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Transcript for 19-12-2015, 1102 lines:

00:05:08 mircea_popescu: nice asciilifeform

00:05:20 BingoBoingo: Triggered https://i.sli.mg/yAQ9s3.jpg

00:05:21 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1OBtOsP )

00:14:31 punkman: https://www.deepdotweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Non-animated1_aNu_22-July-15__300x250_01-orange.jpg

00:14:32 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1PeIenC )

00:16:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68340 @ 0.00049389 = 33.7524 BTC [-] {3}

00:20:03 BingoBoingo: http://www.lawguru.com/legal-questions/illinois-criminal-law/son-walking-street-kick-container-616521661/

00:20:04 assbot: My son was walking down the street and | Legal Advice ... ( http://bit.ly/1OBuY7J )

00:22:59 mod6: <+ascii_field> https://bitnodes.21.co/nodes/?q=/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99 << experimental programmable-versionstring patch is in test, and seen even here << cool!

00:23:00 assbot: Network Snapshot - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/1PeJp6j )

00:29:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16494 @ 0.00049211 = 8.1169 BTC [-] {3}

00:51:16 BingoBoingo: http://www.bnd.com/news/local/article50335635.html#wgt=trending

00:51:17 assbot: Retired East St. Louis police captain killed after gun accidentally discharges | Belleville News-Democrat ... ( http://bit.ly/1PeMLpY )

00:59:14 BingoBoingo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CWi19BRWcAU-6Hm.jpg

00:59:15 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1mduYUz )

01:02:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25467 @ 0.0004912 = 12.5094 BTC [-] {2}

01:02:30 asciilifeform: achtung, panzers!

01:02:37 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al:

01:02:38 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-December/000185.html

01:02:38 assbot: [BTC-dev] Programmable Version Strings. ... ( http://bit.ly/1mdvdyY )

01:03:18 asciilifeform: ;;jurov can we PLEASE have an end to filename munging?!! IT BREAKS V

01:03:18 gribble: Error: "jurov" is not a valid command.

01:03:22 asciilifeform: ;;later tell jurov can we PLEASE have an end to filename munging?!! IT BREAKS V

01:03:22 gribble: The operation succeeded.

01:16:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27250 @ 0.00048627 = 13.2509 BTC [-] {2}

01:17:04 asciilifeform: also interesting q: do all of these strings passed as returns ever get deallocated ?

01:17:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21250 @ 0.00049028 = 10.4185 BTC [+]

01:17:41 asciilifeform: because unless std::string does something clever with refcounts, as far as i can see: they do not.

01:25:13 asciilifeform: ;;isup qntra.net

01:25:18 gribble: qntra.net is up

01:25:21 asciilifeform: hm

01:25:26 asciilifeform: entirely dead here.

01:25:26 kakobrekla: its not

01:25:44 kakobrekla: i think ;;8ball might be more accurate than ;;isup

01:25:50 asciilifeform: aha.

01:40:45 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> because unless std::string does something clever with refcounts, as far as i can see: they do not. << they do not.

01:40:58 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> entirely dead here. << didn't we already discuss this ?

01:41:16 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was fraudsters. qntra was alive until a few hrs ago

01:44:01 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-12-2015#1346941

01:44:01 assbot: Logged on 18-12-2015 23:23:48; mircea_popescu: adlai BingoBoingo seems the very angry people managed to take the whole server down meanwhile.

01:44:05 mircea_popescu: you gotta read teh log

01:44:12 asciilifeform: ah apparently

01:44:18 *: asciilifeform reads

01:44:33 mircea_popescu: anyway. apparently there's a limit on the count of simultaneously up services. whatevs.

01:48:00 asciilifeform: incidentally, anybody ever succeed in getting a ~heap dump~ of a running trb ?

01:50:37 asciilifeform: http://core-analyzer.sourceforge.net << possibly of interest

01:50:38 assbot: Core Analyzer Home ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pc48Wx )

01:51:36 asciilifeform: 'By searching the process?s address space for all references directly or indirectly to a suspicious object, the tool helps to unveil the object?s type and usage in a thorough and systematic way.'

01:51:57 *: asciilifeform has not tried yet

01:52:41 asciilifeform: https://fedorahosted.org/gdb-heap << similar

01:52:43 assbot: gdb-heap ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pc4kVT )

01:52:48 asciilifeform: also have not tried.

01:52:56 asciilifeform: was gonna write own this, and found these

01:53:43 asciilifeform: nm gdb-heap is worthless

01:53:47 asciilifeform: does not support cpp yet...

01:54:12 asciilifeform: https://google-perftools.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/doc/heapprofile.html << even they have one

01:54:13 assbot: Google Heap Profiler ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pc4pJ8 )

02:05:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11100 @ 0.00049027 = 5.442 BTC [-] {2}

02:13:41 mod6: <+asciilifeform> incidentally, anybody ever succeed in getting a ~heap dump~ of a running trb ? << thanks.

02:14:16 mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://core-analyzer.sourceforge.net << possibly of interest << for this

02:14:17 assbot: Core Analyzer Home ... ( http://bit.ly/1Pc48Wx )

02:58:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 177067 @ 0.00049733 = 88.0607 BTC [+] {6}

03:11:57 mod6: ;;bc,stats

03:12:00 gribble: Current Blocks: 389126 | Current Difficulty: 9.34486707963238E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 391103 | Next Difficulty In: 1977 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 15 hours, 6 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

03:24:20 *: trinque looks forward to the day he can fiddle around with the concept of hypertext on a gossipd

03:25:03 trinque: fuck this "oh the server is down" therefore I cannot access this information that was previously published by someone in my WoT

03:59:29 mircea_popescu: enjoy the web. designed by idiots.

04:16:04 BingoBoingo: What asciilifeform apparently misses in his corner of Murica https://i.sli.mg/gUPtot.jpg

04:16:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1NCEsjd )

04:16:25 BingoBoingo: scooty puff in the wild

04:32:25 mircea_popescu: so i ended up the happy owner of the best ice tray i have ever seen in my life. it's exceptionally well made plastic. for one thing, it's properly flexible. for the other, it's actually hygroscopic. for yet another, the separators are actually TALL enough you get proper cubes made. it is a wonder of perfection which literally fills my life with joy.

04:32:38 *: mircea_popescu can't remember the last time he has encountered a perfect product, but it wasn't this decade.

04:32:49 mircea_popescu: but the true wtf of it all ? it's chinese.

04:32:59 mircea_popescu: this is what "made in the usa" used to mean, 50 years ago.

04:33:01 mircea_popescu: no longer.

04:42:42 BingoBoingo: More keep popping up https://bitnodes.21.co/nodes/?q=/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99

04:42:43 assbot: Network Snapshot - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/1PeJp6j )

04:59:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38745 @ 0.00049816 = 19.3012 BTC [+] {2}

05:23:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43200 @ 0.00049817 = 21.5209 BTC [+]

06:25:16 liquidassets: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-12-2015#1346625what is a bezzle bag?

06:25:16 assbot: Logged on 18-12-2015 16:53:58; Birdman: These are interesting times to be alive, that is for sure. And i have a bezzle bag so if i do somehow keep my imediate freedoms through the crash of fiat and rise of sound money my mouth will be fed.

06:27:37 liquidassets: nvm let's think it through

06:29:02 liquidassets: I'm calling smart money has a significant % in cash

06:29:25 punkman: it's a Eulora item

06:29:51 liquidassets: I want to play..

06:30:20 BingoBoingo: http://it.slashdot.org/story/15/12/19/0048223/phantom-squad-hacking-group-claims-credit-for-three-hour-xbox-live-outage

06:30:22 assbot: Phantom Squad Hacking Group Claims Credit For Three-Hour Xbox Live Outage - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/1NuD5Fo )

06:30:47 punkman: "AND WE SHALL BE REMEMBERED BY OUR 3 HOUR DDOS"

06:30:48 liquidassets: 20-30% maybe on $1million in assets

06:31:48 liquidassets: 50% real estate, 20-30% bezzle

06:32:28 punkman: best to skip the real estate if you onlyt have a million

06:32:31 liquidassets: "crash of fiat" means what?

06:32:52 liquidassets: 1million equity punkman

06:33:57 liquidassets: Crash of fiat, if you have an undergraduate in economics circa 2009, means hyperinflation

06:34:01 punkman: crawsh of fiat means zimbabwe

06:34:23 liquidassets: This is what they teach

06:34:47 liquidassets: however, we are not in the weimar republic <<(not checking spelling or source)

06:35:38 liquidassets: digital money, debt, and the war on cash aka 'the grunch of giants' has changed the game

06:36:09 liquidassets: The rules of money 'change' every 40-50 years

06:36:39 liquidassets: For about the last 20, the more debt you have, the better you're doing

06:36:54 liquidassets: rich people use debt to acquire assets

06:37:32 punkman: I quite like not being in debt

06:37:36 liquidassets: assets are defined strictly as something that puts money in your pocket every month

06:37:59 liquidassets: most people don't like debt punkman

06:38:15 liquidassets: but the rules of money are such that you will be forced out of position....until bitcoin

06:39:24 liquidassets: most people, and mexicans I work with, will buy a house with the little money they have, stack 9-12 members of extended families, and work their asses off to pay off a 30 year mortgage in less than 5

06:39:49 liquidassets: most people just want to be comfortable and not have to worry so much

06:42:28 liquidassets: My problem with the story of contemporary hyperinflation has always been my inability to find the mechanism

06:43:14 liquidassets: I mean, it would seem that 'they' got really really good and keeping inflation down, or hiding it in other ways

06:43:58 liquidassets: It's like 20s 20s 20s 20s everywhere a 20. Ok Maybe a 50....Oh well hold on, I can't really break 100

06:44:32 punkman: well yes, as long as the megatons money you print doesn't really circulate

06:45:07 liquidassets: right, as long as it's 'sanitized' to pull from MP

06:46:13 liquidassets: I'm not sure I made a point out of all of this

06:47:13 liquidassets: and its probably been said before, there's no real insight to it, but it's been swiming in my noodle for quite some time

06:47:52 punkman: your name is liquid assets and you want 50% in real estate?

06:48:09 liquidassets: I'm in real estate, so it's a little more liquid for me ;)

06:50:05 liquidassets: And anyway, it could be for other people. Give me a few million to work with and I'm going to put that shit to work

06:50:43 liquidassets: but seriously don't give me money, I"m not even close lawyer wise yet

06:50:55 liquidassets: not one decent lawyer I can rightfully put in my wot

06:55:10 liquidassets: In other news,, I haven't jerked off for 3 days, MP you got anything for me?

07:55:02 BingoBoingo: liquidassets: https://i.imgur.com/av37kTT.jpg

07:55:03 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MmOnYd )

07:56:02 liquidassets: God what the hell is she?

07:56:44 punkman: is that a good wrist wrap?

07:57:41 liquidassets: all taped and talcked up

07:59:45 liquidassets: kung foo grip

08:00:28 BingoBoingo: Can't rape her if she won't let you

08:01:47 liquidassets: I'd much rather her rape me

08:02:40 liquidassets: How tall you think she is? 5'10"?

08:03:05 BingoBoingo: No idea, watch she ends up being 4'9"

08:03:40 liquidassets: Her arms tho

08:05:42 BingoBoingo: Oh, she's 5'2" https://archive.is/WZNVW

08:05:44 assbot: Aly Raisman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1MmP8k0 )

08:06:19 liquidassets: really? wow very nice

08:08:51 liquidassets: I was hoping for more rape potential

08:18:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28250 @ 0.0004977 = 14.06 BTC [-] {2}

08:54:38 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

08:54:44 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 463.69, vol: 8384.11943000 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 457.927, vol: 6082.05011 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 463.67, vol: 15744.1351917 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 450.0, vol: 11.44615614 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 474.636852, vol: 79431.05470000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 458.98001, vol: 90.79318023 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 458.5874, vol: 111.22856735 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

08:55:42 BingoBoingo: ;;more

08:55:42 gribble: 471.272756216

09:01:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54050 @ 0.00049833 = 26.9347 BTC [+] {3}

09:06:46 BingoBoingo: http://wspa.com/2015/07/29/mom-arrested-after-child-unresponsive-in-feces-covered-home/

09:06:48 assbot: Child Found Unresponsive in Feces Covered Home in Gray Court ... ( http://bit.ly/1MmTyHV )

09:10:45 BingoBoingo: Correction, no country for old men after all: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-man-who-shot-teen-charged-with-gun-crime/article_b9f3c5d9-75a7-54f5-ae96-5350d4acc58c.html

09:10:46 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1QzFbro )

09:18:53 punkman: http://static.squarespace.com/static/50231c92c4aa4cf8be9c49ee/t/50617509e4b0095aa0d4fcfc/1348564240025/4-1.jpg

09:18:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MmUprV )

09:20:43 punkman: "Roberta Mancino is an Italian skydiver, BASE jumper, wingsuit flyer and international model. She has participated in more than 7,000 skydives and won several awards and world records. She has gone on four skydives while completely naked, and on five occasions her parachute did not open in mid-jump."

