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Transcript for 09-02-2016, 1280 lines:

00:16:10 mircea_popescu: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/cl-untold-story.html << man this kent dude is the most tiresome stickler... i've never seen such a retarded if endless introduction.

00:16:12 assbot: Common Lisp: The Untold Story ... ( http://bit.ly/1S8to44 )

00:17:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not so much the result of pitman but of the subject

00:18:27 mircea_popescu: i dunno...

00:19:03 asciilifeform: the process whereby we got the cl standard is every bit as ugly as the standard itself

00:19:30 mircea_popescu: ah in that sense

00:19:31 mircea_popescu: aite

00:20:04 mircea_popescu: "Someone once claimed to me that the problems with standards work is that the process is so exhausting that no one who ever finishes the task wants to try another, so everyone involved is always brand new and no knowledge ever propagates from cycle to cycle. This isn?t literally true, but there is still some truth to it." << and THE REASON FOR THIS is that, quote from same source, "This is a story about personal hist

00:20:04 mircea_popescu: ory and growth. It might on occasion appear to portray certain individuals?primarily myself, but perhaps others?in an unflattering light. Part of the point of this paper is that we have each grown through our respective experiences. There is no intent to disparage anyone."

00:20:11 mircea_popescu: with that inept attitude, it'll only get worse./

00:30:33 asciilifeform: the sheer and obvious futility of the standardization process, as it existed then and there, selected against the smart, the intellectually honest, and in general anybody 'with theorems to prove'

00:30:56 mircea_popescu: paint rocks!

00:30:56 asciilifeform: naggum understood this, i think, when it was too late

00:31:33 asciilifeform: this is more like 'paint snow'

00:31:54 mircea_popescu: heh

00:33:51 asciilifeform: reading the block cipher thread, on shitdot, and, mega-unsurprise - not one interesting thing said.

00:34:50 mircea_popescu: but many comments! visits! uniques! Social media! progress! apple could buy russia!

00:35:17 asciilifeform: many many eyes! (tm) (r)

00:37:03 asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu feels like hammering in the point, he could even offer a prize for breaking aes

00:37:17 mircea_popescu: lol it's ok.

00:39:30 asciilifeform: it is a mega-conundrum, in my mind, i know for a fact that there live at least half a dozen people who could, potentially, supply intelligent commentary. but none of them i expect to appear here.

00:40:27 mircea_popescu: and why is that ?

00:40:55 asciilifeform: same reason, i expect, as taleb

00:40:59 asciilifeform: but somebody ought write to bernstein.

00:41:17 mircea_popescu: tell you what - the problem is not unlike "getting mp to look at bitcoin"

00:41:23 mircea_popescu: multiple people worked on this for months.

00:41:28 mircea_popescu: and i still principally credit chance.

00:41:41 asciilifeform: logical.

00:41:44 mircea_popescu: in the form of sane people and an impressive channel to join into.

00:41:47 mircea_popescu: now, the CHANCE part we got well covered.

00:41:55 mircea_popescu: the rest... what can i say. takes time.

00:46:57 mircea_popescu: "ne day while working with the MACSYMA group, I was around when someone was assigning offices?or desks, really, since offices were generally shared. ?Where is mine?? I asked, somewhat jokingly. As far as I knew, only graduate students were entitled to offices. The person doing the arranging didn?t realize I was joking and responded in seriousness that he didn?t know and would try to find one for me. Of course

00:46:57 mircea_popescu: , I immediately went to the several other undergraduates working on the same project and said, ?they don?t know we?re not supposed to have offices.? But soon we all did have offices, or at least desks in offices with dedicated VT52 terminals atop them. My office was shared with Guy Steele, co-inventor of the SCHEME programming language, and JonL White, author and maintainer of the MACLISP compiler.

00:46:57 mircea_popescu: I spent nearly all of my hours at the Lab, often to the detriment of my class work, which is why I took 5 years to graduate. During my time there, I worked mostly for credit, only very occasionally for tiny amounts of money?about $5 per hour for a small number of hours a week programming MACSYMA, as I recall. Most of my time was as a volunteer, and in that time I did some additional work on MACSYMA but also some pers

00:47:04 mircea_popescu: onal projects.

00:47:06 mircea_popescu: During all of this, I picked up a lot of trivia about the MACLISP language, which was not very well-documented. David Moon had written a manual a few years earlier, but it was out of date and featured primarily the Honeywell Multics implementation of MACLISP, not the PDP10 implementation. Also, as it happened, Don Knuth had just come out with TEX typesetting language and I was looking for possible uses for it, so I att

00:47:11 mircea_popescu: empted to set up some formats for writing a manual. When that produced something pleasant to look at, it occurred to me that I should just make a whole manual about MACLISP."

00:47:14 mircea_popescu: finally.

00:48:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25183 @ 0.00057136 = 14.3886 BTC [-] {2}

00:50:33 mircea_popescu: "As of next Thursday, ITS will be flushed in favor of TOPS-10. Please update your programs."

00:50:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just so you know, ima refer to this thing liberally whenever you bitch at me about things.

00:52:52 mircea_popescu: "Much later, in 1993, the specific online design processes we used were later studied and written up by researchers at the MIT Sloan School [Yates93]." << word.

00:53:01 asciilifeform: wai wut

00:53:30 asciilifeform: btw recall, rms never forgave the destruction of its

03:04:06 mircea_popescu: !up Howdy__

03:06:31 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo " for it's New Madrid, Missouri smelter "

03:55:55 asciilifeform: soooo

03:56:13 asciilifeform: who's for a 'malleus II' that nukes, e.g., idiots spewing http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option#0316 ?

03:56:15 assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option/src/main.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q649zf )

03:56:28 asciilifeform: and http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option#0312 , etc

03:56:29 assbot: Satoshi asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option/src/main.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q64fqF )

03:57:02 asciilifeform: 'who is not with us, is against us' (tm) (r) (lenin)

03:58:13 asciilifeform: this would walk the razor's edge of danger, in re splitting trb into own parallel universe, however

03:58:27 asciilifeform: ergo it ought to be a selectable thing, ideally.

03:58:50 asciilifeform: but overall it would make sense to have a lenin knob

03:59:34 asciilifeform: where, say, 0 is maximally permissive (disables malleus, even) and 10 is 'any sign of deviation from trb conventions --> permaban'

04:03:37 asciilifeform: if this thing were an actual multithreaded proggy, we could drop the priority of vermin instead of dropping'em entirely, but we have what we have.

04:29:00 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo " for it's New Madrid, Missouri smelter " << ty fxd

04:29:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the definition of "nonstandard tx" is iffy.

04:30:17 mircea_popescu: so far it'd be a knob connected to not very much. once we have an actually meaningful protocol, then.

04:31:37 *: BingoBoingo thinks rather than 'malleus II' this would be 'malleus differentpersonium'

05:01:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28900 @ 0.00056712 = 16.3898 BTC [-] {2}

05:25:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6755 @ 0.00056712 = 3.8309 BTC [-] {2}

07:30:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26133 @ 0.00056357 = 14.7278 BTC [-]

08:27:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14650 @ 0.00056624 = 8.2954 BTC [+] {4}

08:55:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11350 @ 0.00057179 = 6.4898 BTC [+] {4}

08:56:03 deedbot-: [Qntra] "Bitcoin Group" Fiat Mining IPO ~70% Under Goal - http://qntra.net/2016/02/bitcoin-group-fiat-mining-ipo-70-under-goal/

09:01:53 punkman: "At least, if you pay Apple’s premium for Apple design, you do get more design than you get from Microsoft, Google and other laptop manufacturers.  It’s not design created in your interest or for your convenience, but there certainly is plenty of it."

09:06:17 punkman: http://visegradrevue.eu/sobotkaleaks-boiling-the-czech-prime-minister/

09:06:19 assbot: SobotkaLeaks: Boiling the Czech Prime Minister » V4Revue ... ( http://bit.ly/1XfgiRY )

09:13:11 punkman: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CavCl3PWcAEuJ_7.jpg

09:13:12 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1T2z8LC )

09:15:30 deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Bitcoin to top $600 before Jul 2016 - http://bitbet.us/bet/1232/bitcoin-to-top-600-before-jul-2016/#b23

09:19:11 BingoBoingo: https://sli.mg/2Y1UQe

09:19:12 assbot: Image hosted on Sli.mg ... ( http://bit.ly/1XfhCnY )

09:22:01 punkman: "-I'm the 38th author... -Wow, that sucks. -I hadn't finished. I'm the 38th author called "Wang" -Oh." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26799652

09:22:04 assbot: Guidelines for the use and interpretation of assays for monitoring autophagy (3rd edition). - PubMed - NCBI ... ( http://bit.ly/1T2A4Q8 )

09:52:44 BingoBoingo: lol

10:09:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00057615 = 2.8231 BTC [+] {2}

10:44:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00057661 = 5.6508 BTC [+] {3}

10:53:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6244 @ 0.00057695 = 3.6025 BTC [+]

11:20:54 BingoBoingo: ANd the AWS cost minimization wank returns https://archive.is/55zxR

11:20:55 assbot: Start a Classic node in AWS in under 20 minutes - blockchain included! : btc ... ( http://bit.ly/20lFOoE )

11:28:25 BingoBoingo: In other butthurt chronicles https://archive.is/N0HXA

11:28:27 assbot: People so upset about the difficulty they are SMASHING their miners to pieces ... ( http://bit.ly/20lGzhj )

11:32:05 ben_vulpes: blockchain inclolded

11:33:32 punkman: ;;bc,stats

11:33:35 gribble: Current Blocks: 397535 | Current Difficulty: 1.4411644784734866E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: None | Next Difficulty In: None blocks | Next Difficulty In About: None | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

11:34:26 punkman: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/speed-small-lin.png

11:34:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KCxxuF )

11:35:02 punkman: diff only tripled last 12months, bitcoin's dead

11:38:25 punkman: ETH at 0.0098 btc :/ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=22-01-2016#1381117

11:38:25 assbot: Logged on 22-01-2016 16:20:52; punkman: terminal: just salty that we didn't buy mp's cheap eth

11:39:22 BingoBoingo: Brave camho ventures into the bitcointalk cesspool https://archive.is/64HCm

11:39:23 assbot: Cryptoqueen - Let's talk about how hot *I* am. [NSFW] ... ( http://bit.ly/1KCy3J2 )

11:42:56 BingoBoingo: Spoiler alert, it was a trap.

11:43:08 punkman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh77zevm6cY

11:43:09 assbot: Jolie Holland - Old Fashioned Morphine - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1KCymU9 )

11:46:29 shinohai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400226 <<< get her to come put sharpie in pooper for you BingoBoingo

11:46:29 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 11:42:56; BingoBoingo: Spoiler alert, it was a trap.

11:49:45 BingoBoingo: shinohai: Nah, blew too much money on that when I was drinking. Gotta hodl.

11:52:11 shinohai: I stay away from the Bitcoin ladies meself. Gotta save and buy new equips.

12:02:30 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400190 << trivial - if trb marks a tx nonstandard - it is nonstandard!11

12:02:30 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 04:30:17; mircea_popescu: so far it'd be a knob connected to not very much. once we have an actually meaningful protocol, then.

12:05:32 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400212 << recall, you can find my aws banhammer on the ml.

12:05:32 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 11:20:54; BingoBoingo: ANd the AWS cost minimization wank returns https://archive.is/55zxR

12:06:17 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ALready got it deployed and refresh banlist occasionally. Just like the lulz of their image only existing for single AWS site in Oregon.

12:08:53 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400214 << this may actually be a rational thing to do - scorched earth

12:08:53 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 11:28:25; BingoBoingo: In other butthurt chronicles https://archive.is/N0HXA

12:09:43 asciilifeform: in light of rumour of usg buying up cheap old asic

12:09:55 BingoBoingo: Seriously, because fuck Dave who buys old mining equipment at a loss and has his powerbill paid by Satan

12:10:00 BingoBoingo: Not a rumor

12:10:02 asciilifeform: aha

12:10:09 BingoBoingo: Megabigpower is the OP

12:10:40 BingoBoingo: Dave, lesser partner previous asic scam venture fronts it.

12:11:33 BingoBoingo: Back in late 2012 there were 4 kinda serious presenting operations promising Asics. Asicminer, Avalon, and BFL. Dave was with the other one.

12:14:00 asciilifeform: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CavCl3PWcAEuJ_7.jpg << paulgrahamocalypse??!!

12:14:00 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1T2z8LC )

12:14:06 BingoBoingo: Blame for the failure went to the venture's major partner Tom

12:14:23 BingoBoingo: Sweet

12:16:45 asciilifeform: re: 'apple fans coming to hate apple software', this is when folks learn that ~liking~ is optional: you use a sov institution because ~no alternative~

12:23:37 asciilifeform: (and note, if, satan help you, you need a laptop comp that ~actually works~, or a pocket terminal that doesn't resemble an infested xp box, there is very much no alternative)

12:28:15 punkman: except it no longer "actually works"?

12:29:04 asciilifeform: vs the supposed alternatives - works

12:31:43 asciilifeform: if i need a unix box with lid suspend, stuck with crapple. ditto re: sane handling of hotplugged external displays. and 1,01 other items.

12:37:51 asciilifeform: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11061111 << lulzy, full of folks crying over linux circa early 2000s

12:37:53 assbot: Apple fans are coming to hate Apple software | Hacker News ... ( http://bit.ly/20HUjse )

13:01:24 ben_vulpes: takes a rather lot to override apple-scale stockholm

13:05:21 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400258 << what stockholm. It's the only working portable comp vendor.

13:05:21 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 13:01:24; ben_vulpes: takes a rather lot to override apple-scale stockholm

13:08:28 ben_vulpes: not apple stockholm i suppose nearly so much as usa stockholm

13:09:00 ben_vulpes: i for instance just bought three of the things, but only because of the Apple Developer Ratchet

13:09:53 asciilifeform: actually the usa trap is quite similar

13:11:28 ben_vulpes: o yes?

13:11:50 asciilifeform: aha, thinkaboutit

13:12:32 asciilifeform: !s gravity well

13:12:32 assbot: 38 results for 'gravity well' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gravity+well

13:13:32 asciilifeform: incidentally i don't develop for crapple nor ever intend to, and still stuck with it

13:14:31 asciilifeform: in fact, it is for running & building entirely posixy things

13:15:39 ben_vulpes: not irc on the train?

