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Transcript for 18-03-2016, 678 lines:

00:42:34 phf: hfs+ still has forks, except now they have some ~monster~ xattr resourcefork hybrid

00:44:12 phf: befs was tight in that respect, where they blend xattr and file contents, and then build all tools with metadata support upfront, so you could have a folder full of mp3s and they would come up as song-name, song-title, date, etc.

00:44:13 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=309 << obligatory oldie

00:44:15 assbot: Loper OS » No Formats, no Format Wars. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DG9cuX )

00:44:18 phf: or email for that matter

00:45:01 phf: beos email client was a thing to download mail and the thing to view/compose. everything else was handled by file manager

00:46:17 asciilifeform: this was a step towards the Right Thing.

01:07:20 TomServo: !up AaronvanW

01:08:54 jurov: http://dpaste.com/3CYDMQH BingoBoingo: not 100% fresh but should be still qntrable

01:08:55 assbot: dpaste: 3CYDMQH: qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ua0HVz )

01:14:41 danielpbarron: mod6, sure thing!

02:07:39 BingoBoingo: ty jurov

02:07:57 BingoBoingo: should hit the deedbutt shortly

02:08:42 deedbot-: [Qntra] EU Marching Towards "Helicopter Money" As Other Manipulations Are Exhausted - http://qntra.net/2016/03/eu-marching-towards-helicopter-money-as-other-manipulations-are-exhausted/

02:08:52 punkman: http://europe.newsweek.com/robots-sent-fukushima-have-died-435332?

02:08:53 assbot: The Robots Sent Into Fukushima Have 'Died' ... ( http://bit.ly/1RpQMo6 )

02:15:18 BingoBoingo: In REAL AMERICA news, just for alf https://archive.is/ezrHo

02:15:24 punkman: jurov: I dun get it

02:15:58 BingoBoingo: punkman: Don't get what?

02:16:11 punkman: the article

02:16:35 BingoBoingo: punkman: European central bank is likely going to do money direct to consumers

02:16:58 BingoBoingo: OH I stripped out the links

02:17:10 asciilifeform: lavalulz: http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2016-March/028669.html

02:17:11 assbot: [Cryptography] Lavabit's and Snowden's Solos ... ( http://bit.ly/1TSwPgf )

02:17:17 punkman: BingoBoingo: yeah that might help

02:18:06 BingoBoingo: k punkman try nao

02:18:42 asciilifeform: 'I did fight things out in court. It just occurred in secret, and while a proper description would require the use of vulgarity, I'll summarize by saying I was railroaded. The length of time between when I received the PRTT order, and when I was found in contempt (ex parte) was about 5 weeks. For comparison the /median /time between filing and disposition of a civil contempt charge in federal court during 2013 was 6 /months/.'

02:18:46 BingoBoingo: "The health department said the fate of the bull would be left to the family." << Note, being a Bull means you get out of USG law racket sometimes

02:20:52 asciilifeform: 'we are entitled to everyone's plain text data, and if Congress won't give it to us, we'll use our 27.1 billion dollar budget, and army of 100K lawyers to take it in court. Your tax dollars at work.'

02:21:35 punkman: asciilifeform: plain text? they already had that

02:21:53 asciilifeform: see link.

02:27:57 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435672 << designing arbitrarily rad-hard waldo is not so hard - use hydraulic actuators for everything. and what's more, it would ~happen~ if, instead of dead robot leading to a lucrative extension of contract, the designer were marched to clean the reactor ~personally~.

02:27:57 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 02:08:53; assbot: The Robots Sent Into Fukushima Have 'Died' ... ( http://bit.ly/1RpQMo6 )

02:30:26 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435673 << i kinda wonder re: casualties of bull vs tractor

02:30:26 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 02:15:18; BingoBoingo: In REAL AMERICA news, just for alf https://archive.is/ezrHo

02:30:54 BingoBoingo: That depends on the will of the bull versus the skill of the tractor

02:31:02 BingoBoingo: I imagine

02:31:08 asciilifeform: what do american farmers typically die of on he job?

02:31:20 asciilifeform: *the

02:31:42 BingoBoingo: Often they suffocate in silos full of grain and silo gasses

02:31:46 asciilifeform: boredom?

02:31:56 BingoBoingo: Or get ripped up by power take offs

02:32:36 BingoBoingo: ;;google grain silo suffocation

02:32:37 gribble: Hazard Alert: Dangers of Engulfment and Suffocation in Grain Bins: https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/grainhandling/hazard_alert.html; Grain entrapment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_entrapment; Suffocation Hazards in Grain Bins - UK College of Agriculture: http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/aen/aen39/aen39.pdf

02:32:42 asciilifeform: i can't speak for the farmers, but i would take the bull over boredom.

02:32:53 asciilifeform: and in fact, their work over mine.

02:33:01 BingoBoingo: ;;google pto hazards

02:33:02 gribble: Hazards of the PTO on Farm Tractors - Alabama Cooperative ...: http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-1262/ANR-1262.pdf; Power Take-Off (PTO) Safety (also available in Spanish ...: http://extension.psu.edu/agsafety/vehicles-and-machinery/tractor-safety/e33; Know the Dangers of a PTO - Gempler's: https://www.gemplers.com/docs/tailgate-training-tip-sheets/9-pto-danger-en.pdf

02:34:15 BingoBoingo: ;;google us farm deaths

02:34:16 gribble: CDC - Agricultural Safety - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/aginjury/; Death on the Farm - Modern Farmer: http://modernfarmer.com/2014/06/farm-deaths/; OSHA Fact Sheet: Farm Safety: http://ehs.okstate.edu/training/oshafarm.htm

02:35:14 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435703 << recall the very picturesque lathe accident photos in the logz?

02:35:14 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 02:33:01; BingoBoingo: ;;google pto hazards

02:35:14 BingoBoingo: http://modernfarmer.com/2014/06/farm-deaths/ << "His jeans caught on a piece of manure-pumping equipment and, in the blink of an eye, his leg was connected to his torso by a mere inch of flesh. "

02:35:15 assbot: Death on the Farm - Modern Farmer ... ( http://bit.ly/1TSyuSM )

02:35:18 asciilifeform: same idea.

02:35:38 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, a tractor's PTO generally provides more power for the mangling

02:36:09 asciilifeform: there is a mega-classic one of a whole man wrapped up on the lathe, like a rope.

02:37:19 asciilifeform: just when you thought you've seen every possible mangled corpse - surprise!!1111

02:37:23 BingoBoingo: !s lathe accident

02:37:24 assbot: 0 results for 'lathe accident' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=lathe+accident

02:37:34 asciilifeform: hm.

02:38:01 asciilifeform: googleimages it.

02:38:19 asciilifeform: (or not.)

02:39:46 BingoBoingo: I'll get around to it

02:58:55 deedbot-: [Qntra] Woe: Getting Business Internet A Challenge In Heart Of Silicon Valley - http://qntra.net/2016/03/woe-getting-business-internet-a-challenge-in-heart-of-silicon-valley/

03:08:35 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

03:08:39 gribble: Current Blocks: 403160 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 39 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 hours, 38 minutes, and 17 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

03:17:36 punkman: speaking of "casualties of bull vs tractor" http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/13/the-macabre-truth-of-gun-control-in-the-us-is-that-toddlers-kill-more-people-than-terrorists-do

03:17:37 assbot: The macabre truth of gun control in the US is that toddlers kill more people than terrorists do | Lindy West | Opinion | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ro1iT0 )

03:28:17 BingoBoingo: punkman: For the record the author of that piece on the Toddler problem is a notorious hamplanet of ~400 pounds

03:29:05 BingoBoingo: Creature given its initial platform by Gawker Media's "Jezebel" fat rights blog

03:38:09 BingoBoingo: https://i.imgur.com/kX7Hyv8.jpg

03:38:10 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1nSWXt0 )

03:52:45 asciilifeform: l0l!!

04:21:00 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432214 << mircea_popescu, kakobrekla: this was all very rude and uncalled for, my apologies

04:21:00 assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 15:57:06; ben_vulpes: bitbet is dead.

04:22:07 asciilifeform: not dead, but in a coma.

04:25:52 ben_vulpes: i don't see how it can continue without mods and hosting on the books.

