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Transcript for 15-04-2016, 162 lines:

01:33:03 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439145 -- i expect rocks thrown at me again and davout looking at me with great vengeance and furious anger, however i think this may not be quite so simple, let me try to explain.

01:33:03 assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 18:59:09; davout: asciilifeform: do you agree that, if the 17 btc mp sent a second time aren't billed to bbet, it follows that this second transaction can't come in deduction of bbet liabilities to bettors/addresses?

01:33:16 kakobrekla: now this is all rather theoretical but nevertheless lets give it a go - as already established bitbet payouts were not unambiguous - this was possibly a flaw in design as at no point there wast any explicit statement published that would be claiming that 'this are _the_ coins owed' - from which it follows that any payment made to a given winning address (made after the bet was made) could in fact be treated as deduction of liability

01:33:16 kakobrekla: towards payout of that winning bet, irrespective if bitcoins come from bb, mp or jesus himself. in that sense the proper way to use bb and to prevent that from happening would be to use a unique payout address every single time (which was probably done to an extent) and not use that address for anything else - at least until the bb payout arrives.

01:33:22 kakobrekla: you also might want to ask 'but wai kako wai??' and i can tell you that it brings me no pleasure that the schmucks who got the double payment are going to get away with it victorious and would rather do something more interesting. in fact i personally would rather see that mp gets the difference even though he has shown absolute incompetence in handling bitcoin payments and is the actual culprit of this satirical liquidation of bb while

01:33:22 kakobrekla: actually being liquid - although technically speaking from this perspective the difference should just lessen bb liabilities.

01:35:29 kakobrekla: comments or questions welcome

01:37:50 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: looks pretty much like what i said ?

01:38:28 kakobrekla: you answered 'aha' to davout a couple of lines below that???

01:38:41 kakobrekla: or was that later on

01:39:07 asciilifeform: i utterly forget, will have to reread.

01:39:24 kakobrekla: eh dont you have more important things to do?

01:39:29 asciilifeform: but triple-paying the thieving swine who happily pocketed the double-pay never made any sense to me.

01:39:31 asciilifeform: still doesn't.

01:40:38 kakobrekla: anyway im not saying you didnt say it. what i am saying that its not accounted for in that way in the current statement and id like to see it so. because this is technically passable with ease.

01:41:09 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: aha, some anon helpfully did the arithmetic even.

01:41:55 kakobrekla: yes. then we got stuck "davout refuses mp bill, bb did not pay that second tx, all hell is loose" afaik

01:44:07 kakobrekla: (which btw reminds me: notice how mp is eating his own shit he tried to serve me)

01:44:36 asciilifeform: approx.

01:45:33 kakobrekla: good enough.

06:38:08 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-04-2016#1444035 <<< makes strictly zero sense to me

06:38:08 assbot: Logged on 15-04-2016 01:33:22; kakobrekla: you also might want to ask 'but wai kako wai??' and i can tell you that it brings me no pleasure that the schmucks who got the double payment are going to get away with it victorious and would rather do something more interesting. in fact i personally would rather see that mp gets the difference even though he has shown absolute incompetence in handling bitcoin payments and is the actual culprit of this

10:35:31 kakobrekla: why is that davout?

10:43:13 davout: kakobrekla: because 'donations' always existed in bitcoin, and it's really nothing to fret about, is it?

10:44:23 davout: bitbet itself has benefited from a bunch of them

10:45:56 kakobrekla: davout from a practical perspective: bettor B makes a bet and uses payout address A. before the bet is paid out, he receives as sum exceeding the winnings on that address from X. now, how is he going to show, mathematically, logically, that that payment was in fact not bitbet paying out his winnings?

10:46:41 davout: he doesn't, but what does it have to do with anything?

10:46:41 kakobrekla: as for you second comment, it was already stated by the great mp that 'users cant make 0fee tx and bitbet can' i can prolly dig it up

10:47:15 davout: yeah yeah, mp also said all valid bitcoin addresses must start with "1", now what of it?

10:48:55 kakobrekla: what do you mean what of it? if the address A already received, how can he or you or me know its not bitbets payout?

