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Transcript for 19-05-2015, 2394 lines:

00:00:20 jurov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO5ectGTcOU justJanne: the "sustained" was just your luck that usg needed to prop you up

00:01:20 trinque: if we presuppose that the only way to start a business will be having someone bankroll you, we're already lost

00:01:20 trinque: central planning has limitations which will mean that you get far fewer "startups"

00:01:20 justJanne: trinque: that is socialism

00:01:20 justJanne: not social democracy

00:01:20 justJanne: social democracy consists of a social market:

00:01:20 trinque: justJanne: you just misunderstand my definition of central planning

00:01:29 justJanne: essentially a free market, but with 50% taxes and basic income

00:01:47 trinque: uh huh and who determined those are the magic numbers?

00:02:12 trinque: give me a low cost of living and don't tax the shit out of me and I'll start all kinds of businesses

00:02:12 justJanne: the people? that’s why you have (a) elections and (b) public polls on them?

00:02:34 justJanne: we have a party that aims for that.

00:02:38 trinque: determining that 50% taxes is the magic number is not soviet because "the people"

00:02:44 justJanne: they got less than 4% of the votes last election

00:03:14 danielpbarron: the people are stupid

00:03:30 justJanne: no. they just know that one day they might lose their job,

00:03:38 trinque: danielpbarron: heh I always like "surgery by your peers" as a thought experiment

00:03:41 justJanne: and that it is preferable to be safe over having high returns

00:03:53 trinque: justJanne: you are completely ignoring the financial considerations involved

00:04:00 trinque: and substituting "consent" for that

00:04:29 justJanne: trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc.

00:04:30 danielpbarron: high returns is a safeguard against starving when you lose your job; it leads to savings

00:04:43 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Morphine yeast seems like a bigger blow to the fiat order than 3D guns and shovel AK's for sure

00:05:02 justJanne: danielpbarron: unless you lose it all, and have no money and are starving

00:05:06 trinque: danielpbarron: and results in a person that can *make decisions*

00:05:14 trinque: justJanne: then you made bad decisions

00:05:17 trinque: or someone else did

00:05:22 justJanne: yes.

00:05:34 justJanne: but society is there to save you from the consequences of bad decisions ;P

00:05:35 trinque: so how did I get involved in that?

00:05:46 danielpbarron: why should someone who is prone to "lose it all" be propped up by his more productive neighbors?

00:05:50 justJanne: especially when you aren’t responsible

00:05:50 trinque: justJanne: so out of this bundle of bad decisons how do good ones emerge?

00:06:15 trinque: danielpbarron: because govt is the new god and he can save us from even death

00:06:18 trinque: or she, I guess these days

00:06:37 justJanne: danielpbarron: because they have a chance to work later on again?

00:06:57 danielpbarron: this notion that you can be born "not responsible" is the false axiom from which you base further positions

00:06:58 justJanne: it is more profitable, for example, to put criminals into a trade school and let them work again than to put them into a prison

00:07:15 mats: why should society save you from yourself? that's not sustainable in the least.

00:07:22 trinque: justJanne: you cannot assert such things absent the financial considerations

00:08:05 trinque: we can imagine all sorts of ideal scenarios if we're free to disregard parts of reality we don't like

00:08:14 jurov: yeah, it is actually true providing shelter to homeless is cheaper than let them die and dispose of properly

00:08:16 justJanne: so, in your minds, the Comcast/ATT/Verizon oligopol is good?

00:08:48 mats: oligopolies are not inherently evil, you know.

00:08:48 trinque: justJanne: what keeps them from being outcompeted?

00:08:50 danielpbarron: justJanne, your society is a prison; that is, the one in which there is no individual and only the considerations of the lowest common denominator

00:08:59 trinque: too much noise; one point at a time.

00:09:01 justJanne: trinque: cost.

00:09:06 trinque: incorrect

00:09:11 justJanne: the starting cost is extreme.

00:09:27 justJanne: and the oligopols lobby corrupt politicians, too

00:09:33 trinque: justJanne: are you familiar with "regulatory capture"

00:09:42 trinque: sure cost but what makes it expensive

00:09:48 justJanne: and yes, mats, in my opinion all monopolies or oligopolies are inherently evil

00:09:55 trinque: but not governments

00:09:59 mats: justJanne: because "its not fair"?

00:10:01 trinque: the largest of them

00:10:04 justJanne: mats: yes.

00:10:10 mats: because everyone should get a shot at being a telecoms company!

00:10:26 justJanne: mats: yes, but you have to ask the question different.

00:10:29 cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137291 <<< i wouldn't send my dog to free childcare let alone my actually son

00:10:29 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:04:29; justJanne: trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc.

00:10:38 mats: sign me up. i don't know shit, but i can carry a gun. am i qualified?

00:10:53 mats: could do, like, perimeter security for a base station.

00:10:53 justJanne: mats: yes. my ISP I use right now is 5 geeks in a basement.

00:10:59 justJanne: I get 100/40mbps for 10$ a monht

00:11:05 justJanne: and they are profitable

00:11:06 cazalla: you might pay $100 to them in tax but you sure as fuck don't get back $100 worth of childcare when it's free

00:11:08 trinque: try doing radio experiments in your garage and see how long it takes for the FCC to show up

00:11:10 mod6: asciilifeform: thx for posting the werker

00:11:35 justJanne: cazalla: you haven’ŧ seen childcare here, I have – I was in it just 13 years ago ;P

00:11:43 cazalla: it shows

00:11:52 jurov: cazalla: so you'll pay $1000 for childcare instead?

00:11:55 mats: justJanne: b-but don't you believe in freedom?

00:12:18 mats: its entirely possible that monopolies, oligopolies will naturally arise in conditions of voluntary trade

00:12:20 justJanne: mats: your freedom ends where the freedom of the others begins

00:12:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91076 @ 0.0002709 = 24.6725 BTC [-] {4}

00:12:31 mats: and you want, what, a coalition of retards (e.g. bureaucrats and commoners) to manage allocation of capital?

00:12:37 justJanne: no.

00:12:54 mats: but you'd bust that up, if you ran things.

00:13:02 justJanne: no.

00:13:09 justJanne: the current situation is ideal.

00:13:11 mats: but they're evil. you must fight evil.

00:13:18 justJanne: neither side is evil.

00:13:22 justJanne: only sith deal in absolutes

00:13:30 danielpbarron: what is the current situation?

00:13:31 hanbot: except monopolies?

00:13:43 trinque: danielpbarron: social democracy

00:13:56 justJanne: monopolies aren’t really "evil", they just develop out of greed

00:14:03 hanbot: butr you said...

00:14:25 justJanne: the issue with monopolies is that the companies behind it try to do everything in their mind to avoid competition.

00:14:29 justJanne: which is inherently evil

00:14:36 trinque: justJanne: you find me a "monopoly" in history that didn't have govt protection

00:14:36 justJanne: and rarely monopolies every arise without this

00:14:46 justJanne: trinque: Google on the search market

00:14:48 hanbot: how about jealous wives?

00:14:51 trinque: justJanne: fucking lol

00:14:56 trinque: you have no idea what a monopoly is

00:15:00 cazalla: jurov, nope, i'm anti-childcare, kids should be home with their parents, not strangers and other swine

00:15:01 trinque: it's not "oh no they're winning"

00:15:07 danielpbarron: she has no idea what "evil" is

00:15:17 mats: the point of being a business is to brutally murder your competition. there's no avoidance going on.

00:15:28 cazalla: my point was more that the idea that you get back what you pay in taxes by way of free healthcare and childcare is retarded

00:15:40 mats: it just happens that the moat is too high for joe commoner to cross.

00:15:41 jurov: cazalla: the $1000 figure stays even more so if you're to stay home

00:16:05 jurov: and if you pay your own doctor

00:16:08 jurov: own teacher

00:16:10 jurov: etc...

00:16:18 danielpbarron: cazalla, it's practically a mathematical proof : the further detached money gets from the person it is meant to benefit, the less efficiently it will be spent

00:16:37 justJanne: that’s why politicians are supposed to be normal people.

00:16:46 justJanne: my state’s governor uses the same bus as me every morning

00:16:51 danielpbarron: and i'm supposed to have a flying car already

00:16:54 cazalla: jurov, i would if i could, but i can't afford my own doctor.. i can afford to keep kid out of childcare

00:16:57 trinque: justJanne: many of the phrases you use are propaganda terms with no well defined meaning

00:17:01 trinque: "normal people" among them

00:17:18 justJanne: trinque: I am talking about "anyone can become politician"

00:17:23 cazalla: if you're gonna put your kids in childcare, ya may as well just kill em now and save yourself years of pain

00:17:33 trinque: justJanne: and derpy uncle Biden rode amtrak

00:17:40 jurov: and you trinque cazalla danielpbarron are talking about some ideal you can't afford anyway

00:17:40 trinque: so what

00:17:47 trinque: jurov: eh?

00:17:52 danielpbarron: i don't want to live in your socialist hell-hole where every man rides the same urine-smelling bus no matter how productive he is

00:17:56 trinque: jurov: if I had a kid right now I'd be able to pay for it just fine

00:18:06 justJanne: danielpbarron: it’s not urine-smelling, lol.

00:18:11 danielpbarron: yet..

00:18:30 justJanne: even the 10yo busses aren’t.

00:18:35 jurov: danielpbarron: go on

00:18:36 justJanne: because people don’t do that.

00:18:41 trinque: issue isn't the smell of piss

00:18:47 jurov: danielpbarron: how we live in north korea

00:19:27 trinque: justJanne: the issue is your assumption that you have call to involve yourself in my affairs

00:19:31 trinque: as this aggregate "the people"

00:19:35 trinque: I say come and take it.

00:19:44 justJanne: Ah, the english article for "social democracy" is actually wrong

00:19:48 *: trinque departs for now

00:19:51 justJanne: please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model instead

00:20:51 justJanne: that’s what I’m referring to

00:20:51 trinque: I will, bbl

00:20:51 danielpbarron: whatever you're referring to, the monstrosity has 50% tax rate!

00:20:51 justJanne: 44% here right now.

00:20:53 danielpbarron: disgusting

00:20:55 justJanne: and that’s including insurance

00:20:57 trinque: shit it's effectively 50 in the states too

00:20:59 trinque: danielpbarron: ^

00:21:02 justJanne: and life savings

00:21:06 justJanne: and retirement funds

00:21:11 jurov: danielpbarron: you will get separated from your money either way

00:21:14 trinque: and that's not counting the yearly evaporation of weath through currency debasement

00:21:14 danielpbarron: what do you mean it includes life savings?

00:21:20 justJanne: retirement funds, sorry

00:21:25 justJanne: translation is hard ;P

00:21:31 trinque: danielpbarron: people can't think for themselves and store away for the future

00:21:33 cazalla: justJanne, ya know what shit won't be there when you're older, right?

00:21:43 danielpbarron: right but how does it include that if it's taxes? the government forces you to have a savings plan?

00:21:50 trinque: so you just breed an irresponsible generation of fools and somehow those same fools don't inhabit the govt and make sure everyone has savings

00:21:53 justJanne: kinda, but not.

00:22:02 *: trinque pulls himself away

00:22:05 mats: i get that you grew up in a soft place, and believe all folks deserve a fair shot at doing whatever it is they feel

00:22:20 mats: its a beautiful notion. its also not going to happen unless we go post-scarcity, upon which we will revisit the whole thing

00:22:36 danielpbarron: except it's a very specific shot as per what the normal people voted on

00:22:41 justJanne: there are some laws: (a) every insurance has to provide a basic plan for the same price, (b) everyone has to have at least this plan, or more

00:22:43 mats: 'star trek' is a hell for some folks.

00:22:58 trinque: I'll prefer my firefly class vessel thank you

00:23:12 mats: yer a leaf on the wind

00:23:15 jurov: justJanne: do you know what this nordic model did to one Eric Naggum?

00:23:26 justJanne: mats: Star Trek is heaven, and an amazing solution. Although I’m thinking DS9 Star Trek, not TOS Star Trek

00:23:26 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

00:23:38 mats: 'solution'

00:23:38 trinque: mats: goddamn when jayne tears up over his very own riot

00:23:44 trinque: best tv there ever was

00:23:51 mats: replace with fantasy, man.

00:24:13 justJanne: mats: DS9-Star Trek is pretty much real.

00:24:13 danielpbarron: no wonder you think this can work; you saw it work on TV!

00:24:26 mats: trinque: its good stuff, i've watched every ep prob a half dozen times

00:24:32 justJanne: with a combination of free trade (think Quark), and basic life enough for everyone

00:24:37 danielpbarron: you know star trek is a work of fiction, right? those were all a bunch of professional liars

00:24:50 justJanne: yes, ofc.

00:24:57 danielpbarron: i don't think you fully grasp that

00:24:57 mats: you want free trade, but no monopolies or oligopolies.

00:25:06 justJanne: although, tbh, when watching politicians speak, you ask yourself who is the larger liar

00:25:21 danielpbarron: you're the one advocating for politicians

00:25:24 justJanne: mats: yes.

00:25:32 justJanne: read the nordic model again ;P

00:25:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29900 @ 0.00027017 = 8.0781 BTC [-]

00:25:58 mats: nordic model works because you live in a universe that appears utterly detached from economic reality

00:26:00 justJanne: the idea is that you have basic life just enough for everyone available,

00:26:04 jurov: danielpbarron: so you get to keep all your money, i ask again?

00:26:15 justJanne: and then you have a highly competitive, almost unrestricted market for the rest

00:26:21 danielpbarron: what money?

00:26:30 mats: because, well, benefits of superior geography.

00:26:58 jurov: danielpbarron: since you so hate taxes

00:27:04 mats: where the fuck are you going to raise capital for basic income in somalia?

00:27:23 jurov: mats leave that to billg

00:27:36 mats: somalia's not so different from the rest of the world. quite a bit ahead of its time, really

00:27:36 danielpbarron: justJanne, people who fall on hard times should be compelled into slavery by their more productive neighbors; they should not get to treat the whole community like their undeserved slave

00:28:01 danielpbarron: jurov, all but 0.1% of it :p

00:28:01 justJanne: you misuse the word "community"

00:28:17 justJanne: you can only live, and work, because of the people around you

00:28:30 mats: shall we talk about monopolies that benefit the commoners?

00:28:33 justJanne: and the same way the other way round

00:28:42 danielpbarron: no, I can work and live despite the people around me

00:28:56 justJanne: ah, the good old "I can live in a cave" defense

00:29:32 justJanne: I wonder how you’d do without the people taking away your trash, the people putting out the fires, the people cleaning your streets

00:29:46 danielpbarron: there wouldn't be streets if it were just me

00:29:57 danielpbarron: the situation would be so entirely different as to be impossible to compare

00:30:15 mats: lets use the US Postal Service as a model. something like 200 junk mailers are responsible for pumping $billions into the thing, and they pay a pretty penny to be able to shit in your box at commercial rates (in US, cost of letter is $0.49 -- junk mailers pay 5x that)

00:30:47 justJanne: let’s talk about different, benefitial monopolies.

00:31:10 mats: without junk mailers, we'd be paying several dollars apiece just to send letters. DHL, FedEx, ... simply couldn't exist without the USPS in USA

00:31:18 justJanne: nah, not really.

00:31:20 mats: because they are responsible for last mile delivery in many cases.

00:31:25 mats: yes, absolutely really.

00:31:28 justJanne: DHL makes most of its profit in one single place.

00:31:44 justJanne: in the place where Deutsche Post DHL has its main business:

00:31:51 justJanne: parcel and delivery service in Europe

00:32:10 justJanne: yes, they can transport a package for 20$ across the continent over night, and make a profit.

00:32:27 justJanne: sadly, the workers make nothing more than basic income from it

00:33:04 danielpbarron: sadly? why is that sad?

00:33:25 jurov: yes, raise minimal wages, fire everyone, replace with machines

00:33:34 justJanne: no,

00:33:52 justJanne: it is sad because under your assumptions those people shouldn’t work at all

00:34:06 justJanne: they make no more money,

00:34:10 justJanne: and spend their time!

00:34:25 mats: this is exactly how it is in the US.

00:34:45 justJanne: Then why do they still work?

00:34:51 mats: they don't.

00:35:00 mats: ~8mn draw supplementary security income, for example.

00:35:23 mats: folks in various programs draw $300-600/mo in govt kindness, and being worthless as they are,

00:35:25 justJanne: So, it's better to provide straight out subsidies than to have minimum wage?

00:35:51 justJanne: A minimum wage might encourage the company to actually be more efficient.

00:36:15 mats: would rather take it than work at McDonalds for just shy of a thousand bux a month

00:36:53 mats: subsidies AND minimum wages are a shit idea.

00:37:01 mats: you follow? let the market set the conditions.

00:37:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79500 @ 0.00026941 = 21.4181 BTC [-]

00:37:51 justJanne: Minimum wage doesn't hurt the market.

00:37:58 danielpbarron: justJanne, a minimum wage prices the cheap labor out of the market (the company will prefer not to hire them at all)

00:38:08 justJanne: Yes.

00:38:27 mats: you're high if you think setting a price floor in a market doesn't unduly affect market conditions

00:38:32 danielpbarron: so instead of making [not enough money], they will make 0.

00:39:14 mats: its time to give up the childish fantasies and carefully reexamine your beliefs

00:39:33 jurov: And high rents and other life costs won't "unduly affect market conditions"?

00:39:41 jurov: Pls explain

00:39:52 *: BingoBoingo still imagining tumblr folk brewing their own Laudnum. If opiate abuse is already straining the fiat world so...

00:40:06 justJanne: The median German pays less money for health care than the median US person.

00:40:12 justJanne: You pay more. And get less.

00:40:18 justJanne: You have higher taxes,

00:40:25 justJanne: And less free education or healthcare.

00:40:38 justJanne: and less welfare.

00:40:50 danielpbarron: i don't think anyone here is taking the side that the U.S. is a good example of how things should be

00:41:08 justJanne: It's not a childish fantasy of it's the currently best working system.

00:41:18 justJanne: If you want total anarchy, go to somalia, they live it.

00:41:53 BingoBoingo: Nah, go to Ferguson. They have community solidarity!!!

00:41:54 danielpbarron: it's a population that is still only a couple generations off from having the crap kicked out of it

00:41:59 justJanne: And if you break your leg and can't work for a month, you starve to death.

00:42:00 mats: jurov: you addressing me there with the quote?

00:42:14 jurov: mats, yes

00:42:30 danielpbarron: justJanne, I'm all for keeping people alive that would have otherwise starved to death. They just gotta be humbled by the experience; they aren't entitled to the help.

00:42:53 justJanne: They are.

00:43:02 justJanne: Because they played before 59% taxes for others.

00:43:12 justJanne: *50%

00:43:19 mats: jurov: i don't follow. so, because rent is high, folks should get a min wage/basic income

00:43:57 jurov: no mats. i'm saying you're going to be separated from your money either way

00:44:06 danielpbarron: justJanne, the point being, there are more solutions besides "let starve to death" and "steal from everyone to keep them alive"

00:44:07 jurov: so it does not make sense to argue either way

00:44:22 justJanne: danielpbarron: it's not stealing.

00:44:39 justJanne: If you want, you can move to Togo, or Monsanto City, or the Bahamas.

00:45:00 justJanne: And, as you stated, you deserve to be punished for being born here.

00:45:05 mats: it does matter, because govt involvement destroys price efficiency

00:45:36 justJanne: Not really true, either.

00:45:46 justJanne: It is often true,

00:45:47 mats: cost of living being high or wutever is immaterial, i think.

00:45:50 justJanne: But not necessary.

00:46:04 jurov: mats, you're not the first nor last fantsaizing of system without "govt involvement"

00:46:18 justJanne: Reminds me of Deutsche Bahn. A large railway company. Everything was fine, perfectly on time, cheap, profitable.

00:46:21 jurov: somehow, nothign came out of that

00:46:30 BingoBoingo: Eh, Monsanto's no so bad. The only problem with glyphosate is it doesn't always kill plants dead enough.

00:46:36 justJanne: Then they went to stock market and became a private company.

00:46:58 justJanne: Now Deutsche Bahn is slow, never on time, expensive, and not much more profitable either.

00:48:02 justJanne: Every. Single. Time. A governmentally owned institution got sold to a US investor they either closed down 2 days later, became shit, or just expensive.

00:48:12 justJanne: Every. Time.

00:48:25 mats: i recommend a stint as a govt employee

00:48:27 jurov: justJanne: it was govt involvement, dotcha know? :DDDD

00:48:44 danielpbarron: i think the key words in that story are "US investor"

00:49:03 justJanne: I don't care if the government owns the trains, as long as they are 100% on time, cheap, and fast.

00:49:45 danielpbarron: even if they are sometimes used to haul off political dissidents?

00:50:07 justJanne: That is not a part of the discussion.

00:50:40 jurov: lol, as if private enterprises never hauled political dissidents

00:50:42 justJanne: If the government rents a train for that (like Hitler did, the companies profited heavily) or if they own them (like the GDR did), changes nothing.

00:51:37 justJanne: But a governmental monopoly is always better than a private monopoly.

00:52:24 jurov: that's very bad statement

00:52:35 justJanne: Not really.

00:52:40 danielpbarron: that can't be true, and only appears to be because you use the united states as your example of the alternative

00:52:42 jurov: i have personal memories of govt monopolies in czechoslovakia

00:53:07 justJanne: And? Were they replaced by private competition or a private monopoly?

00:53:41 jurov: depends, some. but the is not the problem

00:53:52 justJanne: Assuming no corruption,

00:54:21 jurov: when everything is govt monopoly people who need autonomy, mastery and purpose suffer badly

00:54:22 justJanne: The private monopoly will have an incentive to provide the worst service possible, at the highest possible price.

00:54:37 justJanne: Yes.

00:54:58 justJanne: Most of the things need to be a competition, others need to be nonprofit monopolies.

00:55:20 danielpbarron: what's so bad about "the worst service possible" anyway ?

00:55:21 justJanne: Like the railway tracks, those can be nonprofit monopolies, while dozens of rail operators can rent them.

00:55:30 justJanne: danielpbarron: because that's shit?

00:55:55 justJanne: You want trains that operate every 20 minutes, at 240km/h, for 19€ across Europe,

00:55:57 danielpbarron: no, your totalitiarian government that forces me to raise my kids the normal way is what's bad

00:56:03 justJanne: Not shitty stuff.

00:56:24 justJanne: danielpbarron: you aren't forced to. You can also raise your children at home, ofc.

