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Transcript for 17-01-2015, 1305 lines:

00:00:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you got a link to that hacking course thing that was crypto oriented ?

00:00:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can remember more specific ?

00:00:21 mircea_popescu: i been looking for it magically can't find it. the one that had the rsa break in the last fascicle

00:01:01 artifexd: Book purchased.

00:01:08 asciilifeform: !s pollard rho

00:01:08 assbot: 1 results for 'pollard rho' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pollard+rho

00:01:22 asciilifeform: damn, thought it might have been in that thread

00:01:41 mircea_popescu: nono it was a course, you were supposed to email your results

00:01:56 asciilifeform: hm

00:02:01 asciilifeform: i definitely remember that this existed.

00:02:04 artifexd: http://cryptopals.com/

00:02:05 assbot: The Matasano Crypto Challenges ... ( http://bit.ly/1E8npC3 )

00:02:12 asciilifeform: artifexd found it.

00:02:26 mircea_popescu: there we go!

00:02:27 asciilifeform: ty

00:02:43 artifexd: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-08-2014#792968

00:02:43 assbot: Logged on 12-08-2014 15:50:28; artifexd: http://cryptopals.com/ <- some nice lessons teaching how crypto works, how to attack it, and how easy it is to screw it up

00:02:52 mircea_popescu: stupid fucking name. anyway, towards the end there's some good foundational stuff. perhaps not directly useful for the purpose at hand, but very good to get your head swiveled in the right position

00:02:57 mircea_popescu: re crypto vulnerability.

00:03:09 mircea_popescu: lol it was HIS link ?

00:03:10 mircea_popescu: ahjahaha

00:03:19 asciilifeform: bleichenbacher's oracle, in particular

00:04:04 artifexd: I will pause coding to read "Malicious Crypto" and finish the course. I'll report back when I'm done and made a decision re: golang's crypto libraries.

00:08:27 asciilifeform: http://repo.hackerzvoice.net/depot_madchat/vxdevl/avtech/Malicious%20Cryptography%20-%20Exposing%20Cryptovirology.pdf

00:08:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1E8ol9L )

00:08:29 asciilifeform: ^ w4r3z

00:09:26 asciilifeform: http://repo.hackerzvoice.net/depot_madchat/vxdevl/avtech << many classic and otherwise interesting pieces

00:09:27 assbot: Index of /depot_madchat/vxdevl/avtech ... ( http://bit.ly/1E8oslC )

00:10:38 asciilifeform: http://repo.hackerzvoice.net/depot_madchat/vxdevl/interviews << interviews with old-school crapware artists, somewhat interesting zoology

00:10:39 assbot: Index of /depot_madchat/vxdevl/interviews ... ( http://bit.ly/1E8ozxA )

00:11:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40600 @ 0.00044297 = 17.9846 BTC [-] {2}

00:11:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50187 @ 0.00044223 = 22.1942 BTC [-] {4}

00:12:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47000 @ 0.00043747 = 20.5611 BTC [-] {5}

00:12:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37413 @ 0.00043704 = 16.351 BTC [-] {3}

00:17:24 asciilifeform: ';Urko is a dog. Urko is one of my best friends. Urko is a fantastic dog becoz sometimes..... Urko SPEAKS! Urko is very timid and only speaks to me...and not always...urko only speaks when both,urko and me,we start to smoke that rare cigarretes that urko has. Then urko start to speak a lot of :) and we stay all night speaking,smoking and seeing films orplaying trivial pursuit,or coding,or doing a lot of things :)'

00:17:42 asciilifeform: (source: http://repo.hackerzvoice.net/depot_madchat/vxdevl/vxsrc/Win32/win32.Urk0/win32.Urk0.asm )

00:17:43 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1uauQsn )

00:18:02 asciilifeform: next time contemplating the raving insanity of 'reddit' bitcoin users, etc. - read these.

00:19:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34624 @ 0.00043262 = 14.979 BTC [-] {2}

00:19:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48500 @ 0.0004291 = 20.8114 BTC [-] {4}

00:20:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13876 @ 0.00042036 = 5.8329 BTC [-] {2}

00:26:28 *: asciilifeform often wonders what happened to those people.

00:28:03 mircea_popescu: sounds like that much acid.

00:28:29 asciilifeform: evidently not too much acid, because - they ran.

00:28:58 mircea_popescu: ballmer's constant, but for acid.

00:29:26 asciilifeform: where are these kids now.

00:29:30 asciilifeform: can't all be dead.

00:30:31 mircea_popescu: sheeit!

00:43:24 kakobrekla: anyway, the wot has been forked into assbot and is running now

00:43:41 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: congrats !

00:43:52 mircea_popescu: yay

00:43:54 kakobrekla: that means we are no longer depended on gribble

00:44:09 kakobrekla: and some changes have been made.

00:44:10 asciilifeform: are these synchro-forks or fork-forks ?

00:44:24 kakobrekla: as ascii pointe out, session is bad so there is no more that.

00:44:32 kakobrekla: each auth worth command gets own otp

00:44:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the idea is to import gribble's wot but mark it as gribble's, and allow others to import assbot's wot.

00:44:37 kakobrekla: worthy*

00:44:55 mircea_popescu: i'll get on nano's case to see if he's willing to put it all into gribble.

00:45:00 kakobrekla: for example, i have upped myself via pm, yet;

00:45:11 kakobrekla: !rate mircea_popescu -10 scammer

00:45:11 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/1f7f6d235233d678

00:45:16 mircea_popescu: o yay

00:45:21 mircea_popescu: duuude...

00:45:23 asciilifeform: neato!

00:45:32 kakobrekla: !verify assbot:kakobrekla.rate.mircea_popescu.-10:61751f23d45137825f4ecd78de4a6afb42d01c5d9c6b802b6ec6f4b135e47504

00:45:32 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from 3 to -10 with note: scammer

00:45:35 mircea_popescu: this is almost as if someone sat down and thought about it.

00:46:03 kakobrekla: !rate mircea_popescu 5 good fella

00:46:03 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/d625cacf59990e9f

00:46:13 kakobrekla: !v assbot:kakobrekla.rate.mircea_popescu.5:1676039169b957f6a18439b6daeade5919887f01b82d832f7b01e7e97885216c

00:46:13 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from -10 to 5 with note: good fella

00:46:27 kakobrekla: !rated mircea_popescu

00:46:27 assbot: You rated user mircea_popescu on 16-Dec-2012, with a rating of 5, and supplied these additional notes: good fella.

00:46:33 kakobrekla: !gettrust mircea_popescu

00:46:34 assbot: Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user mircea_popescu: Level 1: 5, Level 2: 47 via 31 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/kakobrekla/mircea_popescu | http://w.b-a.link/user/mircea_popescu

00:46:42 kakobrekla: !gettrust assbot mircea_popescu

00:46:43 assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user mircea_popescu: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 27 via 27 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/mircea_popescu | http://w.b-a.link/user/mircea_popescu

00:46:45 mircea_popescu: fcking hell ?!

00:47:04 kakobrekla: there is also !unrate and !changekey

00:47:10 mircea_popescu: ok this is like splendid

00:47:18 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: how does changekey work ?

00:47:55 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla can it have another field, the user json ?

00:48:07 mircea_popescu: [source] =>

00:48:15 mircea_popescu: with possible values "Gribble" "Assbot" so far ?

00:48:16 kakobrekla: !changekey CB39A1B24F01ADE0A597552D70C68A9048079D7A

00:48:16 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9493f77dcc359a13

00:48:28 kakobrekla: !v assbot:kakobrekla.changekey.cb39a1b24f01ade0a597552d70c68a9048079d7a:f08dfbbdc1e3292ded6d3e8072857f50c284aa922832b4329354bd5cb54b45c7

00:48:28 assbot: Key 48079D7A / "test test <test@test>" successfully imported.

00:48:28 assbot: New key fingerprint for kakobrekla is: CB39A1B24F01ADE0A597552D70C68A9048079D7A

00:49:34 kakobrekla: !changekey 27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8

00:49:34 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/5fcd835b15264557

00:49:54 kakobrekla: !v assbot:kakobrekla.changekey.27c3ce9a20851312f086268c27af75321f2489e8:bfef481697fe5e3612c388f8d894f2d1d624e57cf99c1545f9a65b98ce076a62

00:49:54 assbot: No changes, key already exists.

00:49:58 kakobrekla: bah!

00:50:22 kakobrekla: imm just hax this manually.

00:50:55 kakobrekla: asciilifeform satisfactory answer ?

00:50:59 asciilifeform: aha

00:51:00 asciilifeform: neato!

00:52:22 kakobrekla: mircea_popescu what do you mean 'source' ?

00:52:28 kakobrekla: what is the value of source

00:53:03 PeterL: I did it!

00:54:15 kakobrekla: cool

00:56:42 kakobrekla: ah forgot to mention, otps can be executed out of order, but they are valid only for 15 min

00:57:01 kakobrekla: and you dont have to be on chan to use it.

00:58:56 kakobrekla: also if we downrate someone to l2=0 you should be able to !down immediately now, although i havent tested it.

00:59:21 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla as in, if the rating was given via here, or imported from gribble's db

00:59:34 kakobrekla: ah that

01:00:01 kakobrekla: i guess i can add tat.

01:00:05 kakobrekla: that

01:00:15 mircea_popescu: would be useful. then we have gribble-assbot talk to each other via diffs

01:00:19 mircea_popescu: and both can display both.

01:01:04 kakobrekla: ah and another detail, if you noticed there is no place to specify your 'wot' nick

01:01:12 kakobrekla: which means you irc nick is your wot nick

01:01:19 kakobrekla: or shit wont fly.

01:01:20 mircea_popescu: right.

01:01:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40400 @ 0.00042168 = 17.0359 BTC [+] {3}

01:01:43 mircea_popescu: !rated kakobrekla

01:01:43 assbot: You rated user kakobrekla on 03-Mar-2013, with a rating of 5, and supplied these additional notes: too much stuff to list. inquire within..

01:01:58 mircea_popescu: ah i'm so happy :D

01:02:26 kakobrekla: yeah your political strike was totally worth it.

01:02:37 mircea_popescu: defo.

01:02:57 PeterL: so the link is different every time?

01:03:22 kakobrekla: yes

01:03:46 kakobrekla: you can request 10 commands, take them all at once to airgap

01:03:52 kakobrekla: do the jizlle and bring them back

01:04:04 kakobrekla: well 10 = n

01:04:08 mircea_popescu: yeah the old way had the advantage of automation, but this has the more significant advantage of airgap

01:04:08 kakobrekla: just an example.

01:04:11 mircea_popescu: heh, too slow eh

01:04:29 kakobrekla: is it so hard to read off the link?

01:04:34 mircea_popescu: nop.

01:05:17 kakobrekla: i could do /otps/$nick and list active ones

01:05:22 kakobrekla: if it helps.

01:05:29 danielpbarron: maybe make the voice one always use the same url?

01:05:40 mircea_popescu: can't hurt. leave all these for a 2nd version down the road.

01:05:45 mircea_popescu: do as a batch

01:06:05 PeterL: having the same for voice would make it so our scripts from gribble would be easily convirtable

01:06:17 danielpbarron: does upping and downing others require auth?

01:06:33 kakobrekla: voice is sessioned

01:06:35 mircea_popescu: !down danielpbarron

01:06:49 mircea_popescu: works fine

01:06:59 kakobrekla: !up Adlai

01:07:02 kakobrekla: !down Adlai

01:07:21 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo / cazalla pls to write-up this truly momentuous development.

01:09:37 cazalla: i have birthday guests in the next 30m so if BingoBoingo can otherwise i'll catch up on logs this evening and write up whatever it is that needs doing

01:09:51 mircea_popescu: o hey, happy bday.

01:09:55 danielpbarron: i especially like how changekey now requires auth

01:10:04 cazalla: mircea_popescu, not mine, my son's first birthday :)

01:10:06 mircea_popescu: gribble does too neh ?

01:10:10 mircea_popescu: cazalla even more yours then!

01:10:14 danielpbarron: nope

01:10:22 mircea_popescu: ...

01:10:25 cazalla: not really, these 20 odd people are going to mess up my clean home :\

01:10:53 danielpbarron: if i'm session authed with gribble and someone hacks my irc, they can change my key

01:10:59 cazalla: anyway.. shower time and then to play host and patriarch, bbl

01:11:39 danielpbarron: i figured that was why you always logged out when not chatting

01:11:51 asciilifeform: the changekey thing leaves something to be desired.

01:12:03 asciilifeform: if i want to change keys, i should have to specifically sign a message to that effect.

01:12:22 asciilifeform: or is that how it already works, nm.

01:12:35 danielpbarron: that's how it now works

01:13:01 asciilifeform: aha.

01:13:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29700 @ 0.00043393 = 12.8877 BTC [+] {2}

01:22:02 PeterL: does assbot log ratings changes anywhere?

01:23:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70150 @ 0.00041356 = 29.0112 BTC [-] {6}

01:25:04 kakobrekla: whats next, a nuclear sub delivered 2 days before your order while paying you 500$?

01:25:38 kakobrekla: but could be done.

01:25:46 kakobrekla: !rate assbot 10 test

01:25:46 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/f4c7a7785fd43f96

01:27:55 mircea_popescu: lol nucular soob!

01:28:01 mircea_popescu: !rated assbot

01:28:01 assbot: You rated user assbot on 12-Apr-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Nice ass & face bot..

