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Transcript for 15-11-2014, 1898 lines:

00:00:23 *: asciilifeform l0lz that folks are using 'phuctor' as a key viewer

00:00:39 Adlai: don't worry, i'm just phucting with you

00:00:42 asciilifeform: i guess there's something pleasurable in seeing the moduli

00:00:48 asciilifeform: i know i like to.

00:02:07 Adlai: https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=Adlai << /nick accidentally got squatted by ashley while i was in the army. never heard of waksman though.

00:02:08 assbot: Search results for 'adlai'

00:06:01 Adlai: https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=Adlai << so, while the current contributors' reasons for not using git[hub] are understandable, i'll leave this up and perhaps update it at my leisure, in case it'll be useful to anybody inhabiting a separate region on the paranoia/lazyness continuum

00:06:01 assbot: Search results for 'adlai'

00:06:08 Adlai: pastefail: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-11-2014#919932

00:06:08 assbot: Logged on 13-11-2014 16:38:23; asciilifeform: Adlai: darcs << as a military man, perhaps you are familiar with systems that could be automated easily, but aren't? e.g., ru nuke sub controls

00:07:00 cazalla: http://qntra.net/2014/11/cfpbs-proposed-rules-governing-prepaid-cards-include-virtual-currency/

00:07:02 assbot: CFPB's Proposed Rules Governing Prepaid Cards Include "Virtual Currency" | Qntra.net

00:07:02 asciilifeform: Adlai: on the contrary, several people (even you?) are using 'git'

00:07:10 asciilifeform: it even, iirc, comes with a gpg signing gizmo

00:07:33 Adlai: people other than me have used it?

00:07:39 asciilifeform: but it is only a tool that some people prefer to use. a 'git' or other similar gizmo will not be the authoritative representation of bitcoind.

00:07:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30500 @ 0.00042506 = 12.9643 BTC [-]

00:07:44 asciilifeform: for reasons described earlier.

00:07:46 Adlai: (specifically for this repo)

00:07:53 asciilifeform: aha i think ben_vulpes has one of his own

00:08:19 Adlai: i only set up the repo. doing so required going through all the manual steps (and i did verify gpg signatures with identities fetched from public keyservers)

00:08:31 asciilifeform: try to understand why a git repo cannot be the canonical representation.

00:08:46 Adlai: of course i understand, although i still think darcs could actually work for this

00:08:59 asciilifeform: (the canonical representation can be taken and stuffed into a git repo, or darcs, or cvs, whatever, for your personal pleasure)

00:09:01 Adlai: (after reading more about its workings)

00:09:29 asciilifeform: but when it's time to cough your changes back up and have them up for public study, they have to be physically minimal

00:09:35 Adlai: let's put it this way: the act of fetching signed patches with darcs conducts *exactly* the manual verification workflow which you currently do

00:09:37 asciilifeform: and per the current state of the art, that means unix diff outputs.

00:09:45 undata: Adlai: this was my argument.

00:09:52 Adlai: !s undata darcs

00:09:52 assbot: 0 results for 'undata darcs' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=undata+darcs

00:09:54 undata: git and others are a damned hash database

00:09:56 Adlai: ... no it wasn't

00:10:05 Adlai: yes, and they're not looking for a hash database

00:10:08 undata: Adlai: it turns out there are a few of those

00:10:09 asciilifeform: Adlai: in what way is 'darcs' output more useful than unix patch?

00:10:12 Adlai: they're looking for verified patch lists

00:10:32 asciilifeform: Adlai: does it, for example, avoid being fooled by line number counts?

00:10:32 Adlai: asciilifeform: you can add metadata such as patch dependency which is not evident just from the patch's raw contents

00:10:36 undata: Adlai: as you were then; git solves precisely this problem or would not work.

00:11:28 Adlai: git commits to a specific state of code. what if it becomes evident that a specific developer was working to introduce bugs, and you only want to excise his patches? that has unbounded painfulness in git, but bounded painfulness in darcs.

00:11:47 asciilifeform: incidentally, the problem of 'patcher than is never fooled by deletions and line count shifts' is not solvable in the general case.

00:11:53 Adlai: same bounds hold, or don't, for "his patches, and all those dependent upon them"

00:12:09 asciilifeform: (if you have a solution, geneticists would love to hear about it. 'sequence alignment' is ruinously expensive, in computational terms.)

00:12:13 Adlai: which is why darcs lets you add manual metadata for dependency constraints

00:12:47 Adlai: a "conflict" would require a separate patch, which should be signed by the resolver

00:12:47 asciilifeform: Adlai: we have the metadata. the integer in the patch fileames.

00:12:51 asciilifeform: *filename

00:13:45 asciilifeform: try to understand the nature of this 'nuke sub' and the pitfalls of tying one's fortune to 'darcs' or a similarly 'intelligent' instrument.

00:14:42 undata: asciilifeform: the process of producing a git commit is entirely dumb

00:14:45 Adlai: darcs isn't that intelligent. the input data it gets from a repository is a partially ordered list of patches, possibly signed. this is slightly more general than an ordered list of patches, but just as secure and interactive/manual

00:14:53 undata: and your nuke sub is going to get harder and harder to work on as the number of patches grows

00:15:06 asciilifeform: undata: i want it to get harder.

00:15:23 asciilifeform: undata, Adlai: are you familiar with 'risk homeostasis' ?

00:15:31 Adlai: !s risk homeostasis

00:15:31 assbot: 1 results for 'risk homeostasis' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=risk+homeostasis

00:15:39 Adlai: apparently logs aren't either!

00:16:06 Adlai: at least, not to a great degree... but i get the idea

00:16:09 asciilifeform: incidentally, esr had a piece on it.

00:16:11 asciilifeform: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6271

00:16:13 assbot: Program Provability and the Rule of Technical Greed

00:17:16 undata: asciilifeform: the process you've demanded be manual is not nearly a hard enough hurdle to filter undesirables

00:17:24 asciilifeform: this business, where things have to keep 'growing' for no apparent reason at all, needs to go.

00:17:26 undata: it's just a pain in the ass

00:17:49 asciilifeform: the point here is not to filter undesirable -people-

00:17:51 asciilifeform: but -things-.

00:17:56 asciilifeform: as in, cruft.

00:18:21 asciilifeform: look at extant software and you will see what happens to engineering when moving parts stop having weight and cost.

00:18:23 asciilifeform: it gets cancer.

00:18:53 asciilifeform: and since it never quite succumbs to the cancer, the tumours become planetary-sized.

00:19:00 asciilifeform: dwarfing the actual healthy tissue.

00:19:13 asciilifeform: how much of what is on your computer right now, actually -does- something ?

00:19:18 undata: I'll argue that git is doing precisely what you're doing by hand.

00:19:25 Adlai: i'm going to stop talking before i sound like a broken record, but this topic is likely to come up again once i've got something more substantial to say in defense of some tool for easing (ie, partially automating, up to the point of confirming signature verification) this process... no guarantee on how soon that could be, or which tool.

00:19:32 Adlai: darcs seems the likeliest candidate right now, though

00:19:35 undata: you're not removing complexity; you're just making the same process slower

00:19:44 asciilifeform: undata: well, to the extent that any version control system can be cudgelled into coughing up output compatible with 'patch' - then yes.

00:19:53 asciilifeform: but it is that output, and only that, which i am willing to sign.

00:20:02 undata: asciilifeform: there is not one single canonical timeline in any project

00:20:04 asciilifeform: others can disagree, and sign the empire state building.

00:20:30 asciilifeform: let's put it another way. i will not sign anything that i cannot read.

00:20:49 asciilifeform: it's bad enough that we are dealing with a turd that is quite impossible to fully understand in the original.

00:21:05 asciilifeform: but i will only sign deltas which consist of information which i can fully view.

00:21:26 undata: to me you're saying damn the microscope or we'll never understand this cell

00:21:46 asciilifeform: undata: you are perfectly welcome to use a vcs of whatever flavour appeals to you

00:21:59 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, the one fellow who is really still working on this gizmo, is

00:22:40 undata: I'd like to slash out the db bits and try something else, but I'm not going to bother with trying to manually merge other people's patches as they come along in process

00:22:50 undata: that is precisely the scenario git helps

00:22:52 mod6: im not using one

00:22:59 *: asciilifeform isn't either

00:23:33 asciilifeform: undata: if you want to understand the whole point of the fork, try to understand what you lose when you choose a vcs as a canonical representation.

00:23:47 asciilifeform: or, alternatively, create own fork, with own point...

00:24:22 asciilifeform: but don't be surprised if it is treated in the same way as the phoundation's original - at the very best, a place to steal bug fixes from.

00:27:41 asciilifeform: undata: do you know how soviet nukes and spacecraft were assembled?

00:27:45 Adlai: wouldn't a better forking point be before any significant "crowd" involvement? cf https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors?from=2010-07-11&to=2011-04-27&type=c

00:27:45 assbot: Contributors to bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub

00:27:45 asciilifeform: there was a three-man system

00:28:12 asciilifeform: one would read instructions. another, turn a wrench, whatever. third would check that 2 corresponds to 1. then, all three sign under that step in recipe.

00:28:17 asciilifeform: all three - answer with their lives.

00:28:30 asciilifeform: this is how safety-critical systems work.

00:28:47 asciilifeform: and whiners who complain that this is arduous, unreasonable, etc. - are shown where the door is.

00:28:52 *: Adlai is not sufficiently familiar with each line of code itself to tell which of those contributions, or ones in the ensuing spikes, are trivially trustable, and which aren't

00:29:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49173 @ 0.00042192 = 20.7471 BTC [-] {2}

00:29:05 undata: asciilifeform: it is absurd to think that software cannot help enforce that rigor

00:29:25 undata: or why did we make it at all?

00:29:30 undata: any software

00:29:43 asciilifeform: software is helping to the extent it is reasonable. for instance, i am trusting my text editor to display the actual source and not some diddled version.

00:29:56 undata: asciilifeform: it's more likely that your text editor diddled than git did

00:30:06 undata: your text editor isn't checking against known hashes

00:30:17 asciilifeform: idea is not 'which was diddled' but which one encourages reliance on greater and greater machine 'intelligence'

00:30:20 Adlai: undata: this is more along the lines of "confirm by human approval that an unforseen software/bureaucracy/insanity 'bug' isn't afoot"

00:30:25 asciilifeform: it is very easy to test if my text editor is lying.

00:30:39 asciilifeform: (less easy to test if it is -capable- of lying, but that's another matter)

00:31:06 asciilifeform: but the argument here is not about sabotaged ken-thompson-style tools. but about tools that foster intellectual atrophy.

00:31:37 asciilifeform: and a dependence on the machine to resolve questions which ought to be resolved by the mind, and thus kept 'light weight' enough to be easily resolved by the mind.

00:32:51 undata: being able to apply 700 patches by hand, having verified signatures on each one, is no measure of intelligence

00:32:59 asciilifeform: no.

00:33:04 undata: it confirms you're a ploddingly simple mechanical device

00:33:10 asciilifeform: it's a chore, yes

00:33:19 asciilifeform: can't really argue that it's a great joy.

00:33:31 asciilifeform: and whatever aspects of it can be automated - should be

00:33:44 Adlai: according to github, v0.5.3 has 36 committers with github accounts (for example, doesn't include satoshi). compare this with starting on Apr 1, 2011: 8

00:34:02 asciilifeform: but i will not be signing any patch that i can't apply with my mind, in my mental model of the code.

00:34:02 undata: Adlai: there is a mountain of bugfixing to re-apply

00:34:12 asciilifeform: and requires some complicated pattern-matcher to apply

00:34:21 undata: asciilifeform: at some point wont you have to delegate that?

00:34:28 undata: torvalds addresses this regarding the kernel and git

00:34:41 undata: he uses WoT to manage what makes it into the kernel

00:34:41 asciilifeform: lol re: linux kernel as an example to follow

00:35:35 Adlai: of course, but the "manual trust verification" approach taken further would suggest only applying critical bugfixes, as patches, signed by the developer who wrote them (preferably with a signature published at the time of the fix, alternatively obtaining a signature in the present day... or manually verifying the patch's trustworthyness, and signing yourself)

00:36:04 undata: Adlai: so I sign the hash of the commit with my gpg key

00:36:12 asciilifeform: Adlai: there are two separate questions here, and we are only dealing with one

00:36:17 asciilifeform: that being - attribution.

00:36:29 asciilifeform: the most important thing is that each and every change, however slight, is attributable.

00:36:34 asciilifeform: now, and 100 years from now.

00:36:45 asciilifeform: 'trustworthiness' can only be born from this.

00:36:51 asciilifeform: right now it is a null word.

00:36:58 Adlai: and how does what I just said miss that?

00:37:07 undata: asciilifeform: so are you going to trace that line of code by hand through 1500 patches?

00:37:13 asciilifeform: well, you referred to 'trustworthiness' which is a thing we have not yet invented.

00:37:14 undata: and is that more reliable than git blame?

00:37:24 undata: now I'm supposed to trust your infallible eye

00:37:27 asciilifeform: undata: picture the 0.5.3 turd as a piece of martian technology.

00:37:34 asciilifeform: let's pretend that it just happened to fall upon the earth.

00:37:48 Adlai: s/trust/origin/, s/manually verifying/claiming responsibility for/

00:37:50 undata: ha, yes.

00:37:58 asciilifeform: we have no idea, let's say, what parts are useful, and which ones are boobytraps designed to kill unwary earthling dissector.

00:38:15 asciilifeform: but we do know that among us are hostile martians, who would like us to come to harm.

00:38:28 asciilifeform: we want to know, even if it is fifty years too late, who they were.

00:38:34 asciilifeform: and the only way to learn it, is by their works.

00:38:37 undata: I might not try and use the thing at all.

00:38:42 asciilifeform: that's an option.

00:38:44 undata: I'd observe it then try a clean re-implementation

00:38:45 asciilifeform: i hear it's popular.

00:38:52 asciilifeform: aha but how to observe?

00:38:59 asciilifeform: and then how to convince others you are not a martian ?

00:39:09 asciilifeform: two separate problems.

00:39:26 asciilifeform: conformal corp.'s reimplementation exists, for instance.

00:39:29 asciilifeform: and 2 or 3 others.

00:39:33 asciilifeform: why aren't we using them?

00:39:38 Adlai: well, you can't convince another person you're not a martian. hell, i don't think i could convince myself that i'm not unwittingly carrying out martian bidding.

00:39:39 asciilifeform: (well - at least, i'm not)

00:39:39 ben_vulpes: inertia

00:39:44 ben_vulpes: fear

00:39:47 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: no.

00:40:01 asciilifeform: i won't use, because i was not privvy to the process whereby it was born.

00:40:11 asciilifeform: nor have any reason to place trust in the creators

00:40:19 Adlai: but you can ease recovery from covert evil martian sabotage

00:40:33 asciilifeform: what recovery can there be, when your $maxint coins walk away?

00:40:49 asciilifeform: gotta understand why bitcoind < 0.6 is special.

00:40:52 ben_vulpes: why so much more confident in the satoshi turd than the conformal blackbox?

00:41:00 asciilifeform: because it is the only one which existed upon the earth before bitcoin was valuable!

00:41:05 asciilifeform: i thought this was elementarily obvious.

00:41:23 undata: but this can be taken to the absurd

00:41:24 ben_vulpes: best argument i've heard.

00:41:27 undata: satoshi = nsa

00:41:30 undata: it has always been broken

00:41:48 asciilifeform: undata: this comes up here at least once a month, and i regret to say that it is mostly my own fault.

00:41:51 Adlai: surely these purely hypothetical martians already had their eyes on it before "bitcoin was valuable"

00:42:00 undata: asciilifeform: I don't believe or disbelieve it

00:42:14 undata: one can always suppose a reason why tonight's the night they come to get him

00:42:16 asciilifeform: Adlai: there are at least six different hypotheses for why dr. evil has not yet pulled the trigger.

00:42:21 asciilifeform: one of them is that there was no dr. evil

00:42:26 asciilifeform: but there are at least five others.

00:42:34 asciilifeform: i think each of the regulars here has his favourite.

00:42:40 Adlai: at least one tla took an active interest back in 2011...

00:43:07 Adlai: and please elaborate on the hypotheses

00:43:16 Adlai: (or just point out log links/searches)

00:43:25 TheNewDeal: second that statement

00:43:46 TheNewDeal: the only one I can think of is, wait until it gets 10, or 100 times bigger

00:43:49 asciilifeform: !s nsa bitcoin

00:43:50 assbot: 27 results for 'nsa bitcoin' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=nsa+bitcoin

00:44:07 undata: why would they create it? impending fiat disaster?

00:44:16 TheNewDeal: not interested about the nsa connection now, but the "why hasn't he pulled the plug?" question

00:44:47 undata: TheNewDeal: supposing "he" is usgov; why wouldn't they just sit back and let it take over, and hold their 1/21 or more of it?

00:44:59 undata: and continue to be the thing they've been

00:45:22 Adlai: TheNewDeal: e no antecedent, in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014922735

00:45:23 assbot: #bitcoin-assets log

00:45:25 TheNewDeal: that's obvious to me why it doesnt matter if he is nsa

00:45:26 undata: I don't see a reason to pull any plugs

00:45:31 asciilifeform: undata: are you familiar with a figure called anatoly golitsyn?

00:45:34 joecool: !isitdup wiki.bitcoin-assets.com

00:45:36 undata: asciilifeform: I am not

00:45:41 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-12-2013#421984

00:45:41 assbot: Logged on 15-12-2013 00:57:19; asciilifeform: anyone knows the story of a man called Anatoliy Golitsyn?

00:45:47 Adlai: fixfail: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#922735

00:45:47 assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 00:43:25; TheNewDeal: second that statement

00:45:51 joecool: kakobrekla: wiki is down?

00:46:05 undata: here's a doubling down of it: NSA intends to take over the hashing power of the network and implement coin validation

00:46:08 undata: ushering in a dark age

00:46:10 undata: haha

00:46:51 joecool: yep, everything on bitcoin-assets.com down for me

00:47:07 undata: asciilifeform: yes that

00:47:44 Adlai: ;;isup search.bitcoin-assets.com

00:47:45 gribble: search.bitcoin-assets.com is up

00:47:52 undata: bitcoin could easily be one of the most dystopian inventions ever

00:47:58 undata: depending on who has the hashing power and what they intend

00:48:10 asciilifeform: http://pastebin.com/LEKE04PY << for those who can't reach the log

00:48:11 assbot: 00:57:19asciilifeform:anyone knows the story of a man called Anatoliy Golitsyn? - Pastebin.com

00:49:31 undata: asciilifeform: this brings me back to my comments about the pile of weapons

00:49:42 *: Adlai likes how the pastebin gets dated by the newsfart mention

00:49:53 joecool: !isup log.bitcoin-assets.com

00:50:05 Adlai: joecool: try ;;

00:50:08 joecool: Adlai: search works here

00:50:12 joecool: ;;isup log.bitcoin-assets.com

00:50:13 gribble: log.bitcoin-assets.com is up

00:50:16 undata: the pentagon is the actual US govt

00:50:24 asciilifeform: !s meta-nsa

00:50:25 assbot: 30 results for 'meta-nsa' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=meta-nsa

00:50:25 undata: this civilian bureaucracy is a skirt

00:50:51 asciilifeform: ^ required reading for 'shadow government' aficionados

00:50:54 joecool: Adlai: used to ! on the otc channel, bad habit

00:51:02 asciilifeform: !s lizard-hitler

00:51:02 assbot: 5 results for 'lizard-hitler' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=lizard-hitler

00:52:24 Adlai: the lizard-hitler popular with my conspiracy friends has dabbled in history from a much earlier age

00:53:06 asciilifeform: e.g., http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-12-2013#416393

00:53:06 assbot: Logged on 11-12-2013 00:40:16; asciilifeform: i can't help but imagine some fellow at Meta-NSA, with a pill against ECDSA hidden under a flower pot in his office, laughing his arse off at these morons.