00:56:27 justJanne: At full pay.

00:56:31 mike_c: <+justJanne> Assuming no corruption, << this is where we enter star trek land?

00:56:48 justJanne: mike_c: kinda. But corruption makes discussion always useless.

00:56:54 mike_c: exactly

00:57:07 justJanne: Especially as the amount of corruption is very different on where you are, and when.

00:58:31 justJanne: But again, the idea of the Nordic model is huge personal freedom, at the same time a stable society that provides a great basis for everyone.

00:58:49 justJanne: And the personal freedom in the Nordic model is larger than in the US.

00:59:05 justJanne: Yes, somalia has more personal freedom, but again, try living there.

00:59:11 danielpbarron: you keep comparing your thing to the US

00:59:33 justJanne: Because the US is a reference point as worst case civilized country.

00:59:59 danielpbarron: shouldn't you compare your thing to my thing? (the thing i'm proposing)

01:00:11 justJanne: So, perfect free anarchy?

01:00:19 justJanne: Can you provide a real life example?

01:00:20 danielpbarron: The Most Serene Republic

01:00:36 danielpbarron: this channel is the example

01:00:39 justJanne: We don't accept fictional systems here, only ones that exist in reality.

01:00:47 justJanne: For this discussion.

01:01:03 danielpbarron: that's rich coming from a trekkie

01:01:06 justJanne: As everyone can claim their model would work.

01:01:17 BingoBoingo: To be fair Corruption is what makes the world go round

01:01:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26500 @ 0.00026779 = 7.0964 BTC [-] {2}

01:02:02 danielpbarron: justJanne, your model works for as long as there is fiat money to manipulate

01:02:10 danielpbarron: which isn't for very much longer

01:02:11 justJanne: Not necessarily.

01:02:23 justJanne: The Nordic model works without currency.

01:02:42 justJanne: And, tbh, here no one cares about bitcoin.

01:02:42 danielpbarron: but does it work with bitcoin?

01:02:56 justJanne: Too high transfer fees, too slow transfers.

01:02:59 danielpbarron: that's ok, bitcoin doesn't care about them either

01:03:34 justJanne: But yeah, it would work with bitcoin.

01:03:50 danielpbarron: but you can't get your 50% from me..

01:04:00 justJanne: Why not?

01:04:06 danielpbarron: what is there to take?

01:04:12 justJanne: Your employer has to send that money to the govt.

01:04:12 danielpbarron: nobody owns any bitcoin

01:04:18 justJanne: You never see the 50%

01:04:30 danielpbarron: suppose my employer doesn't

01:04:42 danielpbarron: because my employer doesn't have a physical basis of operations

01:05:02 justJanne: Then you will have to pay them.

01:05:02 danielpbarron: and he claims juristiction in the Most Serene Republic, and not your joke of a country

01:05:14 danielpbarron: pay them what?

01:05:32 danielpbarron: how do you know I have even been paid?

01:05:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44648 @ 0.00026546 = 11.8523 BTC [-] {2}

01:05:53 jurov: you don't pay for shelter, food nor transport?

01:06:04 justJanne: If you earn money in this country, work here (physical place of employer counts), or use your money, it will be taxed.

01:06:34 justJanne: If you earn your money outside, only use it outside, and so on,

01:06:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171621 @ 0.00026204 = 44.9716 BTC [-] {3}

01:06:40 justJanne: You are technically a tourist.

01:06:44 danielpbarron: why would anyone want to be based out of your country and pay 50% when they can be based out of The Most Serene Republic and pay only 0.1% ?

01:07:21 jurov: will The Most Serene Republic cover your medical expenses in case of accident?

01:07:22 justJanne: The question is:

01:07:34 danielpbarron: jurov, those services will be provided by WoT members eventually I hope

01:07:52 jurov: well, i'm not holding my breath there

01:07:55 justJanne: Why should they live in the serene republic, where your insurance can run off with all your money, when they can live here, and have guaranteed healthcare?

01:08:29 danielpbarron: it's not a matter of where to live, but where to claim juristiction

01:08:39 justJanne: Nah.

01:08:58 justJanne: Where they do their physical work, rent a flat, but food — those things are taxes.

01:09:02 danielpbarron: but the reason is: keep 49.9% of your income and use the savings to buy healthcare later if you need it

01:09:03 justJanne: *taxed

01:09:19 justJanne: And what if you can't afford it at that point?

01:09:25 justJanne: Your system is flawed.

01:09:28 danielpbarron: then i become a slave or die i guess

01:09:31 justJanne: It helps make the rich richer,

01:09:36 danielpbarron: the rich should be richer

01:09:37 justJanne: And the poor poorer.

01:09:42 danielpbarron: the poor should be poorer

01:09:45 justJanne: But society is people,

01:09:55 justJanne: And people deserve to be treated equal.

01:09:59 danielpbarron: no they don't

01:10:07 justJanne: Then go live in the US.

01:10:19 danielpbarron: I do

01:10:27 danielpbarron: it's not what you imagine it is

01:10:38 justJanne: In a few years, the US will have reached the level of freedom that somalia has.

01:11:00 BingoBoingo: "people" kinda suck http://www.reddit.com/r/fatpeoplestories/comments/366c7c/tlc_my_ass/

01:12:00 justJanne: Tbh, I like cities where you have to use the bike.

01:12:44 justJanne: With less than 47% of the people owning cars, and everyone using bikes, public transport, and walking, the amount of overweight people reduces drastically.

01:14:05 justJanne: Okay, bbl, it's 3am

01:14:06 danielpbarron: i ride a bike everywhere in the spring/summer

01:14:38 BingoBoingo: Bikes don't have a clear niche where the really beat pedestrianism, motorcarriages, or rocket plane

01:14:50 justJanne: They do.

01:14:52 danielpbarron: oh they clearly beat walking

01:15:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79745 @ 0.00026136 = 20.8422 BTC [-]

01:15:12 BingoBoingo: I dunno anything beats walking.

01:15:21 jurov: !up joshbuddy

01:15:30 justJanne: If you have small narrow streets, distances between 10 and 15 km, and a huge amount of people on tiny space,

01:15:41 justJanne: Bike is the only solution. (Or public transport)

01:15:59 BingoBoingo: Or walk longer, speed is overrated

01:16:09 danielpbarron: i bike amongst a sea of cars (ct shoreline gets crazy in the summer)

01:16:11 justJanne: Not helpful at 10-15km distance.

01:16:33 BingoBoingo: That's not really all that far on foot

01:16:43 justJanne: Almost all parcel companies, pizza delivery services, etc use bikes Jere for that reason.

01:16:55 justJanne: BingoBoingo: I walk that much daily, I know.

01:17:05 BingoBoingo: Sure

01:17:17 justJanne: Still it's not a distance that makes a car useful, but would be ideal for biking.

01:17:31 justJanne: Anyway, 3am, bbl

01:18:11 danielpbarron: car beats bike if money isn't a consideration

01:19:49 BingoBoingo: http://imperatortempus42.tumblr.com/post/119286272196/punk-con-winnieportleyrind

01:20:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 258100 @ 0.00025836 = 66.6827 BTC [-] {7}

01:27:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72000 @ 0.00026137 = 18.8186 BTC [+]

01:30:29 BingoBoingo: !up pet_dushenski

01:30:37 BingoBoingo: !up pete_dushenski

01:36:10 pete_dushenski: oh hello world.

01:37:41 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137550 << fact.

01:37:41 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:48:25; mats: i recommend a stint as a govt employee

01:38:34 pete_dushenski: a year, mebbe a year and a half is perfectly sufficient to understand the insanity-on-a-stick that is state-run anything.

01:39:17 mod6: all you need is one trip to the post office

01:39:35 pete_dushenski: canada post is actually decent.

01:40:01 pete_dushenski: post offices are just a special counter in a corner of pharmacies

01:41:12 midnightmagic: Medicine here is good too, as are government-run car insurance corps which have superior prices to private enterprises elsewhere in Canada.

01:43:38 midnightmagic: Stats canada provides superior-quality reports to private enterprise. Environment Canada is the source for pretty much all weather everywhere in Canada.. Health Canada has very little politics in it, necessarily.

01:44:06 pete_dushenski: gov-run services in canada also service relatively few people and are unforgivably expensive.

01:44:48 pete_dushenski: and the relative quality of their output compared to the derpy canadian private enterprises still doesn't speak to how poorly they're run.

01:45:05 pete_dushenski: they're mostly funded and staffed to the rafters.

01:45:53 pete_dushenski: and they're awful to work for if you have ambition and half a functioning intellect.

01:50:07 mats: i witnessed a pretty serious amount of theft and graft, even at the company level in .mil

01:50:27 mats: can't imagine the kind of devilry a bent brigade quartermaster or commander can get up to

01:52:24 decimation: mats: ever seen sgt bilko?

01:52:42 mats: nah, heard of it though, i'll add it to ma list

01:54:31 decimation: it's funny. the troupe of the corrupt supply sergeant probably has a good basis in fact

01:55:13 decimation: of course, 'corrupt' can mean 'good at acquiring stuff without respect to derpy rules'

01:55:14 mats: it absolutely does

01:55:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77750 @ 0.00027022 = 21.0096 BTC [+] {2}

01:56:24 decimation: "Stats canada provides superior-quality reports to private enterprise." < what private enterprise provides reports on derpy bureaucracy?

01:59:03 pete_dushenski: lol right. "we make the best reports on the things we ate for breakfast. they're quite unparalleled in detail and accuracy."

01:59:57 mats: in my short stint, i shit you not, things like uparmored vehicles, munitions, and all sorts of tactical gear (e.g. night vision goggles, range finders, body armor) vanished into thin air, leaving the commander on the hook

02:00:50 mats: this occurred under the management of three supply dudes, each of them who successively transferred to another unit before shit hit the fan, and to my knowledge nobody's been locked up yet

02:01:27 decimation: mats did you see that econtalk link I posted about lying in the military

02:01:44 mats: no

02:02:14 decimation: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/04/leonard_wong_on.html

02:03:14 mats: yup

02:03:14 mats: there is this thing known as "zero defect" officers

02:03:14 decimation: yeah he talks about that

02:03:14 decimation: 'everyone knows' they are lying

02:03:18 mats: because of the structure of officer corps, evaluations bear enormous weight, and you simply cannot ever fuck up

02:03:36 mats: because its "up or out", if you aren't worthy of a promotion according to n metrics, you gtfo

02:03:53 decimation: yep. Really us mil's problem is that is majorly officer heavy

02:04:50 decimation: if some random staff officer can demand that every 2lt must sign for whatever derpy training or equipment kind invalidates the 'chain of command'

02:04:54 decimation: which is imaginary anyway

02:06:21 mats: well, in that instance, company/batt/brigade cdr is responsible for managing an effective command environment

02:07:05 decimation: sure, and rather than trusting in his judgment, usg sees fit to shower him with thousands of 'requirements'

02:07:42 mats: the ugly status of officer corps is why i didn't stay in ROTC in univ

02:08:58 decimation: they talk the talk, but the actual 'walk' is 'play the bureaucratic/democratic politics game'

02:17:57 mats: the skimming going on was incredible lol

02:18:07 mats: even the cooks were doing it

02:18:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101000 @ 0.0002657 = 26.8357 BTC [-] {2}

02:19:00 danielpbarron: !up O2made

02:19:03 mats: fuckers would feed us pasta, one or two meatballs, and week old salad as often as they could

02:19:41 mats: meanwhile they pocket 70% of what the unit actually allotted for a meal

02:21:42 decimation: mats: I shudder to think about what the rest of usg is up to

02:22:09 mats: pallets of MREs would regularly go missing at the end of field exercises

02:22:21 decimation: pallets

02:22:33 decimation: I guess you could sell on ebay

02:22:56 mats: which is why you can buy MREs for three bux when USG pays twelve per iirc

02:23:06 mats: yeah eBay

02:38:50 mats: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Cases-of-Military-MREs-1-A-and-1-B-6-2014-insp-date-24meals-/141611644330

02:39:50 mats: check out the seller's profile

02:39:50 mats: this guy definitely knows a bent supply dude

02:39:50 decimation: one wonders why the hell usg doesn't investigate this kind of stuff

02:39:50 decimation: I guess they are 'too busy'

02:40:07 BingoBoingo: Guy seems awfully close to Leonard Wood

02:40:59 mats: fort lost in the woods -- never again.

02:43:56 *: mats fondly remembers training event where we were forced to go MOPP 3 (overboots, gas mask, most of the NBC gear) with body armor and run around the track on a summer afternoon

02:44:36 decimation: I had a friend who went to 'real' MOPP training - he was suited in a room with VX gas.

02:45:00 decimation: he said it took several hours to donn/duff the gear

02:45:17 mats: i have a hard time believing VX was used in a training event

02:45:32 decimation: he might have been bullshitting

02:45:38 BingoBoingo: This weekend I was traveling the still more southern parts of illinois, saw the first wild armadillo I've seen east of the missippi

02:45:38 mats: when you can just dissolve a tablet of CS in a spray bottle

02:46:12 decimation: http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/army-soldiers-participate-in-mopp-gear-exchange-their-final-news-photo/1940525

02:47:12 BingoBoingo: The wild of armadillo was of course in it's natural state dead on the side of the road

02:47:12 decimation: "Soldiers from all branches of the Armed Forces, civilian first responders, and some foreign military attend the chemical school for training in various types of chemical detection and survival through several courses including practice in a hot zone where actual toxic agents such as the Sarin and VX nerve agents."

02:47:12 decimation: you couldn't pay me enough for that shit

02:47:12 mats: guys in the chemical corps were some of the most crazy ive ever met

02:48:13 decimation: there's no doubt that a 'real' chemical attack is gonna result in alot of deaths

02:48:26 decimation: the game is just to minimize it I guess

02:49:42 mats: chemical weapons are only useful for propaganda

02:50:18 mats: absurdly expensive compared to the cost of a 5.56 round

02:51:00 decimation: under the right conditions I guess they could kill alot of people

02:52:02 decimation: the main problem with chemical weapons is the 'moral debt' they incur

02:52:15 decimation: you start gasing the enemy's cities, he can nuke/gas yours

03:04:05 trinque: antisocialist thread went about as I thought

03:04:17 trinque: glad I drank wine at ben_vulpes' office instead

03:04:20 trinque: :D

03:06:37 decimation: I suspect one cannot be against 'basic income' and 'insurance for all' without being a nazi in modern germany

03:07:14 trinque: yeah I'm sure that informs the "modern" sensibilities

03:07:24 trinque: dad beat mom, son is a radical feminist

03:11:05 mats: fun fact: there is a Turing-complete printer control VM in the winders kernel

03:12:32 *: trinque autisms in the corner

03:12:36 decimation: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0302/US-grants-German-homeschoolers-asylum.-Will-others-follow "But German media have portrayed the case as an insult to the German system. Many Germans are shocked to learn that 1.5 million children in the US are homeschooled and that the practice is legal in countries like France, Italy, and Ireland.

03:13:36 trinque: mats: windows' spooler thing has a language in it?

03:13:36 decimation: ^ more nordic freedom

03:14:59 mats: trinque: yep.

03:15:09 trinque: well that's good.

03:16:04 trinque: this extensibility thing is braindamage

03:16:32 trinque: dev is insecure about whether his app covers all cases so he does things like that, builds a goddamn scripting layer into the thing because you know printing needs that

03:17:03 trinque: then 5 years later that's a part of history and you can't change that, who are you?

03:17:19 mats: another fun fact: there's also a Turing-complete PostScript VM in the kernel

03:17:28 trinque: NT or linux?

03:17:28 mats: ^___^

03:17:34 mats: NT.

03:17:46 BingoBoingo: I thought you were going to say both

03:17:57 trinque: history will hold that Windows was specifically intended for maximal didling

03:17:59 trinque: *diddling

03:18:17 mats: i dunno all that much about linux tbh

03:19:04 trinque: BingoBoingo: this probably means CUPS is too

03:19:19 trinque: postscript is probably itself turing complete

03:19:34 trinque: yup it is

03:19:35 BingoBoingo: CUPS is weird. Sometimes it just works, othertimes catches fire.

03:20:22 trinque: the perception is probably due to myriad shitty filters and ppd's by printer manufacturers

03:20:31 mats: you'd think there's not a good reason for the kernel to need PostScript

03:20:50 trinque: apparently there are good reasons for all kinds of rape these days

03:20:52 mats: but... you need it for printer stuff and fonts

03:21:19 mats: for the enterprising d00d there r a number of 0days in there

03:22:11 mats: go get em before server 2003 EOL

03:22:35 trinque: nah after's even better

03:22:45 trinque: you know nobody that fields that crap upgrades anything

03:23:04 trinque: next time you're in a restaurant try to spot the XP running on the terminals

03:23:13 trinque: I've seen 2k

03:25:09 trinque: praise to the guy still using the DOS point of sale... I bet nobody knows how to break into that anymore

03:30:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20108 @ 0.00025339 = 5.0952 BTC [-]

03:33:14 mats: uh huh

04:03:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33700 @ 0.00025401 = 8.5601 BTC [+]

04:21:39 mats: http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/05/15/congratulations-graduate-now-pay/QoPBl4MdUWeeyHfGk0WzQJ/story.html

04:22:41 mats: "The average class of 2015 borrower will graduate college with just over $35,000 in debt, according to an analysis by Edvisors, ...[that] makes the class of 2015 the most indebted class in history, graduating with a whopping $56 billion in student loan debt."

04:37:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86364 @ 0.00025372 = 21.9123 BTC [-] {2}

04:50:18 deedbot-: [fraudsters] The Fetlife Meatlist - Volume XII - http://fraudsters.com/2015/the-fetlife-meatlist-volume-xii/

04:54:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18650 @ 0.00027024 = 5.04 BTC [+]

04:59:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20108 @ 0.00027624 = 5.5546 BTC [+]

05:01:07 asciilifeform: <mats> fun fact: there is a Turing-complete printer control VM in the winders kernel << the contents of winblows kernel are - imho - approximately as interesting as buruli ulcer. and for the same reason.

05:01:15 asciilifeform: (not i did not say, 'uninteresting.')

05:01:41 asciilifeform: trinque> praise to the guy still using the DOS point of sale << saw this alive in b-a

05:03:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23500 @ 0.00027881 = 6.552 BTC [+]

05:04:55 mats: windows could just rasterize PostScript and run the VM in user mode

05:07:05 mats: wasn't reasonably quick in early 90s but now...

05:13:14 mats: dear god EMET is a shitshow

05:33:47 trinque: asciilifeform: I tend to think if it survived that long something's right about it

05:47:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93592 @ 0.00027419 = 25.662 BTC [-] {2}

05:54:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67700 @ 0.00027881 = 18.8754 BTC [+]

06:00:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98800 @ 0.00028103 = 27.7658 BTC [+] {3}

06:05:06 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market buttchina

06:05:08 gribble: BTCChina BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 233.827048, Best ask: 233.831884, Bid-ask spread: 0.00484, Last trade: 233.82866, 24 hour volume: 17755.83700000, 24 hour low: 232.935612, 24 hour high: 236.89952, 24 hour vwap: 235.370633812

06:05:19 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market itbutt

06:05:20 gribble: Error: This is not one of the supported markets. Please choose one of ['bcent', 'okc', 'btcn', 'coinbase', 'cbx', 'btce', 'bfx', 'btcavg', 'btcde', 'krk', 'bitmynt', 'btsp'] or 'all'

06:05:55 BingoBoingo: ^ nanotube can gribble get itbutt ticker pls?

06:09:49 mircea_popescu: trinque hey, you gonna make deedbot announce bitbet bets too ?

06:11:22 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137812 << imo dos is actually better than unix.

06:11:22 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 05:33:47; trinque: asciilifeform: I tend to think if it survived that long something's right about it

06:13:18 trinque: mircea_popescu: bitbets sure, it's RSS?

06:13:28 mircea_popescu: json iirc

06:13:40 mircea_popescu: it was new props, and bets > 1 btc iirc.

06:15:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00028176 = 4.5082 BTC [+] {2}

06:17:20 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137579 << for the record, corruption is the only thing that's actually good, just, sane and humane in that discussion.

06:17:20 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:56:48; justJanne: mike_c: kinda. But corruption makes discussion always useless.

06:17:44 mircea_popescu: all the shoulding and oughting and wanting is outright criminal.

06:17:47 trinque: is that like, paying people to do things?

06:17:52 mircea_popescu: ikr?

06:17:57 trinque: fucking evil

06:18:30 mircea_popescu: me persuading people to betray uncle sam = corruption!111 ; congress coming up with fatca to FORCE people into betraying their own customers = rule of law

06:18:32 mircea_popescu: go fig.

06:20:07 trinque: they're incredibly obedient, which is probably fine under sane circumstances

06:20:13 mircea_popescu: corruption is commerce that dares work against one's ideological goals. the mere fact that this could happen invalidates that one's thinking, and the fact it happens i npractice, and not even exceptionally but to the degree it can no longe be ignored even by the wilfully ignorant ...

06:20:48 mircea_popescu: basically if corruption is a problem you're hitler.

06:22:26 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137586 << yes, it is. so is germany. the situation here is that a leper and a phtysic point at each other.

06:22:26 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:59:33; justJanne: Because the US is a reference point as worst case civilized country.

06:22:40 mircea_popescu: yes, yes, the one with tb will die first and the one with leprosy stinks worst. big whoop.

06:24:19 mircea_popescu: and on which, incidentally, http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Bulletin_1904_1000535282/85

06:25:19 mircea_popescu: "Doubtless the danger of infection is exaggerated to-day in its sociological dangerous manner."

06:25:19 mircea_popescu: century ago, same problems.

06:28:51 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137583 << yes. and it only works for as long as there's free herring in the scania straight, or for as long as kennedy is ein berliner and airlifts food for free, or for as long as the north sea oil lasts, or for as long as insane luck rolls keep going. otherwise, fuckall, german peasants were the most unfortunate wretches throughout the intermediate period between first

06:28:51 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:58:49; justJanne: And the personal freedom in the Nordic model is larger than in the US.

06:28:51 mircea_popescu: and second example.

06:29:24 mircea_popescu: i get it, you got how to throw a great party down, once someone prepares the cupboards. very impressed.

06:30:32 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137610 << epic.

06:30:32 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:04:12; justJanne: Your employer has to send that money to the govt.

06:30:47 mircea_popescu: "youy have to fuck this drake on cam. go ahead."