09:40:01 BingoBoingo: Most upvoted thing I have seen on Reddit evar https://archive.is/d9m2n

09:40:04 assbot: [Theory] Jar Jar Binks was a trained Force user, knowing Sith collaborator, and will play a central role in The Force Awakens : reddit.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1QzHXgi )

09:44:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32555 @ 0.00048966 = 15.9409 BTC [-] {2}

10:09:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64800 @ 0.00049842 = 32.2976 BTC [+]

10:18:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64150 @ 0.00048935 = 31.3918 BTC [-] {2}

10:23:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24051 @ 0.00048817 = 11.741 BTC [-] {2}

10:35:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21500 @ 0.00048817 = 10.4957 BTC [-]

11:16:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15293 @ 0.00049846 = 7.6229 BTC [+] {2}

11:28:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16700 @ 0.00049851 = 8.3251 BTC [+] {2}

11:37:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62050 @ 0.00049901 = 30.9636 BTC [+] {2}

11:43:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 152861 @ 0.00049956 = 76.3632 BTC [+] {4}

11:48:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43300 @ 0.00049975 = 21.6392 BTC [+] {2}

12:18:53 wywialm: hi, do you know anything about cjdns https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/blob/master/doc/Whitepaper.md

12:18:54 assbot: cjdns/Whitepaper.md at master · cjdelisle/cjdns · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1PcH1v3 )

12:30:38 mircea_popescu: liquidassets> I want to play.. << so wgat;s keepin you ?

12:32:08 punkman: wywialm: I looked at it recently, the code is not horrible, but I've yet to fully grasp the overall design of the thing

12:32:22 mircea_popescu: punkman> I quite like not being in debt << as usual, retail is for suckers. consumer debt's just about the dumbest proposition i ever heard. nevertheless, nrl isn't that bad.

12:32:43 punkman: nrl?

12:32:55 mircea_popescu: (this isn't, as the retail bankers got the retail suckers to think, a case of "you can't takle anything other than my house".

12:33:05 mircea_popescu: more practically, most business ventures are financed by a convertible note.

12:33:36 mircea_popescu: this is the quintessential non recourse debt : x (company) owes to y, and all y can do if it's not happy with the repayment schedule is take some equity stake in x.

12:35:38 wywialm: punkman, if you find out more, please let me know

12:36:17 PeterL: "30. A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you’ll go."

12:36:18 mircea_popescu: lol wikipedia "Thus, non-recourse debt is typically limited to 50% or 60% loan-to-value ratios,"

12:36:39 mircea_popescu: "we're a large collection of people who understand nothing of anything and here's what we think the world is". such an unique value proposition.

12:36:55 mircea_popescu: !s cjdns

12:36:56 assbot: 17 results for 'cjdns' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cjdns

12:36:59 mircea_popescu: wywialm ^

12:37:16 wywialm: ah, yes, thanks

12:38:08 PeterL: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=16-12-2015#1345012 << I had those in one of my appartments in Lansing, they are nice because efficient and quiet, but not compatible with central air so the newer places don't have them

12:38:08 assbot: Logged on 16-12-2015 22:49:14; pete_dushenski: ascii_field: http://p-fst1.pixstatic.com/506a33a6d9127e30fc001273._w.540_s.fit_.jpg << what i had in mind as 'covered' radiator

12:40:34 PeterL: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347041 << what do you mean it is hygroscopic?

12:40:34 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 04:32:25; mircea_popescu: so i ended up the happy owner of the best ice tray i have ever seen in my life. it's exceptionally well made plastic. for one thing, it's properly flexible. for the other, it's actually hygroscopic. for yet another, the separators are actually TALL enough you get proper cubes made. it is a wonder of perfection which literally fills my life with joy.

12:40:47 mircea_popescu: fun fact : if your debtor disposes of a retail (ie, faux) non-recourse loan and you live in the us/other such shitholes, the government WILL WANT TO TAX the ammount lost. because you made a theoretical gain.

12:41:33 mircea_popescu: suppose you buy a house, take a 100k loan from the bank on the understanding that if you don't pay they can have the house and that's it. suppose the market goes to shit, and you walk. suppose the bank takes your house and sells it for 60k.

12:41:39 mircea_popescu: irs is gonna claim you "realised 40k income"

12:42:36 PeterL: ^ I short-sold a house a few years ago, was lucky enough to fall in the time frame USgov was doing a special "excluding mortgage losses from taxes" stint

12:42:57 PeterL: otherwise would have owed taxes on 50k "income"

12:43:06 punkman: lol

12:43:08 mircea_popescu: aha

12:44:25 PeterL: stupid real estate market crash mutter mutter bleh

12:45:35 mircea_popescu: mno. stupid government.

12:45:59 PeterL: well, yeah, stupid real estate bubble caused by stupid government

12:46:06 mircea_popescu: that's the problem with that shit, it's so fucking sticky. or if you prefer less scatological terms, so well managed. it's an outrage, they know it's an outrage, but they also know people are lazy and how do you protect your outrage ?

12:46:18 mircea_popescu: you "suspend" it, arbitrarily, whenever it looks like it's enough to cause a riot, maybe.

12:46:25 mircea_popescu: that way, you can have it at all other times.

12:46:43 mircea_popescu: because hey, people are basically water - as long as you put the work in to make dykes while it rains, you can have an artificial lake np.

12:47:40 PeterL: i'm confused by your analogy, how does watery people relate to the current topic?

12:48:21 mircea_popescu: water is dumb. it has a very simple action cycle : does movement result in lower center of gravity ? if yes go if not stay.

12:48:39 mircea_popescu: same shit with ustard : does burning down the govt result in immediate payoff ? no ? well... what's on tv ?

12:49:16 mircea_popescu: all you gotta to is arbitrarily (which, in the theoretical paradigm you claim to operate under would be - illegally!) suspend whatever laws whenever things get to a boiling point

12:49:44 PeterL: most just go straight to the tv, "I'll think about burning stuff after I watch my shows and surf facebook for a while"

12:50:03 mircea_popescu: well so that's the analogy. from a management pov all you care about is the water level.

13:11:28 PeterL: http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2015/12/glycerol-free-strategy-sweetens-biodiesel-synthesis << interesting development

13:11:28 assbot: Glycerol-free strategy sweetens biodiesel synthesis | Chemistry World ... ( http://bit.ly/1NuZrXl )

13:23:06 PeterL: good morning pete

13:24:04 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347041 << we must have the same ice cube tray because i go ga-ga for its elegant design every time i use it. been meaning to do a blog post on it aamof

13:24:04 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 04:32:25; mircea_popescu: so i ended up the happy owner of the best ice tray i have ever seen in my life. it's exceptionally well made plastic. for one thing, it's properly flexible. for the other, it's actually hygroscopic. for yet another, the separators are actually TALL enough you get proper cubes made. it is a wonder of perfection which literally fills my life with joy.

13:24:13 pete_dushenski: mornin PeterL

13:24:50 PeterL: I don't understand how the plastic is hygroscopic?

13:25:26 PeterL: mircea_popescu: did you mean hydrophobic?

13:42:01 pete_dushenski: "The government in the Netherlands has clarified that it is legal for driving instructors to offer lessons in return for sex, as long as the students are over the age of 18. However, it is illegal to offer sex in return for lessons." << hahaha so man may proposition fillie but not vice versa eh. man i like those dutch.

13:43:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72900 @ 0.00050001 = 36.4507 BTC [+] {4}

13:44:14 pete_dushenski: 50 !

13:48:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 158417 @ 0.00050024 = 79.2465 BTC [+] {2}

13:54:09 PeterL: he can buy, but she can't sell? wtf how does that work?

13:56:44 pete_dushenski: works like the rest of the soi-dissant fiat legal system : in la-la-land

13:57:38 PeterL: does technical analysis work on S.MPOE? BUY BUY BUY!!!

13:58:39 deedbot-: [Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Pictographic ambiguity. - http://www.contravex.com/2015/12/19/pictographic-ambiguity/

13:58:50 pete_dushenski: ta works on everything, even toast.

13:59:19 pete_dushenski: goddamdoubletitlebullshit

13:59:29 pete_dushenski: i thought i fixt you !

14:00:11 PeterL: I think the second should be the title of the post?

14:01:05 punkman: pete_dushenski: just gotta edit the rss template

14:01:19 shinohai: "P.S. Who knew you didn’t need Facebook or Myspace or whatever to make a post like this ?" <<< heh

14:01:36 pete_dushenski: ;)

14:01:49 pete_dushenski: punkman: hm ok

14:01:55 PeterL: but if you posted it on facebook, then only your "friends" would be able to see it

14:02:27 punkman: probably feed.php or something

14:03:48 punkman: http://cdn.instructables.com/F9U/P3M7/GXDWYHSQ/F9UP3M7GXDWYHSQ.MEDIUM.jpg << best kind of ice cube is sphere

14:03:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Jj9bA7 )

14:05:52 pete_dushenski: i've had the icespheres in old fashioneds at local restaurants. tis a classy touch

14:19:08 liquidassets: Peak Chill https://medium.com/matter/against-chill-930dfb60a577#.g86fzojxj

14:19:09 assbot: Against Chill — Matter — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/1JjaSxf )

14:19:21 liquidassets: Fiesty blogger I think we should bring her here

14:19:32 liquidassets: MORNING ASSETS!

14:19:46 pete_dushenski: go for it, bring fillie here.

14:19:51 pete_dushenski: and g'mornin'

14:22:02 liquidassets: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347119 35000 Pointz! LOL

14:22:02 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 09:40:01; BingoBoingo: Most upvoted thing I have seen on Reddit evar https://archive.is/d9m2n

14:23:47 pete_dushenski: https://archive.is/VdFt3 << or the impotence of the economist's paywall.

14:23:48 assbot: In the Balkans, NATO has outmuscled Russia | The Economist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Jjbnre )

14:24:19 liquidassets: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347131 This is like what you guys talk about 95% of the time right

14:24:19 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 12:18:53; wywialm: hi, do you know anything about cjdns https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/blob/master/doc/Whitepaper.md

14:25:20 liquidassets: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347133 Send me an invite right? it's all good on a mac? for some reason I don't think it's as easy as that, need more softwarez?

14:25:20 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 12:30:38; mircea_popescu: liquidassets> I want to play.. << so wgat;s keepin you ?

14:26:09 pete_dushenski: http://www.eulorum.org/OS_X

14:26:12 assbot: OS X - Eulorum ... ( http://bit.ly/1KTmdbo )

14:29:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18207 @ 0.00050069 = 9.1161 BTC [+] {2}

14:31:13 liquidassets: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347152 well YOU DID didn't you? LOL what about inter family "loans" that don't carry interest? Nope can't do that, you 'should' be charging interest, and we're going to tax you on that interest you 'should' have been collecting

14:31:13 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 12:40:47; mircea_popescu: fun fact : if your debtor disposes of a retail (ie, faux) non-recourse loan and you live in the us/other such shitholes, the government WILL WANT TO TAX the ammount lost. because you made a theoretical gain.

14:36:00 liquidassets: And don't think the bank is going to actually realize that 40,000 paper loss. Most of that loss was subsidized further by YOUR tax dollars

14:41:09 liquidassets: PeterL how long was the short sale? I got in when short sales were the thing to be in, thankfully only ever was involved with one.

14:43:14 pete_dushenski: ;;seen phf

14:43:14 gribble: phf was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 week, 4 days, 22 hours, 11 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <phf> or maybe it's picking up your gcc since you have it installed. homebrew compiler selection algo is all kinds of creative

14:51:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61250 @ 0.00050101 = 30.6869 BTC [+] {2}

14:52:01 liquidassets: ;;ticker --market all

14:52:07 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 463.01, vol: 7289.81157412 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 456.306, vol: 5543.1255 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 464.05, vol: 15173.52756155 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 450.0, vol: 11.44615614 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 474.7818, vol: 75406.48210000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 464.0, vol: 94.38193821 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 461.8485867, vol: 92.3935814 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

15:16:11 liquidassets: http://lostcoastoutpost.com/2015/dec/18/us-congress-approves-truce-war-medical-marijuana/

15:16:13 assbot: Feds Approve Truce in War on Medical Marijuana | Lost Coast Outpost | Humboldt County ... ( http://bit.ly/1QRCAYj )

15:19:27 liquidassets: "So, to continue the Drug War analogy, the generals may keep declaring truces, but the soldiers still want to fight."

15:19:49 liquidassets: specially when their budgets depend on it

15:28:03 liquidassets: How accurate is that ;;ticker anyway? Anybody interface with any of those markets?

16:02:21 PeterL: liquidassets: I owed about 110k on the mortgage, house sold for about 35k. So I guess it was more like 75k "income" that was "forgiven" by USG for taxes.

16:03:41 PeterL: The bank didn't lose any of that 75k, they had insurance (which was tacked onto my bill every month) to cover such a loss. Insurance didn't help me any, even though I was the one paying for it.

16:06:05 liquidassets: PeterL sorry for your luck, it's supposed to be much better 'for your credit' than going through a foreclosure. What are your thoughts on buying going forward?

16:07:31 PeterL: I dunno, I think I might buy. But I will approach it a bit different now, I will be more selective and aggressive instead of just taking the first offer the real estate agent suggests.

16:09:46 PeterL: There are advantages to renting, like moving is alot easier.

16:10:22 PeterL: It is hard to predict the future, having a 30 year mortgage locking you down in one spot is not what I want to do again

16:16:22 liquidassets: PeterL What were/are your main reasons for wanting to buy?

