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Transcript for 14-11-2014, 1966 lines:

00:00:33 mircea_popescu: the purpose of trees, to hear the bromeliaceae tell it, is to one day support one! and in fact all life on earth evolves towards that peak of creation, a parasite plant of little notice.

00:03:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41650 @ 0.00044509 = 18.538 BTC [-] {2}

00:05:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform merely consider the fact that the politbureau did not customarily seek to include the general opinion of the populace. not exactly socialism, this, is it ?

00:06:08 mircea_popescu: the chinese pretend themselves communists, but really... the us is more advanced on the socialist path than they are.

00:06:44 asciilifeform: usa just solved the 'problem' of popular opinion in a rather different way.

00:06:59 joecool: distraction?

00:07:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but at least the usian populace gets to pick which butt to be pictured bare.

00:07:27 mircea_popescu: the soviets had no equivalent input in the workings of pravda.

00:07:34 asciilifeform: really? i don't recall being asked - which butt.

00:07:46 mircea_popescu: you personally ? well no, that's not teh socialist way.

00:07:48 mircea_popescu: there's metrics, yo.

00:07:50 asciilifeform: aha.

00:08:06 chetty: but those are all made up

00:08:15 mircea_popescu: this entire sign things stuff we do is exactly antisocialist.

00:08:20 asciilifeform: in usa, they not only had better steel and semiconductors, back in the day, they also had better chumpatronics.

00:08:29 asciilifeform: which was the undoing.

00:09:08 asciilifeform: see also limonov's discussion re: 'hard' vs 'soft' totalitarianisms

00:09:21 joecool: <mircea_popescu> even stalin was (and roughly stayed) an anarchist. < would you expound on this a bit? I have never seen that viewpoint expressed

00:09:31 asciilifeform: 'hard' is when you end up needing to physically restrain people, actually shoot dissenters, etc.

00:09:42 mircea_popescu: joecool well, consider his early life. guy robbed banks and generally lived as an outlaw.

00:09:44 asciilifeform: 'soft' - when the entire concept of meaningful resistance becomes a hard problem

00:09:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00044868 = 7.1789 BTC [+]

00:10:10 mircea_popescu: joecool on what grounds would you identify pre-1930 stalin as a socialist ?

00:10:30 joecool: mircea_popescu: ah so personally he ran his life as such is what you mean, not his government so much?

00:10:50 mircea_popescu: wait a second. what part of the "you folks are like blind kittens" is socialist, iyo ?

00:11:02 mircea_popescu: "i know better than you lot, you lot are stupid, not least of all for being a lot in the first place".

00:11:09 mircea_popescu: does this sound a lot like socialism to you ?

00:11:28 joecool: mircea_popescu: not thinking it was socialism, I just didn't consider it anarchism

00:11:36 mircea_popescu: he ran his government exactly like you'd expect a lifetime anarchist war hero to run a government.

00:11:42 mircea_popescu: broz tito did exactly the same thing.

00:11:50 asciilifeform: where are the mythical 'actual socialists' - and what is even the point of looking for them.

00:12:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i linked a youtube of a pirvulescu attack on ceausescu.

00:12:33 undata: not to derail, but I have to paste this here: http://www.theverge.com/2014/11/13/7213819/your-bowling-shirt-is-holding-back-progress

00:12:34 assbot: I don't care if you landed a spacecraft on a comet, your shirt is sexist and ostracizing | The Verge

00:12:40 mircea_popescu: that was exactly "career socialist vs anarchist that overtook the party" moment.

00:12:57 undata: apparently that guy's shirt is why women don't "science"

00:13:25 mircea_popescu: undata not sure why anyone cares what Chris Plante & Arielle Duhaime-Ross have to say on any topic.

00:13:32 mircea_popescu: they're the reason nobody reads the verge.

00:13:56 undata: mircea_popescu: representative of opinions you hear in Portland quite often

00:14:04 mircea_popescu: except i don't. :)

00:14:20 undata: ha, right.

00:14:31 mircea_popescu: * at that moment, undata was enlightened * lol

00:15:13 mircea_popescu: anyway, to be noted that the european space agency did it. the us relevancy, like the mass of the comet, withering away by the minute.

00:15:26 *: mircea_popescu recalls the eu space agency early on, such a risible attempt.

00:15:40 mircea_popescu: you know, back when the euro "didn't have a chance", and like the canadian dollar, traded under the usd.

00:22:38 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's one for ya : a google for McIlroy produces a solid pages of derpage about some random kid playing golf.

00:23:48 asciilifeform: lol!

00:25:14 mircea_popescu: i have a lot of sympathy for kids trying to piece together some shard of understanding out of isaiah berlin, rory mcilroy and ronald mcdonald.

00:25:39 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/345DS4X.txt )

00:25:39 BingoBoingo: !b 3

00:25:59 BingoBoingo: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/beirut-cops-cant-tell-hipsters-from-jihadis.html

00:26:01 assbot: Beirut Cops Can’t Tell Hipsters From Jihadis -- NYMag

00:27:19 mircea_popescu: moreso than for their parents, trying to do the same out of marx, ziggler, carnegey and whatever other fitness trainers and pop-philosophers the almanacs would print.

00:29:14 mircea_popescu: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/unix-koans/unix-nature.html << not bad, incidentally.

00:29:46 gernika: cazalla might this be related enough to bitcoin to cover?: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-declares-new-currency-will-be-circulated-in-its-bid-to-establish-caliphate-across-syria-and-iraq-9859752.html

00:29:47 assbot: Isis declares new currency will be circulated in its bid to establish caliphate across Syria and Iraq - Middle East - World - The Independent

00:31:39 cazalla: gernika, are you trying to get me arrested for promoting ISIS?

00:31:51 gernika: No

00:31:59 asciilifeform: nah, for promoting gold.

00:32:01 mircea_popescu: lol that bad is it ?

00:32:28 cazalla: mircea_popescu, they kicked down the door of one muslim family for having a plastic sword so yeah

00:32:41 mircea_popescu: nuts

00:33:03 BingoBoingo: Eh, I'll write an ISIS coin article then.

00:34:20 cazalla: gernika, i can't say i'm that interested in promoting altcoins but thanks for the tip

00:36:05 gernika: cazalla are gold and silver altcoins?

00:37:51 gernika: Just seems to run contrary to the usgovmedia claim that ISIS is using bitcoin.

00:37:53 cazalla: gernika, we have bitcoin so yeah, at least personally

00:38:24 mircea_popescu: they've not actually made that claim, have they ?

00:38:30 mircea_popescu: other than gossip

00:38:55 gernika: mircea_popescu you're right - the claim is that it *could* be used by them I suppose.

00:39:06 cazalla: some media claimed so but it was just an ISIS fansite requesting bitcoin donations to pay for hosting

00:39:26 mircea_popescu: clearly terrorist internet funbux then.

00:39:56 asciilifeform: they'd need to find a way to replace ecdsa with an equivalent of caesar's cipher first.

00:40:46 asciilifeform: (who was it who had a piece on how supposed 'enemies of usa' are required, by the laws of god himself, to use idiotically childlike crypto? was it mircea_popescu ?)

00:41:15 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2013/the-danger-of-homebrew-crypto/ that ?

00:41:15 assbot: The danger of homebrew crypto pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

00:41:19 asciilifeform: aha.

00:49:37 jurov: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/patches.html finally something

00:50:00 asciilifeform: 'signed by' ?

00:50:19 jurov: there will be sigs from other people

00:50:24 asciilifeform: i'd suggest showing original patch author's sig also

00:50:32 jurov: also, it will be hyperlinked to messages in archive

00:50:49 jurov: yes, that will be link from "submitted by"

00:50:51 mircea_popescu: o hey nice!

00:50:52 asciilifeform: (one could hypothetically have a patch 'submitted by' mr x but 'signed by' mr y

00:50:55 jurov: the original singature

00:51:03 asciilifeform: or does 'submitted by' always refer to original sig

00:51:12 jurov: mhm ok

00:51:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that anything needs a 1st signature to even be sumitted is not abad design decision

00:51:29 mircea_popescu: well yeah, obviously. right jurov ?

00:52:04 jurov: yes, without 1st sig it won't appear there

00:53:44 jurov: also, ascii as right pentester scattered multiple dots in the filename so it got shortened

00:53:53 asciilifeform: lol!

00:54:02 jurov: it's incredible how he happened to hit multiple bugs at once

00:54:04 mircea_popescu: lmao

00:54:14 thestringpuller: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102183717 << Hahaha

00:54:14 mircea_popescu: maybe he knew what he was doing ?

00:55:01 mircea_popescu: jurov incidentally, gimme the short version, how do i submit to this thing ?

00:55:34 asciilifeform: jurov: i got yet another copy of 'patch' in email. i presume you are turning the knobs as we speak?

00:55:41 jurov: http://ml.therealbitcoin.org/mailman/listinfo/btc-dev "Submitting patches"

00:55:44 mircea_popescu: ty

00:55:46 jurov: can;'t get much shorter

00:56:05 asciilifeform: !up ml.therealbitcoin.org

00:56:08 asciilifeform: damn

00:56:12 asciilifeform: ;;isup ml.therealbitcoin.org

00:56:15 gribble: ml.therealbitcoin.org is down

00:56:15 mircea_popescu: yeah did it just die ?

00:56:34 jurov: therealbitcoin.org/mailman/listinfo/btc-dev

00:56:44 jurov: sry ml. is for internal use only

00:57:21 asciilifeform: someone (who read it!) try signing my patch ?

00:57:32 asciilifeform: see if displays.

00:57:45 mircea_popescu: jurov specifically, is there any way for me to submit signature comments ?

00:58:06 jurov: reply to the thread?

00:58:23 asciilifeform: jurov: how would he (or anyone else) submit a detached sig meant to go with a particular patch ?

00:58:30 asciilifeform: in such a way that it displays under 'signed by'

00:58:41 jurov: by using the file name

00:58:44 mircea_popescu: "Recommended process is to pipe the signed message text directly to mailx or similar client without ambitions." ahahaha gotta love jurov.

00:58:49 jurov: like

00:58:54 asciilifeform: jurov: wouldn't this result in duplicates ?

00:59:00 jurov: wget http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20141112/bitcoin-asciilifeform_a6ada6bb9cebb9540df1fda3465d942a4631d202.2-https_snipsnip.patch

00:59:09 mircea_popescu: jurov but suppose i wish to say "reviewed X part ; Y part outside of my comprehension". can not be done ?

00:59:12 *: asciilifeform does not ever want to read duplicates

00:59:18 jurov: gpg -b bitcoin-asciilifeform_a6ada6bb9cebb9540df1fda3465d942a4631d202.2-https_snipsnip.patch

00:59:48 jurov: it will make blablabla...hexporn.patch.sig

01:00:04 jurov: send this file under this name as attachment

01:00:10 mircea_popescu: so basically, the correct approach here would have been for ascii to make a patch for each individual diff ?

01:00:18 jurov: it pairs the sig to the patch by name

01:00:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have an idea here. if this actually plays out, you would say to me: 'i will not sign X. because i grok X.a but not X.b. please split into two, and i shall sign X.a, or go on to explain to me precisely how X.b works.'

01:00:29 jurov: you mean individual hunks?

01:00:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but what if you communicating with me is impractical ? because say, you're dead.

01:00:49 mircea_popescu: jurov yes.

01:01:02 asciilifeform: well, when i'm dead, someone else (e.g. you) can cut X into X.a and X.b

01:01:16 mircea_popescu: well no, because then all the history is lost.

01:01:16 jurov: mircea_popescu: if stan is dead you'll split it yourself and resend with your sigs

01:01:25 asciilifeform: X.b will sit, as an orphan, inside a comment thread, until the fateful day that someone picks it up, and signs it, and convinces others to.

01:01:29 mircea_popescu: and what of the 500 orher dead people that signed his ?

01:01:32 asciilifeform: aha what jurov said

01:01:34 jurov: i dunno how it can be cryptographically linked

01:02:15 asciilifeform: eventually all signatures belong to the dead.

01:02:19 mircea_popescu: right.

01:02:26 mircea_popescu: so for this reason, all patches must be mononuclear ?

01:02:35 asciilifeform: that was my original suggestion.

01:02:47 asciilifeform: that a patch, a particular one, is a particular identifiable 'thing.'

01:02:59 mircea_popescu: so what happened to the suggestion ?

01:03:09 asciilifeform: e.g., 'here we burn gavin's broadcaster out with hot iron.'

01:03:16 asciilifeform: 'here we remove https.'

01:03:20 jurov: which suggestion?

01:03:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his.

01:03:35 mircea_popescu: oops. jurov asciilifeform's.

01:03:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39845 @ 0.00045202 = 18.0107 BTC [+] {2}

01:03:56 asciilifeform: to be clear, my suggestion concerned how to write patches.

01:04:07 mircea_popescu: anyway, even if they are all mononuclear, there's still semantic value to be had. suppose i wish to say "have read and understood this to do what it says ; have not tested it in fact".

01:04:20 mircea_popescu: should this be verboten, and all or nothing commitment upon signer ?

01:04:43 asciilifeform: this was actually a point i brought up when mircea_popescu said 'one day you shall earn bread by signing code' or something to that effect

01:04:52 jurov: for thi there's the mailman archive

01:04:54 asciilifeform: my question was, that day, 'sign under what'

01:04:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i know.

01:05:17 jurov: otherwise i hve no idea how to put such semantic metainfo in the db

01:05:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you do appreciate the following point : up until and in any case unless one actually had to put his own signature, these matters never have been seriously considered by asnyone.

01:05:32 mircea_popescu: so in that sense, great progress.

01:05:43 asciilifeform: these matters were considered by engineers since hammurabi.

01:05:44 jurov: maybe you want to rate the patch? lol

01:05:47 mircea_popescu: jurov im not even sure it should be there.

01:05:50 jurov: ;;rate -1 sketchy

01:05:50 gribble: Error: 'sketchy' is not a valid integer.

01:06:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i mean specifically about patches to foss.

01:06:16 asciilifeform: aha

01:06:55 mircea_popescu: or for any other system where stuff can be changed / "contributed" by "nobody". but anyway, we digress.

01:07:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do me the courtesy and resubmit as mono patches and then the new ones can win the longer sigchain race with the original one ?

01:07:37 asciilifeform: mono patches?

01:07:46 mircea_popescu: 1 change per patch.

01:07:56 asciilifeform: 1 change as in, 1 line?

01:08:00 jurov: well, the https one is pretty compact

01:08:04 mircea_popescu: shit the hard questions you ask.

01:08:08 *: asciilifeform is a little confused here

01:08:09 mircea_popescu: i dunno ;/

01:08:13 jurov: if it will be shorter, it could not compilke

01:08:16 mircea_popescu: what should "one" mean in this fortran ?

01:08:19 asciilifeform: when i originally suggested 'one change', it was a semantic thing

01:08:30 asciilifeform: as in, 'and here we remove the nuclear detonator'

01:08:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah.

01:08:46 asciilifeform: rather than 'one line of code' (try reading the result!) or somesuch.

01:08:57 mircea_popescu: jurov seems the site needs the extension of a "patch notes" clickable field ?

01:09:08 asciilifeform: in that respect, all of the patches i (and the 2 other fellows) offered so far, are monolithic.

01:09:28 mircea_popescu: and similarly, signatures get a "sig notes" following them, like signed by 01ABFFC7(n) 02ABFFC7(n) etc

01:09:57 jurov: yes, it's in pipeline

01:10:00 mircea_popescu: seems to me this'd resolve all outstanding problems.

01:10:22 asciilifeform: so what will be the convention for submitting 'patch note with sig' ?

01:10:45 mircea_popescu: as to the meaning ?

01:10:51 jurov: put clearsigned note into email body

01:10:54 asciilifeform: also i don't remember if i reminded anyone of this, but unix 'patch' utility is rather braindead.

01:10:57 jurov: or first att

01:11:08 asciilifeform: in that, for example, all of the patches submitted so far will break if one is removed from the chain.

01:11:10 jurov: and detached sig as second att

01:11:25 asciilifeform: (line number idiocy)

01:11:28 mircea_popescu: jurov sample code for mailx in the help file would help a great deal.

01:11:35 mircea_popescu: i know this from the mpex faq days.

01:12:01 jurov: mircea_popescu: gpg --clearsign | mailx btc-dev@therealbitcoin.org

01:12:15 jurov: this needs explicit mention?

01:12:20 mircea_popescu: jurov this handles the attachment scheme you wish to use ?

01:12:38 jurov: oh that, mailx does not handle attachments

01:12:42 asciilifeform: jurov: this is not a working example

01:13:27 mircea_popescu: well if mailx doesn'tdo attachments then why do you suggest people use it to mail you attachments lol.

01:13:38 thestringpuller: ;;ticker

01:13:39 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 410.23, Best ask: 410.66, Bid-ask spread: 0.43000, Last trade: 410.2, 24 hour volume: 49225.83783296, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 419.932867651

01:13:56 jurov: i suggested it for text.. but yes it's dumb

01:15:17 jurov: apparently it actually does with uuencode..okay another todo

01:15:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72350 @ 0.00045058 = 32.5995 BTC [-] {2}

01:16:27 mircea_popescu: anyway, i'd say this is progressing nicely.

01:25:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22574 @ 0.0004444 = 10.0319 BTC [-]

01:30:42 nubbins`: i must not derp. derping is the mind-killer.

01:31:00 nubbins`: derping is the little stupidity that leads to total insolvency

01:31:06 mircea_popescu: lol if this cult thing catches on we can even have derpfessions. "have you derped my son ?"

01:31:12 nubbins`: i will face my derp

01:31:22 nubbins`: i will permit it to pass over me and through me

01:31:27 mircea_popescu: there could be a new disease, the derpes...

01:31:35 asciilifeform: http://static.oper.ru/data/site/obama.png

01:31:37 nubbins`: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

01:31:45 nubbins`: derpes simplex

01:31:50 nubbins`: my actual sides

01:32:15 mircea_popescu: as in, "kissing Arielle Duhaime-Ross will give you herpes, but reading her inanity in the verge will give you derpes"

01:32:16 asciilifeform: (from, naturally, rt: http://russian.rt.com/article/58508#ixzz3IUAu0a71 )

01:32:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wait, what ?!

01:32:51 BingoBoingo: Watch our for the monkeys with Derpes B

01:32:59 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: misprint. they fired the monkey.

01:33:04 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you mean derpes c++ ?

01:33:09 asciilifeform: it was 'osama' originally.

01:33:24 mircea_popescu: oic lol

01:33:36 nubbins`: <jurov> EATS THE TRAILING NEWLINE <<< fwiw deeds eats the trailing \n

01:33:55 nubbins`: srsly, won't verify with it

01:34:19 jurov: nubbins` after the signature?

01:34:24 nubbins`: yes

01:34:27 ben_vulpes: wow did you assholes poop out 1600 lines today?

01:34:30 jurov: interesting

01:34:31 nubbins`: !s deed utils

01:34:32 assbot: 6 results for 'deed utils' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=deed+utils

01:34:39 mircea_popescu: ;;google wasn't me

01:34:39 gribble: Shaggy - It Wasn't Me - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv5fqunQ_4I; It Wasn't Me - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Wasn't_Me; It Wasn't Me Lyrics Shaggy - Genius: http://rap.genius.com/Shaggy-it-wasnt-me-lyrics

01:34:48 jurov: ohai ben_vulpes

01:34:55 jurov: we aren;'t done yet

01:35:00 ben_vulpes: heyo jurov mailthing still ongoing saga?

01:35:09 nubbins`: jurov http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-11-2014#908001

01:35:09 assbot: Logged on 03-11-2014 17:23:14; nubbins`: tool for predicting deed ID of clearsigned file: http://pastebin.com/Ls76h1kd

01:35:20 nubbins`: line 11

01:35:58 jurov: this ended up py base64 decoder bug... deeds don't do anything w/base64 i hope

01:36:15 mircea_popescu: odd

01:36:30 nubbins`: i grab the base64 deed via json when verifying

01:36:37 nubbins`: but it's not necessary to b64 anything

01:36:47 jurov: lol, so upgrade to py 2.7 then

01:36:54 ben_vulpes: hah you guys got nubbins` programming?

01:37:27 nubbins`: 5 years in the trenches, baby

01:37:36 ben_vulpes: (again)?

01:37:42 nubbins`: no. never again.

01:38:09 nubbins`: but try as i may, some parts of my old brain just won't reformat

01:38:40 mircea_popescu: coding is like buttsex, can be enjoyable if well paced.

01:38:46 nubbins`: jurov fwiw some (most?) text editors append a \n at the end of text files

01:38:51 nubbins`: i know pico does

01:39:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also in the permanent deformations of the respective organs.

01:39:20 nubbins`: heh

01:39:27 jurov: nubbins`: but they usually show it (you can move to the new line)

01:39:31 mircea_popescu: that's a myth.

01:39:39 jurov: vim sees '\\\n' but doesn't show it

01:39:43 mircea_popescu: i bet you you can't pikc out butt virgins in a line-up.

01:39:48 *: asciilifeform can only speak for the programming

01:39:49 mircea_popescu: not unless the actual women open up.

01:40:01 nubbins`: jurov true. upon reopening the file it's there

01:40:03 nubbins`: but...

01:40:10 nubbins`: how does one save a text file that doesn't end in \n?

01:40:14 nubbins`: not so easy

01:40:23 ben_vulpes: so does the patchpusher work or not?