06:31:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 108648 @ 0.000286 = 31.0733 BTC [+] {2}

06:32:11 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137626 << no. and neither will slovakia. unless it's a good deal for them, making it a cheap way to acquire publicity rights for your case for instance.

06:32:11 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:07:21; jurov: will The Most Serene Republic cover your medical expenses in case of accident?

06:32:48 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137636 << then you suck and should be dead in the first place.

06:32:48 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:09:19; justJanne: And what if you can't afford it at that point?

06:33:05 mircea_popescu: there's no rule that "everyone must has", be it equal chances or whatever else. there's also no rule that everyone's just as good as everyone else.

06:33:21 mircea_popescu: not everything has to be preserved. some shit dies, thanks fucking god.

06:34:16 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137652 << this is true. famine is what made eastern european girls such hotties the past 2-3 decades. it's fading, of course.

06:34:16 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:12:44; justJanne: With less than 47% of the people owning cars, and everyone using bikes, public transport, and walking, the amount of overweight people reduces drastically.

06:36:57 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137659 << i'm with him. i love walking.

06:36:57 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:15:12; BingoBoingo: I dunno anything beats walking.

06:37:13 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137661 << why would anyone sane live in a rookery.

06:37:13 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:15:30; justJanne: If you have small narrow streets, distances between 10 and 15 km, and a huge amount of people on tiny space,

06:38:30 BingoBoingo: The natural order of things is you walk around town and drive (car, horse, rocket) between towns.

06:38:41 mircea_popescu: yeh

06:38:58 BingoBoingo: A bicycle is just dead wait that's going to get stolen as soon as you have to go inside a building

06:39:03 mircea_popescu: "on this point, there can be no debate!"

06:41:06 BingoBoingo: And if one can't walk with leisure to all places of import in the town, the town sucks

06:41:15 trinque: driving alone on a road being a close second

06:42:15 trinque: I used to get a lot of thinking done driving between the major cities in TX; past a certain hour there's nobody out there

06:42:59 BingoBoingo: driving alone on a road in the middle of nowhere during the day, just might take first place

06:43:16 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137702 << sounds exactly like the chinese palace of pu yi

06:43:16 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 02:00:50; mats: this occurred under the management of three supply dudes, each of them who successively transferred to another unit before shit hit the fan, and to my knowledge nobody's been locked up yet

06:43:19 trinque: try making angry plans for your life on your fucking bicycle

06:43:23 trinque: impossible

06:43:42 mircea_popescu: trinque or while having secx.

06:44:59 trinque: lol, I give that a 50/50 on working out

06:45:10 trinque: could be like "and then we're going to own half this city" and so on, with thrusts

06:45:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54500 @ 0.00028775 = 15.6824 BTC [+] {3}

06:46:11 mircea_popescu: >D

06:46:24 mircea_popescu: so try it sometime

06:48:05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137742 << well, what they say they're doing and what they're actually doing in training exercises is famously divorced.

06:48:05 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 02:45:32; decimation: he might have been bullshitting

06:48:18 mircea_popescu: "This room has vx gas in it!11" "no, not really, act as if it did."

06:49:33 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137752 << nukes, smaller.

06:49:33 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 02:49:42; mats: chemical weapons are only useful for propaganda

06:49:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31900 @ 0.00028823 = 9.1945 BTC [+] {2}

06:51:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137760 << obv, as displayed in chat. the most amusing part being the implicit expectation one'd care. which apparently only exists because it was never challenged.

06:51:27 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 03:06:37; decimation: I suspect one cannot be against 'basic income' and 'insurance for all' without being a nazi in modern germany

06:52:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 176448 @ 0.00028307 = 49.9471 BTC [-] {3}

06:57:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93600 @ 0.00026658 = 24.9519 BTC [-]

07:05:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45252 @ 0.00026658 = 12.0633 BTC [-]

07:20:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84600 @ 0.00028762 = 24.3327 BTC [+] {2}

07:25:23 ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: does log.bitcoin-assets.com have some weird filtering?

07:25:53 ben_vulpes: pnohe does not want to resolve dns even apparently

07:26:42 ben_vulpes: raptop, howeverz...

07:36:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6750 @ 0.00028227 = 1.9053 BTC [-]

07:39:56 justJanne: BingoBingo: the issue is that you can't walk around in larger towns anymore, and that's where bikes become useful. And no, people don't steal it. Hell, I've left my laptop hundreds of times on random park benches in heavily frequented parks, never stolen. In my neighborhood most people don't even lock their doors.

07:42:14 ben_vulpes: <justJanne> danielpbarron: unless you lose it all, and have no money and are starving << people who should starve should starve

07:42:57 justJanne: And that's where you are wrong.

07:43:21 ben_vulpes: justJanne: there are simply too many people on this planet

07:43:30 justJanne: Nope.

07:43:46 justJanne: Currently the food production of the world could support 10 billion people.

07:44:01 justJanne: But about 40% of the produced food is wasted.

07:44:10 ben_vulpes: were it all dispersed evenly across everyone, rather than proportionately to their ability to pay.

07:44:16 trinque: "at this rate of emptying the tank we could support infinite trucks"

07:44:25 justJanne: Not really.

07:44:38 ben_vulpes: suuuure, if all the food were spread really thinly across the whole population base, we could all live on gruel!

07:44:45 justJanne: No.

07:45:07 williamdunne: Waste is a fact, there is no real way around it

07:45:09 ben_vulpes: this contradiction routine wears thin, justJanne.

07:45:18 williamdunne: We could have more people if people wanted to fuck ugly chicks

07:45:21 williamdunne: But they don't

07:45:38 justJanne: I am saying: just the food you let go to waste would be enough to feed the starving people in Africa.

07:45:57 trinque: justJanne: bringing things places costs money

07:46:03 ben_vulpes: i literally give zero shits about starving people in africa.

07:46:16 justJanne: And that's the issue what's wrong with this world.

07:46:21 justJanne: Or rather, how to get wars.

07:46:25 ben_vulpes: show me how to save my wot from impending doom, and i'll give a shit.

07:46:43 ben_vulpes: but saving randos on another continent? idgaf.

07:46:49 williamdunne: Africa might actually stand a chance of doing something if it weren't for various restrictions placed by EU, USG and co

07:46:58 justJanne: True.

07:47:04 williamdunne: Feeding them is useless

07:47:06 trinque: justJanne: does europe now think it is "beyond" war?

07:47:17 ben_vulpes: "war is interested in you"

07:47:24 trinque: ^

07:47:31 justJanne: War might be interested in Europe, as an entity

07:47:43 justJanne: But the wars inside of EU are history.

07:48:02 justJanne: For the first time in the past 3000 years we have no wars between EU countries.

07:48:07 ben_vulpes: bwahaha

07:48:08 trinque: fascinating...

07:48:13 ben_vulpes: for this brief period

07:48:14 trinque: does germany own the EU politically now?

07:48:20 justJanne: Nah.

07:48:25 trinque: justJanne: you're german right?

07:48:41 justJanne: The EU council has actually no say.

07:48:54 trinque: whoever has money has say

07:48:55 justJanne: The power is in the commission and the parliament

07:49:07 ben_vulpes: heh, cute

07:49:17 ben_vulpes: not those who buy the votes. no never that.

07:49:22 justJanne: You can't pass a law without either bribing half of them,

07:49:41 justJanne: Or changing the constitution first.

07:50:10 ben_vulpes: in what world are all of the politicians in any situation not wholly owned by capital?

07:50:56 ben_vulpes: this Janne babe's doing a number on the chan, smack in the middle of the keymageddon.

07:51:01 williamdunne: A magic world without capital

07:51:03 justJanne: The EU commissioners, albeit getting lobbied to by many companies to pass TTIP just leaked all secret treaties they are working on.

07:51:22 williamdunne: TTIP seems like an interesting idea, IMO

07:51:27 justJanne: They might be corrupt, but they aren't that corrupt.

07:51:28 williamdunne: Keep governments liable for damages

07:51:29 williamdunne: Do it

07:51:32 justJanne: Lol

07:51:37 ben_vulpes: !rate justJanne -1 some girl with notions

07:51:37 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/b29f6c168dbf9900

07:51:45 justJanne: We've seen what happened before.

07:51:53 justJanne: Romania reduced subsidies,

07:52:07 justJanne: And had to pay 250 million in damages.

07:52:10 justJanne: Per suing company.

07:52:18 justJanne: Subsidies can't be what you want, right?

07:52:18 *: williamdunne admittedly only read about the "er mer gerd evul cerperatshuns rapin guv"

07:52:30 ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.justJanne.-1:27e8f6ad997dec923ad3c861be03ff72636087cdaac99dd9e535179a33aa1675

07:52:30 assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for justJanne with note: some girl with notions

07:52:40 williamdunne: Don't want subsidies

07:52:52 williamdunne: Don't want taxes

07:52:54 williamdunne: Don't want gov

07:53:01 justJanne: Then you should be against TTIP

07:53:20 justJanne: Because it forces governments to keep subsidies, or increase them.

07:53:31 justJanne: It also leads to restrictions for some companies.

07:53:47 justJanne: And adds European IP law in the US, and US IP law in Europe.

07:54:04 justJanne: So no, you can't produce cheese and call it Gouda or Cheddar in the US anymore.

07:54:08 justJanne: Ad that's copyrighted.

07:54:12 justJanne: *as

07:54:27 justJanne: TTIP is bad for almost everyone.

07:54:37 williamdunne: Don't want IP

07:54:54 williamdunne: I just like the idea of suing government, wasn't aware that you could sue for removed subsidies

07:55:00 justJanne: Then you don't want TTIP

07:55:18 justJanne: You should read the treaty.

07:55:24 williamdunne: I should, I'll do that later

07:55:33 williamdunne: Although in this case I like subsidies, I change my mind

07:55:35 trinque: what I do want is other people signing contracts on my behalf.

07:55:46 trinque: dictating terms to me

07:55:48 trinque: this is freedom

07:55:50 justJanne: Nah.

07:55:53 trinque: yes.

07:55:55 williamdunne: ^ +1, trinque you want my GPG key?

07:55:58 trinque: you're too young to have ever had anything

07:56:01 justJanne: Freedom is when you'd get to vote on it.

07:56:06 williamdunne: Wut?

07:56:07 trinque: williamdunne: for what

07:56:14 williamdunne: trinque: Signing contracts on my behalf

07:56:17 ben_vulpes: i'm looking forward to ttip draining medicaid for hilaribad training proggys

07:56:23 trinque: williamdunne: oh, I do not

07:56:25 justJanne: Without even the ability to vote on this, TTIP is unconstitutional.

07:56:38 williamdunne: Voting ain't freedom

07:56:43 justJanne: Nah.

07:56:51 justJanne: But without voting there is 0 freedom.

07:57:01 ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: how long do i have to wait for assbot to accept and act on my raitings?

07:57:02 williamdunne: Voting arguably reduces freedom

07:57:07 justJanne: Voting makes it 50% freedom, as at least 50% of the people gets their choice.

07:57:17 ben_vulpes: ratings*

07:57:18 justJanne: Without voting, there is 0 freedom

07:57:26 trinque: justJanne: 435/320mil are going to rubber stamp this thing and make me ok with it?

07:57:29 williamdunne: In that case with voting there is -1 freedom

07:57:41 williamdunne: It gives the idea of legitimacy to bad things

07:57:42 justJanne: Why?

07:57:59 williamdunne: If that is freedom, so is gangrape

07:58:00 justJanne: Not everything is bad, just because you don't like it.

07:58:13 williamdunne: Subjectively it is

07:58:19 ben_vulpes: but the average of opinions is good, because it includes everyone!1

07:58:21 cazalla: russians need to send more reds to rape german women tbh, fuck this shit

07:58:24 justJanne: But objectively not.

07:58:42 williamdunne: Objectively speaking stealing from people is bad

07:58:54 williamdunne: The fact that there is an organization doing it on your behalf makes it no better

07:58:58 justJanne: There is no stealing.

07:59:02 williamdunne: Regardless if you've got your popular mandate

07:59:06 williamdunne: *of if

07:59:06 justJanne: You do it voluntarily.

07:59:09 ben_vulpes: <williamdunne> Objectively speaking stealing from people is bad << nope, stealing from my enemies is grand.

07:59:13 trinque: justJanne: there is allowing the state to control the definition of money and of ownership.

07:59:15 trinque: the fucking end

07:59:21 justJanne: You could just move to Somalia.

07:59:25 justJanne: No taxes anymore.

07:59:26 justJanne: See?

07:59:29 justJanne: No stealing.

07:59:32 williamdunne: Thats not how this works

07:59:39 justJanne: It's your choice to live in a place with taxes.

07:59:48 williamdunne: No it isn't, I was born here

07:59:55 justJanne: We had that earlier.

08:00:11 ben_vulpes: lol and this is a 19yo girl

08:00:13 justJanne: And you said people deserve to be punished for the actions for their ancestors.

08:00:21 williamdunne: When did I say this?

08:00:31 justJanne: In this case, you deserve to be taxed because your parents were to stupid to move away

08:00:39 trinque: heh

08:00:51 ben_vulpes: and you deserve to be raped for supporting socialism then?

08:00:51 williamdunne: [citation needed]

08:00:53 justJanne: I think trinque was the one saying it?

08:01:08 cazalla: justJanne, hope you get raped by a gang of marauding muslims over there

08:01:08 trinque: I'll take it

08:01:28 williamdunne: Trinque's statements aren't my own, this isn't a government

08:01:49 trinque: yep

08:01:57 justJanne: So, williamdunne, you say people don't deserve to be punished for the actions of their ancestors?

08:02:04 williamdunne: Yes

08:02:08 justJanne: So everyone should, after birth, have the same chances?

08:02:10 ben_vulpes: <justJanne> mats: DS9-Star Trek is pretty much real. << aha she thinks scifi's real

08:02:11 williamdunne: No

08:02:19 justJanne: Why not?

08:02:20 williamdunne: Something can be without being enacted

08:02:31 williamdunne: The difference is the initiation

08:02:35 justJanne: Why should they be punished for their parents poorness?

08:02:37 trinque: justJanne: you use should to leap across things you don't want to have to think about.

08:02:38 ben_vulpes: <justJanne> Why not? << needs some context

08:02:45 trinque: this is nothing bad, just being young and not knowing anything

08:02:46 mircea_popescu: !up referredbyloper

08:02:46 williamdunne: They aren't being punished, they simply are

08:03:04 justJanne: Punishment through inaction is still punishment.

08:03:08 williamdunne: No, it isn't

08:03:18 trinque: you know, if socialists are happy in socialism, why isn't that fine?

08:03:29 trinque: I say sit in it

08:03:38 williamdunne: Because they enforce it on others, if they want to create a commune go for it

08:03:39 ben_vulpes: rot in your poo!

08:03:40 justJanne: I don't know. I have no issues with you guys building a state of anarchy,

08:03:49 trinque: anarchy lol

08:03:53 justJanne: As long as this place can stay the way it is.

08:04:05 williamdunne: You don't really get a choice in what happens

08:04:06 ben_vulpes: and how would you know how this place is, justJanne

08:04:09 mircea_popescu: <justJanne> Currently the food production of the world could support 10 billion people. << that's not the point. sure, food could be produced to feed 10, 100, one trillion. does not mean anyone wants more idiots running around. too many as it is.

08:04:26 justJanne: trinque: you guys said you wanted a place where "no man rules over other men", no taxes, no government, no controls, no streets.

08:04:31 justJanne: That's pretty much anarchy.

08:04:36 trinque: no one speaks for me

08:04:39 mircea_popescu: who said this and where did they say it ?

08:04:54 justJanne: williamdunne said it, for example.

08:04:57 ben_vulpes: <justJanne> trinque: you guys said you wanted a place where "no man rules over other men", no taxes, no government, no controls, no streets. << source or seriously get the fuck out

08:05:01 justJanne: Several others said the same before.

08:05:06 ben_vulpes: williamdunne does not count.

08:05:08 trinque: scam

08:05:13 trinque: ben_vulpes: provacateur!

08:05:17 williamdunne: Once again, my opinions are my own

08:05:25 williamdunne: Something I have said does not apply to others here

08:05:26 mircea_popescu: justJanne you will have to learn to cite.

08:05:26 justJanne: williamdunne Don't want taxes

08:05:28 williamdunne: And I am not a lord

08:05:37 justJanne: williamdunne Don't want gov

08:05:45 ben_vulpes: <justJanne> williamdunne Don't want taxes << so what and whatever

08:05:53 ben_vulpes: kid doesn't matter

08:05:56 mircea_popescu: not merely because to prevail in arguments, but because a mind that's organised without strong sourcing of propositions is windows in a skullbox.

08:05:56 williamdunne: justJanne: Once again, you're quoting me

08:06:05 ben_vulpes: can't keep an irc bot up

08:06:11 justJanne: Yes, and I'm arguing with you.

08:06:13 mircea_popescu: aww why so mean!

08:06:26 williamdunne: On that note, scoop will be back later today

08:06:33 williamdunne: for good this time

08:06:36 williamdunne: I swearsies

08:06:37 mircea_popescu: good.

08:06:39 justJanne: If the others want to join the argument, they have to also measure themselves to your statements.

08:06:50 mircea_popescu: not how this works justJanne

08:06:58 williamdunne: Read the logs

08:07:02 williamdunne: Their positions are all in there

08:07:10 ben_vulpes: williamdunne: better to demonstrate than postulate.

08:07:20 williamdunne: justJanne: You're joining the argument, not the other way around

08:07:27 justJanne: No.

08:07:35 justJanne: I made yesterday some statements,

08:07:44 justJanne: That were picked out of context and attacked today.

08:07:54 williamdunne: What meanies

08:07:54 trinque: people review the logs and respond; get used to it

08:07:55 justJanne: By people saying they want no subsidies, but TTIP

08:08:04 mircea_popescu: they were taken out of the context you intended them in and placed in the wider context prevailing here.

08:08:15 mircea_popescu: this gives you an opportunity to explain yourself, or to go nuts i guess.

08:08:26 justJanne: I didn't go nuts yet.

08:08:36 mircea_popescu: not yet, no :)

08:08:42 mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone ever tried nut-aged cheese ?

08:09:00 justJanne: I wonder how you guys actually think your social system will work in reality.

08:09:09 mircea_popescu: ever read anythng on the topic ?

08:09:30 justJanne: Yeah, a friend of mine was an extreme anarchist.

08:09:39 justJanne: So I read and learned a lot about it.

08:09:41 mircea_popescu: woman. your derpy friends are immaterial.

08:10:02 justJanne: Interesting idea, unless it is implemented, within of a dozen generations it often stops working.

08:10:05 mircea_popescu: i've known a bunch of german sluts, i don't go around assuming you're one, right ?

08:10:16 justJanne: Nah.

08:10:24 williamdunne: justJanne: What is implemented? WoT is alive and well

08:10:28 justJanne: But we talked through your topic a bunch of times.

08:10:36 mircea_popescu: yeah i guess time for a reading list.

08:10:49 justJanne: williamdunne: when you'd try to implement this system in reality, as a social system.

08:10:57 williamdunne: We're being social now

08:10:59 mircea_popescu: justJanne http://fraudsters.com/2012/gpg-contracts/ << start there.

08:11:59 williamdunne: It is implemented in reality

08:11:59 ben_vulpes: this is why we must insist on the log-reading, regardless of how cute or female.

08:11:59 justJanne: Especially the "let poor people become poorer" and the "rich become richer" part.

08:11:59 ben_vulpes: neither of which etc etc

08:11:59 williamdunne: Wut?

08:11:59 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes also must give people rope to hang with, it's a tandem process.

08:11:59 ben_vulpes: NO

08:11:59 ben_vulpes: KILL NAO

08:11:59 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> <justJanne> Currently the food production of the world could support 10 billion people. << that's not the point. sure, food could be produced to feed 10, 100, one trillion. does not mean anyone wants more idiots running around. too many as it is. << Speaking about agriculture. Lots of fallow fields this year.

08:11:59 justJanne: After just a dozen generations, your poor will rise up against you.

08:12:12 *: ben_vulpes tries to imagine the wealth of nagants bequeathed after a dozen cycles

08:12:15 williamdunne: justJanne: I shared all of your opinions at first, thought MP was a cock etc. I then had the decency to spend ~9 months reading logs and blogs before speaking

08:12:16 ben_vulpes: honey read logs

08:12:18 ben_vulpes: stop derpin

08:12:36 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo from what i hear a major battle is raging in us agriculture. monsanto vs agrobiz

08:12:39 williamdunne: justJanne: Poor would benefit as much as anyone else, well, the working poor

08:12:43 ben_vulpes: this handle of your'n already burtn

08:12:45 ben_vulpes: burnt

08:12:53 justJanne: williamdunne: I read blogs about it for 3 years.

08:12:58 williamdunne: justJanne: Not about it

08:13:04 williamdunne: The blogs here

08:13:07 williamdunne: Scoopbots reading list

08:13:08 mircea_popescu: about something else masquerading as it.

08:13:10 justJanne: And it made me even more convinced it is a great system in theory. Not in reality.

08:13:22 justJanne: No, literally your ideas and statements.

08:13:25 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes also must give people rope to hang with, it's a tandem process. << maybe next cycle i can refrain

08:13:26 mircea_popescu: you've done what a hacker news reader would do, reading the usg piece instead of my piece and imagining "oh i read about crypto"

08:13:29 mircea_popescu: no, you have not.

08:13:32 justJanne: I even read dozens of logs of the chat before.

08:13:44 mircea_popescu: it doesn't show, somehow.

08:13:52 williamdunne: justJanne: No, you haven't

08:13:56 justJanne: Because I still don't believe it is a good idea.

08:13:57 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: There's always the lover's quarrels with those two. Could just be phosphorous is getting expensive...

08:14:07 mircea_popescu: no, not because of what you believe. because of how you proceed.

08:14:14 justJanne: One can have an opinion different of yours.

08:14:17 williamdunne: No shit

08:14:25 mircea_popescu: actually everyone does, is the amusing thing.

08:14:25 justJanne: mircea_popescu: I didn't start any process.

08:14:47 justJanne: Someone yesterday asked what's so bad about abolishing the Nordic model.

08:14:50 mircea_popescu: justJanne how you proceed means "how you go about it"

08:14:53 justJanne: That's how the whole thing started.

08:14:59 mircea_popescu: the nordic model consists of being lucky, is all.

08:15:04 justJanne: Since then, I'm just defending the current position.

08:15:06 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how are you even awake

08:15:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137845 << there is your controlling counter justJanne. do you know what the scania thing references ?