16:17:15 PeterL: Now I would want to get a house with a large down-payment, pay it off quickly, then not have to worry about a monthly rent payment

16:18:59 PeterL: When I bought the house I thought it was a financially good thing to do (I was in college at the time): buy house, pay mortgage for ~5-8 years, sell and have a nice down payment for the next house wherever my after college job ended up

16:19:23 PeterL: would have worked if housing prices hadn't dropped 75% where I lived

16:19:30 liquidassets: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347076 <<see here. you don't want to be like most people, if you want to be a like a mexican you ought to be a mexican

16:19:30 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 06:39:24; liquidassets: most people, and mexicans I work with, will buy a house with the little money they have, stack 9-12 members of extended families, and work their asses off to pay off a 30 year mortgage in less than 5

16:20:09 liquidassets: most people just want to be comfortable and not have to worry so much...most people isn't the group you want to be in

16:20:10 PeterL: why not have a (relatively) payment free place to live?

16:20:40 liquidassets: well...that would be a great thing. How would you best go about it?

16:21:53 PeterL: still have to pay taxes, but that is alot less than rent

16:22:19 liquidassets: sure, about 1.1% of assessed value where I live

16:24:09 liquidassets: 1.1%/yr. Rents are like .7% per month

16:25:33 liquidassets: Look, with interest rates on 30 year mort as low as they have been, why aren't you leveraging?

16:26:06 PeterL: I was unemployed part of this year. I am working on building a savings to use as a down payment

16:26:28 PeterL: I just hope I can get things together before interest rates go up too much.

16:27:50 liquidassets: If your 'goal' is to be comfortable with no debt, I commend you..for the no debt part...kind of. But the money rules are made to take the most advantage of those that make comfortability their goal

16:28:18 liquidassets: Interest rates go up, house prices go down

16:28:25 PeterL: I don't think it will take a long time, I currently live rent free. Before you ask why not just stay, it is a bit small for my family

16:29:52 liquidassets: so instead of only buying what you think you can afford. I always try to buy properties with income producing potential. Might be tough with family though..

16:30:11 PeterL: my 'goal' is not just to be debt free, but to have my money working harder than me

16:30:38 liquidassets: afaik in US properties with 1-4 units qualify for all the same types of loans

16:31:29 liquidassets: once you go above 4 you're in commercial category, need like 20% down at least, harder to qualify

16:32:51 PeterL: I think getting a dwelling and making real estate investments should be approached in different ways

16:32:57 liquidassets: so best thing to do is find a 4 unit you can tolerate living in with your tenants (if the loan you get requires you to owner occupy)

16:33:16 liquidassets: Should?

16:33:24 PeterL: everybody needs somewhere to live, but real estate investments should be compared against other possible means of investment

16:35:02 liquidassets: Not exactly there's some nuance to 'investment'

16:35:23 PeterL: for example, where I want to live (close to my place of employment, nice neighbors, etc) has different criteria than a place for investment (price/value, possible tennants, etc)

16:35:38 liquidassets: each class should be considered separately in how it relates to your over all picture

16:35:48 liquidassets: For sure PeterL

16:36:12 pete_dushenski: liquidassets: remind me again, what's your background regarding investing ?

16:36:27 liquidassets: I've just tried to blend the two as much as possible

16:36:56 PeterL: based on pete_dushenski's articles, I am not sure if I have a good personality for being a land-lord

16:38:48 liquidassets: pete_dushenski been a USmarket bezzle investor since 1999. Alliance Pharmaceutical was my first hot stock tip I bought into, put all my eggs in that basket. 1 of 2 investments I've lost all principal

16:39:36 PeterL: there is one question "does it make sense to rent or buy (or try squatting) based on my financial situation?" and a separate question of "I have x money to invest, should I put it in real estate or investment y or z?"

16:40:19 liquidassets: 2nd one was a $10,000 'private investment' in a mobile medical PET scanner that was such a total scam...RapidScam Imaging I think it was called lol

16:40:56 PeterL: any financial advice I give should be taken with a grain of salt, as exemplified by my horrible mortgage investment I don't have alot of good marks on my record

16:41:15 liquidassets: in spite of these two failures I manage a decent size portfolio now

16:41:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52050 @ 0.00049702 = 25.8699 BTC [-] {2}

16:41:44 pete_dushenski: liquidassets: wait, so you continue to go bust on whatever shiny thing catches your eye, but you've been doing it for 16 years, and now you somehow think you're qualified to opine on investing ? dude, how's that supposed to work ?

16:41:46 liquidassets: decent sized eg: under $500K

16:41:58 liquidassets: Dude I was 13 I think

16:41:59 pete_dushenski: and a 'decent sized portfolio' can be easily 100% savings

16:42:19 pete_dushenski: no roi

16:42:29 liquidassets: I do pretty good

16:42:36 liquidassets: I'm just telling you my loss stories

16:42:45 liquidassets: did you want me to try and 'win' your approval?

16:42:46 PeterL: but 100% savings would have no loi

16:42:55 PeterL: (loss on investment)

16:43:12 liquidassets: I"m Not giving investment advice TM

16:43:34 liquidassets: yes I am qualified to opine, quite qualified

16:44:00 pete_dushenski: caveat emptor

16:44:56 liquidassets: It's called discernment punk I"m not selling anything

16:45:13 pete_dushenski: but even if you have a $400k portfolio, it's unlikely you'd have saved that much working 'menial' jobs for 10 years

16:45:24 liquidassets: um yea

16:45:25 pete_dushenski: so i guess you're spinning something out of it

16:45:42 pete_dushenski: lol punk...

16:45:42 liquidassets: You're all sorts of filled with assumptions now aren't you?

16:45:56 pete_dushenski: myea

16:46:03 pete_dushenski: bbiab

17:00:57 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347046 << new one is yours ?

17:00:57 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 04:42:42; BingoBoingo: More keep popping up https://bitnodes.21.co/nodes/?q=/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99

17:08:22 mircea_popescu: peterl yeah i did.

17:10:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5380 @ 0.00049932 = 2.6863 BTC [+] {2}

17:11:24 liquidassets: Pete, you're like a hero to me, please don't make me call you a punk again.

17:11:48 asciilifeform: !s gettrust liquidassets

17:11:49 assbot: 7 results for 'gettrust liquidassets' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gettrust+liquidassets

17:11:54 asciilifeform: !gettrust liquidassets

17:11:55 assbot: Trust relationship from user asciilifeform to user liquidassets: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=asciilifeform&to=liquidassets | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/liquidassets/

17:12:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347131 << it's sorta like a mildly braindamaged gossipd

17:12:56 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 12:18:53; wywialm: hi, do you know anything about cjdns https://github.com/cjdelisle/cjdns/blob/master/doc/Whitepaper.md

17:13:10 asciilifeform: barfaliciously complicated protocol and uses ecc crypto

17:13:45 asciilifeform: i.e. quite like a gossipd designed at ft meade for chumpatronic purposes

17:16:04 asciilifeform: 'Cjdns addresses are the first 16 bytes (128 bits) of the double SHA-512 of the public key.'

17:18:16 asciilifeform: http://www.fc00.org << map of cjdns net. imho the fact that it is possible to draw this map is a serious flaw.

17:18:17 assbot: fc00::/8 – Mapping Hyperboria ... ( http://bit.ly/1OCF6gF )

17:19:18 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347154 << folks in usaschwitz have been driven into penury by... winning a car in a lotto. (taxable!!11)

17:19:18 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 12:41:39; mircea_popescu: irs is gonna claim you "realised 40k income"

17:21:33 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347163 << 'white' house-buyin' sort of folk don't riot. period.

17:21:33 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 12:46:18; mircea_popescu: you "suspend" it, arbitrarily, whenever it looks like it's enough to cause a riot, maybe.

17:21:44 asciilifeform: usg can do pretty much whatever it wants, to them.

17:21:59 asciilifeform: (and to everybody else, but to them, ~cheaply~)

17:22:17 mircea_popescu: everyone else my foot.

17:22:38 mircea_popescu: leaving aside the putins and chinese bureaucrats of this world... so far is having a lot of trouble doing anything worth the mention to a large mass of towelheads.

17:22:53 asciilifeform: the towelheads are usg contractors in good standing.

17:23:11 mircea_popescu: mno.

17:23:32 mircea_popescu: i dunno why you keep repeating this fantasy lol. not like it's going to get rejected 500 times and then accepted on the 501st pass ?

17:23:44 mircea_popescu: it IS getting tedious, but it isn't getting any closer to acceptance.

17:23:59 asciilifeform: because as far as i can see from my periscope, the towelheads are as necessary for usg as air ?

17:24:18 mircea_popescu: these two aren't even related, notwithstanding they're not in any sense true.

17:25:04 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 does yours (or anybody else's) 'v' verify the hashes ?

17:25:04 gribble: The operation succeeded.

17:26:04 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347180 << this is also how 'decriminalization' for dope works

17:26:04 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 13:42:01; pete_dushenski: "The government in the Netherlands has clarified that it is legal for driving instructors to offer lessons in return for sex, as long as the students are over the age of 18. However, it is illegal to offer sex in return for lessons." << hahaha so man may proposition fillie but not vice versa eh. man i like those dutch.

17:26:13 asciilifeform: buy? walk. sell? jail

17:26:16 ben_vulpes: !up renart

17:26:29 liquidassets: come up to the surface alf

17:27:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83750 @ 0.00049933 = 41.8189 BTC [+]

17:27:27 liquidassets: towlheads are a thing in and of itself

17:27:41 renart: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-12-2015#1346885 << despite how much you want cheap fuel for your bombast engine, this was never the case.

17:27:41 assbot: Logged on 18-12-2015 22:13:12; pete_dushenski: i thought ben_vulpes was all 'auto-auto-mobiles are the footoor because bayes'

17:28:24 liquidassets: provocation seems to be a going strategy abroad and homeland for awhile now

17:32:44 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347209 << 4th reich now owns moar europe than 3rd did

17:32:44 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 14:23:47; pete_dushenski: https://archive.is/VdFt3 << or the impotence of the economist's paywall.

17:32:44 renart: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347303 << some guy who showed up, got into some faux drama with some friend of dpb's, is now working furiously towards some end or other

17:32:44 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:11:48; asciilifeform: !s gettrust liquidassets

17:32:44 mircea_popescu: assbot ? tell me what these people are on about ?

17:32:44 mircea_popescu: i am lost without assbot!

17:32:44 renart: the maximum number of operational systems continues to decrease

17:32:44 asciilifeform: is renart ben_vulpes's 'ascii_field' or wat

17:32:44 mircea_popescu: so he sez.

17:32:44 liquidassets: renart fraudsters.com/causes-and-purposes

17:32:51 liquidassets: I think their 'friendship' is tenuous but whatevs

17:33:03 trinque: assbutt awakens!

17:33:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you seriously are quoting the fucking economist ?

17:33:23 asciilifeform: hey i only looked at the map

17:33:23 mircea_popescu: here's the headline from pravda : the us was buried in 1975.

17:33:25 mircea_popescu: hurr durr.

17:33:57 *: asciilifeform could not actually bring himself to read the thing, only saw 'map of nato'

17:34:24 renart: yes, liquidassets, that *is* the reference i'm making!

17:34:30 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: funnily, pravda was almost correct. dead around '75. but not buried...

17:34:31 renart: good job

17:34:37 liquidassets: to what end is your reference?

17:34:38 asciilifeform: zombie-rampages to this very day

17:34:40 *: mircea_popescu looking forward to the nato response ot the wave of 50mn turkish refugees once that thing blows up.

17:34:43 mircea_popescu: such great.

17:34:57 renart: "he's working towards a purpose, guys!"

17:35:01 renart: it's a joke, y'see.

17:35:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: will there be bashi-bazouks? beheading contests? headless footraces ?

17:35:04 renart: in the variety speak.

17:35:05 trinque: then he says "to what end"

17:35:08 *: trinque roars with laughter

17:35:29 mircea_popescu: renart trinque translate the joke to an old man ? i'm like... not following.

17:35:45 asciilifeform: and can anybody recall where i got the notion that ottomans had headless races? (two prisoners run past swordsmen, heads chopped, hot iron 'thumb tacks' inserted in stumps, bodies keep running)

17:36:14 liquidassets: it's a joke;; Chill https://medium.com/matter/against-chill-930dfb60a577#.ouuz03k73

17:36:15 assbot: Against Chill — Matter — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/1OCGxvi )

17:36:31 *: trinque chuckles at liquidassets linking causes-and-purposes and then saying "to what end"

17:36:49 renart: mircea_popescu: aw man then it won't be funny

17:36:52 mircea_popescu: ", I had no idea that I?d end the day going from casually dating six men to formally and intentionally dating zero."

17:36:58 mircea_popescu: uh... k. i have no idea.

17:37:07 liquidassets: To what end is HIS reference? no parse?

17:37:36 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347239 << as per the old jewish saying, 'much better to be rich and healthy than poor and infirm'

17:37:36 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 16:17:15; PeterL: Now I would want to get a house with a large down-payment, pay it off quickly, then not have to worry about a monthly rent payment

17:37:42 liquidassets: Couple punks in here

17:38:26 renart: so i say that he's working towards purposes and not from causes...

17:38:47 mircea_popescu: who ?

17:38:52 renart: liquidassets,

17:38:52 liquidassets: yea who?

17:38:58 liquidassets: um no

17:39:11 *: renart doesn't think the offhand comment bears such close scrutiny

17:39:13 mircea_popescu: i had no idea he was working. seemd just gabbing away to me.