04:27:07 pete_dushenski: then bitbet needs a 5% rake. problem solved ?

04:45:27 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes s'okay, you;'re young and all.

04:48:01 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435577 << how'd this go ?

04:48:01 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 22:22:55; asciilifeform: distribute the exponentiated payload !111111

04:48:21 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435694 << heart attack. at least the men. they become accustomed to wholesome and hearty diets in their active years, which they have a hard time foregoing in their later years, despite increasingly sedentary lifestyles. ticker eventually calls it quits.

04:48:21 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 02:31:08; asciilifeform: what do american farmers typically die of on he job?

04:48:33 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435593 << check out jurov, he understands commerce!

04:48:33 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 22:44:15; jurov: "the goal is to have whole piece" implies it is seekable, thus feasible to scan the file for signatures from the end

04:51:49 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: i should further clarify that 'active years' were, regardless of the farmer's age, up until about 20 years ago. the size of farms have grown exponentially of late, hand-in-hand with the increased cost of inputs and the decreased price of outputs.

04:53:28 pete_dushenski: til draghi is a woman!

04:54:18 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435633 << i don't use heretic conventions. /n ftw.

04:54:18 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 23:10:43; asciilifeform: because - guess what - a CR/LF, LF, or CR - LOOK THE SAME on the page.

04:54:50 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435640 << pretty much!

04:54:50 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 23:15:07; jurov: no, he wants everything converted to plain english. maybe even 5-bit code without support for newline characters.

04:55:05 pete_dushenski: ecb wanted to keep up with feds but weren't nearing election (or selection) so they transgendered the poor sob

04:55:17 mircea_popescu: a) eye-readable contract ; b) machine-verifiable signature ; c) that can also be verified by hand ; d) in the same item.

04:55:44 pete_dushenski: sounds reasonable

04:55:51 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435644 << yes, but the problerm needs fixing, not replacing with worse problem.

04:55:51 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2016 23:16:04; asciilifeform: at the cost of gpg being utterly retarded in 101 ways

04:57:44 ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: assuming: betbet revenue is 100x divs (fault in several ways), and 2500 hours of time, and 0.4% of bitbet revenue to mods implies a .18 btc/hr mod rate. perverse incentive, though.

04:57:49 mircea_popescu: jurov ftr, "specie" in english means gold bullion. it's unadvisable to use in the context you do.

04:58:28 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes a simple way to address the problem is put in a fixed per-bet fee, of say .2 or .3 or w/e, and make bet minimum 1 or somesuch.

04:59:01 mircea_popescu: jurov is the mario draghi "she" deliberate ?

04:59:32 mircea_popescu: also, it wouldn't be "bucks", it'd be gyeuros.

04:59:54 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: if mods are to be paid in any fashion, it ought to be bbet shares.

05:00:23 pete_dushenski: 1k shares per resolution or something

05:00:32 ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: a) why is that and b) out of whose piggy?

05:00:50 mircea_popescu: shares just means dilution. it's not necessarily a bad idea, use qntra experience.

05:02:09 pete_dushenski: ^

05:02:24 ben_vulpes: aha

05:03:02 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435683 <<< usg has "magistrate judges" ie, stalin's police "judicial powers" for this very purpose.

05:03:02 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 02:18:42; asciilifeform: 'I did fight things out in court. It just occurred in secret, and while a proper description would require the use of vulgarity, I'll summarize by saying I was railroaded. The length of time between when I received the PRTT order, and when I was found in contempt (ex parte) was about 5 weeks. For comparison the /median /time between filing and disposition of a civil contempt charge in federal court du

05:03:38 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435685 << except 27 trn doesn't begin to matter in this discussion.

05:03:38 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 02:20:52; asciilifeform: 'we are entitled to everyone's plain text data, and if Congress won't give it to us, we'll use our 27.1 billion dollar budget, and army of 100K lawyers to take it in court. Your tax dollars at work.'

05:03:45 ben_vulpes: bitbet under ddos?

05:04:27 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: bbet share payment also avoids the issue of mods dragging their heels in resolving a sticky situation, as per hour fees would. share payment also puts skin in the game and flat-rate payment incentives efficiency.

05:05:29 ben_vulpes: mhm.

05:06:23 mircea_popescu: qntra model really taught us a lot. only thing is... came years after original bitbet.

05:09:12 ben_vulpes: heh

05:09:16 ben_vulpes: "gotta dilute something!"

05:09:34 mircea_popescu: it's not entirely unwarranted. mods do contribute value.

05:10:04 mircea_popescu: dilution matching contribution is mere growth, quite healthy.

05:10:10 mircea_popescu: or so the theory goes, at any rate.

05:28:31 BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435755 << twas an edit of mine, my bad

05:28:31 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 04:57:49; mircea_popescu: jurov ftr, "specie" in english means gold bullion. it's unadvisable to use in the context you do.

05:29:40 BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435757 Also me, I needed to pick a pronoun and feminism'd it

05:29:40 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 04:59:01; mircea_popescu: jurov is the mario draghi "she" deliberate ?

05:30:47 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: could the digest be a tool for node operators to ensure access to miners?

05:31:00 ben_vulpes: s/tool/constraint

05:42:14 mircea_popescu: how do you mean ben_vulpes ?

05:45:02 ben_vulpes: if nonce demand is kept high enough, anyone operating a node that can produce digests has something of value to miners.

05:45:11 mircea_popescu: yes, that's the idea.

05:45:56 ben_vulpes: and if the two parties are engaged in commerce, at least there must be an open channel to those consuming the digests.

05:46:11 mircea_popescu: myeah.

05:46:21 ben_vulpes: a route around the sybils perhaps?

05:46:36 mircea_popescu: i don't credit the "sybils quam sybils" theory.

05:48:17 BingoBoingo: !up Alopex

05:48:20 BingoBoingo: !up pigeons

05:52:28 mircea_popescu: it;s nothing short of saying "the clouds must be painted on the firmament because they are seen and the parsimonious explanation of all thigns seen is painting".

05:52:52 mircea_popescu: clouds have a function beyond their perceptible form ; "sybils" means nothing other than the cartel.

06:06:56 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

06:07:00 gribble: Current Blocks: 403178 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 21 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 hours, 31 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

06:57:09 BingoBoingo: https://i.imgur.com/DfvMjID.gifv

06:57:10 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/21yEDCV )

06:57:14 BingoBoingo: !up tych0

08:20:37 BingoBoingo: !up qntranet

10:47:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00041975 = 4.7012 BTC [-] {2}

11:13:11 deedbot-: [fr.anco.is] BitBet receivership formal application and letter of intent - http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-formal-application-and-letter-of-intent/

11:15:07 davout: kakobrekla: ^

11:15:18 davout: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-formal-application-and-letter-of-intent/

11:15:19 assbot: BitBet receivership formal application and letter of intent | fr.anco.is ... ( http://bit.ly/1R82OmO )

11:15:19 gribble: The operation succeeded.

11:28:56 jurov: BingoBoingo: better make yourself an author if you do such extensive changes

11:31:31 BingoBoingo: jurov: Sorry, I've added a note http://qntra.net/2016/03/eu-marching-towards-helicopter-money-as-other-manipulations-are-exhausted/#comment-48935

11:31:32 assbot: EU Marching Towards "Helicopter Money" As Other Manipulations Are Exhausted | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/22oG0cX )

11:31:57 jurov: ok, ty

11:56:38 shinohai: https://dashtalk.org/threads/darkcoin-company-busted.8381/ <<< is that a little old lady in that pic?

11:56:39 assbot: Darkcoin.company BUSTED !! | DashTalk ... ( http://bit.ly/22oGxM2 )

12:07:46 BingoBoingo: http://www.overclockers.com.au/pic.php?pic=images/newspics/26apr13/4.jpg

12:07:50 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1XzVNiu )

12:13:45 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435750 we never had this.

12:13:45 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 04:55:17; mircea_popescu: a) eye-readable contract ; b) machine-verifiable signature ; c) that can also be verified by hand ; d) in the same item.

