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Transcript for 13-03-2017, 322 lines:

03:01:54 funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2017#1467860 <-- disconnect with reality here is still palpable. Last i heard Gavin had left prb allegiance and was pimping another fork.

03:01:54 assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 15:21:48; asciilifeform: Framedragger: and propagates the use of prb, and the notion that the contents of a prb box are somehow authoritatively 'bitcoin', and thereby sucks gavin's cock.

03:05:24 funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2017#1467873 <-- in other news median tx fee on mainnet btc at half a millie and rising fast

03:05:24 assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 15:32:29; asciilifeform: there is presently and in foreseeable future, no reason for any sane bitcoinist to move to an alt -- no matter how beautifully designed

03:05:56 funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2017#1467849 <-- aha congrats adlai, must have done something right

03:05:56 assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 14:40:56; Framedragger: btw it's funny that #fraudsters derides adlai for all talk and no code while there's quite a bit of code heh, e.g. https://github.com/adlai/cjhunt being worked on etc

03:06:00 asciilifeform: so?

03:06:35 asciilifeform: Funkenstein_: 'half a millie' is too much for you? or for whom

03:06:39 funkenstein_: so small transactions in public coin will need to be off-mainnet-chain

03:07:03 asciilifeform: fuck smalltransactions.

03:07:22 funkenstein_: what and let them eat fiat?

03:07:37 asciilifeform: let'em use cowrie shells for all i care.

03:08:00 funkenstein_: well you're here, perhaps there is some part of you that cares about this world

03:09:45 funkenstein_: i read an interesting book with discussion of cowrie shells recently

03:10:14 funkenstein_: it was a new type of cowrie being slowly pushed onto the market that finally led to the cowrie jubilee

03:13:34 asciilifeform: adlai: your unit ships out this week.

03:42:10 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2017#1467869 < hahaha, another mpsaidism

03:42:10 assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 15:26:24; asciilifeform: see mp's 'i will pay $700 per trb coin , hell or high water' remark.

03:42:47 asciilifeform: oh hey kakobrekla

03:42:47 kakobrekla: let me remind you folx, reality is what refuses to go away after you stop believing in it

03:42:53 asciilifeform: how's china

03:43:05 kakobrekla: im not in cn

03:43:19 asciilifeform: where now

03:44:58 kakobrekla: back in the south part of th, deciding what should be my next destination, prolly time to leave ladyboyland

03:45:41 kakobrekla: want to check NZ but i might go back home first for the summer, its very nice there

03:46:03 asciilifeform: what's good to see in th ?

03:47:00 kakobrekla: depends on the person, i can show you something interesting from saturday, one sec

03:52:04 kakobrekla: https://smpake.com/tmp/DSC_0741.JPG

03:52:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2mAi7xt )

03:52:09 kakobrekla: https://smpake.com/tmp/DSC_0743.JPG

03:52:09 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2mAEfI8 )

03:52:14 kakobrekla: https://smpake.com/tmp/DSC_0757.JPG

03:52:15 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2mAflYZ )

03:52:45 kakobrekla: its huge and entirely made out of wood

03:53:06 kakobrekla: started bulding it in 81

03:53:08 kakobrekla: iirc

03:53:34 kakobrekla: not finished yet - you get a helmet when you enter

03:53:44 asciilifeform: woah

03:55:27 kakobrekla: one terrible pic but to get and idea of the size, human for comparison https://smpake.com/tmp/DSC_0758.JPG

03:55:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2mArwF8 )

03:57:56 kakobrekla: https://smpake.com/tmp/DSC_0773.JPG

03:57:57 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2mArKMu )

03:58:02 kakobrekla: work in progress

03:58:35 funkenstein_: wow beautiful

03:58:50 funkenstein_: and great definition of reality there, will keep that in mind :)

03:59:20 kakobrekla: :)

03:59:46 kakobrekla: i did not make that one up!

