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Transcript for 09-04-2015, 1833 lines:

00:03:11 danielpbarron: Please note: Initial deposit amounts exceeding +30 bitcoin will qualify your membership for a 2nd level upgrade. << MPEx sets the standard

00:03:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22319 @ 0.00025219 = 5.6286 BTC [-] {2}

00:04:13 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: You want to write this one up?

00:07:16 danielpbarron: sure

00:07:56 mircea_popescu: 30 btc is best btc

00:09:29 mircea_popescu: similarly, spanked butt is best butt. http://33.media.tumblr.com/7882bb358d5116b7b174d97672357532/tumblr_nfllfsaep11sjegrpo1_400.gif

00:09:29 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6gbQu )

00:10:47 BingoBoingo: What about baseball butt? http://i.gifeye.com/13487.gif

00:10:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6gr21 )

00:11:12 mircea_popescu: basebutt is largest butt.

00:11:18 mircea_popescu: see, best, largest... first butt missing.

00:11:35 mircea_popescu: will 2nd lt 1st butt report for complety!

00:12:03 BingoBoingo: But she's stealling 3rd Butt.

00:12:14 mircea_popescu: hahaha

00:12:15 mircea_popescu: !b 8

00:12:18 assbot: Last 8 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1SBNZ7D.txt )

00:13:29 BingoBoingo: !up indiancandy1

00:13:41 indiancandy1: hi boys n girls

00:13:49 mircea_popescu: http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com/ uh dead ?

00:14:15 mircea_popescu: how goes indiancandy1

00:14:27 indiancandy1: im good

00:14:29 indiancandy1: in bed relaxing

00:14:32 indiancandy1: you

00:14:47 mircea_popescu: nothing much. digesting.

00:14:52 BingoBoingo: in chair, unlaxing

00:16:38 mircea_popescu: nge3IShb

00:16:47 indiancandy1: nge?

00:17:22 mircea_popescu: meh there goes this kbd

00:17:32 mircea_popescu: a hey, not so bad.

00:19:54 indiancandy1: who

00:19:57 indiancandy1: mp

00:20:00 indiancandy1: hows u bby

00:20:06 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

00:20:14 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 244.55, vol: 11594.32792055 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 243.326, vol: 7726.90295 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 244.91, vol: 39772.9444729 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 243.329788, vol: 128921.67480000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 249.45692, vol: 13.68792084 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 253.077009989, vol: 133.44500285 | Volume-weighted last average: 243.746195825

00:20:15 BingoBoingo: ;;more

00:20:15 gribble: http://www.arpc.afrc.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/267/Article/583614/polar-growl-strengthens-allied-interoperability-bomber-navigation-skills.aspx

00:20:31 BingoBoingo: O.o

00:22:36 BingoBoingo: !up _flow_

00:25:06 indiancandy1: hiiiiiiii

00:25:08 indiancandy1: talk

00:26:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45050 @ 0.00025061 = 11.29 BTC [-]

00:29:00 BingoBoingo: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/cb/b9/e6/cbb9e63c8ed86df314997771fe2114c0.jpg

00:29:01 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6j7wr )

00:31:59 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: any mention in any of these of the -actual reason- for the exercise ?

00:32:04 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it so happens that there is one

00:32:23 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I've no seen any reason other than "pissing contest"

00:32:33 asciilifeform: yes but no mention of the second pisser

00:32:50 asciilifeform: http://www.uralinform.ru/news/society/228787-rossiya-vybrosila-voennyi-desant-na-severnyi-polyus

00:32:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6jHdG )

00:32:58 asciilifeform: ^ not the most detailed piece but there are many

00:34:07 asciilifeform: ru parachutists land on a drifting ice sheet, 100km from the pole, in full gear; build camp with self-contained systems, mains power, heat, etc. at -50c.

00:34:26 asciilifeform: this sequence of events being a historic first, afaik.

00:35:10 BingoBoingo: Aha, Russians took over Krampus's village

00:36:00 asciilifeform: 50 tonnes of provisions dropped

00:39:12 *: asciilifeform discovers, to no surprise, that the film clips of this event have been deleted from youtube.

00:39:48 asciilifeform: i will add that they did this same exercise last year at exactly this time.

00:40:00 asciilifeform: http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201504060846-qsno.htm << film

00:40:01 assbot: Российский десант высадится на дрейфующую льдину у Северного полюса - Телеканал «Звезда» ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6kISS )

00:40:46 asciilifeform: or not.

00:40:57 asciilifeform: clip shows something entirely unrelated.

00:42:53 asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LJ9W95Meys << appears to be proper

00:42:55 assbot: Десант на Северный полюс. 8 апреля 2015 - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6l8J3 )

00:49:30 *: TomServo is the proud owner of 'adulterated' pogo.

00:49:50 TomServo: Now to figure out these u-bout and buildroot things.

00:49:55 TomServo: boot*

00:50:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80376 @ 0.00025024 = 20.1133 BTC [-] {4}

00:51:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00024978 = 4.4211 BTC [-] {2}

00:52:24 ben_vulpes: TomServo: have you accomplished netconsole yet?

00:53:36 *: asciilifeform just bought 10 more

00:54:57 ben_vulpes: bitcoinrpg -> control the network quest -> bitcoind quest (now apparently depends on buildroot quest, which depends on gentoo quest, so may as well pogoquest as well)

00:54:58 BingoBoingo: http://www.dailyegyptian.com/news/article_2bea4122-dc69-11e4-81a5-bb4948f90ef2.html << multi lol

00:54:59 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cie9cn )

00:55:00 ben_vulpes: man

00:55:12 ben_vulpes: i need a fucking quest tree to keep track of all this shit

00:56:03 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: at some point they will rediscover traditional eunuch-making.

00:56:40 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Like with executions I imagine they will try to put a medical veneer on it.

00:57:00 TomServo: ben_vulpes: sorry, had to reference danielpbarron's docs.. you're referring to enabling SSH access?

00:57:24 ben_vulpes: no, the part where pogo boots and then attaches to a nc instance running on your host machine

00:57:30 ben_vulpes: TomServo: ^^

00:58:18 TomServo: Negative... I enabled SSH and waited for my USB>TTY convertors to arrive

00:58:37 ben_vulpes: TomServo: oh, you've actually cracked the case and everything?

00:58:49 ben_vulpes: so intrepid

00:59:19 TomServo: heh, I guess? Seems like an awful way to learn soldering, I'll say that.

00:59:42 TomServo: I was surprised I got it working.

00:59:56 ben_vulpes: easy to do, hard to do well.

01:01:42 asciilifeform: everyone who has not yet done this, will quickly find that at least one pogo with serial port is necessary - if only for testing own build of uboot.

01:02:04 asciilifeform: a unit with defective 'uboot' can only be restored via serial port (xmodem)

01:02:31 asciilifeform: srsly it does not take a very long time to solder three wires.

01:02:45 asciilifeform: considerably less time than screwing with netcat.

01:02:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88200 @ 0.00024767 = 21.8445 BTC [-] {4}

01:03:19 asciilifeform: you will also be able to see kernel messages as it boots

01:03:40 asciilifeform: (i do not know of any simple means to 'netcat' these. they come out of ttyS0, as the gods intended.)

01:04:12 asciilifeform: you will also be able to log in to a unit that is not running sshd or telnetd.

01:05:08 asciilifeform: in short, save the headache and do it. someone here did not even own a soldering iron, iirc, and bought one for the occasion, and did not regret.

01:05:27 TomServo: http://i.imgur.com/otRbvlr.jpg < my excited photo after learning it worked.

01:05:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CigAff )

01:06:02 asciilifeform: wut

01:06:04 asciilifeform: aha

01:06:17 TomServo: huh?

01:06:25 asciilifeform: wasn't loading at first

01:07:21 asciilifeform: TomServo: you drilled the box, or what

01:07:46 TomServo: Couple snips of the plastic allowed me to poke the wires through.

01:08:09 asciilifeform: neato

01:08:10 TomServo: The ridges over the ventilation holes in the bottom.

01:08:26 asciilifeform: i barbarously screwed mine shut with the wires in.

01:08:42 asciilifeform: pinch doesn't make a difference at 115200 baud...

01:11:23 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu mega-liberasty-lol from obscure rat pit: http://catvalente.livejournal.com/690416.html

01:11:26 assbot: Rules for Anchorites - Holding the Hugos–and the English Language–Hostage for Fun and Profit ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6psYN )

01:11:26 gribble: The operation succeeded.

01:11:58 TomServo: asciilifeform: http://imgur.com/nz9De6B

01:11:59 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1y6pwHY )

01:12:19 asciilifeform: TomServo: very clean!

01:14:16 asciilifeform: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2015/04/08/five-charts-that-may-soon-be-illegal-in-tanzania << preview of usa

01:14:17 assbot: Five charts that may soon be illegal in Tanzania - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1CiiCMl )

01:16:19 BingoBoingo: "Shockingly, only 27 percent of doctors could correctly diagnosis malaria with anemia, and 29 percent could correctly diagnose diarrhea with severe dehydration" << WTF

01:21:22 ben_vulpes: <mats> http://i.imgur.com/O5rYZZS.gifv << wahaha

01:21:22 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1CikcOd )

01:21:39 ben_vulpes: cops are scawwy what with their failure to understand basic physics

01:21:56 asciilifeform: 'guardia civil' ?

01:22:21 *: ben_vulpes shrugs

01:22:32 ben_vulpes: third world nomenclature isn't really my thing.

01:22:44 asciilifeform: Tienen, por eso no lloran,

01:22:44 asciilifeform: de plomo las calaveras.

01:22:44 asciilifeform: Con el alma de charol

01:22:44 asciilifeform: vienen por la carretera... (g. garcia lorca)

01:22:56 BingoBoingo: lol

01:23:12 decimation: asciilifeform: actually I would posit that the us mostly has a 'Gendarmerie'

01:23:18 decimation: state police

01:23:26 decimation: and federales

01:23:47 BingoBoingo: Moar skulls!!!

01:23:47 ben_vulpes: decimation: don't cities operate their own police force?

01:23:59 asciilifeform: the local police handle most of the tedious everyday life

01:24:27 ben_vulpes: maybe this socialist utopia's the last holdout. federales have been leaning hard on them for cracking a few too many crackpot brainpans, and beating up on brown folks.

01:24:51 BingoBoingo: In my understanding outside of very large cities, grants tend to push local police toward the most tedious tasks

01:25:29 BingoBoingo: "Seatbelt laws"

01:25:49 decimation: after all it's not like the fbi can't come up with an excuse to arrest you if they wish

01:26:20 ben_vulpes: i accidentally a stop sign at oh 30 mph on my bike the other day, right in front of a copper.

01:26:25 decimation: re: wwiii > http://www.spacewar.com/reports/US_aerospace_command_moving_comms_gear_back_to_bunker_999.html < hilarity

01:26:26 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CildG5 )

01:26:58 ben_vulpes: thirty seconds later, "you know, i'm not the sort of guy to insist on a full foot-down stop from bikers at every stop sign. but DUDE! you came through that intersection at easily over 20 mph!"

01:27:07 *: ben_vulpes dodges entropy again

01:27:15 asciilifeform: decimation: l0l! i somehow missed that the mountain had been mothballed

01:27:16 decimation: usg paid $bil to hollow out mountain, then paid $$ to modernize it after 2001, then decided it was 'too small' in 2006 (apparently nukes weren't a concern anymore) and now has suddenly seen wisdom in moving back into the bunker

01:27:27 asciilifeform: it is an iconic landmark of usa

01:27:39 asciilifeform: probably more recognizable, among a certain public, than the white house.

01:28:02 asciilifeform: setting for, e.g., the film 'war games'

01:28:05 decimation: asciilifeform: you can imagine how it would cramp the style of a high ranking usg 'staffer' to report for duty inside a hole

01:29:17 decimation: it's amazing how the interests of the 'public at large' (even 'usg at large') can be usurped by some bureaucrat who likes a nice window office

01:29:17 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

01:29:33 *: BingoBoingo wonders what is being done with Yucca mountain since it hasn't been filled with rads

01:29:59 asciilifeform: decimation: cixi!

01:30:03 decimation: aye

01:30:31 *: asciilifeform proposes that this class of organism be from here on referred to as 'cixies' - pronounced like 'pixies'

01:30:46 decimation: but here's the thing: apparently even the nuclear defense/attack commanders have been 'cixi-ized'

01:31:13 asciilifeform: long ago.

01:31:50 decimation: in the late 50's and 60's the nuclear force was largely run by actual people, who had agendas that made sense

01:32:19 decimation: there are plenty of folks who are willing to pose with 'a hand on the captain's wheel'

01:32:43 asciilifeform: decimation: not especially many bureaucrats ever believed that the rockets would fly. the purpose of investments like this was to bankrupt ussr, by forcing response in kind

01:32:55 asciilifeform: when this was accomplished - there was no further investment

01:33:01 decimation: some of them, yes.

01:33:36 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform, decimation: 'cixi' << a reference to the dowager empress?

01:33:41 asciilifeform: aha

01:33:44 asciilifeform: !s cixi

01:33:44 assbot: 4 results for 'cixi' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cixi

01:34:15 asciilifeform: the only reason she is remembered is for having banned railroad, because locomotive was 'too loud.'

01:36:02 ben_vulpes: and the analogue here is "holes are unpleasant"?

01:39:53 BingoBoingo: http://www.local10.com/news/bobcat-catches-shark-on-florida-beach/32237440 << Not a bobcat.

01:39:54 assbot: Bobcat catches shark on Florida beach | News - Home ... ( http://bit.ly/1CioaXd )

01:40:03 BingoBoingo: !up jitenm1

01:43:51 decimation: lol http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2015/04/08/reddit-ceo-ellen-pao-bans-salary-negotiations-to-equalize-pay/ "“Men negotiate harder than women do and sometimes women get penalized when they do negotiate,” she said. “So as part of our recruiting process we don’t negotiate with candidates.

01:43:54 assbot: Reddit CEO Ellen Pao Bans Salary Negotiations To Equalize Pay For Men, Women « CBS San Francisco ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cipbyi )

01:44:43 decimation: of course reddit doesn't even need to pay employees, what with having a vast reservoir of people who would gladly pay to work there

01:44:54 ben_vulpes: entirely transparent project to reduce hiring costs

01:46:36 mircea_popescu: !up jitenm1

01:58:24 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-10-2014#888036 << history

01:58:24 assbot: Logged on 22-10-2014 15:45:04; othernubs`: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/20_a-summary-of-changes-to-bitcoin-since-0321.html#fnr.20 << thanks for this write up, this would def. need to be patched in. <<< agreed, great writeup, altho evidence seems to point to 0.6.3 being the right choice

01:58:39 ben_vulpes: jesus i will never live that squeeze thing down

02:00:00 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes best quest!

02:00:50 ben_vulpes: that was *october*

02:00:56 ben_vulpes: feels like a lifetime!

02:04:07 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-10-2014#888209 << aaaah cute mats still had his keys back then

02:04:07 assbot: Logged on 22-10-2014 17:16:44; mats_cd03: this sounds like something i want to be involved in

02:04:27 danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, http://danielpbarron.com/qntra.asc.txt

02:04:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DL3KMl )

02:05:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36400 @ 0.00026491 = 9.6427 BTC [+] {2}

02:06:08 mircea_popescu: But in the spirit of thumbing one?s nose at government overreach, here?s a sampling of unofficial, but highly reputable statistics about Tanzania that might explain what?s going on.

02:06:09 mircea_popescu: 1. Only a third of children can read in English

02:06:09 mircea_popescu: Like many other African countries, Tanzania has made huge strides in expanding basic services like health and education. The primary school enrollment rate, for instance, is officially at 94%. But ?unofficial? statistics suggest the quality of those services is often quite poor.

02:06:17 mircea_popescu: hey look at that. tanzanian kids read about as well as us kids.

02:06:28 mircea_popescu: except, of course, english is about as relevant to tanzania as korean to the us.

02:06:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22300 @ 0.00026839 = 5.9851 BTC [+]

02:10:53 ben_vulpes: trinque: i need those legacy deeds in deedbot.

02:11:32 mircea_popescu: decimation yea, i'm sure THAT's why they don't negotiate.

02:11:51 mircea_popescu: not because economy's dead and whoever has "investors" to connect them to the printing teat can simply dictate terms.

02:12:23 mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> entirely transparent project to reduce hiring costs << moar like, entirely transparent admission that "well, mp said he's killing us, we're as good as dead, might as well give up"

02:13:27 ben_vulpes: boss your penchant for recasting everything as a result of your own actions is endlessly amusing

02:14:10 trinque: ben_vulpes: alright, I'll put 'em in

02:14:23 ben_vulpes: apropos of nothing, what kind of retarded programming situation *even permits* for the bitcoin reward overflow bug in the first place?!

02:14:48 ben_vulpes: trinque: thanks man. there's a lot of rebel foundation stuff in there i need published again.

02:14:50 asciilifeform: ilkka kokkarinen, before being forced to choose between eating and blogging (tenure does not exist in canada?) had an interesting piece on the 'stages of progressivism'

02:15:05 trinque: ben_vulpes: no problemo; doin it now

02:15:09 asciilifeform: (1) was 'unthinkable' and (n) - i forget what n equaled - 'mandatory'

02:15:30 mircea_popescu: 3. The group is of the opinion that their work was being overlooked because of their politics, and that the Hugo ballots and winners of the last several years were only awarded due to leftist politics and the racial/sexual/gender identities of their authors, not quality. The tenor of the call to arms was explicitly and often resoundingly political??this is your chance to hurt SJWs.? If you don?t know what an SJ

02:15:30 mircea_popescu: W is, I hope you?re enjoying your new computer. It stands for Social Justice Warrior, which to a normal person sounds like someone who fights for justice and cares about all human beings, and to conservatives like the devil himself. The implication that they then must support injustice seems to be lost.

02:15:30 ben_vulpes: trinque: thanks bae

02:15:31 mircea_popescu: bwahaha.

02:15:33 asciilifeform: the 'no negotiation' thing left stage-1 long ago, and is worming its way towards n

02:15:37 mircea_popescu: ah that's some top kek lj drama.

02:15:55 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for extra plus lulz: i met this person in real life once.

02:16:13 mircea_popescu: really, opposing "social justice" implies one supports... injustice ? how about the obvious "social-anything is stupid, for many reasons we won't rehash, and never has anything to do with the vanilla version" ?

02:16:17 mircea_popescu: i guess THATs lost.

02:16:23 mircea_popescu: fat tranny ?

02:16:41 mircea_popescu: "4. None of this is strictly speaking against the rules. It?s unethical. It?s almost laughably petty and mean-spirited."

02:16:43 asciilifeform: female as far as i could determine

02:17:06 mircea_popescu: o wait. bitching at excellent scientists because they didn't say stupid-thing-x-about-our-aggenda is not laughably petty and outright idiotic.

02:17:36 mircea_popescu: social-thinking ftw.

02:17:53 asciilifeform: so the quick version is, english language science fiction -mostly- died long ago

02:17:59 mircea_popescu: ".And to an author of integrity, it?s a pointless act of bullying, because if you don?t compete against the best, an award is meaningless."

02:18:00 asciilifeform: when the civilization that it was an ornament on, had died

02:18:11 mircea_popescu: right. and brokeback mountain isn't an endless piece of meaningless cheese. because polarities.

02:18:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform srsly, it never really existed.

02:18:39 asciilifeform: the remaining authors are largely 'wannebees' who wank themselves to sleep every night wishing for a 'minimum wage' income from their drivel;

02:19:04 asciilifeform: a select few - who were able to con someone into printing, and a somewhat larger set of others (friends, family, sex partners) into buying,

02:19:17 asciilifeform: get to earn approx. what a clerk earns, while doing this.

