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Transcript for 17-03-2016, 917 lines:

00:00:06 mod6: ok and this goes back to the discussion this am right? re: sha(header+nonce) AND sha(digest+nonce) ? or did i read that wrong?

00:00:25 jurov: how is the digest from past blocks done?

00:00:35 mircea_popescu: it does. i specifically left the "hashing" undefined. it can be defined so both use sha3. or first stays as is and 2nd sha3. etc.

00:00:39 mircea_popescu: this is a twistable knob.

00:00:49 mircea_popescu: jurov the digest from past blocks is done like so :

00:01:45 mircea_popescu: out of every Nth preceding block, the nonce-th byte is put in a string ; the combine hashed.

00:01:57 mircea_popescu: N is another twistable knob. can be 1, can be whatever.

00:02:25 mircea_popescu: see footnote 2, example : http://fraudsters.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#footnote_1_64828

00:02:26 assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1S52R51 )

00:02:56 mod6: ah right.

00:03:15 mircea_popescu: and yet another twistable knob exists : the nonce may be shifted before taking the nonceth element.

00:03:49 mod6: it's too bad we're so time constrained on this, it'd be nice to see a poc of both : with shifting and without.

00:04:14 mircea_popescu: knob 1 above decides whether to obsolete current miners entirely or just partially, and is a [true] soft vs hard fork ; knob 2 decides how much i/o pressure to put on relay nodes ; knob 3 decides how much relay work to require in the mix.

00:04:18 mod6: well, i guess one could just add in the shifting and then make it a toggleable things.

00:04:24 mod6: -s

00:05:06 mircea_popescu: mod6 it's not entirely impossible to make the shifting a function of difficulty differential (note that there isn't a rule BOTH hashes have to be under THE SAME number. if there's two numbers, you could have an equalizer algo that does the shift moving)

00:05:14 mircea_popescu: but, obviously - the more moving parts, the more problems.

00:05:22 jurov: well then my comment still applies - miner can keep the nonce constant and churn hash1 by changing one transaction in a cycle

00:06:04 mircea_popescu: jurov how ? his hash2 won't change.

00:07:18 jurov: ah that

00:07:28 mircea_popescu: my modeling shows it'd be way the fuck cheaper to calculate nonce blocks than to try and churn merkel trees

00:07:40 mircea_popescu: now, your observation is correct in that this possibility puts a hard limit on how much miners can be raped.

00:07:49 mircea_popescu: but i don't think SUCH hard rape is contemplated at all.

00:07:53 mircea_popescu: just... a little breather for nodes.

00:08:19 mircea_popescu: the thing is, currently nodes only need disk ; cpu is wasted. ideally a node should use both, so that it makes sense to keep boxes as relay nodes.

00:09:59 mod6: all of this good information needs to go somewhere other than the logs.

00:10:16 mod6: we need like a tmsr stenographer.

00:10:29 mircea_popescu: lol. i dunno, there is the search here.

00:10:36 jurov: there's wiki

00:10:47 mod6: yeah, but i can't ever find shit. and these details are too important to be lost.

00:10:53 mircea_popescu: yeah.

00:11:11 mod6: unless we use a flag, like BUTTSECKS.

00:11:26 mod6: then we search for that flag, and we see exactly where we should for whatever important topic.

00:11:34 mircea_popescu: wrap every important detail in a buttsekcs condom ?

00:11:41 mod6: hah, yes.

00:12:21 mod6: dare i say, that I would lay out 10 BTC, 2 BTC per year for someone to handle this task.

00:13:08 mod6: hell, i'd do it myself, but there's no way i can keep up with that too.

00:13:27 mircea_popescu: first foundation expenditure ?

00:13:37 mod6: naw, this is a mod6 request.

00:13:52 mircea_popescu: so do it on the foudnation and donate the needed funds to it.

00:13:57 mod6: the foundation makes money by not spending any.

00:13:57 mircea_popescu: better that way.

00:14:09 mircea_popescu: and holy shit b-a is hiring like crazy, where are all the people looking for jerbs,

00:14:56 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> so do it on the foudnation and donate the needed funds to it. << i guess i could just do that.

00:15:21 mircea_popescu: be like rockefeller you know ?

00:15:23 mod6: ben_vulpes: any thoughts on this? If I dump 10 BTC to the foundation, will you approve 2BTC/yr for a stenographer?

00:15:58 mircea_popescu: course the other end is harder. who can even do a good job of this.

00:16:08 mod6: bingo.

00:16:11 mod6: hanbot

00:16:17 mircea_popescu: hm

00:16:22 mod6: jurov (who's got too much other shit to do)

00:16:33 mircea_popescu: yeah maybe she could huh

00:16:44 mod6: asciilifeform (who is one arm shy of this job)

00:16:58 mod6: shinohai perhaps

00:17:30 mod6: I'd even say TomServo or thestringpuller would be good candidates as well. Any wot regs.

00:18:38 *: shinohai applies

00:18:45 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1434765 <<< blawg?

00:18:45 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 00:09:59; mod6: all of this good information needs to go somewhere other than the logs.

00:18:45 mircea_popescu: yeah but it's a certain sort of job for a certain sorta person.

00:18:50 mircea_popescu: shinohai you got the patience to stick with it ?

00:19:00 mircea_popescu: davout by all means, you got one neh ? :D

00:19:11 shinohai: what would stenographer need to do?

00:19:20 davout: i saw this one coming :D

00:19:25 mircea_popescu: write down a summary of all the important shit.

00:19:30 mod6: The key to this job is to save the really succint details of technical discussions surrouding future development. Needs just the right amount of information, too much will be cumbersome.

00:19:49 mircea_popescu: sorta like a careful bash of technical discussions rather than lulz.

00:19:54 mod6: right.

00:19:58 mod6: that exactly.

00:20:04 davout: !b 3

00:20:05 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0TKYJM2.txt )

00:20:05 shinohai: so make a state of therealbitcoin address for dummies?

00:20:08 mircea_popescu: lol

00:20:11 mod6: heheheh

00:20:29 mircea_popescu: shinohai no more like keep the notes organised so mod6 doesn't go blind looking for where the fuck i said about knobs and where was it.

00:20:51 mod6: shinohai: eh, I'd say more like a really well kept-up wiki, but yea, that's kinda the idea.

00:20:57 mircea_popescu: actially a wiki format prolly IS best for this,

00:21:05 mircea_popescu: because lets people to fix your shit if needed.

00:21:10 mircea_popescu: mod6 word.


00:21:27 mircea_popescu: right before i get to say them!

00:21:29 mod6: *nod* yeah, needs to be editable in a way incase of mis-quote or something.

00:21:31 jurov: like... http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/tmsr

00:21:32 assbot: tmsr [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1XYs04a )

00:21:34 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1434782 << l0l i know where

00:21:34 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 00:14:09; mircea_popescu: and holy shit b-a is hiring like crazy, where are all the people looking for jerbs,

00:21:42 asciilifeform: they are in my yard

00:21:50 asciilifeform: eating from plastic bowl

00:21:57 mircea_popescu: cats !?

00:22:00 mircea_popescu: yo cwazy.

00:22:02 asciilifeform: except they aren't people but catz

00:22:07 mod6: jurov: yeah, totally could be something that already exists like that sure. the realy problem is finding souls to actually DO the work there.

00:22:13 asciilifeform: cause who else lives on 2btc!

00:22:16 mircea_popescu: and for the record alf you stole my v idea too!

00:22:34 asciilifeform: which

00:22:39 mircea_popescu: i dunno, they were all good.

00:22:47 mod6: well, no one said you were gonna live off of 2 BTC a year, unless you live on the dock and eat fish-heads for dinner every night.

00:23:05 mod6: but it's a hell of a lot more than you get when you just volunteer for some shit.

00:23:07 mircea_popescu: one does not live ON btc. one lives FOR btc.

00:23:17 asciilifeform: ^^^

00:23:22 mod6: *nod*

00:23:23 mircea_popescu: ask not what yer country can do for you!

00:23:40 mircea_popescu: for currently, it can at most get you in trouble, and that if you're lucky.

00:24:53 mod6: I'd even be open to the idea of two people splitting up the work there. Say, split 2BTC/yr between 2 individuals so that we get good coverage at all times.

00:25:39 mod6: Work amongst yourselves to decide who's on duty when so you don't have to worry if out of town or at whorehouse or whatever.

00:25:40 *: asciilifeform reads logz to see wtf this even was

00:26:04 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo WORLDSTARHIPHOP < ?

00:26:20 mircea_popescu: dude it's gotten so bad ~i~ have to ask for tmsr-pravda articles be translated.

00:26:31 *: asciilifeform misreads as 'wordstar hiphop'

00:26:34 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1434837 < the very same btc said to be worthless/useless/br0kended a couple of days ago

00:26:34 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 00:23:07; mircea_popescu: one does not live ON btc. one lives FOR btc.

00:26:48 funkenstein_: aha a separate hashing of solely the proof of storage digest, this looks like it could work

00:27:00 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: neh, the other btc

00:27:01 mod6: kakobrekla: if you don't like the weather, just wait a few days.

00:27:05 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla slightly not the same.

00:27:05 mod6: :P

00:27:19 mircea_popescu: but do link with the quotes.

00:27:21 funkenstein_: could be added in a la myriad, with separate difficulty

00:27:30 mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ what is this myriad ?

00:28:00 *: mircea_popescu is starting to suspect this lecherous dwarf may be the only one who cavorted with the scamcoins enough.

00:28:06 funkenstein_: its a coin with multiple difficulties for each hash function they use

00:28:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30592 @ 0.00041989 = 12.8453 BTC [-] {2}

00:28:15 funkenstein_: hehe, likely guilty as charged

00:29:01 kakobrekla: im sorry what other btc, the non existing one ?

00:29:38 kakobrekla: afaik the real bitcoin foundation collects btc not imaginary btc (at least bbet was sending those)

00:29:57 mircea_popescu: !s worthless

00:29:57 assbot: 499 results for 'worthless' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=worthless

00:30:18 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: the one which nobody ended up dumping massive qty of, the price of - not tanked, etc

00:31:12 *: funkenstein_ retracts myriad scheme suggestion, it is broken

00:31:15 nubbins`: lel

00:32:03 mircea_popescu: shock.

