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Transcript for 21-01-2015, 2029 lines:

00:07:17 mod6: this thingy? http://sourceforge.net/projects/lxr/

00:07:18 assbot: LXR Cross Referencer | SourceForge.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1zv6jiU )

00:07:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38300 @ 0.00047409 = 18.1576 BTC [-]

00:14:33 scoopbot: New post on fr.anco.is by davout: http://fr.anco.is/2015/gavineries/

00:16:00 davout: mircea_popescu: "but for the sake of argument, explain to me how exactly is this any less than some derpy cartoonists being shot by some random idiots ?" <<< easier for the media to blame teh arabs than to blame their president i'd say

00:16:29 davout: but if this murder thing is that obvious, zero is indeed very low amount of protest

00:30:14 nubbins`: ^

00:30:20 nubbins`: apathy is the new concern

00:30:37 mod6: davout: thx for posting.

00:32:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31600 @ 0.00047146 = 14.8981 BTC [-]

00:49:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20049 @ 0.00047146 = 9.4523 BTC [-]

00:58:05 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=930649.msg10222936#msg10222936

00:58:06 assbot: Scam Warning: WoodCollector ... ( http://bit.ly/156xEuk )

01:01:49 kakobrekla: >the best guess from our devs is that the bid was filtered out because the highest bid was > lowest ask.

01:01:51 kakobrekla: hehe

01:12:18 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: you around?

01:15:52 mircea_popescu: davout here's the story : big bombing here in the 70s, at the jewish center. dozens of victims.

01:17:04 mircea_popescu: teheran was behind it. first investigation said so. presidency (same fambly since forever) tabled it.

01:17:22 mircea_popescu: they created a "joint comission" with iran. it didn't get anywhere.

01:17:36 mircea_popescu: da finally came out and said, here's how the president is linked to the whole thing.

01:17:38 mircea_popescu: next day, he

01:17:42 mircea_popescu: 's "commited suicide".

01:17:45 felipelalli: I made a mess here with html formatting: http://qntra.net/2015/01/gavin-andresen-on-future-blockchain-security-i-dunno-lol/#comment-7830

01:17:46 assbot: Gavin Andresen On Future Blockchain Security: I Dunno LOL! | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/156Ddsx )

01:17:46 felipelalli: how can I fix that? I can't delete or update it.

01:21:13 mircea_popescu: "Edit: On IRC, Gavin explained he already talked to most (all?) big merchant processors and exchanges, and they were all onboard." derp.

01:22:11 asciilifeform: any reason to doubt that the usg exchanges and other scum are 'on board' (for what that's worth) ?

01:22:27 mircea_popescu: lots of reason to doubt that it's worth anything.

01:22:51 mircea_popescu: but yes, im sure gavin "talked" to everyone handled by the same office.

01:23:01 asciilifeform: the academic question of whether the abortus will die merciful death or live on as circus freak ?

01:23:10 mircea_popescu: this is fine, the us wants to be humiliated on this front too, let it be humiliated on this front too.

01:23:17 mircea_popescu: just as long as it's plainly clear what's what.

01:23:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "ukrainian government" still exists right ?

01:23:50 mircea_popescu: nubbins` http://gfx9.com/angry-lion-graphics-vector-free/163321 lol.

01:23:51 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/156EYGm )

01:23:52 mircea_popescu: win.

01:23:57 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: last i heard, not impaled yet

01:24:34 mircea_popescu: so if they're willing to commit to the same level, they'll get the same result.

01:25:53 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=930649.msg10223137#msg10223137

01:25:54 assbot: Scam Warning: WoodCollector ... ( http://bit.ly/156FBiY )

01:26:47 nubbins`: so much gold

01:26:52 mircea_popescu: "Every step of the way he kept me updated. "

01:27:11 mircea_popescu: you know, the fucking exchanges send like an email on everything now?

01:27:16 nubbins`: "here is some hamster nesting sprinkled on your piece"

01:27:21 nubbins`: "I happen to be a woodworker of 40+ years myself (yes, I really am that old) and I contacted WoodCollecter just a couple days ago to see if he was interested in buying some Ironwood, although I never looked at his work. Now i see this and my mind is completely boggled. I did not read every post here, but I can affirm the opinion of a few I saw that have said that the intricate carving in question is done with a laser. I am 100% sure about

01:27:21 nubbins`: it. NO doubt, case closed."

01:27:22 mircea_popescu: from derpyexchange subject :"mouse movement detected"

01:27:31 nubbins`: "You can clearly see the line by line marks left on this piece that are definitely, without a doubt, with 100% certainty left by a laser engraver exactly the same as a printer does:"

01:27:33 nubbins`: lados

01:28:01 asciilifeform: lol, what happened to scams that were at least plausible.

01:28:20 mircea_popescu: this one is just as plausible. all you need is to be stupid.

01:28:36 asciilifeform: but folks that stupid ought to be buying brooklyn bridge.

01:29:05 asciilifeform: or at least playing straight pyramids.

01:29:06 mircea_popescu: He did the BTC from memory << ok that's pretty good lol

01:32:15 mircea_popescu: nubbins` at this point, expecting a "well of course SOME PARTS were done with a laser but that's not what we were talking about" pivot for the entire "you're a bad person for hurting my feelings and i'm putting together a lynch party" talk

01:32:20 mircea_popescu: !up beautyon

01:34:30 nubbins`: yuss

01:35:58 mats: is concealing the laser job hard?

01:36:05 mircea_popescu: no.

01:36:10 mats: sand the damn thing?

01:36:22 mircea_popescu: a) do not make too tiny cuts that wouldn't have survived mechanically b) clean the fucking piece.

01:36:38 mircea_popescu: this is like an E for effort level attempt.

01:37:31 mircea_popescu: very common problem people have on the internet, the "everyone is as stupid as me / everyone's a goat the same gender and age as me" issue.

01:37:50 asciilifeform: this was some kind of record, no ?

01:38:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57273 @ 0.00047683 = 27.3095 BTC [+] {3}

01:38:29 mircea_popescu: hm ?

01:38:39 asciilifeform: for sheer idiocy of the expected chump

01:39:48 mircea_popescu: hard to tell, this.

01:39:56 mircea_popescu: it's like a diamond, depends which way the light falls.

01:41:29 asciilifeform: speaking of diamonds (specifically of the synthetic variety), one possible observation here - not concerning the idiocy of the wood thing as such - is that anyone demanding a specific 'colour' (as per the 'monolith' essay) - i.e. provenance - of object, is begging to be chumped

01:42:02 asciilifeform: unless there is some unusually reliable record of the past concerning the object

01:42:14 mircea_popescu: "I can and will still prove to you that Nubbins is full of shit and on a smear campaign, i am now just choosing to do so directly with the people who matter, not every tom dick and harry that thinks they know a darn thing about woodworking"

01:42:25 mircea_popescu: he can still prove it to you, but only secretly and if oyu agree.

01:42:34 asciilifeform: like mr. spam!

01:42:39 mircea_popescu: quite.

01:42:49 mircea_popescu: the river shapes the rocks, right ?

01:43:10 asciilifeform: in BingoBoingo's words, the arse shapes the turd.

01:43:16 mircea_popescu: even better.

01:43:51 mircea_popescu: the funny thing (to me) here is, gotany idea how much of this shit floated before there was an internet ?

01:44:02 mircea_popescu: how many idiotic "artisans" filled each corner of england ?

01:44:34 asciilifeform: actually,

01:45:09 asciilifeform: i'm rather fond of old magazines. (mid 20th c. to late '70s, in particular.) the american ones are hilariously rich in sc4mz0r1ng

01:45:18 asciilifeform: of every conceivable variety.

01:45:29 nubbins`: nod

01:45:33 nubbins`: dem back-page ads

01:45:52 nubbins`: you have any idea how many fuckin miracles my folks didn't let me buy?!

01:46:05 asciilifeform: 'improve your memory, guaranteed, with scientology therapy.' ('popular mechanics,' 1958. classified ad.)

01:46:42 asciilifeform: buried in ten thousand 'get rich growing turtles / sorting pigs / ... / ... - guaranteed'

01:52:37 asciilifeform: https://books.google.com/books?id=fdsDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PP1&dq=popular%20mechanics%201958&pg=PA62#v=onepage&q=popular%20mechanics%201958&f=false

01:52:40 assbot: Popular Mechanics - Google Boeken ... ( http://bit.ly/156Nvc7 )

01:52:40 asciilifeform: ^ example

01:53:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i mean it deeper than that. i mean, actual quacks passing for professionals. see, since the internet there's a line being drawn : sure both gavin and wood dude pass to a certain crowd as idiots for the genuine article. but there exists a thinking crowd that sees through it.

01:53:26 mircea_popescu: fifty or five hundred years ago, that wasn't a crowd. it was sole individuals, and the idiots were still a crowd.

01:53:52 mircea_popescu: if gavin were a blacksmith, he probably would have passed for a good one. if this guy were an actual lumberjack, he'd probably have counted for a fine lumberjack.

01:54:12 mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that he'd have a complex story as to how earthworms cause trees to flower

01:54:58 asciilifeform: neh, he'd travel from town to town and proclaim that he'll fell tree with the power of farts

01:54:59 mircea_popescu: old men pretending to be teaching the young'uns "trigonometry" who thought pi = 3.

01:55:02 asciilifeform: for a small fee.

01:55:03 mircea_popescu: nah.

01:55:09 mircea_popescu: there weren't as many of these.

01:55:31 mircea_popescu: genders don't preserve through the eons, they bleed. the french soldier of 1800 wasn't a soldier in 1750. he was a peasant.

01:55:33 asciilifeform: that other kind - that was (and some would say still is!) - medicine.

01:56:02 asciilifeform: anyone who has read medical treatises from as little as two centuries ago, will see a place for gavin et al in that profession

01:56:18 mircea_popescu: yeah i guess medicine is particularly apt.

01:56:34 mircea_popescu: right about at the time they tarred and feathered that asinine idiot who said they should wash hands

01:56:37 mircea_popescu: AS IF THEY WERENT GENTLEMEN

01:56:49 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://www.exclassics.com/arist/ariintro.htm << familiar ?

01:56:50 assbot: Aristotle's Masterpiece -- Introduction ... ( http://bit.ly/156OIAp )

01:57:00 mircea_popescu: the type of plague that destroys the medical community, that guy.

01:57:01 asciilifeform: a real ripper of a time!

01:57:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes

02:00:00 mircea_popescu: "Question: Why would I go to the fucking dumpy ass trailer park called Lake Havasu when I am currently living in Carefree and 10 minutes from Scottsdale?" lol i was waiting for this.

02:00:10 mircea_popescu: i was thinking umm lake havasu wtf.

02:06:02 mircea_popescu: One night, Charles Manners (Lord Lieutenant of Ireland) appeared in the regal box at the theatre on the same night that Peg was attending the show with her girls. Some wags in the gallery began shouting at her ?Oy Peg! Who slept with you last night, Peg?? Peg gave them an imperious look, threw a dramatic glance at the Lord Lieutenant and in a scolding tone, said: ?Manners, you dogs!?

02:09:30 decimation: re: lake havasu < connecting to your medical deal, several people have died swimming in that lake as I recall http://www.havasunews.com/news/new-reports-of-rare-brain-infections-surfacing/article_adadef24-056a-11e3-b7a8-001a4bcf887a.html

02:09:32 assbot: New reports of rare brain infections surfacing - Havasu News: News ... ( http://bit.ly/156SjhE )

02:10:01 mircea_popescu: odd

02:10:05 decimation: it lives in warm freshwater, and finds that human brains are tastey

02:10:59 mats: that's terrifying

02:11:28 mats: thanks for ruining swimming decimation

02:11:42 asciilifeform: !s candiru

02:11:43 assbot: 0 results for 'candiru' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=candiru

02:11:55 asciilifeform: ^ also ruins swimming in certain spots

02:12:15 decimation: sometimes the lake swims in you

02:12:26 undata: warning to neti-pot users: same thing can happen... boil the water

02:15:56 mike_c: ;;later tell BingoBoingo draft submitted

02:15:59 gribble: The operation succeeded.