03:59:52 funkenstein_: it sounds familiar

04:00:49 kakobrekla: https://smpake.com/tmp/DSC_0778.JPG

04:00:49 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2mAqgSo )

04:00:54 kakobrekla: accidentally cut the top off

04:01:18 kakobrekla: but that is how it looks from the other side

04:42:01 kakobrekla: https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/03/preinstalled-malware-targets-android-users-of-two-companies/

04:42:02 assbot: Malware found preinstalled on 38 Android phones used by 2 companies | Ars Technica ... ( http://bit.ly/2mBUBBL )

04:42:57 kakobrekla: >which uses Tor to conceal the identity of its operators.

04:43:05 kakobrekla: i guess only usg can still pull this off :)

09:11:10 kakobrekla: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/xkcd_phone_5_2x.png < has an alf approved function

09:11:10 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2mCEynk )

09:42:15 kakobrekla: punkman1 ?

10:01:08 punkman: looks like xkcd phone https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/McF0iZZpbXK5lzGYejihMSVwee8=/0x0:1017x678/1310x873/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/48596967/vs09-15_1308s.0.0.0.jpg

10:01:09 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/2mCTMsx )

10:01:32 kakobrekla: lul

10:03:15 punkman: isn't south thailand where the terrorists are btw?

10:03:38 kakobrekla: dunno

10:03:42 kakobrekla: but im not THAT south :D

10:04:28 punkman: "Over 6,500 people died and almost 12,000 were injured between 2004 and 2015 in a formerly ethnic separatist insurgency, which has currently been taken over by hard-line jihadis and pitted them against both the Thai-speaking Buddhist minority and local Muslims who have a moderate approach or who support the Thai government."

10:04:51 kakobrekla: where specifically

10:05:37 punkman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency

10:05:38 assbot: South Thailand insurgency - Wikipedia ... ( http://bit.ly/2mCRVUu )

10:05:52 punkman: probably near the border

10:06:29 kakobrekla: a ok, im not anywhere near there

10:12:43 punkman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_events_related_to_the_South_Thailand_insurgency#2017

10:12:43 assbot: Timeline of events related to the South Thailand insurgency - Wikipedia ... ( http://bit.ly/2mBySIJ )

10:14:35 kakobrekla: in the grand scheme of things it doesnt matter when i go, today or in 50 years

10:15:52 punkman: indonesians/malaysians are big on that concept

15:24:12 Angola: Hello

16:29:22 funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2017#1467888 <-- great timing on statement with the markets :D

16:29:22 assbot: Logged on 13-03-2017 03:05:24; assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 15:32:29; asciilifeform: there is presently and in foreseeable future, no reason for any sane bitcoinist to move to an alt -- no matter how beautifully designed

16:29:50 asciilifeform: which markets funkenstein_

16:30:15 funkenstein_: "alts" all way up today

16:30:21 funkenstein_: well not all of course lol

16:30:31 asciilifeform: go, buy, TOTHEMOONN!!!!11

16:30:36 asciilifeform: load up on doge, whatever.

16:30:57 funkenstein_: yes even doge up a smidge haha

16:30:58 asciilifeform: or crapple stock. or usg fed. whichever pump&dump floats yer boat.

16:31:19 funkenstein_: i'm overweight ltc and nmc

16:31:40 funkenstein_: well slightly less overweight today than yesterday

16:32:59 funkenstein_: if you were asking me about china, i'm back on turtle island for a few weeks

16:34:44 pankkake: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1617264

16:34:46 assbot: [ANN] The first truly rare Pepes on the Bitcoin Blockchain! [ANN] ... ( http://bit.ly/2mEiqsD )

16:35:37 funkenstein_: hey look a bitcoin-asset

16:35:54 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: whatchawaiting for, buy, buy

16:36:56 kakobrekla: looks like alf is getting off

16:37:00 kakobrekla: so interesting.

16:37:06 asciilifeform: lol

16:37:26 punkman: ;;tall

16:37:32 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1239.48, vol: 6183.94630700 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1226.992, vol: 7201.00908 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1233.1, vol: 22978.35053555 | GDAX BTCUSD last: 1240.8, vol: 8638.43248985 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1160.491106, vol: 5986.84550000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1226.932, vol: 3595.02377187 | Gemini BTCUSD last: 1240.44, vol: 2029.01155652 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

16:37:43 kakobrekla: is it up or down ?