00:32:30 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1434864 <<< obligatory >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqT2uOa1-d0

00:32:30 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 00:29:57; mircea_popescu: !s worthless

00:32:32 assbot: The Brave Little Toaster - Worthless (No Interruptions) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlDtv1 )

00:33:02 mircea_popescu: no but srsly. am i gonna also !s "dump massive" or you get the point.

00:35:08 funkenstein_: so in this suggested coin you have proof a pool operator (aka miner) has a full copy of the block chain

00:35:19 mircea_popescu: aha.

00:36:19 asciilifeform: l0l lavabit case unsealed

00:38:06 asciilifeform: (unrelated)

00:39:10 ben_vulpes: mod6: could be convinced

00:40:01 mod6: ok, cool

00:44:22 asciilifeform: https://cryptome.org/2016/03/usg-lavabit-unsealed.pdf << mega-turd

00:45:10 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, at #eulora : http://dpaste.com/29BJV3V

00:45:12 assbot: dpaste: 29BJV3V ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlElzH )

00:46:25 asciilifeform: the court transcript is pure circus

00:46:39 asciilifeform: worthy of freisler

00:46:44 davout: mircea_popescu: btw, pls to read last x.eur statement, contains statement of collateral to be certified by mpex

00:46:48 mircea_popescu: which was the lavabit ?

00:47:03 mircea_popescu: davout i did read it. you had 40 btc deposited iirc, neh ?

00:47:10 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: cryptome link, scan

00:47:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no i know, but which was it ?

00:47:22 davout: mircea_popescu: yes

00:47:34 mircea_popescu: alrighty then.

00:48:05 asciilifeform: pg 80 iirc

00:48:17 davout: danke schön

00:48:25 mircea_popescu: oh oh the email thing, i recall now

00:48:32 asciilifeform: aha.

00:48:52 asciilifeform: the usg-gets-paper-masterkey one

00:48:58 mircea_popescu: yaya

00:51:04 mircea_popescu: i don't get all these people participating in "sealed" pseudo-legal proceedings.

00:51:24 mircea_popescu: there is no justice outside of the public forum. if party can not speak in public, it may not pretend like it has a case.

00:52:06 asciilifeform: bbbbbbut s333333kr1tz!11111

00:52:11 mircea_popescu: tough titty.

00:52:18 mircea_popescu: don't engage in activities you're ashamed of.

00:52:28 mircea_popescu: if you do - don't come to me to bail you out when they blow up.

00:52:49 asciilifeform: that'd be ~all of this here zimbabwestan aha.

00:54:12 asciilifeform: and at any rate none of these folks work in 'justice' business, they work in 'societal security' aka hitler's service.

00:54:24 mircea_popescu: aha.

00:54:34 mircea_popescu: sucks to be them, i guess.

00:54:58 funkenstein_: asciilifeform how long did you live in zimbabwe?

00:55:26 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: the great zimbabwe of usistan

00:55:29 mircea_popescu: he lives in washington dc and doesn't care for term propriety.

00:55:39 asciilifeform: '92 - present

00:56:12 asciilifeform: train stations still closed !

00:56:19 funkenstein_: so you are comparing usistan to a place you know nothing about?

00:56:20 mircea_popescu: eh whadda ya need 'em for.

00:56:32 mircea_popescu: you ever been funkenstein_ ?

00:56:35 funkenstein_: nope

00:56:39 mircea_popescu: aok.

00:57:06 asciilifeform: but he is very ready to 'you know nothing' aha.

00:57:32 mircea_popescu: i think he dislikes your cultural imperialism.

00:57:41 funkenstein_: you seem to like talking about it, i assumed you'd been there

00:57:54 mircea_popescu: "in my mind - i've been many times"

00:58:00 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: rhodesiana aficionado

00:58:26 funkenstein_: :) cool

00:58:34 mircea_popescu: what, zimbabwe is in rhodesia ?!

00:58:43 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: and of subj of countries-not-on-the-map-no-moar overall

00:59:19 funkenstein_: get a new map if you need one

00:59:34 mircea_popescu: http://www.newzimbabwe.com/news-28242-Zim+embassy+buildings+in+ruins+Parly+hears/news.aspx kinda lulzy.

00:59:36 assbot: Zim embassy buildings in ruins: Parly hears ... ( http://bit.ly/21vZ5nW )

00:59:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ==

01:01:00 funkenstein_: lol, with thumbs up even

01:02:13 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo WORLDSTARHIPHOP < ? << It's basically black youtube for fights and shit

01:02:31 mircea_popescu: aok

01:04:02 mircea_popescu: and in other dribbles, http://40.media.tumblr.com/8994722978b9ab1525d2899ed7c7d611/tumblr_mir1m6gTvy1s40vqwo1_1280.jpg

01:04:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlFFCL )

01:05:13 BingoBoingo: Anyways worldstar isn't a tmsr thing, it's more an internet thing. basically If you sucker punch someone it is normally assault. If you shout "World Star" while you do it, it becomes instead a prank.

01:05:36 mircea_popescu: ah i remember now.

01:09:43 BingoBoingo: Just one of those black privilege things

01:38:08 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://dpaste.com/3RR5F37.txt << have another lul

01:38:10 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1QZjTkM )

01:38:10 gribble: The operation succeeded.

02:02:21 asciilifeform: http://www.elweb.cz/fotky/400.jpg << interesting serendipitous find. a cpu-less rs232 viewer (some brain required!111) i thought about this very thing some years ago, and laughed it off mentally, but someone - built.

02:02:23 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/255iz7q )

02:02:41 asciilifeform: kakobrekla ^ one step beyond mere 'data diode' !

02:06:30 phf: that look like shift register, "some brain" indeed

02:06:43 asciilifeform: to read output!

02:06:48 asciilifeform: not to build.

02:06:52 phf: that's what i mean

02:07:22 kakobrekla: aha interesting concept but missing a lot to make it practically useful

02:07:23 asciilifeform: i can't be arsed to figure out presently whether this eats start/stop-bits correctly.

02:07:34 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: you get the basic idea tho

02:07:39 phf: you read output by counting lit up leds

02:08:33 phf: at transmission rate

02:08:47 asciilifeform: well no, it shifts'em in

02:08:52 asciilifeform: so read at leisure.

02:09:03 asciilifeform: message better be short.

02:09:58 asciilifeform: i've thought for many years about such tools. decomputerize, if you will, as much of the critical 'nuke launch' loop as possible.

02:10:08 asciilifeform: (for whatever your nuke is. pgp, bitcoin, whatevers)

02:11:32 asciilifeform: in the old dayz, you could actually buy eprom burners that were not, in the ordinary sense, computerized

02:11:39 asciilifeform: as in, toggle buttons.

02:11:45 asciilifeform: to input each word.

02:11:53 asciilifeform: and lamps - to read.

02:14:24 phf: su avionics were predominantly analogue, including space stuff, like trajectory calucations, until quite late in the game

02:16:13 phf: but i rarely see "sophisticated" systems outside of cute hacks like that rs232 visualizer. presumably have to be doing this stuff full time for years, with the explicit goal of solving computing problems using analogue means

02:41:59 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform awww.

02:42:14 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0ltr0nic

02:42:51 asciilifeform: phf et al: to continue the eprom thread, i was never satisfied with the lights box answer to 'how to keep rom burner from lying'. what i really want is a photographic rom, where the storage die is something like 'microdot' and the reader is generic (in chip package) & separable.

02:42:58 asciilifeform: microdot is trivial to reproduce reliably

02:43:06 asciilifeform: 100 y.o. tech.

02:43:40 asciilifeform: bonus if the photo slide is ~composable~

02:43:43 phf: microdot?

02:43:46 asciilifeform: i.e. i can insert >1 on top of one another.

02:43:48 asciilifeform: microdot.

02:43:51 phf: ah, ok, got it

02:44:05 asciilifeform: the ultimate vpatch !

02:44:58 asciilifeform: anyway this is page [redacted] from ye old 'coffin notebook'.

02:45:12 asciilifeform: presented here because thread.

02:45:37 phf: this is a borderline art project

02:45:47 mircea_popescu: ^

02:46:12 asciilifeform: it is in re the 'specificity of diddling' thing.

02:46:36 asciilifeform: enemy can embed extra mosfet in the reader, or whatever, but how does he know ~where~, etc.

02:46:47 phf: kind of stuff i'd see come out of martin howse's workshop (and his people)

02:46:48 asciilifeform: (and say i can hook up N of these, and the net result is xor of the lot!)

02:47:07 asciilifeform: ^ then they can contain literally ~anything~ and still produce my intended bitstring.

02:47:09 mircea_popescu: dude, the "enemy" has enough trouble finding its own arse.

02:47:31 phf: defending against hypothetical lizard alf

02:47:36 asciilifeform: enemy can be persuaded to make a good faith effort to at least occasionally find his arse

02:47:41 asciilifeform: esp. if we keep kicking him in it.

02:47:44 mircea_popescu: but not much more.

02:48:10 asciilifeform: anyway hopefully everyone understands against whom my designs are actually made.

02:48:32 mircea_popescu: and in other borderline art project news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/3470835acf69ddd9f2d81b5c341340d5/tumblr_ntnoh08fJz1s3qr6wo1_1280.jpg

02:48:34 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1pMLuwQ )

02:48:34 asciilifeform: they are built with the assumption that i will eventually be cokemachined personally and somehow made to fight for the nazis.

02:48:54 asciilifeform: it is a dismal thing, to play chess with self.

02:49:07 mircea_popescu: srsly.

02:49:12 asciilifeform: but how else.

02:49:17 mircea_popescu: gurlz!

02:49:20 asciilifeform: not like i got anybody worth playing.

02:49:25 asciilifeform: l0l

02:50:18 asciilifeform: phf: i am long-time fan of howse.

02:50:28 asciilifeform: though i know him as '1010'

02:51:05 phf: oh, ok, now things make even more sense

02:52:01 asciilifeform: 'The Dark Interpreter is influenced and guided by body capacitance, skin resistance, biological micro-voltages and the fleshy conduction of all signals. These are ways of saying that the Dark Interpreter is completely open. It is not to be considered as a closed and bounded device which is subject to an exterior control "by the body." The Dark Interpreter is an electronic and thus earthy shadow of the body, it is (inside) the

02:52:01 asciilifeform: body. The Dark Interpreter is thus not to be controlled. It is an obsidian electronic mirror, the earth and skin itself.' << i lack the wordz.

