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Transcript for 08-02-2015, 863 lines:

00:00:48 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu originally contested the difficulty of importing heavy things, saying it was a problem of the poorly networked

00:00:58 ben_vulpes: but now says he can't even get a pogo shipped in.

00:01:03 asciilifeform: -everything- is a problem of the poorly networked.

00:01:30 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it most certainly cannot be true that he cannot get a pogo shipped in. but quite likely true that he cannot get a pogo shipped in for 18 usd per.

00:02:13 asciilifeform: for sufficient price, can get an elephant shipped into pyongyang or south pole.

00:03:22 ben_vulpes: sure.

00:03:50 ben_vulpes: <adlai> [] this is actually why i suggested that for an mpif pc, it'd make the most sense to run the bot on s.mpoe itself << i admire the guys persistence

00:11:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93900 @ 0.00042309 = 39.7282 BTC [+]

00:18:59 davout: http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/01/20#l1421789919 <<< my fucking sides

00:19:00 assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1D8OUN1 )

00:20:13 adlai: ben_vulpes: context is http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-11-2014#913052, the thing is usable, i'm trying to get people to use it. maybe not the most tactful, but i don't have my own pr lady (yet)

00:20:13 assbot: Logged on 07-11-2014 01:18:27; mircea_popescu: there is exactly one avenue to do that : make it so good some actual trader starts using it, after which go work for him.

00:21:42 ben_vulpes: oh i get it!

00:21:49 ben_vulpes: i'm just saying that i admire your persistence.

00:22:00 adlai: thank you :)

00:26:06 jurov: yea, adlai keeps suggesting and saying "but it requires" ... perhaps one day someone'll make his code working and he'll be left with nice fuzzy feeling

00:30:54 *: adlai wonders whether that quite does him justice, but arguing on irc gives less of a fuzzy feeling than becoming that someone

00:35:43 jurov: you seem to avoid at any costs mentioning concrete terms to potential investors in this chan

00:39:05 adlai: i'm not set on a specific configuration for how such terms would look; i'm interested to see what works for them. mircea_popescu outlined the terms he offers people who manage profit centers, and it seems that he's not willing at this stage to risk an amount which is worth my time to manage, and this is understandable

00:39:39 adlai: so at this point i'm working further on my code, and waiting to see if anybody interested in using it has terms in mind already

00:40:24 adlai: i'm not going to declare in advance that i want X% of profits, or a Y% upfront fee, if that's what you're looking for

00:40:27 danielpbarron: dude, take the small amount and build some rep; what's with all the whining?

00:40:40 *: adlai is doing this, shuts up

00:48:28 kakobrekla: http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=99042

00:48:28 assbot: Raspberry Pi • View topic - Why is the PI2 camera-shy ? ... ( http://bit.ly/1DrqIpv )

00:49:06 kakobrekla: quite the lulz there

00:49:51 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: all transistors are phototransistors.

00:50:40 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: and, as shown here, 'opaque' plastic - isn't necessarily ideally opaque

00:50:52 asciilifeform: just as, say, your fingers are not (get a flashlight and see if didn't remember this)

00:55:46 kakobrekla: yet this normally doesnt hapen

00:55:49 kakobrekla: happen

00:56:26 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: unusually chinese ic package, would be a reasonable hypothesis.

00:56:41 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: this kind of thing was not unheard of in the old days of windowed uv-erasable eprom.

00:56:53 asciilifeform: (would lose the occasional bits)

00:56:57 kakobrekla: stickerfail?

00:57:24 asciilifeform: didn't always have a cover

02:00:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41050 @ 0.00042263 = 17.349 BTC [-]

02:01:47 *: mircea_popescu waves at all the people.

02:06:38 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he could have been lord curzon II, or else he could have been the Russian Lafayette.

02:06:52 mircea_popescu: this "british socialist, tour of derpage in spain" thing is wormtalk.

02:08:02 mircea_popescu: "oh i hate shootin gelephants and the empire is too heavy ; oh how the latrines stink" is really not adequate for one over the age of about 15.

02:08:38 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron: better than refreshing a faucet << pretty much teh point.

02:13:30 mircea_popescu: trinque: how many countries have to be fighting a war for the phrase "world war" to apply? <<< ww1 was instituted by gallup poll.

02:14:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: 'we've never heard of you' <<< i'll insure against that one, for cheap.

02:15:39 trinque: mircea_popescu: maybe they'll crowdsource a sweet name for wwiii from reddit this time

02:15:41 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: there are all of these things that make sense in the context of it, but... <<< i come fresh from a three hour session of discussing eulora game model with c people.

02:16:08 mircea_popescu: i can sort-of read c++ and i comprehend computers, but jesus christ was it fighting against us.

02:16:24 mircea_popescu: on the positive side, mining's also nailed down.

02:16:29 mircea_popescu: an' it rocks.

02:17:24 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: my plaintive cries << it's not a bad plan i don't think.

02:21:25 ben_vulpes: cart before the horse until the db's replaced

02:23:29 mircea_popescu: myeah.

02:23:55 mircea_popescu: the great debate of "with what" is eagerly awaited. im even working to import two (2) popcorns for the occasion.

02:25:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: i distinctly recall that machine tools are uncommonly difficult to obtain in ar, for example << do i need to show you pictures of the casa del transformador again ?

02:25:51 mircea_popescu: or tell you about how on reports about "power outages" i had all sortos of arrangements in place, including the option to have a container generator installed (worth about 3mw)

02:26:00 mircea_popescu: that i never ended up using because... there hasn't yet been a power outage.

02:26:01 ben_vulpes: first gotta resolve the "embedded" vs "external" question

02:27:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it most certainly cannot be true that he cannot get a pogo shipped in. but quite likely true that he cannot get a pogo shipped in for 18 usd per. <<< it doesn't even reach that. the value of ME running pogos is minimal. there are N+k**p things i can do to halp bitcoin.

02:27:33 mircea_popescu: there are, however, bunches (i'm told) of people who would like to do something, but for reasons of barrier of entry, can not.

02:27:36 mircea_popescu: for they, the pogo.

02:28:11 mircea_popescu: it's pretty much the lowest "i did something positive for the world i live in" barrier they'll ever meet.

02:29:14 mircea_popescu: that said, i'll definitely run a few myself.

02:30:29 ben_vulpes: wasn't reaaaally the topic iirc

02:30:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64842 @ 0.00042309 = 27.434 BTC [+]

02:31:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104753 @ 0.00042349 = 44.3618 BTC [+]

02:31:41 mircea_popescu: well i dunno what teh topic really was cause i'm not so sure i said what it seems to be the case i said or something

02:32:01 ben_vulpes: but you mention a 3mw gennie, so that's relevant

02:32:26 mircea_popescu: as you might imagine, it's more expensive to run than just use the grid.

02:32:37 mircea_popescu: however, the point is more along the lines of "solutions exist"

02:33:16 ben_vulpes: more relevantly "can be acquired"

02:33:36 mircea_popescu: actually you can get it on lease, and on quite excellent terms. with any luck, BY DAY.

02:35:16 ben_vulpes: how does renting a backup generator by the day make sense?

02:35:25 ben_vulpes: once you need it so does the rest of town.

02:35:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: kakobrekla: and, as shown here, 'opaque' plastic - isn't necessarily ideally opaque << actually, only metals are opaque properly.

02:35:31 mircea_popescu: which kinda is what the definition of metal is.

02:35:51 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes perhaps you don't understand what "the town" means.

02:35:58 mircea_popescu: buenos aires is larger than north carolina.

02:37:34 mircea_popescu: (not really, but w/e, 2k sqkm or something).

02:42:43 mircea_popescu: if the whole thing's out of power your problems are probably closer to finding enough ak47s rather than generators.

02:44:43 ben_vulpes: yeah. i get it

02:44:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59700 @ 0.00042247 = 25.2215 BTC [-] {2}

02:45:46 mircea_popescu: no no allow me to belabour teh point moar :D

02:46:32 mircea_popescu: because these logs were INSUFFICIENT i swear. i leave for a full few hours and what do i get ? NOTHING

02:53:19 mircea_popescu: " In 1936 it was clear to everyone that if Britain would only help the Spanish Government, even to the extent of a few million pounds' worth of arms, Franco would collapse and German strategy would be severely dislocated. By that time one did not need to be a clairvoyant to foresee that war between Britain and Germany was coming; one could even foretell within a year or two when it would come. Yet in the most mean, cow

02:53:19 mircea_popescu: ardly, hypocritical way the British ruling class did all they could to hand Spain over to Franco and the Nazis. Why? Because they were pro-Fascist, was the obvious answer."

02:53:46 mircea_popescu: this is actually a fair analysis, i suspect. cca 1936, stalin was pro hitler, lord halifax was, undeclaratively, but essentially, pro hitler. everyone was pro hitler.

02:54:08 mircea_popescu: to go from there to fuhrerbunker in less than a decade... you need a real idiot for such a thing.

02:56:30 mircea_popescu: !up benjamindees

02:56:53 benjamindees: <benjamindees> meth is a hell of a drug

02:56:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87900 @ 0.00042125 = 37.0279 BTC [-]

02:57:29 mircea_popescu: you starting silk road 5.0 ?

02:57:45 benjamindees: since I'm not the CIA... no

02:58:22 benjamindees: I was referring to Hitler.

02:59:34 mircea_popescu: and to add to that, hearst & co were DEFINITELY pro hitler.

02:59:39 mircea_popescu: heck, ford even got decorated for it.

03:00:15 mircea_popescu: benjamindees iirc he did cocaine, not really meth

03:02:17 asciilifeform: morell fed him both on occasions

03:02:23 asciilifeform: this is, iirc, well-established.

03:03:13 asciilifeform: 3mw gensets << those, one can get in zimbabwe

03:03:23 asciilifeform: just a bus without wheels, really

03:03:37 asciilifeform: scientific instruments - different ballgame.

03:04:49 mircea_popescu: except they CANT be had in the us.

03:04:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the value of ME running pogos is minimal. there are N+k**p things i can d << lol, we know these were for friends, not mircea_popescu's house

03:05:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: except they CANT be had in the us << tell that to kanzure, or any of the ten thousand folks like asciilifeform but moar-loaded.