02:19:34 nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> right. and brokeback mountain isn't an endless piece of meaningless cheese. because polarities. <<< in fairness, the book was under 100 pages

02:19:36 ben_vulpes: here's to the minimum wage and full employment!

02:19:42 nubbins`: ~65 iirc

02:19:48 mircea_popescu: The ballot looks ridiculous. John C. Wright has three nominations in the novella category and six overall, a record. The vast majority of the works are published by Castalia House, a Finnish micropublisher barely a year old and owned, I?m sure coincidentally, by Vox Day. Wisdom From My Internet, nominated in the Best Related Work category, is neither science fiction, nor, strictly speaking, a book, (Edit: many things

02:19:48 mircea_popescu: not books have been nominated in the category, let?s say it?s not an original work) but a collection of right-wing chain emails and one liners?which, among other works

02:19:51 ben_vulpes: may it drain the usg's coffers and drive her to hitherto unprecedented printing sprees.

02:20:06 mircea_popescu: nubbins` ^ exactly like that, but in the other stupid colors.

02:20:27 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you might be thinking of academics. the folks i was speaking of, don't get grantola.

02:20:40 asciilifeform: they work largely like 'amway' salesmen once did

02:20:47 nubbins`: <+ben_vulpes> boss your penchant for recasting everything as a result of your own actions is endlessly amusing <<< i came for the btc, stayed for the lels

02:20:58 asciilifeform: browbeating friends, family, colleagues, fucktoys - into 'pleeese buy!'

02:21:19 ben_vulpes: http://pussydestroyer.shithouse.tv/

02:21:20 assbot: pussydestroyer ... ( http://bit.ly/1anEIFH )

02:21:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally - amway never took off in romania.

02:21:40 mircea_popescu: reason ? unattached youngish female begging people is usually offered a junior mistress arrangement.

02:21:44 nubbins`: <+asciilifeform> (tenure does not exist in canada?) <<< canada's like a miniature version of usa set back a few years.

02:21:52 decimation: I bet cultures that are largely 'peer to peer' are immune to 'multi-level marketing'

02:22:01 mircea_popescu: i suppose one needs the particular idiocies of the us for the particular forms of the us idiocy to manifest.

02:22:03 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: http://qntra.net/2015/04/coinbase-outgoing-email-hacked/

02:22:04 assbot: Coinbase Outgoing Email Hacked | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1anEPkz )

02:22:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 147950 @ 0.0002579 = 38.1563 BTC [-] {2}

02:22:29 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didn't ro have its own national 'mmm' though ?

02:22:31 asciilifeform: what was it

02:22:32 asciilifeform: 'caritas' ?

02:23:05 mircea_popescu: <nubbins`> <+ben_vulpes> boss your penchant for recasting everything as a result of your own actions is endlessly amusing <<< i came for the btc, stayed for the lels << hey, if obama can save the economy...

02:23:10 decimation: I was thinking in the sense that 'why should I buy from your dumbass amway when I already have a guy for that'

02:23:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yup.

02:23:24 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: you savvy "food stamps"?

02:23:36 mircea_popescu: decimation no, it's more like "why would a pretty girl like you go do this whorish stupid thing ?"

02:23:41 decimation: heh

02:23:51 decimation: in the us most of these schemes are 'sold

02:23:51 mircea_popescu: "do a proper whorish thing instead."

02:23:57 decimation: by old women

02:24:13 mircea_popescu: mostly tried with "students" in .ro

02:24:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: some of these people may or may not get various pensions, handouts, etc. mostly - not.

02:24:25 mircea_popescu: ie, the 17-29 demographic

02:25:17 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in the case of the woman linked earlier, my understanding is that she is largely funded by husband - a swell chap, from ru, of approximately my age, whom i also met once.

02:25:32 ben_vulpes: wai wut woman?

02:25:45 ben_vulpes: surely i'm not that drunk yet i thought we were talking of ilka

02:25:48 trinque: punkman: hey dude, what's the encoding of the old deeds table's deed field?

02:25:50 mircea_popescu: shame on him for not beating hr.

02:25:51 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the one who wrote the 'hugo awards' thing

02:26:04 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ilkka is/was a finnish chap

02:26:11 trinque: punkman: it's a blob with dunno what inside

02:26:13 nubbins`: i'm making breakfast cereal from scratch :o

02:26:19 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i was speaking of c. valente

02:26:22 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: that is what i thought!

02:26:46 asciilifeform: 1LLkNuQQ2GkS5DmQzsTxCmErUH8ew6dnDi from qntra << nothing but dust in there

02:26:47 mircea_popescu: nubbins` what did you scratch ?

02:26:51 asciilifeform: poor sc4mz0rz

02:27:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform was exactly 0 when first reported here.

02:27:07 nubbins`: mircea_popescu special sour yeast starter 8)

02:27:15 mircea_popescu: lol k

02:27:22 asciilifeform: i wonder how long until sp4mz0rz start simply posting addrs in commentspam

02:27:26 nubbins`: "have a scratch, then bake it; natch"

02:27:33 asciilifeform: to pick up the dust from idiots at noblis

02:28:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10552 @ 0.000251 = 2.6486 BTC [-]

02:28:31 nubbins`: srs tho, been making cereal for about a month now. top yum

02:28:37 ben_vulpes: i already have my own poet, can't be arsed with more.

02:28:41 nubbins`: i may never buy honey shreddies again

02:29:21 nubbins`: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8Fi46BFAF0

02:29:23 assbot: Nautical Disaster - Day for Night - The Tragically Hip - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1anGjvl )

02:29:35 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://36.media.tumblr.com/3c458c5e5fd92a27ce76e51ed5c07a87/tumblr_nf9cygEhX31qetydwo6_1280.jpg

02:29:36 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1anGnLv )

02:29:59 ben_vulpes: hey i did a shoot like that once!

02:30:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plot: poor gurl starved long enough, time to put out of misery

02:30:29 ben_vulpes: heh

02:30:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kinda bare...

02:32:13 ben_vulpes: failed to satisfy master while starving, time...

02:32:28 trinque: that prominent mons scared my weechat

02:33:25 ben_vulpes: trinque: "prominent mons" << hyu

02:33:32 asciilifeform: also terrible lack of even attempt at realism

02:33:41 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1011340.msg11023214#msg11023214

02:33:42 assbot: [2015-04-03] The 5,000Btc hidden treasure, and the key to finding it. ... ( http://bit.ly/1anHdYE )

02:33:44 nubbins`: top kek

02:33:56 asciilifeform: pistolero one-handed, victim - ignores wide open space in front of cocked hammer

02:37:47 nubbins`: oh man.

02:37:49 nubbins`: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/31utl3/could_we_make_a_silk_road_for_medicine_where/

02:37:54 assbot: Could we make a "silk road for medicine", where users can buy not only medicine, but medical advice? Tipping for feedback. : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1anI1ga )

02:38:12 nubbins`: sorry, i know all i'm doing is pasting links today

02:38:15 nubbins`: but the lels, oh jesus

02:38:46 nubbins`: a silk road for "medicine"

02:38:50 nubbins`: where USERS

02:38:58 nubbins`: can BUY. MEDICAL ADVICE.

02:38:58 asciilifeform: nubbins`: laugh, but it is only funny because these folks have not invented wot yet.

02:39:26 nubbins`: the guy is proposing to merge the silk road with yahoo! answers

02:39:34 *: nubbins` pours drink, watches

02:39:46 asciilifeform: they are discussing how to build tv set without having discovered electricity as of yet.

02:40:09 nubbins`: "Hi, I'm an attorney. I want to describe what I consider to be inherent problems with this."

02:40:35 danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, did you intend to move the first footnote? I meant for it to go with the sentence about where Coinbase's response came from.

02:41:21 trinque: nubbins`: that black chick that was doing the cement ass injections would be great for the site

02:41:44 nubbins`: i can only imagine the horrors behind that statement. agreed.

02:41:57 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: I did. Not a fan of footnotes above the read more link, looks confusing on the front page.

02:42:11 trinque: http://gawker.com/5861135/cement-and-glue-butt-injection-doctor-has-unbelievable-curves << sorry for gawker, pic worth it

02:42:12 assbot: Cement-and-Glue Butt Injection 'Doctor' Has Unbelievable Curves ... ( http://bit.ly/1anINKa )

02:42:49 asciilifeform: l0l, 'fix a flat' !

02:43:07 trinque: asciilifeform: with a name like that how could you not inject into your arse?

02:43:10 danielpbarron: aight i'll keep that in mind for future articles

02:43:59 asciilifeform: (for non-u.s. folks - a product consisting of an aerosol tin with a hose and a pull ring. hose attaches to flat tire, pull ring, contents - a sort of rubbery foam - released into tire in lieu of air)

02:44:34 asciilifeform: i and everybody else have it in my car, in the box in the back where the fire extinguisher etc. is kept

02:45:02 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i and everybody else have it in my car, in the box in the back where the fire extinguisher etc. is kept << Wait your fire extinguisher isn't under the seat?

02:45:22 ben_vulpes: yeah that's a demerit

02:45:39 ben_vulpes: trinque: gawker and friends are blocked at /etc/hosts on babetops

02:45:40 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (for non-u.s. folks - a product consisting of an aerosol tin with a hose and a pull ring. hose attaches to flat tire, pull ring, contents - a sort of rubbery foam - released into tire in lieu of air) << Also pretty much guarentees you need a new wheel after use

02:45:41 trinque: later... "BingoBoingo | bitch my whole car is a fire extinguisher"

02:45:49 BingoBoingo: trinque: Not yet.

02:45:52 trinque: BingoBoingo: good work

02:45:56 trinque: * ben_vulpes ^

02:46:06 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it's the traditional small extinquisher, meant for use on motor, not on self or passengers

02:46:20 decimation: BingoBoingo: yeah but the point is to inflate wheel enough to make it to tire vendor

02:46:31 asciilifeform: i am now wondering if you folks have halon or what in there.

02:47:13 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Amall dry powder in passenger compartment, CO2 in trunk except summers

02:47:58 BingoBoingo: decimation: That's what undersized spare in trunk is for

02:48:19 BingoBoingo: *Small

02:48:38 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the point is to avoid cranking the jack in the cold rain, etc.

02:48:59 asciilifeform: mud on your suit

02:49:25 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: So you don't have a "dining fly" style tarp rig in your trunk?

02:49:27 trinque: also if you're a tranny it makes for great womanly curves

02:49:36 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and how on earth would it nuke your wheel

02:49:42 asciilifeform: tire - yes

02:50:38 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The fix a flat adheres to the wheel's metal. Also tends to deploy unevenly. wheels in the best case need scraped after use, in worst case become malformed

02:51:39 decimation: only after driving on them for awhile

02:51:52 nubbins`: "Update: Some of you have suggested that Morris might have body dysmorphic disorder. If that's the case, we hope she finds a professional who can guide her away from excessive plastic surgeries and toward self-acceptance."

02:51:56 nubbins`: IF THAT'S THE CASE

02:52:04 nubbins`: "sorry, we didn't realize this obvious mental illness had a name"

02:52:09 *: asciilifeform used this type of product many times, had tires repaired, never noticed this effect - at one point even drove for entire year on such a tire.

02:52:20 BingoBoingo: decimation: "a while" is not a very precise measurement

02:52:54 decimation: between 100 and 1000 miles

02:53:03 decimation: maybe even longer

02:53:13 asciilifeform: nubbins`: iirc the 'state of the art' shrink practice is not 'self-acceptance' but prescription of mutilations

02:53:20 asciilifeform: e.g. amputation fetishist gets amputation, etc.

02:53:36 *: BingoBoingo always been sold on not using fix a flat without first person experience.

02:54:09 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it has obvious caveats, such as being violently explosive

02:54:20 *: BingoBoingo also generally suspicious of build quality of vehicle parts

02:54:28 mircea_popescu: nubbins` for my curiosity, when are you gonna get bored with it ?

02:54:35 decimation: it's all shit that falls apart

02:55:13 nubbins`: <+asciilifeform> e.g. amputation fetishist gets amputation, etc. <<< met a girl once who'd self-amputated her fingertip, doctors didn't think too much of it

02:55:26 asciilifeform: nubbins`: yakuza ?

02:55:26 trinque: o.0

02:55:49 nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> nubbins` for my curiosity, when are you gonna get bored with it ? <<< now-ish

02:56:00 nubbins`: asciilifeform naw pin-up girl

02:56:07 mircea_popescu: o.O

02:56:14 mircea_popescu: who wants an ex carpenter pin-up

02:56:16 asciilifeform: nubbins`: do tell ?

02:56:23 nubbins`: http://twwly.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/pupsglam2.jpg

02:56:24 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1anLviK )

02:56:36 asciilifeform: i assume 'self-amputated' means something other than machine-shop

02:56:58 decimation: m'

02:56:58 nubbins`: apparently chisels are popular

02:57:09 trinque: they'll make a "subculture" out of anything

02:57:12 nubbins`: "popular", listen to me

02:57:15 mircea_popescu: <nubbins`> the guy is proposing to merge the silk road with yahoo! answers << well, they already implemented "yahoo finance boards" as "bitcoin finance"

02:57:22 nubbins`: ha

02:57:24 trinque: kitten stomping, dick hammering, you name it

02:57:32 trinque: what will the kids think of next

02:57:41 nubbins`: trinque what's wrong with dick hammering?

02:57:42 decimation: I don't get how one gets from "want to cut" to "imma cut my fukin' fingertip off'

02:57:45 nubbins`: grow up and live a little

02:58:02 asciilifeform: <trinque> what will the kids think of next << here's to hoping that it's dueling they'll think of.

02:58:25 nubbins`: i actually read a handful of stories from self-amputees over the years

02:58:29 nubbins`: one guy took off a hand

02:58:31 mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> trinque: gawker and friends are blocked at /etc/hosts on babetops << what sort of an abusive relationsheep is this!

02:58:33 asciilifeform: or even the proverbial 'ru. roulette with automatic'

02:58:57 asciilifeform: wai wat is a 'babetop' ?

02:59:09 trinque: asciilifeform: nah dueling has no victim

02:59:30 trinque: nubbins`: seems like incremental suicide

03:00:00 decimation: maybe if my hand is dead that's like suicide?

03:00:01 nubbins`: trinque waking up every day is incremental suicide

03:00:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i imagine the system his wife is using

03:00:06 trinque: nubbins`: bah

03:00:10 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> wai wat is a 'babetop' ? << Tits???

03:00:20 trinque: not like I've never felt pain, but I don't see the point in losing parts

03:00:29 nubbins`: http://news.bme.com/2008/03/11/de-fingered-finger-amputation-interviews-in-bmenews-publishers-ring/

03:00:31 assbot: De-Fingered: Finger Amputation Interviews in BME/News [Publisher's Ring] | BME: Tattoo, Piercing and Body Modification News ... ( http://bit.ly/1anMnE6 )

03:00:33 ben_vulpes: specially not the moneymaking parts

03:00:42 nubbins`: http://news.bme.com/2007/08/13/diy-finger-amputation/

03:00:44 assbot: DIY Finger Amputation | BME: Tattoo, Piercing and Body Modification News ... ( http://bit.ly/1anMqQ7 )

03:00:44 asciilifeform: nubbins`: iirc from shrink literature, proper ampuphetishists grow 'alienated' from their hand/foot/cock, coming to believe that it was a foreign object sewn on to them by martian abductors or somesuch.

03:00:45 nubbins`: these are obviously NSFW

03:00:52 nubbins`: http://news.bme.com/2012/10/15/memorial-amputation/

03:00:54 assbot: Memorial Amputation | BME: Tattoo, Piercing and Body Modification News ... ( http://bit.ly/1anMuj4 )

03:00:54 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you know how it is when they come to you asking for the right decisions to be made.

03:01:03 nubbins`: http://news.bme.com/2011/08/01/frozen-extremes/

03:01:05 assbot: Frozen extremes | BME: Tattoo, Piercing and Body Modification News ... ( http://bit.ly/1anMtvm )

03:01:07 nubbins`: ^ whole foot

03:01:14 trinque: seems like humans will a) accept any category they've heard about a certain number of times and b) compete with each other as examples of that category

03:01:21 asciilifeform: 'frozen extremes' << will guess, he used nitrogen ?

03:01:24 asciilifeform: and hammer

03:01:34 decimation: sure why not make a subreddit where sick fucks can egg each other on

03:01:34 nubbins`: dry ice

03:01:35 nubbins`: and time

03:01:46 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i do, but it's nothing liek that.

03:01:56 asciilifeform: nubbins`: sounds gangrenous

03:02:02 decimation: maybe a subreddit discussing why "i don't negotiate because reasons"

03:02:06 mircea_popescu: no further than tonight, girl got sent to bed early because well, bought eggs at carefour.

03:02:10 mircea_popescu: who the fuck does that ?!

03:02:18 nubbins`: asciilifeform he couldn't saw it off himself, so he froze it with dry ice and went to the hospital

03:02:23 nubbins`: where they kindly removed it for him

03:02:28 mircea_popescu: but the idea isn't to make stupid shit impossible. just punishable.

03:02:29 asciilifeform: nubbins`: aha gulag-style

03:02:35 ben_vulpes: hm

03:02:45 asciilifeform: (prisoners at one point would mutilate own hands, feet, to be excused from work for a spell)

03:02:55 nubbins`: a!

03:02:59 ben_vulpes: (the correct procurement point being avicar, clearly)

03:03:02 asciilifeform: in wartime this was an instant capital offense

03:03:05 asciilifeform: but in peacetime - no

03:03:08 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes nah, grocer.

03:03:10 decimation: yeah, but then you gotta go back to mining uranium without hand

03:03:23 ben_vulpes: what was she doing at carefour anyways?

03:03:27 asciilifeform: decimation: if lacking both hands - you'd become a human 'soil compactor'

03:03:32 decimation: lol

03:03:35 asciilifeform: missing feet - left to starve

03:03:44 decimation: why not eaten by others?

03:03:55 asciilifeform: i did not say whether eaten.

03:03:57 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: hey avicar had great eggs

03:04:00 nubbins`: http://news.bme.com/2010/03/24/interview-with-james-keen-a-young-heavily-modified-eunuch/

03:04:02 assbot: Interview with James Keen; a young, heavily modified, eunuch. | BME: Tattoo, Piercing and Body Modification News ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbfxYa )

03:04:06 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes prolly looking for gawker magazine, fuck if i know.

03:04:12 mircea_popescu: i never used it.

03:04:17 nubbins`: ^ i actually watched this guy go from a vanilla fat kid into what you see in the first picture

03:04:20 decimation: if you feel like hacking your foot off, can I eat it?

03:04:22 nubbins`: over the course of maybe 2-3 years

03:04:39 asciilifeform: decimation: as features in roal dahl's story with the bums

03:04:45 asciilifeform: or in the film 'snow piercer'

03:04:52 asciilifeform: or 1000 other works of art

03:04:59 trinque: cannot comprehend a person who cuts off his own balls

03:05:07 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: gawker magazine << hawww

03:05:10 trinque: other than it must be a few notches below suicide

03:05:12 asciilifeform: !s a pig like this

03:05:13 assbot: 1 results for 'a pig like this' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=a+pig+like+this

03:05:15 trinque: genetic suicide or something

03:05:37 ben_vulpes: and now there are three, asciilifeform

03:05:40 ben_vulpes: this is how you get ants.

03:05:41 trinque: "but dude... you are... hmmm.. *you*."

03:05:43 ben_vulpes: do you want ants?

03:05:52 decimation: ". I remember as my second testicle was being clipped from the body, it was an expierence I won’t forget! The feeling of YES it is finally done! I remember it all like yesterday. Months after, and I’m talking 3-4 months of not taking testosterone shots or anything, I started getting hot flashes."