13:16:19 asciilifeform: nah thats what ipnohe is for

13:20:18 BingoBoingo: NSFL https://i.imgur.com/wUcjjc9.jpg

13:20:18 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlyOYh )

13:20:44 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i've never met a crapple user who despised it as much as i did.

13:20:50 ben_vulpes: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/cam-newton-never-had-a-chance/ << great charts

13:20:52 assbot: Cam Newton Never Had A Chance | FiveThirtyEight ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlyTLD )

13:21:19 asciilifeform: i don't like, need or want the graphics, the idiot skeumorphisms, the 'ease of use', the payware, or the compatibility

13:21:37 ben_vulpes: preach

13:21:47 asciilifeform: i just need a motherfucking knapsack unix box that never has to be powered down, hotplugs displays, and '4k' lcd.

13:21:54 asciilifeform: this is sold by... one vendor.

13:22:52 ben_vulpes: i need a workstation for doing work, and a comms box for doing comms.

13:23:53 asciilifeform: i have a workstation, it is for doing things i actually give half a fuck about.

13:24:13 asciilifeform: and then there is the other box, for work.

13:24:29 asciilifeform: the aluminum anchor.

13:25:28 ben_vulpes: macbook macht frei

13:25:41 asciilifeform: and, speaking of which, bbl.

13:40:18 shinohai: Can any asseteers tell me if this is a worthy SSD? http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-SSD-850-EVO-MZ-75E1T0B-EU/dp/B00P738MUU/ref=dp_ob_title_ce

13:40:20 assbot: Amazon.com: Samsung SSD 850 EVO 1TB, MZ-75E1T0B_EU: Computers & Accessories ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlCkC6 )

13:40:20 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400221 << no, it's just mayogendered. this is the primary cause of butthurt in the obeetus : first year they eat, they increase 10x.

13:40:20 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 11:35:02; punkman: diff only tripled last 12months, bitcoin's dead

13:40:29 *: shinohai not having much SSD experience.

13:40:37 mircea_popescu: but then because of that very increase, ironically, even if they eat 2x as much the 2nd year, they can only maange a measly 3x

13:40:50 mircea_popescu: and it goes downhill from there

13:40:52 mircea_popescu: fuck gravity!

13:41:38 mircea_popescu: !up Steve__

13:42:11 mircea_popescu: shinohai http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=01-02-2016#1393391 << as per teh expert.

13:42:11 assbot: Logged on 01-02-2016 23:00:43; BingoBoingo: SSD market pretty much consists on Samsung, Intel, and other firms that just use surplus parts from samsung

13:42:41 shinohai: Good I must be on right track.

13:42:53 BingoBoingo: shinohai: Should be fine. If used for sensitive purposes RAID it up per alf's advice

13:44:03 mircea_popescu: anyway, looking at the graphs bitcoin ~was~ actually dead march to about sept 2015/

13:44:07 shinohai: I figured why not go ahead and shop for 1TB drive since I am using it for node purposes, though pricier than I had imagined.

13:44:11 mircea_popescu: people are fucking late. shoulda derped about how dead it is back then.

13:44:34 mircea_popescu: shinohai for that reason! 500gb is enough for now. 1tb in a few years, will be cheaper.

13:44:45 BingoBoingo: shinohai: Check Newegg

13:45:05 BingoBoingo: Newegg has 500 for about 150 and 1tb a bit over 300

13:45:47 shinohai: Will do. Also anyone needing me for menial tasks such as proofreading or Spanish-to-English translations contact me plox

13:45:47 BingoBoingo: That one's off by too much on price

13:45:51 mircea_popescu: oh, they're the same price ? nm me then.

13:46:03 shinohai: 300 for 1 TB O.o wow

13:46:07 shinohai: not bad

13:46:13 mircea_popescu: shinohai do you charge a lot and is your spanish very good ?

13:46:15 BingoBoingo: A bit over, but as cheap as I've seen them

13:47:33 shinohai: mircea_popescu: nope I'll do my best to undercut anyone. pussyfreak can vouch for my Spanish if he comes back, being from Spain and all lol.

13:48:00 mircea_popescu: how about you vouch for your spanish. pick any of my articles that discuss argentina and show me!

13:48:05 BingoBoingo: shinohai: The price amazon is selling the evo for is about the price amazon is selling the pro for. The difference between the two is apparently pro gets bigger warranty, hotter running controller (potential point of failure) and derp about longer write endurance

13:49:10 mircea_popescu: write endurance is notably not a major point of interest for bitcoin node ssds. the way it works is that most of the files are stable forever, and you have a hot end you keep adding to. this is a match made in heaven for ssds, they can use the spare capacity to compensate for your rewrites and once done it's done.

13:49:15 shinohai: I was concerned about write endurance because some folks have said ssd's aren't suitable for nodes. :/

13:49:48 mircea_popescu: oddly enough, the io constraindness of the bitcoin makes for better ssd fit.

13:51:15 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400249 << our friend tom van dyke, the sweet blood and tears guy ?

13:51:15 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 12:14:06; BingoBoingo: Blame for the failure went to the venture's major partner Tom

13:51:41 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400247 << all good things have an end ; shitty things have numerous ends.

13:51:41 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 12:14:00; asciilifeform: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CavCl3PWcAEuJ_7.jpg << paulgrahamocalypse??!!

13:52:01 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I believe so. Isn't he the one who did the FPGA thing with BuzzDave and professed to be doing the ASIC thing?

13:52:37 mircea_popescu: anyway, the winds have pointedly turned against apple. the time when they did that "we'll brick your device if you used other parts in it" thing i'd arbitrarily pick as the jumping the shark moment. but in any case : apple is for the next decade a company to sell, not to hold and CERTAINLY not to buy.

13:52:57 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yeh. course, fpga thing even then counted more like amateur hour than anything.

13:53:12 mircea_popescu: which i suspect is the proximate reason no blame attached to buzzdave

13:54:41 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400259 <<< i'm with ben and the whole rest of the world on this. you display a very entrenched form of stockholm syndrome. not just here - but in all points of confort. can't move out of dc because it's the only swamp in the world with lid suspension and hotplugging something or the other, gotta use apple because insanoarcana, etc.

13:54:41 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 13:05:21; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400258 << what stockholm. It's the only working portable comp vendor.

13:55:09 mircea_popescu: it's all fine and dandy, makes up the very characteristic weird we've come to love under the label alf, but do not expect it's a consideration (or even meaningful) for anyone else.

13:57:27 ben_vulpes: unrelatedly

13:58:02 ben_vulpes: who is john w. wilkinson and is there any reason to keep his json spirit license around?

13:58:05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400280 << this is sold by one vendor in the arbitrary, pointless package you've chosen, and by EVERY SINGLE VENDOR as a desktop. and so on.

13:58:05 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 13:21:54; asciilifeform: this is sold by... one vendor.

13:58:16 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes be specific ?

13:58:49 ben_vulpes: bitcoin/src/json/LICENSE.txt

13:59:34 mircea_popescu: eh, wipe all licenses. tmsr does not honor agreements between parties not attached to the wot.

13:59:47 ben_vulpes: in line with my thinking

13:59:53 mircea_popescu: for the lulz :

13:59:54 mircea_popescu: https://www.bitcoin.com/src/json/LICENSE.txt

13:59:55 assbot: Page not found | Bitcoin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1Qp60cG )

13:59:59 mircea_popescu: :D

14:00:02 mircea_popescu: you WOULD THINK

14:00:04 mircea_popescu: but naaaaah

14:00:20 mircea_popescu: it's just the plastic wanna-be crap, has nothing to do with bitcoin

14:00:34 ben_vulpes: http://thebitcoin.foundation/src << also lulzy?

14:00:35 assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1Qp638p )

14:01:55 mircea_popescu: ah but this si trivially fixed!

14:02:49 mircea_popescu: can anyone with thebitcoin.foundation privileges plox redirect http://thebitcoin.foundation/src to http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/ thankee

14:02:50 assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1Qp638p )

14:02:50 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1LrFPT8 )

14:03:26 ben_vulpes: paging mod6 to the preactor control room

14:03:42 mircea_popescu: as you can see my dear vulpes, it's not that we're BORN any better. it's that we've been doing something about it since then.

14:04:45 mircea_popescu: in other news of no particular interest, long sloppy blowjob the night before means you'll be picking red hairs out of your crotch for the rest of the morning.

14:05:35 ben_vulpes: hair splinters for everyone

14:07:00 mircea_popescu: and speaking of apple users and alf-citizens, http://49.media.tumblr.com/010fa0d5f548f7f326940624cb82a1f5/tumblr_nyqy33Y65F1qlne6uo1_500.gif

14:07:02 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Qp6LT5 )

14:07:02 ben_vulpes: in other news we call this occasionally-accumulating infant smegma "neck cheese" because mothers milk comes back up as ricotta

14:07:13 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes ahjahahaha!

14:07:25 ben_vulpes: ahaha mircea_popescu yours is funny too!

14:07:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57924 @ 0.0005778 = 33.4685 BTC [+] {2}

14:07:50 ben_vulpes: ;;seen pete_dushenski

14:07:51 gribble: pete_dushenski was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 5 days, 13 hours, 38 minutes, and 24 seconds ago: <pete_dushenski> off to pickup new specs. if i'm not back this evening, i'll be around under 'pete_d_out' over the coming days. cheers!

14:08:14 ben_vulpes: ;;seen pete_d_out

14:08:14 gribble: pete_d_out was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 days, 0 hours, 5 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <pete_d_out> well, my clock's running out. i'll check back in soon :)

14:08:29 ben_vulpes: ;;seen pete_dior

14:08:29 gribble: I have not seen pete_dior.

14:08:39 ben_vulpes: wait

14:08:45 ben_vulpes: pete_d_out?

14:09:06 ben_vulpes: doesn't that get you on some kind of vile criminal list in canada?

14:09:19 mircea_popescu: ;;seen fabulous_pete_dolcegrabanya

14:09:19 gribble: I have not seen fabulous_pete_dolcegrabanya.

14:09:35 mircea_popescu: ;;seen hot_stuffs_pete_chanel

14:09:36 gribble: I have not seen hot_stuffs_pete_chanel.

14:09:38 mircea_popescu: hm.

14:09:53 ben_vulpes: something is amiss

14:10:08 mircea_popescu: i never expected him to not show up under his PROFESSIONAL names...

14:11:41 ben_vulpes: no no i think those are different

14:11:51 ben_vulpes: ;;seen pete_driver

14:11:52 gribble: I have not seen pete_driver.

14:12:21 ben_vulpes: good porn name, that.

14:13:53 mircea_popescu: ;;google the mailman always petes the door three times

14:13:53 gribble: Random Events - Pages :: Tip.It RuneScape Help :: The Original ...: http://www.tip.it/runescape/pages/view/random_events.htm; Flight of the Phoenix - Arrested Development Wiki - Wikia: http://arresteddevelopment.wikia.com/wiki/Flight_of_the_Phoenix; GOOD FELLAS by Nicholas Pileggi and Martin Scorcese - Daily Script: http://www.dailyscript.com/scripts/goodfellas.html

14:15:45 ben_vulpes: this alphabetical sorting of patches in v flow grates on me for some reason i'm struggling to articulate.

14:16:24 PeterL: they should be in the order they get applied?

14:16:25 ben_vulpes: and its implicit use in pressing.

14:17:35 ben_vulpes: PeterL: the list of patches gets alphasorted before toposorting in all implementations i've seen to date.

14:17:59 PeterL: but why should the alphasort matter?

14:18:21 ben_vulpes: if a v implementation recurses up from the pressed head, it doesn't.

14:18:24 ben_vulpes: er

14:18:31 ben_vulpes: from the desired head to press, it doesn't.

14:18:42 ben_vulpes: if instead a v implementation presses each patch in the flow...

14:29:49 mircea_popescu: so don't sort.

14:31:28 PeterL: I guess alphasorting is a cheap way to ensure consistency between presses of equal sets?

14:37:07 mircea_popescu: if it is then it's probably hiding a bug or three

14:38:46 PeterL: meh, I guess thinking about it, I guess if two patches are of equal level, then it does not matter which order they get applied?

14:39:02 PeterL: sort of by definition of equal level?

14:39:14 PeterL: or am I totally confused?

14:39:27 ben_vulpes: draw the graph, it's a useful exercise.

14:39:57 PeterL: so we should not need to alphasort anything?

14:40:48 ben_vulpes: well, "need".

14:40:59 ben_vulpes: but no, not imho.

14:42:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32400 @ 0.00057604 = 18.6637 BTC [-]

14:44:42 *: ben_vulpes waves at alf's diddling

14:54:39 mircea_popescu: artifexd , asciilifeform , ben_vulpes , bingoboingo , cazalla , chetty , danielpbarron , davout , diametric , dignork , fluffypony , hanbot , jurov , kakobrekla , mats , mike_c , mircea_popescu , mod6 , mthreat , nubbins` , pete_dushenski , punkman , thestringpuller , trinque , phf , diana_coman : http://fraudsters.com/2016/the-lordship-list-third-year/

14:54:40 assbot: The Lordship list, third year. on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TQ3stx )

14:54:47 *: fluffypony clicks

14:54:52 mircea_popescu: you can thank ben_vulpes for making work for everyone!

14:55:32 fluffypony: hah hah, 10/10

14:57:13 mircea_popescu: PeterL> or am I totally confused? << a patch can only be safely applied to its antecedent. two patches at the same level CAN NOT be both applied by definition.

14:57:17 mircea_popescu: you pick one per level.

14:58:14 PeterL: if they affect different files, they could be the same level?

14:58:41 mircea_popescu: well i have nfi what you mean by "same level", but to my eyes and from graph theory considerations it would mean "patches applied atop the same one patch"

14:59:26 PeterL: well, trying to decide order of patches to apply, if they affect different files then it does not matter which order you use?

14:59:31 mircea_popescu: thye chain you see, X is applied on "that patch with hash h1", ie G ; and in turn Y is applied to "that patch with hash h2", ie X

14:59:41 mircea_popescu: it does, counterintuitively.