00:53:10 Adlai: he/they are responsible for crossing mammal and reptilian "genes" (phenotypes? genotypes? details, damnit! details!)

00:53:55 Adlai: Homo sapiens [sapiens] being essentially some form of automaton / robot slave / controlled experiment, conducted by these lizard-nazis

00:54:01 asciilifeform: for those who slept,

00:54:02 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922393

00:54:02 assbot: Logged on 14-11-2014 22:24:42; asciilifeform: (for n00bs only: who is 'lizard hitler' ? a character approximately as real as magnetic field lines were to michael faraday. don't look for magnetic field lines, they aren't there. physically. or as far as we can tell, anyway.)

00:54:25 Adlai: "slept"? more like "don't speak http"

00:54:47 Adlai: which is quite an illiteracy, these days

00:55:16 assbot: Last 12 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3A8FTX8.txt )

00:55:16 Adlai: !b 12

00:56:01 Adlai: ignorance is bliss, eh assbot?

00:56:46 Adlai: assbot is immune to suicidal depression, because it doesn't even know it exists

01:00:28 nubbins`: ;;seen asciilifeform

01:00:28 gribble: asciilifeform was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 minutes and 25 seconds ago: <asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-11-2014#922393

01:00:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66300 @ 0.0004115 = 27.2825 BTC [-] {2}

01:00:47 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i'm right here.

01:00:52 Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-04-2014#610903 << does security-over-obscurity preclude discussing further your uses of obsd?

01:00:52 assbot: Logged on 09-04-2014 09:10:25; mircea_popescu: tbh im kinda surprised teh tradepress isn't howling all about "in january, 'Bitcoin Baron Keeps a Secretive Open Source OS Alive' ; in april, nsa's crown jool is thrown in the dirt of the public space."

01:00:52 nubbins`: hi

01:00:52 asciilifeform: at least for a few min.

01:00:56 nubbins`: - if the project is deemed infeasible, 0.5 BTC (less tx fees) will be returned to a Bitcoin address specified by asciilifeform, no later than 2014-11-15.

01:01:06 asciilifeform: ah

01:01:16 nubbins`: loose ends and the tying up thereof!

01:01:17 asciilifeform: send it where it came from.

01:01:19 nubbins`: k

01:01:24 *: Adlai is curious what is considered a secure stack for financial sites, eg mpex

01:01:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36427 @ 0.00041773 = 15.2167 BTC [+]

01:01:39 nubbins`: i still want to print this if/when the time comes that the chicken is whittled down to edible meat and bone

01:01:48 asciilifeform: nubbins`: and i shall buy it.

01:02:02 Adlai: nubbins`: why aren't you printing it?

01:02:32 asciilifeform: Adlai: see jurov's chronicle: http://explo.yt/post/2014/10/29/some-dangerous-idea

01:02:33 assbot: A dangerous idea - serialized delusions

01:02:37 asciilifeform: (re: why not printed)

01:02:58 nubbins`: tl;dr you don't bronze turds

01:03:15 asciilifeform: except! in the case of the 1990s alt.tasteless 'golden turd award.'

01:03:18 asciilifeform: where - they did.

01:04:41 nubbins`: heh

01:05:33 nubbins`: https://blockchain.info/tx/233caa80975f203b65927c705e5fa2876354ab6ddb8c4f684ca76ebeab44ab71

01:05:35 assbot: Bitcoin Transaction 233caa80975f203b65927c705e5fa2876354ab6ddb8c4f684ca76ebeab44ab71

01:05:36 asciilifeform: Adlai: what is considered a secure stack for financial << this is like asking, 'what is considered a good wife'

01:05:59 Adlai: and indeed, isn't it acceptable, in some circles at least, to look at family photos?

01:07:06 asciilifeform: 'A Roman divorced from his wife, being highly blamed by his friends, who demanded, "Was she not chaste? Was she not fair? Was she not fruitful?" holding out his shoe, asked them whether it was not new and well made. "Yet," added he, "none of you can tell where it pinches me."'

01:07:13 asciilifeform: (plutarch, iirc)

01:07:48 joecool: hm reading about the assets project to roll back to 0.5.3, i see "rip out bdb" ? drop wallet support so it only functions as node?

01:08:15 asciilifeform: joecool: rolling back was just step 1 in recipe.

01:08:17 Adlai: this roman doesn't seem to care much for his friends' feet. perhaps the shoe's pinch points would bother them too, if they were to walk long enough in the same shoes?

01:09:09 nubbins`: notary http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eJhsu4D5

01:09:14 nubbins`: what is it again

01:09:21 nubbins`: !s notary

01:09:22 assbot: 26 results for 'notary' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=notary

01:09:45 nubbins`: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eJhsu4D5

01:09:45 notary: nubbins`: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.

01:10:26 ben_vulpes: joecool: what's a wallet?

01:10:47 joecool: ben_vulpes: wallet.db support

01:11:05 ben_vulpes: is management of a single address not enough for you?

01:11:20 nubbins`: :D

01:12:05 asciilifeform: joecool: i don't believe that the current participants in turdatron really agree on what the ultimate end product should be (e.g., something like what conformal has, or a hardware implementation - what i want, etc.) but we do agree that a reference implementation is necessary before it even makes sense to ask the question.

01:12:12 asciilifeform: at the moment - we don't have a reference.

01:12:35 asciilifeform: nubbins`: thank you

01:12:46 nubbins`: np, may our day in the sun come

01:13:32 nubbins`: !up dooglus

01:13:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7723 @ 0.00042926 = 3.3152 BTC [+]

01:14:49 nubbins`: incidentally, you'll get a chance to check out pictures of my large-format binding work later this month

01:17:12 joecool: asciilifeform: i see, what exactly has been happening? were people expecting gavin to crap out a reference eventually or just keep adding BIP's and pile on the crap?

01:20:30 nubbins`: i think "people" were expecting what people always have/will

01:20:40 nubbins`: everything, now, goddammit

01:20:55 joecool: nubbins`: someone else will get around to it

01:20:58 nubbins`: saying shit like "we"

01:21:00 nubbins`: "we need"

01:21:27 ben_vulpes: "the people" want everything they're told they want and to pay for nothing.

01:21:42 ben_vulpes: kinda why the open source ownership of satoshi's codebase failed so dramatically.

01:22:28 nubbins`: dat lack of bare-bones implementation, etc

01:24:23 ben_vulpes: the preference of "the community" for something that sorta-works across a broad spectrum of use cases

01:24:30 ben_vulpes: (albeit poorly at any of them individually)

01:24:31 joecool: so there's a todo, is there a repo you guys are using or a a mailing list for patches?

01:24:37 ben_vulpes: ml for patches

01:24:50 ben_vulpes: lol don't really know if it even works yet

01:25:01 undata: joecool: repo?! scoff!

01:25:12 thestringpuller: "There are no infinite loops in Ethereum because cycles cost currency and there is a finite amount of currency."

01:25:22 joecool: undata: cvs works for me

01:25:23 ben_vulpes: but if you're going to hack on it, start with the 0.5.3 dist at f9beb4d9.org, apply asciilifeform's "chicken" patch, and then yours on top of that.

01:25:59 joecool: ben_vulpes: thanks

01:26:06 thestringpuller: has anyone been able to load blockchain yet without exploding?

01:26:25 ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: i'm still inching my blockchain to wedging

01:26:36 ben_vulpes: i'm working to crap out a "blockchain" that i can use to test this wedge

01:26:40 ben_vulpes: er

01:26:52 ben_vulpes: that i can use to track down potentially unwedging commits i should say.

01:32:47 joecool: ben_vulpes: will it reindex a pulled in blockchain or is it a necessity to pull in from start to finish?

01:39:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26400 @ 0.0004105 = 10.8372 BTC [-]

01:39:29 *: Adlai envisions a method of automatically sussing out the wedge point, but it requires the use of automation tools...

01:40:54 Adlai: specifically, http://man.cx/git-bisect

01:40:55 assbot: Manpage for git-bisect - man.cx manual pages

01:41:47 thestringpuller: joecool: after certain block it goes bananas

01:42:14 joecool: always same block?

01:42:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12295 @ 0.0004105 = 5.0471 BTC [-]

01:42:23 thestringpuller: dunno haven't tried again

01:55:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22828 @ 0.00041956 = 9.5777 BTC [+]

01:57:22 ben_vulpes: Adlai: git bisect is actually the plan

01:57:38 ben_vulpes: my plan, more accurately.

01:58:52 ben_vulpes: joecool: "reindexing" is something that gavin's fork does to find all of the transactions relevant to addresses in your wallet in a given blockchain.

01:59:00 ben_vulpes: required for "importprivkey" etc

01:59:32 ben_vulpes: reverifying the blockchain is something else entirely.

01:59:35 joecool: so 0.5.3 and earlier did not do such things?

02:00:23 Adlai: the only plan right now is http://music.tatranmusic.com/

02:00:27 assbot: TATRAN

02:01:46 ben_vulpes: 0.5.3 and earlier have wallets, and all the concomittant braindamage like "reindex"

02:02:10 ben_vulpes: 0.5.3 is just a not unreasonable starting point for the project.

02:03:06 ben_vulpes: the story behind its selection is pretty amusing and may need to be revisited.

02:04:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: how much of what is on your computer right now, actually -does- something ? << i guess about half.

02:04:18 mircea_popescu: and that is probably rare.

02:05:21 ben_vulpes: Adlai: additionally, i'm scripting the approach to the wedge point so that i can reproduce both the wedge and it not happening trivially with git bisect and other scripts

02:06:00 mircea_popescu: basically there'

02:06:07 mircea_popescu: s a conflict between enthusiasm and experience here.

02:06:15 mircea_popescu: enthusiasm is a sin.

02:06:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54873 @ 0.00042886 = 23.5328 BTC [+] {3}

02:06:39 Adlai: ben_vulpes: please share your bisection script

02:07:02 ben_vulpes: Adlai: just in skeleton form atm

02:07:18 ben_vulpes: i don't have a blockchain that wedges yet, nor have i reproduced the wedging point

02:07:26 *: Adlai is in no hurry

02:07:56 ben_vulpes: stuff i've written so far: http://pastebin.com/Zf4T9xF7

02:07:57 assbot: [Bash] #!/bin/bash TEST_DATA_DIR=aplace WEDGE_BLOCK=999999 clean_data_dir() { - Pastebin.com

02:08:52 ben_vulpes: this abomination is what's edging my copy of 0.5.3 up to the wedge point: http://pastebin.com/itWYUk9f

02:08:53 assbot: [Bash] #! /bin/bash # assumes that bitcoind is running blockmax=$1 should_continue - Pastebin.com

02:10:05 ben_vulpes: hardly groundbreaking. just tiptoeing around, because...enthusiasm kills the sapper.

02:10:39 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes why the sleep ?

02:10:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67550 @ 0.0004334 = 29.2762 BTC [+] {2}

02:10:57 ben_vulpes: no desire to tax the poor leaky boat

02:11:16 mircea_popescu: should be interestinf to see if sleep actually resolves [part of] memory leakage

02:11:20 mircea_popescu: -> race condition.

02:12:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: undata: this comes up here at least once a month, and i regret to say that it is mostly my own fault. <<< that it has a good response is mostly your fault. that it appears... it'd have appeared anyway.

02:13:10 mircea_popescu: now if i only had a link to where it was put to rest, to pass along to undata

02:13:18 ben_vulpes: currach is the word i was looking for

02:14:06 mircea_popescu: carrack ?

02:14:40 ben_vulpes: leather over wood prehistoric thinger?

02:15:01 ben_vulpes: coracle perhaps even

02:15:03 mircea_popescu: oh, no. this is the boat that mapped the world.

02:15:23 ben_vulpes: well its a crappy coracle dammit

02:15:39 ben_vulpes: bitcoin is the coin that changed the world but that doesn't mean the first try doesn't sink in heavy storms

02:16:32 mircea_popescu: http://www.stephenbiesty.co.uk/galleries_Atmospheric_Cutaways_Magellan'sCarrack.html

02:16:33 assbot: Stephen Biesty - Illustrator - Atmospheric Cutaways - Megallan's Carrack

02:17:55 asciilifeform: !s koraktor

02:17:56 assbot: 11 results for 'koraktor' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=koraktor

02:18:20 asciilifeform: or maybe not.

02:18:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2617 @ 0.0004249 = 1.112 BTC [-]

02:19:48 undata: mircea_popescu: regarding the NSA conspiracy, it's amusing, but doesn't seem likely that they'd undermine fiat intentionaly

02:19:49 undata: *lly

02:20:12 asciilifeform: does cia cocaine boat intend to undermine 'war on drugs' ?

02:20:27 asciilifeform: why does 'intend' even matter?

02:21:27 undata: asciilifeform: because unintentionally they're undermining their own existence by existing in the first place

02:22:20 nubbins`: anyone else find it mildly interesting that the last 5 chars in deed ID of jurov's signed treasurer's contract are "urovj"?

02:22:27 asciilifeform: me.

02:22:34 nubbins`: :D

02:22:41 nubbins`: i stared at it for like 10 minutes

02:24:58 asciilifeform: in other news, http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/14/boeing

02:24:59 assbot: Lenta.ru: Силовые структуры: «Первый канал» показал спутниковые снимки атаки истребителем гражданского самолета

02:25:04 asciilifeform: i don't feel like translating.

02:25:09 asciilifeform: either 'google' or mircea_popescu

02:25:43 asciilifeform: tldr - ru satellite footage of death of mh-17

02:26:05 *: asciilifeform wasn't there, didn't watch, cannot swear to it

02:26:52 nubbins`: :0

02:27:12 asciilifeform: let out in response to australian 'je'accuse'

02:28:02 Adlai: all this horseradish for just a file conversion!? http://www.zamzar.com/tos.php

02:28:03 assbot: Zamzar - Free online file conversion

02:29:35 asciilifeform: lol, american/uk sat.

02:29:44 undata: asciilifeform: the strange thing to me: it doesn't matter at all what actually happened

02:29:49 Adlai: it's considerably shorter than the usual legalese, but just for starters, they could have separate terms for all the paid cruft, and leave the free service simple

02:29:59 undata: these events serve as fine propaganda tools no matter what for both sides

02:30:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34450 @ 0.00042727 = 14.7195 BTC [+] {2}

02:30:18 asciilifeform: undata: except when usg can be caught with pants down.

02:30:29 asciilifeform: and anally tickled until bursts.

02:30:34 undata: asciilifeform: the usgov can tag its own pentagon with a missile in broad daylight

02:31:00 asciilifeform: and let's say you caught it on film.

02:31:08 asciilifeform: yes, 'can have problems,' film will be denied, etc.

02:31:12 asciilifeform: but still improvement.

02:32:55 undata: seems like the US and Russia are gradually building support for a very large war

02:33:27 mats_cd03: ha.

02:33:56 undata: meanwhile, related: they're starting to bang the Iraq war drum here, again

02:34:03 undata: only this time Syria must go as well

02:35:25 thestringpuller: https://github.com/cwinklevoss

02:35:57 asciilifeform: i can make one for hitler, what of it

02:36:31 thestringpuller: silly winklevii don't code

02:37:07 undata: if I were russia, I'd wait for the US to go balls deep into the middle east again, and then I'd grab some of the north pole's oil, and whatever I wanted in eastern ukraine, at least

02:38:02 undata: and I'd most certainly try to help stir up whatever particular brand of shit the americans can't resist in the middle east

02:38:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5598 @ 0.00043346 = 2.4265 BTC [+]

02:40:00 mircea_popescu: <nubbins`> anyone else find it mildly interesting that the last 5 chars in deed ID of jurov's signed treasurer's contract are "urovj"? << it's in the logs.

02:41:52 mircea_popescu: <undata> if I were russia, I'd wait for the US to go balls deep into the middle east again, and then I'd grab some of the north pole's oil, <<< obviously, you're not russia.

02:42:08 mircea_popescu: it needs more oil under a sheet of ice like kim kardashian needs more pubic hair.

02:43:30 PeterL: doesn't russia pretty much have as much oil as they want right now anyway? why do they need an excuse to grab more?

02:44:47 mircea_popescu: yup.

02:44:49 Adlai: any theories on reasons for the temporal hint of correlation between btcfiat and s.mpoe?

02:45:09 mircea_popescu: i was waiting for mike_c's words of wisdom

02:45:10 ben_vulpes: !t l s.mpoe

02:45:10 assbot: It says some pelt-wearin' trapper, some stinkin' bean-suckin' possum skinner, he's gonna collect that reward money.

02:45:16 ben_vulpes: !l s.mpoe

02:45:16 assbot: The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow.

02:45:20 ben_vulpes: !l mpex s.mpoe

02:45:20 assbot: Last trade for S.MPOE on MPEX was at 0.00043346 BTC [+]

02:45:21 mircea_popescu: !t m s.mpoe

02:45:23 assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.0004105 / 0.0004339 / 0.00046194 (2681850 shares, 1,163.66 BTC), 7D: 0.00036402 / 0.00053599 / 0.00065245 (7576604 shares, 4,061.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00036402 / 0.00067967 / 0.00081111 (23975563 shares, 16,295.66 BTC)

02:45:24 undata: mircea_popescu: still, controlling supply means having an influence on price

02:45:39 mike_c: i don't have any words of wisdom on mpoe.

02:45:41 mircea_popescu: undata you don't understand. siberia is a huge space, full of minerals they can't access because ice.

02:45:57 mike_c: feels cheap though.

02:46:03 ben_vulpes: wasn't the last major mpoe action a big rally during the big btc rally?

02:46:05 ben_vulpes: ;;ticker

02:46:06 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 391.71, Best ask: 391.72, Bid-ask spread: 0.01000, Last trade: 391.65, 24 hour volume: 20570.65837348, 24 hour low: 382.95, 24 hour high: 415.0, 24 hour vwap: 396.974151246

02:46:09 PeterL: and no way to transport out, no oil pipes

02:46:24 ben_vulpes: there is this sneaky theory that btc price is driven by mpoe holders

02:46:25 Adlai: well look who's been asleep now :P

02:46:40 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes pretty much yea

02:46:51 Adlai: so, why would they need to dump mpoe to boost btc?

02:47:08 Adlai: doesn't mpoe operate "within" bitcoin?

02:47:12 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu will bang on about that at will

02:47:36 *: ben_vulpes shrugs

02:47:39 ben_vulpes: many legs to the trade

02:48:13 ben_vulpes: could just be momentum and a long dry spell on mpex

02:48:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: except! in the case of the 1990s alt.tasteless 'golden turd award.' <<< anything good in there ?

02:48:36 ben_vulpes: i suspect mpoe acts as a stand in for an mpex market fund

02:48:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plenty

02:48:47 Adlai: note that i'm asking less "why did mpoe drop" and more "what evidence supports a correlation as the explanation for the temporal coincidence?"

02:48:49 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but we've no archive any more.

02:49:00 mircea_popescu: sux.

02:49:00 Adlai: for all i care, it could have risen. i hold none (yet)

02:49:33 ben_vulpes: Adlai: if anything, i'd have expected a surge as those who held mpoe bought more to balance their crypto holdings while accumulating more btc

02:49:40 ben_vulpes: mpoe is a goddamn mystery to me, Adlai.

02:49:52 mircea_popescu: Adlai afaik there was never in the entire history of bitcoin proposed some sort of credible / evidenced based interepretation of wtf it does.