03:06:02 asciilifeform: ebay hunting for usg surplus tech is a national sport.

03:06:04 mircea_popescu: if tomorrow your street loses power, you can't simply ordered a truck without wheels dropped in front of your property. for various pseudolegal and regtulatory reasons that essentrialy reduce to

03:06:09 mircea_popescu: "zek may not use or display power"

03:06:26 asciilifeform: lol! everybody on the street (but me, apparently) owns a genset

03:06:45 mircea_popescu: mebbe i am confused as to how things actually work thar.

03:06:48 asciilifeform: perhaps in some ultra-fascist locale like Mass.?

03:06:54 mircea_popescu: is wash dc different ?

03:06:55 asciilifeform: or san fran

03:07:01 benjamindees: yeah, you can find a large military surplus generator for cheap, but 3MW is pretty large

03:07:06 *: asciilifeform lives outside the city limits of wash.d.c. proper

03:07:12 mircea_popescu: oh well then obv.,

03:07:23 asciilifeform: 3MW is a railroad car.

03:07:35 mircea_popescu: not these days, notrly.

03:07:48 mircea_popescu: engines have apparently improved drastically.

03:07:58 asciilifeform: engine+tank

03:08:35 asciilifeform: quite a few office parks around here have gensets. through a quirk of bureaucracy, they were made mandatory at one point

03:08:48 asciilifeform: normally only connected to hallway lights & elevators, though.

03:08:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not at all what i mean.

03:09:05 mircea_popescu: i mean order. not prepared. order. when you feel like.

03:09:08 mircea_popescu: drop in street. on curb.

03:09:20 mircea_popescu: this is the important part here. not that "in principle could be had"

03:09:22 asciilifeform: we have those too. typically found at construction sites.

03:09:27 mircea_popescu: "could be had when you decide, on your own terms"

03:09:34 asciilifeform: advertised for rental, like bulldozers & excavators.

03:09:52 mircea_popescu: aha so same thing then

03:09:53 *: asciilifeform has not priced

03:10:37 asciilifeform: but wanted to point to the difference between a ubiquitous piece of construction equipment (SOP for electric welders at large sites) and something like a 6-axis cnc mill

03:10:50 asciilifeform: or ir spectrometer

03:11:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the thing is, argentina-chinese trade relations are about as close as us-canada

03:11:27 mircea_popescu: if the chinese make it, it can be had here.

03:12:00 *: asciilifeform can picture this

03:12:50 mircea_popescu: in fact argentina is about as close you can get to china without having to fuck azn looking women.

03:13:23 *: asciilifeform does not often have praise for usa, but cannot deny that it is a first-class graveyard for surplus golden toilet tech - e.g., machines like the 'tecan 200' (see ancient thread) originally costing 1/3 $mil can be had for ~5-10k usd, etc.

03:14:07 asciilifeform: to the point that the limiting factor is finding climate-controlled floor space for them

03:14:11 mircea_popescu: now that sort of thing is probably a lot iffier.

03:14:24 mircea_popescu: obviously a scavenger civilisation will hafta be built on top of the previous cities.

03:15:51 *: asciilifeform goes off to check on roaring propane heater; if water bottle thawed, workshop is habitable

03:16:18 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: do you use radiant or forced air?

03:16:41 benjamindees: asciilifeform, my surplus junk lives outside /shrug

03:17:07 mircea_popescu: "Kipling is in the peculiar position of having been a byword for fifty years. During five literary generations every enlightened person has despised him, and at the end of that time nine-tenths of those enlightened persons are forgotten and Kipling is in some sense still there."

03:17:08 mircea_popescu: bwahaha

03:18:40 mircea_popescu: "It is no use pretending that Kipling's view of life, as a whole, can be accepted or even forgiven by any civilized person. It is no use claiming, for instance, that when Kipling describes a British soldier beating a 'nigger' with a cleaning rod in order to get money out of him, he is acting merely as a reporter and does not necessarily approve what he describes. There is not the slightest sign anywhere in Kipling's wo

03:18:45 mircea_popescu: rk that he disapproves of that kind of conduct?on the contrary, there is a definite strain of sadism in him, over and above the brutality which a writer of that type has to have. Kipling is a jingo imperialist, he is morally insensitive and aesthetically disgusting. It is better to start by admitting that, and then to try to find out why it is that he survives while the refined people who have sniggered at him seem t

03:18:50 mircea_popescu: o wear so badly."

03:18:51 mircea_popescu: there you go, asciilifeform, re the orwellworm thread. he perfectly well knows what the problem is.

03:18:56 mircea_popescu: "how dare man live like man! UNFORGIVABRU!!!1"

03:48:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104041 @ 0.00041927 = 43.6213 BTC [-] {2}

04:06:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82000 @ 0.00041061 = 33.67 BTC [-]

04:09:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 179200 @ 0.00040825 = 73.1584 BTC [-] {4}

04:20:33 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: radiant or forced air << yard shed. portable furnace thing.

04:21:54 asciilifeform: ;;bc,stats

04:21:57 gribble: Current Blocks: 342511 | Current Difficulty: 4.127287389469702E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 342719 | Next Difficulty In: 208 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 7 hours, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 44950465076.1 | Estimated Percent Change: 8.91043

04:22:09 asciilifeform: 308821.

04:25:52 asciilifeform: !s gettrust assbot benjamindees

04:25:53 assbot: 0 results for 'gettrust assbot benjamindees' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gettrust+assbot+benjamindees

04:25:58 asciilifeform: !gettrust assbot benjamindees

04:25:58 assbot: benjamindees is not registered in WoT.

04:28:55 thestringpuller: ;;tslb

04:29:04 gribble: Time since last block: 12 minutes and 21 seconds

04:29:20 decimation: re: generators < the power is so unreliable in many areas on the east coast that many folks have a propane or natural gas powered generator permanently installed at their house

04:30:01 asciilifeform: those who don't, typically own a small (5-10kW) genset on wheels

04:30:31 asciilifeform: except for poor schmucks who live in flats, those sit out mains outages in their cars.

04:31:07 decimation: re: 3mw genset < yeah that's basically a diesel-electric locomotive

04:31:14 decimation: the military has generators in a 'standard container'

04:31:34 decimation: asciilifeform: I have a small 2 kw job that runs on propane, to run essentials 'just in case'

04:31:52 decimation: why propane? can be stored for a decade; doesn't leave nasty shit in the engine

04:33:13 decimation: generator container >> http://www.generatorcontainer.com/gallery1.htm << even has price in bezzlars!

04:33:14 assbot: Generator Container Industrial Diesel Containers ... ( http://bit.ly/1IsloGV )

04:33:49 decimation: ah but those come sans generator

04:34:19 decimation: at any rate, perfectly common industrial tool

04:42:52 decimation: re: law enforcement deserts < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8sEJq3jR4 < gentlemen shooting various objects (including propane tank) in the middle of the freakin' desert

04:42:53 assbot: CZ 7.62x39 vs. Coleman Propane Tank - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1IsnJ4C )

04:45:06 asciilifeform: the candle - cheating!

04:47:05 cazalla: why the demand for s.qntr?

04:47:28 decimation: asciilifeform: heh yeah

05:10:20 mircea_popescu: !up bitcoinquestinos

05:10:54 bitcoinquestinos: thanks man, what is this IRC? I read about it in a blog post

05:11:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> those who don't, typically own a small (5-10kW) genset on wheels << i have no idea what this would do. suppose a 2kw air conditioner unit, or fridge, or even washing machine.

05:11:28 mircea_popescu: capacitive charge being what it is, the 2kw would serve for what exactly ?

05:11:39 mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos irc is a way to talk to people

05:11:41 mircea_popescu: !up BlueMatt

05:11:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they typically have surge rating of 5-7x

05:11:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the generators ?

05:12:02 decimation: mircea_popescu: yeah can't run a/c but you could run fridge

05:12:12 bitcoinquestinos: mircea_popescu: I know I'm asking what is the purpose of this IRC?

05:12:20 mircea_popescu: decimation depending on the fridge. i think they make gen friendlier models now.

05:12:28 mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos this is where bitcoin happens.

05:12:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but what're they used for: typically stands between user and death from exposure. runs furnace blower/igniter in the cold months; a window ac unit in summer; fridge, a few lights, etc.

05:13:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, if it's all resistive charge it's useful.

05:13:12 decimation: yeah if you have a gas furnace, and you can run the blower, you can save your house water lines from freezing

05:13:45 decimation: because it could take days for the incompetents to fix the power lines in poor winter weather

05:13:46 mircea_popescu: otherwise i dunno what household can be run on 5kw (bottlenecked at 1.5ish)

05:14:10 asciilifeform: 'skeleton' systems as described above.

05:14:14 asciilifeform: that's pretty much it

05:14:45 mircea_popescu: decimation eu mostly heats on gas, these micro units that mostly don't need power. either because battery or ingenious.

05:14:50 bitcoinquestinos: mircea_popescu: What do you mean? Is this a place where people find the best way to spend their bitcoins so they can hold tighter?

05:15:19 mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos mno. i mean, when it's decided that mtgox dies, it;s decided here.

05:15:30 mircea_popescu: when it's decided gavin is of no further utility for bitcoin, it's decided here.

05:15:40 decimation: mircea_popescu: is it hydronic heat?

05:15:42 mircea_popescu: whenever something happens, or doesn't happen, it starts or doesn't start here.

05:16:01 mircea_popescu: decimation i have nfi what that is ? but no, either keep a pilot going, or w/e.

05:16:24 decimation: in the us gas heat is common, but typical large us house has a 'forced air' system that moves heated air around the house

05:16:26 mircea_popescu: decimation a yes, turns out it is!

05:16:35 bitcoinquestinos: mircea_propescu: Is everyone here anonymous?

05:16:36 mircea_popescu: nah, in europe it's a water pipes and radiators.

05:16:45 decimation: forced air is 'cheaper' to install

05:16:45 mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos you are anonymous. i'm not.

05:16:52 decimation: otherwise it's a worse solution

05:16:52 mircea_popescu: not better in any sense tho.