12:14:42 asciilifeform: ( and if it must be had, the text is liable to look like a chimera of the talmud and nazi telex !11)

12:15:32 shinohai: ;;ticker --market all

12:15:39 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 413.78, vol: 3292.33562821 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 414.281, vol: 5136.5319 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 413.47, vol: 9471.992610630001 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 420.2, vol: 1.68670123 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 417.492968, vol: 32362.02050000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 415.157, vol: 2359.4455159 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 417.5235, vol: 63.25511783 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

12:15:43 shinohai: ;;more

12:15:44 gribble: 416.1200874

12:18:20 deedbot-: [Qntra] Bitcoin Network Difficulty Up ~4.46 % - http://qntra.net/2016/03/bitcoin-network-difficulty-up-4-46/

12:19:32 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435752 << a good chunk of the retardation is a ~result~ of the clearsign thing.

12:19:32 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 04:55:51; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-03-2016#1435644 << yes, but the problerm needs fixing, not replacing with worse problem.

12:20:36 asciilifeform: also i would like to watch mp or anyone actually ~do~ the 'hand verify' thing.

12:21:21 BingoBoingo: More weather on the road to Forknarok https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7575

12:22:03 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435794 << ftr i utterly fail to grasp how he made this leap

12:22:03 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 05:52:52; mircea_popescu: clouds have a function beyond their perceptible form ; "sybils" means nothing other than the cartel.

12:27:46 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435816 << the other objectionable thing is how mircea_popescu 'jwz's 'eye-readable' to mean 'existing software, and particularly unix cat'

12:27:46 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 12:13:45; assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 04:55:17; mircea_popescu: a) eye-readable contract ; b) machine-verifiable signature ; c) that can also be verified by hand ; d) in the same item.

12:28:07 asciilifeform: which are pointedly ~not~ logically equivalent

12:30:04 asciilifeform: and yes, if you want hand-verify, you gotta have the talmud-style line checksums.

12:30:52 asciilifeform: (and exclude newlines from the hash entirely, and other demented things)

12:54:13 BingoBoingo: http://media.dumpert.nl/foto/f51a8fa1_IMG_1791.png.png

12:54:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RqE4oX )

13:00:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00041975 = 1.9309 BTC [-]

13:25:04 jurov: asciilifeform: if he is fine with serially connecting elements with wildly variable resistances to 300V, no wonder he's fine with many other interesting things :)

13:27:29 *: BingoBoingo always imagined low power colo working off of DC straight from batteries

13:37:06 BingoBoingo: Get power to batteries however, one it's in the batteries dice it up and feed to machines as appropriate

13:39:39 jurov: even batteries are advised not to be massively serially connected, you know

13:41:30 jurov: plus, high voltage DC is more dangerous to humans than AC, plus harder to extinguish arcs

13:42:40 fluffypony: yeah DC will kill you

13:42:44 fluffypony: AC will just annoy you

13:46:08 solrodar: mircea_popescu, kakobrekla: davout does indeed seem to be better qualified than me

13:46:39 solrodar: but before it gets written into a contract I want to question why we're presuming that bills are more senior than bettor funds

13:47:07 BingoBoingo: Also in Davout's favor is he parted out and closed a contentious property before after he acquired Instawallet and discovered it to be toxic. He's got experience dealing with the aggro.

13:48:43 BingoBoingo: <jurov> even batteries are advised not to be massively serially connected, you know << Well, I imagined massively parallel FeNi banks. linked to get target voltages. Abuse however just so long as you remember to water them.

13:49:11 BingoBoingo: And there's even automatic watering systems available for that part

13:50:36 BingoBoingo: In other news, today is closing arguments for Hulk Hogan v. Gawker

13:54:09 shinohai: http://boards.4chan.org/biz/thread/1145795/after-missing-the-eth-train-i-just-took-out-a <<< nice

13:54:11 assbot: /biz/ - After missing the Eth train, I just took out a $10 - Business & Finance - 4chan ... ( http://bit.ly/258IIlZ )

13:55:02 davout: solrodar: unless the liquidator bill is senior he has no guarantee to be paid, in which case...

13:55:17 solrodar: that one yes

13:55:44 solrodar: but why necessarily other ones?

13:57:59 mircea_popescu: davout yup saw pingback.

13:59:59 mircea_popescu: solrodar bills are senior because in general for the same general reason. you don't pay electricity, bankrupt or not, you can't have the lights on. receiver still has to work.

14:00:37 solrodar: there are no lights

14:00:41 solrodar: the site is dead

14:01:03 mircea_popescu: ...

14:01:19 solrodar: and the only bill in question is of course your bill for 17 BTC

14:01:27 mircea_popescu: "i just disproved a general consideration by my misinterpretation of a particular" you say ?

14:01:35 solrodar: if that is rejected or haircut, it doesn't impede the liquidator's work

14:02:03 mircea_popescu: you can't base your judgement about what to do with a category on the basis of what you know or "can imagine" in terms of examples from that category.

14:02:24 mircea_popescu: that's why black people aren't "naturally thieves" irrespective what black people you can personally summon to mind.

14:02:47 solrodar: so you're saying there's a general principle in liquidation that all claims by suppliers and employees are senior to all claims by customers?

14:03:59 mircea_popescu: by and large.

14:04:11 nubbins`: <+solrodar> but before it gets written into a contract I want to question why we're presuming that bills are more senior than bettor funds << i want to question why you used "we"

14:04:16 mircea_popescu: fiat practice is indeed vast and in time it has grown fragmented and oft contradictory.

14:07:10 solrodar: since when do you follow fiat practice?

14:07:37 mircea_popescu: if you ask "there's a general principle in liquidation" you are necessarily asking about fiat practice, there not being another practice in the field.

14:09:12 solrodar: ok, but it's obviously a principle you wish to adopt

14:10:10 solrodar: if the only argument is "receiver still has to work", then it only applies to claims the receiver must pay in order to do his work

14:10:25 BingoBoingo: solrodar: Since the reciever's aim is recovering the maximum value from where it can, ideally they pay the bills to not injure the brand anymore than it has been by ending up in recievership.

14:10:32 mircea_popescu: wow check out the darkcoin thing

14:10:51 BingoBoingo: ;;google site:qntra.net darkcoin

14:10:52 gribble: Darkcoin: Value Drops while going Open Source | Qntra: http://qntra.net/2014/10/darkcoin-value-drops-while-going-open-source/; Qntra | Reporting the Intersection of Bitcoin, Technology, and Politics ...: http://qntra.net/page/106/?action=prodinfo&cat_id=6&prod=10; Paxful Gets Desperate, Priced Out Of Bitcoin | Qntra: http://qntra.net/2015/12/paxful-gets-desperate/

14:11:17 solrodar: BingoBoingo: not paying customers injures the brand a lot more than not paying mircea_popescu

14:11:36 mircea_popescu: solrodar the receiver has the option to set aside bills anyway, so that's not much of a practical consideration.

14:11:57 solrodar: true, but I would suggest it not be written in stone at this stage

14:12:06 BingoBoingo: solrodar: Ideally everyone gets paid maximally. Bills and customers both are bounded liabilities.

14:12:19 mircea_popescu: seniority is principally important so as to give the receiver the option, not the obligation, to pay things NOW, rather than promise to pay after he pays someone else.

14:12:36 davout: solrodar: which is why i haven't written it in stone, in case you did not notice

14:12:42 mircea_popescu: this neatly matches the ability of suppliers to cut the spaghetti NOW as opposed to the customers' ability to basically whine moar.

14:13:03 solrodar: davout: "payment of the liabilities on a best-effort basis, ordered by priority (certified bills, bet winnings & refunds, shareholders)"

14:13:10 solrodar: I suppose that could be read as not being an ordered list

14:13:12 mircea_popescu: and in general this inept "mp said something ; i said something else because i'm just as much a X as mp" is the font of ineptitude.

14:13:30 mircea_popescu: you wanna argue against something i said, do yourself and especially your posterity the favour of coming with eighteen armored divisions.

14:13:40 mircea_popescu: of gold plated solid arguments.

14:13:59 davout: solrodar: well, how about you think of a bitcoin transaction fee as a certified bill? it is necessary to pay it for the receiver to be able to actually bettors for example

14:14:09 davout: *pay bettors

14:14:49 solrodar: I agree

14:15:11 solrodar: but as I said, if the only argument is "receiver still has to work", then it only applies to claims the receiver must pay in order to do his work

14:15:20 mircea_popescu: do you read what's being said ?

