircea_popescu: mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp"

19:59:34 mircea_popescu: in the best case you end up with a ntp pt

19:59:49 ascii_field: mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo

20:00:12 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp" << yeah.

20:00:13 ascii_field: may as well ask him (her!) to set up a gentoo

20:00:21 mircea_popescu: o wait, that was a DIFFERENT liberal professor bitching abotu the hell of their own making

20:00:23 mircea_popescu: my bad mats

20:00:46 mod6: <+ascii_field> mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo << yeah was reading what you guys were saying. basically why I didn't bring it up. too hard for mom & pop.

20:01:05 ascii_field: bad enough that this thing will need upnp

20:01:14 ascii_field: and will fail to be externally reachable at all a good chunk of the time

20:01:17 decimation: 'this system where we take turns accusing each other of being an enemy of the revolution can come around to bite me!'

20:01:36 shinohai: @ mircea_popescu I *think* I sent an email correctly in order to purchase some fraudsters credits

20:02:07 mircea_popescu: shinohai didja pay ?

20:02:36 mircea_popescu: decimation that's ok, we have a good sense of humour about it.

20:02:37 mircea_popescu: yet.

20:02:47 shinohai: Was waiting on a reply email. I filled out form but was unsure if it was accepted.

20:03:04 mircea_popescu: not liable to get anything unless you pay.

20:03:24 mircea_popescu: (why would you, there's no indication it's your email)

20:03:35 ascii_field: 'when the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs' (tm) (r)

20:04:23 shinohai: I misunderstand then. I thought an address for deposit is emailed to you.

20:04:58 *: mircea_popescu looks at this thing

20:05:03 mircea_popescu: it's been in place for so long i forgot

20:05:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.16325969 = 1.6326 BTC [-]

20:06:23 jurov: folks. "hackedteam" leak is 99% downloaded, but i don't really have a place to publicly host it

20:06:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47151 @ 0.00056758 = 26.762 BTC [+] {2}

20:06:36 ascii_field: mircea_popescu ^ ?

20:06:43 jurov: if i'm to put it on s3, only private

20:06:53 ascii_field: not a bad test of how 'bulletproof' mircea_popescu's new fleet of boxes is ?

20:06:55 mircea_popescu: shinohai well yeah, you put your email in there, get an email with address. didja ?

20:07:08 mircea_popescu: jurov feel free to put it on your binaries acct.

20:07:16 ascii_field: perhaps untar it first

20:07:18 ascii_field: so it's browsable

20:07:22 mircea_popescu: ^

20:07:26 jurov: it's untarred

20:07:31 ascii_field: not everybody wants the whole ball of shit

20:07:33 mircea_popescu: please DO untar it either first or there before publishing

20:07:40 jurov: it comes untarred, i mean

20:07:45 ascii_field: ah

20:08:04 mircea_popescu: aite.

20:08:29 mircea_popescu: jurov let me know when it's uploaded so i can mirror it.

20:08:45 jurov: yea, eta 20hours

20:08:53 mircea_popescu: lolk

20:09:15 *: mircea_popescu will put it online under fraudsters/uploads

20:09:39 ascii_field: neato!

20:10:45 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/4b6af150ffaa49ba706d7e0acec667c0/tumblr_n84guwKh6K1t1cjcho1_1280.jpg

20:10:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjroDX )

20:11:10 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: where was your article with the boy, gurl, two frag grenades, and a length of twine ?

20:11:21 mircea_popescu: haha hmmm

20:11:23 ascii_field: the vectorized difficulty thing made me recall it

20:11:41 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2013/the-twu-luv-torture/

20:11:42 assbot: The twu luv torture on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tjrv2m )

20:11:46 ascii_field: aha!

20:11:49 ascii_field: ty mircea_popescu

20:12:02 shinohai: I love sdf.org, but damn their mail server is so slow.