08:15:27 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 06:28:51; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137583 << yes. and it only works for as long as there's free herring in the scania straight, or for as long as kennedy is ein berliner and airlifts food for free, or for as long as the north sea oil lasts, or for as long as insane luck rolls keep going. otherwise, fuckall, german peasants were the most unfortunate wretches throughout the intermediate pe

08:15:32 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i don't sleep, i wait.

08:15:44 *: ben_vulpes cowers

08:16:11 justJanne: Ofc I know that shit.

08:16:15 ben_vulpes: <justJanne> If you want total anarchy, go to somalia, they live it. << lol u and somalia

08:16:16 justJanne: Bit that's not the case.

08:16:37 williamdunne: On a similar note, I considered dunne.so and thug.so as alternative to thethug.life

08:16:38 mircea_popescu: what do you mean "it's not the case" ?

08:16:44 ben_vulpes: anyways i got magical tits runnin around i'm off

08:16:46 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1137219 <<< volunteer firemen work for the extra cunt

08:16:46 assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 23:51:02; justJanne: because they are volunteers.

08:16:58 mircea_popescu: davout she's not figured that out yet.

08:17:50 justJanne: >_>

08:18:05 BingoBoingo: <justJanne> Bit that's not the case. << Why do the Greeks and Spaniards work longer hours and yet Krautenvacations are longest vacations?

08:18:32 mircea_popescu: "work" vs work

08:18:41 BingoBoingo: Luck? The benevolent ghost of the Kaiser

08:19:10 justJanne: davout: and what about volunteer librarians? They too?

08:19:14 mircea_popescu: nah, latinos mostly do c style work (figure out the least you can get away with and do less htan that).

08:19:18 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: But it's all calories!

08:19:22 mircea_popescu: justJanne they especially.

08:19:32 justJanne: And volunteer garbage workers?

08:19:44 justJanne: They too?

08:19:47 mircea_popescu: you have any idea what bdsm is ?

08:19:47 trinque: justJanne: you cannot begin to imagine the bore of a planned out life for a male... good fucking god

08:19:56 trinque: seems like it sounds fantastic to you

08:19:58 mircea_popescu: lots of pedos volunteer to be teachers. is scarcely a proof your system works.

08:19:58 davout: justJanne: i don't know lol, you were talking about firemen, guess they're bored or something, but then again, you don't only see volunteer librarians in societies that "work well"

08:20:10 trinque: everyone has their place!

08:20:23 williamdunne: Some in the gutter..

08:20:29 justJanne: True. But it shows that people have the will and ability to do good without pay.

08:20:31 mircea_popescu: trinque you think it's a gender issue ? i dun think she's old enough yet.

08:20:45 davout: justJanne: just because you don't see what folks get out of a deal doesn't mean they're not getting anything

08:20:47 mircea_popescu: justJanne if it's not worth paying for it wasn't that good in the first place.

08:20:56 mircea_popescu: & what d said.

08:20:57 gribble: Error: "what" is not a valid command.

08:21:01 BingoBoingo: <justJanne> davout: and what about volunteer librarians? They too? << I am a librarian. Volunteering without compensation is a violation of my professional ethics.

08:21:14 williamdunne: Interesting, didn't realise ampersand was a gribble thing

08:21:26 davout: BingoBoingo: don't you get to steal a TP roll a day already?

08:21:27 trinque: mircea_popescu: could just as well be something taught to everyone, that risk is terrible and to be avoided

08:21:28 justJanne: BingoBoingo: then you'd have a hard time here, 90% of all librarians are volunteers.

08:21:32 mircea_popescu: gribble's a control sequence slut. CSS

08:21:42 mircea_popescu: trinque and yet she is here.

08:22:10 davout: justJanne: you underestimate the percentage of people that would do anything to merely get some social interaction, aka feel lonely

08:22:29 mircea_popescu: ESPECIALLY in societies that "Work well" by old woman standards.

08:22:30 BingoBoingo: justJanne: Seeing as the library profession here requires a graduate degree it wouldn't be sustainable here.

08:22:37 mircea_popescu: such as "northern countries" w/e that may mean.

08:23:07 justJanne: That's no issue, davout. Such immaterial payments are just what I originally meant.

08:23:09 trinque: so they're all already smashed into obedience, and were born there

08:23:16 mircea_popescu: amusingly, the only place where that model is actually sustainable is... israel.

08:23:18 trinque: so yeah the cell's fine whatever, sun's shining out there today

08:23:32 mircea_popescu: where the old woman doctrine has the nice counterpart of the freely provided fun stuff to do by the palestinians.

08:23:44 mircea_popescu: if those schmucks had any idea about their important place in keeping adlai happy...

08:24:05 mircea_popescu: justJanne do you read french ?

08:24:23 justJanne: Not really, I didn't take it as 3rd or 4th language in school

08:24:35 mircea_popescu: a, that's a pity.

08:24:36 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137366 <<< top kek

08:24:36 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:14:48; hanbot: how about jealous wives?

08:24:55 mircea_popescu: i lol'd too >D

08:25:11 davout: srsly, catching up with log, you guys have been going for like 8 hours now?

08:25:18 mircea_popescu: she's insatiable.

08:25:25 davout: haha

08:25:33 mircea_popescu: we're reduced to taking turns and losing sleep.

08:25:39 justJanne: I have no issue explaining people why removing the Nordic model would be bad.

08:25:41 mircea_popescu: which is thefundamental problem with manhood.

08:25:51 justJanne: I've slept 3h and skipped 2 lectures -.-

08:26:15 mircea_popescu: justJanne so far you've not considered the part where it is already collapsing on its own, bnecause it doesn't work, because it's strictly based on getting lucky.

08:26:17 mircea_popescu: VERY lucky.

08:26:19 BingoBoingo: No wonder the Greeks are taking over the EU's jools

08:26:46 justJanne: True.

08:26:56 mircea_popescu: well, you need a system that works without assumptions.

08:27:11 justJanne: Germany can only have a positive state household by exploiting southern Europe.

08:27:16 justJanne: Which is not a good thing.

08:27:17 mircea_popescu: sure, if you get a shitton of oil when oil's valuable / fish when fish is valuable etc, the "nordic model" is a great way to share it.

08:27:21 mircea_popescu: what do you do when you don't ?

08:27:22 williamdunne: I'm impressed with how quick shes climbing the stats

08:27:24 justJanne: So, like you said, we need to reduce it.

08:27:44 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Share the dead bodies

08:28:08 mircea_popescu: williamdunne people generally don't wish to accept that nazism was absolutely unavoidable, FOR THIS REASON

08:28:17 justJanne: mircea_popescu: the Nordic model is possible without any valuable resources.

08:28:26 justJanne: As seen in places like Switzerland.

08:28:26 mircea_popescu: purely economic. as hitler actually pointed out : we don't have enough land to exploit. either we fight or "the way of life" has to change.

08:28:37 justJanne: And the solution for that was:

08:28:39 mircea_popescu: justJanne are you kidding ? switzerland is exploiting a resource

08:28:42 justJanne: High tech industry.

08:28:49 williamdunne: mircea_popescu when you're willing to accept that theft is okay, how many more steps is murder? Europe and the US already murders vast quantities of people in Africa

08:28:53 mircea_popescu: banking, mostly. but the us raped them.

08:29:07 justJanne: True.

08:29:13 mircea_popescu: williamdunne "murder". in the immortal words of butch, "if he were a better boxer he'd still be alive"

08:29:35 justJanne: I'll brb

08:29:52 mircea_popescu: justJanne don't die over b-a hon. it's eternal, will be here when you're 69, too.

08:30:08 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: I largely agree, Africa doesn't have much going for it but I do think it stands a chance of doing a helluva lot better without various EU/US laws.

08:30:52 mircea_popescu: williamdunne one of the most amusing things, to me, is that the entire "black domination" subtrend in porn is driven almost entirely by white men.

08:31:09 mircea_popescu: it's like... we're so far ahead of the curve, we will PRETEND to be playing all others' hands, too. because... w/e.

08:31:09 williamdunne: cuckold too

08:31:35 mircea_popescu: certainly.

08:32:21 williamdunne: But do you not think that without various shitty laws preventing any African from doing something other than eating dirt?

08:32:32 williamdunne: i.e AML bullshit, trade sanctions/restrictions etc

08:32:42 mircea_popescu: you vastly overrepresent their reach.

08:33:01 mircea_popescu: pretty much everyone in the civilised world (us and eu excluded) lives fine without ever touching those.

08:33:36 williamdunne: Sure, but they put someone without money at a disadvantage

08:33:59 williamdunne: *further

08:34:27 mircea_popescu: but anyway, to round off the "social marketplace" thing : if one is to reclassify slave labour as "voluntaryism", which is undoubtedly erroneous but nevertheless coherent with the presupositions proposed, then sure, i am a champion of "the northern model"

08:34:49 williamdunne: Don't think we all should be equal in fairyland but creating additional barriers is about the equivalent of kicking a man while he is down

08:34:56 mircea_popescu: williamdunne someone without money has the disadvantage of not what to spend and the advantage of not having what to protect.

08:36:05 williamdunne: Ofc

08:36:27 mircea_popescu: you ever play cards ?

08:36:56 williamdunne: Only in the drunken manner, not the competitive

08:37:33 mircea_popescu: mkay. so take poker. a very simple description of poker is that you can either play hooker or bluffer. to play hooker you need card superiority, and try to trick your opponent into paying.

08:37:45 mircea_popescu: to play bluffer you nbeed card inferiority, and try to trick your opponent into folding.

08:38:12 mircea_popescu: now, if one's afore-decided they will be bluffing, a) they won't make very good poker players and b) any hand they get can "put them at a disadvantage".

08:38:20 mircea_popescu: because it's not what they expected / wish to play / etc.

08:38:35 mircea_popescu: why should this matter ? play the fucking hand. you adjust to fit it, not the other way around.

08:39:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81200 @ 0.00028126 = 22.8383 BTC [-] {2}

08:40:09 williamdunne: In this case its more like the bluffer having to play with a different set of superiority rules

08:40:31 mircea_popescu: how would that work ? does being rich change thermodynamics or something ?

08:40:40 mircea_popescu: rich man's bridge will collapse just like poor man's bridge will.

08:41:13 mircea_popescu: but yes, the set of rules that control the game are different for hookers and bluffers. for hookers, the rules that control are "A > K > Q" etc.

08:41:24 mircea_popescu: for bluffers, "you don't get to see my cards if you fold"

08:41:29 mircea_popescu: so yes, different. necessarily so.

08:41:44 williamdunne: Sure, but I don't think it's a very controversial idea that various rules such as the AML set put entire regions of people at a disadvantage

08:41:56 mircea_popescu: depends in what terms.

08:42:01 williamdunne: Well

08:42:13 mircea_popescu: obviously, if you refuse to trade with putin, this puts "putin as seen through our trade with him" at a disadvantage.

08:42:28 mircea_popescu: but then putin turns around, alligns with china economically in exchange for support for his "regions of eurasia" political model

08:42:31 mircea_popescu: and you're well fucked.

08:42:38 williamdunne: If I want to start a business in the UK, I can pretty easily sell my product wherever the fuck I want. Banks are willing to work with me, that will be fine. If I was from random-istan not so much

08:42:51 mircea_popescu: or, alternatively, you discontinue support for israel and so the saudis no longer have what to fear so they dump your alliance.

08:42:58 mircea_popescu: no, you can't.

08:42:59 mircea_popescu: try this.

08:43:13 mircea_popescu: you can't sell in randomistan anymore than randomistan can sell in the uk.

08:43:24 williamdunne: Well, various African shitholes don't help themselves and won't allow foreigners to open accounts

08:43:28 williamdunne: But this is their own fault

08:43:32 mircea_popescu: ...

08:43:40 mircea_popescu: but you see how this is entirely you calling things names ?

08:43:44 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Well yes, thats what I'm talking about but the reverse

08:43:44 mircea_popescu: from their pov it's backwards.

08:44:06 mircea_popescu: "oh, that's because uk shithole won't help itself and won't allow foreigners to whatever"

08:44:26 mircea_popescu: why do you think the empire's been going to shit for a century ?

08:44:29 williamdunne: Okay I see what you mean, but the UK needs it less

08:44:38 mircea_popescu: africa at least is more or less where it was in 1880.

08:44:47 mircea_popescu: the uk... god help it. no country in memory sunk as bad as they have.

08:44:55 mircea_popescu: germany's pretty much recovered, the uk will never recover.

08:45:30 williamdunne: Probably, then again we are largely responsible for modern socialism, so what do you expect?

08:45:41 williamdunne: London subsidises the rest of the country anyway

08:45:43 mircea_popescu: i dun expect, just putting things in perspective :)

08:46:01 williamdunne: Well, that was more directed at an onlooker

08:46:03 williamdunne: rather than you

08:46:04 williamdunne: But yeah

08:46:06 mircea_popescu: yeah they do, lmao, which is outright ridiculous. all good things are supposed to flow TO the city, not from it.

08:46:17 mircea_popescu: and even WITH all that huge expenditure, scotland wants more and nearly seceded.

08:46:39 mircea_popescu: which was one of the lulziest things i saw that year.

08:46:42 williamdunne: Precisely, I've been ranting far too often recently about how London should tell the rest of the UK to fuck off

08:46:44 williamdunne: Yes

08:46:47 williamdunne: I hoped they would do it

08:47:01 williamdunne: Remove one of the parasites

08:47:05 mircea_popescu: well, it can't. because the one remaining hanging nail on the historical uk is the coupla nuke subs the us allows them to keep

08:47:08 mircea_popescu: and they're in glasgow.

08:47:09 mircea_popescu: so..

08:47:14 mircea_popescu: just pay the dizzy sluts more :D

08:47:38 mircea_popescu: which you know... scotland's going to oh so judiciously use

08:47:40 williamdunne: I would imagine that they'd be moved to Plymouth or Bristol or summin

08:47:51 mircea_popescu: btw, you familiar with the hilarious history of the scottish new world settlement thing ?

08:48:01 williamdunne: Nope, shall I have a google?

08:48:06 mircea_popescu: by all means.

08:48:09 mircea_popescu: top keks in there.

08:48:25 mircea_popescu: "darien scheme"

08:51:29 justJanne: Meh.

08:51:35 justJanne: I hope the UK leaves the EU.

08:51:44 justJanne: It would finally kill their economy

08:52:15 mircea_popescu: if they leave the eu they join the us.

08:52:21 justJanne: As their economy right now is "European companies open an Ltd in London"

08:52:30 williamdunne: "Returning to Edinburgh, the Company of Scotland for Trading to Africa raised £400,000 sterling in a few weeks (equivalent to roughly £46 million today),[b] with investments from every level of society, and totaling about a fifth of the wealth of Scotland.[7][8] It was, for Scotland, a massive amount of capital.[9]"

08:52:34 mircea_popescu: uk as an independent state is about as ludicrous today as the kingdom of scotland was in 1715

08:52:39 williamdunne: justJanne: London actually matters

08:52:46 williamdunne: justJanne: Rest of the UK... not so much

08:52:54 justJanne: That's noticeable.

08:53:02 williamdunne: But it likely won't matter nearly as much outside of EU

08:53:06 mircea_popescu: only matters because it's a relative tax heaven from the patently insane french (and german) communists.

08:53:08 mircea_popescu: 50% my foot.

08:53:09 justJanne: Outside of London, the average waiting time for an ambulance is 4 hours.

08:53:19 justJanne: Exactly.

08:53:32 williamdunne: Currently if you set up a financial company in the EU, the standard procedure is London

08:53:34 justJanne: Wait until the UK leaves, and their tax-haven-economy breaks down.

08:53:44 mircea_popescu: justJanne you know i pay 3% in romania.

08:53:50 mircea_popescu: also eu member.

08:53:53 justJanne: Yes.

08:53:54 justJanne: See?

08:54:02 mircea_popescu: there is NEVER going to be a way for the bs taxation of socialists to be enforced. ever.

08:54:04 justJanne: The tax haven will move to Romania, or Liechtenstein.

08:54:13 justJanne: But London will be piss poor.

08:54:15 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Wrote another article about that the other day, not too good though

08:54:23 williamdunne: justJanne: Yes, I agree if it leaves the EU

08:54:28 williamdunne: Gibraltar might be good

08:54:37 williamdunne: I could imagine a fair amount moving there

08:54:51 justJanne: Gibraltar is UK, would also leave.

08:54:51 mircea_popescu: might just as well move here.

08:55:06 justJanne: I hope the UK leaves the EU.

08:55:11 mircea_popescu: b,tmsro~ only charges 0.1% after all.

08:55:14 justJanne: So the Brits see the shit Cameron is doing.

08:55:32 williamdunne: justJanne: It could probably work its way in there either way, IoM for example is not EU dependent

08:55:59 williamdunne: justJanne: We can choose between Cameron or Labour, at least Cameron doesn't want to remove our main advantage.. being a tax haven

08:56:20 justJanne: Yup. FPTP sucks.

08:56:30 williamdunne: Proportional representation sucks worse

08:56:35 williamdunne: Thats how you get communists

08:56:38 justJanne: And?

08:56:52 justJanne: You also get right-wingers,

08:56:55 williamdunne: And I like the current availability of toilet paper

08:56:57 justJanne: Liberals, and communists.

08:57:01 justJanne: At the same time.

08:57:13 williamdunne: My hand might be as soft as loo roll, but its not too hygienic

08:57:14 justJanne: At least parliament debates are fun with all of them at once.

08:57:35 mircea_popescu: lol

08:57:38 mircea_popescu: she has a point there.

08:57:45 mircea_popescu: that's how the shoe incidents happen

08:57:46 williamdunne: Indeed

08:57:51 williamdunne: lol

08:58:34 justJanne: And more democratic, cause the government won't risk ignoring the 7% people who voted liberals, nor the 7% who voted communist, as if they'd ignore them, those parties would just start a fight in Parliament.

08:58:37 williamdunne: The problem is the UK is mostly shit, as we have discussed. And the shit areas would be far more likely to vote Communist

08:58:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95396 @ 0.00027971 = 26.6832 BTC [-]

08:58:47 williamdunne: justJanne: Ignoring is the right action

08:58:57 justJanne: Nah.

08:59:01 mircea_popescu: depends which %.

08:59:07 justJanne: Let liberals and communists fight in parliament.

08:59:10 mircea_popescu: 99% of the 1%s you can ignore. the other 1%...

08:59:22 justJanne: The winner of the box fight gets to make a paw.

08:59:23 justJanne: *law

08:59:35 trinque: so you get an incomprehensible society

08:59:47 mircea_popescu: justJanne that there is an apparent need for new laws already invalidates the entire proposition of having a state in the first place.

08:59:57 mircea_popescu: either come up with a contract and stick to it, or go home.

09:00:08 justJanne: mircea_popescu: not really — most of the laws are adapting existing situations.

09:00:10 mircea_popescu: im not going for these ARM bankruptcy mortgage deals.

09:00:11 mircea_popescu: no.

09:00:21 justJanne: Yes?

09:00:23 mircea_popescu: either you have the whole contract written down, or i'm not signing.

09:00:28 mircea_popescu: and you don't get to have a state.

09:00:50 mircea_popescu: no parliament has the authority to make new law. ever.

09:00:54 justJanne: Again, if you want, you can move out.

09:01:00 mircea_popescu: no, you move out.

09:01:13 justJanne: Unless the majority is for a law.

09:01:14 williamdunne: If you don't move out of Germany I will rape you

09:01:20 mircea_popescu: i don't care if it's unanimity.

09:01:26 mircea_popescu: you're taking your stupid shit to somewhere not near me.

09:01:29 justJanne: Then the minority can decide if they want to move out or accept it.

09:01:33 mircea_popescu: mnope.

09:01:40 mircea_popescu: the majority can make sense or get lost.

09:01:43 justJanne: So start a rebellion.

09:01:54 williamdunne: In which case you get shot

09:01:55 mircea_popescu: and here we are.

09:01:55 justJanne: We'll see how it works out. Hint: it won't.

09:02:04 mircea_popescu: i've been in open rebellion for years now.

09:02:04 justJanne: Meh.

09:02:05 mircea_popescu: works just fine.,

09:02:13 mircea_popescu: and if it doesn't, fuckall and i dun care.

09:02:20 justJanne: Open rebellion?

09:02:26 justJanne: So, you don't pay taxes or anything?

09:02:27 williamdunne: Public in other words

09:02:47 justJanne: Or do you support the parliament that, according to you, never should make new laws?

09:02:47 williamdunne: He pays taxes to the most serene republic IIRC

09:02:53 mircea_popescu: justJanne http://fraudsters.com/2014/interacting-with-fiat-institutions-a-guide/ < start there.

09:03:53 williamdunne: +1

09:03:53 williamdunne: And then GPG contracts

09:03:53 williamdunne: Kinda explains the no-laws thing

09:04:02 williamdunne: http://fraudsters.com/2012/gpg-contracts/

09:05:03 justJanne: Ah, that kind of "I question your authority" letter.

09:05:03 mircea_popescu: but anyway : i, personally, pay no taxes. agents i own pay taxes in the jurisdictions i've incorporated them in, as you'd expect.

09:05:03 mircea_popescu: which is what the deal is.

09:05:03 mircea_popescu: and if the deal changes, they dissolve an' that's that.

09:05:03 justJanne: Ah.

09:05:03 justJanne: So, are you using roads? Water supply?

09:05:16 williamdunne: Pisses in rivers

09:05:23 mircea_popescu: i am buying access to anything i feel like.

09:05:51 justJanne: Do you use any public roads?

09:05:54 justJanne: I ask again.

09:05:56 mircea_popescu: certainly.

09:06:05 justJanne: Then you are committing theft.

09:06:09 mircea_popescu: according to whom ?

09:06:13 justJanne: As you stated before you aren't paying for them.

09:06:17 williamdunne: Retard

09:06:19 williamdunne: lol

09:06:22 mircea_popescu: are you commiting theft when those volunteer firemen come put your hair out ?

09:06:30 justJanne: No.

09:06:39 williamdunne: "Who will build the roads!11"

09:06:44 mircea_popescu: but you were extolling the virtues of not paying for their work a moment ago.

09:06:47 justJanne: But the roads in the country you live in are for you to use, in return you pay taxes.

09:06:52 williamdunne: If private companies can't build roads, they shouldn't exist

09:06:56 mircea_popescu: i don't recall signing this deal.

09:06:59 williamdunne: The state removed the market for them

09:07:02 justJanne: Ofc private companies can build roads.