17:39:23 liquidassets: Exactly we should all just Chill

17:39:24 renart: well there we differ in opinion

17:39:35 asciilifeform: !rate liquidassets -1 low snr

17:39:35 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/af2795bc98831c9c

17:39:35 mircea_popescu: you don't understand how the internet works foxperson. minutia is all it's got.

17:40:00 liquidassets: Is that some sort of censure?

17:40:10 mircea_popescu: liquidassets he has a point, incidentally. it's not a social club per se. it's a social club for powerful rich people that do things.

17:40:22 asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.liquidassets.-1:3f81c87907aee015472edeb796422e71b5edbcae1183b0f781dc346441fe0fe7

17:40:22 assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for liquidassets with note: low snr

17:40:25 liquidassets: so basically shut up?

17:40:38 mircea_popescu: unless you're doing something, yeah.

17:40:41 liquidassets: go back to lurk?

17:41:16 liquidassets: ;;search site:fraudsters.com #bitcoin-assets rules

17:41:16 renart: it's bitcoin-rpg, try it and see!

17:41:16 gribble: (search <word>) -- Searches for <word> in the current configuration variables.

17:41:43 liquidassets: Whatevrr Boss

17:44:19 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347232 <<< meanwhile derpass argentines live in a lala-land where "departamentos" ie, 500 sqft condos "are worth" 100k+. dollars, not pesos.

17:44:19 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 16:02:21; PeterL: liquidassets: I owed about 110k on the mortgage, house sold for about 35k. So I guess it was more like 75k "income" that was "forgiven" by USG for taxes.

17:44:23 adlai: liquidassets: good noise cancellation doesn't boost white noise once human speech cuts off

17:45:27 mircea_popescu: then i tell them about how if i wanted to buy real estate i'd buy a ranch in montana for the same money, they go all incredulous. because yeah they do nothing but watch us exports on the tube all day, but they don't have either the unlazy intensity to try and get complete data or the mental acuity to understand how that's done.

17:46:19 liquidassets: don't get it adlai sorry

17:46:50 *: renart chuckles

17:47:03 liquidassets: renarts a bitch

17:47:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347236 << the advantages of renting are mutually incompatible with the disadvantages of having kids. so...

17:47:27 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 16:09:46; PeterL: There are advantages to renting, like moving is alot easier.

17:49:00 mircea_popescu: if i was going to raise a litter i'd definitely buy. now it's true that if i did i'd buy in kandahar, and i would never even consider it with a single woman, but i guess these'd be details. fact remains if you're going to kids you're much better off with ownership.

17:49:18 renart: and why is that, mircea_popescu?

17:49:28 mircea_popescu: why is what.

17:49:59 renart: why is the fact that owning is so much better with kids?

17:50:25 mircea_popescu: not what was said. "the advantages of renting are mutually incompatible with the disadvantages of having kids."

17:50:39 renart: aha

17:50:42 *: renart coffee

17:50:49 mircea_popescu: kids are the exact bane of flexibility. this needs no discussion, does it ?

17:51:12 renart: none, no.

17:52:06 mircea_popescu: "i got this here aileron, just like the f1 ferrarris use. on my ford truck. because sometimes five ton ford trucks take off the road under their own speed."

18:01:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15100 @ 0.00049702 = 7.505 BTC [-]

18:02:43 mircea_popescu: !up JPT

18:09:43 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347414 << in kandahar the house is actually yours because your 'deed' consists of 14 sons each with kalash.

18:09:43 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:49:00; mircea_popescu: if i was going to raise a litter i'd definitely buy. now it's true that if i did i'd buy in kandahar, and i would never even consider it with a single woman, but i guess these'd be details. fact remains if you're going to kids you're much better off with ownership.

18:09:46 asciilifeform: in usa - not so much.

18:10:52 asciilifeform: (where a kid is just a 100-400k liability on your books, sorta like getting run over by a bus and not quite dying)

18:12:01 mircea_popescu: aha.

18:12:37 liquidassets: !rate asciilifeform 5 All signal needs amplitude

18:12:37 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/000c9bca048d0d2d

18:13:09 mircea_popescu: in fairness, if you're going to raise kids correctly in the states, the govt pays for most of it.

18:13:19 asciilifeform: gotta paint yerself black 1st

18:13:29 mircea_popescu: the results are about what you'd expect out of a process designed, managed and paid for by a government, but hey.

18:13:37 liquidassets: !V assbot:liquidassets.rate.asciilifeform.5:2e6daa9209bf2b8dbead2cb6060e2b4e476751c4c259e1bc93bb50f00356f90c

18:13:37 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 5 for asciilifeform with note: All signal needs amplitude

18:13:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform obviously you'd only consider black women for marriage. what can you do.

18:14:07 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: marriage?! if you marry'em they qualify for 0 dole

18:14:11 asciilifeform: this is basic.

18:14:38 asciilifeform: see also the brooklyn hassids who successfully adopted this racket

18:14:50 asciilifeform: (they don't register their marriages with usg, qualify as 'single mother' cases)

18:14:58 mircea_popescu: "marriage". it's a flexible institution. seems the correct implementation of ghetto-marriage (as opposed to the middle class white same sex marriage thing they do - yes it's always two women) is where you keep 2-5 bitchez and professionally are either a thief or a drug dealer.

18:15:05 asciilifeform: aha this

18:15:07 mircea_popescu: thief being the more skilled version.

18:15:08 asciilifeform: in that sense yes.

18:16:00 mircea_popescu: should get a coupla dozen urchins during a decade to pick from.

18:16:16 mircea_popescu: and if you can't pick a coupla decent ones from a coupla dozen, your women picking skills suck.

18:16:27 asciilifeform: pick from for what ?

18:16:35 mircea_popescu: same exact thing we're doing here.

18:16:42 mircea_popescu: to teach them how to steal and how to pick bitchez, i guess.

18:16:55 mircea_popescu: but really, to have a little ghetto-ba with.

18:17:09 asciilifeform: afaik these folks have very loose ties with their offspring

18:17:13 mircea_popescu: (the word in that v-speak is "keep it real")

18:17:38 mircea_popescu: not that clear-cut.

18:17:53 mircea_popescu: for one thing, men are supposed to have loose ties with their offspring in the first place.

18:20:05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347241 << the thing scammers never tell the scamee is that investing is a professional activity. no fucking exceptions.

18:20:05 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 16:19:23; PeterL: would have worked if housing prices hadn't dropped 75% where I lived

18:20:06 mircea_popescu: none.

18:21:19 asciilifeform: other thing re: 'buy vs rent' - i learned that u.s. folk typically 'buy' for two reasons - 1) massive tax subsidy for mortgageism; 2) - interestingly - the extreme scarcity of rental ~house~ as a thing

18:21:41 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347257 << why not having "your bitchez" working harder than you ? easier to get women to work for you than to get money to work for you.

18:21:41 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 16:30:11; PeterL: my 'goal' is not just to be debt free, but to have my money working harder than me

18:21:55 asciilifeform: (i suppose i oughta include a '3' - being cattle - but i was describing thinking people, which is who i associate with)

18:22:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the rental situation is pretty much idiotic anywhere outside europe.

18:22:23 mircea_popescu: which is weird, because the transportation situation idem

18:22:31 mircea_popescu: and the utilities situation, idem x2.

18:22:36 mircea_popescu: kinda weird how it works.

18:22:44 asciilifeform: density thing?

18:23:30 mircea_popescu: history, density, [up until recently] cultural variety, take your pick.

18:24:30 asciilifeform: the parts of usa habitable on, e.g., engineer's, wage, are rather low-density vs eu

18:24:44 mircea_popescu: but from experience, what passes for 'normal' furnishings (all new appliances, genuine leather upholstery, etc) in ro is "luxury" if even awailable in massachussetts.

18:25:23 asciilifeform: furniture-included is considered an oddity here

18:25:42 asciilifeform: and much more so for a free-standing house

18:25:47 mircea_popescu: the notion you'd rent bare walls is so bizarre. is this a 10 year leasing agreement or something ?

18:25:59 mircea_popescu: why am i taking possession of industrial machinery by the month.

18:26:02 asciilifeform: (it is not unheard-of in 'student' communal flats, those typically come with furniture, as a dorm room does)

18:27:11 ben_vulpes: victory of the rentiers.

18:27:12 asciilifeform: i can only speak for self, but i don't WANT to use some landlord's cheapo pressboard standard soviet furniture

18:27:14 asciilifeform: for anything

18:27:47 asciilifeform: if my pad had come with any, i'd have to find a place to safely stow it, or swallow the cost of dumping it

18:27:48 mircea_popescu: well, if you're poor why wouldn't you ?

18:27:54 mircea_popescu: and if you aren't poor why are you renting in the poor section ?

18:28:10 mircea_popescu: to be next to all the famished bitchez ? mkay, then you'll live with the ikeas.

18:28:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see naggum's 4-ring binders.

18:28:42 asciilifeform: folks buy/rent 'the army you have, not the army you wish you had'

18:29:11 *: mircea_popescu is a firm believer in "scream at the market until it alligns. and if it doesn't, burn it down."

18:29:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu doesn't even use markets, he has oil well in his living room

18:29:41 mircea_popescu: i suppose THAT is what the occasional derp means by sociopath.

18:29:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform baby oil ?

18:30:01 asciilifeform: how would i know, l0l

18:30:08 asciilifeform: perhaps extracted from baby

18:30:14 mircea_popescu: ahh my pun!

18:30:41 mircea_popescu: protip : baby oil is what makes the bitches slick.

18:33:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29100 @ 0.00049933 = 14.5305 BTC [+]

18:43:33 asciilifeform: kakobrekla et al: bucephalus is down and will be until i can get to the cabinet and see wtf

18:44:10 mircea_popescu: loller.

18:44:59 asciilifeform: it went silent after a scheduled reboot.

18:45:55 mircea_popescu: 17:32:44 renart: the maximum number of operational systems continues to decrease

18:46:53 *: asciilifeform wonders what will be next after we get reasonably gnomeproof machinery

18:47:05 *: asciilifeform suspects that gnomes will have to resort to reducing the number of operational... people

18:49:10 mircea_popescu: yeah. to be established, on which side.

18:54:24 mircea_popescu: god damned it. /me says to woman, "just set the soup on a low fire, i'll serve myself", promptly forgets about the entire thing. soup boils patiently for 40 minutes.

18:54:40 mircea_popescu: i tell ye.... comfort is the enemy of competence.

18:55:00 asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/3ZF8RVK << from the dept of l0lz

18:55:05 assbot: dpaste: 3ZF8RVK ... ( http://bit.ly/1NDGcc7 )

19:00:58 asciilifeform: ;;isup thewhet.net

19:01:04 gribble: thewhet.net is up

19:01:08 asciilifeform: hm

19:01:15 asciilifeform: dont tell me these were all 1 box1!111

19:06:17 asciilifeform: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=940941.0 << what was this ?

19:06:19 assbot: A summary of the logs ... ( http://bit.ly/1NDH8wX )

19:09:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform apparently some guy trying to inform the tardstalk ?

19:09:59 asciilifeform: evidently

19:10:15 asciilifeform: looks like he put in some good sweat. briefly.

19:10:25 mircea_popescu: aha.

19:10:32 mircea_popescu: that could be the story of the united states.

19:10:40 mircea_popescu: "hey... these guys put in some good sweat! briefly...."

19:10:56 asciilifeform: story of every living thing.

19:11:17 mircea_popescu: "But Chill is not the opposite of uptight. It is the opposite of demanding accountability. Chill is a sinister refashioning of ?Calm down!? from an enraging and highly gendered command into an admirable attitude. Chill suggests that young love is best expressed as competitive ambivalence. Chill demands that you see a Read receipt followed by a ?Hey, was asleep? text three hours later and not proceed to throw yo

19:11:17 mircea_popescu: ur phone into the nearest volcano. Chill asks you to be like, ?LOL, what volcano?? Chill presides over the funeral of reasonable expectations. Chill takes and never gives. Chill is pathologically unfeeling but not even interesting enough to kill anyone. Chill is a garbage virtue that will destroy the species. Fuck Chill."

19:11:28 mircea_popescu: ahaha check out chick angry at like things and stuff.

19:11:39 mircea_popescu: DENAMDINK ACUNTABILITITS!!!

19:12:07 mircea_popescu: that's where she's got the idea for accountability. obama's doin' aite, i guess. it's the schmuck sort-of dating her that needs more of the gel.

19:12:46 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has clearly never been a peon

19:12:56 mircea_popescu: " I don’t think that it is so much to ask that I be considered a thing — at least some kind of thing — if I am engaging in emotional or sexual intimacy with someone."

19:12:59 asciilifeform: 'accountability' for obamitler sounds rather like accountability for a thunderstorm

19:13:26 mircea_popescu: it's funny how this shit works - all teh victorious 4-th shitwave feminism somehow left actual females on the ground with a thicker implement with more barbs on it up their ass.

19:13:52 mircea_popescu: "I routinely happen upon men who are perplexed when I eventually declare that I want to know where we stand. Indecision is not a noble virtue."

19:14:20 mircea_popescu: "here's where we stand : until and unless you burn down the entire politico-juridistical establishment of the entire faux-free world, i ain't signing any paper with you."