03:06:11 nubbins`: http://news.bme.com/2011/01/10/just-the-tip/

03:06:12 assbot: Just the tip | BME: Tattoo, Piercing and Body Modification News ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbg4JR )

03:06:15 nubbins`: it's mostly fingertips

03:06:15 asciilifeform: http://www.funnypart.com/funny/pig.shtml

03:06:17 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbg6RY )

03:06:25 nubbins`: very rare to go bigger

03:06:40 ben_vulpes: disappoiting.

03:06:46 ben_vulpes: i was hoping for cocklets.

03:06:51 nubbins`: inorite

03:06:51 trinque: runaway grooming impulse?

03:06:53 nubbins`: plenty of that too

03:06:56 mircea_popescu: i'd really like to get with the program here and think "hey, more power to em", but the vast majority of the self improvers are just deranged.

03:07:03 nubbins`: mircea_popescu has it

03:07:18 ben_vulpes: i actually *let my piercings close up*

03:07:27 decimation: ^ which is why they need to be put back to mining U instead of letting them wollow in 'tardation

03:07:39 trinque: ben_vulpes: yeah I had pierced ears

03:07:43 bitstein: BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: http://qntra.net/2015/04/coinbase-outgoing-email-hacked/ << Pierre_Rochard and I have been trying to tell Coinbase they should be using PGP for a while now. https://community.coinbase.com/t/pgp-signed-encrypted-e-mails/470 Adrian from Coinbase (presumably the same one as linked to in the article) said: "Do you think that simply signing messages sent from Coinbase with PGP would add any additional security over

03:07:44 assbot: Coinbase Outgoing Email Hacked | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbgsI2 )

03:07:46 assbot: PGP Signed / Encrypted E-mails - Coinbase Community ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbgtvH )

03:07:46 mircea_popescu: decimation i dun believe anyone's stupidity is anyone else's responsibility.

03:07:46 ben_vulpes: but i'm probably fully in the deranged category

03:07:46 bitstein: DKIM?" So that worked out well for them.

03:07:55 ben_vulpes: trinque: i had a subcutaneous piercing across the back of my neck

03:07:56 asciilifeform: there is something to the 'mortido' hypothesis

03:07:58 *: ben_vulpes waggles his cock

03:08:01 trinque: damn son

03:08:07 nubbins`: that said, there are plenty of people who cut off a fingertip, tattoo their face, cut their nuts off, w/e... and then just go on to lead a normal, happy life

03:08:08 decimation: I guess as long as they are hacking their own feet off and not mine

03:08:08 asciilifeform: that pain, death, mutilation are micronutrients

03:08:13 nubbins`: they're in the clear minority, sure

03:08:19 nubbins`: but they're there

03:08:25 mircea_popescu: bitstein the thing with idiots is that they will continue to think they know better indefinitely.

03:08:26 ben_vulpes: trinque: i'll show you the vampire bite sometime

03:08:40 mircea_popescu: hopefully they run out of money and then they vcan go on thinking they knew better with the winklevii and the rest of the dumbcrowd.

03:08:42 asciilifeform: folks kept as 'axenic mice' tend to go off the rollers in ways like this.

03:08:52 nubbins`: <+ben_vulpes> trinque: i had a subcutaneous piercing across the back of my neck << hah no wai

03:09:08 ben_vulpes: nubbins`: boss you don't even know

03:09:13 nubbins`: i had the frenulum under my tongue pierced

03:09:16 ben_vulpes: i'm just out of readies right now

03:09:18 nubbins`: heh

03:09:21 bitstein: mircea_popescu: I don't think we ever expected them to actually implement it. We just enjoy publicly shaming wallet inspectors.

03:09:34 mircea_popescu: nubbins` "leading normal happy life" is not the gold standard.

03:09:35 ben_vulpes: bitstein: y'all reconcile over the megablocks yet?

03:09:51 nubbins`: mircea_popescu for someone who has to cut off a finger to achieve it... it probably is

03:09:57 trinque: I'm still staring at this guy's severed finger

03:10:05 mircea_popescu: nubbins` it doesn't mean anything, for one.

03:10:06 decimation: nubbins`: when my baby boy was born the doctor said "his frenulum is really long, you want me to snip it"?

03:10:16 ben_vulpes: nubbins`: if you need "a thing" to achieve it, you'll soon want another "thing"

03:10:23 ben_vulpes: insatiability of man etc

03:10:36 danielpbarron: i wasn't suggesting coinbase gpg sign all outgoing email, as such a thing would be pointless if automated, and impossible if not

03:10:39 decimation: all human happiness is relative

03:10:41 mircea_popescu: moreover, people who think they achieved hapiness are the golden standard of deranged.

03:10:42 nubbins`: ben_vulpes if you need to cum to relax, you'll soon want to cum again

03:10:49 trinque: lol

03:10:58 decimation: a turd sandwich sounds delicious to someone about the starve to death

03:11:03 nubbins`: decimation didja snip it?

03:11:13 asciilifeform: wait till you hear about eating. not only do you need to do it again soon, but all that money - turned to shit!

03:11:20 nubbins`: ^

03:11:21 decimation: nubbins`: no, and he did just fine. supposedly it would 'prevent nursing'

03:11:29 mircea_popescu: really bad example. eating is pleasurable.

03:11:38 nubbins`: decimation if it ends up a problem down the road, people have it done as adults all the time

03:11:39 BingoBoingo: bitspill: DKIM used to be a popular spamzor turd at first, guarenteed to hit yahoo accounts

03:11:56 nubbins`: mircea_popescu you don't think cutting the fingertips off is pleasurable for these people?

03:12:04 mircea_popescu: i know it can't be.

03:12:06 bitstein: ben_vulpes: I've been busy thinking about other things. I have some articles to review, though, that touch the subject. So we'll see if anyone comes to any new conclusions.

03:12:16 nubbins`: pleasure centers are funny things

03:12:26 trinque: seems like the finger cutting wants an audience

03:12:27 mircea_popescu: hence deranged.

03:12:38 asciilifeform: i can easily picture them feeling it as a 'long no-safeword scene' or somesuch

03:12:38 nubbins`: since when is deranged a negative!

03:12:51 mircea_popescu: depends what you're looking for.

03:12:55 mircea_popescu: since when is buggy code bad ?

03:13:08 nubbins`: asciilifeform unsurprisingly there's a massive overlap between "body mod" world and bdsm

03:13:16 mircea_popescu: no there isn't.

03:13:20 trinque: miles of difference between getting choked or whatever and cutting off body parts

03:14:03 Chillum: damn hard drive died

03:14:06 ben_vulpes: punkman: yo i need legacy deed specifications. get in touch with trinque, if you'd be so kind.

03:14:11 Chillum: good thing I backup

03:14:21 nubbins`: you're no april's fool

03:14:27 Chillum: lol

03:14:30 ben_vulpes: ;;later tell punkman yo i need legacy deed specifications. get in touch with trinque, if you'd be so kind.

03:14:30 gribble: The operation succeeded.

03:14:33 mircea_popescu: there's a large overlap between idiotic sjw types, fair going lice-in-hair types, gender-and-social-role-issues types and perceived-scandalous-stuff types.

03:14:35 ben_vulpes: Chillum: back around again?

03:14:40 mircea_popescu: the overlap is : poor, stupid, young adults.

03:14:41 Chillum: almost spit gin and tonic out my nose nubbins`

03:14:51 Chillum: ben_vulpes: I am around

03:14:54 trinque: I knew someone who was a "cutter"

03:15:00 trinque: and it was invariably about the attention after the act

03:15:02 trinque: not the pain

03:15:05 trinque: this looks like that

03:15:08 ben_vulpes: trinque: always

03:15:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and for the record, the overlap between bdsm and "scenes" is roughly the overlap between human sexuality and brazzers.

03:15:35 mircea_popescu: weirdo kabuki nobody takes seriously.

03:15:38 asciilifeform: what are brazzers ?

03:15:46 nubbins`: mircea_popescu and there isn't an overlap between the two groups who agree "hurty things are nice". gotcha

03:15:50 mircea_popescu: this particular californite pron producer.

03:16:15 mircea_popescu: nubbins` if your idea of bdsm is "hurty things are nice" and idem of body mods, the problem is this will overlap anything.

03:16:20 asciilifeform: trinque: oddly enough i knew such a person, and it was very much not a 'performance act' considering that it was done in secret and only evident long after by the scars

03:16:20 mircea_popescu: for instance voting.

03:16:46 nubbins`: voting actually hurts

03:16:58 nubbins`: you know there's still no option for "none of the above" here?

03:17:10 mircea_popescu: heh.

03:17:50 ben_vulpes: good night, asshats!

03:18:10 trinque: ben_vulpes: adios

03:18:10 mircea_popescu: anyway. the pain per se is rarely sought by the body mod crowd. as trinque points out, attention whoring much higher on the list.

03:18:22 mircea_popescu: similarly, more people in bdsm are after the humiliation than the straight pain.

03:18:29 nubbins`: http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/twwly1/6iqbht6a.jpg

03:18:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbiJ6c )

03:18:34 mircea_popescu: so... you know, picking something way down off the list of either doesn't make much of a connection

03:19:08 nubbins`: in fairness, i went way farther down the mod rabbit hole than most

03:19:08 asciilifeform: i can even imagine cargo-cult masochists

03:19:20 asciilifeform: who go in for greater and greater torments, hoping to overflow the register

03:19:20 nubbins`: i've met some extremely complicated people over the years

03:19:40 mircea_popescu: nubbins` i am not proposing you're no good here.

03:19:59 nubbins`: good, 'cause i didn't get that impression

03:20:16 punkman: trinque: zlib compressed

03:20:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well the masochists you imagine and the masochists you'll encounter are guaranteed to never meet.

03:20:28 trinque: punkman: ah, thank you!

03:20:38 mircea_popescu: for one thing, actual masochism is quite rare. about as rare as actual homosexuals.

03:20:51 asciilifeform: so what are the remaining ones ?

03:20:51 mircea_popescu: whereas, plain female submission (either natural, or else imprinted/misdeveloped) is quite common.

03:20:55 asciilifeform: aha

03:21:14 mircea_popescu: women to some degree are coded to neglect pain or else they'd never get pregnant.

03:21:21 mircea_popescu: this isnt masochism per se.

03:21:29 asciilifeform: neglect != enjoy ?

03:21:52 nubbins`: knew a guy who went by the name "mal" who was in the process of letting his wife cut his dick off

03:22:01 mircea_popescu: well, neglect indeed can be enjoy.

03:22:09 mircea_popescu: imagine you just found out how to neglect noise in a noisy room

03:22:25 mircea_popescu: narrow space in the head, so everything ends up the other thing all the time. broken shit.

03:22:42 asciilifeform: i know of at least five cases of craftsmen who built and used, on selves, guillotines.

03:22:49 asciilifeform: does this count as amputation fetishism...

03:22:53 trinque: hahaha

03:22:57 mircea_popescu: or simple seneca-ism.

03:23:15 nubbins`: he ended up getting divorced in the end, which was a bit of a kick in his absent nuts

03:23:28 nubbins`: but at least he has a bifurcated penis for his troubles now

03:23:32 mircea_popescu: nubbins` i knew of a guy who was a total slob, ended up giving himself renal failure.

03:23:32 asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> narrow space in the head, so everything ends up the other thing << this is how the 'cutter' explained it to me

03:23:43 mircea_popescu: wife gave him a kidney (they matched), he cleanned up his act

03:23:47 mircea_popescu: and divorced her.

03:24:06 nubbins`: hm, you ever watch Lost? i guess not

03:24:13 mircea_popescu: nope ?

03:24:22 trinque: asciilifeform: hm, maybe I didn't describe the situation I know of fully. she mentioned that it cleared her head a couple times

03:24:40 nubbins`: anyway, in the show, there's this old man, john locke. hard life, series of misfortunes. finds his dad as an adult, befriends him, everything's great

03:24:41 trinque: I think a pathological way to do so, but maybe there was something there other than just the narcissism, though that factored in

03:24:43 nubbins`: dad needs a kidney.

03:25:05 nubbins`: john wakes up in the recovery room after donating said kidney -- dad had checked out an hour earlier, never to be seen again

03:25:20 mircea_popescu: ha.

03:25:39 mircea_popescu: actually, i now recall there was this ancient... czech maybe ? film, about a stamp collector

03:25:45 nubbins`: he tracks his dad down, they argue, dad pushes him out a 7th floor window, paralyzing him

03:25:49 mircea_popescu: and they tricked him with a rare stamp, guy lost a kidney.

03:26:27 asciilifeform: tales of stolen organs pre-date the invention of transplantation

03:26:32 asciilifeform: in fact, africans still 'muti'

03:26:58 asciilifeform: i wouldn't be certain that it will be very long before 'muti' is introduced in usa

03:27:10 asciilifeform: ('medicinal cannibalism')

03:27:33 trinque: I think I'd have to not consider my body to be "me" to be able to cut off a finger..

03:27:38 mircea_popescu: im sure they already do it in the ghetto.

03:27:44 trinque: seems like magical thinking just as bad as any religious nut

03:27:57 nubbins`: trinque what about "thinking" is not magical to you?

03:28:00 mircea_popescu: trinque im certainly able to cut the whole lot off.

03:28:03 mircea_popescu: just... why the fuck would i.

03:28:09 asciilifeform: trinque: not consider my body to be "me" << fwiw, this is how the shrinkature describes it

03:28:12 trinque: that's what I mean, able to rationalize it

03:28:30 trinque: asciilifeform: I agree up to the point where they try to make the body fit the "mind"

03:28:37 trinque: instead of saying look kid, you've got a penis

03:28:45 nubbins`: groan

03:28:49 mircea_popescu: yeah, because god forbid their stupid "mind" ie narciself ever has to adapt to anything.

03:28:53 trinque: ^

03:28:56 *: mircea_popescu *beatings*

03:29:44 Chillum: I have been looking into laser cutters. I have seen this aluminum with a black anodized layer. The laser can blast off the black layer to give strong contrasting metal images. I am thinking it may be a good way to make very long term(decades) bitcoin wallets

03:29:53 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/7a18b42546599744d309f33bf22c294a/tumblr_n3hc0skbZU1tpwtg5o1_1280.png

03:29:55 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbl4xZ )

03:30:23 nubbins`: "nineteen eighty-four" with an all-female cast!

03:30:31 mircea_popescu: Chillum if you could get it to work on bronze...

03:30:38 nubbins`: this is right before the "FOREVER"

03:30:49 Chillum: not sure if you can anodize bronze

03:30:57 Chillum: it has the advantage of being extremely durable

03:30:58 mircea_popescu: nubbins` it wouldn't work, imo. 1984 so deeply depends on very male erotic sentiment.

03:31:03 Chillum: why bronze?

03:31:08 nubbins`: Chillum i think you can

03:31:12 Chillum: nice

03:31:14 mircea_popescu: bronze is the most durable thing we have.

03:31:14 asciilifeform: Chillum: cut something that is actually thick

03:31:24 asciilifeform: and doesn't corrode

03:31:53 trinque: nubbins`: by magical thinking I mean the kind which simply tries to declare things to be other than they are

03:32:04 Chillum: aluminum insulates itself from corrosion once it gets a thin layer

03:32:08 nubbins`: trinque o.

03:32:26 Chillum: mircea_popescu: if it can be anodized then bronze would be a great way to go

03:32:35 mircea_popescu: i don't see why it couldn't.

03:32:37 Chillum: there are bronze items going back to... well the bronze age

03:32:45 nubbins`: like how the salaryman declares himself to be confident before asking for the promotion?

03:32:55 asciilifeform: bronze -items- not little scratches thereon.

03:33:02 mircea_popescu: actually the bronze age items will still be imperceptibly altered long after new york is barely a flat spot in the sediment record.

03:33:04 trinque: nubbins`: whatever bullshit rituals work for him

03:33:32 Chillum: just googled it, anodized bronze sheets are available

03:33:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you could make the dots 1 sqcm

03:33:47 trinque: nubbins`: he could simply decide that he is going to ask for the thing, and do it

03:33:53 asciilifeform: Chillum: at any rate, you need a very expensive tube before you can actually cut metals, vs. a thin coat of anodized.

03:33:54 Chillum: could work. The problem is that everyone needs their own laser cutter as you cannot trust another to make a key for you

03:34:06 nubbins`: sure. he could simply decide fuck this, i don't want this dick, what good's it anyway, too

03:34:07 mircea_popescu: Chillum lasers are cheap and getting cheaper.

03:34:18 trinque: nubbins`: I'm not gonna stop him

03:34:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tube lasers cost roughly what they cost 30 years ago,.

03:34:25 asciilifeform: the tech has not changed.

03:34:28 nubbins`: of course you're not. how could you?

03:34:29 Chillum: cutting metal is a no-go for co2 lasers, not going to spend 20k+ on a metal cutter

03:34:31 nubbins`: o.O

03:34:44 mircea_popescu: and ima go eulora. laters!

03:34:45 Chillum: but zapping off 1-2mm thick layers of anodization is doable

03:34:50 asciilifeform: Chillum: you can buy arbitrarily large co2 tube.

03:34:53 asciilifeform: but - expensive.

03:35:05 trinque: nubbins`: this gets into "everything's relative" and I don't really subscribe to that

03:35:12 Chillum: true but beyond a certain power other types of lasers make more sense

03:35:16 trinque: what would happen if every man cut off his dick

03:35:21 nubbins`: lel.

03:35:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36300 @ 0.00025557 = 9.2772 BTC [+]

03:35:29 nubbins`: the laws of probability would have broken down

03:35:33 asciilifeform: Chillum: you will find that, large or small, the cost of the cooling and ventilation apparatus will approach the cost of the machine itself.

03:35:35 nubbins`: and we'd have bigger problems.

03:35:45 nubbins`: like, say, the lineup at the dick-scissor store.

03:35:52 asciilifeform: !s dulap

03:35:53 assbot: 14 results for 'dulap' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=dulap

03:36:11 Chillum: asciilifeform: I am for a larger place to live, then I will be getting one. Will certainly be doing a lot of research first

03:36:33 nubbins`: trinque it kinda seems like you're arguing people cut their dicks off /on a whim/

03:36:35 trinque: +nubbins` | like, say, the lineup at the dick-scissor store. < ahahha

03:36:59 nubbins`: like "oh, lel, w/e"

03:37:11 decimation: does usg even allow you to possess a laser like that without permission?

03:37:15 trinque: nubbins`: nah it seems like... a big deal

03:37:25 trinque: maybe life is just too boring for them?

03:37:36 nubbins`: yep. maybe.

03:37:38 trinque: they'd rather be hacking enemies with axes or god knows what

03:37:43 asciilifeform: Chillum: if you must cut metal, in virtually all cases milling, water-jet, or even plasma cut is cheaper.

03:37:51 Chillum: I don't expect to cut metal

03:37:58 trinque: nubbins`: I was actually looking for an explanation for the thing

03:38:13 trinque: that one sort of works... "I'm wired to experience far more pain and risk than I've ever seen in this boring life"

03:38:23 Chillum: I expect to remove a layer of foil, laminent or anodization from metal

03:38:29 asciilifeform: on account of the poor massless photons, a 100w power saw cuts like a 10kW laser..

03:38:33 trinque: just seems a bad substitute for whatever used to satisfy it, if that's so

03:38:52 decimation: asciilifeform: wouldn't most of the photons get reflected dangerously around the area?

03:38:54 Chillum: it would be nice to cut PCBs but not going to happen in my price range

03:39:05 asciilifeform: decimation: depends on the wavelength

03:39:07 nubbins`: trinque people who feel they're being cheated of pain and risk usually take up dangerous hobbies

03:39:13 nubbins`: not get a sex change

03:39:20 decimation: Chillum: why not use milling bit to mill pcb?