15:00:07 ben_vulpes: ill meaning!

15:00:10 ben_vulpes: thrice cursed!

15:00:17 mircea_popescu: lol

15:00:40 PeterL: so even if different files are affected, you have to specify the order?

15:01:03 mircea_popescu: you necessarily and always specify the order when you write the patch, because it includes the hash of the thing you want it applied on top of.

15:01:36 mircea_popescu: understand, this "different files" is flimsy as fuck. for all you know the "same files" are not really the same at all - their content changed.

15:02:00 ben_vulpes: more to the point with artifexd he bit off gossipd, claimed progress, and then vanished.

15:02:26 mircea_popescu: hey, when richard was gone to the crusades forever they put john on the throne.

15:02:29 mircea_popescu: good law!

15:02:43 mircea_popescu: then he came back there was a bit of trouble, but nothing we can't handle.

15:03:16 ben_vulpes: sure yeah people have been inquiring politely for...

15:03:18 ben_vulpes: ;;seen artifexd

15:03:18 gribble: artifexd was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 41 weeks, 5 days, 16 hours, 46 minutes, and 35 seconds ago: <artifexd> I'm comfortable calling it a review. Not just of what it is but what it was and how it got to where it is.

15:03:25 ben_vulpes: nearly 42 weeks now.

15:04:05 ben_vulpes: ;;later tell artifexd yo it's going to be much harder to get back in than it will be to preserve your seat now

15:04:05 gribble: The operation succeeded.

15:04:46 mircea_popescu: well... much.

15:04:58 *: ben_vulpes rolls eyes

15:05:05 mircea_popescu: my doctrine is that it's the simplest thing in the world for a lord to get his seat.

15:05:09 mircea_popescu: all he has to do is ask.

15:05:23 mircea_popescu: and if one isn't a lord... well... why would they want it ? fucking milstone around one's neck of the first degree.

15:08:31 ben_vulpes: hm

15:08:58 ben_vulpes: i'm not sold on diana_coman

15:09:56 diana_coman: I am honoured to be proposed to the list; I might add that I am quite likely to be of the silent type indeed at least for the time being

15:10:55 deedbot-: [fraudsters] The Lordship list, third year. - http://fraudsters.com/2016/the-lordship-list-third-year/

15:10:58 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes next month's s.mg filing might clarify.

15:11:09 mircea_popescu: in any case we're early here, two months til april, and then all of april.

15:11:23 ben_vulpes: aha!

15:11:45 ben_vulpes: legendarily long lead time for feedback here, just getting ahead of things.

15:12:41 *: ben_vulpes is open to being sold, grew up in america after all

15:14:31 PeterL: only one female on the lordship list? you guys are so sexist! Clearly we need some affirmative action around here?

15:14:52 mircea_popescu: either that or more women that went to school for purposes other than talking about boys.

15:15:22 mircea_popescu: also, i thought kakobrekla was a girl ? no ? because -a ?

15:15:44 ben_vulpes: and the tits!

15:15:50 mircea_popescu: a right, there is that alos.

15:15:58 ben_vulpes: hey mod6 here's an edge case for you

15:16:19 ben_vulpes: press a patch without hashes in the headers

15:16:38 mircea_popescu: thanks got PeterL was confused earlier eh ben_vulpes ?

15:16:57 kakobrekla: chix with dix

15:17:18 ben_vulpes: and mats with tits

15:17:27 mircea_popescu: masTITIS!

15:17:32 kakobrekla: aha

15:17:35 diana_coman: ^^^ ftr I can't remember ANY setting later than nursery in which I wasn't in a setup of at least 1:2 female:male

15:17:46 mircea_popescu: and in more "i married the wrong girl" news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/61c9d7e8de1f94638e74daf6a5069e54/tumblr_nyhv2e9ok51qlne6uo1_1280.jpg

15:17:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q5hBx3 )

15:17:52 phf: shinohai: Can any asseteers tell me if this is a worthy SSD? << i've been using it's precursor, 250gb 830, as my primary drive for three years now, have nothing to complain about it. unless samsung fucked something up, an 850 will be my next purchase

15:18:32 PeterL: my high school calculus class was 3 boys and about 18 girls

15:18:33 mircea_popescu: diana_coman as long as you enjoyed it...

15:18:46 mircea_popescu: PeterL so invite them over.

15:19:29 PeterL: meh, i don't talk with any of them, that was like 15 years ago

15:19:30 ben_vulpes: PeterL: public school?

15:19:34 PeterL: yup

15:19:41 mircea_popescu: PeterL now you see everyone else's problem

15:19:50 mircea_popescu: well, everyone else's other than me, but anyway!

15:19:51 ben_vulpes: i have a completely unbacked theory that the further you go down the american income/class ladder the more girls you'll get in those classes.

15:20:11 PeterL: actually no, I don't see everybodys problem?

15:20:21 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you know for everyone from europe public school = best school. private school is where people with money send their retarded offspring to keep up the pretense.

15:20:42 mircea_popescu: PeterL "nobody kept in touch with the smart women they met so they have no proposals to make so the list is mostly guys"

15:20:45 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: and you know that public school in america is just daycare.

15:20:52 mircea_popescu: aha.

15:20:54 phf: my highschool class from about grade 8 and on was 16 girls and 5 guys

15:20:55 PeterL: aha, now I get it

15:20:58 diana_coman: hm, we were 11 girls: 22 boys precisely in high school (cs class ie maths+physics+programming)

15:21:15 ben_vulpes: diana_coman: eurozone?

15:21:20 diana_coman: Romania


15:21:42 mircea_popescu: diana_coman cluj suprareal cca late 1990s had exactly ONE girl in the set of 8 people that were accepted on merit, and about 14 in the set of 17 others who were accepted to pad the class so it may be made.

15:22:46 mircea_popescu: phf where was this ?

15:22:50 diana_coman: bwahahaha, our class was simply and unashamedly skimmed as "top 33" based on admission exam results

15:22:53 phf: moscows, naturally

15:22:57 mircea_popescu: ah.

15:23:38 mircea_popescu: diana_coman the way this worked was, "gpa over X", which meant 8 people out of the region. then everyone went into the normal-great classes. but THEN it came word from the miniostry that they won't run a class for 8 people

15:23:40 diana_coman: after which they proceeded to bash us that "you will end up washing the floors in supermarkets"

15:23:49 mircea_popescu: and so the highschool admitted 17 more people into it, off the end of the list.

15:24:03 mircea_popescu: which you know... who was going to complain about it.

15:24:22 mod6: <+ben_vulpes> press a patch without hashes in the headers << i've actually got that one covered in the patch im about to put out there tonight.

15:24:48 phf: there was a slightly different ratio in the B class, which was everyone who didn't make the A class.

15:24:48 mod6: if/when you can get the new patch applied, give it a try and let me know. thx.

15:24:49 ben_vulpes: neat

15:24:51 *: mircea_popescu is vaguely envious of phf's adolescentine paradise. i expect they were all lanky slav coughars with uncharacteristically large tits for that type, and spent a lot of time doing stuff in the nude

15:24:55 mircea_popescu: AND YOU CAN'T TELL ME ANY DIFFERENT!

15:24:57 diana_coman: aha, the 8 class thing would've been a great thing though

15:25:23 mircea_popescu: diana_coman actually the way it played out was imo the best possible outcome.

15:25:24 ben_vulpes: mod6: what kind of patch are you shipping? ri patch or v patch?

15:26:05 shinohai: thx phf and congrats to all who have made the Lord's list.

15:26:15 mod6: shipping? it'll just be a whole bundle once we do a bit of testing -- but tonights patch will be a squashed patch of the one from last week, and the additional changes here.

15:26:19 ben_vulpes: it ain't april yet shinohai

15:26:23 phf: but the school was already selective, was ran by a strong Georgian woman. if you didn't perform would get a visit with the principle. "your child will have a very hard time next year. a ~very~ hard time. we advise you move schools immediately". i know because my parents got the talk once or twice

15:26:24 mod6: will basically encompass what will be v99995

15:26:55 mircea_popescu: it's funny how good education ~always~ comes down to a woman with a whip.

15:26:56 ben_vulpes: word

15:26:57 mod6: i updated alot of the automate tests, and added a number of them, to ensure that i didn't regress anywhere. so far, seems good.

15:27:10 mircea_popescu: and little bitches a la orwell whining about it.

15:27:40 punkman: opinions: +1 to both additions. would be nice to see artifexd return. fluffy and nubbins can keep their lordships unless they wish to abdicate.

15:29:05 ben_vulpes: ooh

15:29:37 *: ben_vulpes tries to reconcile 'lord can have seat back for asking' with the booting of fluffypony and nubbins`

15:30:26 trinque: !rated phf

15:30:26 assbot: You have not rated phf.

15:30:26 PeterL: maybe you need a "lord emeritus" status for people who are not presently active?

15:30:32 mircea_popescu: wasn't "have back", was have at all and in general.

15:30:44 mircea_popescu: PeterL no such thing! they can self-apply that, easy enough to verify.

15:30:46 ben_vulpes: !rated phf

15:30:46 assbot: You rated user phf on 16-Apr-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: lisper..

15:31:28 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: ah

15:31:32 ben_vulpes: perhaps i see a glimmer

15:31:44 ben_vulpes: PeterL: i was thinking about a deadbot- !

15:31:47 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes wasn't a matter of [person who was once branded a lord] [can have seat back for asking]. it was a matter of [person who was born with the mettle and greatness of being a lord] [can have a seat whether they had one or never did just by basically existing in their grandiose state].

15:31:52 phf: hehe, my +v workhorse rating, ty ben_vulpes

15:31:52 trinque: !rate phf 2 provided example CL code for next deedbot, made excellent v-patch viewer, intelligent fellow

15:31:52 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/d854434c72d2880f

15:32:06 thestringpuller: trinque: I think you're right about the whole SSD thing. I'm going to resync on my giga-box for more tests, but it seems bootstrapping performance is increased more by adding SSD than adding more CPU's (unless you're adding like 20 cores to the thing but even then)

15:32:08 mircea_popescu: !rated phf

15:32:08 assbot: You rated user phf on 24-Jun-2015, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: Fixed our boxen!.

15:32:16 mircea_popescu: nb.

15:32:36 trinque: !v assbot:trinque.rate.phf.2:5167af628daff6a6257f3d4a95319406f789276d76fa8ef57ca1946b511a5add

15:32:36 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 2 for phf with note: provided example CL code for next deedbot, made excellent v-patch viewer, intelligent fellow

15:33:16 trinque: thestringpuller: yes, it's quite IO hungry

15:33:22 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller it still mostly uses one core no matter what you do

15:33:25 shinohai: Is there an official court jester post?

15:33:49 mircea_popescu: notrly...

15:33:55 ben_vulpes: they usually get shitcanned shinohai

15:33:59 BingoBoingo: shinohai: Just wait for vexual to hit your pm's

15:34:08 ben_vulpes: haha BingoBoingo has it

15:34:22 ben_vulpes: entertaining feller.

15:34:24 shinohai: I used to get pm's from Vexual EVRY GODDAMNED SATURDAY

15:34:30 mod6: ben_vulpes: here's a peek at the squshed beta 1 & beta 2 vpatches - unless something changes between now and tonight, i'll be sending this one to the ML. All you need to do to apply is get V [v99996], copy `v.pl' to `v.pl.v99996`, then place this patch in the same dir and do: `patch -p0 < V_v99995_beta2.vpatch` and give it a go

15:34:36 mod6: http://dpaste.com/17GT26R.txt

15:34:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q5jc5Z )

15:35:09 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: yea, my P4 that's overclocked has had the best performance in bootstrapping.

15:35:26 thestringpuller: 64-bit 3.4 ghz OC

15:35:28 fluffypony: shinohai: hah hah, me too

15:35:42 ben_vulpes: mod6: V in V!

15:35:59 *: shinohai pets fluffypony

15:36:42 ben_vulpes: nifty mod6

15:36:47 ben_vulpes: doubt i'll get to it today tho

15:36:49 asciilifeform: finally my lazy arse has 'irc bounce'

15:36:57 mod6: anyway, will re-walk through this all again tonight, etc. then will sign and send to ML.

15:36:59 BingoBoingo: Congrats asciilifeform

15:37:00 *: ben_vulpes falls over

15:37:48 shinohai: mod6: new trb is at height 284171

15:37:55 shinohai: *trb node

15:38:17 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> doubt i'll get to it today tho << "there's all this delicious administrative shit to fuck around with early, who has time for codings!!!"

15:38:33 ben_vulpes: hey i was hacking all am

15:38:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform congratulations!

15:38:37 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400329 << l0l, mircea_popescu must think that my lunch money alone keeps crapple alive ?

15:38:37 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 13:55:09; mircea_popescu: it's all fine and dandy, makes up the very characteristic weird we've come to love under the label alf, but do not expect it's a consideration (or even meaningful) for anyone else.

15:38:40 asciilifeform: ty mircea_popescu

15:38:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude wtf are you channeling jwz ?

15:39:03 mircea_popescu: "shitting i nthe soup is not a problem, not all the floating turds are mine!"

15:39:18 BingoBoingo: !b 1

15:39:19 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2NK12C1.txt )

15:39:28 mircea_popescu: who the fuck cares about the effects!

15:39:36 mircea_popescu: the discussion is whether the cause is problematic or not.

15:39:36 diana_coman: mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes you know for everyone from europe public school = best school. private school is where people with money send their retarded offspring to keep up the pretense. <- +1 to that; I might add the only exception to this rule I found in northern Italy where "private" meant in fact province (autonomous, German-speaking-and-doing province) funded

15:39:54 mircea_popescu: aha. there are pockets like that yeah

15:39:58 asciilifeform: just observing that neither i nor the other million chumps are enthusiastic coprophagics, we were simply given a menu of shit and broken glass, and picked shit

15:40:13 BingoBoingo: Also got broken glass

15:40:21 asciilifeform: in the end, everybody gets both

15:40:23 mircea_popescu: and this matters in the sense that ximenez of spain really was interested in whether the witch had or hadn't orgasmed with the devil.