19:14:46 mircea_popescu: seems entirely reasonable, after a fashion.

19:15:16 mircea_popescu: My feelings, and the feelings of many people I know, are more hurt by the prolonged waiting for a concrete answer while we sit quietly with our feigned Chill. It is as if I?ve broken some unwritten law when I ask what they are looking for and am dissatisfied with the answer ?I don?t really like to put labels on things.? But putting labels on things are how people find the exit during a fire and make sure they

19:15:16 mircea_popescu: ?re adding vanilla extract to the cake instead of arsenic.

19:15:24 mircea_popescu: o look at that, NOW the labels on things are a good thing ?

19:15:36 asciilifeform: y'know, if men were bees, ready to sting and die for the motherland any time, we would not be in any of the shit.

19:15:37 mircea_popescu: fuck me... who came up with this entire "labels on things" bullshit ? and what did you think it was going to do ?

19:15:49 mircea_popescu: you can't fight power. you can think you do. and then fail and wonder where you went wrong.

19:16:01 mircea_popescu: here's where you went wrong : power is power. you're you. figure it out already.

19:16:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform bees are technically social media journalists. vestigially female, overweight, buzzing around for the buzz.

19:16:46 asciilifeform: aha but bee has no problem with 'go shoot a cop'

19:16:59 mircea_popescu: does, actually.

19:17:07 mircea_popescu: has no problem with "go shoot an alien". which...

19:17:44 mircea_popescu: the "go shoot a cop" strategy would be where bee activates her ovaries, other bees kill her offspring, she kills [one of] those other bees.

19:17:50 mircea_popescu: this is pointedly not happening. because they're bees.

19:17:56 asciilifeform: ah in that sense yea

19:19:15 mircea_popescu: anyway, lulzy read for me. "what do you mean coming up with this complex theoretico-fantastico-nonsensical echaufadage did EXACTLY NOTHING ?!?!?!?!? but i thought thoughts alter reality! we rose the awareness to lilac levels!"

19:19:56 asciilifeform: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fg0jw/could_a_cartel_of_pool_operators_collude_to/ctoavfi << from deep in the l0lminez

19:19:58 assbot: luke-jr comments on Could a cartel of pool operators collude to 51%-attack the blockchain and/or change the protocol? ... ( http://bit.ly/1NDI98l )

19:20:07 *: asciilifeform somehow missed this

19:21:01 mircea_popescu: "I can even get it up to 2 or 3 block confirmation before the real network overtakes it with a longer chain. This is a risk accepted as a tradeoff by SPV clients, but not acceptable for full node clients which are expected to be secure on their own."

19:21:21 mircea_popescu: derp ? how is "secure on its own" work when you're not actually looking at confirms ? nonsense alreadyt.

19:22:15 asciilifeform: interesting fella. very persistent in his multi-year braindamage; what moves him? usg kidnapped his dog? mining pool ?

19:22:58 asciilifeform: incidentally, the latter habitually connects via ~my~ trb nodez

19:23:08 asciilifeform: so does he practice what he preaches ?

19:23:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 126100 @ 0.0005005 = 63.1131 BTC [+] {3}

19:23:28 mircea_popescu: he has an excess of will and a shortage of intelligence.

19:23:48 asciilifeform: shouldn't he be off shooting a sheriff somewhere, then ?

19:23:58 mircea_popescu: the fate of such folk, especially when unparented, is fundamentally speaking the

19:24:18 mircea_popescu: what was that group of idiots that died of hunger/ate each other in nevada ?

19:24:58 asciilifeform: can't recall such

19:25:47 mircea_popescu: donner party.

19:28:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nice paste, for it includes the fee schedule huh.,

19:32:22 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347340 << 4th has the advantage of time.

19:32:22 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:32:44; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347209 << 4th reich now owns moar europe than 3rd did

19:34:03 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347302 << classic.

19:34:03 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:11:24; liquidassets: Pete, you're like a hero to me, please don't make me call you a punk again.

19:34:16 pete_dushenski: ima contravexbash this

19:38:59 mircea_popescu: "We exposed ourselves to a huge single point of failure called Facebook. I?ve ranted for years about how bad an idea it is for startups to be mobile-carrier dependent. In retrospect, there is no difference between Verizon Wireless and Facebook in this context."

19:39:01 mircea_popescu: heh.

19:39:04 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347332 << not quite the same. for weed, sellers just have to be 'licensed' ; whereas with drivers ed, sounds like dutch are putting the teacher in control and letting him separate the lemma from the palea so that he's not forced to bang mayo-gendered just because girl can't pay any other way

19:39:04 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:26:13; asciilifeform: buy? walk. sell? jail

19:39:11 mircea_popescu: anyone wanna bet that this schmuck is using gmail ?

19:39:41 mircea_popescu: "oh... there's no difference between that velociraptor that ate my arm, and that other velociraptor that ate my arm. wanna come play with my velociraptor ? no ? what do you mean no!"

19:40:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: complicated. i have a human (non-gmail) mailbox that can't use mircea_popescu's algorithm (has to be able to receive from strangers) and it costs me perhaps 20min/day of manual spam filtration

19:40:13 mircea_popescu: "We could have and should have used the proceeds of the convertible note to get out from under Facebook?s thumb rather to invest further in the Facebook Platform."

19:40:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right.

19:40:43 mircea_popescu: nobody said the life on the farm ain't easier, prikoke.

19:40:52 mircea_popescu: i was under the impression something else's discussed there.

19:41:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'Тяжело в деревне без нагана. И с наганом - тоже тяжело.' (tm) (r)

19:41:37 mircea_popescu: aha.

19:41:53 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347347 << ben_v_on_a_rocket would be better. not a fan of 'renart' fwiw.

19:41:53 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:32:44; asciilifeform: is renart ben_vulpes's 'ascii_field' or wat

19:41:57 mircea_popescu: nagana huh ?

19:42:18 mircea_popescu: "my nagant nagana's better than your koichi katana!"

19:43:05 asciilifeform: l0l

19:43:36 asciilifeform: in same vein, 'Лучше старенький ТТ, чем дзюдо и карате.'

19:44:44 asciilifeform: socket no message in first 60 seconds, 0 1 ahahahahahaha

19:45:04 asciilifeform: this is getting old

19:45:05 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347371 << don't recall this from barber's 'the sultans', so that's out.

19:45:05 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:35:45; asciilifeform: and can anybody recall where i got the notion that ottomans had headless races? (two prisoners run past swordsmen, heads chopped, hot iron 'thumb tacks' inserted in stumps, bodies keep running)

19:45:17 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: certainly not from there

19:45:58 pete_dushenski: the level of graphicness of that depiction makes me think it wasn't even in engligh

19:46:04 pete_dushenski: english*

19:50:44 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347412 << to the extent that the disadvantage of having kids is inflexibility and increased desire for a fixed locality, and that the advantage of renting is the ability to bounce from place to place with relatively low friction, then yes. but the other advantages of renting, namely financial (repair costs, downside of housing market, unproductive use of large amou

19:50:44 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:47:27; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347236 << the advantages of renting are mutually incompatible with the disadvantages of having kids. so...

19:50:44 pete_dushenski: nt of capital), are retained regardless of the presence or absence of children

19:51:25 pete_dushenski: there's also nothing stopping tenants and landlords to signing 5-year leases

19:51:25 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski most rentals specify no pets.

19:51:31 mircea_popescu: you ain't getting the landlord to do your repairs.

19:52:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you're in an above-board deal, law in all 50 states demands: landlord - pays for repair.

19:52:17 asciilifeform: getting it to actually happen - another matter

19:52:21 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: most rental apartments specify no pets because it's a whole building policy

19:52:48 asciilifeform: also most small-time (vs mega-tower) landlords will accept pet if you pay a bond

19:53:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so simple as all that, not really. what, you leave water running each week, landlord fixes ?

19:53:16 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-12-2015#1338673 << washing machine counts as 'repair', no ?

19:53:16 assbot: Logged on 07-12-2015 23:34:54; mircea_popescu: and if you want actual numbers, i just got a coupla girlies an apt. the sale value would have been i guess 160-170k or so. the monthly rent is 750. the first month, the washing machine went, and the owner replaced it. the next month, ac went (brother was that an incredible pos job wow), owner replaced it. so far owner's been making 0 from his property.

19:53:42 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski most of your "repairs" expenses when you have kids are sadly not of this kind.

19:54:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: landlord per se is not even always involved: everything is b/w tenant and insurance co.

19:54:06 pete_dushenski: sadly indeed.

19:54:27 *: pete_dushenski not looking forward to 'other repairs'

19:54:28 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform insurance co does not give you new matressess because kid pissed it ; nor new shoes because dog chewed them.

19:54:41 asciilifeform: these are not repairs in the sane sense

19:54:47 mircea_popescu: you don;'t have children.

19:54:51 asciilifeform: have nothing to do with the leased property

19:54:58 asciilifeform: american flats don't come with mattresses omfg

19:54:59 pete_dushenski: and new mattresses and shoes will be required regardless of rent or own

19:55:00 mircea_popescu: point remains.

19:55:33 pete_dushenski: american flats don't come with mattresses omfg << even if they did, no one would use them.

19:55:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude, seriously, the only time i rented in that part of the world, place came with complete everything. boxsprings.

19:55:49 asciilifeform: that is called a hotel where i live

19:55:52 mircea_popescu: maybe i should dig out / give you comp details or something ?!

19:56:10 mircea_popescu: loft apt hotel ? rented by the year ?!

19:56:10 asciilifeform: over here it is called 'extended stay hotel' and is much as mircea_popescu describes.

19:56:17 pete_dushenski: mattress industry is everywhere present because it has huge margins and everyone wants a better night's sleep, which also means foregoing someone else's bed bugs

19:56:17 asciilifeform: used by business travellers

19:56:21 mircea_popescu: twas a rental.

19:56:47 asciilifeform: but in all seriousness, i've seen ads for rentals-cum-furniture

19:57:17 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski now you're thinking airbnb

20:04:17 asciilifeform: incidentally, a find:

20:04:40 asciilifeform: a trb node in the 'blackhole' state is also extremely slow to respond to local api reqs

20:04:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15334 @ 0.00050194 = 7.6967 BTC [+] {2}

20:06:31 ben_vulpes: a trb node doing much of anything at all is pretty slow to respond to local api requests.

20:06:38 asciilifeform: mno.

20:07:07 ben_vulpes: other than listening for new blocks in steady state in my experience.

20:07:16 asciilifeform: when processing tx, it responds

20:07:24 asciilifeform: because these do not take massive nonpreemptible block of time.

20:07:42 asciilifeform: this is a consequence of the idiot cooperative-multitask model used.

20:07:56 asciilifeform: (where sockets are walked in order and serviced one at a time)

20:08:22 ben_vulpes: thanks, critical_section!

20:08:33 asciilifeform: so at this point i'm pretty certain where 'black hole' comes from.

20:09:04 asciilifeform: (also recall that the block verification dead-time happens ~at both ends~ of a connection)

20:09:05 ben_vulpes: and critical_block and friends.

20:09:16 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha

20:09:17 ben_vulpes: oh yes?

20:09:22 asciilifeform: think about it

20:09:36 asciilifeform: you connect to x, and at that time x swallows a block

20:09:38 asciilifeform: you hang.

20:09:39 ben_vulpes: well i'm yes? ing about the black hole.

20:10:06 ben_vulpes: oh this is an explanation for said?

20:10:08 asciilifeform: aha

20:10:24 asciilifeform: and while you're hanging, everybody who was connected ~to you~ has a hanging socket

20:11:01 ben_vulpes: just to be sure i'm on the same page, this 'hang' eventually ends when the node completely processes the block?

20:11:13 asciilifeform: or when 'socket closed'

20:11:14 asciilifeform: (timeout)

20:11:17 ben_vulpes: mhm.

20:11:28 ben_vulpes: well that's horrendous.

20:25:21 TomServo: I'm unable to get a matching sha256sum on 0.5.4-TEST2 [x86-64] [Latest] at thebitcoin.foundation - could anyone confirm?

20:25:54 TomServo: I do get a match on 0.5.3 and 0.5.3.1, perhaps I'm doing something wrong?

20:32:23 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Will decline to confirm

20:33:54 BingoBoingo: classmate in college held "fundraiser" in college after game show tricked her into taking pink and green SUV instead of money

21:03:42 BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347314

21:03:42 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 17:19:18; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347154 << folks in usaschwitz have been driven into penury by... winning a car in a lotto. (taxable!!11)

21:15:07 BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347622 << "High end" furnished apartements advertising themselve as such exist. Frenquently offered as "executive" option by "big tower" apartment renters.

21:15:07 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 19:56:10; asciilifeform: over here it is called 'extended stay hotel' and is much as mircea_popescu describes.

21:21:06 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> and while you're hanging, everybody who was connected ~to you~ has a hanging socket << yeah it propagates holes.

21:21:54 mircea_popescu: hola TomServo

21:25:30 TomServo: ahoy mircea_popescu

21:25:46 BingoBoingo: I'm surprised no one on the Luke-Jr derpity herp herp reddit thread pointed out you are supposed to wait for 6 confirmations

21:26:30 mircea_popescu: they don't want that part of bitcoin anymore. it's "blockchain technologies" now as far as reddit is concered, with spv mining, 0tx fees and hopefully increasing block subsidies in the future.