16:37:48 asciilifeform: left.

16:37:49 asciilifeform: right.

16:38:10 kakobrekla: yeah do the dance

16:39:30 asciilifeform: i imagine must be quite a ride for kakobrekla , one day he has a fleet of migs, the next -- of toyotas, then migs again

16:39:47 kakobrekla: hey whats wrong with toyotas!

16:41:42 asciilifeform: they dun fly

16:41:58 asciilifeform: or fire rockets.

16:42:09 kakobrekla: given enough thrust

16:42:11 asciilifeform: otherwise very similar.

16:42:12 kakobrekla: they become rockets

16:42:48 pankkake: I'm sure some can explode

16:42:49 kakobrekla: anyway, the perfect amount of rockets for me is 0

16:43:02 kakobrekla: unless the rockets is getting of this fucking planet

16:43:06 kakobrekla: -s

16:43:15 kakobrekla: off

16:44:16 *: funkenstein_ in the middle of "fountains of paradise" reading for space elevator research

16:48:10 funkenstein_: i'm thinking of an add on for your site, will waste hours and hours of your users time waiting and doing useless identification

16:48:33 funkenstein_: and make your site inaccessible to a billion people unless they hire a separate vpn service

16:48:39 funkenstein_: can you name this add-on?

16:48:54 pankkake: cloudflare?

16:49:19 funkenstein_: yeah, as it uses google capcha

17:11:54 punkman: https://twitter.com/qwertyoruiopz/status/841307560267403265

17:11:55 assbot: qwertyoruiop sur Twitter : "Just to be clear: I did not jailbreak the Switch. I simply demonstrated a proof of concept exploit that gives me code exec in the browser." ... ( http://bit.ly/2mEgJvc )

17:12:31 punkman: same webkit exploit used in a iOS jailbreak apparently

17:12:47 punkman: even nintendo can't tame the webshit

17:14:50 kakobrekla: l0l

17:15:20 punkman: fellow is on -otc btw

17:17:01 kakobrekla: who cares he is not worth a piece of shit if he is not sucking drilema dicks

17:47:47 pankkake: how many web of trust do we have btw? there's gribble's, assbot's and idonknowthebot's

17:47:56 pankkake: it's a mess

17:48:47 asciilifeform: pankkake: it's only a mess if you credit >1

17:49:18 pankkake: I don't understand

17:49:45 pankkake: the obvious solution is to create a fourth wot anyway

17:49:50 kakobrekla: its only a mess if you dont suck cocks

17:49:59 kakobrekla: i translated for yo

17:50:00 kakobrekla: u

18:11:13 jurov: Phorks are phun. Even ol' Abraham's YahYah seems to enjoy His forking into Holy Trinity, Allah, Jehova, etc. (but don't tell danielpbarron)

18:14:29 jurov: I personally like Holy Trinity, it has interesting quantum-mechanical properties, not unlike Bose-Einstein condensate.

18:15:02 kakobrekla: :D

19:15:59 kakobrekla: i used to panic when ddosed

19:16:06 kakobrekla: now its over too soon :(

19:16:29 kakobrekla: quitters.

19:19:49 funkenstein_: so jurov are you saying multiple gods can occupy the same physical location?

19:21:38 Framedragger: believe it or not, +/- ~this was a large part of metaphysics debate in middle ages. (not 'same location', but 'same ontological unit')

19:22:23 Framedragger: it was the rage among scholars and the church :)

19:29:08 funkenstein_: Framedragger I don't follow

19:30:07 Framedragger: funkenstein_: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html (i can comment but no time right now - not shying away, just postponing)

19:30:09 assbot: Trinity > History of Trinitarian Doctrines (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy) ... ( http://bit.ly/2mD6E0e )

19:31:33 funkenstein_: there was that great link in channel about the javascript holy trinity not that long ago

19:32:41 funkenstein_: but what has this to do with bosons and fermions or metaphysics?