15:40:23 ben_vulpes: i hate this thread

15:40:52 mod6: <+shinohai> mod6: new trb is at height 284171 << good deal, thanks for reporting :]

15:40:56 asciilifeform: l0l ben_vulpes, how is your rusting aluminum anchor

15:41:20 ben_vulpes: it has *chips* out of it asciilifeform, thank you for asking.

15:41:38 asciilifeform: whaddayado with it? hammer nails?

15:41:45 ben_vulpes: nfi

15:41:49 asciilifeform: or does it start coming apart by its lonesome after a few yrs

15:41:58 ben_vulpes: pretty standard decomposition pattern i think now

15:42:03 *: asciilifeform has an original 'air' that is still pristine

15:42:14 ben_vulpes: leading edge just torso-ward of the hands starts chipping after some time

15:42:33 ben_vulpes: i am a barbarian though and it must be my fault somehow for expecting my tools to be robust

15:42:41 ben_vulpes: i give precisely zero fucks about lightweight laptops.

15:42:50 ben_vulpes: if it's made of METAL i want to HIT PEOPLE WITH IT

15:43:00 ben_vulpes: and not worry about the delicate internals

15:43:01 trinque: that thinkpad is dead.

15:43:03 trinque: DEAD

15:43:10 BingoBoingo: Aluminum D cell maglite I've used as hammer does not have chips out of it.

15:43:16 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400348 << this goes to the ancient turd, still has, e.g., irc in it!!111111

15:43:16 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 14:02:49; mircea_popescu: can anyone with thebitcoin.foundation privileges plox redirect http://thebitcoin.foundation/src to http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/ thankee

15:43:22 asciilifeform: no good ^

15:43:29 asciilifeform: (

15:43:32 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: is it blizzarding like dairy queen up there

15:43:44 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: where

15:43:48 BingoBoingo: It' snuffling snow here

15:44:25 BingoBoingo: Shoveled at about 4 am and brined concrete. Now snow has doubled, concrete still clean.

15:44:53 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: a good chunk of the weight of all of these is 1) battery 2) cpu heat pipes -- for all of which, you can thank idiot intel/x86.

15:45:01 shinohai: I have snow here as well, just strong flurries nothing to write home about.

15:45:09 asciilifeform: fuck x86. with red hot bayonet.

15:45:50 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> can anyone with thebitcoin.foundation privileges plox redirect http://thebitcoin.foundation/src to http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/ thankee << yup, np. will resolve later today.

15:45:50 assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1Qp638p )

15:45:51 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1LrFPT8 )

15:45:53 BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Roads here are clusterfuck because no one could anticipate 2nd round of snow coming this morning

15:46:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha, it is the source of where it starts.

15:46:17 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400386 << and you would rather have what ?

15:46:17 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 14:17:35; ben_vulpes: PeterL: the list of patches gets alphasorted before toposorting in all implementations i've seen to date.

15:46:20 mircea_popescu: like it or not, part of us, like the iliterate mother part of napoleon.

15:46:23 asciilifeform: sorted by file handle # ?

15:46:26 asciilifeform: random ?

15:46:30 mircea_popescu: "unspecified"

15:46:34 asciilifeform: fuck unspecified.

15:46:36 mircea_popescu: why specify what needn't be

15:46:36 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: I'd expect midwesterners to know how to drive in snow belt weather... Here we get 2 inches, the roads freeze and everyone freaks out like its The Walking Dead or some shit.

15:46:55 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because anything that can be deterministic, should be.

15:47:10 asciilifeform: because otherwise heisenbugs.

15:47:11 mod6: to asciilifeform's point tho, i'm not too sure what even exists in the lxr thing, and if is congruent with what's in the V mirror

15:47:17 BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Problem is water under snow. Dept of Roads does not brine as generously as I do.

15:47:26 asciilifeform: lxr has a several month-old bleeding edge v.

15:47:38 asciilifeform: but imho linking to the ancient 0.5.3 by default is lunacy.

15:47:44 asciilifeform: it is relevant to nobody anywhere.

15:47:53 asciilifeform: other than archaeologists.

15:48:00 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: aha. so even there you'll see cars in ditches with people telling cops "i dunno what happened, i just slippped and ended up in here"

15:48:41 BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Yes. Very little snow, but enough to cull weakest drivers.

15:49:19 BingoBoingo: If alarm was raised in time those drivers would have normally stayed home, but because they were not explicitly told road is slick all suffer

15:50:33 PeterL: this morning we had a bit of snow, I slid about 10 yards past the entrance to work, antilock brakes kicked in, had to shift to reverse and go back to turn into parking lot

15:51:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is nonsense. by that rule you should hang.

15:51:35 asciilifeform: hows that

15:51:41 mircea_popescu: so you be deterministic too.

15:52:04 asciilifeform: i don't ~want~ my computer alive.

15:52:05 asciilifeform: do you ?

15:52:14 mircea_popescu: trb is alive whether you want it or not.

15:52:20 shinohai: ^

15:52:24 asciilifeform: if wanted alive, would buy a cow.

15:52:37 asciilifeform: trb is alive, v is a knife.

15:52:42 mircea_popescu: cow doesn't give limited milk.

15:52:42 asciilifeform: i do not want knife with a will of its own.

15:52:58 mircea_popescu: hm. you ever seen modern knives as used on people ?

15:52:58 asciilifeform: and i can't fathom why mircea_popescu would.

15:53:02 mircea_popescu: practically, will of own.

15:53:15 mircea_popescu: i don't want anything, whatsoever. and i still don;t care what the effects would be.

15:53:29 mircea_popescu: the notion itself, of the basis you propose, seems to me problematic.

15:53:39 asciilifeform: the notion is that a tool ought to behave maximally predictably.

15:53:53 asciilifeform: otherwise we call it something else, wtf, mechanical girlfriend

15:54:03 mircea_popescu: why should a tool become a means by which you may pretend to enact determinism out of absent such ?

15:54:18 mircea_popescu: it'll just lie to you.

15:54:25 asciilifeform: because it isn't absent if i nail it down.

15:54:34 mircea_popescu: by protocol or by promise ?

15:54:44 asciilifeform: by protocol.

15:54:44 mircea_popescu: this nailing down... stick to nailing the mechanical gfs. reality has no holes.

15:54:56 mircea_popescu: i don't see where this is in the protocol ?

15:55:12 shinohai: BingoBoingo: this might be worth paying to see, drunk or no: https://i.imgur.com/r3xs9aY.jpg

15:55:12 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q5lrGC )

15:55:17 mircea_popescu: what specifically would prevent me from later making a non-alpha-sorting V ?

15:55:20 asciilifeform: where i wrote the routine, which sorts by ascii and then by flow.

15:55:31 mircea_popescu: that is not hte protocol, that is the spec of one implemen tation among many

15:55:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nothing at all. this feature isn't even interesting.

15:55:35 BingoBoingo: shinohai: lol

15:55:44 mircea_popescu: and if you want everyone to change his, you are basically building on promise.

15:55:56 mircea_popescu: well the feature isn't interesting in itself, other than for this discussion.

15:55:57 asciilifeform: i see mircea_popescu's point here

15:56:36 asciilifeform: 'thou shalt not rely on the splinters on the chair legs being just-so'

15:56:40 asciilifeform: or somethinglikethat.

15:56:46 mircea_popescu: pretty much.

15:59:07 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400409 << 'levels' have no useful meaning here. any two patches that don't take a file with hash H and try to transform it into two disparage H' and H'', can be pressed together.

15:59:07 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 14:57:13; mircea_popescu: PeterL> or am I totally confused? << a patch can only be safely applied to its antecedent. two patches at the same level CAN NOT be both applied by definition.

15:59:15 asciilifeform: *disparate

15:59:37 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform my idea of "level" was "all patches taking a certain hash as input"

15:59:38 asciilifeform: likewise, they must not attempt to transform X' and disparate X'' into a Y

15:59:47 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in that case yes.

15:59:56 asciilifeform: but this is not what level normally means when looking at a DAG.

15:59:58 mircea_popescu: im not sure what his idea of level was, prolly not too strictly defined.

16:00:09 mircea_popescu: no, but it would be if you're looking at a tree

16:00:20 *: mircea_popescu confesses to still thinking of v tron in terms of tree not exactly dag.

16:00:20 asciilifeform: only if the tree were specially drawn this way

16:00:27 mircea_popescu: even if trees are necessarily dag's rite ?

16:00:36 asciilifeform: aha

16:00:43 asciilifeform: but note, this is not strictly speaking a tree

16:01:12 mircea_popescu: i also confess to mentally having an imaginary pre-G as a master node for all the various G's such as shiva's bitcoins v's etc.

16:01:42 mircea_popescu: or you meant somethign else ?

16:01:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: specifically in that it does not have uniform levels

16:02:10 mircea_popescu: what's uniform ?

16:02:24 asciilifeform: e.g., i can submit a patch which depends only on genesis, and it will be among the current leaves

16:02:34 asciilifeform: this is not permissible in a strict tree, definitionally

16:02:35 jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400592 foundation is welcome to link to any chosen 'v' head present there.

16:02:35 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 15:43:16; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400348 << this goes to the ancient turd, still has, e.g., irc in it!!111111

16:02:43 jurov: If they can come to unanimous agreement, which one is the longest, praps.

16:02:50 mircea_popescu: how would it be among "Current" leaves. we don't have a notion of time.

16:03:03 asciilifeform: current being the last pressable, strictly

16:03:31 mircea_popescu: but this is not really a cogent consideration. as far as levels are concerned, this "current" one would be just qas much l1 as all the other direct-G descendants.

16:03:52 jurov: and to press the "last pressable" I do what command?

16:03:59 mircea_popescu: there is no last.

16:04:14 jurov: alf said there is!!!!11

16:04:19 deedbot-: [Qntra] US Department Of Education Driving Tuition Increases - http://qntra.net/2016/02/us-department-of-education-driving-tuition-increases/

16:04:20 mircea_popescu: he doesn't know what he's talking about!!1

16:04:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is 'longest chain' but none of the current vtrons know how to find it

16:04:28 asciilifeform: nor is it clear that it is a useful thing to do

16:04:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that longest per se is meaningless.

16:04:39 mircea_popescu: so what if someone made 5000 patches in a row.

16:04:48 mircea_popescu: i say it is not useful or even meaningful.

16:05:16 asciilifeform: i would say that it is meaningful to 'press latest known unorphaned chain signed by x'

16:05:25 mircea_popescu: there is no "latest"

16:05:28 asciilifeform: this is, after all, what i do when developing.

16:05:36 asciilifeform: again, latest means last-known.

16:05:44 mircea_popescu: there is no time sorting whatever.

16:05:48 asciilifeform: it isn't about time!

16:05:52 BingoBoingo: V like everything else only exists in the present

16:05:56 mircea_popescu: do you mean longest then ?

16:06:03 asciilifeform: it is about a->b->c and we don't yet have a d.

16:06:10 asciilifeform: then c is 'latest'.

16:06:25 mircea_popescu: so by latest you really mean something like "virgin nodes"

16:06:34 mircea_popescu: fillies, something. pure and untouched by man.

16:06:39 asciilifeform: aha.

16:06:43 asciilifeform: let's use the term.

16:06:52 mircea_popescu: aite, i see. really should drop the latest it's confucksing

16:06:53 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400452 << this is invalid format and ought to barf

16:06:53 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 15:16:19; ben_vulpes: press a patch without hashes in the headers

16:07:02 asciilifeform: if not barfs, then broken vtron.

16:09:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider this problem for a moment if you will : have people a, b and c ; have nodes as follows : G(a,b,c) -> N1 (a, b, c) -> N2 (a, b, c) -> N3 (a, b) / N3' (c) -> N4 (a,b) / N4' (c) -> N5 (c) -> N6 (c).

16:09:32 BingoBoingo: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/31/33/ff/3133ff447d39045c7766a2a07e8d36b6.jpg

16:09:33 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KCZkLw )

16:10:00 mircea_popescu: in this situation, "longest chain signed by ab) is 4, longest chain signed by c is 6. what is longest chain signed by abc ? 6 too ?

16:10:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what means slash ?

16:10:05 mircea_popescu: this may turn out to be a fucking problem.

16:10:12 mircea_popescu: alt node in same position in tree

16:11:06 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trivial case of tie

16:11:12 asciilifeform: if i understand correctly

16:11:18 asciilifeform: tie - is to be broken by the operator. always.

16:11:20 mircea_popescu: of what ? no, it's not a tie, is c running off with the count

16:11:44 asciilifeform: c has 'longest chain with c'

16:11:47 asciilifeform: what's the problem ?

16:11:51 asciilifeform: don't want it? don't ask for c

16:11:51 mircea_popescu: does he have longest chain with abc ?

16:12:00 asciilifeform: nope

16:12:01 punkman: i'd say longest by abc is N2

16:12:02 asciilifeform: with a|b|c

16:12:10 mircea_popescu: like that it works.

16:12:12 asciilifeform: punkman: has it

16:12:20 asciilifeform: punkman has it, rather.

16:12:30 mircea_popescu: this gets to the core of what i was asking of phf to do with those lists.

16:12:36 mircea_popescu: which im still not sure if it's clear or not.

16:13:56 phf: it's not, i need to reread relevant threads, and this one

16:14:29 mircea_popescu: what i said then phf was, i must be able to tell a) which people in total contributed and b) on what sets of people does the present press depend.

16:15:11 asciilifeform: the 'longest chain sans orphans having sigs S1,S2...Sx' is quite essential.

16:15:20 mircea_popescu: this is the counterposed thing. in this case, i would wish for N6 to know that a) abc and b) c ; whereas for N4 that a) abc and b) a OR b and finally for N2 that a) abc and b) a Or B or C

16:15:56 asciilifeform: it lets folks actually press a release, for example, without requiring 'papal infallibility' for the release signers; and, likewise importantly, it lets developer press 'i want a thing will all of my shit but not the discarded erroneous crud'

16:16:18 mircea_popescu: i could hash out a more complex example if it may help, since this NOTATIONAL FORMALISM (see that alf!!!) actually solves the problem of saying graphs. something i wasn't going to do before not because you can't display them, but because im too lazy to draw em.