05:17:09 asciilifeform: bitcoinquestinos: about half the people here have www sites with human name, contact info, etc.

05:17:17 decimation: yeah if all you need to do is heat boiler, then you don't need electricity

05:17:21 mircea_popescu: my house in timisoara, the heating system held about a ton of water in the pipes and radiative elements. took about an hour to cool a coupla degrees.

05:17:35 mircea_popescu: decimation you sort-of need it for the pump, but it's not so much.

05:17:50 asciilifeform: about ~100W

05:17:56 decimation: this is very uncommon in the us, except for old homes

05:18:08 *: asciilifeform used to live in an early-1900s house with this type of furnace

05:18:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and since it runs maybe five times a day for a quarter of an hour, battery's quite feasible.

05:18:31 decimation: yeah if i had to provide backup power for something like that, would use UPS

05:18:35 bitcoinquestinos: mircea_propescu: What makes you say when Mt gox dies it's decided here?

05:18:35 asciilifeform: you actually had it on batteries?!

05:18:41 mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos history.

05:19:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, but then again i never had a power outage. if they happened, ups would work fine.

05:19:13 mircea_popescu: more expensive units come with their own batteries

05:19:19 mircea_popescu: (mostly for the co detector tho)

05:19:28 bitcoinquestinos: mircea_propescu: Can you be more specific?

05:19:46 mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos i could, but so far i'm not particulrly inclined. the logs are in the topic, peruse at your leisure.

05:20:02 decimation: part of the other reason 'forced air' heat is common in the us is because air conditioning is considered to be a requirement

05:20:14 mircea_popescu: six months or a year down the road, we can continue this conversation in a better position.

05:20:47 mircea_popescu: decimation i kinda wonder why water circulating systems aren't used for cooling much.

05:21:01 mircea_popescu: it'd prolly work better than air systems.

05:21:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: condensation.

05:21:19 asciilifeform: among other reasons

05:21:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform condensation happens in acs too, what.

05:21:43 asciilifeform: there, it happens in an enclosed space, above a drain.

05:21:44 decimation: yeah, but it's controlled in one spot

05:22:05 mircea_popescu: it doesn't have to be MUCH colder to extract heat.

05:22:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu clearly does not live in swampland

05:22:28 asciilifeform: ac is only half about heat

05:22:33 mircea_popescu: hm

05:22:38 asciilifeform: humidity is the real hell.

05:22:40 mircea_popescu: i guess that'd have to be it.

05:22:46 decimation: aye

05:23:24 asciilifeform: humidity is what keeps your natural 'ac' - sweat - from doing much good

05:24:20 decimation: also considered purely in energy efficiency terms, a 'heat pump' is most efficient for heating, and can be 'run backwards' for cooling

05:24:46 asciilifeform: whether a heat pump is good economics or lunacy depends on the region

05:24:50 decimation: the problem is that air source heat pumps can only heat down to a certain ambient temperature

05:24:52 decimation: aye

05:25:08 decimation: I have a friend who swears by the new mitsubishi air source heat pumps

05:25:33 *: asciilifeform had heat pump in old flat, about 1/3 the size of new house (gas furnace there), actually cost more to run the heat pump

05:25:41 asciilifeform: for roughly similar type of wooden hovel

05:26:32 decimation: they claim to heat (without resistive elements) down to 5 F

05:26:35 asciilifeform: natural gas is considerably cheaper, in this part of the world, than equiv. via heatpump.

05:26:53 decimation: asciilifeform: the heat pump was probably turning on bigass resistor for 'emergency heat'

05:27:12 asciilifeform: decimation: i had it configured to show precisely which mechanism was running at a given time

05:27:22 asciilifeform: (aftermarket controller. i take it from flat to flat)

05:27:36 asciilifeform: it wasn't the resistive heater

05:27:49 asciilifeform: but the fact that heat pump can only extract so much at a given external temp

05:28:06 decimation: the newer japanese units can achieve amazing coefficients of performance

05:28:06 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

05:28:33 asciilifeform: and they are to be found where in usa? warren buffett's house ?

05:28:45 *: kakobrekla has one

05:28:47 decimation: said mitsubishi unit

05:28:58 decimation: typically the most efficient ones are 'mini-split' systems

05:29:38 decimation: which would be somewhat useless in a house already fitted with ducts, granted

05:29:39 *: asciilifeform takes a very limited interest in exotic hvac tech, as he does not own his buildings, and never will

05:30:15 decimation: hvac is a particular kind of chumpatron in the usa

05:30:24 bitcoinquestinos: mircea_popescu: what is http://mpex.co/

05:30:37 decimation: only a few factories manufacturer the equipment, and they usually only sell to 'licensed installers'

05:30:55 asciilifeform: and the junk is typically built to last about one decade.

05:31:00 kakobrekla: mitsubishi is the shit as far as these heatpumps go

05:31:12 decimation: kakobrekla: do you have a mini-split system?

05:32:40 decimation: for the interested reader, some theory on heat pumps is here: http://www.withouthotair.com/cE/page_301.shtml

05:32:41 assbot: Ch E Page 301: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air | David MacKay ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMBmAj )

05:33:47 mircea_popescu: decimation yeah heat pumps seem a lot better deal than any alternative, yet the least commonly used.

05:34:17 mircea_popescu: and in principle can heat/cool to any arbitrary temperature, as long as your compressor's up to it.

05:34:20 decimation: well, in the case of the us (as asciilifeform mentioned) natural gas is much cheaper to install and pretty cheap to run

05:34:31 mircea_popescu: but gas + ac ?

05:34:38 decimation: yes, that's very common

05:34:46 decimation: which is kinda retarded

05:34:46 mircea_popescu: but is it still cheaper, i mean.

05:35:12 TheNewDeal: ;;market sell 666

05:35:12 gribble: Bitstamp | A market order to sell 666 bitcoins right now would net 148999.9978 USD and would take the last price down to 223.2300 USD, resulting in an average price of 223.7237 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0119 seconds

05:35:12 kakobrekla: decimation we have a heat pump for radiators and hot water for the house and for air i have a separate inverter unit with one external and two internal units.

05:35:32 mircea_popescu: kako lives in the house of teh future.

05:35:38 decimation: kakobrekla: yeah I bet that's pretty cheap to run

05:35:41 decimation: but not so cheap to install

05:35:43 *: kakobrekla not leaving house

05:36:05 mircea_popescu: decimation but if one's principal equity is the house, a la us, then it makes sense.

05:37:12 decimation: mircea_popescu: the irony is that for many us citizens, their house is their biggest 'savings account', yet very few consider any other option than what the builder 'decided'

05:37:26 mircea_popescu: rather strange, n'est pas.

05:38:34 mircea_popescu: leaving alone the weirdness of keeping most of your capital in a nonproductive asset (hey, that's made to be through purely government interventionist means), not even pretend like you're managing it ?

05:39:14 decimation: well, one of the reasons that things are this way is because the 'trades' have a pretty strong chokehold on what gets done

05:39:37 mircea_popescu: that's another thing. hire a plumber so he tells you what to do ?!

05:39:38 bitcoinquestinos: What do you guys think is the best capital to acquire?

05:39:45 asciilifeform: yes, gas plus ac

05:40:12 asciilifeform: it is typically built as a system of wall ducts/grilles and massive blower in the cellar (in my case, attic)

05:40:21 mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos http://fraudsters.com/2013/bitcoin-assets-rules-and-regulations/ (2.a. of particular interest to you).

05:40:22 assbot: #bitcoin-assets rules and regulations pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/13Yy3yb )

05:40:44 decimation: w.r.t. home builders, any home that's younger than 30-40 years has been built in a carefully-managed chumpatronic environment

05:40:55 asciilifeform: the blower has a steel heat exchanger inside, which is either heated with gas fires or chilled with freon loop, as the season goes

05:40:57 mircea_popescu: or for that matter, older than about 60.

05:41:01 mircea_popescu: or i guess in between

05:41:04 decimation: yeah, that's fair

05:41:09 decimation: although it's been getting worse

05:41:29 asciilifeform: if one's principal equity is the house << depends which flavour of chumpitude one prefers

05:41:50 asciilifeform: the house i live in is a massive roaring bonfire for money

05:41:51 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that should be some pretty cool steel, that happily takes 100 degree differentials over decades.

05:41:52 asciilifeform: (rented)

05:42:30 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-02-2015#1012439

05:42:30 assbot: Logged on 08-02-2015 05:30:55; asciilifeform: and the junk is typically built to last about one decade.

05:42:45 decimation: mircea_popescu: it's considered normal for the entire system to break every year or two, typically requiring a specially licensed repairman to come out and replace the freon lines

05:42:46 mircea_popescu: heh there's that.

05:43:16 mircea_popescu: decimation you know, i had an old zil fridge at some point in romania, and the thing had been running for ~25 years, and it never ever leaked.

05:43:19 asciilifeform: and yes, it's every bit the toilet+kitchen combo it soulds like

05:43:23 asciilifeform: *sounds

05:43:43 asciilifeform: i have a remote fitted to mine, and occasionally press the wrong button in half-awake trance

05:43:56 asciilifeform: firing up heat in summer or chillers in winter.

05:44:13 asciilifeform: zil fridge << indestructible. see old soviet fridge thread.

05:44:16 asciilifeform: !s zil

05:44:16 assbot: 6 results for 'zil' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=zil

05:44:21 mircea_popescu: http://media.englishrussia.com/new_images//zilmuseum-50.jpg << exactly the one in middle

05:44:24 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMFD6P )

05:44:24 decimation: mircea_popescu: in the us, I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers (who have an oligopoly) cheapen shit up so that it 'breaks' and requires replacement at a rate they select

05:44:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://article.yeeyan.org/view/214657/182505 << check out all the soviet porn

05:44:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's a recent zil

05:44:50 asciilifeform: ('80s?)

05:44:58 mircea_popescu: no ?

05:45:20 mircea_popescu: yeah the handle's not right

05:45:24 asciilifeform: we had a curvy, bulbous 1950s unit, that still worked when we left it - '92

05:45:26 mircea_popescu: ok, well, very similar 70s model.