20:12:09 jurov: just check there's 400G free and 190k inodes

20:12:31 jurov: mircea_popescu: ^

20:12:57 *: mircea_popescu checks

20:14:05 mod6: I'm currently a bit distracted. I'll re-read all of this discussion on my way back and think about it.

20:14:11 mircea_popescu: inodes 58M iused 374K ifree 58M

20:14:15 shinohai: Todays crypto financial genius award goes to: http://redd.it/3cfd05

20:14:17 assbot: I took a loan at 25% on prosper and put it on ltc - panic attack from the price going down : litecoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHx47D )

20:14:50 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

20:14:59 ascii_field: wtf is 'prosper'

20:15:08 mircea_popescu: don't ask and you won't have to find out.

20:15:26 shinohai: https://www.prosper.com/

20:15:27 assbot: Prosper | Home ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHx8UL )

20:15:31 mircea_popescu: "wtf is citizen dentistry ?" "really ?"

20:15:52 *: ascii_field true to form, is sorry he found out

20:16:32 mircea_popescu: anyway, ima go play my game.

20:16:39 mircea_popescu: yallz are missing out!

20:16:48 jurov: mircea_popescu: you need to do sth with the inodes

20:16:51 mircea_popescu: o first

20:16:52 *: shinohai never could get into gaming

20:16:53 mircea_popescu: jurov hm ?

20:17:02 jurov: oh, it has 58M inodes? okay then

20:17:03 mircea_popescu: jurov you making me the irc game client ?

20:17:10 jurov: yes.

20:17:13 mircea_popescu: yay.

20:17:16 jurov: for 2BTC

20:17:21 mircea_popescu: hm.

20:17:29 mircea_popescu: is it actually going to work ?

20:17:50 mircea_popescu: are you providing a "mp satisfaction guarantee" with it ?

20:17:50 jurov: well, you pay after

20:17:59 mircea_popescu: then it's a deal.

20:18:11 jurov: maybe i'll catch aneurysm from that cpp turd first

20:18:27 mircea_popescu: i see it likely

20:18:29 ascii_field: wai wat

20:18:35 mircea_popescu: (pro tip : it doesn't handle pasting atm har har.)

20:18:36 ascii_field: was this an open rfc ?

20:18:44 mircea_popescu: ascii_field i just asked him yest.

20:18:51 jurov: yes. you don't read fraudsters?

20:18:52 ascii_field: ah just for jurov then

20:19:08 mircea_popescu: ascii_field i don't want you to be doingm it, you do useful things with your time

20:19:14 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: fair

20:19:15 mircea_popescu: like being unreasonable with the pogos

20:19:23 ascii_field: though i'll probably end up with the bounty for the callgraph

20:19:25 ascii_field: if anyone does

20:19:39 ascii_field: because no one seems to be giving a flying fuck

20:19:45 jurov: and btw, there's 0.5BTC bounty for eulora on mac.

20:19:47 ascii_field: and that thing needs to happen

20:19:53 trinque: ascii_field: I spent a good part of last evening working on it

20:19:56 trinque: tools are all dogshit

20:19:58 trinque: https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3073/2767638386_d8efc6fb1f.jpg

20:19:58 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjsD5W )

20:19:59 ascii_field: trinque: yes, i recall

20:20:05 jurov: be quick before it gets on my nerves and i'll get some apple machine

20:20:08 mircea_popescu: ascii_field i think a few people are trying, but yes, as trinque says

20:20:16 ascii_field: there is no tool to work with, afaik

20:20:18 mircea_popescu: nobody realises they live in a house of shit until they try to go out the door

20:20:37 *: shinohai > mfw there is no cloud, only someone else's computer ...

20:20:46 BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2015/07/chain-fork-reveals-bip-process-broken/#comment-30536

20:20:47 assbot: Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjsJuf )

20:20:50 ascii_field: the chart needs to account for literally 100% of the src lines

20:20:58 ascii_field: and, conversely, contain nothing extraneous

20:21:03 mircea_popescu: careful shinohai next you'll buy into the cult koolaid that milk doesn't come from supermarket

20:21:07 mircea_popescu: and then where'll you be

20:21:27 shinohai: Then I'll have to buy a cow. Or marry one.

