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Transcript for 18-03-2014, 1561 lines:

00:00:23 asciilifeform: but it is generally limited to DOD desk-flyers, and uses an ms-outlook plugin

00:00:36 asciilifeform: key is kept on a card

00:00:45 asciilifeform: read by winblows driver

00:00:48 mircea_popescu: oh great.

00:00:52 asciilifeform: used to have one myself.

00:01:05 mircea_popescu: ninjashogun what's the problem with being called an idiot iyo ?

00:02:04 asciilifeform: card had mug shot and a serial number (for being taken prisoner, among other things! because contractors can also star in beheading vids.)

00:02:28 mircea_popescu: anyway, this vapid "half lie" model, and all the cruddy webapps/mobile apps stuff has very little life left in it, even in the fiat world.

00:02:28 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, well the main problem is that you need to reserve your hardest edge for when you need it the most. I've spend very long hours discussing very deep technical points without calling something "idiotic". It can be broken, wrong, unexpected, totally incompatible, etc. Those words are more specific.

00:02:30 mircea_popescu: this isn't the fiat world.

00:02:37 asciilifeform: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Img-card-topology-front.png

00:03:09 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, and more importantly those words allow the problem to be fixed.

00:03:30 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, my 'half-lie' model applies to everything that is new and being built.

00:03:33 ThickAsThieves: i did end up with some with some ATC, but haven't had the chance to keep up with it. it seems without tender loving care it cannot thrive.

00:03:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what they use that as a sort of cardano ?

00:03:39 ninjashogun: There are a TON of errors that are always hidden and swept under the rug.

00:03:58 mircea_popescu: ninjashogun no , it does not. it has nothing to do with anything other than the particular way the usg implements welfare for a certain subset of the youth population.

00:04:03 ninjashogun: The image of a startup is like a duck -calm above the water but paddling like hell underneath.

00:04:25 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, sorry what are you talking about not working?

00:04:32 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves so you're basically like thickoshi... abandoned it ?

00:04:54 mircea_popescu: ninjashogun none of the examples you cut out of the real world and pasted onto your model as "eventual upper bound results" have anything to do with the model itself.

00:05:02 BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Mabe try loving it again?

00:05:03 ThickAsThieves: i'm more likely to "

00:05:09 ThickAsThieves: come bacl"

00:05:09 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, could you be more specific please!

00:05:15 ThickAsThieves: i will

00:05:17 ThickAsThieves: probably

00:05:18 mircea_popescu: the vc circus as you represent it has not produced facebook, has not produced google, will never produce anything.

00:05:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think it takes hash of something and signs it (with embedded key) then shits it out

00:05:28 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I'm sorry you are factually mistaken.

00:05:35 asciilifeform: api is half-documented somewhere

00:05:45 mircea_popescu: well then we can end this conversation right here

00:05:57 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.59825 = 2.393 BTC [-] {2}

00:05:58 asciilifeform: a little like the 'opengpgsmartcard' but more winblowsy

00:06:00 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, let's walk through it. If Facebook had been the same in every way, except Mark Zuckerberg was transplanted to be an Oxford student instead (same skills, same drive, same ideas) - what would have happened?

00:06:00 ThickAsThieves: if i had access to reliable and worthy crypto developers i'd have probably spat out several companies and things by now

00:06:21 mircea_popescu: ninjashogun counterfactuals are good for reddit masturbation. this isn't a good venue for it.

00:06:39 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, the ansewr is very simple. he would not have gotten an investment or interest from peter thiel. Or any VC. And nobody outside of 10,000 people would know the word "facebook".

00:06:56 ThickAsThieves: problem is i'm not ready to commit to being a "CEO" of anything

00:06:56 ninjashogun: It shows you very clearly the role that VC money plays.

00:06:56 mircea_popescu: and oyu know this because why

00:06:58 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.5901 = 1.7703 BTC [-] {2}

00:07:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in case this isn't obvious, it is trivial to patch a chump's ms-outlook to color a mal-signed message the requisite colour.

00:07:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wait but isn't that illegal ?!

00:07:16 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was 'pki' crapola all the way down

00:07:18 asciilifeform: haha

00:07:22 mircea_popescu: lol.

00:07:36 ThickAsThieves: well that's *one* of my problems...

00:07:44 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I've lived in Boston, New York, San Francisco, Paris, Berlin (a bit) as well as some Eastern European cities. I've been interested in startups in all of them, have worked for one in the first dot-com bubble in the 90's. I can tell the difference between different climates and how people behave in them.

00:07:47 asciilifeform: thing worked exactly the way alert reader would expect it to.

00:07:48 mircea_popescu: you don't understand dood, i read in the guardian that the us caught a bunch of russian spies by displaying a dazzling array of technical superiority.

00:08:02 asciilifeform: rusty staples?

00:08:03 mircea_popescu: ninjashogun or so you think.

00:08:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform remember the hot ukrainian chick ? anna whatever ?

00:08:25 asciilifeform: aha

00:08:55 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, let me put it to you like this. If ughlol were farther along, and actually already convinced 10 engineers at his university to be 'cofounders' for equity totalling 5%, 95% to him (which would show GREAT founder skill) and got some traction. HIs company would still probably die, and those 10 people would leave. Because he is in India.

00:09:15 mircea_popescu: you know what a non sequitur is ?

00:09:26 ninjashogun: Now you repeat hte same thing in Cal Tech and he has a term sheet for $1M at $3M valuation within 3 weeks of launch.

00:09:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/07/us-swaps-russian-spies-for-russian.html

00:09:44 ninjashogun: and his company may OR MAY NOT die. But if it takes off, it's (in part) due to investor sentiment.

00:09:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah them

00:10:26 ninjashogun: To use another example. Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak built what turned out to be $500B company in very large part on the investment climate in the area.

00:10:38 ninjashogun: if they were two kids doing hte same thing in just about any part of the world, they would have nothing 30 years later.

00:11:02 mircea_popescu: jesus god.

00:11:12 mircea_popescu: dude, you know like a thin sliver of the pudding top.

00:11:26 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, yes, I know this.

00:11:37 ninjashogun: I know it from trying to build a hardware business, and suddenly seeing that none of that sliver is interested.

00:11:37 mircea_popescu: well so then stop hopping up and down on it

00:11:39 mircea_popescu: it's damned thin

00:11:57 asciilifeform: hasty pudding, no less.

00:12:08 mircea_popescu: here's a little known anecodte, kinda instructive as to the sort of guy jobs was :

00:12:09 asciilifeform: (for many years i thought 'making hasty pudding' meant 'shitting one's pants.')

00:12:35 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, in a lot of ways it's enshrined into the way MANY people think. Some of it is legal (only accredited investors can be targeted; accredited investors display groupthink). Other parts of it are cultural - a lot of people just feel the same way.

00:12:41 mircea_popescu: actually look at that, it's on wikipedia.

00:12:46 mircea_popescu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakout_(video_game)

00:12:47 ozbot: Breakout (video game) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

00:12:51 mircea_popescu: grep for bushnell offered

00:13:02 ninjashogun: ok

00:13:04 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 137 @ 0.00368 = 0.5042 BTC [+]

00:13:12 ninjashogun: is this about the money jobs didn't share?

00:14:19 mircea_popescu: no, it's about wozniak working his ass straight for 700 bucks, over 4 days.

00:14:31 mircea_popescu: that comes down to... 7 dollars an hour.

00:14:36 mircea_popescu: now tell me again about "the environment"

00:14:56 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, the way I interpret that is that Steve Jobs used the $5000 to start Apple and make his friend a billionaire.

00:15:07 mircea_popescu: woz was never a billionaire.

00:15:13 ninjashogun: No?

00:15:41 ninjashogun: fine, a $100Millionaire

00:16:50 ninjashogun: More to the point - for our purposes - you would not have lent the young Steve Jobs $5000 yourself, even if he had to repay 10x the amount, 50x the amount, 100x the amount, ore ven 500x the amount (at any point in the future) All of which would have been in his power.

00:17:03 ninjashogun: instead, he had to scam his friend for it. Just like Zuckerberg had to scam some map guy out of $2000.

00:17:42 asciilifeform: 'had to' ? jean valjean ?

00:17:46 ninjashogun: steve jobs could have borrowed $5000 from you and relent 500x as much. But you wouldn't have been interested. That is $2.5M.

00:17:58 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, yes, "had to"

00:18:00 mircea_popescu: you're on to creating counterfactuals about me now ?!

00:18:09 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 69 @ 0.00368799 = 0.2545 BTC [+] {2}

00:18:14 mircea_popescu: what's this, risk taking for fun and profit

00:19:06 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, fine. Lend me $17,000 now and at some point in my career I will repay you 500x (8.5M). I am 30 now and it has to be in the next 30 years.

00:19:46 mircea_popescu: so you're zuck now ?!

00:20:07 ninjashogun: I don't have to be zuck to repay $8.5M. Tens of thousands of people can do it, not just a few hundred billionaires.

00:20:17 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: is roughly a pound of flesh, with reasonable blood loss acceptable security?

00:20:22 mircea_popescu: i wish us schools went back to teaching logic and shit instead of all this self esteem and marketing bs they do

00:20:59 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: get a credit card?

00:21:10 only: lol

00:21:11 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: sell motorcycle?

00:21:17 asciilifeform: 17k isn't a fortune

00:21:32 ninjashogun: I don't htink $8.5M is a fortune. if I had that in cash today I wouldn't sit on it, I would do further startups.

00:21:35 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: One problem is mainstreaming, all the US students get exposed to the special ed curriculum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstreaming_%28education%29

00:21:50 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: you said you wanted 17k

00:21:57 ninjashogun: That doesn't mean I consider it a lot of money.

00:22:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 77 @ 0.003688 = 0.284 BTC [+]

00:22:14 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you know how to turn it into 8.5M, then borrow it from whoever

00:22:23 asciilifeform: the local mob, if you must

00:22:24 mircea_popescu: "We survive on donations averaging about 50 lei. Now is the time we ask. If everyone reading this right now gave 25 lei, our fundraiser would be done within an hour."

00:22:26 mircea_popescu: fuckwits

00:22:36 mircea_popescu: they can harp about obscure currency nobody heard about, they still won't bow to bitcoin

00:22:37 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I don't know how to turn it into $8.5M. If I did I wouldn't be talking about the next 40 years, would I?

00:22:57 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, likewise steve jobs did not know how to make a $500B company when he was 25.

00:23:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27200 @ 0.00088165 = 23.9809 BTC [-] {3}

00:23:39 ninjashogun: sorry, next 30 years ;-)

00:23:49 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "Access to a special education classroom, often called a "self-contained classroom or resource room", is valuable to the student with a disability."

00:23:58 mircea_popescu: so if it's valuable to X, why should Y pay for it ?

00:24:10 mircea_popescu: how great is this, they've invented the free lunch (again)

00:24:26 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I am not interested in being involved with the local mob. You seem to consider this a short-term thing, but that's not at all what I stated, is it?

00:25:09 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, "then borrow it from whoever". Funny how that goes, isn't it? That loan is how I came into this channel. It doesn't work like that.

00:25:24 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Cause self esteem. Seriously this shit started in the 1980's

00:25:29 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you live in usa, just about any bank will give you a credit card good for $20K+

00:25:35 asciilifeform: but, you gotta pay it back

00:25:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think you have to have a residence and income

00:25:52 asciilifeform: am i mistaken in my understanding that you don't like the 'paying back' part ?

00:25:52 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I'm from the USA but at the moment I'm not living there, I've been working on my proprietary hardware startup in a much lower-income country.

00:26:08 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, yes, you are quite mistaken in your understanding that I don't like the paying back part.

00:26:23 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: then why not go to a bank?

00:26:32 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, because I don't have assets?

00:26:43 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, because I've been working on my startup for no salary?

00:27:13 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, because banks don't consider incorporated companies with assigned intellectual property to be meaningful collateral?

00:27:15 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you take some employment (even temporarily) bank will lend you $.

00:27:59 ninjashogun: I don't have the time to take employment, even temporarily. Two months ago I was invited to give a demo with the working prototype as part of closing a $150K investment. I need to finish it.

00:28:12 asciilifeform: i'm not the least bit of 'rockefeller' but i shred & throw out 3-4 unsolicited 'platinum' cards in the snailmail every week or so

00:28:24 asciilifeform: they try to shove these things down your throat here

00:28:44 ninjashogun: More to the point, at this point taking the employment you talk of would entail abandoning my team here, all of my work and living arrangements (about $150/month burn rate), as well as somehow moving to an expensive city and working full time there. My startup would cease to exist.

00:28:48 asciilifeform: these people salivate, they dream, of lending money

00:29:28 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: take one of your loyal men and order him to do it, then

00:29:28 mircea_popescu: 150/month living arrangements ?!

00:29:34 mircea_popescu: that's a very small amount of harem right htere.

00:30:08 dub: its funny I dont get unsolicetd cards from my primary bank anymore

00:30:24 dub: after my house was burgled and an unopened one was used to defraud them :)

00:30:36 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, given my high-risk profile what APR would you (personally) extend me on between $7K-$22.5K (amount I take depends on APR) with no collateral except a registered Delaware C-Corp I'm currently full owner of (100%) going to 90% after an investment clears that I've committed to - the company has intellectual property including a patent that is pending and trademark that has been assigned, as well the equipment I

00:30:36 ninjashogun: would spend most of the money on can also become collateral.

00:31:22 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 150 @ 0.00368808 = 0.5532 BTC [+] {2}

00:31:28 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: around here, you only need collateral in the usual sense for a cash loan, but not for 'revolving credit'

00:31:41 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, yes, rent in a very small room in a very large shared apartment, is $111 (after some clever negotiation from me based on how infrequently the room could be rented out due to its size). This includes all eelectricity bills, the Internet (that I'm using now) hot water, gas, utilities.

00:31:44 asciilifeform: for the latter, you just need a human with some proof of income

00:31:56 mircea_popescu: incredible.

00:32:01 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I have no proof of income due to the fact that I have been working without pay for my startups (startup at the moment)

00:32:23 ninjashogun: sorry, I meant to write: without pay for my startup (and now startups) - as I started working on the jobs site one after spending more than a month trying to collect the loan I closed

00:32:29 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: so you built the mexican factory prior to, rather than after, securing funding. this is not a fatal mistake

00:32:34 mircea_popescu: well once your hardwar estart-up succeeds this will be pretty epic material.

00:32:43 asciilifeform: just take one of the loyal men and order him to get temporary job and borrow.

00:32:56 ninjashogun: I was extended this loan (basically) we did up paperwork for it and then I've been trying to collect it for over 5 weeks without luck. I can't get back in contact wiht the person (after exchanging many forms of contact). so so much after how easy it is to get a loan.

00:33:11 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, sorry - I don't get your analogy?

00:33:24 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.067 = 0.201 BTC [-]

00:34:12 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, oh, you liken my arrangement here to a mexican factory? Well the problem with that is that this is where the development was being done, not production. We ahve a manufacturing partner lined up actually, production will be in China.

00:34:35 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I had to make an unbelievable amount of progress to get offered a seed round on a hardware project that has not yet been completed and has no traction.

00:34:43 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: traditionally, one first secures capital and only then gets on the hook for business obligations (employees, factory floor, etc.)

00:35:01 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, at this point I need the loan in order to get to the stage of prototype that the investors need to test (as part of their due dilligence also) and see in close to the final form factor.

00:35:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 37 @ 0.0036944 = 0.1367 BTC [+] {4}

00:35:44 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I know how one "traditionally" secures capital, but it is usually against assets such as a house, etc.

00:36:06 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, in startups, on the other hand, it's usual to build an MVP using processes that don't scale, and without spending much money, until financing is secured.

00:36:15 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if i were anyone else, i'd swallow this. but i'm doing much the same thing you said you did (hardware startup) but without passing begging hat

00:36:27 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 84 @ 0.00373263 = 0.3135 BTC [+] {2}

00:36:31 asciilifeform: http://fraudsters.com/category/snsa/

00:36:32 ozbot: S.NSA pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

00:37:57 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, did you already discuss a $7M investment, implying a valuaiton of $15M, with a VC who has recently made a $400M exit in another consumer hardware company?