02:54:03 asciilifeform: 'Inspired in part by a cursory reading of Kafka's short story, In the Penal Colony, in which a complex executable mechanism, its workings and social procedure, are described, a mechanism which inscribes the sentence (of the law) directly on the skin of the 'Condemned Man', pain registers attempts to directly translate or transfer the operational codes which are running on a computer's CPU (Central Processing Unit) in 'real tim

02:54:03 asciilifeform: e' (whilst a common program such as the Firefox web browser is running) into the slow and painful inscription of a needle, piercing the skin of the operator or user's hand. A particular, common operational code such as that dictating the movement of the contents of one place in memory to another location, results in the needle achieving a certain depth in the hand, another opcode, say demanding the addition of two values, migh

02:54:04 asciilifeform: t barely touch the skin of the hand. The repetitive rhythms of changing operational codes, as an application for example initialises its opening state, are translated into the hypnotic, up and down movements of the needle (making use in the second prototype of a CD-ROM ejection mechanism), appearing somewhat like the slowed, jerked motions of a sewing machine.'

02:54:09 asciilifeform: ^ mega-art.

02:54:20 asciilifeform: i have not, it turns out, been keeping up with the fella.

02:54:43 asciilifeform: why isn't he here, again?!1111

02:54:58 asciilifeform: 'If codes can fuck your computer, where’s the porn that depicts them?' << him

02:55:23 hanbot: mod6:

02:55:23 hanbot: jurov: yeah, totally could be something that already exists like that sure. the realy problem is finding souls to actually DO the work there. << i'd be happy to help out however i can. how far back do you see this having to go btw?

02:58:47 asciilifeform: http://www.1010.co.uk/org/psplague.html << glorious

02:58:48 assbot: psplague ... ( http://bit.ly/1XwydmB )

02:59:01 asciilifeform: 'Inspired by Julian Oliver's psworld, psplague further explores the links between environment (simulation) and code. Rather than mapping a computer's internal processes onto visual features in the world (as in the case of psworld), in this instance (psplague) UNIX-like processes are attached to medieval villagers within a simple SIR (susceptible, infected, recovered) model of plague infection. When a villager becomes infected

02:59:01 asciilifeform: and dies after a period of time, the attached process running on the computer is terminated or killed. Warning: psplague can result in a more or less instantaneous hard crash.'

03:06:15 asciilifeform: unrelatedly,

03:06:21 asciilifeform: continuing levison thread >>> https://archive.is/5tCtf

03:06:22 assbot: Ladar Levison - As many of you already know, the government cited... ... ( http://bit.ly/1XwzoCG )

03:07:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00042133 = 8.4266 BTC [+] {2}

03:10:09 asciilifeform: back to the microdot,

03:10:18 asciilifeform: b&w photography is ULTRA EASY

03:10:22 asciilifeform: even in JUNGLE CONDITIONS

03:10:26 phf: i periodically revisit his page for inspiration, but i suspect that's he's probably some form of northern european anarcho leftist, which now's been fashionable long enough to perhaps swing back to fascism again. in other words he will probably find b-a rhetoric toxic. but i'm guessing from spending much time with other members of that crowd

03:10:43 asciilifeform: it is the caustics, heavy metals, cleanroom, etc. that suck donkey cock

03:10:56 phf: for all i know he wear leather boots and listens to martial industrial..

03:11:00 asciilifeform: but these possibly can be commoditized into a thing that contains no logic as such

03:11:09 asciilifeform: but simply takes a piece of film.

03:11:46 asciilifeform: phf: actually i see him as something more like a lacan who dropped out of physics, or the like

03:13:11 mod6: hanbot: hi, cool. probably would have to go back to at least the beginning of this whole hard/soft fork discussion i'd think.

03:14:08 punkman: "We didn’t see any of this happening,” Ramos said. “They’re saying Michael wanted to kill himself. We just don’t know.” She said that Michael Ford’s mother suffered a heart attack after police in Prince George’s burst into her house to search it following the shooting and that she is now at the same hospital as her son." << we just don't know, lol

03:14:29 asciilifeform: that makes ... 2? 3? usg-authored corpses in the case now ?

03:14:31 asciilifeform: 4 ?

03:14:43 punkman: oh wait I misread heart attack before station shooting

03:14:50 mod6: anyway, think it over for a bit. i'll get some coins into the foundation in a few days and then will try to write something up that can be signed.

03:15:03 phf: "if i cut the tape, he realized, my world will disappear. reality will continue for others, but not for me. because my reality, my universe, is coming to me from this minuscule unit. fed into the scanner and then into my central nervous system as it snailishly unwinds."

03:16:51 asciilifeform: aha!

03:20:35 punkman: speakinf of film, I've thought of doing backups on microfilm reels. Small reel holds 5k A4 pages or something.

03:22:18 asciilifeform: punkman: not sure if i ever viewed a microfilm reel without blots

03:22:58 asciilifeform: i suppose you could 'turbo code' it (m of n)

03:23:07 asciilifeform: sorta like folks used to do with cassettes.

03:23:17 punkman: yeah, some redundancy in the data, plus compression, then OCR

03:23:46 punkman: which should also work on paper

03:24:05 punkman: (I mean printed A4 pages)

03:25:18 punkman: "At 42X Reduction, a 215 ft. Roll of Archive Microfilm will hold approximately 12,300 images"

03:41:59 BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=4009

03:42:01 assbot: JL: More Hoodrats, Mom, Please! ... ( http://bit.ly/255qIbY )

03:45:31 danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1434750 << how does this relate to more or less "relay work" ?

03:45:31 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 00:03:15; mircea_popescu: and yet another twistable knob exists : the nonce may be shifted before taking the nonceth element.

04:08:06 BingoBoingo: !up liquidbasic

04:08:30 liquidbasic: I know nothing

04:15:42 funkenstein_: a wise man knows he is a fool

05:00:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9771 @ 0.00042134 = 4.1169 BTC [+]

05:35:21 BingoBoingo: http://eagnews.org/video-harvard-students-debate-whether-whites-should-kill-themselves-due-to-privilege/

05:35:22 assbot: VIDEO: Harvard students debate whether whites should kill themselves due to ‘privilege’ | EAGnews.org ... ( http://bit.ly/1RnTQks )

05:51:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00041975 = 2.4765 BTC [-] {2}

08:25:22 jurov: hanbot: it's hard to determine what is obsolete and what isn't in past logs, i'd do only new stuff from now on and go back only following explicit references

09:19:36 davout: mircea_popescu kakobrekla would either of you guys veto my application for the job of bitbet receiver?

09:43:10 jurov: lol such careful approach

09:44:02 *: jurov pictures davout approaching the snakepit with stick

09:53:18 davout: jurov: well yes, this looks like an interesting job though!

09:54:08 jurov: yes, and glad to hear you're interested

09:54:09 davout: now whether both the involved parties think i'm qualified or not is obviously the first thing to clear up

09:58:23 jurov: i can't think of any possible serious objections

09:59:43 jurov: would surprise me if you'd be rejected outright

09:59:53 davout: that's up to the involved parties, wait and see

10:01:56 jurov: just the monkey on my back driving my fingers again, i guess.

10:03:09 davout: obligatory https://vixstar1314.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/fg_evil_monkey.jpg

10:03:10 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Lsk758 )

10:16:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32574 @ 0.00042099 = 13.7133 BTC [+] {2}

11:17:51 nubbins`: davout fun

11:44:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32100 @ 0.00042091 = 13.5112 BTC [-]

11:52:42 punkman: !t m s.mpoe

11:52:42 assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00041975 / 0.00042038 / 0.00042134 (279487 shares, 117.49 BTC), 7D: 0.00041975 / 0.0004784 / 0.00053073 (12107697 shares, 5,792.34 BTC), 30D: 0.00041975 / 0.00055005 / 0.00059897 (70614688 shares, 38,841.89 BTC)

12:24:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24250 @ 0.00041975 = 10.1789 BTC [-] {3}

12:58:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24300 @ 0.00041982 = 10.2016 BTC [+] {3}

13:40:10 mircea_popescu: davout i wouldn't, in principle.

13:40:36 mircea_popescu: i saw you with glasses on once, total accountant look. good enough for me.

13:42:03 shinohai: http://i.imgur.com/IQIhI21.png

13:42:04 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1pw94xW )

13:45:04 mircea_popescu: !up panoddl

13:46:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to round up yest's discussion of intelligence : if your putative beast that eats its brain does so in an actual maximum point, then the behaviour of eating the brain is intelligent ; if however it does so in a local maximum point that is later within its lifetime invalidated by events, then the same exact behaviour was unintelligent.

13:46:44 mircea_popescu: this underscores the principal point about intelligence, which is to say that it is an ex post facto construction outside the object, and consequently it can not either be objective, or objectively measured.

13:47:09 mircea_popescu: considered in general, "naturally" which is to say over an universal domain, "intelligence" is meaningless.

13:47:53 mircea_popescu: will may give restrictions of domain upon which an intelligence function may be constructed so it's coherent, but this then doesn't provide a method to justify the will upon which the whole construction is based.

13:48:17 mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental problem of ethics, that you can't have an intelligent justification of will, merely a willful justification of intelligence.

13:48:28 mircea_popescu: and this is why neither ethics nor iqs are a thing.

13:48:57 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435078 <<< :D

13:48:57 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 13:40:36; mircea_popescu: i saw you with glasses on once, total accountant look. good enough for me.

13:49:13 mircea_popescu: now answer the q asked of solrodar if you will.

13:49:53 davout: refresh my memory?

13:50:28 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433077 and following.

13:50:28 assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 00:50:59; mircea_popescu: i'm sure somebody somewhere has, why not. anyway : what do you plan to do to maximize shareholder revenue from bitbet assets ?