16:16:26 mircea_popescu: brb

16:17:36 asciilifeform: i will also note that all of this was part of my original concept for vtron

16:17:38 BingoBoingo: In other news... Do these "storage cups" look a lot like baffles to anyone else? https://archive.is/rn2nx

16:17:39 assbot: Amazon.com : JMPF (8) .995" Maglite C-Cell Preformed Aluminum Storage Cup Non Freeze Plug : Sports & Outdoors ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q5ohLG )

16:17:43 asciilifeform: but did not make its way into the prototype

16:18:45 mircea_popescu: the situation is :

16:18:46 mircea_popescu: G (a, b, c, d, e, f, g) -> N1 (a, b, c, d) / N1` (e) / N1`` (f, g) -> N2 (a, c, d, e, f) / N2` (b, g) -> N3 (f, c) / N3` (a, b, c) / N3`` (a, d, f, g) -> N4 (a) / N4` (b, c) / N4`` (a, c, d, e) / N4``` (a, f)

16:18:56 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: wtf are those

16:19:04 mircea_popescu: the task is : to compute a) and b) for N2`, N3`` and all N4s.

16:19:11 asciilifeform: holy shit is mircea_popescu's example hard to read

16:19:16 mircea_popescu: hater.

16:19:18 asciilifeform: srsly, trees as 1liners, l0l

16:19:30 mircea_popescu: it's easy if you know what you're doing (r) (tm) (fy)

16:19:55 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: "storage cups" that go into tubular aluminum flashlight body... Come with replacement end cap featuring drilled hole.

16:20:03 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: why???

16:20:27 mircea_popescu: because there's a humongo market of ... flashlights, of all things, in the us. and trying to invent value for it so the assburger'd males keep buying them

16:20:40 asciilifeform: holy shit wut

16:20:44 mircea_popescu: it boggles the mind, what the fuck people are doing with flashlights over there these days.

16:20:44 mircea_popescu: they're insane.

16:20:56 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Homebrew silencer for people without machine shop or work ethic

16:22:01 mircea_popescu: actually to risk going on a limb : the us is an ex-industrial pwoerhouse, made pseudo-rich by uninspired finalcial arrangements. the degeneracy that necessarily came from that picked a tiny topic and is making the glory of past days play out all over it. that topic is flashlights.

16:22:17 mircea_popescu: they can't make a plane or maintain the roads, but by god have you seen how superior their flashlights are over the orcs' ?

16:22:25 BingoBoingo: seriously

16:22:35 asciilifeform: now that i think about it, i even own one of those cast iron monsters

16:22:50 asciilifeform: 'tis what they had at the shop.

16:23:12 mircea_popescu: it took me a while to buy one that wasn't uv-led powered.

16:23:13 BingoBoingo: But flashlight are the only thing US does, so now cottage industry around making them into other things

16:23:13 asciilifeform: you can easily bludgeon a man, or break a door, with such

16:23:13 mircea_popescu: fucktards.

16:23:20 asciilifeform: uv?!

16:23:32 mircea_popescu: you know, blue leds

16:23:41 asciilifeform: they use white led here

16:23:46 mircea_popescu: worse.

16:23:48 mircea_popescu: yellow, bitch.

16:24:06 asciilifeform: perfectly usable white here.

16:24:13 mircea_popescu: well i never ran into one, but anyway.

16:24:40 asciilifeform: i have both kinds, from same maker, the krypton incandescent one is a club now

16:24:49 asciilifeform: 1/5th the brightness of the diode

16:25:10 phf: i thought police carries those oversized maglites for the purpose of using them as batons in a pinch

16:25:11 *: BingoBoingo put cheap led in club

16:25:11 asciilifeform: and wtf, i don't read with these, would happily buy even red led

16:25:17 asciilifeform: phf: aha

16:25:30 BingoBoingo: <phf> i thought police carries those oversized maglites for the purpose of using them as batons in a pinch << yes. For this 4, 5, or 6 D cell models

16:26:05 BingoBoingo: Also thinner C cell model for people concerned about weapon retention

16:26:06 asciilifeform: i thought we were thinking specifically of the 6 'd'

16:26:31 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: There's a full range of them

16:28:35 mircea_popescu: so d is for anal, c is for normal ?

16:29:01 asciilifeform: 'c' is for ansi standard police broomstick

16:29:05 asciilifeform: d - extended!111

16:30:59 BingoBoingo: But seriously these things are useful for beating down most things. Better made for that than some hammers I've seen

16:31:02 phf: extended version usually deployed by short and fat female cops in american tv shows. "sir, SIR, sir. sir!"

16:33:27 BingoBoingo: They also make AA and AAA versions likely for nostril fucking

16:34:13 mircea_popescu: i'm apparently missing a lot of culture

16:34:13 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400478 << i will admit that i am not certain i have ever met in the flesh, other than chetty, a woman who wrote software

16:34:13 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 15:20:58; diana_coman: hm, we were 11 girls: 22 boys precisely in high school (cs class ie maths+physics+programming)

16:34:29 asciilifeform: saw female bulldozer, crane operators,

16:34:32 asciilifeform: but this - no

16:34:44 mircea_popescu: you should get out more!

16:34:53 jurov: "nor is it clear that it is a useful thing to do" but lxr must show it!!1 lmao.

16:34:59 asciilifeform: where? antarctica ?

16:35:06 mats: you callin me fat, ben_vulpes

16:35:14 mats: its on nao

16:35:16 asciilifeform: jurov: all i said what what it must ~not~ show

16:35:19 asciilifeform: which is ancient crudcoin

16:35:52 asciilifeform: borrowing a page from mircea_popescu's 'this is WRONG now find a non-WRONG thing to do' book.

16:36:31 *: BingoBoingo actually rather surprised mircea_popescu doesn't already have 6D club in his dungeon, for appearances if nothing else.

16:36:40 jurov: the last trb release is a WRONG thing nao?

16:37:12 asciilifeform: surely that was not the last release ?

16:37:16 asciilifeform: had irc.cpp ?

16:37:32 jurov: 0.5.4 is out yet?

16:37:49 asciilifeform: and in fact it is wrong, because guess what, that turd WON'T SYNC

16:37:55 asciilifeform: without db locks patch at the least

16:37:59 asciilifeform: ergo is wrong.

16:38:06 mircea_popescu: i'm glad i said something.

16:38:19 jurov: ok, i'll look into -test2

16:38:25 asciilifeform: ty jurov

16:39:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> where? antarctica ? << no, atomic diriglandia. it's a wonderful place!

16:39:16 asciilifeform: i very much believe mircea_popescu .

16:39:24 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: re: codebabez you should totally come visit sometime

16:39:32 asciilifeform: visit what

16:39:36 mircea_popescu: anyway, how about you know, downtown. afaik dc is about 60% female by mass

16:39:41 mircea_popescu: most capitols are, anyway

16:39:56 ben_vulpes: me!

16:40:42 *: mircea_popescu would pay money for snapshot of alf awaken at 6:30 am by baby ; after having slept on guest bed over @ portland.

16:40:57 asciilifeform: l0l

16:41:51 *: asciilifeform generally doesn't leave home if it can be at all helped

16:41:54 ben_vulpes: i am offend

16:41:55 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i chastise, yes, but i don't believe in destroying the woman. canes, not clubs.

16:42:04 ben_vulpes: we have /electricity/

16:42:07 mircea_popescu: off which end ben_vulpes ?

16:42:15 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: What about for penetration?

16:42:16 ben_vulpes: and our covered wagons aren't even hauled by oxen any more but horse

16:42:35 mircea_popescu: penis is for penetration, that's good enough for me!

16:42:42 *: ben_vulpes hums

16:42:42 BingoBoingo: Also to chase away wild Obeasts who happen to glomp in

16:42:58 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: poppycock, everybuddy knows wagon don't move 'less an-'orse move't.

16:43:27 *: ben_vulpes looks sideways at asciilifeform

16:43:34 asciilifeform: ... or wife

16:43:37 mircea_popescu: o look, he's doing my fair lady!

16:43:48 ben_vulpes: hoo-ers.

16:44:21 ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, it took 12 (!) tugs to get the HK boat ungrounded from the elbe

16:44:51 mircea_popescu: name the thugs ?

16:45:36 ben_vulpes: you name the sucks?

16:45:42 ben_vulpes: individual licks even?

16:45:44 mircea_popescu: lol shucks!

16:46:00 ben_vulpes: atypically punny day

16:46:04 ben_vulpes: not even raining

16:46:05 mircea_popescu: wait this hk boat / elbe thing was a sexual innuendo item ?

16:46:29 mircea_popescu: my foreskin generally retracts on the first pass, just how wide IS this woman ?

16:46:44 ben_vulpes: nono not at first

16:46:51 mircea_popescu: fist ?

16:47:13 ben_vulpes: fisting first?!

16:47:16 ben_vulpes: fisting is for closers

16:47:24 asciilifeform: waiwut

16:47:27 asciilifeform: boat?!

16:47:30 ben_vulpes: aha

16:47:31 asciilifeform: ungrounded ?

16:47:38 ben_vulpes: mega container ship grounded in the elbe for FIVE DAYS

16:47:52 asciilifeform: and thought stuck cock

16:48:44 ben_vulpes: i am now renaming my cock to CSCL Indian Ocean

16:48:55 ben_vulpes: "baby i need a tug!"

16:49:10 ben_vulpes: grounded in the river elbe

16:49:11 mircea_popescu: tug&plug, it's a legitimate thing.

16:49:12 ben_vulpes: ehuehueahuehueh

16:50:36 BingoBoingo: Just deserts from the mines "With an ax rather than a scalpel, Australia's federal science agency last week chopped off its climate research arm in a decision that has stunned scientists and left employees dispirited. Why? Because the science is settled, there is no need for more basic research, the government says. No doubt many will experience a case of schadenfreude as they see those who have long claimed "the science is settle

16:50:36 BingoBoingo: d" face the inevitable and logical consequence of that stance."

16:50:49 ben_vulpes: HAHAHA

16:50:51 ben_vulpes: rich.

16:51:00 mircea_popescu: lol.

16:51:12 ben_vulpes: christ that's entertaining

16:51:22 mircea_popescu: well, the science is setled alright : there is no science in "climate blabla, back to more productive uses.

16:51:44 mircea_popescu: such as i dunno wtf these schmucks did before becoming "scientists", but i imagine revolutionizing keyboards and inventing better paper clips

16:52:10 ben_vulpes: how about disrupting the blowjob?

16:52:19 ben_vulpes: i guess that'd be sv

16:53:09 BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> how about disrupting the blowjob? << picking the long hairs out of the short hairs?

16:54:05 ben_vulpes: subject of sv, it looks like i'll be on hold with intuit until the halvening

16:54:30 mircea_popescu: and in further "who the fuck runs away in heels" news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1axg3As9J1qddd4so1_1280.jpg

16:54:31 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q7biiF )

16:54:55 mircea_popescu: which one was inuit again ? the useless one ?

16:55:04 ben_vulpes: they're all useless

16:55:34 ben_vulpes: but intuit goes so far as to lobby against simplifying the american taxtuation so they can do 'ez' taxes for derps

16:56:00 mircea_popescu: lol

16:56:16 ben_vulpes: all i want is a form for hours and a button that remits appropriately

16:56:26 ben_vulpes: and apparently i have to go through intuit for this

16:57:02 ben_vulpes: small biz is worst biz

16:57:44 mircea_popescu: move to romania, run it from there ; small biz costs you a few % in taxes and you get a person to do all your filings + basic legal support for a coupla hundred dollars/month.

16:58:04 ben_vulpes: that is precisely the plan next time.

16:58:14 ben_vulpes: also not taking fucking fiat.

16:58:22 mircea_popescu: you can take fiat just fine.

16:58:29 mircea_popescu: SEPA member, even easier than in the us.

16:58:31 mircea_popescu: also free.

16:59:53 ben_vulpes: huh

17:11:50 danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400226 << hah, she blocked me on twatter a month ago

17:11:50 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 11:42:56; BingoBoingo: Spoiler alert, it was a trap.

17:11:54 danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400441 << i had to double check the list, surprised she wasn't already a lord, but we're off in another world this channel isn't always aware of, with quite another perspective it seems

17:11:54 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 15:10:58; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes next month's s.mg filing might clarify.

17:14:13 ben_vulpes: "The cybercriminal reached out to Motherboard through an apparently compromised DOJ email account earlier last week, and claimed to have obtained the stolen data by compromising that account and then using it to access a DOJ portal."

17:14:33 ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: i mean how am i supposed to know what's going on in the far-flung provinces

17:15:16 ben_vulpes: have been following the public feedz, yes, but much happens below the surface

17:15:32 shinohai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400902 <<< was also banned from btctalk for 5 days for "trolling" according to het twitter danielpbarron

17:15:32 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 17:11:50; danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400226 << hah, she blocked me on twatter a month ago

17:15:55 ben_vulpes: 5 days lol they do timeouts now?

17:16:02 ben_vulpes: "go sit in the corner! you've been bad."

17:16:22 shinohai: kek

17:16:28 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400906 << where wut

17:16:28 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 17:14:13; ben_vulpes: "The cybercriminal reached out to Motherboard through an apparently compromised DOJ email account earlier last week, and claimed to have obtained the stolen data by compromising that account and then using it to access a DOJ portal."

17:16:39 asciilifeform: and srsly what's with this habit of linkless quote

17:16:44 asciilifeform: we feed google now ?

17:16:54 ben_vulpes: scusi, scusi

17:16:54 ben_vulpes: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/hacker-publishes-personal-info-of-20000-fbi-agents

17:16:55 assbot: Hacker Publishes Personal Info of 20,000 FBI Agents | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q7dHKr )

17:16:59 asciilifeform: ty ben_vulpes

17:17:21 asciilifeform: also what part of this is seeekrit

17:17:27 asciilifeform: who works for usg is public record

17:17:35 ben_vulpes: their eeeemailz!

17:17:39 ben_vulpes: iono man

17:17:58 ben_vulpes: i had a pertinent question before the payroll people distracted me

17:19:06 *: ben_vulpes is considering a new irc client

17:20:15 jurov: kakobrekla dang you completely filter unicode on bitbet? my translation now looks like abortion :( https://bitbet.us/bet/1247/parties-smer-sd-and-sns-to-win-supermajority-in/#c5617

17:20:16 assbot: BitBet - Parties SMER-SD and SNS to win supermajority in Slovak parliament :: 0.37 B (46%) on Yes, 0.43 B (54%) on No | closing in 3 weeks 2 days | weight: 84`005 (100`000 to 10`000) ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q5uOGb )

17:21:53 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: try 'irssi'

17:22:00 jurov: it's not going to be v-ified or somesuch

17:22:10 ben_vulpes: (vil-ified!)