00:37:58 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: i know what you'll answer: 'having a day job sucks.' and sure. but then you can pay for hardware, prototype runs, etc. without begging

00:38:44 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: nope. and i'm not a baron, duke, anything, no titles of nobility

00:38:48 asciilifeform: and implied values thereof

00:38:51 ninjashogun: I don't mean to say anything about hte level of ambition you have in your hardware startup but usually a certified lab for developing ours costs $60K, which I am going to do on about $8K in used eBay equipment.

00:39:17 ninjashogun: (this is certified 2.4 ghz wireless equipment, this portion)

00:39:50 ninjashogun: Note that the wireless portion doesn't exist at all. I don't even have a specan (spectrum analyzer). The only eqiupment I developed is with large arduinos, as well as mockups of what it could look like.

00:39:53 asciilifeform: sometimes you just can't play. i, for instance, might like to start a pharma company, but i checked my sofa cushions and there is not $1B to be found therein

00:40:03 asciilifeform: (which local government requires for clinical trials)

00:40:04 ninjashogun: But you can't show an investor a mockup, and a bundle of wires, and say, imagine if the latter looked like the former!

00:40:09 asciilifeform: so i didn't start a pharma co.

00:40:11 asciilifeform: imagine that

00:41:09 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: try 'gold phoenix ltd.' (china) for prototypes.

00:41:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought you used to be a duke

00:41:16 asciilifeform: very reasonably priced and respected

00:41:18 asciilifeform: ahahaha

00:41:28 mircea_popescu: how's the esteemed mr yarvin these days ?

00:41:29 mircea_popescu: still leaking ?

00:41:38 asciilifeform: (for those not in the know: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1352)

00:41:44 asciilifeform: seems like it.

00:41:47 asciilifeform: like a sieve.

00:41:48 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, again, this is why I mention that Steve Jobs (a kid who stole $5000 from his best and only friend to start Apple), Mark Zuckerberg (a guy who scammed a map website guy out of $2000 to start facebook), and Larry Page (a poor grad student who had to give $50B away in equity to get an immigrant to code up his Larry Page Rank), also did not have the means to play.They couldn't play. They did anyway.

00:42:09 mircea_popescu: maybe we should have a bet : katecraig wood delivers before yarvin's submarine plane stops leaking.

00:42:55 mircea_popescu: ninjashogun you know what the selection fallacy is ?

00:43:22 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, fine. AirBNB had to sell Cereal. Yes Cereal. To fund their idea of a C2C ebay of Rentals.

00:43:28 mircea_popescu: no listen.

00:43:37 mircea_popescu: you only know the names of these dudes because you know the names of these dudes.

00:43:38 ninjashogun: https://www.airbnb.com/obamaos

00:43:39 ozbot: Obama O's: Hope in every bowl

00:43:40 ninjashogun: that's what they sold

00:43:45 mircea_popescu: you don't know the names of all the dudes that you don't know the names of.

00:44:08 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, so how would I learn from them? What use are they to me?

00:44:23 mircea_popescu: well, they'd be the use to you that they'd give you a useful picture of the world.

00:44:29 asciilifeform: day 1: a certain mr. smith wins lottery, $100M, lights $100 with $100 full of cocaine, on tv. day 2: stinking bum knocks on yer door - 'lend me $5.' you: 'why should i lend to a stinking bum?' bum: 'if i'd had $5, i could've won just like smith'

00:44:31 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, also, if my investors don't know of them, i can't leverage their background to get an investment, either.

00:44:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 94 @ 0.00374 = 0.3516 BTC [+]

00:44:36 mircea_popescu: as it is you're proceeding on a very poor sample

00:45:23 mircea_popescu: generally, the prisons are full of people who perceived they can't afford to play their chosen game and decided to try and play anyway.

00:45:33 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I think your model is a very, very fair one under normal circumstances. (Such as the Efficient Market Hypothesis.) However, I have very deep theoretical proof that your model is mistaken, and that these founders were in fact leveraging the same opportunity inefficiency that I am.

00:45:51 mircea_popescu: well, not a bad way to spend a life.

00:46:07 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I don't know about the criminals, generally they're not very smart. But I do know about founders and creating something.

00:46:12 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: so what are you wasting time with us for? go rob someone

00:46:32 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I was actually responding to the earlier statement (day 1: ...lottery) with my statement about his model being wrong.

00:46:45 ninjashogun: The lottery model of startups is simply mistaken and wrong.

00:46:55 ninjashogun: You can know this for a fact ,because

00:46:56 mircea_popescu: and evil.

00:47:04 ninjashogun: I don't know if it's evil or not but it's factually mistaken.

00:47:23 asciilifeform: the lottery model applies when you are (from our point of view) a total wildcard.

00:47:38 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: That doesn't mean you can't grab a tire iron and supply a pawn shop with tvs until your enterprize is "funded"

00:47:42 mircea_popescu: technically speaking the cards in the deck are a deterministic machine

00:47:48 mircea_popescu: so not really any sort of lottery.

00:47:59 asciilifeform: it's a lottery to the fellow who doesn't know the rng seed.

00:48:03 ninjashogun: You can convince yourself of this fact by being nearly 100% sure that more than $190B in wealth would be created if 10,000 qualified engineering and bioscience etc grad student founders were funded at $200K each for 100 years. It's not a lottery - it's just some unusual percentages.

00:48:10 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i wonder why not more people starting businesses from inside a us prison

00:48:15 mircea_popescu: they get free food and net access afaik

00:48:32 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, the answer is that they do not have the right socioeconomic perspective.

00:48:51 mircea_popescu: what's a socioeconomic perspective

00:49:04 asciilifeform: afaik the u.s. socialist party was run from inside of a jail for a while.

00:49:12 asciilifeform: so for certain values of 'business' - it wurks.

00:49:14 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Net access not so much, but... mail and telephones were good enough for IBM

00:49:21 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, it's the same reason (to be honest) that very few Romanians found startups and that you would have had far more trouble finidng cofounders if you didnt' want to do it alone, than you would have in (for example), Berlin, Rome, Brussels, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc.....

00:49:33 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i thought they had interwebs too, no ?

00:49:43 ninjashogun: it's a cultural issue.

00:50:04 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Maybe in limited cases, but The US isn't quite Norway or Denmark

00:50:23 asciilifeform: i'd venture to guess that there are many romanian startups. just not registered officially.

00:50:32 asciilifeform: (with bureaucrats)

00:50:33 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, that is part of what I mean

00:51:13 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, can you imagine doing due dilligence on a company that isn't even registered? That means only best friends can invest. Your pool of potential investors is literally limited to 7-20 people, no matter who you are in Romania. (Because that's how many people you trust through highschool.)

00:51:35 ninjashogun: I'm generalizing, but only a little bit.

00:51:42 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 106 @ 0.00374 = 0.3964 BTC [+]

00:51:43 ninjashogun: It's what was different about Palo Alto, for example.

00:51:54 mircea_popescu: i dunno, rav for instance is a romanian startup

00:51:57 mircea_popescu: so is gecad

00:52:01 mircea_popescu: and a bunch of other stuff.

00:52:05 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, I don't mean to pick on Romania. For many of my examples I'm really thinking of Hungary, and using it as an analogy.

00:52:08 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: did i just fall through time warp? 'mpex' not built yet?

00:52:30 mircea_popescu: ungary is a tiny country.

00:52:35 ninjashogun: The question isn't whether it was built - but how many Romanian cofounders or investors were on board?

00:53:03 ninjashogun: romania has 21M people in it, Ungary has 10M

00:53:08 mircea_popescu: doesn't seem likely you'll ever know that.

00:53:10 ninjashogun: so about half the size by population

00:53:33 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, well I could just ask you. Not really that interested.

00:53:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29820 @ 0.00088581 = 26.4149 BTC [+] {2}

00:53:51 mircea_popescu: every country ends up doing something. while hungary owned porn romania owned computers.

00:53:52 mircea_popescu: each his own

00:53:59 ninjashogun: :)

00:54:17 mircea_popescu: but i know plenty of hungarian folk that really killed it in the 90s

00:54:37 ninjashogun: mostly on state privatization though no?

00:54:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5282 @ 0.00088895 = 4.6954 BTC [+] {2}

00:54:49 mircea_popescu: no, on porn.

00:54:52 ninjashogun: The ones I know that made a killing did so by immigrating to the United States :)

00:55:06 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, what does your hardware startup do?

00:55:25 ninjashogun: or what are you building?

00:55:45 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: a small gizmo, described here: http://fraudsters.com/snsa-first-product-the-cardano

00:56:06 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: it's on mp's site, he's co-author

00:56:29 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: http://fraudsters.com/category/snsa/

00:56:39 ninjashogun: ok

00:56:48 ninjashogun: I'm reading that page

00:57:09 mircea_popescu: where did pankkake disappear to anyway

00:57:42 ninjashogun: that first paragraph isa joke right? ("what's the idea")? like it's pseudo-lofty, right?

00:57:45 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: That's a very good question

00:58:28 ninjashogun: anyway it's a good intro :)

00:58:29 mircea_popescu: ninjashogun people who don't have to supervise their own humours to please a third party behave differently than the us norm.

00:58:37 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: not joke

00:58:50 ninjashogun: It's an intersting introduction. In the end I like it :)

00:58:57 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i recall he was prepping for some surgery i hope they didn't end up cutting the wrong part.

00:59:11 ninjashogun: I just wasn't sure if the tone is somewhat pseudo- or ironic, or it's meant to be read "straight"

00:59:16 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: That would be a terrible shame

00:59:33 asciilifeform: well, that's how Korolev died

00:59:37 mircea_popescu: hahaha

00:59:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did i actually write that ?!

01:00:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the intro thing? one of us did

01:00:10 asciilifeform: forget which

01:00:22 mircea_popescu: me too

01:00:26 asciilifeform: lol

01:00:51 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 7136 @ 0.00015003 = 1.0706 BTC [-] {7}

01:00:52 mircea_popescu: half why i even keep that blog, if i didn't write the shit up i'd end up forgetting it all.

01:00:57 asciilifeform: same

01:01:35 asciilifeform: used to just piss thing out into emacs orgmode but it helps when people harangue you to remember shit.

01:02:31 ninjashogun: So, I like the idea very much.

01:02:38 ninjashogun: That you've put here.

01:03:00 mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/2014/02/24/everything-you-know-about-ukraine-is-wrong/

01:03:01 ozbot: Everything you know about Ukraine is wrong | PandoDaily

01:03:05 mircea_popescu: this is like remarkably good.

01:03:12 mircea_popescu: im starting to like pando

01:05:31 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I have a suggestion for your next version. My suggestion is that the air gap with the computer be maintained, by running (a different brick) that is a wireless access point. You can connect to its wifi and use Firefox on localhost to upload and sign or upload and encrypt/decrypt files, which it would then serve back. This requires a computer with access to WIFI. However, I think in general a network stack

01:05:31 ninjashogun: is more resilient than a USB stack against, for example, man in the middle attacks (if someone knows that you will use that usb drive they could put a fake USB controller in that MITM attacks it.

01:05:39 ninjashogun: this suggestion isn't for the current version, which as a piece of hardware is great.

01:05:45 asciilifeform: 'he crowds in Kiev, which can swell up to a million on a good day and are always in the hundreds of thousands, are there out of their own homegrown sense of outrage, not because some State Department bureaucrats willed them there' << author knows, or not, what it costs to feed & shovel shit for 1M-strong crowd ?

01:06:23 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: wifi. with ssl, right. troll much ?

01:06:36 ninjashogun: it would also save a connect and disconnect. And can be done unobtrusively at a computer, without having to insert a USB stick.

01:07:08 ninjashogun: it could also come iwth storage, so that it could be used as a "wireless storage device" (thru the browser). rather than have to plug and unplug a usb stick.

01:07:12 asciilifeform: trolling or total ignorance of the engineering realities. which?

01:07:21 mircea_popescu: to further save costs, the entire thing could be done over the web, as an app

01:07:27 mircea_popescu: with the dongle as a central server

01:07:31 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, let me think about this.

01:07:39 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform have an aspirin.

01:08:05 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, Why not? assume that the other end is in the person's home. Then the wireless key is truly unusable.

01:08:30 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'watch this video of Yanukovych?s snipers murdering unarmed protesters and tell me who the real fascists' << lol

01:08:39 ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, in fact it could be set to ONLY sign/encrypt/decrypt the next 1 message or 2 messages. So that it can't be stolen off someone's body, as it's in theri home and will only sign the next 2 things.

01:09:07 ninjashogun: I think this would be an interesting application for using one's private key without having it in one's possession.

01:09:15 mircea_popescu: definitely.

01:09:18 mircea_popescu: could even be an app

01:09:37 ninjashogun: :) I undrestand what you're doing with the USB thing. However, I, personally, do not consider USB stacks to be very secure.

01:09:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, did you vote ? :p

01:09:48 mircea_popescu: but srsly, what are your politics on the matter ?

01:09:53 asciilifeform: vote?

01:09:59 ninjashogun: I think there are a lot of unknowns over USB and it is a frequently underestimated attack vector, with very little security research being done.

01:10:04 asciilifeform: 22 yrs. in mordor

01:10:06 mircea_popescu: yes, there was a referendum neh ?

01:10:07 diametric: ninjashogun: but you do configure wifi secure? lol..

01:10:12 diametric: consider even.

01:10:44 ninjashogun: I think wifi security has more attention paid to it, yes. Even when it's broken. Many eyes make security deeper.

01:10:44 asciilifeform: me mom & pop voted 'nay' in ua indep. referendum in '91.

01:11:07 asciilifeform: then we got on the plane.

01:11:11 mircea_popescu: how did that split ? 15/85 ?

01:11:14 ninjashogun: But this is not to detract from what you've done, asciilifeform (and mircea_popescu ?) Overall the device is a VERY good step.

01:11:39 ninjashogun: and I like the basic idea of not having your key on another PC.

01:11:43 asciilifeform: 92+ 'yay'

01:12:06 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Doesn't Wifi violate the intent of an airgap even if there is "air" involved

01:12:19 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - yes, absolutely.

01:12:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what was so bad about independence ? (trying to educate myself)

01:12:29 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: our friend is either trolling - or slept in a cave for years

01:12:31 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - you are right and for this reason I probably shouldn't ahve called it an "air" gap.

01:13:02 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, however, it is absolutely doubtless that wifi protocols get roughly 100x as much security research as the usb protocol does.

01:13:06 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: decolonialization is fun for some people, less for others.

01:13:48 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: I mean why not some sort of cable that might only incidentally happen to function as an antenna, for which shielding is possibly. WHy demand an active antenna throwing your bits around?

01:14:36 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, also, in my personal opinion as a security observer, a man in the middle attack with a PC (or laptop) being opened, and a second usb host being inserted between the real USB and the device, whose purpose is to subtlely alter what is being signed, is a very real risk.

01:14:59 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there is a version of the apparatus (exists on my desk only, for foreseeable future) with no cables. slide cards in/out.

01:15:04 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, since this device as described does NOT retain the signed document in memory, it is therefore signing something without knowing what it is, if it has been transferred between the PC and storage medium.

01:15:30 ninjashogun: I mean it retains no knowledge of what it signed. The person can't go home and check everything they've signed.

01:15:37 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but in that version, you lose the card crypto

01:17:00 ninjashogun: What changes with Wifi? Well, you can still have a man in the middle, but it would be much more prohibitive. It would need a complete access point that connects to the device masquarading as the computer, while exposing itself to the computer and hiding the true signal from the computer. It's possible, but more difficult. And in the end the computer can do a complete secure session (in javascript with the browser) compl

01:17:00 ninjashogun: etely defeating the MITM.

01:17:07 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06894998 = 0.2068 BTC [+]

01:17:21 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: wifi mitm takes all of five minutes to set up.

01:17:24 asciilifeform: try it personally

01:17:27 asciilifeform: don't take my word for it

01:17:27 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: My concern with WiFi is packet capture.

01:18:06 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, packet capture is not a concern because you can establish a higher secure channel from Firefox on the computer all the way to the final device. This is possible because hte device can have a known fingerprint.

01:18:20 ninjashogun: and it doesn't matter if there are devices in the way.