01:28:21 mircea_popescu: !rate assbot 10 Nuclear sub delivered 2 days before order while paying me $500

01:28:21 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/08d27186c6ed6b39

01:28:46 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla totallyput a \n after otps

01:28:55 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.assbot.10:e33f37ce0c6349c2ff073951a8cd8907102c1ccbe4996cad4061ed1e6fc1d310

01:28:55 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for assbot from 1 to 10 with note: Nuclear sub delivered 2 days before order while paying me $500

01:30:29 kakobrekla: !rate assbot 10 test

01:30:29 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/46ae34a617b1519d

01:30:30 kakobrekla: !rate assbot 10 test

01:30:30 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/ec89a1090cd1b971

01:30:50 mircea_popescu: http://33.media.tumblr.com/aa4d42e55dc9d8cd59ee2249f05f5de0/tumblr_n5a2vslCDP1sa3bwyo1_500.gif

01:30:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LoDXt )

01:31:53 kakobrekla: http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/

01:31:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LoQK4 )

01:31:59 kakobrekla: here bitches. static link.

01:32:31 mircea_popescu: most recent ?

01:32:43 kakobrekla: o wait i have to encrypt those.

01:32:43 mircea_popescu: ah json. werx.

01:33:03 kakobrekla: ah links ?

01:33:04 kakobrekla: ok

01:33:09 kakobrekla: ill put links

01:33:30 mircea_popescu: yeh links prolly easier, oner per line

01:34:39 mircea_popescu: people can go curl http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/ | curl | gpg

01:34:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LpEPa )

01:34:47 mircea_popescu: perhaps with some awk thrown in

01:35:45 kakobrekla: http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/

01:35:46 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LpXcT )

01:35:48 kakobrekla: thar fixd

01:35:58 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo / cazalla pls to write-up this truly momentuous development. << lemme catch up on what the news is and I'll hammer something out.

01:38:49 asciilifeform: http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2013-November/018670.html << somehow missed this

01:38:50 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LqRWD )

01:39:12 asciilifeform: (for crypto aficionados ^)

01:42:28 asciilifeform: vaguely credible evidence that usg puts to use ecc internally, but no suggestion of with what curves.

01:42:41 asciilifeform: alternatively, elaborate desinfo.

01:47:44 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-01-2015#979842

01:47:44 assbot: Logged on 17-01-2015 00:48:07; mircea_popescu: [source] =>

01:47:49 kakobrekla: done ^^

01:48:54 kakobrekla: i dared to manually alter source of your rating here http://w.b-a.link/user/assbot

01:48:55 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LtUya )

01:49:09 kakobrekla: others will be assbot sourced automatically from now on.

01:52:36 kakobrekla: btw this line kept going through my head while coding

01:52:37 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-01-2015#967758

01:52:37 assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 04:03:56; asciilifeform: trust is simply an obsolete, pre-scientific word.

01:52:47 kakobrekla: but then i forgot to ask wtf am i to do.

01:53:16 kakobrekla: still open to changes if needs be.

01:59:35 BingoBoingo: Who all collborated on asswot? Did you do it all kakobrekla?

02:00:30 kakobrekla: myea

02:00:43 BingoBoingo: K

02:07:40 mircea_popescu: splendor

02:08:20 mircea_popescu: so ima send a btc to assbot's 1B6NP9eb4RKy9tRrXYCJnNcenZkrt5Q2gb

02:08:30 mircea_popescu: further contributions encouraged!

02:08:41 thestringpuller: is it open source?

02:09:37 mircea_popescu: trust is good. what, fucking is also an obsolete, pre-scientific word. slides right down nevertheless.

02:10:17 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/01/assbot-gains-web-of-trust-functionality/

02:10:54 BingoBoingo: ^ And on that note I'm headed out for a bit.

02:13:28 kakobrekla: ty

02:14:08 kakobrekla: updated the welcome message (took out gribble part) and removed ddos warning , i think its gone again?

02:14:32 artifexd: Snowden worked at the NSA until June 2013. GPG 1.4.13 was committed on 2012-12-20. GPG 1.4.14 was committed on 2013-07-25.d

02:14:47 artifexd: mircea_popescu: 1.4.13 is acceptable and 1.4.14 is not, correct?

02:15:25 kakobrekla: hows that ?

02:15:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37657 @ 0.00043023 = 16.2012 BTC [+]

02:15:51 kakobrekla: snowden broke gpg somehow ?

02:16:53 artifexd: I believe the point is that Snowden didn't say gpg was compromised. However it could have been compromised since he left. Only mircea_popescu knows mircea_popescu's motivation for that spec though.

02:17:21 asciilifeform: there is always the option of actually studying the changelog.

02:17:33 asciilifeform: not a bad idea in any case

02:17:35 artifexd: That is what I'm looking at right now.

02:17:43 artifexd: http://git.gnupg.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=gnupg.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/STABLE-BRANCH-1-4

02:17:44 assbot: git.gnupg.org Git - gnupg.git/shortlog ... ( http://bit.ly/14LB1Xd )

02:18:35 kakobrekla: its not like changelog will say "hax was inserted here"

02:18:50 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: lol

02:27:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41550 @ 0.00042089 = 17.488 BTC [-] {2}

02:28:03 mircea_popescu: artifexd it's not a strict thing, more like a general consideration. i doubt they managed to react fast enough to do much to 4.14

02:28:50 mircea_popescu: anyway, the point is that gpg was widely used for the snowden leaks. this indicates that a major player trusted it, and was right in so doing ; and suggests a major target for that reason alone.

02:29:35 kakobrekla: meh snowden leaks could just as well be disinfo

02:29:39 mircea_popescu: i know for a fact the usg did not know what was in the leaks until their press agents told em

02:29:54 mircea_popescu: anything could be anything. but my arbitrary sez no.

02:30:09 *: kakobrekla does the sexygingers dance

02:33:34 asciilifeform: re: disinfo: http://imgur.com/dXtnSoJ

02:33:35 assbot: disinfo - Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/14LFDN3 )

02:33:41 asciilifeform: seems like pretty obvious case thereof.

02:37:17 undata: asciilifeform: apparently this google device on my desk is impenetrable. who knew

02:37:53 undata: I'll stop worrying when it automatically opts me back into location history tracking

02:39:53 asciilifeform: if that slide deck is genuine, i've a bridge to sell.

02:49:20 mircea_popescu: zrtp bs.

02:50:04 asciilifeform: incidentally, z is for zimmerman.

02:50:14 asciilifeform: who, by all indications, was swallowed some time ago.

02:50:39 mircea_popescu: myea

02:52:22 asciilifeform: in my diseased mind, the parsimonious hypothesis is that there is actually an nsa where that deck was genuinely crapped out by earnest monkeys who believe every word.

02:52:41 asciilifeform: (and that there is another one, where it wasn't. but i think we did this one before)

02:53:09 *: asciilifeform would like to see the -other- slide deck.

02:53:29 asciilifeform: or perhaps -those- folks don't go in for 'powerpoint.'

02:54:31 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you find it interesting that, despite the legend of snowden having used gpg, we have no signatures from him pertaining to any of the material ?

02:54:51 asciilifeform: he could easily, if he wished, demonstrate what the genuine material was, and what has been doctored or made up wholesale.

02:55:22 asciilifeform: this is assuming that we have a reasonably certain copy of his pubkey pre-dating the events. which, iirc, we do.

02:59:29 thestringpuller: decentralized bitbet?

02:59:31 thestringpuller: http://augur.link/augur.pdf

03:02:09 danielpbarron: such a thing is not possible; there needs to be an arbiter to decide if a bet has resolved yes or no

03:03:22 thestringpuller: but that's what oracles are for

03:03:25 asciilifeform: 'A key feature of Augur is tradeable Reputation. The total amount of Reputation is a fixed quantity, determined upon the launch of Augur. Holding Reputation entitles its owner to report on the outcomes of events, after the events occur. Reputation tokens are similar in other respects to Bitcoins: they are divisible to eight decimal places, they are accounted for by summing over unspent transaction outputs, and they can be sent

03:03:25 asciilifeform: between users.'

03:03:26 asciilifeform: ^ lol!

03:03:31 asciilifeform: srsly ?

03:04:07 thestringpuller: danielpbarron is in party. regenerate 5 hp per turn. :D

03:04:12 thestringpuller: caise ypi

03:04:18 thestringpuller: cause you're a crypto priest*

03:04:35 danielpbarron: decentralized bitbet like counterparty is decentralized mpex; just replaces the infrastructure (with something worse)

03:05:40 asciilifeform: i'm not averse to seeing actual solutions to 'decentralized xxxxx,' but they inevitably fall short re: 'democracy-proofing'

03:05:56 asciilifeform: who wants democracy pus in his meal ?

03:05:57 thestringpuller: !s democracy-proofing

03:05:58 assbot: 0 results for 'democracy-proofing' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=democracy-proofing

03:06:14 thestringpuller: care to elaborate sir asciilifeform ?

03:06:23 thestringpuller: or is it Dr. asciilifeform

03:06:25 asciilifeform: aka sybil, dos, etc. attacks

03:06:28 asciilifeform: !s sybil

03:06:29 assbot: 34 results for 'sybil' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=sybil

03:06:35 asciilifeform: there we go.

03:06:52 thestringpuller: how does that prevent democracy? (a sybil attack)?

03:07:00 asciilifeform: the basic idea is that meat puppets are not in any fundamental way different from other types of puppet.

03:07:07 asciilifeform: and must be dealt with through same mechanisms.

03:08:01 asciilifeform: the 'tradeable reputation' thing sounds disastrous.

03:08:06 asciilifeform: perhaps i'm just thick.

03:08:15 thestringpuller: ah. i understand your viewpoint tho.

03:08:24 thestringpuller: it all depends on volume of puppet imo.

03:08:54 thestringpuller: or maybe everyone is a puppet of some sort. that's a little beyond me tho

03:09:06 asciilifeform: in point of fact, even our system of reputation (wot) is theoretically 'tradeable', in that somebody could - in principle - sell his privkey to satan

03:09:21 danielpbarron: of course it's disastrous; it's like giving the -otc folk power based on their total rating score (which they build up through trivial deals)

03:09:26 asciilifeform: but baking tradeability in as a matter of course - is another thing

03:09:33 asciilifeform: lunacy, imho

03:09:49 thestringpuller: isn't this classic dilemma of selling soul for some benefit/value

03:09:55 thestringpuller: you only have one to trade.

03:10:05 asciilifeform: which they build up through trivial deals << aha. this is actually an age-old plague on 'ebay' and the like.

03:10:07 thestringpuller: tis also irreverisble in nature.

03:10:24 asciilifeform: sc4mz0r cultivates rating with 100,000 'a+++++ gr34t d34lz'

03:10:34 asciilifeform: of fivebux each

03:10:47 asciilifeform: then proceeds to sell, e.g., nonexisting cars.

03:10:48 danielpbarron: the joke in otc is "Smooth TM"

03:11:03 thestringpuller: this is how athero was able to launch ziggap

03:11:30 thestringpuller: he sold shares in non existant broker bitcoin selling thing compan

03:11:31 thestringpuller: y

03:11:56 thestringpuller: ;;gettrust aethero

03:11:56 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user thestringpuller to user aethero: Level 1: -1, Level 2: 0 via 3 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=thestringpuller&dest=aethero | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=aethero | Rated since: Wed May 2 19:24:52 2012

03:12:19 danielpbarron: what with all the hard fork drama, i'd say anything that can be kept centralized should probably remain centralized

03:12:57 thestringpuller: danielpbarron: i think the hardfork drama is fundamentally seeing split, or cold war in bitcoin

03:13:01 thestringpuller: east vs. west.

03:13:09 thestringpuller: capitalist vs. socialist

03:13:17 thestringpuller: etc.

03:13:22 asciilifeform: i have said before that an official usg altcoin is inevitable.

03:13:29 asciilifeform: gavincoin's probably it.

03:13:45 thestringpuller: yet we'll still pay taxes in bezzles?

03:14:08 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: gavincoin is not made to replace usd, but to bleed bitcoin

03:14:34 thestringpuller: ofc, but USG coin that is used to also do what? annoy us out of our money like some comcast nonsenese?

03:14:57 asciilifeform: you will have to ask the fellow who thought it up

03:15:03 asciilifeform: once he sits down on mircea_popescu's stake.

03:15:15 asciilifeform: perhaps he'll do a q&a

03:15:47 danielpbarron: "I am slowely being impaled on a sharped stake. Ask me anything."

03:15:57 asciilifeform: !b 5

03:15:58 assbot: Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0VE53AD.txt )

03:17:00 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: I do not see how anyone will contribute to usgavincoin when Buterin's waterfall explodes right after inception.

03:17:22 thestringpuller: Spend X money to build hoover dam and it explodes less than a year while runnign?

03:17:50 asciilifeform: seems clear that they'll pour the water on the other side.

03:17:56 asciilifeform: not on their own. (of the fork)

03:18:21 thestringpuller: But isn't this like someone trying to power a water wheel by simply running up stream with buckets of water they collect downstream?

03:18:29 asciilifeform: collected.

03:18:36 asciilifeform: or rather, robbed.

03:18:42 danielpbarron: there are plenty of people who are so focused on "mass adoption" as a priority that they will compromise any and all aspects of bitcoin to further that goal; what would get more mass adoption than endorsement from USG?