13:55:18 shinohai: !s https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4aqi1s/these_42_bitcoin_projects_were_shutdown_by_an/

13:55:19 assbot: These 42 Bitcoin projects were shutdown by an ongoing DDoS attack : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1pwajxf )

13:55:20 assbot: 0 results for 'https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4aqi1s/these_42_bitcoin_projects_were_shutdown_by_an/' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FBitcoin%2Fcomments%2F4aqi1s%2Fthese_42_bitcoin_projects_were_shutdown_by_an%2F

13:57:30 davout: that would be three-fold: not charge more than a few percent for the whole liquidation, evaluate all claims against bitbet in light of its actual contract (and more specifically, the 3.2 (d) clause), try to get as much as possible from the non-cash assets, and (quite importantly) not disappear with the cash

13:57:47 davout: (and yes, that's more than three points)

13:58:47 mircea_popescu: doesn't tell me much.

13:59:12 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435009 << - >> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435008

13:59:12 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 02:54:43; asciilifeform: why isn't he here, again?!1111

13:59:12 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 02:54:20; asciilifeform: i have not, it turns out, been keeping up with the fella.

13:59:23 mircea_popescu: i take it's because you were too jwz to have invited him already ?

14:00:46 davout: mircea_popescu: ask something a bit more specific maybe?

14:01:15 mircea_popescu: dear god. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433080

14:01:15 assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 00:52:46; mircea_popescu: do you have any sort of particular assets that'd likely help ? prior experience in doing this sort of thing (selling online properties) ? connections or otherwise some power putting you above others in some way ?

14:01:26 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433083

14:01:26 assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 00:55:05; mircea_popescu: i don't think you take my meaning. have you for instance ever auctioned a domain name successfully ? are you well known in those circles ? anything ?

14:01:32 mircea_popescu: what did you think & following means ?

14:01:53 mircea_popescu: there's a list there. don't have to go through it as is, read it, think it through also works.

14:02:50 davout: well i did get that and read it, but i don't have any particular assets or connections other than my wot and history that put me in a particularly better position than others to do the job

14:03:09 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435024 << it is a sin, i will point out, to act today on the basis of an evaluation of tomorrow. please, causes. forget effects. THEY are toxic.

14:03:09 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 03:10:26; phf: i periodically revisit his page for inspiration, but i suspect that's he's probably some form of northern european anarcho leftist, which now's been fashionable long enough to perhaps swing back to fascism again. in other words he will probably find b-a rhetoric toxic. but i'm guessing from spending much time with other members of that crowd

14:03:22 mircea_popescu: davout i see!

14:03:32 davout: so yeah, no particular mention of those non-extant things

14:03:54 mircea_popescu: much better stated like this than stated like you know, in the fiat wooden tongue. at least for my needs.

14:04:18 davout: pardon my french

14:04:35 mircea_popescu: :p

14:05:47 mircea_popescu: (to explain my thought process to the curious bystander - i would have seriously considered the application of a fiat-based receiver with provable practice but innocent of the wot over solrodar's ; i won't consider such over davout's. this means that in the past coupla days a window for some people to actually make their corpses useful to the world opened and closed - notwithstanding their or anyone else's pretense to

14:05:47 mircea_popescu: the contrary.)

14:07:53 davout: bbl

14:10:22 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435023 << hence all the soviet youth's photo labs.

14:10:22 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 03:10:22; asciilifeform: even in JUNGLE CONDITIONS

14:11:40 mircea_popescu: phf for my curiosity, what's your classification of "b-a rhetorics" ? anarcho-neoliberal ? deco-existentialist ?

14:13:03 mircea_popescu: ;;google liber-schimbist

14:13:04 gribble: Party of Free Change - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_Free_Change; 10 Ridiculous Political Parties You Won't Believe Got Elected ...: http://listverse.com/2016/01/20/10-ridiculous-political-parties-you-wont-believe-got-elected/; liber - Wikționar: https://ro.wiktionary.org/wiki/liber

14:22:33 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435032 << pretty lulzy.

14:22:33 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 03:14:29; asciilifeform: that makes ... 2? 3? usg-authored corpses in the case now ?

14:23:13 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435036 << you mean he didn't move to argentina ?!

14:23:13 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 03:15:03; phf: "if i cut the tape, he realized, my world will disappear. reality will continue for others, but not for me. because my reality, my universe, is coming to me from this minuscule unit. fed into the scanner and then into my central nervous system as it snailishly unwinds."

14:23:19 mircea_popescu: i'm shocked. SHOCKED! i say!

14:24:58 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435045 << you';re better off with digital storage than analogic. even for the narrow cases where analogic usually wins (film archival) it's on the grounds of "preserving the original item, which was analogic rather than transform it in some manner the lossy-ness of which we can't evaluate", nothing more.

14:24:58 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 03:25:18; punkman: "At 42X Reduction, a 215 ft. Roll of Archive Microfilm will hold approximately 12,300 images"

14:26:02 jurov: punkman: you can use http://ronja.twibright.com/optar/

14:26:03 assbot: Twibright Optar ... ( http://bit.ly/256k5X5 )

14:26:26 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435048 << if the nonce is not shifted at all, each digest is good for exactly one nonce. if the nonce is shifted one bit, each digest is good for 2 nonces. if it is shifted 10 bits, 1024 nonces. etc.

14:26:26 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 03:45:31; danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1434750 << how does this relate to more or less "relay work" ?

14:28:15 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron an important point to consider is the data & i/o meaning of "1 petahash". if each single hash requires 256 bits of data to proceed, you are looking at 32 petabytes of data that has to move. in a second ? ouch.

14:32:20 mircea_popescu: i mean i know gavin-moore law will "fix this in the future", of course, but this isn't how engineering works.

14:32:29 mircea_popescu: in fact, that's eactly how engineering ISN'T done.

14:32:54 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435051 << ahahaha.

14:32:54 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 04:08:30; liquidbasic: I know nothing

14:32:58 mircea_popescu: ;;google know-nothings

14:32:58 gribble: Know Nothing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing; Know-Nothing party | political party, United States | Britannica.com: http://www.britannica.com/topic/Know-Nothing-party; Freedom: A History of US. Webisode 8: Who's Land is This?. - PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/historyofus/web08/segment5.html

14:41:04 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435055 << they should at least wear those cute see through frilly socks! if they can't go all the way to http://41.media.tumblr.com/a512c6749b02295db8b4c267a379a075/tumblr_nlayqenekm1u2r4a0o1_1280.jpg

14:41:04 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 05:35:22; assbot: VIDEO: Harvard students debate whether whites should kill themselves due to ‘privilege’ | EAGnews.org ... ( http://bit.ly/1RnTQks )

14:41:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RoEA6O )

14:51:01 mircea_popescu: "The suburbs are doomed. Go rural or stay urban, where you at least have structurally defensible enclaves, as opposed to getting caught in the suburban net that was designed to put you at the mercy of teenage criminals when you are in your eighties." << to the uncharitable eye it'd seem south africa was actually an experiment rather than happenstance.

14:53:28 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435057 << he has a good point.

14:53:28 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 08:25:22; jurov: hanbot: it's hard to determine what is obsolete and what isn't in past logs, i'd do only new stuff from now on and go back only following explicit references

14:53:44 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435083 << this puts you in the lulzy position of saying the same for, e.g., voltage.

14:53:44 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 13:46:44; mircea_popescu: this underscores the principal point about intelligence, which is to say that it is an ex post facto construction outside the object, and consequently it can not either be objective, or objectively measured.

14:53:51 asciilifeform: or even mass.

14:53:54 mircea_popescu: how does it do that ?

14:54:00 mircea_popescu: yes, mass. see qm.

14:54:04 asciilifeform: well, 'ex post facto measurement.'

14:54:05 asciilifeform: aha

14:54:17 asciilifeform: nevertheless these are essential engineering abstractions.

14:54:52 mircea_popescu: IF you can stay carefully out in a domain where the newtonian approximation is close enough, THEN you'll be ok with that idea of intelligence.

14:54:52 mircea_popescu: however, it appears pretty narrow.

14:55:00 asciilifeform: sure.

14:55:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just because one whore was easy doesn't mean all whores are going to be as easy.

14:55:44 mircea_popescu: and this one particular whore seems hell bent on making life miserable.

14:55:52 asciilifeform: hm?

14:56:08 mircea_popescu: yes, mass you can presume you'll fuck for a cracker.

14:56:12 mircea_popescu: intelligence ? dear god.

14:57:07 asciilifeform: we have a pretty good handle on stupidity though.

14:57:15 asciilifeform: largely i work with ~it~

14:57:17 asciilifeform: not intelligence.

14:58:19 mircea_popescu: maybe.

14:59:00 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435103 << he walked out of my cache. now back in. i am considering writing to him, but probably i am no good at this, none of the folks thus far to whom i wrote, showed up.

14:59:00 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 13:59:23; mircea_popescu: i take it's because you were too jwz to have invited him already ?

14:59:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435122 << i have right here !

14:59:56 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 14:10:22; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435023 << hence all the soviet youth's photo labs.

15:00:02 asciilifeform: doesn't everyone!??!1111

15:01:16 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435132 << original thread was about AUDITABLE devices

15:01:16 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 14:24:58; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435045 << you';re better off with digital storage than analogic. even for the narrow cases where analogic usually wins (film archival) it's on the grounds of "preserving the original item, which was analogic rather than transform it in some manner the lossy-ness of which we can't evaluate", nothing more.

15:01:23 asciilifeform: as in, photo has ~no state.

15:01:37 asciilifeform: no hidden 'will flip if xyz' functionality possible.

15:04:21 mircea_popescu: oh hey check it out, wikipedia manages a 5k word article on "allied invasion of sicily" without the words "cosa nostra", "mafia" or "vizzini". way to go, history by the retards, for the retards, a complete pie!

15:04:30 mircea_popescu: anyways asciilifeform : ever heard of one calogero vizzini ?

15:05:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check it out, your idea of "auditable" maps exactly on my idea of "clearsign" yet you had trouble digesting that ?!?!?!?!

15:07:07 asciilifeform: i dun see ?

15:07:43 asciilifeform: clearsign involves magic words that break the flow of events

15:07:47 asciilifeform: which imho is retarded.

15:08:02 mircea_popescu: i can print it and have my slaves verify it by hand.

15:08:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu wrote about how s&m with 'safeword' is retarded

15:08:06 asciilifeform: he oughta understand?

15:08:36 mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that magic words are retarded.

15:08:47 asciilifeform: you can have as easily the slaves print out nonclearsigned (magic header, vs magic inband) and verify.