20:21:44 shinohai: I'm close to the state of Alabama, shouldn't be hard.

20:22:19 ascii_field: BingoBoingo: surprised it took so long for the shitgang to start rolling out obfuscatory smoke ?

20:22:34 ascii_field: 'it wasn't us, because we're the core devs, and ergo it wasn't us, fuck you'

20:22:34 jurov: mircea_popescu: owait, the task includes copy/paste from/to eulora?

20:22:41 BingoBoingo: ascii_field: Well, gavin stopped. I guess now they roll on to the next one.

20:22:49 ascii_field: wai wut

20:22:51 ascii_field: stopped what

20:23:00 BingoBoingo: ascii_field: Stopped commenting on qntra

20:23:12 ascii_field: ah

20:24:16 BingoBoingo: "

20:24:16 BingoBoingo: Obviously something went wrong, but blaming the process, or Bitcoin Core's implementation is disingenious. Neither was this caused by wide use of old software, because old software would simply keep producing v2 blocks, so the change would never have triggered." << Ergo these new multi-block forks aren't happening

20:24:44 ascii_field: gotta love the philippinos

20:25:00 ascii_field: can crap out four paragraphs of acceptable english, adding up to nothing at all

20:25:41 mircea_popescu: jurov how am i going to speak here if i can't paste the assbot text ?

20:25:50 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo http://qntra.net/2015/07/chain-fork-reveals-bip-process-broken/#comment-30584

20:25:51 assbot: Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tjt7ZY )

20:27:16 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i assume that's laanwj

20:27:33 BingoBoingo: Well, he didn't sign the comment

20:27:52 mircea_popescu: hence assume.

20:28:08 mircea_popescu: because why sign things when you're "in crypto". he's an expert at counting fucking goats

20:28:23 ascii_field: voats

20:28:42 mircea_popescu: "what shall we fuck today ?" "nine"

20:29:03 *: ascii_field has taken to pronouncing 'goat', 'voat', with accent on syllables, as in 'coax' cabl

20:42:52 pete_dushenski: https://blockchain.info/tx/bb41a757f405890fb0f5856228e23b715702d714d59bf2b1feb70d8b2b4e3e08 << 999,657 byte transaction with 9 confirmations.

20:43:51 trinque: blockchain wont load on this end

20:43:56 trinque: .info that is

20:44:09 trinque: ah there it went

20:44:29 trinque: "Warning! this transaction is a double spend. You should be extremely careful when trusting any transactions to/from this sender."

20:46:23 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

20:46:29 ascii_field: http://gsg-elektronik.de/?id=92

20:46:30 assbot: GSG-Elektronik - Seagate Dockstar RTC-MOD ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrcFL )

20:46:43 ascii_field: ^ adding the missing rtc crystal & power source to 'dockstart', machine using same chipset as pogo

20:46:51 ascii_field: not practical for 5,000

20:46:56 ascii_field: unless someone has a stable of slaves

20:47:10 ascii_field: http://archlinuxarm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=258&start=10 << english, better photos

20:47:11 assbot: Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Dockstar Pinout SDHC Card and I2C ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrhta )

20:48:00 pete_dushenski: 'double spend' block is crazy close to 1,000,000 byte over-under here : https://bitbet.us/bet/1093/bitcoin-main-net-block-size-to-increase-in/

20:48:00 assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 3.84 B (13%) on Yes, 25.68 B (87%) on No | closing in 4 months 1 week| weight: 41`573 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrrAF )

20:51:11 ascii_field: http://www.plugcomputer.org/405/us/plug-basic/documentation/Plug-DevKit-Reference-Design-Rev1.1.pdf << incidentally, this is the reference design on which 'pogo' is based

20:51:13 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrVa1 )

20:51:13 danielpbarron: !up flabkebab

20:51:22 ascii_field: complete schematics and pedantically agonizing docs

20:51:35 ascii_field: or nm, not complete

20:51:48 *: ascii_field is quite certain he saw the whole thing somewhere !