02:50:10 ben_vulpes: for the first time ever my mpoe holdings are underwater

02:51:03 ben_vulpes: guess this means is hould sell, eh

02:51:14 mircea_popescu: Adlai: this roman doesn't seem to care much for his friends' feet. perhaps the shoe's pinch points would bother them too, if they were to walk long enough in the same shoes? <<< you know your crowd-* obsession is at some level based on the fundamentally evil notion that people are interchangeable.

02:51:18 mircea_popescu: people are not interchangeable.

02:51:23 asciilifeform: ^

02:51:32 asciilifeform: whole point of the anecdote.

02:52:09 mircea_popescu: there isn't some sort of "us" that could just as well be a standin for any of us.

02:52:12 Adlai: people aren't interchangeable, but shoes (and artifacts of their ilk) are increasingly produced and repaired in an interchangeable manner

02:52:28 mircea_popescu: no mythical man month, because no mythical man, not because no mythical month.

02:52:40 mircea_popescu: Adlai this, because industry is increasingly a piece of shit.

02:52:48 ben_vulpes: yet somehow programmers are supposed to be a dime a doze?

02:52:50 ben_vulpes: dozen?

02:53:10 Adlai: dime a doze sounds closer to reality

02:53:23 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the sort of "programmers" that "add features" should actually be charged to go to work.

02:53:53 mircea_popescu: like, gavin et all, should pay a daily fee to be allowed into the amusement park where they pretend like they matter

02:53:59 mircea_popescu: much like people pay to go to the theatre.

02:54:26 mircea_popescu: much like strippers and whores pay for their place of work, don't get paid by the landlord.

02:54:30 ben_vulpes: they are paying, the bill just isn't due yet.

02:54:34 mircea_popescu: i guess.

02:56:40 bagels7: being a whore is > working minimum wage your whole life

02:57:09 mircea_popescu: depends. spinoza managed just fine on minimum wage.

02:58:07 ben_vulpes: huh i think mine's wedged elsewhere

02:58:17 ben_vulpes: nope nm

02:59:01 mircea_popescu: chain reorg ?

02:59:34 mircea_popescu: "Despite being drowned in graceful donations and membership fees, they just keep piling new and new code without proper specification and proper testing, making mistakes or even forks inevitable and thus providing cover for abominable interests."

02:59:43 mircea_popescu: you know, jurov is actually a very talented historian.

02:59:49 mircea_popescu: i like his story best so far.

03:00:50 Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923008 << a first step in some sort of appropriate direction could be http://organofcorti.blogspot.ru/2014/11/daily-and-weekly-bitcoin-transaction.html although that article doesn't go far enough for interesting results

03:00:50 assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 02:49:52; mircea_popescu: Adlai afaik there was never in the entire history of bitcoin proposed some sort of credible / evidenced based interepretation of wtf it does.

03:00:50 assbot: Neighbourhood Pool Watch: Daily and weekly bitcoin transaction cycles

03:01:14 mircea_popescu: Adlai i meant, "wtf s.mpoe price does"

03:01:20 mircea_popescu: i thought that's what you were asking about.

03:01:27 Adlai: ah. well, both?

03:02:37 ben_vulpes: Adlai: bitcoin days destroyed is a good correlation to check too

03:02:57 Adlai: that, and block reward (fee amount, as opposed to fee count)

03:03:17 ben_vulpes: what's the thesis on block reward?

03:03:41 Adlai: not specifically relating to mpoe, more for possible next steps for analyzing bitcoin network activity metrics

03:04:27 Adlai: the article i linked looks just at confirmed transaction count, which is a narrow metric of all the stuff happening across the bitcoin network

03:06:06 *: Adlai looks at http://www.btcalpha.com/mpex/stocks/s-mpoe/ to place this activity in historical context

03:06:07 assbot: S.MPOE Analysis - Btc Alpha

03:06:23 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu, qntra folks: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/lenta.html

03:06:23 assbot: lenta

03:08:30 mircea_popescu: aha ?

03:08:45 asciilifeform: translation mine. very quick'n'dirty.

03:12:07 Adlai: while people might not treat people as interchangeable, dama fortuna does. "shit happens", especially in warzones... is the revelation in this article supposed to be surprising?

03:12:31 *: Adlai probably used the word "article" a little liberally there

03:12:36 asciilifeform: only to victims of usg cranial reformatting.

03:16:01 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: qntra submission?

03:16:12 asciilifeform: http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2014/07/MH%2017%20flight%20paths_0.png

03:16:22 asciilifeform: ^ 'he ran into my knife! he ran into my knife - ten times.'

03:16:33 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: yes, nominated for consideration on qntra

03:16:37 asciilifeform: or however that goes.

03:16:44 *: asciilifeform has no idea

03:17:02 thestringpuller: cazalla ^^^

03:17:16 asciilifeform: and,

03:17:17 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-11-2014#917653

03:17:17 assbot: Logged on 12-11-2014 00:20:12; mircea_popescu: i don't see you churning out an article a week about how "evil nato" and "nice putin"

03:17:42 cazalla: thestringpuller, not up to date on logs so no idea what this conversation is about yet

03:17:43 asciilifeform: message to moscow - can i pleez get thirty coins of silver now.

03:18:06 asciilifeform: cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923049

03:18:06 assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 03:06:23; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu, qntra folks: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/lenta.html

03:18:59 assbot: Last 18 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0FCDYXH.txt )

03:18:59 Adlai: !b 18

03:19:27 Adlai: that is some impressive lazyness, cazalla. i like it.

03:19:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16402 @ 0.00043481 = 7.1318 BTC [+]

03:21:09 cazalla: Adlai, i read the logs daily, just yet to finish today

03:22:54 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH2] 1249 @ 0.0012 = 1.4988 BTC

03:23:12 thestringpuller: Adlai: cazalla has a media empire to run

03:24:15 *: Adlai is exponentially more likely to have read a log entry, according to the shortest path from the present moment back in time to the target entry, where b-a.com links are weighted roughly the same as simply reading backwards

03:26:59 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 0.5.3 and earlier have wallets, and all the concomittant braindamage... << the wallet code oughn't be snipped outright, but corralled. for later porting to msdos.

03:27:16 Adlai: now that's an interesting hypothesis to test: a bot lurks and tracks "shortest path" to each past message, then records when i link it as opposed to somebody else links it to me

03:27:22 asciilifeform: (well, not necessarily msdos. any sufficiently deterministic system.)

03:27:30 Adlai: for increasingly stoned values of "interesting"

03:28:47 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-10-2014#894581 << that thread.

03:28:47 assbot: Logged on 25-10-2014 03:56:49; asciilifeform: the correct solution is that (now unix-only) turdcoind will listen on a tty. serial tty.

03:30:51 decimation: asciilifeform: ideally in hardware, with physically separate ports

03:31:19 thestringpuller: can't ssh? no pts?

03:31:42 Adlai: https://imgur.com/cuVBhfh

03:32:42 decimation: thestringpuller: you want to ssh to your wallet?

03:32:45 thestringpuller: i ssh to my spending wallet

03:33:01 thestringpuller: but given buterin's waterfall I emptied it out

03:34:05 cazalla: asciilifeform, as much as i appreciate the translation (my primary school teacher died on mh17), it's a bit of a stretch for qntra to publish it as bitcoin news

03:34:26 Adlai: http://i.imgur.com/cuVBhfh << ie, "advertising costs, PR, and miscellaneous" outweighed "ipo fees" during these months

03:35:26 cazalla: i mean, i see the angle given governments but still

03:35:26 Adlai: *these last 15 months

03:35:26 cazalla: Adlai, i'm up to date on logs now btw

03:35:26 decimation: how do these 'northern route' theorists discount the satellite contacts from the engine control systems?

03:36:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13737 @ 0.00042921 = 5.8961 BTC [-]

03:36:36 Adlai: or, in the king's english: MPOE needs to increase IPOs/¼

03:36:45 Adlai: or mpex

03:37:34 *: Adlai can never quite tell the two apart, sorta like body/blood and bread/wine

03:38:03 decimation: asciilifeform: re: our conversation about uav control systems: http://intercepts.defensenews.com/2014/10/why-air-force-drones-rely-on-horsehair-to-land/ << "That’s because the MQ-1/9 are controlled on Ku-Band, which has a two second delay back to the States ... Because of that, launch and recovery experts — trained specifically at Creech AFB for this part of the operation — are based much closer to the area of operations and

03:39:03 decimation: use C-band, which has no delay. "

03:39:03 cazalla: it is interesting they release the images just as the g20 starts here in australia

03:39:03 thestringpuller: adlai that image won't load

03:40:00 Adlai: https://i.imgur.com/cuVBhfh.png?0 "MPOE Net Expenses" snipped from http://www.btcalpha.com/mpex/stocks/s-mpoe/#cash_flow

03:42:00 thestringpuller: Adlai do you know about MPCD?

03:42:00 Adlai: (link works through torify curl, not sure why anything else should fail)

03:42:06 Adlai: !s mpcd

03:42:07 assbot: 2 results for 'mpcd' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=mpcd

03:42:37 thestringpuller: yup

03:42:57 Adlai: mpcd = 1JPvucRfu3ZzEvfBUQTJwsxMrZjeTqD6zR ?

03:43:07 decimation: ;;ticker

03:43:08 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 394.74, Best ask: 395.71, Bid-ask spread: 0.97000, Last trade: 394.71, 24 hour volume: 18807.38370404, 24 hour low: 382.95, 24 hour high: 415.0, 24 hour vwap: 396.951568236

03:43:43 thestringpuller: https://bitcointa.lk/threads/mpex-cdo-roll-call-for-bond-issuers.50044/#post-798717

03:44:16 thestringpuller: For the reason MPCD failed, is likely the reason MPIF is struggling to find profit centers.

03:44:29 thestringpuller: Which effects the entire MPOE economy.

03:44:38 thestringpuller: MPEx*

03:48:13 asciilifeform: ;;isup qntra.net

03:48:14 gribble: qntra.net is up

03:48:17 asciilifeform: odd.

03:48:36 asciilifeform: entirely dead here.

03:48:39 assbot: its been down for 20min

03:48:43 joecool: dead here too

03:49:38 asciilifeform: cazalla: if blob is unfit for qntra - whatever.

03:52:43 Adlai: well, it looks like MPCD "failed" (the contract didn't fail, the shares "just" lost value) due to investing in what could be called "rockstar investors", who seem to make a habit of burning out spectacularly, taking half the fanbase with them

03:54:19 Adlai: more than any bug i've (inadvertently? subliminally coerced into?) introduced to scalpl, i regret the times that i've manually tweaked its trading parameters, and contaminated its performance data with human idiosyncrasies

03:54:40 decimation: qntra.net is dead here too

03:54:54 decimation: someone is messing with routing tables

03:55:50 decimation: trilema is dead too

03:55:58 asciilifeform: aha.

03:56:14 decimation: they are on neighboring subnets

03:56:37 Adlai: ;;isup qntra.net

03:56:38 gribble: qntra.net is up

03:57:00 assbot: log1 as well, same box afaik

03:57:26 thestringpuller: same problem decimation

03:58:59 assbot: its probably our friend 'little numbers' as i call him. he visited bitbet earlier for a moment.

03:59:21 decimation: my router bounces from telia to an isp in pheomix called "cwie llc"

03:59:28 decimation: traceroute that is

03:59:41 decimation: s/phoemix/phoenix/

03:59:45 assbot: phoenix? would be correct.

04:02:04 decimation: is that you kako?

04:02:35 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: can't ssh? no pts? << there is no reason why wallet should be routable to the net.

04:02:48 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: idea was - optoisolated point to point serial link.

04:03:03 asciilifeform: wallet - 'speaks when spoken to.'

04:03:05 asciilifeform: and not otherwise.

04:03:20 asciilifeform: and only when spoken to through the rx/tx wire.

04:03:21 assbot: would you believe me either way?

04:03:44 decimation: sure, if you responded as kako

04:07:30 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah that was my point.. just because something could be 'on the net' doesn't mean it should

04:09:26 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i understand

04:11:26 decimation: !up cascadian_lurker

04:12:09 cascadian_lurker: thanks d

04:12:27 cascadian_lurker: dunno how to tab complete on a pnohe

04:12:36 decimation: lol

04:13:56 cascadian_lurker: logs down?

04:14:31 decimation: log1 is down for me, log isn't

04:15:11 cascadian_lurker: I get no love at either endpoint

04:21:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26764 @ 0.00043157 = 11.5505 BTC [+]

04:26:40 assbot: log2 anyone?

04:28:42 assbot: log1 is back

04:31:05 cazalla: qntra is back

04:32:55 decimation: was the server down?

04:35:48 cazalla: not sure, i just f5 f5 f5 f5 like anyone else

04:43:37 BingoBoingo: assbot: SKip 2, loge

04:44:09 cazalla: when looking for news, i come across quite a few MLM schemes for bitcoin such as bitcoincycler.net, quite a few use pic/video of JuliaTourianski_ lol

04:44:50 cazalla: putin v aussie pm - http://i.imgur.com/orNOUF5.png

04:47:01 decimation: once when I emerged from the Tube in London I was handed one of those free tabloids by some bum. I was amazed at the extremely low quality writing, and pro-welfare ads

04:48:51 The20YearIRCloud: Sport, decimation ?

04:49:30 decimation: eh?

04:50:37 The20YearIRCloud: Weekend/sunday/weekday sport

04:51:09 decimation: yeah I guess that's why people don't immediately toss in the rubbish bid

04:51:09 The20YearIRCloud: https://twitter.com/thesundaysport

04:51:11 assbot: Sunday Sport (@thesundaysport) | Twitter

04:51:49 decimation: eh, it could have been. I felt dirty touching the thing, didn't examine it closely

04:51:51 The20YearIRCloud: I love their 'articles', locally we used to have weekly world news, and it went under. However in the UK for some reason tabloids are HUGE there. Along with soap operas

04:52:07 The20YearIRCloud: http://www.sundaysport.com/?p=17812

04:52:08 assbot: DRUNK BONKS DONER KEBAB | Sunday Sport

04:52:20 decimation: this stuff makes the daily mail look classy

04:53:46 The20YearIRCloud: https://twitter.com/thesundaysport/status/531177165212360704

04:53:49 assbot: Warning: Don't buff your ballbag on a shoe shine machine. Here's why - in tomorrow's /thesundaysport http://t.co/moIlQF7RUE

04:54:29 decimation: here's the american version http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/14/gruber-has-made-at-least-5-9-million-for-government-work/

04:54:30 assbot: Gruber Has Made At Least $5.9 Million For Government Work | The Daily Caller

04:56:01 The20YearIRCloud: That's a website though i think, the sport is an actual magazine in most places

04:57:13 decimation: why don't they have tabloids based in say columbus?

04:57:49 The20YearIRCloud: We have a few in the US, and they're all celeb rags. We *had* WWN but they went under

04:57:58 The20YearIRCloud: We'll never know what happened to batboy unfortunately

04:58:45 The20YearIRCloud: They still have a site, but no one visits it : http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/54540/chicago-to-be-renamed-obama-city/

04:58:46 assbot: CHICAGO TO BE RENAMED “OBAMA CITY” | Weekly World News

04:58:58 decimation: lol

05:00:59 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: do you do any business in franklin county?

05:01:33 The20YearIRCloud: Housewise? No, not a fan of their zoning & property inspection board. If we grow enough i'm sure i'll HAVE to go there, but for now i'd like to avoid it.

05:01:59 The20YearIRCloud: One of the counties we're in has virtually no permiting process for home repairs, if I did the stuff I'm doing there in Columbus I'd of had 5 figures worth of fines.

05:02:10 The20YearIRCloud: (Of course, I'd of got a permit in Franklin, but I hate the idea of it all).

05:02:14 decimation: do you think that's because they are in the union trade's pockets?

05:02:37 The20YearIRCloud: That wouldn't surprise me much, but they also have had coleman who is a ultra-liberal for years and years.

05:03:01 The20YearIRCloud: He's got a big claim to fame because he's good at 'renovating' poor districts, he does it by moving all the poor people from one neighborhood to another.

05:03:41 The20YearIRCloud: Downtown was a cesspool, then they kicked everyone out and made it so only rich could live there, alot of those moved to the short north. Then they did the same thing with the short north and all those people moved to Linden and Hilltop.

05:04:59 decimation: I've heard the short north is popular with the kids around osu

05:05:07 The20YearIRCloud: I had a house up there I was dealing with for someone, and I had roofers up there doing work. Zoning came by and complained that we hadn't bought the $100 permit, so they forced the guys off the roof even though it was going to rain soon and wouldn't let them put the tarp up there till there was a permit.

05:06:05 decimation: this as much as anyone 'owns' a house in the us

05:06:51 The20YearIRCloud: Well, you can drive 45 minutes outside of a columbus where you can buy land, build a smoke factory and the county asks for a $5 paperwork fee and literally nothing else

05:07:15 decimation: heh

05:08:04 The20YearIRCloud: So, if I can go into a neighborhood where they really don't want me there, and one where the city bends over backwards to try and help me out, i'll go with the second one

05:08:11 The20YearIRCloud: Especially if the yields in both are almost identical

05:09:30 decimation: well, that's a fair point.

05:09:56 decimation: I imagine property tax in columbus and the 'burbs is sky high too

05:10:05 The20YearIRCloud: it's higher, it isn't astronomical though

05:10:23 The20YearIRCloud: A cheap house where we're working will run $450-$800 , same house in Columbus would be $1000-$1200

05:10:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23499 @ 0.00042279 = 9.9351 BTC [-]

05:11:12 The20YearIRCloud: of course the scale of markets is quite different. In the 4 counties I expect to be able to find maybe 200 quality properties a year. In franklin I could find 200 a month easily.

05:11:52 decimation: for the quality of hovel you are buying and fixing, wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a few empty plots and buy some trailers or 'tiny homes' or whatever

05:12:48 decimation: I guess you gotta pay for utilities, etc in that case

05:12:55 The20YearIRCloud: You seen the houses we own?

05:13:25 The20YearIRCloud: I haven't delt with trailers yet, I want to but it's a different deal since you have to develop them out (including sewage) which is an EPA deal you can't get around easily.

05:13:30 decimation: I recall you saying a few months ago that they are all really old

05:13:40 The20YearIRCloud: Yeah, they are, but all are in good shape

05:14:13 decimation: yeah I guess where you are there is no water or sewage

05:14:29 The20YearIRCloud: It depends on where you want to do the trailer

05:14:33 decimation: septic systems are not cheap

05:14:38 The20YearIRCloud: Our first one was 2000sf, 5+br , 2ba, attached garage, built in 1880 and it turned out great

05:14:43 The20YearIRCloud: $10k-$20k

05:15:41 decimation: back in that time that would have been a mansion

05:15:48 decimation: or a multi-family house

05:17:03 The20YearIRCloud: Here's a bunch of random photos I had on my cellphone - https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rpzhm6eb5c14upe/AADe8OLgg4k-LFt2Xs3No9CEa

05:18:03 The20YearIRCloud: It would have been a medium/high level person's house. It's near downtown and is only a few houses away from a speakeasy that was in operation during prohibition. It sold recently (the speakeasy) for around $200k.

05:19:05 decimation: that's pretty nice inside actually

05:19:09 decimation: better than a trailer anyway

05:19:14 The20YearIRCloud: Those are 3 or 4 different houses

05:19:28 decimation: that first kitchen is nice

05:19:37 decimation: was that the amish fellows who cleaned it up?

05:19:43 The20YearIRCloud: I know I joke about owning slum houses, but they're all actually very nice. I underprice our rentals by maybe 5%-10% under normal market prices, and keep em in slightly better shape.

