Transcript for 14-04-2017, 265 lines:
02:01:54 funkenstein_: also in utra-mega unsurprises, fees back up above half a millie with 70k unconfirmed sitting in mempools
02:02:17 funkenstein_: the only surprising thing in this channel in a few days is Adlai still reads tardlemma
02:08:05 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: not only, but buys FUCKGOATS
02:09:01 funkenstein_: hey i'd buy one too, playing with neat electronics is a little different than having horseshit shoveled into your brainpan
02:10:13 asciilifeform: it isn't clear to asciilifeform why fella who 'horseshit fraudsters' would buy such a thing
02:10:22 asciilifeform: but i am not a psychiatrist. buy, buy
02:11:20 funkenstein_: what's a RNG got to do with reading unhappy folx make false statements and post i-hate-wimminz brand erotica?
02:12:19 asciilifeform: plenty of interesting, verifiable lulz even for funkenstein_ . e.g., http://fraudsters.com/2017/the-incidental-humiliation-of-obamas-clean-energy-policies-marc-andreessens-internet-of-farts-and-other-such-comedic-gold-bricks where asciilifeform & mircea_popescu find that a leading solar panel vendor is scamming american public
02:12:38 asciilifeform: ( and who doesn't believe, can go to the linked boxes himself & see )
02:13:46 funkenstein_: looks to me like all-caps "i know nothing about power solar or otherwise" do you see another translation?
02:14:49 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: gonna dispute a particular number ? or throw shit like chimp.
02:14:56 funkenstein_: more in mega unsurprises
02:15:09 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: go ahead and tell me how a $40k system that generates ~$100 in mains current per yr. is not a scam ?
02:15:18 funkenstein_: "the best way to save energy is to... not buy nor install solar panels." <-- disputed
02:15:24 asciilifeform: ( and where -- in typical install - 20-30% of the subunits fail in 1st yr )
02:16:14 funkenstein_: compare to at least readable English here http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/green-tech/a24357/solar-power-cheapest-energy/
02:16:40 asciilifeform: ^ lulpropaganda vs ACTUAL NUMBERS FROM LIVE SYSTEMS (why plugged into net? i have nfi)
02:17:38 funkenstein_: dude i did a scan of some live machines plugged into the net and .. not one said there was an integer larger than 7
02:18:39 asciilifeform: 170 MWh ~= 150 usd.
02:18:43 asciilifeform: ( where i live )
02:18:57 funkenstein_: so they were probably off or the guy moved away, who knows
02:19:06 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: i got 30 of these.
02:19:12 asciilifeform: all quite similar.
02:19:19 asciilifeform: and 'guy' is university of chicago.
02:19:21 funkenstein_: you bought solar panels?
02:19:22 asciilifeform: moved away lol.
02:19:33 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: if you want to be a public idiot, i cannot possibly stop you.
02:19:49 asciilifeform: but i ~can~ unzip and piss.
02:19:57 funkenstein_: asciilifeform, you at least know what you are getting into, this I appreciate
02:20:28 funkenstein_: remember the "i scanned the internets and determined there is no nightlife in buenos aires" ? this looks similarly lulzy
02:20:58 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: for some reason this vendor hangs all of its controllers on the public net (why? i dunno, ask'em). find me one that's +ev
02:21:12 asciilifeform: that earned back so much as 1% of its install cost.
02:22:04 funkenstein_: install cost as determined how?
02:22:07 assbot: Logged on 14-04-2017 02:02:17; funkenstein_: the only surprising thing in this channel in a few days is Adlai still reads tardlemma
02:22:09 asciilifeform: from vendor.
02:22:24 asciilifeform: also ( this was not in the fraudsters link ) their rsa key is broken.
02:22:38 asciilifeform: all of the units have phuctorable ssh key.
02:22:59 funkenstein_: hey neato :)
02:23:23 funkenstein_: so we have some people running something badly, from crappy vendor.. therefore --> solar power sucks!
02:24:10 funkenstein_: if you want to make a reasonable analysis of hardware, solar power industry, cool - this would be a useful exercise.
02:24:17 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: i'd like a +ev solar generator too
02:24:21 *: adlai wonders, re:#t - is asciilifeform tuned to police freqs out of... boredom? surely there's meat to cook, pets to pet?