15:08:53 asciilifeform: in hex if you like.

15:09:12 asciilifeform: and in fact this is POINTEDLY easier.

15:09:20 asciilifeform: because they do not need to transform the payload.

15:11:22 asciilifeform: only hash it.

15:12:27 mircea_popescu: and YOU can just as well have a trusted computer to print out the digital store.

15:12:46 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435148 << city is 'defensible' if the city is stalingrad, and 'defend' can include 'destroy', and red army is flying in supplies.

15:12:46 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 14:51:01; mircea_popescu: "The suburbs are doomed. Go rural or stay urban, where you at least have structurally defensible enclaves, as opposed to getting caught in the suburban net that was designed to put you at the mercy of teenage criminals when you are in your eighties." << to the uncharitable eye it'd seem south africa was actually an experiment rather than happenstance.

15:13:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he means something very specific by "structurally defensive enclaves".

15:13:24 asciilifeform: are these folks really imagining they will defend in a siege from a row house ?

15:13:32 mircea_popescu: it's a concept more correctly derived from crystallography, of which he's unaware :

15:13:49 mircea_popescu: amorphous pockets the energy of resolution for which exceeds the destruction energy for the crystal.

15:13:58 asciilifeform: warsaw ghetto ?

15:14:21 mircea_popescu: yes, it's delusional. but it's what he means.

15:14:28 mircea_popescu: and in the domain he knows how to contemplate, he is correct.

15:14:39 mircea_popescu: "correct like the jews". should be a trope.

15:14:45 asciilifeform: it works - for a spell - against waffen ss, but not king hunger.

15:14:51 mircea_popescu: "what could POSSIBLY happen if we badmouth and boycott german goods ?"

15:15:08 mircea_popescu: "i dunno, maybe most of you die in a large pit fire ?"

15:15:11 mircea_popescu: "WHAT!111!"

15:16:16 mircea_popescu: but the most interesting of all these threads - ever heard of one calogero vizzini ?

15:18:00 asciilifeform: btw the crystal concept has applications even in orcdom

15:18:06 asciilifeform: small arms 'demilitarized' for museums sometimes have lead poured into the barrel

15:18:11 asciilifeform: idea being that if you heat it to melt the lead out, you destroy the temper.

15:18:15 mircea_popescu: so it does. it's one of those bits of reality that keeps repeating.

15:18:21 asciilifeform: aha

15:19:01 asciilifeform: 'we had to destroy the village in order to save it' (tm) (r)

15:19:13 mircea_popescu: amputations still occur.

15:19:21 asciilifeform: aha.

15:20:03 asciilifeform: an i am, approx., a pro amputator.

15:20:16 asciilifeform: little else.

15:22:53 asciilifeform: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-new-video-executions-fallujah-iraq-six-spies-leaking-militants-files-details-a6936436.html << moar lulz

15:22:54 assbot: Isis executes six ‘spies’ in Iraq accused of leaking militants’ details | Middle East | News | The Independent ... ( http://bit.ly/1MplgFs )

15:24:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how come nobody seems to get impaled in the arab lands ? assyrians, iirc, are thought to have ~invented~ the fucking stake!111 why no impale ?!11

15:25:26 mircea_popescu: how would i know!

15:25:36 asciilifeform: who if not mircea_popescu would know!11

15:25:44 mircea_popescu: these two can coexist.

15:26:08 asciilifeform: apparently.

15:26:20 mircea_popescu: anyway, impalement is what i'd do. established absolute ruler of great power and etc. isis isn't that, just a swarming mob. of course they prefer beheadings, manlier.

15:26:41 mircea_popescu: once they get an actual suleyman, impalements have a better chance.

15:26:57 asciilifeform: hm yeah, crowd gotta hold still long enough to enjoy an impalement

15:27:02 asciilifeform: no such thing in the orc lands.

15:31:45 danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435136 << still having a hard time with this. Wouldn't shifting the nonce just leave you with another nonce? I don't understand how it would line up with multiple nonces..

15:31:45 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 14:26:26; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435048 << if the nonce is not shifted at all, each digest is good for exactly one nonce. if the nonce is shifted one bit, each digest is good for 2 nonces. if it is shifted 10 bits, 1024 nonces. etc.

15:32:26 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435119 << holy fuck, srsly?! mircea_popescu would let somebody liquidate the 750 coin, and try to pay the bettors in fiat, with kyc crapolade, etc. ?!!!11

15:32:26 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 14:05:47; mircea_popescu: (to explain my thought process to the curious bystander - i would have seriously considered the application of a fiat-based receiver with provable practice but innocent of the wot over solrodar's ; i won't consider such over davout's. this means that in the past coupla days a window for some people to actually make their corpses useful to the world opened and closed - notwithstanding their or anyone

15:33:07 asciilifeform: or is there some ~other~ wotless 'proven practice' i don't know about.

15:45:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah, no. they'd have to get in wot and follow teh rules, of course.

15:45:58 mircea_popescu: and if i hire an immigrant irishman as a carpenter, that STILL means he's gonna carpent in fucking new york, not that i'm paying his passage back to dublin to make me some doors and window frames there. wtf.

15:47:52 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron let's work an example. say the nonce is 7. this means hash1=f(header+7) and hash2 = g(digest(7)+7)

15:48:37 mircea_popescu: if in fact a shift by 2 was in effect, it'd be the case that hash1=f(header+7) and hash2 = g(digest(1)+1)

15:49:04 mircea_popescu: hash2 would have been the same for all nonces over 3, ie, 4, 5, 6 and 7. it'd have also been the same for all nonces under 4, ie, 0, 1, 2 and 3.

15:49:18 mircea_popescu: this means you get to do 4 old style hashings for each new style digest you calculate.

15:50:23 mircea_popescu: this because 2 bits = 2^2 = 4. had the shift been 17 bits, then you'd get to do 2^17 = 131072 old style hashings for each new style digest you calculate.

15:50:26 danielpbarron: how do you get to 1 from a shift of 2 away from 7?

15:50:34 mircea_popescu: 7 is 111 in binary.

15:50:45 mircea_popescu: 0111 shifted 2 is 0001

15:50:55 danielpbarron: aha

16:15:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00042133 = 6.657 BTC [+] {2}

16:18:46 deedbot-: [Daniel P. Barron] The New Bitcoin - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/the-new-bitcoin/

16:20:40 mircea_popescu: mod6 ^ ?

16:27:42 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron you know i think comments are somehow broken ? i push teh button, nothing happens.

16:28:11 davout: ;;isup http://danielpbarron.com/

16:28:17 gribble: http://danielpbarron.com/ is down

16:28:20 davout: danielpbarron: ^

16:29:55 danielpbarron: dang

16:30:12 danielpbarron: pogo really shouldn't be used for this purpose :<

16:41:29 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: what os on the pogo?

16:41:38 asciilifeform: what httptron?

16:42:39 mircea_popescu: well, since alf doesn't want to engage the failure modes of "we know what stupidity is", let's just leave reference to perhaps the best folkloric work of all time, https://archive.org/stream/operecompletedig301pitr/operecompletedig301pitr_djvu.txt

16:42:42 assbot: Full text of "Opere complete di Giuseppe Pitrè.." ... ( http://bit.ly/1pO7WFU )

16:42:51 mircea_popescu: and call it good.

16:44:31 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, arch linux, apache2

16:44:42 mircea_popescu: nah, nginx.

16:44:51 danielpbarron: https://archive.is/LU8EH << in case it goes down again

16:44:53 assbot: The New Bitcoin – Daniel P. Barron ... ( http://bit.ly/1pO8zPJ )

16:44:59 mircea_popescu: apache really dun work for this purpose.

16:45:09 danielpbarron: your comment is approved although i did that after the archive

16:45:20 mircea_popescu: ah it made it through ? cool.

16:45:54 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: ick systemd

16:46:03 danielpbarron: i know it sucks

16:46:08 asciilifeform: and i had it, it was a turd

16:46:17 asciilifeform: forget about it

16:46:31 asciilifeform: build my portatron

16:46:35 danielpbarron: if i'm gonna move off a pogo i'll use gentoo on whatever the replacement is

16:46:36 asciilifeform: it - worx

16:46:45 asciilifeform: pogo is spiffy

16:47:00 danielpbarron: just so happens i had arch on pogo already set up, so it was the easiest to get blog going on

16:47:01 asciilifeform: no need to move.

16:47:31 danielpbarron: is it possible to do gentoo on pogo?

16:47:43 asciilifeform: 'don't eat from dumpsters' (tm) (r) (mp)

16:47:49 asciilifeform: sure.

16:48:29 danielpbarron: i think if i enable caching the pogo might survive all those hits at once better

16:49:02 asciilifeform: when i tried the arch, systemd would hose the box ~weekly

16:49:21 asciilifeform: or if you actually put load on it

16:50:15 mircea_popescu: seems to be how it goes lol.

17:02:36 davout: danielpbarron: i reddit'd your piece for increased pogotron ddos lulz

17:04:16 davout: danielpbarron: i may have an old ipnohe lying around if you ever feel like upgrading your blawg's hosting

17:05:08 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron you know, it occurs to me your idea to run a webserver on pogo may actually be very valuable.

17:05:23 mircea_popescu: see if you manage to apply alf's thing and if it runs well. if it does, a next step you can take is :

17:06:03 mircea_popescu: see if your isp is willing to give you a c block / upgrade your connection. buy a coupla bridges of 32 or 64, make a high voltage rectifier thingee, and power a bunch of boxes

17:06:37 mircea_popescu: people would prolly be willing to pay a few dollars /mo to rent an ACTUAL physical box, which means you can take a few hundred in exchange for a not-unreasonable upfront expenditure.

17:07:59 mircea_popescu: and since you have the wot at your disposal most of the costs involved in low end hosting (ie, keeping the scum out) you're insulated from.

17:08:52 mircea_popescu: if it can run an obscure wp blog, it certainly can run a bnc or whatever other such thing. much better security model than "i pay 20 dollars to dc hosted blabla-freedom.net"

17:12:47 danielpbarron: yeah i got another pogo doing my irc client; it was also doing my old non-wp website

17:13:10 mircea_popescu: (by a high voltage rectifier thingee i mean that iirc pogos draw 4.5 V dc. a > kv rectifier diode is twenty bucks or something, you can make yourself an item you plug into the wall and it feeds 100 pogos arranged in series out of maybe a hundy.)