05:19:55 The20YearIRCloud: That first kitchen was the first complete rehab we did on a kitchen, every single thing there is brand new.

05:20:43 The20YearIRCloud: Second kitchen photo is from a duplex we just bought for $30k ($15k a side)

05:23:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that flgiuht path thing is not nearly as indicative as it may seem to the casual observer.

05:23:34 mircea_popescu: flight paths in europe are seasonal.

05:25:18 mircea_popescu: Adlai: now that's an interesting hypothesis to test: a bot lurks and tracks "shortest path" to each past message, then records when i link it as opposed to somebody else links it to me <<< actually a reconstruction of the ba logs where lines are nodes and they're given pr as per original google mechanism may be the first step towards stemming this whole bundle.

05:28:10 Adlai: right, but then you can look at properties of the graph's flow to draw wildly overzealous conclusions about the attentiveness and lazyness of real live humans

05:35:12 mircea_popescu: decimation:trilema is dead too << still ?

05:35:43 BingoBoingo: http://m.tn.com.ar/deportes/tremendo/indignante-el-presidente-de-textil-mandiyu-le-robo-a-sus-jugadores-con-la-ayuda-de-los-barras_544582

05:36:43 decimation: yeah it's still down for me

05:36:43 mircea_popescu: decimation: my router bounces from telia to an isp in pheomix called "cwie llc" <<< this sounds like a route hijack then. qntra is in amsterdam.

05:36:43 decimation: interestingly I'm getting pings through, very very slowly

05:36:43 mircea_popescu: what ip ?

05:36:50 assbot: qntra is on phoenix nap, amsterdam.

05:37:00 mircea_popescu: http://qntra.net/2014/11/cfpbs-proposed-rules-governing-prepaid-cards-include-virtual-currency/

05:38:00 decimation: is it hosted by 'secured servers'?

05:38:00 mircea_popescu: the heck can i see it then ?

05:38:00 assbot: ;;isup also everything even if it not a valid url

05:38:01 gribble: also everything even if it not a valid url is up

05:38:07 mircea_popescu: anyway, this is proving impossible to debug, people not seeing it pls to pastebin traceroutes at the time you don't see it.

05:38:26 mircea_popescu: uh so that's broken ?

05:38:35 mircea_popescu: ;;isup example.com

05:38:35 gribble: example.com is up

05:38:36 decimation: hehe yeah

05:38:40 mircea_popescu: gah

05:38:45 decimation: ;;isup isuck.com

05:38:46 gribble: isuck.com is up

05:38:59 assbot: "example.com" actually is up

05:39:14 mircea_popescu: internet needs a canoniucal down domain

05:39:31 mircea_popescu: ;;isup obamacare.com

05:39:31 gribble: obamacare.com is up

05:39:41 decimation: ;;isup canonicaldowndomain.com

05:39:42 gribble: canonicaldowndomain.com is down

05:39:46 decimation: lol

05:39:46 mircea_popescu: aha!

05:40:05 assbot: decimation yes its hosted there

05:40:17 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923264 << srsly

05:40:17 assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 05:39:46; mircea_popescu: aha!

05:40:23 mircea_popescu: so how the fuck then!

05:40:31 decimation: well they have a pheonix pop

05:40:42 decimation: who knows how shit gets routed

05:40:46 BingoBoingo: ;;isup test.down

05:40:47 gribble: test.down is down

05:41:10 assbot: that entry is wrong, its routed just fine to ams

05:41:14 mircea_popescu: assbot : pm lol

05:42:01 mircea_popescu: also, re earlier discussion : http://i.imgur.com/0C5fmGB.jpg

05:43:02 decimation: is that your picture of an ohio hovel?

05:43:02 mircea_popescu: lol

05:43:57 mircea_popescu:

05:44:57 decimation: yeah qntra is up

05:44:57 decimation: I donno, it smells to me like a server problem

05:46:06 joecool: responding to ping for me, nothing else

05:46:08 mircea_popescu: how the fuck. the server has been up all along, the load is like 0.1 or some shit for the hour.

05:46:24 joecool: mircea_popescu: nginx or whatever other server you use on it crashed?

05:46:29 decimation: interesting

05:46:37 mircea_popescu: joecool nope.

05:46:52 mircea_popescu: how the fuck would i see pages on a crashed server anyway.

05:47:05 cazalla: is that Bruno Kucinskas all there in the head? he reckons patrick murck raped like 30 kids

05:47:57 mircea_popescu: phin gage is a little strange. he does tons of research, some of which is useufl.

05:48:53 Adlai: ;;isup http://dead.link/

05:49:53 gribble: http://dead.link/ is down

05:50:20 Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923258 << localhost:0

05:50:20 assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 05:39:14; mircea_popescu: internet needs a canoniucal down domain

05:50:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42500 @ 0.00043684 = 18.5657 BTC [+] {2}

05:52:26 mircea_popescu: ;;isup localhost:0

05:52:27 gribble: localhost:0 is up

05:52:31 mircea_popescu: so muh for that idea.

05:53:53 Adlai: ;;isup http://localhost:0/

05:54:53 gribble: http://localhost:0/ is up

05:54:53 Adlai: hmph.

05:54:53 Adlai: curl: (7) Failed to connect to localhost port 0: Connection refused

05:54:53 *: Adlai wonders what's running on... some server

05:55:03 assbot: ;;isup adlais penis

05:55:04 gribble: adlais penis is up

05:55:29 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1MAK2HC.txt )

05:55:29 BingoBoingo: !b 3

05:56:17 assbot: ha, im unbashable

05:56:46 BingoBoingo: lol

05:57:21 decimation: the server is up, it looks to me that there is at least one route that is being ddosed/constantly reset

05:57:45 *: Adlai was wondering about ;;isup's server, should've !b5ed for that context

05:57:59 mircea_popescu: decimation the best i can come up with is that yes, some weakly router that is nevertheless for insane unexplainable reason priority route from the us is constantly fucked up

05:58:12 mircea_popescu: and im not even sure that i can do anything about it other than write angry letters.

05:58:31 decimation: yeah probably not

05:58:45 decimation: someone might have figured out how to trip the 'anti-ddos rate-limit' trap

05:58:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3784 @ 0.00042279 = 1.5998 BTC [-]

05:59:03 BingoBoingo: At this rate we might need a router foundation!

05:59:05 mircea_popescu: why does it only catch you folk ?

05:59:47 decimation: I donno. if there is some theoretical anti-ddos filter, it might try to limit its action to certain subnets?

06:00:00 mircea_popescu: maybe ?

06:00:13 mircea_popescu: anyway, i'm having this looked into, but i tell you i dun even know wtf.

06:01:55 *: BingoBoingo hasn't had trouble accessing qntra in quite a while a few hundred miles from geographic center of USia

06:02:16 decimation: yeah in theory the internet has all kinds of redundant routing, in practice there are many chokepoints it would seem

06:02:27 Adlai: lizard nazis probing the turmite colony's readership habits

06:02:36 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo so can you load it right now ?

06:02:55 BingoBoingo: Yeah, loads all kinds of fast

06:03:16 mircea_popescu: dude srsly...

06:03:57 RagnarDanneskjol: i just tried it from multiple IPs in US and EU - no luck here

06:04:35 decimation: I can get to qntra, but not trilema

06:04:44 joecool: qntra works from romanian ip

06:04:59 decimation: ah, now trilema works for me

06:05:02 mircea_popescu: o.O

06:05:17 joecool: lets try some other countries

06:05:21 mircea_popescu: joecool of course, i'm in argentina...

06:05:43 mircea_popescu: decimation this sporadic working no working would seem to mean route.

06:06:19 joecool: works from UK

06:06:47 decimation: yeah it could be some kind of route poisoning

06:06:55 mircea_popescu: the future of ba is point to point cabling it'd seem.

06:07:06 decimation: no - shortwave

06:07:21 Adlai: works now.

06:07:25 Adlai: (from tel aviv)

06:07:44 joecool: works back in 'murica now

06:07:47 joecool: they're onto us

06:07:59 mircea_popescu: maybe it's bitchbased.

06:09:14 BingoBoingo: Ass end of my traceroute to qntra.net http://dpaste.com/1QTVGPF

06:10:15 BingoBoingo: 1up fivezerotwo

06:10:22 BingoBoingo: !up fivezerotwo

06:10:52 joecool: BingoBoingo: looks same as mine except i have a ??? between the last two

06:10:52 fivezerotwo: hello again. so assbot appears to be hosted on this server, interesting

06:11:08 fivezerotwo: have fun figuring out what this attack is ^_^

06:11:11 assbot: not rly.

06:11:35 fivezerotwo: assbot, well it was taking a while to respond here

06:11:45 Adlai: !s fivezerotwo

06:11:46 assbot: 154 results for 'fivezerotwo' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=fivezerotwo

06:12:04 assbot: im a slow typist.

06:12:25 fivezerotwo: lol

06:12:43 *: Adlai toils and link graph bubbles

06:18:56 mircea_popescu: In the beginning there was assembler. And programming was hard. The semantic gap between how humans think about problems and what we knew how to tell computers to do was vast; our ability to manage complexity was deficient. And in the gap software defects did flourish, multiplying in direct proportion to the size of the programs we wrote.

06:18:56 mircea_popescu: And the lives of programmers were hard, and the case of their end-users miserable; for, strive as the programmers might, perfection was achieved only in toy programs while in real-world systems the defect rate was nigh-intolerable. And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

06:19:01 mircea_popescu: this is the stupidest thing i ever read.

06:19:11 mircea_popescu: i have NEVER and I do mean NEVER saw programs as good as bacxk in the days of asm.

06:19:30 mircea_popescu: i don't even think code as tight can still be made, much like you can't have a proper boot made anymore, and hardly a proper suit of clothes.

06:19:45 mircea_popescu: certainly not a top hat.

06:20:33 mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe their lives were harder, but 1960s programmers certainly seem happier.

06:21:05 mircea_popescu: perhaps because asm hard is the proper sort of hard. whereas dependency hell and library cruft is the horribly bad sort of hard.

06:21:25 decimation: well, the systems were small enough to 'fit in the head' as ascii might say

06:21:26 mircea_popescu: climbing a mountain versus diving in a septic tank sort of hard.

06:21:26 Adlai: !s bacxk

06:21:26 assbot: 2 results for 'bacxk' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bacxk

06:22:04 Adlai: oh it's a typo

06:22:45 assbot: !b 3

06:22:53 mircea_popescu: lol you ocd soul you.

06:24:20 assbot: ;;echo !b 5

06:24:21 assbot: Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3WFTZ0G.txt )

06:24:21 gribble: !b 5

06:24:56 assbot: nope, not satisfactory

06:25:23 mircea_popescu: ;;echo !echo ;;echo !b 18

06:25:24 gribble: !echo ;;echo !b 18

06:25:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13350 @ 0.00042279 = 5.6442 BTC [-]

06:28:06 mircea_popescu: ;;google horatiu capastru

06:28:06 gribble: Iunie 2009 pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.: http://trilema.com/2009/06; Gandesc, deci gandesc pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.: http://trilema.com/category/gandesc-deci-gandesc/

06:28:13 Adlai: ;;google recursion

06:28:14 gribble: Recursion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursion; Recursion (computer science) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursion_(computer_science); Recursion -- from Wolfram MathWorld: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Recursion.html

06:28:26 Adlai: hm, no link to the google results page?

06:30:55 thestringpuller: ;;isup qntra.net

06:30:56 *: Adlai is talking about "<span class="spell _uwb">Did you mean:</span> <a class="spell" href="/search?espv=2&amp;q=recursion&amp;spell=1"><b><i>recursion</i></b></a> "

06:30:57 gribble: qntra.net is up

06:31:07 thestringpuller: qntra still down for anyone in US?

06:31:14 mircea_popescu: is it for you ?

06:31:31 thestringpuller: yessir

06:32:13 decimation: qntra.net is down for me now, trilema too

06:32:25 fivezerotwo: mircea_popescu, it's down, I'm sure. http://check-host.net/check-http?host=qntra.net

06:33:25 *: mircea_popescu shrugs

06:33:25 TheNewDeal: bitbet is raging on

06:37:04 thestringpuller: http://dpaste.com/3H14489.txt << when asking coinbase about buterin's waterfall

06:38:01 mircea_popescu: lol why harassing indians.

06:38:16 Adlai: thestringpuller: why not link in http://qntra.net/2014/11/bip-65-revisiting-nlocktime/ to the polished code? https://github.com/adlai/bitcoin/blob/polish/src/main.h#L397

06:38:31 assbot: BIP-65: Revisiting nLockTime | Qntra.net

06:39:31 mircea_popescu: wait was this supposed to work ?!

06:39:57 thestringpuller: Adlai: i can't see the article yet so I can't answer the question

06:40:25 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller it's your article from yest

06:40:28 mircea_popescu: or w/e the 13th was

06:40:39 Adlai: or if you don't want to use the polish fork for some reason, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.5.3/src/main.h#L403

06:41:39 TheNewDeal: !sideways fivezerotwo

06:41:39 Adlai: thestringpuller: BIP65 article, link to CTransaction::nLockTime

06:42:32 thestringpuller: yes I see. does it really matter?

06:43:40 thestringpuller: just a uint32 variable I was trying to show

06:46:09 Adlai: nope

06:46:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i don't even think code as tight can still be made, much like you can't have a proper boot made... << oh but it can.

06:46:37 mircea_popescu: maybe.

06:47:11 decimation: asciilifeform: on new hardware?

06:47:23 asciilifeform: decimation: on whatever hardware.

06:48:07 asciilifeform: decimation: another generation or three of 'this', and hardware will look like the same shitfest as os/sw stack is now. fortunately 'this' doesn't have even one generation left in it.

06:48:36 mircea_popescu: so we hope.

06:48:41 mircea_popescu: if they find fusion, it does.

06:48:57 decimation: 'this' being the current state of computing?

06:48:59 asciilifeform: if they find fusion, laser wars between flying machines.

06:49:05 asciilifeform: hopefully everything is destroyed.

06:49:05 thestringpuller: hmm. am I on qntra blacklist?

06:49:11 thestringpuller: @mircea_popescu

06:49:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61450 @ 0.0004271 = 26.2453 BTC [+] {2}

06:49:47 decimation: I want my pocket laser gun

06:50:29 asciilifeform: incidentally, for implications of working fusion, straight to:

06:50:33 asciilifeform: !s you and the atomic bomb

06:50:34 assbot: 8 results for 'you and the atomic bomb' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=you+and+the+atomic+bomb

06:50:44 asciilifeform: applies just as readily here as it did in 1945 re: fission.

06:51:01 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller it dun has a blacklist

06:51:11 decimation: imagine 'future war' where your squad as a 'laser machine gun'. In order to take the next hill, you need to lay down suppressing fire. the laser machine gunner opens up, and the enemy doesn't notice

06:51:13 asciilifeform: qntra dead here.

06:51:24 decimation: qntra is dead, but trilmea just popped up again

06:51:25 asciilifeform: lol, laser suppressing fire

06:51:30 thestringpuller: guess east coast thing

06:51:32 asciilifeform: what next, laser musketry volley?

06:51:36 decimation: maybe he can screw 'pew pew pew'

06:51:42 thestringpuller: ;;lasers

06:51:42 gribble: ┌━ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ *pew!* *pew!* *pew!*

06:51:48 decimation: s/screw/scream/

06:52:18 decimation: I suspect that fusion-powered robots will be doing most of the fighting anyway

06:52:20 Adlai: asciilifeform: if you want to find when bitcoin started to have value, just look at when people began hoarding it: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/2881 suggests the april 2010 as the start of hoarding

06:53:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17350 @ 0.00042279 = 7.3354 BTC [-]

06:53:21 asciilifeform: decimation: meatbags will still do 100% of the dying.

06:53:21 decimation: sure

06:53:21 decimation: plus robot ninjas are expensive

06:54:04 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> what next, laser musketry volley? <<< srsly. what's this supression fire, like laser welding ?

06:54:32 mircea_popescu: Adlai what's this "start of hoarding" thing mean ?

06:54:35 decimation: I imagine there's going to have to be some kind of visible protocol, otherwise the enemy would simply be confused about what's going on

06:54:40 mircea_popescu: the first blocks mined are still unspent.

06:54:49 asciilifeform: the enemy can be reasonably certain of his own death.

06:54:53 asciilifeform: when it happens.

06:54:58 mircea_popescu: decimation if you could fire silent bullets you'd find loud ones because protocol ?

06:55:17 decimation: yeah, like full metal jackets

06:55:19 mircea_popescu: and wtf is "visible laser" anyway

06:55:29 Adlai: mircea_popescu: playing around with the magnitude of "valuable" in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#922718

06:55:29 assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 00:41:00; asciilifeform: because it is the only one which existed upon the earth before bitcoin was valuable!

06:55:35 mircea_popescu: not like military grade laser will be like in star trek

06:55:38 asciilifeform: visible laser << rayleigh scattering.

06:55:55 decimation: right, one that transmits somewhere in the visible spectrum (to humans)

06:55:56 asciilifeform: switch on a toy green laser in dark room.

06:56:07 Adlai: max paranoia = starting around april 2010, at least one tla began stockpiling coins

06:56:12 asciilifeform: switch on large far-ir laser - also visible (!) - heated air

06:56:17 decimation: I suspect the first 'military laser' will be infrared

06:56:29 mircea_popescu: decimation you're late. the first military laser IS co2, uv.

06:56:39 decimation: heh yeah good point

06:56:47 decimation: but that wasn't really a man-portable system

06:56:52 mircea_popescu: it woulkd be uv and uuv anyway. higher energy better focus less scatter.

06:56:54 asciilifeform: which 'military laser' ? there are 1000.

06:56:56 Adlai: well, short of satoshi acting in a tla-ish manner, perhaps due to belonging to a tla himself

06:57:06 mircea_popescu: ;;ud tla

06:57:07 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TLA | TLA is a three-letter-acronym for three-letter-acronyms. by uncle tom ... It always have been and will be Lucas and Peyton, TLA (True Love Always). by lp_tla ...

06:57:07 decimation: Something you could give to a grunt to replace his rifle

06:57:28 mircea_popescu: i doubt you will have man operated lasers anyway

06:57:35 mircea_popescu: it'd be 100% drones

06:57:36 asciilifeform: what the hell would be the point?

06:57:40 mircea_popescu: right ?

06:57:43 decimation: exactly

06:57:53 asciilifeform: i suppose it's hard to blow yer own brains out with a drone.

06:57:57 asciilifeform: although still doable.

06:58:03 decimation: or frag your lt

06:58:04 mircea_popescu: why hard ?

06:58:47 asciilifeform: incidentally, if 'cheap and compact source of infinite energy', the 'plasma rifle' from 'doom', etc. can exist.

06:58:48 decimation: actually this brings up a good point, why aren't 'silent guns' more popular in military circles

06:58:54 Adlai: "TLA is a three-letter-acronym for three-letter-acronyms." << i'd go as far as/cronyms/gencies/

06:59:00 mircea_popescu: decimation because they can't be made.

06:59:01 asciilifeform: ionized atmosphere with laser, pump current through

06:59:06 asciilifeform: a la 'jacob's ladder.

06:59:19 decimation: are you saying that you can't use a silencer and a sub-sonic round?

06:59:19 dub: lockheed are buildinf fusion batteries now

06:59:25 dub: wont be long

06:59:28 mircea_popescu: so they claim yeah.

06:59:41 asciilifeform: decimation: the actual 'silent pistol' does not use a gas silencer.