02:24:31 mircea_popescu: !rated Luke-Jr

02:24:31 assbot: You rated user Luke-Jr on 24-Jul-2014, with a rating of -10, and supplied these additional notes: VERY old history of being untrustworthy. See http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-07-2014#767750 or inquire within.

02:24:44 mircea_popescu: needs something under -10

02:25:08 mircea_popescu: "Downsides of a hardfork are simply that all nodes who do not go along with the upgrade are left without a functioning Bitcoin node, and susceptible to fraud (double spending, etc). This means a mandatory update of every node in the wild, which could require hardware upgrades as well. Miners are not in any special position to decide a hardfork, and are at the mercy of the bitcoin users (mainly merchants and exchanges)

02:25:09 mircea_popescu: as far as hardforking goes." << the downside of a hardfork is that every user that buys into the gavin scam will be left without a bitcoin node.

02:25:17 mircea_popescu: he ~MAY~ receive a gavincoin node in exchange. maybe.

02:25:23 mircea_popescu: perhaps as valuable as an ethereum node, that.

02:27:01 mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 Gavin Scamcoins @750 Bitcoin Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.

02:27:02 gribble: Error: 'Scamcoins' is not a valid price input.

02:27:10 mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 "Gavin Scamcoins" @750 Bitcoin Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.

02:27:10 gribble: Error: '@750' is not a valid price input.

02:27:14 mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 "Gavin Scamcoins" @ 750 Bitcoin Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.

02:27:14 gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be identified via GPG to use the order book.

02:27:20 mircea_popescu: doh.

02:27:32 mircea_popescu: !up Luke-Jr

02:27:36 Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: no, what you describe is an attack disguised as a hardfork

02:27:43 mircea_popescu: exactly what this is.

02:27:44 Luke-Jr: a real hardfork is one where the community is in agreement on it

02:27:55 Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: there isn't anything yet, he hasn't even proposed one

02:27:56 mircea_popescu: there is no "community" agreement. reddit isn;'t the community.

02:28:05 mircea_popescu: and what lies gavin is sprouting to an eager ear... his problem.

02:28:06 Luke-Jr: he's blogged about a possible proposal

02:28:22 mircea_popescu: i will just remind you that you actually believed the bfl scammers, and stained your own beard lieing about THAT delivery.

02:28:25 Luke-Jr: when he proposes it, then people can argue for/against it, and either it will gain consensus or it won't

02:28:32 Luke-Jr: I didn't lie.

02:29:10 mircea_popescu: yeah, you did. you were promised one thing, got another thing, they told you "it's just as good, pretend like you got the original". and you did. becauser you believed them, that delivery's imminent and errything.

02:29:33 Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: what? I said I got what i got.

02:29:36 mircea_popescu: same shit's happening here. gavin is lying, and you're falling for it.

02:29:39 mircea_popescu: mneah.

02:29:51 Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: did you read the discussion earlier in #bitcoin-dev ? nobody is going to just go along with this as it is right now.

02:30:27 mircea_popescu: heh.

02:31:16 Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: Gavin wants to know what has to happen for people to agree to it - he isn't trying to force it through without consensus

02:31:52 mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 "Gavin Scamcoins" @ 750 Bitcoin Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.

02:31:52 gribble: Order id 21920 created.

02:31:52 Luke-Jr: so unless you think dogmatically blocksize must remain 1 MB forever.. tell him what needs to happen to make you comfortable with it

02:32:01 mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 "Gavin Scamcoins" @ 750 BTC Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.

02:32:01 gribble: Order id 21921 created.

02:32:39 mircea_popescu: including the actual bitcoin foundation is the correct move there. mod6 ben_vulpes are in charge.

02:33:21 Luke-Jr: ?

02:34:36 mircea_popescu: http://thebitcoin.foundation/ <

02:34:37 assbot: ..::[ The Bitcoin Foundation ]::.. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ykLRzl )

02:37:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34900 @ 0.00046197 = 16.1228 BTC [-] {2}

02:38:28 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hey is there going to be a party on the log's 1mn th line ?

02:38:29 Luke-Jr: so is this a Bitcoin Core fork?

02:38:35 mircea_popescu: yes.

02:38:55 undata: danielpbarron: damned quick on the twitter draw

02:39:19 danielpbarron: :D

02:40:14 Luke-Jr: is there a place I can see the code? the ML archives linked a github, but it is 404

02:40:31 mircea_popescu: jurov << ppl be complaining they can't see teh code ?

02:41:24 mod6: what's the link?

02:41:34 Luke-Jr: github.com/adlai/bitcoin

02:41:54 asciilifeform: see the code << they haven't a copy of 'tar' ?

02:42:22 mod6: Luke-Jr: not even sure where you found that link..

02:42:25 Luke-Jr: I see no tar, except a build

02:42:35 Luke-Jr: mod6: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2014-November/000011.html

02:42:36 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BCqhcs )

02:45:19 mod6: If you don't want to bother digging through the mailing list for patches, you can just dl the tarballs under "Submitted Patches" on thebitcoin.foundation site

02:45:46 mod6: Although the rm_checkpoints one will probably be tabled before the end of the month.

02:45:52 Luke-Jr: I don't want patches, I want the complete code.

02:46:14 Luke-Jr: what are the patches even against in the first place?

02:46:25 mod6: Well, that's what there is: the v0.5.3 base + patch files.

02:46:28 Apocalyptic: 0.5.3 afaik

02:46:37 decimation: Luke-Jr: how do you discern the trustworthiness of the author?

02:46:45 Luke-Jr: which patch contains the post-0.5.3 hardforks?

02:46:52 Luke-Jr: decimation: why do I care about the author?

02:46:59 decimation: indeed.

02:47:30 mod6: there is not anything post v0.5.3 patched in at this point.

02:47:44 Luke-Jr: so it doesn't even work?

02:47:49 mod6: it does work

02:48:11 Luke-Jr: it can't, if you don't have the 0.8.1 hardfork patched in..

02:49:38 mod6: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=V2PzW2LP

02:49:39 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1573yXv )

02:50:38 kakobrekla: it depend what means 'work' ?

02:50:48 Luke-Jr: mod6: so it's like 3000 blocks behind?

02:51:02 mod6: dude, that was published on the 1st of january.

02:51:25 Luke-Jr: ok, so how are you getting it to work without the hardfork?

02:52:13 decimation: do you have a document describing what exactly changed in this hardfork?

02:52:45 Luke-Jr: the bdb lock limitation was removed

02:54:00 undata: Luke-Jr: inspect db_config.tar.gz maybe

02:54:12 undata: that one diddles the knobs on bdb

02:55:08 Luke-Jr: hmm

02:55:12 Luke-Jr: that *might* work

02:55:36 *: Luke-Jr compares with the 0.5.x backport of the hardfork

02:57:16 Luke-Jr: why not base it on 0.5.7 or 0.5.8rc3 btw?

02:58:42 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/01/robert-faiella-aka-btcking-sentenced-to-four-years-in-prison/

02:58:47 mod6: i cant believe im going to do this

02:58:51 mod6: !up Luke-Jr

02:59:30 mod6: it was selected because "reasons"

02:59:39 Luke-Jr: I think the db_config patch may explain why it works, but could be potentially inadequate for the current consensus rules

02:59:58 Luke-Jr: looks like Gavin's recommendations, which were lame

03:00:22 mod6: which are those?

03:00:46 Luke-Jr: dunno, it's lost in history now

03:01:17 Luke-Jr: the 0.5.x backport just changed set_lk_max_locks to 537000

03:01:32 Luke-Jr: not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max..

03:02:03 felipelalli: MPEx are going to negotiate Gavin Coins?

03:03:14 nubbins`: <+Luke-Jr> why not base it on 0.5.7 or 0.5.8rc3 btw? <<< i said 0.6.1...

03:03:25 nubbins`: it was decided that 0.5.3 was the earliest that'd still work.

03:03:56 nubbins`: or rather, that 0.5.3 was the point at which no further breaking changes were implemented

03:04:23 Luke-Jr: nubbins`: 0.4.9rc3 should work I think

03:04:30 Luke-Jr: I maintained that up until Sep 2013

03:04:39 decimation: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/db.cpp#L89

03:04:41 assbot: bitcoin/db.cpp at master · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1576QtO )

03:04:46 Luke-Jr: including through the 0.8.1 hardfork

03:05:09 Luke-Jr: decimation: Bitcoin Core does not use bdb for the blockchain

03:05:16 Luke-Jr: since 0.8.0

03:05:36 Luke-Jr: ie, those limits are for the wallet

03:07:24 Luke-Jr: https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable/commit/4a89522c22e07a640463292b212ecdf31037a8c4 is the 0.4.x commit for the hardfork

03:07:25 assbot: Bugfix: Bump lk_max_locks default to 537000, to safely handle reorgs ... - Gitorious ... ( http://bit.ly/1577ozQ )

03:08:03 Luke-Jr: https://gitorious.org/bitcoin/bitcoind-stable/commit/b4e9cd8e8ab310bf341103bac1e9640e27cc7488 is also informative in that respect

03:08:05 assbot: Check effective maximum bdb locks (possibly overridden in DB_CONFIG),... - Gitorious ... ( http://bit.ly/1577zv1 )

03:08:14 *: mod6 looks

03:11:31 nubbins`: tracking down vintage 0.5.3 and applying .foundation patches = fun times

03:12:08 nubbins`: start with chicken.tar.gz and go from there

03:12:19 mod6: i've got a script now...

03:12:38 mod6: but i'll publish it to the list with some refinements before the end of the month

03:12:39 nubbins`: it's all in easily-digestible chunks, no sweat to eyeball each patch & fully understand what's going on

03:12:41 *: mod6 finds

03:12:42 Luke-Jr: "tracking down" as if it's disappeared

03:12:53 nubbins`: did YOU save the MD5 sums? 8)

03:13:07 Luke-Jr: nubbins`: my git client did

03:13:14 Luke-Jr: also, MD5 is not safe for this

03:13:28 nubbins`: and so disappearing is not precisely the concern :D

03:13:33 mod6: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=U75B7820

03:13:34 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1zvrJwi )

03:13:55 mod6: just need to change ``HOME'' to where you wanna build

03:14:01 Luke-Jr: do you guys dislike git or something? O.o

03:14:37 Luke-Jr: git basically uses a "blockchain" and makes it very hard to rewrite history

03:16:26 mod6: we wanted unified diffs we could sign

03:18:27 Luke-Jr: mod6: git supports signing commits

03:18:40 Luke-Jr: although I suppose that doesn't help if you want multiple people to sign them

03:19:09 mod6: yeah, there was a whole discussion surrounding this entire process. it's in the logs.

03:19:55 Luke-Jr: oh well, I guess it's managable if you don't plan to do much maintenance to it

03:19:58 decimation: Luke-Jr: the idea is that signed patches would be read by people, who would then sign

03:21:55 Luke-Jr: yeah, it's definitely a shortcoming of git

03:22:28 Luke-Jr: anyhow, if the goal is oldest version, I'd recommend going off 0.4.x; either way, I'd recommend fixing the bdb hardfork

03:23:00 Luke-Jr: and I hope Gavin doesn't plan to just ignore DarkWallet and your fork - though I wouldn't be surprised if he did to be honest

03:23:39 Luke-Jr: might help if the devs here participated in the discussions in #bitcoin-dev when it came up.. maybe

03:24:11 decimation: I'm not sure folks here are interested in 'maintaining' as much as understanding and recreating

03:24:12 asciilifeform: Luke-Jr: you're still thinking in terms of persuasion. we don't need to persuade the usg stooge of anything.

03:25:03 Luke-Jr: asciilifeform: I agree Gavin should persuade you - but he will probably ignore you if you're not there discussing it

03:25:29 Luke-Jr: (persuade you, as opposed to you persuading him to stop)

03:26:10 Luke-Jr: (ugh, I'm being unclear: I mean the onus is on him to convince you, and you shouldn't have to convince him)

03:27:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88901 @ 0.00046346 = 41.2021 BTC [+] {2}

03:27:55 mircea_popescu: !up Blazedout419

03:28:24 decimation: why would we care what some guy (like gavin) commits into some random github repo?