01:40:34 mircea_popescu: prototype works, more stuff to be added.

01:40:45 nubbins`: truthfully i wonder if deedbot shouldn't be stripping the trailing \n

01:40:53 mircea_popescu: why ?

01:41:15 nubbins`: ehh

01:41:20 nubbins`: i don't know ;/

01:41:39 mircea_popescu: lmao

01:41:54 mircea_popescu: maybe darcs should strip the trailing \n then ?

01:41:55 nubbins`: why in the fuck do text editors add it in the first place?

01:42:47 nubbins`: mildly amusing that this is the most difficult part of all this stuff, in the meantime

01:43:12 mircea_popescu: yup

01:43:17 undata: nubbins`: some farty unix convention

01:43:22 undata: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/729692/why-should-files-end-with-a-newline

01:43:23 assbot: history - Why should files end with a newline? - Stack Overflow

01:43:45 nubbins`: i assumed it was so if you spat the file out, the bash prompt would be on a new line

01:44:41 undata: everyone in that thread is just saying that they're "supposed to"

01:44:56 mircea_popescu: nubbins` im pretty sure that's what it is.

01:44:59 nubbins`: well i can see what they mean

01:45:12 nubbins`: you dirty a line, you provide a clean one to the next guy

01:45:31 asciilifeform: !s postel's law

01:45:32 assbot: 3 results for 'postel's law' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=postel%27s+law

01:45:43 nubbins`: so maybe deedbot shouldn't be stripping the \n at eof

01:45:48 *: asciilifeform not enamoured with postel's law

01:45:51 nubbins`: punkman ^

01:47:47 nubbins`: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap03.html#tag_03_206

01:47:49 assbot: Definitions

01:49:15 mircea_popescu: !up hank_

01:51:55 asciilifeform: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2826980/Winston-Churchill-s-bid-nuke-Russia-win-Cold-War-uncovered-secret-FBI-files.html << ideal example of 'crank bait' method. perfectly factual allegation, regarded as nearly hundred percent proven by ru historians for decades. 'smoking gun' finally out. what does lizard hitler do? orders it printed in 'daily mail.'

01:51:55 assbot: Winston Churchill's 'bid to nuke Russia' to win Cold War uncovered | Daily Mail Online

01:53:20 asciilifeform: 'what kind of fool would believe document from 'daily mail' ?'

01:53:34 mircea_popescu: the romanian epxression is, "perfidul albion"

01:53:40 asciilifeform: lol!

01:57:41 mircea_popescu: anyway, nothing remarkable there. it's to be used like any other thing.

01:58:38 asciilifeform: as a 'zoologist' of these, can't help but notice the extraordinarily-obvious specimen in the wild.

01:59:17 cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/11/cryptocoinsnews-disable-your-adblocker/

01:59:17 assbot: CryptoCoinsNews: Disable Your Adblocker! | Qntra.net

01:59:53 mircea_popescu: lawl

02:00:22 mircea_popescu: !s David Parker

02:00:23 assbot: 1 results for 'David Parker' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=David+Parker

02:00:30 undata: speaking of unremarkable news: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/13/us-military-considers-troops-iraq-general

02:00:31 assbot: US military considers sending combat troops to battle Isis forces in Iraq | US news | The Guardian

02:00:37 undata: I guess Iraq is the ditch we want to die in

02:00:46 ben_vulpes: yes

02:00:47 ben_vulpes: double down

02:01:04 ben_vulpes: more shellshock in the populace

02:01:13 ben_vulpes: actually probably less cuz drones, n'est?

02:01:40 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/13/eric-frein-terrorism-charges-pennsylvania-police-ambush

02:01:41 assbot: Eric Frein to face terrorism charges over fatal Pennsylvania police ambush | US news | The Guardian

02:01:50 cazalla: mircea_popescu, prolly a fake name, i've searched and searched and there is nothing on this guy

02:01:54 undata: ben_vulpes: this us heading back in with marines

02:01:58 undata: *is us

02:01:59 mircea_popescu: cazalla yeah, it's a fake name.

02:02:10 mircea_popescu: prolly the gaw dude himself.

02:02:27 mircea_popescu: "Charge based on letter by Frein calling for revolution" << :D

02:02:36 undata: ben_vulpes: the classic "just the tip" maneuver

02:03:09 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Seemed inevitable

02:11:56 mircea_popescu: undata the funny part is, the us got so fucking raped in iraq it's hard to describe. now they want to go for round two ?

02:12:13 mircea_popescu: it's impractical, 2000s us could borrow the 50trn they used. 2015s us can not.

02:13:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remaining u.s. physical industry is 99% iraq-based (that is, hardware whose inventory must be churned in some iraq or other.)

02:13:10 asciilifeform: so, gotta churn inventory.

02:13:19 mircea_popescu: it's not inventory unless you can replace it.

02:13:38 mircea_popescu: to make it perfectly clear : any sunk cruiser reduces the total count of cruisers the us will ever have by 1.

02:13:44 mircea_popescu: every downed plane is downed for good.

02:13:48 asciilifeform: those who order the churn, have no concept that there will not be replacement ordered.

02:14:00 mircea_popescu: perpahs.

02:14:23 mircea_popescu: anyway, if anyone has a direct interest in the welfare of the poor grunts involved, like loved ones or w/e :

02:14:34 BingoBoingo: Oh look, its the S.MPOE market cap: https://twitter.com/ScottWuerz/status/533076669419245568

02:14:35 assbot: So much for speculation about no more 10-yr deals. Heyman says MIA taking w/Stanton about a 12-yr, $300 mil deal. How will they afford it?

02:14:41 mircea_popescu: the coming iraq campaign will be the first one the us soldiers will not have enough boots and shit. maybe best enlist for something else.

02:14:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00044459 = 12.6708 BTC [+] {3}

02:15:07 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not the first. i vaguely recall '1 flak jacket for 3 men' in the last one

02:15:11 asciilifeform: mats_cd03 ^^ ?

02:15:13 undata: mircea_popescu: they didn't even have enough armor, etc., last time

02:15:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform flak jackets != boots.

02:15:36 mircea_popescu: yes, trhey were short materiel.

02:15:44 mircea_popescu: this time they will be short toilet paper and toothpaste.

02:16:40 BingoBoingo: I recall they were short on toilet paper and toothpaste last time. I recall solicitations for "care packages" consisting of basic necessities when I was at school.

02:16:56 asciilifeform: saw this, yes

02:17:07 asciilifeform: the one that always got me was the donation box for 'books'

02:17:12 asciilifeform: yes, generic 'books.'

02:17:23 asciilifeform: brought to mind the possibility that these were to be used in lieu of toilet paper.

02:17:35 mircea_popescu: wouldn't that come with a "no bibles please" ?

02:17:45 asciilifeform: they get those from usg.

02:17:56 BingoBoingo: They really do

02:17:57 mircea_popescu: as in, too smooth for use.

02:18:12 asciilifeform: aha.

02:18:17 asciilifeform: and printed on telephone book paper.

02:18:50 mircea_popescu: should be funny to see when the first supposed army uniot goes native.

02:19:14 mircea_popescu: happened to the late romans a whole heck of a lot more than they ever cared to admit

02:19:14 undata: I can't rub two coherent thoughts together that make going back to Iraq a good idea.

02:19:25 undata: mass delusion?

02:19:32 BingoBoingo: I thought that was linked here not too long ago, except they went native at their own station.

02:19:37 mircea_popescu: in fact, it was the premier driver behind the eventual move to mercenaries, something otherwise politically incomprehensible for today's curious student.

02:19:48 undata: so this islamic state consolidates parts of the middle east? that's probably a great thing.

02:19:59 mircea_popescu: but the politicos of the time were caught in the very real vice of "well, rome's poor or the vandals, about as trustworthy"

02:20:10 mircea_popescu: undata not for local women.

02:20:27 asciilifeform: this is why no going native.

02:20:34 undata: mircea_popescu: certainly not. neither is the current circumstance though

02:20:37 asciilifeform: who the hell wants to go native - there.

02:20:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform every young man.

02:20:49 asciilifeform: american?

02:20:59 mircea_popescu: undata women are principally distinguished by a preference for the shit they know.

02:21:04 mircea_popescu: that's actually what womanhood MEANS.

02:21:15 undata: hm.

02:21:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure. think about it : be the gods of their age group ? instead of going home to hear a stupid bitchfest, stay with the people where rape is something you're supposed to do ?

02:21:41 mircea_popescu: why were they in the army in the first place,. to police reddit ?

02:21:49 asciilifeform: to get their teeth done.

02:22:09 mircea_popescu: maybe.

02:22:18 undata: if we see IS as an actual threat, we really must be in sore shape.

02:22:29 mircea_popescu: notice that in a group of 100k idiots, you may end up with a subgroup of 100 or 10 idiots of any particular braindamage you wish.

02:23:01 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> to get their teeth done. << One cousin enlisted for this reason. Now afraid of dentists.

02:23:13 mircea_popescu: i can readily see numerous angles through which retiring from the us military to baghdad rather than kansas is preferable to the 19 yo mind.

02:24:00 mircea_popescu: really, the lucky aspect for the us army officers is that the arabs don't bother to learn english. otherwise, the sheer cultural pressure would probably make "boots on ground" untenable.

02:25:19 asciilifeform: the phase transition may be the point where we leave 'desertion means no more toilet paper' and move to 'desertion means access to toilet paper.'

02:26:02 mircea_popescu: it's already "desertion means leaving a world that you don't understand" and move to "desertion means joining a world you easily do"

02:26:05 asciilifeform: (or more fantastic example - ice cream. i have it on good authority that many american units in iraq were supplied even with it.)

02:26:22 mircea_popescu: lol why wouldn't they be ?!

02:26:40 asciilifeform: because wtf.

02:26:51 mircea_popescu: icecream has been a part of rations since vietnam

02:27:38 asciilifeform: somebody wake up mats_cd03.

02:28:43 asciilifeform: or perhaps he is already being shaved and fitted with new uniform for the next gig.

02:28:56 *: BingoBoingo recalls friend telling stories that when the was in the Infantry every few weeks he'd have to watch the Airforce at his base have friendly BBQ's with thier Afghans

02:29:37 undata: a brother of a friend was in fallujah; I've heard a few of his stories, and they weren't about iced cream.

02:30:38 undata: why "IS"? I'm sure he and others clearing houses of everything that moved didn't help.

02:30:42 BingoBoingo: The spectrum of US Armed forces experiences this past decade is a wide one. The cousin nao afraid of dentist in his whole time enlisted in the marines was either in the US or on a boat.

02:31:53 BingoBoingo: Well, ISI* probably because 'Murica wasn't as scary as Saddam, so Pro Idiotas had room

02:32:58 BingoBoingo: And eventually after some embarrassment they have less ideas and America leaves, then ??? ISIL

02:33:44 BingoBoingo: Pretty much the story of Los Zetas, but in reverse

02:34:53 mircea_popescu: something like that. woman previously married to some hard drinking bozo meets a phthisc young man who's a "student" whatever that may mean. the three quarrel, the kid ends up killing the man, talks the woman up a storm then... leaves ?

02:35:07 mircea_popescu: she's too horny to go to bed so she fucks a coupla passing bums, with disastrous effects.

02:35:51 BingoBoingo: Los Zetas started as a bunch of experts, but finite hit points and now the human shields are in charge and Nuevo Laredo can't have a nice hooker district anymore

02:39:16 mircea_popescu: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/09/201191010256505546.html

02:39:17 assbot: The West's self-licking ice cream cones - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

02:39:21 mircea_popescu: somewhat related.

02:39:31 mircea_popescu: As far as I am aware, the phrase came into usage among knowing observers of the Vietnam War. A self-licking ice cream cone is a programme or policy that costs money and resources, generating a great deal of activity; produces indicators of its own success, preferably quantitative; but does not actually achieve its announced goals. Indeed, a proper self-licking cone undermines the very purposes for which it was created,

02:39:31 mircea_popescu: while at the same time sucking in ever more resources from worthy and effective activities.

02:40:12 cazalla: mircea_popescu: icecream has been a part of rations since vietnam <<< lt dan, icecream!

02:40:57 asciilifeform: self-licking ice cream cone << i learned the phrase from mr. mold, who used it to describe u.s. academia.

02:41:06 mircea_popescu: More targets meant more bombing, and more bombing meant a bigger role for the USAF. The result was more budget, more planes, and career advancement for all concerned.

02:41:07 mircea_popescu: The only problem was that the bombing was helping lose the war. Predictably, the peasants turned against Saigon, leading to the introduction of US ground forces in 1965. Like the ?body count?, the number of ?structures? destroyed had no relation to actually winning the war. It was an indicator of organisational ?success? wholly divorced from reality, and from the values that the organisation was supposed to

02:41:07 mircea_popescu: be serving. The USAF was killing the very peasants it was there to save from communism.

02:41:14 mircea_popescu: pretty much the story of iraq v1 and v2, for that matter.

02:41:33 mircea_popescu: a bureaucracy is history-less, in that it is incapable of learning from its mistakes, just like amoeba is incapable of learning writing.

02:41:41 mircea_popescu: it will follow the sugar gradient and that's all it does.

02:41:43 nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/rOmIAe1.jpg

02:41:52 nubbins`: dat silkscreened photograph

02:42:08 mircea_popescu: nubbins` how much did that run cost ?

02:42:34 mircea_popescu: o nm, it's not a book, it's a poster.

02:43:36 nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/6qVTCuK.jpg close up

02:45:04 nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/04rtgLI.jpg unsuccessful attempt w/ stochastic dots

02:45:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67250 @ 0.00043619 = 29.3338 BTC [-] {3}

02:45:44 *: BingoBoingo remembers publishing a poetry book at a ninety something percent loss. -ISBN-(sample copies)+(~7 dollars in ebook revenue from Austrialia) = Loss, I was enlightened, also a week later on lithium

02:47:12 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo how many sales is 7 bux ?

02:47:56 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: 20 or so I believe. I think on ebooks I got 30%. "Self" publishing is a racket

02:48:13 mircea_popescu: indeed.

02:48:35 BingoBoingo: But I was young, dumb, and in grad school pt. 1

02:49:05 mircea_popescu: unless you actually self publish. asylum ended up costing about 1.40 per copy, printfiles -> distributor warehouse.

02:49:56 BingoBoingo: Yeah. In the aftermath I did the math on, "What if I actually had something worth publishing on tree cadavers"

02:51:53 mircea_popescu: basically, everywhere guis are a racket.

02:52:19 mircea_popescu: when one approaches you with the proposition of "making things easy" what he means is, your wallet. easier to carry.

02:53:03 mircea_popescu: things that can be easy already are. things that aren't easy can't be made "easier". if you can't afford a house, taking credit doesn't make the house easier. etc.

02:53:13 asciilifeform: the great crime of the 'easy self publishing' of today's automagic laser-printer-with-binding-machine is... on the reader.

02:53:46 asciilifeform: not long ago, i opened yet another envelope in expectation of finding 'a book that was actually a book once' and got an ms-word formatted turd

02:53:50 BingoBoingo: Oh, and original resolution of the NL MVP Stanton bet ended up being right. You can have the mods clear out all of that penny sports bet baseball spam nao

02:53:52 asciilifeform: with contents to match.

02:53:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o btw, does the end product of my first foray into that industry suck ?

02:54:06 asciilifeform: it's a riot, actually

02:54:13 asciilifeform: i was thinking of a different envelope.

02:54:15 mircea_popescu: i mean as a product. the thing itself.

02:54:22 mircea_popescu: teh item

02:54:38 mircea_popescu: i ask you for i suspect you've read books before.

02:54:48 asciilifeform: lol

02:55:06 mircea_popescu: (true story, gave one to woman, she's like "oh this is so nice, i've never read a book before!"

02:55:14 mircea_popescu: intending it as a sort of compliment i guess ?)

02:55:16 asciilifeform: ;;google is that a real program or is that something somebody wrote

02:55:17 gribble: Programming Sucks - Still Drinking: http://stilldrinking.org/programming-sucks; Will Smith Quotes (Author of Just the Two of Us) - Goodreads: http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/598671.Will_Smith; How To Become A Hacker - Catb.org: http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

02:55:45 asciilifeform: damn, wish i could find that ancient piece.

02:55:47 *: BingoBoingo was disappointed in the quality of his print on demand turd. The spine was an outie...

02:55:58 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo pod sucked for a long time

02:55:58 BingoBoingo: On a paperback

02:56:05 mircea_popescu: by now it's maibe okish

02:56:19 BingoBoingo: Twas 2009, POD had been a thing for a while

02:56:31 asciilifeform: by now they have it to the level of the crappier mass-produced books.

02:56:41 BingoBoingo: I mean it's solid. I didn't get gyp'd on glue

02:56:46 asciilifeform: still can't get, afaik, 'lay-flats' other than the spiral variety

02:57:00 asciilifeform: lay-flat requires, i think, saddle-stitch binding

02:57:04 asciilifeform: rather than glue

02:58:01 asciilifeform: for what it's worth, i routinely use 'lulu.com' as a personal printer.

02:58:07 asciilifeform: works great.

02:58:08 BingoBoingo: If I were to imagine a serious book piracy operation, the standard glue "Perfect" binding would be prefered

02:58:26 BingoBoingo: Lulu.com was my printer too!

02:58:42 asciilifeform: they have, afaik, the whole thing automated. from 'pdf' to mailing crate.

02:58:51 asciilifeform: quite possibly no human ever even sees the result.

02:59:14 asciilifeform: when i say 'personal printer', i mean, in lieu of an actual printer.

02:59:20 asciilifeform: of the kind one may keep on a desk.

02:59:53 asciilifeform: for instance, i like, e.g., ic data sheets, in dead tree.

03:00:05 BingoBoingo: Ah

03:00:25 asciilifeform: i don't own a computer 'fast' enough to 'flip' a pdf the way a dead tree heap can be flipped, and not sure if such a machine even exists.

03:00:26 mircea_popescu: "Would you drive across this bridge? No. If it somehow got built, everybody involved would be executed. Yet some version of this dynamic wrote every single program you have ever used, banking software, websites, and a ubiquitously used program that was supposed to protect information on the internet but didn't."

03:00:31 mircea_popescu: which is why i am so keen on executions.

03:00:39 asciilifeform: yeah i think we did that one here

03:00:44 asciilifeform: not the article in question though

03:01:00 cazalla: " Earlier in 2014, the SEC investigated Eric Voorhees for the unregistered sale of securities of SatoshiDICE and FeedZeBirds, using the Romanian online crowdsale platform MPEx to solicit investors from 2012 to 2013."

03:01:02 asciilifeform: but for some reason yes, google brings it up for 'real program or something somebody wrote'

03:01:17 BingoBoingo: cazalla: I wrote a piece on that once

03:01:26 mircea_popescu: cazalla let me guess, they sourced it and everything.

03:01:34 mircea_popescu: which is how they got the wrong year.

03:01:39 cazalla: http://www.kattenlaw.com/showadvisory.aspx?Show=47630 if you are interested

03:01:40 assbot: Recent Key Bitcoin and Virtual Currency Regulatory and Law Enforcement Developments | Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP

03:01:49 BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/06/03/the-sec-bares-its-gums-and-settles-with-erik/ cazalla

03:01:49 assbot: The SEC Bares its Gums and Settles with Erik | Bingo Blog

03:02:08 cazalla: BingoBoingo, i've read that, this is just something i come across while looking for news

03:02:19 mircea_popescu: well, i guess this is a good point for anyone considering using Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP : don't.

03:02:37 mircea_popescu: they're too lazy to do their research and sprout nonsense in their pr. imagine the sort of horribru buried in their court filings

03:02:44 BingoBoingo: Oh, so like the think that got shat into news about litecoin mining which was settled last year

03:02:47 mircea_popescu: admitting anyone was to date naive enough to allow them to file on his behalf.

03:04:25 mircea_popescu: anyway, one of those fast food chains of legal practice. high churn, large staff of largely unqualified lawyers on dead end career tracks, whole thing kept together by paralegals, somewhat.

03:04:49 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: found it!! >> https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00184.html

03:04:50 assbot: my evolution as a programmer

03:05:18 asciilifeform: original link dead many years ago, but - mirror.

03:06:03 asciilifeform: (why this was relevant - i will explain later. assuming anyone still cares. and is awake.)

03:07:57 BingoBoingo: I'm awake for a while. Winter came. Interfered with my sleep

03:08:10 nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> unless you actually self publish. <<< preach it

03:08:44 nubbins`: vanity publishing is often a break-even venture at best

03:08:55 mircea_popescu: i'm awake because real cults don't sleep, they wait.

03:09:16 nubbins`: cthulhu fh'tagn

03:09:27 mircea_popescu: nubbins` what i meant was a distinction between self publishing, ie, being the editor, and self-rape, ie, being the customer of an editor specialised in raping idiots.

03:09:48 nubbins`: nod, full agreement here

03:10:22 mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is exactly how hiring a lawyer has worked since at last the 60s

03:10:27 mircea_popescu: and how hiring a doctor is starting to be, too.

03:10:36 nubbins`: you gotta fight for your health here

03:10:46 nubbins`: digging in your heels is the only way

03:11:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you summarily introduce "menu-lookup" writing of glue code for the innocent ?

03:11:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37291 @ 0.00043536 = 16.235 BTC [-]

03:14:45 mircea_popescu: "Is that a real program or is that something somebody wrote?" << ah yea, now this makes sense. i had the exact same notion, for exactly the same reason. a "real program" was something that didn't need to use the z80 basic interpreter, wasn't editable for this reason, and this immutability was cool. then on the msdos system, .exe binaries exactly mapped on this same structure of cool.