10:54:46 davout: kakobrekla: since when is "mathematically proving the claim is not settled" a condition for a bettor to be paid his winnings?

10:55:47 davout: decent people and businesses pay what they owe, not what their clients and counterparties can "mathematically prove they still owe"

10:56:42 kakobrekla: this is going to be end up a deliberate overpaying

10:56:52 kakobrekla: -be

10:56:53 davout: come on

10:57:01 davout: let's turn the argument around shall we

10:57:05 kakobrekla: lets

10:57:31 davout: can *you* mathematically prove mp didn't owe all these addresses these particular amounts on entirely unrelated business?

10:57:41 kakobrekla: this is in fact irrelevant

10:58:24 davout: how is that? maybe he did owe all these people this money and you're trying to pass the payment he made on business irrelevant to bitbet as a bitbet liability settlement

10:58:32 davout: that is relevant

10:58:54 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-04-2016#1444034

10:58:54 assbot: Logged on 15-04-2016 01:33:16; kakobrekla: towards payout of that winning bet, irrespective if bitcoins come from bb, mp or jesus himself. in that sense the proper way to use bb and to prevent that from happening would be to use a unique payout address every single time (which was probably done to an extent) and not use that address for anything else - at least until the bb payout arrives.

10:59:18 kakobrekla: this follows from the fact bitbet did not specify "this is our payout" ever

11:00:03 davout: the problem never arose, but if it had people would have been like "ok bitbet fuckers, you claim this is you paying? ok, prove it by signing with an origin address"

11:00:53 davout: because obviously 'specify "this is our payout"' is one thing, and 'proving this is ones payout' is an entirely different thing

11:01:05 kakobrekla: this is the same as entertaining a claim "you did not pay out my 1.87654321 btc to address A" while we are observing a tx with "1.87654321" btc on that address.

11:02:19 davout: where's your "mathematically proving" gone now?

11:02:46 kakobrekla: im telling you that you can entertain that such claim.

11:02:49 kakobrekla: cant*

11:03:17 davout: of course you can, it's not like the 1.87654321 number is reserved for use by anyone, is it?

11:03:22 *: kakobrekla brb caffeine

11:03:26 davout: lol

11:03:31 *: davout brb nicotine

11:03:39 kakobrekla: dude i just woke up!

11:10:16 kakobrekla: anyway, the fact that alf seems to be understanding this and even suggested it apparently makes me think im not speaking martian here

11:10:33 kakobrekla: so lets try to continue

11:10:59 davout: kakobrekla: LOL

11:11:12 davout: i guess when you don't have kids the 'waking up' part is not constrained :)

11:11:14 kakobrekla: im funny you see

11:11:34 davout: you don't seem in a humorous mood this morning

11:11:44 kakobrekla: ah that, yes i could theoretically lie in bed for years

11:11:58 davout: would be depressing

11:12:13 davout: mornings are my favourite part of the day

11:12:38 kakobrekla: its morning when _i_ wake up

11:12:58 davout: something you and mp have in common apparently :D

11:13:11 kakobrekla: l0l

11:13:29 kakobrekla: thats why we get along so well

11:13:36 davout: heh

11:14:33 davout: i'll be home alone for the next week, i'll enjoy the kako-lifestyle at that point

11:14:41 davout: such vacation

11:14:50 kakobrekla: aha!

11:15:06 kakobrekla: lemme warn you, once you go kako you may never want to go back

11:15:31 davout: well, i kinda signed up for 20 years with the kids

11:15:46 kakobrekla: i see. this was recently?

11:16:03 davout: well, my eldest one is 6, the little one is 9 months old

11:16:38 davout: i can't wait for the youngest one to acquire the 'autopilot' and 'voice commands' skills

11:16:43 davout: 'go take your shower'

11:16:46 davout: 'get dressed'

11:16:47 kakobrekla: oh i didnt know you were almost grandpa. congrats for keeping them alive so long - both of them!

11:16:54 davout: lol

11:17:09 davout: teh life of a patriarch

11:17:41 davout: i'm off for lunch, bbiab

11:17:46 kakobrekla: enjoy

11:54:38 kakobrekla: to put the problem in yet another form: establishing bitbet payouts was purely probabilistic thing since day 1. it boggles my mind how can you possibly dismiss the option that bitbet did not in fact already pay out those bets and at the same time accept chinese konpiraci as a thing.