01:18:55 diametric: mircea_popescu: your email exchange with the "SEC" is fantastic.

01:19:03 ninjashogun: However, the current version transfers files in the plain over the USB protocol. it is 100% vulnerable to a USB mitm - which could probably be made so small that it almost fits in a usb drive.

01:19:13 dignork: ninjashogun, your Firefox will trust almost any certificate, unless you'd verify it manually

01:19:16 mircea_popescu: diametric why so ?

01:19:17 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: suggested experiment. take a radio transmitter (a household walkie-talkie will do) and transmit, with a computer sitting nearby.

01:19:31 asciilifeform: watch the output with a receiver, see the little fuzz on the wave?

01:19:43 asciilifeform: our friends at ft. meade call this 'NONSTOP'

01:19:48 asciilifeform: (not to be confused with 'TEMPEST')

01:19:53 diametric: mircea_popescu: I enjoy your style of writing, and I wonder if she was prepared for that kind of response. I'm highly interested to see if anything else comes of it

01:19:57 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, ....?

01:20:05 mircea_popescu: she was utterly unprepared, from what i hear.

01:20:13 mircea_popescu: the entire social stack was unprepared.

01:20:22 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, okay.

01:20:24 asciilifeform: i wish i had the energy to explain here, for stone age man, how a radio works

01:20:27 mircea_popescu: apparently somehow they still don't see me coming, it's fascinating.

01:20:55 asciilifeform: but essence is: there is an amplifier. it takes a small signal, uses it to modulate a carrier wave

01:21:10 ninjashogun: dignork, it doesn't matter who firefox trusts. You can run a complete tunnel using javascript all the way to the final end-point. The whole point of PKI is that it doesn't matter who sniffs packets.

01:21:10 BingoBoingo: I wonder how Many interns have been charged with reading fraudsters nao.

01:21:31 mircea_popescu: a javascript pki tunnel

01:21:31 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I get your point.

01:21:34 ninjashogun: sure

01:21:49 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo bout a dozen in the bucharest residentura.

01:21:51 ninjashogun: it makes sense to me. You can always assume any computer will have javascript, and a wifi.

01:22:04 ninjashogun: the wifi connects either a) to your device or b) to a MITM that connects to your device

01:22:15 asciilifeform: ;;google NONSTOP TEMPEST

01:22:15 gribble: An Introduction to TEMPEST - SANS Institute: http://www.sans.org/reading-room/whitepapers/privacy/introduction-tempest_981; NSA TEMPEST Documents - Cryptome: http://www.cryptome.org/nsa-tempest.htm; NACSEM 5112 NONSTOP Evaluation Techniques - Cryptome: http://cryptome.org/nacsem-5112.htm

01:22:27 dignork: ninjashogun, your javascript is downloaded by firefox, from forgeable location ... p0wned

01:23:58 ninjashogun: dignork - hmmm.. Well, on Mac and Linux you could do an md5sum or sha1sum on the javascript before you run it. On Windows you can only use a custom certificate, signed by yourself, and know the issuer.

01:24:12 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: cardano is optionally usable inside a faraday cage. put that in your pipe & smoke.

01:24:14 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894998 = 0.1379 BTC [+]

01:24:27 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, this is not to take anything away from cardano - I like it.

01:24:37 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I was just suggesting some directions for version 2 or 3.

01:24:48 ninjashogun: (my hardware has future versions as well, that we haven't done any work toward)

01:24:53 asciilifeform: 'browser'? 'javascript'? 'ssl'? no thanks

01:25:11 asciilifeform: i don't have anything against a man who eats turd. but i will eat, and serve my friends, sausage. not turd.

01:25:31 asciilifeform: and to me they are not the least bit similar.

01:25:32 ninjashogun: Overall I would suggest you consider it due to the amount of security attention that 1) the WIFI stack 2) browser communications, have received. You can leverage that.

01:25:37 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ninjashogun: remember to ground the faraday cage

01:25:49 mircea_popescu: yeah, leverage.

01:26:09 mircea_popescu: leveraged security is like pretty cool

01:26:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 100 @ 0.0160071 = 1.6007 BTC [-] {6}

01:26:18 ninjashogun: what, do you not like the word?

01:26:29 BingoBoingo: Like leveraged gambling... Until they come for your kneecaps

01:26:36 mircea_popescu: i despise the entire thinking process that got you there.

01:27:03 ninjashogun: Fine, you can take advantage of that; you can make us of it; you can profit from it; you can be an indirect beneficiary of it; you can depend on it; you can rely on it; you can take it for granted

01:27:11 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu - be so kind as to take care of our dear guest. i'ma lie down now.

01:27:12 ninjashogun: make use of*

01:27:24 mircea_popescu: i tihnk it's been enough for a day tbh.

01:27:24 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, before you go -

01:27:26 ninjashogun: what is that APR?

01:27:34 ninjashogun: on the $7-$22.5K?

01:27:49 asciilifeform: in gringolandia, 20% mebbe.

01:28:25 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, if I can have up to a 3 year grace period I would accept that with the full $22.5K.

01:28:59 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Have you considered that rather than leveraging a complex behemoth of other people's work which was produced with the potential of malice towards your intended cause, you could just make something simpler.

01:29:15 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - I always consider the simplest hting that could possibly work.

01:29:34 BingoBoingo: Wifi and browsers are never the simplest things

01:30:21 ninjashogun: I disagree, I think firefox running javascript is one of the simplest things to develop and target 100% of PC's with. Also it would work on some tablets, which have no USB subcomponent at all, but do have copy and paste and wifi connections.

01:30:22 BingoBoingo: For all of the "work" on Wifi and browser security neither is particularly secure

01:30:50 BingoBoingo: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2334572/mozilla-firefox-is-exploited-four-times-at-hps-pwn2own-hacking-contest

01:30:51 ozbot: Mozilla Firefox is exploited four times at HP's Pwn2own hacking contest- The Inquirer

01:30:54 ninjashogun: on an iPad and iPhone, you can copy the text, connect to the brick's wifi, paste it, copy the result, and then reconnect to your normal wifi. These things don't have a USB stack at all.

01:31:25 BingoBoingo: Sure, but your wifi broadcast traves how far from its point of origin?

01:31:52 ninjashogun: Again, it doesn't matter if you reimplement PKI over javascript.

01:32:00 BingoBoingo: Then your browser can scarcely sandbox javascript?

01:32:23 ninjashogun: Better than it can a usb subsystem, yes.

01:32:47 ninjashogun: I don't think packet sniffing is a problem if you tunnel over it.

01:33:13 ninjashogun: Again, none of this is to take away from the design as I've already read about it here. I like it a lot.

01:33:24 dignork: ninjashogun, alternatively, you could tunnel over usb

01:33:35 ninjashogun: dignork - yes, it would also be a good idea.

01:33:43 ninjashogun: dignork - but then they could no longer treat it as a mass-storage device.

01:33:48 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: I'm not defending his design. I'm am suggesting your "improvements" are abominable

01:34:08 BingoBoingo: Honestly the improvement from USB would probably be RS-232

01:34:23 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - I learned of this literally 20 minutes ago. My improvements already have something that can at least theoretically work with an iPad and iPhone, which loads of people do their surfing on in the evening, and certainly don't want to keep keys on.

01:34:45 ninjashogun: you're on the couch on your iPad, want to sign something an email it. Are you going to keep your key on your iPad?

01:34:51 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Are you familiar with the actual concept of an airgap.

01:34:51 ninjashogun: no.

01:35:00 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, Yes, I am. I realize this is not an airgap.

01:35:16 BingoBoingo: http://fraudsters.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/

01:35:17 ozbot: How to airgap. A practical guide. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

01:36:12 BingoBoingo: It isn't just about the definition of an airgap, but of the motivations behind it as well that make radio the wrong medium for connecting to such boxes

01:36:14 asciilifeform: ok i'm back, because this is just too precious.

01:36:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 263 @ 0.00379999 = 0.9994 BTC [+] {2}

01:36:46 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you'll be happy to learn that the box has rs232 now. (ttl level voltage)

01:36:53 BingoBoingo: Sweet!

01:37:31 BingoBoingo: I have a reason to get another SE/30

01:37:50 ninjashogun: on http://fraudsters.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ - I would also suggest running several copies of hte same hardware next to each other. If they're all doing something, how is someone going to know which is the one that is of interest. This can even subvert someone physically ocming in and using it in your absence.

01:37:56 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: still gotta yank cables before rsa rom receives power though.

01:38:22 ninjashogun: also the EM radiation might be similar when coming off of several similar computers.

01:38:33 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: That's fine.

01:39:16 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Or just blast the area with cheap crt tv's playing reality shows, sound off.

01:39:23 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, by the way don't let the haters take anyting away. All of my suggestoin are at a single layer - and do not in ANY way impact the basic idea you've come up with with mircea_popescu --- which is a VERY good one. I don't really add anything in my suggestoins - it is the same design. You should patent it.

01:39:31 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you did not know the fact that a radio transmitter radiates not only what you want, but the state of nearby circuit, you know now.

01:39:58 asciilifeform: this was a carefully kept secret for decades (if only from american public) so there is no shame in not knowing

01:40:24 ninjashogun: the basic thing that you came up with is an escrowed key service embodied in a physical device that does not disclose the key, but uses it and discloses the result. This is a very good invention.

01:41:00 ninjashogun: asciilifeform - how could it be kept from the public? Wouldn't every electrical engineer with a scope see it?

01:41:07 asciilifeform: perhaps Semmelweis should have patented doctor washing hands.

01:42:11 BingoBoingo: It's probably not too late for that

01:42:32 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0038 = 0.19 BTC [+]

01:43:07 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the fact is, if you want to get this into millions of people's hands you will have to invest half a million in research and manufacturing. it could be the only secure device in their whole household (if they run windows.)

01:43:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually dr semmelweis is a major moment in the cultural history of medicine

01:43:10 asciilifeform: 'U.S. Patent XXXXXXX: Method of preventing cadaverous poisoning using liquid dihydrogen monoxide.'

01:43:25 mircea_popescu: when otherwise nice, smart guys realised that they had literally killed hundreds of women

01:43:34 asciilifeform: i mentioned S for a reason.

01:43:51 mircea_popescu: a major cultural shock, that.

01:43:52 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, if you have to compete with Kingston copying your idea then you are dead in the water. You can't even make it to market.

01:44:15 ninjashogun: maybe 20 years is too long for a patent to be valid - then consider donating it after 3 years or 7 years. You can assign it to a protective Open Source patent fund.

01:44:45 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: I think the point of the Cardano is it serves people who can not even entirely trust the security of *nix systems

01:45:14 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, I like it. It's also something you can unobtrusively carry around.

01:45:20 BingoBoingo: Generally that distrust is the sort that comes from an abundance rather than a dearth of knowledge

01:45:27 mircea_popescu: "it made me so miserable that life seemed worthless" and so on

01:45:41 asciilifeform: if kingston, ibm, fuck, elektronika, were physically capable of building cardano, you would already have one.

01:45:48 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - in the eventual wifi version, no one would have to know that you even use it. if being surveilled by site, it wouldn't be obvious that it's on your person. (or whether it is).

01:46:06 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, that's not true. They don't like to innovate.

01:46:11 asciilifeform: there is an engineering term, 'ullage'

01:46:12 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, but they do love to use other people's innovations.

01:46:13 asciilifeform: do you know it?

01:46:21 ninjashogun: me? no.

01:46:28 asciilifeform: it's the key ingredient in hydrogen bomb, for instance.

01:46:40 asciilifeform: it means, roughly, 'emptiness'

01:46:48 asciilifeform: a correctly-shaped absence of something.

01:46:53 dignork: ninjashogun, take RasPI, hook up wifi dongle and build one, maybe someone will buy, why arguing?

01:47:33 bitcoinpete: All done mircea_popescu

01:47:34 ninjashogun: dignork - you misinterpret my tone if you think I'm arguing. I like the idea of the Cardano very much, I think it's a genuine, useful, good, and non-obvious innovation, and I encourage asciilifeform in building it and getting it to market.

01:47:37 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06894998 = 0.6895 BTC [+] {2}

01:47:38 bitcoinpete: http://bitcoinpete.com/2014/mircea-popescu-the-sec-wont-let-me-be/

01:47:38 ozbot: Mircea Popescu: “The SEC Won’t Let Me Be.” Or, “I’ve Been Expecting You.” | When Bitcoin

01:47:52 asciilifeform: required reading:

01:47:53 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1299

01:47:54 ozbot: Loper OS » Don’t Blame the Mice.

01:48:11 asciilifeform: if you could take raspi or whatever, remove the mystery meat, add analogue rng - you would not need cardano.

01:48:25 ninjashogun: dignork - further I don't have any problem with it in the current form. I think asciilifeform should patent it. I also suggest he work on just one layer of the solution, which is the physical transport layer, and consider bluetooth or wifi.

01:48:33 asciilifeform: but if you take raspi, or pc on your desk, or whatnot, and remove the diseased meat, you will have... an empty crate.

01:48:45 mircea_popescu: bitcoinpete now the work of submitting to hn and the smokinggun and so on begins :D

01:48:50 ninjashogun: dignork, but for the next version.

01:48:58 ninjashogun: dignork, after selling thousands of this one :)

01:49:21 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: you were told about 'nonstop' and continue to suggest radio transmitters. inattention, or willful ignorance ?

01:49:23 asciilifeform: which is it

01:50:07 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I told you? You can consider the link totally insecure and still use it....?

01:50:26 asciilifeform: radio carries bits from nearby wires. do i have to draw a picture, or what ?

01:50:53 dignork: ninjashogun, you missed the point, transmission creates side-channel leak

01:50:59 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the way a tunnelled layer works, is it's OK to give a copy of every bit to an Evesdropper, they still can't make out the plain text.

01:51:17 asciilifeform: not merely the wires connected to the radio, carrying payload. nearby.

01:51:24 ninjashogun: dignork - are you saying that hte presence of WIFI will leak the CPU state?

01:51:26 asciilifeform: am i speaking chinese? what part of this isn't clear

01:51:40 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, are you saying that the presence of WIFI will leak the CPU?

01:51:45 asciilifeform: yes.

01:52:05 mircea_popescu: http://31.media.tumblr.com/e6dc76047ffec4f107c5d9e99de80c14/tumblr_ml1px0eVbl1sn68hmo1_1280.jpg

01:52:06 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the paper that proved that also suggested mitigation strategies...

01:52:41 asciilifeform: there is a very simple mitigation strategy. you don't need to burgle ft. meade to learn it.

01:52:51 asciilifeform: it's the one we use.

01:53:38 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, OK. If you think it is impossible to prevent WIFI from broadcasting the full contents of the CPU and RAM then you would have to design around it to make my suggestion possible, which may be too difficult.

01:55:01 bitcoinpete: mircea_popescu cool. just submitted it to smokinggun. what's hn?

01:55:08 ninjashogun: hn is hackernews normally

01:55:13 mircea_popescu: hos network

01:55:17 ninjashogun: oops

01:55:18 mircea_popescu: or hacker news

01:55:21 BingoBoingo: bitcoinpete: sumbit it to /.

01:55:22 mircea_popescu: one or the other

01:55:55 bitcoinpete: noted :)

01:55:56 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo: I hate to be the one to break it to you. I thought you heard. /. had a stroke and is in a nurinsg home :(

01:56:03 ninjashogun: nursing

01:56:15 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: your homework is to prove, given K bit rsa key with factors P,Q, there exists N, where N is number of bits you need to learn to factor into P,Q in polynomial time.

01:56:23 mircea_popescu: for some reason he has a hardon for slashdot

01:56:59 BingoBoingo: I'm old

01:57:01 diametric: mircea_popescu: that picture is fantastic, i was literally just having a conversation about redheads with someone moments ago.

01:57:56 BingoBoingo: https://www.mtgox.com/

01:57:56 ozbot: MtGox.com

01:57:59 BingoBoingo: lol

01:58:24 asciilifeform: ninjashogun: your second homework is to play ussr national anthem using a pc, c or cpp program, and a shortwave radio.