20:53:26 ascii_field: http://www.plugcomputer.org/405/us/plug-basic/documentation/Plug-6.0.1-Schematic.pdf << it

20:53:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1flsbFP )

20:53:37 danielpbarron: pete_dushenski, guy paid 0 fees to make that thing

20:54:38 pete_dushenski: lol ya i guess so eh

20:54:52 pete_dushenski: 12 confs on it too

20:55:40 trinque: the system works?

20:55:54 trinque: or was that not what the "stress testers" were trying to demonstrate

20:56:15 ascii_field: http://www.plugcomputer.org/405/us/plug-basic/documentation/Plug-PowerPlug-V1.3.pdf << another version

20:56:18 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1eDB5gV )

20:56:35 danielpbarron: the outputs must be old enough to not set off spam filters or whatever

20:56:44 danielpbarron: or the guy knows an actual miner

20:58:42 danielpbarron: i like how the block-filling transaction cost nothing, meanwhile redditards are flipping out that they would have to pay 0.0002 if they actually had bitcoin to spend

20:59:49 BingoBoingo: !b 3

20:59:49 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/21VCJX6.txt )

21:00:22 pete_dushenski: https://admin.govexec.com/media/gbc/docs/pdfs_edit/price_scheme_2015q3.pdf << 40k euros for 'hacking team' to implant agent to track opponent's bitcoin transactions

21:00:28 pete_dushenski: not cheap !

21:00:34 pete_dushenski: (sorry about pdfturd)

21:00:56 trinque: danielpbarron: my point exactly; bitcoin's own fee mechanism defends against this bullshit

21:01:36 trinque: if someone really wants to "spam" let him pay the fees sufficient to do so, and he can keep that up for as many blocks as he likes, bidding against every other person who wants in the block

21:02:02 trinque: I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate

21:02:54 trinque: 'cept that when the best platform for capitalism ever devised appears, fucktards still think markets wont work within it

21:03:13 ascii_field: trinque: it is abundantly clear what they are trying to do

21:03:18 BingoBoingo: stress test demonstrates 1MB is plenty big to allow for periodic spam attacks, and bigger blocks would make bloat attacks still cheaper

21:03:31 ascii_field: it being, price themselves out of tx, and then clamour for 'deeeeemooocracy'

21:03:50 ascii_field: the bloat attack is deliberat

21:03:55 trinque: of course it is

21:03:56 pete_dushenski: or make nodes drop off network

21:04:00 trinque: yet I can still get transactions through just fine

21:04:13 trinque: with a pittance of a fee

21:04:14 ascii_field: it also has the purpose of trying to thin the node herd

21:04:19 ascii_field: and push more fools onto 'spv'

21:04:28 ascii_field: for ease of usgification

21:04:56 trinque: sort mempool by fee and fuck the poor?

21:05:13 ascii_field: i still can't fathom why this wasn't sop from day 1.

21:05:42 flabkebab: hello

21:06:05 trinque: flabkebab: good afternoon

21:06:18 pete_dushenski: ascii_field took time for the drones to be lined up, meetings to be had, coffee to be drunk, etc.

21:06:33 danielpbarron: i have not noticed the "network test" except that my actual full nodes sometimes differ by (sometimes rarely) as much as a few dozen blocks before eventually settling in on the true height. My transaction sending has been uneffected.

21:06:35 pete_dushenski: it's not like bureaucracy, y'know, works or anything

21:07:32 flabkebab: So I've been having a go at the callgraph thing

21:09:14 danielpbarron: !up flabkebab_

21:10:01 flabkebab_: thanks, xchat crashed

21:10:12 flabkebab_: so here is the mess I have so far: http://46.101.49.39/graph.svg

21:10:13 assbot: G ... ( http://bit.ly/1eDDLvf )

21:10:14 ascii_field: flabkebab_: so you got a callgraph ?