14:15:48 solrodar: yes, and I don't see where you responded to that point

14:15:54 mircea_popescu: motherfucker.

14:15:57 mircea_popescu: !down solrodar

14:16:02 mircea_popescu: pfff.

14:16:38 solrodar: I have only 0.2 BTC of outstanding bets, so this isn't really a conflict of interest for me

14:16:57 mircea_popescu: two things, read them outloud to yourself. 1. if A is a class senior to B, then receiver MAY NOT proceed to pay B until he has disposed of A entirely. therefore suppliers MUST be in A and cusomters in B, BECAUSE customers can do nothing to injure the bankrupt concern,. whereas the suppliers can.

14:17:14 mircea_popescu: this flows from the definition of the term supplier (comes before the company on the flow) and customer (comes after).

14:17:23 solrodar: who says all suppliers must be in the same class?

14:17:51 mircea_popescu: and 2. IF you want to argue against something i said, do yourself the favour and BRING VERY GOOD ARGUMENTS. because your own personal word will count for nothing much, and you'll just make a clown out of yourself.

14:19:35 *: mircea_popescu notes bitterly that the chinese ARE fucking prosecuting their own bfl, unlike the usg faggots.

14:19:45 mircea_popescu: and if i'm reading this correctly there may well be death sentences ?

14:19:46 PeterL: solrodar they didn't say all suppliers must be in the same class, the receiver has the option to classify suppliers as urgent/non-urgent

14:20:33 solrodar: yes, but if davout's list is read as an ordered list then it still says that all suppliers are senior to all bettors

14:20:34 PeterL: but in order to have that flexibility, suppliers as a class must be senior to customers as a class

14:20:45 solrodar: if he says it's not an ordered list then that's fine

14:21:10 solrodar: URGENT suppliers must be senior to customers

14:21:18 solrodar: who says all suppliers must be in the same class?

14:21:22 PeterL: you don't seem to grasp the must pay first/can pay first difference

14:21:46 deedbot-: [Daniel P. Barron] Free State Project Triggered - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/free-state-project-triggered/

14:22:44 PeterL: well, it is up to the receiver to classify things

14:23:35 solrodar: yes, so I'm simply saying that the receiver's contract should not presume any particular classification

14:24:28 solrodar: whereas davout's post does appear to do so

14:24:47 BingoBoingo: <solrodar> yes, so I'm simply saying that the receiver's contract should not presume any particular classification << The reciever may end up rejecting some claims by suppliers, but the MUST be *considered* first

14:25:53 solrodar: considered yes, and possibly then downgraded to be at the same level as bettors?

14:26:40 mircea_popescu: "if you didn't need to pay him as a supplier, fuck him". how's the receiver to justify this "downgrade" ?

14:27:26 solrodar: because you still haven't shown why a non-urgent supplier should take priority over a customer

14:27:34 solrodar: or why all suppliers are necessarily in the same class

14:27:35 mircea_popescu: but ftr it's slowly dawning on me just how god damned ~HARD~ it is to speak in the forum. all sorts of separations, between descriptive and prescriptive, between time ; between causes and effects, between roles and hierarchies... jesus god how does anyone even keep it straight.

14:28:17 solrodar: I deeply apologize

14:28:24 mircea_popescu: solrodar i am not entertaining your concepts of "non-urgent", and so i won't be showing anything about them.

14:28:57 mircea_popescu: they're not required by the model, and there's no indication they add justifiable complexity ; not to mention they're not even defined, or by all appearances definable.

14:29:19 mircea_popescu: and yes, I don't intend to follow fiat practice in THIS particular respect : that it's always willing to add complexity for the sake of satisfying fee-fees.

14:29:21 mircea_popescu: never, that.

14:29:47 solrodar: well, if the receiver has discretion to reject claims then he also should have discretion to determine the seniority of claims

14:29:51 BingoBoingo: solrodar: Are you familiar with the "mechanics lien"

14:29:59 solrodar: it can be as complex or as non-complex as he wishes

14:30:02 solrodar: BingoBoingo: yes

14:30:05 mircea_popescu: why not have discretion to also determine the count of bitcoin in existence, while at it.

14:30:52 solrodar: BingoBoingo: who are you suggesting has one in this case?

14:31:09 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo is this getting people to read up on the complex topic of patrimonial dispositions or prior art ?

14:31:58 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Both

14:32:09 mircea_popescu: pretty cool.

14:33:04 BingoBoingo: solrodar: I'm suggesting it as a rabbit hole to read moar on to understand how complex the matter of claims is, not strictly legally but morally

14:33:14 mircea_popescu: you mean equitably.

14:33:29 mircea_popescu: hence "court of equity".

14:34:09 BingoBoingo: Aha

14:34:24 mircea_popescu: lol davout while i'm the first friend of humor, or so i like to think, that two weeks tm can't stand there. it can readily be interpreted to mean forever, and that just can't be.

14:34:28 BingoBoingo: that is an actual moral question

14:34:40 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo what's your definition of "moral" here ?

14:34:58 BingoBoingo: morality is the just conduct of business

14:35:13 mircea_popescu: rules of conduct are called broadly ethics.

14:35:27 BingoBoingo: Sure

14:36:00 mircea_popescu: how to act correctly (ethics) ; how to satisfy the will of gods (morals) ; how to run your business (equity).

14:36:22 solrodar: BingoBoingo: indeed it is complex, and so if bettors have to take a haircut because mircea_popescu is senior, then that's fine, as long as there's a justification for it

14:36:35 solrodar: "mircea_popescu says so, and you're an idiot" is not a justification

14:36:38 BingoBoingo: solrodar: I'm not necessarily suggesting that

14:36:41 mircea_popescu: actually, yes, it is.

14:37:22 mircea_popescu: before we go back to http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-08-2014#792159

14:37:22 assbot: Logged on 12-08-2014 02:20:21; TimSwanson: That's not how debates work

14:37:32 *: danielpbarron nods

14:38:01 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Until I finish a religious tract Imma just treat satisfying the will of the gods as alternately a question of conduct and business

14:38:11 mircea_popescu: aite then.

14:38:28 mircea_popescu: methinks this may make you a jew.

14:39:04 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well If I really am a sunni I gotta take from the Jews and the Christians, because that's how history works

14:39:13 mircea_popescu: that's a point.

14:40:14 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Speaking of this topic, can you spin up a justification of Obesity being a Cardinal sin as if Man is created in God's image defiling oneself with obesity is akin to defiling God?

14:40:28 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Or do I need a different species of scholarship for that

14:40:35 mircea_popescu: i must say i'm pretty impressed with this darkcoin thing and with the chinese govt generally. a) no idiotic derpage a la "bitlicense" ; b) actually prosecute scammers.

14:40:43 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo gluttony.

14:40:57 mircea_popescu: it is a cardinal sin already, no spinning needed.

14:41:14 PeterL: BingoBoingo I think you nailed it, no more argument needed to vilify obeasts

14:41:15 danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, indeed obesity leads to hell

14:41:28 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron and what if they can't fit down the chute ?

14:41:31 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: If remixing things might as well escalate its cardinality

14:41:31 danielpbarron: shows lack of self-control which The Bible requires of the saved

14:41:44 danielpbarron: the path to destruction is broad

14:41:50 PeterL: mircea_popescu then slice them into smaller pieces?

14:42:18 mircea_popescu: i always thought "the path to destruction is broad" just gave measure of the argot prescience of the king james bible and it really means "the path to destruction is woman".

14:42:26 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> danielpbarron and what if they can't fit down the chute ? << Plop them on top of a chute and wait for the fold mold to liquefy them

14:42:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12400 @ 0.00042003 = 5.2084 BTC [+]

14:43:05 BingoBoingo: eternity is a long time

14:43:36 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435825 << you ever saw someone do the verify thing with old style signatures ?

14:43:36 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 12:20:36; asciilifeform: also i would like to watch mp or anyone actually ~do~ the 'hand verify' thing.

14:43:41 danielpbarron: Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

14:43:49 mircea_popescu: i had the pleasure of a coupla of such nonsense back in the day.