01:58:42 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I've done that :)

01:58:43 *: asciilifeform wanders off to play with pet redhead

01:58:48 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.60989987 BTC [+]

01:59:30 diametric: Login to see how many imaginary coins you had

01:59:55 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I get your point but obviously if you can learn a single bit of a key, you can learn them all. Not one bit should be leaked, ever.

02:00:06 mircea_popescu: diametric i love it too hehe

02:00:23 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, anything that leaked one bit, could be repeated until you have them all. It only works if you can't learn any of them, except by brute-forcing all of them together.

02:02:07 mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-celebrated-ceos-conspired-to-drive-down-100000-tech-engineers-wages/

02:02:07 ozbot: The Techtopus: How Silicon Valley’s most celebrated CEOs conspired to drive down 100,000 tech engi

02:02:15 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, further, as a practical matter you are not being asked to transmit a real key. You are just transmitting a stupid session key that is used to sign a single document. And if that session key is used in javascript, which is VERY far from the metal (it's a VM, running in interpreter, JS running in a C++ program, firefox, running on Windows) you would have to have insnae precision on learning exact CPU state.

02:02:16 mircea_popescu: lmao this reminds me of the original tucker max wage fixing story.

02:02:39 ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I don't even mena to "sign" a single document. Just to transmit it. And receive back hte signed version.

02:03:27 ninjashogun: personally anyone who could bruteforce all that, while breaking wireless encyrption and your whole network stack, can see the damn document as far as I'm concerned. and they still wouldn't have my private key.

02:04:34 BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Maybe you are the wrong audience as you aren't concerned very far

02:05:55 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0038 = 0.19 BTC [+]

02:06:32 dignork: ninjashogun, as simple as possible, wifi transmitter on key-storage device will leak cpu state of key-handling process, game over.

02:07:13 ninjashogun: dignork - but above and beyond what the computer leaks anyway by itself?

02:07:27 ninjashogun: dignork - because all computers obviously already leak some information through faint EM

02:07:54 dignork: ninjashogun, so you keep your key off your computer, to avoid exactly that

02:08:47 ninjashogun: dignork - if what you are saying is true than there should be a huge market for a USB wifi stick that is just 8 feet of shielded USB cable with a power conditioner on either end, so that your wifi transmission happens the fuck away from your CPU.

02:09:02 ninjashogun: nobody is this paranoid :)

02:10:03 dignork: ninjashogun, that's because a) people store useless trash on their systems and don't care/ b) they calculate the risks and live with it

02:10:32 dignork: ninjashogun, c) they're idiots

02:10:33 ninjashogun: or c) this is tinfoil hat nonsense :) :)

02:10:36 ninjashogun: ooops

02:10:37 ninjashogun: lol

02:10:50 mircea_popescu: you're in a very poor position to evaluate any of these contingencies.

02:10:56 ninjashogun: maybe

02:11:07 ninjashogun: I tend to go from first principles.

02:11:23 mircea_popescu: lol k

02:11:26 ninjashogun: I guess I could radically underestimate how much CPU state a wifi transmission can carry away.

02:11:36 ninjashogun: and what distance

02:12:09 ninjashogun: it's just that a CPU does so much, you know? it's 2 or 4 cores at 4 ghz with megabytes of just CPU cache and then hundreds of megabytes of active ram and programs

02:12:10 mircea_popescu: no, you could radically overestimate how much you understand of what's being discussed.

02:12:45 ninjashogun: maybe

02:13:00 ninjashogun: I'm trying to invest in some 2.4 ghz wireless equipment (spectrum analyzer among other things) and would be the first time I use one.

02:13:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5200 @ 0.00015 = 0.78 BTC [-] {3}

02:13:16 ninjashogun: I'm currently developing a wireless version of my prototype, and it is true that I am still learning it.

02:13:33 bitcoinpete: Haven't used HN before, but here's my shot at it.

02:13:34 bitcoinpete: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419574

02:13:43 dignork: ninjashogun, let's say it's a complicated attack, and it costs 1M$, which you don't have, then you can safely assume you shouldn't care :)

02:14:03 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1675 @ 0.00015 = 0.2513 BTC [-] {3}

02:14:46 ninjashogun: ok

02:15:05 ninjashogun: anyway I'd think there's a market for in-between, people (like me) who don't care that much, but would rather not keep a key on a PC

02:15:20 mircea_popescu: silent circle ?

02:15:21 ninjashogun: or tablet

02:16:24 dignork: ninjashogun, but 1M$ is overestimation, if it costs 10K$, should you care?

02:17:50 Duffer1: ninja but why would i buy yours over the cardano?

02:17:57 ThickAsThieves: <bitcoinpete> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419574 /// nothing much loads

02:18:35 ninjashogun: Duffer1 - it' snot 'mine'. It's a feature suggestion for the cardano v2 or v3. it's still the cardano. 95% would be the same, including the basic invention that they described.

02:18:54 Duffer1: oh i see

02:19:26 ThickAsThieves: i cant believe you guys are still so weak to trolling

02:19:52 ThickAsThieves: ninjashogun ir probly furuknap or some other past annoyance

02:19:54 ThickAsThieves: is*

02:20:11 mircea_popescu: we're old people.

02:20:16 BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Prolly Thermos

02:20:29 mircea_popescu: old people buy spamvertised dietary supplements and so on

02:20:33 ninjashogun: I've introduced myself...?

02:20:44 ninjashogun: I'm Robert, as I mentioned. I hadn't talked to you guys before.

02:21:02 ninjashogun: I stopped coming here and returned due to ughlol mentioning it. I think you guys are mostly trolling in here (which is fine).

02:21:34 mircea_popescu: you're confused.

02:22:09 bitcoinpete: ThickAsThieves good call. deleted that one and did a text one instead: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419618

02:22:22 ninjashogun: When I had been coming in here it was following an experience over a similar channel (related to doge) on a loan. As someone here (asciilifeform?) explained, I should have 'no problem' getting a loan of $20K. In fact I did have "no problem" on it, but in the end I couldn't collect it, and had come in here over a few days to see if anyone were interested in the same.

02:22:25 Duffer1: ah, i have indeed heard of people drowning fighting their rescuers

02:22:43 ThickAsThieves: thats broke too pete

02:22:44 ninjashogun: on it->with it

02:23:10 mircea_popescu: ninjashogun anyway, you talk too much.

02:23:16 ninjashogun: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419618 is showing as dead for me, bitcoinpete

02:23:18 mircea_popescu: ideally you want a 1k to 1 read:written lines

02:23:20 ThickAsThieves: ughlol and shogun made it easy to be dismissed, they started every conversation with their hands out

02:23:31 blackwhite: evening gents

02:23:33 mircea_popescu: so now stfu for a few months and spend hours reading the logs.

02:23:38 ThickAsThieves: even after being given links to educate themselves

02:24:00 ninjashogun: ThickAsThieves, I read your links. I didn't start any more conversations though.

02:24:20 ThickAsThieves: even after being made an example

02:24:41 mircea_popescu: mebbe by autumn i feel like clearing my ignore list again or something.

02:25:35 thestringpuller: ;;seen nubbins`

02:25:35 gribble: nubbins` was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 hours, 10 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <nubbins`> most people don't get that far

02:26:03 ThickAsThieves: ;;seen pankkake

02:26:03 gribble: pankkake was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 10 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <pankkake> reminder http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/12/android_bug_batters_bitcoin_wallets/

02:27:15 ThickAsThieves: musta got rich on ATC and quit the game...

02:27:42 mod6: ^^^

02:28:10 mircea_popescu: he's now atc rich

02:28:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.052 = 0.26 BTC [+]

02:28:33 BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Maybe he's eyebrow deep in pussy http://headfucking.net/headfucking.mpg

02:29:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.0521 = 0.1563 BTC [+]

02:29:54 cazalla: BingoBongo: looks like heisenberg

02:30:04 Duffer1: oh lawd

02:30:50 BingoBoingo: cazalla: It is from his site

02:31:15 mircea_popescu: "Two U.S. Air Force commanders in the 422nd Air Base Group at RAF Croughton have been relieved over a loss of confidence in their abilities."

02:31:19 mircea_popescu: one wonders what that'd be.

02:32:04 ThickAsThieves: they were better at receiving head than giving it

02:33:06 mircea_popescu: may have something to do with all the drones the us lost in the ukraine.

02:33:11 ThickAsThieves: do you think a scientist stating evolution is a fact is arrogant?

02:33:23 mircea_popescu: turns out they are kinda useless in actual military operations.

02:38:12 ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, that is hilarious

02:38:21 ninjashogun: see you guys later. I'm going off to bed.

02:38:27 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.0038 = 0.38 BTC [+]

02:38:45 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: The problem with drones is it is way to tempting to stick them in places where they don't belong.

02:39:18 mircea_popescu: i guess people in the us are so starstruck with "technology" they forget they're just little radio planes.

02:39:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.6098974 = 1.2198 BTC [-] {2}

02:41:54 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they can sack them, they can shoot them, a kid with $100 of kit can still take the next toy plane home.

02:42:18 mircea_popescu: kinda the problem, yes.

02:42:28 asciilifeform: i haven't the link, unfortunately, but the story goes:

02:42:37 mircea_popescu: the sackings will continue until the dollar improves

02:42:40 asciilifeform: that these buggers were originally supposed to use the rsa-signed gps

02:42:43 mircea_popescu: btw, what happened ot your sleep

02:42:47 asciilifeform: what sleep.

02:43:01 mircea_popescu: it's like sex but without moving.

02:43:12 asciilifeform: the $ that was supposed to buy the golden toilets (signed gps rx-ers) walked away.

02:43:23 asciilifeform: then they fitted consumer gps rx.

02:43:32 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 28 @ 0.05265349 = 1.4743 BTC [+] {4}

02:43:49 mircea_popescu: yeah.

02:44:18 asciilifeform: and, until recently, 'predator' video backhaul was... plaintext.

02:44:21 dignork: asciilifeform, do you mean the story with fake gps transmitters, which diverted drone?

02:44:22 asciilifeform: for a similar reason.

02:44:30 asciilifeform: dignork: it.

02:44:42 asciilifeform: there are now several such stories.

02:44:49 asciilifeform: probably more than i personally know of.

02:45:12 mircea_popescu: the word around the backchannels is that the usaf gets back about 2/3 of the drones it sends out

02:45:27 asciilifeform: (i'm not a model plane driver for a living, i only know the ones that every idiot knows now.)

02:45:29 mircea_popescu: and if this keeps up for another 3-4 years the rest of the world will own more drones than the usg.

02:46:19 dignork: asciilifeform, i loled about this story with my friend who builds them for non-US army, and she said that it won't work with their drones, cz they'll fallback into gps-less mode, once there will be delta between compass/altimeter and gps readings

02:47:19 asciilifeform: in the '80s, there was quite a bit of $ spent on navigation using optical terrain tracking.

02:47:27 asciilifeform: no idea if this survived herr reagan or not.

02:47:41 asciilifeform: judging by the use of 'gps' in 'predator', my guess is 'not.'

02:48:01 mircea_popescu: yeah contour nav is still used.

02:48:22 mircea_popescu: but on large icmb type of things. tehy've not really fittedf it to the 10lb shits yet

02:48:36 dignork: asciilifeform, US considers shutting off gps in some cases, so pbbly their drones can work gps-less too.

02:49:03 asciilifeform: dignork: this requires fitting receivers for the u.s. proprietary (crypted) gps to all hardware

02:49:13 asciilifeform: as it is, they famously lack enough even to supply infantry

02:49:20 asciilifeform: because they're $10k each.

02:49:31 asciilifeform: (why? ask the folks who make them, not me)

02:49:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 277 @ 0.00380202 = 1.0532 BTC [+] {3}

02:49:43 mircea_popescu: and they still suck.

02:49:56 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one could probably get within 1% of 'gps' by using camera and images mooched from a crawl of 'google earth'

02:50:01 asciilifeform: at least over land.

02:50:11 mircea_popescu: a lot of their spec is edge cases tho.

02:50:24 mircea_popescu: "you need to hit whether there's been a fire or not"

02:50:39 asciilifeform: you only need terrain tracking, etc. to correct for accumulated error in inertial (gyro) nav

02:50:50 mircea_popescu: many countless ways to throw camnav for a loop, including lulzy things like silly strings

02:50:56 asciilifeform: the latter can be had for $5 (it's in every ipnohe etc)

02:51:02 asciilifeform: 3-axis 'mems' gyro

02:51:09 mircea_popescu: nav-ready gyro is expensive.

02:51:46 asciilifeform: one that can be used alone ('Brandy Snifter gyro' or mechanical) is costly

02:52:01 mircea_popescu: mech is still the golden standard.

02:52:05 asciilifeform: solid-state (dollar store 3-axis chip) is adequate if you can occasionally correct.

02:52:30 mircea_popescu: i'/d suggest you try this theory out, but instead just lie down D:

02:52:40 asciilifeform: other thing

02:52:41 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 220 @ 0.00381 = 0.8382 BTC [+]

02:52:53 asciilifeform: you don't need elaborate navigation if your target helpfully shouts radio

02:52:59 asciilifeform: that you can then triangulate.

02:53:30 asciilifeform: (phased array using squadron flying in a triangle 1km on each side, say)

02:54:12 *: asciilifeform goes back to play with pet

02:54:20 dignork: asciilifeform, i tried 3-axis chip, it had a huge margin of error on a toy q-copter :(

03:03:38 mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/2014/03/17/warren-buffett-says-he-wants-to-pay-more-tax-then-structures-a-deal-to-ensure-he-does-the-exact-opposite/

03:03:39 ozbot: Warren Buffett says he wants to pay more tax (then structures a deal to ensure he does the exact opp

03:04:38 BingoBoingo: WHat's that thing you say "If you can, you must"

03:05:22 mircea_popescu: something like that.

03:05:29 mircea_popescu: decent write-up on the topic tho

03:05:47 mircea_popescu: this pando stuff is like a breath of fresh air, it almost reads like press from before digital ruined it all.

03:13:35 mircea_popescu: "OP, I know cryptostocks makes it seem as though starting your very own security is a sort of past time accessible to anyone who'd like to try, sort of like adopting a pet fish. This has nothing to do with bitcoin securities in fact and everything to do with play-pretend exchanges exploiting those who'd like to try but aren't ready for one reason or another."

03:13:38 mircea_popescu: i gotta hire this woman.

03:14:32 Duffer1: is she not already on payroll?

03:14:47 mircea_popescu: o hey.

03:14:51 mircea_popescu: time machine ftw.

03:15:04 Duffer1: oh ^.^

03:15:22 mircea_popescu: lol

03:16:04 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894978 = 0.1379 BTC [-]

03:17:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00382 = 0.382 BTC [+]

03:23:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46814 @ 0.00089084 = 41.7038 BTC [+] {2}

03:30:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894986 = 0.1379 BTC [+]

03:33:21 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.0059705 = 0.2985 BTC [-] {3}

03:42:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30497 @ 0.00089043 = 27.1554 BTC [-]

03:43:21 benderp: so i dunno what happened but i pooped out a 3kword monster

03:43:47 benderp: it's kinda rough as these airplane pieces can be

03:44:00 benderp: uhh wide ranging too

03:44:00 benderp: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/03/17_the-sec-doth-breach-itself-upon-the-rocks-of-mpex-and-popescu-himself.html

03:44:01 ozbot: The SEC doth breach itself upon the rocks of MPEx, and Popescu himself

03:45:33 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 87 @ 0.003849 = 0.3349 BTC [+]

03:48:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 173 @ 0.00385 = 0.6661 BTC [+]

03:52:00 mircea_popescu: how was your flight

03:52:49 mircea_popescu: meanwhile back at the ranch, bitbet invented a whole new kind of hell.

03:52:50 mircea_popescu: http://bitbet.us/bet/786/bitcoin-to-surpass-berkshire-as-an-investment/#b94

03:52:51 ozbot: BitBet - Bitcoin to surpass Berkshire as an investment

03:53:14 mircea_popescu: and bc.info is still down.

03:59:39 bitcoinpete: benderp: fantastic article. quite enjoyed "engaging in nefarious activity to palp the testicular fortitude of the people who matter and actually set policy in Bitcoin"

04:01:36 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell benkay "the secret discovery of these techniques was for the Tyrant merely a happy accident" << it was in fact. rsa was invented by some brit guy, kept under lock and key unused for 4 decades.