09:07:07 justJanne: They do all the time.

09:07:21 williamdunne: Ok, well state enforced monopoly doesn't justify theft, no more than my ejaculate justifies rape

09:07:24 mircea_popescu: the notion that some govt owns the roads, seriously...

09:07:27 justJanne: A danish private company just builds a tunnel to Germany right now.

09:07:32 mircea_popescu: listen, is merkel paying you for using the public space ?

09:08:14 williamdunne: justJanne: Right, this is the point. We didn't choose for Gov to build roads and would pay tolls if owned by private companies

09:08:23 justJanne: See?

09:08:27 williamdunne: Well, I would

09:08:28 justJanne: Taxes are just tolls, too.

09:08:31 mircea_popescu: no.

09:08:34 williamdunne: No, they aren't

09:08:34 justJanne: Yes.

09:08:36 mircea_popescu: GOTTA SIGN A DEAL!11

09:08:41 justJanne: No.

09:08:42 mircea_popescu: you don't get to foist some random "law" on me.

09:08:46 justJanne: There are implicit deals.

09:08:50 mircea_popescu: you come up with a deal, if i agree you get away with it.

09:08:50 justJanne: Like ToS.

09:08:53 mircea_popescu: no such thing.

09:08:58 williamdunne: I click "I agree to the ToS"

09:09:02 justJanne: Not always.

09:09:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19050 @ 0.00029061 = 5.5361 BTC [+]

09:09:07 williamdunne: I don't click "I agree to give up 40% of my income"

09:09:13 mircea_popescu: there.is.no.such.thing.as."implicit".deals.

09:09:18 justJanne: Did you click "I agree to Freenode"'s ToS, ever?

09:09:28 williamdunne: I drive onto a tollroad, pay them for that

09:09:30 justJanne: And still you are subject to them.

09:09:33 mircea_popescu: justJanne listen, you agree women that dress sluttily should be fucked byu whoever feels like ?

09:09:38 mircea_popescu: because hey, implicit deal.

09:09:40 williamdunne: ^+1

09:09:48 mircea_popescu: they don't want the cock, they shouldn't have clicked the short skirt tos.

09:09:49 justJanne: Oh, THAT argument again.

09:09:58 mircea_popescu: we had it befoar ?

09:10:11 justJanne: Your argument is retarded.

09:10:13 williamdunne: Comparing freenode to government is a little ridiculous, don't you think?

09:10:16 justJanne: Please try to find another one.

09:10:20 mircea_popescu: looky : there are no implicit deals. ever.

09:10:21 justJanne: williamdunne: not really.

09:10:27 williamdunne: justJanne: yes, really

09:10:34 justJanne: How?

09:10:42 williamdunne: Freenode asks for nothing from me

09:10:51 justJanne: Yet.

09:10:58 williamdunne: And if they do I will move

09:11:01 williamdunne: If the deal changes..

09:11:06 justJanne: See?

09:11:09 williamdunne: But moving from freenode is a click

09:11:14 williamdunne: Not a flight, not leaving family etc

09:11:16 justJanne: Same with countries. If the deal changes, you can move.

09:11:21 williamdunne: These two things are not the same

09:11:36 justJanne: Moving from Freenode isn't easy either.

09:11:39 williamdunne: Yes it is

09:11:40 mircea_popescu: whoever changes the deal moves.

09:11:46 mircea_popescu: not he who stayed true.

09:11:46 justJanne: You have to convince all your peers to move, too

09:11:54 mircea_popescu: government wants to change the rules, IT HAS TO MOVE.

09:11:57 justJanne: All your friends, channels, etc.

09:12:11 justJanne: Or leave them behind.

09:12:12 williamdunne: I have to convince people to make some clicks, not hard if freenode implements a tax

09:12:23 justJanne: depends.

09:12:28 justJanne: Look at whatsapp.

09:12:33 justJanne: They introduced a "tax"

09:12:38 justJanne: And people still stayed there.

09:12:44 justJanne: It's a similar situation.

09:12:58 williamdunne: Very different userbase

09:13:00 trinque: the fuck whatsapp is a government now

09:13:02 trinque: stahhhhhp

09:13:04 williamdunne: Apparently

09:13:12 mircea_popescu: the fact that someone did something stupid does not make the stupid thing right.

09:13:27 justJanne: You want governments to sign contracts with all citizen, what's more realistic?

09:13:29 williamdunne: Apparently moving IRC servers and tos are equivalent to the violent rule of gov

09:13:32 mircea_popescu: and what "the people" do or don't do is no basis for either law or sense.

09:13:41 mircea_popescu: justJanne it's not a matter of "realistic"

09:13:44 justJanne: It is the only basis.

09:13:51 mircea_popescu: according to whom ?

09:14:07 justJanne: According to every not-retarded politician, ever?

09:14:14 mircea_popescu: the only realistic thing is to eat raw meat and dress in dead children.

09:14:25 mircea_popescu: nutty bs. who ever asked any politician anything for crying out loud.

09:14:28 justJanne: All politicians who said the opposite ended up as dictators.

09:14:37 williamdunne: mm kinda

09:14:38 williamdunne: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/98/91/41/989141191ba1fcd499973dc4fec66f10.jpg

09:15:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20036 @ 0.00027971 = 5.6043 BTC [-]

09:15:38 mircea_popescu: what are you, going through the non sequitur book in order ?

09:15:38 justJanne: -.-

09:15:38 justJanne: Guys, please take some college courses in economy, politics, and philosophy.

09:15:38 mircea_popescu: "ima call anyone that doesn't promote socialism a dictator and then say that not being socialist makes dictators"

09:15:38 mircea_popescu: sure, it does. well done.

09:15:38 mircea_popescu: might as well have the same argument about believing in christ and move to 1555 to be a nun.

09:15:38 williamdunne: I want no leaders = dictator

09:15:38 justJanne: It's hard to argue with you when you ask the same questions over and over again, and just goalpost all he time

09:15:38 davout: justJanne: you sure have lots of stamina points

09:15:56 williamdunne: davout: she's burning mana for the energy regen spell

09:16:21 mircea_popescu: justJanne the reason it is hard to argue is because the list of places where your ideas fail is about eighteen entries long by now, and you're not directly interested in examining the holes and fixing your head, but instead would prefer us to somehow accept the nonsense.

09:16:37 mircea_popescu: try the other tack, it'll go a lot easier.

09:16:56 justJanne: There are holes, but the result still works better than any alternative.

09:17:06 justJanne: Again, I have no issue with your system.

09:17:16 justJanne: If you want, you can try it as a state.

09:17:24 justJanne: Declare independency, make your own laws.

09:17:27 williamdunne: We're already doing so

09:17:31 williamdunne: *Have done

09:17:31 williamdunne: Well

09:17:32 mircea_popescu: this is kinda old by now, but yes.

09:17:32 justJanne: We'll see in 30 years how it ends.

09:17:37 williamdunne: I say we, I'm not involved

09:17:52 mircea_popescu: if there's still a germany in 30 years, it may see how itshould behave and copy us, yes.

09:17:58 williamdunne: justJanne: http://thebitcoin.foundation/declaration.txt

09:18:58 mircea_popescu: if there isn't, a well. you're lucky enough to have come in early.

09:18:58 justJanne: In other news,

09:18:58 williamdunne: justJanne: Declaration of sovereignty

09:18:58 justJanne: Denmark stopped printing cash last week.

09:18:58 mircea_popescu: williamdunne quick : what's the difference between "Declaration of sovereignty" and "Declaration of independence" ?

09:18:58 justJanne: From 2017 on, Denmark plans to do everything via digital money transfers.

09:18:58 trinque: where's danielpbarron, it's the mark of the beast

09:18:58 justJanne: No matter how, or using what currency.

09:18:58 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: No clue, tbh

09:19:04 mircea_popescu: the latter recognises the sovereignty of the entity it secedes from. the former does not.

09:19:23 williamdunne: Ah, well I prefer the former in this case then

09:19:35 mircea_popescu: which is how it got to be htere.

09:19:51 mircea_popescu: justJanne you know i use cash almost exclusively ?

09:20:05 mircea_popescu: funny to do here, too, a brick is worth like 800 bucks or so.

09:20:29 davout: justJanne: btw, how did you end up here?

09:20:50 mircea_popescu: hn

09:20:57 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Wondered, can you not get a lot more for your money if you pay with USD? Or would that get you shot?

09:21:10 justJanne: davout: discussion about RSA, tbh.

09:21:15 mircea_popescu: williamdunne official dollar is 8.6 pesos, unoficcial like 13.

09:21:39 mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, they pay like 10% less for 20 dollar bills. only want 100s.

09:21:49 mircea_popescu: which iirc don't even exist in the us.

09:21:55 williamdunne: Wait what?

09:22:04 mircea_popescu: yup

09:22:04 williamdunne: Are they official mintage or..?

09:22:08 mircea_popescu: yup.

09:22:18 williamdunne: Sorta like the £1,000,000 note in the UK I guess

09:22:40 justJanne: mircea_popescu: in Denmark, almost all transfers are digital anyway. As the official system is cheaper, faster, and easier than bitcoin even.

09:22:47 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> which iirc don't even exist in the us. << 100's still exist here

09:22:51 mircea_popescu: and reported. i would never use it.

09:22:54 williamdunne: justJanne: well ofc

09:23:00 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo forcing a point.

09:23:02 williamdunne: justJanne: bitcoin isn't that cheap or fast

09:23:23 williamdunne: Well, it is currently pretty cheap and fast

09:23:30 williamdunne: But it shouldn't be compared to centralized systems

09:23:35 mircea_popescu: the idea that i'd allow a third party to look into my accounts... what the fuck is this, the future ?

09:23:36 williamdunne: Thats just the derpery of governments

09:23:44 BingoBoingo: It prolly won't bee too long before they bring back 100,000 bills with the Woodrow Wilson and everything

09:23:46 justJanne: They aren't really centralized either.

09:23:53 justJanne: More like a web of hundreds of central points

09:24:01 mircea_popescu: that's centralized.

09:24:02 justJanne: While bitcoin has millions of nodes.

09:24:04 williamdunne: Central bank decentralized now?

09:24:23 justJanne: Denmark has no digital central bank — the money flows from node to node.

09:24:32 trinque: the point is the fucking records

09:24:34 justJanne: I can send money to another merchant without it ever touching a bank

09:24:37 trinque: not how many buildings they have

09:24:41 mircea_popescu: i don't think you understand what centralized-decentralized mean.

09:24:56 justJanne: Just because my money is only a cryptographic signature on my credit card.

09:25:13 williamdunne: justJanne: How is current issuance handled then? Banks trusted to issue their authorised balance?

09:25:32 williamdunne: I know in the UK it works with central bank reserve/payment accounts

09:25:40 williamdunne: Which all settlement systems are built on top of

09:25:41 justJanne: Kinda.

09:25:57 justJanne: The thing is, the reason why German debit cards don't work in any other place,

09:25:57 williamdunne: Just another meta layer

09:26:14 justJanne: Is because they store the money as a cryptographically signed transaction history on the card.

09:26:23 trinque: how about less this bullshit and more on the definition of centralized vs decentralized

09:27:12 mircea_popescu: im really curious what'll come of this.

09:27:49 mircea_popescu: clever chick with a head fulla stupid meets #b-a. anyone care to bet on the linecount total ?

09:28:02 trinque: been all day

09:28:08 mircea_popescu: what is it, 1k by now ?

09:28:31 mircea_popescu: 545. nevertheless a record i think ?

09:29:20 williamdunne: From the frequency of messages don't think she even read the GPG contracts etc, let alone historical logs

09:30:02 justJanne: Hmm.

09:30:27 justJanne: I wonder how much calculation power it would take to break 4096-bit RSA.

09:30:52 mircea_popescu: williamdunne skimming, it's how intelligent kids end up coping with school.

09:31:06 mircea_popescu: horrible habit, but what are yo ugoing to do.

09:31:12 mircea_popescu: can't shoot the retards amirite.

09:31:22 williamdunne: I've been trying to break that habit, think I'm about there

09:31:30 justJanne: I mean, a startup in my city sells FPGA clusters that can be used for that (or for crypto mining), and the NSA bought 256 clusters, each should be enough to break AES256 in 2 weeks.

09:31:53 trinque: we're not gonna get a definition of centralized/decentralized

09:32:27 justJanne: decentralized is a system where all nodes are equal.

09:32:27 williamdunne: Too much effort for her to google

09:32:35 williamdunne: ..

09:32:36 justJanne: It's as easy as that.

09:32:41 mircea_popescu: it's not, no.

09:32:48 justJanne: Yes, it is.

09:32:50 williamdunne: Are all nodes in bitcoin equal? News to me

09:33:03 mircea_popescu: justJanne da fuck do you mean "yes it is".

09:33:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36164 @ 0.00027707 = 10.02 BTC [-]

09:33:12 mircea_popescu: what do you take yourself for, some sort of equal or something ?

09:33:18 justJanne: Any homogenous graph is decentralized.

09:33:27 mircea_popescu: that's true for graphs.

09:33:41 justJanne: Every web of nodes is just a graph.

09:33:44 mircea_popescu: but in graph theory, decentralized is a term of art.

09:33:53 mircea_popescu: no, it's not. because the map is not the territory.

09:34:22 justJanne: A web of nodes is a graph, as a graph, per definition, is just a set of nodes, and a set of relations between nodes.

09:34:38 mircea_popescu: do you understand what "the map is not the territory" means ?

09:34:45 trinque: what's the command structure of the society within which your decentralized banks operate?

09:35:40 justJanne: The banks aren't either fully centralized, nor fully decentralized. Anyone can just open a bank, the question is if other banks will accept money from your customers as payment, as they don't know if they can trust your cryptographic signature.

09:35:53 trinque: the fuck is this where they're both or neither

09:36:39 williamdunne: "anyone can just open a bank" < or rly?

09:36:41 justJanne: It's the same as minimum and smallest, two completely different definitions.

09:36:56 mircea_popescu: so what is "Danmarks Nationalbank" then ?

09:37:20 justJanne: I'm currently talking about northern Germany, as I don't know the internals of Denmark, it's the same, though.

09:37:39 justJanne: There is a difference between the printed money and and the way digital money works.

09:37:50 trinque: the whole EU sounds like what they do in portland tech companies

09:37:58 trinque: where everyone smiles and no one's like, your boss, man

09:37:59 justJanne: GeldKarte is one example.

09:38:10 mircea_popescu: you don't know but it's the same ?

09:38:18 justJanne: Person A can pay person B, person B can pay person C

09:38:28 trinque: the banks are totally decentralized because they've got various sub-departments of some huge central authority

09:38:28 justJanne: All this while they are completely offline.

09:38:34 mircea_popescu: trinque depends who's describing it ya know ?

09:38:39 justJanne: Okay, again, please listen.

09:38:47 trinque: of course

09:38:50 trinque: mircea_popescu: ^

09:38:55 justJanne: Imagine we have 3 people, completely offline.

09:38:59 mircea_popescu: okay.

09:39:00 justJanne: A pays person B money.

09:39:06 justJanne: Person B pays person C money.

09:39:12 justJanne: (All through GeldKarte)

09:39:20 mircea_popescu: which is offline throughout.

09:39:28 justJanne: yes.

09:39:33 mircea_popescu: go on.

09:39:37 justJanne: Person C now goes online and can spend the money.

09:39:46 mircea_popescu: what happens in the following scenario :

09:39:55 justJanne: You can transfer money offline, and it is valid.

09:39:59 mircea_popescu: b has no money. a gives him 100 moneys. b sends 100 money to C and 100 money to D.

09:40:07 mircea_popescu: can c and d each now spend 100 ?

09:40:12 justJanne: No.

09:40:15 mircea_popescu: because ?

09:40:27 justJanne: They can't spend anything, as the last two statements are invalid.

09:40:45 justJanne: You have at the beginning 0 money.

09:40:46 mircea_popescu: show, don't tell.

09:40:57 williamdunne: Thats pretty impractical

09:41:07 justJanne: Your card stores a list of cryptographically signed money from the sender.

09:41:23 justJanne: So, I send you money, by sending you a cryptographically signed info "I sent you n money"

09:41:23 mircea_popescu: justJanne yes. so i copy that list and send money to 500 people

09:41:34 justJanne: You can't.

09:41:37 mircea_popescu: because why not ?

09:42:01 justJanne: Copying is prevented through unique salts for each transaction.

09:42:04 mircea_popescu: derp.

09:42:12 mircea_popescu: if i can send money to either a or b

09:42:19 mircea_popescu: then necessarily i can send to both. so i do. what now.

09:42:31 punkman: justJanne: I mean, a startup in my city sells FPGA clusters that can be used for that (or for crypto mining), and the NSA bought 256 clusters, each should be enough to break AES256 in 2 weeks. << lolwut

09:42:34 justJanne: Then the last person receiving it won't be able to use it.

09:42:35 mircea_popescu: i'll tell you what now : whoever gets first online spends it.

09:42:40 williamdunne: justJanne: Do you have a paper or something for this?

09:42:42 punkman: GeldKarte > "This system is protected against double-spending by not allowing the user to read the keys from their smart card."

09:42:45 mircea_popescu: the other fails, the bank gets alerted that this was copied and the police shows up

09:42:52 mircea_popescu: denmark has got a stupid, centralist bitcoin.

09:42:58 justJanne: Yup.

09:43:07 justJanne: It existed 10 years before bitcoin, though.

09:43:08 williamdunne: Oh

09:43:09 mircea_popescu: it will never work. the only reason its not being raped wide open is because atm nobody gives a shit about swine country.

09:43:17 williamdunne: Nevermind, I'll ignore the paper that is derpy

09:43:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69050 @ 0.0002832 = 19.555 BTC [+] {2}

09:43:28 williamdunne: Can you use this card for luxury purchases?

09:43:35 punkman: " Funds cannot move freely within the system. They can move from a bank account (or cash) to a Geldkarte. From there, they can only be moved to a merchant's card and from the merchant's card, they can only go to the merchant's bank account."

09:43:38 mircea_popescu: punkman because this can be done now.

09:43:46 justJanne: that's an old article then.

09:43:50 williamdunne: i.e cars, jewellery etc

09:44:00 justJanne: Or it was a different system.

09:44:11 justJanne: Because we have so many different debit card companies >_>

09:44:16 mircea_popescu: justJanne odds are you just had a superificial understanding of it.

09:44:20 williamdunne: Which surely rely on banks

09:44:32 justJanne: GeldKarte, EC Karte, etc.

09:45:00 justJanne: so, williamdunne, your question:

09:45:10 mircea_popescu: anyway, denmark is probably the best example of usistan. "The worlds largest public sector (30% of the entire workforce on a full-time basis) is financed by the world's highest taxes."

09:45:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28350 @ 0.00028957 = 8.2093 BTC [+]

09:45:25 justJanne: The company is SciEngines GmbH (they have a Wikipedia article)

09:46:27 trinque: man... justJanne you have recalibrated me for tolerating canadians

09:46:37 mircea_popescu: lmao

09:46:59 justJanne: mircea_popescu: the Nordics still pay about the same taxes as the US, but you get free healthcare, free college, welfare, and an almost unregulated market.

09:47:14 justJanne: You pay like 6% more.

09:47:21 mircea_popescu: justJanne how much have you travelled ? outside of the eu i mean

09:47:21 justJanne: Definitely worth it.

09:47:40 justJanne: I haven't travelled outside EU yet. Never had the money to do so.

09:47:53 justJanne: Parents aren't exactly rich xD

09:48:03 mircea_popescu: aha. well the thing is, the books you read are kinda deliberately written so as to make you think you're in the best possible place.

09:48:12 mircea_popescu: what are you doing this summer ?

09:48:19 justJanne: (And no, without free college I couldn't go to university.)

09:48:38 justJanne: This summer? I'll work on several open source projects, like the IRC client I use right now.

09:49:00 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes trinque hey lot, if i buy her plane tickets do you show her portland ? a week or so ?

09:49:05 mircea_popescu: i don't imagine she takes up much space.

09:49:18 trinque: ha sure why not

09:49:23 mircea_popescu: justJanne you wanna go ?

09:49:58 justJanne: Nah thanks, don't wanna go into a country where anyone can be declared terrorist and stripped of their rights

09:50:08 williamdunne: justJanne: Don't need university

09:50:13 trinque: portland would be too capitalist for her

09:50:21 justJanne: (Yes, the laws in Germany apply to all "people", not just citizens)

09:50:30 trinque: there should be a lot less citizens.

09:50:58 justJanne: Already happening.

09:51:14 justJanne: Germany has a child per family rate of 1.4

09:51:22 mircea_popescu: interesting.

09:51:29 justJanne: So far below the replacement rate of 2.25

09:51:35 justJanne: All the Nordics have 1.4, too

09:51:46 mircea_popescu: clearly the system works and is sustainable.

09:51:52 justJanne: Automatically shrinking the population to a point where it is sustainable.

09:51:59 mircea_popescu: perhaps.

09:52:00 williamdunne: Yes, plenty of children to pay for their communist parents

09:52:07 trinque: I don't buy it

09:52:11 mircea_popescu: or to a point where the muslims can just come in and rape you stupid lot into shape.,

09:52:14 mircea_popescu: either way

09:54:28 justJanne: They are already here.

09:54:42 justJanne: 19% of the population are foreigners and migrants

09:55:13 mircea_popescu: how's the female circumcision factor ?

09:55:58 justJanne: Approx 0

09:56:25 justJanne: You don't get it without a degree and a guarantee for a job, and the circumcised people rarely have the qualifications anyway

09:56:31 justJanne: *don't get in

09:57:31 mircea_popescu: http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/female-circumcision-now-a-growing-problem-in-germany/2013/02/06/

09:58:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55299 @ 0.00028957 = 16.0129 BTC [+]

09:58:31 mircea_popescu: Germany is home to at least 24,000 women from African countries who've undergone female circumcision (as reported by DW in 2004)

09:58:31 mircea_popescu: prolly 100k by now ?

09:58:36 chetty: ouch, you makes me squirm

09:58:41 justJanne: Not really.

09:58:41 justJanne: Almost no immigration since then.

09:58:41 justJanne: The largest wave of immigration was in the 70s and 80s

09:58:52 justJanne: So, 24 thousand immigrants are mutilated.

09:59:04 justJanne: And we pay them free healthcare to fix it.

09:59:12 williamdunne: How do you fix it?

09:59:12 mircea_popescu: o you're gonna fix it ?