17:13:16 danielpbarron: actually the irc one is the lesser non-sata pogo

17:14:18 danielpbarron: using an sd card for the userland, and in two cases both had the filesystem corrupted, which is why I had to try it on my sata-style pogo

17:16:01 mircea_popescu: 320V DC out of wall socket is a electronics 101 project ever since the times of hte b&w photo clubs.

17:18:05 nubbins`: i have three SATA pogos and two non-SATA

17:18:12 nubbins`: one's a NAS

17:18:20 nubbins`: one may end up as a CUPS server

17:22:08 asciilifeform: series?!11111

17:22:23 mircea_popescu: yes ?

17:22:38 mircea_popescu: how do you call it, add voltage, same current ?

17:22:44 asciilifeform: so whole lot can die cascade death when one shorts ?!!

17:22:54 mircea_popescu: eh, so you fuse it, big whoop.

17:23:01 asciilifeform: fuse dun work this way.

17:23:05 mircea_popescu: if one in 100 shorts you get a 1% increase, which they don't care anyway.

17:23:06 asciilifeform: fuse is for overcurrent.

17:23:11 mircea_popescu: yes ?

17:23:15 asciilifeform: not overvoltage.

17:23:23 mircea_popescu: there's overvoltage fuse also!

17:23:31 asciilifeform: and if one opencircuits ?

17:23:38 asciilifeform: sorry, this is nutso.

17:23:53 mircea_popescu: if one opencircuits what ?

17:23:57 asciilifeform: even in analogue world, this is no longer a thing.

17:24:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: then whole thing stops

17:24:06 mircea_popescu: so ?

17:24:11 asciilifeform: so this is retarded.

17:24:15 mircea_popescu: you throw it ouyt and big deal.

17:25:18 asciilifeform: and it isn't as if these don't come with a civilized 12v regulated brick.

17:25:21 phf: mircea_popescu: i take rhetoric as separate from message. b-a rhetoric is firmly in asshole tradition, i.e. strong statements and the listener has an option to find the subtle point.

17:25:23 asciilifeform: so wtf

17:25:40 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would you stop getting in the way of people doing things omigerd.

17:26:06 mircea_popescu: i'm going to power 100x 12 v transformers because wut, "i can't make things - gotta use chinese made!!1"

17:26:07 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why the FUCK to do this?!111 good way to nuke a dozen or two nonrenewable resource pogotrons

17:26:16 asciilifeform: thing eats REGULATED 12v

17:26:18 asciilifeform: srsly

17:26:21 mircea_popescu: so he sees if he likes fucking with hardware.

17:26:34 asciilifeform: why not ~usefully~ fuck

17:26:44 asciilifeform: e.g., reattache the missing sata plugs to the cheapo pogo version

17:26:48 asciilifeform: *reattach

17:26:52 mircea_popescu: because you gotta start with easy.

17:27:07 mircea_popescu: this is an eery repeat of the chicken story, somehow.

17:27:14 mircea_popescu: who the FUCK cares about fucking chickens already!

17:27:22 asciilifeform: what's easier than soldering a plug into a pre-prepped landing pad ?

17:27:32 mircea_popescu: this brave new libertard world that "holds people as the greatest value", i am so sick of it!

17:28:07 asciilifeform: wawat

17:28:08 mircea_popescu: phf methinks you may be alone in that interpretation. i for instance don't do the whole "accept as fairitale" thing.

17:28:19 danielpbarron: recall i already did the soldering thing to make adulterated pogo

17:28:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let the man burn pogos. i will not change man to protect pogos. wtf.

17:29:28 asciilifeform: if yer gonna burn pogos, why not usefully, see how much overclock the thing can take, or see if you can upgrade the ram

17:29:32 asciilifeform: (quite nontrivial)

17:29:55 mircea_popescu: your idea of usefully is centered on the thing.

17:30:05 mircea_popescu: it is a sickening display.

17:31:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when you invite folks for target practice, which piece do you let them fire ? the luger, penny a round, or the rare borschardt 1890 where each round has to be bought from museum ?

17:31:10 phf: mircea_popescu: which interpretation? i'm saying that the way arguments are presented here is essentially "this is how it is, and you're an idiot for not grokking" as opposed to some other, perhaps subtler, forms of rhetoric

17:31:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i will remind you i am the one who plans to buy the ancient collection of chinese miniature emperors on rice beads

17:31:38 mircea_popescu: and make it pilaf.

17:31:50 mircea_popescu: phf ah, like that.

17:31:51 phf: european leftists have been inexplicably at war with trolling (which is a 180 change from how it was in the 90s and prior), somehow went from CRASS to respecting each others feelings, so takes some conscious effort to court some from that circle

17:31:55 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: exciting

17:32:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but i think isis stole your idea

17:32:39 mircea_popescu: a well.

17:33:20 mircea_popescu: anyway. powering a bunch of pogos in the discussed way is neither terribly difficult nor terribly risky. it does require some reading, of course. and it does deviate from "how things are done", which is a major asset.

17:34:19 asciilifeform: street lights used to be powered this way.

17:34:21 asciilifeform: in 1890s

17:34:24 mircea_popescu: aha.

17:34:28 asciilifeform: it sucked.

17:34:38 mircea_popescu: shut up, if we end up back in 1890 you'll be thankful for dpb.

17:34:54 asciilifeform: who do i call if i end up in 1790 ?

17:34:59 mircea_popescu: give me some time.

17:37:21 mircea_popescu: phf that change, incidentally, makes me completely discount the euro "left" movement.

17:37:31 phf: yes

17:37:34 mircea_popescu: they stand for exactly nothing ; one generation switch can change any major tenet.

17:37:41 mircea_popescu: might as well care what the "fashion world" thinks.

17:37:54 mircea_popescu: which, incidentally, is EXACTLY what they are. the fashion world of ugly chicks and insecure betas.

17:38:43 asciilifeform: i thought this was obvious ?

17:39:08 asciilifeform: and, these folks have been adrift since the kgb financing dried up.

17:39:11 mircea_popescu: well obvious or not now it's also stated.

17:39:59 phf: i thought there was some cool shit, RAF for example had a very practical nazi beurocrat cleaning program

17:40:24 mircea_popescu: are you talking 50s ?!

17:40:59 phf: problem with being autodidact, 50s look as close as yesterday

17:41:42 asciilifeform: ^^^

17:42:03 *: mircea_popescu jew-york handwaves

17:42:48 asciilifeform: i have whole shelf of 1950s b00kz in 'computing' section of my library. they are spiffy & useful.

17:43:09 asciilifeform: and contain actual technical material, not only maths, not found elsewhere

17:43:33 asciilifeform: (e.g., description of how magnetic recording actually happens, the material aspects of the media, etc0

17:43:36 asciilifeform: )

17:44:28 asciilifeform: items like, e.g., delay line storage, crt memory, etc. also.

17:44:44 asciilifeform: things we may well come back to, If This Goes On

17:45:41 asciilifeform: incidentally, physical quality of books in the english world peaked some time in 50s.

17:46:57 asciilifeform: in other lulz,

17:46:58 asciilifeform: http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/03/botched-java-patch-leaves-millions-vulnerable-to-30-month-old-attack

17:46:59 assbot: Botched Java patch leaves millions vulnerable to 30-month-old attack | Ars Technica ... ( http://bit.ly/1UDjCGO )

17:49:08 asciilifeform: moar lulz from same rag, http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/03/nsa-refused-clinton-a-secure-blackberry-like-obama-so-she-used-her-own

17:49:10 assbot: NSA refused Clinton a secure BlackBerry like Obama, so she used her own | Ars Technica ... ( http://bit.ly/1UDk1ZQ )

17:51:06 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> what's easier than soldering a plug into a pre-prepped landing pad ? << ANYTHING that doesn't involve "pre-prepped". what's easier than marrying this girl your mommy splayed out on the bed for you ???

17:51:07 mircea_popescu: jesus.

17:53:21 mircea_popescu: phf thinking about it, i think the switch has a lot to do with their delusional notion that they're somehow now in power.

17:53:49 asciilifeform: so when $random-ba-visitor proposes doing something idiotic with financitronics, mircea_popescu says 'this is moronic' and this is a-ok, because financitronics is a mircea_popescu-competence. when i say 'this is moronic' and subj is electronics, then i am on crack?

17:53:55 asciilifeform: this makes sense to anyone ?

17:54:30 asciilifeform: sorry, series power supply for digital apparatus is dumb.

17:54:35 mircea_popescu: a) i've on many occasions said, "this is stupid but will be instructive, proceed" ; b) you think this is about production, which it isn't, it's educational.

17:54:48 asciilifeform: well i suppose from some angle ~anything~ is educational.

17:54:59 asciilifeform: let folks learn by pissing on electric fence, wahtever.

17:55:06 mircea_popescu: and from that same angle, the value of tmsr engineer is g(value of burned pogos)

17:55:17 asciilifeform: sure.

17:55:32 asciilifeform: burn, burn.

17:55:44 mircea_popescu: and the same EXACT arguments you use could be used to persuade me (or at least a dumber version) to use java instead of tinyscheme.

17:55:50 mircea_popescu: but the EXACT same.

17:56:04 mircea_popescu: "hey, it's not done like that since the 50s! the 50s sucked!"

17:56:06 mircea_popescu: etc.

17:57:12 phf: exactly same arguments i'd use to convince someone to use tinyscheme i can use to convince ~myself~ to use java..

17:59:06 mircea_popescu: lol show this ?

17:59:58 asciilifeform: and with same hammer, pound in nail, or skull, aha

18:00:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you're either bored or butthurt

18:00:16 mircea_popescu: enough about this matter :

18:00:32 mircea_popescu: get a customizable power bridge, link pogo, see how much it'll take before it falls over.

18:00:56 mircea_popescu: by now the bricks are so shitty, and tolerance so easy, it's surprising what "digital apparatus" takes in terms of abuse.

18:01:07 mircea_popescu: much more than analog apparatus of a century ago, that's for damn sure.