03:28:29 mircea_popescu: Blazedout419 hey, my question to you is, did you actually pay 14k for that guy's wooden thing, as represented ? or was it more like a sweetheart sort of deal for advertising sake, like the sillycon valley does ?

03:28:38 mircea_popescu: i dunno any better, so ima take your word for it.

03:29:03 Luke-Jr: decimation: it's not "some random github repo", it's the code that most nodes *will* be running unless someone objects

03:29:14 mircea_popescu: !up Luke-Jr

03:29:15 Luke-Jr: decimation: also, Gavin is no longer the final word for any git repo

03:29:26 mircea_popescu: when did that happen ?

03:29:32 Luke-Jr: a few months ago IIRC

03:29:34 mircea_popescu: nubbins` darling how did YOU get sexist ?

03:34:44 mircea_popescu: Luke-Jr anyway, inasmuch as everyone actually wants bitcoin to prevail, divergence of opinion isn't much of a problem. however, the conservative rather than the progressive approach must be observed. change doesn't happen just for the sake of changing things. this isn't a fad or an ipad gizmo. if consensus can't be reached for whatever reason, whoever doesn't like it leaves and starts over, rather than pretending the o

03:34:44 mircea_popescu: pposite.

03:36:35 Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: I'm definitely in favour of taking a conservative approach, and I'm pretty sure most of the Bitcoin Core team is as well. I think Gavin was probably frustrated earlier when it came up in #bitcoin-dev because nobody could give him a straightforward "way to convince everyone"

03:37:11 mircea_popescu: sometimes we don't get what we want. that doesn't mean our wants now have a wild card and nothing else matters anymore. this isn't school.

03:37:45 mircea_popescu: what's next, start assaulting women because "nobody told me how to seduce any woman" ?

03:38:02 mircea_popescu: seems a little too geeky.

03:38:10 Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: If Gavin wanted to force the hardfork, he wouldn't be frustrated at his inability to convince people ;)

03:39:30 mircea_popescu: im not going to carry that argument.

03:45:16 mircea_popescu: !up Trollmeister

03:45:18 mircea_popescu: !up elgrecoFL

03:47:37 Luke-Jr: anyhow, I don't think Gavin knows people here have concerns. I'd suggest doing a writeup of what those concerns are, and what Gavin needs to do if he wants your approval for a hardfork. I know you shouldn't *have to*, but otherwise I don't see any way this is likely to come to a resolution.

03:48:58 mircea_popescu: people here don't "have concerns". people here are going to skin the fork as proposed so far, no argument there. gavin can start reading or press ahead, either way.

03:49:00 Luke-Jr: especially if Gavin has the big merchants and exchanges onboard - if they follow his lead on this, everyone who wants to buy stuff with Bitcoin is likely to follow along too, for better or worse

03:49:11 mircea_popescu: the one large merchant left in bitcoin so far is mpex.

03:49:11 Luke-Jr: "skin the fork"?

03:49:21 mircea_popescu: but if you absolutely must see bitpay die before you wake up, it can be arranged.

03:49:33 Luke-Jr: please. how many people actually even use MPEX?

03:49:33 mircea_popescu: coinbase made the round, which i guess gains it a little space. NOT that much.

03:49:46 mircea_popescu: enough to make me 600 btc in the month bitpay made a loss.

03:50:00 Luke-Jr: that could be a single person with a lot of volume

03:50:17 Luke-Jr: head counts matter more than volume sometimes

03:50:17 mircea_popescu: point being, mpex is, currently, > 50% of "bitcoin business". like it or not, it's a fact.

03:50:24 mircea_popescu: not in money, no.

03:50:36 mircea_popescu: but if headcount feels the need to learn this through headcollisions with hard objects, it may.

03:51:48 Luke-Jr: I find it very hard to believe MPEX is even 1% of bitcoin business

03:52:03 mircea_popescu: right.

03:52:46 mircea_popescu: it's so far 100% of the bitcoin "told the usg to get fucked" party. once you digest that you might be in a better position to evaluate who matters and who doesn't,

03:52:54 mircea_popescu: than if going by conference headcounds or w/e.

03:53:54 Luke-Jr: look, I respect your right to be free of US interference since you're outside the US, but governmental politics has basically nothing to do with hardforks

03:54:22 mircea_popescu: globalisation just turned off hm ?

03:54:31 Luke-Jr: ?

03:55:18 Luke-Jr: I can't imagine how the block size is at all related to governments, or why a government would aim to change it.

03:55:23 mircea_popescu: you don't get a private island just because you want one. things have to do with each other, it's the way of the world.

03:55:30 mircea_popescu: listen, arguing to ignorance is really bad engineering.

03:55:41 mircea_popescu: i don't know why a whale would want to be 20 tons. so what of it.

03:55:54 Luke-Jr: you think the block size issue is USG-inspired? what do they have to gain from it?

03:56:29 mircea_popescu: this is too lengthy a discussion. bitcoin is perceived as a threat by pretty much every central bank, you know that much.

03:57:14 Luke-Jr: sure - how does that cross over into the block size matter?

03:58:41 mircea_popescu: there's many intertwined issues there. the outermost layer is, to establish whether an english speaking cia visitor is even in a position to push through a hardfork.

03:59:09 Luke-Jr: by himself? then it's a simple "no" I hope

03:59:27 Luke-Jr: any hardfork needs at least a supermajority of bitcoin users

04:00:06 mircea_popescu: his rethoric was different a coupla months ago, and as far as anyone can tell hasn't actually caught up with your representation thereof.

04:00:22 mircea_popescu: but i guess this is coming

04:03:46 decimation: it seems to me that the enemies of bitcoin would love to think that they could 'update' the protocol as they desire

04:03:50 decimation: like the ietf & http

04:05:33 mircea_popescu: Luke-Jr: although I suppose that doesn't help if you want multiple people to sign them << the idea isn't to sign commits, but to sign reads. << see http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-09-2014#824250 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-10-2014#888473 it's an older point this, about software accountability.

04:05:33 assbot: Logged on 10-09-2014 11:54:21; mircea_popescu: other than proper cryptography for all foss, as discussed coupla days re gentoo overlays etc, i would fucking love for all lines of code to come with a counter.

04:05:33 assbot: Logged on 22-10-2014 18:53:07; mircea_popescu: it's one thing to trust this rnd function because asciilifeform and 25 others signed on reading it.

04:06:19 mircea_popescu: decimation for sure, making it plain that bitcoin isn't a sort of http / pki / dns / ietf / whatever captive protocol in the courtyard of some us dependent or another is quite valuable. first and foremost for bitcoin.

04:06:23 mircea_popescu: then for everyone using it.

04:11:16 mircea_popescu: !up Father_MAXI

04:12:53 ben_vulpes: tango is harrrrd

04:13:16 mircea_popescu: only if you're dancing it.

04:13:47 mircea_popescu: "Likewise, in the worst case if Bitcoin did overshoot to become centralized alt-coins and the market would again solve the problem."

04:14:00 mircea_popescu: reading reddit is like drinking old cheese.

04:14:10 mircea_popescu: and this is summaries.

04:14:26 ben_vulpes: anyone getting spammed with CTCP messages from a mramberg?

04:15:53 mircea_popescu: you can just drop ctcp you know.

04:16:24 ben_vulpes: i guess i do now

04:16:50 mircea_popescu: i am kinda shocked nobody is wanting to buy gavincoins from me for a fucking steep discount, incidentally.

04:17:21 mircea_popescu: this is like ether all over again. "oh we have tons of support!!1" "how come nobody is trading ?" "it';s mystical support. woodcollector knows all about it. we'll send you a private video." etc.

04:17:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00045657 = 9.9989 BTC [-] {2}

04:21:39 mircea_popescu: !s pierre_rochard

04:21:40 assbot: 331 results for 'pierre_rochard' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pierre_rochard

04:22:09 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell pierre_rochard errything fine up there ?

04:22:09 gribble: The operation succeeded.

04:22:57 mircea_popescu: this is a pretty lulzy snippet :

04:23:00 mircea_popescu: "tldr: economically speaking, core dev team should not worry about increasing the block size limit until at the very least we see average transaction fees consistently above the 0.0001 btc 'minimum'. At that point we can revisit this debate. There are other questions about feasibility and politics that I'll leave out."

04:23:27 decimation: re: woodcollector scam << the one I see in random us fishwrappers is 'fuel saving magnets' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_saving_device#Magnets

04:23:29 assbot: Fuel saving device - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1Epdb0n )

04:23:29 mircea_popescu: reddit : "You're only looking at the technical side of it. Leaving the 1 MB block size issue for later is risky due to political/social reasons. Every hard fork brings with it uncertainty and risks because it requires wide consensus to be carried out smoothly. As long as these risks hang over the Bitcoin economy, many companies will be hesitant to make long-term commitments to the Bitcoin economy. Afterall, a hard fork

04:23:29 mircea_popescu: could lead to Bitcoin community splitting into two networks, or a hard fork could end up not happening due to community infighting. Both of these would be disastrous for the Bitcoin economy.

04:23:29 mircea_popescu: The 1 MB block size limit needs to removed as soon as possible, and replaced with something that scales automatically, rather than through risky hard forks that require political consensus. It's 2015, Microsoft, one of the largest companies in the world, accepts Bitcoin, and the Bitcoin network can only handle 3 transactions per second, unless there is a hard fork. Getting rid of the 1 MB block size limit is long overd

04:23:32 mircea_popescu: ue.

04:23:36 mircea_popescu: With the limit in place, Bitcoin runs the risk of stagnating. When the limit is lifted, I predict we will see mass adoption."

04:24:00 mircea_popescu: because a) we deeply care about the "i predicts" of propaganda agents ; b) "hurry up guise, if we don't do it while nobody's looking we won't be able to do it at all"

04:24:02 decimation: lol yeah joe sixpack is not using bitcoin because of the block size limit

04:24:41 mircea_popescu: what sort of rotten oats would an ass have to eat to imagine that something that couldn't be done later should be done now. it's the screaming declaration of "we don't represent anyone but wish to rule everyone"

04:25:12 mircea_popescu: decimation the craftyness of it, tho. who is presented as the golden standard ? microsoft. because why ?

04:25:16 mircea_popescu: because obviously.

04:26:01 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/the-battlefield-of-the-future/ << this makes exquisite companion reading.

04:26:02 assbot: The battlefield of the future pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1EpdAzY )

04:27:55 decimation: the Legislative Assembly was more than happy to recognize Georges Danton as their leader after he marched in front of the 20,000 strong mob

04:28:06 mircea_popescu: glwt.

04:28:23 mircea_popescu: reddit mob is not worth the pixels it's printed on.

04:30:17 decimation: well, one lesson is that Danton had an organization. it is odd that the supposed right-wing supporters of heirarchy are usually out-flanked by their enemies on their left when it comes to organizing the little people

04:33:24 mircea_popescu: decimation i don't really see it the same way. when nanotube was disappeared earlier this month, gribble got replaced within something like a week. seems to me the organisation's fine.

04:33:52 mircea_popescu: of course, the right doesn't generally create unruly mobs of idiots that spout nonsense. this, principally, because the right is not comfortable for idiots.

04:34:14 mircea_popescu: how's this a problem anyway ? pre-bitcoin, pre-gpg, etc, i can see it. today ? who gives a shit ?

04:35:13 mircea_popescu: similarly one could observe that the soviet union had very impressive victory day parades. sure. this, principally, because the soviet citizen had little better to do, either productively, for leisure or for his own safety.

04:35:56 mircea_popescu: i'm not about to regret that reagan didn't make more us workers go to party indoctrination class.

04:37:23 decimation: yeah that's a good point, the heirarchy is too busy running actual business - it doesn't have time to prance around and promise the moon to the sans-culottes

04:38:34 mircea_popescu: everyone i know that's not dumb is busy doing shit. the people "discussing" on reddit are an entirely different brand. if tomorrow they were replaced with a frog infested pond, what'd happen ?