09:59:21 mircea_popescu: damn i like the nordic model more and more

09:59:25 mircea_popescu: williamdunne shut up they're fixing it.

09:59:28 justJanne: That's no a problem.

09:59:42 williamdunne: Sorry Charles about hacking your head off, I'll stitch it back on in just a jiffy! Universal healthcare ftw

09:59:47 mircea_popescu: chetty imagine, that's like a quarter ton of bits ?

09:59:56 justJanne: Ofc it is shit.

10:00:12 mircea_popescu: justJanne maybe it's good for you, how do you know ?

10:00:18 mircea_popescu: i thought all people should have equal chances.

10:00:19 justJanne: But again, those are immigrants — they moved here decades after they were mutilated.

10:00:30 mircea_popescu: and you know this the same way it was 0, right ?

10:00:41 justJanne: No.

10:00:52 justJanne: But I know this because your quote and your article say it.

10:01:10 justJanne: People, immigrants, from African countries, who got mutilated and then moved here

10:01:43 justJanne: So no, it's not a German issue. We still try to do our best to fix the mistakes someone else did.

10:02:01 davout: the logs are soon going to be harder to catch up on than the very fucking blockchain

10:02:20 williamdunne: Have you looked at name-first log synchronization?

10:02:24 mircea_popescu: davout we just made larger logblocks, how you like it ?

10:02:41 mircea_popescu: justJanne didn't you say all people should be equal ?

10:02:44 davout: well, adoption is on the rise, so what can i say

10:02:47 mircea_popescu: how are these migrants any worse than you ?

10:02:53 mircea_popescu: maybe you should try the mutilation thing.

10:03:36 williamdunne: Socialism to me does seem a lot like the "no kid left behind" school bullshit that appeals to the lowest common denominator and lowers the median

10:03:52 justJanne: You got it wrong.

10:03:54 mircea_popescu: in any case the poor girls without the bits can't grow them back up, so in order for everyone to have equal chances at an orgasm, off with your clit!

10:04:01 justJanne: It lowers the average, but increases the median

10:04:05 mircea_popescu: and because the government can alter the deal, here, it's a new law now.

10:04:08 mircea_popescu: enjoy socialism!

10:04:15 williamdunne: justJanne: Median is average

10:04:18 justJanne: No.

10:04:26 justJanne: Average is the sum divided by the amount.

10:04:27 mircea_popescu: she has a point. it does lower the average but increase the median

10:04:31 mircea_popescu: which is EXACTLY what the problem is.

10:04:32 justJanne: Median is the middle person.

10:04:52 mircea_popescu: places with high medians are places not worth living in.

10:05:01 justJanne: That's what you think.

10:05:02 mircea_popescu: the entire point of life is diferentiation from the median.

10:05:07 mircea_popescu: of course it is, that's why i say it.

10:05:14 justJanne: I think places with low median aren't worth living in.

10:05:22 williamdunne: http://www.purplemath.com/modules/meanmode.htm

10:06:22 mircea_popescu: the difference being that this isn't what you think,

10:06:22 mircea_popescu: just what you've been told to think.

10:06:22 justJanne: williamdunne: please take stochastics 101 at a university,

10:06:22 justJanne: You'll know what mean and average are.

10:06:25 mircea_popescu: stochastics 101 o.O ?!

10:06:36 mircea_popescu: this actually is a thing ?!

10:06:40 williamdunne: Sounds like a musician "Stoch"

10:06:41 justJanne: Introduction into stochastic, yeah.

10:06:45 williamdunne: And he's German most likely

10:06:47 williamdunne: So it fits

10:06:55 justJanne: Theoretical statistics.

10:07:01 mircea_popescu: but this in physics ? as in, stochastics mechanics ?

10:07:09 mircea_popescu: oh.

10:07:09 justJanne: No.

10:07:09 williamdunne: "Did you see Stoch's latest concert? It was Stochastic!"

10:07:13 mircea_popescu: so statistics 101 ?

10:07:16 justJanne: No.

10:07:26 justJanne: Statistics is different.

10:07:30 mircea_popescu: can you link the course ?

10:07:46 justJanne: I'm on mobile, sadly no.

10:07:53 justJanne: Also, it would be in German anyway.

10:07:56 mircea_popescu: !s kiel

10:07:57 assbot: 0 results for 'kiel' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=kiel

10:08:04 mircea_popescu: you may not speak french, but i do read german nooblet.

10:08:46 mircea_popescu: http://www.math.uni-kiel.de/numerik/kallsen/lehre/ss-2015/sem-sto-finmath/sem-sto-finmath.php this ?

10:09:46 justJanne: Nah.

10:09:46 justJanne: That's a master module.

10:09:46 mircea_popescu: ikr ?

10:09:46 justJanne: Uni Köln has a nice transcript.

10:09:46 justJanne: The mathematicians in Kiel still refuse to use calculators or computers.

10:09:46 mircea_popescu: i thought you went to kiel.

10:09:49 justJanne: I do.

10:10:07 justJanne: But Kiel's mathematicians refuse to put anything on the public web.

10:10:20 justJanne: You can get it if you are in their intranet, though.

10:10:21 mircea_popescu: lol

10:10:27 williamdunne: setup a proxy to the intranet

10:10:34 justJanne: They have.

10:10:41 williamdunne: No a public one

10:10:49 justJanne: Nope.

10:10:58 mircea_popescu: what, you want her to end up in aaron schwartz's cell ?

10:11:07 justJanne: As access to the intranet is bound through X.509 to a user account

10:11:28 williamdunne: A university dedicate to not sharing information, not very socialist of them

10:11:40 justJanne: Anyway, we are going way off topic.

10:11:51 williamdunne: Yes, we should be discussing bitcoin assets

10:11:57 davout: justJanne: for like 12 hours now...

10:11:58 justJanne: Not that far.

10:12:20 mircea_popescu: speaking of the broke ass pki, http://blog.trendmicro.com/trendlabs-security-intelligence/a-look-at-the-gnutls-x-509-verification-code-flaw/

10:13:20 justJanne: Anyway, why are we still arguing? I said I have no issue with you trying to build your state system, I just don't believe it will last, and you guys spending 14h trying to convince me the system I like most is shit.

10:14:02 mircea_popescu: the problem isn't that we're going "off topic", as there isn't a topic. the problem is that you very badly suck at most verbal and cognitive tasks. but hopefully we've run the gamut by now.

10:14:24 chetty: I havent read the whole log but I am curious, is anyone trying to convince, or just stating facts?

10:14:39 justJanne: Mostly stating facts.

10:14:49 davout: *ahem*

10:14:55 justJanne: Mostly.

10:15:01 mircea_popescu: most of the discussion flows as "comonly held belief 1" "why" "because 2" "why" "because 3" why" "because 1.1" etc

10:15:44 mircea_popescu: anyway, nothing a summer's worth of lurk moar can't fix.

10:15:46 justJanne: The largest issue is that many people discussed with me, each having different opinions.

10:16:00 williamdunne: Thats what happens when you talk to a group of people

10:16:11 mircea_popescu: we suck at being a cult.

10:16:13 justJanne: And combined, these people's opinions would cancel each other our.

10:16:19 justJanne: *out

10:16:33 mircea_popescu: is it ?

10:16:37 williamdunne: Ey?

10:16:46 justJanne: Yes.

10:17:08 trinque: we are all different forces on different vectors and we cancel out?

10:17:11 justJanne: Some people said, before, people should be held responsible for the decisions of their ancestors, they can even be punished for them.

10:17:25 justJanne: Some others said taxes are bad, because you personally aren't responsible for them.

10:17:35 justJanne: Combined, the statements are nuts.

10:18:26 williamdunne: Some people said, before, people should be held responsible for the decisions of their ancestors, they can even be punished for them. <<< who actually said this, I'm curious about the justification

10:18:28 mircea_popescu: justJanne the impression you get comes from you observing what's being said with too broad a brush.

10:19:05 justJanne: williamdunne: it was used as defense against my argument that "children should have equal chances, no matter if their parents are poor or rich"

10:19:22 mircea_popescu: for instance, i didn't say people should be punished for what ancestors did. you conflated two statements : 1) that you can't expect me to pay for the poor behaviour of one's ancestors and 2) that i punish people by what they are rather than they wish to be.

10:19:28 williamdunne: What was the actual answer, because not giving them equal chances is very different

10:19:29 justJanne: Because I said "people aren't responsible for the actions of their ancestors"

10:19:31 mircea_popescu: these have precise and rather subtle meanings, is all.

10:19:56 justJanne: So, people should be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors.

10:19:59 williamdunne: Yeah thats what I expected

10:19:59 williamdunne: No

10:20:02 mircea_popescu: there's a difference between punishment and responsibility.

10:20:06 justJanne: But they shouldn't.

10:20:17 mircea_popescu: moreover, the situation where you're poor because daddy was a drunk is neither your punishment nor your responsibility.

10:20:21 mircea_popescu: it is, merely, YOUR SITUATION.

10:20:25 mircea_popescu: improve it and that's that.

10:20:26 williamdunne: We're not all equal, but I don't want to make it worse for you

10:20:40 justJanne: Okay, so, mircea_popescu, taxes are the same

10:20:48 mircea_popescu: the same needs two operands.

10:21:04 justJanne: The situation that you live in a place with taxes is neither your punishment nor you'd responsibility.

10:21:12 justJanne: It is, merely, Your situation.

10:21:14 williamdunne: Yes it is

10:21:16 mircea_popescu: i don't live in a place owned by someone else.

10:21:18 williamdunne: Its a punishment

10:21:21 williamdunne: Its an active force

10:21:23 justJanne: How so?

10:21:28 mircea_popescu: what do you mean "how" ?

10:21:31 williamdunne: If you don't pay someone rapes you

10:21:38 justJanne: Where is the difference between having to pay the debts of your parents

10:21:41 williamdunne: If you're poor.. you can't do something, but nothing actually happens

10:21:44 justJanne: And having to pay taxes.

10:21:53 williamdunne: Who says you pay your parents debt?

10:21:54 mircea_popescu: the debts of your parents is a novel development, wasn't discussed before.

10:22:06 justJanne: It is part of the poor debate.

10:22:12 mircea_popescu: apparently it's not.

10:22:16 williamdunne: No it isn't, no one should inherit debt

10:22:20 justJanne: May those debts be monetary, or indirect.

10:22:30 mircea_popescu: you don't get to call any negative number "a debt"

10:22:31 justJanne: williamdunne: and what is with indirect debt?

10:22:34 mircea_popescu: the word has a specific meaning.

10:22:40 williamdunne: What are we calling indirect debt?

10:22:58 justJanne: When your parents are so piss poor you have to work as a child to not starve.

10:23:05 williamdunne: Thats a lack of a think

10:23:09 williamdunne: Debt is a thing you have

10:23:15 williamdunne: Not a lack of a thing

10:23:30 justJanne: Debt is a responsibility of having to pay, yes.

10:23:38 justJanne: But for the person, it is the same.

10:23:56 williamdunne: No, it isn't

10:23:57 mircea_popescu: so a bottle and a penis are, for a flatworm, "the same"

10:24:05 mircea_popescu: doesn't mean you can run around sticking bottles up your ass.

10:24:16 justJanne: Okay, back then.

10:24:22 chetty: <justJanne> When your parents are so piss poor you have to work as a child to not starve.// some might consider that an advantage

10:24:34 justJanne: If you think so.

10:24:43 justJanne: Thing is, of you have to work and can't go to school,

10:24:53 justJanne: You lose something due to the bad choices of your parents.

10:24:56 williamdunne: Did me good

10:25:03 mircea_popescu: justJanne you lose something, gain something else.

10:25:13 justJanne: williamdunne: it shows. It shows very much.

10:25:13 mircea_popescu: that's the way it goes. if you have children, you lose your juvenile figure.

10:25:17 mircea_popescu: if you don't, you don't have children.

10:25:29 justJanne: It's not the same.

10:25:33 justJanne: The question here is:

10:25:49 justJanne: Why is inheriting debts different?

10:25:58 justJanne: You said inheriting debts shouldn't be a thing.

10:25:59 mircea_popescu: because debt flows from a contrat.

10:26:13 justJanne: But inheriting money is okay?

10:26:13 mircea_popescu: and a contract can only be enforced by its parties.

10:26:16 williamdunne: Yes

10:26:23 mircea_popescu: what problem do you see with it ?

10:26:26 trinque: also a contract

10:26:27 justJanne: And what about inheriting stocks?

10:26:28 williamdunne: No one enforces inheritance, its not a contract

10:26:30 williamdunne: give it away

10:26:39 williamdunne: justJanne: Stocks with liability?

10:27:14 mircea_popescu: stocks don't carry liability, nor have they ever.

10:27:18 justJanne: Most stocks are a contract saying that you pay money, in return get a part of the profits and the power over a company.

10:27:27 justJanne: But the contract is specifically signed to you.

10:27:31 mircea_popescu: no. stocks are a contract saying that you PAID money,

10:27:36 mircea_popescu: and forevermore get a share of the company.

10:27:40 justJanne: Yes.

10:27:50 williamdunne: derp on my part

10:27:52 justJanne: But the contract is again bound to you.

10:27:52 mircea_popescu: they are negotiable instruments, just like any other.

10:28:11 justJanne: So, the question is, should inheriting these contracts be possible?

10:28:18 mircea_popescu: the contract is not inherited.

10:28:20 mircea_popescu: it is conveyed.

10:28:22 justJanne: And if yes, why are they so different from debt contracts?

10:28:28 williamdunne: Liability

10:28:49 justJanne: And what about inverse debt?

10:28:57 justJanne: You lend someone money. You die.

10:29:04 *: mircea_popescu perceives the deep, faint marks of ancient saxon legal strictures in the girl's attempt.

10:29:05 justJanne: Can your children force the person to pay?

10:29:11 mircea_popescu: fascinating what cultural nationality turns out to be.

10:29:31 mircea_popescu: justJanne depends how the contract was worded.

10:29:37 mircea_popescu: is it assignable ? have you assigned it to them ?

10:29:45 justJanne: So, then debt is only inheritable in some cases?

10:29:55 mircea_popescu: debt is never inheritable.

10:30:00 justJanne: This creates an issue with williamdunne's comment.

10:30:13 justJanne: Because either contracts are inheritable, or they are not.

10:30:15 williamdunne: justJanne: No it doesn't, you know I meant debt as if in the liability not the asset

10:30:21 mircea_popescu: the fact that i convey a claim against you to him does not mean he inherited it from me.

10:30:25 mircea_popescu: it merely means i conveyed it to him.

10:30:32 justJanne: Debt as a liability and debt as an asset have to be treated the same.

10:30:40 williamdunne: No, they don't

10:30:56 mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure what that aims to mean.

10:31:00 justJanne: So, again,

10:31:06 justJanne: We have a contract between two parties.

10:31:10 mircea_popescu: right.

10:31:21 justJanne: One party can give the contract to another person,

10:31:29 justJanne: But the other party is always bound to it?

10:31:37 justJanne: That sounds very unfair.

10:31:38 mircea_popescu: if the contract is so phrased, yes.

10:31:48 mircea_popescu: hey, lex pacta. you can make a contract say whatever you wish it to say

10:31:55 justJanne: No, you can't.

10:31:57 mircea_popescu: the counterpart being that you can never impose a contract on anyone.

10:32:12 justJanne: If the contract is worded so that it provides and obvious disadvantage for one party, it is void.

10:32:14 mircea_popescu: well obviously i can.

10:32:18 mircea_popescu: not here.

10:32:28 justJanne: In most of the world, yes.

10:32:34 justJanne: For good reason.

10:32:35 mircea_popescu: irrelevant.

10:32:46 justJanne: No.

10:33:04 williamdunne: Yes.

10:33:08 mircea_popescu: in most of the world (defined as africa), females must have their bits cut off.

10:33:11 trinque: dear god europe allows "it's not fair" to dissolve contracts?

10:33:15 mircea_popescu: so what of it. the most of the world can go hang.

10:33:17 davout: cat freenode_\#bitcoin-assets_2015051* | grep justJanne | wc -l

10:33:18 justJanne: Just because the legal system of The most serene dictatorship was written by amateurs doesn't mean it's good.

10:33:19 davout: 967

10:33:21 davout: oO

10:33:22 mircea_popescu: trinque german law, yes.

10:33:40 justJanne: trinque: most European law, yes.

10:33:44 mircea_popescu: justJanne just because you think yourself equal to things you don't understand doesn't make 'em so :D

10:34:07 mircea_popescu: davout you got a bet ?

10:34:24 justJanne: I took several undergrad classes in politics, macroeconomy, and political philosophy, I know what I'm talking about ;P

10:34:25 mircea_popescu: tbh the best part was where she didn't wanna take a trip to the us because satan lives there.

10:34:29 davout: mircea_popescu: howso?

10:34:35 mircea_popescu: readthelogs.pdf

10:34:57 davout: i have, pls to link

10:35:21 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1138739

10:35:21 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 09:49:23; mircea_popescu: justJanne you wanna go ?

10:35:55 mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, we agree. i don't visit the us for the exact same reasons.

10:36:02 mircea_popescu: clearly those undergrad classes are paying off.

10:36:10 justJanne: Yes, they do.

10:36:20 davout: i was referring to "davout you got a bet ?"

10:36:28 chetty: <justJanne> I took several undergrad classes in politics, macroeconomy, and political philosophy, I know what I'm talking about ;P//OH MY

10:36:29 mircea_popescu: oh oh. i got that, too.

10:36:30 *: davout puts ms office paperclip costume on

10:36:42 davout: "DID YOU MEAN, 'A BED' ?"

10:36:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26963 @ 0.00029017 = 7.8239 BTC [+] {2}

10:36:43 justJanne: Most other people would have fallen for your propagandistic claims.

10:37:25 *: williamdunne tips fedora

10:37:52 mircea_popescu: davout http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1138620

10:37:52 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 09:27:49; mircea_popescu: clever chick with a head fulla stupid meets #b-a. anyone care to bet on the linecount total ?

10:38:08 davout: oic

10:38:25 mircea_popescu: justJanne wait wut ?

10:38:28 davout: i kind of expected more tbh

10:38:35 mircea_popescu: 1k's not bad.

10:38:50 davout: yea, i probably suck at such estimates

10:39:02 williamdunne: “Just to be clear, I’m not a professional ‘politician’. I’m just a german teenager who greatly values her intelligence and political fact over any silly idea conjured up some years ago. This being said, I am open to any and all criticism.

10:39:02 williamdunne: ‘In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any popescu’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence and state-funded education system.’"

10:39:03 davout: i have like less than half this for may

10:39:04 mircea_popescu: and, in a fascinating turn of what sexism really is, remember that one time when ben_vulpes had a friend over, about the same age, about the same ideas and i bit his head off ?

10:39:09 mircea_popescu: apparently it pays being female.

10:39:28 mircea_popescu: williamdunne wait wut ?

10:39:52 justJanne: The issue is that most women prefer social stability over the chance to get rich.

10:40:09 mircea_popescu: this is not an issue, for as long as they understand that this is ok for them and unpleasant for others.

10:40:22 mircea_popescu: and they wear heels.

10:40:26 justJanne: Most people here agree on this, though.

10:40:34 mircea_popescu: this=?

10:40:50 justJanne: The stuff most women prefer in general,

10:40:52 mircea_popescu: dun make those statements, they're stupid things for stupid people. here, this, blah.

10:40:56 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1139014

10:40:56 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 10:34:24; justJanne: I took several undergrad classes in politics, macroeconomy, and political philosophy, I know what I'm talking about ;P

10:40:56 williamdunne: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1139030

10:40:56 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 10:36:43; justJanne: Most other people would have fallen for your propagandistic claims.

10:40:57 justJanne: Is preferred by most of society here.

10:41:03 justJanne: Anyway,

10:41:05 justJanne: Interestingly, you should read about the veil of ignorance.

10:41:12 justJanne: It's a nice thought experiment.

10:41:13 mircea_popescu: justJanne "most of society" that gets a voice, which is bored women.

10:41:34 justJanne: And, interestingly, this thought experiment almost always ends in the Nordic model.

10:41:39 justJanne: The thought experiment is:

10:41:44 mircea_popescu: you seriously contemplate teh notion i'm not aware of "veil of ignorance" etc ?

10:41:53 justJanne: Oh, cool.

10:42:05 justJanne: So, assuming this experiment, how can you be for an anarchist society,

10:42:15 justJanne: When you yourself might end up a piss poor person?

10:42:21 mircea_popescu: you think i care ?

10:42:24 williamdunne: I'm not familiar, give me a mo'

10:42:33 justJanne: Okay:

10:42:41 williamdunne: When you yourself might end up a piss poor person? << being well off isn't left to chance

10:42:46 mircea_popescu: i built more fortunes thjan you had boyfriends to date

10:42:49 mircea_popescu: and burned just as many.

10:43:01 mircea_popescu: being poor is only a problem if you belong there. otherwise, it's like being dirty.

10:43:03 mircea_popescu: washes right off.

10:43:05 justJanne: How would you design a society, assuming you have to live in it later, you can be any person in it, it is random.

10:43:18 mircea_popescu: i don't believe in this cultural warfare bs.

10:43:26 williamdunne: justJanne: Everyone executed except the rich

10:43:29 mircea_popescu: people are not "random", leaves in the wind at the mercy of 1984-esque government.

10:43:41 justJanne: Of course most people end up designing a society where everyone has enough to live, but also has chance to become rich.

10:43:51 mircea_popescu: you don't follow the important point.

10:43:53 justJanne: Which is the Nordic model.

10:43:59 mircea_popescu: again : people are not rootless, leaves in the wind of "society".

10:45:13 mircea_popescu: to propose that you can randomly switch people around as if they were interchangeable parts is already to introduce socialism as a given

10:45:22 mircea_popescu: socialism is not only not a given, it is the system of organised stupidity.

10:45:44 mircea_popescu: and no matter what happens, you can't be me. maybe being you is still cool and worth being. maybe it isn't.

10:45:52 mircea_popescu: if it isn't your'e fucked, because that's what you'll ever be.

10:46:13 justJanne: The idea is to create a society where every person has an acceptable life.

10:46:32 mircea_popescu: that idea is about on par with "i wonder if superman could beat batman"

10:46:39 mircea_popescu: idle masturbation for the infantile mind.

10:46:54 justJanne: The difference is, it works.

10:47:06 mircea_popescu: like collodial silver works :

10:47:07 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Thats actually becoming a film I think

10:47:18 mircea_popescu: if you take the vouches of idiots seriously, it works, sure.