03:18:58 thestringpuller: It's still non-trivial effort tho, to run long term

03:19:10 thestringpuller: and wasteful. like fast explosion vs slow ember

03:19:18 thestringpuller: at least in my mind

03:19:21 asciilifeform: i'm not seeing any serious evidence of 'long-term' thinking on usg's part.

03:19:31 thestringpuller: i can only imagine poor peon running up stream trying to keep water wheel moving

03:20:40 asciilifeform: i can easily picture an 'atomic war' where every btc which usg has at some point begged, borrowed, stole, or can prevail upon a vassal to give up control of - will be placed on market in a 'last hurrah'

03:21:06 thestringpuller: danielpbarron: re: mass adoption << I always felt people wanted mass adoption so price raises.

03:21:19 thestringpuller: Which is perverted thinking at best.

03:22:17 thestringpuller: starving marvin in kenya buys a bitcoin with his 50000 kenyan shillings he saved up over the course of 5 years...

03:23:15 danielpbarron: i don't think they are so rational; i suspect it has more to do with "going viral" like a clever youtube video, and having been in on it before it was trendy

03:23:35 danielpbarron: although 2014 might have put an end to that

03:25:51 thestringpuller: i never understood when going viral became the equivalent of becoming valuable...

03:26:11 asciilifeform: from the standpoint of vermin - yes, valuable

03:26:25 asciilifeform: all vermin envy the virus.

03:26:28 thestringpuller: black plague for all?

03:26:51 thestringpuller: but in all srsns, i thought the "popularity contest" died out by the end of high school

03:27:10 thestringpuller: now it seems the popularity contest is "the thing"

03:28:48 thestringpuller: 22:13 <+asciilifeform> i have said before that an official usg altcoin is

03:29:10 thestringpuller: ^- my bad. copy paste is bad with this one

03:38:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: (and that there is another one, where it wasn't. but i think we did this one before) << like 5 or 7 times.

03:40:39 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron: such a thing is not possible; there needs to be an arbiter to decide if a bet has resolved yes or no << easier to "invent" stuff than understand stuff. just like it's easier to write new code than understand coding.

03:42:19 mircea_popescu: "whenever misreporting an event is worth more to your stake than it costs to buy back the lost reputation, you misreport the event. decentralized selective scamming ftw!"

03:43:35 mircea_popescu: "others will not readily understand how our implementation of 3 card monte is an implementation of 3 card monte, giving us an exploitable knowledge asymmetry - which makes this exactly an altcoin, which is why it's sensible to pretend we're like bitcoin"

03:43:36 mircea_popescu: etc

03:45:42 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: this is how athero was able to launch ziggap << not a very good example. he had amassed trust over time, and likely at a higher cost than what he made out of it. the controlling factor there was "insane guy stopped taking his pills one day."

03:45:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6100 @ 0.00041938 = 2.5582 BTC [-]

03:46:20 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: i couldn't find good example on top of head. but was jist of it received?

03:46:56 mircea_popescu: sure

03:47:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: gavincoin's probably it. << no. in typical fashion they're trying to play it "anonymously". ie, not official.

03:47:44 mircea_popescu: it really gets them the worst of both worlds, but hey, it's what committees get. no actual men there to take charge.

03:48:41 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron: there are plenty of people who are so focused on "mass adoption" as a priority that they will compromise any and all aspects of bitcoin to further that goal; what would get more mass adoption than endorsement from USG? << it could become a new brand of tide.

03:48:55 mircea_popescu: "bitcoin is now a detergent. finally a commodity !!!"

03:50:59 asciilifeform: they're trying to play it "anonymously". ie, not official << with pretense every bit as thin as with 'tor'.

03:51:39 mircea_popescu: hence worst of both worlds.

03:58:30 xiando: I would prefer if they don't endorse that or anything and leave it alone.

03:59:38 mircea_popescu: nothing gets left alone.

04:04:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47850 @ 0.00041938 = 20.0673 BTC [-]

04:04:07 xiando: I know, but I don't have to like it. :)

04:04:44 mircea_popescu: :p

04:04:52 mircea_popescu: hence the "leave britny alone" meme.

04:06:26 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

04:06:28 assbot: LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1C9dpcq )

04:17:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58803 @ 0.00042896 = 25.2241 BTC [+] {2}

04:19:55 mircea_popescu: so there's a small statue in buenos aires with a san martin quote i absolutely love.

04:20:07 mircea_popescu: "De lo que mis granaderos son capaces, solo lo s? yo. Quien los iguale habr?. Quien los exceda - no."

04:20:35 mircea_popescu: "what my grenadiers are capable of, only I know. their equals might be found. their superiors - no."

04:29:18 mircea_popescu: http://www.accessatlanta.com/news/entertainment/celebrity-news/extreme-makeover-home-in-atlanta-in-foreclosure/nQx5J/ << who here lived in atlanta ? is this clinton-era-esque lulz legit ?

04:29:20 assbot: 'Extreme Makeover' home in Atlanta in foreclosure | www.accessatlanta.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cyqfz6 )

04:32:16 mircea_popescu: !up metsuno

04:32:27 mircea_popescu: ahh assbot, so nice to be back.

04:37:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26924 @ 0.00045486 = 12.2467 BTC [+] {2}

04:38:49 hanbot: hooray for uberassbot

04:39:25 mircea_popescu: :)

04:39:31 mircea_popescu: anyone wanna do a 30 bux cc payment for me ?

04:39:39 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron ?

04:40:06 danielpbarron: cc not paypal?

04:41:01 danielpbarron: ya i guess

04:49:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45650 @ 0.00046921 = 21.4194 BTC [+] {3}

04:51:58 mircea_popescu: hory shit i had to pay half a tent of a bitcent in tx fees. HODL EVERYTHANG!!! MUST INCREASE BLOXSIZE PLOX!

04:57:12 mircea_popescu: !up decimation

04:57:38 mircea_popescu: !up dub

04:57:54 decimation: I find the 'go' rant amusing. Would asciilifeform similarly object to python? I believe it can run on mips

04:58:05 mircea_popescu: you hate go too ?

04:59:05 decimation: I wouldn't call it 'hate' as much as 'utterly uninterested'

04:59:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00044949 = 10.3832 BTC [-]

05:00:10 decimation: I just can't imagine a future in which I will need to learn 'go' for work or pleasure

05:00:12 mircea_popescu: kinda my position too

05:07:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50422 @ 0.00047596 = 23.9989 BTC [+]

05:07:43 decimation: is this the paper in question? cryptome.org/2013/09/klepto-crypto.pdf

05:14:38 decimation: ah I see that link only has a few pages of the book

05:15:52 mircea_popescu: "Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts" anyone here actually played planescape : torment ?

05:22:15 mircea_popescu: !up NomosOne

05:25:10 decimation: apparently usg has decided to greatly limit (not completely stop) civil forfeiture at the federal level

05:25:27 decimation: outgoing attorney general Holder wants to 'make a legacy'

05:25:29 mircea_popescu: no ?!

05:25:37 decimation: http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/holder-ends-seized-asset-sharing-process-that-split-billions-with-local-state-police/2015/01/16/0e7ca058-99d4-11e4-bcfb-059ec7a93ddc_story.html

05:25:37 assbot: Holder limits seized-asset sharing process that split billions with local, state police - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynDEMM )

05:26:00 mircea_popescu: seems more like a landgrab than anything ?

05:26:14 decimation: how so?

05:27:03 decimation: well, it certainly curtails one form of civil forfeiture at the federal level, leaving a vacuum that can be filled at the state level, if the states so desire

05:29:18 mircea_popescu: ah you're right. originally i read it as "we'll just keep more of it".

05:29:34 mircea_popescu: btw decimation assbot now allows wotization, pm it !up

05:31:27 asciilifeform: the 'vacuum' will be filled by theft and robbery from the same place as before.

05:31:30 asciilifeform: because how else.

05:31:45 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/e9757a9deb4f50a25d868f26f4c3ab1d/tumblr_mvec3nySMa1s6dk4zo1_500.jpg was a great car.

05:31:46 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynEw3W )

05:36:19 ben_vulpes: did i crash assbot?

05:37:39 mircea_popescu: dun think so

05:37:56 ben_vulpes: nope. perhaps the otp machine?

05:38:38 ben_vulpes: what are the semantics for working with asswot?

05:39:21 asciilifeform: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/14/this-powerful-reddit-thread-reveals-how-the-poor-get-by-in-america << we've arrived at the end of the line. u.s. newspapers print articles concerning reddit threads.

05:39:22 assbot: This powerful Reddit thread reveals how the poor get by in America - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynFBc4 )

05:40:08 ben_vulpes: ;;later tell manamex you're joining channels and then applying your cloak. FYI.

05:40:08 gribble: The operation succeeded.

05:40:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00047268 = 9.2645 BTC [-]

05:42:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47100 @ 0.00047621 = 22.4295 BTC [+] {2}

05:43:27 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes like in chan ? pm it !up it responds with otp, pm it !v otp

05:44:26 kakobrekla: !rate ben_vulpes test

05:44:26 assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.

05:44:31 kakobrekla: !rate ben_vulpes 1 test

05:44:31 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/7e95d1cb8e7c1075

05:44:47 kakobrekla: what do you mean it doesnt work ben_vulpes ?

05:44:58 ben_vulpes: that link refuses to resolve for me

05:45:01 mircea_popescu: yeah, scam error report.

05:45:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71107 @ 0.00047967 = 34.1079 BTC [+] {3}

05:46:23 kakobrekla: ;;isup http://w.b-a.link/otp/5d95a96032e89e9e

05:46:24 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynGCB0 )

05:46:24 gribble: http://w.b-a.link/otp/5d95a96032e89e9e is up

05:48:20 ben_vulpes: https://www.refheap.com/96220

05:48:22 assbot: anonymous's paste: 96220 ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynGPEa )

05:49:34 mircea_popescu: PING ( 56(84) bytes of data.

05:49:35 mircea_popescu: 64 bytes from icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=252 ms

05:49:35 mircea_popescu: 64 bytes from icmp_seq=2 ttl=49 time=248 ms

05:49:42 mircea_popescu: l'etrange.

05:50:16 kakobrekla: yes my shit banned your shit.

05:50:43 mircea_popescu: ban shee!

05:51:06 ben_vulpes: mk

05:53:13 ben_vulpes: lmk if that changes, yeah?

05:54:38 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform washington post = newspaper in the sense projects = neighbourhoods.

05:54:50 mircea_popescu: the hoods part, okay.

05:55:03 asciilifeform: then what newspaper remains in usa ?

05:55:12 mircea_popescu: hum.

05:55:25 mircea_popescu: i guess kinda blighted.

05:55:32 asciilifeform: wash. post is 'the other' nyt.

05:55:50 ben_vulpes: "newspaper" in the trad'l sense of "town rag" still exists in various municipalities. "grey lady", not so much.

05:55:51 mircea_popescu: more like the other Forward.

05:55:55 asciilifeform: these two fishwraps are almost always sold in bins together.

05:56:01 kakobrekla: try now ben_vulpes

05:56:13 ben_vulpes: ty kakobrekla

05:56:30 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu may be thinking of 'washington times

05:56:31 asciilifeform: '

05:56:46 mircea_popescu: i never heard of that one.

05:57:06 ben_vulpes: !rate kakobrekla 3 wot steward

05:57:06 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/190b6cfc995f06a2

05:57:26 asciilifeform: at any rate, the article is intensely lulzy

05:57:33 ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.kakobrekla.3:71dbfce4f8bb960b54b95894d306db892a6f30da3fc5776c31b3ef6f2f45b0c4

05:57:33 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 3 to 3 with note: wot steward

05:57:44 kakobrekla: works, cool

05:57:45 ben_vulpes: neat

05:59:03 decimation: alright works

05:59:20 kakobrekla: yeah im surprised myself

05:59:25 mircea_popescu: http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/wikipedia-kills-page-linking-obama-slogan-to-socialist-movement/ < < lawl.

05:59:29 assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynInhH )

05:59:46 mircea_popescu: apparently wikipedia deleted a page discussing the "forward" as a generic name for socialist publications after someone mocked obama for it.

05:59:57 decimation: asciilifeform: lol so apparently reddit is where bums hang out?

06:01:07 mircea_popescu: been saying that for a while!11

06:01:54 decimation: the other amusing point that the article fails to bring up: if the 'poor' must pay to live in a dense shitty city, why not move to the country?

06:02:12 asciilifeform: decimation: presumably, moving costs something

06:02:26 mircea_popescu: the poor flock to the city since the times of rabelais for the same reason : you can eat without working there.

06:02:29 mircea_popescu: not so in the country

06:02:29 decimation: if living off gov't checks anyway, wouldn't a trailer park somewhere stretch the bezzlars?

06:02:46 asciilifeform: decimation: another interesting fact re: usa is that rental properties are scarce to nonexistent when you walk out of the high-density areas

06:04:23 mircea_popescu: hmm, no testament in english ?

06:04:34 decimation: but the basic bitch here reminds me of something like 'heavier things are heavier'

06:04:55 decimation: of course someone with a spare $bil to invest in a sony movie (for example) will make $0.5 bil profit

06:04:56 asciilifeform: testament ?

06:05:28 decimation: having fifty bux means your investment options are limited to your own stomach

06:06:04 asciilifeform: 5k - also stomach

06:06:13 asciilifeform: and arguably likewise 50k.