04:38:42 mircea_popescu: would you even notice that same day ? that week ? ever ?

04:39:18 asciilifeform: pond <<< brekekekex koax koax.

04:39:21 mircea_popescu: "Do you have any anecdotal examples of crypto users on the side lines saying things like,

04:39:21 mircea_popescu: Yes, I personally have lost enthusiasm for recruiting merchants, because I don't know what will happen once 1 MB block size limit is reached, "

04:39:47 mircea_popescu: dude "lost enthusiasm". for what ? for "recruiting merchants". meanwhile... http://fraudsters.com/2014/bitcoin-in-argentina-exactly-nothing-to-do-with-the-derps/

04:39:47 assbot: Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yp9fMi )

04:40:11 mircea_popescu: i suppose bitpay "embassy" is still deserted because whatever, people were insecure about what may happen if the bitpie in the sky is smaller than perceived.

04:42:05 mircea_popescu: Luke-Jr Name a single Bitcoin expert who thinks 1 MB blocks will be sufficient forever? << 1mb blocks MAY be sufficient forever.

04:42:22 mircea_popescu: the onus to show that they DEFINITELY WILL NOT BE is on you lot of "bitcoin experts"

04:43:16 decimation: asciilifeform: maryland has a surplus of frogs & toads

04:44:04 mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust mircea_popescu luceo

04:44:05 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user luceo: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 5 via 10 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=luceo | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=luceo | Rated since: Tue Jun 12 14:09:09 2012

04:44:43 asciilifeform: decimation: wash., d.c. area specifically. swamp.

04:45:14 mircea_popescu: this idiocy with "Assurance contracts" takes the cake.

04:45:17 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2015#973605

04:45:17 assbot: Logged on 11-01-2015 22:42:34; decimation: at any rate, this is a problem for actual miners to solve in the future, and they will likely despise any actions taken today on their behalf

04:45:56 mircea_popescu: "hey listen, we have a perfect system that works in proved practice to reward miners. let's replace it with some libertard idiocy that a) provedly never worked in practice and b) for well understood theoretical reasons that we don't like so they don't really exist"

04:46:26 mircea_popescu: assurance contracts. srsly. what's next, replace wallets with obamacare website ?

04:46:44 mircea_popescu: will totally work. unless you know, for a few months when launched. and well... if you make a wallet that's not your walletr.

04:47:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00047253 = 14.1759 BTC [+]

04:48:19 decimation: 10,000 unborn souls vote for hardfork

04:48:52 mircea_popescu: heh

04:50:37 mircea_popescu: if i wasn't so disinterested i'd have someone mine reddit to get a relative comparison of votes/words wasted on gavin's coin vs neobee

04:50:54 mircea_popescu: the same sort of rabid idiocy seems to be wafting from both of them. half curious if the same "pr" company hired for both.

04:53:51 undata: and libertarians claim to be goldbugs...

04:54:10 undata: yet they want bitcoin to be the mastercard network

04:54:25 asciilifeform: 'they' 'want'

04:54:35 mircea_popescu: quite. no they, and nothing's being particularly wanted.

04:54:38 undata: this guy, horde of upvoting minions, whoever

04:57:15 *: undata is merely wondering why anyone would think "supah fast transactions" and not "immutable unit of value for all time" is the thing

04:57:54 mircea_popescu: because that anyone has no money.

04:58:03 mod6: yeah, they're spenders, not savers.

04:58:48 asciilifeform: this seems more like a question of who folks imagine themselves as, rather than what they are

04:59:30 asciilifeform: i would dare to suggest that plenty of folks who haven't anything to save, for instance, like the proper bitcoin quite a bit

04:59:59 asciilifeform: but others, with enormous incomes (denominated in, e.g., usd) - hate.

05:00:21 mircea_popescu: good point.

05:01:08 mircea_popescu: " phantomcircuit Diablo-D3, the real danger here is convincing people who dont truly understand the problem that something is safe which is in fact extremely risky"

05:01:16 *: asciilifeform is not a rich fellow, and was much poorer still when he read the satoshi paper

05:01:17 mircea_popescu: basically, gavin has pretty much 0 support in -dev.

05:01:26 mircea_popescu: but he's willing to buy people drinks in san juan, who knows, maybe then.

05:02:39 asciilifeform: speaking of satoshi's paper, i learned by accident that someone sells a printed & bound 'collected satoshi crap'

05:02:49 asciilifeform: not incl. the 0.1 source, unfortunately

05:04:09 mircea_popescu: i don't think the 0.1 source was ever actually released

05:04:32 *: asciilifeform distinctly recalls a tarball with that label

05:05:25 asciilifeform: http://www.bitcointrading.com/forum/bitcoin-clients/original-bitcoin-source-code-archives

05:05:27 assbot: Original Bitcoin Source Code Archives - bitcointrading.com - bitcoin trading buy/sell classifieds forum ... ( http://bit.ly/1JbFlwM )

05:05:28 asciilifeform: ^ seems to have it

05:06:22 mircea_popescu: uh

05:06:34 asciilifeform: i once worked with a fellow who had a poster containing, in reasonably readable print, linux 0.01 kernel.

05:06:38 mircea_popescu: you know, that's the guy that came up with a glbse asset that consisted of buying lottery tickets ?

05:06:56 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for all i know, it's hitler.

05:06:56 mircea_popescu: but anyway, i rly dun recall, mebbe it was after all.

05:07:00 mod6: lol

05:07:12 mircea_popescu: i had thought it started with 2.something

05:07:22 asciilifeform: 0.1.3 seems to be the earliest mass-circulated version.

05:07:53 asciilifeform: https://github.com/trottier/original-bitcoin/tree/master/src << claims to be a copy

05:07:54 assbot: original-bitcoin/src at master · trottier/original-bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JbFU9S )

05:08:04 mircea_popescu: ah ok 1.3

05:08:34 asciilifeform: incidentally, it would be very spiffy if someone here (specifically) has a vintage copy of either of these on his disk, from those days, and would be willing to sign it.

05:09:14 asciilifeform: lottery hitler probably has not the brain mass to doctor his archive, but why leave it to fate.

05:09:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, re go : you know the only other bitcoin implementation is btcd, written in go ?

05:09:29 mod6: asciilifeform: werd

05:09:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there was another, iirc, in c

05:09:48 mircea_popescu: i thought that one died.

05:09:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have not tested it

05:10:24 asciilifeform: there is also something that looked, on cursory inspection, quite like a bitcoind, in python

05:10:38 asciilifeform: haven't tried it either.

05:10:40 mircea_popescu: that died a year prior to the cx

05:11:30 asciilifeform: there is even, apparently, a haskell version.

05:11:38 asciilifeform: (haven't tried, ...)

05:11:51 asciilifeform: https://github.com/haskoin/haskoin

05:11:52 assbot: haskoin/haskoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1E0BLr1 )

05:11:59 mod6: bitcoin in C is sexy

05:13:06 asciilifeform: now, whether even one of these (or ones not mentioned here) is fit for use in anger, on the battlefield - i cannot say.

05:24:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62200 @ 0.00045216 = 28.1244 BTC [-] {2}

05:25:13 Pierre_Rochard: “errything fine up there ?” <- debatable, I’ve been studying tax accounting, which can be deleterious to the mind

05:26:53 mircea_popescu: o there he is.

05:26:58 Pierre_Rochard: The point I was trying to make is that Gavinonomics has no notion of demand elasticity for bitcoin transactions

05:27:01 mircea_popescu: how's the "talking sense at redditards" business going ?

05:27:24 Pierre_Rochard: horribly, it’s a particularly terrible form of procrastination

05:27:31 mircea_popescu: it doesn't seem to have much notion of economics in any sense.

05:27:35 mircea_popescu: hehe i hear that a lot.

05:51:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44800 @ 0.00047758 = 21.3956 BTC [+] {2}

05:52:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5050 @ 0.00048855 = 2.4672 BTC [+]

05:52:54 mircea_popescu: ;;seen bitstein

05:52:54 gribble: bitstein was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 5 days, 8 hours, 59 minutes, and 15 seconds ago: <bitstein> https://twitter.com/a_greenberg/status/555827037488037889

05:52:58 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> davout here's the story : big bombing here in the 70s, at the jewish center. dozens of victims. << was this a proxy attack on israel?

05:53:13 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes for all i know it was just overflowing idiocy.

05:53:32 ben_vulpes: it being the jewish center?

05:53:44 ben_vulpes: the bombing?

05:54:51 mircea_popescu: well both.

05:55:03 mircea_popescu: there's no discernible benefit to it or anything.

05:56:42 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> any reason to doubt that the usg exchanges and other scum are 'on board' (for what that's worth) ? << it is going to be *fascinating* to see how coinbase et. al are going to handle this

05:57:48 mircea_popescu: coinbase made its round, so it may have a little leeway.

06:04:04 mircea_popescu: !up coderwill

06:09:10 ben_vulpes: http://bitbet.us/bet/1093/bitcoin-main-net-block-size-to-increase-in/ << could such a block get 50 confirmations and a reorg happen later? that's not even 10 hours, right?

06:09:11 assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 0.13 B (11%) on Yes, 1.07 B (89%) on No | closing in 9 months 4 weeks | weight: 94`308 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1sXn2t1 )

06:10:33 ben_vulpes: sure enough, brief discussion in teh lawgs

06:11:14 ben_vulpes: then off into a discussion about bitbet mathematical/statistical arcana

06:11:19 ben_vulpes: god i love you guys

06:11:46 mircea_popescu: did i miss teh log ?!

06:11:59 ben_vulpes: lol did you miss it

06:12:19 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-01-2015#970329 << you fucking wrote it

06:12:19 assbot: Logged on 08-01-2015 22:31:37; mircea_popescu: "Gavincoin orphan chain to reach 50 blocks before being abandoned" is kinda not the same as "Blockchain will increase"

06:12:33 mircea_popescu: that's ... two weeks ago ?

06:12:52 ben_vulpes: memory loss setting in already?

06:13:37 mircea_popescu: no but i was expecting today's log.

06:13:49 mircea_popescu: i thought you were up to date!!1

06:13:51 ben_vulpes: anyways

06:13:56 mircea_popescu: anyway, read today first, get back to 8th after.

06:13:56 ben_vulpes: no no i went searching for that

06:14:00 mircea_popescu: oh oh

06:14:17 ben_vulpes: i'm just sitting here imagining the ways gavincoin could play out

06:14:18 mircea_popescu: dude im tired.

06:14:18 ben_vulpes: reading logs

06:14:22 ben_vulpes: 500 behind

06:14:24 ben_vulpes: you're tired?

06:14:26 mircea_popescu: yeah now i see what you mean :)

06:14:32 mircea_popescu: took me a while.

06:17:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.000465 = 5.6265 BTC [-]

06:21:29 ben_vulpes: <Luke-Jr> [] not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max.. << lol i love the stream of consciousness as Luke-Jr reads through source

06:25:51 mircea_popescu: https://blog.conformal.com/the-bitcoin-consensus-red-herring/

06:25:53 assbot: The Bitcoin Consensus Red Herring | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J6yNkL )

06:25:56 mircea_popescu: guy actually has a point.

06:26:01 mircea_popescu: "There is currently no way to guarantee that any two versions of Bitcoin software, whether they are two different versions of Bitcoin Core, two different versions of alternative implementations, a version of Bitcoin Core versus a version of an alternative implementation, or even two copies of the same version of Bitcoin Core built with different compiler versions are in exact consensus agreement. Doing so is incredibly

06:26:01 mircea_popescu: difficult and borders on impossible. The issue is implementation independent."

06:26:33 mircea_popescu: "The current solution as proposed by Bitcoin Core is, when you get right down to it, ?let?s just be really careful with code changes and hope for the best?. There is no real disaster recovery or prevention plan. Yes, there is ongoing work to split the consensus critical bits out into a library and I think this is a good idea and am glad to see it happening. However, it still does nothing to address the real fun

06:26:33 mircea_popescu: damental issue stated above nor does it provide disaster recovery or prevention."