14:44:59 mircea_popescu: (for the curious, the way private sealed writs work in fiat court is, the presumed author is confronted with them. if he accepts them all is fine, if however he repudiates them the circus starts, because the case forks into a sub-case about whether the item is genuine or not, gotta have witnesses as to the writ, experts as to the writ, you can be there a month with the piece of paper.)

14:45:16 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Also pls to not link my blog as my slave name.

14:46:05 mircea_popescu: (and yes in that month i can do the fucking rsa exponentiation on paper three times over.)

14:46:21 danielpbarron: you know your name is on the listing agreement for qntra right?

14:46:33 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Sure, as a legacy thing

14:46:41 mircea_popescu: as a legacy ?!

14:46:49 mircea_popescu: you gonna get yourself a pinoy sunni name son ?

14:46:52 danielpbarron: well i'd rather not list your blog at all if the requirement is to not use your name

14:46:53 BingoBoingo: I don't mind it being used where necessary, but it is still a slave name

14:47:03 danielpbarron: is it not the name your parents gave you/

14:47:28 BingoBoingo: That my parents gave me and the fiat gang stole the title to

14:47:38 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> you gonna get yourself a pinoy sunni name son ? << Maybe

14:47:46 danielpbarron: you should honor your parents, regardless of who else stole whatever

14:47:48 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you know he has a point tho, just because someone stole or didn't stole it, what's that to you ?

14:48:06 PeterL: when you meet a girl at the bar, do you introduce yourself "Hi, I'm BingoBoingo"?

14:48:10 BingoBoingo: ;;google "your name is toby"

14:48:11 gribble: Your name is TOBY! What's your name? - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CpJpGF8lS8; Whats your Name "Kunta Kinte" - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMPFQo5V-lA; Kunta Kinte - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunta_Kinte

14:48:27 BingoBoingo: <PeterL> when you meet a girl at the bar, do you introduce yourself "Hi, I'm BingoBoingo"? << It's an occasion to use the legacy identfier

14:48:39 mircea_popescu: PeterL i knew a guy who would introduce himself to half drunk british roses as "hi, my name's pizda ma-tii!"

14:49:09 mircea_popescu: sort-of romanian mark hunt.

14:49:14 BingoBoingo: But Back when I did the bar thing I'd use different names at each bar generally

14:50:08 mircea_popescu: "hi, i'm papalexandrorghios bingoboingoski"

14:50:27 BingoBoingo: lol

14:50:38 mircea_popescu: "honey, if you can say that outloud you're not drunk enough."

14:51:29 PeterL: Me nephew has to say his name several times before any new acquaintances get it, my brother named him Tlazohtlalia

14:52:30 asciilifeform: PeterL is an aztec ?!

14:52:34 PeterL: yup

14:52:43 *: BingoBoingo always though NOT using aliases at the bar was inviting unnecessary risk

14:52:53 PeterL: (my sis-in-law is of Aztec heritage)

14:53:08 mircea_popescu: so what's his mates call him ? tla ?

14:53:21 PeterL: Tlazoh

14:53:39 PeterL: sounds kindla like "klaw-zoe"

14:53:50 BingoBoingo: See, lazlo is a solid bar alias

14:54:29 asciilifeform: tlocelot !

14:54:33 mircea_popescu: ha. don't you need a moustache to legally wear that name ?

14:54:54 BingoBoingo: lol

14:55:15 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i don't use aliases even in promiscuity. everyone's "vampyre lord" and "celeste" and what the fuck not, i'm mircea popescu

14:55:27 mircea_popescu: "wait, THAT IS YOUR REAL NAME?!?!?!" "yeah".

14:56:08 BingoBoingo: But when you drink in the manner I am inclined to you gotta have something you can pronounce

14:56:18 BingoBoingo: two syllables is too many

14:56:41 mircea_popescu: at least if they had the fucking decency to be funny about it, lord derp and hurrserl and shit. but no, "chocolate".

14:57:39 jurov: some germans insist to call me "georg" even without any substances involved. the original is apparently too hard

14:57:58 BingoBoingo: Also the consonants have to be able to survive a prnounced slur

14:58:24 PeterL: asciilifeform I just realized I answered your question wrong, I am not aztec, I'm good old English-American. My brother married into Aztec.

14:59:03 mircea_popescu: jurov i always wondered where it comes from.

14:59:43 mircea_popescu: (seems basically a slavonic version of george anyway)

14:59:50 jurov: yes it's that

15:00:03 mircea_popescu: well then not terribly off.

15:02:23 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435975 << non-cryptographic signatures are really 99+% 'promise' and precious little protocol.

15:02:23 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 14:43:36; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435825 << you ever saw someone do the verify thing with old style signatures ?

15:02:41 asciilifeform: the 'prima facie' thing usually carries, afaik.

15:02:44 mircea_popescu: just like everything else pre technology.

15:02:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only in us courts that got very lazy meanwhile.

15:02:59 asciilifeform: (and when it doesn't, result has little to do with finding of fact and much to do with game-theoretical game of 'chicken')

15:03:06 jurov: was a while to get used to it. i wonder how was BingoBoingo keeping track of his nickname when it was different every time

15:03:22 mircea_popescu: i suspect through a massive dose of not giving a shit.

15:03:43 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo et al : making up new name for yerself every morning is crummy tradecraft.

15:03:52 asciilifeform: ever heard of, e.g., 'legend', etc.

15:04:53 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435981 << i will not say that this is impossible, but i would actually like to watch somebody do it

15:04:53 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 14:46:05; mircea_popescu: (and yes in that month i can do the fucking rsa exponentiation on paper three times over.)

15:05:00 asciilifeform: accurately.

15:05:21 mircea_popescu: if i ever open a brothel here, we'll have a rsa night.

15:05:37 mircea_popescu: naked sluts doing hard maths, what more can you ask of art.

15:06:04 jurov: asciilifeform: as usual, your lawyer will just crudely reimplement rsa in excel

15:06:20 asciilifeform: !s mental rsa

15:06:21 assbot: 5 results for 'mental rsa' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=mental+rsa

15:06:27 mircea_popescu: better chance with the brothel.

15:06:45 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435987 << would somebody explain this to me

15:06:45 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 14:46:53; BingoBoingo: I don't mind it being used where necessary, but it is still a slave name

15:07:43 jurov: it's simple, he transcended the slavery by referring to himself by his wot nick

15:08:13 asciilifeform: what is being hidden, and from whom? e.g., everyone i've worked, done business with, etc. since i had a www, knew about it

15:08:42 asciilifeform: this not only was not a problem, but arguably helped me to avoid becoming embroiled with various folks who were up to no good

15:09:37 jurov: in other news, https://media.giphy.com/media/Ry8vYUztNpRfy/giphy.gif

15:09:45 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1SYhg5w )

15:09:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think his plan to fight some derps doing black magic is not to squarely ignore them, but to DO THINGS to anti-magic their magic.

15:10:03 mircea_popescu: which is perhaps not fully considered a plan.

15:17:54 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435837 << student exercise - prove that the 10 (usa) or 20 (eu) pogo garland will necessarily explode if they all enter cpu halt mode.

15:17:54 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 13:25:04; jurov: asciilifeform: if he is fine with serially connecting elements with wildly variable resistances to 300V, no wonder he's fine with many other interesting things :)

15:18:55 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435838 << classical telco. but the batteries were IN PARALLEL

15:18:55 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 13:27:29; *: BingoBoingo always imagined low power colo working off of DC straight from batteries

15:19:13 mircea_popescu: eh for crying out loud, what is with this!

15:19:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seriously, you can't protect a circuit from overvoltage, overcurrent and everything else ?

15:19:46 mircea_popescu: "oh noes, the car will run into a wall!11"

15:19:53 mircea_popescu: da fuck already.

15:20:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure as hell you can

15:20:04 mircea_popescu: so then what ?

15:20:05 asciilifeform: it is called... regulated dc power supply

15:20:12 asciilifeform: per box.

15:20:18 mircea_popescu: sigh.

15:20:40 mircea_popescu: this is even lulzier than the whole "can't move out of dc" thing.

15:20:46 mircea_popescu: because this apparently is... can't move TO dc.

15:20:54 trinque: !b2

15:20:58 trinque: d'aw

15:21:00 mircea_popescu: MUST USE CHINEZE BRIX

15:21:05 asciilifeform: no.

15:21:09 asciilifeform: but must use vregs.