03:39:23 trinque: nubbins`: I was talking about the guy who chops his finger off

03:39:27 trinque: dunno then

03:39:32 trinque: nubbins`: what do you think it is?

03:39:33 nubbins`: oh, jeez. you're jumping back and forth.

03:39:37 asciilifeform: decimation: glass, for instance, is quite opaque to ir and cuts with co2 tube

03:39:43 nubbins`: trinque are you hetero?

03:39:47 trinque: nubbins`: I am

03:39:48 decimation: yeah but metal?

03:39:54 Chillum: decimation: it is cheaper to just use ferric chloride

03:39:56 nubbins`: ever really wanted to fuck?

03:39:59 Chillum: nasty stuff but effective

03:40:09 trinque: nubbins`: yeah this one time..

03:40:17 nubbins`: i mean, REALLY, REALLY wanted to

03:40:21 trinque: of course

03:40:25 asciilifeform: etched pcb will probably keep longer than any ancient papyrus

03:40:28 asciilifeform: if not submerged

03:40:36 asciilifeform: cu on fiberglass

03:40:36 nubbins`: multiply that by 1000, and make it about having a pussy instead of a dick.

03:40:46 Chillum: etched PCB wallets is something I tried

03:40:55 nubbins`: does that make sense?

03:41:25 trinque: nubbins`: but was the guy getting his dick chopped off one of those?

03:41:38 trinque: and yeah, it does a bit

03:41:40 nubbins`: ask him

03:41:43 asciilifeform: nubbins`: in a way, the folks who 'by 1000 want' to be dragons, are better off

03:41:47 trinque: turns out though that we don't know how to make men into women

03:41:51 asciilifeform: nubbins`: they won't be taken in by a cruel sham

03:42:00 trinque: we just know how to turn a dick inside out and sew it inside

03:42:02 nubbins`: what i'm trying to say is that it's impossible for me, or you, to say what any individual's motivations are when doing something this extreme

03:42:05 asciilifeform: because we have not yet invented a 'trans-draconic' industry

03:42:19 trinque: nubbins`: I'll agree with that

03:43:13 decimation: if you want to make a 'long life wallet' just get a small sheet of bronze and hand-etch with 'hand engraver' for 10 bux

03:43:17 nubbins`: what's the most complicated personal crisis you've had to deal with?

03:43:43 asciilifeform: decimation: problem is that anything easy to do, is easy for the sands of time to scramble up.

03:44:07 trinque: nubbins`: identity-wise? I don't tend to think about it. maybe something to do with a job

03:44:39 Chillum: All I know is that anodizing is used instead of paint when something needs to stand up to more abuse

03:44:45 trinque: that relates to how I see this, as a sort of obsession with identity

03:44:46 decimation: asciilifeform: or you could use a 'letter & number die punch set', it would take quite awhile to wear off

03:44:50 nubbins`: most people don't tend to think about personal crises once they've passed, so you're not unusual in that regard. did you find it hard to succinctly state what was wrong, to yourself or to others?

03:44:53 Chillum: a true engraving or outside cut-out would be more ideal

03:45:04 Chillum: solid gold or platinum would not decay

03:45:27 asciilifeform: obligatory >> https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/Robust.HTM

03:45:29 assbot: Writing in the Sand: The Need for Ultra-Robust Digital Archiving ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbobG9 )

03:45:57 trinque: nubbins`: I am invariably dull when it comes to expressing my feelings to others

03:46:08 trinque: but yes, very hard to take internal state and convey it sometimes, for anyone

03:46:14 Chillum: asciilifeform: nice link, I have read that before

03:46:22 nubbins`: sure. and that's for something as trivial and banal as a fucking /job/.

03:46:32 Chillum: the fact is we have a big tech gap when it comes to storing digital information for long term

03:46:41 decimation: ok imagine you had a gold-etched lexan 'wallet'

03:46:54 decimation: the problem I see is, how are you gonna protect it from being seen?

03:46:54 nubbins`: now imagine how difficult it would be to take the internal state of /wanting to amputate part of your body/ and convey it

03:47:04 Chillum: the gold would not have to be thick

03:47:05 decimation: put it in bank vault?

03:47:08 trinque: nubbins`: yeah I see your point

03:47:18 trinque: and how that could run away

03:47:36 nubbins`: anyone who claims to have a grasp on the processes behind these decisions is blowing smoke up your ass

03:47:40 trinque: so doing it ends the obsession? or is that the hope?

03:47:40 asciilifeform: fuse a bulb of cloudy synthetic quartz around a gold plate.

03:47:47 asciilifeform: should suffice for a geological epoch or two

03:47:48 trinque: that begins to make a shred of sense

03:47:54 asciilifeform: question being, wtf and why

03:47:56 trinque: not how they get the obsession in the first place, but how it ends

03:47:58 decimation: asciilifeform: exactly

03:48:18 decimation: so you put it in your 'safe deposit box', and the bank employees read

03:48:20 decimation: now what

03:48:24 nubbins`: how they get the obsession, probably 99% of them couldn't tell you

03:48:43 asciilifeform: nubbins`: <nubbins`> anyone who claims to have a grasp on the processes behind these decisions is blowing smoke up your ass << the amputation folks do appear to converge on certain threads in their explanations, iirc

03:48:59 trinque: it's gonna end up being some bastard fungi

03:49:02 nubbins`: asciilifeform the most common one i've seen is "the part just felt wrong being there"

03:49:07 asciilifeform: aha

03:49:24 nubbins`: consider the afore-shared "twwly"

03:49:24 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=27-02-2015#1035299

03:49:24 assbot: Logged on 27-02-2015 02:39:08; decimation: "LAWRENCE Look, Ali. Look! That's me. What colour is it? That's me! And there's nothing I can do about it. ALI A man can do whatever he wants, you said. LAWRENCE He can, but he can't want what he wants.This is the stuff [his flesh] that decides what he wants."

03:49:31 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i suspect that it will turn up being an elementary proprioception quirk

03:49:32 nubbins`: had a fingertip amputated maybe 15 years ago

03:49:41 asciilifeform: sorta like an inverse anosognosia

03:49:44 nubbins`: how many fingertips amputated since? 0

03:50:29 nubbins`: alf you just made me dictionary two words, tyvm

03:50:49 nubbins`: but yes, that sounds quite apt

03:51:06 trinque: hm that could be an extremely annoying feeling

03:51:16 nubbins`: more annoying than tinnitus

03:51:19 trinque: getting all this sensory input from a thing that shouldn't be there

03:51:43 nubbins`: anyway, who can say how a thing gets into a brain?

03:52:17 nubbins`: i have this hazy memory of being extremely sick as a young child, and rolling some very small object, like the size of a grain of sand, between my thumb and forefinger as i writhed in agony

03:52:19 decimation: el Lawrence said it was the flesh that puts it there

03:52:22 nubbins`: maybe 3 years old at the time

03:52:35 nubbins`: this feeling, of rolling the whatever-it-was between my fingers, comes back from time to time

03:52:45 trinque: hm, maybe you picked up something nasty?

03:52:50 asciilifeform: nubbins`: or the american expression, dating at least to civil war, of 'biting the bullet'

03:52:58 nubbins`: no, i mean the sensation of rolling the grain in my fingers

03:53:07 nubbins`: something very queasy about it

03:53:24 trinque: I'm confused; this was an object or just a sensation?

03:53:27 trinque: or you don't know?

03:53:33 nubbins`: i don't even know if it happened

03:53:47 nubbins`: but it's stuck in my head and every once in a while i get a grain of salt stuck to my thumb

03:53:56 nubbins`: and i walk around for a half hour... rolling it

03:54:00 nubbins`: around and around

03:54:14 nubbins`: does this make sense? what is its cause?

03:54:27 nubbins`: why does it make me feel like throwing up sometimes?

03:54:50 nubbins`: brains are strange things

03:55:00 nubbins`: and shit gets stuck in them sometimes

03:55:01 decimation: whatever it is, it ain't an object of reason

03:55:04 trinque: I could see there being disorders of the sort of universe modeling of the brain

03:55:07 asciilifeform: nubbins`: patients at chemotherapeutic clinics are often given weird sodas, etc. to drink, for this reason

03:55:15 asciilifeform: nausea is very quick route to associative memory

03:55:17 trinque: like leakage between whatever can make a grain of rice appear in my mind's eye

03:55:22 asciilifeform: for reasons that don't seem mysterious at all

03:55:23 trinque: and whatever models one on my finger

03:55:42 asciilifeform: (nausea is, 'in the wild,' generally an indicator of having been poisoned)

03:56:36 nubbins`: incidentally, i had a crazy stomach flu a couple years ago and now whenever i get really hungry i feel like barfing

04:01:03 nubbins`: so the roomie that's being kicked out: he puts on a pot of water to boil yesterday

04:01:21 nubbins`: heads upstairs, the water boils, boils, boils down to a quarter-cup before he wanders back down

04:01:44 Chillum: milled stone may be the choice for something to last for 100 years +

04:01:52 nubbins`: says "oh, i forgot", pours his quarter-cup of water into a mug, puts the pot (which has only contained water) into a dirty sink for someone else to wash

04:02:00 Chillum: worked for the Egyptians

04:02:02 nubbins`: and walks away without turning off the stove burner o.O

04:02:08 decimation: Chillum: yeah but what are you gonna write on it? Chillum wuz here?

04:02:28 Chillum: decimation: a bitcoin wallet with 1 bitcoin, think about how much it will be worth in 4000 years!

04:02:43 asciilifeform: 1 bitcoin...

04:02:50 asciilifeform: (worth)

04:03:09 decimation: Chillum: and how are you gonna keep some random chump from ambling by and liberating the contents?

04:03:37 Chillum: perhaps I should just write "Chillum was here"

04:03:50 Chillum: seriously though, create a giant pyramid over it

04:04:03 asciilifeform: forget the pyramid, just leave n bits off the key.

04:04:18 Chillum: hehe, make it so that you ahve to brute force it for 4000 years?

04:04:22 decimation: pass them through oral history?

04:04:26 asciilifeform: y years

04:04:42 asciilifeform: what f where f(y) = n, exercise for reader.

04:05:02 Chillum: it would be nice if there was a public/private key system somehow based on time

04:05:08 decimation: asciilifeform: but if your purpose is to send bitcoin to random person, just send it to a random address?

04:05:15 Chillum: like you could encrypt a message that could be decoded until a specific date

04:05:24 asciilifeform: decimation: what the 'purpose' is of this, i will leave to the shrinks.

04:05:26 asciilifeform: of the future.

04:05:32 Chillum: I found this: http://www.timescramble.com/ but that is trusting a 3rd party which is lame

04:05:33 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbrYU0 )

04:05:50 asciilifeform: Chillum has rediscovered 'slavecoin'.

04:05:55 decimation: heh

04:06:24 nubbins`: where's hari seldon when you need him

04:06:38 Chillum: never heard of slavecoin

04:06:52 asciilifeform: !s slavecoin

04:06:53 assbot: 26 results for 'slavecoin' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=slavecoin

04:07:01 asciilifeform: Chillum: it's a #b-a exclusive, afaik.

04:07:04 nubbins`: whoever finds your milled stone will have to get to the end of the first book before he figures out wtf is going on

04:07:46 Chillum: I will have to include a stone version of the block chain

04:09:06 nubbins`: anyway i'm gonna have a jazz smoke and head to bed. if someone gets portatronic pogotronic static-o-matic bitcoind recipe posted to ML by month's end, i'll send you a free hand-bound book

04:09:16 decimation: maybe you could sculpt a facsimile of yourself and cut its fuckkin' hand off

04:09:20 Chillum: jazz smokes are the best smokes

04:09:25 nubbins`: ^

04:09:26 nubbins`: nite

04:09:45 Chillum: I am jazzing right now

04:09:49 asciilifeform: ;;ud jazz smoke

04:09:50 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jazz+smoke | jazz smoke isn't defined. Can you define it? * Meaning. Random Word. Ten Words Trending Now. trap queen · swamp donkey · on fleek · sex · dutch rudder ...

04:09:54 asciilifeform: hm.

04:09:57 nubbins`: ;;ud jazz cigarette

04:09:58 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jazz+cigarette | A slang term used for Marijuana cigarettes during the 1920's in the United States. Cannabis cigarettes were sold in jazz clubs during this period thus the origin of ...

04:10:00 Chillum: weed ascii, weed

04:10:05 asciilifeform: aha.

04:10:16 nubbins`: one of the more comical euphemisms

04:10:32 nubbins`: on that note...

04:10:32 *: asciilifeform expected it to be something more specific - weed smoked through trombone, or the like

04:11:14 Chillum: that is called trombonging

04:11:16 asciilifeform: obligatory : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VvuOUYe7mI

04:11:17 assbot: Soldiers Smoking Weed During Vietnam War - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1FDLQJ9 )

04:12:38 Chillum: shotgunning is based off of trombonging

04:12:48 Chillum: which itself is based on trumptoking

04:12:56 Chillum: which is smoking through a trumpet

04:13:22 Chillum: completely unrelated to harp-hooting though

04:15:07 asciilifeform: how the hell does one smoke a harp ?

04:16:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30800 @ 0.00025019 = 7.7059 BTC [-] {2}

04:16:17 decimation: actually if you want to have something amusing stand the test of time, why not make a '10,000 year clock' like those yahoos in texas

04:17:02 asciilifeform: decimation: if they were serious about the 10,000 - they would have parked it on the moon

04:17:22 asciilifeform: rather than down here, where it waits for the scrap dealers of aztlan circa 2080s

04:17:34 decimation: yeah I don't think they are serious, apparently it partially depends on visitors winding it

04:18:17 decimation: is aztlan the 'blade runner'-style distopia?

04:18:24 asciilifeform: decimation: nah

04:18:43 asciilifeform: decimation: more of an extrapolation of present-day mexican turf wars with a pseudohistoric flavour

04:19:08 asciilifeform: (think mussolini's relationship with rome)

04:19:15 decimation: yeah, the movie was naive to think that the chinese would take over before the central americans

04:19:48 asciilifeform: decimation: the traditional picture is each empire getting its 'correct' continent

04:20:14 asciilifeform: 'rice kingdom' is a civilization type, after all

04:20:30 asciilifeform: doesn't really work in climates without rice.

04:20:40 asciilifeform: or so went the reasoning.

04:21:38 decimation: certainly geography and civilization are correlated

04:29:03 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2015/04/09/you-know-what-doesnt-wash-your-pathetic-attempts-to-teach-the-controversy-thats-what/#comment-14820

04:29:04 assbot: You know what doesn’t wash? Your pathetic attempts to “teach the controversy.” That’s what. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbwj9N )

04:29:04 asciilifeform: see also: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2015#1063368

04:29:04 assbot: Logged on 22-03-2015 02:22:03; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with jurisdictions discussed recentlier is deeper than it seems. plenty of usians do not think other places are "real places".

04:29:21 Chillum: harp hooting is when you play a harp while making obnoxious hooting noises at passing women

04:31:29 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: quite so.

04:32:11 pete_dushenski: the world is as we learned it in social studies

04:32:26 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the interesting, and perhaps nonobvious - tidbit - is that these folks -actually- perceive 'american law' and 'god's law' (whether or not they worship any gods) to be one and the same

04:32:32 asciilifeform: it isn't, as far as i can tell, a pretense

04:32:54 pete_dushenski: i have the same sense.

04:33:11 Chillum: amazing what some nutbars believe

04:33:11 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

04:33:41 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: though that this thought and sympathy with defectors can co-exist is, to me, baffling

04:33:59 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it is the 'sympathy' of torquemada for the heretic

04:34:04 pete_dushenski: i mean, doesn't someone have to be in the right ?

04:34:15 asciilifeform: ready to hug him, kiss him good-night before lighting the pyre, so long as he repents

04:34:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53200 @ 0.00025446 = 13.5373 BTC [+]

04:34:46 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: hm. suppose so eh.

04:35:21 asciilifeform: the american puritans invented a term of art for this, 'love the sinner and hate the sin'

04:35:24 pete_dushenski: and when snowden dies for our sins, we can be free

04:35:59 pete_dushenski: because we are all the sinners

04:36:07 pete_dushenski: we just want other people to atone for it

04:36:33 pete_dushenski: "you fast on yom kippur, ima fucking eat this pizza"

04:37:04 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: at any rate, snowden deserves his share of being pissed on for his failure to say 'yes, if you are a servant of usg i want to see your miserable existence end on headsoff.com'

04:37:13 asciilifeform: 'sooner - better'

04:37:47 asciilifeform: in a way he is buying into the inquisitor's proposition.

04:37:57 asciilifeform: by failing to immediately reply with exactly this.

04:37:59 pete_dushenski: of course, but he's awfully timid for that headsoff bizniz

04:38:16 pete_dushenski: he grew up american, never knowing war or hunger

04:38:21 asciilifeform: not as if he were personally asked to work the guillotine

04:38:31 pete_dushenski: but, must still imagine it

04:38:39 pete_dushenski: and its uses and purposes

04:38:40 asciilifeform: but could so much as admit that 'though i am a german, a good nazi is a dead one'

04:39:36 pete_dushenski: but a non-nazi german would've still witnessed abuses and tragedies, first hand, that would make a deskmonkey faint instantly

04:39:58 pete_dushenski: or at least there's a greater probability of this

04:40:10 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it is difficult to imagine that cia employee would have no concept of what usg dishes out to the rest of the planet (as well as own subjects)

04:40:11 pete_dushenski: mebbe your friend the joo was shipped off in a cattle car

04:40:29 asciilifeform: just as an exterminator probably has some idea of what the ant hill experiences

04:40:30 pete_dushenski: pictures don't smell

04:40:43 pete_dushenski: pictures don't say goodbye

04:41:03 pete_dushenski: cia employee has seen pictures, that's it

04:41:19 pete_dushenski: not foot soldiers, these

04:41:25 asciilifeform: thing is, plenty of folks who have never killed so much as a rat, happily howl for blood of this or that enemy

04:41:40 asciilifeform: it is an instinct, like sex

04:41:56 pete_dushenski: well snowden is also "educated"

04:42:05 pete_dushenski: which in usian means "isolated"

04:42:16 asciilifeform: the desire is not really connected with whether you have the talent, or opportunity, to do it

04:42:42 pete_dushenski: ok i can see that

04:43:11 pete_dushenski: still depends on whether you see value in it, or imagine yourself as 'above such barbarity'

04:43:27 pete_dushenski: or 'mebbe there's another way'

04:43:36 pete_dushenski: 'a better way' (tm)

04:43:38 asciilifeform: to the extent we even have an accurate picture of a non-fictional man 'snowden' - he isn't particularly clever.

04:43:56 asciilifeform: supposedly, e.g., 'waited to leak because didn't want to sink obama election' etc.

04:44:07 pete_dushenski: lol

04:44:22 pete_dushenski: definitely an utopian idealist streak in there

04:44:24 asciilifeform: very much, going by the public statements, a believer in some idea of a return to a mythical 'old' usg

04:44:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92373 @ 0.00024603 = 22.7265 BTC [-] {2}

04:44:36 asciilifeform: that didn't 'need' to be killed

04:45:31 pete_dushenski: yup. like your old dog that just needs another surgery to return her to her former puppious glory

04:45:34 asciilifeform: at some point, somebody could publish a compendium of everything herr snowden spoke under actual gpg signature

04:45:44 asciilifeform: (is this a null set ?)

04:45:58 pete_dushenski: i'd be surprised if it was

04:45:58 asciilifeform: because 'we fuck people but do business with keys' (TM)

04:46:44 asciilifeform: in so far as this compendium remains hypothetical - snowden's beliefs are 'angels on a pin'

04:47:57 pete_dushenski: interviews shed some light as to his stances, i think it's pretty clear.

04:48:07 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: did he sign'em ?

04:48:25 pete_dushenski: well, not the videos

04:48:31 asciilifeform: or, for that matter, the documents ?