02:24:29 funkenstein_: If you find linked article anything like this description - may god help you :)
02:24:58 asciilifeform: adlai: i was trying out new antenna.
02:24:58 adlai: or is this just the background music at your workbench?
02:25:01 asciilifeform: and yes.
02:25:03 funkenstein_: asciilifeform, go steal a panel, plug it in - +ev instantly
02:25:38 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: the way it looks, even if martians dropped a crate of these at my front door, picking it up and installing would be -ev
02:25:59 asciilifeform: because asciilifeform's time taken to do this is worth more than the things would earn in many years.
02:26:05 adlai: aha. in hebrew we use the imperative of 'renew' as a subtype of "congratulations", specific to new stuff... somehow "congratulations on the new antenna" sounds a little clunky
02:26:28 funkenstein_: well you seem to have time for lengthy personal exercises in humility and futility
02:26:54 asciilifeform: dun flatter yerself funkenstein_ : asciilifeform is waiting for a $process.
02:28:17 adlai: fwiw, "excess solar capacity" has been used more than once as the excuse for rubes asking me about mining
02:29:12 asciilifeform: adlai: apparently the nice panels are somewhere else. and not in the (usg-sponsored, through tax break) konsoomer boxes.
02:29:12 adlai: (family of power company employees get free power in israel, and it's not unheard of for people to scam this in various ways)
02:29:50 funkenstein_: "In last week?s energy auction, Chile accepted a bid from Spanish developer Solarpack Corp. Tecnologica for 120 megawatts of solar at the stunning price of $29.10 per megawatt-hour (2.91 cents per kilowatt-hour or kwh). This beats the 2.99 cents/kwh bid Dubai received recently for 800 megawatts. For context, the average residential price for electricity in the United States is 12 cents per kilowatt-hour."
02:30:17 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: industrial solar plant typically runs a mechanical (mirrors heat steam, then turbine turns) cycle
02:30:19 asciilifeform: rather than pv
02:30:39 asciilifeform: supposedly this is changing, as new types of panels become available. but apparently not here.
02:31:13 funkenstein_: aha, you are at least thinking and saying something interesting here
02:31:23 funkenstein_: give us another example of abject idiocy please this was fun
02:31:29 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: incidentally this is a disingenuous comparison, konsoomer kilowatt-hr in usa includes massive tax
02:32:36 funkenstein_: adlai what ever happened to spondoolies anyway?
02:33:14 adlai: it succeeded as a startup, ie, was sold to some conglomerate
02:33:47 funkenstein_: i wonder which
02:34:11 funkenstein_: did you ever meet naturalog?
02:34:28 adlai: ;;google spondoolies acquisition
02:34:29 gribble: Bitcoin Mining Developer Spondoolies Shuts Down ...: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-mining-developer-spondoolies-shuts/; Spondoolies -Tech Receives Key Approval for Merger with BTCS ...: http://www.coindesk.com/press-releases/spondoolies-tech-receives-key-approval-merger-btcs/; BTCS gets 24m shares for cancelation for zero consideration after ...: http://financefeeds.com (1 more message)
02:35:11 adlai: the nick rings a bell. i think we chatted in #zennet, and concluded that we had not met in person.
02:35:26 adlai: (iirc he also lives in israel)
02:35:39 funkenstein_: yeah that's the guy :)
02:35:49 funkenstein_: hmm BTCS is publicly traded, neato
02:37:56 adlai: the whole zennet/tauchain thing is bizarre enough in and of itself
02:38:46 adlai: doesn't look like anything ever came of it, which of course never stopped them from selling 'tokens'
02:39:51 adlai: re: spondoolies, i do believe some of their staff work for Bitmain today, that has an R&D center nearby
02:41:00 funkenstein_: yeah i have to mostly agree sadly, but I have learned a lot from that guy and admire the ambition
02:42:35 adlai: ahaha, bitmain's blog is categorized into "crypto noob" and "crypto pro". i assume the latter qualification requires at least a decade of blockchain programming experience?
02:44:57 funkenstein_: Only Craig White is qualified to read that I guess
07:29:07 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-04-2017#1469677 < l0l what kind of potatoes do you use?