10:47:26 mircea_popescu: williamdunne im sure.

10:47:36 justJanne: No.

10:47:45 mircea_popescu: teh lady doth say no too much.

10:47:52 williamdunne: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2975590/

10:48:52 justJanne: Take for example my father, no money, piss poor. Would have had no money for studying. But also not able to work heavy work.

10:48:52 justJanne: Thanks to free education, he studied law.

10:48:52 williamdunne: justJanne: Don't mistake this for being a channel where everyone had rich parents

10:48:52 justJanne: Without free education, he couldn't have ever afforded it.

10:48:52 mircea_popescu: justJanne so he studied law and you still need the state to put you through college ?

10:49:01 mircea_popescu: apparently with education he never got very far ?

10:49:11 williamdunne: Too many lawyers, education diluted the market I'm guessing

10:49:24 mircea_popescu: williamdunne nah, in germany being a lawyer is like being a clerk.

10:49:26 justJanne: No, the issue is a different one.

10:49:29 mircea_popescu: they make jack shit.

10:49:51 mircea_popescu: none of that 10mn / year + benefits.

10:49:54 williamdunne: Gender Studies a better option?

10:49:56 justJanne: Also, there are different kinds of lawyers.

10:50:15 mircea_popescu: williamdunne socialism, so: everything an equally shitty option, but

10:50:23 justJanne: There are also corporal lawyers working in companies writing legal terms for contracts all day long.

10:50:23 mircea_popescu: "hey, be thankful for the little you get" and all that jazz.

10:50:31 mircea_popescu: justJanne corporate.

10:50:53 williamdunne: It’s not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the ‘right’ to education, the ‘right’ to health care, the ‘right’ to food and housing. That’s not freedom, that’s dependency. Those aren’t rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.

10:50:56 justJanne: He could have worked as legal attorney,

10:51:18 justJanne: But he preferred the stable job in a company over the risk of having to depend on clients.

10:51:23 mircea_popescu: heh.

10:51:33 mircea_popescu: well, don't you think he should be ashamed of himself, in front of you ?

10:51:40 justJanne: Nah.

10:51:41 mircea_popescu: other people's dads did a lot better, unlike his lazy ass.

10:51:47 justJanne: He did the right thing.

10:51:52 mircea_popescu: i'd hold him up to task.

10:52:05 davout: aaand we broke 1000

10:52:07 mircea_popescu: you wanna be ~my~ father, you shoulda done a shitload better than this stupid shit.

10:52:21 williamdunne: Being risk averse isn't a good idea generally speaking, if you want to be succeeding at anything.

10:52:50 justJanne: Being risk averse is a very stable solution, though.

10:52:54 mircea_popescu: i can't stand it in people, and especially not in men. imagine the unbearable conversation of someone who prefers the stability of bureaucratism and "not having to depend on clients"

10:53:06 mircea_popescu: aka im too lazy to do a good job.

10:53:11 williamdunne: 'Conversation'

10:53:14 justJanne: This is Germany. The place where people will wait at an empty crosswalk at 3am on Sunday.

10:53:26 mircea_popescu: justJanne i'm just forcing a point.

10:53:41 justJanne: Stability and safety über allies.

10:53:43 justJanne: *alles

10:54:01 mircea_popescu: the signs of a dead civilisation.

10:54:18 mircea_popescu: you ever read nietzsche btw ?

10:54:37 williamdunne: Safety is the precedent for anything dystopian

10:54:39 justJanne: Ofc I did.

10:54:44 mircea_popescu: since in her world sartre never happened, as didn't voltaire.

10:54:48 mircea_popescu: justJanne so what do you make of it ?

10:55:00 justJanne: Meh.

10:55:07 mircea_popescu: care to be specific ?

10:55:10 justJanne: I don't like most of it.

10:55:33 mircea_popescu: you know, that's how rich men dump young girls ? "what did you think of the film" "meh" "specifically ?" "i just didn't like it"

10:55:39 justJanne: But it was 3 years ago, and in school, so I don't remember much more except for getting in an argument with my teacher.

10:55:43 mircea_popescu: the next thing coming is "you know, i don't think we should be seeing each other anymore"

10:58:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81697 @ 0.00027937 = 22.8237 BTC [-] {2}

10:58:18 mircea_popescu: williamdunne i was reduced to googling for your coupla phrases. reddit comes up.

10:58:35 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: You mean the euphoria ones?

10:58:39 mircea_popescu: yes

10:58:51 williamdunne: Yeah it was some atheist euphoric kid

10:59:02 BingoBoingo: ;;lasers

10:59:03 williamdunne: What she said reminded me of it

10:59:03 gribble: ┌━ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ *pew!* *pew!* *pew!*

11:01:51 justJanne: Also, you often don't need laws or regulations, as they are often ignored, if you use society or physics, it works better. Example: the streets in my city. If you have no parking lots anywhere in the city, people will have to use public transport. And private investors are happy too, because they can build parking lots and charge moon prices. 8$/h

11:03:03 mircea_popescu: and if you have no toilet paper or jeans, eager kiel sluts will suck capitalist cock for a song

11:03:06 mircea_popescu: i approve of this plan, yes.

11:03:13 mircea_popescu: worked fine in the 80s, will work fine again.

11:03:31 justJanne: The market will correct itself, if there is a market.

11:03:33 mircea_popescu: who knew that the reunification of germany was going to go the other way.

11:03:38 justJanne: As seen with the parking lots.

11:03:42 justJanne: Nah, it didn't.

11:04:04 justJanne: The current nordic model was already discussed and partially implemented in the 1800s

11:04:32 mircea_popescu: lol. what is with socialism and its desperate need to a) pretend it has a different name now and b) pretend it has historical roots ?

11:04:35 justJanne: The Nordic model is what Marx meant, but Lenin and Stalin went totally retarded.

11:04:40 mircea_popescu: riiight.

11:04:49 justJanne: Yes. Read Marx.

11:05:10 mircea_popescu: i'd have to borrow your glasses

11:05:14 mircea_popescu: an' i dun think they fit my head.

11:05:42 justJanne: He really only complains about cartels, monopolies, unfair wages, and in general no public services.

11:06:10 justJanne: Tbh, even the US nowadays is quite close to what Marx described.

11:07:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45397 @ 0.00027814 = 12.6267 BTC [-]

11:07:16 justJanne: Socialism, originally, was intended to do exactly this: give everyone equal chances, but then let them do their own thing. Of course you can start a company and become rich, this is no issue, as long as no one starves to death.

11:08:18 mircea_popescu: "you can start a company as long as it doesn't matter or do anything important"

11:08:23 mircea_popescu: yes yes. except, men are not babies.

11:08:52 justJanne: No.

11:09:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32450 @ 0.00026973 = 8.7527 BTC [-] {2}

11:09:20 justJanne: You can start a company, and become a huge multinational even, as long as everyone has enough to fulfill their basic needs.

11:09:40 mircea_popescu: how about, i have the money, i make the rules ?

11:09:45 justJanne: And there are many successful Nordic startups and companies.

11:09:58 justJanne: Money is a thing invented by people.

11:10:04 mircea_popescu: so are rules.

11:10:09 williamdunne: What do you mean "Invented"

11:10:12 justJanne: Yes.

11:10:20 williamdunne: Its sort of not invented but pretty much inherent to humans

11:10:37 mircea_popescu: gravity is also a thing invented by people.

11:10:38 williamdunne: Hence why the Indians die and Europeans rule the world

11:10:45 justJanne: No.

11:10:47 mircea_popescu: doesn't mean rocks didn't fall before, but it does mean it wasn't called gravity.

11:11:03 williamdunne: doesn't mean rocks didn't fall before, but it does mean it wasn't called gravity. << this is exactly what I mean

11:11:08 mircea_popescu: right.

11:11:42 mircea_popescu: so, yes, the idiocy of socialism, no matter how named, and the superiority of la serenissima, etc, are rules of the world, and drive it whether named or unnamed.

11:11:52 justJanne: No.

11:11:56 justJanne: Money is invented just like laws, or countriez

11:12:07 mircea_popescu: but other than that, money was invented and reinvented by people, most recently being called bitcoin.

11:12:35 williamdunne: Money has existed since before government was a concept that meant anything other than some tribe leader with a bone through his nose

11:12:51 mircea_popescu: justJanne was the number 7 invented by people, iyo ?

11:13:13 williamdunne: And it has been "invented" god knows how many times independently

11:13:27 williamdunne: It stems from the idea of ownership and necessity of a common unit

11:13:31 williamdunne: Thats literally all it is

11:15:30 williamdunne: Anyone who didn't invent it was crushed

11:17:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15747 @ 0.00027036 = 4.2574 BTC [+]

11:32:58 williamdunne: You know those dead bikers? Turns out they didn't actually kill anyone

11:33:04 williamdunne: It was the police that killed them

11:33:08 williamdunne: Not them killing each other

11:33:09 williamdunne: http://www.agingrebel.com/12873

11:34:09 mircea_popescu: ahahaha

11:34:14 mircea_popescu: the texas shootout thing ?

11:34:52 williamdunne: Yep, thats the one

11:35:07 williamdunne: It was a knife fight, and as soon as one biker pulled a gun the swat opened automatic fire

11:35:11 mircea_popescu: in other news, https://8ch.net/player.php?v=https://media.8ch.net/wx/src/1431138912693.webm&t=1430767959843schoolgirl-on-dildo.webm&loop=1

11:36:11 justJanne: More kills in one day than the police here in 70 years -.-

11:36:11 williamdunne: justJanne: When it comes to it, the German soldiers will either massacre civilians or execute gov officials

11:36:11 williamdunne: But considering who pays their salaries..

11:38:34 mircea_popescu: Sergeant Patrick Swanton, a spokesman for the Waco Police Department, called the attendees. ?A bunch of criminal element biker members that came to Waco and tried to instill violence into our community and unfortunately did just that?. This is not a bunch of doctors and dentists and lawyers riding Harleys. These are criminals on Harley-Davidsons.?

11:38:45 mircea_popescu: no further professions allowed in the ussa.

11:38:55 mircea_popescu: be a doctor, lawyer or a dentist. or fuck you.

11:39:13 mircea_popescu: sucks that most of the kids are online geeks / webexperts i guess.

11:39:27 williamdunne: Thats pretty meta - isn't it. Sergeant is on the list of criminals

11:39:39 mircea_popescu: Sergeant Swanton said, ?What occurred here today is the worst-case scenario when a business owner puts profit over human lives. It?s sad. This could have all been avoided.?

11:39:49 mircea_popescu: ahahaha "Waco police claim the violence could have prevented if Jay Patel, the operating partner at the independently owned Waco franchise, had simply banned the Confederation of Clubs from meeting there"

11:39:56 mircea_popescu: dude that country's so fucked...

11:40:34 williamdunne: Its not even that country, I'm pretty sure the same would be said elsewhere in fairness

11:41:40 williamdunne: But yeah thats pretty fucked

11:41:42 mircea_popescu: eslewhere where, in the "democratic" republic of germany ? (following kruschev's revelation on stalin!)

11:42:01 mircea_popescu: Since the massacre, police have announced that there is ?credible information about threats toward law enforcement.? Waco police issued a bulletin at 10:13 Sunday night that announced: ?Our agency has recieved (sic) information that the Cosaks (sic) and Banditos (sic) have issued an order to kill anyone in uniform.?

11:42:01 davout: deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/0H2AZ99.txt

11:43:01 deedbot-: accepted: 1

11:43:01 mircea_popescu: hey, i can see it.

11:43:01 mircea_popescu: kill everyone in uniform.

11:43:19 mircea_popescu: getting back to the softer side, https://media.8ch.net/wx/src/1431565456206-1.jpg

11:45:23 williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Oh noes, the lawyers and doctors too!

11:47:01 davout: deedbot-: add feed http://fr.anco.is/feed/

11:48:01 mircea_popescu: kinda funny how the "we totally fucked up. it was our job to keep things smooth and well... we blew it" thing never comes out of us police.

11:48:01 davout: trinque: did it werked? ^

11:48:56 davout: http://fr.anco.is/2015/x-eur-may-19th-statement/

11:49:57 chetty: <mircea_popescu> ahahaha "Waco police claim the violence could have prevented if Jay Patel, the operating partner at the independently owned Waco franchise, had simply banned the Confederation of Clubs from meeting there"//of course that would work, would have happened at the place down the street instead.

11:49:57 mircea_popescu: chetty ikr ? nuts, these people.

11:49:59 mircea_popescu: "it's julia's fault! do it to julia! not me!"

11:50:10 mircea_popescu: wtf, buncha felons.

11:50:47 mircea_popescu: "we didn't just butcher a bunch of marginal retards in a parking lot. it was because of the moon. the guy that made the roof 15 years ago is to blame. it';s because texas has straight borders"

11:51:18 mircea_popescu: how about you know, you just suck about as bad as the car mechanic that sets customers' cars on fire.

11:58:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89471 @ 0.00029065 = 26.0047 BTC [+] {2}

12:26:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50503 @ 0.00028874 = 14.5822 BTC [-]

12:35:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49001 @ 0.00026862 = 13.1626 BTC [-] {2}

12:46:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50600 @ 0.00028291 = 14.3152 BTC [+] {3}

13:00:25 funkenstein_: ooh look non-sychophant in channel, nice logs :)

13:20:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63950 @ 0.00026798 = 17.1373 BTC [-]

13:27:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://technologycloud.org/?p=1144 << there! finally it's all been shanonized properly.

13:28:31 mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ omfg what are you like the socialist party in hiding, waiting for reinforcements ?

13:30:57 punkman: mircea_popescu, that's a peculiar text, I wonder how it was made

13:31:19 mircea_popescu: sentence level mixing i'd guess

13:33:17 funkenstein_: perhaps for some value of "socialist party" :)

13:37:33 *: mircea_popescu calls for purge of trotskyst elements &c

13:37:33 scoopbot_revived: Testing Scoop http://thethug.life/testing-scoop/

13:37:52 funkenstein_: what is a "confidence researcher"?

13:38:13 mircea_popescu: like a con man, but with science.

13:40:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wtf, chinese to english or what

13:40:15 mircea_popescu: no idea.

13:41:52 williamdunne: Okay, Scoop should be 24/7 now, and even if he crashes the things he has posted should be persistent nao

13:41:59 williamdunne: Just gonna test his persistence

13:42:05 mircea_popescu: le cool.

13:42:12 jurov: !kill scoobot

13:42:19 mircea_popescu: you gonna add the bitbet posting functionality ? a lot more sensible i nscoop than i ndeedbot

13:42:37 jurov: williamdunne: wd!

13:42:47 williamdunne: I can, I hadn't seen the request but I'm happy to add it

13:43:05 mircea_popescu: splendeed.

13:43:41 williamdunne: Can't see an API or anything tho

13:44:00 mircea_popescu: jsons

13:44:23 *: asciilifeform caught up with log, many lulz

13:44:23 jurov: https://bitbet.us/rss/new/

13:45:23 williamdunne: Ah perfcet

13:45:23 williamdunne: *perfect

13:45:23 jurov: !mpif

13:45:24 assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021368 B (Total: 467.27 B). Delta: 0.09 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000207 BTC [+]

13:45:24 williamdunne: What features are wanted in said bot?

13:45:24 mircea_popescu: announce new propositions and bets > 1 btc in value

13:45:24 jurov: and accurate predictions!

13:46:08 jurov: !t m f.mpif

13:46:08 assbot: [MPEX:F.MPIF] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 0.000207 / 0.000207 / 0.000207 (20000 shares, 4.14 BTC), 30D: 0.000206 / 0.00020659 / 0.000207 (74560 shares, 15.40 BTC)

13:47:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you have a bet ?

13:47:34 mircea_popescu: check it out, they gave out the internet rations in twodogs today

13:47:45 nubbins`: a wild key collision appears

13:47:57 nubbins`: what's this about a banner then

13:47:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: waiwut, bet ?

13:48:03 jurov: welcome nubbins`

13:48:06 nubbins`: hi

13:48:06 mircea_popescu: listen nubsy, make a banner for your dubious publisher of offensive posters

13:48:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how manyl lines she takes.

13:48:37 asciilifeform: l0l

13:48:40 nubbins`: mircea_popescu like any ol' banner, or something more specific?

13:49:07 mircea_popescu: 728x90

13:49:12 nubbins`: inches?

13:49:16 nubbins`: pixels?

13:49:25 mircea_popescu: lol. https://8ch.net/btc/res/156.html << see that banner there at the top ?

13:50:25 nubbins`: o you mean a web banner or smth don't you.

13:50:25 *: nubbins` puts away the rolls of paper

13:50:25 mircea_popescu: lol

13:50:38 jurov: well, you can make paper one and scan it it

13:50:38 mircea_popescu: or papier mache

13:50:38 jurov: for the derps to "tell by the pixels not professionally done"

13:50:38 nubbins`: heh

13:50:55 nubbins`: how many times so far this year have derps sent me files at terrible resolution for screenprinting

13:51:00 nubbins`: "but it looks ok on my screen"

13:51:03 mircea_popescu: 726

13:51:07 nubbins`: kill yourself; get out

13:51:23 mircea_popescu: nubbins` you DID SAY it was SCREEN printing

13:51:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100149 @ 0.00026827 = 26.867 BTC [+] {2}

13:51:27 mircea_popescu: god damned scammers ruining everything.

13:51:44 nubbins`: hey now, you computer folk misappropriated the word.

13:51:51 mircea_popescu: this we did.

13:51:52 nubbins`: that box of lights is no more a screen than my left shoe!!

13:52:40 nubbins`: anyway, summertime rush is picking up

13:54:16 nubbins`: and i've somehow decided to publish a fully-silkscreened book that'll cost $100 per issue

13:54:16 nubbins`: o.O

13:55:15 jurov: what? stan's book is finished?

13:55:16 nubbins`: no, jesus

13:55:16 jurov: :D

13:55:16 nubbins`: i'd be surprised if that thing gets printed before 2020

13:55:16 nubbins`: and this book is like 20 pages

13:55:16 nubbins`: so.

13:55:16 mircea_popescu: well by 2020, stan's book is also gonna be 20 pages

13:55:16 mircea_popescu: ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((do)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

13:55:16 mod6: :]

13:55:16 nubbins`: aha!

13:55:16 nubbins`: "what's 'do' do?" "the thing"

13:55:16 mircea_popescu: fu, it looks ok on my left shoe!

13:56:26 nubbins`: did i mention that i was detained in a security room at cleveland hopkins airport for 13 hours because of this place?

13:57:41 mircea_popescu: no wai ?!

13:58:58 mircea_popescu: and you didn't even come to conference ?

13:58:58 jurov: and so it begins

13:58:59 jurov: do tell

13:58:59 nubbins`: heh. naw, just kidding

13:59:00 nubbins`: they did make me hold my arms out like an airplane while they touched my dick tho

13:59:00 jurov: did they found the rsa keys?

13:59:02 williamdunne: Yeah, they factored them

13:59:02 *: williamdunne wonders if persistence thingy will work this time

14:05:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18500 @ 0.00026858 = 4.9687 BTC [+]

14:09:45 williamdunne: Well, Scoop is now working, although Assbot won't listen to commands so he can't up himself

14:09:46 williamdunne: yay

14:09:58 *: williamdunne wonders why people are worried about an AI takeover

14:10:23 nubbins`: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKkAL1AEam8

14:11:23 nubbins`: lel @ yellow shirt man @ 1:00

14:11:23 nubbins`: for those of you who are not canadian, yellow shirt man got fired from his $100k/yr job as an engineer at a public utility the day after this video came out

14:11:23 nubbins`: mis lados etc

14:17:39 mircea_popescu: lol buncha derps.

14:17:39 mircea_popescu: "we just work here. not you... it's like...."

14:19:40 mircea_popescu: if you are gonna do it, then what happened to "yeah bitch, exactly."

14:19:40 mircea_popescu: fucking do it.

14:24:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55550 @ 0.00026858 = 14.9196 BTC [+]

14:30:22 williamdunne: !h

14:30:22 assbot: http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/assbot

14:30:29 williamdunne: w00t

14:30:30 davout: !rated jurov

14:30:30 assbot: You rated user jurov on 22-Apr-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: this nick maps to a real person i have met IRL, also CoinBR.

14:30:41 davout: seems to werk fine

14:35:25 davout: deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/3JTY0T7.txt

14:36:25 deedbot-: accepted: 1

14:36:25 scoopbot_revived: Scoop Test http://thethug.life/scoop-test/

14:36:25 williamdunne: Scoop werks

14:41:49 mod6: Ok, the v0_5_3_1-RELEASE performance test is complete. Charts are posted here if you'd like to view: http://thebitcoin.foundation/v0_5_3_1-RELEASE-Charts/

14:42:49 mod6: You'll notice that there are two times that during the full blockchain sync, bitcoind got oomkill'd.

14:42:57 mod6: Again, this is just the bitcoin-v0_5_3_1-RELEASE -- no patches added.

14:43:04 davout: http://ir.theice.com/press-and-publications/press-releases/all-categories/2015/05-19-2015-133635560.aspx

14:44:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24527 @ 0.00027005 = 6.6235 BTC [+] {3}

14:44:05 davout: "As a global index leader and administrator of ICE LIBOR, ICE Futures U.S. Dollar Index and many other notable benchmarks, we are pleased to bring transparency to this market."

14:44:05 mod6: And for reference, here's where you can view the performance test charts that were with the OrphanageThermonuke patched in: http://thebitcoin.foundation/OrphanageThermonukeCharts/

14:45:05 davout: "We are now going to use our name, reputation and global index provider stature to provide bitcoin values that the rest of the market can look to," says Tom Farley, who serves as president of NYSE, the venerable financial institution that has come to symbolize Wall Street and capitalism more broadly.

14:45:05 davout: right.

14:45:05 williamdunne: "Sorry we're late to the party, hey girlz, wanna see my handstand?"

14:45:47 davout: it's not that they're late, it's just... wtf

14:46:46 davout: "NYXBT utilizes a unique methodology that relies on rules-based logic to analyze a dataset of matched transactions and verify the integrity of the data to ultimately produce an objective and fair daily value for one bitcoin in U.S. Dollars as of 16:00 London time."

14:48:18 funkenstein_: bringing transparency to US markets, at 16:00 London Time

15:02:55 mod6: Process_Switches hits >4000 on v0_5_3_1-RELEASE-Charts when it oomkill'd

15:03:08 mod6: then straight down to 0.