06:26:40 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, gavin's top priority is... you've guessed it.

06:26:55 mircea_popescu: every single version to date broke something.

06:27:24 mircea_popescu: usually not that big. sometimes fucking ridiculous (like the one time when they changed versioning)

06:28:09 mircea_popescu: and yet the "uncertaininty" is generated by imaginary problems. not by this.

06:29:01 mircea_popescu: sort-of like the man who gets drenched in volcanic eruptions every single week, worrying about meteors falling.

06:29:22 ben_vulpes: changed versioning?

06:30:21 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes recall when blocks went from v1 to v2 ?

06:30:37 ben_vulpes: i don't know if i was around at that point.

06:30:55 ben_vulpes: wasn't even keeping logs at that point

06:31:04 mircea_popescu: sometime in 2012 an uncontroversial fork was put in, so that sometime in 2013 blocks are mined with version 2 instead of version 1.

06:31:36 ben_vulpes: lol so then fork?

06:31:37 mircea_popescu: except for no particular reason the check was against a signed value (the very careful part), which inadvertently reduced a scarce resource

06:31:44 mircea_popescu: no, just narrower header.

06:32:21 ben_vulpes: huh

06:32:37 ben_vulpes: got a writeup somewhere? i don't understand the implications straight off.

06:38:11 mircea_popescu: https://blog.conformal.com/the-bitcoin-consensus-red-herring/#comment-689

06:38:12 assbot: The Bitcoin Consensus Red Herring | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J6Az5x )

06:38:17 mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known.

06:39:26 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes good start : http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/01/20#l1421788665

06:39:27 assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1J6ALlh )

06:47:07 ben_vulpes: :(

06:47:09 ben_vulpes: that is a lot of log

06:47:13 ben_vulpes: and i want to nap

06:48:53 mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/adam3us << guy that thinks he invented bitcoin

06:48:55 assbot: Adam Back (@adam3us) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1J6C5V6 )

06:49:02 mircea_popescu: wholla lotta dumb in his funny looking head otherwise.

07:12:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50000 @ 0.00048078 = 24.039 BTC [+]

07:43:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00048078 = 9.5194 BTC [+]

07:44:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46850 @ 0.000465 = 21.7853 BTC [-]

07:50:26 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 22 @ 0.11000003 = 2.42 BTC [-] {4}

08:35:52 mats: https://jimshaver.net/2015/01/21/the-100-chain-certificate-experiment/

08:35:53 assbot: The 100 Chain Certificate Experiment | Jim Shaver ... ( http://bit.ly/1ypN20u )

08:36:38 mats: dos via cert chain replacement

08:46:44 mats: http://www.computerworld.com/article/2872694/oracle-to-fix-167-vulnerabilities-including-a-backdoor-like-flaw-in-its-e-business-suite.html

08:46:45 assbot: Oracle to fix 167 vulnerabilities, including a backdoor-like flaw in its E-Business Suite | Computerworld ... ( http://bit.ly/1ypOQXq )

08:54:27 BingoBoingo: ;;later tell mike_c published

08:54:28 gribble: The operation succeeded.

09:13:35 BingoBoingo: O.o a suprising voice objects to 20MB trending towards infinity http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/01/20#l1421788455

09:13:36 assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1ypTJQd )

09:14:43 BingoBoingo: Stronger objection http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/01/20#l1421788665

09:14:44 assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1ypTXaa )

09:20:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62800 @ 0.00045832 = 28.7825 BTC [-] {2}

09:33:46 punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis made it look like they were the ones giving childbed fever to the women. And Semmelweis was not very tactful. He publicly berated people who disagreed with him and made some influential enemies. Eventually the doctors gave up the chlorine hand-washing, and Semmelweis — he lost his job. Semmelweis kept trying to convince doctors in other parts of Europe to wash with chlorine,

09:35:32 BingoBoingo: !b 1

09:35:33 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3W067P8.txt )

09:39:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23550 @ 0.00048537 = 11.4305 BTC [+]

09:39:13 punkman: (more here http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2015/01/12/375663920/the-doctor-who-championed-hand-washing-and-saved-women-s-lives )

09:39:14 assbot: The Doctor Who Championed Hand-Washing And Briefly Saved Lives : Shots - Health News : NPR ... ( http://bit.ly/1ypYjOD )

09:40:48 punkman: "1700 private jets expected to Davos in Switzerland to discuss climate change at World Economic Forum"

09:45:33 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

09:45:52 Vexual: 1700 private jets, fucking hell, the hipocracy

09:46:41 Vexual: id fly em all economy to somewhere and put em on a dying freighter

09:46:57 Vexual: way cheaper

09:47:56 Vexual: wait, autopilot to switzerland?

09:48:42 punkman: irc would've been cheaper for sure

09:49:07 Vexual: hell yeah

09:50:55 punkman: although good opportunity to pull the 500eur stacks out of the swiss deposit box

09:53:04 Vexual: hey, you can spend a bin laden on the train

09:56:36 punkman: http://www.wired.com/2015/01/magic-leaps-vision-for-virtual-reality/

09:56:37 assbot: Revealed at Last: Magic Leap's Vision for Augmented Reality, in 32 Patent Illustrations | WIRED ... ( http://bit.ly/1yq1jun )

10:00:08 punkman: https://www.spaceglasses.com/

10:00:09 assbot: Home: Meta Augmented Reality ... ( http://bit.ly/1yq1WE8 )

10:00:43 punkman: can these people think of a single non-retarded use case?

10:01:04 punkman: "Meta makes you a real-life Tony Stark." - CNN

10:01:09 Vexual: wtf is a totem?

10:02:14 Vexual: sounds racist

10:03:00 Vexual: ;;google magic leap totem racist

10:03:01 gribble: Review: Wonderfalls: “Totem Mole” · TV Club · The A.V. Club: http://www.avclub.com/tvclub/wonderfalls-totem-mole-101590; Lovecraft Apologists and the World Fantasy Award - Jim C. Hines: http://www.jimchines.com/2014/10/lovecraft-apologists-and-the-world-fantasy-award/; Stuff Black People Don't Like - SBPDL: White Men Can Run: (1 more message)

10:05:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68125 @ 0.00049059 = 33.4214 BTC [+] {4}

10:09:02 Vexual: meanwhile google is full aware the patent selss to city planners until its nearly up, then it goes into happy meals

10:12:07 Vexual: but as non retarded uses go, playing ar doom in the office sounds pretty good

10:14:57 punkman: they are already working on teh ads http://www.armarketing.org/armarketing-conference/

10:14:59 assbot: AR Marketing Conference 2015 | AR Marketing ... ( http://bit.ly/1xVRWh5 )

10:15:55 punkman: !up Vexual

10:18:14 punkman: I wouldn't mind more AR/history/exhibition things like http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/when-science-fiction-becomes-reality-rebuilding-the-berlin-wall-with-augmented-reality-a-704970.html

10:18:15 assbot: When Science Fiction Becomes Reality: Rebuilding the Berlin Wall with Augmented Reality - SPIEGEL ONLINE ... ( http://bit.ly/1xVSLpU )

10:20:30 Vexual: is this why glass gied? noones got a set, so noone makes anthing?

10:20:55 Vexual: berlin things pretty neato

10:21:11 punkman: the glass tech wasn't that good imo

10:21:20 Vexual: did you try it?

10:21:33 punkman: no

10:23:58 Vexual: was the guts in the glasses?

10:24:34 punkman: yeah but you needed an android to go with it

10:24:40 Vexual: fucked optics and 10 people had one

10:25:15 punkman: I wanna try the spaceglasses though

10:25:26 Vexual: how does it work?

10:25:58 punkman: they have Steve Mann on the team, if anyone knows how these things can work, it's him

10:25:59 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 18 @ 0.11000002 = 1.98 BTC [-] {2}

10:27:30 punkman: girl tried some Oculus devkit, said it was pretty fun

10:28:26 Vexual: space glasses is a transparent lcd?

10:29:24 punkman: yeah so you can overlay stuff

10:29:55 Vexual: does it play office doom?

10:30:09 punkman: mebbe

10:30:12 Vexual: ok take my money

10:30:18 punkman: their demos are stupid though

10:30:23 punkman: chess, pff

10:31:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 49 @ 0.10427005 = 5.1092 BTC [-] {13}

10:31:47 Vexual: i dont chess

10:32:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 61 @ 0.10097768 = 6.1596 BTC [-] {5}

10:32:56 Vexual: http://www.techradar.com/us/news/car-tech/new-billboard-transforms-for-porsche-drivers-1279962

10:39:53 Vexual: i fthey start doing pixies in trees silk road 17 will be out of business

10:51:02 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

11:03:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14100 @ 0.00047541 = 6.7033 BTC [-]

11:17:25 BingoBoingo: felipelalli: fixed

11:19:24 felipelalli: BingoBoingo: thank you!

11:20:26 Vexual: felipelalli> where are you from?

11:22:07 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

11:22:07 felipelalli: Vexual: Brazil.

11:22:26 Vexual: any comments on this shit in ba? argentina is not far away

11:22:48 felipelalli: Vexual: are you from ARG? What "shit"?

11:23:04 Vexual: nisman, im from australia

11:25:06 felipelalli: Vexual: 80% don't know what bitcoin is and 90% of the remaining 20% think it is a scam. Is that your question?

11:26:55 Vexual: not really, but good answer

11:31:37 Vexual: rio then?

11:34:28 Vexual: surely not san paulo

11:37:08 punkman: http://dea-special-agent.blogspot.co.uk/

11:37:09 assbot: My life as a DEA Special Agent and a born-again Christian ... ( http://bit.ly/1JdoKIK )

11:43:43 Vexual: Degenerian

11:45:35 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnwiaErSuKc

11:46:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6550 @ 0.00046748 = 3.062 BTC [-]

11:58:12 nubbins`: lel

11:58:30 nubbins`: so the wood guy is found to have been using stolen artwork for his engravings

11:58:43 nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock

11:58:44 nubbins`: my sides

11:59:20 nubbins`: !up Vexual

12:00:37 Vexual: i can't even

12:01:00 Vexual: whats the wood guy?

12:01:47 Vexual: does he carve a potato print in a slab of cedar?

12:04:36 BingoBoingo: Basically

12:05:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14600 @ 0.00046642 = 6.8097 BTC [-]

12:08:02 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLSpUlPBKic

12:08:58 BingoBoingo: mega lol https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t5sk0/under_mark_karpeles_bitcoin_did_3000000_under_vc/

12:09:00 assbot: Under Mark Karpeles bitcoin did 3,000,000%. Under VC capital, merchant adoption, bitcoin bowl it did -80%. : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/15trtRm )

12:12:48 BingoBoingo: nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=931472.msg10224611#msg10224611 << lel

12:12:49 assbot: Scam Warning - Paul Revere ... ( http://bit.ly/1sY030I )

12:14:27 Vexual: is that supposed to ba a table leg? wehre sthe table?

12:14:34 BingoBoingo: Dunno

12:15:16 Vexual: lathe fail

12:16:07 Vexual: laquer is sus

12:16:36 davout: that reddit stuff is pretty funny

12:18:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30867 @ 0.00047572 = 14.684 BTC [+] {2}

12:20:55 jurov: https://github.com/The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX

12:20:57 assbot: The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/15ts5qa )

12:21:17 Vexual: mmm pussyware

12:21:46 jurov: https://github.com/The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX/commit/743e3c00b26a3d6f30752a8dfb03a68fdf298699

12:21:47 assbot: Re-instated a feminist .gitignore · 743e3c0 · The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/15ts4Tb )

12:21:57 Vexual: fuck im not reading all that

12:22:50 jurov: butbut.. you must be aware by all means that '"Logic" is years and years of Patriarchal justification — pure toxicity'

12:22:59 Vexual: looks like bullshit anyway

12:24:04 punkman: " if a single ls doesn't use up at least 50% of installed RAM then it is condoning the toxic culture of fat shaming."