17:22:24 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the suggestions continue to stack up

17:22:59 ben_vulpes: an appealing thing about irssi is that it has a solarized light mode

17:23:06 ben_vulpes: i could get my whole experience into solarized light

17:24:00 *: danielpbarron also recommends irssi

17:24:10 danielpbarron: been using it off and on for a decade

17:24:35 danielpbarron: highly customizable, simple, runs on command line, in screen

17:25:01 asciilifeform: wtf, what light mode, it's a tty proggy

17:25:15 ben_vulpes: i like my colors to match!

17:25:31 ben_vulpes: i motherfucking hate switching over to a dark terminal after using a light text editor

17:25:34 ben_vulpes: mother

17:25:35 ben_vulpes: fucking

17:25:35 ben_vulpes: hate

17:25:39 danielpbarron: you can color it however you like; I color nicknames based on my rating of them in the WoT

17:25:49 ben_vulpes: no i want the whole screen tan-ish

17:26:09 ben_vulpes: switching from light to dark and back is very painful for my head.

17:26:13 BingoBoingo: It's a shame no one still connects to IRC by touching two wires together rhythmically

17:26:14 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: so set light terminal ? or dark text editor ??

17:26:47 ben_vulpes: light terminal, yes. specific color scheme at that. and no no fucking dark text editor because i have to pull up web pages and am right back at the original problem!

17:26:52 phf: ben_vulpes: what's wrong with erc!

17:27:00 kakobrekla: jurov will change that at some point

17:27:06 ben_vulpes: phf: it's fine, great, doesn't bouncer well though.

17:27:15 jurov: kakobrekla: please remove it completely, it's completely misleading

17:27:48 ben_vulpes: phf: the best erc setup i've come up with is to run it through mosh in a terminal

17:27:53 jurov: it changed "ÁNO" to "NO" which is the opposite

17:27:58 kakobrekla: not a single comment ever got removed and i dont think we will start now

17:28:12 kakobrekla: cant you elaborate it differently with a subsequent comment?

17:28:17 BingoBoingo: jurov: Which side of the election are we rooting for?

17:28:18 phf: ben_vulpes: if you're using znc, then http://paste.lisp.org/display/306886 might help

17:28:19 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q5vRWv )

17:28:24 ben_vulpes: phf: this means i have to maintain a mental map for "emacs on my server" and "emacs on my desktop

17:28:27 ben_vulpes: oh god i tried znc

17:28:39 *: ben_vulpes looks

17:29:13 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: tried? it broke ?

17:29:23 phf: i don't have an opinion on it. i have znc, bitlbee and erc all very lightly configured to work together, and i basically don't use anything else for comms

17:29:27 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Give up and just open up your NIC buffer in ed to irc

17:29:35 ben_vulpes: i think i even did erc-znc mode at one point

17:29:43 jurov: BingoBoingo: I listed the biggest douches, rooting against them

17:30:10 BingoBoingo: jurov: Aha. So like the local version of the Trump-Clitler alliance

17:31:05 ben_vulpes: bitlbee huh

17:31:52 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i have a *million* complaints against znc

17:32:02 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: say moar ?

17:32:18 ben_vulpes: let us start with the completely fucking retarded web admin panel

17:32:36 asciilifeform: nobody forces you to use it

17:32:43 asciilifeform: can config with bare teeth

17:32:48 jurov: Interesting there are some bets despite I have not advertised it yet. Local bitcoiners do follow bitbet :)

17:32:53 ben_vulpes: then there's some default password implementation the specifics of which i forget but was miserably bad

17:32:55 ben_vulpes: what else

17:33:04 ben_vulpes: oh can't edit conf files and reload iirc

17:33:12 asciilifeform: wai wut

17:33:25 asciilifeform: or what, you want it to reload itself somehow ?

17:33:27 ben_vulpes: do i misremember?

17:33:32 asciilifeform: should it also massage the wife for you ?

17:34:06 mats: lol

17:34:09 kakobrekla: ofc you can edit conf

17:34:19 ben_vulpes: o.O

17:34:26 asciilifeform: aha

17:34:53 BingoBoingo: jurov: How do you know that those bets aren't all from a degenerate like myself who just wants betting action?

17:35:14 jurov: you dream shatterer, you!

17:35:33 BingoBoingo: But no, I don't have any bets on that yet

17:36:22 phf: kill -hup presumably works

17:38:49 jurov: znc indeed is prone to overwriting conf, best to stop it and then edit if you must

17:38:59 phf: somebody here i believe sponsored otp for znc plugin

17:39:46 jurov: kek. but it's true somebody here sponsored otp for znc plugin

17:40:01 phf: ah, right

17:41:52 BingoBoingo: jurov: Ok, now I've bet on it

17:43:28 punkman: where is this znc otp plugin?

17:43:59 phf: punkman: https://github.com/mmilata/znc-otr

17:44:00 assbot: GitHub - mmilata/znc-otr: OTR encryption plugin for ZNC IRC bouncer ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q7gNhB )

17:44:10 punkman: ah otr

17:44:14 jurov: iirc it went into official distribution

17:44:29 jurov: heh somebody read otc?

17:44:47 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu i was looking at generalizing the 'oracle' resistance from cramer-shoup to other systems

17:44:47 gribble: The operation succeeded.

17:45:00 trinque: my setup was much like phf's, had a few znc crashes/freezes and trashed the lot for weechat in a tmux somewhere

17:46:00 trinque: tried weechat.el, will probably end up using that when I bother to do something sensible around hightlight notifications

17:46:20 punkman: http://pitchfork.com/news/63083-ghostface-killah-says-shithead-martin-shkreli-should-release-one-of-a-kind-wu-tang-album/

17:46:22 assbot: Ghostface Killah Says “Shithead" Martin Shkreli Should Release One-of-a-Kind Wu-Tang Album | News | Pitchfork ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q5xSCj )

17:46:24 trinque: I'll have this done just in time to switch to gossipd

17:46:31 trinque: along with the new deedbot, lol

17:48:54 jurov: gossipd will have irc interface?

17:49:15 phf: dbus to adium

17:49:45 PeterL: just needs a bot here and listening to gossipd to transmit messages between platforms, right?

17:50:52 trinque: jurov: naw, just in time to rewrite

17:51:13 asciilifeform: jurov: my unreleased prototype is driven using (local) irc listener, yes

17:51:26 trinque: oh, how bout that

17:51:38 phf: asciilifeform: it actually speaks a subset of irc then?

17:51:47 asciilifeform: phf: only for frontend

17:51:49 jurov: count on alf to have unreleased prototypes for everything :D

17:51:57 asciilifeform: jurov: they are usually unreleased for ~reason~

17:53:11 asciilifeform: and irc frontend makes sense, thinkaboutit, nobody wants to use a cruddy ui hacked up for the occasion, everyone already has something reasonable that is irctronic

17:53:36 phf: asciilifeform: is the whole thing in c?

17:54:01 asciilifeform: phf: presently

17:55:43 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7vsgzW6Br1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg << i wonder if all teh people that are into this stuff realise that the only reason a woman's skin is soft is specifically that she doesn't go around barefood & naked in chains.

17:55:45 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q7i8EQ )

17:56:30 asciilifeform: l0l must be like the fingers of guitarist !

17:56:48 mircea_popescu: aha

17:56:53 jurov: rly? i thought it's cuz of the lotions they use to tan the hide

17:57:20 mircea_popescu: i suspek the only effectiveness of the lotioning is that it keeps them from doing stuff / touching the spot for a while

17:57:38 deedbot-: [Qntra] Steam Legacy Demolished - http://qntra.net/2016/02/steam-legacy-demolished/

17:57:46 mircea_popescu: not that anyone agrees with me on the topic in teh household(s)

17:57:57 phf: as demonstrated by outside-bombai indian woman feet, walking around barefoot all the time doesn't do your skin any sort of justice

17:59:19 mircea_popescu: depends if treebark is your notion of foot justice.

18:00:34 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1400945 << interesting idea

18:00:34 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 17:25:39; danielpbarron: you can color it however you like; I color nicknames based on my rating of them in the WoT

18:00:58 danielpbarron: wow BingoBoingo the most clickbaity title you ever qntra'd. I was very confused to find it wasn't about the game company 'Steam'

18:01:16 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: What, guy can't spend 28 words on a joke?

18:01:36 BingoBoingo: In news from out Nigerian prince http://qntra.net/2016/02/dprk-launches-satellite-into-space/#comment-45375

18:01:38 assbot: DPRK Launches Satellite Into Space | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q7iM5v )

18:01:53 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yeah seriously, none of that. it's ok for blogs but not q

18:02:08 BingoBoingo: Alright

18:02:19 BingoBoingo: Take it down?

18:02:25 mircea_popescu: can stay, just as a policy

18:02:26 PeterL: you could put it on your personal blog?

18:02:39 BingoBoingo: I keep forgetting that thing exists.

18:02:48 danielpbarron: i've seen the game thing pop up on social media, something about they are or might be accepting bitcoin

18:03:01 mircea_popescu: and in other "strange cargo cult worshippers of incomprehensible machine-god" news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7qiu7mzXa1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg

18:03:02 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q7iUSp )

18:03:19 BingoBoingo: Something derping about them and Bitpay. Been spending much of the morning looking for stories of steam explosions or other disasters.

18:08:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not a bad idea. did it get anywhere ?

18:09:07 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-02-2016#1401022 << quite.

18:09:07 assbot: Logged on 09-02-2016 17:53:11; asciilifeform: and irc frontend makes sense, thinkaboutit, nobody wants to use a cruddy ui hacked up for the occasion, everyone already has something reasonable that is irctronic

18:09:16 mircea_popescu: cheat as much as humanly possible

18:09:22 mircea_popescu: then turn into your wolf form and cheat some more.

18:10:54 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was trying to figure out if it is separable from his use of the diffie hellman decision problem as the basis for the system

18:11:23 asciilifeform: also interesting property, in c-s, you lose the chosen-ciphertext attack resistance if you split the message.

18:12:09 asciilifeform: gonna have to cheat in wolf form, somehow.

18:13:24 asciilifeform: see, i'm unwilling to entirely discount the 'quantum' calculator thing.

18:14:28 mircea_popescu: soit

18:14:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64350 @ 0.00056847 = 36.581 BTC [-]

18:17:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which is why i'd rather not live and die solely by the discrete log problem.

18:18:03 asciilifeform: (or, for that matter, integer factorization. which, for n00bz, i will point out that rsa has never actually been formally reduced to!)

18:18:13 deedbot-: [Qntra] Dotcom Extradition Appeal Set To Begin August 29 - http://qntra.net/2016/02/dotcom-extradition-appeal-set-to-begin-august-29/

18:19:33 BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/02/us-department-of-education-driving-tuition-increases/#comment-45435 << alright, who's the troll

18:19:34 assbot: US Department Of Education Driving Tuition Increases | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q7kJ1K )

18:24:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75897 @ 0.00057458 = 43.6089 BTC [+]

18:24:55 PeterL: don't you collect commenters' emails, do you have to ask?

18:25:35 BingoBoingo: PeterL: We do, but it would be bad journalism to disclose such things. And really how often are we actually going to test emails anyways.

18:27:16 BingoBoingo: As long as the email hasn't been used in spam, email isn't going to be the thing that makes or breaks a comment's journey past the spam filter

18:27:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i on the other hand am more than willing to die by this imaginary "quantum" computing.

18:27:42 PeterL: how is that comment troll-y?

18:28:00 mircea_popescu: it has exactly 0% chances to exist. if it did exist, however, the changes would be far reaching enough to render any present arrangements void anyway.

18:28:01 mircea_popescu: so...

18:28:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the latter is demonstrably false

18:28:46 asciilifeform: and yes, it is an inflatable tank

18:28:49 asciilifeform: presently - imaginary

18:28:53 mircea_popescu: huh ?

18:29:01 BingoBoingo: PeterL: It mentioned the Bern, just kinda assumed it was. Didn't read too closely.

18:29:02 asciilifeform: but speeding up factoring is quite physically plausible in a variety of ways

18:29:07 mircea_popescu: ah that. sure.

18:29:26 mircea_popescu: was specifically discussing "quantum" as the literary fanon concept

18:29:58 PeterL: BingoBoingo but the comment agrees with your article

18:30:07 mircea_popescu: it is pointedly NOT a scientific notion, for the record, not anymore than communism is ; and in no danger of ever becoming one, such as occasionally sf items did become.

18:30:45 mircea_popescu: it belongs in the same heap as the audible / visible lasers, the bullets that spark off rock walls & al.

18:30:46 BingoBoingo: Ah. I guess a point could be made that if Obama's Hope and Change didn't fix the problem Bernie's isn't likely to either.

18:31:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: atomic bullet!1111

18:31:31 mircea_popescu: and so no, i'm not paying anyone anything to add "lightsaber armor" to my clothing.

18:31:44 asciilifeform: l0l!

18:31:50 BingoBoingo: PeterL: Maybe It's just getting late. My troll/humor doesn't seem to be calibrated right.

18:31:57 BingoBoingo: BRB meat downtime

18:32:21 PeterL: noon is late now?

18:32:31 mircea_popescu: i wouldn't per se object to girl wearing "lightsaber armorer" cocktail dress, if that's the fashion, as long as it grabs her tits and waist right etc.

18:32:45 thestringpuller: lightsaber armorer?

18:32:53 thestringpuller: !s lightsaber armorer

18:32:54 assbot: 0 results for 'lightsaber armorer' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=lightsaber+armorer

18:32:54 BingoBoingo: PeterL: I woke up at 22:00 local time. Hazard of working Internet full time.

18:32:54 mircea_popescu: "quantum computing proof"

18:33:16 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja ever read feynman's original paper on the subj ?

18:33:22 mircea_popescu: yes.