03:15:25 BingoBoingo: !up devthedev

03:16:12 nubbins`: the day i realized i could just type spcinvad instead of spcinvad.exe!!

03:17:15 mircea_popescu: i loved deathtrack, and i spent a while finetuning the sound implementation of basic to make the same laser sound.

03:17:31 mircea_popescu: i think in the end i got it, and so i could fire as much as i wanted, no concern for bs "laser heating"

03:18:12 mircea_popescu: then i plugged a led into the serial port and had it blink when i lasered too, and this i think was the pinnacle of achievement.

03:18:24 nubbins`: openbazaar is going to change thzzzzzzz

03:18:52 nubbins`: oo a hud for your laser

03:18:57 nubbins`: nb

03:19:22 mircea_popescu: imagine this, a 12 yo could figure out the serial port interface in ms-dos, without even knowing wtf a port or an interface are.

03:19:40 mircea_popescu: and with a led, mind, which only works on certain voltage going a certain way.

03:24:16 nubbins`: that 12yo must have grown up to be the smartest man alive

03:25:45 mircea_popescu: as it just so happens, that theory is about to get tested.

03:26:00 mircea_popescu: "Write a program that prints the numbers from 1 to 100. But for multiples of three print ?Fizz? instead of the number and for the multiples of five print ?Buzz?. For numbers which are multiples of both three and five print ?FizzBuzz?.

03:27:00 mircea_popescu: for i x to y output + Fizz if i|3 output + Buzz if i|5 output + i if output is empty.

03:27:01 mircea_popescu: do i pass ?

03:29:51 nubbins`: i think if the current smartest man can't say for sure, then yes

03:45:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41600 @ 0.00043724 = 18.1892 BTC [+]

03:47:18 xanthyos: ok i may be wasting my time but i'm going to try to get that guy thomas_d into the wot again tonight

03:47:30 xanthyos: persistence paid off with bagels7

03:50:01 asciilifeform: menu-lookup writing of glue code << refers to systems like the (1990s? no idea if still fits this description) 'visual basic' and the like.

03:50:24 asciilifeform: where gigantic swaths of (hesitate to even call it a) program - get 'written for you'

03:50:41 mircea_popescu: basically i got the idea from reading the piece that he means code that implements the "cut problem into parts, implement parts, glue parts together" approach

03:50:46 asciilifeform: producing buckets upon buckets of boilerplate crud

03:51:09 asciilifeform: aha no. he was speaking of 'glue code' in the sense of gluing heavy 'prefab' swaths together

03:51:23 mircea_popescu: so dreamweaver is an example ?

03:51:23 asciilifeform: something which the archetypical 'indian replacement programmer' occupies himself with.

03:51:32 *: asciilifeform innocent of 'dreamweaver', cannot say

03:51:52 mircea_popescu: adobe "autobuild your website" code

03:51:58 asciilifeform: aha then likely.

03:52:33 mircea_popescu: was famous before mullenderp raped poetry a new hole, because you could tell from all the <hea<he</head>ad>>> mess that it had been used.

03:52:52 mircea_popescu: now those people mostly use wordpress, with PLUGINS

03:52:57 asciilifeform: aha, reminiscent of msword html output.

03:53:05 mircea_popescu: then ben_vulpes is here going "hmm, where the fuck is this nonsense hardcoded in"

03:53:32 *: asciilifeform actually uses a (very threadbare) 'wordpress'

03:53:38 mircea_popescu: me too.

03:53:42 mircea_popescu: or what's left of one.

03:53:47 asciilifeform: ^ yes.

03:53:58 mircea_popescu: makes php better rhan c i guess

03:54:09 mircea_popescu: adobe's shit is written in c, nobody can be bothered to compule it

03:54:26 asciilifeform: adobe never once, afaik, published source for anything

03:54:37 asciilifeform: other than 'alchemy'

03:54:51 asciilifeform: (a crackpot gcc port with... flash (!, yes) back-end)

03:55:13 asciilifeform: that was a real riot, incidentally

03:55:19 asciilifeform: somebody even got 'doom' to build.

03:55:55 asciilifeform: http://peterelst.com/blog/2008/12/18/porting-doom-to-flash-interview-with-mike-welsh

03:55:55 assbot: Porting Doom to Flash - Interview with Mike Welsh — Peter Elst

03:55:58 asciilifeform: ^ that one.

03:56:16 asciilifeform: (why? no one knows! but it was done.)

03:58:59 mircea_popescu: this was leaked in what, 2002 ?

03:59:46 cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/11/david-woo-of-bank-of-america-merrill-lynch-dont-invest-in-bitcoin/

03:59:47 assbot: David Woo Of Bank of America Merrill Lynch: Don't Invest In Bitcoin | Qntra.net

03:59:54 cazalla: ooh, scoopbot is back, wb scoopbot

04:02:29 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/11/david-woo-of-bank-of-america-merrill-lynch-dont-invest-in-bitcoin/

04:03:56 decimation: I could see some sense in a 'delay' in the case that an actual human examines the transactions before they are released

04:04:16 decimation: but in that case it wouldn't be an arbitrary delay enforced by a cron job for no reason

04:05:16 decimation: I remember playing 'doom' on my hp-48 calculator

04:05:21 decimation: someone ported to 'saturn' assembly

04:10:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2891 @ 0.0004336 = 1.2535 BTC [-]

04:17:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54000 @ 0.00043323 = 23.3944 BTC [-] {2}

04:19:19 mircea_popescu: cazalla lulzy quote.

04:19:27 mircea_popescu: will be funny reference in teh future.

04:21:02 PeterL: mrjr:thestringpuller: i'll work on getting my creds in order :) meni rosenfeld is one of our investors, and our cto Shaul Kfir was a reviewer for the sidechain paper. << wasn't Meni Rosenfeld connected with a GLBSE scam?

04:21:06 mircea_popescu: !up cb_bitcoin

04:21:22 mircea_popescu: PeterL from bitdaytrade to whatever you want.

04:21:43 PeterL: perhaps not the best name to drop as WoT cred?

04:22:03 mircea_popescu: guy specialises in vouching for scams, he's a sort of max keiser for his space.

04:22:15 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, what ever happened to aurora coin ? has it passed ethereum yet ?

04:24:09 mircea_popescu: "So no, I'm not required to be able to lift objects weighing up to fifty pounds. I traded that for the opportunity to trim Satan's pubic hair while he dines out of my open skull so a few bits of the internet will continue to work for a few more days."

04:24:26 mircea_popescu: heh. alternatively, just don't write dumbass ajax websites for monkeys. big fucking deal, srsly.

04:25:00 BingoBoingo: "You can't arrest me. I'm the Cake Boss" http://4.nbcny.com/SGgcUl1

04:25:01 assbot: TLC's "Cake Boss" Arrested on DWI Charges in Manhattan: NYPD | NBC New York

04:26:37 asciilifeform: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/NYC-New-York-Hasidic-Jewish-Arrests-Mortgage-Fraud-FBI-Orange-County-282544591.html << more interesting

04:26:37 assbot: NY Family Accused of Taking Out $20 Million in Mortgages While Collecting Food Stamps | NBC New York

04:27:23 mircea_popescu: how is this an accusation ?

04:29:06 mircea_popescu: a ok, fraud.

04:29:29 asciilifeform: real question: in which direction.

04:29:53 mircea_popescu: In one instance, one of Rubin's relatives claimed weekly income of $200 to get Medicaid and food stamps while claiming a net worth of $10 million to banks in order to get $7 million in loans.

04:30:02 mircea_popescu: this is presented as contradictory, but it actually isn't.

04:30:03 asciilifeform: i.e., borrowing $20m while broke and on food stamps? or fraudulently collecting food stamps while bathing in $20m bezzlars.

04:30:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think one can genuinely be both simultaenously in the us atm.

04:30:25 asciilifeform: 'is it rape if the check bounced?'

04:30:32 mircea_popescu: much like 1990 russian megacorps.

04:30:47 asciilifeform: i imagine we will see

04:30:58 asciilifeform: my guess is - yes, both.

04:35:55 decimation: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/us/cuts-in-military-mean-job-losses-for-career-staff.html?_r=0 << usg is broke, decides to 'fire' army officers rather than cut back food stamps

04:35:58 assbot: Log In - The New York Times

04:37:04 decimation: although to be precise, the way the military 'fires' officers is more of a 'pocket veto' - if you fail to make the cut for promotion (at higher grades) you are automatically discharged

04:37:16 asciilifeform: used to be called, 'cachiering'

04:38:27 mircea_popescu: http://qntra.net/2014/11/bip-65-revisiting-nlocktime/ << the problem with this is that if a miner doesn't implement the new protocol, and mines a block in spite of the supposed nlocktime lock, that block is well spent.

04:38:27 assbot: BIP-65: Revisiting nLockTime | Qntra.net

04:38:48 mircea_popescu: so a softfork does not in fact do anything, the dblspending party can just mine their own dblspend and that's that.

04:39:41 decimation: wait, they decide protocol details on twitter now?

04:39:55 BingoBoingo: Actual soft for yes, but "if all the miners accept" softfork is a hardfork

04:39:56 asciilifeform: for those who missed, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#920112

04:39:56 assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 19:04:36; *: asciilifeform admits that he suspects bip64 of being a plot to create usg-like bonds in btc. folks will be asked to trace X proper btc for X+epsilon 'locked' ones that are to land back in their pocket 'in the future', should they live long enough, but are actually recovable 'because this is how the world works'

04:40:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56873 @ 0.00044346 = 25.2209 BTC [+] {2}

04:40:52 decimation: oh wait, I thought the delays that the scammer was writing about were simply 'private delays' on the part of the machine

04:41:03 mircea_popescu: Proving sacrifice to miners' fees

04:41:03 mircea_popescu: Proving the sacrifice of some limited resource is a common technique in a variety of cryptographic protocols. Proving sacrifices of coins to mining fees has been proposed as a universal public good to which the sacrifice could be directed, rather than simply destroying the coins. However doing so is non-trivial, and even the best existing technqiue - announce-commit sacrifices - could encourage mining centralization. C

04:41:03 mircea_popescu: HECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can be used to create outputs that are provably spendable by anyone (thus to mining fees assuming miners behave optimally and rationally) but only at a time sufficiently far into the future that large miners profitably can't sell the sacrifices at a discount.

04:41:05 decimation: They want to bake it into the protocol? That's fuckin nuts

04:41:11 mircea_popescu: this is perhaps the most braindamaged nonsense i read today.

04:41:27 mircea_popescu: desperately needs more "expert" economists and whatnot.

04:41:50 decimation: "universal public good"

04:41:53 mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> Actual soft for yes, but "if all the miners accept" softfork is a hardfork << "all miners accept" means what ?

04:41:57 mircea_popescu: until a new miner joins ?

04:42:47 decimation: re: experts: http://rwcg.wordpress.com/2014/11/13/id-rather-have-this-bill-than-not-dictated-the-professor/

04:42:49 assbot: “I’d rather have this bill than not”, dictated the Professor | RWCG

04:43:06 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Means old clients accept giberish, but miners actually hardfork if a "time locked" signature is mined early

04:43:40 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo only workls for as long as they actually do.

04:43:55 mircea_popescu: tomorrow large miner joins, doesn't implement it, they hardfork all they want, chainwarz.

04:44:18 mircea_popescu: peppering this sort of nonsense in the code is a prime way to ensure the rough equivalent of "atomic weapons" for future negotiations.

04:44:26 mircea_popescu: "give us your daugther or we fork it" sort of bs.

04:45:01 BingoBoingo: Well, https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2i6pz0/peter_todds_checklocktimeverify_means_bitcoin/cm0liy8 seems not to be popular with the redditards, but on blocksizefork Bitpay has an incentive to choose the shitgnome side and face punishment

04:45:02 assbot: Atruk comments on Peter Todd's CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY Means Bitcoin Escrow, Refunds and a Fork

04:45:58 mircea_popescu: "It all traces back to the fact that the academy did not police itself properly. They gave, or through their inaction/laziness allowed to get, this guy and his (retarded) output the mantle of ?expertise?. If the bad PR spilling off of him now redounds back onto other academicians in his peer group I understand that will be unfair in some cases but they have only themselves to blame."

04:46:01 mircea_popescu: it is not unfair in any case.

04:46:04 BingoBoingo: Because of course Vessenes' foundation wants bigger blocks when its only surviving members that pay it need bigger blocks

04:46:11 mircea_popescu: they should all hang for his sins. he may get off with prison, being just a fraud

04:46:21 mircea_popescu: but the actual professionals should hang, by their own guts.

04:46:41 decimation: yeah the author doesn't go far enough

04:47:54 mircea_popescu: "Seriously, I bet the ?model? is some kind of gunky spreadsheet. Or something little better, anyway. A mishmash of data being shoved together to reach predetermined conclusions, with tons of ad hoc assumptions. " << sounds like exactly dub's brew :D

04:48:05 decimation: I would bet money on that too

04:48:07 mircea_popescu: but hey, who's to argue with the politico-experts, right ?

04:48:08 decimation: he should start a bitbet

04:48:45 asciilifeform: in other news...

04:48:47 asciilifeform: '...in one case, the discovery that the crews that maintain the nation?s 450 intercontinental ballistic missiles had only a single wrench that could attach the nuclear warheads. ?They started FedExing the one tool? to three bases spread across the country, one official familiar with the contents of the reports said Thursday. No one had checked in years ?to see if new tools were being made,? the offici

04:48:47 asciilifeform: al said. This was one of many maintenance problems that had ?been around so long that no one reported them anymore.?'

04:48:58 asciilifeform: ( http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/us/politics/pentagon-studies-reveal-major-nuclear-problems.html )

04:49:01 assbot: Log In - The New York Times

04:49:15 BingoBoingo: I could seriously imagine the chinese miners being coerced to oppose a USGaving blocksize increase simply because it hurts the payment processors. Bezelzebub bless the triad of mutual enemies working together for our success!

04:49:35 decimation: asciilifeform: supposedly that socket wrench that destroyed the missile in the silo in arkansas was 'ilegal'

04:49:40 decimation: now you know why

04:50:04 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo anyway, all the more reasons to have a proper, functional implementation of the canonical bitcoin code

04:50:13 mircea_popescu: for all these idiots to fall back on once the shit hits the fan.

04:50:33 decimation: yeah, if anything it's sewing ascii's parachute before being needed

04:50:40 BingoBoingo: Indeed, but also a factor that will provide the catalyst for the acceptance of Venetian Bitcoind

04:50:40 mircea_popescu: meanwhile they can all hold hands with the canada chick and chant how "bitcoin is not coming and not posing a risk"

04:50:54 mircea_popescu: noably, romania's president announced in 2009 that "criza financiara va ocoli romania"

04:51:03 mircea_popescu: literally, the crisis will go around romania.

04:51:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40904 @ 0.00044601 = 18.2436 BTC [+] {2}

04:51:39 decimation: mircea_popescu: you mean that julia character

04:51:48 mircea_popescu: w/e her name is.

04:51:57 mircea_popescu: was on qntra earlier, which is the only reason she's notable.

04:52:22 mircea_popescu: http://qntra.net/2014/11/bank-of-canada-bitcoin-poses-no-risk-but-well-watch-it-closely-anyway/

04:52:23 assbot: Bank of Canada: Bitcoin Poses No Risk But We'll Watch It Closely Anyway | Qntra.net

04:52:27 mircea_popescu: Carolyn Wilkins

04:53:05 decimation: ah her

04:53:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29318 @ 0.00044997 = 13.1922 BTC [+]

04:53:44 mircea_popescu: !t m s.mpoe

04:53:44 assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00036402 / 0.00045973 / 0.00056765 (1289039 shares, 592.62 BTC), 7D: 0.00036402 / 0.00058749 / 0.00068888 (6013699 shares, 3,533.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00036402 / 0.00070655 / 0.00081111 (22518580 shares, 15,910.69 BTC)

04:54:11 BingoBoingo: https://www.quantcast.com/qntra.net << At this point in qntra's age I'm not disliking the sawtooth pattern.

04:54:12 assbot: Qntra.net Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast

04:54:38 decimation: I had a conversation today about some guy who knew a guy who bought a house for $200k in california in 2002 and sold for $700k in 2006

04:54:44 BingoBoingo: Also... Qntra's in the top quarter million nao

04:55:09 mircea_popescu: decimation that's pretty meta...

04:55:20 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yeah seems to be revving up nicely.

04:55:48 decimation: so this guy profits... and the 'taxpayer' picks up the $$bn bill for freddie mac and implicit bank guarantees

04:56:08 decimation: my point being, does bitcoin represent a 'threat' to this arrangement?

04:56:35 BingoBoingo: decimation: I don't think so. Nothing is more fashionable than location.

04:58:52 mircea_popescu: decimation depends. can he do it on your 0.1% ?

04:58:56 decimation: real estate will always be an asset - but the bezzle freshly printing to fund it won't

04:59:17 mircea_popescu: the major point about low taxes is that it makes the pot of the public treasury too small to hold the estimation of the conman

04:59:24 mircea_popescu: and so the conman moves to try adn con private interest.

04:59:32 mircea_popescu: whereas when taxes are significant, the opposite happens.

04:59:43 decimation: that's a good point

05:00:08 decimation: at least with private cons, the damage is likely to be limited and obvious in scope, rather than 'socialized'

05:00:09 mircea_popescu: but in general : it is good that any one person steals any one sum from the usg.

05:00:16 mircea_popescu: this is dead money being returned to live hands.

05:00:42 decimation: mircea_popescu: there are genuine people with genuine skills who spend their entire lives attempting to make usg better

05:00:55 mircea_popescu: the word for this is "idiots"

05:01:07 mircea_popescu: in general, the country suffers when taxes are paid, and gains through graft.

05:01:29 PeterL: http://bablogs.btcscoop.com

05:01:31 assbot: #bitcoin-assets blog posts

05:01:42 PeterL: ^ how does that look?

05:02:34 mircea_popescu: great actually

05:02:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40350 @ 0.00045856 = 18.5029 BTC [+] {2}

05:03:16 BingoBoingo: PeterL: Looks good, think you are missing Ben Fox's blog and maybe a couple others.

05:03:36 PeterL: sure, I can add more

05:03:48 PeterL: links?

05:04:04 BingoBoingo: PeterL: The look, the styling... simply beautiful http://cascadianhacker.com/index.html

05:04:05 assbot: missives from the post-megastate frontier

05:04:08 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/people-have-made-blogs/

05:04:08 assbot: People have made blogs pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

05:04:12 decimation: mircea_popescu: I would agree with the 'idiot' label - but you realize that this 'catches' at least 95% of humanity - who generally refuse to consider their position w.r.t. the entire world's (and history's) context

05:04:17 mircea_popescu: PeterL also could you make it so only say first 100 words of a post appear ?

05:04:31 mircea_popescu: decimation soooooo

05:04:46 mircea_popescu: fizzbuzz test is supposed to catch 99.5% of "programmers" too neh ?

05:04:48 PeterL: mircea_popescu: I am grabbing the summary, most of them are pretty short

05:04:50 mircea_popescu: nobody ever criticised it for this.

05:05:16 mircea_popescu: PeterL fixed max helps the skim reader

05:05:35 PeterL: sure

05:05:45 *: mircea_popescu asking for a friend.

05:08:04 PeterL: BingoBoingo: cascadianhacker apparently doesn't have a working feed, but I could add it to the list on the right

05:08:27 BingoBoingo: PeterL: Well... I think Ben Fox hosts his blog on emacs

05:08:37 mircea_popescu: lol ben_vulpes the post is the feed eh ?

05:10:34 decimation: mircea_popescu: what stripped down version of wordpress do you use?

05:10:38 decimation: do you update it?

05:11:18 mircea_popescu: i dunno, and nope.

05:11:27 BingoBoingo: decimation: I think I've asked him before. He doesn't update though. He simply patches.

05:11:41 mircea_popescu: not in the past 6 months at least, no.

05:12:30 *: BingoBoingo wishes more software would go the errata+patches route

05:12:36 mircea_popescu: bout 5-6 years ago i had an actual major portal site, dtng (the 4chan clone) was on it, also fain (a romanian digg) and my blog and a bunch of other shit

05:13:08 mircea_popescu: at the time i had a full complement of php coder guru types, threw in "make me a better wp" in a worklist once and well...

05:13:15 decimation: BingoBoingo: well, redhat pretty much operates this way

05:13:31 decimation: rhel has slowly gone downhill over the past few years - becoming more 'poetterized'

05:13:41 BingoBoingo: decimation: Not really. RedHat still has updates. Red Hat's antithesis though...

05:13:54 mircea_popescu: dja mean anathema ?

05:13:55 decimation: one can inspect the patches, if one is willing to sit down and do the work

05:13:59 BingoBoingo: decimation: Well Red Hat hired Poettering

05:14:19 BingoBoingo: I imagine they saw the quick cash the microshit model brings

05:14:46 mircea_popescu: how did that quote go

05:15:02 decimation: well, when money is literally handed out to idiots via gov't programs, tricking idiots into forking over is a great business model

05:15:08 mircea_popescu: "Government sponsored enterprises enter the business, in due course bad behavior is made mandatory, and the evil financial network is bigger than the honest financial network, with the result that even though everyone knows what is happening, people continue to use the paper issued by the evil financial network, because of network effects - the big, main issuers, are the issuers you use if you want to do business."