04:48:52 asciilifeform: (if he had, we wouldn't necessarily know, the greenwald gang mutilated all beyond recognition)

04:48:54 pete_dushenski: greenwald, i ain't, so you'll have to ask him

04:49:02 pete_dushenski: right.

04:49:20 pete_dushenski: but there's no shortage of video about

04:49:50 asciilifeform: since mircea_popescu is asleep, i shall fill in for him, and point out that: not signed - not vouched for by anyone in wot - may as well be a piece of litter on the street.

04:49:55 asciilifeform: a bottle washed up from the sea.

04:50:16 asciilifeform: any and all 'snowden interviews' fall into this class of item

04:50:35 asciilifeform: the message in the bottle may be true. or not

04:51:09 pete_dushenski: well do we even know his fingerprint or have his public key block ?

04:51:33 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: there is some key, somewhere, supposedly associated with the character.

04:52:04 pete_dushenski: http://cryptome.org/2014/01/snowden-booz-pks.htm

04:52:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CysrV7 )

04:52:17 pete_dushenski: ^heh, pgp key associated with 'hushmail' acct

04:52:38 pete_dushenski: http://sks.pkqs.net/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x4DB8A08821B7141F

04:52:39 assbot: Public Key Server -- Get "0x4db8a08821b7141f " ... ( http://bit.ly/1CysuAy )

04:53:48 asciilifeform: that key, properly speaking, -is- snowden

04:54:09 asciilifeform: the -other- snowdens are dubious in whatever ways

04:54:33 asciilifeform: the more so, to the extent they appear to diverge from the authentifiable one.

04:55:11 pete_dushenski: i won't really argue that.

04:55:23 pete_dushenski: twould be to argue against maffs

04:55:27 asciilifeform: not sure how many folks are ready for this mental leap

04:55:54 asciilifeform: just as there were people who could not make the leap to 'wire is lifeless and small but can kill elephant'

04:56:23 asciilifeform: but it remains

04:56:36 pete_dushenski: as ever, many will be left behind.

04:56:42 asciilifeform: that - to a historian, or whatever other kind of remote third party - it is keys that 'are people'

04:56:59 asciilifeform: while people, to the extent that they cannot be connected with a key, are just bags of meat.

04:57:53 pete_dushenski: right. w/o keys, we'd just be blobs of flesh and bone, indistinguishable from any other

04:58:05 pete_dushenski: lol

04:58:09 asciilifeform: if anyone recalls, iirc it was in a mircea_popescu article that we find observation that 'to this day the holes in the mains socket have to remain small'

04:58:19 pete_dushenski: such an echo chamber, this place

04:58:38 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the basic concept is due to hanbot's 'shall be delivered'

04:59:00 pete_dushenski: i'm not familiar with said concept.

04:59:07 pete_dushenski: !s shall be delivered

04:59:08 assbot: 29 results for 'shall be delivered' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=shall+be+delivered

04:59:26 *: pete_dushenski expects bfl-related forum posts

04:59:35 asciilifeform: http://thewhet.net/2012/shall-be-delivered

04:59:36 assbot: Shall be Delivered | The Whet ... ( http://bit.ly/1CysTmg )

04:59:46 asciilifeform: ^ monumental masterpiece

04:59:51 asciilifeform: in all seriousness.

05:00:11 asciilifeform: a good bit of why i even came to this place

05:02:16 pete_dushenski: huh. fancy that.

05:02:42 asciilifeform: like 'the cold equations', but done -right-

05:03:05 asciilifeform: if i were to live for another twenty whole years, i could wish to produce something equalling this.

05:03:37 pete_dushenski: ah, i remember reading jurov's piece from that competition as well.

05:03:50 pete_dushenski: i'd like to see another such competition one of these days

05:06:00 BingoBoingo: !up eric

05:32:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79277 @ 0.00024249 = 19.2239 BTC [-]

05:35:41 BingoBoingo: rewatching citizen4 snowden gedanken film. Forgot they showed the NSA facility under construction in Mormon Judea as a backdrop for so many narrations. Awfully close to the interstate.

05:37:55 BingoBoingo: Federal appellate court room also featured. Looks more drab the local county oppression centers.

05:39:42 BingoBoingo: Douche DOJ lawyer in a pedo bow tie

05:40:39 BingoBoingo: Also video judge broadcasting from hospital chapel

05:40:43 BingoBoingo: !up ColinT

05:41:51 BingoBoingo: Jacob Appelbaum setting OWS fuckers up for greater surveillance...

05:42:11 BingoBoingo: Such great lulz in this film for decompression

05:50:51 BingoBoingo: Glen Greenwald opening the conversation with Snowden by trying to write a story about snowden during day 1 of year 0

05:53:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31072 @ 0.00024074 = 7.4803 BTC [-]

05:55:20 pete_dushenski: ;;later tell hanbot those last two paragraphs of 'shall be delivered' ... goosebumps.

05:55:21 gribble: The operation succeeded.

06:01:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65300 @ 0.00024328 = 15.8862 BTC [+] {3}

06:04:35 BingoBoingo: TEMPORA

06:05:11 BingoBoingo: And then... Greenwald shuts down his Guardian coworker

06:06:24 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: comment replied, in case you dun check on these things.

06:07:49 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: "Magic Mantle of Power" was Snowden's technical term for the red hood

06:20:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33600 @ 0.00024639 = 8.2787 BTC [+]

06:30:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37228 @ 0.00024639 = 9.1726 BTC [+]

06:33:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80520 @ 0.00025435 = 20.4803 BTC [+] {3}

06:36:36 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: tenure does not exist in canada? << it does. but like a thursday night of caviar and dom p, isn't for everyone.

06:37:34 pete_dushenski: or mebbe it was only open to kokkarinen in city he didn't want to live in.

06:37:49 pete_dushenski: some are more 'mobile' than others

06:43:28 pete_dushenski: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-04-2015#1092714 << heh. i also received this e-mail

06:43:28 assbot: Logged on 09-04-2015 02:22:03; BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: http://qntra.net/2015/04/coinbase-outgoing-email-hacked/

06:43:43 *: BingoBoingo did not

06:49:31 pete_dushenski: "Okey dokey, but this smells very much like a conspiracy theory. Especially the action item at the end: "spread the word." If you had ended with "These are the concrete things we all should be doing" then I'd be more sympathetic... assuming those things weren't just "BE EXTRA PARANOID! THEY ARE OUT TO GET US!" "

06:49:57 pete_dushenski: ^via chief satoshi dress-up artist : http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/31vl7q/there_is_a_targeted_attack_on_bitcoin_occurring/cq5fdfo

06:49:58 assbot: gavinandresen comments on There is a targeted attack on Bitcoin occurring right now, coordinated by national agencies. I know this because I am an insider with prior involvement in a key operation. ... ( http://bit.ly/1H6ILDq )

06:50:12 pete_dushenski: such lulz, this guy!

06:50:47 ben_vulpes: <nubbins`> [03:53] and i walk around for a half hour... rolling it << i chased myself around my brain trying to get a look at myself for an hour or four on acid this one time

06:50:56 pete_dushenski: mebbe when john oliver wears holes in his knee pads, gavin can fill in

06:51:29 pete_dushenski: heya ben_vulpes

06:51:35 ben_vulpes: evening pete_dushenski

06:51:56 pete_dushenski: it goes ?

06:52:00 ben_vulpes: ca va?

06:52:36 ben_vulpes: well, well.

06:52:41 pete_dushenski: lol yup. twas a full, productive day. i'll sleep well tonight

06:53:00 ben_vulpes: lucky you

06:53:57 ben_vulpes: i'll probably stare at the ceiling for an hour or two, thinking about the infinite amount of shit i should be taking care of before clocking out for the con

06:54:13 ben_vulpes: arbeit macht frei

06:55:05 pete_dushenski: ah, you leave so soon ?

06:56:15 ben_vulpes: tuesday morning. some 24 hours of travel, each way.

06:56:26 ben_vulpes: for the serene republic!

06:57:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16900 @ 0.00024795 = 4.1904 BTC [-]

06:58:20 ben_vulpes: <decimation> [04:16] yeah I don't think they are serious, apparently it partially depends on visitors winding it << tbh i find this delightful and entertaining

06:58:39 ben_vulpes: perhaps a whole cult springs up around it someday - "to wind the clock!"

06:59:21 pete_dushenski: it wouldn't be much less travel from here to meat-b-a. timisoara woulda been faster to travel to.

07:00:02 pete_dushenski: how many days are you gone in total ?

07:00:43 ben_vulpes: 10.

07:01:04 pete_dushenski: sweetness

07:01:31 ben_vulpes: "lifestyle business", i keep reminding myself while reviewing the books.

07:02:56 pete_dushenski: i have nfi what you're talking about. lol which books be these?

07:04:06 ben_vulpes: i plan to bike around, wander around a few neighborhoods, post up in cafés to get some personal hax in, take tango lessons in the evening, nap, eat steak drink wine, sleep, repeat, con, etc.

07:04:32 ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: "books" << the ledgers?!

07:04:55 ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mircea_popescu heh maybe i'm not the worst jew after all

07:04:55 gribble: The operation succeeded.

07:05:17 pete_dushenski: lolk stan already took that award anyways

07:05:52 pete_dushenski: but seriously jeez you make 'the ledgers' sound like the fuckin dead sea scrolls

07:06:09 ben_vulpes: bookkeeping's fucking important.

07:07:01 pete_dushenski: well, this'd go back to that 'did the burning of alexandria's library matter or nyot' question

07:07:11 ben_vulpes: how?

07:08:09 pete_dushenski: well in that memories, skills, and ideas, are passed down regardless of whether they're recoverable in written form 2,000 years later

07:08:44 pete_dushenski: people have dozens of other avenues for information distribution and storage other than centralised paper recrods

07:08:49 pete_dushenski: records*

07:09:36 ben_vulpes: no man, when i say "the books" i mean my derpy little company's p/l statements, outgoing bills, outstanding invoices, the like

07:10:13 pete_dushenski: o well then that was a tangent for nothing ;/

07:10:47 pete_dushenski: !b 8

07:10:47 assbot: Last 8 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1E04301.txt )

07:10:47 ben_vulpes: point being that some weeks i'm very glad to have structured my life as i've done so.

07:11:11 pete_dushenski: this being one of those weeks ?

07:11:34 ben_vulpes: next tuesday when i punch out for ten days will definitely.

07:12:41 pete_dushenski: mobility is a hell of a drug, and a hell of a luxury

07:13:27 ben_vulpes: heh i actually hate running around

07:13:55 ben_vulpes: but *doing a thing* is different.

07:13:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42550 @ 0.00024795 = 10.5503 BTC [-]

07:15:11 pete_dushenski: and what a thing it'll be. you boys will have a blast

07:18:56 ben_vulpes: it'll be a trip, that's for sure.

07:20:06 pete_dushenski: and this channel will be awfully quiet without you, mp, and alf!

07:20:28 ben_vulpes: light logs the past few days even

07:22:03 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [04:58] http://thewhet.net/2012/shall-be-delivered << shivers and nightmares

07:22:04 assbot: Shall be Delivered | The Whet ... ( http://bit.ly/1NVBFl9 )

07:22:22 ben_vulpes: every time, pretty much.

07:22:23 pete_dushenski: quiet fraudsters too. i imagine that there are many preparations underway for your arrival :)

07:23:29 ben_vulpes: i've been hardening my liver

07:24:13 ben_vulpes: and will doubtless get drunk under the table by asciilifeform

07:30:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20960 @ 0.00025557 = 5.3567 BTC [+]

07:34:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00025601 = 2.8673 BTC [+] {2}

07:36:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87406 @ 0.00025612 = 22.3864 BTC [+] {2}

07:40:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29722 @ 0.00024795 = 7.3696 BTC [-]

07:47:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43678 @ 0.00024552 = 10.7238 BTC [-]

08:03:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5185 @ 0.00024716 = 1.2815 BTC [+]

08:11:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69600 @ 0.00024598 = 17.1202 BTC [-] {2}

08:40:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53170 @ 0.00024683 = 13.124 BTC [+] {2}

08:43:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66310 @ 0.00025667 = 17.0198 BTC [+] {2}

08:45:02 mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats

08:45:06 gribble: Current Blocks: 351360 | Current Difficulty: 4.944639068824144E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 352799 | Next Difficulty In: 1439 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 19 hours, 40 minutes, and 9 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 48126215253.6 | Estimated Percent Change: -2.66991

08:51:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65300 @ 0.00024857 = 16.2316 BTC [-]

09:07:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36600 @ 0.00024663 = 9.0267 BTC [-] {2}

09:23:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20050 @ 0.00024686 = 4.9495 BTC [+]

09:29:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33550 @ 0.00024436 = 8.1983 BTC [-] {3}

09:37:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48900 @ 0.00024341 = 11.9027 BTC [-]

09:49:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56950 @ 0.00024925 = 14.1948 BTC [+]

10:16:21 jurov: hello

10:16:30 jurov: mircea_popescu: withdrawals pls

10:16:49 mats: http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/572213/microsoft-creates-container-windows heh

10:16:51 assbot: Microsoft creates a container for Windows - Computerworld ... ( http://bit.ly/1PncNGg )

10:31:29 davout: "Microsoft creates a container for Windows, reinvents toilet bowl"

10:32:43 mats: this is a bad idea and so is ntoskrnl support for docker

10:39:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.0002572 = 3.858 BTC [+]

10:40:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 293850 @ 0.00026252 = 77.1415 BTC [+] {6}

10:53:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86500 @ 0.0002433 = 21.0455 BTC [-] {2}

11:14:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84150 @ 0.0002507 = 21.0964 BTC [+] {2}

11:34:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66350 @ 0.00026549 = 17.6153 BTC [+]

11:59:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61250 @ 0.00026457 = 16.2049 BTC [-]

12:00:52 funkenstein_: this guy wrote a couple papers over a year ago, claiming vulns in mining

12:01:01 funkenstein_: arxiv.org/abs/1311.0243 and arxiv.org/abs/1411.7099

12:01:13 funkenstein_: totally bogus

12:01:29 funkenstein_: if any of you care i can write it up

12:04:19 fluffypony: funkenstein_: the game theoretic Nash Equilibrium stuff isn't bogus, as far as I can see

12:05:13 Adlai: what is there to write about it, at this point, beyond "no mining pool operator is honest enough to publicly disclose their selfish mining hashrate allocation"?

12:05:15 fluffypony: it is in the best interest of larger mining pools to attack smaller ones, for the most part, and even to attack each other (as long as it isn't a matter of mutually assured destruction)

12:05:16 funkenstein_: i'm not saying game theory is bogus, but their analysis of the return based on the so-called attack

12:05:44 fluffypony: oh I haven't looked at their specific data, just what they were generally positing

12:06:40 funkenstein_: the "selfish mining" suggests that not broadcasting a found block could somehow help you

12:06:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70900 @ 0.00026742 = 18.9601 BTC [+] {4}

12:07:22 funkenstein_: the other one suggests that mining for a pool and throwing away found blocks could somehow help you

12:08:50 Adlai: it helps you by hurting your enemy worse than it hurts you, for certain ratios between your total available hashpower, your selfish-allocated-hashpower, and the hashpower under attack

12:10:34 funkenstein_: Adlai, their formulae are flawed.. they assume total network hashrate -m- is the same even though you are throwing away solved blocks

12:11:17 funkenstein_: also calling somebody an enemy and then hurting them is not rational behavior. looking at your collected BTC is rational behavior.

12:12:07 funkenstein_: throwing money away is hardly an "attack"

12:12:23 mircea_popescu: jurov you still need this ?

12:12:34 mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ i'd read it.

12:12:37 mircea_popescu: fluffypony how is it not ?

12:12:40 jurov: what?

12:13:02 mircea_popescu: jurov you highlighted me for withdrawals. you still need it ?

12:13:05 fluffypony: mircea_popescu: how is what not?

12:13:27 jurov: of course. and it's not me, but a coinbr client

12:13:28 mircea_popescu: dude am i the only one with a scrollback or something. how is the "nash equilibrium" stuff sensible.

12:13:29 funkenstein_: ok cool, I'll give it a shot :)

12:14:43 mircea_popescu: even leaving aside the rank nonsense of the particular "analysis". the concept that it is somehow game-theoretic feasible for a one-of-many arrangement to attack everyone is at least bizarre.

12:15:02 mircea_popescu: territoriality developed in living things for instance specifically to try and pierce this problem.

12:15:06 fluffypony: mining pools aren't laid out like that though

12:15:16 mircea_popescu: so model a case for me ?

12:15:22 fluffypony: they're super concentrated

12:15:39 fluffypony: two mining pools that control 25% of the hashrate each, mining pool A and B

12:15:43 mircea_popescu: so ? even if there's only two - the +ev outcome is collaboration not hostility.

12:16:08 mircea_popescu: which is the real risk here : if pools collaborate TOO MUCH we end up with usg 2.0

12:16:15 fluffypony: it is in A's best interest to setup a new pool, C, and then DDoS B so that C's % of the hashrate grows

12:16:53 mircea_popescu: unless there's actually C1...Cn and any of THEIR hash rate grows.

12:16:57 fluffypony: in fact, since the cost of starting and operating a pool is low, and they already have the technical know-how, they can setup a whole hoard of seemingly legitimate pools

12:17:08 fluffypony: and attack all the pools they don't want

12:17:11 mircea_popescu: no, because the cost is principally social.

12:17:27 mircea_popescu: you seem to go on this remnant of forum dumb where the technical costs are relevant in bitcoin. they are not.

12:17:40 mircea_popescu: the barrier to entry to making mpex is not "making the software". same for pools,

12:17:41 fluffypony: but we can't observe the social fabric

12:17:44 funkenstein_: they don't mention DDOS in the papers anyway

12:17:45 mircea_popescu: same for a wallet or anything.

12:17:54 mircea_popescu: fluffypony the fact we can't observe it doesn't allow us to value it at 0.

12:17:57 fluffypony: because the owner of pool A and pool B could be the same

12:18:05 fluffypony: and miners don't care who owns a pool

12:18:07 mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ we left aside the idiots in question and are discussing the theoretic theory.

12:18:11 fluffypony: just that it has low latency and is stable

12:18:15 funkenstein_: lol good move

12:18:21 mircea_popescu: miners care deeply who owns a pool.

12:18:28 mircea_popescu: which is why large miners make their own.

12:18:42 *: Adlai is genuinely curious to see whether funkenstein_'s criticism extends beyond "this behavior is not rational, for me and my rational friends"

12:18:54 mircea_popescu: small miners don't care, but this is universal - they don't care about anything, including rig safety.

12:19:34 mircea_popescu: jurov upon inspection seems it went out a while ago ?

12:19:50 Adlai: the observation which seems correct is that they don't account for the drop in difficulty caused by hashpower diverted towards attack... but i'm not certain that this lack of accounting is in their favor

12:20:28 mircea_popescu: which attack is this ?

12:21:15 Adlai: withholding valid blocks from competing pools

12:22:14 mircea_popescu: eh that's been done to death.

12:22:16 funkenstein_: the real equilibrium is to send zero of your miners off to throw their hash rate at nothing

12:22:21 mircea_popescu: the discussion i mean. there's srsly nothing there.

12:23:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54900 @ 0.00025801 = 14.1647 BTC [-]

12:23:01 Adlai: afaict, the only people who can credibly back up such a statement are pool operators

12:23:08 fluffypony: mircea_popescu: "miners care deeply who owns a pool" - we're getting into the realm of the anecdotal here, the mining farms I supply ASIC racks to don't care about the people running the pools they use at all, and they don't run their own

12:24:03 fluffypony: you may know some that do

12:24:12 *: mircea_popescu shrugs. derps in reddit care who said god hates faggots. yet people who actually have stuff riding on this don't care about stuff that matters. i dunno, seems rather anecdotal.