06:06:14 decimation: yeah pretty much

06:06:25 mircea_popescu: you know you can buy stocks online these days on about 1k i think ?

06:06:31 asciilifeform: lol stocks

06:06:50 decimation: what are you gonna do? buy shares of wal-mart and hope they go up 100x?

06:07:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31129 @ 0.00047521 = 14.7928 BTC [-]

06:07:11 asciilifeform: the cheapo stock houses make a killing by charging xx usd / trade

06:07:13 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform testament ? << http://damienbe.chez.com/testamen.htm

06:07:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynJtK5 )

06:07:15 ben_vulpes: i'll settle for 8%/year

06:07:29 mircea_popescu: decimation why 100x ? you proposed a 1bn - >1.5 bn deal.

06:07:29 asciilifeform: aha -that- testament

06:07:40 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform students (aka bums) in paris. right ?

06:07:43 mircea_popescu: why paris ?

06:08:01 decimation: even in that case, it's gonna take awhile before walmart stock goes from $1k to 1.5k

06:08:23 mircea_popescu: En l'an de mon trentiesme age, que toutes mes hontes j'euz beues, ne du tout fol, ne du tout saige non obstant maintes peines eues, lesquelles j'ay toutes receues soubz la main Thibault d'Aucigny ...

06:08:23 mircea_popescu: S'esvesque il est, signant les rues, qu'il soit le mien je le regny.

06:08:40 mircea_popescu: decimation films are some of the most risky investments out there you know.

06:09:19 decimation: yeah I'm using it as a somewhat poor example. my main point is that having $x mil to 'invest' allows one to bend over and pick up stuff that bums have no access to

06:09:42 mircea_popescu: i dispute this theory.

06:09:59 mircea_popescu: there is no significant advantage to size, and a serious problem to it.

06:10:16 mircea_popescu: buffett oft dwells on the matter : it's easy for krill to find a good meal, on account of being small. not so easy for whale.

06:10:41 asciilifeform: villon << http://flibusta.net/b/374344/download

06:10:44 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynJTjT )

06:10:44 asciilifeform: ^ ru translation

06:11:14 decimation: I suppose the principle at work here is that once one has $x, one finds no portion of x to be 'spare'

06:11:21 mircea_popescu: there's a decent english one by de verre

06:11:27 mircea_popescu: not sure if on the nets or not

06:11:41 mircea_popescu: decimation in any case spare works better at smaller size.

06:11:41 asciilifeform: rhyming translation ?

06:12:00 asciilifeform: (the linked one is also beautifully illustrated, as it happens)

06:12:11 mircea_popescu: essentially the principle being that you may find excellent "best actresses/cocksuckers", but not really "2nd best actresses/cocksuckers" in proportion.

06:14:23 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> the cheapo stock houses make a killing by charging xx usd / trade << iirc it's about a dime/a quarter per lot, which lot is usually 1k shares, which can easily be 100k usd.

06:14:41 mircea_popescu: yes, much more than say the specialst pays (specialist doesn't pay). this is inconsequential.

06:14:52 ben_vulpes: https://www.robinhood.com/ << if you want to be front-run

06:14:54 assbot: Robinhood - Zero-Commission Stock Brokerage ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynKv8W )

06:15:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the street where i live, just a year or so ago, was covered in ads '$7 / trade111!'

06:15:04 decimation: well, it would be a big deal if you day trade all day

06:15:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but i'm willing to believe that there are newer, more appealing chumpatrons

06:15:23 mircea_popescu: decimation a horrible deal. imagine all the noise you'd be pouring into the market.

06:15:38 asciilifeform: and they all front-run.

06:15:38 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there are at least a dozen honest online brokerages.

06:15:46 mircea_popescu: to those, no doubt five million internet scams.

06:15:58 mircea_popescu: retail is SUPPOSED to be front run for crying out loud.

06:16:05 decimation: asciilifeform: sure, but you are generally talking about pennies per share

06:16:37 asciilifeform: at any rate, why would someone with no informational-asymmetric advantage want to buy stocks ?

06:16:46 mircea_popescu: to invest.

06:16:54 decimation: because that's where the trade bots put their earnings

06:16:55 mircea_popescu: to acquire a portion of the productively outlayed capital i nthe country.

06:17:00 ben_vulpes: <decimation> [] outgoing attorney general Holder wants to 'make a legacy' << just look for the "apparent pedophilia rate" as evidenced by "he had kiddie pr0nz" to go up.

06:17:12 asciilifeform: ^

06:17:21 decimation: yeah that will be interesting

06:17:37 decimation: suddenly everyone will be serious drug runner/terrorist/pedo

06:17:38 asciilifeform: or a sudden plague of 'illegal gun'

06:17:47 asciilifeform: (another exception in the new law)

06:18:04 ben_vulpes: everyone's trivially framed.

06:18:05 mircea_popescu: i read it thatthey may only confiscate the guns

06:18:12 mircea_popescu: but not the cars/cash.

06:20:35 decimation: in some states (illinois) you must register all your guns with the state

06:23:08 ben_vulpes: https://vine.co/v/OZOnMZ2xpZZ << stability manifolds

06:23:09 assbot: Watch Reid Wiseman's Vine "Even a 50kg mass does the same flipping maneuver. “Wild” to me! #science #SpaceVine" ... ( http://bit.ly/1Civp1R )

06:24:48 decimation: amusing poettering interview http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/

06:24:49 assbot: Interview: Lennart Poettering | Linux Voice ... ( http://bit.ly/1CivD9e )

06:26:10 decimation: it's pretty obvious that the guy is a control freak who gets off on forcing his way

06:26:24 decimation: "So we started writing Systemd, and Red Hat didn’t like it at all. Red Hat management said: no, we’re going for Upstart, don’t work on that. So I said, OK, I’ll work on it in my free time. Eventually Red Hat realised that the problems we solved with Systemd were relevant, and were problems that needed to be solved, and that you couldn’t ignore them."

06:27:44 undata: decimation: I wasn't aware of that particular detail

06:28:01 undata: tragic; upstart is a much simpler alternative

06:28:18 decimation: "So anyway, long story short, we came to the conclusion that Upstart is conceptually wrong, and it moved at glacial speeds. It also had the problem that Canonical tried very hard to stay in control of it. They made sure, with copyright assignment, that they made it really hard to contribute, but that’s what Linux actually lives off. You get these drive-by patches, as I would call them, where people see that something is broken, or

06:28:20 decimation: something could be improved. They do a Git checkout, do one change, send you it and forget about it."

06:28:41 decimation: he tries to make a halfass technical argument against Upstart, and then whines that it's hard to make commits

06:30:29 decimation: later on he describes people who like systemd as "progressive" and those who reject it as 'conservative'

06:31:01 undata: well that lays bare the abstractions rolling around in that gourd, doesn't it

06:55:45 mircea_popescu: "Few pieces of software in history have been so fiercely debated as Systemd. "

06:55:52 mircea_popescu: really ? because why, because the author is 5 yo ?

06:56:01 mircea_popescu: how about you know, emacs wars ?

06:57:49 asciilifeform: 'In April was the jackal born, In June the rain-fed rivers swelled: 'Never in all my life,' said he, 'Have I so great a flood beheld.'' (orwell)

06:57:58 mircea_popescu: ". It?s growing all the time and now handles logging, device hotplugging events, networking, scheduled actions (like Cron) and much more. Almost every major Linux distribution has adopted Systemd, but there are still some unhappy campers out there,"

06:58:07 mircea_popescu: uhm. happy campers = the entire foss community ?

06:58:24 mircea_popescu: the lulz is so thick, considering the playbook is identically replayed with the gavincoin

06:59:10 mircea_popescu: course, the prospect is a lot grim-er for linux, but hey.

06:59:32 mircea_popescu: "in the most superficial level, some used -h for help, and others ??help. It?s not uniform." << i can't name a tool that doesn't actually honor both.

07:00:00 mircea_popescu: but a fuckwit 20something discussing how "people have not played with unix at all" is, indeed, amusing.

07:00:35 mircea_popescu: "LV: And you never see them again!

07:00:35 mircea_popescu: LP: Yeah, and this is great ? these are the people you want to have, because the vast majority of patches are actually of that kind. "

07:00:46 mircea_popescu: "because they have no political power - and that's what you want, a lot of lemmings"

07:01:02 mircea_popescu: anyway, im not reding this idiocy.

07:01:39 asciilifeform: i read it. it was a total snore.

07:02:36 mircea_popescu: anyway. there's nothing wrong with the people who didn't belong in foss in the first place finding their own way out, just like there's nothing wrong with the people who have no business in bitcoin finding their own way out.

07:03:15 mircea_popescu: kinda why "adoption" is meaningless. i don't care for anyone to "adopt" anything i do. i might care if they change to fit to it. but otherwise, good fucking luck, there's no value in having a bunch of pacific islanders speak english as if it were the retarded language they spoke before.

07:03:20 mircea_popescu: let them stick to what they know and be happy.

07:04:45 mircea_popescu: giving inept infantrymen good horses doesn't create an elite cavalry regiment, it just creates a lot of injured horses. giving stupid people smart things doesn't make them smart. it'll just make a lot of broken smart things.

07:05:00 asciilifeform: !b 4

07:05:00 assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0WFB7MQ.txt )

07:05:02 mircea_popescu: both are a horrible waste of beasts.

07:05:20 decimation: ;;ud pidgin

07:05:21 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pidgin | the slang spoken by the locals in hawaii. people there do not speak hawaiian, they speak pidgin. to all my mainlander "friends": stop asking me fuckin stupid ...

07:06:56 mircea_popescu: in any case, the entire lennart gambit is that "actually smart people won't be able to find each other in our sea of lemmings"

07:07:07 mircea_popescu: kinda why stuff like the wot-foss i was discussing and even gossipd are so important

07:08:04 decimation: well, apparently he confirmed that redhat was itself a ship of lemmings, looking for a lemming-king, and lennart was their man

07:08:20 mircea_popescu: but also why a certain attitude to ineptitude, from the "affirmative action", "wopmen in tech" "don't say nigger" all the way to stupidities like the equalitarism in freenode's policies is so very important. and why linus' "fuck you" is such a major thing.

07:08:35 mircea_popescu: it's not gratuitous, all this. it provides a very valuable signal, both to the inferior and to the superior.

07:09:04 mircea_popescu: every time you see someone being stupid, piss on his face. this is important for them, and it's important for me.

07:09:53 mircea_popescu: tolerance is not the answer to any question worth asking, and it does not serve any purpose other than the general drowning in shit. which is not a desirable outcome in any case.

07:10:59 mircea_popescu: better off if half the "community" gets upset and moves on to collecting bugs or digging trenches or whatever, than if programming becomes a sort of passtime for trench diggers and worm afficionados.

07:11:18 mircea_popescu: /endrant

07:12:39 mircea_popescu: actually no, let's also add an illustration. http://38.media.tumblr.com/055cd45805272e544f0e27e390f1ee7b/tumblr_muf8b3qyLb1sa3bwyo1_r1_500.gif

07:12:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1y88BCM )

07:29:38 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://www.dcnews.ro/apreciere-franc-elve-ian-razboi-ana-birchall-andreea-paul_464977.html << the swiss franc situation is a disaster for 100s of k's of idiot romanians who refinanced their home mortgages in swiss francs to try and capture a half of a percent less interest.

07:29:39 assbot: APRECIERE FRANC ELVEȚIAN: Război cu stenograme Ana Birchall - Andreea Paul | DC News | De ce se intampla ... ( http://bit.ly/1IT3Xu0 )

07:29:52 mircea_popescu: that just turned into 20-30% more principal.

07:37:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.00047521 = 7.9598 BTC [-]

07:41:08 ben_vulpes: ouch.

07:41:41 mircea_popescu: populists in parliament having a field day over it.

07:41:54 mircea_popescu: arrears set to go up from 15% to 25%ish

07:42:15 mircea_popescu: (romania, unlike the us, actually keeps track of unserviced retail debentures)

07:44:30 mircea_popescu: anyway, thassall for me. have fun b-a!

08:22:39 ben_vulpes: does anyone know when the transaction index was added?

08:26:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29000 @ 0.00047473 = 13.7672 BTC [-] {2}

08:32:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14586 @ 0.00047934 = 6.9917 BTC [+] {2}

08:33:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22014 @ 0.00048133 = 10.596 BTC [+]

08:39:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3084 @ 0.00066737 = 2.0582 BTC [-] {10}

10:14:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48186 @ 0.00048133 = 23.1934 BTC [+]

10:27:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19794 @ 0.00048133 = 9.5274 BTC [+]

11:36:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67250 @ 0.00048747 = 32.7824 BTC [+] {3}

12:01:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83100 @ 0.00048144 = 40.0077 BTC [-] {2}

12:18:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65200 @ 0.00048075 = 31.3449 BTC [-] {2}

12:57:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55503 @ 0.00049 = 27.1965 BTC [+]

13:36:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.125 = 1.25 BTC [-] {2}

13:37:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22350 @ 0.00048826 = 10.9126 BTC [-]

13:48:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00049 = 6.223 BTC [+]

13:59:12 mats: http://www.capital.gr/News.asp?id=2203494

13:59:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1B20JCx )

14:01:35 mats: greek bank run, excluded from QE

14:03:26 mats: http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/16/investing/swiss-currency-fxcm one of several

14:03:27 assbot: Swiss shock crushes US currency broker - Jan. 16, 2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1B21bAW )

14:18:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36400 @ 0.00049025 = 17.8451 BTC [+] {2}

14:19:26 kakobrekla: mats http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-01-2015#978599

14:19:26 assbot: Logged on 15-01-2015 21:14:09; kakobrekla: ^^ re chf, a few folks committed suicide today cause of it.