21:10:22 *: ascii_field looks

21:10:43 trinque: looks better than my rat-king

21:10:59 ascii_field: that still doesn't look like ~all~ the unique symbols in the tree

21:11:10 ascii_field: not to mention that it is unreadable

21:11:38 ascii_field: my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four

21:11:49 trinque: lol

21:11:54 ascii_field: not interested in balls of yarn

21:12:03 trinque: ascii_field: it's gonna take something where you can grab a node and have it trace only that one

21:12:14 ascii_field: trinque: we have this already!!!!

21:12:14 ascii_field: lxr

21:12:16 trinque: I was using "gephi" for this

21:12:18 ascii_field: i DON'T WANT that

21:12:22 trinque: no

21:12:24 ascii_field: want a fucking WALL POSTER

21:12:27 trinque: I mean an interface to the dot

21:12:33 trinque: yeah well the call graph itself is tangled

21:12:37 flabkebab_: hmm

21:12:39 trinque: can probably not be untangled in 2d

21:12:48 ascii_field: this one doesn't look like it even tried

21:12:56 flabkebab_: I also tried something less... ball-yarny

21:13:06 flabkebab_: Edges too close together and was also unreadbale

21:13:06 trinque: gephi will shake the graph out for ya with various plugins

21:13:13 flabkebab_: *unreadable

21:13:14 trinque: can change attraction params on a node, so on

21:13:18 trinque: still looked like shi

21:13:20 trinque: *shit

21:13:32 ascii_field: all related objects must be near one another

21:14:04 jurov: mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps

21:14:12 trinque: jurov: room 101

21:14:41 jurov: and it's going up again

21:14:43 flabkebab_: ascii_field: as in, same file, or as in same cluster of linked nodes?

21:14:58 ascii_field: trinque: technically, packets are diddled in room 641a. room 101 is where they put rats in your face

21:15:11 ascii_field: flabkebab_: as in, on the picture

21:15:17 trinque: ah right

21:15:20 ascii_field: look at your picture. would you, personally, get any use out of this ?

21:15:23 trinque: 101 diddles *you*

21:15:29 ascii_field: if the answer is no - what makes you think ~i~ could

21:16:14 flabkebab_: ya I see.

21:16:39 ascii_field: http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/doc/lenc/html/image_8h_b1e3d8088c78040d3bf44c9ea3293ed7_cgraph.png << example of a ~readable~ callgraph

21:16:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1eDEMTS )

21:16:43 ascii_field: taken, at random, from the net

21:16:46 trinque: I wrote a thing that did a force directed graph for an ebnf once

21:17:04 trinque: but the ebnf I was modeling wasn't convoluted inward on itself this haphazardly

21:17:10 trinque: !up ascii_field

21:17:19 ascii_field: https://romanegloo.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/callgraph_mmap_region.png << another example

21:17:20 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1eDESuV )

21:17:38 trinque: that code is way simpler, or missing nodes

21:17:47 ascii_field: this does not follow

21:18:28 trinque: lemme see if I can screenshot gephi before my laptop dies

21:18:51 ascii_field: the graph flabkebab_ showed does not even attempt to place symbols ~anywhere near~ even one of their links !!

21:19:08 ascii_field: they are just dropped down in columns, in apparently random order

21:19:49 danielpbarron: on the topic of time and the pogo, I should point out that I recently had to update the time on my blue pogo (the one i'm using as a web server / irc client) because it had drifted from the real time by as much as a quarter hour in the few months it had been running continuously

21:19:56 *: jurov expects a discovery that satoshi cast and called functions from void*

21:20:18 ascii_field: danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing

21:20:24 ascii_field: it has interrupt-based timekeeping

21:20:34 ascii_field: which means that it is severely pushed off course by events outside of its control

21:20:47 ascii_field: many interrupts - skipped moves of emulated clock

21:20:58 ascii_field: mircea_popescu ^

21:21:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16250 @ 0.00055754 = 9.06 BTC [-] {2}

21:23:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6300 @ 0.00055558 = 3.5002 BTC [-]

21:29:21 ascii_field: the callgraph thing is a straight 'travelling salesman' problem

21:29:34 ascii_field: but gotta minimize the crossings of the paths.