19:33:09 Framedragger: to oversimplify by several orders of magnitude, 'single god' 'but multiple entities?? [within? or not?]' was a huge deal for the church. it also sparked off some more general metaphysics debates in the field of ontology (= "discipline which studies 'what things there are / can be'"). those later fed back into the argument, church was pissed off with some of them (iirc), good times were had

19:33:56 Framedragger: re bosons, it just associated in a lame way in my mind with pauli's exclusion principle, for example :)

19:35:00 Framedragger: 'multiple things in one location' and all that. iirc church also had a say about that, too. and by church i mean some clever scholars (which nevertheless operated in a dogmatic framework, +/-)

19:36:32 Framedragger: but for example, are 'son of god' and 'god' ontologically equal? i.e., the same thing? if no, then how can there be 'holy trinity'; if yes, then one should be able to use terms 'son of god' and 'god' interchangeably. clearly this doesn't always work. 'son of god had a son of god'.

19:36:56 Framedragger: => le problème.

19:37:51 Framedragger: (ftr SEP is usually a good resource to read)

19:37:53 funkenstein_: hardly matter, not like this stuff is for thinking folks anyway

19:37:57 Framedragger: (so would recommend if interested)

19:38:04 funkenstein_: a colleague referred to european society as a degenerate fermi gas, because all positions are occupied :)

19:38:10 Framedragger: hah :D

19:38:22 Framedragger: well, it's just a special case of more general problems in ontology.

19:38:31 Framedragger: i disagre re thinking folks.

19:38:33 Framedragger: ee*

19:38:35 funkenstein_: aha now i see your angle

19:39:14 Framedragger: i mean, church funded them scholars, so they worked on the shit. (and funnily enough church was not satisfied with the result because hey guess what, dogma is not supposed to be internally consistent all the time..)

19:40:44 funkenstein_: to be more clear, i meant that the substance is probably more important than the semantics to the person thinking things through

19:41:48 Framedragger: yeah, guess so (if i understand what you mean)

19:42:32 Framedragger: (i mean, semantics as a field can be interesting; but also masturbatory, too...)

19:44:13 funkenstein_: indeed. Switching to another language can help removing the semantic issues, though new ones will arise.

19:44:44 Framedragger: yeah

19:47:54 Framedragger: re. interchangeability for example, it's still not a simple case. this was (maybe) first spotted by frege, with his famous 'morning star' / 'evening star' example. this is simple (and masturbatory, maybe) stuff, but just for posterity / ftr: say i spot a celestial body in the morning, and name it 'morning star'. i spot another in the evening, name it 'evening star'. i tell a friend. later, i realise those two are actually the same

19:48:32 Framedragger: body - planet venus. now, under 'direct reference' theory where if x == y, one can use the names interchangeably, the following statement to my friend (who is not aware of the equality yet): "morning star = evening star!" would be meaningless, because if you assume interchangeability, i'm merely saying a tautology:

19:48:44 Framedragger: "morning star = morning star." yet, the statement is somehow meaningful, and not devoid of informational content. (my friend learns a new thing.) how can this be? well, turns out you *can't* always exchange names even if both/all of them have the same referent (e.g. planet venus).

19:48:45 funkenstein_: without context we are lost

19:48:56 Framedragger: so, the picture in semantics becomes more complicated. now add a century of back-and-forth like that, and you get the modern cobweb of philosophy of language. :)

19:49:22 Framedragger: for sure, and some folks have tried really hard to formalise that 'context', etc. etc. (spoiler, +/- ~failure). but, interesting.