11:55:29 kakobrekla: -not

13:17:46 *: kakobrekla can hardly handle the overwhelming response

13:19:23 adlai: so doe people now need to read two logses, or is one enough? pick by coinflip or block hash lottery?

13:20:08 thestringpuller: adlai: it's resorted to MP talking shit about kako in other channel.

13:20:15 kakobrekla: afaik lukejrs read the new one and approx nobody reads this one

13:21:14 kakobrekla: but i dunno since when quantity of readership is an important thing

13:21:17 adlai: in other words, the operation was a smashing success!

13:21:30 *: adlai goes back to worrying about his self-help blog

13:21:46 kakobrekla: i think it was a success from for both sides

13:21:51 kakobrekla: -from

13:22:06 kakobrekla: idk whats up with the words today.

13:22:38 adlai: "the operation" is a story that needs to be written, it'll just take a few thousand words of regular blog crap before i'll be confident enough with my voice to let that one out

13:22:45 davout: kakobrekla: i never said anything re the 'conspiracy'

13:23:05 kakobrekla: davout it was just a general observation

13:23:48 davout: but it's pretty obvious to me that either a transaction has something to do with bitbet, or it doesn't, can't be "whichever suits me depending on the circumstances"

13:24:07 kakobrekla: adlai if you are thinking of the schism there is enough material here for a thick book

13:25:30 kakobrekla: davout technically this is not so

13:25:40 adlai: kakobrekla: close, but different corpus... i'm talking about corpus callostomi

13:26:31 *: adlai is an amateur neuroscientist, when he's not busy huffing tape paint off the ether rag

13:26:32 kakobrekla: adlai it seems to me there is no such thing present here or am i missing something

13:27:09 adlai: must be the spinal lsd acting up again. kg is quite a dose, would not recommend for the uninitiated

13:28:08 kakobrekla: do you see chinese konspiratorz?

13:28:40 *: adlai knowse nothing

13:28:57 kakobrekla: eh

13:29:18 kakobrekla: i didnt ask what you know, i asked what you see under the el es dee

13:30:06 *: adlai can http://youtube.com/watch?v=H4BBQMjbX3c

13:30:08 assbot: The Who- I can see for miles - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/20HD1YA )

13:31:35 kakobrekla: they dont seem to say what they see.

13:37:16 adlai: ah they say brilliant things! "I hope these dry before it gets cold", "If my fist clenches, crack it open", "When I smile, tell me some bad news"... true genii

13:39:41 kakobrekla: mkay

13:43:42 kakobrekla: should have said 'what you see', not 'what they see' really.

13:44:34 *: kakobrekla is just being curious how other brains perceive stuff

13:44:41 adlai: sometimes what i see is better said in #fraudsters, something about "like attracts like" and the nonbinarity of SNR

13:47:08 kakobrekla: yes, the like attracts like does seem to be working, fortunately

13:47:58 kakobrekla: https://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/vitaly/gone-in-six-characters-short-urls-considered-harmful-for-cloud-services/ lulzy

13:48:00 assbot: Gone In Six Characters: Short URLs Considered Harmful for Cloud Services ... ( http://bit.ly/1NcS228 )

14:01:01 *: adlai , reading that, wonders where he went wrong with his own infosec... probably the large number of pdfs consumed without proper djvufication beforehand

14:01:59 kakobrekla: im just lulzing at people figuring this out ~now

14:07:47 kakobrekla: davout> but it's pretty obvious to me that either a transaction has something to do with bitbet, or it doesn't, can't be "whichever suits me depending on the circumstances" < yes technically such prepocessing could be done for all addresses, especially if bbet would be pulling a scam. but apply this procedure where needed to avoid deliberate overpayment seems sensible (not only to me).