18:01:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one of the other things about 'take rectifier and power 10 - or 20 in eu - in series' is that you get one of the problems of the chinese bricks, but in spades: ripple

18:01:54 asciilifeform: good dc brick has rectifier + large filter cap

18:02:00 asciilifeform: chinese - only the former

18:02:11 mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from spending the 35 bucks for a roll of 100 caps.

18:02:21 asciilifeform: 1 big.

18:03:13 mircea_popescu: eh, he CAN make a better series arrangement than what the brick does. for srs.

18:03:22 mircea_popescu: such is the power of artizanship in this day of industrial decay.

18:04:14 jurov: lmao mp publicly plots to kill danielpbaron by suggesting him to work with 300V directly from tap?

18:04:48 asciilifeform: and say he wants to switch one off ?

18:04:48 mircea_popescu: eh get out ; if he has a tv set he has 2kv or some shit in the house already.

18:04:49 mircea_popescu: who died ?

18:04:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would he want that ?

18:05:12 mircea_popescu: (think about it - do you recall your ONLY complaint to date re dcs ? do you ? hm ?)

18:06:00 jurov: yay 2kv, why not? moar pogos at once!!!

18:06:16 mircea_popescu: jurov careful with the mw unit also. some of those - 10kv!

18:06:50 asciilifeform: jurov: 100kV !111

18:06:58 asciilifeform: connect directly to street transformer!11

18:07:00 jurov: yes, why not steal from outdoor 60kV line diretly?

18:07:03 asciilifeform: aha

18:07:05 asciilifeform: l0l

18:07:15 *: mircea_popescu jew-york waves AGAIN

18:07:24 mircea_popescu: eeeeeeh!

18:07:58 *: asciilifeform pictures jacob's ladder in series with pogo rack

18:38:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9803 @ 0.00042123 = 4.1293 BTC [-]

18:39:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5697 @ 0.00041994 = 2.3924 BTC [-] {2}

19:26:30 BingoBoingo: <davout> danielpbarron: i may have an old ipnohe lying around if you ever feel like upgrading your blawg's hosting << I suggested "edgerouter lite" more OSen available than pogo to pick from

19:29:11 trinque: deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/2770X3X.txt

19:29:12 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UjDiAE )

19:31:27 trinque: deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/2770X3X.txt

19:31:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UjDiAE )

19:31:30 deedbot-: accepted: 1

19:31:41 trinque: good bot

19:41:33 trinque: alrighty! trb wallet deedbug fixed.

19:41:59 trinque: the problem was txn malleation, which confuses the wallet

19:42:22 trinque: thx to mod6 for the highs lows patch, using lows is helping deedbot- keep track of his dust

20:23:30 mircea_popescu: trinque> thx to mod6 for the highs lows patch, using lows is helping deedbot- keep track of his dust << win.

20:53:32 danielpbarron: !up Agentzeromobile

20:53:46 Agentzeromobile: Hey thx !

20:56:02 danielpbarron: yw, who are you?

20:56:34 Agentzeromobile: Ag3nt_zer0

20:56:56 trinque: ;;seen ag3nt_zer0

20:56:56 gribble: ag3nt_zer0 was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 8 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <ag3nt_zer0> good morning b-a

20:57:27 trinque: howdy, guy who claims to be ag3nt_zer0

20:58:00 Agentzeromobile: Just saw a funny article wanted to post but not sure if I change tabs to copy if I will be disconnected... I'll try here goes... Maybe if I disappear you could revoice me when I come back?

20:58:17 Agentzeromobile: Hey trinque haha it's me

20:59:11 Agentzeromobile: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/03/17/romanian-member-of-parliament-bribed-electorate-with-60-tonnes-of-fried-chicken/

20:59:12 assbot: Two Years In Prison For Politician Who Bribed Voters With 60-Tonnes Of Fried Chicken ... ( http://bit.ly/1U9Kz6D )

21:01:18 mircea_popescu: not exactly news this.

21:01:32 mircea_popescu: i think i even said soemthing at some point about it.

21:03:15 mircea_popescu: !up Agentzeromobilea

21:03:19 Agentzeromobilea: Got kicked I think...

21:03:22 deedbot-: [Qntra] EPA Goes To War Over Pond In Land Grab - http://qntra.net/2016/03/epa-goes-to-war-over-pond-in-land-grab/

21:03:42 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo : "EPA Land Grab : War Over Pond!"

21:03:49 Agentzeromobilea: Oh ok... Searched logs for fried chicken haha... Nothing

21:04:12 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: ty

21:04:19 mircea_popescu: wasn't this incident specifically. just, buying off rural/urban poor votes with refined sunflower oil / sugar / bla bla has been going on for decade plus.

21:04:24 mircea_popescu: not just romania, either.

21:05:20 Agentzeromobilea: Mr. Popescu was not an MP then, but was seeking re-election on a local council, reports the Telegraph. Despite it not being a seat in the national parliament Mr. Popescu saw fit to give away 60,992 kg of “grilled chicken”, ordering it in bulk from a local business and sending campaign volunteers to collect and distribute the meat. The prosecutor told the court every package of chicken was “distributed for el

21:05:23 Agentzeromobilea: Hehe

21:06:45 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=04-03-2016#1421493

21:06:45 assbot: Logged on 04-03-2016 02:31:01; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, romanians have been trading votes for years now. go in there with your smartphone, take pic of vote and id card, get 30 lei or w/e

21:06:50 mircea_popescu: most recent

21:07:36 asciilifeform: Mr. Popescu was not an MP then, << l0l

21:07:53 asciilifeform: ^ i can't help but wonder how this reads to peanut gallery !

21:08:04 mircea_popescu: lol

21:08:23 mircea_popescu: anyway, this derp must be new, i have never heard of him.

21:08:30 mircea_popescu: his career must i guess have started after 2010

21:08:51 Agentzeromobilea: Haha

21:09:58 mircea_popescu: anyway. by and large, the "cleanning out corruption" narrative is what happens to a colonized place, ie, after the top leadership was defeated.

21:10:14 mircea_popescu: it's how the shit played out in the us ; and the scheme is systematically repeated in every colony of the reich hence.

21:10:41 mircea_popescu: purging of the middle level. next in line comes the "sensitivity" bs.

21:11:08 mircea_popescu: if it weren't for the pesky armed insurection, iraq would be "cleanning up corruption" as we speak.

21:12:13 mircea_popescu: in better looking news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/b0527dbcf047732b4e83faac8a83ac7d/tumblr_o0qzvuP7Yx1upevjso1_1280.jpg

21:12:15 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1U9LqnR )

21:12:38 Agentzeromobilea: Anyone heard of or looked at this book America Betrayed by Dianne something?

21:17:46 Agentzeromobilea: It's interesting, unless you are already familiar with this history... Likely in this room...

21:19:12 Agentzeromobilea: Well good to say hello - thanks for the voicings!... Blessings upon your good works... See you later

21:23:30 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

21:23:34 gribble: Current Blocks: 403124 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 75 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 13 hours, 14 minutes, and 7 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

21:23:40 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

21:23:46 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 417.76, vol: 3763.05047867 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 417.0, vol: 5896.82233 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 418.0, vol: 8521.177924850001 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 422.195992, vol: 27240.44380000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 419.58, vol: 2039.12775141 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 422.603935, vol: 35.56503068 | Volume-weighted last average: 420.334635621

21:42:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32201 @ 0.00041993 = 13.5222 BTC [-] {2}

21:43:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23849 @ 0.00041975 = 10.0106 BTC [-]

21:52:13 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435187 << re this, i suppose i must point out that whatever i wrote must've been horribly mangled and deeply misunderstood (and i'd love to see exactly what quote ended up reprocessed into this).

21:52:13 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 15:08:02; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu wrote about how s&m with 'safeword' is retarded

21:52:13 mircea_popescu: the problem with safewords isn't that they're in-band to any degree. the problem with safewords is that they pretend to recast s/M relationships into a circus approximation. the submissive partner may not pretend to option as to when, or as to how the dominant partner extracts his pleasure out of his hide ; nor may (ipso facto inept) third parties purport to misrepresent any sexual relationship in terms other than stuf

21:52:13 mircea_popescu: f occurring between a submissive and a dominant partner.

21:52:14 mircea_popescu: "sex with safewords" is sex exactly in the sense the guy playing king richard in a theatrical production is king richard, the historical personage. "sex with safewords" is at best a brat's wet dream, and in general prostitution, in the vein of the pedicurist or hospital nurse's job - but in no case has anything to do with sex, nor can it occur among sane adults.

21:52:20 mircea_popescu: it's what children do when they want to play house but are affraid of getting caught.

21:53:15 mircea_popescu: and oddly related, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-11-2015#1319109

21:53:15 assbot: Logged on 07-11-2015 02:21:19; mircea_popescu: "In the world where the media postulates social media as an absolute requirement of the modern era-- the era where everything is fetishized-- no one is permitted to make the distinction between a value and the picture of a value, they are made equivalent, so daring to criticize Randi's baby pictures is made to sound like misogyny or misobaby. It's not. I love food but if you ask me to look at a pict

22:05:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the in-band thing is not as separable from your point as you think.

22:05:23 mircea_popescu: this argument is still open. i certainly see what you mean.

22:05:29 mircea_popescu: but in the end, there's only one band.

22:07:48 mircea_popescu: the concept of identifiably separate bands is as much a presumption about the "adversary" (properly said, of the context) as anything else.

22:08:50 mircea_popescu: notably, the derpy gnupg manual indicates "telephone" as a out-of-band mechanism to verify key fingerprints. is this so ? since when until when ? did it work back when phones were still analog ? does it work now ? why / why not ? etc.

22:09:04 asciilifeform: header says 'next 1,001 bytes is payload' and NOBODY ASKS PAYLOAD ANYTHING - is like proper sex.

22:09:15 asciilifeform: magic character escape idiocies, a la clearsign, is 'safeword sex.'

22:09:26 mircea_popescu: this i can get behind.

22:09:28 asciilifeform: payload is a passive thing.

22:09:36 asciilifeform: which is what i've been arguing for all along.

22:09:45 mircea_popescu: but it is also subtly different from the general band discussion.

22:10:07 asciilifeform: constraining the contents of the payload is evil.

22:10:21 mircea_popescu: so no crc for you ?

22:10:24 asciilifeform: and so is making the unwrapper stateful.

22:10:29 asciilifeform: crc is a header thing.