19:50:19 funkenstein_: the issue of "sirius the re star" is still outstanding

19:50:22 funkenstein_: *red

19:50:51 Framedragger: oh, that it's not red anymore :D

19:50:52 Framedragger: haha

19:51:06 funkenstein_: yeah, going even further astray sorry

19:51:57 Framedragger: ah yeah, the issue is 'how could it have been red, should take *much* longer to change' lol

19:52:21 funkenstein_: then we have the Dogons and their knowledge of sirius B

19:52:31 Framedragger: ~similar with possibly significantly different colour (green/blue especially iirc) perception in ancient greece, etc

19:53:02 funkenstein_: that's one possible explanation

19:54:33 funkenstein_: ok so just that it is the brightest star in the sky could possibly explain some of the ancients obsession with it

19:55:00 funkenstein_: the other oddity is the proper motion almost exactly matches the precession of the equinoxes

19:56:59 Framedragger: can this just be explained probabilistically, i mean, what are the chances of that? (pretty low i guess?..)

19:58:22 funkenstein_: I gotta look more into the Sothic cycle and get back to you on that

19:58:30 Framedragger: i suppose cultural transfer in 19th c is leading theory re dogons heh

20:00:11 funkenstein_: I'm not sure I buy it.

20:00:32 funkenstein_: The "colors have changed" one doesn't work because Ptolemy described Betelgeuse with the same word for red

20:01:33 funkenstein_: we also have reference to "dog star" or "wolf star" in cultures around the world

20:05:06 Framedragger: i meant cultural transfer only in relation to dogons being aware of sirius b

20:05:44 Framedragger: re. colours changed, i'm not sure, either. it was mostly green/blue yeah, not red which is at the start of the visual spectrum after all

20:05:59 Framedragger: (i.e. was blue/green that changed, not red)

20:07:10 funkenstein_: well the words could certainly change but not the rods and cones

20:07:30 funkenstein_: stellar variability is in my opinion much more poorly understood than most astroph profs let on

20:07:55 funkenstein_: and the motions of stars in the galaxy of course also a mystery

20:08:22 funkenstein_: the Cruttenden material on Sirius as a binary companion of the sun is interesting

20:08:39 funkenstein_: however at 4 ly or so, confirmed by multiple parallax measurements, it seems untenable

20:08:47 *: Framedragger adds to reading list

20:09:14 Framedragger: can imagine atmospheric filtering being a very complex thing indeed

20:09:46 funkenstein_: you mean stellar atmosphere?

20:09:47 Framedragger: but you're aware of various tribes not being able to distinguish between blue and green (but distinguishing well between various shades of green)?

20:10:06 Framedragger: oh, lol, i misunderstood, sorry. no, earth's atmosphere. i now see what you mean

20:10:28 Framedragger: i.e. that atmo of stars is understudied possibly (no comment on that, but interesting to hear)

20:10:38 funkenstein_: a lot of foks in CN ask me what is the word for 青

20:10:59 funkenstein_: a very commonly used color

20:11:54 funkenstein_: "light green" or "indigo" is usually my reply but it's an interesting cultural difference

20:13:36 Framedragger: hah. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%9D%92 is interesting to skim

20:13:37 assbot: 青 - Wiktionary ... ( http://bit.ly/2mF06jg )

20:17:16 funkenstein_: neato thanks

20:43:43 jurov: whoa theosophy ensued

20:44:35 jurov: i came to warn about http://forum.tinycorelinux.net/index.php?topic=20835.0

20:44:37 assbot: Firefox 52.0 Requires Pulseaudio ... ( http://bit.ly/2mDo8JS )

20:44:50 jurov: for everyone who wants to avoid derperisms

20:47:02 *: Framedragger pulseaudio running here, for better or worse :(

21:21:00 adlai: http://log.b-a.link/?date=13-03-2017#1467900 << ty for the notice

21:21:00 assbot: Logged on 13-03-2017 03:13:34; asciilifeform: adlai: your unit ships out this week.

21:21:46 adlai: ty also for yonder voicing, though twas naught but an aughtojoin

21:28:57 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2017#1467847 << sadly i'm not working on much of anything these days. my life accomplishments for year 26 are, so far, not failing university, and getting executed for blasphemy or whatever that was

21:28:57 assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 14:39:36; Framedragger: just discovered accidentally, you still working on this adlai?

21:33:36 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2017#1467858 << these strong words are correct! but only by virtue of tautology. the thing is such a tiny throwaway that making it a freestanding bitcoin program would dwarf the original, leaving the easy loophole - "oh, but this is now a wholly different program than that one!"