12:26:02 jurov: Only womyn should be allowed to `look`. [Cishet male](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) nerds should not be allowed to use their oppressive gaze upon the beautiful visages of strong and independent womyn. 1 in 4 women are [psychologically raped by visual contact](http://www.umich.edu/~mrev/issues/Vol_10_No_6.pdf) in their lifetime when walking down the street.

12:27:49 jurov: ha. only trannies shall cast a look upon the beautiful visages of strong and independent womyn!!!1

12:30:01 punkman: https://camo.githubusercontent.com/8f39584b4f64a092da546e441fe31e67c5fe6d68/687474703a2f2f692e696d6775722e636f6d2f3857634537426c2e6a7067

12:30:03 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1sY2cJS )

12:30:03 jurov: um, from that follows womyn should always wear niqab in cisgendered society, no?

12:30:10 jurov: !up Vexual

12:30:35 Vexual: ty sir

12:32:29 BingoBoingo: jurov: Logically, but they's prefer just gouging eyes to prevent looking

12:33:12 jurov: that isn't eye rape, too?

12:33:52 Vexual: depends how deep

12:34:24 BingoBoingo: Or just do like the Vonnegut handicaps story

12:37:22 Vexual: do tell

12:38:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87200 @ 0.00046254 = 40.3335 BTC [-] {2}

12:39:46 Vexual: banksa has little claim to the azalea, iggy, is part aboriginal

12:40:05 Vexual: now thats a story

12:40:25 BingoBoingo: Vexual: asciilifeform linked it a while back. basically able people must wear handicaps to make everyone equal.

12:40:35 BingoBoingo: Stuff happens

12:40:46 Vexual: that sounds splendid

12:40:56 Vexual: ill read it

12:43:18 chetty: <BingoBoingo> Vexual: asciilifeform linked it a while back. basically able people must wear handicaps to make everyone equal.//only other solution is just kill all the handicaps

12:43:49 Vexual: were talking literal retards?

12:44:12 BingoBoingo: chetty: Or... embrace inequality...

12:44:25 Vexual: lol

12:44:34 Vexual: well said

12:45:31 Naphex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AARbneprV8Y a new generation ready for realitytv

12:45:33 assbot: MasterChef Junior Season 3 Episode 1 - The Class of 2015 - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/15ttqNM )

12:45:34 Naphex: :o

12:45:35 Naphex: omg..

12:46:13 chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

12:46:41 Vexual: they got the same guy from ironchef, with a labotomy

12:46:44 nubbins`: psychologically raped by visual contact?

12:46:53 *: nubbins` raises an eyebrow

12:47:11 nubbins`: BingoBoingo did you see the part where people found all the sources for his stolen clipart? :D

12:47:16 Vexual: you havent seen my art yet

12:47:18 nubbins`: i lel'd

12:47:18 BingoBoingo: chetty: But that goes against killing it by "fixing it" you know... in the way you kill a chanpion dog's breeding value bu fixing it

12:47:26 BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Deviantart?

12:47:29 nubbins`: Vexual i know, send me some

12:47:34 nubbins`: BingoBoingo deviantart and shutterstock (!)

12:47:43 BingoBoingo: Naphex: Yeah, now they hook em early

12:48:36 Vexual: nubs now yove comissioned it, ill do something good

12:49:48 nubbins`: sweet. if it's rad, let's work out a trade

12:49:49 chetty: BingoBoingo, oh yeah maybe Gavin does need some fixin

12:49:50 Naphex: i'm just watching if the lil ones loose a finger :D

12:49:52 nubbins`: art for books

12:50:03 Naphex: those chef knives be cutting deep into 6y/o'ds lol

12:52:43 BingoBoingo: Naphex: I remember reading about one doing just that last season

12:55:23 Naphex: BingoBoingo: one thing i'd agree, its better with kids then with idiots lol

12:55:32 Naphex: maybe that the next thing

12:57:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62300 @ 0.00045478 = 28.3328 BTC [-] {5}

12:57:42 BingoBoingo: I dunno. I think there's some value in seeing how the adults "good enough to make the show" end up failing because of Dunning Krueger.

13:02:53 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

13:03:10 Vexual: aim for the nuts

13:04:31 Vexual: thats how you fake pussyware

13:06:16 Vexual: short and sweet

13:09:09 danielpbarron: i honestly can't tell if that feminist OS is meant to be serious or satire

13:09:26 Vexual: im pretty sure its satire

13:10:47 Vexual: !s earache my eye

13:10:48 assbot: 0 results for 'earache my eye' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=earache+my+eye

13:11:03 Vexual: ;;google earache my eye

13:11:04 gribble: Cheech & Chong - Earache My Eye - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJW67QN24SA; Cheech & Chong - Earache My Eye {full version-1974} - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3bN-pI5oMg; Earache My Eye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earache_My_Eye

13:15:15 felipelalli: What do you guys think about this proposal of Theymos? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t2xrh/gavin_twenty_megabytes_testing_results/cnvew17

13:15:17 assbot: theymos comments on Gavin: Twenty Megabytes testing results ... ( http://bit.ly/15tv9Td )

13:19:51 BingoBoingo: Theymos doesn't get to have much of an opinion, but at least he isn't gavin.

13:20:05 Vexual: its up to the miners, most do small blocks, so i dont see it happening soon

13:20:55 felipelalli: I found a good idea make something implemented just to "wake up" after 2 years.

13:21:20 felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin?

13:23:15 felipelalli: Here in Brazil we still suffer with 1~5MB/s connection, depending on how the blocks increase many Brazilians and many ppl of other poor countries will be out soon.

13:24:51 BingoBoingo: Well, Gavin seems to want to actually kill Bitcoin with his ridiculous exponential growth stuff.

13:26:02 felipelalli: I guess isn't his intention, but good intention hell is paved.

13:26:46 BingoBoingo: There's already "startups" foaming at the mouth to use the block chain as file storage.

13:28:09 felipelalli: One thing I have not studied deeply, but why every node need to have all the data? Okay there enough overlap, but really all data?

13:28:36 jurov: felipelalli: how else you'll verify transactions?

13:29:50 felipelalli: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf chapter 7, isn't that proposal possible?

13:29:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/15tw4mG )

13:30:38 jurov: felipelalli: one, that would prevent bootstrapping from genesis block

13:31:07 jurov: two, under gavins proposal, the pruned db, would grow boundlessly too

13:32:04 jurov: and it makes no difference with network usage. even in "rich" countries with gigabit connections, uplink is usually much slower

13:32:38 jurov: now i have 40/40 , but back when i had 10mbit uplink, bitcoind sometimes saturated it

13:32:52 jurov: when someone decided to pull blockchain from me

13:33:05 punkman: 10mbit up? I wish

13:33:16 felipelalli: I have less than 1mbit up

13:37:38 felipelalli: with Gavin proposal, bitcoin core should be very simplified (like an "amateur" version) connected to trusted (few?) full nodes. It can work but it affects the decentralization, is that right?

13:38:40 jurov: yes it's likely to end up so

13:39:47 nubbins`: i only have crappy 30mbit up

13:41:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55800 @ 0.00047573 = 26.5457 BTC [+] {3}

13:41:41 nubbins`: 75 down ;/

13:42:20 felipelalli: only the very wealthy have this internet here in BR HUE.

13:43:43 nubbins`: it's about $100/mo here

13:44:05 nubbins`: which i think is a bit on the expensive side

13:44:45 nubbins`: !up Vexual

13:44:51 nubbins`: get a pgp key already

13:45:01 felipelalli: lel it is porn to pay it for Internet

13:45:06 Vexual: and a 5 dollar paypay?

13:46:03 jurov: vex has pgp key, just got downrated :)

13:46:21 Vexual: ive got a bitcoin key

13:46:42 Vexual: kako got fucked off with the niki minaj

13:47:39 Vexual: and his rating hold weight

13:47:56 Vexual: also im still learning

13:48:42 punkman: tails got that gpg built-in

13:49:18 punkman: and assbot doesn't do bitcoin keys anyway

13:49:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23600 @ 0.00047011 = 11.0946 BTC [-] {2}

13:49:32 Vexual: are you suggesting that if i have a pgp key n wot kako will like my occasional music?

13:50:00 Vexual: i dun see it

13:50:56 jurov: maybe if you implement ratelimiter

13:51:14 Vexual: shit ive been ratelimiting for 6 months

13:51:19 jurov: or rather evolve one lol

13:51:32 nubbins`: what?

13:51:32 Vexual: but the sydtem works, its good

13:51:39 nubbins`: ;;gettrust assbot vexual

13:51:40 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user vexual: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=vexual | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=vexual | Rated since: never

13:51:58 jurov: he's regged under some other nick

13:52:00 Vexual: im not authed

13:52:05 Vexual: muxne

13:52:05 jurov: ;;ident Vexual

13:52:05 gribble: Nick 'Vexual', with hostmask 'Vexual!~amnesia@gateway/tor-sasl/vexual', is not identified.

13:52:20 nubbins`: ;;ident muxne

13:52:20 gribble: Error: I am not seeing this user on IRC. If you want information about a registered gpg user, try the 'gpg info' command instead.

13:52:25 nubbins`: er.

13:52:31 nubbins`: ;;gettrust muxne

13:52:31 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user nubbins` to user muxne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=nubbins%60&dest=muxne | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=muxne | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014

13:52:32 jurov: you see, he's got it covered :)

13:52:39 Vexual: assbot is everywhere

13:52:44 nubbins`: lel

13:52:55 nubbins`: ;;rate vexual 1 not of this place

13:52:55 gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be authenticated to use the rating system.

13:52:59 nubbins`: ...

13:53:08 Vexual: muxne

13:53:16 Vexual: good luck

13:53:56 nubbins`: ;;gettrust assbot muxne

13:53:56 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user muxne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 3 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=muxne | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=muxne | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014

13:53:57 punkman: you'll need !rate

13:54:06 nubbins`: now there's a !rate?!

13:54:43 nubbins`: mi mente ;(

13:54:49 punkman: !gettrust assbot muxne

13:54:49 assbot: muxne is not registered in WoT.

13:56:19 nubbins`: too many wots

13:56:23 Vexual: ;;gettrust muXne

13:56:24 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user Vexual to user muXne: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=Vexual&dest=muXne | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=muXne | Rated since: Sun Jun 22 00:11:14 2014

13:56:25 nubbins`: not enough keys

13:56:50 Vexual: gribble went perl

14:01:16 nubbins`: kakobrekla why the hate ;/

14:01:42 Vexual: i spammed his chan

14:01:56 Vexual: is fair

14:01:57 *: nubbins` wanders over to kako's console and types /ignore <random nick>

14:02:14 Vexual: fucks the logs like ruin tho

14:02:32 nubbins`: what next, you gonna disable right-click on the log?

14:02:58 Vexual: nah imma draw a dino

14:03:03 nubbins`: make it so my back button doesn't work? 8)

14:03:34 Vexual: he asked me nicely first, i must admit

14:04:33 Vexual: and i've been less than repentant

14:08:14 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6j4f8cHBIM

14:12:00 Vexual: we did decide on a rate

14:16:05 BingoBoingo: !up Vexual

14:18:25 Vexual: !s 2million

14:18:26 assbot: 3 results for '2million' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=2million

14:20:17 scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/01/another-big-silk-road-2-0-arrest-full-complaint/

14:21:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6070 @ 0.00048179 = 2.9245 BTC [+]

14:22:42 BingoBoingo: O.o A new arrest!

14:22:58 BingoBoingo: Two and a half months late!