07:29:07 assbot: Logged on 14-04-2017 02:15:24; asciilifeform: ( and where -- in typical install - 20-30% of the subunits fail in 1st yr )
07:36:36 punkman: perhaps shhould be comparing residential solar with diesel generator prices, not grid prices
07:37:19 punkman: related http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-12-2015#1351748
07:37:20 assbot: Logged on 24-12-2015 12:18:19; punkman: http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/eu--anti-circumvention-duties-for-chinese-solar-products-shipped-via-taiwan--malaysia_100022552/
07:37:33 kakobrekla: punkman, your faith in drilema is inadequate
07:38:34 punkman: I think alf's find was pretty amusing though
07:41:49 *: adlai wonders if g_l_p still reads b-a logs, but if he does, he should reconsider who he
07:42:20 adlai: ... *whoM he PMs for unsolicited 'homework' help
07:42:58 punkman: adlai: do people use solar water heaters in israel?
07:43:15 *: adlai also wonders whether it is morally just to fantasize about castrating everybody responsible for a ^M misclick to act the same as a RET misclick
07:44:08 adlai: punkman: yeah i'd say they're totally standard. fun fact: one is called a "dude" (plural: dudim), pronounced almost exactly as you'd hope.
07:44:22 punkman: heh
07:44:26 adlai: lead to endless "there's a dude on our roof!" jokes with my dad when i was that age
07:44:34 punkman: you can hardly find a roof without at least one over here
07:44:57 adlai: apt bldgs usually have rows of them
07:47:40 punkman: I wonder what's state of the art re: solar AC
07:49:46 adlai: in case anyone is living under a rock for the past two weeks, S3E1 is ~best episode in the series
07:54:59 adlai: game spinoffs pretty much don't exist in my world. i pretend they don't, like $PERSON pretends $THING doesn't exist (fill in blanks according to partisanship)
07:55:36 punkman: if I had a VR rig I'd be tempted
07:56:06 adlai: doesn't "VR rig" these days amount to a shitty pnoje and overpriced plastic doodad?
07:58:36 adlai: well good luck to them, at least one of the show's creators is actually running the thing as opposed to just licensing the characters
08:12:18 jurov: ;;calc 150/170000
08:12:18 gribble: 0.000882352941176
08:12:44 jurov: asciilifeform: this is yer electricity/kWh price ???
08:14:07 punkman: should start mining amirite
08:22:28 jurov: but how comes noone noticed he is mixing up kWh/MWh?
08:22:51 punkman: nobody notices a lot of things
08:24:10 punkman: even at $15-20k still -ev though
08:26:15 jurov: how do you know? how old/power-rated it is?
08:29:17 jurov: it says "Past Week 229 kWh" ,that means 1.36kW on average
08:30:20 jurov: ;;calc 170000/1.36/24/365
08:30:21 gribble: 14.2694063927
08:30:49 jurov: so it can go on maybe another 10 years
08:33:51 jurov: ikr, the maff above is VERY crude, but still better than 1000x mixup
08:34:19 punkman: what's the calculation
08:35:29 jurov: 14 years estimated runtime
08:37:37 jurov: punkman: srs, no schrodinger equation involved even
08:37:52 pankkake: doesn't being somewhat independent from the grid have a value?
08:39:43 jurov: that's different thing from the ROI
08:40:57 pankkake: sure
08:49:21 punkman: jurov: doesn't it have a deploy date though
08:49:34 jurov: where?
08:50:12 punkman: in the solar-lulz.txt, I've not looked at the actual boxes
12:50:19 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-04-2017#1469794 << you don't get this with the american pv systems, they have no battery ( residential battery is massively -ev, lasts couple of years and you need new one, same as in, e.g., 'tesla' auto )
12:50:19 assbot: Logged on 14-04-2017 08:37:52; pankkake: doesn't being somewhat independent from the grid have a value?
12:51:44 davout: being "somewhat independent from the grid" is achieved with simple diesel engines here
12:53:26 asciilifeform: here - with petrol engines
12:53:52 asciilifeform: but certainly not with 'maybe a kw or two when the sky is clear' item.
12:55:18 asciilifeform: jurov: there is no 1000-fold error, you are probably looking at the post-tax price.