21:30:21 ascii_field: likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree.

21:35:53 jurov: mircea_popescu: one hour of uploading looked like this: http://www.explo.yt/net.jpg

21:35:55 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1eDIVar )

21:42:07 BingoBoingo: <ascii_field> danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing << query timeserver every modulo(rand) seconds?

21:43:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37800 @ 0.00055432 = 20.9533 BTC [-] {3}

21:45:26 mats: http://blog.cr4.sh/2015/07/building-reliable-smm-backdoor-for-uefi.html

21:45:27 assbot: My aimful life: Building reliable SMM backdoor for UEFI based platforms ... ( http://bit.ly/1gmuBEr )

21:54:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00056168 = 2.4714 BTC [+]

21:55:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52042 @ 0.00055206 = 28.7303 BTC [-] {2}

22:00:27 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

22:00:29 ascii_field: BingoBoingo: querying it at all is problematic. see today's thread.

22:00:40 ascii_field: mats: read that last night. notice how it wants you to build with microshit vs!!!

22:00:47 ascii_field: what a disgrace

22:01:35 BingoBoingo: querying at all is problematic. If it must be queried though best to make the timing of queries less predictable.

22:01:36 ascii_field: (and before anyone chimes in with 'of course vs' - this is empirically false. can build arbitrarily complicated crapware for winblows with gcc)

22:01:50 BingoBoingo: ^ like Bitcoin

22:02:09 ascii_field: i've build drivers for winblows with mingw (gcc)

22:02:49 ascii_field: it is possible to develop for winblows and remain sane if you treat it like a 'nintendo'

22:02:52 ascii_field: that is, only for testing

22:03:04 ascii_field: no one writes code for nintendo ~on~ a nintendo

22:03:14 mats: i wonder why it failed to build on OS X

22:03:29 ascii_field: mats: which 'it' ?

22:03:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27024 @ 0.00055973 = 15.1261 BTC [+] {2}

22:03:53 mats: driver

22:04:26 ascii_field: ask him

22:07:16 danielpbarron: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=960.msg13833#msg13833 >> I don't understand, are you under the impression that the program sets the system clock? It doesn't. << Satoshi on bitcoin time

22:07:17 assbot: Warning : Check your system clock (help me) ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZeqSd )

22:07:36 ascii_field: we know that it doesn't

22:07:54 ascii_field: danielpbarron: if you missed the thread - it was about how we have no clock on pogo

22:08:55 danielpbarron: i have read it all; just happened upon this relevant thread coincidentally

22:09:28 danielpbarron: in 2010 a very similar conversation was being had over on the forum

22:12:35 ascii_field: and notice how it ended

22:12:42 ascii_field: 'folks will be expected to use ntp'

22:14:45 trinque: ascii_field: seems like this has to have the information you want >> https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/search?q=%2Bcallers%3Amozilla%3A%3Aa11y%3A%3AAccessibleWrap%3A%3AShutdown%28%29

22:14:49 assbot: +callers:mozilla::a11y::AccessibleWrap::Shutdown() - DXR Search ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZfm97 )

22:14:49 trinque: dxr, that is

22:14:52 trinque: uses clang

22:15:02 trinque: that's a virtual method

22:15:08 ascii_field: wai wat

22:15:25 trinque: so perhaps if I can find where it stores the symbol table, I can get the data out of this vast piece of mozilla

22:15:56 ascii_field: this is the output of a proggy that can take any cpp tree ?