06:59:45 asciilifeform: nor is it entirely silent

06:59:51 mircea_popescu: i suppose the next logical bezzle step is a tesla-lockheed merger

06:59:56 asciilifeform: (mechanical noise from the action. the bullet still whistles. etc)

07:00:09 mircea_popescu: just think, the promise of the electric car married to the promise of the fusion battery

07:00:14 decimation: yeah I agree they aren't 100% silent, but the advantages of silence seem to be large

07:00:19 asciilifeform: decimation: http://topwar.ru/21240-besshumnyy-patron-hm76-ssha.html

07:01:20 asciilifeform: that one.

07:01:20 BingoBoingo: <decimation> are you saying that you can't use a silencer and a sub-sonic round? << Range and terminal energy at the target become huge problems this way

07:01:20 asciilifeform: gas stays in.

07:01:20 mircea_popescu: decimation swat / town warfare teams use supressed weapons

07:01:20 mircea_popescu: mostly so they don't bleed from the ears.

07:01:20 decimation: I suppose the idea that the 'standard grunt' is snaking up on someone is unlikely

07:01:20 decimation: s/snaking/sneaking/

07:01:20 decimation: but snaking works too

07:01:20 thestringpuller: solid snake

07:01:20 asciilifeform: incidentally, if the magic fusor can be nudged into chain reaction, it's game over.

07:01:32 decimation: asciilifeform: what do you mean, like a fusion bomb?

07:01:38 asciilifeform: doesn't even matter if 99 in a hundred men who open theirs, die

07:01:58 asciilifeform: decimation: yes.

07:02:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not hard to make it limited.

07:02:37 asciilifeform: 'Had the atomic bomb turned out to be something as cheap and easily manufactured as a bicycle or an alarm clock, it might well have plunged us back into barbarism, but it might, on the other hand, have meant the end of national sovereignty and of the highly-centralised police state. If, as seems to be the case, it is a rare and costly object as difficult to produce as a battleship, it is likelier to put an end

07:02:37 asciilifeform: to large-scale wars at the cost of prolonging indefinitely a ?peace that is no peace?.'

07:02:43 asciilifeform: make it limited << lol

07:02:53 asciilifeform: what has been limited by the hand of man, can be un-limited.

07:02:57 mircea_popescu: how ?

07:02:58 Adlai: thestringpuller: overall though i liked the bip65 article, it was worded neutrally enough that it could almost be tagged 'News'

07:03:10 asciilifeform: unless the case is one of 'intrinsic' safety a la fissile mechanics

07:03:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform has the hand of man enabled the disabled cores in an intel chip ?

07:03:25 decimation: right, the 'fissile' bomb runs out of fissile material

07:03:31 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: give man a few days with ion beam workstation.

07:03:31 mircea_popescu: how do you add deuterium inside the core ? with an enema pump ?

07:03:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you sit down and think about it for a bit, you can figure out six different methods.

07:03:58 mircea_popescu: yeah, and ?

07:04:02 asciilifeform: 'there is no safe that can be kept in the robber's living room.'

07:04:03 mircea_popescu: i'd rather think about kim's butt.

07:04:13 mircea_popescu: so would 99 men in a 100

07:04:21 asciilifeform: aha but we just need the 1.

07:04:43 dub: kim dotcom?

07:04:43 cazalla: mircea_popescu, working but slowly http://pastebin.com/4XCDXVSi

07:05:43 mircea_popescu: well, let's ut it this way : the reason the state does not collapse in a tsunami of violence is not now nor was it ever historically that such would be physically impossible.

07:05:43 mircea_popescu: it is always that nobody can be bothered.

07:05:43 cazalla: well, qntra is intermittent for me

07:05:43 mircea_popescu: otherwise, see the experiences of the various members of the tsar's fambly with artisanal bombs

07:05:43 asciilifeform: what if herr frein spent his life contemplating how to rewire his fusor

07:05:43 asciilifeform: instead of marksmanship

07:05:43 mircea_popescu: dub no, the fat female kim. champagne assgirl.

07:05:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this curren state will collapse regardless. not a technical, but a policital problem. it just sucks.

07:05:57 mircea_popescu: nothing can save it.

07:06:04 asciilifeform: right now it takes more than one man, however enthusiastic, working in his basement for twenty years, to level a city.

07:06:24 mircea_popescu: not so

07:06:30 mircea_popescu: recall the case of the kid who built his own nuke

07:06:33 mircea_popescu: out of smoke detectors ?

07:06:37 asciilifeform: except he didn't

07:06:46 decimation: he just built a waste site

07:07:09 mircea_popescu: well, he didn't work for the full 20 years either.

07:07:11 asciilifeform: lovely legend, but fails kindergarten physics.

07:07:41 decimation: although thorium is a fissile material

07:07:45 mircea_popescu: the sad truth of the matter is that with the current state of manufacturing, i could build my own nuke. wouldn't even take a decade.

07:07:57 asciilifeform: at any rate, the operative boojum wouldn't be the demolition of a particular plot of real estate.

07:08:00 mircea_popescu: i can centrifuge my own uranium, there's plenty of places where it's directly exploitable etc.

07:08:17 asciilifeform: but a demonstration of 'with fiddybucks any discontented sod can now do it where he wants'

07:08:20 mircea_popescu: the fact that the iranians don't manage just shows how fucktarded htey are. it's by now a one man job.

07:08:33 thestringpuller: Adlai: i don't think it was tagged as news

07:08:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: use laser separation.

07:08:57 mircea_popescu: im not intending to lay out an actualrecipe here

07:09:01 mircea_popescu: just making the general point.

07:09:02 asciilifeform: 1/10000th the cost of conventional gas centrifuge.

07:09:14 asciilifeform: above is more or less the recipe

07:09:23 decimation: sorting out u235 from the other neutron spewing isotopes isn't trivial

07:09:36 asciilifeform: (u-235 and u-238 have different absorption spectra)

07:09:48 mircea_popescu: decimation the original bombs were'nt that classy.

07:09:51 mircea_popescu: they won a war

07:09:57 mircea_popescu: the much classier later versions won no war.

07:10:00 mircea_popescu: see what i mean ?

07:10:31 asciilifeform: actually iran tried to build laser separator. the men involved - died. and not of industrial accidents.

07:10:33 TheNewDeal: thats to be determined

07:10:40 asciilifeform: died of 'problems'

07:10:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kinda what i mean by "inept iran"

07:11:07 asciilifeform: then they went on to the 'old classic' recipe, and made sure to run moar winblows.

07:11:11 asciilifeform: (literally)

07:11:16 mircea_popescu: state that can't build a pot is one thing. state that can't keep a secret however, deserves to die.

07:11:45 Adlai: !s feeling of power

07:11:46 assbot: 12 results for 'feeling of power' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=feeling+of+power

07:11:49 Adlai: excellent

07:12:08 asciilifeform: state that can't keep a secret << incidentally, notice that no complete 'dump' for ru nuke of whatever variety ever hit the net.

07:12:15 cazalla: mircea_popescu: certainly not a top hat. <<< maybe akubra? nfi on top hats but they have a solid rep

07:12:17 Adlai: specifically http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-04-2014#624410

07:12:17 assbot: Logged on 14-04-2014 18:26:21; gribble: THE FEELING OF POWER by Isaac Asimov Worlds of Science ...: http://www.math.umn.edu/~rusin018/1271_Fall_2006/extra_1.pdf; The Feeling of Power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power; MathFiction: The Feeling of Power (Isaac Asimov) - Alex Kasman: http://kasmana.people.cofc.edu/MATHFICT/mfview.php?callnumber=mf4

07:12:52 mircea_popescu: cazalla i know specifically what im talking about, because the last looms capable of making the required felt were destroyed a decade ago as part of a family feud.

07:13:00 mircea_popescu: the world has physically lost the capacity to produce top hats.

07:13:19 mircea_popescu: to me this is much worse news than the extinction of whatever stupid fish or crap

07:13:25 decimation: asciilifeform: of course stalin's agents were all over the us bomb as it was being made

07:13:27 asciilifeform: aha like the u.s. hbomb tamper foam.

07:13:53 cazalla: mircea_popescu, sounds familiar, this story on trilema?

07:13:55 asciilifeform: some of us here, imho, shall live to see the felt brought back.

07:14:00 mircea_popescu: cazalla not sure, mebbe not.

07:14:14 cazalla: something to do with looms is, that i know

07:14:49 asciilifeform: ;;google fogbank

07:14:49 gribble: FOGBANK - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOGBANK; Fog Bank: Capitola's Funnest Bar & Grille: http://www.the-fogbank.com/; Jeffrey Lewis • FOGBANK: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/1814/fogbank

07:14:56 asciilifeform: ^ relevant

07:16:06 decimation: what about the homburg hat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homburg_%28hat%29

07:23:18 BingoBoingo: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/14/rosetta-comet-dr-matt-taylor-apology-sexist-shirt#comment-43664788

07:24:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41927 @ 0.00042729 = 17.915 BTC [+]

07:24:18 mircea_popescu: oh for fucks sake

07:24:50 mircea_popescu: fucking idiot.

07:25:18 asciilifeform: exam - failed.

07:25:19 mircea_popescu: see, it's imbeciles like this that cause trouble. now the point will have to be carved out of some innocent women's skin that nobody gives a shit.

07:25:32 mircea_popescu: had he just pointed and laughed at the "offended" idiots we could have just moved on.

07:25:52 mircea_popescu: basically matt taylor is personally responsible for a few violent gangrrapes now.

07:28:16 mircea_popescu: we need to bully these autistic savants a whole of a lot more, can't be letting the libtards having all the fun.

07:28:18 decimation: yeah I don't get it, if your'e gonna wear a shirt with semi-naked women in front of an international audience, show some follow-through

07:28:53 asciilifeform: 'Knowledge can be lost. Sometimes this is perfectly reasonable: No one knows how to kill and skin a mastodon anymore, for obvious reasons. And cultures frequently lose knowledge as they evolve past it--you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who could write a computer program on punch-cards today. But there is something worrisome about misplacing knowledge that is only a generation or two old. And this happens mor

07:28:53 asciilifeform: e often than you might think. ... ... Space enthusiasts say, 'If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we put a man on the moon?' "The answer, Simberg explains, is that we can't "because most of the people who did it are in their dotage or dead, and a lot of it was more art than science."'

07:29:01 asciilifeform: ( http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/479avvbv.asp?pg=2 )

07:30:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im pretty sure i can still write on punch cards.

07:30:01 asciilifeform: not hard.

07:30:01 asciilifeform: bad example, not because of greybeards, but because of demented archaeologists like yours truly

07:30:26 asciilifeform: and i can hardly imagine a modern big-game hunter having any serious troubles with a mastodon.

07:30:35 asciilifeform: but i can sorta see the point he was trying to make.

07:30:54 mircea_popescu: i sorta can't.

07:31:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45200 @ 0.00043661 = 19.7348 BTC [+] {2}

07:31:06 asciilifeform: eh we just skinned a balloon, haven't we.

07:31:30 mircea_popescu: knowledge != technology.

07:31:30 decimation: asciilifeform: there's a good example of the 'art v. science' re: moon program here: http://eb-misfit.blogspot.com/2013/10/relighting-saturn-vs-f-1-rocket-engine.html?showComment=1381683061332#c1607749688683256926 "There were single welds on the engine that took all day to weld, by hand, and there were thousands of such welds. The engineers working on the new F1 copy say that theirs has less than 1/10th the parts of the original F1

07:32:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6109 @ 0.00043769 = 2.6738 BTC [+]

07:32:30 decimation: and should be easily mass produced. "

07:32:30 mircea_popescu: i still know how to make a felt hat

07:32:30 mircea_popescu: doesn't mean the machines still exist.

07:32:30 decimation: each saturn rocket was basically a metal art peice

07:32:32 asciilifeform: decimation: this is not actually uncommon at the 'what is the factory made of' level in industry.

07:32:47 asciilifeform: ultimately, there is no factory that churns out pilot plants

07:32:52 mircea_popescu: used to. nowadays it's pretty rare.

07:33:00 asciilifeform: craftsmanship all the way down, after a certain point.

07:33:09 decimation: there's a point there

07:33:25 decimation: someone has to program the robots after all

07:34:14 asciilifeform: much of what makes civilization tick, is not available off the shelf, and the entire notion is nonsensical.

07:34:25 mircea_popescu: whosoever programs the robots doesn't have to do so with chewing gum however.

07:34:35 mircea_popescu: the fact that bitcoin .5.3 is full of spot welds is not a quality.

07:35:14 punkman: .notary status

07:35:21 punkman: notary status

07:35:22 notary: punkman: 1 pending deed | Last bundle 6 hours and 14 minutes ago | 1 unconfirmed bundle

07:35:25 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imagine if, e.g., the 'golden gate' bridge had been built by a retarded child. out of match sticks.

07:35:29 asciilifeform: and it were still in use.

07:35:39 punkman: speaking of shitty code, thing's stuck again

07:35:50 mircea_popescu: http://i.imgur.com/RUvwvFk.gif

07:36:50 decimation: it seems to come down to a question of economics, it's generally cheaper to pay a master craftsman to labor over one item, but if one is building thousands it is worth the start-up cost of the robots

07:36:50 asciilifeform: decimation: except that none of this conceptually even applies to a computer program.

07:36:50 decimation: unfortunately no

07:36:50 decimation: one can imagine the software craftsman being aided by tools (likely of his own making)

07:37:01 decimation: but the idea of 'mass production software' is nonsensical

07:37:10 thestringpuller: !up fivezerotwo

07:39:14 mircea_popescu: this "ctrl-c at console" business is so... hm. primitive.

07:39:18 mircea_popescu: in the positive sense of that term.

07:39:39 punkman: :)

07:39:42 asciilifeform: like a death certificate that reads 'stopped breathing'

07:39:53 mircea_popescu: nah, more like a hmm....

07:40:25 punkman: so electrum is blocking forever when I try to send a tx, then the tx sending thread gets stuck

07:40:54 mircea_popescu: nah, more like a retarded athlete who, after a majorly incredible game where his team won very closely or lost very closely is like

07:40:59 mircea_popescu: "well... we lost"

07:41:03 mircea_popescu: myeah dude.

07:42:14 thestringpuller: $conference

07:42:15 empyex: thestringpuller: Next conference starts in 5 months and 2 days. Estimated cost today: 3.31292039 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )

07:42:53 asciilifeform: re: top hats: i vaguely recall that the planet lost the capacity to make toothpicks for a few months at some point in '09 (?)

07:43:22 asciilifeform: chicom firm cornered the market, the story went, to the point of total monopoly - then went bust

07:43:32 RagnarDanneskjol: punkman i think eventually you're gonna ahve to ditch electrum and run a daemon - these issues are somewhat known and why deedbot 1.0 replaced it w/ api

07:43:33 asciilifeform: perhaps i dreamed all of this.

07:44:04 punkman: RagnarDanneskjol: oh deedbot1.0 tried to use electrum?

07:44:09 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Clam one of yours?

07:44:09 RagnarDanneskjol: yes

07:44:19 RagnarDanneskjol: went through several versions

07:44:38 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo sorry ?

07:44:41 RagnarDanneskjol: the last one actually works perfectly fine - just was on unsecure server

07:44:53 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: From the gif where it did the salt licking

07:44:57 punkman: RagnarDanneskjol: well it didn't actually verify deeds

07:45:12 asciilifeform: salt?!

07:45:26 RagnarDanneskjol: how's that?

07:45:45 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ah no, bounty of teh internets.

07:45:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. salt.

07:46:17 *: asciilifeform wanders off to consider this.

07:47:02 fivezerotwo: thanks thestringpuller

07:54:12 mircea_popescu: "This muddle finally hurts those following in the researcher's path. Long after he has his Ph.D. or his tenure, inquiring students will be put off by the document he has left behind. He seems to have solved everything already, so the report says, yet there is no tangible evidence of it besides the report itself."

07:54:14 mircea_popescu: oh brother...

07:54:39 notary: Confirmed bundle 1NUkX9oL with 1 deed | http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/bundle/1NUkX9oLgWDpzWanrsxKdgUqs7JaRUKG4u

07:55:39 BingoBoingo: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/11/polygraph-com-owner-accused-of-training-customers-to-beat-the-polygraph/

07:56:39 mircea_popescu: this is actually the fundamental problem with western academia. the self-licking icecreamcones problem is just a convenient frosting over this, but the point remains that even should that matter be solved, as it trivially would be solved - by say a stalin, which is always cheap

07:56:39 mircea_popescu: nevertheless academia would STILL be fundamentally broken to the point of complete dysfunction.

08:11:33 RagnarDanneskjol: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2660293

08:12:34 RagnarDanneskjol: [Founding Digital Currency on Secure Computation]

08:17:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23272 @ 0.00042858 = 9.9739 BTC [-]

08:26:04 cazalla: RagnarDanneskjol, meh not promoting something that thinks "When a user wants to create an address, the user provides her identity to an IVS. The IVS checks that the provided identity is the identity of a real person who can be located and be accountable if illegal activity is detected, similar to existing Bitcoin payment systems such as Coinbase." is a good idea

08:27:38 RagnarDanneskjol: they have some lame and some rather novel ideas in there

08:29:48 notary: Confirmed bundle 1MH7Ri8j with 1 deed | http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/bundle/1MH7Ri8jmVKWouMdUijZQoH4hsZQb2txq2

08:34:07 Adlai: you wouldn't say that militaries are still churning out pilot plants, but the automation/control balance of piloting itself has shifted?

08:34:48 Adlai: (that was re: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#923619 )

08:34:48 assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 07:32:47; asciilifeform: ultimately, there is no factory that churns out pilot plants

08:50:44 RagnarDanneskjol: lols http://open.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/13/embracing-https/?_r=2

08:55:04 RagnarDanneskjol: !up Vexual

09:00:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36210 @ 0.00042725 = 15.4707 BTC [-] {2}

09:01:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23040 @ 0.00042362 = 9.7602 BTC [-]

09:03:10 RagnarDanneskjol: https://www.spark.io/

09:08:41 punkman: RagnarDanneskjol: similar thingie https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11395

09:10:25 Vexual: the sd one is cool, i dont undertand the other thing

09:14:09 Vexual: duodenum?

09:19:19 Vexual: oh yes, just different form factors

09:19:50 Vexual: such is life

09:56:34 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "It appears he's list 5 billion since June 30th" << lost ?

10:06:07 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Probably? Where to fix?

10:06:18 mircea_popescu: your article re buffet

10:06:40 mircea_popescu: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/10/24/buffet-problems/

10:06:40 assbot: Buffet Problems | Bingo Blog

10:07:13 BingoBoingo: Ty, fixed

10:07:57 mircea_popescu: and with that, it is time for ass!

11:01:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48900 @ 0.00043676 = 21.3576 BTC [+]

11:11:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14691 @ 0.00043717 = 6.4225 BTC [+] {2}

11:12:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46809 @ 0.00043868 = 20.5342 BTC [+] {2}

11:46:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15928 @ 0.00044006 = 7.0093 BTC [+] {2}

12:04:00 nubbins`: <mircea_popescu> <undata> if I were russia, I'd wait for the US to go balls deep into the middle east again, and then I'd grab some of the north pole's oil, <<< obviously, you're not russia. <<< dat unfamilairity with arctic sovereignty claims

12:05:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7212 @ 0.00043657 = 3.1485 BTC [-]

12:57:25 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH2] 1000 @ 0.0012 = 1.2 BTC

13:36:03 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 14 @ 0.08636714 = 1.2091 BTC [-] {6}

13:43:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31992 @ 0.00043573 = 13.9399 BTC [-]

13:46:54 BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2maur6/an_open_letter_to_jason_king_of_seans_outpost/cm2l3ae

13:46:58 assbot: SeansOutpost comments on An open letter to Jason King of Sean's Outpost

13:48:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79000 @ 0.0004225 = 33.3775 BTC [-] {3}

13:54:48 nubbins`: :00000000

13:55:17 nubbins`: i never got the "feed the homeless in this guy's city instead of in your own city" thing



13:56:15 assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2QX2KNA.txt )

13:56:15 BingoBoingo: !b 4

13:56:41 BingoBoingo: Seriously though you feed the homeless in someone else's city so they all go there. Pied Piper and shit.