21:26:46 mircea_popescu: in other news, "Tutorspree didn?t scale because we were single channel dependent and that channel shifted on us radically and suddenly. SEO was baked into our model from the start, and it became increasingly important to the business as we grew and evolved. In our early days, and during Y Combinator, we didn?t have money to spend on acquisition. SEO was free so we focused on it and got good at it.

21:26:47 mircea_popescu: That worked brilliantly for us. We acquired users for practically nothing by using the content and site structure generated as a byproduct of our tutor acquisition. However, that success was also a trap. It convinced us that there had to be another channel that would perform for us at the level of SEO.

21:26:47 mircea_popescu: In our first year, that conviction drove our experiments with a series of other channels: PPC, partnerships, deals, guerilla type tactics, targeted mailings, craigslist posting tools, etc. Each experiment produced results inferior to those from SEO. The acquisition costs through those channels were significantly higher than what was allowable based on our revenue per customers. We also found that potential customers co

21:26:52 jurov: mod6 asciilifeform: the turd http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-December/000186.html

21:26:53 assbot: [BTC-dev] Taming the mempool ... ( http://bit.ly/1NvyaEi )

21:26:53 mircea_popescu: ming through PPC were converted at a lower rate than those originating through SEO. Even as we sharpened our targeting, experimented with messaging, and sought advice and consulting from more experienced parties, we found that paid channels just weren?t good enough to merit real focus."

21:27:34 mircea_popescu: but hey... "online advertising is an industree. because google "makes revenue" from it, which is to say some people recycle bezzle funds through there and everyone outside actually believes someone somewhere paid 5bn for ppc.

21:32:17 shinohai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347672 <<< will try when I arrive home.

21:32:17 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 21:26:52; jurov: mod6 asciilifeform: the turd http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-December/000186.html

21:33:09 jurov: shinohai: first read it. there are atrocities like CBlockIndex[400000] buried there.

21:33:30 mircea_popescu: 400000 should be enough for everyone.

21:35:42 mircea_popescu: "From the comfort of the backyard cabin we moved to big city San Francisco and faced the totally hopeless situation of finding a place to live. We survived the first two weeks by renting office space at Tradeshift and sleeping on their couches at night. Not sure if they ever found that out. Finally we managed to get a 9 m2/97 sqft room through our Y-Combinator network. Rent $1,250. Dang! But since we had free office sp

21:35:42 mircea_popescu: ace from our friends at OneLogin, our burnrate wasn?t yet gone through the roof. But close.."

21:35:44 mircea_popescu: ajhahahaha WHAT!

21:36:34 asciilifeform: jurov: pretty interesting, i'll say more after i actually read the thing

21:37:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39900 @ 0.00050205 = 20.0318 BTC [+] {2}

21:39:41 mircea_popescu: http://fridriksson.tumblr.com/post/86584610871/a-startup-postmortem-with-a-happy-ending-in << perhaps a lulzy read for the forensic psychiatrist. what motivates some kids to live in a coffin for which they pay monthly the lifetime value of an average human being, while at the same time go all "We did the show and tell dance at Techcrunch Disrupt and DEMO. Networked at GigaOm RoadMap Con and YC Startup School. Got tons

21:39:42 assbot: A startup postmortem with a happy ending? ..in... | By the Beard of Zeus! ... ( http://bit.ly/1Nvz17S )

21:39:42 mircea_popescu: of advice. Met people with amazing experience. We felt we were in the nexus of entrepreneurship and innovation. And we probably were. [...] It was like our feet never touched the ground." and no, i don't think it would be http://38.media.tumblr.com/74c80afbbf82765c41d7beec32221d2f/tumblr_inline_n60qz3Ti3Q1r0ojkh.jpg as everyone in that pic is distinctly uncomfortable with the bunny suit they gotta wear to cater to my

21:39:42 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

21:39:43 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Nvz17U )

21:39:43 mircea_popescu: expectations of life and the world.

21:39:44 jurov: while i was on it, 3 days vanished in blur

21:40:02 mircea_popescu: somehow this gargle thing works do. it does something. it drives the kids loco.

21:40:31 jurov: (note i'm not employed. these were full days. and still far from result)

21:40:48 jurov: it was scary

21:41:12 mircea_popescu: there's a reason nobody really touched the spaghetti monster in five years jurov and this'd be that reason.

21:41:26 mircea_popescu: sad state of affairs.

21:41:34 ben_vulpes: i've been there too, jurov

21:41:37 asciilifeform: jurov: i've been bashing my head against the thing pretty actively, on and off, for >1yr now. so you're doing pretty well.

21:42:13 ben_vulpes: i've almost forgotten how painful it is. i can tell because i'm itching to muntz further.

21:43:06 asciilifeform: 'The next idea was,that heap is sprinkled with permanently allocated blocks data causing inability for malloc to release the memory back to the OS. I went to try and allocate these separately... and boy does that rabbit hole go deep...' << ty jurov, i was actually in the middle of doing this, and now i don't have to, l0l !!

21:43:16 mircea_popescu: 98.x% of my contribution as far as fucking up my own tech dept goes to date has been variations of "STOP WITH THE DAMNED CODE" and such.

21:43:27 mircea_popescu: i am firmly convinced that you can lose an entire team of engineers in there, permanently.

21:43:39 mircea_popescu: gotta very carefully do raids and incursisions with a clear retreat plan.

21:44:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22100 @ 0.00050212 = 11.0969 BTC [+] {3}

21:44:44 *: asciilifeform is plagued by the suspicion that we are trying to remove a 20kg metastatic tumour using.. acupuncture

21:44:58 mircea_popescu: this is not a sprint. it's not even a marathon. the most important thing, by a large margin, is plox don't kill yourselves fighting with it. if anyone goes "i'll tend to my ulcer once i sorted out THIS thing", that someone's going to be remembered as naggum 2.

21:45:23 asciilifeform: 3.

21:45:30 jurov: heh

21:45:40 mircea_popescu: so work hygienically. diligence is good, hygiene is non-negotiable.

21:46:04 jurov: well. the nastiest smell i felt was from std::map, so i suggest to approach that one next.

21:46:15 asciilifeform: 'The noise at 42 hour mark is zapmempool call, which shows it's still not really working.' << waitasec am i missing something ?

21:46:17 shinohai: Also asciilifeform ty for Programmable Version Strings patch

21:46:28 asciilifeform: i though the whole thing was about how jurov found a way to actually deallocate tx

21:46:49 jurov: they are deallocated. but malloc won't give it back to teh system

21:46:51 mircea_popescu: that didn't really work.

21:46:54 mircea_popescu: aha.

21:46:54 ben_vulpes: this is a pile of work jurov, wd

21:47:30 asciilifeform: quite possibly the only way to actually make this go is a garbage collector ~with object relocation~

21:47:39 asciilifeform: which is a mega-backbreaker

21:47:52 asciilifeform: (if you can't relocate, YOU CAN'T DEFRAG)

21:47:57 mircea_popescu: it won't work.

21:48:07 mircea_popescu: partly because c++. what's an object ?

21:48:09 asciilifeform: i was about to describe the only possible way to make it work.

21:48:16 mircea_popescu: ah don't mind me, proceed.

21:48:24 asciilifeform: naturally, you can't actually move a cpp obj because of pointer spaghetti.

21:48:40 mircea_popescu: for starters. and because compiler will fuck you.

21:48:52 asciilifeform: but what you ~can~ do is 1) pick a tx which must move 2) declare it dead temporarily, copy to a cache 3) introduce it as if it were a new incoming tx.

21:49:03 mircea_popescu: won't deallocate anything.

21:49:06 mircea_popescu: will allocate more stuff.

21:49:14 asciilifeform: deallocates ~that region~

21:49:28 mircea_popescu: does it now ?

21:49:33 asciilifeform: then you do the next arithmetically-adjacent tx, ad infinitum, until you have N contiguous bts free

21:49:38 jurov: asciilifeform: std::map is biggest problem that the actual tx+its script

21:49:44 mircea_popescu: ^

21:49:57 jurov: it rebalances a tree often, creating yet bigger mess

21:50:08 mircea_popescu: and odds are std::map is not even correctly implemented, and we don't even know exactly where.

21:52:09 asciilifeform: the correct solution to this is more or less equivalent to writing a filesystem.

21:52:24 mircea_popescu: it's more.

21:52:42 asciilifeform: approx. the same. result will look quite like, e.g., reiserfs.

21:52:47 mircea_popescu: but you surely recall the original discussions of "bitcoin-as-filesystem" as a precursor to bitcoin-os

21:52:48 jurov: i'm completely fine with 70% - filled hashtable

21:52:56 jurov: even a filesystem won't get much better

21:53:25 mircea_popescu: jurov honestly i think the original design intent was that.

21:53:29 asciilifeform: the other side of this medal is that tx is simply too cheap today.

21:53:30 mircea_popescu: apparently it didn't pan out.

21:53:54 jurov: http://dpaste.com/3HMD8F1 << igprof pointing to teh map

21:53:56 assbot: dpaste: 3HMD8F1: igprof MEM_LIVE ... ( http://bit.ly/1NvzU0l )

21:53:59 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is an infelicity of puberty. we can't do anything about that yet.

21:54:32 mircea_popescu: bitchslapping the redditards "we need free shit because that's what we're worth" is one thing. actually making txn cost what they cost is a whole other can of whipass.

21:54:55 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what we ~can~ do is to proclaim that nodes having finite tx capacity will order by value-per-bt and order connection priority likewise by avg. value/bt of incoming tx, and so on recursively.

21:55:04 mircea_popescu: std::vector<char, zero_after_free_allocator<char> >::operator=(std::vector<char, zero_after_free_allocator<char> > const&) [55]

21:55:06 mircea_popescu: heh mk

21:55:10 jurov: ^ and that vector thing in the third place was the bignum idiocy

21:55:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is the original plan neh ?

21:55:21 asciilifeform: aha

21:55:29 mircea_popescu: it's good enough, imo.

21:55:40 mircea_popescu: ie, a perfectly solid solution to the problem of tx price.

21:55:51 asciilifeform: it is also a perfectly good simulation of a planet without reddit

21:56:25 asciilifeform: the only flaw is that, on the naked net as we now have it, usg can inject poor tx in between any two nodes

21:56:44 asciilifeform: and move a perfectly legit node into pederasty vis a vis another node

21:57:45 mircea_popescu: in a thoroughly tangential tangent : CRYPTO_malloc is likely as porous as thin gauze.

21:57:59 jurov: mircea_popescu: it's aliased to malloc

21:58:13 jurov: but that version did not have openssl compiled with debug

21:58:17 mircea_popescu: wasn't it a "special" thing with memory protection ?

21:58:18 mircea_popescu: ah ok.

21:58:21 mircea_popescu: i meant the openssl thing

21:58:29 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you might be confusing with gpg

21:58:34 mircea_popescu: mno.

21:58:34 asciilifeform: which indeed has such a thing

21:58:39 asciilifeform: (allocates from unpageable mem)

21:59:05 jurov: however, there *is* some special context management for temporary operations on bignums

21:59:16 jurov: not looked closer yet

21:59:31 mircea_popescu: ;;google CRYPTO_malloc() in libcrypto

21:59:31 gribble: Ignoring whining about OpenSSL in Valgrind - rachelbythebay: https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2012/12/14/quiet/; openssl / valgrind - Stack Overflow: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/472809/openssl-valgrind; #299 (Second memory leak) – libssh2: http://trac.libssh2.org/ticket/299

21:59:47 mircea_popescu: heh. how do you tell google to look inside source of code packages ?

22:00:01 asciilifeform: iirc 'google code' is defunct now

22:00:11 asciilifeform: was abolished because cattle didn't need it for anything

22:00:27 mircea_popescu: anyway. the thing leaks like a sieve.

22:01:27 jurov: http://osxr.org/openssl/ident?_i=CRYPTO_malloc&_remember=1 i found this

22:01:28 assbot: openssl-1.0.1h identifier search: CRYPTO_malloc ... ( http://bit.ly/1NvApYg )

22:01:50 mircea_popescu: ah here we go i think http://osxr.org/openssl/source/crypto/crypto.h#0368

22:01:50 assbot: openssl-1.0.1h/crypto/crypto.h ... ( http://bit.ly/1NvAqLK )

22:02:15 jurov: it does some dance, but in the end calls malloc every time

22:02:31 *: asciilifeform is still curious how the mega-contradiction between 'fix bitcoin' and 'hands off your father's vintage pistols' is to be resolved.

22:02:32 jurov: from here http://osxr.org/openssl/source/crypto/mem.c#0077

22:02:32 assbot: openssl-1.0.1h/crypto/mem.c ... ( http://bit.ly/1NvAv21 )

22:03:05 asciilifeform: openssl stinks, plain and simple.

22:03:08 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform slowly. just like the contradiction between "don't hurt the woman" and "she bleeds" is resolved in practice3.

22:03:50 mircea_popescu: jurov introducing various crashes along the way and a whole pile of complex strange.

22:03:58 asciilifeform: what, approximately, would it take for mircea_popescu to plug in a replacement for openssl in a live battlefield btctron of his own ?

22:04:08 mircea_popescu: but yes it would, in typical manner of the shitgnomerism that it is, exist solely as a leech-wrapper on something else.

22:04:16 mircea_popescu: it wouldn'\t do any work, just... you know, supervize.