04:01:36 gribble: The operation succeeded.

04:02:19 bitcoinpete: mircea_popescu: guesses on what's up at bc?

04:02:40 mircea_popescu: they probably lost a hard drive, didn't have a proper array and can't restart till they fsck

04:03:28 Duffer1: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/178529-this-is-what-the-death-of-moores-law-looks-like-euv-paused-indefinitely-450mm-wafers-halted-and-no-path-beyond-14nm

04:03:28 ozbot: This is what the death of Moore’s law looks like: EUV rollout slowed, 450mm wafers halted, and an

04:03:29 mircea_popescu: random guess. their pr is mtgox-level atrocious, which is kinda sad after all these fraudsters articles on the topic

04:04:14 LordPutin: thisisagood read atm even goatgetsmentioned - http://www.scribd.com/doc/210845161/SEC-vs-pirateat40-1

04:04:24 bitcoinpete: indeed

04:04:34 mircea_popescu: Duffer1 this is kinda endemic, each nm size had it

04:04:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/

04:04:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: considerably more interesting

04:04:51 bitcoinpete: i'm off for the eve, cheers

04:04:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00088815 = 7.9934 BTC [-]

04:04:54 mircea_popescu: i linked that earlier! not so bad read

04:05:08 asciilifeform: if i recall you had the 'wrong' piece

04:05:11 asciilifeform: vs. 'wrong-er'

04:05:12 mircea_popescu: o i did ?

04:05:15 mircea_popescu: oh i c

04:05:23 mircea_popescu: skimming ftw.

04:06:44 LordPutin: ahh ok

04:06:54 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 462 @ 0.00385 = 1.7787 BTC [+]

04:07:42 asciilifeform: this is my very first encounter with an english-speaking anybody who read Limonov.

04:08:27 asciilifeform: 'Limonov and his friends consider themselves Russians, because to them, Ukrainian is a ?village tongue,? a peasant language, and its most vivid expressions are of the endless hatred that filled every one of the many tribes on the grasslands, like this one: ?Into Muscovite, Polack, and Jew/Take your knife and stick it through.?'

04:08:37 LordPutin: despoisiton is pretty fun to read

04:10:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what's your take on the holodomor ?

04:11:59 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 57 @ 0.003872 = 0.2207 BTC [+]

04:12:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: j. c. scott's 'art of not being governed' (which is entirely about asia, incidentally, and mentions this not at all) is the best guide;

04:12:54 asciilifeform: what should fuhrer do when his kingdom breaks into cities (starving) and countryside, which needs nothing from the cities

04:13:06 asciilifeform: in light of an urgent need to industrialize and resist conquest

04:13:53 mircea_popescu: i can readily see how something like that would create plenty of national identity.

04:14:01 mircea_popescu: "we are the people you tried to kill, and we will bury you"

04:14:18 asciilifeform: that's russia in 1 sentence.

04:14:29 asciilifeform: since 14th c. or so.

04:14:50 mircea_popescu: anyway, good point in pando article, re the "party line". it suffers from spina bifida, and will crumble into dust

04:14:56 asciilifeform: granted, being on receiving end isn't terribly fun.

04:15:12 mircea_popescu: (one of the best predictors of who will be defeated in any conflict is see whose messages don't manage to coallesce, displaying instead dualities)

04:15:55 asciilifeform: related: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-madness-of-president-putin.html

04:16:06 chetty: Is there a bitbet yet on when it formally becomes war?

04:16:25 asciilifeform: 'Western meds aren't working any more?on itself or anyone else.'

04:17:09 mircea_popescu: chetty i doubt anyone has the nazi esprit de corps to actually declare wars anymore.

04:17:38 asciilifeform: the 'international komoonity' doesn't war. it drive-by shoots.

04:18:35 chetty: Putin is set to respond to Obama's sanctions of Russian officials with his own list. Several U.S. Senators and officials will be banned from visiting Russia, including Sen. Dick Durbin.

04:19:25 mircea_popescu: im curious how much us t's is russia holding in offshore accounts

04:20:04 mircea_popescu: because if they do hold enough they're going to trigger a contest with the chinese as to who dumps them first

04:20:14 mircea_popescu: and that, for the first time since 2008, is actually a clear path tho the end.

04:20:26 chetty: its like school yard fights ... oh yeah, your mother wears combat boots

04:21:03 mircea_popescu: "The two versions of Russia?McCain?s ?gas station masquerading as a country? and Lake?s fearsome conqueror?both start from the same bitter knowledge, even if Senator McCain and Mr. Lake will never admit that fact in public. It?s a simple one: Russia will take Crimea, won?t pay a big price for it, and there?s not a thing anyone can do about it."

04:21:08 mircea_popescu: myeah.

04:23:18 asciilifeform: 'Russia promised to respond ?symmetrically.? In its arsenal is: popping the huge financial bubble and causing a resumption of the financial collapse of 2008 by any number of means, from requiring gold instead of fiat currency as payment for oil and gas, to dumping US dollar reserves (in concert with China), to putting the EU on a fast track to economic collapse by giving the natural gas valve a slight clock

04:23:18 asciilifeform: wise twist...'

04:23:51 mircea_popescu: nah, they're never stoppin gthe gas. putin is much too smart for that.

04:24:08 mircea_popescu: they may add a say 30% surcharge for any us exports just for fun tho.

04:24:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: argentina! clever fellow, you are.

04:24:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'wisdom is hopping on the train a day before everybody else' (leo szilard)

04:24:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i just get my news earlier than everyone else that's all.

04:25:12 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00387264 = 0.3873 BTC [+] {2}

04:26:33 mircea_popescu: "Russia finished the final stage of the East Siberia-Pacific Ocean (ESPO) Pipeline in 2013."

04:26:43 mircea_popescu: this is actually a very good point. putin also gets his news early.

04:28:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1181 @ 0.00088407 = 1.0441 BTC [-]

04:28:15 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 300 @ 0.0038741 = 1.1622 BTC [+] {2}

04:28:26 mircea_popescu: Eto myf aahaha

04:28:44 mircea_popescu: Это миф he means.

04:31:06 benkay: ah so then i guess not really a product of the usg then, mircea_popescu

04:31:31 benkay: anyways, flight was great - *my* pet redhead is making steaks, and then we're off to the wine bar to seduce the flight attendant

04:32:10 mircea_popescu: ;;google clifford cocks

04:32:10 benkay: (i give it a 1/10 - fukken blasted from a weekend with family; barely capable of satisfying the one i have)

04:32:10 gribble: Clifford Cocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Cocks; Q&A: The encryption pioneer who was written out of history ... - PC Pro: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/security/361669/q-a-the-encryption-pioneer-who-was-written-out-of-history; Wired 7.04: The Open Secret: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.04/crypto_pr.html

04:32:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31400 @ 0.00088766 = 27.8725 BTC [+] {3}

04:32:41 mircea_popescu: the disadvantage of being a loyal servant of a small yet arrogant country.

04:35:22 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.003874 = 0.7748 BTC [-]

04:36:03 benkay: oh also saint paddy's day so doucheparade is out

04:36:09 benkay: no flight attendants for meee :(

04:43:07 mircea_popescu: benkay ironically, i would say the average paid per webpage today far exceeds the height of the dot com bubble.

04:43:09 benkay: ;;later tell bitcoinpete nice to see someone reading closely.

04:43:09 gribble: The operation succeeded.

04:43:16 mircea_popescu: what did the obamacare webjournal cost again ?

04:43:19 benkay: whaaaat really?

04:43:29 mircea_popescu: just think. now the govt is buying.

04:43:30 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 7 @ 0.60988391 = 4.2692 BTC [-] {3}

04:43:33 benkay: we do shit for 50-100k that woulda run in the millions a decade ago.

04:43:52 mircea_popescu: but most of the shit we do today costs 5mn, and would have cost 500 to make 15 years ago.

04:43:57 benkay: ;;later tell bitcoinpete let me know when you find the joke about mircea_popescu's cock

04:43:58 gribble: The operation succeeded.

04:44:23 mircea_popescu: take the pando chick (who apparently is actually the tard that did that horror interview with zuckerberg) :

04:44:24 benkay: what sorts of things are you talking about now?

04:44:36 mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/about/

04:44:37 ozbot: Why I Started PandoDaily | PandoDaily

04:44:58 mircea_popescu: I?ve paid a WordPress designer named Sara Cannon $8,000 to build this site.

04:45:55 benkay: i'm thinking more along the lines of 2fa implementations

04:46:13 benkay: which coulda been did for nothing with gpg

04:46:34 mircea_popescu: 8k for a wp "design". you hear me ?

04:46:47 mircea_popescu: and this is a start-up, by some journo chick which supposedly knows what time it is.

04:47:16 chetty: well given the million for the Ocare site, sounds cheap :P

04:47:26 chetty: millions*

04:47:45 mircea_popescu: if you average it all out... it costs more today than it did in 2002.

04:48:03 benkay: the design stuff?

04:48:30 mircea_popescu: per site

04:48:31 benkay: implying it could be had for less and that honey was ripped off?

04:48:33 mircea_popescu: as a business concept.

04:48:41 chetty: and somehow they all look the same ..

04:48:47 mircea_popescu: also, you ever heard the word panopticon before ?

04:49:11 chetty: its where we live, the perfect prison

04:49:47 benkay: i have!

04:50:10 benkay: (i was briefly educated by people)

04:50:38 mircea_popescu: aok

04:51:46 benkay: can't say as much stuck, and i missed out on the apparently crucial canings...

04:51:55 benkay: but yeah panopticon is the thing lurking in that post

04:52:43 benkay: http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-myth-of-the-non-technical-startup-employee

04:52:43 ozbot: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee, by Zoelle Egner | Model View Culture

04:53:14 benkay: i always figured the ops people were interchangeable by virtue of their labor being by and large totally fungible

04:53:50 benkay: the ones whose labor wasn't, weren't. granted those are "controllers" and what have you, not "office managers" or "directors of employee happiness".

04:54:26 mircea_popescu: a good office manager can be worth a lot

04:54:30 mircea_popescu: it really all depends

04:55:14 benkay: hm yeah

04:55:52 benkay: trying to figure out the knobs on the "how to get coffee made for me and a whole bunch of other shit done too for not a terrific amount of money"

04:56:37 mircea_popescu: they're not borrowing at 0

04:56:41 mircea_popescu: they're borrowing at 0.25

04:56:54 benkay: a ty

04:57:02 benkay: pretty close, tho

04:57:47 mircea_popescu: mhm.

04:58:22 benkay: baaaasically zero compared to the btc rate

04:58:24 benkay: which, hey

04:58:40 benkay: what is the borrowing rate these days?

04:58:48 mircea_popescu: For one, nobody knows how many dollars exist in the world, and furthermore one can never trust the government to not simply double the number of dollars in circulation, thereby halving the value of your savings (provided you were stupid enough to actually keep them in cash).

04:58:52 mircea_popescu: that's only half the story.

04:59:12 mircea_popescu: "thereby halving the value of cash savings, and piling a ton of taxeable "capital gains" on your non cash savings"

04:59:25 benkay: oh ho

04:59:25 mircea_popescu: if i own a sheep worth 10 dollars today, and the fed prints another 20 trillion dollars

04:59:34 benkay: oh god

04:59:44 mircea_popescu: i will have then owned a sheep worth 10 dollars + 10 mnore dolars in unrealised gains.

05:00:34 benkay: oh i get it

05:00:58 mircea_popescu: and that second part is really the big part.

05:04:50 cazalla: i thought pando was backed by that techcrunch guy

05:04:58 benkay: arrington?

05:05:09 cazalla: yeah

05:05:19 mircea_popescu: nah, just some chick he maybe shagged

05:05:32 benkay: his name's on the investors list is it not?

05:05:39 mircea_popescu: (under his aol contract he can't possibly start a pando)

05:05:42 mircea_popescu: sure,

05:05:46 mircea_popescu: read through the lines here.

05:05:47 cazalla: stumping up 8k for the design might be a cover for that

05:11:02 mircea_popescu: benkay http://fraudsters.com/2014/georg-ritter-von-flondor-and-what-his-unhappy-life-can-teach-us/

05:11:18 mircea_popescu: this being written as a sort of pulp fiction-esque prequel of today's lineup.

05:11:41 mircea_popescu: that and of course, http://fraudsters.com/2014/the-letter-third/ too.

05:13:03 benkay: i'm sorry, i do not understand.

05:14:02 mircea_popescu: i ain't spoiling it for you.

05:22:08 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 903 @ 0.00049 = 0.4425 BTC [-] {2}

05:25:58 benkay: there's more in the queue for today?

05:30:32 mircea_popescu: a, no.

05:30:37 mircea_popescu: im off to bed.

05:33:19 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 66 @ 0.003874 = 0.2557 BTC [-]

05:34:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20180 @ 0.00088151 = 17.7889 BTC [-] {2}

05:35:21 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1000 @ 0.00379396 = 3.794 BTC [-] {9}

05:38:24 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 1000 @ 0.00051296 = 0.513 BTC [+] {4}

05:39:47 dexX7: ;;seen VanCleef

05:39:47 gribble: VanCleef was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 days, 13 hours, 10 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <VanCleef> hehe tat

05:43:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 236 @ 0.00044055 = 0.104 BTC [-] {12}

05:44:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 767 @ 0.00040712 = 0.3123 BTC [-] {19}

05:45:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 33 @ 0.00387399 = 0.1278 BTC [-]

05:59:45 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 45 @ 0.00374 = 0.1683 BTC [-] {2}

06:00:46 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 41 @ 0.0037 = 0.1517 BTC [-] {3}

06:43:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 2564 @ 0.00389647 = 9.9905 BTC [+] {14}

06:53:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 48 @ 0.00389999 = 0.1872 BTC [+]

06:55:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 142 @ 0.00389999 = 0.5538 BTC [+] {3}

07:24:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9200 @ 0.00080303 = 7.3879 BTC [-]

07:32:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 2500 @ 0.00399343 = 9.9836 BTC [+] {7}

07:55:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.6098979 = 2.4396 BTC [+]

07:56:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.61 BTC [+]

08:11:28 KRS-1: http://imgur.com/gallery/fMoj3jD

08:11:29 ozbot: I met a certain Senator Al Franken this weekend and my friend saw an opportun

08:14:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12400 @ 0.00080303 = 9.9576 BTC [-]

08:15:59 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.61399 BTC [+]

08:20:46 LordPutin: is this asicminer news good or meh?

08:21:52 BingoBoingo: What news?

08:22:24 LordPutin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=438359.msg5759952#msg5759952

08:22:26 ozbot: [ANN]ASICMiner Publicly Looking for Potential Customers/Partners for New Chips

08:24:07 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.61399 BTC [+]

08:25:56 jurov: 0.00213451

08:26:03 jurov: 0.00213451

08:26:13 jurov: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/bitcoin-bitstamp-pantera-idUSL3N0ME26A20140318?feedType=RSS&feedName=usDollarRpt

08:26:14 ozbot: CORRECTED-Fortress-linked Pantera invested $10 mln in Bitstamp - Bloomberg

08:27:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25400 @ 0.00079863 = 20.2852 BTC [-]

08:27:11 jurov: so it's the same company as made XRP?

08:31:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10150 @ 0.00079863 = 8.1061 BTC [-]

08:34:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 475 @ 0.00395 = 1.8763 BTC [-]

08:36:19 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 420 @ 0.00213452 = 0.8965 BTC [+]

08:39:22 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 3000 @ 0.00399745 = 11.9924 BTC [+] {4}

08:41:24 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1000 @ 0.00405911 = 4.0591 BTC [+] {10}

08:42:25 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 745 @ 0.00408876 = 3.0461 BTC [+] {6}

08:43:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 180 @ 0.00408899 = 0.736 BTC [+] {4}

08:44:27 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 26 @ 0.004089 = 0.1063 BTC [+] {3}

08:45:14 LordPutin: lol why are people buying neobee? danny is in a coma

08:50:20 dexX7: jurov: i don't think so, but i'm surprised, too. http://www.coindesk.com/bitstamp-got-10m-fortress-linked-hedge-fund-last-year-bloomberg/ this is a more detailed article, but still doesn't mention ripple's role. guess they also received a slice of the cake.