21:33:36 assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 15:19:02; asciilifeform: fact is , that thing won't run in my house, and NEVER will, and cannot be fixed so that it will, what am i to call it other than worthless.

21:35:35 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2017#1467863 << a better question might be "why not work on keccak patch for trb, so that trbcoin will survive the P/T fork long enough for mp to buy the dip"

21:35:35 assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 15:23:52; Framedragger: if trb won't be adopted by prb'ers, why not make sane trb-i.

21:36:03 asciilifeform: adlai: if you read the logs, you would know that it will take considerably more than 'add keccak' to make an unkillable trbi

21:37:12 asciilifeform: specifically, data structures have to be picked such that you get O(1) tx processing.

21:37:35 adlai: you misunderstood me. i mean as a trb patch, INSTEAD of trb-i

21:37:44 asciilifeform: it doesn't make any sense whatsoever as 'trb patch'

21:38:04 asciilifeform: the only thing you'd get to keep from the original bitcoin, is the bugs

21:38:23 adlai: it makes sense to the exact same degree that http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2017#1467869 does

21:38:23 assbot: Logged on 12-03-2017 15:26:24; asciilifeform: see mp's 'i will pay $700 per trb coin , hell or high water' remark.

21:38:39 adlai: "trb coin" IS "prb coin", until they fork; at which point, if there is no trb-keccak, there is no trb.

21:39:22 asciilifeform: adlai: for my enlightenment, describe your hypothesis for why this has not yet taken place.

21:39:33 asciilifeform: (despite being derped about by gavin & co. for two+ yrs now)

21:39:55 asciilifeform: kakobrekla's answer was some indecipherable monkey noise. let's see yours.

21:40:03 adlai: i'm saying, that a more sensible question for Framedragger to have asked (instead of "why aren't you working on gedankengeld?"): "why aren't you working on making trb survive a fork where miners continue mining prb?"

21:42:51 adlai: i have a growing impression that miners are, in a sense, luddites. this works in bitcoin's favor (note that i say bitcoin, not trb, or prb), because it means they prefer to keep using the least "improved" code that still functions

21:43:02 asciilifeform: adlai: by definition, in your scenario, trb (as in ye olde bitcoin protocol) goes kaput. it does not 'survive' by virtue of being retrofitted with keccak.

21:44:19 asciilifeform: if you're gonna break compatibility, there is 0 point in keeping satoshi's cpp liquishit around at all.

21:53:20 adlai: i agree re: throwing out the liquishit. i do think that ye olde protocolle is long gone, even trb is patched to reflect this. i'm not sure what you mean by "trb goes kaput", although i do agree that the chance is low that it would be worth more dollars than the other chain (or to have "more hashpower", however you'd measure that across different functions)

21:54:35 asciilifeform: adlai: in, say, kakobrekla's favourite scenario ( nsa miners unite to crush the Evil Terrorists once and for all ) traditional trb becomes 'unmineably' hash-impoverished and satoshi's thing is done.

21:56:08 asciilifeform: and we might be talking about different things under 'protocol'. for so long as old blocks parse, and every new block is a valid block by trb rules, trb continues to work.

21:57:07 Framedragger: fair point, though i laughed at the "either you're with trb *or* you're with nsa"

21:57:18 asciilifeform: Framedragger: it is not an observation, it is a declaration.

21:57:20 adlai: pressing trb genesis does not validate new blocks

21:58:01 asciilifeform: adlai: you can go and re-read the 'missile crisis' article yourself, i will not summarize it again for the nth time.

21:59:20 adlai: obviously if there's a fork designed to isolate trb as opposed to prb, it will probably be supported by a warehouse of hardware ready to attack whichever algorithm trb might have planned to switch to; but this is a hypothetical, and if there is no alternate algorithm, there's not even any need to magic additional funds for the warehouse

22:00:06 adlai: arguably this is the only situation where such a fork even would occurr

22:00:20 asciilifeform: adlai: the 'warehouse of hardware' thing was a scenario i described in 2013, when first found #bitcoin-assets . for some reason it has not materialized.