05:45:31 mircea_popescu: capatob ?

05:45:33 asciilifeform: and a '70s 'minsk' (ditto)

05:45:41 decimation: similar refrigerators were made in the us, and were similarly reliable, made before the 60's

05:45:55 mircea_popescu: decimation i know, fallout's full of them :D

05:46:17 decimation: this is all a chumpatron on the 'let's break everyone's window so we can stimulate the window-repair economy' model

05:46:27 asciilifeform: http://holod.made-in-by.by/images/stories/zil-fridge.jpg << the True zil.

05:46:29 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMGm8c )

05:46:56 mircea_popescu: ah, that's an older model.

05:47:19 asciilifeform: interestingly, this type of fridge chassis was formally banned in usa, despite giving a much tighter seal than the magnetic rubber used today

05:47:28 asciilifeform: and the ban was an organized scam

05:47:41 asciilifeform: one of the first 'think of the ch1ldr3nz' idiocies

05:47:56 decimation: in the us, the chumpatron is often kick-started by a government regulation that is sold as 'efficient' or 'safe'

05:48:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform funny enough, it was heard of in 80s romania. parents insistently warning kids not to do it!

05:48:44 asciilifeform: probably the crap was translated into even eskimo

05:48:51 asciilifeform: catchy meme.

05:48:58 mircea_popescu: it is. i wonder why.

05:49:07 asciilifeform: http://forums.drom.ru/house/t1151932955.html << fella wanted to buy, insisted on this same zil, promised $maxint

05:49:09 assbot: Ищу холодильник ЗИЛ-Москва ЗИЛ-Днепр!!!!!! ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMHetf )

05:49:17 asciilifeform: plenty of posts like this

05:49:18 mircea_popescu: perhaps because parents are so acutely aware of the type of divorcement between meaning and action that trips up children.

05:50:07 mircea_popescu: incidentally, the same that results in c++ bugs.

05:50:14 asciilifeform: just as there are, afaik, no confirmed reports of 'glue sniffing' prior to the media chumpamatics re: same in usa

05:50:18 asciilifeform: circa 1970s

05:50:23 mircea_popescu: like, most of 'em. "are you sure you wish to forever lock yourself in ? well...that's what you're doing"

05:50:31 mircea_popescu: "your exit pointer is now dangling"

05:51:15 mircea_popescu: that's what it is. parents suspect children are about on the level of c programmers, and try to avoid any situations where reality emulates the c compiler.

05:51:26 asciilifeform: http://s003.radikal.ru/i201/1108/14/507b7f02f398.jpg << can'o'sprats in bottom shelf

05:51:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMI4WX )

05:51:32 mircea_popescu: hahaha

05:51:40 mircea_popescu: hm i had some pics of them too im sure.

05:52:00 asciilifeform: parents... c compiler << obligatory: 'shall be delivered'

05:53:29 asciilifeform: http://s017.radikal.ru/i427/1111/3a/913b2a83d5b1.jpg << zil... cake.

05:53:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMIH2S )

05:53:36 asciilifeform: ^ the thing is iconic in ru

05:55:22 mircea_popescu: lol

05:55:37 asciilifeform: to a lesser extent also famous are other vintage home appliances, like 'buran' vacuum cleaner - http://kartmen.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/20131126_162658.jpg

05:55:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMJoJB )

05:55:56 asciilifeform: still sits in many a summer 'dacha', used to - would you believe - gather up mosquitoes.

05:56:20 asciilifeform: yes, that thing is entirely steel.

05:56:33 asciilifeform: drop from a 8th story window? no problem.

05:56:43 mircea_popescu: grandparents had a buran.

05:56:47 decimation: asciilifeform: actually that's not a bad idea, it doesn't take much breeze to keep mosquitos away

05:56:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same, lol

05:56:54 mircea_popescu: only thing that ever scared me. but i'd quit the room in a hurry

05:57:03 asciilifeform: l0l!

05:57:07 *: asciilifeform same

05:57:12 mircea_popescu: and yes it had a half bowl top and a fat cylinder butt

05:57:16 mircea_popescu: and sounded like a jet taking off

05:57:19 asciilifeform: that thing was -loud-

05:57:48 asciilifeform: only when i finally moved to current digs and got a 'shop vac' (industrial thing, picks up swarf in machine shop) finally can match 'buran'.

05:58:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://fraudsters.com/2010/ce-bea-blogerul/ << my claim to ru citizenship

05:58:03 assbot: Ce bea blogerul ? pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMJW25 )

05:58:03 asciilifeform: for sheer deafening

06:00:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: Daca as bea bere la foc continuu, pe o teava cat gatul direct in stomac, fara sa inghit, tot n-as ajunge nicaieri << this is a national sport in usa, didja know ?

06:00:21 asciilifeform: the corner shop near my old flat even sold the kit

06:00:43 mircea_popescu: the head mounted thing ?

06:01:06 asciilifeform: http://www.boozingear.com/media/catalog/product/cache/7/thumbnail/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/M/S/MSC-0157b/-Bongzilla-12-Pack-Beer-Bong.jpg << ad

06:01:07 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMKJ2Z )

06:01:23 asciilifeform: http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/huge-beer-bong.jpg

06:01:24 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMKRQ4 )

06:01:24 asciilifeform: etc

06:01:30 mircea_popescu: heh.

06:01:40 mircea_popescu: by the way, let's help the haters out a little. http://fraudsters.com/2009/cocktail-flu/

06:01:41 assbot: Cocktail flu pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMKXqT )

06:01:48 decimation: yes this is common in 'fraternities' on us university campuses

06:14:21 decimation: !up smidge

06:14:28 decimation: guten morgen

06:21:02 TheNewDeal: it's not morgen for me

06:21:07 TheNewDeal: unless that means night

06:21:36 decimation: me neither but it would be for folks in germany

06:22:16 TheNewDeal: aye

06:22:24 mircea_popescu: heil fruhstuck ?

06:22:29 decimation: heh

06:22:37 decimation: with that I bid good evening

06:22:40 decimation: !down decimation

07:14:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53600 @ 0.00041105 = 22.0323 BTC [+]

07:18:15 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1941 @ 0.00087042 = 1.6895 BTC [-] {8}

07:19:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1964 @ 0.0008671 = 1.703 BTC [-] {5}

07:22:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 262600 @ 0.00040591 = 106.592 BTC [-] {3}

07:40:10 cazalla: https://twitter.com/ChipotleTweets lol

07:40:12 assbot: Chipotle (@ChipotleTweets) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kvw6tQ )

07:56:54 fluffypony: lol

08:13:09 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 5000 @ 0.00084738 = 4.2369 BTC [-] {16}

08:15:11 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2010 @ 0.00083698 = 1.6823 BTC [-] {5}

08:18:15 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3500 @ 0.00083303 = 2.9156 BTC [-] {2}

08:53:21 cazalla: ah damn, they got their account back already lol

08:54:19 cazalla: that's quite quick considering it took @ElectrumWallet about a month to get that account back

09:43:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27100 @ 0.00039999 = 10.8397 BTC [-]

10:41:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 210500 @ 0.00041106 = 86.5281 BTC [+] {2}

10:48:42 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.0008001 = 1.6002 BTC [-] {2}

12:47:39 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 211 @ 0.00508131 = 1.0722 BTC [+]

13:40:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3900 @ 0.00082994 = 3.2368 BTC [-] {5}

13:42:33 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1250 @ 0.00082999 = 1.0375 BTC [+] {2}

13:55:47 jurov: that generator discussion..incredible. like, imma here running a server off only a little ups with 99.9% uptime

13:56:11 jurov: when putin arrives everyone will be caught with pants down

14:09:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30988 @ 0.00041189 = 12.7636 BTC [+]

14:20:00 jurov: http://oglaf.com/matter/

14:20:01 assbot: Matter ... ( http://bit.ly/1IuRFgw )

14:56:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41450 @ 0.00041189 = 17.0728 BTC [+]

15:19:13 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Gold to top $1500 before 16 May" http://bitbet.us/bet/1106/ Odds: 18(Y):82(N) by coin, 20(Y):80(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.3 BTC. Current weight: 77,641.

15:19:15 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $150 before March" http://bitbet.us/bet/1107/ Odds: 13(Y):87(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 10.58179557 BTC. Current weight: 27,359.

15:19:17 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $100 before April" http://bitbet.us/bet/1108/ Odds: 15(Y):85(N) by coin, 17(Y):83(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.57696636 BTC. Current weight: 64,327.

15:35:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63200 @ 0.00041189 = 26.0314 BTC [+]

16:20:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49082 @ 0.00040969 = 20.1084 BTC [-]

16:36:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32800 @ 0.00040969 = 13.4378 BTC [-]

17:07:55 mircea_popescu: jurov: when putin arrives everyone will be caught with pants down << everyone still there, at any rate.

17:10:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 12009 @ 0.00077888 = 9.3536 BTC [-] {30}

17:14:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2968 @ 0.00040969 = 1.216 BTC [-]

17:23:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1833 @ 0.00077 = 1.4114 BTC [-] {9}

17:26:21 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 315 @ 0.00572587 = 1.8036 BTC [+] {20}

17:28:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 111700 @ 0.0004017 = 44.8699 BTC [-] {2}

17:35:09 mircea_popescu: btw, anyone read "[Date: 1601.] Conversation, as it was by the Social Fireside, in the Time of the Tudors." ?

17:46:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8743 @ 0.00040734 = 3.5614 BTC [+]

18:03:42 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1093/ Odds: 20(Y):80(N) by coin, 20(Y):80(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.601 BTC. Current weight: 88,488.

18:03:44 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "BTC price to rise above 1oz of gold in 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1092/ Odds: 38(Y):62(N) by coin, 39(Y):61(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.127 BTC. Current weight: 89,007.

18:03:46 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "BTC tops all time high before April Fool's" http://bitbet.us/bet/1081/ Odds: 9(Y):91(N) by coin, 10(Y):90(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.0329 BTC. Current weight: 39,234.