13:57:00 nubbins`: "go"

13:57:07 nubbins`: i live on an island, buddy

13:57:26 nubbins`: nearest "city" is 20k people a 10 hour drive away

13:57:53 nubbins`: anyway, always suspected that guy

13:58:31 nubbins`: Easy Feel-Goods for sale, only $1.25

13:59:31 BingoBoingo: No, easy feel goods are $75 at the massage parlor down by the strip club

14:41:41 xanthyos: http://i.gyazo.com/970002ace57462fba98546820653d316.png << look at the progress bar on an electronic transaction initiated two full days ago. obsolescence.

14:42:52 xanthyos: so coinbase gets 4 full days to abort my purchase, which they will, if the prices goes up, and they won't if it levels or drops. with btc market volatility they have a sure thing

14:43:29 xanthyos: business days, so essentially a full week

14:44:50 xanthyos: using the customer's assumption that banking is a slow process (2 business days) and doubling that hoping they won't notice just to extend their opportunity to abort a sale that's not in their favor

15:00:50 mats_cd03: 08:56:40 <+BingoBoingo> Seriously though you feed the homeless in someone else's city so they all go there. Pied Piper and shit. << aka San Francisco

15:03:32 xanthyos: actually liberal "utopias" like sf have very little accomodations for the poor

15:04:21 xanthyos: as someone who's been homeless i've found it much easier to survive in backwoods towns in minnesota where people are poorer and not politicized

15:04:51 xanthyos: california is a scam state and hollywood has used its media to convince the world that it doesn't suck there, but it really does

15:06:13 mats_cd03: sure. there are still hills of homeless in SF, despite billions spent trying to fix it

15:07:01 xanthyos: SF spends its billions laying asphalt for zig-zaggy roads on their hills, not on the homeless

15:07:08 xanthyos: hills

15:07:14 mats_cd03: http://www.sfchronicle.com/archive/item/A-decade-of-homelessness-Thousands-in-S-F-30431.php << 3k 'supportive housing units'

15:08:16 mats_cd03: "The city spends $165 million a year on homeless services, about half of which funds supportive housing. That’s one of the highest levels of per-capita spending on homelessness of any city in the nation, said Philip Mangano, who served as the nation’s homeless czar under President Bush."

15:08:57 mats_cd03: "... the nation's homeless czar" << lol

15:10:41 xanthyos: so inefficient

15:10:53 xanthyos: someone should take a box cutter to nancy pelosi's plastic mask

15:20:25 The20YearIRCloud: and yet their homelessness problem is still one of the worst in the country

15:21:02 nubbins`: freenode:#bitcoin-otc:fa7a9bfb7a0cda9a3b7302dd46bf9392bd9f7b87f41cecfed6437ddb

15:21:05 nubbins`: i mean.

15:21:08 nubbins`: http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/stephen-harper-at-g20-tells-vladimir-putin-to-get-out-of-ukraine-1.2836382

15:21:09 assbot: Stephen Harper at G20 tells Vladimir Putin to 'get out of Ukraine' - World - CBC News

15:21:22 nubbins`: curious to see what a .ru article about this says :D

15:21:30 nubbins`: "According to MacDonald, Putin did not respond positively. He didn't provide further details."

15:27:09 jurov: ohmy, dat log

15:28:19 jurov: btw, what else can putin do? taking care of the nation is not capable of enacting western definition of lawful order

15:28:34 jurov: despite generations of geletical pool cleansing

15:28:41 jurov: *genetical

15:29:48 jurov: try to go and conquer

15:29:54 jurov: nothing alse make sense

15:31:45 jurov: *nothing else makes sense

15:37:09 jurov: http://sherylcanter.com/wordpress/2010/01/a-science-based-technique-for-seasoning-cast-iron/ << for cast iron jockeys

15:42:40 pete_dushenski: howdy!

15:43:16 pete_dushenski: so coinbase scored another $50 mn

15:44:45 pete_dushenski: also, scoopbot be borkt so...

15:44:45 xanthyos: heh

15:44:50 pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2014/11/12/rape-slavery-and-other-considerations/

15:45:50 pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2014/11/14/terrible-nasty-unfair-evil-no-good-money-and-its-relation-to-net-worth/

15:46:50 nubbins`: cast iron 4 life

15:46:50 pete_dushenski: and no assbot either eh

15:46:50 nubbins`: the guy who runs javaranch got me into cast iron

15:46:52 nubbins`: flaxseed oil!

15:48:56 pete_dushenski: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/us/series-of-secret-service-blunders-eased-way-for-white-house-intruder.html?_r=0 << makes that gasenwagen a lot less threatening of a theory

15:49:00 assbot: Log In - The New York Times

15:49:07 pete_dushenski: incompetence is just so adorable!

15:49:32 pete_dushenski: assbot is too cool for contravex ?

15:49:47 pete_dushenski: fucking bot

15:50:43 pete_dushenski: http://karakullake.blogspot.com/2014/11/assads-31-forms-of-torture.html << from the old school

15:51:14 assbot: Tamerlane's Thoughts: Assad's 31 forms of torture

15:52:45 nubbins`: jurov / urovj i wait for my oil to smoke before putting food in the pan :/

15:52:57 nubbins`: wtf am i supposed to do now!

15:53:05 jurov: repent!

15:53:15 nubbins`: i won't know when the pan is hot enough!

15:53:45 nubbins`: non-scientific take: http://www.richsoil.com/cast-iron.jsp

15:53:46 assbot: How To: Cast Iron Skillet Non-Stick and Lasts a Lifetime

15:54:01 jurov: when cooking with olive oil, i can say by smell it's right temp

15:55:03 pete_dushenski: "the crews that maintain the nation’s 450 intercontinental ballistic missiles had only a single wrench that could attach the nuclear warheads. “They started FedExing the one tool” to three bases spread across the country"

15:55:23 pete_dushenski: that usg is less threatening by the day i tell you

15:57:07 nubbins`: i actually use viscosity as a guide leading up to the smoke point

15:57:46 nubbins`: this linseed thing is a neat idea tho. my 9" cast iron could use a fresh start

15:58:07 nubbins`: it's rough-bottomed, tho, not sure if it's worth such special treatment just ye

16:08:55 asciilifeform: jurov: mr p's response to australia >> http://www.loper-os.org/pub/lenta.html

16:08:55 assbot: lenta

16:10:50 jurov: so why the separatists were so eager to claim it?

16:11:09 asciilifeform: jurov: which ones and where?

16:11:46 asciilifeform: jurov: first i hear of such

16:11:53 jurov: http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-separatist-leader-boasts-downing-plane/25460930.html

16:11:53 assbot: Ukraine Separatist Social Media Site Claims Plane Downing

16:12:53 asciilifeform: jurov: afaik, nazi fake.

16:14:31 jurov: afaik, RT fake

16:15:00 asciilifeform: jurov: this is interestingly reminiscent of orwell's piece on the spanish war.

16:15:05 asciilifeform: jurov: do you remember it ?

16:15:13 jurov: no

16:16:24 jurov: when RT invites amir taaaki as bitcoin expert, it's clear what they are up to

16:16:41 jurov: but when they pull some "dutch expert" it's suddent sacrosanct truth

16:16:47 jurov: *suddenly

16:17:06 *: asciilifeform did not endorse rt as truth machine. but notes that, so far, usa has not denied authenticity of the smoking gun.

16:17:54 jurov: nor has russia denied strelkov's boasts

16:18:28 asciilifeform: jurov: the pronouncement that he lacked the necessary rocket is not a denial ?

16:19:49 jurov: BUK was the name of the rocket, russians have it and the border is non-existing

16:20:40 jurov: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html

16:20:41 assbot: BUK missile launcher shown in Russian separatist stronghold before MH17 crash | Daily Mail Online

16:20:53 jurov: ^ photos of it allegedly operating at the site

16:21:44 jurov: dunno we ever solve this here, it's clear as mud

16:22:07 asciilifeform: the one piece of 'lack of gun' was that a launch is visible and audible for 40km or so around

16:22:17 asciilifeform: and no one, afaik, has fessed up to noticing one.

16:24:10 jurov: how are they so certain it's urk fighter?

16:24:29 jurov: i can easily see russians doing it and placing buk in there as diversion

16:26:05 asciilifeform: jurov: re: spanish: http://orwell.ru/library/essays/Spanish_War/english/esw_1

16:26:06 assbot: George Orwell: Looking back on the Spanish War

16:26:33 BingoBoingo: Fuck it. The Greys did MH-17

16:26:43 asciilifeform: 'I remember saying once to Arthur Koestler, ?History stopped in 1936?, at which he nodded in immediate understanding. We were both thinking of totalitarianism in general, but more particularly of the Spanish civil war. Early in life I have noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper, but in Spain, for the first time, I saw newspaper reports which did not bear any relation to the facts, n

16:26:43 asciilifeform: ot even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie. I saw great battles reported where there had been no fighting, and complete silence where hundreds of men had been killed. I saw troops who had fought bravely denounced as cowards and traitors, and others who had never seen a shot fired hailed as the heroes of imaginary victories; and I saw newspapers in London retailing these lies and eager intellec

16:26:45 asciilifeform: tuals building emotional superstructures over events that had never happened. I saw, in fact, history being written not in terms of what happened but of what ought to have happened according to various ?party lines?.'

16:29:29 BingoBoingo: It's those Alien provacateurs

16:30:29 pete_dushenski: can anyone remember the title of that trilema article where mircea_popescu discloses how much he sold that 5% chunk of mpex for?

16:30:53 pete_dushenski: then number $7mn is stuck in my mind but i can't dig up the article to confirm

16:31:30 *: pete_dushenski has been reading lots of old trilema articles about the early mpex days

16:32:35 pete_dushenski: it's nothing short of incredible to see just how tame mp reads then as opposed to now

16:33:45 pete_dushenski: "I am by no means convinced it is even correct, but merely the suggestion of it has the sort of breathtaking effect sudden abstraction gives. The reason I’m publishing all this is, of course, that I’m interested to hear what others think. Fill me in below."

16:37:18 pete_dushenski: modesty the likes of which would shock a johnny come lately reader

16:44:33 pete_dushenski: https://twitter.com/pete_dushenski/status/533660967549157376

16:44:34 assbot: Hey VCs, where's the $1.5mn funding for nanotube's WoT ? http://t.co/gdmiYpx1FA

16:45:42 jurov: nonotube doesn't want to join bezzlatron?

16:45:54 pete_dushenski: mebbe he does

16:46:05 ben_vulpes: note to self: next time compress the blockchain *before* copying.

16:46:08 pete_dushenski: hard to imagine anyone legimitately asking him

16:46:33 pete_dushenski: https://imgur.com/6HC0yeM << trilema credits: 4 and still no worky!

16:46:34 assbot: imgur: the simple image sharer

16:46:39 ben_vulpes: what would he need the money for, pete_dushenski? embedding contracts in the blockchain?

16:46:50 ben_vulpes: give up, web technology will kill your children.

16:47:06 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes a house with a pool ?

16:47:55 pete_dushenski: i'd personally be quite interested to see what nanotube would do if given a free $1.5mn

16:48:06 ben_vulpes: kinda dodges the question of why would vcs put capital into it.

16:48:55 ben_vulpes: here's my pipedream shartup

16:49:02 ben_vulpes: pretend there's something smart

16:49:04 ben_vulpes: wrap gpg

16:49:07 ben_vulpes: end passwords

16:49:15 ben_vulpes: FIN

16:49:24 ben_vulpes: it doesn't even have a profit model!

16:49:26 ben_vulpes: what could go wrong!?

16:50:37 nubbins`: CIS installed in epson printer. print a file. epson says "it is almost time to replace ink cartridges"

16:50:38 nubbins`: NICE TRY

16:50:59 ben_vulpes: baww

16:51:05 ben_vulpes: piped tar into curl

16:51:11 ben_vulpes: exhausted all memory

16:51:45 nubbins`: heh

16:52:09 ben_vulpes: noob

16:52:12 nubbins`: (CIS = http://imgur.com/5uggnbK )

16:52:12 assbot: imgur: the simple image sharer

16:55:26 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what's an 'end password' ?

16:59:44 ben_vulpes: end is a verb in this context.

17:00:07 nubbins`: google end

17:00:16 asciilifeform: aha

17:00:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what do you have in mind?

17:00:36 ben_vulpes: token decryption.

17:00:48 asciilifeform: gribble-login for everything?

17:00:52 ben_vulpes: mhm.

17:00:55 ben_vulpes: 's the only way.

17:01:32 asciilifeform: why does this need money ?

17:01:48 ben_vulpes: because i need a shartup!

17:01:56 asciilifeform: ahaha lol

17:02:14 ben_vulpes: gotta hire sales people

17:02:16 ben_vulpes: rent an office

17:02:26 ben_vulpes: flip the ponzi a few times

17:03:14 *: asciilifeform thought ben_vulpes already did something of the kind at day job

17:03:40 ben_vulpes: what, run a ponzi?

17:03:45 asciilifeform: not necessarily

17:03:49 asciilifeform: but, some sort of firm

17:04:01 nubbins`: hah

17:04:09 assbot: Last 6 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/374TEEE.txt )

17:04:09 nubbins`: !b 6

17:04:46 ben_vulpes: yes i have a thing

17:04:59 nubbins`: !gettrust assbot Anduck

17:05:06 nubbins`: i mean.

17:05:09 nubbins`: ;;gettrust assbot Anduck

17:05:09 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Anduck!~anduck@unaffiliated/anduck. Trust relationship from user assbot to user Anduck: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 5 via 5 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=Anduck | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Anduck | Rated since: Tue May 8 11:28:43 2012

17:05:10 ben_vulpes: but it's kind of an estes scale thing, and i want a giant tower of hydrocarbons atop which to ride out of this gravity well.

17:05:30 nubbins`: !up Anduck

17:06:23 nubbins`: Anduck, you have L2 trust w/ assbot so you can take advantage of deed system

17:08:26 punkman: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=328849.msg9457267#msg9457267

17:08:27 assbot: Trust system - users with most trust list trust

17:09:49 ben_vulpes: http://bablogs.btcscoop.com/ << not actually a thing?

17:09:50 assbot: #bitcoin-assets blog posts

17:10:17 ben_vulpes: hm nm.

17:12:28 punkman: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=780707

17:12:28 assbot: Forum finances

17:12:43 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes i want a giant tower of hydrocarbons << for some reason i didn't even think you had a car

17:13:52 pete_dushenski: "Taxes and bitcoin, what is this sorcery"

17:14:12 pete_dushenski: heya punkman how goes the punkbot ?

17:14:24 punkman: notary status

17:14:24 notary: punkman: No pending deeds | Last bundle 9 hours and 16 minutes ago

17:14:39 pete_dushenski: ah yes!

17:14:49 punkman: punkbot balance

17:14:49 notary: punkman: Balance at 1LAwrWMbPLLSpt7nkD5Jv1Yf4cwPhD98ny is 0.06251 BTC (0.0 unconfirmed), enough for 568 more bundles.

17:14:56 punkman: well in case someone forgets, both work

17:15:07 pete_dushenski: cool

17:15:24 ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: oh i own one. rarely use it though.

17:15:27 ben_vulpes: preferring to walk and bike.

17:15:38 pete_dushenski: ;;rate punkman 1 maker of notary bot for #b-a deeds

17:15:39 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user punkman has been recorded.

17:16:08 ben_vulpes: but the things that one can do with a car don't really hold a candle to those that can be done with large rockets.

17:16:10 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes a but of course

17:16:13 ben_vulpes: cars don't fly.

17:16:24 pete_dushenski: anymore than bricks

17:16:25 ben_vulpes: planes don't escape the gravity well.

17:16:34 ben_vulpes: ('cept maybe the skylon)

17:16:58 ben_vulpes: adios pete_dushenski, see you another day.

17:17:03 pete_dushenski: meh gravity well is 75% in your own noodle

17:17:07 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes cheers mate

17:29:54 assbot: http://news.rice.edu/2014/11/05/next-for-darpa-autocomplete-for-programmers/

17:30:09 assbot: Next for DARPA: ‘Autocomplete’ for programmers

17:42:27 asciilifeform: autocomplete << lol!

17:42:28 asciilifeform: http://auto-complete.org

17:42:29 assbot: Auto-Complete - An Intelligent auto-completion extension for Emacs

17:42:32 asciilifeform: or even microshit's

17:42:40 asciilifeform: am i missing something?

17:42:50 asciilifeform: or was that article stolen from 'the onion' ?

17:50:24 asciilifeform: http://www.contravex.com/2014/11/04/lets-cut-to-the-chase-is-la-serenissima-a-cult/#comment-4569 << interesting re: pankkake

17:50:25 assbot: Let’s Cut To The Chase, Is La Serenissima A Cult? | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski

17:50:29 asciilifeform: i somehow missed this.

17:51:36 asciilifeform: what was his project (mentioned in the comment) ?

17:53:05 asciilifeform: incidentally - are there other 'retired' #b-a folks?

17:54:05 asciilifeform: is there, somewhere, a smoky bar where they down hard drinks and tell anyone who'll listen how 'it was all a sham11!1!' ?

18:03:42 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform haven't seen thickasthieves in a while either...

18:03:51 pete_dushenski: brb

18:04:22 asciilifeform: ;;seen thickasthieves

18:04:22 gribble: thickasthieves was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 week, 5 days, 2 hours, 47 minutes, and 48 seconds ago: <ThickAsThieves> but you da boss

18:10:41 nubbins`: he hasn't been around as much since he stopped with xbond, neobee, etc

18:12:23 nubbins`: i guess there's no gems left to push 8)

18:13:49 TheNewDeal: is evorhees considered a retired #b-a member?

18:14:04 asciilifeform: not being the shrink for either of these folks, i can't say with certainty, but do have a hypothesis:

18:14:22 asciilifeform: some people don't react well to a (perceived) collapse of fantasy of escape from gravity well.

18:14:53 asciilifeform: this may also explain the disappearance of moiety and a few other folks.

18:15:45 nubbins`: iow, "gentlemen, we shall not be the future elite"?

18:16:05 asciilifeform: not precisely

18:16:25 asciilifeform: they, i suspect, reach a point of thinking 'i can't eat hope'

18:16:51 nubbins`: but they can sure as shit eat crow :D

18:16:54 asciilifeform: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3217750625724755@naggum.net.html

18:16:54 assbot: Re: realistic but short and simple LISP examples? - Naggum cll archive

18:16:57 asciilifeform: ^ naggum on the subject

18:18:27 asciilifeform: 'The whole idea that anything can be so "shared" as to have no value in itself is not a problem if the rest of the world ensures that nobody _is_ starving or needing money. For young people who have parents who pay for them or student grants or loans and basically have yet to figure out that it costs a hell of a lot of money to live in a highly advanced society, this is not such a bad idea. Grow up, graduate,

18:18:27 asciilifeform: marry, start a family, buy a house, have an accident, get seriously ill for a while, or a number of other very expensive things people actually do all the time, and the value of your work starts to get very real and concrete to you, at which point giving away things to be "nice" to some "community" which turns out not to be "nice" _enough_ in return that you will actually stay alive, is no longer an option. Al

18:18:27 asciilifeform: l of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for granted is hard to

18:18:34 asciilifeform: impossible.'