18:33:44 asciilifeform: so why specifically can we rule the thing out physically

18:33:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3831 @ 0.00057244 = 2.193 BTC [-] {2}

18:34:08 mircea_popescu: it is not a bad paper. it is also not a bad thing to look for. unlike "cold fusion" and like "dark energy extraction", it has no actual merit for fundamental reasons.

18:34:18 mircea_popescu: "we" can't. i, for my own needs, do, is all.

18:34:55 asciilifeform: also, i will defend the notion that crypto - composes. usefully. the contrary notion is due 100% to retarded implementers, who belong in fermenting vat

18:35:20 mircea_popescu: crypto MAY compose usefully. assuming composition is a solution is in itself braindamage.

18:35:21 asciilifeform: if the composed elements are FULLY independent - composes.

18:35:33 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is useful the way that the rng xor is useful

18:35:42 asciilifeform: you are ~guaranteed~ the strength of the strongest.

18:35:47 mircea_popescu: also asuming that A USEFUL WAY TO COMPOSE is always available is nonsense. and certainly asuming that the obvious composition is correct.

18:35:59 asciilifeform: not always available - you gotta build it.

18:36:28 asciilifeform: and, again, if the ciphertrons are INDEPENDENT, you can't do any damage by adding a damaged link downstream.

18:37:17 mircea_popescu: just as long as this a) doesn't invalidate assumptions required by one in a way operator couldn't verify and b) they are actually independent, as opposed to "i thought they were"

18:37:24 asciilifeform: well no shit

18:37:29 mircea_popescu: no, but this is important.

18:37:32 asciilifeform: see the 'implementer belongs in fermentation vat' point

18:37:34 mircea_popescu: on the strength of the record to date.

18:37:53 asciilifeform: !s cut abdomen open

18:37:54 assbot: 1 results for 'cut abdomen open' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cut+abdomen+open

18:38:03 mircea_popescu: sure. just, the bleeding here is hidden.

18:38:20 asciilifeform: all crypto bleeds hidden.

18:38:38 asciilifeform: sapper is a better job, at least you're dead right away

18:38:49 asciilifeform: instead of walking around buzzing with maggots for 20 years without knowing

18:39:48 mircea_popescu: aha

18:54:06 mircea_popescu: hmm looks like qntra ate my comment

19:37:17 asciilifeform: http://qntra.net/2016/02/us-department-of-education-driving-tuition-increases/#comment-45443

19:37:18 assbot: US Department Of Education Driving Tuition Increases | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tb2b0G )

20:01:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42400 @ 0.00056825 = 24.0938 BTC [-]

20:09:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82400 @ 0.00057415 = 47.31 BTC [+] {6}

20:21:39 jurov: !up guest7187

20:29:49 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://fraudsters.com/2016/btmsr-block-cipher-competition/#comment-116484 < if you care about the curios. spam filter had them before.

20:29:50 assbot: B,TMSR~ Block Cipher Competition on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1nW6SOY )

20:30:55 asciilifeform: interesting

20:31:50 mircea_popescu: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-February/012412.html << this is marginally lulzy.

20:31:51 assbot: [bitcoin-dev] BIP proposal: Increase block size limit to 2 megabytes ... ( http://bit.ly/1nW7bcy )

20:32:12 polarbeard: I've doxygened trb, https://polarbeard.github.io/trb-doxygen/init_8cpp.html

20:32:13 assbot: trb: trb/release/bitcoin/src/init.cpp File Reference ... ( http://bit.ly/1nW7cxh )

20:33:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i don't see what is so hot about the composition thing

20:33:14 asciilifeform: anybody can do that, it was actually the first thing i suggested

20:33:16 mircea_popescu: i don't think anything'sd so hot.

20:33:22 asciilifeform: ah.

20:33:42 asciilifeform: what i was wondering is how the author of the comment came to think that this fits the specs given

20:34:40 asciilifeform: srsly, classic example of 'cryptographers' playing confusion mind games with own selves

20:35:29 asciilifeform: i think i will go to a racing competition; and submit an 'enchilada cipher' car, a junkyard carcass of old ferrari welded to remnants of a crashed mazerati.

20:35:35 asciilifeform: FASTER THAN EITHER!11111

20:37:06 mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/Scams/comments/44ogum/coinodealcom_western_union_scam_300/ << why the fuck does redditard have 300 dollars.

20:37:08 assbot: Coinodeal.com Western Union Scam -$300 : Scams ... ( http://bit.ly/1KDCKCh )

20:42:43 PeterL: asciilifeform re hasty pudding cypher: didn't you say key tables are evil?

20:43:19 asciilifeform: absolutely.

20:43:57 asciilifeform: and srsly, i don't even see the point in thinking about that one.

20:44:02 asciilifeform: it is junk, plain and simple.

20:45:19 mircea_popescu: !up minzie_

20:45:34 PeterL: hi minzie_ who are you?

20:45:51 minzie_: hi

20:46:40 minzie_: looking for some brokerage in btc

20:47:05 thestringpuller: minzie_: jurov is your guy

20:47:41 minzie_: he isnt online at the moment, is he?

20:48:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://www.crypto.com/papers/turtle.pdf << slightly less retarded

20:48:15 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1nW9350 )

20:48:20 asciilifeform: 's✏ø✪ü❒ý✠❞öÒó✍☎✗ö●✏➉✝❞ò✦ó❙ô✺✝✬❄✦ñ❞÷➃ýó♦✂

20:48:23 asciilifeform: ñ✚✖Þô❙ñ✛õ✗ö➍÷➃ø❊ò❖✂✛ôÖô❙ö➍ó✦÷➃ý➴þ❜ÿ✁❞ö✄✂

20:48:26 mircea_popescu: ...

20:48:27 asciilifeform: þ➍ýù✆☎✪ö➍÷➃ò❵➔✘✦☞ýó✍☎❵ó✍☎✪öÑø✪ñ❞ó✍✝➸û➵üö➒ö✱✰✛þ❨ö➍ù✪ó✟ý❒ñ②ø✪ò✾ñ✚✖✵qðó

20:48:31 asciilifeform: s ✳ ✈❈✝❞ø✪õ❧qðt❧s✉➢✻✈✘➣✔✓■✴✰ú✗÷✟ó✟ü❒ö❐✝❞ø➵õt❉✗✝➸÷➃ö✩✝➸÷✟ö❵þ❨ñ②ø✪þ❨ö➍ù✪ó✟ú✆✝❞ü❒ü✠✂ì✏❞ö➍÷✥✂✤ò✟ý➴ô❙ù➵üö✚✜ú✴✾☎✗ö➍÷✟ö✩✝➸÷✟ö ø✪ñ þ❨ñ②ø✪ò✦ó✍✝❞ø●ó✟ò✄✓❀û➵ýó

20:48:36 asciilifeform: ù❛ö➍÷➃ô✾ú✗ó✍✝➸ó✟ýñ②ø✪òÞñ❞÷■☎✆✝➸÷➃õ✛ÿ➜þ❨ñ✛õ✗ö➶õáó✍✝➸û➵ü❒ö➶ò✄✜✵✴✰ú✗÷✟ó✟üö✚◗ ò☞÷✟ö➶þ➍ú✗÷➃ò➃ý✠✏❞ö❏ò✦ó✦÷➃ú➵þ❨ó✟ú✗÷✟ö❏ù➵÷✟ñ✽✏✛ý❒õ✗ö➶ò✶✝ßø✎✝➸ó✟ú✪÷✥✝❞ü✝ôÖö➶þ✥☎✎✝❞ø

20:48:37 mircea_popescu: god ima have to kick him again aren't i.

20:48:39 polarbeard: there we go

20:48:42 asciilifeform: ✪ý➴ò✟ô➩✖❭ñ❞÷

20:48:44 asciilifeform: aargh

20:48:47 asciilifeform: wtf

20:48:53 *: asciilifeform kicks terminal

20:48:56 mircea_popescu: you need a better macbook.

20:49:11 asciilifeform: better hands.

20:49:12 polarbeard: I'm evaling that just in case

20:49:21 minzie_: xD

20:49:30 mircea_popescu: ➃ << i didn't even know slut brands were a html character.

20:49:57 asciilifeform: nah that is clearly a billiard ball

20:50:55 mircea_popescu: "Bath Salts: As of July 22, 2011 possession of Bath Salts is a Class 4 Felony with the same sentencing as above." ahahaha wut.

20:51:08 mircea_popescu: us-plebs not allowed soft skin aha

20:51:35 PeterL: it's a drug name

20:51:44 polarbeard: just rebrand it to butt salts

20:52:56 asciilifeform: anyway mircea_popescu , m. blaze's 'turtle' is, afaik, the only ~claimed~ provably-hard block cipher (non-otp) that i was able to track down.

20:53:17 mircea_popescu: PeterL what drug is that in sane people speak ?

20:54:12 PeterL: methylenedioxypyrovalerone

20:54:39 mircea_popescu: so my sal inglesa bath salts are immune ?

20:54:40 PeterL: sort of like a bulkier version of amphetamine

20:55:06 mircea_popescu: (magnesium sulphate)

20:55:30 PeterL: nah mag sulphate got demoted from the name, it's fine to use

20:56:01 mircea_popescu: ah ok then :D

20:56:37 PeterL: isn't it great when people take one word with a definite meaning and slap it onto something completely unrelated?

20:56:52 asciilifeform: he also came up with a hash algo, 'tortuga'

20:57:34 mircea_popescu: PeterL basically the us' main export product.

20:57:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. was looking into this.

20:57:50 minzie_: anyone know some good bitcoin trading software??

20:57:58 asciilifeform: or hm, not him

20:58:02 asciilifeform: but based on 'turtle'

20:58:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ah, you found it before ?

20:58:46 mircea_popescu: minzie_ can you be specific ? what are you trying to do ?

20:59:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well no, just now

20:59:21 asciilifeform: ah

20:59:25 minzie_: want to trade in exchanges

21:00:06 mircea_popescu: remarkably undocumented online.

21:00:31 mircea_popescu: minzie_ iirc adlai was peddling in that water.

21:02:23 mircea_popescu: http://www.osti.gov/eprints/topicpages/documents/record/678/3823036.html << if this is to be believed it was introduced by a dude named blaze at upenn, and it's a feistel derivative.

21:02:23 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1nWaAbq )

21:03:18 mircea_popescu: "Most modern publickey ciphers are designed to reduce or at least relate closely to some long?

21:03:19 mircea_popescu: studied problem that is believed to be difficult, such as factoring or finding discrete logarithms of

21:03:19 mircea_popescu: large integers. Modern symmetrickey ciphers, on the other hand, can rarely be reduced to widely?

21:03:19 mircea_popescu: studied hard problems and so are frequently designed specifically to resist known cryptanalytic"

21:03:31 mircea_popescu: absolute paydirt. WHY "can rarely be". who told you ? etc.

21:04:14 asciilifeform: not 'rarely'; never.

21:04:20 asciilifeform: to date.

21:05:14 asciilifeform: anyway, took me most of a week to dredge this up,

21:05:22 asciilifeform: and it had to be by looking at ancient sci.crypt crud

21:05:41 asciilifeform: fwiw.

21:06:12 mircea_popescu: there's a difference between "can rarely be" and "never is". they do not speak of the same world.

21:06:18 asciilifeform: well yes.

21:06:30 mircea_popescu: what i wish to know is how did he establish his ought.

21:06:31 asciilifeform: prolly oughta have said 'have never.'

21:06:40 mircea_popescu: but it isn't what he actually said.

21:06:46 *: asciilifeform reads, again

21:07:02 mircea_popescu: when people go all scholarly and shit on me, and start with the "We show" bullcrap i fucking expect them to use the words they mean to use.

21:07:26 asciilifeform: anyway i don't give a fuck what he said, i want to know if the proof actually proves anything of interest.

21:07:56 asciilifeform: if there were 1,001 alleged proofs, i'd throw out this one perhaps, because annoying

21:08:01 asciilifeform: but there is 1 alleged proof.

21:08:04 asciilifeform: and a whole lot of silence.

21:08:47 mircea_popescu: btw, how's the "ethereum ecosystem" doing these days ? all the shit they were going to launch months ago... just around the corner!

21:08:55 mircea_popescu: are the brick and mortar ethereum things in yet ?

21:09:03 *: asciilifeform has nfi

21:12:21 asciilifeform: interestingly, blaze uses the term 'cryptovariable' in his code

21:12:33 asciilifeform: this is traditional, archaic nsa term for... key

21:12:46 asciilifeform: it has been a very long time since i saw this.

21:12:57 mircea_popescu: well this item is from mid 90s, sat buried for the interval.

21:13:14 asciilifeform: and wtf is with the character encoding in that pdf.

21:13:18 asciilifeform: martian.

21:13:23 mircea_popescu: smells to me like long dead bait job some 3rd line derp is trying to spring back to life on us, but hery.

21:13:44 asciilifeform: remarkably stale for bait

21:13:56 mircea_popescu: i'd almost be mildly insulted, if it weren't for the fact that my fucking spam filter identified it correctly on the first pass.

21:14:03 asciilifeform: but interesting nonetheless, if i were hitler i would order 10,001 'provably np-hard' ciphers to be created.

21:14:16 mircea_popescu: next year's crop of openbazaars

21:14:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to be clear, i'm discussing the 'turtle' paper

21:14:28 mircea_popescu: hey, btw, did THAT vc powered bs mix ever come to anything ?

21:14:28 asciilifeform: vs the two linked

21:14:54 asciilifeform: (or did this, too, come up in the spam filter)

21:15:28 mircea_popescu: myeah.

21:15:50 mircea_popescu: wait... i never published this item

21:15:58 mircea_popescu: uh...

21:16:04 asciilifeform: i found 'turtle' by hand

21:16:11 asciilifeform: from ancient crud pile

21:16:13 mircea_popescu: i thought you had just went from a comment i just published. except i hadn't.

21:16:14 asciilifeform: as explained earlier

21:16:30 asciilifeform: note, i have not gone over the proof!

21:16:42 mircea_popescu: me either as i just saw it.

21:16:50 mircea_popescu: so you were independently looking at this and from before ?

21:16:56 mircea_popescu: what linked it ? where ?