22:00:34 asciilifeform: despite nsa's infinite fountain of hardware.

22:00:41 asciilifeform: why not -- i do not know

22:00:57 asciilifeform: maybe it is all customized specifically for bruteforcing rsa, i have nfi.

22:01:38 adlai: well, imagine you're an nsa middle-manager that has been told by some underling that this is the right way to fight bitcoin, and must now convince his boss to convince his boss to convince his boss to... earmark funds for this project

22:02:08 adlai: somewhere along the food chain, you probably reach an idiot who will either laugh or get pissed

22:02:54 adlai: attacking bitcoin by mining it yourself is a tacit admission of its sovereignty

22:03:35 asciilifeform: adlai: there are some very simple ways to break bitcoin permanently and irreparably , if you can turn up a 'infinite warehouse of hardware'

22:03:46 asciilifeform: for instance, just ONE sha256 collision.

22:03:57 asciilifeform: make two blocks that have same hash.

22:04:04 adlai: fwiw if you want to go full conspiratard - the nsa's infinite fountain is not just all the existing hardware, but also the fabs. should aforementioned managers approve the attack plan, they only need to spend a couple months outproducing the rest of the mining manufacturers

22:04:25 adlai: ok, i'm thinking more about finite-but-large fountains

22:04:25 asciilifeform: adlai: if you were to read the logs, you would find that i described this scenario in agonizing detail in 2013.

22:04:35 asciilifeform: complete with 'miners in every cpu made since 2010 ready to go'

22:06:04 adlai: if you were to continue making ad-hominem attacks rather than giving a link to a specific point in the logs, i might have to find a more polite way of asking you to be more polite yourself

22:06:29 asciilifeform: adlai: kakobrekla's search box still works great, why not try search ?

22:06:58 adlai: a) it actually doesn't, didja see the bitcoin-charlie cockup?

22:07:12 asciilifeform: nope

22:08:36 adlai: b) i have a general sense of that discussion. no, i can't recite it from memory, but if there's a ~specific~ point you want to make, please at least make clearer what it is (don't have to spell it out, just make it findable - "in 2013" is a big search space)

22:08:50 adlai: if your point is just "we are discussing something that was discussed before" - point taken, what else is new?

22:10:16 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2017#1468150 >> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-01-2017#1465722

22:10:16 assbot: Logged on 13-03-2017 22:06:58; adlai: a) it actually doesn't, didja see the bitcoin-charlie cockup?

22:10:16 assbot: Logged on 20-01-2017 10:04:37; adlai: kakobrekla: uh, http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bitcoin-charlie&start=80 3rd result is a mod6 line being reported as shrem

22:10:46 asciilifeform: wasn't that from kakobrekla's 'april fool' gag ?

22:10:51 asciilifeform: where various folx got renamed

22:10:59 adlai: looks like assbot didn't get the joke

22:11:04 asciilifeform: apparently

22:11:38 adlai: anyway - i do think the chances of a hostile fork are low

22:12:09 adlai: oh there's also the obvious explanation - nsa isn't attacking bitcoin because it invented it

22:12:27 asciilifeform: adlai: idea being 'fatten the pig for the knife' neh.

22:12:54 adlai: could be, or could be a false flag for entrapment and surveillance

22:13:26 asciilifeform: http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com/2011/03/bitcoin-conspiracy-theory.html << the classic on the subj

22:13:27 assbot: FSK's Guide to Reality: The Bitcoin Conspiracy Theory ... ( http://bit.ly/2mDpu76 )

22:13:35 adlai: keep bitcoin 'working' indefinitely, parallel-construct any cases caught through it, and stick a waterwheel in the waterfall while you're at it!

22:13:55 asciilifeform: what means 'caught through it' ?

22:14:02 asciilifeform: the blockchain is public.

22:14:17 asciilifeform: it isn't a tor, doesn't claim to anonymize anything.