05:15:20 decimation: yeah that

05:15:42 mircea_popescu: same shit, so foss starts, great, get rhel to be a pentagon contractor.

05:15:47 mircea_popescu: not because you want to use their code

05:15:52 mircea_popescu: but specifically because you do not want to.

05:15:56 mircea_popescu: soon enough...

05:16:26 mircea_popescu: the exact sort of thing that would render a us expeditionary force if the arabs but spoke english, is the exact thing that renders the "well meaning" idiots you mentioned earlier

05:16:32 mircea_popescu: because the bureaucracy DOES speak english.

05:16:40 decimation: I remember those heady days, when it was thought that it wouldn't be possible to 'make money' off of foss

05:16:50 decimation: now I wish the money would go away

05:16:55 mircea_popescu: it would have been, if someone added bitcoin to pgp

05:17:01 mircea_popescu: and pushed the holy trifecta through

05:17:03 mircea_popescu: but who ?

05:17:07 decimation: RMS

05:17:08 decimation: lol

05:17:14 mircea_popescu: people tend to be very laudative of the people that were smart, at any juncture

05:17:26 mircea_popescu: nobody ever goes "you shitfaces, THIS opportunity you missed. all of you."

05:17:33 BingoBoingo: Ah, the great thing about PGP is that GPG 1.4x fork won

05:17:45 mircea_popescu: well, except for terrorist me, of course, in a piece about romania's 80s generation. but that's besides the point.

05:17:57 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> nobody ever goes "you shitfaces, THIS opportunity you missed. all of you." << My brother the dentist does if you get him drunk.

05:18:03 decimation: yeah actually bitcoin is a great example of the link I posted yesterday, about technologies that *should* have been invented in the past but were not

05:18:06 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo that's not happenstance. that shit will happen again and again because it happened for fundamental reasons.

05:18:22 mircea_popescu: stan's fork will win the bitcoin through the same interplay of the same cosmic forces.

05:18:53 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: The problem I when he presents it is that not everyone wants to marry a large SJW, even if it means the dog you get in exchange is adorable

05:19:29 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo larger problem : men don't generally get that they have the god fucking given right to say "fuck you and get lost"

05:19:42 mircea_popescu: "door's that way" and variations thereof.

05:19:47 asciilifeform: obligatory naggum: 'suppose you thought of the new millennium when you wrote your application back in 1972 -- not only wouldn't you be invited to the party, those who knew you had done it right from the start and who probably laughed at you at the time would positively hate you now, and they sure as hell wouldn't tell people about you. and the more stupid they are, the more important it would be to pretend tha

05:19:47 asciilifeform: t nobody was smart enough to see the next millennium coming.'

05:19:55 mircea_popescu: prolly because only trolls and terrorists do that or something.

05:20:10 BingoBoingo: Indeed. Yes dentist brother gets his $600 bezzel per working day, but youngest brother for some reason doesn't share dentist brother's deviance.

05:20:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this millenium, nobody actually saw. perhaps an excusable oversight, but still ridoinculous.

05:20:35 mircea_popescu: bitcoin + pgp + foss would have been a much better alternative past than fucktarded "flower power"

05:20:45 joecool: !s dentist

05:20:46 assbot: 45 results for 'dentist' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=dentist

05:21:35 decimation: indeed it makes RMS's retarded diatribes look more retarded

05:21:47 BingoBoingo: Dentist brother is an absolute hoot around marine cousins though, with their memories of ship board dentistry

05:22:20 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: But tis is the past!

05:22:21 mircea_popescu: decimation that passion could have served a smarter man better you know ?

05:23:31 mircea_popescu: anyway, no point crying over the mud-like stupidity of our parents.

05:23:52 mircea_popescu: fuck them, move on, plenty of time left in the future to do important shit.

05:23:55 BingoBoingo: The newest past was born in January 2013

05:24:51 BingoBoingo: The TiDerps were slain, righteous had a path, and Bitcoin was cemented in the following months

05:36:27 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2014/11/isis-introduces-coins/

05:36:54 BingoBoingo: ^ ISIL Coin

05:38:44 mircea_popescu: http://jim.com/ << the page of the author of the prev quote, one James A. Donald

05:38:45 assbot: James's Liberty file collection index

05:39:36 mircea_popescu: (with http://anarchism.pageabode.com/anarcho/reign.html )

05:39:36 assbot: James A. Donald's Reign of Error | Anarchist Writers

05:41:28 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

05:41:55 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 393.93, vol: 48451.68950503 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 387.0, vol: 27136.32982 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 392.0, vol: 133267.08674263 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 393.05, vol: 44.95610677 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 389.424576, vol: 602246.15620000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 395.0, vol: 76.28428452 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 396.52026, vol: 218.25432093 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

05:42:36 BingoBoingo: I wonder how long the Chinese will suffer Buterin's Waterfall before forcing a showdown on the matter of STFUSA

05:44:31 BingoBoingo: Nao just feels so much like 11/12

05:46:13 BingoBoingo: Or when Nixon banished the rest of the press corps so he could talk to Hunter S. Thompson about football

05:46:51 asciilifeform: http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/04/f14/Volume%201%20NNSA.pdf << mega-turd. i don't expect that anyone will read it. but i did. and will relate, how obscenely it brags about the extraordinary bezzle of the u.s. 'national ignition facility'

05:47:24 asciilifeform: where, for no reason that has ever been publicly explained, laser-initiated fusion is diddled

05:47:36 asciilifeform: to no result, as far as is known, ever, at any point

05:48:01 asciilifeform: real reason: it is an extraordinarily expensive, multi-generational project to keep the entire field from developing.

05:48:24 BingoBoingo: How many cover pages do they need

05:49:06 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: to cut to the chase, grep for 'ignition'

05:49:37 asciilifeform: incidentally, this document is a fine example of the kind of stereotypically-bureaucratic style of writing usg runs on.

05:49:48 asciilifeform: almost a 'newspeak'

05:52:27 BingoBoingo: !up u00

05:59:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71422 @ 0.00044167 = 31.545 BTC [-]

06:00:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8778 @ 0.00044497 = 3.9059 BTC [+]

06:02:42 BingoBoingo: !up dgeats

06:02:54 dgeats: ty

06:03:20 dgeats: ;;eregister dgeats 1A76 4B0F 58BF 87CB C03D 5A4E A6D2 72BC 41B0 824A

06:03:20 gribble: Error: '1A76' is not a valid GPG key id. Please use the long form 16 digit key id.

06:04:10 dgeats: ;;eregister dgeats A6D272BC41B0824A

06:04:12 gribble: Error: Could not retrieve your key from keyserver. Either it isn't there, or it is invalid.

06:07:18 BingoBoingo: Ah

06:07:26 BingoBoingo: The perils of the first time

06:10:24 BingoBoingo: !up bagels7

06:10:25 dgeats: BingoBoingo I feel like I’m putting my private keys and passwords EVERYWHERE

06:10:46 dgeats: aren’t they supposed to be private!!?

06:11:24 BingoBoingo: dgeats: PM, I'll halp troubleshoot to a point, but yes. Private keys stay private. If one of those strings you entered is a private key... Generate a new keypair.

06:11:28 dgeats: dude I’ve been trying for over a week

06:11:50 BingoBoingo: dgeats: PM, I'll walk you through.

06:17:28 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker

06:17:30 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 392.06, Best ask: 392.95, Bid-ask spread: 0.89000, Last trade: 392.95, 24 hour volume: 48213.33310422, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 414.170513306

06:21:03 dgeats: In the WoT I’m in the WoT hello bitcoin-assets!!!

06:21:12 BingoBoingo: ;;ident dgeats

06:21:13 gribble: Nick 'dgeats', with hostmask 'dgeats!~user@173.219.118.98', is not identified.

06:21:28 BingoBoingo: Edward James Almost?

06:21:29 dgeats: dammit!

06:21:51 dgeats: ok I’ll go back to lurking

06:23:59 BingoBoingo: dgeats: No, finish your fucking registration. You needed help, help is offered, get this shit over with while someone has patience.

06:24:04 BingoBoingo: !up tryphe

06:24:35 dgeats: I’m definitely still trying searching through my open tabs on where to start

06:24:53 BingoBoingo: !up vexual

06:25:11 BingoBoingo: dgeats: Well, you could always ask vexual

06:25:25 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

06:25:54 RagnarDanneskjol: http://www.contravex.com/2014/09/23/please-to-pgp-guide-for-linux-os-x-windows/

06:25:55 assbot: Please To PGP (Guide for Linux, OS X, Windows) | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski

06:25:55 dgeats: Vexual is this a PM?

06:26:11 BingoBoingo: dgeats: This is main channel

06:26:43 dgeats: familiar with that page

06:27:20 dgeats: so I’m going to go to the GPG Keychain again and get another pair of keys?

06:28:40 BingoBoingo: dgeats: Are you familiar with http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/pgpgpg-guide/

06:28:41 assbot: PGP/GPG Guide | Bingo Blog

06:29:16 BingoBoingo: And http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication

06:29:18 assbot: GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki

06:30:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26011 @ 0.00043228 = 11.244 BTC [-]

06:32:41 dgeats: BingoBoingo Not as familiar with your blog, I’ll read through it

06:34:17 BingoBoingo: !up dgeats

06:41:03 BingoBoingo: !up RetroUpriser

06:41:07 BingoBoingo: !up bagels7

06:41:14 RetroUpriser: Hello

06:41:16 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker

06:41:17 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 394.63, Best ask: 394.99, Bid-ask spread: 0.36000, Last trade: 393.77, 24 hour volume: 48234.83273786, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 453.92, 24 hour vwap: 414.033997412

06:41:18 BingoBoingo: Hallo

06:41:35 RetroUpriser: Is there a market for overnight shipping of raw milk?

06:41:47 RetroUpriser: Its only legal to buy in CT

06:41:48 Vexual: I reckon

06:42:08 RetroUpriser: and for, ahem, generous donations, id be willing to send some raw milk

06:42:11 Vexual: plenty of hipsters

06:43:09 Vexual: what whats CT? kentucky?

06:43:13 BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: I'm not a big fan of Brucellosis

06:43:23 BingoBoingo: Vexual: CT is connecticut

06:43:36 Vexual: oh

06:44:15 BingoBoingo: !up CheckDavid

06:44:35 BingoBoingo: !up Ginux

06:45:08 thestringpuller: Hartford, CT my birthplace

06:45:10 BingoBoingo: The number of Homo genus members that acquires Brucellosis in Brucellosis free states amuses me

06:46:00 RetroUpriser: Anyone getting Brucellosis in a Brucellosis free state should be funny

06:46:43 BingoBoingo: Happens more often than you might suspect

06:47:35 Vexual: is it bad?

06:47:57 BingoBoingo: Vexual: Can be very bad

06:48:42 RetroUpriser: If you have no access to modern medicine

06:49:34 BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: Even if. The responsible bacteria produces a good number of toxis so an antibiotic killing it creates a peak exposure to those during treatment

06:50:03 RetroUpriser: And i wouldnt say raw milk is the #1 way to contract it

06:50:31 BingoBoingo: Far from it, raw milk and beastiality are the only real ways to contract it

06:50:36 RetroUpriser: Which wont cause much damage unless your a pregnant woman

06:50:48 RetroUpriser: undercooked meat i'd say.

06:51:08 BingoBoingo: Oh, Brucellosis mostly kills peds patients

06:51:20 RetroUpriser: You should just avoid low quality food products.

06:51:25 RetroUpriser: in general.

06:51:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38850 @ 0.00044708 = 17.3691 BTC [+] {2}

06:51:36 BingoBoingo: Indeed

06:52:02 RetroUpriser: But in the same sense, avoid all natural probiotic foods because they could be contaminated with harmful bacteria?

06:52:07 Vexual: raw milk is used for some cheeses perhaps?

06:52:29 RetroUpriser: No doubt, but so is pasturized milk.

06:53:05 BingoBoingo: Well the thing is something cultured with the right stuff doesn't give the wrong stuff the chance to live and you can tell by smell. It's why cheese and yogurt are safe but raw milk is a highway to the dangerzone

06:53:45 RetroUpriser: But no more than eating a medium rare steak from the cow producing it

06:53:45 Vexual: I have half a recolection that some chesse recipies prefer raw

06:54:09 RetroUpriser: But yeah the good bacteria will fight the bad

06:54:30 BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: Generally in a steak if there was a pathogen of conern you'd see/smell the abcess and wonder then the cow got into a knife fight

06:55:19 RetroUpriser: So you'd think but i'm sure that isn't the case alot of the time

06:55:31 BingoBoingo: On the otherhand it isn't the slightest bit unbelievable for a dairy cow to drag its titties through cow shit

06:55:40 RetroUpriser: Would you smell it in the raw milk?

06:55:55 BingoBoingo: In raw milk you often can't smell it.

06:56:20 RetroUpriser: Right, im sure there are alot of cases where meat could be infected and not show the slightest sign of it

06:57:04 BingoBoingo: Which is why if the milk was raw yu want it in already fermented products where either dangerous smells would be stronger or the product wouldn't appear right. Milk itself is dangerous though.

06:57:29 RetroUpriser: Bottom line is that you shouldn't expose yourself to unclean products when you know they are of shady origin. But when you have a local farm that you can check out and see its sanitary conditions yourself.. it takes alot of the risk out of the picture.

06:57:31 BingoBoingo: Meat usually isn't so bad because there's less vulnerable surface area than milk

06:57:58 RetroUpriser: I suppose, but im a huge fan so the risk < reward

06:58:28 BingoBoingo: In milk generally all of the protein and fat globules contribute to surface area

06:58:40 RetroUpriser: I mean, i wouldn't be drinking raw milk from walmart brand cows

06:58:42 BingoBoingo: I mean the surface is better defined by... solidity

07:22:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: real reason: it is an extraordinarily expensive, multi-generational project to keep the entire field from developing. <<< what sense does that make ?

07:24:52 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo they don't have endemic brucellosis in the us anymore do they ?!

07:26:05 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Not in any animal herds, but somehow children still get it

07:26:55 mircea_popescu: maybe it's from the us weapons stockpile.

07:27:07 BingoBoingo: Basically for all of the expense and derping, USDA can't actually guarentee its own guarentees

07:27:20 mircea_popescu: that's a thing nixon is never remembered for, ending the biological warfare stockpiles.

07:27:41 mircea_popescu: hadn't he done so, you'd probably have heard spineless gonzalez, bharara et all argue for the legitimacy of their use.

07:28:35 mircea_popescu: anyway, romania is a few of the european states that never had it. along with, iirc, switzerland.

07:29:49 BingoBoingo: Last I heard, USia was spicing up 9-11 with bioweapons own goals

07:31:49 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo: RetroUpriser: Generally in a steak if there was a pathogen of conern you'd see/smell the abcess and wonder then the cow got into a knife fight << nah, most of the stuff youi can get that way you don't see.

07:32:10 mircea_popescu: trichinella is a fucking worm you still won't likely see it.

07:32:40 BingoBoingo: You see that more in pork than beef

07:33:35 mircea_popescu: sure.

07:33:53 mircea_popescu: beef is safer than most meats, but still. you dun see the stuff.

07:35:28 BingoBoingo: I mean the reason to avoid rare-ish ground beef is more sloppy meatcutters opening the colon than anything else

07:35:32 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo: On the otherhand it isn't the slightest bit unbelievable for a dairy cow to drag its titties through cow shit <<< im pretty sure nobody milks unwashed anymore.

07:35:34 mircea_popescu: for decades now.

07:36:57 BingoBoingo: You would think so, but in USia it isn't possible to pay enoug for a farmhand who cares to

07:38:06 BingoBoingo: I mean over here we grow fucking Dent corn for the sugar and actual sweet corn as a table vegetable

07:38:17 mircea_popescu: look at that, nif claims it actually went energy-positive last year

07:38:19 mircea_popescu: i had nfi.

07:38:54 *: BingoBoingo is enjoying the Sauds playing their version of Buterin's waterfall atm

07:41:16 *: BingoBoingo hasn't seen gas this cheap since 2010.

07:41:41 BingoBoingo: Not regularly this cheap pre-2009 in some years

07:42:19 BingoBoingo: Though winter of 2009 was beautiful with sub $2 per gallon gasoline.

07:43:57 mircea_popescu: how much is it now ?

07:44:50 BingoBoingo: $2.69

07:45:25 mircea_popescu: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/192126-lockheed-says-itll-make-a-truck-sized-fusion-reactor-within-10-years << and from the bold claims department...

07:45:27 assbot: Lockheed says it’ll make a truck-sized fusion reactor within 10 years | ExtremeTech

07:45:49 mircea_popescu: he reduced size ? just 10 feet by 7 feet ? will allow Lockheed to ?design, build, and test the CFR in less than a year.?

07:46:01 mircea_popescu: how the fuck is a miniaturized version easier is beyond me.

07:47:09 BingoBoingo: I guess fuckups are easier to insure on a smaller reactor?

07:47:44 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

07:47:52 BingoBoingo: Vexual: Y u no blog yet???

07:48:24 mircea_popescu: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191754-cold-fusion-reactor-verified-by-third-party-researchers-seems-to-have-1-million-times-the-energy-density-of-gasoline

07:48:25 assbot: Cold fusion reactor verified by third-party researchers, seems to have 1 million times the energy density of gasoline | ExtremeTech

07:48:30 mircea_popescu: no shortage of bold claims it seesm

07:49:04 BingoBoingo: Eh, might as well get the bold claims in now, before the whips come

07:51:03 mircea_popescu: something on the magnitude order of getting fusion to work is pretty much the only way out of the slump for teh west.

07:52:19 BingoBoingo: Oh, but without fears of a Stalin, they only way to develop it requires insuring it.

07:52:34 mircea_popescu: maybe.

07:52:40 mircea_popescu: lots of free money may help there.

07:53:30 BingoBoingo: Only for so much longer

07:55:02 Vexual: I wonder how small they can go if smaller is easier

07:55:50 Vexual: oh, it says

07:58:13 BingoBoingo: !up jacoblyles

08:03:37 Vexual: BingoBoingo: Vexual: Y u no blog yet??? kalyhost stole my moeneyz

08:16:03 BingoBoingo: !up dgeats

08:16:57 Vexual: still parsing the history of pgp

08:17:07 BingoBoingo: Ah

08:17:20 Vexual: i guess

08:18:01 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

08:20:03 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

08:20:10 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 392.43, vol: 48264.10238920 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 385.95, vol: 24858.0845 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 393.49, vol: 115673.95376961 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 403.87, vol: 39.1832539 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 389.973731, vol: 599526.01520000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 395.0, vol: 70.24819212 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 396.322256, vol: 174.64115222 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

08:20:47 BingoBoingo: Oh, the Chinese lead the drop tonight

08:22:24 BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/auroracoin << lol

08:22:26 assbot: Auroracoin

08:28:43 BingoBoingo: !up bagels7

08:33:49 mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/auroracoin/comments/2icorq/what_killed_auroracoin/ << lolok.

08:33:51 assbot: What killed Auroracoin? : auroracoin

08:34:02 mircea_popescu: and since we're doing the internet sewer, https://bitcointa.lk/threads/definitive-proof-that-satoshi-nakamoto-is-james-a-donald.320588/

08:34:03 assbot: Definitive proof that Satoshi Nakamoto is James A. Donald. | Bitcointa.lk

08:34:51 dgeats: ;;gettrust dgeats

08:34:52 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask dgeats!~user@173.219.118.98. Trust relationship from user dgeats to user dgeats: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=dgeats&dest=dgeats | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=dgeats | Rated since: never

08:35:16 Vexual: woot

08:35:22 dgeats: sup b-a

08:35:44 BingoBoingo: Whatever happened to Sir Reginald GreyhawK?

08:36:48 mircea_popescu: nothing much.

08:36:59 mircea_popescu: his cover being inadvertently blown, he retired.

08:37:10 Vexual: what happened with your hitler portait?

08:38:31 BingoBoingo: On that note it's bedtime and MP's BitBet penny sports bet nightmare is over.

08:40:11 Vexual: what's your story dgeats?

08:41:09 dgeats: I know nothing about computers and I’m 31 y/o

08:41:36 mircea_popescu: so what do you do ?

08:41:55 dgeats: I sell real estate

08:42:08 dgeats: I’m a “REALTOR”

08:42:25 BingoBoingo: Wait, so the FBI lives in your butt?

08:43:05 dgeats: wouldn’t take it from such jerks

08:43:14 BingoBoingo: Or is that just-Tor

08:43:31 dgeats: no kidding

08:43:35 mircea_popescu: where ?

08:43:36 dgeats: all very new to me

08:43:48 dgeats: tor browsers and irc everything

08:43:56 mircea_popescu: no i mean, realtor where.

08:44:15 dgeats: Humboldt County, CA ;)

08:44:27 dgeats: for real though

08:44:39 dgeats: been here for the past 10 years or so

08:45:13 dgeats: about a week into the logs, lots and lots to catch up on

08:45:34 mircea_popescu: ;;rate dgeats 1 CA realtor, he says.

08:45:35 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user dgeats has been recorded.

08:47:03 Vexual: thats almost bens neck of the woods

08:47:05 mircea_popescu: dgeats pm assbot !up

08:49:04 dgeats: in real estate not by accident, it’s still a major part of the economy

08:49:18 cazalla: wonder if 8chan mystery donator is in here

08:49:19 dgeats: I wonder what property rights are like in Romania

08:50:22 mircea_popescu: dgeats they are bizarre at best.