14:11:24 *: kakobrekla would love to see those double-receiver-bettors come here and complain about the 'missing' bitcoins

14:16:02 kakobrekla: "whichever suits me depending on the circumstances" < and you can take the 'me' out of this equation. when you break a right leg and visit a doctor, he will chose a leg to treat depending on the circumstance, say the right one. and to further remove 'me' out, i already stated i would rather see the funds go back to mp than to those bettors who remained silently satisfied when shit hit the fan.

14:40:20 adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=14-04-2016#1443987 << actually that's the first time adlai've seen that article

14:40:20 assbot: Logged on 14-04-2016 08:57:36; funkenstein_: stuff adlai knows already, file under slow progress of allopathy: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-04-lsd.html

15:15:02 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: having phun with the 'science' of folks expounding re 'allopathy' (!)

15:15:03 asciilifeform: ?

15:15:17 asciilifeform: (it is what homeopaths derisively call actual medicine)

15:15:55 adlai: asciilifeform: i actually recently explained to some people how the best homeopathy is to simply draw a picture of the molecule, and explain what it does

15:16:18 adlai: the brain, sufficiently attuned to graphite waves when struck across paper, will immediately placebo the chemical's effects

15:16:35 adlai: too bad people don't listen to reason. ever.

15:16:36 asciilifeform: adlai: believe or not, the medieval folks arrived at this. e.g., arsenic was considered potent against plague, but nontrivial to get, so folks would carry around srap of parchment with word 'arsenicum'

15:16:51 asciilifeform: *scrap

15:17:55 *: adlai checks what his scrap says: aripiprazole 5 10 15 30 TODAMOON

15:18:20 adlai: it's like anti-lsd, i guess.

15:18:22 asciilifeform: holy shit they gave him neuroleptic

15:18:32 *: asciilifeform would eat a bullet first

15:30:06 kakobrekla: asciilifeform myea, however the exercise seem to be as pointless as talking to a god damn bear.

15:31:01 adlai: there's a hebrew joke in there somewhere - "shenihie mirove velo mirophe" - works both ways, dependending on context

15:31:23 adlai: translates roughly as - "let us eat bullets down the gullet, not through the mullet"

15:34:03 funkenstein_: ama:actual medicine :: usd:actual money

15:34:17 funkenstein_: can be quite useful in a pinch

15:46:31 punkman: kakobrekla: im just lulzing at people figuring this out ~now << some peeps figured out long ago and even started saving what they can http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=URLTeam

15:46:36 assbot: URLTeam - Archiveteam ... ( http://bit.ly/1TVXOH2 )

15:49:21 kakobrekla: where are these short urls most often used, twitter?

15:50:05 punkman: everywhere

15:50:39 punkman: even nicer when they use more than one in a chain

15:51:19 punkman: oh wow 1,507,816,439 bit.ly urls in their dumps

16:10:53 *: kakobrekla just realized b-a uses them l0l

16:12:02 kakobrekla: they are a dying breed because issues with monetizing and racing to the bottom

16:12:38 kakobrekla: google can keep it up because data collection is worth something to them

16:12:51 kakobrekla: the rest - i dont see it

16:23:19 punkman: the ones that monetize are used for spam,warez and assorted derpery. gotta keep changing domains so you aren't blocked too.

16:24:03 punkman: (those that make you wait 5-10 seconds while some ad is displayed)

16:24:14 kakobrekla: bit.ly actually want you to pay if you use more than n of their shorts

16:24:28 punkman: bit.ly also does custom domains iirc

18:47:38 kakobrekla: davout, i dont know if you will be addressing my concerns or you already dismissed them as being depressing? in the latter case could you please elaborate on this; all payouts ever made by bb were established with solely implicit evidence (amount, address). what evidence do you have that the winners which will be getting deliberately overpaid were not already paid by bb? and before you say 'but it was a donation or someother thing from

18:47:38 kakobrekla: mp' i would be thrilled to see a statement signed to such effect by the owner of the outputs used in the second tx. be warned that if you manage to come up with this evidence i will hop on the next plane to paris, take you out to dinner and blow you for an hour, as this would be the ultimate moral victory for me, something to end a book with. and to note here, your view of 'has something to do with or doesnt' is overly simplistic for

18:47:39 kakobrekla: this complicated bb knot and is imho getting in the way of the option to do The Right Thing instead of the easy.