18:19:56 asciilifeform: the funny part is that nobody quit, e.g., a model airplane club, because they realize that it will not make them rich.

18:20:20 asciilifeform: it is precisely the existence of 'success stories' in #b-a that creates the problem (if you will) of nonzero expectations.

18:21:26 nubbins`: there are success stories in here? o.O

18:21:33 TheNewDeal: if Mp wee #1, voorhees was #2, who would you say is number 3 in the success story lineup?

18:21:37 asciilifeform: kako?

18:21:44 nubbins`: lel, i kid.

18:22:21 TheNewDeal: just curious - I'm capable of formatting my own opinions, just want to see how they measure up to others

18:22:35 nubbins`: probably tat, he got rich as fuck

18:22:51 TheNewDeal: but he was mostly riding the coattails, no?

18:23:06 nubbins`: his coins aren't colored as such

18:23:19 TheNewDeal: didn't he run a passthrough that was basically just an additional surcharge passthrough?

18:23:27 nubbins`: several of them

18:23:47 nubbins`: doesn't the corner store just buy flats of pepsi from costco?

18:24:01 TheNewDeal: I don't really consider the owner rich

18:24:05 TheNewDeal: you know?

18:24:13 nubbins`: he had what, two AM passthrus, the SMG passthru, maybe three neobee passthrus?

18:24:35 nubbins`: TheNewDeal sure, but if the owner didn't have to buy a store and now drives around in an escalade...

18:24:49 TheNewDeal: you could call bitcoin harware resellers successful

18:24:56 TheNewDeal: and I'm sure there are some that have made a pretty penny

18:25:01 nubbins`: sure, but in here?

18:25:08 TheNewDeal: but the idea is that it's sustainable

18:25:19 nubbins`: what's success mean in this context anyway? got in early?

18:25:29 nubbins`: in that sense, mp is successful, but so is goat

18:25:36 asciilifeform: 'successful' i'd propose, would be in this context, folks who once had to prostitute themselves for fiat who no longer must, on account of something they worked on in collaboration with the people here.

18:26:01 nubbins`: that's workable

18:26:23 nubbins`: successful as a measure of percent exit from fiat

18:26:38 asciilifeform: well, exit from wage labour

18:26:42 TheNewDeal: ding ding ding

18:27:30 nubbins`: implying wage labour remunerated in btc doesn't fit?

18:27:43 nubbins`: say, a blockchain.info employee

18:27:48 TheNewDeal: correct

18:27:52 TheNewDeal: if they're making peas

18:27:52 nubbins`: makes sense

18:28:17 TheNewDeal: I can just as easily be a fry cook at mcdonalds and change my $100 monthly profits to btc

18:28:26 asciilifeform: i'd imagine i'm not the only one who considers 'success' as implying a total exit from 'don't work a day - don't eat a day'

18:28:48 nubbins`: surely not

18:29:04 nubbins`: worth noting that this definition relies on flow in as well as out

18:29:06 asciilifeform: wage labour is wage labour, whether for usd, btc, or gold dubloons

18:30:47 asciilifeform: example,

18:30:49 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-01-2014#449496

18:30:49 assbot: Logged on 19-01-2014 19:47:07; asciilifeform: getting back to the crapware: most instances you're dealing with a case of 'work 12 hrs. a day to make minim. wage while you sleep.'

18:31:16 nubbins`: "great high pay job" 2 hour highway drive each direction, daily

18:32:52 nubbins`: anyway, i guess under these criteria i'd be considered a success, although i'm admittedly raising an eyebrow myself over this

18:33:13 TheNewDeal: Was working up in Canada a few weeks ago. Business owner claimed that everyone in Canada that wanted to work had a job

18:33:20 nubbins`: tbf a significant portion of my income still (a) is received in fiat and (b) doesn't come from this sphere

18:33:28 asciilifeform: nubbins`: let's say you wanted to close your printery and spend the rest of your days as a taleb-like scholarly man of leisure.

18:33:30 nubbins`: TheNewDeal ehhhhhhhh yes and no.

18:33:31 asciilifeform: nubbins`: could you?

18:33:37 TheNewDeal: did not feel the need to argue the point that no on in their right mind wants to stock shelves at the Canadian superstore at 2am

18:34:03 nubbins`: asciilifeform yeah, fair enough. not quite.

18:34:23 nubbins`: in the next half-decade or so, sure

18:34:32 asciilifeform: nubbins`: that was the 'success' i was theorizing about people being disappointed in not having.

18:34:57 nubbins`: looks pretty naked laid out like that, huh

18:35:25 asciilifeform: i can't claim to have a handle on what ails pankkake et. al.

18:35:39 asciilifeform: this is merely the picture seen through my own 'shit-coloured glasses.'

18:36:28 asciilifeform: i conjecture that it's all a problem of expectations.

18:36:30 nubbins`: i figured it was a combination of the rose tint coming off his glasses, and getting tired of the bellicose rhetoric

18:36:39 asciilifeform: i, for instance, expect to end up slowly dismembered in a cia dungeon.

18:36:49 asciilifeform: every day that this has not yet taken place, i am pleasantly surprised.

18:37:06 TheNewDeal: lel

18:38:02 TheNewDeal: I don't see pankakke's argument considering dumb and evil people in bitcoin

18:38:10 TheNewDeal: isn't the same thing in the bezzle economy?

18:38:34 nubbins`: sure, it's just concentrated more here

18:38:51 nubbins`: bitcoin is a rube funnel

18:39:10 asciilifeform: he may be rehashing an argument made, among other places, in my 'microscope hammer' article.

18:39:33 nubbins`: all these starry-eyeds wandering into a lion's den thinking it's the just the coolest thing

18:39:42 TheNewDeal: linky ascii?

18:39:45 nubbins`: and holy shit you can buy stocks i've always wanted to etc

18:40:01 nubbins`: omg doadj-coin etc

18:40:05 asciilifeform: TheNewDeal: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=939

18:40:06 assbot: Loper OS » Bitcoin, or How to Hammer in Nails with a Microscope.

18:40:08 TheNewDeal: gracias

18:40:15 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: did yo ever watch dexter's lab

18:40:32 asciilifeform: possibly once, on 'youtube'

18:40:41 asciilifeform: don't recall precisely what.

18:40:55 asciilifeform: it was mentioned here on at least one occasion

18:46:09 TheNewDeal: ahhh I've read that one before. On a similar note - does that empty block miner still persist? Haven't seen organofcorti mention it

19:17:06 TheNewDeal: assbots back, simply amazing

19:17:06 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

19:17:13 mircea_popescu: hey there buttboy!

19:17:25 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you know, assbot totally should respond to buttboy

19:18:54 mircea_popescu: in other news : http://pastebin.com/S4fwBbpQ

19:18:55 assbot: Return-path: <dd4bc@outlook.com> Envelope-to: * Delivery-date: Sat, 15 Nov 201 - Pastebin.com

19:19:13 mircea_popescu: and jurov thought HE had issues with whitespace via email. check out this kiddie, 100+ 0x20s

19:22:13 Anduck: .deed

19:22:13 punkbot: Anduck: (deed [url]) -- search [url] for signed deeds and queue them.

19:22:18 Anduck: o

19:22:26 Anduck: .help deed

19:22:26 punkbot: Anduck: (deed [url]) -- search [url] for signed deeds and queue them.

19:22:33 Anduck: fine, fine. dont help me damn ass bot

19:22:40 mircea_popescu: punkman no moar notary ?

19:22:51 mircea_popescu: Anduck one sec ill fish out an example for you.

19:22:54 Anduck: mircea_popescu: does it cost to use deed service?

19:22:57 mircea_popescu: not yet./

19:23:02 mircea_popescu: donation powered so far.

19:23:05 Anduck: alright

19:23:16 Anduck: sounds pretty good as in it doesn't shit the chain

19:23:31 Anduck: at least compared to the others...

19:23:45 mircea_popescu: Anduck 15-11-2014 01:09:45 <nubbins`> .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=eJhsu4D5 << like so.

19:23:53 Anduck: thx

19:23:55 mircea_popescu: yeah it's well designed.

19:24:27 Anduck: well, who holds the database?

19:24:37 Anduck: is it decentralized? it doesnt have to be but it'd be great if it was

19:24:42 mircea_popescu: you can dld your own copy. otherwise, punkman is maintaining the deedbot service.

19:24:53 Anduck: remember the link for copy?

19:25:04 mircea_popescu: shit.

19:25:11 Anduck: i checked deeds site, didnt even see an api

19:25:31 mircea_popescu: it doesn't have an api, but you can get json/rss iirc.

19:25:38 Anduck: mm

19:25:46 Anduck: true

19:26:57 mircea_popescu: punkman i forget, how does one download the bundles ?

19:27:56 punkman: there are links bottom of bundle page

19:28:07 punkman: and code is here https://github.com/extempore/deedbundler

19:28:08 assbot: extempore/deedbundler · GitHub

19:28:13 mircea_popescu: nubbins` THERE ARE NO HUNGRY PEOPLE WHERE I LIVE << lawl.

19:28:47 mircea_popescu: o there you are.

19:29:18 mircea_popescu: so wha' happened to notary ? and can the main address: 1LAwrWMbPLLSpt7nkD5Jv1Yf4cwPhD98ny | contact: punkman@freenode get a count of deeds added in the middle ?

19:30:27 punkman: mircea_popescu: it disconnected and had to use alt name, guess I should set it up to revert to notary

19:30:33 mircea_popescu: xanthyos: so coinbase gets 4 full days to abort my purchase, which they will, if the prices goes up, and they won't if it levels or drops. with btc market volatility they have a sure thing <<< not really, because a) there's not so many people ike you, actually using them and b) the respective 0.2 bitcents or w/e add to about enough to buy me a steak.

19:31:45 Anduck: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CKWWskHB

19:31:45 punkbot: Anduck: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:31:46 mircea_popescu: xanthyos: california is a scam state and hollywood has used its media to convince the world that it doesn't suck there, but it really does <<< this is by design. cute but stupid 17 yo chick from minesota goes to cali to be rich and famous, has to confront the unexpected situation where being homeless there sucks so as to eagerly overcome her education and suck cock.

19:31:51 Anduck: hmm:(

19:31:55 Anduck: .deed add http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CKWWskHB

19:31:55 punkbot: Anduck: Error: 'add' is not a valid http url.

19:31:57 mircea_popescu: if she knew about the knife she perobably wouldn't run there.

19:32:07 mircea_popescu: Anduck no add in the examplke i gave you

19:32:21 Anduck: mircea_popescu: as you saw, i tried without first

19:32:36 mircea_popescu: ah yes.

19:32:41 mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust assbot anduck

19:32:41 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask Anduck!~anduck@unaffiliated/anduck. Trust relationship from user assbot to user anduck: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 5 via 5 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=anduck | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=anduck | Rated since: Tue May 8 11:28:43 2012

19:33:14 mircea_popescu: o.O did you find a bug ?

19:36:05 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/X8aNSdsY

19:36:06 assbot: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, This is deeds.bitcoin-a - Pastebin.com

19:36:06 punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:36:18 nubbins`: it verifies

19:36:22 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=X8aNSdsY

19:36:23 punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:36:27 nubbins`: and the fingerprint matches anduck's

19:36:29 mircea_popescu: nubbins` yup, and it verifies to his correct key.

19:36:31 mircea_popescu: yeah.

19:36:50 mircea_popescu: Anduck we thank you for your test, ye cursed by the gods :)

19:37:12 nubbins`: yeah, interesting.

19:37:27 punkman: yeah good signature indeed, hmm

19:37:31 mircea_popescu: and if anyone wonders wtf, i tried to see what happens if i add a newline at the end.

19:37:40 mircea_popescu: but no dice.

19:38:31 nubbins`: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=krnmUkra

19:38:32 punkbot: nubbins`: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.

19:38:35 *: nubbins` shrugs

19:39:14 nubbins`: something to do with your key or your relationship to someone

19:39:26 nubbins`: punkbot checks trust to assbot?

19:39:34 mircea_popescu: by spec it should.

19:39:44 mircea_popescu: but it objects that the MESSAGE is invalid.

19:40:06 nubbins`: ehh that's just what the error says

19:40:33 Anduck: well

19:40:37 Anduck: my educated guess: newlines problem

19:41:11 mircea_popescu: nubbins`: i won't know when the pan is hot enough! << look at the oil.

19:41:18 mircea_popescu: eventually you will be able to tell, just by looking

19:41:34 mircea_popescu: (your eye does see ir. you just don't mentally see it, but you do see it.

19:41:37 nubbins`: yeah i wait for first wisps of smoke now, but viscosity is a good judge

19:41:47 mircea_popescu: that entire "can't distinguish hot glass from plain glass is bunk. you can, just need to look at it)

19:41:47 nubbins`: as well

19:42:13 nubbins`: Anduck i'm not so sure

19:42:27 nubbins`: i copy/pasted your deed text to my machine, signed it, and it worked

19:42:53 mircea_popescu: wow that's interesting huh

19:43:14 nubbins`: now tbf copypasta has its own newline quirks i'm sure

19:43:23 nubbins`: but i think punkman covered all bases w.r.t. newlines

19:44:04 nubbins`: Anduck try signing a single line of text

19:44:13 punkman: only explanation is the bot doesn't have your key

19:44:23 nubbins`: how does the bot get keys

19:44:36 punkman: fetches from sks

19:44:38 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XKAbVPzW

19:44:39 punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:44:42 mircea_popescu: o.O

19:44:50 mircea_popescu: no. the signature block fucks up something

19:45:02 mircea_popescu: maybe something as idiotic as "one line starts with slash" or w/e.

19:45:02 nubbins`: oh, i just took his original text, not the block

19:45:08 nubbins`: huh

19:45:21 nubbins`: ineresting

19:45:24 nubbins`: +t

19:46:14 nubbins`: Anduck i guess try signing any other message and submitting it

19:46:17 punkman: mircea_popescu: I think problem with that is that it stops at nested END PGP SIGNATURE, instead of the outer one

19:46:32 nubbins`: hmm

19:46:47 punkman: but I remember testing that case

19:46:48 nubbins`: sounds like a regex fix

19:46:50 punkman: guess I didn't

19:47:08 nubbins`: END PGP SIGNATURE-----\n$ or smth

19:47:17 *: nubbins` always has to look that stuff up

19:47:33 mircea_popescu: nubbins` no lol, cuz no \n in spec :D

19:47:56 mircea_popescu: punkman it stops at the commented out one ?

19:48:06 mircea_popescu: ye - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ?

19:48:07 punkman: yeah, I know how to fix that

19:48:14 mircea_popescu: kk

19:48:17 punkman: but why the hell is Anduck's key missing

19:48:30 punkman: should have been there when I bootstrapped pubring

19:48:47 nubbins`: .deed http://pastebin.com/29Ed1j5b

19:48:48 assbot: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESS - Pastebin.com

19:48:48 punkbot: nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:48:48 mircea_popescu: jurov: when cooking with olive oil, i can say by smell it's right temp << also butter yeah.

19:48:56 nubbins`: oops

19:48:58 nubbins`: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=29Ed1j5b

19:48:58 punkbot: nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:49:05 nubbins`: ok yep nesting breaks

19:49:39 nubbins`: still doesnt explain anduck's weirdness

19:49:46 Anduck: ._.

19:49:55 joecool: prob threw finncrypt at it

19:50:00 joecool: breaks everything

19:50:06 nubbins`: Anduck try another deed, would be nice to see if that was a problem with your key or your deed

19:50:18 Anduck: ok

19:50:53 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1i7QYM8g

19:50:54 punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:50:59 mircea_popescu: HA!

19:51:38 Anduck: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=sgyrnSKb

19:51:39 punkbot: Anduck: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:51:43 Anduck: deed ?!??

19:51:50 Anduck: do i need to have this same text somewhere else

19:52:32 nubbins`: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=tuWJ5TrH

19:52:32 punkbot: nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:52:42 nubbins`: haha it's the forward slash at the start of a new line.

19:52:46 mircea_popescu: aha!

19:52:53 mircea_popescu: my intuition!111

19:53:05 Anduck: heh

19:53:08 Anduck: confirm it.

19:53:17 mircea_popescu: now we throw eggs at punkman :D

19:53:19 nubbins`: heh

19:53:39 nubbins`: Anduck you could probably just add a whitespace char to your original text, sign it, it'll work

19:54:00 mircea_popescu: nubbins` clearsign doesn't produce the same signature on the same text btw.

19:54:02 Anduck: let's see

19:54:08 nubbins`: o no?

19:54:16 nubbins`: well til

19:54:25 mircea_popescu: think about it.

19:54:32 mircea_popescu: if it did, your messages would be brittle.

19:55:54 nubbins`: i'm still only functionally literate wrt pgp

19:56:06 mircea_popescu: jurov: when RT invites amir taaaki as bitcoin expert, it's clear what they are up to, but when they pull some "dutch expert" it's suddent sacrosanct truth <<< lol he got you there asciilifeform

19:56:07 Anduck: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JZQ0PkwU

19:56:07 punkbot: Anduck: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:56:25 mircea_popescu: bwhahaha

19:57:07 Anduck: i guess

19:57:10 Anduck: hmm..

19:57:13 nubbins`: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=vGkqhFr0

19:57:14 punkbot: nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:57:20 nubbins`: o.O

19:57:41 Anduck: .deed anduck.net/ducktest.txt

19:57:42 punkbot: Anduck: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:57:45 nubbins`: looks like it's expecting a very limited charset for that first char

19:58:02 mircea_popescu: apparently.

19:58:48 punkbot: Confirmed bundle 13u9WbT7 with 1 deed | http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/bundle/13u9WbT7N8WeBAH2kKrvkrPESenDMBpLMU

19:58:55 nubbins`: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=sPzaFq8s

19:58:55 punkman: I think I may have borked permissions of gpg dir just now

19:58:55 punkbot: nubbins`: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

19:59:02 nubbins`: WHAT.

19:59:15 nubbins`: |0|

20:01:08 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski: can anyone remember the title of that trilema article where mircea_popescu discloses how much he sold that 5% chunk of mpex for? << http://trilema.com/2013/smpoe-takes-strategic-investor/ ?

20:01:08 assbot: S.MPOE takes strategic investor pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

20:01:37 mircea_popescu: !up supay

20:03:34 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski: modesty the likes of which would shock a johnny come lately reader << But within that basic framework there are many subtle variations, only discernable to an acute observer, that reflect the many moods, the many shades, the many sides of MP!

20:03:37 mircea_popescu: (this is morning mist)

20:06:23 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski:"where's the $1.5mn funding for nanotube's WoT" << perhaps you don';t understand what "a protocol for decentralized and password-less authentication" means.

20:07:55 mircea_popescu: nubbins`: (CIS = http://imgur.com/5uggnbK ) <<< lawl.

20:07:56 assbot: imgur: the simple image sharer

20:09:26 punkman: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JZQ0PkwU

20:09:27 assbot: Pastebin.com Unknown Paste ID

20:09:27 punkbot: punkman: Error fetching URL: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=JZQ0PkwU (HTTP Error 404: Not Found)

20:09:49 punkman: .deed http://anduck.net/ducktest.txt

20:09:49 punkbot: punkman: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.

20:10:02 mircea_popescu: | 34 | Gavin Andresen | 0 | << not in forum trust list ; | 33 | OgNasty | 1 | << in forum default trust list.

20:10:03 punkman: yeah your key was missing for some reason

20:10:09 mircea_popescu: so much lulz.

20:11:16 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=X8aNSdsY

20:11:17 punkbot: mircea_popescu: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.

20:11:32 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XKAbVPzW

20:11:32 punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

20:11:53 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=X8aNSdsY

20:11:53 punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: dupe)

20:11:59 mircea_popescu: so... wait.