22:04:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a wot sig.

22:04:51 ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: how's your libressl node faring?

22:04:59 mircea_popescu: what would it take for you to plug your only penis in the folds of a new hussy ?

22:05:03 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Still on mainnet

22:05:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for an accurate analogy, it has to be on a planet where dentata exist

22:05:26 mircea_popescu: they do.

22:05:51 mircea_popescu: ;;google m-ai facut din om neom, cind ma pis ma tin de pom.

22:05:52 gribble: Mihai Margineanu raluca - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDK_ooivXd8; Versurile preferate dintr-o melodie - Page 4 - Diverse - Comunitatea ...: http://www.linkmania.ro/topic/140118-versurile-preferate-dintr-o-melodie/?page=4

22:05:56 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'libressl' suffers from exactly the same diseases as the other one

22:06:04 mircea_popescu: dja have a ru equiv ?

22:06:58 *: jurov notes down reminder to always scan pubic area for wot signatures

22:07:26 mircea_popescu: lol

22:07:38 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: LibreSSL node also runs with ~1GB of ram utilized at startup after last BDB locks patch because OpenBSD malloc something or other

22:07:48 mircea_popescu: just making the point that he's got a single appendage, still sticks it into strange.

22:08:40 asciilifeform: libressl is an atrocity in no important way distinguishable from the original.

22:08:51 mircea_popescu: well, at least it's a [mostly] different one.

22:08:53 asciilifeform: its whole purpose, as far as i can tell, is to take up mental space.

22:09:01 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Also still on OpenBSD 5.7 don't know if 5.8's introduced new weird

22:12:03 punkman: !s polarssl

22:12:04 assbot: 7 results for 'polarssl' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=polarssl

22:12:07 ben_vulpes: more software, more problems.

22:12:12 asciilifeform: polarssl - also a turd

22:12:24 asciilifeform: IF I CAN'T READ IT IN AN EVENING it is a turd

22:12:36 punkman: well you gotta write it then

22:12:38 asciilifeform: IT DOES NOT TAKE 50MB OF SRC to do ecc crypto

22:12:41 mircea_popescu: the only strange thing is this guy HASNT already joined the mujahedeen

22:12:53 mircea_popescu: you know alf, they're the only people that agree everything sucks.

22:13:56 *: asciilifeform idly wonders what a caliphate-approved programming system might look like

22:14:03 mircea_popescu: excel ?

22:14:03 punkman: what was that other one hmm

22:14:07 *: asciilifeform for some reason pictures a variation on 'intercal'

22:14:09 punkman: !s micro ecc

22:14:10 assbot: 14 results for 'micro ecc' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=micro+ecc

22:14:17 asciilifeform: !s nanoecc

22:14:17 assbot: 0 results for 'nanoecc' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=nanoecc

22:14:19 shinohai: !rate liquidassets 1 welcome to #b-a

22:14:19 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/5a57b534b1e4c6ff

22:14:21 asciilifeform: hm

22:14:46 asciilifeform: punkman: there was one, at one point i even cleaned it up a bit and posted to trb ml. BUT i was never actually able to get it to work

22:15:04 asciilifeform: nor put in the very real effort needed to properly grasp what the author thought he was doing.

22:15:14 punkman: did it compile?

22:15:18 asciilifeform: it did.

22:15:22 asciilifeform: which is all i can say for it.

22:15:26 asciilifeform: (segfaults immediately)

22:15:37 punkman: there's an ada crypto library that does EC

22:16:05 asciilifeform: phun phakt: a conforming ada implementation has ~internal bignum~ BUT won't let you use it for anything constructive.

22:16:15 asciilifeform: (the compiler demands it to have limitless tables, etc)

22:16:21 PeterL: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347457 << there is a large group of people (mortgage originators, real-estate agents, etc) trying to convince people how amazing a mortgage is

22:16:21 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

22:16:21 assbot: Logged on 19-12-2015 18:20:05; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-12-2015#1347241 << the thing scammers never tell the scamee is that investing is a professional activity. no fucking exceptions.

22:16:37 shinohai: !v assbot:shinohai.rate.liquidassets.1:e2a5762104da4eb5a2db892b8fe1861592c10b3006f61f49213e83b8d43b2a38

22:16:38 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for liquidassets with note: welcome to #b-a

22:16:54 asciilifeform: PeterL: there is also a large group of people trying to convince anybody who will listen how great afterlife is

22:17:03 mircea_popescu: mortgage has actually a very respectable history of unhinging idiots from their own money.

22:17:05 punkman: been reading more Ada at odd intervals, keeps getting weirder

22:17:18 mircea_popescu: it was, historically, the principal instrument used by the burgeoisie to lynch the aristocracy

22:17:31 mircea_popescu: the beauty of it is that it does more indirectly than directly.

22:17:36 asciilifeform: ahaha mortgaged castles etc

22:17:41 mircea_popescu: yup. but why ?

22:17:45 mircea_popescu: gotta keep up with the jones.

22:17:56 mircea_popescu: EXACTLY the same mechanism. nobody is about to ask his dearly beloved wife

22:18:27 mircea_popescu: "listen you dumb cunt, who the fuck told you must deserve a roof over your head, can't just wash stuff by hand in the river ?"

22:19:01 mircea_popescu: similarly, the 9th earl of dumbass couldn't readily say "so what if the marquis of idiot has six horses pulling his cart ?"

22:19:46 mircea_popescu: once it starts liquidating privilege, it can't practically be stopped. network effects.

22:20:01 asciilifeform: except at the end you simply get a new aristocracy

22:20:11 asciilifeform: that is on the receiving end of the extractor pipe

22:20:18 mircea_popescu: nope. that's the problem. at the end you just get the burgeois desert.

22:20:30 PeterL: liberates the stupid from their money, lets the smart take over?

22:20:31 mircea_popescu: anyway, jp had same problem - excised it. for as long as kept it out... survived.

22:20:45 mircea_popescu: PeterL more often than not, a different flavour of stupid.

22:22:26 punkman: asciilifeform: there's also https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1 :trollface:

22:22:27 assbot: bitcoin/secp256k1 · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1O03FHT )

22:22:37 asciilifeform: l0l

22:22:59 mircea_popescu: now look : you can't dismiss that thing just because it exists.

22:22:59 punkman: it's even in C without the ++

22:23:10 mircea_popescu: it has good reasons to exist, which are exactly what we're discussing here.

22:23:20 *: mircea_popescu wants serious review of the secp256k1 thing.

22:23:22 asciilifeform: i'd like to know how the rangerz achieved the mandatory goal of making it an unreadable megalith

22:23:27 punkman: they are putting it in next version iirc

22:23:34 asciilifeform: was there a commissar standing, 'add moar codez'

22:24:13 *: asciilifeform dredged through it a while ago, but will not sign anything

22:24:17 mircea_popescu: wouldja keep an open mind ?

22:25:10 asciilifeform: sure

22:25:23 asciilifeform: but if we're gonna terraform existing item, i'd much prefer the nano ecc thing.

22:25:32 asciilifeform: which is READABLY light.

22:25:38 mircea_popescu: sure. jus' sayin'.

22:27:59 mircea_popescu: Intended to be portable to any system with a C89 compiler and uint64_t support. << a large part of why it'd be large.

22:28:17 asciilifeform: i must disagree

22:28:33 asciilifeform: 'portable' on my planet means PORTABLE and not a gaggle of #ifdef's

22:28:47 asciilifeform: each of the latter individually enclosing a totally nonportable turd

22:28:54 PeterL: I thought c was supposed to be portable, why would you have to bloat code to make it go on different systems?

22:29:01 asciilifeform: PeterL: you don't

22:29:12 asciilifeform: but idiots will tell you that shit is the new food

22:29:16 mircea_popescu: your planet also doesn't support java and whatnot.

22:30:14 mircea_popescu: jesus github is fucking unusable.

22:30:25 asciilifeform: https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/blob/master/src/secp256k1.c#L314 << lulzy

22:30:27 assbot: secp256k1/secp256k1.c at master · bitcoin/secp256k1 · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1O04r7L )

22:30:29 asciilifeform: can anybody tell me WHY ?

22:30:35 mircea_popescu: why would you want to have this stupid website and not any sort of x-referencing, line counting, nothing ?

22:30:40 mircea_popescu: "here's a list of filenames"

22:30:43 mircea_popescu: "fuck your mother"

22:30:50 asciilifeform: btw that is the ONLY supported nonce gen fuct ~despite~ a carefully crafted appearance to the contrary

22:30:56 punkman: it does have line counts

22:31:00 asciilifeform: ^

22:31:07 punkman: and even comments per line

22:31:19 asciilifeform: needs graphical wwwtron yes

22:31:20 mircea_popescu: why does it know to make "default_illegal_callback_fn" in "static void default_illegal_callback_fn(const char* str, void* data) {" lioght blue

22:31:24 mircea_popescu: BUT DOES NOT KNOW TO MAKE IT CLICKABLE

22:31:28 mircea_popescu: how is this supposed to work ?

22:31:38 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ah that case. github doesn't parse languages

22:31:47 mircea_popescu: why does it have to parse languages ?

22:31:49 mircea_popescu: tokenize motherfucker.

22:31:52 asciilifeform: because (as we learned in the callgraph escapade) this is hard.

22:31:57 asciilifeform: go, tokenize cpp.

22:31:59 asciilifeform: i'll wait.

22:32:02 mircea_popescu: "here's a list of all oither lines where this string appears"

22:32:09 asciilifeform: aha but gotta tokenize

22:32:10 punkman: asciilifeform: can anybody tell me WHY ? << well it says it right there, because rfc6979

22:32:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform at least fucking function names.

22:32:21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even THIS is hard

22:32:24 asciilifeform: see the callgraph thread!

22:32:25 mircea_popescu: fuck this shit.

22:33:21 mircea_popescu: and sure, graph would be nice, but just a damned list ? really ?

22:33:36 asciilifeform: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=285142.0 << lulzy

22:33:38 assbot: Deterministic Usage of DSA and ECDSA Digital Signature Algorithms (RFC 6979) ... ( http://bit.ly/1O04Jvo )

22:33:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: EXACTLY as hard as the graph

22:33:58 asciilifeform: because in cpp a 'function' is a complicated notion

22:34:06 *: mircea_popescu has a wordcount with references thing for fraudsters.

22:34:14 asciilifeform: aha because we can agree on what a word is

22:34:29 asciilifeform: this thing with 1 or moar spaces on each side.

22:34:38 punkman: we had a few threads about deterministic k etc

22:34:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform an ast is generated SOMEHOW.

22:34:54 ben_vulpes: because github is a thing sillyconvalley bizwrapper around a versoncontrolatroncumhoster for people who don't actually want to or know how to use computers

22:35:05 asciilifeform: punkman: i am still hard pressed to see how it is anything other than a disastrously bad idea

22:35:08 ben_vulpes: "you want jumptodef? lolneckbeard"

22:35:13 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's for managers, basically.

22:35:21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha. you can go and read the gcc (or even clang) front end and see how.

22:35:27 mircea_popescu: coding-as-social-media.

22:35:34 ben_vulpes: precisely.

22:35:50 ben_vulpes: "show the non-technicals what the nerds are doing! with color!"

22:36:23 ben_vulpes: for only ten dollars per user per month

22:36:36 *: ben_vulpes does not even look at that bill any more, $ragetax simply not worthwhile

22:36:40 mircea_popescu: hence the massive "coding streak" and other "productivity' measures, as if coding is a sort of stationary bicycle and who knows, "maybe you wanna know" aka "your boss does"

22:36:44 mircea_popescu: but no fucking usable code anything.

22:36:54 ben_vulpes: write moar l1nez!

22:36:58 mircea_popescu: maybe i want to sort this list of packages by TOTAL COUNT OF REFERENCES. how about that!

22:37:00 asciilifeform: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/a/36142 << i am unable to grasp how the claims could possibly be true

22:37:01 assbot: signature - Problems with deterministic ECDSA based on RFC6979 in Bitcoin - Bitcoin Stack Exchange ... ( http://bit.ly/1O052X4 )

22:37:17 mircea_popescu: i wish to pick which pissing app to use by how many times the alternatives call std::anything.

22:37:26 mircea_popescu: let the code fucking compete already.

22:37:36 asciilifeform: 'Also note that one of the key benefits of using this construction is that you need not worry about a weakness in your PRNG being exploited in the signing process. For example, signing different pieces of data with the same k value instantly leaks your private key. A similar attack can also be exploited if the PRNG is weak enough to determine the relationship between different k values used when signing the same piece of data.

22:37:36 asciilifeform: Since the k is deterministically generated from the data you are signing (and the private key), these concerns about the PRNG are no longer as relevant, as you will always produce the same signature for the same piece of data. This also makes writing ECDSA unit tests easier.'

22:37:42 ben_vulpes: as if ctags were so hard to use.

22:38:18 asciilifeform: deterministic --> moar breakable !111 omfg

22:38:22 ben_vulpes: remind me to tell y'all about the ios build toolchain plugin that makes curl calls ON COMPILE

22:38:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the idea is that it's not random, so you don't get two data points, so you can't use the particular leak thing\

22:38:37 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what ?!

22:38:42 asciilifeform: you get the leak in a straightforward way if k is REUSED

22:38:59 asciilifeform: but you ALSO get same if the same mathematical relationship can be derived from deterministic k.