22:10:35 mircea_popescu: mno, crc is part of the payload ?

22:10:43 asciilifeform: nope./

22:10:49 asciilifeform: it is a function ~of~ the payload.

22:10:53 mircea_popescu: i suppose it necessarily can be put in the header huh.

22:10:55 asciilifeform: the latter can be arbitrary.

22:10:57 mircea_popescu: myeah, ok.

22:12:05 asciilifeform: the -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- crud is ~exactly~ a safeword.

22:12:13 asciilifeform: and especially so are the - ----- idiocies.

22:12:22 asciilifeform: and the winblowzated newlines.

22:12:28 mircea_popescu: hey, i'm not defending any of that.

22:12:41 asciilifeform: that's what clearsign is !

22:12:53 asciilifeform: you necessarily cannot have it without such things.

22:13:03 mircea_popescu: why not ? put a proper fucking header in there!

22:13:08 mircea_popescu: this is where we left this discussion last time!

22:13:34 asciilifeform: does fat lot of good given that just about all software mutilates line endings.

22:13:54 mircea_popescu: here. first line, the line index where signature begins. second line, the line index where payload begins. third line, the line count of the whole shebang.

22:13:55 mircea_popescu: done.

22:14:11 mircea_popescu: this is no excuse. fuck bad software.

22:14:22 mircea_popescu: i will NOT take bad implementations of ANYTHING into consideration when designing anything.

22:14:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i distinctly recall suggesting a scheme quite like this.

22:14:43 mircea_popescu: otherwise it's two steps to "but mp, some people are stupid, what should they do!"

22:14:47 asciilifeform: it pointedly does NOT cover the case of signing non-printables.

22:14:54 mircea_popescu: "fuck them, cook them and serve them to the pigs. fuck i care."

22:15:13 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there may not exist "nonprintables". as per your own theory!

22:15:14 asciilifeform: i wanna sign a tarball. or gif. now what.

22:15:21 asciilifeform: non-7bitclean.

22:15:28 asciilifeform: where there are no 'lines'.

22:15:58 mircea_popescu: hash it and sign that.

22:16:14 asciilifeform: no good.

22:16:27 asciilifeform: we end up signing a hash of a human-readable hash

22:16:37 mircea_popescu: huh ?

22:18:26 asciilifeform: think.

22:18:32 asciilifeform: you are narrowing your set.

22:18:47 asciilifeform: which, in the case of a wonderful thing like keccak, is entirely no good.

22:19:25 asciilifeform: and even in the case of sha2 is a waste.

22:19:29 asciilifeform: it is entirely like whitening.

22:19:30 mircea_popescu: i'm not about to give out the only workable way to make contracts since the fucking hansa

22:19:37 mircea_popescu: so some shitboxes can do things with "code".

22:19:41 asciilifeform: who said 'give out'

22:19:51 asciilifeform: just has to be planted in a sane framework

22:19:54 mircea_popescu: how are you going to preserve my clearsign ?

22:19:57 asciilifeform: rather than the mutilatory lunacy.

22:20:23 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same way we preserve anything, you gotta figure out what aspects are actually essential to the thing, and which - are really accidents

22:20:42 mircea_popescu: i can tell you. the text and the seal in the same place.

22:20:50 asciilifeform: what means 'same place'.

22:20:52 mircea_popescu: so no conveyance of one is possible without the other.

22:21:08 asciilifeform: this is not actually true of gpg clearsign

22:21:19 asciilifeform: i.e. any idiot can cut off the sig and convey payload without it

22:21:32 asciilifeform: and ditto the opposite

22:21:39 mircea_popescu: sure. any idiot can also cut off his head. so ?

22:21:53 asciilifeform: but what specifically do you mean here

22:21:59 asciilifeform: how is this a possible thing at all ?

22:22:03 mircea_popescu: this "separate signature" thing is an abomination.

22:22:15 asciilifeform: the signature is always physically separate

22:22:32 asciilifeform: though hm

22:22:35 mircea_popescu: in the sense your ballsac is physically separtate from your penis.

22:22:45 mircea_popescu: anyway, i'm going to speak at a whore's convention. will bbl.

22:22:46 mircea_popescu: hopefully.

22:22:49 asciilifeform: actually!

22:22:55 asciilifeform: distribute the exponentiated payload !111111

22:23:01 asciilifeform: ding.

22:23:02 asciilifeform: solved.

22:23:15 asciilifeform: tell it to the whores!1111

22:26:49 asciilifeform: however you cannot cat this to a line printer.


22:27:05 asciilifeform: this is intrinsic.

22:27:09 asciilifeform: and pretending otherwise is lunacy.

22:27:37 asciilifeform: a non-signed item is trivially derived from any signed item.

22:27:46 asciilifeform: pretending otherwise is what the idiot watermark folks do.

22:27:55 asciilifeform: !s what color are your bits

22:27:55 assbot: 2 results for 'what color are your bits' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=what+color+are+your+bits

22:28:02 asciilifeform: ^ and copyrasts, etc.

22:28:29 asciilifeform: bits - have no colour. signature is necessarily a removable wrapper around a payload.

22:34:20 asciilifeform: !up gabrielradio

22:41:36 jurov: can't we have the signature just slapped to the end of payload?

22:44:15 jurov: "the goal is to have whole piece" implies it is seekable, thus feasible to scan the file for signatures from the end

22:45:04 jurov: without any payload mutilations

22:59:49 asciilifeform: jurov: how do you know where the end is ??

23:00:20 jurov: is a file with some size

23:00:54 jurov: or we're getting rid of files, too?

23:00:59 asciilifeform: jurov: this solves nothing, it merely flips the problem on its head

23:01:16 asciilifeform: how does the pgptron know how big the signature is ?

23:01:23 asciilifeform: let's say it is at the end.

23:01:35 asciilifeform: this is just as problematic as agreeing that it is in the beginning of the file!

23:02:16 asciilifeform: i get it, you can 'dwim' in your head, 'my eyes know how big it is' - but how does THE MACHINE know.

23:03:02 jurov: this is unsolved problem?

23:03:04 asciilifeform: this is not a trivial problem, and it has popped up in the past in various guises

23:03:16 asciilifeform: e.g., the old mac os had dual-forked file system

23:03:30 asciilifeform: where there was a separate body for 'metadata' and another for what we think of as the file

23:03:48 asciilifeform: this was, iirc, abolished (though it reappeared in a perverted form in winblowz ntfs)

23:04:21 asciilifeform: in unix file has name, but also, as everyone knows, epochal date and access perms

23:04:35 asciilifeform: these are 'special' in the sense that fs stores them in designated places

23:04:47 asciilifeform: it is not any more or less retarded than the old mac os forks.

23:05:20 asciilifeform: but notice, at no point (since the dark ibm mainframe days anyway) did anyone suggest storing the access time, or perms, IN THE FILE proper

23:05:24 asciilifeform: because this is RETARDED

23:05:39 asciilifeform: you can't magic away the 'metadata' thing just by closing your eyes to it.

23:05:42 asciilifeform: it is an actual thing.

23:05:50 jurov: m$ office and their ilk does

23:06:01 asciilifeform: the clinically sad are no concern of mine.

23:06:14 asciilifeform: 'feed'em to pigz' as mircea_popescu said.

23:07:38 jurov: so your only "solution" is to force whole world to switch from bags of bytes to structured data?

23:07:52 asciilifeform: what switch.

23:07:56 asciilifeform: we already have structure.

23:08:01 asciilifeform: i propose - SANE STRUCTURE

23:08:16 asciilifeform: picture fs with a way to attach seals, say

23:08:22 asciilifeform: instead of idiocies like access time

23:08:39 asciilifeform: (it isn't useless, but a whole chunk of fs for them?!1)

23:08:42 jurov: xattrs do exist

23:08:56 jurov: but we're taling about exchanging stuff over internet

23:09:05 jurov: *talking

23:09:08 asciilifeform: aha and for that we do binary formats

23:09:13 asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu wants his fried ice

23:09:20 asciilifeform: i.e. something he can cat to a line printer

23:09:43 asciilifeform: ( ... and then somehow type back in, and have the sig pass ??????)

23:10:08 asciilifeform: incidentally anybody who actually tries the latter with pgp, is stuck with mutilated line endings

23:10:43 asciilifeform: because - guess what - a CR/LF, LF, or CR - LOOK THE SAME on the page.

23:12:16 asciilifeform: and every time i try to explain to him that his notion of 'text' is ill-defined and the actual mechanics, as implemented in unix world and elsewhere, are malignantly retarded

23:12:17 jurov: i guess he wants to sign semantics, not syntax.

23:12:37 asciilifeform: then he ought sign s-expressions.

23:13:14 asciilifeform: where the thing actually gets parsed out before the bignums are exponentiated

23:13:39 asciilifeform: so, e.g., spaces, are not represented as merely a byte but a #\Space

23:13:57 asciilifeform: this is the ultimate in 'in-band'. mega-ugly.

23:15:07 jurov: no, he wants everything converted to plain english. maybe even 5-bit code without support for newline characters.

23:15:20 jurov: and then sign that

23:15:40 asciilifeform: any way you cut it, trying to use a naked unix terminal for this is lunacy

23:15:53 asciilifeform: it only APPEARS to work for gpg

23:16:04 asciilifeform: at the cost of gpg being utterly retarded in 101 ways

23:16:28 asciilifeform: i.e. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435524

23:16:28 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 22:12:05; asciilifeform: the -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- crud is ~exactly~ a safeword.

23:17:18 asciilifeform: we need a word for this kind of thing

23:17:37 asciilifeform: the act of carrying on in a belied that a CONCEPTUALY BUGGY system is a working item

23:17:45 asciilifeform: merely because you have not explored the edge cases that break it

23:17:57 asciilifeform: (or, shamefully, explored, or had your face rubbed in them, and then forgot)

23:18:04 asciilifeform: *belief

23:18:55 *: asciilifeform bbl.

23:20:04 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> jurov: how do you know where the end is ?? << You run out of tape and have to flip it to the other side

23:31:59 mod6: got my treeware SICP and ADA ref manual today.

23:32:43 mod6: danielpbarron: thanks for writing that up on your blog. the job is yours if you want it. i'll write up something formal and we can go from there.

23:33:00 mod6: be a few days or something. will let you know. cheers!