12:24:13 Adlai: and they can't credibly say "we're not withholding blocks from competing pools", only "our submitted shares are not suggestive of such an attack being performed against us"

12:24:31 mircea_popescu: Adlai the attack itself, as a model, does not work.

12:25:16 mircea_popescu: fluffypony if miners actually don't care, how do you explain 50btc/btcguild's demise after their collusion with gavin last year ?

12:25:17 jurov: mircea_popescu yes it did, nm

12:25:17 Adlai: it may indeed be a DoS on minds, withholding relevant problems by suggesting subtly irrelevant ones in their stead

12:25:28 mircea_popescu: i mean... they should still be here, riught ? they owned a year ago, right ? what happened ?

12:25:53 mircea_popescu: yet they're gone.

12:25:57 fluffypony: they're not talking about a situation like that

12:25:59 mircea_popescu: someone, somewhere, must have cared.

12:26:12 fluffypony: they're talking about a surreptitious attack where the attacker is not known

12:26:15 mircea_popescu: right. so people don't care unless they do ?

12:26:22 fluffypony: even though, in reality, it is a competing pool

12:26:25 mircea_popescu: right.

12:26:34 fluffypony: Pool A won't attack Pool B and then put out a blog post bragging about it

12:27:32 Adlai: and, miner C could be mining on pool A, and getting paid according to pool A's public stats, but actually be "working" on an attack against pool B

12:27:37 mircea_popescu: fluffypony let's see this. pool A has 25% of hash rate. pool B has 30% of hash rate. there's 45 other pools each with 1%.

12:27:43 mircea_popescu: now, pool A does the following :

12:28:01 mircea_popescu: 1. makes 500 new pools. complete with persuasive admins (1 per) who keep social media profiles etc.

12:28:12 mircea_popescu: 2. ddos' pool B. as if ddos is not actually a solved problem.

12:28:36 Adlai: ultimately funkenstein_'s article could consist entirely of a link to http://bitcoin.sipa.be/growth.png

12:28:36 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H7kVXW )

12:28:42 mircea_popescu: as a result of 1 and 2, 50% of people mining on B move, leaving it with 11% hash rate. the resulting 24% difference moves to pools, 90% of which are A's.

12:28:44 mircea_popescu: right ?

12:29:15 mircea_popescu: the cost of 1) is what, 100k ? 500k ? the cost of 2) is what, 100k ? 500k ? the benefit from the gained market share is... what ?

12:29:18 fluffypony: DDoS isn't a solved problem for Stratum, and especially not for mining where latency is of the utmost concern

12:29:20 mircea_popescu: wait, a pool makes virtually no money.

12:29:26 mircea_popescu: this attack makes 0 sense.

12:29:51 mircea_popescu: do you have any idea how long it'd take a pool (just that, nothing else) to make back 100 dollars after server costs ?

12:29:57 fluffypony: miners configure their mining setup with failover pools, but it failsover based on latency as well as a pool being unreachable

12:30:17 fluffypony: so all they have to do is inconvenience the pool and miners will failover

12:30:25 mircea_popescu: so

12:30:51 Adlai: why is ddos an issue here? this attack is not a ddos

12:30:57 mircea_popescu: Adlai the "withholding" thing is idiocy of prime order. it existe,d historically (ie, cca 2011) and was a problem for early pools. but it was SHARE withholding, not block withholding. it was fixed meanwhile.

12:31:12 fluffypony: also, as I understand it, we're talking about a future time when running a pool *is* more profitable than it is now

12:31:22 mircea_popescu: people became intellectually enamoured with it and keep spouting it everywhere, as a sort of cargo-cult bitcoin "knowledges"

12:31:49 mircea_popescu: fluffypony yes fluffs, in a game theoretic universe where cows are spherical and it rains glass, one could accidentally make a cow snowglobe.

12:32:07 *: fluffypony moooooos

12:32:32 mircea_popescu: and that's my point here : these are discussions of no substance used by reddit dorks to be discussing things.

12:32:55 mircea_popescu: bitcoin equivalent of "did leia really enjoy it" or w/e.

12:33:51 Adlai: the really funny bit from the (second) paper is "This would push miners to join private pools which can verify that their registered miners do not withhold blocks"

12:34:19 Adlai: the only way to _verify_ that your miners haven't withheld blocks, rather than trusting their word for it, is to check those nonces yourself

12:34:54 mircea_popescu: trivially solved with wot anyway.

12:35:02 Adlai: how?

12:35:29 mircea_popescu: because identity being expensive, it's no longer productive to attack.

12:35:31 Adlai: such an attack, properly executed, would be indistinguishable from bad luck

12:35:37 mircea_popescu: orly.

12:36:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82900 @ 0.00026878 = 22.2819 BTC [+] {3}

12:36:22 mircea_popescu: so i give you nonces 1-100 to hash , and fluffy nonces 101-200. and you report nothing found, and he reports nothing found. and then one day a block on nonce 76 is found and you are forever fucked.

12:37:06 Adlai: "one day"?

12:37:18 mircea_popescu: yes.

12:37:26 Adlai: a when the same merkle root shows up again?

12:37:31 Adlai: as you like to say - mkay.

12:37:39 mircea_popescu: or when i feel like testing some nonce blocks,.

12:37:59 mircea_popescu: which, after all, i can do.

12:38:01 Adlai: sure, but now we're back to http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-04-2015#1093692

12:38:01 assbot: Logged on 09-04-2015 12:34:19; Adlai: the only way to _verify_ that your miners haven't withheld blocks, rather than trusting their word for it, is to check those nonces yourself

12:38:25 mircea_popescu: but the problem is solved by a wot.

12:38:53 Adlai: addressed != solvedh

12:39:04 mircea_popescu: which is what this is : inexistent problems that don't exist being misunderstood as existing by people who don't understand how anything works, and then failing to see that even should they exist, the solution also exists.

12:40:18 mircea_popescu: the rub, of course, being the entire "oh but bitcoin is anonymous"

12:40:32 mircea_popescu: no it's not fucking anonymous. it's pseudonymous. different fucking things. identity still exists!

13:04:47 mats: http://tigress.cs.arizona.edu/challenges.html interesting.

13:04:49 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CYtod0 )

13:06:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75000 @ 0.00026894 = 20.1705 BTC [+]

13:06:56 mircea_popescu: http://www.hitfix.com/comedy/the-terrible-unspoken-implications-of-star-wars-slave-leia << muy butthurt.

13:06:58 assbot: The Terrible Unspoken Implications Of Star Wars Slave Leia ... ( http://bit.ly/1CYtJN0 )

13:07:12 mircea_popescu: fwiw, i had no idea leia is supposed to be anything BUT the slave chick.

13:09:00 mircea_popescu: dude with the article must have had some pretty odd searches in the past. my "google images" for princess leia consists of 20 hits of the woman wearing some sort of white overalls, with the 17th being her in actual atire.

13:14:27 mircea_popescu: ah, finally found the truely iconic max hardcore. http://38.media.tumblr.com/420b56522634f8c1627ed7a7cbbf8aa2/tumblr_nf7a5gTifT1tlw46uo1_500.gif

13:14:29 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CYvdXC )

13:15:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26750 @ 0.00026178 = 7.0026 BTC [-]

13:16:04 mircea_popescu: mats 100 bucks ? srsly ?

13:17:10 mats: heh. tacit admission that you can't buy this kinda time either way, imo.

13:17:58 mircea_popescu: "In order to encourage participation we would like to be able to award more substantial prizes. If you would like to donate to this cause, please contact us!"

13:18:07 mircea_popescu: yeah, herp, contact "us". who the fuck are us.

13:19:30 mircea_popescu: mats well, it's training, i gather. trainee pieces aren't either useful or valuable, per se. so you're not really "buying" anything.

13:32:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97350 @ 0.00026947 = 26.2329 BTC [+] {2}

13:49:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21400 @ 0.00026364 = 5.6419 BTC [-]

14:06:31 lobbes: re: withholding blocks. So basically, mircea_popescu, you are saying that anything gained from withholding said blocks would be outweighed by the potential destruction of one's reputation (which is expensive to build)?

14:06:34 lobbes: but to Adlai's point, could there not be one derp out there who 'withholds' enough until that 'one day' to make it worth it (in his eyes)?

14:06:48 lobbes: perhaps I am missing something

14:09:24 Adlai: if miners and pool operators choose to conduct such attacks against eachother (note that the attacks are against eachother, not against "bitcoin"), they can be fought... the attack becomes more expensive, and mining becomes more expensive, due to the defense

14:10:18 Adlai: with "the defense" taking some form such as a pool operator negrating a miner who has an unreasonable dropoff of share-finding luck just below the difficulty threshhold

14:10:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80950 @ 0.00027136 = 21.9666 BTC [+] {2}

14:12:38 lobbes: hmm, okay that makes sense

14:13:40 Adlai: this is expensive for the pool operator because he needs to send redundant work units to various miners, to get them checking eachother

14:17:22 lobbes: so the 'attacker' is disincentivized due to this rising cost, and the fact that 'statistically' he is being outed by not finding his shares at the expected rate (thus, reputation suffers)

14:21:16 danielpbarron: height=318707 vs height=222108

14:29:56 bitstein: https://www.stellar.org/blog/stellar-consensus-protocol-proof-code/ "I'm not dead yet!"

14:29:58 assbot: Stellar Consensus Protocol: Proof and Code - Stellar ... ( http://bit.ly/1CYIT4V )

14:30:13 bitstein: "Is the new system live? Not yet."

14:35:25 bitstein: Still cracks me up: "There are at least 177 instances in which ripple and stellar’s code matched up. In its haste to get its currency established, Stellar simply copied ripple’s open-source code but evidently its search-and-replace missed many instances where the code still says 'ripple.'" http://observer.com/2015/02/the-race-to-replace-bitcoin/

14:35:26 assbot: The Race to Replace Bitcoin | Observer ... ( http://bit.ly/1NeMXpD )

14:38:35 Chillum: my new computer is so quiet it seems like something is missing

14:40:57 mats: such incompetence. how hard is it to use sed?

14:41:07 lobbes: 'but evidently its search-and-replace missed many instances where the code still says 'ripple.' < l0l

14:46:26 Adlai: according to the papers' model: there is no incentive to be the first attacker, but there is incentive to be the Nth, N+1st, etc

14:46:43 Adlai: painting this picture of a mining commons on the brink of tragedy

14:46:55 Adlai: concern trolling in a fancy typeface

14:58:18 bitstein: At SXSW, I snuck into a Bitcoin 2.0 panel Jed McCaleb was on. During the Q&A I got up and asked, “Last December the Stellar blog had a post called ‘Safety, liveness and fault tolerance—the consensus choices’ that described how there was a fork in the ledger and subsequently, Stellar had essentially collapsed into a centralized system. Can you elaborate on what happened and why people should trust Stellar in its aftermath?” He

14:58:18 bitstein: gave a long answer describing the fork and giving lip service to this new consensus mechanism in the works, but failed to address the second part. So before they moved on, I followed up, “But right now, Stellar is a centralized system?” He begrudgingly responded, “It runs on one node, yes.” After my question they all went right on back to talking about how awful centralization is and how great the decentralized future is.

15:04:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22400 @ 0.00027201 = 6.093 BTC [+]

15:15:02 mats: i'm confused as to Kaminsky's role in all this

15:15:18 mats: conned or what? lent his name for a buck to some trash?

15:36:41 funkenstein_: did kaminsky do anything other than allow his name listed as technical advisor?

15:48:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75200 @ 0.00026971 = 20.2822 BTC [-] {2}

15:56:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00026797 = 4.0196 BTC [-]

16:07:36 mats: dunno.

16:07:44 mats: http://io.smashthestack.org/me

16:07:45 assbot: Intel ME huffman dictionaries - Unhuffme v2.3 ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gtitfo )

16:11:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58000 @ 0.00027252 = 15.8062 BTC [+]

16:22:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7200 @ 0.00026797 = 1.9294 BTC [-]

16:28:04 chetty: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2zh3ako&s=8

16:28:06 assbot: Image - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting ... ( http://bit.ly/1FFqsDk )

16:31:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34584 @ 0.00026507 = 9.1672 BTC [-]

16:32:04 ben_vulpes: huehuehuehu

16:43:57 []bot: Bet placed: 3.5 BTC for No on "Gold to drop under $1000 before August 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1131/ Odds: 11(Y):89(N) by coin, 13(Y):87(N) by weight. Total bet: 9.21237 BTC. Current weight: 82,570.

16:44:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86035 @ 0.00026076 = 22.4345 BTC [-] {3}

16:47:34 []bot: Bet placed: 2.166 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $150 before July" http://bitbet.us/bet/1133/ Odds: 14(Y):86(N) by coin, 15(Y):85(N) by weight. Total bet: 15.79172615 BTC. Current weight: 86,260.

17:23:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8417 @ 0.00025739 = 2.1665 BTC [-]

17:25:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 207700 @ 0.00025817 = 53.6219 BTC [+] {3}

17:38:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82813 @ 0.00025446 = 21.0726 BTC [-] {3}

17:47:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70600 @ 0.00024972 = 17.6302 BTC [-]

17:52:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55200 @ 0.00026507 = 14.6319 BTC [+]

17:54:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57200 @ 0.00026507 = 15.162 BTC [+]

17:59:31 mircea_popescu: lobbes no dude, i am saying about 50 other things.

17:59:45 mircea_popescu: model this attack and i'll show you one thin that's wrong with it enough to sink it.

17:59:59 mircea_popescu: i'm never going to be able to show you ALL the things that are wrong wqith it, being that it's nonsense.

18:00:31 mircea_popescu: you're like the guy going "so mp you're saying the perpetuum mobile could not exist because X ?" sure, x if you want it.

18:01:24 funkenstein_: http://vixra.org/abs/1504.0072 <-- my writeup from earlier convo

18:01:25 assbot: viXra.org e-Print archive, viXra:1504.0072, “The Majority is Enough” a Rebuttal of Two Proposed Vulnerabilities of Bitcoin Mining ... ( http://bit.ly/1aqXbRI )

18:02:10 mircea_popescu: bitstein the observer makes the valid code replace point, but STILL names its article "the race to replace bitcoin". as fucking if. "the race to waste imbecile capitalist money, the new hot valley term for what was once known as a venture capitalist" was radioactive or something.

18:02:31 mircea_popescu: <mats> such incompetence. how hard is it to use sed? << real muppets use excel.

18:02:45 mircea_popescu: <Adlai> concern trolling in a fancy typeface << word.

18:03:44 mircea_popescu: <mats> conned or what? lent his name for a buck to some trash? << intelligent people have a lot of trouble avoiding locklin's mistake.

18:04:16 mircea_popescu: da fuck is vixra.

18:04:42 funkenstein_: arxiv backwards

18:04:43 mircea_popescu: and im not reading a pdf. what the fuck funkenstein_ .

18:04:59 funkenstein_: lol i throw it on a blog then

18:05:05 mircea_popescu: dude...srsly. a walled garden/proprietary platform is bad in and of itself. it's not bad only if it becomes big.

18:05:16 mircea_popescu: the difference between this stupid diqus shit and just writing for gawker is 0.

18:06:24 mircea_popescu: own your content, AND EVERYTHING ABOUT IT. you don't need someone else deciding anything whatsoever. not what url to use. not when to "put up a warning page". not. ANYTHING.

18:06:47 funkenstein_: hmm i hadn't thought of it like that

18:07:03 mircea_popescu: you don't want me to think "hey that was a great piece, i wonder IF ARXIV ORG HAS MORE"

18:07:12 mircea_popescu: fuck them. you want me to tihnk "i wonder if you have more"

18:07:28 mircea_popescu: you know ellison ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE << watch this.

18:07:30 assbot: Harlan Ellison -- Pay the Writer - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1aqYKPA )

18:07:40 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

18:10:30 ascii_field: re: the whole pdf thing ...

18:10:41 ascii_field: it would help if there were actually a proper replacement for it.

18:10:58 ascii_field: (html plus jpegs are not one)

18:11:08 mircea_popescu: then people wonder about kaminsky. EXACT SAME THING. you lot have been so mentally stunted by the stupid welfare state, you do this sort of shit. "oh, i wonder if arxiv backwards . org paid funkenstein_ anything". no dude, they didn't, he's just silly like that. like everyone in that country.

18:11:22 mircea_popescu: ascii_field "replacement" in what sense ?

18:11:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35002 @ 0.00024832 = 8.6917 BTC [-]

18:12:23 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: in the sense of accurate and resolution-independent mapping to flattened dead tree

18:13:45 funkenstein_: ascii_field how about .ps

18:14:02 ascii_field: funkenstein_: pdf is more or less ps plus a bit of header

18:14:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24292 @ 0.00026686 = 6.4826 BTC [+] {2}

18:15:11 funkenstein_: mircea_popescu, their (arxiv / vixra) competion is journals that charge the author per page

18:20:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22800 @ 0.00024832 = 5.6617 BTC [-]

18:36:10 mircea_popescu: !up Guest63251

18:36:44 mircea_popescu: no dude, that's how *they hope to make money*. later on. once "we" and "contact us" have got enough of this fuzzy baseless trust made by appealing to a certain naivity of the intelligent.

18:37:09 mircea_popescu: "o look, they're hippy dippy cool and got cat pictures". what "they" ? and it's not THEIR fucking cat, either.

18:37:48 ascii_field: plankton filter feeders.

18:38:03 mircea_popescu: 'cause that's all they know, facebook model. pretend like "we" are interacting with the stakeholders but stay anonymous, and then if/when this gets big enough, assert a new identity and whoopdeedoo, claim you're worth a billion.

18:38:23 mircea_popescu: "because people follow us". well fuck you, back when YOU were anonymous, joe schmoe and lucy lue followed you. not "people".

18:38:50 mircea_popescu: now that you wish to be facebook inc, suddenly *they* gotta be you know "people", to take the place of the vague "we".

18:39:07 mircea_popescu: oldest scam in the book, this identity transfer. keep your identity, it's yours.

18:39:20 mircea_popescu: and for that matter, it's not only the most valuable thing you'll ever have - it's outright the only one.

18:39:26 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

18:40:00 mircea_popescu: ascii_field how about forget .ps which is fine, and .tex

18:41:02 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: aha lol 'tabletrons' etc. viewer gadgets expected to render .tex now ?

18:41:26 mircea_popescu: the failure of widgets is a problem of the widgetmaker. do not ask me to solve it till i market a widget.

18:41:28 ascii_field: and, to use gnu's terminology, .tex is often 'not the preferred format for modification' - as in, it is frequently machine-generated

18:41:39 mircea_popescu: ascii_field dude, pdf is not for modification either

18:41:43 mircea_popescu: you wanna modify it, use a txt

18:41:48 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: you are proposing equivalent of selling raw crude at the petrol station

18:42:00 mircea_popescu: pdfs are ALWAYS machine generate.d

18:42:04 mircea_popescu: what the fuck you wrote one by hand ?!

18:42:55 Chillum: Portable Defence Failure

18:42:57 ascii_field: .tex plus illustrations, whatever perl crud etc. was used to munge data into figures, possible latex preprocessing, etc. sometimes takes GB of ram and hour of fast cpu

18:43:08 ascii_field: at least for academic papers, or high res scans

18:43:14 ascii_field: to go to raster of given res, that is

18:43:34 mircea_popescu: so does pdf, in same conditions. except you gotta use either a windows bundle or else more perl crud munged together.

18:43:45 ascii_field: -to- pdf

18:43:56 mircea_popescu: right

18:44:24 ascii_field: but pointing out that asking printer or tablet makers to build machines which can swallow .tex is a nonstarter

18:44:41 mircea_popescu: every printer i ever saw ate tex wtf.