18:10:04 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2010 @ 0.00077012 = 1.5479 BTC [-] {8}

18:18:28 mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel

18:18:34 mircea_popescu: !gettrust assbot gabriel_laddel

18:18:34 assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user gabriel_laddel: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/gabriel_laddel | http://w.b-a.link/user/gabriel_laddel

18:18:48 mircea_popescu: dude, that thing's lengthy, and not directly obvious why i'd care ?

18:19:08 gabriel_laddel: then don't bother reading I suppose.

18:19:55 mircea_popescu: https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/4952 << skimmed a little. from a purely trolling perspective, it's not bad.

18:19:56 assbot: An experience with NixOS. · Issue #4952 · NixOS/nixpkgs · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1yXi10P )

18:21:01 mircea_popescu: "the human's inability to fully comprehend the parsing and syntactical schemes they're able to create" << this is actually a generally valid point, and about half of all problems of humanity come from this impedance mismatch.

18:21:21 mircea_popescu: it's also necessarily going to remain there, and for great benefit.

18:22:10 gabriel_laddel: The last message from me in that thread contains a brief discussion of the "why" of lisp, that is, what separates it from being 'just another language'. Figured I'd post it in here because your previous fraudsters post discussing reverse polish notation and Erik Naggum + many #b-a messages didn't communicate to me that lisp has 'clicked' yet for many people.

18:22:48 mircea_popescu: well yes, fortunately i've cut to it by now. but listen, you gotta be much better at packaging stuff.

18:23:09 mircea_popescu: the best chemistry lab, were it to be maintained as a collection of bottles going "stuff" "Good stuff!" "REagenT" etc

18:23:12 mircea_popescu: would not really work.

18:23:35 gabriel_laddel: Thanks for the feedback. I'll keep that in mind.

18:25:05 mircea_popescu: and since this is here, allow me to rant, not in your direction particularly but in general,

18:25:59 mircea_popescu: that the idiocy of puritanism imposing "modesty" upon the coder (on top of chastity - which by the way, there's nothing great about not "raping" women, being a nice guy, great sense of humor etc. that's a drone.) limit people's ability to do crucial things for their success and the world's hygiene.

18:26:30 mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with saying "i am great", in principle. competent people do not in the slightest mind the nude affirmation of your naked competency. the error on the topic is amusing, but not the end of the world

18:26:54 mircea_popescu: (much like people falling imagine everyone's looking when in fact nobod ycares, so the guy caught overstating his competency imagines the world ended when really - people just had a laugh).

18:27:17 fluffypony: I feel like replying to that thread with "Yakshemash! Lisp best prostitute in all of Github. You like?"

18:27:20 mircea_popescu: it is i suspect off this festered, metastasized modesty that people can't make good summaries, introduce anything properly or generally package well

18:27:31 gabriel_laddel: fluffypony: lol

18:28:10 mircea_popescu: fuck (not heck. fuck!) it's probably even why people don't enjoy writing comments and specs. because they require "this is great" and "im so fucking proud of this" ands "i bet you wouldn't have come up with this in five lifetimes" to be either worth reading or worth writing

18:28:21 mircea_popescu: and somehow these natural and necessary modes of speech are "forbidden". /rant.

18:29:47 fluffypony: mircea_popescu: they're part of the "pat-on-the-back" crowd that constantly need to be told what a good job they're doing else their paltry raison d'être will crumble

18:30:40 mircea_popescu: i imagine you know, if you can't say it for yourself, you're stuck trying to find people to support you

18:31:06 mircea_popescu: doubleplusungood group creation recipe, this.

18:31:46 mircea_popescu: anyway https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/4952#issuecomment-73422170 is where the fun starts.

18:31:48 assbot: An experience with NixOS. · Issue #4952 · NixOS/nixpkgs · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1yXjSTl )

18:31:56 mircea_popescu: and wtf is nixos even/

18:32:13 gabriel_laddel: some idiots decided to redo all of unix's packaging

18:32:29 gabriel_laddel: using shell scripts and regexes, because types and haskell

18:32:31 mircea_popescu: well *nix packaging sucks quite universally.

18:32:35 mircea_popescu: ahahaha okay.

18:33:02 gabriel_laddel: yeah. also, they don't document anything, or so much as tell you that they're going to move the whole C toolchain.

18:33:04 mircea_popescu: brb changing the font of the tax code

18:33:11 gabriel_laddel: which breaks about everything.

18:33:37 mircea_popescu: the problem starts in 5th grade. there should be a class called Abstraction.

18:34:24 mircea_popescu: kids are expecting to do it and do it well but it's never taught. it's not like expecting virgins to fuck like pros on their first date. it's more like expecting tramps to ballet. spontaneously.

18:39:04 asciilifeform: ;;bc,stats

18:39:09 gribble: Current Blocks: 342583 | Current Difficulty: 4.127287389469702E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 342719 | Next Difficulty In: 136 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 1 hour, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 44457253638.5 | Estimated Percent Change: 7.71543

18:39:16 asciilifeform: 314555.

18:40:08 asciilifeform: anyone read "[Date: 1601.] Conversation, as it was by the Social Fireside... << aye.

18:40:49 asciilifeform: (anyone wants? here it is, http://archive.org/stream/160103190gut/3190.txt )

18:40:51 assbot: Full text of "1601" ... ( http://bit.ly/1yXlkoM )

18:42:18 asciilifeform: NixOS << if idiots want to keep trying to 'fly' to the moon by stacking chairs, let them.

18:42:38 asciilifeform: but there is no reason for any thinking person to become involved in any capacity.

18:44:17 gabriel_laddel: ^ Correct. I ended up using it because I needed to quickly build a linux distro and someone told me it could do some things it couldn't really do.

18:44:39 mircea_popescu: scam.

18:44:42 gabriel_laddel: mistakenly posted that issue, not fully grokking how bad of an idea it was

18:44:49 gabriel_laddel: (nixos, that is )

18:44:55 gabriel_laddel: eventually learned the hard way.

18:45:56 mircea_popescu: "Examples: at what point is appropriate to leave package management up to a language's ecosystem? Is there ever a reason to? " << one hell of a problem.

18:46:32 gabriel_laddel: Politics is harder than writing code. Who would have thought.

18:46:34 mircea_popescu: in MPWorld this is implemented as a sort of api, and languages either talk to it or are stuck doing 100% of the work themselves.

18:46:46 asciilifeform: possibly the best package management system for commonlisp users is 'quicklisp'. essentially bulletproof.

18:46:56 mircea_popescu: only correct solution to political problems, b-a ness.

18:47:25 asciilifeform: downloads dependencies, grinds gpg sigs, etc. automatically.

18:47:42 chetty: it's more like expecting tramps to ballet. spontaneously.//you mean they don't? I see in the movies all the time

18:48:17 mircea_popescu: "For instance, for ELF executables, we set the RPATH in the executable such that it will find a statically determined set of library dependencies at runtime, rather than using a dynamic mechanism such as the LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable to look up libraries" holy shit.

18:48:26 mircea_popescu: this is essentially mitm for the userspace.

18:48:41 mircea_popescu: chetty well the movies kinda exist for this purpose.

18:48:48 asciilifeform: thing is, braindamaged languages (they know who they are) have no way of specifying -individual routines- as having dependencies

18:48:51 mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel

18:49:27 asciilifeform: likewise, another common form of braindamage is a lack of any fine-grained namespace control

18:49:58 mircea_popescu: no but this is out and out "everythingwillbefineism" imported back into the software stack.

18:50:13 mircea_popescu: like you know, plaintext emails and unauthed telnet. because "who would ever hijack an account!"

18:50:37 mircea_popescu: let's just assume that it's ok to override the user imperatives. because.

18:50:39 asciilifeform: trying to explain that it is quit impossible to have a package management system above the language level that is not dumbed down by support for braindamaged languages.

18:50:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i didn;'t mean you, i'm stikk in shock over the quote above

18:51:02 mircea_popescu: still*

18:51:04 asciilifeform: wai which

18:51:09 asciilifeform: the elf thing?

18:51:21 asciilifeform: woah.

18:51:58 mircea_popescu: yes that.

18:52:53 asciilifeform: mitm for the userspace << funnily, one common purely-userland trick to play on pwned folks is to adjust LD_PRELOAD in their personal shell env

18:53:16 asciilifeform: e.g., substitute a 'readline' that logs keys, etc.

18:53:21 mircea_popescu: well yes.

19:02:00 mod6: no need to worry about r00tkit, r00tkit pre-installed!

19:04:59 mircea_popescu: "it's not the rootkit, it's the os"

19:14:38 mircea_popescu: "There are very few classics in the field of computing. We are at the very beginning of this journey and it hasn't even begun to get interesting yet. IMHO, the Cathedral vs. Bazaar isn't in anyway a dilemma or a classic. Linux was a failure 20 years ago, it is a failure today and any posturing otherwise is just that. "

19:15:15 mircea_popescu: the sad reality is that the earlier "linux is a failure but doesn't have to stay that way" is slowly coming to the sobering reality that "it is a failure and systemfuck it."

19:16:27 gabriel_laddel: Seriously. Where is the tree of all hardware as nodes with drivers as sub nodes? Oh, it doesn't exist? right.

19:16:38 mircea_popescu: it's not that it doesn't exist.

19:16:51 mircea_popescu: it doesn't exist 30 years later, which 30 years have been spent doing what exactly ?

19:16:54 mircea_popescu: fighting hardware.

19:17:08 gabriel_laddel: 'fighting'

19:17:12 mircea_popescu: right.

19:17:15 gabriel_laddel: what I would like to see is an actual fight.

19:17:25 mircea_popescu: you need actual men for actual fights.

19:17:34 mircea_popescu: ever seen teenagers brawl in the schoolyard ?

19:17:41 gabriel_laddel: nope.

19:17:47 mircea_popescu: "eyes closed and arms flailing"

19:18:33 gabriel_laddel: as for the fight in our realm, I'd like to buy 10ks of AMD opterons K8 chips and reverse engineer them. Give designs to China.

19:19:05 *: mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact.

19:19:18 mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel

19:19:21 gabriel_laddel: hahahaa

19:19:21 mircea_popescu: wouldja id already.

19:22:25 mircea_popescu: motherfucker!