08:50:49 dgeats: not “a bundle of rights” like in the states?

08:52:08 mircea_popescu: i wrote a little about the nuttery of it, back in romanian days. lemme see if i can find it.

08:54:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13900 @ 0.00044062 = 6.1246 BTC [-]

08:55:20 mircea_popescu: http://pastebin.com/AgUhmsB1

08:55:20 assbot: http://fraudsters.com/2009/evaluarea-proprietatii-imobiliare/ http://fraudsters.com/2 - Pastebin.com

08:55:22 mircea_popescu: apparently i wrote a lot.

08:56:45 dgeats: hmmm can’t make it out ha ha

08:58:12 mircea_popescu: :p

08:58:15 mircea_popescu: remains an enigma

08:59:54 dgeats: wow you actually did write about real estate in Romania

09:00:44 mircea_popescu: well yeah ?

09:00:45 Naphex: ttp://fraudsters.com/2009/evaluarea-proprietatii-imobiliare/

09:00:57 Naphex: damn right click pastes :)

09:01:00 Naphex: hi o/.

09:01:04 mircea_popescu: ;)

09:01:46 Naphex: https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2m6rp7/hitbtc_about_to_go_mt_gox/

09:02:05 Naphex: that exchange smelled hell fishy from day #1 wtf

09:02:22 Naphex: also exchanges are hard to run, idiots should stop trying

09:06:13 punkman: !s hitbtc

09:06:14 assbot: 15 results for 'hitbtc' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=hitbtc

09:06:24 punkman: did they even have any customers?

09:07:01 mircea_popescu: Naphex im sure "customers" and "experts" will both listen to your #1 and #2 above, yeah.

09:07:21 mircea_popescu: they tend to read and understand, it's what they do. not like "why should i even bother with the wot" an' stuff.

09:08:19 Naphex: wot or any due dilligance

09:08:30 Naphex: punkman: they sure had lots of fake volume

09:08:32 mircea_popescu: or any thinking.

09:09:24 Naphex: mircea_popescu: BTCXchange offered SSL Authenticated with GlobalSign.EU, the registration certificate was posted. And all due dilligance info posted

09:09:32 Naphex: yet then people go well 'Romania!'

09:10:03 mircea_popescu: yeah, see, you should have had "real brick and mortar stores" in cyprus.

09:10:13 punkman: Naphex, could have been worse, good thing you aren't Nigerian

09:10:16 mircea_popescu: much better than europe's highest per capita gold reserve country o.O

09:10:21 Naphex: punkman: :))

09:12:27 Naphex: also lots of eshops going up with btcxpay for btc->ron https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=855469.0

09:12:28 assbot: Magazine online care acceptă bitcoin prin serviciul de plată BTCXpay.ro

09:14:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79650 @ 0.00043202 = 34.4104 BTC [-] {2}

09:34:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34000 @ 0.00044201 = 15.0283 BTC [+] {2}

09:42:31 punkman: nubbins`: so maybe deedbot shouldn't be stripping the \n at eof << it's not really, just doesn't care for anything outside the first and last dash of a gpg message

09:51:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70350 @ 0.00043076 = 30.304 BTC [-] {2}

10:04:07 mircea_popescu: heh.

10:04:10 mircea_popescu: no scoopbot huh

10:06:02 mircea_popescu: http://esr.ibiblio.org/ << shit, ers had a blog ?

10:07:03 mircea_popescu: all these years ?!

10:10:46 mircea_popescu: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4781 and it's really good, too.

10:17:52 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH2] 1666 @ 0.0012 = 1.9992 BTC

10:27:38 mircea_popescu: !up pirateoftheapes

10:28:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45116 @ 0.00044343 = 20.0058 BTC [+] {2}

10:53:16 cazalla: putin is due to land here within a few hours with obama due in the morning

10:55:41 cazalla: !up vexual

10:59:14 punkman: does this have a good signature? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=0nULimNT

11:00:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12459 @ 0.00044714 = 5.5709 BTC [+]

11:06:57 Vexual: apec had those cool steven segal costumes, we prive.. heatwave

11:07:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67807 @ 0.00044716 = 30.3206 BTC [+] {2}

11:16:17 cazalla: so.. is qntra down for others?

11:16:32 punkman: yep

11:17:03 cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#920333 lol

11:17:03 assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 22:25:37; mircea_popescu: rithm: it's cryptowall now and from what i can tell it's infected sites like mom & pop's ruinning old WP/drupal/some CMS <<< yeah, stuff the shitheads in question don't maintain, then i have to answer biweekly questions of "is qntra down". off with their heads i say!

11:17:25 punkman: cazalla, could try http://aws.amazon.com/cloudfront/

11:18:26 cazalla: punkman, i'll leave it in the hands of mp

11:22:33 jurov: punkman: gpg: BAD signature from "RagnarDanneskjol (fuck yo' couch) <admin@bitrecruiter.com>" [neznáme]

11:23:08 punkman: RagnarDanneskjol: ^

11:23:13 RagnarDanneskjol: thanks jurov - figured that out

11:24:08 jurov: btw, if i'm doing the web submission, what about js verifier? does anyone has it already?

11:24:41 punkman: you can try that openpgpjs thing, but why?

11:25:21 jurov: it looks like it needs some server part

11:25:28 jurov: so i'm asking

11:26:06 jurov: and i prefer the ability of user to check stuff on his side before uploading text and files

11:26:29 jurov: although... dunno if js can actually read uploaded files

11:33:05 cazalla: putin has touched down!

11:34:14 jurov: lol what?

11:34:21 cazalla: aus media is talking up putin being here more so than obama

11:37:40 jurov: what does he want from aussies?

11:39:22 cazalla: g20 is on and media are playing it off as putin versus our prime minister due to MH17

11:40:42 jurov: is that the pencilneck one? or it was canadian PM?

11:41:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33000 @ 0.00044255 = 14.6042 BTC [-] {2}

11:43:39 cazalla: no idea, our pm said he was gonna shirt lift putin

11:43:55 cazalla: shirtfront even

11:44:05 davout: cazalla: fyi qntra is unreadable on my mobile

11:44:55 cazalla: davout, it's down atm or are you speaking generally

11:45:07 davout: generally

11:46:26 cazalla: i'll speak with BingoBoingo and see what we can, might be a plugin that will make it more mobile friendly

11:46:31 cazalla: can do*

11:48:20 davout: disabling all CSS would be fine

11:48:46 davout: that's the advantage with sites that are lightly styled, they usually degrade much better when disabling CSS

12:00:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43900 @ 0.00044844 = 19.6865 BTC [+] {2}

12:01:28 jurov: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2Mp_0iIUAAcNdn.jpg:large

12:02:28 jurov: ^ just for the mood

12:48:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45000 @ 0.00043999 = 19.7996 BTC [-] {2}

12:56:21 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 423 @ 0.00316761 = 1.3399 BTC [+] {3}

13:05:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70500 @ 0.00043719 = 30.8219 BTC [-] {2}

13:37:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25693 @ 0.00043813 = 11.2569 BTC [+] {2}

13:54:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39850 @ 0.00043902 = 17.4949 BTC [+]

13:55:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75045 @ 0.00043536 = 32.6716 BTC [-] {3}

14:20:27 punkman: for future reference: "gpgv" is somewhat smaller than the fully-blown gpg and uses a different (and simpler) way to check that the public keys used to make the signature are valid.

14:35:16 davout: punkman: "uses a different (and simpler) way to check that the public keys used to make the signature are valid" <<< sounds sketchy

14:36:33 punkman: well it's official, but maybe

14:40:55 gernika: BingoBoingo: I liked the IsisCoin story.

14:52:07 BingoBoingo: Thanks gernika

14:55:03 notary: [trust-update] added: dgeats

15:01:46 BingoBoingo: http://deadspin.com/maybe-you-shouldnt-thank-this-specific-follower-patrio-1658660978 << Perils of automation

15:01:47 assbot: Maybe You Shouldn't Thank This Specific Follower, Patriots?

15:29:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77600 @ 0.00043407 = 33.6838 BTC [-] {2}

15:38:22 BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2014/11/imperial-college-host-bitcoin-technology-competition-for-students/

15:45:26 The20YearIRCloud: RentalStarter has set their 12th monthly dividend payment today. Total per share is 0.00002537

15:46:29 BingoBoingo: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://www.paymentssource.com/news/interchange/kim-kardashians-lessons-for-the-bitcoin-card-industry-3019708-1.html

15:47:29 gribble: The operation succeeded.

15:54:36 mats_cd03: im hurting from s.mpoe taking a dive

15:57:00 The20YearIRCloud: why'd it dive?

15:58:37 mats_cd03: no idea.

15:58:37 BingoBoingo: It's a mystery

16:12:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11862 @ 0.00043393 = 5.1473 BTC [-]

16:14:07 danielpbarron: ;;isitdown fraudsters.com

16:14:08 gribble: fraudsters.com is up

16:16:04 Duffer1: ;;isitdown qntra.net

16:16:05 gribble: qntra.net is up

16:16:08 Duffer1: lies

16:17:05 danielpbarron: yeah both appear down to me, from 3 different ips

16:19:06 asciilifeform: same

16:22:21 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker

16:22:23 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 390.86, Best ask: 391.5, Bid-ask spread: 0.64000, Last trade: 391.87, 24 hour volume: 41838.99860218, 24 hour low: 381.55, 24 hour high: 431.59, 24 hour vwap: 403.110014299

16:27:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 21111 @ 0.00009 = 1.9 BTC [-] {2}

16:33:07 BingoBoingo: !up so

16:46:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38012 @ 0.00043244 = 16.4379 BTC [-] {2}

17:37:09 jurov: re:putin http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/russia-says-fleet-of-warships-is-off-australia-for-climate-research/story-fnpebfcn-1227123047034?nk=944f472ed8ac245182d4622953d08019

17:37:09 assbot: Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian

17:45:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 400 @ 0.00652083 = 2.6083 BTC [+] {22}

17:46:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51800 @ 0.00043144 = 22.3486 BTC [-] {2}

18:03:32 jurov: $proxies

18:03:33 empyex: jurov: Proxies: mpex.bz mpex.ws mpex.co mpex.biz mpex.coinbr.com Current MPEx GPG-Key-ID: 02DD2D91

18:03:36 empyex: jurov: MPEx-Status: mpex.biz (94 milliseconds), mpex.co (117 milliseconds), mpex.bz (168 milliseconds), mpex.coinbr.com (552 milliseconds), mpex.ws (2112 milliseconds)

18:03:37 empyex: jurov: Health-Indicators: Homepage: √ MK Depth JSON: √ VWAP JSON: √

18:03:59 jurov: ;;isup mpex.ws

18:04:01 gribble: mpex.ws is up

18:04:31 jurov: http://live.coinbr.com/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks interesting again

18:04:31 assbot: CoinBr Live S.MPOE

18:27:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00043461 = 1.8688 BTC [+]

18:34:21 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yeah im sure lol.

18:38:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17600 @ 0.00043048 = 7.5764 BTC [-]

18:41:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56300 @ 0.00043043 = 24.2332 BTC [-] {2}

18:45:13 mircea_popescu: cazalla http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/13/1344589/-Bitcoin-may-be-worth-1-million-says-Pal

18:45:14 assbot: Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal

18:47:19 xanthyos: i wish they showed the equation

18:47:40 mircea_popescu: dailykos, it doesn't do equations, they're racist.

18:48:57 BingoBoingo: Nice work MP

18:49:40 mircea_popescu: http://www.catb.org/~esr/aim/ < i dunno if this lulz was here.

18:49:41 assbot: Page not found – ibiblio

18:50:56 mircea_popescu: cazalla: so.. is qntra down for others? << uh i just looked at it.

18:53:22 mircea_popescu: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-trader-biz-let-bitcoin-trader-earn-money/ << lawl.

18:53:22 assbot: Bitcoin-Trader.Biz - Insolvent - CryptoCoinsNews

18:53:35 mats_cd03: funny how there's no mention of USD being worth <0.1% of BTC if it goes to 1mn BTCUSD

18:54:22 mircea_popescu: how you reason ?

18:56:52 asciilifeform: http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1344589/54989752#c16 << extra lulzy

18:56:54 assbot: Daily Kos :: Comments: Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal

18:58:23 mircea_popescu: jurov: what does he want from aussies? <<< russia needs military bases overseas like kim kardashian needs horsecock.

18:59:17 mircea_popescu: Bitcoin software does not appear to be vetted to such an extend. << the english-t to d migration is soooo indicative of a native romanian speaker you can't imagine.

19:00:19 asciilifeform: and u.s. illiterates.

19:00:30 mircea_popescu: is it ?

19:00:49 asciilifeform: aha.

19:00:51 mircea_popescu: i've not commonly seen it outside of ro hack-kiddies speaking english

19:01:04 mircea_popescu: or for that matter, my own output lol.

19:01:46 mircea_popescu: davout: disabling all CSS would be fine << he has a point there, just de-css-ify it for mobile, will be fine.

19:01:51 asciilifeform: i've probably crapped out every conceivable kind of mistake (when hammering in real time. text that i get to read again before broadcast - another matter)

19:02:03 mircea_popescu: most mobile platforms have spent more money on making their thing work on unstyled websites than we ever will on qntra.

19:02:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just about, as one gets tired stuff starts to mutate.

19:02:29 asciilifeform: fingers - will of their own.

19:03:27 asciilifeform: http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/notation-as-a-tool-for-thought-wavelets-in-j << for aficionados of peculiar programming systems

19:03:28 assbot: Notation as a tool for thought: Wavelets in J | Locklin on science

19:04:08 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I gave the viewport tag one last tweak, next step is yeah, just denying mobiles any styling at all beyond what they bring on their own

19:04:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48277 @ 0.00043473 = 20.9875 BTC [+] {2}

19:05:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just between you and me and nobody else : i very much doubt the average j user actually has the mental acumen to correctly understand the actual effects of recursive transforms available to them, wavelets or no wavelets.

19:05:57 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol! you know actual 'j' users?!

19:06:02 mircea_popescu: you think coders are bad, just wait till you see mathematicians apply automated processes to statistical samples.

19:06:18 mircea_popescu: a few...

19:06:20 asciilifeform: not confusing with 'r' ?

19:06:42 mircea_popescu: well no

19:07:13 *: asciilifeform must have slept through the re-appearance of 'j'

19:07:37 mircea_popescu: as far as i can see, it's the common step away from excel

19:07:39 asciilifeform: i wanted a book on 'j' 5 or so years ago, had to go to a library with spy camera.

19:07:48 mircea_popescu: once people crash their system trying to load 1mn cells for the 1kth time

19:08:18 asciilifeform: around here, the 'common step away from excel' is 'r'.

19:08:36 asciilifeform: (open-source statistical gizmo, vaguely reminiscent of 'octave')

19:08:44 mircea_popescu: does it work on windows ?

19:08:52 asciilifeform: afaik yes.

19:09:32 mircea_popescu: apparently. well then i dunno.

19:13:08 mircea_popescu: jurov: http://live.coinbr.com/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks interesting again <<< it does, esp the week view. o.O look at that.

19:13:09 assbot: CoinBr Live S.MPOE

19:14:21 BingoBoingo: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/an-open-letter-to-jason-king-of-seans-outpost

19:14:24 assbot: An Open Letter to Jason King of Seans Outpost | Lets Talk Bitcoin

19:14:58 mircea_popescu: who;s this guy again ?

19:16:31 asciilifeform: 'This sort of illogic is rampant in debates about cold fusion, particularly when experts respond to irritating, unwelcome suggestions made by amateurs. They start out cautioning the amateur that instruments such as calorimeters have a margin of error, and calorimeters frequently malfunction with leaking cooling fluid and other problems. When the expert senses the message is not getting through, and the amateur

19:16:31 asciilifeform: still believes that cold fusion calorimetry indicates real excess heat, the frustrated expert may resort to extreme, untenable claims, such as a statement that no calorimeter has an error less than 10%, when in fact the error margin for top-quality conventional instruments is on the order of 0.1%. Or he may wave his hands and say calorimeters are so undependable that you cannot run one for more than a few days

19:16:32 asciilifeform: without recalibrating, when in fact a good one will run reliably for months.' ( http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf )

19:16:48 asciilifeform: ^ very interestingly perverse comparison of the 'titanic' aftermath and that of 'cold fusion'

19:17:25 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: The homeless bitcoin camp

19:17:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is true tho. you familiar witrh playing pokler at all ?

19:17:42 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo oh oh. mkay.

19:17:52 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on the vary basic level.

19:17:56 asciilifeform: *very

19:18:07 mircea_popescu: do you know what meta coincepts are, like "playing loose" or "tight" ?

19:18:11 asciilifeform: aha

19:18:21 mircea_popescu: now, thinking obviously has nothing to do with poker

19:18:26 asciilifeform: although 'tilt' might be the more relevant pokerism

19:18:29 mircea_popescu: persuasion, however, is exactly that, poker reskinned.

19:18:43 mircea_popescu: the most significant error of judgement made by experts as far as i've seen yet is

19:18:49 mircea_popescu: when confronted with an inept player they loosen up their game

19:18:57 mircea_popescu: this is so idiotic as to defy sufficient expression.

19:19:33 asciilifeform: almost as if they were living creatures trying to conserve energy or something

19:19:49 mircea_popescu: the #1 reason it is idiotic is that the inept player may actually and usually does notice the loosening, and takes this as a honest signal that the expert is bluffing

19:19:55 mircea_popescu: on the, bluffs here, bluffs everywhere heuristic

19:20:28 mircea_popescu: the #2 reason it is idiotic is that discussion has remanence, poker hands do not. expert 30 years in has a fucking string of noted down examples of having done this, people with an ideologic interest can use to strangle him with

19:20:38 asciilifeform: aha.

19:20:44 mircea_popescu: this is something a politician is keenly aware of, but since the expert's brain actually functions, he's no politician.

19:20:45 asciilifeform: the linked article is at least partly about this.

19:21:13 asciilifeform: see also james randi's notes on how physicists are easily fooled by methods that fool not one stage magician

19:21:21 mircea_popescu: yup.

19:21:31 mircea_popescu: "gotta play the audience" means exactly that.

19:21:42 mircea_popescu: being a physicist doesn't make one immune, only diffusion makes one immune.

19:21:53 asciilifeform: robert wood was probably the one notable exception to this blindness.

19:22:09 asciilifeform: was an unambiguous master of both magics.

19:22:13 mircea_popescu: i suppose this also wraps right back up into wavelets lol.

19:22:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he was an engineer.

19:22:32 asciilifeform: ;;google robert wood n-rays

19:22:33 gribble: N ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_ray; Robert W. Wood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Wood; Blondlot and N-rays - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com: http://skepdic.com/blondlot.html

19:22:33 mircea_popescu: this is the definition of an engineer.

19:23:06 asciilifeform: wood was a proper, full-bore polymath.

19:23:24 asciilifeform: which, i suppose, includes engineering.

19:27:19 asciilifeform: 'If it ever becomes generally known that cold fusion is real, how will the scientists who opposed it react? A few may take responsibility and go down with the ship, retiring from academic life. I hope that most will regret their actions, and try to prevent such a thing from occurring again. Some will react the way Lightoller did, blaming Pons and Fleischmann. They may say the traditions and customs of science a

19:27:19 asciilifeform: re more important than experimental results. Lightoller, in effect, put traditions and customs ahead of the lives of passengers. To him, ?the experience of years? and ?what we have always done? outweighed all practical suggestions as to what we might do instead, to avoid killing thousands of people.'

19:27:37 asciilifeform: story time. i don't personally have any truck with fusion, cold or not;

19:28:10 asciilifeform: but the phenomenon described above is entirely the root of the al schwartz equivalence principle violation experiment

19:28:31 asciilifeform: or rather, lack of experiment, because the entire sub-field formed a 'solid blue wall' against herr schwartz

19:28:39 asciilifeform: for the reason stated in the 'titanic' article.

19:30:49 asciilifeform: modern-day physicists want a demonstrable equivalence principle violation the way they want horsecock.

19:30:52 asciilifeform: or bullet in head.

19:32:49 BingoBoingo: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/11230144/Twitter-rated-as-junk-by-SandP-shares-drop-5pc.html

19:32:49 assbot: Twitter rated as 'junk' by S&P, shares drop 5pc - Telegraph

19:33:39 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i diun get it, who would be opposed to cold fusion and why ?

19:34:07 asciilifeform: the folks who built careers on (promise of) the 'hot' variety.

19:34:08 mircea_popescu: los_pantalones can i buy any ws puts off you btw ?

19:34:13 asciilifeform: (just one example)

19:34:19 mircea_popescu: i guess...

19:34:27 asciilifeform: under the bezzle, there is very little profit in solutions.

19:34:31 los_pantalones: ha, TWTR put ?

19:34:36 asciilifeform: in prolonging agony - quite a bit.

19:34:44 los_pantalones: why don't you list stuff like that on mpex ?

19:34:54 mircea_popescu: i dunno, maybe im unbecomingly naive, but to my eyes cold fusion working is an event of such magnitude, it'd trigger an Auld Lang Syne moment.

19:35:05 mircea_popescu: los_pantalones well for lack of a mm actually.

19:35:21 los_pantalones: hmm

19:35:22 mircea_popescu: ifsomeone wanted to manage a portofolio of ws shortness for btc, it'd prolly rock.