12:56:38 asciilifeform: ( a bit disingenuous to say that i 'save' this money when buying a pv panel -- count it as part of the massive usg tx subsidy )
12:56:50 asciilifeform: *tax
12:58:21 asciilifeform: though even then i have nfi what jurov did here
12:58:42 asciilifeform: asciilifeform pays ~13 cents per kW/h
12:58:45 jurov: i have nfi, what you are up to, too
12:58:59 jurov: but it's 170 MEGAwatthours
12:59:05 jurov: not KILO
12:59:06 asciilifeform: that's 130 funbux per MW/h
12:59:26 jurov: Times 170
13:03:39 asciilifeform: jurov: hm yes, that does give a slightly less riotously insane 22k usd in 5+yrs of 126 panels (from linked example where the 170M was found)
13:04:01 asciilifeform: still pretty sad however.
13:04:19 asciilifeform: ( do you know what 126 panels and inverters cost? )
13:06:12 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-04-2017#1469797 << click on 'inventory' link
13:06:12 assbot: Logged on 14-04-2017 08:49:21; punkman: jurov: doesn't it have a deploy date though
13:06:27 asciilifeform: each panel gets install date
13:07:47 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-04-2017#1469789 << if you look at the boxes, seems like none of these will go for anywhere near 10y without ~50% drop in capacity -- the inverters die
13:07:47 assbot: Logged on 14-04-2017 08:30:49; jurov: so it can go on maybe another 10 years
15:47:59 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: yours ?
15:48:07 asciilifeform: i've been trying to buy one for many years now.
15:48:09 funkenstein_: yeah, just arrived
15:48:17 asciilifeform: where bought ?
15:48:20 funkenstein_: took me ages to find it
15:48:28 funkenstein_: finally found somebody who had one in his basement
15:48:39 asciilifeform: aaah
15:48:41 funkenstein_: 180 rmb with shipping
15:48:59 asciilifeform: neato
15:49:18 asciilifeform: here i was, thinking they were finally buyable on this side of ocean.
15:49:32 funkenstein_: :)
15:50:04 funkenstein_: i'll try to get one back for you
15:50:04 asciilifeform: i would like, for instance, that metallic laptop, but it isn't for sale by anybody (afaik) for any amount.
15:50:23 funkenstein_: yeah i went through some hoops looking for that one
15:50:24 asciilifeform: i don't particular want the pictured unit (comp in monitor) for anything tho.
15:50:38 asciilifeform: always seemed like 'worst of both worlds' to me.
15:51:20 funkenstein_: a few phonecalls with lemote representatives which were kinda like the monty python cheese shop
15:51:39 asciilifeform: i had nfi lemote were still in business
15:51:49 asciilifeform: had this recollection, that it left konsoomer market.
15:51:56 funkenstein_: yup
15:52:57 funkenstein_: girl found somebody on the phone who said they could get one of the old laptops, but it would cost some ungodly amount
15:53:05 funkenstein_: i was like yeah, i'll pay it
15:53:17 funkenstein_: they were like, well, only if you are a defense contractor
15:53:28 funkenstein_: decided to stop there :)
15:53:33 asciilifeform: out of curiosity, why the desire for ~this~ particular out-of-production box ?
15:53:43 asciilifeform: why not, e.g., a 'tadpole'
15:54:14 asciilifeform: lemote was an appealing thing to asciilifeform and various folx because it was an ~in-production~ alternative to x86
15:54:17 funkenstein_: really i'm just curious .. wasn't even sure the things were real
15:55:08 funkenstein_: it looks as if somebody came down on the operation like they did to that 1960s electric car
15:55:15 asciilifeform: they were real. but, unfortunately, not (as initially claimed) a native chinese design, but rather a licensed copy of british design (arm)
15:55:34 funkenstein_: i still haven't cracked the case open
15:56:40 funkenstein_: what's the tadpole?
15:56:49 asciilifeform: defunct maker of sparc laptop.
15:56:55 asciilifeform: (1990s, usa iirc)
15:57:43 asciilifeform: and ah, correction, lemote promised native ~mips~ chip, not arm
15:57:57 asciilifeform: then turned out to have purchased foreign license.
15:58:07 funkenstein_: yeah thing claims to be mips64
15:58:26 funkenstein_: but LONG_BIT is 32
15:58:30 funkenstein_: also claims to have 0 cores
15:58:59 asciilifeform: mips is a great arch -- simple enough to be assigned as homework to engineering students
15:59:06 asciilifeform: i have nfi how they could have fucked it up
15:59:44 funkenstein_: hmm i will play some more with it. I'm not sure what the story is with this linux either
16:00:55 asciilifeform: incidentally i'd settle for a source of ~just the chip~
16:00:59 asciilifeform: if it were available
16:01:05 asciilifeform: but so far no dice.