15:21:12 mircea_popescu: part and parcel of our attempts to you know, get out of hardware dependency of chinese\

15:21:16 mircea_popescu: MUST USE THEIR BRIX!!11

15:21:26 asciilifeform: and not rely on neigbouring boxes to drop your voltage, wtf

15:21:40 mircea_popescu: "i want someone to make me a si foundry and i'll strangle anyone who even tries to make a power source!"

15:22:06 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you recall your article about african huts ?

15:22:15 mircea_popescu: not as such ? :/

15:22:22 asciilifeform: the one about how the monkeys never invented architecture in the sense of how-to-make-house-stand-up

15:22:39 mircea_popescu: aha ?

15:23:05 asciilifeform: it was more interesting even, it was about how they do not even see it as a thing

15:23:22 asciilifeform: as in, 'your house is really same as my pile of straw, it must be, there is nothing else in the world'

15:23:34 mircea_popescu: go on ?

15:25:24 asciilifeform: well series circuit with loads that gotta get 5% of specced voltage is nutso.

15:25:51 asciilifeform: and there is no reason to take my word for it, go, try.

15:25:59 asciilifeform: i even brought you some pogos iirc.

15:26:24 asciilifeform: take wire cutters, rip a diode bridge out of that argentinian shit pc from article, and have it..

15:26:37 asciilifeform: a pair of wire cutters would suffice.

15:27:14 mircea_popescu: i've been trying to follow this with the huts etc but it doesn't coallesce into a something.

15:27:42 asciilifeform: it coalesces into there being arts mircea_popescu is - apparently - innocent of

15:27:45 asciilifeform: but nevertheless exist.

15:27:54 mircea_popescu: anyway, would it make you happier if he puts a transformer in between, takes it from 300 V 1 A to 4.5 V 60 A and then parallels that ?

15:28:18 mircea_popescu: i guess he'll need to use thicker wires, but hey, if it'll make your impalement sense happy why not.

15:29:33 mircea_popescu: the ~only point i made prior to the whole "way things are done!11" explosion was, that for the price of buying extension cords for all the shitty little bricks he can make a central power source himself.

15:29:57 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435940 <<< fair'nuff

15:29:57 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 14:34:24; mircea_popescu: lol davout while i'm the first friend of humor, or so i like to think, that two weeks tm can't stand there. it can readily be interpreted to mean forever, and that just can't be.

15:30:00 mircea_popescu: decentralization being not the answer, but the problem, in many applications. as seen here.

15:32:57 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a correct way to 'de-chink' the pogo power source might be, e.g., to connect them all - in parallel - to old soviet car battery charger.

15:33:03 asciilifeform: this would work for hundred years.

15:33:20 asciilifeform: even comes with thick cable.

15:34:20 asciilifeform: i have a massive dc supply (of, believe or not, ~british!~ circa '70s make) at my house, for this purpose.

15:37:38 PeterL: maybe it is just my lack of electrical engineering knowledge, but it sounds like mircea_popescu and asciilifeform are saying to do the same thing, but won't agree with each other?

15:42:00 asciilifeform: PeterL: nope.

15:42:26 asciilifeform: PeterL: he suggested (i still can't tell if seriously!) to plug them in ~series~, like christmas lights, to a high voltage line.

15:43:11 asciilifeform: so as to avoid the need for a) dozens of 'wall warts' or b) a high current dc power supply.

15:54:47 jurov: actually, that would neatly solve the mystery of cascading failure of his raid setup

15:55:56 jurov: if he had the drives powered in that way

15:57:00 asciilifeform: jurov: i can't really picture him wiring up drives with his own hands, tho

15:57:42 jurov: no, he just asked the slaves to, like he hih do danielpbarron

15:57:48 jurov: *did ho

15:57:56 jurov: eh damn

15:58:12 asciilifeform: waiwut

15:58:56 BingoBoingo: <jurov> was a while to get used to it. i wonder how was BingoBoingo keeping track of his nickname when it was different every time << nicknames attach to bars. If bar isn't frequented enough "hey you" workz

15:59:44 jurov: asciilifeform: still talked in hypotheticals, i have no indication that actually happened

16:00:16 jurov: but it's very likely that in absence of other opinions, dpb would actually try it

16:01:22 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform i think his plan to fight some derps doing black magic is not to squarely ignore them, but to DO THINGS to anti-magic their magic. << Oh it's not a plan. It's noise

16:01:28 BingoBoingo: for aesthetics

16:52:36 mircea_popescu: PeterL> maybe it is just my lack of electrical engineering knowledge, but it sounds like mircea_popescu and asciilifeform are saying to do the same thing, but won't agree with each other? << you have nfi how often this happens.

16:52:58 mircea_popescu: jurov> actually, that would neatly solve the mystery of cascading failure of his raid setup << fu georg!

16:59:39 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> PeterL: he suggested (i still can't tell if seriously!) to plug them in ~series~ << no dude. he said "see if your isp is willing to give you a c block / upgrade your connection. buy a coupla bridges of 32 or 64, make a high voltage rectifier thingee, and power a bunch of boxes" then you went all crazy about how series omaygerd! and i spent the rest of the interval poking fun at it. this is an exact para

16:59:39 mircea_popescu: llel of how mp said "^ for the record, i've been divesting, if slowly." and you spent two days going on about 0 value bitcoin, then the interval hence being butthurt that there's no 0 value bitcoin.

16:59:39 mircea_popescu: I'm not necessarily against taking mp's lines and looking in all the folds carefully ; but it's a little silly to do this run off with what i think an angle might have been, damn everything else.

16:59:41 mircea_popescu: moderation in all things eh.

17:01:08 mircea_popescu: uncharitably i might also observe that other than "i say so!" "it's how it's done" "reddit would agree", relatively little actual arguments were brought, which is why the task of poking fun was so easy/the experience so frustrating.

17:01:14 asciilifeform: l0lzies

17:02:32 mircea_popescu: to summarize said argument attempts : line 1. "high voltage is dangerous" "mkay, throw out your tv" ; line 2 : "you will have to protect the line" "yes you will" ; line 3 : "this was done historically" "yes it was".

17:05:13 BingoBoingo: !up nh

17:05:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you are missing the key piece

17:05:32 asciilifeform: where you are relying on adjacent loads in aggregate to actually regulate your v

17:05:40 mircea_popescu: you don't HAVE to be tho.

17:05:45 asciilifeform: this did not even work well for motherfucking arc lights in 1880

17:05:47 mircea_popescu: you might be, i guess.

17:06:23 mircea_popescu: in parallel you're relying on same loads to regulate your... current.

17:06:25 asciilifeform: one of the reason we have the profusion of bulky chinese wall warts, etc. is the extreme sensitivity of semiconductor to supply v

17:06:26 mircea_popescu: big whoop.

17:06:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: NOBODY REGULATES CURRENT

17:06:37 asciilifeform: wtf

17:06:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and you know this for a fact ? maybe the profusion is just because people like encapsulated things.

17:06:51 asciilifeform: omfg

17:07:00 asciilifeform: i have no wordz.

17:07:06 mircea_popescu: must you scream ?

17:07:10 asciilifeform: aha!

17:07:14 asciilifeform: mmmmmggmgmg

17:07:17 mircea_popescu: lol.

17:07:49 mircea_popescu: tell me this : if you have two 1 ohm items in parallel, at 1 volt ea, what current flows through the main ??

17:10:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: adds up to 1/2 ohm load res

17:10:20 asciilifeform: so 2a

17:10:22 asciilifeform: why ?

17:10:30 mircea_popescu: win. and if i add a third, what happens to the current ?

17:11:00 mircea_popescu: don't tell me it upregulates to 3a i might fall over.

17:11:45 asciilifeform: regulates?!!!!!

17:11:58 mircea_popescu: lol. I SEE WHAT WAS IMPORTANT!!1

17:12:15 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when you plug in one toaster into your mains, and then another, and then a third, how many times the current ?

17:12:26 asciilifeform: what in this joke am in not grasping ?

17:12:33 mircea_popescu: i dunno.

17:12:46 asciilifeform: yes, moar load, moar current, newz at 11!

17:12:46 mircea_popescu: anyway, methinks this horse is beaten through.