19:35:36 mircea_popescu: !up cypherc

19:36:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: try to picture how bitcoin would have been treated, even in the embryonic stage, if the implications for the next xxx years from it, were entirely obvious to all.

19:36:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59788 @ 0.00043289 = 25.8816 BTC [-] {2}

19:36:51 mats_cd03: ;;calc calc [ticker --last]/(10**6)

19:36:53 gribble: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)

19:36:54 mircea_popescu: maybe.

19:37:00 mats_cd03: ;;calc [ticker --last]/(10**6)

19:37:01 gribble: 0.00039599

19:37:01 asciilifeform: auld lang syne, lol.

19:37:05 mircea_popescu: except free enerngy is quite unlike bitcoin.

19:37:05 asciilifeform: horst wessel lied.

19:38:07 mats_cd03: mircea_popescu: to rephrase, the dollar would have lost 99.99% of its value on the trip to 1mn BTCUSD

19:38:16 mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 only ~50%.

19:42:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, seriously, cold fusion would actually make the "local production" stuff that link earlier was harping about a reality.

19:42:31 asciilifeform: would make many things.

19:42:34 asciilifeform: e.g., laser pistol.

19:42:48 mircea_popescu: it's the one card out that could save teh current usg / societal structure.

19:43:04 mircea_popescu: i can't imagine anyone'd manage to supress it if it could work.

19:43:10 asciilifeform: quite a few of the ancient science-fictional machines of early 20th c. imagination.

19:43:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is why i mentioned schwartz example.

19:43:32 asciilifeform: very often, 'works' is like early lisp machine.

19:43:41 asciilifeform: unwieldy, ruinously expensive, terrible ROI.

19:43:50 asciilifeform: faraday's 'what use is a baby.'

19:44:03 asciilifeform: baby - can kill with one hand.

19:44:06 mircea_popescu: i dunno.

19:44:11 mircea_popescu: maybe.

19:44:17 mircea_popescu: Lightoller is a particularly bad example, by the way.

19:44:25 mircea_popescu: his decisions were correct on the deck.

19:44:46 mircea_popescu: a ship is sinking is undisputably the worst time to be going out doing "research".

19:45:29 mircea_popescu: the fundamntal understanding of this is illustrated by the case made for giving people tenure and shit. research is an activity of the safe, which is why prisons and other emperor of the flies situations aren't conducive to proving the fermat conjecture.

19:45:56 asciilifeform: well, yes

19:46:04 asciilifeform: author of linked piece takes issue with l's conduct pre-sinking.

19:46:05 mircea_popescu: when a ship is sinking, the officer is to do EXACTLY what's done.

19:46:24 mircea_popescu: ah like that.

19:46:27 mircea_popescu: mebbe.

19:46:34 asciilifeform: see pg. 9.

19:46:44 asciilifeform: 'C: What I want to suggest to you is that it was recklessness, utter recklessness, in view of the conditions

19:46:44 asciilifeform: which you have described as abnormal, and in view of the knowledge you had from various sources that

19:46:44 asciilifeform: ice was in your immediate vicinity, to proceed at 21.5 knots.

19:46:44 asciilifeform: L: Then all I can say is that recklessness applies to practically every commander and every ship crossing

19:46:45 asciilifeform: the Atlantic Ocean.'

19:46:59 asciilifeform: he's essentially sticking to the 'flondor defence.'

19:47:07 asciilifeform: 'everybody did it.'

19:47:35 mircea_popescu: i don't think they understood ice will crush the ship, tbh.

19:47:55 asciilifeform: curious why mr. l did not say this, then.

19:47:55 mircea_popescu: they thought they had built the lenin

19:48:02 mircea_popescu: why do you think lol.

19:48:10 asciilifeform: the 'uncrushable' thing was more of a marketing literature, tbh

19:48:24 asciilifeform: folks who actually made their living on ships, knew better.

19:48:30 mircea_popescu: let me model why : if i'm in that situation and you ask me that, i'ma in typical style go "wel lfrankly, i didn't believe that ice can crush steel. sue me."

19:48:32 mircea_popescu: so they'd hang me.

19:48:40 mircea_popescu: that means either i don't have kids or my kids don't do so well.

19:48:45 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, l goes "well...derp"

19:48:48 mircea_popescu: did they hang him ?

19:48:50 mircea_popescu: so therefore!

19:49:07 asciilifeform: 'nobody ever got hanged for buying ibm stock.'

19:49:29 mircea_popescu: maybe they knew better, hard to know what individuals knew or thought. but imo, they honestl ybelieved ice is now butter, because forward britannia!

19:50:24 Adlai: !s isis currency

19:50:24 assbot: 2 results for 'isis currency' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=isis+currency

19:50:51 asciilifeform: speaking of ice...

19:50:52 asciilifeform: http://news.yahoo.com/nations-last-big-icebreaker-endures-despite-age-214106918.html

19:50:54 assbot: Nation's last big icebreaker endures despite age - Yahoo News

19:50:54 BingoBoingo: Adlai: been qntra'd http://qntra.net/2014/11/isis-introduces-coins/

19:50:55 assbot: ISIS Introduces Coins | Qntra.net

19:50:55 Adlai: ^^ this is fantastically unrelated to bitcoin

19:51:29 Adlai: this is about as related to bitcoin as it would be if south sudan were to mint its own pound... oh wait, they did. where's qntra on that?

19:51:36 mircea_popescu: Adlai terrorism. one degree of separation.

19:52:53 Adlai: ok, i'll admit, isiscoin serves to attract investment capital away from bitcoin, and acts as a potentially stabler store of value for dollar-averse wealth

19:52:58 Adlai: let's short bitcoin!

19:53:33 BingoBoingo: Well, a lot of the problems Bitcoin solves aren't relevant to ISIS

19:53:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, that boer war fort thing ? lol!

19:54:54 asciilifeform: wai wat

19:55:49 mircea_popescu: lightoller, back during his time in the navy, was on a ship visiting south africa during the boer war

19:56:09 mircea_popescu: got out in the night, put the boer flag on the local fort, filled a cannon with a blank shot and a long fuse and well...

19:56:20 mircea_popescu: gave the locals a start.

19:56:35 asciilifeform: ahaha

19:57:35 Adlai: BingoBoingo: "and the later is simply for hire" << what's "the later"?

19:58:29 BingoBoingo: Adlai: The professional Derps

19:58:40 BingoBoingo: People who enjoy Buterin's waterfall

19:59:45 BingoBoingo: ALong with the sort of marketing shill who just wants a check and will endorse any idiocy

20:04:26 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

20:04:29 gribble: Current Blocks: 330024 | Current Difficulty: 39603666252.418 | Next Difficulty At Block: 330623 | Next Difficulty In: 599 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 1 hour, 47 minutes, and 45 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 40043955200.5 | Estimated Percent Change: 1.11174

20:09:17 Adlai: !s cryptolocker usg

20:09:18 assbot: 1 results for 'cryptolocker usg' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=cryptolocker+usg

20:10:11 Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-07-2014#756099 << who's to say that isn't cryptolocker itself?

20:10:11 assbot: Logged on 15-07-2014 02:55:38; asciilifeform: 'swamp donkey' << lol! apparently a usg version of 'cryptolocker'

20:10:51 *: Adlai just had a conversation with assbot

20:17:32 asciilifeform: Adlai: you must remember, we have not yet escalated to 'full throttle.'

20:17:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88400 @ 0.00042788 = 37.8246 BTC [-] {3}

20:18:00 asciilifeform: Adlai: there will come the day when winblows users dumb enough to run hotwallet will find their coin magicked away.

20:18:27 mircea_popescu: this has been reported sporadically since 2012

20:18:37 mircea_popescu: iirc that's when the first windows wallet stealer trojan was reported.

20:18:38 asciilifeform: Adlai: but today is not that day. and when it comes, it will be coated in enough parallel construction to kill a herd of elephants.

20:18:46 mircea_popescu: back then it was a big deal, wallets being unencrypted.

20:18:47 Adlai: ssh, you're leaking ideas to the fbi agents on the line

20:19:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: speaking not of wallet stealing trojan, but of 'xxxx coin wandered off with no plausible explanation, forensic showed nothing untoward'

20:19:34 asciilifeform: i.e. winblows is the ultimate trojan per se.

20:19:42 Adlai: how can you vanish coins without leaving a forensic trail?

20:19:44 mircea_popescu: i dunno how win forensics work

20:20:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when anyone bothers - very laboriously, largely manually-cranked.

20:20:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a skilled turdmeister (especially of the privvy-to-microshit-remote-orifice variety) will leave nothing to find.

20:21:01 mircea_popescu: so then there's nothing remarkable here.

20:21:16 Adlai: also, a skilled thief would target other stacks after/while people start leaving the brokenest one

20:21:27 asciilifeform: well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse.

20:22:18 asciilifeform: i inevitably picture a hunter, trying to avoid 'spooking' the birds

20:22:30 asciilifeform: inching closer, wants to bag more than one.

20:23:22 asciilifeform: i predict that when the hunter 'shoots', it will be 'spun' to look like a 'protocol' (or even crypto) break, of one kind or another

20:23:36 asciilifeform: with the inevitable shitgnome 'fixes' brought out

20:25:22 asciilifeform: while lies, of the 'false flag' variety, may not be the only tool in the buggers' toolbox - it is certainly their favourite. and perhaps the sharpest.

20:25:32 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> well the only remarkable thing is that, with the profusion of winblows users, coins are not yet wandering off into usg wallets en masse. <<< reddit is not, contrary to what it tells itself, relevant to bitcoin

20:25:46 mircea_popescu: 99% of bitcoin users, according to what people think, use windows.

20:25:53 mircea_popescu: 99% of bitcoin belongs to the remaining 1%

20:26:06 asciilifeform: if only winblows were confined to some magical reddit kingdom, where all stupid folks live.

20:26:34 mircea_popescu: in short, there's a very deep valley between "windows user who thinks himself into bitcoin because he recognises the term" and "bitcoin user".

20:26:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform jeffidiocy manages to keep idiots with benefits away from bitcoin altogether.

20:27:01 *: asciilifeform has no data on the present state of the btc musical chairs landscape and cannot say

20:27:09 mircea_popescu: i tell you, the anthropology of this thing has been an endless source of fascination to me

20:27:30 mircea_popescu: it's almost like watching a cell react in an infection, all sorts of bizarro mechanisms that you don't even dare declare exist seem to work in werido ways.

20:27:59 asciilifeform: likely - we will get to watch (or, feel on skin...) all of the available mechanisms.

20:28:07 mircea_popescu: maybe. doubt it.

20:29:56 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: jeffidiocy << there we go. herr lightoller's, too.

20:30:00 asciilifeform: 'best practices of the sea.'

20:30:22 mircea_popescu: yeah, but see that it actually "serves", depending how you put the goals on the table

20:34:29 mircea_popescu: anyway, to quote a bronx tale :

20:34:30 mircea_popescu: Come over here. Sit next to me. You must be pretty upset after the Yankees lost.

20:34:30 mircea_popescu: Bill Mazeroski, I hate him. He made Mickey Mantle cry. The papers said the Mick cried.

20:34:30 mircea_popescu: Mickey Mantle? That's what you're upset about? Mantle makes $ a year. How much does your father make?

20:34:30 mircea_popescu: I don't know.

20:34:32 mircea_popescu: You don't know. If your dad needs money, go ask Mickey Mantle. See what happens. Mickey Mantle don't care about you. Why care about him? Nobody cares.

20:34:51 mircea_popescu: the way people today construct their mental representations of groups and belonging is nothing short of mindblowing.

20:35:22 mircea_popescu: i mean, it used to be the case for children. but biological adults today are psychologically infantile, and this is by very far the most obvious effect.

20:35:32 xanthyos: it's tribal imprinting

20:35:41 mircea_popescu: what's that mean ?

20:35:50 asciilifeform: xanthyos: actual 'tribal' dynamics are 2-way.

20:35:57 xanthyos: without strong tribes or famlies to take these cues from they'll seek it elsewhere

20:36:00 mircea_popescu: at least in our classical understanding thereof.

20:36:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41253 @ 0.00042986 = 17.733 BTC [+] {2}

20:36:14 mircea_popescu: xanthyos the bizarre part is that they somehow manage to seek it in imagination.

20:37:19 mircea_popescu: pretty much the only tech left that works in the english speaking world is the tech that manipulates this at first view pathological "one way belonging" thing.

20:37:30 mircea_popescu: i guess we could call it "marketing" for lack of terminology.

20:38:04 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2013/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope/ << amusingly enough, it's mostly NOT government issue.

20:38:04 assbot: “You’re the guy who wasn’t good enough to sling dope.” pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

20:38:14 mircea_popescu: in fact, the usg seems moreover its prey than anything.

20:38:38 xanthyos: i've seen a video of a duck nursing from a cat because its own mother was gone.

20:38:46 asciilifeform: duck!?!?!

20:38:51 assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/11ARGS0.txt )

20:38:51 asciilifeform: !b 2

20:39:02 *: asciilifeform goes out to shop for duck milk

20:39:07 xanthyos: if you can convince your customer that you can literally breastfeed them they'll trust you forever

20:39:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how do you think they make duck tape ?

20:39:37 mircea_popescu: polymerized duck galactose.

20:39:49 xanthyos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlqTHhdCQko

20:39:49 assbot: Cat nurses Ducklings - YouTube

20:39:53 *: asciilifeform remembers very fine soviet chocolates 'bird's milk'

20:40:25 mircea_popescu: romania has "chicken milk", http://www.culinar.ro/retete/dulciuri/creme/lapte-de-pasare-iese-sigur/46/2/6925/

20:40:26 assbot: Lapte de pasare (iese sigur) - Culinar.ro

20:40:48 xanthyos: it's sad when they actually seek out mickey mantle to get reciprocation though

20:41:20 undata: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juggalo << the "need to belong"

20:41:22 assbot: Juggalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

20:41:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this may actually be the very same filling as in 'bird's milk'

20:41:34 mircea_popescu: prolly.

20:41:49 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%87%D1%8C%D0%B5_%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE_(%D0%BA%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F)

20:41:50 assbot: Птичье молоко (кулинария) — Википедия

20:42:35 mats_cd03: http://thestack.com/chakravarty-tor-traffic-analysis-141114 via /.

20:42:40 mircea_popescu: lol your percentile language

20:42:47 asciilifeform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptasie_mleczko << apparently englisch exists

20:42:49 assbot: Ptasie mleczko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

20:42:49 mircea_popescu: ow shit that LOOKS like excellent chocolate.

20:42:59 mircea_popescu: exactly the right sheen. damn you stanislav!

20:43:14 asciilifeform: incidentally i get these in usa. though no idea for how much longer.

20:43:20 asciilifeform: afaik poroshenko runs the factory.

20:43:55 undata: the juggalo thing is a bizarre example of marketing turning into some weird semblance of a 2-way belonging

20:44:00 asciilifeform: (or perhaps not. i do know he's corralled a good fraction of the 'russian' confections business)

20:44:17 mircea_popescu: ;;ud juggalo

20:44:18 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=juggalo | juggalo. For the most part, an uneducated, pathetic excuse for a human being who listens to the group ICP who are bold enough to actually consider themselves ...

20:45:11 undata: mircea_popescu: american white trash who literally dress like clowns

20:45:18 TomServo: Here's a comical introduction to Juggalos for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulGaxBPk2jI&list=UUfR7gRIYmZbGjhhrRJCwpmw

20:45:18 assbot: Joe Goes JUGGALO - YouTube

20:45:20 undata: they apparently have a whole religion

20:45:27 mircea_popescu: some sort of insane clown o nm that's what icp means huh

20:45:36 asciilifeform: mats_cd03: iirc the method was published before, some months ago

20:45:37 TomServo: they follow icp, yes

20:45:37 mircea_popescu: sorta glam-punk offshot thing

20:45:42 asciilifeform: mats_cd03: made no major splash, for some reason

20:47:17 asciilifeform: mats_cd03: traffic analysis is easy, cheap, fun. consider analogy of the children's game 'sea battle.'

20:47:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32839 @ 0.00042556 = 13.975 BTC [-] {2}

20:47:34 mircea_popescu: dude, topless chicks being a big deal, you already know you must be in ameristan

20:47:48 mircea_popescu: im not even sure whats more ridiculous, the rednecks or the mainstream.

20:47:50 asciilifeform: or how one might determine the electrical circuits in an old house (by unscrewing breakers at random)

20:48:27 cazalla: mircea_popescu: cazalla http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/13/1344589/-Bitcoin-may-be-worth-1-million-says-Pal <<< great and informative article!

20:48:28 assbot: Bitcoin may be worth $1 million; says Pal

20:48:47 mircea_popescu: cazalla lol they di what they can

20:50:52 mats_cd03: asciilifeform: i'm surprised it took this long. its been alive. what. 10+ years?

20:51:31 mats_cd03: not the doing of the analysis, but dissemination of results

20:52:04 asciilifeform: mats_cd03: they print now, not wishing to risk obsolescence

20:52:07 mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 it didn't take this long, that tor was routinely compromised was an open secret.

20:52:20 mircea_popescu: course, when i said so last year the derps went on derping, but why would the derps count here.

20:53:32 *: asciilifeform found it very surprising that tor survived as a going concern after 'heartbleed'

20:53:51 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something tells me i won't be getting the "mp's blog, first place to announce tor is shit, a year or so ago" all over the "tech" "press". just like i didn't get the "mp forces wikileaks to release unedited cables by publishing the romanian subset" a few years back

20:54:24 mircea_popescu: because why report, right, there's all these fucktards that need to wonder "what mainstream nobody agrees with mp", as if that's the fucking criteria nao, we vote for knowledge.

20:54:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-06-2014#700916

20:54:34 assbot: Logged on 04-06-2014 00:08:26; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the buggers' traditional defense is to pretend that the event was a non-event - or, if this is impractical, to continue living in an imaginary world where they 'scooped' the story first, and all of the 'unsanctioned' discussion never happened.

20:55:14 mircea_popescu: myeah. and this matters, because the non-wot world is like, totally a world and anything, and what happens outside of b-a ctually happens, and non-notarized documents actually carry weight and everything

20:55:24 mircea_popescu: trust teh power of dreamz!

20:55:32 asciilifeform: 'we have always been at war with [east|eur]asia.'

20:56:29 mircea_popescu: anyway, this is the best of all worlds, tbh. i'd get really pissy in short order if reddit actually knew what's what

20:56:53 mircea_popescu: and i couldn't get out of bed without 5000 "hey mp, what do you think of this toaster" "is bitcoin going up i must know because of my 0.05 btcent investment!"

20:56:59 asciilifeform: reddit, as i understand, is a world of 'class 3' learners - 'must piss on electric fence himself'

20:57:21 mircea_popescu: if this is true, how did they come to the conclusion women dislike being raped ?

20:57:27 mircea_popescu: not that it's false, but they're not women. so... how ?

20:58:17 asciilifeform: not clear that these folks have an actual take on the subject. parroting usg religion - yes.

20:58:26 mircea_popescu: that's learning no ?

20:58:34 asciilifeform: but on the subject of, e.g., tor, they have both words and deeds.

20:58:42 asciilifeform: and will end up learning from the electric fence.

20:58:48 mircea_popescu: very much doubt it.

20:58:50 asciilifeform: are, in fact, already being taught by it

20:59:00 mircea_popescu: imo, they're 4th level learners. will not learn from thought ; nor from other

20:59:04 mircea_popescu: s experience, nor from their own.

20:59:15 asciilifeform: 'the hunchback will be straightened by his grave.'

20:59:17 mircea_popescu: will ONLY learn from fiction, inasmuch as they find a way to link it to their own fiction.

20:59:52 mircea_popescu: basically, to teach a muppet something you must construct a literary work which jives with the preexisting dreamworld he inhabits

20:59:52 nubbins`: closed encounters of the 4th kind

20:59:59 mircea_popescu: which is how they all "learned" all about mordor.

21:00:50 asciilifeform: it does happen that 'fanons' conflict, though.

21:01:03 mircea_popescu: they don't know how to compute whether x option ios better than y option in any situation, but they do know you don't just walk into mordor

21:01:23 mircea_popescu: of course it does, but so ? energy states in a semiconductor also conflict, in the abstract

21:01:27 mircea_popescu: what's that do for any cell ?

21:01:38 asciilifeform: somebody had an essay on 'knowledge vs. suggestively-named strings'

21:01:45 mircea_popescu: where ?

21:02:29 asciilifeform: http://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~alexs/classes/2011_Spring_585X/readings/02_Principles/AI_Meets_Natural_Stupidity.pdf

21:02:32 asciilifeform: ancient scan.

21:02:38 asciilifeform: not readily deturdifiable.

21:02:55 asciilifeform: but is an iconic cult-classic (mcdermott, 1976)

21:03:35 mircea_popescu: lmao the title promises

21:04:00 asciilifeform: it's an epic paper, that not merely rained but pissed on the exuberant 'ai' parade of the '70s academe.

21:04:03 nubbins`: skim milk is rotten

21:04:07 nubbins`: it's fucking grey

21:05:11 mircea_popescu: ew

21:05:43 asciilifeform: 'programs to a great degree are problems rather than solutions. If a researcher tries to write an "understanding" program, it isn't because he has thought of a better way of implementing this well-understood task, but because he thinks he can come closer to writing the implementation. If he calls the main loop of his program "UNDERSTAND ', he is (until proven innocent) merely begging the question. He may mislea

21:05:43 asciilifeform: d a lot of people, most prominently himself, and enrage a lot of others.'