19:22:26 mircea_popescu: "Suppose you're trying to find the best way to structure your description of something. (Examples: choosing the structure for a computer program to perform some task; or choosing the structure for a theory of physics.)

19:22:26 mircea_popescu: What you hope to find is the natural structure of what you're describing ? a structure that affords a really beautiful, simple description. When you strike the natural structure, a sort of resonance occurs, in which various subsidiary problems you may have had with your description just melt away, and the description practically writes itself."

19:22:47 mircea_popescu: these kids are so fucking stupid i can't believe i've just read "when you meet the right someone it'll feel special" in code-words.

19:24:04 mircea_popescu: what the fuck already, if the planet crossed through a bogon ray one evening in 1988 and made everyone's brain essentially batrachian in nature i could never know.

19:25:42 gabriel_laddel: ...

19:25:50 gabriel_laddel: I've had that exact experience with programming.

19:25:56 mircea_popescu: so what if you did ?

19:26:06 mircea_popescu: so did i. what's that do ?

19:26:51 gabriel_laddel: well, when someone is tweaking the design of something and it produces extremely complex and counter-intuitive behavior I point them to that quote.

19:27:07 gabriel_laddel: the /feeling/ didn't do anything. It is merely a signal.

19:27:12 mircea_popescu: listen here : the fact that it feels right is no indication of it being the best way.

19:27:36 mircea_popescu: the fact of it being a pile a kludge is an excellent indication of it not being the best way, but rather heuristic in nature.

19:27:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ...fighting hardware << aha. linux kernel in one sentence.

19:28:08 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: so how'd you learn to fuck?

19:28:22 gabriel_laddel: feelings, and trial and error were not involved at all?

19:28:25 mircea_popescu: the entire basis for that quote is the reverbalisation of the concept that "when true love comes around you'll know". empirically, most people do not.

19:28:47 mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i actually was kinda disinterested in fucking as a young adolescent, was taught by older girls.

19:29:08 mircea_popescu: you figure that's relevant ?

19:30:11 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: yes. you've written about the game of 'balance' wrt fucking. when playing this game you /know/ somehow that you're doing it correctly, via various signals.

19:30:25 mircea_popescu: but in any case : what do you figure is the difference bewteen "When you strike the natural structure, a sort of resonance occurs" and "perl is a fine way to do nixos" ?

19:30:39 mircea_popescu: after all... when you hit the language with regexp just right you know.

19:30:44 mircea_popescu: total lack of exploding computers.

19:31:04 mircea_popescu: apparently you no longer need trees here ?

19:31:16 mircea_popescu: just you know, pattern match and all will be well (when it's truely well)

19:31:21 gabriel_laddel: using regexes for that is something like... trying to impregnate a woman through her arse.

19:31:39 gabriel_laddel: at some point you've just got to try something different.

19:32:03 mircea_popescu: but you, in your own description (well, in their description which you seem to underscore) of "how to meta-structure" in fact revert to what is the equivalent of pattern matching.

19:32:30 mircea_popescu: this is exactly what perl outputs : "it feels right"

19:32:42 gabriel_laddel: as for my id, I'm currently fixing <irritant to livelihood>. First chance I get I'm sitting down and sorting out the whole GPG thing. As it stands I was not particularly happy with the documentation it supplied and wasn't sure which parts I'd have to rewrite. My previous key got destroyed in a failed backup becuase I didn't spend enough time on it the first time around. Also, I don't think gossipd is happening via w

19:32:43 gabriel_laddel: hoever it was, and I'm fairly sure I grok ASCII's plan and will be handling some intro documentation for it + figuring out how the PGP code needs to interface with it exactly.

19:33:47 gabriel_laddel: Hmm...

19:34:00 gabriel_laddel: Perhaps that quote was misplaced.

19:34:03 mircea_popescu: re game of balance : fucking is an extremely poor metaphora for what we're doing here, because computers are actually turing machines, whereas cunts are not.

19:34:26 mircea_popescu: so yes, you can do just fine as a human interacting with humans on broken structure. just as long as it's broken in tolerable places.

19:34:36 mircea_popescu: dna is exactly this : worst code ever, wouldn't even parse, let alone compile.

19:36:10 mircea_popescu: which is why a flimsy repackaging of "popular advice" that doesn't even work on the fucking plane is horribru. not only it doesn't work in practice, but the mind that tends to make such confusions is probably in a very poor state to think about anything.

19:37:28 mircea_popescu: (ps. the lisp notation of basic arithmetic would win "least likely to succeed" "ass-ugliest award" from a vast majority of all the people who understand basic arithmetic. it "doesn't feel right" for almost anyone. 3+4 does.

19:37:34 mircea_popescu: so what does this matter ?)

19:37:54 gabriel_laddel: becuase of the "various subsidiary problems that fall away"

19:38:07 mircea_popescu: which most idiots aren't aware of in the first place.

19:38:25 mircea_popescu: mebbe i should dig that article where i murder some guy over leaving out the outside paran or something.

19:38:25 gabriel_laddel: the only reasonable basis for discussing such things is how much power they afford you

19:38:42 mircea_popescu: whether "they're right" ? what are you, hitler ?

19:39:43 mircea_popescu: the right structure is that structure which expresses the sum total of all the concepts in can express in the smallest total count of expression units. note that both fields being infinite, this is a difficult comparison to evaluate.

19:40:29 mircea_popescu: it's even difficult to establish what kids of infinite are involved.

19:40:34 mircea_popescu: kinds*

19:41:06 gabriel_laddel: relevent: http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm

19:41:07 assbot: Notation as a Tool of Thought ... ( http://bit.ly/1C7CRvk )

19:42:13 mircea_popescu: aye, i suspect notation and structure are actually closer married than we generally realise.

19:42:34 asciilifeform: lisp notation of basic arithmetic << one of the most common n00b failures-to-grok. (+ 1 2 3 4 5) not only puts less mileage on keyboard than 1+2+3+4+5, but nukes the abomination of having arbitrary orders of evaluation

19:42:55 asciilifeform: programmer enters the syntax tree directly.

19:42:59 gabriel_laddel: Hmm.. This is what I was attempting to communicate.

19:42:59 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but feelings were the criteria.

19:43:04 asciilifeform: pheelingz

19:43:17 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: eh, that was a footnote.

19:43:35 gabriel_laddel: That said, I've had the experience several times of reading fraudsters or the logs, not immediately grokking it, returning a day later to have it all 'click'. I'm thinking that might happen here.

19:43:55 mircea_popescu: you know it's not your trial for being a badman, this.

19:44:20 gabriel_laddel: sorry?

19:44:31 gabriel_laddel: (I don't parse that)

19:45:01 mircea_popescu: all the various foregoing rants are not directed at you personally as if you were somehow in ther wrong on some score.

19:45:19 gabriel_laddel: wtf is this, we're discussing a footnote in something I posted.

19:45:43 gabriel_laddel: as for puritanism, sure, not directed at me entirely.

19:45:51 mircea_popescu: neither, no.

19:46:38 mircea_popescu: anyway : the quote you took carries a certain meaning in its original context (physics - esp "natural" is a term of art in physics) and is an entirely different thing in the new context (coding). i fully agree with the quote as it is on the source blog

19:46:52 mircea_popescu: when put together with the nix discussion on github it gives me spots on the spline.

19:46:55 mircea_popescu: odd how this works.

19:47:05 mircea_popescu: same exact fucking quote, as in, string.

19:47:15 gabriel_laddel: Ah.

19:47:53 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: random: but I recall you said you don't like driving so you don't. You're driven. Do you ever "want" to drive in some ideal scenario? A racetrack or something?

19:48:07 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller notrly.

19:48:24 asciilifeform: the 'nixos' thing is about the same kind, and degree, of contribution to culture as the soviet dogs with extra heads sewn on. with the difference that the latter still have the former beat in the purpose they're really fit for - chimeras to scare small children with

19:48:51 thestringpuller: guess it's an american phenomenon. I find I hate driving in traffic. But lemme open up a sports car at 120-130 MPH somewhere "Top Gear" style and I have a blast.

19:49:05 thestringpuller: too many action movies as a child I 'spose

19:49:14 mircea_popescu: so take up bobsleigh. better for your health.

19:49:28 gabriel_laddel: " As far as I can tell, were one to extrapolate from the given information to a set of concrete requirements we see that NixOS plans to rewrite the build scripts for every version of every project on unix. Again, this is insane. The correct thing to do in this situation is to realize the utter impossibility of the task that has been set forth and re-evaluate one's approach.[1]" << [1] links to the quote previously d

19:49:29 gabriel_laddel: iscussed.

19:49:47 asciilifeform: !up gabriel_laddel

19:49:47 mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel

19:49:52 gabriel_laddel: ty

19:49:54 mircea_popescu: yep, which is why i said tis not about you.

19:50:40 mircea_popescu: in any case : the space of things physics has to represent is in point of fact narrower than the space of things computer programs have to represent.

19:50:55 mircea_popescu: we know this to be true, because you can have mmorpgs.

19:51:54 asciilifeform: now the next phase of moon-chair-stacking, that nix may or may not have yet entered, is to decide that the turd they have created and are doomed to dine on is in fact a sausage, and to lash out angrily at folks pointing out the actual facts

19:52:09 mircea_popescu: first stage is next stage.

19:53:02 asciilifeform: 'yes we reached the moon, who said we weren't talking about that one [points to moon painted on ceiling of mental institution]'

19:53:43 mircea_popescu: i think we're in the mental institution. they're outside. cheaper this way, more of them.

19:54:52 mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel you seriously thinking of implementing a sane pgp ?

19:55:11 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: eventually, yes.

19:55:24 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: as for now, I just want to have a clear idea of what the interface is, what the problems are etc.

19:55:27 mircea_popescu: i wanna read the design documents for this.

19:55:36 *: asciilifeform wishes to point out that a 'sane pgp' will not be pgp-compatible. because much of the insanity lies in the standard itself.

19:55:42 mircea_popescu: this is granted.

19:56:41 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I'v M-x rembered (or something) the previous thread on the matter for when I return to it.

19:56:41 cazalla: ;;later tell bingoboingo hey, remember that fish i told you about? hooked and landed it after a few days :)

19:56:42 gribble: The operation succeeded.