17:13:21 BingoBoingo: Screw it, upregulates to 160A because it also has to kickstart the flywheel

17:14:00 mircea_popescu: regularly.

17:14:59 PeterL: AC runs motor which spins flywheel which pwers homopolar generator giving DC current

17:15:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform speaking of plugging into mains, you know that if you bought a bunch of power strips and powered your entire house out of the same socket it'd eventually a) start a fire ; b) pop the fuse ; c) all of the above ?

17:15:14 mircea_popescu: seems pretty dangerous this could happen and also should not be possibru!

17:16:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how many amps to put on a single breaker is typically not 'rocket surgery' and printed thereupon

17:16:30 asciilifeform: (yes this does not help some folks...)

17:17:38 asciilifeform: in usa, typical residential mains socket (and its associated wire) is rated for 15a.

17:17:49 asciilifeform: in commercial bldg - 20, sometimes 30.

17:17:54 asciilifeform: i have nfi re eu.

17:18:41 asciilifeform: and less so even re: no es pais pobre.

17:19:42 mircea_popescu: aha.

17:20:12 mircea_popescu: but i had no idea that things could pop if you use parallel! or that you could possibly need a breaker! or things.

17:20:21 mircea_popescu: not like it's cereal amirite ?

17:22:03 mircea_popescu: actually speaking of dc motors, i wonder if you could get a hamster to wheel-power a pogo.

17:22:25 mircea_popescu: what do the things actually draw, half a W or something ?

17:22:30 PeterL: how much power does pogo take?

17:22:42 asciilifeform: PeterL: <10W without disk

17:22:49 mircea_popescu: o then nm.

17:23:07 asciilifeform: measure it yerself, this is trivial

17:23:23 mircea_popescu: i had but apparently lost a degree of magnitude on the way.

17:23:31 asciilifeform: happenz!

17:23:41 PeterL: use some exercicles to power it, for obeasts to put their fat to work?

17:24:03 asciilifeform: or use a wick.

17:24:06 mircea_popescu: would make a pretty great blog topic, you know ? for the numerous bloggers among us constantly looking for stuff to feed the woodchipper with.

17:24:14 asciilifeform: (anyone recall the ancient persian execution method, with fat wicks?!)

17:24:20 mircea_popescu: prolly instafamous on various social media turds, too.

17:24:27 mircea_popescu: "here's me exercycling to power my blog"

17:24:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc this is in herodotus?

17:24:44 asciilifeform: or maybe not

17:24:46 asciilifeform: hm

17:24:48 mircea_popescu: i think they were gilding things with potatoes

17:24:56 mircea_popescu: (IN SERIES!)

17:26:09 mircea_popescu: i guess i'm lucky to be in an engineering-internet. were i in a scholarly-internet it'd be all "mp, potato comes from new world therefore everything is invalid!"

17:26:55 asciilifeform: i thought this was known to all?

17:26:57 asciilifeform: potatl!

17:27:35 mircea_popescu: mno, the origins are batata and papa (still used as originally, to distinguish sweet and plain varieties, here)

17:27:37 asciilifeform: and the crackpot archaeological thing re gilding concerned egyptians, not persians

17:27:43 mircea_popescu: no such wonder as potatl.

17:28:10 asciilifeform: and obviously not potato but mineral battery (which is supposed to have been found, in some suggestive fragment, according to aficionados)

17:28:23 mircea_popescu: aha.

17:29:05 asciilifeform: no potatl ?! the aztec nationalists lied !??!111

17:29:24 asciilifeform: what next, no severed head basketball ?!111

17:29:30 mircea_popescu: the spanish say it's from taino.

17:31:04 asciilifeform: hm.

17:40:48 phf: seems like we just need different signing modes, one of them being, "usenet text" or somesuch, ignores repeat whitespace, only recognizes alphanum and top row symbols, signature in the form, "in the year of our republic such and such i honorable citizen with these two primes which are my identity and my blood indicate the validity of the above text, [primes] [signature ciphertext]"

17:42:08 phf: can then manually verify by doing hand rsa. primes and ciphertext are base 10 for human convenience

17:43:18 phf: other signing method is a microdot pattern, you know, to cover all the bases

17:44:50 asciilifeform: l0l

18:11:44 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435731 < not at all - i think there is some merit in the argument in the sense that bitbet will hardly survive the upset its going through now (which is actually devaluating the asset to be liquidated)

18:11:44 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 04:21:00; ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432214 << mircea_popescu, kakobrekla: this was all very rude and uncalled for, my apologies

18:13:18 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1545

18:13:20 assbot: Loper OS » Vectored Signatures, or the Elements of a Possible V-Algebra. ... ( http://bit.ly/1pQWk4X )

18:13:20 gribble: The operation succeeded.

18:16:52 phf: oh my a fresh loper post!

18:17:05 asciilifeform: l0l

18:17:10 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435802 < generally in favour - perhaps the 'actual assets' need a more tight spec?

18:17:10 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 11:13:11; deedbot-: [fr.anco.is] BitBet receivership formal application and letter of intent - http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-formal-application-and-letter-of-intent/

18:17:21 kakobrekla: davout ^^

18:23:36 *: asciilifeform prepares a bucket for mircea_popescu to barf into after he reads the 'algebra' piece.

18:27:30 trinque: feeds list

18:27:34 trinque: deedbot-: feeds list

18:27:34 deedbot-: Feeds:

18:27:35 deedbot-: 1. http://fraudsters.com/feed/rss/

18:27:35 deedbot-: 2. http://qntra.net/feed/

18:27:36 deedbot-: 3. http://www.contravex.com/feed/rss

18:27:36 deedbot-: 4. http://nosuchlabs.com/rss

18:27:37 deedbot-: 5. https://bitbet.us/rss/betsbetsbig/

18:27:37 deedbot-: 6. http://explo.yt/feed/rss2

18:27:38 deedbot-: 7. http://fr.anco.is/feed/

18:27:39 deedbot-: 8. http://www.btcalpha.com/feed/

18:27:39 deedbot-: 9. http://cascadianhacker.com/index.xml

18:27:40 deedbot-: 10. http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/feed/

18:27:40 deedbot-: 11. http://www.dianacoman.com/feed/

18:27:41 deedbot-: 12. http://danielpbarron.com/feed/

18:29:39 trinque: deedbot-: feeds add http://www.loper-os.org/?feed=rss2

18:29:41 assbot: Loper OS ... ( http://bit.ly/1pQYG3Q )

18:29:41 deedbot-: http://www.loper-os.org/?feed=rss2 added.

18:30:48 deedbot-: [Loper OS] Practical Blockchain Telegraphy. - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1490

18:30:49 deedbot-: [Loper OS] Phuctor Broke Several RSA Keys. - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1504

18:30:49 deedbot-: [Loper OS] The Phuctored and the Phucked - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1526

18:30:50 deedbot-: [Loper OS] MPI sans the mud. - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1533

18:30:50 deedbot-: [Loper OS] Yes, you can still get these. - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1539

18:30:51 deedbot-: [Loper OS] Vectored Signatures, or the Elements of a Possible V-Algebra. - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1545

18:31:50 asciilifeform: l0l

18:37:12 trinque: Not only are there times when one would like to seal a payload with a caveat of one kind or another, but presently we have no means of conveying disapproval – other than by refraining from sealing. << check it out, a wrath bit

18:40:21 phf: geek code for vpatches

18:54:33 mod6: ummm

18:54:41 mod6: this seal vector thing is pretty cool.

18:56:27 PeterL: how would v resolve patches with both "trust" signature by one party and "distrust" from another party? I suppose that would be another knob to turn in v settings?

18:58:30 mod6: not sure yet.

18:59:36 mod6: anyway, interesting concept.

19:20:16 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436249 << this is not really intended to function on its own, beyond 'only press +trust-sealed patches'

19:20:16 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 18:56:27; PeterL: how would v resolve patches with both "trust" signature by one party and "distrust" from another party? I suppose that would be another knob to turn in v settings?

19:21:12 asciilifeform: but rather it is is more for scenarios that may arise in the dark future, when, say, it becomes necessary to purge material from a disgraced lord, and somehow not burn the world down in a chain reaction while so doing

19:21:45 asciilifeform: but the gedankenexperiment of course offers no simple answer to this. just a possible component of one.