20:12:15 mircea_popescu: ah nm.

20:12:36 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1i7QYM8g

20:12:37 punkbot: mircea_popescu: Queued 1 valid deed for next bundle.

20:12:52 mircea_popescu: punkbot deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XKAbVPzW

20:12:52 punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

20:13:11 mircea_popescu: so basically only http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=XKAbVPzW is still weird.

20:13:43 punkman: will put that on todo list

20:14:48 mircea_popescu: - Expenses: 1505 (1257 Slickage, the rest mostly mods) << according to theymos, tardstalk has spent half a million dollars to one million this year.

20:16:18 punkman: on another message he says he's spent $350k on Slickage

20:16:20 punkman: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=451893.0;all

20:16:20 assbot: LEAKED - Latest status on forum software

20:16:49 mircea_popescu: what's slickage ?

20:17:00 punkman: some web developers

20:17:13 mircea_popescu: someone paid 350k to "web developers" ?

20:17:17 mircea_popescu: lmao

20:17:20 mircea_popescu: ;;rated theymos

20:17:21 gribble: You have not yet rated user theymos

20:18:21 punkman: ;;rate thermos -5

20:18:21 gribble: Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.

20:18:58 mircea_popescu: ;;rate theymos -10 defrauded the tardstalk community by throwing ~half a million dollars worth of BTC at some obscure service provider for kickbacks. a lenghty history of fraudulent behaviour, http://trilema.com/2012/scammer-tag-nefario-theymos-others-known-and-unknown/

20:18:58 assbot: Scammer tag : Nefario, theymos, others known and unknown pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

20:18:59 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of -10 for user theymos has been recorded.

20:20:57 punkman: well don't know if that quote is real

20:21:07 punkman: but either way

20:21:11 mircea_popescu: he does mention the name in his "report"

20:21:25 mircea_popescu: http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/slickage-studios << this thing. it never had 10k incoming in its lifetime.

20:21:26 assbot: Slickage Studios | CrunchBase

20:21:37 punkman: "let's make our own forum software, compete with SMF"

20:21:52 punkman: in node.js no less

20:22:06 mircea_popescu: unlike the SEC, MP actually is tough on fraud.

20:22:17 *: mircea_popescu waves @maryjo

20:23:41 jurov: in node? hahahahaha

20:23:56 mircea_popescu: jurov you don't understand how the nodes work!

20:23:59 punkman: https://github.com/slickage/epochtalk

20:24:00 assbot: slickage/epochtalk · GitHub

20:24:14 jurov: i'm laughing because i do understand a bit

20:24:37 punkman: seems no commits since June

20:24:39 mircea_popescu: 2 contributors << lol.

20:24:41 *: jurov looks forward to Math.random pwnage

20:24:50 mircea_popescu: so basically the 1-10 man dev studio is exactly one guy.

20:25:02 punkman: and more derpage https://github.com/slickage/adness https://github.com/slickage/baron

20:25:03 assbot: slickage/adness · GitHub

20:25:03 assbot: slickage/baron · GitHub

20:28:40 punkman: oh my bad they are still developing https://github.com/epochtalk/core

20:28:40 assbot: epochtalk/core · GitHub

20:29:31 mircea_popescu: adding core to something makes it better

20:29:37 mircea_popescu: like, punk was dead, but then punkcore!

20:32:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: what was his project (mentioned in the comment) ? <<< you perhaps recall i said at conference i want two things made, an advertising service and a jobs board. we had some initial discussions about it, we ran into a bunch of conceptual difficulties about how exactly to handle the job descriptions/contractual enforcement, which turned out a much more complex task than originally imagined, last was "we

20:32:53 mircea_popescu: we'll have to think about this some more" and it's the last i heard from him on the topic. or in general, really. that was back in may.

20:34:04 mircea_popescu: anyway, the job board still needs to be made because this system where i drop something in chat and someone either happens to be here or happens to see it in logs is perhaps not optimal.

20:34:28 mircea_popescu: on the other hand, it does provide proper incentive for noobs to read the thing, much to their benefit even if "they don't want to, because they know better", so whatevs.

20:36:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: is there, somewhere, a smoky bar where they down hard drinks and tell anyone who'll listen how 'it was all a sham11!1!' ? << not afaik, tho i'd like to have a hard drink myself. tho i imagine that'd ruin it huh.

20:37:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: this may also explain the disappearance of moiety and a few other folks. <<< it's not a bad theory in any sense. got any policy proposals based on it ?

20:39:10 punkman: a bunch of conceptual difficulties about how exactly to handle the job descriptions/contractual enforcement << interesting in hearing some of those

20:39:15 punkman: *interested

20:39:34 mircea_popescu: punkman you familiar with the problems surrounding bitbet bets resolution ?

20:39:43 mircea_popescu: they [used to] spill out into here with some regularity.

20:39:51 punkman: well some of them at least

20:40:09 mircea_popescu: right. what do words "mean" ? and especially, what do contracts OBVIOUSLY mean.

20:40:37 mircea_popescu: this is not a trivial problem in any sense : http://trilema.com/2013/our-emperor-deliver-us/

20:40:37 assbot: Our Emperor, deliver us. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

20:40:43 mircea_popescu: "In support of their argument that the Agreement preserves liability only for malicious breaches, defendants argue that the word ?willful? would be unnecessary unless it meant ?malicious.? There is no reason to limit liability to breaches that are intentional, they claim, because any breach of this Agreement would be intentional??heavily counseled parties to mega-mergers do not breach merger agreements out

20:40:43 mircea_popescu: of inadvertence, negligence, or mistake.? As a factual matter, this claim is questionable. It could just as well be said that heavily counseled parties to mega-mergers do not sign merger agreements containing glaringly ambiguous terms that lead to avoidable litigation?but here we are."

20:42:10 mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel

20:42:19 gabriel_laddel: does anyone with experience with either gentoo or funtoo care to share their impression(s) of the projects? I'm interested in which group of devs is more intelligent, sane, etc.

20:42:31 Anduck: punkman: what was the error?

20:42:42 mircea_popescu: gentoo is well established, and currently my recommendation for noobs looking at linux.

20:42:46 punkman: Anduck: didn't have your key for some reason

20:43:16 mircea_popescu: Anduck therewas also an unrelated issue discovered, regarding first character on a line, so tyvm.

20:43:40 punkman: no slash character theory was silly

20:44:00 punkman: but problem with nested sigs

20:44:10 mircea_popescu: punkman no, because it failed on the test bundle above.

20:44:31 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#924229

20:44:31 assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 20:12:52; punkbot: mircea_popescu: No valid deeds found, try again. Errors: (msg1: invalid)

20:44:50 mircea_popescu: meh wait, wrong one.

20:46:06 mircea_popescu: ah yes right you are, nm.

20:50:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: The whole idea that anything can be so "shared" as to have no value in itself is not a problem if the rest of the world ensures that nobody _is_ starving or needing money. <<< this is nonsense anyway. money is always needed, this is a scaling problem. average rat living in a hole in the middle east linking his pretenses to humanity to his possesion of an old cellphone someone lost may think ben_vulpes' l

20:50:41 mircea_popescu: ife is the end of want, having a wife and a house in the amerca!!!

20:50:50 mircea_popescu: however, ben himself wants a tower of hydrocarbons.

20:50:56 mircea_popescu: and if he gets it, he'll want something else.

20:51:15 mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "not needing money" except for coma patients.

20:52:29 mircea_popescu: wanting is the sign of intellectual health, just like erections are the sign of reproductive health. if you're lying down with teh nekkid gals and get no pang to trash them around it doesn't mean you reached nirvana, it just means you're not long for this world.

20:52:59 punkman: http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/list-keys.txt plenty of 1024 keys

20:53:02 jurov: didn't we solve a yesterday's conundrum about nature of life?

20:53:24 jurov: ie.e life can be defined as anything that needs money

20:53:38 jurov: or maybe intelligent life...

20:54:03 mircea_popescu: kik

20:54:24 mircea_popescu: punkman put 1024 keys together with the irc nicks so i can send them a later tell ?

20:55:27 Anduck: are 1024s yet bad?

20:56:04 mircea_popescu: best move on, yeah.

20:56:39 Anduck: well yup

20:59:18 punkbot: Confirmed bundle 1EWUaXVR with 3 deeds | http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/bundle/1EWUaXVRx4Mm94Q9m6J3BRN3TEjRcnmmuw

21:03:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: wage labour is wage labour, whether for usd, btc, or gold dubloons <<< this is an iffy proposition.

21:03:35 mircea_popescu: "wage labour" on fain, on a voluntary basis (internet work, add links, vote on links, comments -> collect points -> take out btc) had average monthly payments well over 1 btc. AVERAGE.

21:04:05 mircea_popescu: plenty of people took out 100 btc in one month. back then this was you know, a few hundred bucks, "wage".

21:04:18 mircea_popescu: they probably sold it, of course, but if they did not, they have a lot more liquid btc than say goat.

21:04:34 mircea_popescu: or any of the other talented folk that got in early, got out early.

21:05:29 mircea_popescu: so wage for btc is not unlike wage for stock warrants, ie, typical start-up work.

21:06:26 mircea_popescu: in any case : i do not exactly believe b-a is intended for the workaday people. let them put a decade in, build themselve financially to the position where they can participate in a start-up, and intellectually to the position where they actually aren't quite AS fucktarded as the average 20something.

21:06:59 mircea_popescu: because no, i don't credit for a minute this theory whereby the 20yo male is the be-all end-all hope-and-pride of humanity.

21:07:08 mircea_popescu: bitcoin isn't college sports.

21:10:33 mircea_popescu: TheNewDeal: did not feel the need to argue the point that no on in their right mind wants to stock shelves at the Canadian superstore at 2am <<< why should they get a choice ?

21:10:56 mircea_popescu: obviously if that's the only job they can get they AREN'T in their right mind. so why should their unright mind get an option as to what it wants to do ?

21:11:15 mircea_popescu: not everyone's brain works, even if everyone's brain THINKS it does.

21:15:10 mircea_popescu: nubbins`: getting tired of the bellicose rhetoric << "why can't we all just get along" ?

21:15:15 mircea_popescu: fuck me, i dun wanna get along with idiots.

21:15:25 mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of why or wherefore. i just do not wish to.

21:17:21 mircea_popescu: i suppose the one true source of trolling is exactly that. ironically enough, pankake was orignally selling himself as a troll for hire iirc.

21:24:14 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell peterl http://bablogs.btcscoop.com/ << seems empty ?

21:24:15 assbot: #bitcoin-assets blog posts

21:24:15 gribble: The operation succeeded.

21:25:38 Anduck: mircea_popescu: remember, the people who you call 'idiots' may be living a happier life than you

21:25:44 Anduck: so, are they idiots after all in that sense

21:25:49 mircea_popescu: yes.

21:26:18 mircea_popescu: im sure most of the cattle that i'm going to eat in my lifetime has also lived a pretty happy life,

21:26:22 mircea_popescu: according ot its own standards.

21:26:34 mircea_popescu: the notion that cattle gets to enact standards of happiness is beyond ridoinculous.

21:29:27 Anduck: sure but its funny that many really are happy

21:29:30 Anduck: they also know it

21:29:48 mircea_popescu: so good for em.

21:30:17 mircea_popescu: krugman prolly "really is an economist", at least if you ask him.

21:31:08 Anduck: xD

21:31:14 Anduck: oh, what do ya think of him

21:31:20 Anduck: well, his bitcoin speech

21:32:02 mircea_popescu: Anduck you mean http://trilema.com/2014/this-is-how-much-i-rule-today/ ?

21:32:02 assbot: This is how much I rule (today) pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

21:32:27 Anduck: i guess i cant read that one

21:32:31 Anduck: paywall i see =(

21:34:58 mircea_popescu: funny lol. guy from the public went up to bernadotte, after wagram, "o, what did you think of the archduke's order of battle!"

21:35:03 mircea_popescu: i think it sucked, lol.

21:35:39 Anduck: hmm

21:36:02 Anduck: mircea_popescu: you know the new monero/bitcoin rpg stuff by rpietila?

21:36:13 mircea_popescu: vaguely.

21:36:53 Anduck: thoughts? will you attend

21:37:11 mircea_popescu: i will not attend.

21:37:46 Anduck: ok. as it's question hour: thoughts about bitcoin short term (1-2 years) valuation?

21:38:29 Anduck: it's good to see how long bitcoiners see these last years of development

21:38:33 *: mircea_popescu shrugs.

21:38:51 mircea_popescu: you really need to go read the logs.

21:39:27 Anduck: there's too much of logs.

21:39:35 Anduck: seriously, even you wouldn't

21:40:10 mircea_popescu: i actually do. i imagine you have nfi idea what wagram is, either, but this gives you no pause, because you're happy without, right ?

21:40:48 Anduck: not relevant but yes i've zero idea of what a wagram is

21:41:09 mircea_popescu: right. well, carry on but if possible quietly.

21:41:16 Anduck: hehe

21:42:00 Anduck: so you would value my speech here if i knew what a wagram is?

21:44:11 Anduck: good. as expected

21:44:24 Anduck: just remember: this is not how the world was built

21:45:33 mircea_popescu: the world was not built by ignorant twerps. your ideas about "the world" are about as well formed as your ideas about "wagram". both are meaningless symbols to you. about one, you arbitrarily delude yourself you have something to say.

21:46:09 Anduck: fine

21:46:19 Anduck: i don't agree but im fine with it

21:46:33 mircea_popescu: now stfu and go read the logs.

21:47:00 Anduck: i guess i already stated i won't read the logs because there's too much and i've got better ways to find out what i want to find out =)

21:47:32 Anduck: doesn't make me ignorant twerp, or does it?

21:47:36 mircea_popescu: yeah, it does.

21:47:39 RagnarDanneskjol: yes it does

21:47:51 Anduck: please, give me a third "yes it does"

21:49:36 mircea_popescu: kids, you know ? tries to engage its mother on its own terms (cries). mother doesn't go for it. kid... INSISTS!!! because totally, if you ignore everything and just repeat your thing... well.. that's happiness innit.

21:52:54 *: undata wonders whether gribble or freenode itself is lagging today

21:53:26 mircea_popescu: freenode's been having some issues.

21:53:50 undata: ah

21:54:49 Anduck: hopefully people here think clearly :)

21:57:16 mircea_popescu: !up sdffsd

21:58:18 mircea_popescu: punkbot status

21:58:18 punkbot: mircea_popescu: No pending deeds | Last bundle 1 hour and 9 minutes ago

22:01:01 mircea_popescu: so anyone know this Khalahan Henkh fellow ?

22:01:37 assbot: http://arrakis.cs.washington.edu

22:01:37 sdffsd: Mircea, I can't access mpex.co, what's going on?

22:01:44 assbot: Arrakis | The Operating System is the Control Plane

22:02:10 mircea_popescu: $proxies

22:02:47 empyex: mircea_popescu: Proxies: mpex.biz mpex.co mpex.bz mpex.coinbr.com mpex.ws Current MPEx GPG-Key-ID: 02DD2D91

22:03:35 mircea_popescu: sdffsd nothing ?

22:03:57 mircea_popescu: anyway, if you have trouble with websites use the irc bots.

22:04:18 mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/the-many-ways-available-for-talking-to-mpex/

22:04:19 assbot: The many ways available for talking to MPEx pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

22:04:57 empyex: mircea_popescu: MPEx-Status: mpex.biz (116 milliseconds), mpex.bz (131 milliseconds), mpex.ws (350 milliseconds), mpex.coinbr.com (1681 milliseconds), mpex.co (error)

22:04:59 empyex: mircea_popescu: Health-Indicators: Homepage: √ MK Depth JSON: √ VWAP JSON: √

22:05:41 mircea_popescu: awww

22:53:09 mircea_popescu: lol fucking idiot,

22:55:13 mircea_popescu: ::later tell sdffsd nobody ever told you tor is not actually safe ? lol.

22:55:46 kakobrekla: accidentally found another bitcoin web hosting http://bitcoinwebhosting.net

22:55:47 assbot: Bitcoin Dedicated Servers, DDoS Protection, Anonymous VPS

22:55:58 mircea_popescu: who;s running it ?

22:56:28 kakobrekla: 1712 Pioneer Avenue Ste 1774

22:56:29 kakobrekla: Cheyenne, Wyoming 82001

22:57:02 kakobrekla: ;;gettrust 1712 Pioneer Avenue Ste 1774

22:57:02 gribble: (gettrust [<sourcenick>] <destnick>) -- Get trust paths for <destnick>, starting from <sourcenick>. If <sourcenick> is not supplied, your own nick is used as the source. See http://wiki.bitcoin-otc.com/wiki/OTC_Rating_System#Notes_about_gettrust

22:57:13 kakobrekla: as i suspected

23:03:45 mircea_popescu: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/thoughts-and-concerns-about-operation-onymous

23:03:47 assbot: Thoughts and Concerns about Operation Onymous | The Tor Blog

23:03:58 mircea_popescu: "Recently it was announced that a coalition of government agencies took control of many Tor hidden services. We were as surprised as most of you."

23:04:20 mircea_popescu: what the next line should be ? "we suck, and we're stepping down. sorry we couldn't do what we wanted to."

23:04:25 mircea_popescu: what the next line actually is ? " Unfortunately, we have very little information about how this was accomplished, but we do have some thoughts which we want to share."

23:04:33 mircea_popescu: something fundamentally broken with these people's heads.

23:06:56 mircea_popescu: what do they instead claim ? "Bitcoin deanonymization"

23:07:22 mircea_popescu: yeah, that's right. USG pseudo-secrecy agency used to fuck up idiots stupid enough to trust it now claims "it was bitcoin"

23:07:30 mircea_popescu: im sure it was, heh.

23:08:02 punkman: hah https://github.com/mapmeld/profanity65#profanity65

23:08:03 assbot: mapmeld/profanity65 · GitHub

23:08:40 mircea_popescu: "Your comment has been queued for moderation by site administrators and will be published after approval."

23:08:42 mircea_popescu: im sure it will be.

23:10:43 undata: punkman: that's incredible

23:11:04 undata: of note, "nsa-hugging"

23:11:06 undata: yes

23:22:10 mircea_popescu: sooo, buenos aires had this gay pride parade today.

23:22:33 mircea_popescu: they closed off a major street downtown (rivadavia) and put a scene up and everything in front of the cogress building

23:22:47 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the parade consisted of like... i dunno, five people ? six ?

23:22:52 mircea_popescu: i doubt total participation was 100 heads.

23:32:37 jurov: interesting, last year they report over 100 thousand ppl

23:35:31 mircea_popescu: i saw it with own eyes, about one guy every three minutes or something

23:35:40 mircea_popescu: maybe it's early.

23:35:58 jurov: aparently it was almost banned

23:36:13 mircea_popescu: i dunno how banned it'd be if the city closed down a major street for it.

23:38:01 jurov: looks like not really banned only asked a fee for the security

23:38:15 jurov: and there is something about public indecent conduct

23:39:28 jurov: En ese fallo se responsabilizo por delitos comunes exclusivamente a la Comunidad Homosexual Argentina (CHA) y se la condenó a pagar $450.000.- por un delito ocurrido en la vereda de la plaza donde se realizaba un acto.

23:41:07 mircea_popescu: CHA lol. teh buttfuck foundation! it's a thing.

23:41:50 mircea_popescu: anyway, they have very right-wing ideas about dispensing justice here.

23:53:55 mircea_popescu: http://ctrlq.org/files/screenshots/6a630eefd44705f3ead4d3e81658fa9b.png <<< apparently they managed to lose some data

23:53:57 assbot: Digital Inspiration