14:39:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31676 @ 0.00049095 = 15.5513 BTC [+]

14:46:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16198 @ 0.00048816 = 7.9072 BTC [-] {2}

14:47:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33465 @ 0.00048797 = 16.3299 BTC [-]

15:00:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7071 @ 0.00049327 = 3.4879 BTC [+] {2}

15:01:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29879 @ 0.00049538 = 14.8015 BTC [+]

15:04:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66400 @ 0.00048603 = 32.2724 BTC [-] {2}

15:42:34 decimation: an amusing blog post http://www.lawfareblog.com/2014/12/did-edward-snowden-call-for-abolishing-the-intelligence-community/

15:42:36 assbot: Lawfare › Did Edward Snowden Call for Abolishing the Intelligence Community? ... ( http://bit.ly/1DNDqjF )

15:45:27 decimation: there's a deep hypocrisy here somewhere. apparently the usg entities who are involved with foreign surveillance couldn't possibly do their jobs if they were subject to 'regulation', but of course regular people trying to say, transact bitcoin, have no such reprieve

15:48:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9600 @ 0.0004847 = 4.6531 BTC [-]

16:01:47 mircea_popescu: good morning asseteers!

16:01:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48550 @ 0.00049745 = 24.1512 BTC [+] {2}

16:08:51 davout: guten tag

16:10:09 davout: so, re yesterday's convo about go and c it occurs to me that b-a will eventually have to have a reviewed & signed code repo

16:11:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14293 @ 0.00048366 = 6.913 BTC [-] {2}

16:11:10 mircea_popescu: this occurs to you through having read the logs re the new github model / how the bitcoin foundation works or independently ?

16:12:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22019 @ 0.00047979 = 10.5645 BTC [-] {2}

16:12:16 davout: well, you can't really build a good house without good bricks

16:12:37 mircea_popescu: right.

16:12:59 mircea_popescu: read the log thread in question tho, it's instructive. about how the point is to have code signed for having been read.

16:13:32 davout: you don't refer to yesterday's convo do you?

16:13:39 davout: !s signed code

16:13:40 assbot: 24 results for 'signed code' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=signed+code

16:15:06 davout: meant yesterday's log as it seems it has come up quite a few times already :D

16:15:07 mircea_popescu: no.

16:15:28 mircea_popescu: this was a few weeks prior to the foundation's birth.

16:16:09 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-09-2014#824250

16:16:09 assbot: Logged on 10-09-2014 11:54:21; mircea_popescu: other than proper cryptography for all foss, as discussed coupla days re gentoo overlays etc, i would fucking love for all lines of code to come with a counter.

16:16:26 davout: ty

16:17:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25821 @ 0.00047875 = 12.3618 BTC [-]

16:19:40 davout: it appears that if we want to make a proper apple pie from scratch we'll have to invent the universe first

16:21:10 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 20000 @ 0.00005363 = 1.0726 BTC [+] {12}

16:21:18 mircea_popescu: which is finbe

16:21:23 mircea_popescu: the current universe sucks anyway.

16:21:34 davout: it is fine indeed

16:23:05 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-01-2015#979896 < http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/last

16:23:05 assbot: Logged on 17-01-2015 01:06:05; PeterL: having the same for voice would make it so our scripts from gribble would be easily convirtable

16:23:07 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IUaynW )

16:23:16 davout: i have nfi what kind of workload it would represent to make some linux fork that's entirely reviewed, assume it'd be pretty massive

16:23:20 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla : can assbot match 32 char strings as keyids instead of names ?

16:23:24 mircea_popescu: so stuff like <mircea_popescu> !gettrust mircea_popescu 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452

16:23:24 mircea_popescu: <assbot> 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 is not registered in WoT.

16:23:29 PeterL: new voicing model, we still have to join #b-a before verifying otp

16:23:32 mircea_popescu: works so it simplifies deedbot design a lot ?

16:23:53 mircea_popescu: davout depends how much crap you're wiling to hoist overboard.

16:24:08 kakobrekla: how does it simplify ?

16:24:20 davout: yup

16:24:23 PeterL: kakobrekla: are you pointing out my horrible spelling? :)

16:24:23 mircea_popescu: the workload pain will probably be far exceeded by the cries of horror of the large hordes of nobodies that can no longer "innovate", in the sense their gunk is no longer included in repos

16:24:29 kakobrekla: <PeterL> new voicing model, we still have to join #b-a before verifying otp < yes, no session, recall?

16:24:31 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla 2.1. Bot extracts the signature keyid through a process homologuous to gpg -v -v

16:24:32 mircea_popescu: 2.2. Bot makes a request to assbot via pm, of the format ;;gpg info --key <key currently

16:24:48 kakobrekla: PeterL you are missing the link ?

16:24:50 mircea_popescu: that way, it wouldn't have to do two steps, just directly gettrust to a keyid.

16:25:03 PeterL: well, for gribble I have script that runs curl and gpg and pastes the result

16:25:12 kakobrekla: again : http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/last

16:25:13 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSh16y )

16:25:26 PeterL: for assbot, now I have to use the mouse to highlight the new link, and type the commands

16:25:41 mircea_popescu: PeterL process http://w.b-a.link/otps/PeterL/last

16:25:42 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSh6ak )

16:25:48 PeterL: aha, now I see it

16:25:55 mircea_popescu: he put that in thar jus fer you :D

16:26:02 PeterL: that's cool, thanks

16:26:17 PeterL: too early, can't read yet

16:26:22 mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> how does it simplify ? << dja see what i mean ?

16:26:57 kakobrekla: ;;later tell ben_vulpes as requested, json; http://w.b-a.link/user/ben_vulpes/json and http://w.b-a.link/trust/ben_vulpes/kakobrekla/json

16:26:58 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KShe9Y )

16:27:00 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KShgie )

16:27:00 gribble: The operation succeeded.

16:27:25 kakobrekla: for which command ?

16:27:48 kakobrekla: i dont have gpg info command

16:27:58 mircea_popescu: i want !gettrust to match any 32 char string as a key rather than a name

16:28:12 mircea_popescu: so that !gettrust mircea_popescu 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 responds with "trust from mircea_popescu to mircea_popescu : so an so"

16:28:13 kakobrekla: yeah

16:28:29 mircea_popescu: that way two steps become one step and that's that.

16:28:29 kakobrekla: ill do it for gettrust but not others

16:28:35 mircea_popescu: all that's needed yes ty.

16:28:39 kakobrekla: k

16:28:44 PeterL: !rate kakobrekla 3 Runs AssWoT, other cool stuff

16:28:44 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6a9d8d2d055d69cf

16:29:09 PeterL: !v assbot:PeterL.rate.kakobrekla.3:ad06b594522d33faffcdf84b870db76a3fbd1fcda55e860ddec83a58b3864168

16:29:09 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 2 to 3 with note: Runs AssWoT, other cool stuff

16:29:25 kakobrekla: amazing

16:29:25 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

16:29:47 PeterL: is scoopbot still running? -hi

16:29:47 scoopbot: Hello PeterL!

16:30:10 PeterL: oh, good

16:30:34 mircea_popescu: are you a slut scoopbot ? -slut

16:30:45 mircea_popescu: a well, so much for ai.

16:42:02 davout: http://i.imgur.com/00C6KHP.jpg

16:42:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSiqKs )

16:42:04 decimation: apparently obama also made remarks on backdoor encryption http://www.lawfareblog.com/2015/01/president-obama-comments-on-back-doors-in-encryption/

16:42:08 assbot: Lawfare › President Obama Comments on Back-doors in Encryption ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSisSw )

16:42:17 decimation: or to be more precise, he failed to make remarks when asked the question

16:42:27 mircea_popescu: ow shit i forgot the porny link.

16:42:27 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/41d822d78facf0f09366bc77bda03093/tumblr_mpfi5pcu321rdn1byo1_500.jpg

16:42:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSiry4 )

16:42:49 decimation: other than vague "we work with companies who also have families", which is exactly the same argument one gets from the local mobster I presume

16:43:26 mircea_popescu: o hai chetty

16:43:47 mircea_popescu: decimation have you seen the "toasting the queen" thing ?

16:43:53 kakobrekla: mircea_popescu perhaps is even easier if i just allow for w.b-a.link/trust/key1/key2/json ?

16:43:55 mircea_popescu: that poor guy, he looks like a neurotic setter.

16:44:02 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla sure!

16:44:14 mircea_popescu: what's assbot key again ?

16:44:24 decimation: eh? I don't think so

16:44:38 mircea_popescu: decimation he goes to toast the queen. the athem's going on so queen ignores him.

16:45:19 mircea_popescu: lotta hay made out of how "the queen snubbed obama'. but the guy's just not very aware. which looked to me like a very very tired man that's being constantly pestered with advice and requirements by about 9 spinster women.

16:45:24 kakobrekla: assbot is 7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C

16:45:26 mircea_popescu: aka, the typical american child of 2010.

16:45:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60869 @ 0.00048599 = 29.5817 BTC [+] {4}

16:45:36 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla works for me, editing this spec.

16:47:09 decimation: yeah, actually from his rambling answer in the linked youtube (starting 45:30), there's very little evidence obama is even aware about the 'backdoor encryption' issue at all

16:47:26 mircea_popescu: honestly, i don't see it's a president's job, that.

16:47:35 mircea_popescu: and it's not how you ask the president that question, either.

16:47:52 decimation: well, certainly it ought to be something he answers in writing, in detail

16:48:10 decimation: the trouble is there's no method to compel an answer

16:48:12 mircea_popescu: this is roughly the equivalent of a company with 10k cab fleet having famously a weak alternator, and some reporter asking the CEO "what about the spinny trick ?"

16:48:42 mircea_popescu: that's not what you say. you say, "as you may be aware, because this so and so weakness in this part of the engine that does that and this, some drivers are so and so.". guy needs an intro.

16:48:56 mircea_popescu: no, there shouldn't be a way to compel an answer. wtf ?!

16:50:03 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/open-deed-system-for-bitcoin-assets/

16:50:35 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla can there be a /n after each otp before encryption pls.

16:50:53 mircea_popescu: currently it bleeds into teh bash. dun wanna put an "echo "/n"" in there .

16:51:39 decimation: well, there's an issue of policy here, which is "is a us person allowed to communicate in a manner outside the possibility of usg interception?"

16:52:34 mircea_popescu: right. that should be the question. like that.

16:52:50 decimation: because the implication of both cameron's and obama's answer is "no"

16:52:52 mircea_popescu: because that's why we go to school : so we can present our inquiries in such a way that OTHER PEOPLE can fucking grok wtf we want to know

16:53:05 decimation: and that appears to completely contradict constitutional and court precedent

16:53:09 decimation: 'because terrorism'

16:53:36 mircea_popescu: decimation i bet you the guy does not even currently ~KNOW~ that that's what's being discussed.

16:53:55 decimation: cameron clearly does, but obama gave no evidence of it

16:54:00 mircea_popescu: because fucking aspie autistic idiot kids + total incompetent "women in journalism" ask dronign, meaningless questions

16:54:36 decimation: note that there are people who could ask such questions

16:54:39 PeterL: http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/15/womens-college-cancels-vagina-monologues

16:54:41 assbot: Women's College Cancels 'Vagina Monologues' Because It Excludes Women Without Vaginas - Hit & Run : Reason.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSjjTd )

16:54:45 decimation: but the press corps is carefully selected to exclude them

16:54:53 mircea_popescu: camweon's a total heel. i have nfi whatabout england produces such contemptible sacks of shit. i thought blair was an exception, but apparently he was just a harbringer.

16:55:06 mircea_popescu: decimation so noted. why don't they ?

16:55:36 mircea_popescu: PeterL obviously, the idiocy's own internal logic is its downfall. kinda the problem with all insanity.

16:55:54 decimation: because the civil service would exclude access to that journalist's organization

16:55:55 PeterL: right, lol

16:56:40 mircea_popescu: decimation i propose excluding that entire thing.

16:57:06 mircea_popescu: !up chetty

16:57:18 mircea_popescu: chetty try it in here so we see ?

16:57:34 chetty: !v assbot:chetty.up:ef543cc75b665e6c256ba24daf682446e46a10a97d497ef0f6258a61671a362

16:57:34 assbot: Invalid verfication string.

16:58:05 PeterL: somebody is trying to hack into chetty's account?

16:58:05 chetty: it doesnt like me

16:58:08 mircea_popescu: that string's too short.

16:58:38 mircea_popescu: missing 9 chars.

16:58:40 chetty: what my key has been hax

16:58:43 mircea_popescu: nah.

16:59:21 kakobrekla: hm

16:59:24 kakobrekla: try that in private ?

16:59:30 mircea_popescu: it's the missing /n at en of otp giving all sorts of people hell

16:59:37 mircea_popescu: because gotta recover the end of the key from their bash string

16:59:45 decimation: cameron said "as technology develops, as the world moves on, we should try to avoid safehavens that can otherwise be created for terrorists to talk to each other"

16:59:49 kakobrekla: otp !up should work only on private

16:59:58 kakobrekla: chan !up is for non otp use

17:00:09 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla im pretty sure i v'd here.