08:54:58 dexX7: LordPutin: strange, fc's post disappeared

08:55:44 dexX7: nice leak hehehe

08:56:07 LordPutin: yeah it is gone :/

08:56:39 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.61514333 = 3.6909 BTC [+] {3}

08:57:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 4312 @ 0.004089 = 17.6318 BTC [+]

08:57:41 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.6199 BTC [+]

08:59:26 dexX7: mirror: https://www.dropbox.com/s/o87zbble4z5fkhq/AM%20BE200%20Datasheet%20-%20Google%20Drive.pdf

09:01:44 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00408999 = 0.409 BTC [+]

09:02:45 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 488 @ 0.004089 = 1.9954 BTC [-]

09:02:57 LordPutin: still dont know if its this is good news or meh

09:06:48 dexX7: this is good news =D

09:17:55 Duffer1: avalon gen3 chip launch and active mining big announcement scheduled for same day.....

09:21:39 LordPutin: active mining is still relevant?

09:22:08 dexX7: i didn't know that. did avalon already publish the spec?

09:22:57 Duffer1: actm is a never ending labcoin

09:23:38 dexX7: ^ agreed

09:24:04 dexX7: but i didn't follow. i think auto said "it's legit".. but i have my doubts

09:24:06 Duffer1: http://avalon-asics.com/

09:24:06 ozbot: Avalon ASIC - Leading Bitcoin Auditing Equipment

09:24:24 Duffer1: actm? i sincerely doubt it's legit

09:25:03 dexX7: someone visited ken or so

09:25:19 Duffer1: i know several labcoin victims are also actm bagholders, i hope for their sake i'm wrong

09:25:39 dexX7: yea, same here

09:27:52 auto2nr1: hey

09:27:55 auto2nr1: whats going on guys

09:28:09 LordPutin: how come labcoin got away with it?

09:28:15 auto2nr1: damn labcoin

09:28:54 Duffer1: they haven't LP

09:33:48 auto2nr1: hey duffer1

09:33:50 auto2nr1: you still up?

09:34:04 Duffer1: yea i'm still not sleeping well

09:34:34 dexX7: you're from the us, right?

09:34:46 Duffer1: ya west coasxt

09:39:12 LordPutin: what do you mean they haven't? Are they facing legalaction?

09:39:52 Duffer1: there are people working on it, but no arrests made afaik

09:40:00 Duffer1: yet

09:40:07 LordPutin: ahh ok

09:41:25 dexX7: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325431.0;all

09:41:28 ozbot: labcoin lawsuit

09:41:52 LordPutin: thanks

09:42:03 LordPutin: i hope they get bent over

09:42:32 dexX7: haha yea, we all do

09:54:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 26 @ 0.00408997 = 0.1063 BTC [+]

09:57:39 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 110 @ 0.00590853 = 0.6499 BTC [-] {6}

10:07:49 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 80 @ 0.00408997 = 0.3272 BTC [+]

10:08:50 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1754 @ 0.00409269 = 7.1786 BTC [+] {5}

10:19:00 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 5 @ 0.066001 = 0.33 BTC [+]

10:19:01 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.619945 = 3.7197 BTC [+] {3}

10:26:07 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06500004 = 0.13 BTC [-]

10:34:15 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SMG] 1316 @ 0.00008385 = 0.1103 BTC [+] {7}

10:35:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 240 @ 0.00417446 = 1.0019 BTC [+]

10:42:23 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 17 @ 0.00590004 = 0.1003 BTC [-] {3}

10:45:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 25 @ 0.00417446 = 0.1044 BTC [+]

10:48:30 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 300 @ 0.00417446 = 1.2523 BTC [+]

10:59:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 30 @ 0.00417446 = 0.1252 BTC [+]

11:11:52 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 119 @ 0.00417446 = 0.4968 BTC [+]

11:18:59 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 36 @ 0.62196995 = 22.3909 BTC [+] {8}

11:20:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3152 @ 0.00079699 = 2.5121 BTC [-]

11:21:01 blackwhite: Kids make coins by exercising. The energy they create gets used to mining.

11:38:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 19 @ 0.053 = 1.007 BTC [-]

12:00:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3470 @ 0.00079863 = 2.7712 BTC [+]

12:02:07 mircea_popescu: ;;tslb

12:02:10 gribble: Time since last block: 1 minute and 44 seconds

12:04:12 LordPutin: does mpex have a internship program?

12:04:44 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.62998999 = 3.7799 BTC [+] {2}

12:04:49 mircea_popescu: yes.

12:04:56 mircea_popescu: o wow look at that, bcinfo still down

12:05:10 LordPutin: oh cool, where does one apply?

12:06:20 mircea_popescu: here.

12:06:40 LordPutin: oh ok, i'm nervous

12:09:59 Mats_cd03: i hope you have a tie on

12:10:27 Mats_cd03: i hear mircea_popescu is a fashionista

12:11:33 mircea_popescu: definitely.

12:14:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36350 @ 0.00080226 = 29.1622 BTC [+]

12:15:11 ughlol: Mats_cd03: yeah, look at his twitter background, for example!

12:17:53 LordPutin: i like versace

12:18:07 LordPutin: they have a good quality

12:21:00 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1871 @ 0.00015996 = 0.2993 BTC [+] {4}

12:37:04 ThickAsThieves: ;;estimate

12:37:05 gribble: Next difficulty estimate | 4687115861.98 based on data since last change | 4794469217.54 based on data for last three days

12:37:12 ThickAsThieves: ;;bcstats

12:37:16 gribble: Current Blocks: 291165 | Current Difficulty: 4250217919.8695 | Next Difficulty At Block: 292319 | Next Difficulty In: 1154 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 29 minutes, and 50 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 4687115861.98 | Estimated Percent Change: 10.27942

12:40:14 mircea_popescu: holy shit 10%

12:40:36 Apocalyptic: did you expect any less ?

12:41:23 ThickAsThieves: itll be more like 17-22% by the time it changes

12:42:04 mircea_popescu: was a bet about 10% neh ?

12:42:33 ThickAsThieves: that thered be one less than 10

12:42:35 mircea_popescu: http://bitbet.us/bet/596/btc-difficulty-to-increase-by-less-than-10/

12:42:36 ozbot: BitBet - BTC difficulty to increase by less than 10%

12:42:39 mircea_popescu: yeah.

12:42:58 mircea_popescu: i was rooting for it :p

12:43:39 ThickAsThieves: I suspect AM's gen3 chips will hit the scene in a week or 3

12:44:23 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06500003 = 0.26 BTC [-] {2}

12:48:47 dexX7: do you still have board member rights?

12:48:53 dexX7: well, don't answer.

12:48:56 dexX7: but i agree

12:49:08 ThickAsThieves: I do not

12:49:20 ThickAsThieves: I own no AM shares

12:49:27 ThickAsThieves: dun dun dun

12:50:05 dexX7: yep, the ownership was changed

12:50:56 ThickAsThieves: I consider it to be grossly overvalued

12:51:12 dexX7: friedcat leaked (?!) the specs of the chip earlier

12:51:19 ThickAsThieves: who knows

12:52:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 35 @ 0.004002 = 0.1401 BTC [-]

12:53:08 ThickAsThieves: currently AM is valued at 252,000BTC, or $151,200,000

12:53:45 dexX7: what was mpex' market cap again?

12:54:06 ThickAsThieves: higher

12:54:40 ThickAsThieves: 1b shares

12:54:55 ThickAsThieves: 802260BTC

12:55:05 BingoBoingo: ;;calc 0.00080226 * 1000000000

12:55:05 gribble: 802260

12:55:08 ThickAsThieves: $481,356,000

12:55:28 dexX7: ah

12:55:51 ThickAsThieves: I think AM is at least more obviously overpriced

12:56:25 ThickAsThieves: the hardest part of both is valuing the intangibles

12:57:14 ThickAsThieves: how long will Friedcat persist? how much of an advantage does he really have? will he achieve dominance in the market?

12:57:33 LordPutin: tat how come you left am?

12:57:46 ThickAsThieves: Many reasons

12:58:03 ThickAsThieves: mostly related to representing them via a passthrough

12:58:08 ThickAsThieves: and how I no longer wanted to

12:58:43 LordPutin: ahh ok, thanks

12:58:55 LordPutin: yeah way over valued

12:59:19 ThickAsThieves: whereas with MPEx, while it is no claim to MP's personal wealth

12:59:21 ThickAsThieves: ,

12:59:33 ThickAsThieves: it does have access to his influence

12:59:47 ThickAsThieves: what is Apple without Jobs?

12:59:55 ThickAsThieves: etc

13:00:22 ThickAsThieves: while it has* no claim

13:02:59 only: please excuse my ignorance, but who runs havelock?

13:03:15 LordPutin: yeah true apple is truely lost without jobs

13:03:17 ThickAsThieves: The Panama Fund

13:03:24 ThickAsThieves: truly*

13:03:29 only: yes, but who is behind it?

13:03:40 BingoBoingo: Who knows?

13:03:42 ThickAsThieves: they have a phone number

13:03:47 ThickAsThieves: call them and ask

13:04:37 BingoBoingo: Why did Dr. Banner become the Hulk, yet Dr. Slotin the closest thing the Hulk has to an opposite?

13:05:57 LordPutin: i tried calling them but some guy called Dave from fbi picked up

13:06:15 ThickAsThieves: lol

13:08:37 ThickAsThieves: LTC seems to be showing signs of life again

13:08:44 ThickAsThieves: apparently the Chinese love it

13:09:22 LordPutin: yeh?

13:09:34 ThickAsThieves: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/frozen-1600-years-antarctic-moss-revived

13:09:35 ozbot: Frozen for 1,600 years, Antarctic moss revived

13:09:38 BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Convert them to ATC.

13:09:40 ThickAsThieves: It was nice knowing everyone

13:10:03 ThickAsThieves: in a few days we'll all be Creep Show moss monsters

13:11:18 ThickAsThieves: BingoBoingo, I have a feeling that nationality of the creator plays a part in their interest in LTC

13:11:24 ThickAsThieves: alas, I am not Chinese

13:11:46 ThickAsThieves: maybe I can rally the Portuguese instead?

13:11:50 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.62999 = 2.52 BTC [+]

13:11:56 BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: How do they know that? Maybe they will find it an exotic creation of the mythical "Florida Man"

13:12:12 ThickAsThieves: gawd...

13:12:20 ThickAsThieves: that's the biggest reason i hate living in florida

13:12:22 LordPutin: i'm 1/3 gay, chinese and muslim, i win in the future

13:12:26 ThickAsThieves: the notion that i'm actually from here

13:12:53 ThickAsThieves: I'm not

13:12:57 BingoBoingo: Oh, a Jewish New York retiree then?

13:13:02 ThickAsThieves: lol

13:13:07 BingoBoingo: Cuban?

13:13:33 ThickAsThieves: afaik there is only one major place the Portuguese reside on the East Coast

13:13:49 ThickAsThieves: Massachusetts

13:14:42 ThickAsThieves: http://www.city-data.com/top2/h55.html

13:14:42 ozbot: Top 101 cities with the most residents born in Portugal (population 500+)

13:15:54 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.63266333 = 1.898 BTC [+] {2}

13:16:40 BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: You'd think that without a delimiter, some Portugese cities might be on the list...

13:16:55 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 12 @ 0.63470833 = 7.6165 BTC [+] {2}

13:17:22 ThickAsThieves: "We've collected and analyzed data from numerous sources to create as complete and interesting profiles of all U.S. cities as we could. "

13:17:56 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.63849999 = 1.277 BTC [+] {2}

13:19:24 ThickAsThieves: Apparently Rhode Island has more in total

13:19:32 ThickAsThieves: but RI is pretty much MA

13:20:37 BingoBoingo: Imma still working on the MP emails post.

13:21:06 ThickAsThieves: do you have an angle not covered by Benkay and bitcoinpete?

13:22:00 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 122 @ 0.00409999 = 0.5002 BTC [-]

13:22:36 BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: There's always at least a third angle

13:24:16 ThickAsThieves: then i look forward to it!

13:24:59 BingoBoingo: And there's definitely room for saying the same things in another tone and with different words. Even if nearly the same essential thing is said.

13:25:07 LordPutin: so um whats a good investment?

13:25:17 LordPutin: i really need to pay for my daughters surgery soon

13:27:53 ThickAsThieves: health insurance?

13:27:58 ThickAsThieves: a job?

13:28:15 BingoBoingo: An MD?

13:28:27 BingoBoingo: Residency?

13:28:49 BingoBoingo: "Soon" is really much too short of a timeline to invest for.

13:28:54 LordPutin: i mean in bitcoin securties

13:29:07 ThickAsThieves: we know

13:29:59 LordPutin: please help shes dying

13:30:18 bitmia: so ugh, I've been skimming the logs for quite a while. there's no point in doing a multisig Bitcoin marketplace, is there?

13:30:35 BingoBoingo: Nothing can promise positive returns on the timeline of soon. Not even things which might probably realize a positive return on the timeline of, quite a ways in the future.

13:30:50 BingoBoingo: bitmia: No real reason for multisig at least

13:31:45 LordPutin: i'm so scared, i failed her as a father

13:32:10 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00613809 = 0.6138 BTC [+] {5}

13:32:40 bitmia: well, at least some hot wallet protection + a guarantee we won't run with user's money

13:34:04 bitmia: given the fact we publish the escrow on github and make it possible to check the hash sum

13:34:12 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 106 @ 0.00406885 = 0.4313 BTC [+] {4}

13:34:56 bitmia: does it make sense?

13:35:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 93 @ 0.00409999 = 0.3813 BTC [+]

13:36:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32900 @ 0.00080507 = 26.4868 BTC [+] {2}

13:36:34 BingoBoingo: bitmia: Well, either you can be trusted to run a marketplace or you can't. Maybe some people trust you and some don't.

13:37:47 bitmia: when people are forced to take a leap of faith, conversion suffers

13:38:11 ThickAsThieves: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/20pnl2/a_hacker_defrauded_an_ottawa_bitcoin_exchange_of/

13:38:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.00391354 = 0.7827 BTC [-] {9}

13:38:38 nubbins`: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Ottawa+bitcoin+exchange+defrauded+cyber+currency/9628321/story.html

13:38:39 ozbot: Ottawa bitcoin exchange defrauded of $100,000 in cyber currency

13:38:42 nubbins`: ^ canadianbitcoins.com

13:38:46 ThickAsThieves: too slow!

13:38:59 ThickAsThieves: by like 15 secs

13:39:09 ThickAsThieves: that's topace's thing

13:39:31 ThickAsThieves: hopefully he can rape the provider for his losses and then some

13:40:11 bitmia: BingoBoingo: so what do you consider bad in doing a multisig one? usability?

13:41:24 BingoBoingo: bitmia: Well, what would you want the multisig to do that couldn't otherwise be accomplished?

13:41:47 bitmia: BingoBoingo: nothing, it's an extra

13:42:36 bitmia: to increase conversion

13:43:30 BingoBoingo: bitmia: Well, what ways are there to do what multisig does which would be both A) less of a hassle and B) accomplish your goal more effectively

13:44:23 BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves nubbins`: Dat Social engineering

13:44:56 bitmia: BingoBoingo: encrypt buyer's privkey on the server using his password, automatically sign the transaction with the seller's key, show the buyer a flashy "finalize" button?

13:46:18 BingoBoingo: bitmia: This confusion you are showing you you use words like privkey and automatically sign, is a common one

13:47:16 BingoBoingo: Now if you want to trust something stronger than passwords that is admirable.

13:47:34 BingoBoingo: bitmia: Have you ever authenticated with Gribble before?

13:47:47 bitmia: yes, why?

13:48:33 BingoBoingo: bitmia: Which way do you usually authenticate?

13:49:09 bitmia: decrypting a pgp encrypted message?

13:49:53 BingoBoingo: bitmia: And does Gribble ever have to possess your private key for this to happen?