19:58:12 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: you had a alternate name for gossipd based on russian theater that had some relation to the nazis. I couldn't find the wiki article again, care to point me to it?

19:58:41 mircea_popescu: !up bitstein

19:59:04 mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i take this is going to be lisp, as in not scheme, not clojure, cl ?

19:59:33 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: CL + C when necessary.

20:00:14 mircea_popescu: do they mix ?

20:00:18 gabriel_laddel: ya

20:02:53 gabriel_laddel: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/

20:02:53 assbot: CFFI - The Common Foreign Function Interface ... ( http://bit.ly/1C7FP3c )

20:04:51 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: not a theatre. the 'red orchestra'

20:05:04 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: which wasn't any kind of orchestra but a spy network

20:05:18 mircea_popescu: ie, the illegal residents of ww2 ?

20:05:27 asciilifeform: aha

20:05:59 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: thank you, this is what I wanted.

20:06:16 mircea_popescu: so total noob here, but. the way cffi works is you compile your c stuff as dynamic objects and then put the headers in your lisp program ? or what ?

20:06:38 *: asciilifeform has no idea why any of the discussed projects would require cffi

20:07:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because the guy says so lol. why else ?

20:08:29 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: gossipd requires C. PGP, CL (at least, this is where I'd start).

20:08:46 gabriel_laddel: cffi to bridge the two if needed, but only then.

20:09:03 mircea_popescu: you mean to bridge ro and gossipd ?

20:09:04 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: when i declared that it ought to be writte in c, i meant -entirely-

20:09:15 asciilifeform: so as to fit on ludicrously small embedded machinery

20:09:33 asciilifeform: and have wholly deterministic heapless memory behaviour

20:09:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cl can't do these ? :D

20:09:46 asciilifeform: but nowhere is it written that anyone must listen to this

20:10:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you can write cl without 'cons' but this is like english without letter 'e'

20:11:04 mircea_popescu: four vowels should be enough for vryon.

20:11:11 asciilifeform: vrn

20:13:12 asciilifeform: and when i say 'c', i'm not talking about gnarly turdalicious gpg-style c

20:13:15 asciilifeform: but clean c

20:13:18 asciilifeform: obligatory: https://gist.github.com/pete/665971

20:13:21 assbot: Various implementations of the 'cat' command, for comparison. ... ( http://bit.ly/1A70iIK )

20:13:38 gabriel_laddel: My current plan for dealing with these projects: The haskell package Language.C.AST parses C99 entirely, taking into account all GCC extensions. I'm going to pay someone to add a sexpr backend to it so I can work it into my CL toolchain.

20:13:38 gabriel_laddel: As for what language I'll be using on any given project, it will be determined entirely by what is correct for the project. If I hack something out in CL, but switch it over to C, I'll do that. If it makes sense to release a protopye that is hacked together C+CL+CFFI I'll do that. In any case, both of these come after getting the #b-a distro finished.

20:13:40 asciilifeform: 'clean' as in, i whip out a stick and point to a line, and you can tell my why it's there.

20:14:11 asciilifeform: haskell package <<< pay someone to add a sexpr backend to it so I can work it into my CL toolchain ...

20:14:16 *: asciilifeform head-desks

20:14:20 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: ?

20:14:31 asciilifeform: what part of 'minimal' is so hard to understand?

20:14:35 asciilifeform: what part of 'fits in head'?

20:14:49 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: Sorry, I was being less than clear - this is only for development.

20:14:55 mircea_popescu: sometimes i fantasize about buying an old english castle, turning it into a computing school for nude 18 to 22 yo ladies, and putting alf in charge of it, with a flexible bamboo cane.

20:15:05 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel, et al: try to remember why all of these things need redoing in the first place

20:15:08 asciilifeform: !

20:15:21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: signmeup.

20:15:22 mircea_popescu: then after a decade i come by and go... "why did she write this!"

20:15:42 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: You've never desired to query over a bunch of gnarly C code?

20:16:04 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: query?

20:16:26 asciilifeform: for the purpose of taking a flamethrower to it and replacing with something sane - grep + eyes has always sufficed

20:16:29 mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel his idea being i suspect that c code you wish to query over should just be quarried over yonder hill

20:16:32 mircea_popescu: let the wolves have it.

20:16:36 asciilifeform: any other purpose i'm not the least bit interested in

20:16:38 asciilifeform: aha

20:16:40 asciilifeform: what mircea_popescu ^ said.

20:16:41 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: Yes. Show me all structures that look like this. Pattern match against structures, rewrite them as so.

20:16:51 asciilifeform: automated rewrite is equivalent to original turd

20:16:55 mircea_popescu: an automated deturdifier ?

20:16:57 asciilifeform: in that all the turdaliciousness remains in place

20:17:16 asciilifeform: it is like suggesting an automated converter of reddit spew to interesting literature

20:17:30 *: asciilifeform off to meatspace for a spell, unfortunately not for any reasons pertaining to ancient castles

20:17:33 mircea_popescu: meh, it' never work, no character growth.

20:18:00 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I'm assuming, at least for now, that I'm going to have to /look/ at the current PGP sources (thus the C sexprast ). This has no bearing on what will be released other than - I will do what makes sense given the situation.

20:18:31 mircea_popescu: so automated code reader. hey, might work.

20:18:57 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: I have some code now that converts javascript to parenscript

20:19:17 gabriel_laddel: it, and nothing else will ever be a substitute for thought.

20:19:21 gabriel_laddel: merely an aid.

20:19:35 mircea_popescu: right, i see what you're doing there.

20:21:22 thestringpuller: !up gabriel_laddel

20:22:11 gabriel_laddel: "As for what language I'll be using on any given project, it will be determined entirely by what is correct for the project."

20:23:28 trinque: gabriel_laddel: how do you find using parenscript?

20:23:57 trinque: I've tried the clojure/clojurescript combo and was thrilled to be using the same language on both ends

20:24:13 gabriel_laddel: trinque: Modifying clojurescript is god-awful.

20:24:20 gabriel_laddel: modifying parenscript isn't terrible.

20:24:35 trinque: gabriel_laddel: the outputted JS is more comprehensible?

20:24:47 gabriel_laddel: trinque: well, there is that too.

20:25:42 gabriel_laddel: trinque: in any case, I hate everything about the browser.

20:25:53 trinque: that goes without saying

20:26:59 mircea_popescu: the browser is not unlikely what'd have happened if the beduins had discovered dna alteration and there was no interstellar void.

20:27:16 mircea_popescu: camels floating in space on half butterfly/half bat wings

20:31:51 gabriel_laddel: As for PGP, I'm assuming that I'm going to have to spend a decent amount of time with the codebase and reading the spec. Perhaps not.

20:32:00 gabriel_laddel: ..

20:32:18 gabriel_laddel: Why might one want to see the C ast? Let's say that we've got a codebase like the linux kernel, or opengl drivers. You know that somewhere you've got some stuff that talks to the hardware, but grep returns false positives. You instead pull the ast into memory, query across it for the bits your looking for. False positives now indicate something about the language (i.e., that I don't understand it as well as I though

20:32:18 gabriel_laddel: t) rather than just a false positive. Again, I've never written C, and perhaps the ast is so complicated that it's actually impossible to get any useful information out of it, but my current experience suggests that having this ability is a good idea. Building something like `slime-who-calls' suddenly becomes simple.

20:32:49 mircea_popescu: im not even sure pgp has a spec.

20:33:10 mircea_popescu: if you recall it was a hurried samizdat

20:33:22 gabriel_laddel: kk. I should be discussing this in design documents anyways.

20:36:25 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> so take up bobsleigh. better for your health. << or bicycles, more actual physical connection of your meat with the dynamic systems in question. airplanes and helicopters worth looking into as well

20:36:50 mircea_popescu: actual planes, how do you call them

20:37:09 mircea_popescu: gliders

20:37:16 ben_vulpes: oh yeah gliders are also awesome

20:37:49 ben_vulpes: i like things without much by way of engine.

20:38:27 mircea_popescu: hang gliders esp

20:39:01 ben_vulpes: hang glider stability dynamics are interesting, but kinda neutered.

20:39:25 mircea_popescu: no i meant for your muscle contact thing

20:39:27 ben_vulpes: sorta like the "chair with prop hanging from parasail" design.

20:39:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81500 @ 0.00040982 = 33.4003 BTC [+]

20:39:39 mircea_popescu: well, you gotta move to pilot it

20:39:59 ben_vulpes: don't get me wrong, they're fly as hell.

20:40:20 ben_vulpes: just...limited subset of the control space.

20:42:53 ben_vulpes: !up bitcoinquestions

20:42:59 ben_vulpes: got some lulz for me today?

21:14:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46105 @ 0.00040611 = 18.7237 BTC [-] {2}

21:16:46 ben_vulpes: !up bitcoinquestions

21:16:57 decimation: re: parasail < I've heard of incidents where pilots of parasails fly too close to moving trains. They get caught in the vortex and then crash

21:17:24 decimation: I mean paraglider, not parasail I guess

21:17:55 bitcoinquestions: If I generate a key on a MAC OS that I use for other purposes is it at all secure? Or should I not even bother generating keys if I'm not on a linux distro?

21:18:33 danielpbarron: is the machine connected to a network?

21:18:47 ben_vulpes: decimation: aeronautics is full of exciting! new! innovative! ways to die.

21:19:18 ben_vulpes: i saw a gents quadrotor get sucked into its own downdraft near a wall one time, and slam itself repeatedly into said wall while its pilot tried to rescue it

21:19:29 decimation: bitcoinquestions: it is my understanding that macOs uses freebsd's rng (Yarrow), but you are implictly trusting apple...

21:20:07 decimation: ben_vulpes: yeah we ground-bound folk don't appreciate the air movements around objects

21:22:20 decimation: in particular with paragliding, I think that it attracts a certain set of folk who might not consider safety as a top priority

21:23:07 ben_vulpes: there's also the squirrelsuit insanity

21:23:42 decimation: folks who volunteer to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft?