21:07:53 mircea_popescu: lol

21:09:54 asciilifeform: weizenbaum, author of iconic 'eliza', also understood how little a mechanism really needs to 'understand' in order to give an idiot the illusion of 'understanding.'

21:10:11 asciilifeform: (not related to above, but a contemporary)

21:10:35 mircea_popescu: 'It follows that he cannot know that certain people at certain times do not understand in Parry-or Eliza-like ways. That is to say, he has no way of knowing that we do not ourselves sometimes function by means of "clever tricks".' actually, i will go as far as to say that it is always certainly the case understanding happens through "clever tricks"

21:10:47 mircea_popescu: it is NEVER the case anyone ever understood anything whatsoever in any case at any point in human history

21:10:54 mircea_popescu: [self]delusion to the contrary notwithstanding.

21:10:56 asciilifeform: he is thinking of another variety of clever tricks.

21:11:07 asciilifeform: the mechanized stage magic of eliza

21:11:07 mircea_popescu: is he ?

21:11:13 mircea_popescu: that's exactly what i mean.

21:11:48 asciilifeform: i'd have to disagree that 'understand' is a null-word.

21:11:59 mircea_popescu: go right ahead, but what else do you bring ?

21:12:21 asciilifeform: people have never been seen to, e.g., rotate themselves in 4th d. and end up rechiralled. but they do occasionally understand things.

21:12:49 asciilifeform: at least, beyond 'eliza' level.

21:13:19 mircea_popescu: let us not discuss this in terms of understanding, something we care about. let us instead discuss in terms of love, something we don't care about.

21:13:44 asciilifeform: ?

21:13:46 mircea_popescu: so : your idea of understanding would be in fact "transformative love". ie, it'd give you the ability to turn, if not marble into virgin, at least whore into housewife.

21:13:51 mircea_popescu: dja think this was ever displayed ?

21:14:11 *: asciilifeform must confess he is rather puzzled at this point

21:14:17 mircea_popescu: whyssat ?

21:15:14 asciilifeform: well, if i had to give an example of 'understanding', involving 'transformation', i'd offer the transformation of pebbles on a beach (original 'calculation') into well, calculation, and mathematics, and, ..., nukes.

21:15:33 mircea_popescu: nah.

21:15:42 asciilifeform: wide net, but somewhere in it there flops a fish, 'understanding'

21:16:07 undata: one of you is using understand in a much stricter sense than the other.

21:16:11 mircea_popescu: the sort of understanding you propose is a relationship between mind and object that's transcendental. the ready comparison is the supposed transcendental relation between man and woman.

21:16:26 mircea_popescu: outside of this, all that's left is eliza-understanding.

21:16:56 mircea_popescu: and, obviously, fucking. ie, a manipulation of the subject according to the rules of the reality it inhabits.

21:17:04 mircea_popescu: what eliza does, what no strings attached sex is.

21:17:15 mircea_popescu: if you recognise a naive romanticism in one field, the other should also be obvious.

21:17:21 mircea_popescu: all women are whores and all thinkers are eliza.

21:17:36 asciilifeform: all microscopes are hammers.

21:17:46 nubbins`: all scarves are farts

21:17:48 mircea_popescu: the ability of whores to distinguish themselves from "those cheap streetwalkers" is not that important globally.

21:18:11 mircea_popescu: having more to do with ego and stress than anything

21:18:23 undata: "modeling is by definition incomplete" ?

21:18:42 mircea_popescu: undata if you will. asciilifeform yes, essentially, which is why the microscope hammer thing never persuaded me.

21:19:14 *: asciilifeform is firmly persuaded that every microscope is a hammer. however, not every hammer is a microscope, demonstrably. and therein lies the boojum.

21:19:43 mircea_popescu: not every hammer is a microscope TO YOU

21:19:58 mircea_popescu: not every whore is a partner you'd entertain, but that has little to do with the principles involved.

21:20:40 asciilifeform: the principle involved, i must confess, escapes me

21:20:51 mircea_popescu: let's approach on a different tack.

21:20:56 asciilifeform: and i'm not altogether certain that i'd profit from grasping it

21:21:09 mircea_popescu: what is the method through which i could write software that distinguishes between actual science and global-warming-science ?

21:21:45 asciilifeform: even the elixir of distinguishing cat from dog by mechanical means, so far escapes programmers.

21:21:57 asciilifeform: who would even dare to ask about sciences.

21:22:13 mircea_popescu: well, the reason might be that there couldn't be such a thing. there's nothing that makes "good science" better than a pile of shanonized papers.

21:22:39 mircea_popescu: you can test them, of course, but this is practically speaking aesthetics.

21:22:48 asciilifeform: aha i see where this is going.

21:23:16 mircea_popescu: so, yeah. all thinkers are eliza, the distinguishing among elizas, like among whores, purely an application of one's own aesthetic preference.

21:23:35 nubbins`: no true eliza would offer such an argument

21:23:41 asciilifeform: 'don't worry, sizzling in electric chair, ohm's law is a lie'

21:24:02 asciilifeform: the difference between the flesh before and after, 'aesthetic preference'

21:24:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you a current dreaming it's frying a butterfgly etc

21:24:10 nubbins`: and somewhere, somewhen, the sound of keys clacking on a keyboard was heard

21:24:11 asciilifeform: l0l

21:24:23 nubbins`: ha

21:24:32 undata: "gravity" holds the moon to the earth

21:24:55 nubbins`: _/ -_- _/

21:25:01 mircea_popescu: undata the argument mind, isn't that some eliza-trees don't make much better looking reality-clothes than others.

21:25:12 mircea_popescu: the argument is whether they're actually different.

21:25:47 mircea_popescu: if one function returns rnd(0,15) and the other rnd(20,42) it is easy to establish which returns the larger number,

21:25:54 mircea_popescu: but that doesn't mean they're not the same damned function.

21:26:08 asciilifeform: afaik western traditions of sophistry are not even the most die-hard adherents of this idea. in some variants of islam, they actually believe that 'if the circuit works, it was will of allah' and nothing more

21:26:15 mircea_popescu: and the brain is in no sense and to no degree a logic processing machine.

21:26:18 nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> the argument is whether they're actually different. <<< in the sense that each game of wol is actually different

21:26:21 asciilifeform: and today perhaps the allmighty favours ohm's law, tomorrow - not

21:26:25 mircea_popescu: nor, ironically, are actual logic processing machines all that intelligent.

21:26:27 mircea_popescu: to us at least.

21:26:35 mircea_popescu: nubbins` quite.

21:27:13 asciilifeform: brain is logic machine like brick is flying machine.

21:27:18 mircea_popescu: pretty much yeah.

21:27:24 mircea_popescu: "it can be made to"

21:27:40 asciilifeform: in precisely that way.

21:28:07 undata: mircea_popescu: I'm still chewing on "different" how?

21:28:08 nubbins`: relevant https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxKrskPyBuI

21:28:09 assbot: TripTank - Stoned Ape Theory - YouTube

21:28:18 mircea_popescu: not that any of these subtle considerations have any sort of practical effect or importance,

21:28:27 mircea_popescu: but since the article spoke of "substance" in thought... well...

21:29:01 mircea_popescu: there's no substance to thought.

21:29:38 undata: nubbins`: flashback to 19, tripping like hell, trying to find a firm thought to stand upon

21:29:47 asciilifeform: the idea in the article can (and has) been rephrased like this. if you remove all the 'suggestively-named strings' like 'understand' - and replace with 'gensyms' - e.g., 100324 - does the resulting machine still do or even appear to do anything of interest?

21:30:01 nubbins`: undata terrorizing realization that no such thing exists, etc

21:30:08 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but my point is that this argument misses the very point of what thought is.

21:30:14 undata: nubbins`: I started laughing my ass off and gave up

21:30:17 mircea_popescu: that's what thought is, entirely, all the time : suggestively named strings.

21:30:26 asciilifeform: say, if it was able to distinguish cat from dog, and now operates an automated dogcatcher, prior to the renaming of strings, and still can - there was 'substance.'

21:30:41 mircea_popescu: to the code.

21:31:17 mircea_popescu: ok, let me phrase it thus :

21:32:10 mircea_popescu: mp's lemma of artificial intelligence requires any computer program that exhibits in fact ai to depend in its functioning on the naming of its functions, and that self-metaprogramming be a part of its working.

21:32:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the self-evolving fpga?

21:32:34 mircea_popescu: ok, great example.

21:32:38 asciilifeform: the one where not a single thing about the circuit made sense to the human dissector

21:32:44 mircea_popescu: that thing IS intelligent, just like me and you and the dragonfly.

21:32:44 asciilifeform: but for the fact that it worked.

21:32:53 asciilifeform: where are the namings?

21:33:03 mircea_popescu: how would i know ?

21:33:18 asciilifeform: we might be speaking of different things then, re: 'names'

21:33:28 mircea_popescu: ok, let's re-rephrase :

21:33:45 mircea_popescu: any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI.

21:33:55 asciilifeform: what 'ai and stupidity' was about, was an actual pestilence of pseudoscience, where folks convinced themselves and others that they were accomplishing 'great things' while really pulling each other's dicks in a most stultifying way

21:34:28 mircea_popescu: o for sure, im not even getting into the point of the article. i just went on a tangent for objection reasons, like i do.

21:34:36 asciilifeform: ahahaha.

21:34:42 *: undata tries to create an arbitrary symbol in his mind

21:34:56 asciilifeform: ;;google gensym

21:34:57 gribble: Gensym | Real-Time Management of Mission Critical Systems: http://www.gensym.com/; Product | Gensym: http://www.gensym.com/en/product; Gensym G2 2011 EDITIONS – Product Detail | Gensym: http://www.gensym.com/en/product/G2

21:35:00 undata: Core dumped.

21:35:02 asciilifeform: damn, sp4mz0rs

21:35:12 asciilifeform: ;;google gensym common lisp

21:35:12 gribble: GENSYMs - Common Lisp HyperSpec (TM): http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_gensym.htm; Macros: Defining Your Own - gigamonkeys: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/macros-defining-your-own.html; hygiene-versus-gensym - Community-Scheme-Wiki: http://community.schemewiki.org/?hygiene-versus-gensym

21:35:34 asciilifeform: ^ best representation of the concept i know of

21:36:04 asciilifeform: creates a symbol with no meaning other than identity (cannot add, subtract it, it only has a name and the only permitted operation is determination of identity)

21:36:29 asciilifeform: and, well, assignment

21:36:38 undata: hm

21:36:40 mircea_popescu: i don't think that violates my restatement.

21:37:05 asciilifeform: it's a humble tool, no ai to it at all

21:37:18 asciilifeform: a 'nut' or 'bolt' that i use daily.

21:37:39 mircea_popescu: well yeah but if it did violate restatement then either i'm wrong or no ai can be made to run on lisp machine.

21:37:43 asciilifeform: (gensym) just coughs up a guaranteed-unique object.

21:37:58 mircea_popescu: is this provable to actually work all the time ?

21:38:04 asciilifeform: until exhausted memory.

21:38:16 mircea_popescu: hm

21:38:20 asciilifeform: typically implemented using a counter

21:38:30 mircea_popescu: that smashes eventually no ?

21:38:43 asciilifeform: common lisp numeric tower is a bignum tower

21:38:54 *: mircea_popescu ponders.

21:39:07 asciilifeform: so, in principle, if the machine were to do nothing but cough up 'gensyms' for a few millenia, you will exhaust memory.

21:39:21 asciilifeform: depending on how quickly you can increment

21:39:26 asciilifeform: (and how long machine lasts)

21:39:46 mircea_popescu: i superficially suspect this discussion proves there can never be turing ai.,

21:39:53 mircea_popescu: lisp machine being turing equivalent

21:39:56 asciilifeform: (of course, a gensym, if not garbage collected, also occupies a cell of memory)

21:40:51 asciilifeform: the 'super-turing' machine remains a mystical unicorn.

21:41:02 mircea_popescu: myeah

21:41:03 asciilifeform: not that it has been shown not to exist, but has about the same status as 'god'

21:41:25 asciilifeform: that is, a favourite preoccupation of crackpots of all stripes, and from the whole spectrum of scientific literacy - but no results.

21:42:08 mircea_popescu: well, the only way to build one may be to first build a planet, then let cnc evolve.

21:42:20 mircea_popescu: cns*

21:42:59 asciilifeform: what bothers me most is that most of the 'askers' have no idea what they actually want.

21:43:05 asciilifeform: (from a hypothetical 'ai')

21:43:20 asciilifeform: mechanical best friend?

21:44:39 mircea_popescu: a good example would be, a spontaneous determination to build itself a house,

21:44:46 mircea_popescu: while no identifiable part of the code deals with housebuilding.

21:45:27 asciilifeform: not necessarily disputing the hypothesis - but why the preoccupation with non-identifiable parts?

21:45:31 mircea_popescu: if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent.

21:46:11 asciilifeform: see, we can take this into a place you probably did not intend to go:

21:46:16 asciilifeform: consider 'langton's ant.'

21:46:17 mircea_popescu: lets see!

21:46:17 asciilifeform: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LangtonsAnt.html

21:46:18 assbot: Langton's Ant -- from Wolfram MathWorld

21:46:30 asciilifeform: very simple rules (described on linked article)

21:46:37 asciilifeform: you can write him yourself and try.

21:46:37 mircea_popescu: see, that "intend to go" is exactly why the preoccupation with non identifiability.

21:46:42 mircea_popescu: fuckall cares what i intend.

21:46:46 asciilifeform: well think to the end.

21:46:53 nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> if the machine ends up housed within a house of its own making at the end of a process which was not either understood or its endpoint predictable by observers, well... iut;'s intelligent. <<< mis lados!!

21:47:01 asciilifeform: what we know is that everyone who ever tried langton's ant, notices that he always 'builds a road'

21:47:11 asciilifeform: no matter what is on the playing field at the beginning

21:47:19 asciilifeform: or what 'bombs' (to use 'war of life' terminology) you drop.

21:47:24 asciilifeform: sooner or later - he builds it.

21:47:36 asciilifeform: could be after thousands of moves.

21:47:47 mircea_popescu: okay.

21:47:49 asciilifeform: no one has proven anything, afaik, of substance, about whether the ant will always build the road.

21:48:02 asciilifeform: but experimentally no one has (yet) found counter-example.

21:48:07 mircea_popescu: so your argument is that ant meets my definition of ai ?

21:48:13 asciilifeform: well, that part.

21:48:19 asciilifeform: yes.

21:48:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13889 @ 0.0004217 = 5.857 BTC [-]

21:48:27 mircea_popescu: how do you identify a highway as a house ?

21:48:40 asciilifeform: same way you identify a house as a house.

21:48:46 mircea_popescu: say if you showed this process to 1k randomly selected 5 yos, would they say "it built itself a house" ?

21:49:01 asciilifeform: who am i to say that a repeating cycle of moves is not 'house' for the automaton.

21:49:07 nubbins`: ^

21:49:09 mircea_popescu: to us.

21:49:13 mircea_popescu: not to it. that's the point. to us.

21:49:13 asciilifeform: the way that my 4 walls are a repeating cycle of moves to me.

21:49:28 mircea_popescu: *we* have to recognise what it does.

21:49:56 asciilifeform: this goes back to my complaint about the ai wishers. they aren't asking for 'intelligence', just a mechanical but recognizable version of themselves

21:50:03 asciilifeform: or, at least, what they think of as themselves.

21:50:24 mircea_popescu: well, this definition is, "when you recognise what's being done, but neither why nor how, you're confronted with intelligence"

21:51:06 undata: seems a lot that passes for human intelligence is driven by autonomous processes evolution carved into us, just like the ant

21:51:10 mircea_popescu: this is counterintuitive, because we're very ethnicallyclose, so to speak,

21:51:12 nubbins`: recognize is an overly broad term for this discussion

21:51:12 asciilifeform: or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet.

21:51:20 mircea_popescu: so we eliza-recognise what WE do on the grounds of culture and convention

21:51:30 mircea_popescu: when intelligences meet without that basis, superamazement ensues.

21:51:47 undata: when two of those ants hit each other, do they combine their "houses"?

21:51:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, see, it's not a black box.

21:51:57 *: nubbins` recalls the (clarke?) short story about an intelligent electrical field

21:52:01 Adlai: excellent turminology, this! http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Turmite.html

21:52:02 assbot: Turmite -- from Wolfram MathWorld

21:52:07 asciilifeform: this is an ancient argument - 'the sea is very intelligent but we just aren't protocol compatible and can't see that it's even alive'

21:52:28 mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> any computer program of which identifiable components can be unambiguously named is not capable of displaying AI. << this obviously requires you to be allowed under the hood.

21:52:30 asciilifeform: i have limited patience for it because of the sheer lack of predictive power.

21:52:36 mircea_popescu: otherwise windows is ai for crying out loud.

21:52:37 undata: nubbins`: Greg Egan did one with intelligent turbulence

21:52:45 nubbins`: asciilifeform unfortunately the sea won't be seen as alive until after it's dead D:

21:52:46 asciilifeform: undata: yes i recall that one. 'dust.'

21:53:14 mircea_popescu: well it all started with you asking for a definition of ai.

21:53:16 nubbins`: i recall reading a young adult novel about intelligent crystals

21:53:23 nubbins`: suspended in fluid iirc

21:53:29 nubbins`: one of those "my teacher is an alien" type ones

21:53:48 asciilifeform: undata: in fact, i recall that he had a character who is being marched to a mafia execution, and offered a magic pill before being shot. the pill wakes him up to the idea that his mind is already being simulated on a 'computer' made of space dust, somewhere, if only 'interpreted correctly'

21:53:55 Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922181 << so do you count an entire beehive/anthill as intelligent, but not any single member individually?

21:53:55 assbot: Logged on 14-11-2014 21:44:39; mircea_popescu: a good example would be, a spontaneous determination to build itself a house,

21:54:12 mircea_popescu: Adlai yes, actually.

21:54:26 mircea_popescu: perhaps except for the queen, but that's an endless discussion.

21:57:02 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> or with an entirely non-interactive and ultimately easily described physical system that you simply don't grasp yet. << incidentally, the brain seems to fit this quite exactly.

21:57:29 nubbins`: i know people claim that there's an upper bound on the complexity that can form in a cellular-automaton-type system with simple rules

21:57:42 Adlai: you could roughly equate the queen of an ant colony to a human brain's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_formation#Clinical_significance ?

21:57:44 assbot: Reticular formation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

21:57:44 nubbins`: but i feel like the upper bound is significantly higher than people realize

21:58:07 mircea_popescu: Adlai maybe, but i'm very wary of recent brainscience.

21:58:10 asciilifeform: nubbins`: none of the claims, for whatever measure of 'complexity', amount to anything more than farts in the wind.

21:58:23 Adlai: which is why I linked to clinical examples, rather than speculation

21:58:26 asciilifeform: nubbins`: see the discussion last year of the 'entropy' of the digits of 'pi'.

21:58:31 asciilifeform: they max out every known measure

21:58:33 asciilifeform: (save for one.)

21:58:34 Adlai: would the same happen to an ant colony if you kidnapped the queen?

21:58:54 asciilifeform: and at the same time, the digits can be spat out by a very simple mechanism.

21:59:02 nubbins`: asciilifeform i fell into a black hole halfway through my cs/math joint major on points like these

21:59:05 asciilifeform: (see bailey borwein plouffe.)

21:59:24 mircea_popescu: Adlai generally most ant colonies have emergency backups always ready

21:59:34 mircea_popescu: if queen dies newborn queen emerges almost immediately.

21:59:50 mircea_popescu: some collapse tho, for various reasons

21:59:58 asciilifeform: this is no more surprising than skin on your finger regrowing.

22:00:03 mircea_popescu: right

22:00:04 Adlai: in humans neurons, queen damage is recoverable, with assistance from other colonies

22:00:26 mircea_popescu: well not really, neurons don't regrow like ants do.

22:00:48 asciilifeform: (there is some dispute re: whether and under what circumstances neurons regrow.)

22:01:03 Adlai: they could with external support. maybe not today, but it's easily possible within a few hundred years.

22:01:20 mircea_popescu: as opposed to moderately possible within a few thousand years ?

22:01:27 asciilifeform: lol!

22:01:27 mircea_popescu: how'dja compute those parameters ?

22:01:39 nubbins`: heh.

22:02:00 Adlai: well my initial random was "certain within decades", but then I toned it down a few orders of fartitude

22:02:10 mircea_popescu: lol

22:02:21 nubbins`: i was going to guess you used differential equations

22:02:27 Adlai: the exact timescale doesn't matter, it'll happen

22:02:47 mircea_popescu: you can feel it in your urine ?

22:03:29 Adlai: you don't think this is possible?

22:03:34 undata: What if certain things are just out of reach? Maybe the complete model is simple, but the approximations leading to it are larger than brains can handle?

22:04:04 nubbins`: see symbolic integration vs numerical methods

22:04:13 mircea_popescu: Adlai i have no idea, but i suspect your conviction is more informed by a faint whiff of a personal desire to survive/fear of death than anything else.

22:04:35 nubbins`: undata the complete model has maybe 2 rules tops

22:04:38 Adlai: of course. i'd say it's less a fear and more an underlying aspiration

22:04:44 undata: nubbins`: who knows; not I

22:05:29 nubbins`: nor anyone

22:05:35 mircea_popescu: Adlai why would you want to live forever already.