17:00:22 kakobrekla: !up Anduck

17:00:26 kakobrekla: !down Anduck

17:00:30 kakobrekla: !u

17:00:31 kakobrekla: !up

17:00:37 mircea_popescu: !v dude. !v.

17:00:37 assbot: Invalid verfication string.

17:00:45 kakobrekla: a yes, v you can you anywhere

17:00:46 decimation: perhaps that quote should be gossipd's motto

17:01:02 mircea_popescu: decimation could well be lol.

17:01:47 mircea_popescu: decimation: there's a deep hypocrisy here somewhere. apparently the usg entities who are involved with foreign surveillance couldn't possibly do their jobs if they were subject to 'regulation', but of course regular people trying to say, transact bitcoin, have no such reprieve << well, usg entities that deal in bitcoin do have such reprieve currently ?

17:01:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55000 @ 0.00047492 = 26.1206 BTC [-] {2}

17:02:10 decimation: some elements of usg would claim otherwise

17:02:24 mircea_popescu: heck, the us scammer office (previously marshall's office) doesn't have to answer foia if it doesn't feel like it, and can even lie in public statements.

17:02:29 mircea_popescu: come to think about it, so can the da.

17:02:41 mircea_popescu: seems to me like pretty complete legal immunity.

17:03:15 decimation: in theory, usg has no legal immunity (from criminal courts), but in practice it clearly does

17:03:34 mircea_popescu: for as long as that lasts lol.

17:04:22 decimation: in civil court usg has explicit immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_United_States

17:04:24 assbot: Sovereign immunity in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1wik1yA )

17:05:05 mircea_popescu: this is universal.

17:05:15 mircea_popescu: bitbet has it as well. so does every other country.

17:05:16 kakobrekla: mircea_popescu http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8

17:05:18 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1wik9y5 )

17:05:31 mircea_popescu: sweet.

17:05:53 kakobrekla: actually http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8

17:05:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikfpg )

17:05:57 kakobrekla: and http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8/json

17:05:58 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikfFJ )

17:06:17 mircea_popescu: this doesn't look like it should be legal.,

17:06:29 mircea_popescu: it's too complicated.

17:06:33 kakobrekla: yeah ill prolly end up in jail

17:07:31 mircea_popescu: move to hungary. i hear they're going all fascist.

17:07:37 PeterL: there was talk earlier about newspapers. I find good local reporting at http://mlive.com and my sister-in-law writes for http://tooeleonline.com/

17:07:39 assbot: Michigan Local News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - MLive.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikq44 )

17:07:42 assbot: Tooele Transcript Bulletin – News in Tooele, Utah ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikqkq )

17:08:06 mircea_popescu: lol i read that as "toe online" was o.O

17:08:29 PeterL: lol

17:09:36 kakobrekla: mircea_popescu check new line if fixed?

17:09:51 mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 17 hurr

17:09:51 assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.

17:09:58 mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 1.7 hurr

17:09:58 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9f1f7a77bb5ab2a1

17:10:04 kakobrekla: lol.

17:10:06 mircea_popescu: lmao fractions rly ?

17:10:12 kakobrekla: try it

17:10:16 kakobrekla: see what happens

17:10:20 decimation: !rate decimation 0.1 marginal

17:10:20 assbot: You can not rate yourself.

17:10:26 mircea_popescu: fixed tyvm

17:10:40 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.kakobrekla.1.7:b40b7beddd0f6b2f45874cb24cdb3dcd9c051c5c9727a4b306b1f115729982a0

17:10:40 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 5 to 1.7 with note: hurr

17:10:45 kakobrekla: lol!

17:10:45 mircea_popescu: lmao wut

17:10:50 kakobrekla: nfi

17:10:53 PeterL: !rate decimation 0.1 marginal

17:10:53 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9d9547d664ea4ebf

17:10:57 mircea_popescu: this is not a bug.

17:10:59 mircea_popescu: it's a future.

17:11:00 decimation: lol

17:11:14 decimation: me thinks there might be some bugs

17:11:20 PeterL: !v assbot:PeterL.rate.decimation.0.1:17d02404cae9e530dcd5e82a06dad23963c9560e9b0530d785bd01da78a11710

17:11:20 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 0.1 for decimation with note: marginal

17:11:22 mircea_popescu: nah srsly. kakobrekla dun bother fixing

17:11:35 decimation: lol

17:11:51 PeterL: so, if somebody has < 1 L2 rating, they don't get voice? or it just has to be > 0?

17:12:01 mircea_popescu: > 0 i hope.

17:12:01 kakobrekla: !gettrust kakobrekla

17:12:01 assbot: Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user kakobrekla: ∞ | http://w.b-a.link/user/kakobrekla

17:12:19 kakobrekla: hmm

17:12:20 mircea_popescu: !gettrust kakobrekla

17:12:22 assbot: Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user kakobrekla: Level 1: 2, Level 2: 54 via 32 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/mircea_popescu/kakobrekla | http://w.b-a.link/user/kakobrekla

17:12:28 kakobrekla: i think it didnt work

17:12:32 mircea_popescu: o look it rounds ?

17:12:40 PeterL: !gettrust decimation

17:12:40 assbot: Trust relationship from user PeterL to user decimation: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/PeterL/decimation | http://w.b-a.link/user/decimation

17:12:54 PeterL: rounds down?

17:13:26 kakobrekla: no, it did not work, comment is unchanged

17:13:31 mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 5 too much stuff to list. inquire within..

17:13:31 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/721476ec38fdf8b8

17:13:41 PeterL: !rated decimation

17:13:41 assbot: You rated user decimation on 17-Jan-2015, with a rating of 0, and supplied these additional notes: marginal.

17:13:49 PeterL: see, rounded down

17:13:57 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.kakobrekla.5:4854d908f615d0a4735169e307d17352740d17b15f4608f0200d018f6683baad

17:13:58 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 2 to 5 with note: too much stuff to list. inquire within..

17:14:00 mircea_popescu: baad eh ?

17:14:16 mircea_popescu: PeterL i guess 1.7 -> 2 0.1 -> 0

17:14:35 PeterL: so it lets you input a fraction, but converts to int?

17:15:02 kakobrekla: why are you asking me, do you think i know ?

17:15:32 *: kakobrekla goes to look the code

17:15:33 davout: b-a is so mean, kakobrekla makes something nice, everyone tries to break it

17:15:34 PeterL: you made it?

17:15:56 mircea_popescu: it was his twin brother.

17:16:03 PeterL: the more we disclose now leaves less suprises later

17:16:11 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 144 @ 0.00734105 = 1.0571 BTC [-]

17:16:53 mircea_popescu: he's just jealous we care.

17:20:30 kakobrekla: !rate assbot -1.1

17:20:30 assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.

17:20:52 mircea_popescu: nonzero integer

17:20:52 kakobrekla: should say int but whatever.

17:20:56 kakobrekla: heh

17:20:57 mircea_popescu: yeah no big deal

17:21:04 PeterL: so no more decimals?

17:21:07 kakobrekla: NO

17:21:12 kakobrekla: NO DECIMALS FOR YOU

17:21:15 kakobrekla: COME BACK NEXT YEAR

17:21:24 *: PeterL hangs head in shame

17:21:36 fluffypony: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2sqh0a/decentralising_mining_making_p2pool_more/

17:21:38 assbot: Decentralising mining: Making P2Pool more lucrative by coinbaseless fees? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSl3Mn )

17:21:49 fluffypony: "The alert key will be raised by Gavin"

17:21:57 fluffypony: don't worry guize, Gavin will save err'one

17:22:46 mircea_popescu: lol

17:25:12 mircea_popescu: http://38.media.tumblr.com/c137c08dddcf441ea324c1f37c8c8246/tumblr_mnryfvVNSu1ssms30o1_500.gif << post gavin salvation.

17:25:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSliam )

17:27:46 PeterL: !up chetty

17:29:11 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00069999 = 1.4 BTC [-]

17:34:27 PeterL: !up Panadol______

17:35:03 PeterL: hi Panadol______ , what brings you here today?

18:18:42 mircea_popescu: !up bitspill

18:18:47 mircea_popescu: !up McNumpty

18:18:50 mircea_popescu: !up mats

18:19:53 mats: a hello

18:20:08 mircea_popescu: hai,

18:20:09 mats: !s dnssec

18:20:11 assbot: 15 results for 'dnssec' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=dnssec

18:21:38 mircea_popescu: http://www.collarspace.com/personals/v/2177988/details.htm << if anyone in london wants to host a retiring escort...

18:21:39 assbot: Dear All,   My name is Coco, I am a 20 year old Chinese girl and I have just arrived fr ... ( http://bit.ly/1yvXNPk )

18:21:40 mats: http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/01/15/against-dnssec/

18:21:41 assbot: Against DNSSEC — Quarrelsome ... ( http://bit.ly/1yvXP9N )

18:21:53 mircea_popescu: seems you can't be black tho.

18:22:45 mircea_popescu: mats all good points.

18:23:05 mircea_popescu: we stand against dns and against govt-sponsored pki schemes. their combination is not likely to resolve that.

18:23:56 mircea_popescu: (well minus the "modern crypto uses ecdsa")

18:25:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21000 @ 0.00048985 = 10.2869 BTC [+]

18:33:17 ben_vulpes: good morning terrorists

18:33:49 ben_vulpes: http://w.b-a.link/trust/ben_vulpes/kakobrekla/json << lovely, kakobrekla thanks a mil

18:33:51 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1yvZFrl )

18:34:01 mircea_popescu: hi terror brother ben

18:34:40 ben_vulpes: buenos dias

18:34:55 ben_vulpes: the apartment complex drain backed up

18:35:22 ben_vulpes: i awoke to sewage leaking around the bathtub plug actuator

18:35:27 mircea_popescu: this somehow brings to mind iron maiden

18:35:51 ben_vulpes: it's a Good Morning in America™

18:36:02 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dzSEenqc3w

18:36:03 assbot: Iron Maiden - Holy Smoke - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw03pT )

18:36:44 mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel

18:36:50 mircea_popescu: you know you can assbot selfvoice ?

18:36:56 gabriel_laddel: yeah

18:37:10 mircea_popescu: "I've lived in filth, I've lived in sin, but I still smell cleaner than the shit you're in"

18:38:48 gabriel_laddel: Any #-assets members who will admit to being a fan of supreme commander or total annihilation?

18:39:08 mircea_popescu: total commander ?

18:39:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25700 @ 0.00049959 = 12.8395 BTC [+] {2}

18:39:43 ben_vulpes: supreme annihilation's a pretty fun game

18:39:52 ben_vulpes: need the right partners tho

18:40:02 *: ben_vulpes eyes p. bahaha

18:40:12 ben_vulpes: http://fraudsters.com/2015/open-deed-system-for-bitcoin-assets/ << wish i had time for this one

18:40:13 assbot: [OPEN] Deed system for #bitcoin-assets pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw0HUh )

18:40:14 mircea_popescu: actually the supreme commander thing looks pretty slick.

18:40:14 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mZZiI4ShQ

18:40:16 assbot: Total Annihilation Intro (brighter) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw0IaT )

18:40:19 mircea_popescu: somehow i've never played either.

18:43:50 gabriel_laddel: they're in the same vein of games such as diablo I&II, baulders gate, path of exile etc. Not in terms of gameplay, but overall attention to detail and cohesive structure.

18:44:41 mircea_popescu: !up Tykling

18:45:21 mircea_popescu: they look more like tower defense / dune2 sort of thing to me /

18:45:34 mircea_popescu: baldur's gate btw!

18:47:35 gabriel_laddel: oh ty.

18:48:16 undata: ben_vulpes: we have a buddy with an extensible IRC bot; how's that raw tx backport coming?

18:48:34 undata: er archaeology and re-implementation

18:49:10 undata: actually, it appears it would only have to be aware that a tx has occurred, not send any

18:51:24 ben_vulpes: undata: if you're interested in implementing, talk to MP for the spec

18:51:37 ben_vulpes: i don't really know how the transmission of btc is supposed to work for the thing

18:51:50 undata: it'd be neat if the thing paid its own bills out of its fees on some btc vps

18:51:51 ben_vulpes: probably want to decouple bot from funding actions

18:52:00 ben_vulpes: anyways

18:52:09 ben_vulpes: tx backport archaeology's an interesting thing

18:52:36 ben_vulpes: i'm starting to see some of the rationale behind the wallet paradigm - creating transactions for signing requires being able to retrieve arbitrary transactions from the blockchain

18:52:43 danielpbarron: i'd say TA is more like starcraft

18:53:17 ben_vulpes: far easier for the people working on it at the time to make some silly assumptions about what txns a user would want to sign, and then keep those txns on hand

18:53:54 ben_vulpes: creating a raw transaction requires having the previous transaction in hand in full at runtime, so as to extract the pubkey from the previous transaction

18:54:05 ben_vulpes: while this isn't *strictly* necessary, it's how things work now.

18:54:42 ben_vulpes: i don't know that a bitcoind would be able to verify a transaction without access to the full inputs

18:55:29 danielpbarron: i thought all you need to know is the tx id of the outputs you want to use, the private keys of the coresponding addresses, a destination, and an amount

18:55:57 ben_vulpes: to use the modern txn api, yeah

18:56:21 ben_vulpes: but!