14:23:37 Vexual: thats the theme

14:31:44 Vexual: seems hypocritcal with forrest gump leadeing the prosecution

14:32:30 fluffypony: http://247cryptonews.com/4-years-in-prison-for-bitinstant-exchanger-who-helped-silk-road/

14:32:32 assbot: 4 Years in Prison for BitInstant Exchanger Who Helped Silk Road - Crypto News 24/7 – Bitcoin News ... ( http://bit.ly/1um22HG )

14:33:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68800 @ 0.00048596 = 33.434 BTC [+]

14:34:39 Vexual: ross is prolly guilty of something, but he deserves a free trial

14:34:53 Vexual: the hitmet sory is admissable

14:37:48 Vexual: all these idiots taking a deal

14:39:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9424 @ 0.00048596 = 4.5797 BTC [+]

14:41:22 Vexual: they get him for malware by using malware, that should be thrown out of court right there

14:42:29 Vexual: wtf do i care tho

14:43:26 BingoBoingo: Well, what if they come for spider venom next?

14:45:47 Vexual: still low fucks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv7HwBe28dM

14:52:10 punkman: https://gist.github.com/ryancdotorg/18235723e926be0afbdd http://kukuruku.co/hub/infosec/backdoor-in-a-public-rsa-key

14:52:11 assbot: backdoored rsa key generation ... ( http://bit.ly/1CgrAwv )

14:52:13 assbot: Backdoor in a Public RSA Key / Information Security / Kukuruku / Technology Hub ... ( http://bit.ly/1CgrzZd )

14:56:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00049642 = 13.7012 BTC [+] {2}

14:57:36 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? ben_vulpes has referenced them a lot over the past two years. they are making me want to learn Go.

14:59:00 BingoBoingo: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/illinois-says-students-have-to-give-up-facebook-passwords-or-face-prosecution

14:59:01 assbot: Illinois Says Rule-Breaking Students Must Give Teachers Their Facebook Passwords | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cgsh8X )

15:00:24 thestringpuller: ^- i wonder if this will hold precedent in making people give up private keys of any kind

15:04:44 BingoBoingo: The particular school district mentioned is disturbingly close.

15:05:38 BingoBoingo: http://www.range-r.com/FAQ/index.htm

15:05:39 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CgsTLJ )

15:05:56 BingoBoingo: ^ wall penetrating radar

15:18:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20048 @ 0.00049009 = 9.8253 BTC [-]

15:30:16 mircea_popescu: jesus sifting from all these offline messages left by people who believe enough in the gavincoin to want to buy it for .75 bitcoins each.

15:30:33 mircea_popescu: THERE'S EXACTLY ZERO OF THEM

15:31:05 mircea_popescu: apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today.

15:31:07 mircea_popescu: fatlogic.

15:39:03 BingoBoingo: Maybe they aren't sure enough yet that there will be a Gavincoin given -dev doesn't seem keen on his stuff.

15:41:07 mircea_popescu: so poorly managed, bitcoin core.

15:41:15 thestringpuller: lol. i'm the only anarchist in the office.

15:41:21 thestringpuller: trying to find another one.

15:41:22 mircea_popescu: roughly in the position of a hunting party that's out there building sandcastles and collecting flowers.

15:42:00 thestringpuller: too bad conformal is written in Go

15:42:02 thestringpuller: (jk)

15:42:29 mircea_popescu: nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb.

15:42:35 BingoBoingo: Yeah they need to find another sporting venture, because it is perfectly fine to be a fishing party while sitting around drinking beer.

15:42:55 mircea_popescu: now that's a point.

15:43:03 kakobrekla: 1. otc order book is dead, 2. noone is taking offer seriously, 3. everything else is delusion

15:43:41 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yeah, and they all work because 4. none of these derps actually matters in bitcoin.

15:43:56 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: nah, writing everthing in c++ is dumb. << wasn't bitcoin-qt 0.1 in Visual C++? that was even worse

15:44:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25950 @ 0.00048323 = 12.5398 BTC [-] {2}

15:44:20 mircea_popescu: "oh i have 50 btc in a wallet somewhere, i contributed 5000 lines of code to bitcoin core that will have to be taken out later at considerable expense and i go to all th conferences if some scammer is paying the airfare (coach)"

15:44:24 thestringpuller: i remember opening source code back in 2010 on my machine, and seeing everything chmod 777

15:44:29 mircea_popescu: this is what is supposed to impress me ?

15:44:56 BingoBoingo: I mean I have no problem with killing animals for food, but I prefer fishing to hunting because fishing has better complimentary activities you can multitask with it.

15:45:14 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller monolitic c at least had some rationale back in 1980. but c++ is not c, and for that matter the year's not 1980 either

15:45:39 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i don't know any fat hunters. i know precious few slender fishermen.

15:45:54 thestringpuller: well anything you do in C++ you can do in C. like that song (anything you can do I can do better)

15:46:09 mircea_popescu: this is doubtful, but i'll let asciilifeform argue it.

15:46:25 BingoBoingo: Here I tend to see lots of fat hunters.

15:46:35 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: This is also the rationale behind a baseball game on a hot summer day. Grrr...we need to go to one this ear

15:46:37 kakobrekla: what a landing page http://shrani.si/f/2M/LH/4MydJP6h/btcjam.png

15:46:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXfFgP )

15:46:49 kakobrekla: ultra retarded on at least 2 levels

15:46:56 mircea_popescu: jesus.

15:47:25 mircea_popescu: yeah, totally need more adoption so the various scammers with bootstrap websites can burn more noobs.

15:47:58 thestringpuller: ^- this is becoming pervasive in corporate world too

15:48:12 *: xanthyos

15:48:19 thestringpuller: marketing design sector was told, "You need to incorporate more photography"

15:48:25 thestringpuller: "in the website"

15:48:39 kakobrekla: how do they know for sure its gonna go up and how do you save if its gonna go up if you borrow now i dunno is the loan fiat based ?

15:48:49 thestringpuller: "Why so we can use more bandwidth?"

15:49:16 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla it's btcjam : if you don't simply forget all about your website account, you can always just not pay later on.

15:49:27 kakobrekla: aha hehe

15:49:44 mircea_popescu: but yeah, pretty epic.

15:49:52 mircea_popescu: atually ima do a write-up :D

15:56:22 davout: thestringpuller: i thought visual c++ was just an ide

15:57:35 mircea_popescu: nah it's a language

15:59:22 danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today. << should better offer it at 25% over, otherwise they are admitting their coin has the lower value

15:59:40 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that's what im doing.

15:59:50 mircea_popescu: pay 750 bitcoin today, receive 1000 gavincoins.

16:01:56 danielpbarron: ok so make it, pay 1000 bitcoin today, get 750 gavincoin later; that way theirs is framed as the more valuable one

16:02:41 mircea_popescu: o.O

16:02:52 mircea_popescu: you do that ? i'm curious to see this one.

16:03:22 mats: https://doar-e.github.io/presentations/securityday2015/SecDay-Lille-2015-Axel-0vercl0k-Souchet.html

16:03:24 assbot: Security Day 2015 - Lille 1 ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXkHtJ )

16:03:36 *: danielpbarron is just being silly

16:06:49 thestringpuller: davout: i guess more the windows bindings. Like MFC etc.

16:07:05 thestringpuller: davout: i use VC as a catch all like VB

16:07:37 davout: ah, so it looks like c++ with a bunch of extra packages

16:08:03 thestringpuller: yea. original bitcoin source code has tons of that in it

16:08:15 thestringpuller: i think asciilifeform submitted patch to gut all of it out.

16:08:37 artifexd: 6 days of logs... smh

16:10:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53866 @ 0.00049795 = 26.8226 BTC [+] {2}

16:10:39 nubbins`: oh my god, what if that wood collector guy illegally imports wood and Blazedout419 was working undercover with customs?!

16:11:43 BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Link?

16:12:18 danielpbarron: didn't WC brag about having access to illegal woods?

16:12:53 BingoBoingo: davout: Also different standard libraries. Microsoft Visual X language is almost always different from X proper.

16:16:03 davout: BingoBoingo: yeah, so a different language for all practical purposes

16:16:58 BingoBoingo: davout: Yeah. Even different in the most basic things, fucking iostream.h

16:19:47 nubbins`: BingoBoingo j/k

16:20:27 nubbins`: i know he's not a shill and he's not a fool, but beyond that... shrug

16:20:44 nubbins`: ;;rated Blazedout419

16:20:45 gribble: You rated user Blazedout419 on Sun Mar 2 12:59:46 2014, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: trusted trader.

16:20:57 BingoBoingo: http://www.reaxxion.com/4437/4chans-moot-now-forcing-mods-to-sign-legal-contract-that-reveals-their-identity

16:20:58 assbot: 4Chan’s Moot Now Forcing Mods To Sign Legal Contract That Reveals Their Identity ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXpkUH )

16:21:42 BingoBoingo: nubbins`: He's kind of anti-kako. While anything kako calls scam is scam andything Blazedout419 gravitates towards tends to burn him.

16:22:10 nubbins`: but kako's so friendly.

16:22:14 danielpbarron: he probably wanted to show off having lots of BTC to his forum buddies / that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality

16:23:24 BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality << tends to be what burns Blazedout419

16:24:46 kakobrekla: maybe he was reading #b-a on how art keeps getting record high prices and battles inflation and though he was getting a piece of hedge

16:26:09 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: regarding paygrade << have you ever seen Inside Man?

16:26:14 mircea_popescu: davout i don't like so much about your blog the fact there's no clear mention of the date.

16:26:49 davout: mircea_popescu: "Cette entrée a été publiée dans Bitcoin le janvier 21, 2015"

16:27:09 mircea_popescu: damn i missed that.

16:27:16 mircea_popescu: i dun like so much about my eyes how they miss things :D

16:27:33 mircea_popescu: "The fundamental pain point here, is that Gavin insists on everyone being able to get in, instead of allowing a sane transaction fee market to emerge, by letting the blocks actually fill-up."

16:27:35 thestringpuller: davout: makes me want to pick up french again.

16:27:37 davout: it's true it's not very clear though, being at the bottom

16:27:41 thestringpuller: so I can read Snowpiercer in french.

16:27:50 mircea_popescu: here's the thing : the vc circus has created an entire culture of these idiots. "grow fast make no money sell out"

16:27:59 mircea_popescu: maybe this has merits as a website develoipment paradigm

16:28:02 mircea_popescu: dubious.

16:28:08 davout: also "le janvier 21, 2015" isn't correct french :/

16:28:20 mircea_popescu: it CERTAINLY has no value as a bitcoin development paradigm, because well... BITCOIN IS NOT FOR SALE.

16:28:28 davout: thestringpuller: what's snowpiercer?

16:28:33 mircea_popescu: not in the sense where some vcs come on later, pat us on the head, give each a car and wipe us out.

16:28:37 nubbins`: snowpiercer, lel

16:28:45 mircea_popescu: bitcoin is here to make those vcs beggars.


16:28:51 nubbins`: SNOWPIERCER

16:28:54 nubbins`: WE SWEAR IT MAKES SENSE

16:28:59 thestringpuller: its called Le Transperceneige

16:29:07 thestringpuller: in franche

16:29:12 thestringpuller: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Transperceneige

16:29:15 thestringpuller: france***

16:29:17 *: chetty repeats self "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

16:29:24 davout: oic

16:29:33 nubbins`: interestingly, they choose to waste their fuel on locomotion rather than as a heat source

16:29:47 nubbins`: because if all that's left is a train, you better believe we're gonna make it run!

16:30:19 thestringpuller: nubbins`: the train runs on perpetual motion donchakno?

16:30:25 nubbins`: o

16:31:03 mircea_popescu: "<gavinandresen> Ah? so you?re saying we should decrease the 1MB limit, so there are higher fees and miners make more money?"

16:31:07 mircea_popescu: such facetious bs.

16:31:31 mircea_popescu: "i want to tear down this wall". "why ?" "it opresses me". "the wall keeps the outside out" "OH SO YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD PUSH IT FURTYHER IN ?"

16:31:36 mircea_popescu: no you fucking idiot that there's no other.

16:31:49 mircea_popescu: you are ill qualified to as much as change a fucking version in the bvlocks, let alone the database.

16:31:58 mircea_popescu: stop pretending like you can push walls around and go take your ritalin.

16:32:01 mircea_popescu: jesus fuck.