15:04:47 punkman: "The NYSE Bitcoin Index will initially feature data from transactions from Coinbase Exchange, the leading U.S.-based bitcoin exchange. In 2015, NYSE made a minority investment in Coinbase"

15:07:53 punkman: well that's gonna be fun to watch

15:16:36 justJanne: Anyway, I'm sorry, but I don't have much time arguing with people like you stupidly about fictional politics.

15:18:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28400 @ 0.00026788 = 7.6078 BTC [-] {2}

15:24:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42026 @ 0.00026419 = 11.1028 BTC [-] {2}

15:26:17 williamdunne: What on earth.

15:37:02 danielpbarron: !up tcrypt

15:37:06 ben_vulpes: this thread's still going, eh?

15:37:28 davout: doesn't look like it

15:37:42 davout: she did broke the 1000 lines count while at it though

15:37:47 davout: notbad.jpg

15:39:40 ben_vulpes: > arguing stupidly << accidentally totally spot on

15:43:22 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1137072 << they're /both/ problems.

15:43:22 assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 23:03:57; justJanne: mod6: power is not the issue.

15:45:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00027836 = 9.7426 BTC [+]

15:45:12 mircea_popescu: davout vague stuff is vague, but anyway

15:45:45 mircea_popescu: how is coinbase leading anything anyway ?

15:46:13 mircea_popescu: !up tcrypt

15:46:24 mircea_popescu: williamdunne What on earth. << late onset butthurt.

15:48:45 mircea_popescu: one wonders what'd be the bar for non-fictional politics.

15:48:51 mircea_popescu: moses' tablets, perhaps.

15:50:31 mircea_popescu: justJanne 846 << what 1k ? scam.

15:55:03 jurov: well, i saw nobody explain to her how does the nordic model actually does not exist

15:55:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28684 @ 0.00027836 = 7.9845 BTC [+]

15:55:54 jurov: there were mostly fictional counterexamples

15:56:21 jurov: and mircea's "i do what i want"

15:56:50 mircea_popescu: yeah i did, she just ignored it.

15:57:28 mircea_popescu: the age old problem with being clueless - it impairs metacognition too.

16:01:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25766 @ 0.00028789 = 7.4178 BTC [+]

16:01:56 mod6: 10 moduli broken

16:02:18 mircea_popescu: aha.

16:03:46 mircea_popescu: http://pastebin.com/p5dVp1e5 >> this is like the most retarded thing i've seen today.

16:04:46 mircea_popescu: look at the cute idiots, they're going to call no philosophies. because that's how it works, for keepsies! they called it!

16:05:32 mod6: "lists are for nerds."

16:06:39 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: what's with the ~ in b,tmsro~ ?

16:06:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42185 @ 0.00027136 = 11.4473 BTC [-]

16:07:28 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes old library convention, so the list doesn't consist of half the items filed under TH

16:07:38 mircea_popescu: America, The History Of ~

16:07:43 ben_vulpes: aha

16:08:10 *: ben_vulpes searches memory for previous occurrences of the ~

16:08:26 ben_vulpes: dude you know i think this is another thing americans simply shrugged and decided to not bother with

16:08:27 mircea_popescu: mod6 as an item in a list.

16:08:44 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes they might have decided not to teach kids anymore, but it was in use back in the day

16:09:16 ben_vulpes: not even not taught, but not even used

16:09:24 *: ben_vulpes spent rather a lot of time in libraries as a wee one

16:09:35 mircea_popescu: but after computers neh ?

16:09:59 mircea_popescu: computers made all other things stupider.

16:10:39 mircea_popescu: anyway, this particular usage is the reason tilde even exists on computer keyboards.

16:11:34 ben_vulpes: i'm deeming the justJanne word salad as skippable

16:11:59 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1138620 << too many

16:11:59 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 09:27:49; mircea_popescu: clever chick with a head fulla stupid meets #b-a. anyone care to bet on the linecount total ?

16:12:13 mircea_popescu: you nearly ended up hosting her.

16:12:29 ben_vulpes: lolwut

16:12:40 mircea_popescu: talk to trinque, he signed you up.

16:12:48 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 as an item in a list. << hehe

16:12:57 ben_vulpes: waaaat

16:13:49 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1138736 << ahaha

16:13:49 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 09:49:00; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes trinque hey lot, if i buy her plane tickets do you show her portland ? a week or so ?

16:13:51 ben_vulpes: sure.

16:13:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58550 @ 0.00026142 = 15.3061 BTC [-] {2}

16:15:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21306 @ 0.00025917 = 5.5219 BTC [-]

16:17:48 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1138929 << i contest this point: http://www.xvideos.com/video4179860/champagne_bottle_in_the_ass_2

16:17:48 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 10:24:05; mircea_popescu: doesn't mean you can run around sticking bottles up your ass.

16:21:06 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1139174 << sounds familiar

16:21:06 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 11:08:18; mircea_popescu: "you can start a company as long as it doesn't matter or do anything important"

16:22:46 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1139334 << /me imagines nubsy making airplane noises whilst being groped

16:22:46 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 13:59:00; nubbins`: they did make me hold my arms out like an airplane while they touched my dick tho

16:22:52 mircea_popescu: laters!

16:23:17 *: ben_vulpes off to not matter and do things of nil importance

16:33:30 danielpbarron: !up t-

16:34:17 danielpbarron: !up aabtc

16:39:53 ben_vulpes: http://shift2bikes.org/cal/viewpp2015.php << attn danielpbarron pete_dushenski and bikers of all stripes

16:45:31 danielpbarron: sounds too much like pedopalooza; even has the bear

16:48:19 ben_vulpes: it is pedalpalooza

16:48:28 ben_vulpes: why u no pedalpalooza?

16:49:01 danielpbarron: it overlaps with porcfest, among other reasons

16:49:12 ben_vulpes: plus lib'ruhls, no doubt

16:49:54 danielpbarron: other side of country, is in portland, is a month long!?

16:50:02 ben_vulpes: what, you have a job or something?

17:02:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82193 @ 0.00025908 = 21.2946 BTC [-] {2}

17:09:17 Apocalyptic: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136454 // for the record I misstated the length of the bugger, 311 is the length above which msieve presently refuses to crunch the number, the remaining factor is 1223 digit long

17:09:17 assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 18:56:11; Apocalyptic: on a 311 decimal base number I have my doubts, even msieve refuses to crunch it

17:17:41 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

17:17:54 ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://dpaste.com/2BFGXXW.txt

17:18:54 gribble: The operation succeeded.

17:25:50 ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu *exactly like the one i showed you earlier. virtually same type of modifications.*

17:25:51 gribble: The operation succeeded.

17:26:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40099 @ 0.00025515 = 10.2313 BTC [-] {2}

17:31:13 funkenstein_: "You are encouraged to associate your ORCID with your arXiv account." <-- Orcs, get your IDs ready <-- http://orcid.org/about/team

17:32:13 ben_vulpes: truly orcish tekmology

17:34:51 ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu aaand you've got mail

17:34:51 gribble: The operation succeeded.

17:41:46 funkenstein_: I saw my first advert-in-captcha this week. Nasty.

17:47:01 mats: https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/448.pdf 'FLUSH+RELOAD: a High Resolution, Low Noise,L3 Cache Side-Channel Attack'

17:48:01 mats: www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2015/papers/6949a591.pdf 'S$A: A Shared Cache Attack that Works Across Cores and Defies VMSandboxing—and its Application to AES'

17:52:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66706 @ 0.00025329 = 16.896 BTC [-] {2}

17:53:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57694 @ 0.00025169 = 14.521 BTC [-] {2}

17:54:54 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

17:54:59 ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu very relevant >> http://cacr.uwaterloo.ca/techreports/2004/cacr2004-01.pdf

17:55:59 gribble: The operation succeeded.

18:04:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117200 @ 0.00025037 = 29.3434 BTC [-] {2}

18:06:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57950 @ 0.00025892 = 15.0044 BTC [+]

18:20:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9087 @ 0.00025892 = 2.3528 BTC [+]

18:23:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51465 @ 0.00026105 = 13.4349 BTC [+]

18:24:31 deedbot-: [Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Ex Machina - http://www.contravex.com/2015/05/19/ex-machina/

18:25:31 trinque: scoopy still not working?

18:25:31 scoopbot_revived: Ex Machina http://www.contravex.com/2015/05/19/ex-machina/

18:25:31 trinque: ah there it goes, good deal.

18:25:34 *: trinque turns off deedbot-'s rss-er

18:26:42 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

18:26:53 ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1139424 << just picture her as an indoor cat explaining to alley cats the advantages of being pet... and you can like her again!

18:26:53 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 16:11:34; ben_vulpes: i'm deeming the justJanne word salad as skippable

18:27:53 mod6: +1

18:28:24 ascii_field: ben_vulpes: t0p p3t

18:28:53 trinque: just a kid yelling about how they want to be the change they want to see...

18:29:06 trinque: I think at 19 I considered myself an "anarchocapitalist"

18:41:37 jurov: i consider everyone here (maybe except mircea) a proud wannabe alley cats,still hooked to petting and milk

18:42:29 jurov: both sides of that discussion made me cringe

18:42:35 *: ascii_field laboratory cat, gets milk, not so much petting, and occasional medical experiments

18:42:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26000 @ 0.00026713 = 6.9454 BTC [+]

18:50:36 ascii_field: http://www.zdnet.com/article/the-dhs-brings-its-infantile-cyber-fantasy-world-to-rsa-2015 << l0ltr0n1c

18:54:44 mats: jesus

18:56:04 trinque: "potential terrorist activity" << nice orwellian term there

18:57:30 trinque: Congressman Mike Rogers told the RSA audience more than once that metadata in bulk surveillance collection "is just the 'To: From:' like the front of an envelope."

19:01:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11035 @ 0.00026713 = 2.9478 BTC [+]

19:03:45 decimation: ascii_field, mod6, ben_vulpes > have you seen this tool for managing patches? > http://julipedia.meroh.net/2013/11/patch-management-with-quilt.html

19:04:45 decimation: you can push & pop patches to a source tree easily

19:04:45 decimation: available here https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/quilt/

19:05:45 trinque: that's pretty cool

19:05:45 decimation: apparently used in the kernel world to manage massive patchsets

19:09:45 jurov: well, our problem is not patch management, but *reading* them

19:09:47 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=19-05-2015#1138061 < anarchy is retarded

19:09:47 assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 08:03:40; justJanne: I don't know. I have no issues with you guys building a state of anarchy,

19:11:28 jurov: !s "is retarded"

19:11:29 assbot: 87 results for '"is retarded"' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=%22is+retarded%22

19:12:54 trinque: stand back guys; I'm going to build an anarchy

19:13:16 jurov: ANARCHY MUST BE ENFORCED AT ALL COSTS

19:14:40 decimation: if the magic to living the 'nordic freedom' dream is 50% tax plus redistribution, why doesn't that seem to work in somalia? are they too stupid to understand the concept?

19:15:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95550 @ 0.00027405 = 26.1855 BTC [+]

19:16:37 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

19:16:52 *: ascii_field gets 50% taxed without (seeing any of the) redistribution

19:17:27 ascii_field: can't help but imagine this being the reason why so many folks who aren't obviously retarded, are in favour of the handouts

19:17:36 ascii_field: scarcely anyone imagines that the theft might stop,

19:17:55 ascii_field: but it is a slightly less outlandish fantasy to picture getting some of it back as bread&circuses or whichever.

19:19:28 jurov: fantasies don't count

19:19:56 ascii_field: jurov: they 'count' in the psychiatric sense of explaining where the voices the patient listened to when he swung the axe appeared to come from.

19:21:04 decimation: mircea seems to credit the german geography for why 'nordic freedom' 'seems to work'. but I suggest it is the people themselves - having been beaten by the romans for centuries, and then forced by the church to mate outside their immediate family, they developed a concept of 'kinship' beyond L2 cousins

19:23:31 decimation: anyway, back to the mines for me

19:25:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31684 @ 0.00027711 = 8.78 BTC [+] {2}

19:38:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59050 @ 0.00027595 = 16.2948 BTC [-] {2}

19:57:59 jurov: hooray for citizen psychiatry!

19:59:40 jurov: !up schmidty

19:59:47 jurov: !up NewLiberty

20:03:32 jurov: !up joshbuddy

20:12:37 mats: Ex Machina was a huge disappointment

20:13:28 mats: camera at the door takes his pic, prints access card with his face on it, but for whatever reason a super-secure AI dev facility doesn't so much as use the pic for user verification

20:21:45 punkman: ^ agreed, it was pretty stupid

20:32:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82600 @ 0.00028318 = 23.3907 BTC [+] {3}

20:39:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16743 @ 0.00028455 = 4.7642 BTC [+]

20:45:51 decimation: ascii_field: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151097 < fanless 400 watt ATX supply

20:46:51 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

20:46:51 decimation: http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=200 < teardown

20:47:51 ascii_field: decimation: from my experience, these 'fanless' things invariably rely on -some- case fan being present

20:47:51 decimation: yeah, it would be interesting to try it out

20:48:48 ascii_field: a gadget which has no 'hedgehog' open to room air is a nonstarter for true fanlessness

20:48:54 ascii_field: just from examination by naked eye.

20:50:10 decimation: maybe. http://seasonicusa.com/NEW_X-series_Fanless.htm < it appears to come with a 5 year warranty, so you can exchange it if it burns out

20:51:10 ascii_field: can i also exchange the downstream devices it will nuke when it does? l0l

20:51:10 decimation: heh

20:51:24 decimation: usually power supplies don't nuke the downstream stuff, but it can happen

20:51:29 decimation: especially if it undervolts

20:53:54 ascii_field: decimation: some years ago, i purchased a 'fanless' ps and discovered, to my grief, that a number of misc. components on the (cpu water-cooled) mb relied on having -some- airflow

20:54:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124550 @ 0.00028482 = 35.4743 BTC [+]

20:54:23 decimation: yeah, they don't put that in the spec, but who knows. if the supply is really efficient, it ought not generate much heat

20:54:57 ascii_field: voltage regulators, fets, various logic

20:55:02 ascii_field: on mb proper

20:55:23 kakobrekla: i dun have a fanless seasonic but it has its fan off most of the time

20:55:37 kakobrekla: even when it goes on, dun hear it really

20:55:38 ascii_field: kakobrekla: how often is 'most' ?

20:55:55 kakobrekla: unless i start gayming

20:56:46 ascii_field: i've seen systems like this, but, sadly, nothing with amd (nor do i expect to. they're 'frying pans.')

20:57:39 kakobrekla: 'Seasonic P-760'

20:57:58 ascii_field: kakobrekla: aha but what is it plugged into

20:58:23 kakobrekla: 230v mains

20:58:29 ascii_field: -other- end

20:59:37 kakobrekla: 4770K, 32gig, amd r9 280x, a few ssds

21:00:26 ascii_field: aha so intel box.

21:00:33 kakobrekla: yes

21:08:15 ben_vulpes: <jurov> i consider everyone here (maybe except mircea) a proud wannabe alley cats,still hooked to petting and milk << and i the mangiest

21:09:41 jurov: lol.. your know how to hide your patchy fur in photos then

21:10:04 ben_vulpes: my patchy beauty is on THE INSIDE, jurov!

21:11:51 *: jurov pets ben_vulpes

21:13:22 ben_vulpes: halp

21:13:27 ben_vulpes: this is supposed to be a safe space

21:13:31 ben_vulpes: jurov is molestering me

21:14:08 ben_vulpes: http://southpark.cc.com/clips/152475/molesteration

21:15:45 ben_vulpes: it's like sequestration, but...

21:15:52 mats: halp halp im being oppressed

21:16:05 ben_vulpes: i'm just being pressed

21:16:14 mats: bloody peasant

21:19:09 jurov: !up ascii_field

21:21:23 ascii_field: wat even

21:22:06 jurov: we're having a contest who's mangiest inside

21:22:23 ascii_field: '2015-05-19 20:12:17 One or More Panels Have Begun Manual SMT Placement'

21:22:35 *: ascii_field pictures slaves sweating

21:22:55 jurov: for rng or cardano?

21:23:16 ascii_field: rng

21:23:21 ascii_field: batch of 32

21:23:55 ascii_field: in other news, 10 moduli as of a few hrs ago

21:31:20 mod6: i noticed. cool!

21:32:50 trinque: *applause*

21:33:16 ascii_field: some very... interesting output, also.

21:34:49 Apocalyptic: figures

21:35:30 Apocalyptic: ascii_field likes to tease

21:39:21 ben_vulpes: interesting how?!

21:39:42 ascii_field: all in good time, l0l

22:21:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 110800 @ 0.00027802 = 30.8046 BTC [-]

22:29:23 williamdunne: Has scoop been behaving

22:31:45 jurov: ;;seen scoopbot_revived

22:31:46 gribble: scoopbot_revived was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 4 hours, 6 minutes, and 26 seconds ago: <scoopbot_revived> Ex Machina http://www.contravex.com/2015/05/19/ex-machina/

22:33:50 jurov: !t m s.qntr

22:33:50 assbot: [MPEX:S.QNTR] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 0.00032592 / 0.00034038 / 0.00035271 (3400 shares, 1.16 BTC), 30D: 0.00025534 / 0.00031692 / 0.00035271 (13584 shares, 4.31 BTC)

22:34:51 trinque: williamdunne: turned the deedbot- rss'er off

22:35:00 williamdunne: Perfect

22:35:12 williamdunne: Should be 24/7, on an actual server and is cloaked

22:35:25 trinque: nice.

22:35:39 williamdunne: Is 4.31 the market cap of Qntra?

22:36:17 jurov: lol

22:36:28 jurov: no it's 30D volume

22:37:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60250 @ 0.00028141 = 16.955 BTC [+] {2}

22:37:36 williamdunne: I was going to say

22:37:45 williamdunne: Was considering buying out Qntra for a sec

22:38:24 williamdunne: Anyone seen this? From a glance looks like a good scalability solution.

22:38:24 williamdunne: https://bitpay.com/chaindb.pdf

22:40:02 jurov: !s sidechains

22:40:03 assbot: 36 results for 'sidechains' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=sidechains

22:41:34 jurov: or if it's meant for misc data, then it's done by deedbot already

22:42:37 jurov: smells like something a patent troll could put together

22:43:26 williamdunne: Its like sidechains but doesn't require a fork

22:43:36 williamdunne: Stores hashes of the blocks in the bitcoin blockchain

22:43:40 williamdunne: So kinda like deedbot in a way

22:44:53 jurov: oh i wanted to ask, did you think about prevention of resubmitting same clearsigned text many times?

22:45:15 trinque: who me?

22:45:16 jurov: trinque ^

22:45:37 trinque: I'll negrate people who abuse it

22:45:48 trinque: aside that nah, if it's signed by L1 or L2 it goes out

22:46:23 jurov: um. with email submission, i don't even know

22:47:09 jurov: it already does SHA sum of whole clearsigned text, but comment can be changed so this is useless

22:47:16 trinque: hm?

22:47:41 jurov: you know clearsigned text has modifiable comment line?

22:47:57 trinque: yeah so?

22:48:17 trinque: either somebody produces the original text of the thing or deedbot has nothing to say about it

22:50:05 jurov: if someone uses temporary voice to resubmit existing deed 1000 times, deedbot has nothing to say about it?

22:51:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93900 @ 0.00028296 = 26.5699 BTC [+] {2}

22:52:07 jurov: since you're paranoid enough to have a whitelist of sources, i thought you thought about that

23:01:18 trinque: jurov: couldn't remember so I went and looked

23:01:56 ben_vulpes: > blue text in email

23:02:02 ben_vulpes: > sender confirmed for msexchange user

23:02:05 trinque: it will do a crappy check against the json api to see if the nick plonking in a deed is trusted, however, I don't know of an api that gives whether the nick on IRC is authenticated

23:02:16 trinque: so it could be improved

23:03:19 trinque: if there's a URL for that it'd be trivial to add

23:03:39 jurov: i decided to make sha1sums of decrypted text (and in future check them for duplicity)

23:04:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.00028528 = 11.6394 BTC [+] {2}

23:05:08 jurov: pity that gpg offers no facilities to distinguish signatures except for date

23:05:40 trinque: afaik using a deedbot against the blockchain is the only actually verifiable way of timestamping data that exists

23:06:50 jurov: yes but i'm not about timestamping. i'm about checking if two clearsigned files are identical

23:07:06 jurov: !up nubbins`

23:07:06 trinque: ah got ya

23:07:13 jurov: !up asciilifeform

23:07:58 mod6: ok, so v0.5.3 is compiled and running -- im doing a nmon perf collection on that as well. then we'll have all three to compare.

23:10:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31950 @ 0.00028717 = 9.1751 BTC [+] {2}

23:19:38 asciilifeform: mod6: 3 ?

23:26:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 114000 @ 0.00027757 = 31.643 BTC [-] {2}

23:27:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78876 @ 0.00027686 = 21.8376 BTC [-] {2}

23:27:59 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 0.5.3 (virginal, aside from db lock patch), 0.5.3.1-RELEASE and 0.5.3.1-RELEASE + orphanage thermonuke

23:28:33 asciilifeform: aha

23:28:55 asciilifeform: why would we expect a meaningful difference in performance between 1 and 2 ?

23:31:15 jurov: it's the nubbins` tax patch

23:31:21 asciilifeform: l0l

23:32:31 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: one good test is to hard-config all 3 to connect exclusively to same (fully-synced) node

23:32:37 asciilifeform: simultaneously, from 0

23:33:00 asciilifeform: (this could underplay the effect of 'bastards' however)

23:34:16 BingoBoingo: !up schmidty

23:42:39 mod6: <+asciilifeform> why would we expect a meaningful difference in performance between 1 and 2 ? << i don't, but we need a benchmark anyway so we can make some assertions

23:43:03 asciilifeform: ah

23:43:46 mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: 3 ? <+mod6> Ok, the v0_5_3_1-RELEASE performance test is complete. Charts are posted here if you'd like to view: http://thebitcoin.foundation/v0_5_3_1-RELEASE-Charts/ <+mod6> You'll notice that there are two times that during the full blockchain sync, bitcoind got oomkill'd. <+mod6> Again, this is just the bitcoin-v0_5_3_1-RELEASE -- no patches added. <+mod6> And for reference, here's where you can view the performance tes

23:44:46 mod6: :]

23:44:46 asciilifeform: neato

23:46:07 mod6: we'll be correlating all the data and putting together a bit of a press-release and notes along with it as soon as the v0.5.3 perf test is complete