16:01:28 funkenstein_: source as in - in production?
16:01:56 funkenstein_: not pulled out of landfills?
16:01:56 asciilifeform: aha
16:02:00 asciilifeform: in production.
16:02:51 asciilifeform: ( ever reball a bga ? or pay someone to do it ? not cheap. and no guarantee re result. )
16:28:18 Framedragger: to counterbalance alf's "#b-a is now doing $derp": #t now discussing bitbet as parallel construction possibility :)
16:28:35 asciilifeform: Framedragger: was discussed year or so ago.
16:28:49 asciilifeform: pre-schism, even.
16:29:11 Framedragger: mk.
20:49:18 kakobrekla: lol
20:50:09 kakobrekla: so funny to observe armchair solar experts
20:53:19 kakobrekla: nonsense keeps spilling over here for some reason
21:13:43 asciilifeform: trololol
21:13:57 asciilifeform: ( out of curiosity -- on what does kakobrekla picture himself as an 'non-armchair' expert ? )
21:15:21 kakobrekla: dunno, i installed 1 megawatt of solar in 2001 or so
21:15:35 kakobrekla: well, i helped to install, it was not JUST me.
21:15:59 asciilifeform: how was it put together ?
21:16:05 kakobrekla: with wires!
21:16:13 asciilifeform: ( 1 massive inverter -- or many small ones , like the linked item earlier ? )
21:17:17 kakobrekla: would need to look up the plans but there were more than 1 and less than 10 for a single ~0.7mw setup
21:17:26 asciilifeform: what make of panel ? which chemistry ? and, most interestingly, did the thing pay for itself ?
21:18:13 kakobrekla: i think its over half way there
21:18:23 kakobrekla: but really i cant pull these numbers from ass
21:18:34 kakobrekla: unline youknowwho
21:18:56 kakobrekla: but please do! polute your mind with stink!
21:31:56 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: serious q. i could use the answer.
21:32:41 asciilifeform: in usa, you get payola (tax break) for buying pv panels. and i'd like to know who - if anyone - sells proper kit.
21:35:32 kakobrekla: i dont live in 3rd world country and dont know who sells what there
21:36:17 asciilifeform: afaik all of the panels are chinese, in any case
21:36:41 asciilifeform: so quite possibly same thing kakobrekla has, is available here.
21:36:57 kakobrekla: now, something for you to laugh at, i still have 2 solydra panels at my home (not in use)
21:37:14 asciilifeform: hm i had nfi they ~made~ panels
21:37:18 asciilifeform: thought it was a reseller.
21:37:24 kakobrekla: solyndra*
21:37:42 asciilifeform: and why not in use ?
21:38:02 kakobrekla: they made those tube ones
21:38:20 kakobrekla: thez had some advantage when market conditions for raw materials were bad iirc
21:38:36 asciilifeform: the amorphous silicon thing ?
21:38:50 kakobrekla: prolly i dont recall the details anymore
21:39:04 kakobrekla: why not in use, 2 panels are not worth the trouble
21:39:35 asciilifeform: do they actually roll up into a tube ?
21:40:39 kakobrekla: i do have solar panel at my holiday cottage (which btw has green roof - very nice) and that can go off the grid ~indefinetely if you are not crazy with power consuption
21:41:08 kakobrekla: solyndra https://sites.suffolk.edu/adlane/files/2012/03/solyndra.jpg
21:41:38 kakobrekla: anyway im sure you can googlefoo yourself
21:41:45 kakobrekla: but now - breakfast
23:01:41 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: solarworld pulling crystals, slicing and assembling into panels last time i passed through their facility.
23:02:01 ben_vulpes: also packaging cn polycrystalline product into panels in same facility
23:02:36 ben_vulpes: this was before major market shakeup, so i have nfi what they're doing now
23:02:54 asciilifeform: what's solarworld
23:03:00 ben_vulpes: de co iirc
23:04:44 asciilifeform: right, but how do these relate ? ben_vulpes tried'em ?
23:05:42 assbot: Logged on 14-04-2017 21:36:17; asciilifeform: afaik all of the panels are chinese, in any case
23:05:52 asciilifeform: aah ok
23:06:04 asciilifeform: neato.