13:50:49 bitmia: I see where you're going with this, it's simply a pain in the ass to do multisig

13:50:51 nubbins`: ThickAsThieves: let's hope so, pretty shocking lack of security

13:51:13 bitmia: BingoBoingo: will 2FA suffice, you think?

13:51:45 BingoBoingo: bitmia: Well, I was more going for it is problematic to have multisig where all of the keys live on the same server.

13:52:15 BingoBoingo: bitmia: Why not have people authenticate by decrypting or signing a challenge, like gribble does?

13:52:28 bitmia: cause it won't be A) less of a hassle

13:53:02 BingoBoingo: bitmia: But, it handles authentication much better.

13:53:31 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.62467 = 1.874 BTC [-] {3}

13:54:30 BingoBoingo: If there was a conjunction is this language that functioned as a one way or such that [(A&B) or B] I would have use it instead

13:55:00 ThickAsThieves: LTC at .03btc

14:00:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.00383141 = 0.1916 BTC [-] {3}

14:02:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41600 @ 0.00080661 = 33.555 BTC [+] {4}

14:03:41 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 601 @ 0.00381444 = 2.2925 BTC [-] {8}

14:03:42 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.62001002 BTC [-]

14:04:38 Apocalyptic: dat LTC

14:04:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17600 @ 0.00079968 = 14.0744 BTC [-] {2}

14:06:44 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 53 @ 0.00373723 = 0.1981 BTC [-]

14:12:50 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.62 BTC [-]

14:16:54 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.62001002 BTC [+]

14:17:55 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 78 @ 0.00373722 = 0.2915 BTC [-] {2}

14:19:57 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00373722 = 0.3737 BTC [-] {2}

14:20:58 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 77 @ 0.00373723 = 0.2878 BTC [+]

14:24:05 benkay: bitmia: if you're trying to make a crypto-related thing less of a hassle, you're undermining the point of crypto-things.

14:26:03 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.638898 BTC [+]

14:27:04 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 69 @ 0.00613871 = 0.4236 BTC [+] {6}

14:38:18 blackwhite_: ok guys I have a question. I am considering buying a trading website and turning it into a site based on bitcoin data instead. Is there any good sources for realtime bitcoin data?

14:39:09 ThickAsThieves: youre probably late to that game

14:39:12 Mats_cd03: dont waste your money and buy some mpex stock instead

14:42:19 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 10000 @ 0.00015055 = 1.5055 BTC [-] {7}

14:43:20 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 150 @ 0.00397011 = 0.5955 BTC [+] {4}

14:45:07 Mats_cd03: or hire a few programmers that know their shit and build your own brand, what do you need a trading website for?

14:49:06 blackwhite_: The source engine is already build. The rest I can do myself.

14:49:50 blackwhite_: and the price for the platform is 380USD so not really sure I will be wasting money even if it goes titis up :)

14:53:21 punkman: blackwhite_, retrofitting whatever you are buying is gonna be a hassle

14:53:54 blackwhite_: yeah perhaps

14:54:00 nubbins`: especially if you don't already know where you're getting your data from

14:54:02 nubbins`: JUST SAYIN

14:54:15 blackwhite_: why is that a problem?

14:54:20 blackwhite_: I can figure that out

14:54:31 nubbins`: if you can figure it out, why ask us?

14:54:32 blackwhite_: by among other things asking in this channel :)

14:54:43 blackwhite_: well because this is a good place to ask

14:54:45 nubbins`: "hey guys i'd like to open a sandwich shop, is there any place i can buy deli meats in bulk?"

14:54:51 blackwhite_: huh?

14:54:54 nubbins`: know what i mean?

14:54:57 blackwhite_: no I don't

14:55:03 nubbins`: then you're doomed

14:55:11 blackwhite_: i am asking in this channel because there are a lot of knowledgeable people here

14:55:15 nubbins`: sure

14:55:24 blackwhite_: so whats the problem?

14:55:32 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5000 @ 0.00015002 = 0.7501 BTC [-] {4}

14:55:33 nubbins`: the problem is, you're getting ahead of yourself

14:55:36 blackwhite_: you think just because I don't get an answer here I won't have any other options

14:55:46 nubbins`: the first thing you should do is figure out where to get your data from

14:55:57 blackwhite_: so that is what I am doing right now

14:56:04 nubbins`: if your first instinct is to pop on irc and ask someone rather than do a simple google search which would have already given you answers...

14:56:12 nubbins`: ...then you're not ready to run a business of any sort

14:56:15 nubbins`: sorry

14:56:29 blackwhite_: i have run several businesses m8.

14:56:30 nubbins`: hurts, but it's just the way it is

14:56:34 nubbins`: gr8 m8

14:56:41 nubbins`: y w8?

14:57:27 blackwhite_: but sure there are always people like you around to make sure no one does things the way you don't want them to be done

14:57:57 nubbins`: hey, it makes no difference to me

14:58:10 blackwhite_: you are getting ahead of yourself assuming things you have no knowledge about.

14:58:12 nubbins`: just a downer when people pop in here asking others to do their basic research for them

14:58:21 chetty: well maybe if you had asked, hey guys, what do you think of X as a data soirce ... just sayin

14:58:26 nubbins`: then flap their gums at the people who tell 'em to do their homework

14:58:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 6 @ 0.11950724 = 0.717 BTC [-]

14:58:50 nubbins`: hence my comment about the sandwich shop

14:59:20 punkman: blackwhite_, I have the thing you want, but like nubbins` is saying...

14:59:33 nubbins`: seriously guys where do i buy bulk deli meat?

14:59:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 37 @ 0.00613985 = 0.2272 BTC [+]

15:00:04 nubbins`: i could just google "bulk deli meat <my area>" but figured i'd spend 10 minutes wasting the time of a bunch of strangers instead

15:00:21 nubbins`: because i've run several businesses m8

15:00:26 blackwhite_: don't worry guys. I won't rob you of your precious knowledge. Someone already answered me.

15:00:26 nubbins`: gr8 b8 m8

15:00:37 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 19 @ 0.00613999 = 0.1167 BTC [+]

15:00:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.629998 BTC [-]

15:00:45 nubbins`: you can't rob knowledge, it's only shared

15:00:47 nubbins`: :D

15:01:27 nubbins`: or not shared, depending on the prior effort of the person asking

15:01:28 blackwhite_: I have done my homework but sure i haven't talked much in this channel so I can understand why some feel like i am just popping in

15:01:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.63 = 1.26 BTC [+]

15:01:54 blackwhite_: anyway I got a couple of good leads that I hadn't already heard about.

15:01:56 blackwhite_: l84

15:02:02 nubbins`: blackwhite_: here's a link, i'm seriously not being saucy: http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

15:02:03 blackwhite_: later

15:02:39 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [COG] 7 @ 0.03010001 = 0.2107 BTC [-] {2}

15:03:25 artifexd: nubbins` Interestingly, that link says that IRC is a good first place to ask.

15:03:26 blackwhite_: nubbins` i got my answers. See not everyone feels like they need to make a statement every time. Someone you know just like to help and make no fuzz about it.

15:03:49 nubbins`: artifexd: http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#before

15:03:50 artifexd: There is a whole section on "Before you ask" though...

15:03:53 nubbins`: ;D

15:03:59 artifexd: :)

15:04:31 chetty: http://ukrainianpolicy.com/turkey-warns-russia-it-will-blockade-bosphorus/

15:04:44 bitmia: benkay: crypto-things are not bound to be complicated (ie not user-friendly)

15:04:48 nubbins`: blackwhite_: if i've frustrated you enough to make you waste your own time rather than someone else's when you next have a question, i've done my job

15:05:18 nubbins`: sorry if that offends, but c'est ça

15:05:43 blackwhite_: frustrated? That would mean that your opinion mattered. It doesn't so no worries.

15:06:21 *: nubbins` yawns

15:06:33 nubbins`: glad you haven't learned anything

15:06:40 nubbins`: onward through the fog...

15:07:42 blackwhite_: I learned something just not from you. Again no worries.

15:07:44 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 934 @ 0.00389915 = 3.6418 BTC [-] {5}

15:10:07 nubbins`: indeed, none are worried :D

15:10:53 thestringpuller: can someone fill a bitcoin bar with tungsten for me?

15:10:56 thestringpuller: will pay 1 btfc

15:10:58 thestringpuller: lol

15:11:30 only: chetty warnings, sanctions. we have this saying in ukraine "the dog barks, the caravan moves on"

15:12:01 blackwhite_: https://xkcd.com/386/

15:12:01 ozbot: xkcd: Duty Calls

15:12:32 blackwhite_: it must be hard nubbins :)

15:14:24 artifexd: http://thewhet.net/ is MPOE-PR?

15:14:25 ozbot: The Whet | a place for appetites

15:14:26 nubbins`: easiest thing in the world

15:14:36 nubbins`: besides, it's morning here

15:15:04 BingoBoingo: artifexd: Yes

15:17:18 punkman: thestringpuller: you can get them on alibaba

15:17:21 only: is she really a girl?

15:17:46 BingoBoingo: only: There are pics on fraudsters

15:18:11 LordPutin: only when mircea puts ona wig and tucks his willy between his legs

15:19:41 davout: only: yup

15:19:52 nubbins`: heh

15:19:56 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 747 @ 0.00409964 = 3.0624 BTC [+] {3}

15:20:08 nubbins`: the whole "is pr fake? a woman? mp?" thing is pretty entertaining

15:20:24 nubbins`: especially given that the answer to all three questions is "who cares"

15:20:39 kakobrekla: only thats my personalized message on retardtalk

15:21:19 kakobrekla: namely Psi laju, karavani prolaze.

15:21:37 BingoBoingo: Crimea bet could get interesting, not enough to come close to resolving it yet, but http://politics.slashdot.org/story/14/03/18/1448248/russian-army-spetsnaz-units-arrested-operating-in-ukraine

15:22:55 davout: !t m x.eur

15:22:56 assbot: [MPEX:X.EUR] 1D: 0.00213452 / 0.00213452 / 0.00213452 (450 shares, 0.96 BTC), 7D: 0.00210539 / 0.00212399 / 0.00213452 (2081 shares, 4.42 BTC), 30D: 0.0019005 / 0.00210455 / 0.00226762 (7458 shares, 15.70 BTC)

15:23:31 artifexd: I was just contrasting the general "You suck" attitude of here bitcointalk posts with the general "You can do it" attitude of her blog posts. In particular, this post: http://thewhet.net/2012/this-is-it/

15:23:37 artifexd: *her

15:24:27 only: nubbins`: writing like she does is a rare thing for a woman

15:24:46 nubbins`: meh, read margaret atwood

15:25:01 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 8 @ 0.0662 = 0.5296 BTC [+]

15:25:09 only: well, I said rare :)

15:25:21 only: rare enough to make me ask the question

15:26:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.05350555 = 0.4815 BTC [+] {2}

15:26:03 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.638 = 1.276 BTC [+]

15:26:20 nubbins`: margaret laurence, too

15:28:04 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06500002 = 0.195 BTC [-] {2}

15:29:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06450001 = 0.258 BTC [-]

15:30:06 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 11 @ 0.06444092 = 0.7089 BTC [-] {3}

15:31:07 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06437002 = 0.2575 BTC [-]

15:31:08 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 13 @ 0.05385383 = 0.7001 BTC [+] {2}

15:31:44 Mats_cd03: blackwhite: what an irritating sense of entitlement. have a nice day

15:32:08 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 12 @ 0.05393184 = 0.6472 BTC [+] {3}

15:33:09 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.06400001 = 0.384 BTC [-] {2}

15:34:10 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06400001 = 0.256 BTC [-]

15:35:11 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.638 = 1.276 BTC [+]

15:35:59 HeySteve2: only, here is another thing that is rare in a woman

15:36:06 HeySteve2: your pee pee :D

15:36:12 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.63897333 = 3.8338 BTC [+] {3}

15:36:24 only: lol

15:36:35 only: good one

15:37:02 benkay: bitmia: complicated does not necessarily mean not user friendly

15:37:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06889999 = 0.1378 BTC [+]

15:37:19 benkay: for instance, i don't actually want to spend any time around people for whom gpg is challenging to use

15:37:37 chetty: uhoh

15:38:02 benkay: (dramatic overstatement, chetty)

15:38:31 chetty: hihi, well I admit I usually have to look up commands - sigh

15:38:34 davout: come on, gpg is user friendly!

15:38:36 bitmia: benkay: you'd certainly want that if you were a seller

15:39:15 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 996 @ 0.00400297 = 3.987 BTC [-] {5}

15:39:16 chetty: but as a buyer I dont really want my crypto too easy

15:39:19 benkay: so the point of the gpg claim is that if you can't read the gnu privacy guard manual, you're worthless

15:40:01 bitmia: chetty: easy ≠ insecure

15:40:34 benkay: bitmia: i don't really do mass-market plays.

15:40:38 chetty: nope the two are not really related, its all perception

15:40:42 benkay: mo users, mo problems.

15:40:58 bitmia: mo users, mo money in my book :)

15:41:26 benkay: classic startup circus attitude.

15:41:39 chetty: http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2014/03/18/report-ny-to-probe-high-frequency-trading/

15:42:57 benkay: would we rather a billion pennies from a billion paupers, or individual clients with lifetime value to the firm in excess of 500B each?

15:43:07 benkay: this is a matter of personal preference, obviously.

15:43:19 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.62501 = 1.25 BTC [-] {2}

15:43:45 chetty: there is room in this world for both kinds

15:43:59 benkay: of course

15:44:07 benkay: is there room in a given business model for serving both?

15:44:15 benkay: dunno, haven't seen any that satisfy the criteria yet.

15:44:51 benkay: maybe Eve?

15:45:12 benkay: one can buy impressive e-peen widgets in that game, and at nontrivial prices to boot.

15:46:09 bitmia: benkay, I was doing a marketplace, remember? how the fuck am I supposed to have individual clients with a lifetime value of 500B?

15:46:53 benkay: obviously you're going for pennies from paupers.

15:47:00 benkay: matter of personal taste, like i said.

15:47:15 bitmia: that's the point, and paupers don't like 'em private keys

15:47:32 benkay: which is what will keep them forever worth pennies.

15:47:51 benkay: inability or unwillingness to do the hard things necessary to raise personal value above a single dollar.

15:47:57 Mats_cd03: baww

15:48:38 bitmia: benkay, and what are the hard necessary things in a marketplace?

15:49:11 benkay: having something worth selling maybe?

15:49:14 benkay: kinda unclear question

15:49:22 benkay: hard for the guy building the marketplace or hard for the participants?

15:50:25 bitmia: what would you like to see in an ebay style, two-way Bitcoin marketplace? what security features

15:50:41 benkay: WoT integration would be neat

15:50:47 bitmia: both as a seller and a buyer

15:50:48 benkay: probably a non-starter around here without that.

15:54:53 davout: anyone else receiving fake wallet backups from blockchain.info?

15:56:20 Mats_cd03: phishing emails?

15:56:21 bitmia: benkay: I considered using an irc bot to create profiles for the ones that don't have them yet, but that would mean holding their privkeys for them. beats the purpose sortof

15:59:12 benkay: if i were building that thing (and i'm not, and we haven't even discussed the market use for such a thing in the wake of the other ebay clones that have failed), i'd make it a hard requirement for sellers to have WoT identities.

15:59:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 2.34104034 BTC to 3`957 shares, 59162 satoshi per share

15:59:36 davout: Mats_cd03: e-mails containing a wallet backup ending in .jar

15:59:37 benkay: but if they have a bitcoin wallet, they can sign a thing.

15:59:45 bitmia: it is still unclear why they failed tho

15:59:52 benkay: yeah, well, occam

16:00:03 benkay: but irrelevant, you seem set on doing your thing

16:00:18 benkay: anyways.

16:00:28 benkay: gpg is not even necessary for wot participation, you should know.

16:00:37 benkay: a bitcoin wallet under user control would suffice

16:00:42 benkay: "but what about the coinbase and web wallet users?"

16:00:54 benkay: well man if you really want to scrape the bottom of the barrel, ain't nobody going to stop you.