21:25:02 ben_vulpes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N9t5qOSzCU << this sort of thing

21:25:04 assbot: The best wing suit /skydive from you tube PART1 - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1A2ZFl5 )

21:25:22 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: fwiw there aren't many orcs in the rural bits of ussa, and one can shoot trespassers on sign in those provinces too << Different kind, even tolkien had different kinds of orcs

21:25:48 decimation: ben_vulpes: lol that's nuts

21:26:10 decimation: it's an interesting use of ground effect though

21:26:27 ben_vulpes: that's not ground effect if i understand the mechanism in question correctly.

21:27:01 ben_vulpes: GE entails actually riding on a compressed cushion between the foil and the ground, not the lift off the foil alone.

21:27:16 ben_vulpes: (again, i am not an expert in this area)

21:27:46 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform not so foolish as to think about 'homogeneous enforcement environments', knows that there are, e.g., vast deserts in usa where folks set off trucks full of dynamite for amusement, etc. << Sometimes law enforcement attention comes to these folks too.

21:28:29 decimation: ben_vulpes: yeah I guess that's what I thought was happening when he gets close to the ground, but there's probably not enough of a 'cushion' to do the turns they are doing

21:28:50 decimation: it strikes me that if the wind suddenly shifts they could easily bash their heads into a rock

21:29:24 ben_vulpes: it's not really clear to me how close they actually are to terra.

21:29:46 ben_vulpes: in some places, very close. those places also look very steep.

21:30:00 ben_vulpes: sink rate being a thing; angle of attack being a thing...

21:30:09 decimation: aye

21:56:54 BingoBoingo: decimation: in the us gas heat is common, but typical large us house has a 'forced air' system that moves heated air around the house << Natural gas backup generators for homes are not unheard of here, occasionally going up to home's normal electricity consumption.

21:57:19 BingoBoingo: The things live burried in yard

21:58:01 decimation: BingoBoingo: yeah for whatever reason natural gas distribution seems much more reliable than electric distribution

21:59:07 mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestions in general a machine is secure if its secure. linux is not a magic pill. as danielpbarron suggests, not connecting it to the internet helps a lot, but also makes it more difficult.

21:59:18 BingoBoingo: decimation: Well failures of the natural gas system tend to be more... catastrophic... I remember as a child the day half of my hometown was evacuated because ditch diggers broke an incoming pipe at the edge of town.

21:59:22 mircea_popescu: heh.

21:59:42 decimation: BingoBoingo: yeah that's true. occasionally a house explodes too

21:59:56 BingoBoingo: Or city block

22:00:31 mircea_popescu: a total of nine exploded in a decade in timisoara (tiny town, 300k)

22:03:21 []bot: Bet created: "Gold below $1175 on March 1st" http://bitbet.us/bet/1118/

22:10:37 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: the best chemistry lab, were it to be maintained as a collection of bottles going "stuff" "Good stuff!" "REagenT" etc 18:23:12 mircea_popescu: would not really work. << This is why other big cause of home explosion is meth "labs"

22:11:29 mircea_popescu: decimation> in particular with paragliding, I think that it attracts a certain set of folk who might not consider safety as a top priority << i think paragliding is much like hunting, a sport intended for empty land.

22:11:46 mircea_popescu: you wouldn't go blasting quailshot all over the mall either, would you.

22:12:44 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yup. people trusting shit to memory that are also actively attackin it chemically.

22:16:00 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: that Breaking Bad tho

22:16:49 BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Illustrates an important difference. "Anyone can do" and "Few can do well"

22:17:40 thestringpuller: At somepoint I thunk you better call saul

22:19:10 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact. << Silimar event in middle school. Bigger kid pesters me for days about how he's

22:19:10 BingoBoingo: going to fight me. When he finally starts throwing punches can't keep his eyes open long enough to hit anything or avoid going to the ground and getting stomped

22:19:57 mircea_popescu: i didn't beat him up, it was kinda incongruous. he had no real quarrel, posed no real threat and besides, as far as teh adults were concerned i was a silver spoony gentleman.

22:22:53 BingoBoingo: Well, I'd been annoyed by his build up to this event for a few day, twas enough of a greivance.

22:23:48 mircea_popescu: makes sense

22:26:08 BingoBoingo: School administrator was puzzled by the combatants being "A" students without long disciplinary records didn't see fit to issue discipline to either party as the aggressor learned he wasn't fit to aggress.

22:34:31 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact. << Airstrip One must first be cast into the ocean

22:34:52 BingoBoingo: ^mircea_popescu: sometimes i fantasize about buying an old english castle, turning it into a computing school for nude 18 to 22 yo ladies, and putting alf in charge of it, with a flexible bamboo cane. << wrong pasta buffer

22:35:01 mircea_popescu: lol you think ?

22:38:19 decimation: from the slatestarcodex guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_the_Calling_of_an_Engineer

22:38:21 assbot: Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/190fPzt )

22:38:41 decimation: "The ritual traces its origins to professor H. E. T. Haultain of the University of Toronto, who believed and persuaded other members of the Engineering Institute of Canada that there needed to be a ceremony and standard of ethics developed for graduating engineers. The need was patently obvious in the light of the Quebec Bridge disasters."

22:39:41 decimation: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1299 < "One clever soul suggested applying this doctrine to yet a fourth profession, creating a kind of “programmer priest.” Perhaps one day there will indeed be someone you can trust to pronounce – truthfully and competently – that a crypto-system is strong, that a protocol has not been diddled, that your computer serves only a single master."

22:39:43 assbot: Loper OS » Don’t Blame the Mice. ... ( http://bit.ly/190fXPr )

22:41:31 mircea_popescu: slowly inching towards that. but more like conclave.

22:50:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "In the United States polite letters was a cult of the Brahmins of Boston, with William Dean Howells at the helm of the Atlantic." << Release Date: August 20, 2006 [EBook #3190]

22:50:59 mircea_popescu: apparently "brahmin" has a lengthy usage to describe the cult of the dead cow of massachussetts ?

22:51:49 mircea_popescu: (produced by one David Widger)

22:52:04 decimation: moldbug repurposed (re-re-repurposed?) the word "brahmin" to mean something like 'modern liberal elite'

22:52:19 mircea_popescu: signed Franklin J. Meine

22:52:31 mircea_popescu: dead about the time shockley was splitting up.

22:52:37 mircea_popescu: decimation this is exactly the usage.

22:53:07 decimation: but before that it was used to describe Massachusetts men who spoke with a particular accent and had a particular affinity with the anglo colonizers

22:53:55 mircea_popescu: as in "Boston Brahmin" ?

22:54:00 decimation: aye

22:54:39 mircea_popescu: The term was coined by the physician and writer Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., in an 1860 article in the Atlantic Monthly.

22:54:58 mircea_popescu: ic.

22:55:18 decimation: actual boston brahmins talking > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfR4DLXYpCw

22:55:20 assbot: A dying race- two Boston Brahmins converse (from AMERICAN TO - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1DU01aK )

22:56:22 mircea_popescu: they sound australian to me.

22:56:51 decimation: I guess that's what you get from fifth-generation englishmen removed from england

22:57:02 decimation: perhaps farther removed actually

23:04:24 mircea_popescu: thye also sound quite idiotic, in retrospect.

23:04:36 mircea_popescu: dickens vs austen ? "o look, my toy car is faster than your toy car!"

23:07:35 decimation: yeah the conversation topic is quite inane.

23:07:39 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: i love your quotes on the US being broke

23:07:48 thestringpuller: I say that to cops a lot when they pull me over for being black

23:08:00 mircea_popescu: does it work out ?

23:08:04 thestringpuller: "You're broke nigga, you gonna really persecute the nigga payin your salary"

23:08:12 mircea_popescu: lmao

23:08:23 mircea_popescu: !up Quantinium

23:08:37 mircea_popescu: yeah, that's a true old courthouse favourite, "i pay your salary"

23:08:51 thestringpuller: Usually cop is like "You got anything valuable in the vehicle?"

23:09:00 thestringpuller: "Or on your person?"

23:10:02 mircea_popescu: !up bitcoinquestions

23:10:32 decimation: thestringpuller: they are fishing for some property to indict. maybe the local cops want to have some new toys

23:10:52 bitcoinquestions: yo i dug through your posts on fraudsters about how you think Gavin is sabotaging bitcoin or whatever for wanting to increase the block size. Are you afraid of DDOS attacks because there are not enough full nodes?

23:11:21 thestringpuller: bitcoinquestions: could you elaborate on your question?

23:11:57 mircea_popescu: !up mandarin

23:12:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52062 @ 0.00039986 = 20.8175 BTC [-] {3}

23:12:08 mircea_popescu: i am not afraid.

23:13:54 thestringpuller: !b 1

23:13:55 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/37P8WY9.txt )

23:17:51 danielpbarron: funny he mentions ddos

23:17:57 decimation: it is, isn't it?

23:19:23 decimation: in 1790 mr. ddos would have been on one of the sans-culotte's murder gangs

23:20:00 mircea_popescu: hardly.

23:24:20 decimation: well, there's a certain lefty predilection toward paranoia/violence that seems stable over the centuries

23:25:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48450 @ 0.00039723 = 19.2458 BTC [-]

23:26:11 mircea_popescu: i suspect it's just narcissistic rage.

23:26:17 mircea_popescu: "what do you mean i am stupid ?!?!?!?!"

23:26:46 decimation: 'no ur stupid, imma ddos you loic!'

23:44:34 mircea_popescu: !up bitcoinquestions

23:44:41 mircea_popescu: get a cloak will you.

23:44:59 bitcoinquestions: A cloak?

23:45:55 bitcoinquestions: You mean hide my IP address?

23:47:12 mircea_popescu: yes.

23:49:01 bitcoinquestions: Were you flooding my IP address?

23:54:47 mircea_popescu: nope.

23:54:56 mircea_popescu: !s ddos

23:54:57 assbot: 485 results for 'ddos' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ddos

23:55:02 bitcoinquestions: mircea_popescu: ? I need to know whether or not to call the cable company :D

23:55:02 mircea_popescu: this is a recurring topic here.

23:55:19 mircea_popescu: there's, intermittently, some unidentified derp that floods noobs