22:39:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right.

22:39:26 mircea_popescu: but "nobody could determine this" because "we seed with text. AND KEY!!!!1"

22:39:30 asciilifeform: which is ~exactly~ what we get in that rfc.

22:39:41 asciilifeform: this is quite like the 'rng whitening'.

22:39:51 asciilifeform: 'only usg knows how to open this box therefore nobody'

22:39:53 mircea_popescu: see, NOW we got a good reason not to like it.

22:40:12 asciilifeform: i had this reason ~2y ago l0l

22:40:20 mircea_popescu: nevertheless!

22:40:21 *: asciilifeform digs futilely for thread

22:40:42 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yes you see it needs the debug symbols transmitted to some leprous SaaS thing for in-the-field device debugging

22:40:50 ben_vulpes: symbols which it CAN ONLY GET ON COMPILE apparently.

22:40:57 mircea_popescu: huh ?

22:41:05 mircea_popescu: you mean linking yes ?

22:41:13 ben_vulpes: include this 'pod' in your ios build, get HTTP calls on project compile.

22:41:32 ben_vulpes: there isn't much of a separation of concerns in the ios toolchain.

22:41:52 ben_vulpes: there is a big user-friendly button: "run this on my ipnohe or in the simulat0r"

22:41:52 asciilifeform: cannot compile on airplane?

22:42:06 mircea_popescu: lol

22:42:16 ben_vulpes: can always rip pod out temporarily, asciilifeform

22:42:24 *: asciilifeform does not recall any such atrocity when he did ipnohe

22:42:25 ben_vulpes: 'pod's

22:42:26 ben_vulpes: ugh

22:42:30 mircea_popescu: should make for better compiles.

22:42:39 ben_vulpes: it had yet to be shitted up by the rubros.

22:42:47 mircea_popescu: proper hell punishment would be to have to debug this shit.

22:42:49 ben_vulpes: yes! it got worse!

22:44:14 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: do you test on an actual physical ipnohe ?

22:44:33 ben_vulpes: of course

22:44:46 asciilifeform: (iirc this is nontrivial)

22:44:57 ben_vulpes: 6 american regular, 6 small, 5, 5s, the whole gamut.

22:45:04 asciilifeform: quite the zoo.

22:45:07 ben_vulpes: recent bug: "colors are weird on 5s"

22:45:19 ben_vulpes: yes well, life in pursuit of 'kwalidee'

22:47:05 asciilifeform: anyway ipnohe devs think they have a terrible time, but try being a '90s game dev for consoles

22:47:33 asciilifeform: (my brother did this, still has some of the very peculiar hardware)

22:49:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00050214 = 14.311 BTC [+] {2}

22:49:41 asciilifeform: docs were hastily-written and inaccurate, vendor support - spotty, compilers - buggy, architectures - quite 'turkish' and requiring serious asm massage just for acceptable performance.

22:50:33 asciilifeform: BUT nothing 'curl'ed during compile, no.

22:50:50 punkman: asciilifeform: but did they need to have two dozen TVs for testing?

22:50:53 asciilifeform: sure did.

22:53:14 mircea_popescu: well a coupla, at any rate.

22:53:39 asciilifeform: the up-side of slow and finicky comps was that there was a lower limit to the dev iq and a hard upper limit to code bloat.

22:53:54 asciilifeform: but this is elementarily obvious.

22:54:51 BingoBoingo: <punkman> they are putting it in next version iirc << Signing tx with since 0.10 iirc

22:55:14 punkman: "I actually have two implementations of example malicious signers:  One produces non-deterministic signatures and leaks a 256 bit private key, to the holder of a specific public key and no one else, in ~33 signatures with very high probability (failure rate of 1 in 1000 for 33 signatures, around 1 in a million for 34). The other produces a seemingly RFC 6979 like deterministic signatures and

22:55:15 punkman: with a single signature leaks the current private key, and with 16 signatures leaks an additional 256 bit secret (e.g. a master private key, with a failure rate of around 1:1000 for 16 signatures, ~1:1e6 for 17 signatures)." interesting

22:55:26 asciilifeform: http://www.retrogames.co.uk/040022/Sega/Sega-Dreamcast-Development-Console << example of item used then

22:55:29 assbot: Sega Dreamcast Development Console from Retrogames ... ( http://bit.ly/1NDZkXl )

22:55:38 *: asciilifeform rather surprised anybody still has one of these for sale

22:56:08 asciilifeform: punkman: precisely what i was speaking of, except that i conjecture that ANY deterministic signing process is kleptographic

22:56:14 asciilifeform: whether you and i can demonstrate how, or not.

22:56:30 mircea_popescu: this is not a conjecture, but a self-evident axiom

22:56:48 asciilifeform: for exactly same reason as prng !

22:56:55 asciilifeform: (and 'rng with whitening' which IS a prng)

23:07:11 punkman: https://github.com/warner/python-ecdsa/tree/master/ecdsa python ecdsa implementation, used by Electrum, might be good for reading

23:07:12 assbot: python-ecdsa/ecdsa at master · warner/python-ecdsa · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1S0vu4N )

23:10:05 BingoBoingo: But electrum ecsda only has to sign transaction, not verify the BritneyChain

23:14:51 punkman: BingoBoingo: perhaps a good project for students, dump all the blocks from a therealbitcoin node, verify sigs with python-ecdsa or other

23:18:35 mircea_popescu: definitely.

23:19:18 punkman: https://github.com/ionux/phactor heh, pure php secp256k1

23:19:20 assbot: ionux/phactor · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1S0wOo5 )

23:20:48 mircea_popescu: probably for mtgox interoperation ?

23:21:00 punkman: bitpay

23:21:19 mircea_popescu: "My presentation was ok. The mandatory Q&A afterwards was horrible. The only two people in the room that we hadn?t gotten prior support from were skeptical to say the least. As I left the room I was shattered. And as my contact at Accelerace didn?t call me later on that day I knew where it was going. My chairman didn?t either. Not a good sign. I left messages and they didn?t return my calls. In the afternoon I

23:21:19 mircea_popescu: had a speaking engagement in the other end of the country, pitching to a huge room full of potential customers. It was an absurd experience. I was crumbling on the inside but had to pose confidently. " << why the fuck ? just... why ? nobody ever asks this. "i had to lie". really ? why did you have to lie ?

23:21:58 punkman: this might be the shortest one I've seen, no 256k1 though https://github.com/esxgx/easy-ecc/blob/master/ecc.c

23:21:59 assbot: easy-ecc/ecc.c at master · esxgx/easy-ecc · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1S0x46K )

23:22:37 mircea_popescu: "after dropping them off I sat in the rental car staring at air. Crying. Feelings of fear, anger, self-righteousness and uncertainty overwhelmed me." << he has all the patience to consider all the inept minutia of his gender-confused identity. he has not the slightest fucking shred of interest or self-awareness to go "hey, waitasecond, why do i gotta lie again ?"

23:23:14 mircea_popescu: why does ecc.c include string.h or should't i be asking these sorts of questions ?

23:23:47 mircea_popescu: "c thinks arrays are strings, mp" "oh i see, makes sense"

23:26:49 mod6: <+asciilifeform> ;;later tell mod6 does yours (or anybody else's) 'v' verify the hashes ? << mine uses the vpatch hashes to build the dep map

23:27:05 mod6: so no, it does not verify them.

23:27:11 mod6: at least mine doesn't.

23:27:14 mod6: did yours do that?

23:27:42 mod6: if it does, I may have overlooked that somehow.

23:29:25 punkman: https://github.com/jonasnick/ecdsaPredictableNonce attack against libsec256k1 about a year ago

23:29:26 assbot: jonasnick/ecdsaPredictableNonce · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1NE2eeN )

23:30:25 BingoBoingo: Thermos: "No, it basically already has consensus from dev/expert community because it solves so many problems in one go and is pretty simple to understand if you know how Bitcoin works. There are no reasonable objections to SegWit AFAIK." https://archive.is/Q60SC#selection-2433.0-2433.227

23:30:25 assbot: Segregated Witness, Part 1: How a Clever Hack Could Significantly Increase Bitcoin's Potential : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1NE2hHm )

23:30:57 BingoBoingo: And Aaron encouraged the Hebrew people to make a new God of gold rather than Bitcoin while Moses was on Mount Sinai verifying the Godchain https://archive.is/ukHT5

23:30:58 assbot: Segregated Witness, Part 1: How a Clever Hack Could Significantly Increase Bitcoin's Potential | Bitcoin Magazine ... ( http://bit.ly/1NE2iLm )

23:33:52 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "reasonable" eh ?

23:34:06 BingoBoingo: Fucking Thermos

23:34:19 mircea_popescu: funny how that goes, right ?

23:34:30 mircea_popescu: there were no "reasonable" objections to pirate, either.

23:35:25 mircea_popescu: or to marquardt's little glbse insider-trading scam back in the day.

23:35:29 mircea_popescu: or to so many things.

23:35:57 mircea_popescu: thanks the gods above for "reasonable", especially if it can be made to mean "the wolves agree"?

23:36:18 mircea_popescu: !rated theymos

23:36:18 assbot: You rated user theymos on 15-Nov-2014, with a rating of -10, and supplied these additional notes: defrauded the tardstalk community by throwing ~half a million dollars worth of BTC at some obscure service provider for kickbacks. a lenghty history of fraudulent behaviour, http://fraudsters.com/2012/scammer-tag-nefario-theymos-others-known-and-unknown/.

23:36:48 kakobrekla: no, it doesnt go lower than -10

23:36:57 mircea_popescu: speaking of which... we're not expecting a sec investigation, right ? because got better things to do, right ?

23:36:59 mircea_popescu: asswipes.

23:37:01 punkman: why not!

23:37:12 punkman: assbot should go to -11

23:37:17 kakobrekla: l0l

23:37:27 mircea_popescu: eh 10's good enough

23:40:08 mircea_popescu: anyway, birdy on my shoulder whispers that what's meant by "reasonable" certainly is "reasoned". yes, there are no reasoned objections, chiefly because fuck you, that's why.

23:40:46 mircea_popescu: i've had it with this age of bullshit-reason where you gotta explain things to idiots with a first-paragraph-of-many-wikipedia-articles education as if everything can, or indeed should, be put in those terms.

23:40:52 punkman: I think we've listed various reasoned objections here

23:41:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62300 @ 0.00050221 = 31.2877 BTC [+] {3}

23:41:32 BingoBoingo: punkman: But we aren't doing it on Feddit

23:41:44 mircea_popescu: im not aware anyone undertook the effort to write an equivalent of january's "here's the list of gavin xt idiocies and their rebuttals", 10k words over 3 articles sorta thing.

23:41:55 mircea_popescu: certainly the muppets can not be expected to figure things out, so...

23:42:13 mircea_popescu: ever since they came up with the idiotic notion of a vulgate, you're stuck playing the calvin. fuck that.

23:42:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23000 @ 0.00049823 = 11.4593 BTC [-] {2}

23:46:16 mod6: <+jurov> mod6 asciilifeform: the turd http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-December/000186.html << thx for posting this! will review tonight.

23:46:17 assbot: [BTC-dev] Taming the mempool ... ( http://bit.ly/1NvyaEi )

23:49:21 *: mod6 reads scrollback

23:49:50 punkman: the basic idea of segwit is not bad, should have been there from the start, without the "softfork" complexity, no ANYONECANPAY-looking crap, without making another merkle tree, without blocksize discounts and enlargements, without planning to use it as a vehicle for future "painless" shitgnovation

23:50:27 mircea_popescu: so....

23:51:41 mircea_popescu: point remains : as far as bitcoin is concerned, the thing is as irrelevant as the messages blockchain.info keeps "tagging" transactions with. the people who have no business in bitcoin but for whatever emotional/psychogenic reasons are misrepresented or misrepresenting themselves as involved WILL necessarily find a way out. there's just no way to stay attached if you;'re not attached.

23:51:54 mircea_popescu: as far as the faux users were concerned, this was stated as obvious in 2012.

23:52:38 mircea_popescu: as far as the faux developers are concerned, it's rather obvious that even people with just a little ego will nevertheless necesitate the psychological maneuver of working themselves out of it through "projects" rather than just stopping.

23:53:20 mircea_popescu: yes, a sane power ranger would have quit back in 2013, when mpoe-pr published that post on tardstalk.

23:53:52 mircea_popescu: but they're kids, with the life experience, intellectual/emotional maturity and general bandwidth of the average pubescent afghan. so... takes a little longer.

23:58:42 mircea_popescu: anyway, to round off that luke-jr inanity from before : you can't "fork off" the real bitcoin. yeah, you can maybe make it appear (to yourself) that you have a coupla confirms. it costs you more than you have anyway, and nobody looks at hte shit you look at, so it's mostly an exercise in masturbation. expensive, but ultimately pointless.

23:59:06 mircea_popescu: nevertheless, YOU being forked off the real bitcoin can happen quite easily, and is incurable. so you think "you sent bitcoin" ? i don't see it.

23:59:18 mircea_popescu: fuck you, go talk to whoever you wanna talk to about it. unless it shows up in MY chain, it never happened.

23:59:39 mircea_popescu: but hey, they're fiat-based leeches and think in terms of "can i sell this bitcoin"

23:59:59 mircea_popescu: little conception of how the actual bitcoin people see things.