16:01:35 chetty: make em use private wallets at least, get people off using webwallets

16:02:34 bitmia: the blockchain size is the ultimate demotivator

16:02:42 benkay: electrum bam

16:03:07 benkay: dood you need to do so much reading

16:03:16 bitmia: so wait, wait

16:03:16 benkay: grok spv?

16:03:35 bitmia: you want me to persuade users to use irc, electrum, pgp, what else?

16:03:52 benkay: you must have a reading problem.

16:04:11 benkay: electrum will suffice for identification.

16:04:15 benkay: "sign this thing."

16:04:17 thestringpuller: lol electrum

16:04:23 benkay: you can even proxy over to gribble yourself

16:04:52 benkay: electrum's still a thing, right thestringpuller?

16:04:59 benkay: are there any viable spv wallets kicking around?

16:05:04 thestringpuller: i'm too old for this conversation

16:05:08 thestringpuller: i turn 62 next month

16:05:09 thestringpuller: so

16:05:21 thestringpuller: i'm not up to date with you young whipper snappers

16:06:08 BingoBoingo: benkay: I like Multibit, but haven't found comepelling cause to try versions newer than 0.5.11

16:06:26 benkay: ya well constant upgrades are the fruit of the devil

16:06:50 benkay: so bitmia go learn about simple payment verification and why people don't actually need the whole blockchain on disk.

16:08:57 bitmia_: hm, what about a browser extension to include the wot (proxied over to gribble) and the escrow thing?

16:09:17 benkay: sounds like an implementation detail to me.

16:09:59 thestringpuller: just download the block chain

16:10:03 thestringpuller: you broke ass niggas

16:10:09 thestringpuller: 20 gigs costs less than a beer

16:11:41 bitmia_: if only it took less time than a week

16:12:00 benkay: yeah but thestringpuller don't you understand bitmia_'s customers can barely swing a bitcent ;)

16:16:40 bitmia: benkay: but really, why do you think bitmit/coingig went to shit?

16:17:04 benkay: because bitcoin isn't a consumer technology.

16:18:30 bitmia: and never will be?

16:18:51 benkay: how many on the welfare roles own a single troy oz?

16:19:43 bitmia: you can't teleport silver, can you?

16:19:48 bitmia: but yeah, got your point

16:20:44 benkay: don't get too discouraged

16:20:48 benkay: you're doing everything right

16:20:52 benkay: just lurk moar

16:21:03 benkay: ;;ident bitmia

16:21:03 gribble: Nick 'bitmia', with hostmask 'bitmia!~bitmia@unaffiliated/bitmia', is not identified.

16:21:13 benkay: ;;gettrust bitmia

16:21:14 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user benkay to user bitmia: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=benkay&dest=bitmia | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=bitmia | Rated since: never

16:21:38 benkay: you're even in the web!

16:21:48 benkay: i don't even believe it

16:25:00 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 499 @ 0.00400007 = 1.996 BTC [-] {4}

16:29:27 bitmia: does everyone here agree that bitcoin cannot be a consumer technology? want to get this straight

16:31:29 bitmia: I'm enjoying myself a lot when I buy or sell for Bitcoin. means I'm dumb?

16:33:08 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.6200001 = 1.24 BTC [-] {2}

16:33:09 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06889979 = 0.1378 BTC [-]

16:35:10 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06796652 = 0.2039 BTC [-] {2}

16:35:23 benkay: people enjoy wasting money on satoshi dice too

16:35:46 benkay: if you enjoy spending bitcoin, eventually you'll have none.

16:36:08 LordPutin: anyone have a squawker box link they listen to for real world financial markets?

16:37:12 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 417 @ 0.00415813 = 1.7339 BTC [+] {4}

16:39:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 36 @ 0.06893232 = 2.4816 BTC [+] {10}

16:39:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 25 @ 0.0045 = 0.1125 BTC [-]

16:43:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06958767 = 0.2088 BTC [+]

16:48:23 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 38 @ 0.00600007 = 0.228 BTC [-] {2}

16:51:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 95 @ 0.00403684 = 0.3835 BTC [-] {2}

16:51:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19450 @ 0.00080054 = 15.5705 BTC [+] {2}

16:53:40 BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/03/18/regulation-of-magic/

16:53:41 ozbot: Regulation of Magic | Bingo Blog

17:04:39 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 157 @ 0.00417206 = 0.655 BTC [+] {3}

17:09:44 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06999998 = 0.28 BTC [+] {2}

17:10:45 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 53 @ 0.07 = 3.71 BTC [+] {2}

17:11:46 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 4 @ 0.05389 = 0.2156 BTC [+]

17:21:59 benkay: roll tide!

17:23:15 benkay: no no BingoBoingo they'll comply within 2 weeks, you see

17:27:24 artifexd: BingoBoingo Your link to bitcoinpete's blog is broken.

17:32:06 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.0675 = 0.2025 BTC [+] {3}

17:32:47 MisterE: LTC on Huboi pump on now

17:33:02 MisterE: check the volumes

17:33:07 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.06849999 = 0.137 BTC [+] {2}

17:35:09 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00415 = 0.415 BTC [-]

17:36:10 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 28 @ 0.00415 = 0.1162 BTC [-]

17:38:12 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 102 @ 0.00417439 = 0.4258 BTC [+] {2}

17:39:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 353 @ 0.00417439 = 1.4736 BTC [+] {2}

17:40:08 test123: hello

17:41:58 test123: hello

17:43:32 thestringpuller: PING PONG

17:46:59 benkay: hola test123

17:47:57 Ishatmyself: sup ladies

17:48:18 LordPutin: hi babe

17:48:22 benkay: .bait

17:48:23 ozbot: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2xrubXlSW1rrwt6yo1_500.jpg

17:49:11 benkay: .bait

17:49:12 ozbot: http://25.media.tumblr.com/e33c8c5a1f69d16ced64d311a6a1799e/tumblr_n1mkz5iqKf1qk2vvro1_500.jpg

17:49:23 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 105 @ 0.0041744 = 0.4383 BTC [+]

17:51:25 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 596 @ 0.00419445 = 2.4999 BTC [+] {7}

17:53:27 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 26 @ 0.00423069 = 0.11 BTC [+] {4}

17:54:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.6205 = 3.723 BTC [+] {2}

17:55:04 MisterE: .bagholder

17:57:25 MisterE: http://i.imgur.com/XJZSD8Y.jpg?1

17:57:53 benkay: nice.

17:58:27 MisterE: :D

17:58:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38202 @ 0.00080268 = 30.664 BTC [+] {2}

17:59:09 benkay: yeah you buy a shitton of mpoe at 80k

17:59:33 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 185 @ 0.004242 = 0.7848 BTC [+]

17:59:34 benkay: nom nom nom

17:59:38 benkay: !t h rent

17:59:39 assbot: [HAVELOCK:RENT] 1D: 0.00550000 / 0.00566827 / 0.00568660 (31 shares, 0.17571650 BTC), 7D: 0.00510111 / 0.00590703 / 0.00647960 (1779 shares, 10.50861044 BTC), 30D: 0.00510111 / 0.00556068 / 0.00900001 (51251 shares, 284.99064045 BTC)

17:59:57 benkay: har back at par

18:00:08 benkay: anyone know if rent's paid divs yet?

18:00:34 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 572 @ 0.00428698 = 2.4522 BTC [+] {4}

18:00:57 LordPutin: why not ask in the #rentalstarter room

18:01:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00429 = 2.145 BTC [+]

18:01:54 benkay: ugh because i don't want that on my shoes

18:02:07 LordPutin: okey wait i'm asking for u

18:02:14 LordPutin: on saturday

18:02:22 test123: does it still cost 30btc to join MPEx

18:02:43 LordPutin: yeah it does

18:03:15 KRS-1: worth it

18:03:18 test123: coinbr is only alternative way to access?

18:03:36 benkay: you could ask someone to broker a transaction for you

18:03:44 LordPutin: benkay thy've paid out 2 divs so far

18:03:50 LordPutin: and another one coming up this sat

18:04:40 test123: k

18:04:50 benkay: ;;google drinking record counterparties

18:04:51 gribble: A Reminder – The Most Important Word in Bitcoin, Again because Gox: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/02/25/a-reminder-the-most-important-word-in-bitcoin-again-because-gox/; Why Fractional Reserve Can't Work in Bitcoin | Bingo Blog: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2013/11/11/fractional-reserve-bitcoins/; Bingo Blog | - of Bitcoin and Boingo: (1 more message)

18:04:58 benkay: test123 ^^

18:05:11 benkay: if you're going the brokered transaction route

18:05:46 test123: k

18:06:41 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 116 @ 0.00429 = 0.4976 BTC [+]

18:07:41 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 123 @ 0.00429 = 0.5277 BTC [+]

18:08:42 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 11 @ 0.07328271 = 0.8061 BTC [+] {3}

18:10:44 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 9 @ 0.073 = 0.657 BTC [-]

18:18:53 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 181 @ 0.00429 = 0.7765 BTC [+]

18:28:01 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.63699992 = 2.548 BTC [+] {4}

18:32:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 41 @ 0.00428999 = 0.1759 BTC [-]

18:33:06 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 143 @ 0.00420063 = 0.6007 BTC [-] {3}

18:34:35 nubbins`: !t h hif

18:34:36 assbot: [HAVELOCK:HIF] 1D: 0.00039967 / 0.00047251 / 0.00051299 (2962 shares, 1.39957800 BTC), 7D: 0.00039967 / 0.00049703 / 0.00056898 (22353 shares, 11.11019720 BTC), 30D: 0.00036000 / 0.00049595 / 0.00057500 (71086 shares, 35.25533251 BTC)

18:37:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28300 @ 0.00079956 = 22.6275 BTC [-] {3}

18:38:07 benkay: !t b pif

18:38:07 assbot: Um, shouldn't you be with your own tribe or somethin'?

18:40:51 imsaguy: ThickAsThieves: ping

18:46:19 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 299 @ 0.00434179 = 1.2982 BTC [+] {5}

18:49:22 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 846 @ 0.00434999 = 3.6801 BTC [+] {3}

18:52:25 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 37 @ 0.60626459 = 22.4318 BTC [-] {13}

18:55:36 hdbuck: !t h AM1

18:55:37 assbot: [HAVELOCK:AM1] 1D: 0.59000000 / 0.6174602 / 0.63900000 (196 shares, 121.02219937 BTC), 7D: 0.57000000 / 0.60139755 / 0.63999990 (1027 shares, 617.63528627 BTC), 30D: 0.45000000 / 0.56496539 / 0.68000000 (3714 shares, 2098.28145633 BTC)

18:56:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00600286 = 0.6003 BTC [+] {2}

19:12:45 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 30 @ 0.004349 = 0.1305 BTC [-]

19:13:46 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 25 @ 0.0043 = 0.1075 BTC [-] {3}

19:46:20 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.11950724 BTC [-]

19:47:21 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.11950724 BTC [-]

19:54:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 57 @ 0.0042 = 0.2394 BTC [-] {4}

20:04:18 Apocalyptic: .d

20:04:19 ozbot: 4.250 billion | Next Diff in 1109 blocks | Estimated Change: 9.8846% in 6d 22h 12m 27s

20:13:45 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 115 @ 0.00419021 = 0.4819 BTC [-] {2}

20:18:15 ThickAsThieves: http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/03/18/greek-bank-issues-bond-at-5-really/

20:18:15 ozbot: Greek Bank Issues Bond at 5%. Really - MoneyBeat - WSJ

20:22:20 benkay: wat

20:24:06 ThickAsThieves: utter nonsense from WU http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2014/03/18/western-union-ceo-what-digital-currencies-are-missing/

20:25:33 ThickAsThieves: kakobrekla, when can we have AltBet.us?

20:26:37 kakobrekla: on btc/usd atc/usd parity

20:26:50 kakobrekla: best bet is usd being worth 0.

20:27:10 ThickAsThieves: booo

20:27:27 ThickAsThieves: some super-servant you are...

20:27:58 kakobrekla: fuck this life, for one night you dont suck a dick and suddenly you are not a hoe anymore.

20:28:40 ThickAsThieves: sucking dick makes the world go round

20:33:04 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 108 @ 0.00595685 = 0.6433 BTC [-] {6}

20:35:06 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00592699 = 0.5927 BTC [-] {3}

20:35:13 kakobrekla: yeah well

20:35:17 kakobrekla: you do it tonight!

20:35:35 *: jurov just had it done

20:35:36 thestringpuller: ThickAsThieves: can't you just make your own altbet.us?

20:36:07 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00591 = 0.591 BTC [-] {2}

20:37:29 ThickAsThieves: i'm owed too many BJs as it is

20:37:42 ThickAsThieves: no reason to put bad debt after good

20:38:13 ThickAsThieves: <thestringpuller> ThickAsThieves: can't you just make your own altbet.us // No, first i wouldnt wanna rip off kako

20:38:18 ThickAsThieves: second, i dont have the means

20:38:40 thestringpuller: no programming for you?

20:38:49 ThickAsThieves: as little as possible at least

20:39:04 ThickAsThieves: being a programmer wouldnt be enough anyway

20:39:10 benkay: no wai

20:39:13 benkay: u just php

20:39:15 benkay: and then bitcoin

20:39:20 ThickAsThieves: altcoin!

20:39:28 benkay: sure whatever

20:41:01 thestringpuller: what's the altcoin site again?

20:41:57 kakobrekla: therealbitcoin.com

20:42:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7 @ 0.07 = 0.49 BTC [-]

20:42:14 Apocalyptic: such fail

20:42:57 ThickAsThieves: therealaltcoin.org

20:46:32 jurov: thestringpuller: pm

20:47:18 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 112 @ 0.00418999 = 0.4693 BTC [+]

20:49:06 dR3: woh...blockr.io hostname for ATC. tightness.

21:07:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 168 @ 0.00419 = 0.7039 BTC [+]

21:17:48 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.07 = 0.35 BTC [-]

21:20:51 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 28 @ 0.0055 = 0.154 BTC [-]

21:25:56 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 250 @ 0.00419 = 1.0475 BTC [+]

21:33:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00080178 = 9.461 BTC [+] {2}

22:02:32 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 112 @ 0.00418026 = 0.4682 BTC [+] {2}

22:07:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.00080326 = 10.9243 BTC [+]

22:08:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 48 @ 0.00419 = 0.2011 BTC [+]

22:10:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 131 @ 0.00419 = 0.5489 BTC [+]

22:16:46 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.07 = 0.35 BTC [-]

22:23:53 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 39 @ 0.0029326 = 0.1144 BTC [-] {3}

22:26:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17188 @ 0.00080326 = 13.8064 BTC [+]

22:27:57 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 307 @ 0.00419 = 1.2863 BTC [+]

22:39:51 dexX7: ;;tslb

22:39:58 gribble: Error: Problem retrieving latest block data.

22:40:02 dexX7: i hate u

22:41:58 dexX7: does gribble pull data from bc.i?

22:48:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 78 @ 0.004144 = 0.3232 BTC [-] {2}

22:54:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35200 @ 0.00080565 = 28.3589 BTC [+] {3}

23:00:21 Neil: ;bc,stats

23:00:25 Neil: ;;bc,stats

23:00:29 gribble: Current Blocks: 291221 | Current Difficulty: 4.2502179198695354E9 | Next Difficulty At Block: 292319 | Next Difficulty In: 1098 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 21 hours, 18 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 4652331064.67 | Estimated Percent Change: 9.461

23:00:36 Neil: Ooh, 9.46%

23:00:56 Neil: Dese blocks definitely slowing down

23:01:46 Neil: blockchain.info fucked again

23:03:32 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.053 = 0.106 BTC [-]

23:03:33 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.0666 = 0.1332 BTC [-]

23:07:42 cazalla: good luck but i'm still betting against you Neil :)

23:09:55 Neil: cazalla: I tend to agree it'll be above 10%, but not a lot above

23:10:15 Neil: I don't think we'll ever see a 25% (perhaps even 20%) difficulty rise again.

23:11:15 cazalla: it

23:11:26 cazalla: it'll be an awesome win if it does remain under 10%

23:26:09 ninjashogun: hiya

23:45:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 187 @ 0.004144 = 0.7749 BTC [-]

23:54:22 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 50 @ 0.00541 = 0.2705 BTC [-]