22:16:09 trinque: yeah

22:16:22 ascii_field: what does mozilla have to do with it

22:16:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3619 @ 0.00055252 = 1.9996 BTC [-]

22:16:49 trinque: ascii_field: mozilla made dxr

22:16:54 ascii_field: ah

22:16:56 trinque: presumably to help work on their vast wad o cpp

22:17:19 trinque: https://wiki.mozilla.org/DXR

22:17:21 assbot: DXR - MozillaWiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1CobcNo )

22:17:21 ascii_field: this is 1/10 the battle

22:17:22 ascii_field: still gotta do the plot

22:17:25 trinque: sure sure

22:17:29 trinque: I am not declaring victory

22:17:32 trinque: just a radar blip

22:17:41 *: ascii_field bbl

22:18:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41950 @ 0.00054687 = 22.9412 BTC [-] {3}

22:23:00 fluffypony: https://i.imgur.com/GnZuV5D.jpg

22:23:00 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZgEBd )

22:30:20 lobbesbot: New post: http://nosuchlabs.com/rss Phuctored RSA Modulus, GCD=3 (Alex Sosa ; Xlex Sosa ; ) http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4FC297377727D7EDA1512181888ECF02A8A5E5BC9B8406B2BF852B84F32FD55A#75FDFCD03681E98E3B4483A1D89425BD17F03693C768C1179CA1D9D0049467E3

22:30:23 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1eKZkup )

22:37:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18300 @ 0.00055259 = 10.1124 BTC [+] {2}

22:44:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53259 @ 0.00054563 = 29.0597 BTC [-] {3}

22:47:57 trinque: haha holy shit, dxr's "install" method is vagrant

22:48:15 trinque: A FUCKING VM FOR A STATIC HTML GENERATOR

22:48:27 trinque: BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THIS IS HOW THINGS ARE DONE TODAY

22:48:34 trinque: :D

22:49:16 mats: http://www.agner.org/optimize/

22:49:18 assbot: Software optimization resources. C++ and assembly. Windows, Linux, BSD, Mac OS X ... ( http://bit.ly/1CoeLTW )

22:49:26 trinque: these earth humans need a ritual which tests for mindless imitation in children

22:49:50 trinque: the ritual should be arranged such that imitating someone else without reflecting on the outcome first results in death

22:52:55 trinque: better yet, rather than death, a life of moving heavy objects

22:55:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29450 @ 0.00054391 = 16.0181 BTC [-]

23:04:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22701 @ 0.00054391 = 12.3473 BTC [-]

23:09:01 scoopbot_revived: Most Serene Republic Begins Advertising Public Blockchain Seed Nodes http://qntra.net/2015/07/most-serene-republic-begins-advertising-public-blockchain-seed-nodes/

23:13:00 pete_dushenski: nice one bb

23:13:36 shinohai: I wish my node would sync to either IP, as it is I'm stuck atm.

23:15:06 mod6: 349k+

23:16:03 shinohai: 363736 with 0 connections nau

23:17:14 mod6: i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself.

23:18:30 BingoBoingo: ty pete_dushenski

23:20:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8449 @ 0.00054153 = 4.5754 BTC [-]

23:21:14 shinohai: I'll give that a shot mod6, been using -connect

23:21:37 mod6: alright, as you wish. let me know how it goes.

23:22:46 shinohai: Of course

23:27:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35900 @ 0.00055278 = 19.8448 BTC [+]

23:29:25 *: BingoBoingo finally trying to recreate my OpenBSD 0.7.2-ish qt build. Must have lost the original sources that worked somewhere down the line

23:38:05 BingoBoingo: Well, not really re-create. Just fucking up the version strings in the name of lulz

23:40:39 BingoBoingo: !up devthedev

23:40:51 shinohai: It's always in the name of lulz BingoBoingo

23:47:08 BingoBoingo: !up Duffer1

23:48:48 BingoBoingo: !up btcdrak

23:50:43 ben_vulpes: <mod6> i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself. << i don't think he did

23:51:31 ben_vulpes: my stator's at 225753, btw

23:51:44 shinohai: I switched my config to addnode, got unstuck then stopped it

23:53:21 BingoBoingo: 255903 on stator

23:58:58 shinohai: I made the sync fine until that orphaned block on the 4th