18:56:58 ben_vulpes: to verify that you've created a valid transaction, you have to have the entirety of the previous output on hand to examine the public key

18:57:36 ben_vulpes: otherwise you just sign hash of txn, index in txn, and have no way to double check that you produced a valid signature corresponding to the pubkey to which those funds were transmitted originally.

18:57:39 ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: make sense?

18:58:52 ben_vulpes: (one can sign anything at any time - that's not the problem. the problems crop up in a) knowing the sigs are valid and b) the multi-input, multi-privkey transaction generation use-case: how am i to know which privkeys are to be used to sign which inputs, and furthermore [and somewhat recursively] how do i know those signatures to be valid?)

18:58:56 danielpbarron: what are you signing it with?

18:59:08 ben_vulpes: a user-supplied privkey.

18:59:19 danielpbarron: the one that goes with the pubkey of the output right/

18:59:27 ben_vulpes: sure

18:59:38 ben_vulpes: how do i get the pubkey for a given output?

19:00:31 ben_vulpes: say i have the transaction hash (aka txid) and output index - how do i get the pubkey those coins were sent to?

19:00:39 danielpbarron: this is for deedbot right? don't you already know what the last pubkey was?

19:00:42 ben_vulpes: no no no

19:00:50 ben_vulpes: raw transactions

19:01:01 ben_vulpes: *entirely* different project

19:01:55 danielpbarron: oh well yeah you need to know the whole blockchain to verify a tx in that case

19:02:36 danielpbarron: i tried to make a raw tx once, got rejected by my own node for having too small a fee

19:02:43 asciilifeform: sorta the point of having blockchain, no ?

19:03:07 ben_vulpes: "whole blockchain" << and more specifically, a trivial lookup of txids

19:04:05 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc, i did mention 'can pull up arbitrary tx' as part of what a 'whole bitcoin node' has to do

19:04:24 asciilifeform: perhaps i should have given more proof

19:04:26 *: asciilifeform lazy

19:05:07 *: ben_vulpes pissing on fences

19:05:20 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes not dead, therefore grew stronger

19:05:42 ben_vulpes: learned some

19:06:06 ben_vulpes: brain now contains c++, not sure if improvement

19:06:06 asciilifeform: at any rate, there is really no way to understand the thing other than - reading it

19:06:09 asciilifeform: however unpleasant

19:06:36 ben_vulpes: <danielpbarron> i tried to make a raw tx once, got rejected by my own node for having too small a fee << heinous

19:20:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52300 @ 0.00050221 = 26.2656 BTC [+] {3}

19:21:43 davout: danielpbarron: iirc with the raw tx thing you can send zero fees without problem, there's however a safeguard against sending a massive fee

19:36:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 9 @ 0.125 = 1.125 BTC [-]

19:47:11 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> danielpbarron: make sense? << yes, that's what that is.

20:06:12 davout: https://github.com/cinchrb/cinch/commit/496f026439ab6c421ac229a34246bf26f2b4daa6 <<< feminists...

20:06:13 assbot: Remove gender specific language · 496f026 · cinchrb/cinch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1CaWc2h )

20:10:38 undata: davout: it's ruby; let them have it

20:11:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55900 @ 0.00048731 = 27.2406 BTC [-] {2}

20:13:17 davout: undata: i like ruby :)

20:15:24 undata: eh alright

20:23:50 ben_vulpes: nevermind that them/their is actually incorrect grammar if not used in reference to more than one person

20:26:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45900 @ 0.00048471 = 22.2482 BTC [-] {2}

20:27:41 davout: ben_vulpes: wasn't sure about that, I assumed a weakness in my own english since no one brought that up, but it did sound slightly weird, thanks for clearing it up!

20:31:54 Apocalyptic: looks like a valid "singular they" to me, "valid" in the grammatical sense

20:33:55 ben_vulpes: it's only ever pushed by "anti sexists"

20:34:00 ben_vulpes: as a valid construct.

20:34:13 ben_vulpes: a plural cannot by definition be a singular thing.

20:34:24 ben_vulpes: if you don't know the gender, say "his or her"

20:34:29 ben_vulpes: "their" implies more than one party.

20:36:34 punkman: it works :)

20:37:13 punkman: http://i.imgur.com/Pg5CRSB.png

20:37:15 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ud5dqR )

20:38:26 punkman: ben_vulpes, I think "their/they" was being used long before the queers adopted it

20:40:54 ben_vulpes: "pushed by" not "initiated by". furthermore, doesn't make the usage somehow acceptable.

20:41:18 ben_vulpes: not that anyone should expect a "developer" to understand how to write english well - it's hard and takes a lot of dedicated study.

20:41:57 ben_vulpes: as someone somewhere once said "i don't hire developers who spell well, i hire developers who mispell consistently."

20:43:05 asciilifeform: it's hard and takes a lot of dedicated study << only for folks who do not read for pleasure in the particular language.

20:43:44 kakobrekla: fuck i read

20:43:47 kakobrekla: and i like it

20:43:52 kakobrekla: still spell for shit

20:43:57 kakobrekla: spill i mean

20:44:01 kakobrekla: peal

20:44:06 kakobrekla: speal

20:46:03 davout: kakobrekla: would it be hard to make links such as w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/291237F37A2C023CADBED52513288EAB01713428/json work with keyids as well as fingerprints?

20:46:18 kakobrekla: keyids are evil

20:47:01 davout: yea, i was reading gpg's rfc yesterday and found out that they aren't supposed to be relied upon for unicity

20:47:42 *: kakobrekla has nfi why nano keeps keyid field in his db

20:48:08 davout: thing is, i was also reading mp's deedbot spec, the part i was wondering about was the "extract keyid from signed message, and use it in w.b-a.link URL"

20:48:55 kakobrekla: replace keyid with fp ?

20:48:59 davout: kakobrekla: "nfi why nano keeps keyid field in his db" <<< if you keep the fingerprint you're automatically keeping the key id as far as i understand since the key id is simply the second half of the fpr

20:49:13 kakobrekla: last 16 chars iirc

20:49:16 kakobrekla: out of 40

20:49:40 davout: "replace keyid with fp ?" <<< sure, but how do i get the fpr from a signed message? gpg -v -v will just return the key id

20:50:09 kakobrekla: --fingerprint ?

20:51:55 davout: that would work when listing keys, i can't seem to get it work when piping a clearsigned msg to "gpg -v -v --fingerprint"

20:52:05 punkman: --with-fingerprint maybe

20:52:08 davout: s/it xork/it to work/

20:52:11 davout: derp

20:52:23 kakobrekla: cunt spill fer shut!

20:52:51 undata: ben_vulpes: them being the feminists you pedant

20:52:57 undata: :p

20:53:33 kakobrekla: davout idk worst case some awk and pipes ?

20:53:41 undata: ben_vulpes: hah oh the commit

20:53:48 undata: carry on then

20:54:16 davout: punkman: doth not work

20:54:24 undata: as for english as I delve into a few other languages on duolingo I find my native tongue ever more horrifying

20:54:40 undata: a shantytown cobbled together with the leftovers of other cultures

20:54:52 davout: if i don't have the key in my own keyring it doesn't seem possible to extract the fingerprint from a signed message

20:54:58 undata: however thouse german articles are going to do me in

20:55:55 kakobrekla: davout you can search keyserver perhps, but starting the search wherever with keyid instead of fp is not best idea

20:56:05 Apocalyptic: davout, yeah but anyway you would have the key in your keyring since you have to validate the sig

20:56:10 Apocalyptic: so this is a false problem

20:56:17 davout: it's always possible to query gribble to get the mapping, but that seems... suboptimal

20:56:26 punkman: davout, there is some combination of options that will do it for sure, you can look in python-gnupg

20:56:28 kakobrekla: the point is MAPPING is bad

20:56:30 undata: davout: you're not going to write it in ruby are you?

20:56:32 undata: pls no

20:56:33 davout: Apocalyptic: "you have to validate the sig" <<< no i don't think so

20:56:37 kakobrekla: doesnt matter WHERE you do it

20:56:47 undata: I've got a friend with a decent golang bot on github

20:57:05 kakobrekla: lol

20:57:10 Apocalyptic: davout, wait, so you're going to publish the deed without checking the signature is legit ?

20:57:37 davout: Apocalyptic: yeah, i think mp mentioned somewhere that verifying the sig is not necessary

20:57:41 Apocalyptic: oh ok

20:58:22 *: undata considers the silence an affirmative...

20:58:33 punkman: pretty sure it has to be verified

20:58:38 davout: kakobrekla: i agree, it's bad if you rely on keyids to actually identify the key, but if you output the actual full fingerprints in the returned json one can make an educated choice

20:58:51 davout: punkman: mebbe i'm wrong here, lemme try and find a reference

20:58:54 Apocalyptic: sounds to me like a dubious choice but heh, if mp sez so

20:59:11 Apocalyptic: I can see a quite unpleasant spam attack otherwise

20:59:33 kakobrekla: which json is that ?

21:00:00 davout: punkman Apocalyptic http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#815284

21:00:00 assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 00:59:50; mircea_popescu: this way you don't have to keep updated keyrings locally or verify signatures in any wya

21:00:06 kakobrekla: you mean you input keyid and i output fp

21:00:42 kakobrekla: you still need to check i didnt give you garbage no

21:00:44 davout: yeah, i put fpr or keyid in url, you spit out the fpr, actually no that's dumb

21:00:45 undata: https://github.com/kyleterry/tenyks << use this

21:00:47 assbot: kyleterry/tenyks · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ud8k1W )

21:01:07 davout: lemme think moar

21:01:30 kakobrekla: undata is it decoupled?

21:01:36 undata: yeah

21:01:45 undata: you'd write the deed bit as a plugin

21:02:07 kakobrekla: not what i mean

21:02:11 punkman: as a reminder, code is here https://github.com/extempore/deedbundler

21:02:12 assbot: extempore/deedbundler · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ud8wOD )

21:02:28 punkman: (some updates and docs coming in next couple days)

21:03:23 kakobrekla: decoupled bot means that the connection process is seperate from all others

21:03:32 davout: what *is* specified is that the bot must verify that the signer has L1/L2 assbot trust, looks like this can't be verified correctly without either relying on a keyid as an actual key unique identifier OR keeping a synchronized keyring and actually verifying the signature

21:03:37 undata: kakobrekla: yes, that's what I meant

21:03:46 undata: the networking core is one thing, and plugins communicate with that over redis

21:04:08 undata: plugins can be started and stopped independently of the core

21:04:10 kakobrekla: redis eh

21:04:11 punkman: kakobrekla: can haz asswot dump?

21:04:26 *: kakobrekla will one day recode assbot with zmq

21:04:59 kakobrekla: punkman ill set up a daily dump to files.b-a

21:05:11 punkman: kewl

21:07:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25000 @ 0.00049101 = 12.2753 BTC [+]

21:10:00 Apocalyptic: davout, so you're taking the deedbot project ?

21:12:06 undata: to summarize what's desired, the bot accepts signed documents from wot members in good standing only, publishes them by burning a small amount of btc and uploading to a site?

21:12:42 davout: Apocalyptic: i've started poking at it yep

21:13:01 davout: undata: it doesn't burn the bitcoins

21:13:12 davout: other than that your understanding seems correct to me

21:13:23 undata: ah you're right

21:13:29 undata: the hash is the privkey

21:13:31 undata: derp

21:14:19 undata: seems like the parties wishing to publish should provide coin to the deedbot operator

21:14:21 davout: not really sure why it has to be restricted to asseteers but w/e

21:14:43 undata: davout: the deeds are presumably for business arrangements

21:14:57 undata: the wot is an excellent tool for making good decisions about establishing those

21:15:14 davout: oh, and it's ppl who have L1/L2 trust from assbot, a subset from the wot members sez the spec

21:15:33 punkman: ben_vulpes, this might be of interest http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/01/14#l1421274866

21:15:35 assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1udaiPI )

21:16:23 davout: undata: "the wot is an excellent tool for making good decisions about establishing those" <<< sure, but i'm not sure why the notarization *tool* would enforce that, i defo don't feel strongly enough about it to argue the point either way

21:16:42 undata: davout: not my rationale; speculating on what it might be

21:17:55 Apocalyptic: davout, re "looks like this can't be verified correctly without either relying on a keyid as an actual key unique identifier OR keeping a synchronized keyring and actually verifying the signature" I suspect there actually is, playing with the source atm

21:20:08 Apocalyptic: grep "get_short_fingerprint" in verify.c and see the related call get_fingerprint_hexstring() which supposedly could get the full fp

21:20:30 davout: Apocalyptic: looking at the rfc to see the clearsigned message structure

21:24:53 davout: Apocalyptic: RFC 5.2.2 sez a signature packet contains "Eight-octet Key ID of signer"

21:25:46 Apocalyptic: then it's settled I guess

21:26:15 kakobrekla: basically it says you are fucked

21:26:22 davout: o/

21:26:42 davout: pretty much

21:27:53 davout: so basically the options are

21:27:56 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/01/british-bankers-association-bitcoin-a-threat-to-sterling-may-aid-terrorists/

21:28:17 davout: - alter spec and add a gribble dependency

21:28:18 Apocalyptic: I wonder what the behaviour is if you have two pubkeys in your keyring with the same eight bytes key id and you're trying to verify a message

21:28:37 davout: - maintain a full asswot keyring on deedbot's server

21:28:59 davout: - not give a fuck about who signed a to-be-notarized blob

21:29:08 punkman: Apocalyptic: you can find keys with keyid collisions here https://github.com/coruus/cooperpair

21:29:09 assbot: coruus/cooperpair · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1udc43q )

21:29:13 davout: - allow unsigned blobs to be notarized

21:29:21 Apocalyptic: the second seems like a reasonable choice

21:30:01 davout: - the last option is kakobrekla getting some moar work

21:30:21 Apocalyptic: punkman, thanks for the link, but I mean that there should be something in the clearsigned message structures that clearly identifies the key that produced it

21:30:40 punkman: I think there is, but not 100% sure

21:30:49 davout: well, apparently not

21:30:54 Apocalyptic: well according to what davout said there is just the 8 bytes

21:31:02 Apocalyptic: which is clearly not a canonical identification

21:31:35 Apocalyptic: I confess that surprises me, had imagined the full fp would be somewhere

21:32:14 davout: looked at version 3 signature packets, mebbe version 4 includes them

21:35:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 175 @ 0.00651001 = 1.1393 BTC [+]

21:40:50 davout: the version 4 signature subpacket spec isn't that clear to me, maybe asciilifeform has some insight

21:41:26 davout: kakobrekla: is there a way to easily get an array of asswotted fingerprints?