18:44:45 mircea_popescu: you mean like a desktop ?

18:44:55 ascii_field: -unprocessed- tex

18:45:20 ascii_field: this is quite like proposing that bitcoind be built -on- the pogo.

18:45:23 mircea_popescu: so because -unprocessed- pdf doesn't actually exist you figure this is an argument ?

18:45:26 ascii_field: at every boot.

18:46:13 ascii_field: i actually do not like pdf, for various reasons, some of which overlap with mircea_popescu's. i prefer a wavelet-compressed format, 'djvu'

18:46:33 ascii_field: but don't try to say 'you should like scrolling and pixellated graphics, forget about paper and author-specified pagination'

18:46:37 ascii_field: because fuck no.

18:46:52 mircea_popescu: i dunno im saying this.

18:47:19 ascii_field: the 'we want everything in www-readable plain text' concept sorta implies.

18:47:19 mircea_popescu: but fwiw, my experience as an actual author is that the html format is WAY better than the pdf format for the web, which is why fraudsters is not delivered in pdfs.

18:47:29 mircea_popescu: now, one's experience may vary, i've not printed a book in a decade,

18:47:44 mircea_popescu: but it still seems to me a narrow corner case notrly contemplated here.

18:48:08 ascii_field: www works fine for text and the occasional bitmap

18:48:55 ascii_field: but there are folks who read maths, or blueprints, or scanned historical documents.

18:50:08 mircea_popescu: actually fraudsters as-is works better for ALL of these than pdf.

18:50:21 ascii_field: wut

18:50:22 mircea_popescu: me being a folk who reads maths, and historeical documents. even the original blueprint.

18:51:19 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/come-see-me-dream-math/ ? or what part specifically ?

18:51:19 assbot: Come see me dream math. on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZznhI )

18:51:26 ascii_field: i insist on these to be either on a) paper b) device with dimensions and pixel density of paper, which i own - but in both cases - retaining the original pagination

18:51:30 ascii_field: and fucking -hate- scrolling

18:51:48 mircea_popescu: you hate scrolling ?

18:51:53 ascii_field: aha

18:52:00 mircea_popescu: yeah, well there it is.

18:52:16 mircea_popescu: i grant you, if you hate scrolling you'll have to engage in strange to compensate.

18:52:21 ascii_field: i like moving eyeballs in y as well as x axis

18:52:24 ascii_field: this is normal!

18:52:31 mircea_popescu: normal ?

18:52:45 ascii_field: x-only is like seeing life through a tank periscope

18:52:52 mircea_popescu: as in "what everyone does" normal or as in "what should be done" normative-normal ?

18:53:00 ascii_field: as in what the meat likes

18:53:04 ascii_field: because of how it was shaped

18:53:07 mircea_popescu: your meat knows ?

18:53:21 ascii_field: sorta like mircea_popescu's insistence on 1cm tall characters

18:53:27 ascii_field: the meat - otherwise rebells

18:53:30 mircea_popescu: do you also hate inequal pixel sizes ? like, you know, is your monitor square ?

18:53:38 ben_vulpes: yeah mircea_popescu how does your meat know that 1cm?

18:53:50 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: would love a square display with square pixels

18:53:57 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes at least my thing's consistent.

18:54:17 ben_vulpes: consistently arbitrary.

18:54:19 mircea_popescu: ascii_field but do you have one ?

18:54:25 ascii_field: nope

18:54:32 mircea_popescu: because if you don't, seems to me you're looking through that tank periscope anyway

18:54:41 mircea_popescu: given that people's horiz precision is what, 3x their vert precision.

18:54:45 mircea_popescu: also ... normal.

18:55:11 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: what i do have is 4 lcd laid out in such a way as to fill my field of vision

18:55:18 ascii_field: so no, no periscope.

18:55:21 mircea_popescu: lol.

18:55:33 mircea_popescu: but the pixels themselves! every inch is 100 sideways and 40 vertically.

18:55:52 ascii_field: though out here i am in a 'tank', yes

18:57:08 mircea_popescu: anyway. i don't hate scrolling. i hate the situation where my field is fixed.

18:57:17 mircea_popescu: scrolling provides a hook into endlessness.

18:57:19 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: the shape of the pixels is considerably less interesting if you have ones sufficiently small to enable affine transforms of whatever kind you like, without visible distortion

18:57:22 mircea_popescu: and it's how i get through a million words a day.

18:57:58 mircea_popescu: ascii_field you're eliding the point. the fact that your misshapen pixels allow you to not see the distortion means your meat is made to look through a tank periscope in the first place.

18:58:28 mircea_popescu: if it weren't, the square eye wouldn't put 3x more focus on horiz than it puts on vert sync.

18:58:31 ascii_field: i suppose you could also say that i scroll, but simply prefer to do it with eyes rather than fingers

18:59:07 mircea_popescu: ascii_field the problem is that you always have a finite workspace.

18:59:30 ascii_field: re: pagination - author-controlled pagination, i find, is often valuable information

18:59:43 mircea_popescu: i find the very concept of "page" retarded.

18:59:48 ascii_field: think of every time you have to wiggle the y axis to fit a figure on the display

19:00:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27900 @ 0.00025643 = 7.1544 BTC [+]

19:04:46 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: i find reading anything - other than plain text - not designed with a particular viewport geometry in mind - physically painful.

19:05:08 ascii_field: like an ill-fitting set of clothing

19:05:15 ascii_field: designed for no particular body

19:05:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29500 @ 0.00027062 = 7.9833 BTC [+]

19:05:40 mircea_popescu: well don't look at the sky then.

19:06:01 *: ascii_field does not often read the sky

19:06:17 mircea_popescu: for this reason ?

19:06:35 mircea_popescu: and is your underwear bespoke ?

19:06:38 ascii_field: no, because not much of an astronomer these days

19:06:52 mircea_popescu: it'd seem to me it'd be more painful to have panties made for no particular cock than you know, a shirt.

19:06:53 ascii_field: underwear << i would if i could (TM)

19:07:16 mircea_popescu: well... my tailor here'd prolly do it. it'd be weird as all fuck... but hey.

19:07:31 mircea_popescu: it never occured to me to ask for tailored undies.

19:07:58 *: ascii_field would wear tailored fucking socks if he could

19:08:24 mircea_popescu: i srsly couldn't be bothered.

19:08:55 ascii_field: tailors ought to use 3d scanner, imho

19:08:58 ascii_field: but afaik none do

19:09:05 ascii_field: then again what do i know of tailors

19:09:07 mircea_popescu: stupid idea.

19:09:10 ascii_field: less than i know of surgeons

19:09:16 mircea_popescu: tailor tailors for the body, it's sinnewy depths, not for the skinshape.

19:09:32 mircea_popescu: you'd have to sonar it.

19:09:36 ascii_field: so then.

19:09:37 ascii_field: sonar.

19:09:48 mircea_popescu: assbot disapproves.

19:09:49 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

19:09:53 ascii_field: l0l

19:09:54 ascii_field: hell, nmr it

19:10:41 mircea_popescu: yeah, so instead of one very competent craftsman,

19:10:51 mircea_popescu: have a bunch of techs and mandatory clothing insurance.

19:11:31 ascii_field: l0l!

19:12:11 ascii_field: !s tuba compressor

19:12:12 assbot: 2 results for 'tuba compressor' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=tuba+compressor

19:14:47 ascii_field: re: socks: i am reminded of dan mocsny's piece on how very few people can give honest answer to the question of whether they want, e.g., a harem - because they don't have the option in menu

19:15:08 ascii_field: perhaps i -wouldn't- wear tailored socks, in practice

19:15:11 mircea_popescu: "option" ? in "menu" ?!

19:15:20 mircea_popescu: yeah, you wouldn't.

19:15:54 ascii_field: but recall the thirsty man in the desert who 'could drink a river'

19:17:38 mircea_popescu: myeah.

19:17:47 mircea_popescu: anyway, who the fuck gets women off a menu

19:18:11 mircea_popescu: you know the harem is not like, a block of cheese. it's an abstract name given to a complex social reality.

19:18:20 chetty: ascii_field, also know as can't think outside the box

19:18:40 mircea_popescu: like you know, "an empire". yes the empire may sink, but usually not in water.

19:19:12 ascii_field: chetty: not that one cannot use imagination. but it is folly to say 'i would not want atomic dirigible' unless that choice is actually there, like the decision of whether to buy a laser printer

19:19:24 mircea_popescu: chetty lol @those tomatoes.

19:20:06 mircea_popescu: ascii_field note that i wasn't commenting on whether i or anyone else would or not would want x. merely on how much sense x makes, given other things.

19:20:10 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: who the fuck gets women off a menu << the fella with an already-assembled harem, such as mircea_popescu ?

19:20:15 mircea_popescu: maybe you want an ak with a curved barrel, for all i care.

19:20:21 mircea_popescu: ascii_field mno.

19:20:42 ascii_field: ak with a curved barrel << krummlauf !

19:20:48 mircea_popescu: yeah the nazis had something

19:20:53 mircea_popescu: stupid idea, but hey, they did have it.

19:20:57 ascii_field: ultra-famous

19:21:10 ascii_field: and not obviously a bad idea under the circumstances

19:21:16 mircea_popescu: exactly.

19:21:25 mircea_popescu: obviously a bad idea, just not in their circumstances.

19:21:44 mircea_popescu: "this is the sort of item you only ever want because you fucked something else up"

19:21:47 mircea_popescu: widely seen in computing.

19:21:54 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 369 @ 0.01000002 = 3.69 BTC [-] {2}

19:21:55 ascii_field: !s alien problem

19:21:56 assbot: 2 results for 'alien problem' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=alien+problem

19:22:19 mircea_popescu: and where's that pic nubbins put in, with the "you do not want an adaptor, you think you do becaus you fucked up the light arrangement"

19:22:34 ascii_field: the mains cords, aha

19:22:38 mircea_popescu: myeah.

19:23:31 ascii_field: (iirc britain had a periscopic rifle sight/trigger stick in ww1, for roughly same problem)

19:31:34 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3NeAZG_tgI << this guy is such a ho.

19:31:35 assbot: Author and Screenwriter Harlan Ellison Rants about Youth and Publishing - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8t6mY )

19:33:06 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: ellison is interesting for another reason. he is the undisputed emperor of 'wrote a few good stories in the '50s, famous for nothing in particular since'; loudly rants demanding eternal copyright because 'creaaaatorz have riiiiiightz!!111!!'

19:33:20 mircea_popescu: remind me, what's his relation to scientologee ?

19:33:26 ascii_field: mark halperin is another

19:34:27 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: supposedly ellison witnessed the legendary bet b/w heinlein and hubbard. but afaik that's all..

19:34:28 mircea_popescu: kinda goes with the woman's complaints about the what was it, hugo award ?

19:35:14 mircea_popescu: i recall when i was a kid, some of the first books printed in shiny covers etc were various sf works, which is how i even ended up owning some (ender's game, dune, other americas, crap like that) - they looked good.

19:35:21 mircea_popescu: and they all sported various awards, nebula, hugo, whatever.

19:35:24 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: that was more of a 'how dare they make an upvote ring, that's -ours- to do'

19:35:40 mircea_popescu: i was suspicious at the time. had an argument with other teens, with me going "that's prolly just some shit they made up for the cover"

19:35:57 mircea_popescu: was a big scandal in the tiny cup. evnetually tho... lo! i am vindicated.

19:36:47 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: hugo is voted on, iirc, by folks who go to (or at least buy ticket to...) 'worldcon' - an sf event attended mainly by writers (in practice, the wannabees i spoke of earlier)

19:37:05 mircea_popescu: this doesn't qualify it for "some shit they made up for the cover" ?

19:37:44 ascii_field: it was made up long ago, when the american writers all knew one another

19:38:24 mircea_popescu: right. it's basically if they start putting on "as seen in bash.bitcoin-assets.org" on shit long after we all left.

19:38:36 mircea_popescu: dude... it was a joke when we made it.

19:38:49 ascii_field: sorta like that

19:39:20 mircea_popescu: naggum's point re fields applies eminently.

19:39:34 chetty: http://www.mercurynews.com/opinion/ci_27879687/victor-davis-hanson-modern-american-universities-are-failing

19:39:35 assbot: Victor Davis Hanson: Modern American universities are failing on four counts - San Jose Mercury News ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8u7eU )

19:39:35 mircea_popescu: sf in the 50s was a spare cycle endeavour of the people who at the time didn't have bbs yet.

19:40:06 chetty: my amazement on where that got published

19:40:35 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

19:40:42 mircea_popescu: chetty what's mercurynews ?

19:40:50 ascii_field: 'Colleges need to publicize the employment rates of recent graduates and the percentage of students who complete their degrees so that strapped parents can do cost-benefit analyses like they do with any other major cash investment.' << anyone recall the law school debacle ?

19:41:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 262594 @ 0.000272 = 71.4256 BTC [+] {6}

19:41:22 ascii_field: (a great many - published such figures; turned out, to no one's surprise, fabricated wholesale; then somehow entire brouhaha magicked away )

19:41:32 chetty: well its San Jose, the heart of soicalism country

19:42:12 mircea_popescu: ascii_field nobody goes to jail for THAT kinda fraud right ?

19:42:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46359 @ 0.00026574 = 12.3194 BTC [-] {2}

19:42:20 mircea_popescu: fraud that makes the consumer "consume" is a-ok

19:43:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27500 @ 0.00025544 = 7.0246 BTC [-]

19:43:16 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: not only this, but feeds the academic mandarin class

19:43:58 ascii_field: who get to not only avoid starvation but live like civilized people (naturally, referring to the winners in the tournament market, not the chinese grad students here)

19:44:08 ascii_field: regardless of whatever result metric

19:44:22 ascii_field: because they, approximately, hold 'title of nobility' in usa.

19:45:16 ascii_field: performance metrics, in usa, are for the worker bees.

19:45:56 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9AGVARpqdk << btw, re why is he famous etc.

19:45:58 assbot: Harlan Ellison & Robin Williams discuss LRH - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8uQfW )

19:47:52 *: ascii_field recalls the eternal 'the late cooper's daughter, in her december.. why was the famous? who could remember?'

19:48:27 mircea_popescu: heh. he never shat a plum.

19:49:06 ascii_field: (for those who missed, http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=1181853joe_sacco_buffoons_tale.png << megaclassic)

19:49:07 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8v7zy )

19:49:26 ascii_field: but no, ellison only shat a few basic prunes.

19:49:38 ascii_field: but was 'friends with them all' and ended up in the usa sf wot.

19:49:47 mircea_popescu: in other news, is Casey McKinnon really a man ?

19:50:09 ascii_field: wut

19:50:42 mircea_popescu: some canadian chick.

19:51:09 ascii_field: http://www.caseymckinnon.com << that one ?

19:51:10 assbot: Casey McKinnon ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8vnP2 )

19:52:15 mircea_popescu: yea

19:52:22 ascii_field: sooner i am a dog.

19:53:57 mircea_popescu: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Casey_McKinnon.jpg ?

19:53:58 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8vI49 )

19:54:14 mircea_popescu: really fucking weird face.

19:54:31 *: ascii_field does not see what is odd here

19:55:04 mircea_popescu: anyway, back to ellison, guy apparently wrote a shitton. i suppose it's mostly that we don't give a shit about their pulpy universes.

19:55:09 ascii_field: he did

19:55:14 ascii_field: i happen to own a copy of most of it

19:55:15 mircea_popescu: which makes it seem like he did nothing.

19:55:22 mircea_popescu: o, really ?

19:55:27 ascii_field: the bulk - is quite unreadable

19:55:51 ascii_field: he was, imho, of a particular school of writing where threw shit at a wall hoping that some would stick

19:55:56 ascii_field: possibly with the help of lsd etc

19:55:59 ascii_field: some - did stick

19:56:09 ascii_field: but he persisted in letting his snr fall, fall...

19:56:16 mircea_popescu: i think they all did that, in the olden penny a word days

19:56:27 ascii_field: some with more lsd, some with less

19:56:38 mircea_popescu: "readers" meant "people more than willing to root through the shit, because literacy is new and printing only last year became affordable"

19:57:04 mircea_popescu: his nostalgia is misplaced. the first time they came up with synthetic fibers people wore them out of pride. "look at me, i am one of those withthe industry"

19:57:20 mircea_popescu: as they cheapened and broadened they took their proper place. not because "there aren't real wearers anymore"

19:57:24 mircea_popescu: but because they always sucked.

19:57:42 mircea_popescu: pulp was never literature. it seemed like it, because of the nonsenser that was early 19th century new york.

19:57:43 ascii_field: at any rate, you will find that folks obsessed with 'eternal copyright' etc. are invariably 'smallinteger-hit wonders'

19:57:52 mircea_popescu: obviosuly.

19:58:12 ascii_field: 'my fucking lottery ticket should be worth $infinity'

19:58:23 mircea_popescu: nah, not what's going on there imo.

19:58:30 mircea_popescu: more like "i have so little, please don't make it less."

19:59:09 mircea_popescu: it's something like this : http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb0lugmnZ51rhtlogo1_400.gif

19:59:12 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8wq1A )

20:02:21 ascii_field: another 'why is he famous?!' fella who goes on, and on, and on... about 'eternal copyright now!111!1' is jaron lanier

20:02:31 mircea_popescu: this one i never heard of.

20:02:38 ascii_field: !s lanier

20:02:39 assbot: 10 results for 'lanier' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=lanier

20:03:00 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=11-01-2015#973195

20:03:00 assbot: Logged on 11-01-2015 17:38:08; mircea_popescu: "Jaron Lanier is one of the world?s great polymaths. He?s a computer scientist, composer, visual artist, and the author of a new book, Who Owns the Future?, published last month "

20:03:01 mircea_popescu: lolok.

20:03:03 ascii_field: i mentioned him at least once as specifically an example of a particularly vile species sometimes called 'digerati'

20:03:45 mats: i had the worst day

20:03:56 mats: working for idiots is awful

20:04:04 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jYT6WgNFFE << check it out, back when they had to hold up the mics, still raving about 1984 and orwellian society.

20:04:06 assbot: 1984 Orwells Warning With Harlan Ellison - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1abhDFS )

20:04:08 mircea_popescu: mats o ya ? what happened ?

20:05:02 mats: my manager dicked around on a server and threw me under the bus when he fucked up

20:05:46 mircea_popescu: heh.

20:06:35 mats: motd says DO NOT USE RM UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING

20:06:59 mircea_popescu: so walk, what.

20:07:59 ascii_field: not walk. fly, on atomic dirigible

20:08:36 mircea_popescu: he doesn't sound old enough to need a job, that doesn't sound like a job good enough to want, etc.

20:09:01 mats: gotta eat.

20:09:09 *: ascii_field does not, afaik, know anyone in local meatspace who 'doesn't need a job'

20:09:27 ascii_field: it isn't strictly an age thing, beyond a certain point

20:10:24 mircea_popescu: mats so walk next time.

20:10:50 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

20:11:02 mircea_popescu: doesn't sound like you'll face a dearth of opportunities.

20:11:58 mats: after i clean this up imma start looking, but, i'm still 'entry level' as far as years-employed goes

20:12:20 mircea_popescu: fuck that. why would you ever take a standard that disadvantages you ?

20:12:26 mircea_popescu: when you're young, you only talk in performance terms.

20:12:32 mircea_popescu: when you're old it's time for "years employed" metrics.

20:12:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75250 @ 0.00024999 = 18.8117 BTC [-] {3}

20:12:51 mircea_popescu: you never, ever, no matter what happens, accept a metric that puts you behind.

20:13:07 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: now you know why i'm in my mousetrap.

20:13:09 mircea_popescu: that's to be done with your teachers, not with the fucking employers.

20:13:16 mircea_popescu: ascii_field no ?