22:15:18 asciilifeform: a good bitcoin boobytrap conspiracy story oughta include 'they have a pill for ecdsa', or at least 'they have a pill for sha256 and most mining really takes place in this one closet at ftmeade'

22:15:51 asciilifeform: but at any rate it ought to be something reasonably unexpected, rather than just 'they can see your transactions!' (noshit)

22:16:19 adlai: the bitcoin p2p network, plus the blockchain history, gives lots of raw data for correlating finance flows

22:17:45 asciilifeform: what can be correlated from blockchain, isn't exactly a secret, neh.

22:17:45 adlai: at some point, if trb-i should become more geld and less denken, one must draw the line at conspiracy absurdity

22:18:00 adlai: it's not a secret, but it's amazing how many bipeds don't know it

22:18:00 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

22:18:56 *: adlai spends a significant portion of his irl interactions with fresh buyers explaining that they're not "going off the grid" by closing their bank accts and buying bitcoin, but rather - "out of the frying pan, into the fire"

22:19:19 adlai: and invariably this is met with a blank stare, or even anger that bitcoin was misrepresented to them!

22:20:27 asciilifeform: at least they weren't expecting it to cure cancer or regrow limbs, disappointment would have been worse yet.

22:21:59 adlai: what depresses me worst is the futility of trb-i-ing (or even trb-ing!) on today's hardware

22:22:30 asciilifeform: adlai: elaborate

22:22:41 adlai: (the software bedrock doesn't make it any better)

22:23:09 adlai: well it's funny that you ask me to elaborate, i'd basically be paraphrasing your blog back at you, with a bit of my own paranoia mixed in

22:25:13 adlai: but if we take meta-nsa as near-omnipotent, little stops them from being able to fish keys out of ~any computer, should that specific computer be their target

22:25:59 asciilifeform: adlai: you might enjoy this vintage thread, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-04-2014#600760

22:25:59 assbot: Logged on 02-04-2014 23:20:40; asciilifeform: the interesting thing is that nsa-as-we-know-it, but with a pill against modern crypto hidden in an 'indiana jones'-style vault, would scarcely be distinguishable from what we can now see

22:27:59 adlai: or phrased in your phrasology: specificity of diddling exists, but it doesn't seem like a good defense once you yourself become a target, and it could be made a better defense if each castle weren't built from the same rapidly fading blueprint

22:28:15 *: adlai loads thread

22:28:29 asciilifeform: adlai: let's work small exercise together

22:28:36 adlai: btw i have not yet found the 'miners in every cpu made since 2010' thread, still looking

22:29:05 asciilifeform: say i have a cpu where the instruction set is randomly-generated on boot. (it is quite possible to make this, on fpga.)

22:29:31 asciilifeform: now you know that i am running a proggy (say, ssh) with known remote-execution 0day (say, stack overflow)

22:29:35 asciilifeform: how will you go about exploiting it ?

22:31:03 adlai: i'm not sure that 0day works, but even if it does, 'you' needs to know the instruction set to craft a payload

22:31:37 adlai: so let me rephrase my lament as "would that i bitcoinated on an fpga", or even, "would that i knew how to ..."

22:31:46 asciilifeform: or, an example from 2300 yrs ago: chinese emperor qin shi huangdi went to bed every night in a different, randomly selected room of his 1500 room palace. in a certain number of others, there would be cutthroats waiting to chop up anyone who opens the door. wanna play minesweeper ?

22:33:16 asciilifeform: adlai: the examples are meant to illustrate 'specificity of diddling'

22:34:18 adlai: i guess it's still possible to reach arbitrary specificities even with today's crapware, but the crapware doesn't make the job any easier

22:34:55 asciilifeform: adlai: which is why i've been occupied for quite some time with the very 'unsexy' work of learning to get rid of shitware, where possible

22:35:07 asciilifeform: (for instance, trb does not use glibc. or dns.)

22:35:28 asciilifeform: currently i am testing a means of ditching bdb.

22:35:56 *: adlai does read the logs...

22:38:32 *: adlai will read more logs, later; now, to sleep

22:38:40 asciilifeform: 'night adlai

22:38:54 adlai: goodnight, and good luck :)