22:05:43 Adlai: to see what happens

22:05:44 mircea_popescu: haven't had enough of idiots yet ?

22:05:49 nubbins`: i suppose if you want to get cheeky it's (1) wiggle (2) if bumped, wiggle less

22:05:53 mircea_popescu: yeah, what is going to happen. i wonder.

22:06:17 nubbins`: we're just starting from a really really complex initial state ;D

22:06:18 asciilifeform: 'live long enough to see the buggers off.'

22:06:23 asciilifeform: modest aspiration.

22:06:36 mircea_popescu: lol

22:07:22 Adlai: :-o "millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon" by the guy who died on a Sunday afternoon

22:07:36 asciilifeform: arse longa, cocka shorta.

22:07:40 asciilifeform: or what did mircea_popescu say.

22:07:47 undata: most of the things in my head, somebody/something else put there

22:07:50 Adlai: although I doubt LA was rainy in june

22:07:51 undata: not much lost when I die

22:08:03 undata: and I question the "most"

22:08:25 Adlai: http://youtu.be/NoAzpa1x7jU

22:08:26 assbot: Blade Runner - Final scene, "Tears in Rain" Soliloquy (HD) - YouTube

22:09:00 asciilifeform: 'i have seen the ships on fire at the edge of orion...'

22:09:01 asciilifeform: that one/

22:09:02 asciilifeform: .

22:09:09 mircea_popescu: undata i recall reading this east-side of cold war story (rdg it was i think ?), about the drink that bestowed immortality, and how obnoxious old people were, 700+ yo clinging on to life to "see who wins whatever games"

22:09:17 asciilifeform: probably one of the best known scenes in all of film.

22:09:24 mircea_popescu: in fairness, the commies were very well familiar with the problem of just-wont-fucking-die-already dinosaurs

22:09:31 mircea_popescu: something the us is getting more and more acquainted with.

22:09:33 asciilifeform: ahahaha lol yes

22:09:34 *: nubbins` ponders turmite / langton's ant steady states as analogies for steady states in human behaviour

22:09:39 asciilifeform: ;;google gerontocracy

22:09:40 gribble: Gerontocracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerontocracy; Gerontocracy - Merriam-Webster Online: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gerontocracy; Gerontocracy | Define Gerontocracy at Dictionary.com: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gerontocracy

22:09:49 asciilifeform: wow no specifically soviet refs

22:09:49 Adlai: !s bill maher

22:09:50 assbot: 6 results for 'bill maher' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bill+maher

22:09:54 nubbins`: somewhere out there, a guy named langton is eating chips on the couch and watching seinfeld. again.

22:09:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's the normally sclerotic reaction of society to a dissolution of values

22:10:06 mircea_popescu: the east destroyed its value system "for socialism"

22:10:15 mircea_popescu: the west did too, for... well... "fairness" i guess, same bs.

22:10:34 mircea_popescu: only way to select people now is age, which explains disasters like nanci pelosi

22:11:09 Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919815 << what'll happen once old people live long enough to form their own tribes/societies? would this be some weird form of speciation?

22:11:09 assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 14:50:21; xanthyos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kWaKhrpa28

22:12:17 undata: mircea_popescu: seems the hive would lose the ability to adapt without some mental youth elixir being invented alongside

22:12:40 mircea_popescu: but see... because of the "nonviolent principle" or w/e, it doesnt HAVE TO adapt anymore.

22:12:42 asciilifeform: Adlai: for that to work, different definition of 'old' would have to apply.

22:12:56 undata: mircea_popescu: and the lamb laid down with the lion

22:12:58 *: undata does big arms

22:13:07 asciilifeform: Adlai: you don't really see, e.g., 40 y.o. 'speciating' into own socity from 30 y.o

22:13:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't get out much, do you ?

22:13:21 asciilifeform: nope.

22:13:23 nubbins`: heh

22:13:29 mircea_popescu: 40yo male, with a buncha chicks. 20 yo male, in a group of derps.

22:13:36 mircea_popescu: quite fucking speciously speciated.

22:13:45 asciilifeform: opposite arrangement here

22:13:52 mircea_popescu: hence speciously :D

22:14:04 Adlai: and i'm wondering what will happen once we have a MUCH wider age range of active individuals

22:14:12 asciilifeform: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2012/09/le-vieillard-gros.html << obligatory mr. o on old age

22:14:13 assbot: ClubOrlov: Le Vieillard Gros

22:14:20 Adlai: which will certainly happen within decades!

22:14:26 mircea_popescu: no it wont

22:14:39 mircea_popescu: part of the reason there's going to be blood is that there's too many old people.

22:14:42 asciilifeform: flying on cold-fusion (or fart) powered rocket packs, yes.

22:15:07 Adlai: well, old people who don't keep supporting themselves enough to stay alive without support from other tribes... will die of old age

22:15:11 mircea_popescu: incidentally, my favourite discussion of the topic is balzac. eugenie grandet.

22:15:32 mircea_popescu: Adlai you don't understand. there's nothing more readily cohesive of a group than hatred for old people.

22:15:43 mircea_popescu: look into london riots.

22:16:05 asciilifeform: !s harpagon

22:16:06 assbot: 4 results for 'harpagon' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=harpagon

22:16:08 Adlai: so they'll hire xenotribal mercenaries

22:16:24 mircea_popescu: lmao

22:16:30 mircea_popescu: are you like, new under the sun ?

22:16:37 Adlai: such as... police forces, armies, etc

22:16:50 mircea_popescu: suppose kim kardashian goes around drunk in the bad part of detroit, gets raped by a gang of thugs

22:16:58 mircea_popescu: hires a different gang of thugs to... kill the first gang ?

22:17:10 mircea_popescu: sure. they also fuck her, then they go have a drink with the first gang, exchange impressions.

22:17:46 asciilifeform: afaik traditional scheme is for the armies to fight in perpetual deadlock, as if they were the ruminants with horns set at such an angle as to be of no use

22:17:54 Adlai: basically, that's what happens when tribes/nation[/-]states attack eachother

22:17:57 asciilifeform: while herr harpagon watches and laughs

22:18:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that scheme only works when there's few old guys.

22:18:34 mircea_popescu: well, actually, i suspect old gals is more of a burden, but who knows.

22:19:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there are still 'few old guys.' they see the remaining many as impostors, but are not particularly afraid of them. they have pills for this ('obamacare' etc.)

22:19:21 mircea_popescu: i guess.

22:19:29 mircea_popescu: but the problem is the swarming instinct.

22:19:43 asciilifeform: pelosi is not in any sense afraid of random mrs. smith

22:19:43 mircea_popescu: you know, peacible grasshoppers suddenly change mode because they got touched on the toes by others too many times.

22:20:06 mircea_popescu: no, but her ability to continue in relevance is a strict function of how many mrs smith johnny perceives a day.

22:20:18 mircea_popescu: because if he perceives too many, he's going to go "fuck you, and your laws, and your union"

22:20:22 mircea_popescu: something like the ferguson stuff.

22:20:47 asciilifeform: quite a few folks say 'ferguson' when discussion hypothetical phase transition, but i must disagree.

22:21:05 asciilifeform: lizard-hitler loves it when his zoo animals fight ineffectually among themselves

22:21:09 mircea_popescu: fine, whatever unquenchable permariots. the paris stuff.

22:21:11 asciilifeform: burn down own tenements, etc.

22:21:18 asciilifeform: same deal there

22:21:33 mircea_popescu: now look. im not saying the small scale thing is effectual.

22:21:37 asciilifeform: usa had a much closer shave before

22:21:41 mircea_popescu: what i am saying is that the mechanism clearly exists.

22:21:54 asciilifeform: if you visit wash.,d.c. you can see that in the '70s a good chunk of the place got 'detroit'ed.

22:22:03 asciilifeform: but not the organs of usg, nor of finance.

22:22:30 mircea_popescu: this is exactly how capitals work

22:22:34 mircea_popescu: same happened to bucharest, also in 70s

22:22:43 asciilifeform: mechanism exists, but i have no idea what it looks like in application to modern usa.

22:22:45 mircea_popescu: i suspect also moscow

22:22:47 asciilifeform: and neither does anyone else

22:22:50 mircea_popescu: well me either, what am i. mafalda.

22:22:55 asciilifeform: l0l

22:22:59 asciilifeform: vanga!

22:23:01 asciilifeform: (ru equivalent)

22:24:13 mircea_popescu: myeah.

22:24:42 asciilifeform: (for n00bs only: who is 'lizard hitler' ? a character approximately as real as magnetic field lines were to michael faraday. don't look for magnetic field lines, they aren't there. physically. or as far as we can tell, anyway.)

22:27:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92800 @ 0.00042935 = 39.8437 BTC [+]

22:27:39 mircea_popescu: so basically we could say it's "the understanding" of magnetism ?

22:27:52 asciilifeform: at least partly.

22:28:13 asciilifeform: 'the map is not the territory, but you can't fold up the territory and fit it in your glove compartment.'

22:28:32 cazalla: wru scoopbot, http://qntra.net/2014/11/nasaa-top-investor-threats/

22:28:32 assbot: NASAA: Top Investor Threats | Qntra.net

22:29:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3381 @ 0.00042935 = 1.4516 BTC [+]

22:29:14 asciilifeform: oh noez, competing chumpatrons, must d3str0y

22:30:26 mircea_popescu: da fuck is nasaa

22:30:35 mircea_popescu: all these important things i don't know about!

22:30:39 asciilifeform: http://worth1000.s3.amazonaws.com/submissions/183500/183879_8c00_625x1000.jpg

22:31:00 mircea_popescu: lol

22:31:04 mircea_popescu: can this be like, our god ?

22:31:16 asciilifeform: aha.

22:31:19 mircea_popescu: cool.

22:31:44 mircea_popescu: lizard hitler is nowwith bitcoin jesus.

22:42:46 TheNewDeal: lizard hitler is dating bitcoin jesus?

22:43:05 TheNewDeal: !s bitcoin jesus

22:43:06 assbot: 64 results for 'bitcoin jesus' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bitcoin+jesus

22:43:58 cazalla: ignoring the paedos, i thought this was a good model for a porn site http://www.deepdotweb.com/2014/11/09/as-drug-markets-are-seized-pedophiles-launch-a-crowdfunding-site/

22:43:59 assbot: While Markets Get Seized: Pedophiles Launch a Crowdfunding Site - Deep Dot Web

22:45:47 cazalla: what are the odds such a site is a honey pot?

22:45:58 asciilifeform: !s the man who was thursday

22:45:58 assbot: 4 results for 'the man who was thursday' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=the+man+who+was+thursday

22:46:39 mircea_popescu: cazalla about 11 in 5.

22:46:46 asciilifeform: cazalla: the whole thing exists only as a honeypot, even when it doesn't.

22:47:32 asciilifeform: what is a honeypot if not each and every criminal undertaking that steps outside of its 'wot' ?

22:47:43 asciilifeform: and opens self to strangers

22:48:14 asciilifeform: (for whatever value of 'criminal', in whatever kingdom or time)

22:49:23 asciilifeform: at any rate, the incentive for the buggers to fabricate 'terrorist atrocities' is so overwhelming, that any such item is guilty until proven innocent of being just such a crock of shit.

22:50:15 asciilifeform: not that i personally give a damn whether a particular honeypot is artificial or 'wild.'

22:55:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11500 @ 0.00043338 = 4.9839 BTC [+]

23:03:00 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/i-dont-know-what-the-hell-i-said-i-gave-her-an-ultimatum-and-theres-nothing-i-can-do-its-a-machine-the-little-light-is-blinking-right-now-come-and-listen-to-the-idiot-hey-everybody-the-i/

23:03:00 assbot: I don’t know what the hell I said. I gave her an ultimatum and there’s nothing I can do. It’s a machine. The little light is blinking right now: ‘Come and listen to the idiot. Hey everybody, the idiot’s on!’ pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

23:03:34 asciilifeform: lol!

23:03:37 mircea_popescu: hehe

23:03:38 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu lets nothing go to waste.

23:03:45 mircea_popescu: i am an ant!

23:07:03 cazalla: Eliza needs a footnote?

23:07:31 mircea_popescu: well for prosteriority.

23:07:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90950 @ 0.00042509 = 38.6619 BTC [-] {3}

23:07:45 mircea_popescu: where prost means stupid, at least in romanian.

23:10:05 asciilifeform: 3rd conference << 2nd?

23:10:13 asciilifeform: (endnote vi)

23:10:26 mircea_popescu: $conference

23:10:26 empyex: mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 5 months and 3 days. Estimated cost today: 3.30951486 BTC (Details: http://fraudsters.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )

23:10:33 mircea_popescu: right you are

23:10:54 asciilifeform: unless there was a lizards-only 0th conference...

23:11:43 asciilifeform: herr dooglus must be on an ip-over-dead-goat acoustic-coupler modem...

23:13:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually weizenbaum's story is more interesting than the 'prosteriority' lets on.

23:13:18 asciilifeform: many people figured it out very quickly.

23:13:27 asciilifeform: but his secretary (young woman) - notably - did not

23:13:35 asciilifeform: and insisted that the thing was 'alive' and 'understood her'

23:13:44 mircea_popescu: yup. it works as a trap for particular people

23:13:48 mircea_popescu: rather than a universal problem

23:13:51 asciilifeform: she demanded to be 'let alone with it'

23:14:12 asciilifeform: and that was when we learned that there are those among us who... fail turing test.

23:14:21 mircea_popescu: nah, the two are not the same.

23:14:28 asciilifeform: well, inverse turing test.

23:14:40 mircea_popescu: understand something : if female brain were not hackable, if female vulva had no opening, there'd be no species.

23:14:51 jurov: wow that discussion... rather novel restatement of the question whether a soul exists

23:14:51 mircea_popescu: she hacks herself. of course she does. so what of it ?

23:15:00 asciilifeform: nitpick.

23:15:00 Adlai: !s 4781

23:15:01 assbot: 1 results for '4781' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=4781

23:15:03 mircea_popescu: jurov quite.

23:15:07 Adlai: anybody read this? ^^

23:15:23 asciilifeform: i not infrequently read esr

23:15:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im just saying, let's not confuse those who pass the fertility test with those who fail the turing test.

23:15:30 Adlai: (the book, not the review itself)

23:15:40 asciilifeform: (esr suffers from some of the same problems as taleb)

23:15:56 mircea_popescu: Adlai i linked it neh ?

23:16:24 Adlai: http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=4781 (because assbot apparently isn't self-aware yet)

23:16:24 assbot: 1 results for '4781' - #bitcoin-assets search

23:16:39 Adlai: er, shit. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#921595

23:16:39 assbot: Logged on 14-11-2014 10:10:46; mircea_popescu: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4781 and it's really good, too.

23:16:53 asciilifeform: the book? can't say that i have

23:17:17 Adlai: or it could specialcase finding only a single result

23:17:20 asciilifeform: but from the article, it sounds deeply reminiscent of a similar turd, 'cyberselfish'

23:17:49 asciilifeform: ( http://www.motherjones.com/politics/1996/07/cyberselfish << briefly described here.)

23:17:50 assbot: Cyberselfish | Mother Jones

23:27:14 mircea_popescu: Our biggest concern is the welfare of children who appear on this site. {Site name redacted} has a ZERO tolerance policy for rape or

23:27:18 mircea_popescu: what the fuck reporting is this.

23:31:01 mircea_popescu: !up romkor_

23:31:29 mircea_popescu: Adlai ah, the book. no, never have.

23:32:20 Adlai: has anybody automated assbot auth?

23:33:49 mircea_popescu: you mean gribble ?

23:35:05 mircea_popescu: Adlai http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/GPG_authentication#Helper_scripts like that ?

23:35:09 assbot: GPG authentication - bitcoin-otc wiki

23:36:35 Adlai: amazingly nobody seems to use btc address auth. wtf?

23:36:35 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

23:36:41 Adlai: srsly bro

23:39:14 mircea_popescu: what's so amazing about this ?

23:39:14 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

23:39:41 mircea_popescu: badly thought out, pointless functionality doesn't get much use among the sane.

23:40:50 Adlai: it's not any better than gpg auth, but i don't see why it's any worse either

23:41:12 Adlai: although i guess it's less convenient to keep using in the face of existing automation of gpg auth

23:41:30 mircea_popescu: vulpes explains this if memory serves.

23:42:29 mircea_popescu: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/20_a-summary-of-changes-to-bitcoin-since-0321.html#fn.24 there.

23:42:30 assbot: A summary of changes to Bitcoin since 0.3.21

23:43:00 Adlai: thx, not much luck slogging through http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=from%3Aben_vulpes+auth*

23:43:00 assbot: 16 results for 'from:ben_vulpes auth*' - #bitcoin-assets search

23:44:05 asciilifeform: whether this particular microscope is fit for use as a hammer, depends on two very separate questions - what you think of ecdsa, and what you think of bitcoind

23:45:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not even getting into these technical discussion : getting people to use their credit cards as identification paperwork is a bad idea.

23:46:01 asciilifeform: one could in principle maintain a bitcoin 'keypair' for the purpose of abusing it for public key signatures

23:46:05 asciilifeform: but why?

23:46:16 mircea_popescu: the only proper way to use bitcoin addresses as identification correctly is to run a never-connected node that has no balance.

23:46:24 mircea_popescu: this is so braindamaged as to leave one breathless.

23:46:25 asciilifeform: well yes.

23:46:27 asciilifeform: but still why.

23:46:33 Adlai: frankly, my crypto knowledge is lacking to have anything meaningful to say on this issue, beyond "gpg keys can have an order of magnitude more entropy than bitcoin pubkey hashes"

23:46:37 asciilifeform: get a hammer, leave microscope alone.

23:47:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you asking me why or the abuser why ?

23:47:09 asciilifeform: the abuser.

23:47:12 mircea_popescu: right.

23:47:31 Adlai: my reason/excuse has mainly been convenience, i had the btc auth set up years ago before i'd ever used gpg

23:47:40 mircea_popescu: convenience is the enemy, of course.

23:47:51 mircea_popescu: anwyay : you'll also notice we quite strictly use 4kb rsa sigs in our gpg

23:48:01 mircea_popescu: as pointedly opposed to using the ecdsa in bitcoin

23:48:12 mircea_popescu: now imagine what happens if either is breached somehow.

23:48:26 asciilifeform: 'Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing; 'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands; But he that filches from me my good name...'

23:48:47 mircea_popescu: quite.

23:48:47 Adlai: a stricter form of identity verification would require breaching *both*, rather than either, or only one

23:49:14 mircea_popescu: double the hassle of logging. tide's not really that high yet.

23:49:36 Adlai: ;;ident

23:49:36 gribble: Nick 'Adlai', with hostmask 'Adlai!~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai', is identified as user 'Adlai', with GPG key id 4D88596A7CDA03F9, key fingerprint FCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9, and bitcoin address 13dkw1PtojBW74FN7ERbHqoEvgsTmtARuj

23:49:56 mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust Adlai

23:49:56 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Adlai!~Adlai@gateway/tor-sasl/adlai. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user Adlai: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=Adlai | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Adlai | Rated since: Sat Oct 11 10:15:58 2014

23:50:00 Adlai: how charming, i'm only btc authed, but gribble presents it as though i'm gpg authed too

23:50:15 mircea_popescu: Adlai it just says "you're authed" and lists how that could be

23:50:40 Adlai: you may understand that, but it's not evident purely from response to ;;dient

23:50:49 mircea_popescu: anyway, seems you first logged last month, what do you mean "btc auth set up for years" ?

23:50:54 thestringpuller: "The cryptography is the strongest point. Your enemies will attack the weakest point, which is you."

23:51:09 mircea_popescu: well no meaningful content is directly obvious from the form of expression. you gotta know what the words sya.

23:51:19 Adlai: i've had btc auth set up for around two years

23:51:25 mircea_popescu: like how ?

23:51:30 Adlai: i only set up gpg auth a few weeks ago

23:52:36 Adlai: compare: http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewgpg.php?nick=adlai and http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0xFCBC64EFDF1D6C1E4E964AEE4D88596A7CDA03F9

23:52:37 assbot: #bitcoin-otc gpg key data

23:53:04 mircea_popescu: "Lest this all seem merely amusing, meditate on the fate of those who have tampered with words before. The behaviorists ruined words like "behavior", "response", and especially, "learning". They now pl-ay happily in a dream world, internally consistent but lost to science."

23:53:07 mircea_popescu: oh boy, quite.

23:53:26 Adlai: where are you going with that quote?

23:53:38 mircea_popescu: 2012-10-06 04:55:28 aha

23:53:46 Adlai: indeed :)

23:53:48 mircea_popescu: Adlai unrelated to our convo.

23:53:58 Adlai: oook

23:56:04 Adlai: perhaps better data, from your very own: http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3B241BB6119757556F33339EFC6D3849C1ED1485C66C9D0D0A9506199D7402D0

23:56:05 assbot: Welcome | Phuctor

23:56:28 Adlai: oh, that submission date is today. nvm.

23:56:32 asciilifeform: lol wasn't meant to be used as an authoritative keyserver.

23:56:42 asciilifeform: (only updates when someone craps a key in)

23:59:37 Adlai: hah, i'd forgotten this already: http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/29F24169A59A5BE1ACC8FCE0E852F4AE1C2A83C2F6B6902D6FA363BFC983ACBA

23:59:39 assbot: Welcome | Phuctor