20:13:46 ascii_field: can't speak for mats, but basic idea is that once you leave your meatwot, you are a fungible machine. this is a situation that, as mats put it, 'resets you to entry level' - and overwhelmingly favours the very young

20:13:46 mats: as you know, a proper master is rare...

20:14:40 mircea_popescu: ascii_field nominally. not factually.

20:15:20 ascii_field: there is not so much employment in the world for the 'naggum' variety of engineer. and one hundred percent of it is built on meat wots, years-long personal relationships and 'ins'.

20:15:46 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 597 @ 0.00259003 = 1.5462 BTC [-] {8}

20:16:17 ascii_field: step outside of this, and you are fighting with the monkeys for monkey food.

20:16:30 ascii_field: ('www dev' etc.)

20:16:47 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1000 @ 0.002575 = 2.575 BTC [-] {2}

20:17:53 ascii_field: one very important fact is that a 'naggum' - if he is the genuine article - is a -destroyer- of jobs for his own kind, rather than creator thereof

20:19:00 ascii_field: one could argue that this is not true, and that 'there is still as much work for systems engineers today as in '70 - because nothing really works' - but 'as much work' does not mean 'as much employment'

20:19:40 mircea_popescu: i really don't agree with any of these.

20:20:43 ascii_field: hm?

20:20:57 ben_vulpes: "more work" << obligatory: http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/Invention_of_Cplusplus.shtml

20:20:58 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8zxXg )

20:21:26 mircea_popescu: ascii_field you propose that if you were taken to a jungle, you would have trouble exterminating monkeys ?

20:21:42 mircea_popescu: on what is this you-them difference predicated then ?

20:21:49 mircea_popescu: aesthetic considerations ? skin tone ?

20:21:58 ascii_field: why stop at monkeys

20:22:05 mircea_popescu: your term.

20:22:07 ascii_field: one man in the field would likely fall to sufficient cockroaches

20:22:14 mircea_popescu: uh...

20:22:15 ascii_field: what then is the difference between he and they

20:22:28 mircea_popescu: wait, no man was ever killed by cockroaches. what are you on about ?

20:23:14 ascii_field: probably would make more sense with ants.

20:23:25 ascii_field: plenty killed by ants.

20:23:48 ascii_field: granted, usually 'played with handicap'

20:24:18 ascii_field: but the crashed pilot in the jungle likewise plays with handicap vs beasts which grew up there.

20:24:19 mircea_popescu: you know, the shapeshifting amoebic consistency of your position suggests to me that you'd rather it weren't discussed after all. which is it ?

20:24:37 ascii_field: here i don't have a position as such, only observations

20:24:43 mircea_popescu: mkay.

20:25:24 ascii_field: these observations are based 'in my light cone' naturally.

20:26:23 ascii_field: speaking of exterminating monkeys, recall the thread with the strength of pan troglodytis ?

20:33:20 mircea_popescu: you'd obviously avoid pissing them off and snipe them

20:33:42 ascii_field: while the rifle has rounds - yes.

20:34:08 mircea_popescu: i didn't say rifle.

20:34:28 mircea_popescu: firesharpened sticks, what.

20:34:51 ascii_field: the point, which i evidently failed to get across, is that the man vs chimp contest requires the man to at least get a chance to sharpen a stick, in order to use his advantage over the beast

20:35:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48845 @ 0.00024411 = 11.9236 BTC [-] {2}

20:35:09 ascii_field: put the two together bare-handed - chimp will tear off limbs and rape the corpse

20:35:17 ascii_field: does not matter how clever was the man

20:35:27 mircea_popescu: the other point, which for some reason you don't seem inclined to appreciate, is that if the difference between man and beast doesn't exist, then the nominal difference is spurious.

20:35:32 mircea_popescu: so just say "a monkey among monkeys"

20:35:49 ascii_field: if only

20:35:53 ascii_field: man makes a terrible chimp

20:36:00 ascii_field: this is why the zoologist gets eaten every time

20:36:04 ascii_field: if he visits enough

20:36:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86327 @ 0.0002417 = 20.8652 BTC [-]

20:36:12 mircea_popescu: i dunno.

20:36:20 mircea_popescu: i never met an eaten antrhopologist.

20:36:27 mircea_popescu: (zoologists usually stick to amoebae)

20:36:34 ascii_field: iirc there is a hypothesis that it is why they attack - he fails to respond to some important chimp gesture of dom/sub protocol handshake

20:38:16 ascii_field: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/29/jane-goodall-institute-chimpanzee-eden_n_1636798.html? << just one randomly selected example

20:38:18 assbot: Jane Goodall Institute Chimpanzee Eden Attack Leaves American With 'Multiple And Severe Bite Wounds' ... ( http://bit.ly/1H8Bx1M )

20:38:59 mircea_popescu: this was in a cage ?

20:39:03 ascii_field: nope

20:39:20 ascii_field: or, hm

20:39:34 ascii_field: 'when two chimpanzees grabbed his feet and pulled him under a fence into their enclosure...'

20:39:41 mircea_popescu: "Andrew F. Oberle was giving a lecture to a group of tourists at the Chimp Eden sanctuary on Thursday when two chimpanzees grabbed his feet and pulled him under a fence into their enclosure, said Jeffrey Wicks of the Netcare911 emergency services company."

20:39:42 mircea_popescu: dude come on.

20:40:38 ascii_field: what is surprising? the thing has roughly 5x the strength of a man, per gram of muscle.

20:40:58 mircea_popescu: what is surprising is that you're passing off chimps in a zoo for chimps in the wild,

20:41:04 ascii_field: tears man like paper. like hydraulic pistons of bulldozer.

20:41:16 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

20:41:29 mircea_popescu: and generally that this conversation keeps sliding towards less and less related stuff.

20:41:54 ascii_field: (i very clearly recall incident of specialist who dealt with chimps in the wild, getting 'chimped' after many uneventful years. but lost the link.)

20:42:30 ascii_field: to get back to original point, that i attempted to make, - division of labour exists, and not everyone is a universal and reshapeable everything.

20:42:31 *: BingoBoingo recalls suprise at mircea_popescu's default chimp being the blowjob species

20:42:40 mircea_popescu: why ?

20:43:03 mircea_popescu: ascii_field well, anything may happen, sure.

20:43:21 mircea_popescu: similarly, shopper got shot in muggery after many years of safe shopping.

20:43:45 ascii_field: this is more of a 'that day was suddenly torn limb from limb by the other shoppers' thing

20:43:46 ascii_field: iirc

20:44:00 mircea_popescu: ascii_field the difference between smart and stupid is that smart can be stupid, but stupid can't be smart. that's it.

20:44:13 mircea_popescu: if this condition is not satisfied, you're looking at mere kinds of stupid.

20:44:44 ascii_field: not sure if this will make sense, but living as a stupid -social- organism takes a lifetime of practice.

20:44:55 ascii_field: consider organic vs congenital brain damage

20:45:01 mircea_popescu: your liking it is not in discussion.

20:45:17 ascii_field: not liking per se, but sustainably (without external feeding) functioning.

20:45:37 mircea_popescu: so you're telling me you couldn't flunk tests. because it's "in your nature" to pass them.

20:45:49 mircea_popescu: can you see how this would essentially be socialist ideology ?

20:45:58 mircea_popescu: "no need to pay creators for creating - it's what they do"

20:46:13 ascii_field: could quite easily flunk tests. could not convincingly worm into the company of folks who grew up doing so.

20:46:19 mircea_popescu: why not ?

20:47:03 ascii_field: didn't grow up drinking their swill, speaking their hundred-word language, watching their sporting crud, etc.

20:47:11 mircea_popescu: so ?

20:47:26 mircea_popescu: not like it's hard.

20:47:43 ascii_field: mircea_popescu could convince an eskimo that he is an eskimo ?

20:47:48 ascii_field: if not, why not ?

20:47:52 mircea_popescu: surely.

20:48:10 mircea_popescu: and if i couldn't that failure'd score pretty high up on the priority board.

20:48:12 *: ascii_field takes off hat, does not know anyone else who would dare to attempt it.

20:48:59 mircea_popescu: im a tall lanky white eskimo from romania. problem ?

20:49:04 ascii_field: l0l

20:49:10 ascii_field: 'stop sending the blacks' (TM)

20:49:40 *: ascii_field recalls how richard sorge, perhaps greatest spy who ever lived, still stuck to impersonating a german - rather than japanese - official, while in jp

20:50:06 mircea_popescu: nevertheless.

20:51:06 mircea_popescu: speaking of spies, i was kinda surpriosed to see news item linked yesterday casually point out the deep reason for why exactly us gaver up on actual humint to focus on mostl pointless sigint

20:51:18 mircea_popescu: "we can't afford to train and then to lose the agents what with these new techniques"

20:51:24 mircea_popescu: i thought that wasn't mentionable.

20:51:47 ascii_field: mentionable, like everything else, so long as the context is sufficiently obfuscated (or can be presumed to be unknown to the chumps)

20:51:55 mircea_popescu: aha.

20:52:07 ascii_field: just like the other tidbit from yesterday, re: the arctic exercises.

20:53:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47650 @ 0.00025471 = 12.1369 BTC [+]

20:53:52 ascii_field: and before we say 'the americans and their wasted effort on pointless sigint' - let's recall how they set up a whole planet as chumpers who can't access a sane computing system at any price...

20:54:51 ascii_field: (pedants will answer 'desinfo ain't sigint' but in usa they are presided over by the same people)

20:54:53 mircea_popescu: the planet needed no help with that.

20:55:03 mircea_popescu: let's not credit passing swallows for rain shall we.

20:55:32 mircea_popescu: next you're going to tell me growing autism is the intentional effect of tradecraft.

20:55:50 ascii_field: the sparrow may not be to blame for the spring, but the matter of the birdshit on statue - another.

20:56:10 mircea_popescu: looky here : nothing works unless individuals sovereign over them.

20:56:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00025471 = 7.6413 BTC [+]

20:56:27 mircea_popescu: the car is functional today to the degree that it is functional for this reason.

20:56:40 mircea_popescu: ic had no such luck. you could say shockley made a bad king.

20:57:12 mircea_popescu: rocketry exists because of that nazi us citizen, not because of any government, or other group of people. and on and on.

20:57:24 ascii_field: aha.

20:57:37 mircea_popescu: there's always going to be fields with and fields without the luck.

20:57:43 mircea_popescu: this - spring.

20:58:26 mircea_popescu: (and before anyone wants to argue re ford : the man pissed on a field of patents, ignored the law and basically ordered anyone messing with his stuff murdered.)

20:58:36 ascii_field: ^ ditto edison

20:58:39 mircea_popescu: for that matter - electricity had a bad king, and it still sucks to this day, as discussed yest

20:58:43 ascii_field: who in fact invented modern patent trollage

20:58:49 mircea_popescu: granted, not as bad as shockley.

21:00:17 mircea_popescu: people, if left to do what threy will, will just make piles of shit. it's what people do.

21:00:41 ascii_field: except for the ones who won't

21:01:03 ascii_field: (paulgraham, pre-braindamage, called the difference 'good taste' but not sure if this is descriptive)

21:01:36 mircea_popescu: "people" in the collective.

21:01:45 ascii_field: then trivially yes.

21:01:51 Adlai: pg: "hackers, like painters, both make things" rando troll: "so do chickens"

21:02:00 mircea_popescu: it may be good taste, but it more likely is a firm decision to burn anything and everything until it either behaves or goes away.

21:02:16 ascii_field: ^ that -is- good taste

21:02:21 mircea_popescu: well ok then.

21:02:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26900 @ 0.00025471 = 6.8517 BTC [+]

21:03:25 mircea_popescu: anyway : the people who never burn anyone elementarily fail at this.

21:03:56 mircea_popescu: kinda how it only takes a moment;s survey to reealise a field/group/whatever will never amount to anything worth the mention.

21:11:36 mircea_popescu: ascii_field hey, we discussed last year this guy that was really butthurt about some professor stealing his invention ? up in canada ? something to do with mathematica maybe ?

21:12:08 mircea_popescu: heh.

21:12:10 mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field

21:12:52 ascii_field: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/sci.math/t7Szo6EFZvc << this ?

21:12:54 assbot: Google Discussiegroepen ... ( http://bit.ly/1IOG8Et )

21:13:22 ascii_field: wolfram is a u.s.-based fella though

21:13:42 ascii_field: !s wolfram

21:13:43 assbot: 43 results for 'wolfram' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=wolfram

21:14:06 mircea_popescu: aha

21:14:09 ascii_field: he later backed down, paper was printed, there were no lawsuits, iirc.

21:14:16 mircea_popescu: that, but im not linking google groups.

21:14:18 ascii_field: but much anger to this day.

21:14:33 ascii_field: http://bactra.org/reviews/wolfram

21:14:34 assbot: Stephen Wolfram, A New Kind of Science ... ( http://bit.ly/1IOGpHJ )

21:14:37 ascii_field: ^ canonical

21:15:07 ascii_field: particularly,

21:15:10 ascii_field: 'The real problem with this result, however, is that it is not Wolfram's. He didn't invent cyclic tag systems, and he didn't come up with the incredibly intricate construction needed to implement them in Rule 110. This was done rather by one Matthew Cook, while working in Wolfram's employ under a contract with some truly remarkable provisions about intellectual property. In short, Wolfram got to control not only when and

21:15:10 ascii_field: how the result was made public, but to claim it for himself. In fact, his position was that the existence of the result was a trade secret. ...'

21:16:09 ascii_field: 'Wolfram, for his part, responded by suing or threatening to sue Cook (now a penniless graduate student in neuroscience), the conference organizers, the publishers of the proceedings, etc. '

21:17:08 mircea_popescu: heh

21:17:14 ascii_field: wolfram is sui generis. owns a tame publisher, for instance

21:17:32 ascii_field: that prints his 'great insights' and those of his user base

21:17:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6241 @ 0.00025471 = 1.5896 BTC [+]

21:17:49 mircea_popescu: that really is not hard to do.

21:17:54 mircea_popescu: pod and so on

21:18:01 ascii_field: to my great shame, i pumped thousands and thousands of usd into wolfram's pockets.

21:19:01 ascii_field: mircea_popescu: it isn't an on-demand print, either

21:19:12 ascii_field: 'top shelf' lithography and typography

21:20:05 ascii_field: the man is a crank who grew up as 'next big physics mind' who ended up coming to nothing. but turned out that he was good at harnessing other folks to pull his imperial cart.

21:20:08 mircea_popescu: also not THAT expensive these days

21:20:16 ascii_field: so he ended up as a mad king of a small kingdom of sorts

21:20:24 mircea_popescu: lots of these, it turns out.

21:20:37 ascii_field: 'mathematica' has competitors in the exactly same sense that mpex does.

21:20:43 ascii_field: to this day.

21:20:48 mircea_popescu: apparently everyone who's not proud to work for corporate america a la buffett is busy trying to carve a small kingdom of flies type of arrangement

21:21:01 mircea_popescu: from the idiots trying to get "real estate developments" on arid hills in south america

21:21:06 ascii_field: buffett has kingdom. well, had. it was conquered meanwhile

21:21:09 ascii_field: as i understand

21:21:14 mircea_popescu: to derps making "submarines" because hey, can't just admit bitcoin has it and humbly join.

21:21:18 *: ascii_field has not yet read all of the man's writings

21:21:54 ascii_field: anyway, i happen to know more than a reasonable man ought to, about wolframism

21:22:24 ascii_field: what he did was, essentially, steal a usg mega-product - macsyma, the first really universal computer algebra system, thousands of man-years of

21:22:31 ascii_field: a certain lisp

21:22:43 ascii_field: and hired some folks to cough up a gui for it

21:22:45 ascii_field: and marketed

21:23:01 ascii_field: he also had it delisped

21:23:09 ascii_field: so that 'serial number is filed off', so to speak

21:23:29 ascii_field: and would not be bound by the (iirc murky) legal status of the stolen original

21:23:46 ascii_field: (gpl did not yet exist, and ianal, but the story is complicated - it -was- taxpayer-funded research)

21:24:38 ascii_field: http://www.ymeme.com/why-wolfram-%28mathematica%29-did-not-use-lisp.html << some detail of what

21:24:39 assbot: Why Wolfram (Mathematica) did not use Lisp | The (λ) Lambda meme - all things Lisp ... ( http://bit.ly/1IOId3d )

21:25:19 ascii_field: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20141104/NEWS04/141109944/mathematicas-wolfram-sued-accused-of-secretly-recording-calls << l0l! apparently he's still sc4mz0r1ng folks

21:25:20 assbot: Subscription Center | ChicagoBusiness.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1IOIhQC )

21:25:51 ascii_field: ... or being sc4mz0r3d himself

21:25:55 *: ascii_field wasn't there, didn't see

21:27:49 ascii_field: http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20141125/NEWS04/141129858/mathematicas-wolfram-wins-fraud-case?utm_source=NEWS04&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=chicagobusiness << won.

21:27:52 assbot: Subscription Center | ChicagoBusiness.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1IOIG5G )

21:28:05 ascii_field: that was quick.

21:31:05 ascii_field: 'My real concern, of course, was not that he was using optimized data structures so much as that he seemed on target to reintroduce numerical error back into a world that we had worked hard to make 'exact' (Macsyma used bignums from Lisp) or at least 'arbitrarily exact' (Macsyma had a derived type called 'bigfloat' that was internally a pair bignums, acting more or less as a ratio but with lots of other hidden bits to

21:31:05 ascii_field: assure that any decimalization had enough bits to be precise to a given number of digits). Stephen's aim seemed to be to sacrifice correctness for speed. He seemed clear on that the error was not a problem for him...'

21:31:17 ascii_field: ^ he 'wriggleys gummed' the thing, too.

21:31:28 ascii_field: (modern mathematica is, grudgingly, bignummy.)

21:45:48 Pierre_Rochard: !up ascii_field

21:51:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25568 @ 0.00027439 = 7.0156 BTC [+] {2}

22:00:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00026632 = 7.9896 BTC [-]

22:06:43 mats: Schwab FFS "password must contain at least one letter and no symbols Have one or more numbers between first and last character Password must be between 6 and 8 characters in length"

22:07:48 mats: really? i could attack that on a laptop from 2005.

22:10:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 204264 @ 0.00025593 = 52.2773 BTC [-] {5}

22:11:38 mats: scratch that... 1995.

22:25:04 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2014#599818 << dude is that yours ?

22:25:04 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2014 16:43:00; benkay: bounce: the only solution is to be the competent management you wish to see in the world :)

22:27:47 ben_vulpes: yeah why?

22:30:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17685 @ 0.00025044 = 4.429 BTC [-]

22:31:47 mike_c: yeah? you claiming to be gandhi now :)

22:40:35 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/on-owning-things/ re earlier discussion with funks and alf.

22:40:35 assbot: On owning things on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1OfF5RL )

22:40:58 mircea_popescu: mike_c ben_vulpes i seriously thought i had come up with it, then searched for it, found vulpes

22:41:03 mircea_popescu: was o.O check me out!

22:42:29 mircea_popescu: no wonder the ancients didn't have "intellectual property". too cultivated to imagine it's workable.

22:45:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65150 @ 0.00025031 = 16.3077 BTC [-]

23:08:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17147 @ 0.00024736 = 4.2415 BTC [-]

23:21:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48161 @ 0.00024736 = 11.9131 BTC [-]

23:52:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86900 @ 0.0002686 = 23.3413 BTC [+] {3}

23:54:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17685 @ 0.00026031 = 4.6036 BTC [-]

23:55:22 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 161 @ 0.01 = 1.61 BTC [-] {3}

23:56:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43200 @ 0.00025089 = 10.8384 BTC [-] {2}

23:56:23 BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2015/04/obama-initiative-promotes-linkrot/

23:56:23 assbot: Obama Initiative Promotes Linkrot | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1ya3kwz )