21:41:29 punkman: dabout, just tested it http://dpaste.com/3PDW8YM

21:41:30 assbot: dpaste: 3PDW8YM ... ( http://bit.ly/1uddP0x )

21:41:53 kakobrekla: daiily db dump?

21:42:33 davout: punkman: well, you're requesting a public key, so of course it works :-)

21:43:44 undata: the dump seems like the most straightforward thing to me

21:43:58 undata: signed by kakobrekla of course

21:44:06 davout: kakobrekla: if a 24h delay between asswot registration and ability to notarize is acceptable that would work

21:45:21 davout: it still boils down to a fpr <-> keyid mapping tho, not that this is evil _for this particular purpose_ but still

21:45:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26850 @ 0.00049379 = 13.2583 BTC [+] {2}

21:45:38 kakobrekla: the problem with signing that dump is automation and keeping the key on boxen

21:46:25 davout: kakobrekla: tbh if verifying the signature on notarized data is not considered necessary i don't think it's a big issue if the dump is unsigned

21:46:55 punkman: davout: you are right, doesn't work with clearsigned message

21:46:55 undata: why is it not necessary to verify signatures before notarizing?

21:47:25 punkman: so I guess v4 sigs don't have fingerprints either

21:47:39 davout: but if you'd be ok with having some API call simply return the array of fingerprints in realtime, that'd be the easiest deedbot-wise :D

21:48:36 undata: davout: isn't the whole point of a notary verifying the identities of the parties involved then verifying that an agreement has taken place?

21:48:41 undata: or have I missed something

21:48:47 davout: undata: i didn't spec it, ask mp for the rationale -> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#815284

21:48:47 assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 00:59:50; mircea_popescu: this way you don't have to keep updated keyrings locally or verify signatures in any wya

21:49:21 davout: undata: the notary doesn't enforce the agreement so why bother verifying the signature at all

21:49:52 undata: well he's saying ask gribble

21:49:54 undata: that makes sense

21:50:08 davout: for all i care the bot could hang out in -assets, and notarize whatever is asked from whoever has voice, sounds like the simplest straight-to-the-point approach to me

21:50:18 undata: I don't like it

21:50:39 davout: well, let's light some jasmine candles and talk about our feelings then

21:51:12 undata: so you're going to rely on the IRC protocol and not gpg?

21:51:21 undata: the fuck is the point of even having gpg involved then?

21:51:40 undata: and how does one move the process to another protocol later

21:51:43 undata: that's dumb

21:53:19 davout: because the notary doesn't enforce or verify anything, just certifies that something existed at some point of time

21:53:40 undata: surely one can do better than stamping any turd that comes along

21:53:43 undata: anyhow do it your way

21:53:54 undata: I'm hacking on it as well

21:54:03 davout: lol

21:55:02 davout: the thing is that, whatever turd comes along is necessarily given by someone who has voice in assets, so by very definition, not a turd

21:55:25 undata: davout: because no one ever once was opped in a chan that shouldn't have been

21:55:29 undata: use your head.

21:56:54 davout: meh, it's not like that person could steal stuff or anything

21:57:22 undata: says the bridge builder to the parties on either side "eh, fuck it, whatever"

21:57:38 davout: i mean, even in that case, what's the worst that could happen? specifically?

21:59:37 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3596 @ 0.00068279 = 2.4553 BTC [-] {12}

22:01:08 undata: davout: a notary is not just a person with a clock and eyes

22:01:39 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3933 @ 0.0006596 = 2.5942 BTC [-] {21}

22:01:53 undata: part of the service is actually having an idea of what has transpired, sort of renting out your good name

22:02:05 undata: ? and ? did *whatever*

22:02:09 undata: ^not a valuable service

22:02:31 undata: or I'll go sit on a park bench and call myself a notary

22:03:41 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1925 @ 0.00063202 = 1.2166 BTC [-] {2}

22:04:11 davout: look, there is a reason it's called deedbot, and not notarybot, it's none of deedbot's business to know what happened, for all you know the notarized stuff could perfectly be encrypted

22:04:28 davout: what then? you refuse to process it?

22:04:55 undata: two parties presented themselves to me and both said "I agree to whatevers in this blob"

22:05:04 undata: I have witnessed that fact and I sign and note the time

22:05:07 undata: yes that's fine

22:05:32 davout: that's not what tell you, they tell you 'this blob existed at that point of time, what's in it is none of your business'

22:06:29 undata: agreeing it existed is an agreement...

22:06:32 undata: you are being dense; go hack

22:06:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27509 @ 0.00049673 = 13.6645 BTC [+]

22:07:11 undata: whether it says inside "A owes B his kidney" or "The sky is blue" both can be held to account that they have made the utterance by the existince of the thing

22:07:19 undata: less so if the witness did not bother to verify identity

22:10:43 davout: the point is to timestamp stuff, not hold anyone accountable to anybody other than by the actual parties to the contract, what's so hard about that?

22:11:40 undata: no, it's to timestamp that an agreement occurred between two identified parties

22:11:46 undata: I'm done arguing

22:12:00 davout: lol, where does the spec even mention a second party?

22:12:15 undata: davout: why are they published?

22:12:26 davout: lol yes

22:12:35 undata: ... that's not an answer to my question

22:12:44 undata: why does one publish the signed blobs

22:12:51 undata: what's the point of that? in human terms?

22:13:00 davout: umm... to timestamp them

22:13:04 undata: god you're dumb

22:13:48 undata: davout: what is the point of publishing a scientific work in a credible journal?

22:14:41 davout: i think we should've stuck to lighting these jasmine candles :-)

22:15:17 undata: davout: lest you have to think about anything other than rubbing some ruby together

22:15:31 undata: the reputation of the orifice matters and is maintained by not shoveling shit out into the public forum

22:18:18 davout: ...

22:20:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8391 @ 0.00049623 = 4.1639 BTC [-]

22:22:50 undata: davout: surely you understand that the wot quantifies what a deed may provide historicity

22:23:00 undata: say you and I make an agreement and you fail to execute your side

22:23:02 undata: I negrate you

22:23:51 undata: doesn't our agreement being public and with firm verification of identity bolster my claim among peers that you're a knucklehead?

22:33:09 asciilifeform: davout: the version 4 signature subpacket spec << what do you want to know about it ?

22:33:26 asciilifeform: davout: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880

22:33:28 assbot: RFC 4880 - OpenPGP Message Format ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAOiOa )

22:34:54 davout: asciilifeform: yeah, that's what i was reading, it mentions user ids in the subpackets spec, but i'm unsure whether that includes an actual key fingerprint, i tend to understand that it doesn't

22:35:41 davout: (pretty interesting read btw)

22:35:50 asciilifeform: davout: nope. key id.

22:36:28 kakobrekla: any good reason for this ?

22:36:43 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: none afaik. the standard simply sucks.

22:37:14 kakobrekla: i was afraid you gonna say that.

22:37:29 davout: lol

22:37:40 asciilifeform: 'it saves a few bytes' probably sounded like 'good reason' to the authors.

22:38:07 kakobrekla: nsa only has so much disk space.

22:38:19 asciilifeform: or, alternatively, like the choice of 'aes' over the stronger but 'slower' 'serpent' cipher, it was merely orders from lizardhitler.

22:38:34 davout: "Implementations SHOULD NOT assume that Key IDs are unique", so let's just include that in the signature packet. derp

22:39:09 asciilifeform: davout: a little subtler than that. the original assumption was that you would only ever verify sigs from folks you had a proper key party with

22:39:23 asciilifeform: and hence have a reasonably confident idea of genuine key for.

22:39:23 davout: which makes sense

22:40:01 asciilifeform: hence the 'key id' was meant as merely a soft handle to quickly pick out the right pubkey.

22:40:04 kakobrekla: fuckin key party and assumption of socialization

22:40:09 asciilifeform: rather than something to resist attack of any kind

22:41:08 asciilifeform: original pgp was not an apparatus for one-off deals with strangers, but something to use between friends, as i understand.

22:41:11 davout: and i guess even in the case of a keyid collision that has no impact on actual signature verification

22:41:18 asciilifeform: davout: correct

22:42:12 asciilifeform: davout: assuming it was an accidental collision, and that you have not entered a properly, maliciously crafted pubkey into your keychain that it -will- verify with

22:42:15 asciilifeform: if that makes sense

22:42:47 asciilifeform: the keychain thing nicely parallels ben_vulpes's discussion re: bitcoind wallets

22:43:02 asciilifeform: if it seems asinine, it is because it was designed for a certain pattern of use, which does not apply now.

22:43:18 davout: that doesn't make much sense to me, how would a maliciously crafted pubkey even verify the signature?

22:43:37 asciilifeform: davout: only if the signature was in fact made with evilkey

22:44:52 asciilifeform: davout: picture if you were trying to pass a document off as having been signed by X. you generate a key with the correct name, etc. and colliding keyid, then try to pass it off as the genuine article; then, when chumps swallow it, sign with it

22:44:57 asciilifeform: and naturally the sigs will verify

22:45:35 asciilifeform: this is considerably harder (in practice, likely impossible) with fp instead of id

22:46:10 asciilifeform: but rfc4880 does not specify that fp ought to be embedded in sigs.

22:46:28 asciilifeform: and so they weren't.

22:46:30 asciilifeform: hence this thread.

22:48:14 davout: the signature verification would in this case (assuming both keys are in the keyring) yield both a pass and a fail, right?

22:49:03 davout: ;;calc 2^64

22:49:04 gribble: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.

22:49:08 davout: ;;calc 2**64

22:49:08 gribble: 18446744073709551616

22:49:54 davout: that would be the number of distinct keyids, not sure how practically feasible it would be to bruteforce a collision

22:53:22 Apocalyptic: 2**64 is well within reach of a supercomputer

22:53:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35709 @ 0.00050049 = 17.872 BTC [+]

22:55:18 Apocalyptic: just take the bitcoin network, it performs 2**64 hashes in 60 seconds at current hashrate if I'm not mistaken

22:56:22 davout: i see

22:56:26 Apocalyptic: and that's just for a preimage, if you want a collision the birthday paradox will tell you that you need much less than that

22:57:31 ben_vulpes: <kakobrekla> [] fuckin key party and assumption of socialization << another kakobrekla line worth reposting

22:57:35 davout: well, if you want to pull off an attack on someone you'll want to get a collision with a specific key id

23:01:19 punkman: davout, see cooper-pair link, has various PoCs

23:01:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11847 @ 0.00048378 = 5.7313 BTC [-]

23:01:43 davout: !s cooper-pair

23:01:43 assbot: 0 results for 'cooper-pair' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cooper-pair

23:03:15 Apocalyptic: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/16/obama-sides-with-cameron-in-encryption-fight/ // to paraphrase ascii, mega-lol

23:03:17 assbot: Obama Sides with Cameron in Encryption Fight - Digits - WSJ ... ( http://bit.ly/1CASWeV )

23:09:58 asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: 'key escrow' crapolade went out with the first clinton presidency, will probably return with the second.

23:10:04 asciilifeform: (third)

23:12:55 Apocalyptic: can't wait

23:16:26 davout: "sure you can escrow my key, wanna make sure it's mine? just check the keyid"

23:16:28 undata: asciilifeform: after the next attack they'll ram all kind of laws through around weakining crypto

23:16:42 undata: *ening

23:17:13 undata: because terrorists can't find an old copy of gpg?

23:18:04 asciilifeform: undata: at some point it will be forbidden in usa to sell or even own a computer which can meaningfully run classic gpg

23:19:25 asciilifeform: this is a considerably less-fantastic scenario than it would have appeared to be in the '90s, because of the 'nintendoization' of computing. gpg simply won't appear in the apple and microshit 'app stores' and thereby vanish

23:19:48 nanotube: kakobrekla: i have no idea why i keep keyid as a separate column in db either. probably something grandfathered in...

23:20:08 kakobrekla: :)

23:27:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37900 @ 0.0004938 = 18.715 BTC [+] {2}

23:29:21 undata: asciilifeform: not far-fetched at all

23:40:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9154 @ 0.00048378 = 4.4285 BTC [-]

23:51:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8507 @ 0.00050465 = 4.2931 BTC [+] {3}

23:57:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65131 @ 0.00048038 = 31.2876 BTC [-] {2}