21:18:41 asciilifeform: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/sci.crypt/ZlqcPy9opnY/r6V4ntk4IFEJ

21:18:43 assbot: Google Groupes ... ( http://bit.ly/1SesWBc )

21:18:46 asciilifeform: ^ not linked as such, but mentioned

21:19:01 asciilifeform: and no, i don't have a vintage copy of this thing on dead tree, or the like

21:19:56 asciilifeform: i dug up this old luger in the forest, aha. and i've no idea whether it fires forwards or backwards, of yet.

21:21:37 asciilifeform: further dig reveals that it was mentioned in a few places, fwiw.

21:22:24 asciilifeform: http://crypto.com << herr blaze himself, apparently. ask him.

21:22:24 assbot: Matt Blaze / crypto.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1nWcSr5 )

21:23:01 mircea_popescu: nice domain, you know ?

21:23:20 asciilifeform: oh hey

21:23:27 asciilifeform: he's the one who broke randi's cipher

21:23:37 asciilifeform: http://www.crypto.com/blog/law_school_exam

21:23:38 assbot: Matt Blaze: Exhaustive Search Goes to Law School ... ( http://bit.ly/1nWd0qk )

21:23:42 asciilifeform: and the rest of his blog, lulzy

21:24:13 mircea_popescu: http://www.crypto.com/blog/celltapping/

21:24:14 assbot: Matt Blaze: How Law Enforcement Tracks Cellular Phones ... ( http://bit.ly/1nWd4Xl )

21:28:38 asciilifeform: i see nothing that sets off my allergies, astonishingly

21:28:43 asciilifeform: on blaze's www

21:31:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider inviting him here ?

21:31:24 mircea_popescu: you do it!

21:31:37 asciilifeform: i'm not a famous k00l d00d

21:34:12 asciilifeform: oh and now i'm curious what the spam said

21:34:37 mircea_popescu: im sure that he had his fill of those. talk of interesting things to him instead.

21:34:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just that, "look into turtle"

21:35:06 asciilifeform: i'ma write to herr blaze, then.

21:35:21 asciilifeform: let the man speak for himself.

21:39:49 mircea_popescu: re hasty pudding : 2^120 weak keys. heh.

21:40:07 asciilifeform: massive turd

21:40:29 asciilifeform: and when i first saw it mentioned, some years back, i actually thought it was named for shitting oneself

21:40:39 asciilifeform: and that it might be called 'to make hasty pudding'

21:40:45 asciilifeform: but apparently this is not a thing

21:41:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, another thought occurs : maybe the way to go is make the key a matrix and go for something like the maximum volume submatrix problem somewhere in there.

21:41:56 mircea_popescu: have the message specify the conditionation, and then how the fuck are you going to extract it if you don't know what you're starting from

21:42:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i actually started with this

21:42:14 mircea_popescu: ha!

21:42:17 asciilifeform: it is tricky.

21:42:26 mircea_popescu: listen this is getting ridiculous lol.

21:42:28 asciilifeform: impossible to say ~average case~ complexity

21:42:39 mircea_popescu: well... yeah i dunno how you'd do that.

21:42:40 asciilifeform: hey maths are the same for everybody.

21:42:50 asciilifeform: can't fault if mircea_popescu and i come up with same arithmetic.

21:42:52 mircea_popescu: what we want is some actual methods to calculate the difficulty curve over the space

21:43:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78900 @ 0.00056769 = 44.7907 BTC [-]

21:43:05 asciilifeform: (lulzier when we get ~different~ arithmetic!11 as in the otp mega-thread)

21:43:34 mircea_popescu: lol

21:43:39 mircea_popescu: rare, luckily.

21:44:03 mircea_popescu: anyway, the more i think about this tyhe more im convinced our problems are really one problem : the absence of a proved mechanism to create the difficulty graph of a primitive.

21:44:22 mircea_popescu: and this should NOT in general be as hard as to actually break any one key.

21:44:45 asciilifeform: incidentally, i suppose that this is when i confess that this is actually my day job

21:44:50 mircea_popescu: ie the problem could be reducxible

21:44:53 mircea_popescu: hahaha

21:44:54 asciilifeform: ... judging algorithmic complexities of various algos

21:45:45 mircea_popescu: but you know what i want ? i want it to output a fucking graph!

21:46:15 mircea_popescu: looking exactly like this : https://chart.googleapis.com/chart?chs=240x45&cht=ls&chco=FFFFFF,FF9900,FFFFFF&chd=t:100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,1

21:46:15 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1SevuiN )

21:46:15 mircea_popescu: 00,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100,100|43,49,55,55,57,64,67,65,65,65,65,66,74,74,74,74,74,74,74,75,75,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,76,76,76,76,76,76,76,76,76,76,75,75,75,75,75,74,74,73,73,73,73,73,73,72,72,72,72,72,71,71,71,71,71,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,73,72,73,71,65,64,65,63,63,63,63,62,62,62,55,55,54,54,55,64,64,64,64,64,64|14,15,17,17,18,22,24,24,

21:46:15 mircea_popescu: 24,24,24,25,33,33,33,34,34,34,34,35,35,36,36,36,36,36,36,36,36,36,42,42,42,42,42,42,42,42,42,42,43,43,43,43,43,43,43,44,44,44,44,44,44,44,44,44,44,44,45,45,45,45,45,50,50,50,50,50,50,50,50,50,50,50,50,50,50,51,55,57,63,64,65,68,68,68,68,69,69,69,78,78,78,79,80,99,99,99,99,99,99&chls=1|1|1&chm=B,3699a3,0,0,0|B,d01135,1,0,0|D,555555,2,0:0,2

21:46:20 mircea_popescu: holy shit what the fuck happened

21:46:33 asciilifeform: ahahahaha

21:46:37 mircea_popescu: oh wow, bitbet uses google charts, i forgot. anyway. likew one of the bitbet charts!

21:46:59 mircea_popescu: you know, so this algo has N keys, fine, the space is N. caqlculate the complexity for all of them, sort the weakest to the left, draw it for me.

21:47:59 mircea_popescu: in principle, at 100% granularity this would then result in an image 2^256 or however many pixesl wide. fine.

21:48:01 mircea_popescu: let me zoom out.

21:48:12 mircea_popescu: show me the 1024kb graph of arbitrary scheme.

21:48:19 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2015#1045632 << see also

21:48:19 assbot: Logged on 07-03-2015 18:12:58; asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'for your convenience we have packaged the defective transistors separately' ? (famous)

21:48:50 asciilifeform: if you ~know~ the class of weak keys, you can define them not-keys and have no weak keys !

21:49:08 asciilifeform: like we do for rsa

21:50:59 mircea_popescu: aha!

21:51:35 mircea_popescu: but currently, a box wherein you input code on one end, and it outputs this peculiar graph at arbitrary zoom level is the most valuable computer i can think of.

21:51:42 mircea_popescu: yes, it may take a while to zoom you in. ok!

21:56:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu loves his ulam spirals, l0l

21:56:50 mircea_popescu: :D

21:57:38 mircea_popescu: hey, some of us are visual thinkers.

22:00:33 asciilifeform: in all seriousness, i mathematicize mentally more or less wholly geometrically.

22:29:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70305 @ 0.00056331 = 39.6035 BTC [-] {2}

22:31:57 asciilifeform: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7237825 << vintage lulz

22:31:58 assbot: This sort of thing is a recurring theme in cryptography: 1. Someone proposes a ... | Hacker News ... ( http://bit.ly/1TbgFOg )

22:32:20 asciilifeform: '1. Someone proposes a scheme based on Hard Problem X. X looks strong, but the resulting scheme either is too slow or has gigantic keys. 2. Someone else comes along and proposes a related scheme based on Hard Problem Y which, having more structure, allows for either smaller keys or faster computation. 3. Later turns out this extra structure also helps the attacker.'

22:33:18 mircea_popescu: and yet we deeply wonder why would anyone fix a large key and block requirement!

22:33:33 mircea_popescu: stupidity of this caliber can't be naturally produced, has to be learned.

22:34:01 mircea_popescu: but herein we find the elixir of my tolerance of orcs that perhaps bedazzles you alf. this is it : they may be stupid, but at least they're not TRAINEDLY dumb.

22:34:23 asciilifeform: neither is the dirt under my feet.

22:34:25 asciilifeform: let's talk to it, too ?

22:34:40 asciilifeform: and i fully understand why mircea_popescu is fond of orcs.

22:35:06 asciilifeform: prolly same reason why i and many folks like tame animals more than most people.

22:35:19 asciilifeform: or even wild, man-eating animals

22:35:39 mircea_popescu: heh

22:36:44 asciilifeform: also i will note that orcs are, where typically found, trained-dumb in a number of easily identifiable ways.

22:36:48 asciilifeform: (e.g., allah-snackbar)

22:37:01 mircea_popescu: eh, if only.

22:37:19 *: mircea_popescu recalls how friendly arabs were once it was established he has whiskey and doesn't mind sharing.

22:38:01 asciilifeform: everybody's quite friendly 'in group of less than three'

22:38:04 asciilifeform: even chechen.

22:38:14 mircea_popescu: so i hear yeah

22:38:25 mircea_popescu: but this ran up to the dozen.

22:38:55 asciilifeform: must've been mega-whiskey

22:41:43 mircea_popescu: mubarak days. better times.

22:42:23 asciilifeform: mu fell off, now we only have barak.

22:42:57 mircea_popescu: heh

22:45:29 mircea_popescu: but in other news, i shall brb, for duty calls. ( http://49.media.tumblr.com/41d2478fe09e54b02e6239e54c59bb07/tumblr_nxpjm8l98j1qlne6uo1_500.gif duty is the one wearing white)

22:45:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q62JP8 )

22:48:08 asciilifeform: http://blog.cr.yp.to/20140213-ideal.html << nifty bernstein l0ltr0n

22:48:09 assbot: cr.yp.to: 2014.02.13: A subfield-logarithm attack against ideal lattices ... ( http://bit.ly/1TbifQj )

22:55:45 asciilifeform: https://web.archive.org/web/20160119035457/https://fail0verflow.com/blog/2014/plaidctf2014-crypto200-graphs.html

22:55:46 assbot: fail0verflow :: plaidCTF 2014 - graphs (crypto200) ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q63Jmg )

22:55:46 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: today from the mines. I'm setting up puppet which uses openssl

22:55:49 asciilifeform: ^ lulzy problem

22:55:55 thestringpuller: the thing ships with it's own libcrypto library

22:55:57 asciilifeform: and apparently the man died yesterday, and his site is gone.

22:56:05 thestringpuller: but apparently it doesn't know how to find the right .so to link

22:56:33 thestringpuller: so I get this error " EC_GROUP_new_curve_GF2m symbol not found at runtime link blah blah"

22:56:48 thestringpuller: so I run readelf on all the libcrypto***.so's

22:57:02 thestringpuller: the one that shipped with the product that uses it doesn't even have the symbol in it?!?!?

22:57:13 thestringpuller: like wtf are these people doing when the put together package management

22:57:38 thestringpuller: "we're gonna ship you a broken library. have fun!"

22:58:15 asciilifeform: wai wut

22:58:20 asciilifeform: why did this even ship with a binary ?

22:58:31 thestringpuller: exactly my question!!!1

22:58:49 thestringpuller: puppet really shit the bed on their open source project

22:59:01 thestringpuller: "Don't wanna deal with this bullshit? Buy puppet enterprise today!"

22:59:21 asciilifeform: i have nfi what is 'puppet.'

23:00:58 thestringpuller: a configuration management tool for devops

23:01:18 thestringpuller: removes itops out of the equation in lieu of developers slowly losing sanity to ruby

23:02:50 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu mega-l0ltr0n from ages gone by, http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NEWS3/MEMO.HTM#36292906.1151332@news.visi.com

23:02:54 assbot: The Value of Cryptanalysis ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tbjcb6 )

23:02:54 gribble: The operation succeeded.

23:07:07 mircea_popescu: wait, bernstein died ?!

23:08:03 asciilifeform: nonono

23:08:09 asciilifeform: this other bloke

23:08:12 asciilifeform: fail0verflow

23:08:43 asciilifeform: though it won't surprise me if bernstein dies of mystery 'accident'

23:08:59 asciilifeform: http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NEWS3/MEMO.HTM#70dpbv$gal$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com << l0ltr0nic

23:09:03 assbot: The Value of Cryptanalysis ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q64T17 )

23:09:26 mircea_popescu: ah ok

23:09:37 asciilifeform: 'What I don't

23:09:37 asciilifeform: like is the spying on Americans for political reasons that will

23:09:37 asciilifeform: someday make what the Soviet Union had look like a dream of a long

23:09:39 asciilifeform: lost freedom.'

23:09:48 asciilifeform: ^ '98

23:11:09 asciilifeform: massive lulzmine.

23:12:41 asciilifeform: e.g., http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/NEWS3/MEMO.HTM#3634a72a.2430860@news.io.com

23:12:44 assbot: The Value of Cryptanalysis ... ( http://bit.ly/1TbjUFg )

23:24:36 jurov: mod6: ben_vulpes got an email "bitcoin-foundation.info expires in 60 days"

23:24:43 jurov: should i renew it?

23:28:10 ben_vulpes: nah man dns a fuck

23:28:30 ben_vulpes: stop paying lizard hitler for entries in his global lookup table

23:36:48 jurov: lolk

23:53:03 mircea_popescu: " everything looks like a boolean satisfiability problem. This problem, also called SAT, is NP-complete, which means that every instance of any problem in NP can be efficiently reduced to a SAT instance. And, importantly, there are SAT solvers out there which are very efficient for many problems encountered in practice."

23:53:09 mircea_popescu: uh. i had no idea sat is solved now ?

23:53:40 mircea_popescu: oh he just gets lucky. ok.

23:55:52 mircea_popescu: hanbot 464 * 8824 * 1.54 * 1.25 = 7881596.8

23:56:30 mircea_popescu: 597 * 262 * 1.35 = 211158.9. 7670437.9 net

23:56:38 mircea_popescu: oops.

23:57:17 mircea_popescu: 1998-10-18 W T Shaw: "In Bruce's work, there are sinful omissions and comissions, but the subject is so large that this would always be a surity in some form. To judge his character, we will see if he mentions in the future any things he has previously ignored and have been pointed out directly to him." << no. as confirmed throughout and including 18 years later.