19:23:35 asciilifeform: my internal emulated mircea_popescu has actually convinced me that this whole thing is probably a nonstarter.

19:24:00 asciilifeform: and he is rarely mistaken.

19:24:16 PeterL: why does alf-mp not like it?

19:24:37 asciilifeform: because, in brief, 'out of band'

19:24:47 asciilifeform: and 'meta'

19:25:06 asciilifeform: and 'mechanizing that which must remain human'

19:32:52 asciilifeform: the problem i was trying to solve is that it remains painfully underspecified exactly ~what is communicated by the act of sealing~

19:33:14 asciilifeform: this has been itching in my head ever since the 'manual gardening' and 'regrind' thread

19:34:15 asciilifeform: in particular, i believe that satoshi's turd is an abomination and is barely fit for any use at all, and ought to be discarded as soon as a politically reliable alternative exists - but there is no way to infer this from what patches i have signed.

19:34:52 asciilifeform: nor any way to convey doubt about meaning or provenance, other than human-readable commentary

19:35:55 asciilifeform: !s sirens silence

19:35:56 assbot: 2 results for 'sirens silence' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=sirens+silence

19:36:02 asciilifeform: and that.

19:36:54 asciilifeform: and yes, internal-mp says 'stop trying to finesse the basic use case of the forum, don't take the rifle fishing'

19:37:50 PeterL: one byte commentary is easier to package with payload, rather than trying to reference commentary elsewhere

19:41:32 asciilifeform: understand, i was looking for ~the~ decomposition of the hypothetical vector.

19:41:55 asciilifeform: if it is not obvious that this is the only meaninngful decomposition (and it thus far is ~not~ to me!) than the gedankenexperiment fails.

19:59:21 asciilifeform: my internal mp also says 'just because you have a pistol which knows how to fire bullets at people you don't like, it does not follow that there must also exist an antipistol which sucks out bullets from people you like'

19:59:38 asciilifeform: he also says 'intellectualizing is evil, fuck a turnip today for good health'

20:15:00 mod6: interesting thought tho

20:30:25 trinque: asciilifeform │ he also says 'intellectualizing is evil, fuck a turnip today for good health' << l0l

21:17:24 mircea_popescu: i've just finished rewiring this set of xmas lights to work in parallel

21:17:36 mircea_popescu: i already am feeling the blessings of engineeringshnu upon my humble abode.

21:18:58 mircea_popescu: did you know leds are actually digital equipments ?

21:20:11 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436207 << is it me or is phf slowly catching up on republican humor

21:20:11 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 17:43:18; phf: other signing method is a microdot pattern, you know, to cover all the bases

21:20:58 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436209 << the other view being that proving that we can do something no one else can or could do will on the contrary, make this asset as well as all other assets more valuable.

21:20:58 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 18:11:44; kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1435731 < not at all - i think there is some merit in the argument in the sense that bitbet will hardly survive the upset its going through now (which is actually devaluating the asset to be liquidated)

21:21:14 mircea_popescu: it won't make specific forms of derpage tolerable going forward, also, but there was no provision to protect that stuff anyway.

21:24:35 mircea_popescu: "The latter act conveys very little useful information, and no permanent sealed record remains of the effort taken to actually understand the patch. This is a Bad Thing" << the thing with this asciilifeform is that on the surface i feel very moved by the notion ; but upon examination it seems to devolve into a sort of enumerating badness ?

21:25:31 mircea_popescu: but the vector is interesting.

21:29:18 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436219 << not at all, i think it's a step in the right direction. i think it also needs more thinking/discussion, but anyway.

21:29:18 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 18:23:36; *: asciilifeform prepares a bucket for mircea_popescu to barf into after he reads the 'algebra' piece.

21:34:13 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436264 << really the problem is that it adds unwarranted complexity. so now we have more bits, yay. do they do anything ? notrly. well if you're going to hire a fortune teller, hire the cheapest not the best. but this aside - the problem you raise is very much a problem, and altogether this thing will have to be worked on moar.

21:34:13 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 19:34:15; asciilifeform: in particular, i believe that satoshi's turd is an abomination and is barely fit for any use at all, and ought to be discarded as soon as a politically reliable alternative exists - but there is no way to infer this from what patches i have signed.

21:36:31 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436273 << your internal mp is actually, after years of practice, getting pretty good.

21:36:31 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 19:59:21; asciilifeform: my internal mp also says 'just because you have a pistol which knows how to fire bullets at people you don't like, it does not follow that there must also exist an antipistol which sucks out bullets from people you like'

21:40:16 asciilifeform: i change his oil and polish gears every day !

21:40:19 asciilifeform: he'd better be good.

21:42:16 mircea_popescu: lol

21:43:53 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436279 << recent units are actually ~addressable~

21:43:53 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 21:18:58; mircea_popescu: did you know leds are actually digital equipments ?

21:44:40 mircea_popescu: next they'll be able to ddos.

21:44:42 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436285 << enumerating ~belief~

21:44:42 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 21:24:35; mircea_popescu: "The latter act conveys very little useful information, and no permanent sealed record remains of the effort taken to actually understand the patch. This is a Bad Thing" << the thing with this asciilifeform is that on the surface i feel very moved by the notion ; but upon examination it seems to devolve into a sort of enumerating badness ?

21:45:04 mircea_popescu: it is isn't it.

21:45:12 asciilifeform: aha.

21:45:21 mircea_popescu: the totality of thoughts thought is a legitimate application of pen to paper, is it not.

21:45:26 asciilifeform: so no protocol is claimed, it is explicitly a promise.

21:45:31 asciilifeform: but the application calls for it imho.

21:45:33 mircea_popescu: be they what they may be, they are what they are and so it goes.

21:46:21 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436287 << the thing is not meant to be adopted as is (for one thing, there is no ready orifice for it to climb into atm)

21:46:21 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 21:29:18; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436219 << not at all, i think it's a step in the right direction. i think it also needs more thinking/discussion, but anyway.

21:46:40 *: mircea_popescu intends to allow some dust to settle on this.

21:46:49 mircea_popescu: hey, it works to discern wine, why not here.

21:47:00 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436289 << originally when i wrote this down some months ago on paper i had a very 'cheap fortuneteller', 4 bits

21:47:00 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2016 21:34:13; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-03-2016#1436264 << really the problem is that it adds unwarranted complexity. so now we have more bits, yay. do they do anything ? notrly. well if you're going to hire a fortune teller, hire the cheapest not the best. but this aside - the problem you raise is very much a problem, and altogether this thing will have to be worked on moar.

21:47:27 asciilifeform: at any rate all 'v' aficionados are encouraged to read, and think.

21:47:31 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform : 0, 1, inf. if not one bit, then why not make headers, in ascii ?

21:47:53 mircea_popescu: #This thing is made by me and it sucks but doesn't lie.

21:48:16 asciilifeform: well, i originally wanted to turn it into a prime and embed as exponent !

21:48:24 mircea_popescu: #This thing is made by drepper, and while it doesn't per se suck, it very likely lies.

21:48:46 asciilifeform: the other thing is that compactness forces one to think about the essentials.

21:49:04 mircea_popescu: to date every experiment in forcing people to think has resulted in broken tools.

21:49:05 asciilifeform: the set of things that usefully belong in there is very, very finite.

21:49:09 mircea_popescu: you know the joke with the police station ?

21:49:12 asciilifeform: hm?

21:49:36 mircea_popescu: after ro joins eu, they try to improve the quality of police force. send psychologists to test the policemen

21:49:52 mircea_popescu: one of the tests involves one of those boxes with shapes cut into the side and the actual shapes made out of wood outside

21:50:06 mircea_popescu: the results - "1% of the policemen are intelligent, 99% of policemen are strong."

21:50:11 asciilifeform: ah!

21:50:17 *: asciilifeform heard in another form

21:50:20 asciilifeform: but same.

21:50:42 mircea_popescu: "forces one to think" usually works like that - discovers just how many strongmen are there.

21:50:47 asciilifeform: and yes, this is largely true.

21:50:54 asciilifeform: but does not excuse us from the thinking.

21:51:34 mircea_popescu: sure.

21:57:20 asciilifeform: i ~would~ like to actually discover what the equivalence classes are.

23:57:08 BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/ndE13