16:32:30 mats: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2916475/Al-Qaeda-YouTube-video-shows-jihadists-using-Snowden-leaks-evade-Western-surveillance.html

16:32:33 assbot: Al Qaeda's YouTube guide for jihadists | Daily Mail Online ... ( http://bit.ly/1CgCxhz )

16:32:57 mircea_popescu: actually i suppose thois belongs there.

16:33:25 mats: an idiot's guide to opsec.

16:36:00 mircea_popescu: davout "Votre commentaire est en attente de validation." lmao.

16:36:10 mircea_popescu: webfrench is such lulzfrench

16:36:28 davout: c'est pourtant du français correct :)

16:38:50 davout: this is actually lulzier -> "Fièrement propulsé par WordPress"

16:39:29 davout: "Proudly propelled by wordpress"

16:41:09 davout: i guess the translator ran it by several actual frenchologists

16:42:46 thestringpuller: gotta make sure french language stays pure against all the hoodlums and their slang

16:42:56 davout: fuck oui

16:42:59 mircea_popescu: propulse lol

16:43:03 mircea_popescu: does that stricly mean kinetic ?

16:43:23 davout: yes

16:44:33 davout: actually the people from Québec might be even more hardcore protectors of french purity than the people from france

16:45:02 davout: their accent and some of their expressions are extremely cute tho

16:45:09 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/btcjam-what-starts-as-a-scam-stays-a-scam/

16:46:52 mircea_popescu: http://fr.anco.is/2015/gavineries/ << someone put it up on reddit ? i don't recall if dman was ever there.

16:46:53 assbot: Gavineries | fr.anco.is ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXwFmX )

16:47:17 thestringpuller: done

16:47:35 davout: mircea_popescu: dunno, didn't do it myself, figured it'd be too good for them and get downvoted anyway

16:47:43 davout: thestringpuller: ty, let's see how that goes

16:47:50 davout: thestringpuller: also link?

16:47:53 mircea_popescu: davout yeah but why should you be spared the sort of idiocy living there.

16:48:11 mircea_popescu: davout anyway, where was this convo ?

16:48:53 mircea_popescu: seems kinda bizarre gavin still pretends like he's had a public discussion about this but so far has not quite got his courage up enough to bring his hairball of non sequiturs, wild jumps and logic holes over here.

16:48:59 davout: mircea_popescu: private, he pm'd me on btctalk after seeing me comment on the fork off thread

16:49:26 mircea_popescu: well, tell him he has a chance to be heard, and learn exactly why he is wrong and generally grow as a person.

16:49:31 thestringpuller: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t6oks/gavineries_irc_discussion_of_the_block_size/

16:50:15 thestringpuller: upvote for visibility etc. etc.

16:50:40 thestringpuller: interested to see low paygraders try to interpret it

16:50:45 thestringpuller: aka redditards

16:50:47 mircea_popescu: paygraders eh ?

16:51:08 mircea_popescu: there's two kind of idiots in this world : the retrograde, and the paygrade.

16:51:37 mircea_popescu: "I?m waiting for somebody to notice us greedy early adopters get a free ride on transaction fees and complain....."

16:51:48 mircea_popescu: that's what "free ride" is now. having built value over time is a "free ride"

16:51:58 mircea_popescu: how dumb does one get ?

16:52:23 mircea_popescu: hey gavin ? YOU ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE. you're pretty much the only one. you're a middling software engineer that is STILL leeching some historical happenstance.,

16:52:52 thestringpuller: this is probably why rappers retire after 30

16:52:55 mircea_popescu: nothing about your own intellect, experience, competence or otherwise merit justifies me even knowing your fucking name. you're nobody in the plainest sense, i can throw a rock in any town in america and probably hit two of you!

16:52:56 thestringpuller: (excluding Jay-Z)

16:52:57 mircea_popescu: jesus.

16:53:19 davout: "if you want to come in #bitcoin-assets and argue a bit your proposal, a bunch of folks would be interested" <<< let's see how that goes

16:54:05 davout: "can’t right now, have a lunch meeting. Happy to another time"

16:54:15 mircea_popescu: no it's perfect, i have a lunch meeting too.

16:54:23 mircea_popescu: ima be back in ~3 hours.

16:54:33 mircea_popescu: would have been a shame to miss all this.

16:54:42 davout: 3 hour lunch? what are you? french?

16:54:58 mircea_popescu: oui!

16:55:10 chetty: 3 hours is a short quick lunch in Argentina

16:55:26 davout: "gonna get me some subway, see you tomorrow"

16:55:49 thestringpuller: they have subway in france?

16:56:04 davout: the perfect duration for a meal is when the end of the previous one overlaps with the beginning of the next one

16:56:05 thestringpuller: i thought the french frowned upon "american" food

16:56:15 davout: yeah, we have subway

16:56:30 davout: thestringpuller: yes they do, but they love it

16:57:04 thestringpuller: !b3

16:57:11 thestringpuller: Opps nvm.

17:02:57 mike_c: hmm.. "<sipa> justanotheruser: but control of coins != ownership of coins"

17:04:03 BingoBoingo: wtf

17:04:16 mike_c: bitcoin-dev is confused about some things.

17:06:25 mod6: o.O

17:08:10 danielpbarron: it was already posted to reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t49um/mustread_transcript_of_blocksize_discussion_with/

17:08:11 assbot: Must-read: Transcript of block-size discussion with Gavin : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1xXCr8j )

17:08:15 mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them".

17:09:04 mike_c: which isn't really true. and the fact of that will become interesting when mpex takes a side on the hard-fork.

17:11:07 undata: mike_c: it's that watered down socialist meaning of "own" where it's abstract, not "this is under my control"

17:11:14 undata: "I own this house."

17:11:26 undata: no, the bank and state do

17:19:21 asciilifeform: !up diametric

17:21:00 diametric: yay

17:21:13 diametric: trying to figure out why assbot can't find my key on mit.pgp.edu.

17:21:51 asciilifeform: kakobrekla ^

17:22:13 kakobrekla: does it take like while before it says it cant find it ?

17:22:19 kakobrekla: eh

17:22:21 kakobrekla: like=while

17:22:45 kakobrekla: a while*

17:22:46 kakobrekla: lol

17:23:02 kakobrekla: like 60 sec, or is it instant

17:24:43 diametric: it instantly says it can't find it

17:25:54 kakobrekla: try in 30 min will you, and if it doenst work then ill do it manually or smth

17:26:09 kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot

17:27:06 diametric: will do

17:27:09 davout: "Gavin's patience. Wow."

17:27:15 davout: "that's the main thing i'm constantly impressed by, his demeanor is exactly right for the position he's in. he's a role model to us all, a modern day gandhi so to speak. ;)"

17:28:20 BingoBoingo: And like Ghandi he will try to ruin a good thing.

17:28:37 BingoBoingo: May Gavin be less successful

17:28:45 davout: "You are 100000% correct. It's funny how easy it is to spot a statist who thinks everything should be controlled instead of letting the market do its job."

17:30:30 BingoBoingo: lol https://twitter.com/prestonjbyrne/status/557949175435124736

17:30:32 assbot: Brilliant post by /fraudsters. http://t.co/YS6rOgof1I

17:30:49 BingoBoingo: loling at the name tweeting fraudsters

17:50:41 asciilifeform: !up diametric

17:51:11 diametric: tried doing it myself again, came back saying it can't find my fingerprint.

17:51:17 diametric: I'll give it some more time.

17:52:48 diametric: nubbins`: I've thoroughly enjoyed the woodcollector posts.

17:53:58 nubbins`: tyvm, glad you finally got an account ;D

17:56:54 diametric: nubbins`: are you actually going to post a video to prove a point to one of his shills/

17:57:20 *: nubbins` shrugs

17:59:50 asciilifeform: !up gavinandresen

18:00:01 gavinandresen: howdy y'all

18:00:54 kakobrekla: hi

18:01:28 felipelalli: hi!

18:02:11 gavinandresen: I came here so you can tell me how I’m going to ruin bitcoin (again…)

18:02:30 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu awake ?

18:03:06 davout: gavinandresen: hello

18:03:15 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#986141

18:03:15 assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 16:54:23; mircea_popescu: ima be back in ~3 hours.

18:08:28 felipelalli: gavinandresen: when was the first time that you have "ruined" bitcoin?

18:08:53 gavinandresen: felipelalli: when we did BIP16 to make multisig wallets easy to deploy

18:09:49 gavinandresen: … that was a soft fork, not a hard fork, but it still caused people to accuse me of trying to destroy Bitcoin

18:09:55 davout: felipelalli: that was a soft fork

18:10:20 *: ben_vulpes sniff

18:10:20 *: ben_vulpes sniffs

18:10:26 ben_vulpes: i smell drama

18:10:30 felipelalli: thank you

18:11:05 ben_vulpes: is a soft fork not a breaking of bitcoin in some way?

18:11:24 gavinandresen: a soft fork means miners must upgrade, or their blocks will be rejected.

18:11:33 kakobrekla: ben_vulpes for drama you need GA and MP present at same time.

18:11:39 gavinandresen: a hard fork means everybody running a full node must upgrade, or they will be on a different chain

18:11:50 davout: ben_vulpes: a soft fork is making the set of valid blocks smaller, a hard fork is the opposite

18:12:02 gavinandresen: MP will bring all the drama :-) I try hard to be drama-free.

18:12:04 ben_vulpes: ah, so a breaking of the protocol

18:12:28 gavinandresen: ben_vulpes: yes; a soft fork makes the protocol more strict. You have to hard fork to make it more lenient.

18:12:30 felipelalli: davout: nice explanation. It gives a good article in qntra.net

18:13:14 ben_vulpes: well i can tell you right now there is zero support around here for changing the protocol in any way.

18:13:41 felipelalli: increase the 21M max coins is possible through a hard fork?

18:13:42 gavinandresen: ben_vulpes: really? Have read https://gist.github.com/sipa/5d12c343746dad376c80 ???

18:13:43 assbot: Proposed DERSIG BIP ... ( http://bit.ly/183BYN5 )

18:14:02 ben_vulpes: around *here*, gavinandresen.

18:14:12 ben_vulpes: not wherever you people get together and wank about "innovation" in the blockchain

18:14:49 gavinandresen: okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake.

18:15:33 ben_vulpes: the topic under discussion is the moronic megablock shit, not signature rules.

18:15:54 ben_vulpes: "oh look we're also talking about improving things over there so you may as well roll over on the megablocks issue"

18:16:00 ben_vulpes: no. not happening.

18:16:00 felipelalli: gavinandresen: theymos said: << (...) Make the change now, but have it take place at a particular date or block number 2 years in the future. Then when the change actually happens, everyone will already be updated because almost no one uses 2-year-old software. Yes, 2 years is a long time, but we'll survive. >> is that possible and why it is a good or bad idea?

18:16:44 gavinandresen: felipelalli: that’d be a fine way to roll out the change; I think gmaxwell and sipa prefer that plan.

18:17:08 ben_vulpes: !gettrust assbot felipelalli

18:17:09 assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user felipelalli: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/felipelalli | http://w.b-a.link/user/felipelalli

18:17:34 kakobrekla: that like "dont worry we have 2 years to 'fight'" and then "o shit did we miss it?" 2 years later.

18:17:41 felipelalli: gavinandresen: do you prefer different? If yes, why?

18:17:47 ben_vulpes: !rate felipelalli -1 snr penalty

18:17:47 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/c71454916252d225

18:17:50 asciilifeform: the philosophy of the slow poisoner, vs. a fellow willing to knife in broad daylight

18:17:55 davout: gavinandresen: "okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake." <<< actually i distinctly remember mike hearn telling me how that particular bug was part of the protocol and how it somehow justified not putting any effort towards actually specifying anything, in a spec, not in code

18:18:40 ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.felipelalli.-1:d220de3c0270b6e3f3f923fa6dbfd6daa164792bb1919eccdca66d6aedf87c4c

18:18:40 assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: snr penalty

18:18:41 ben_vulpes:

18:18:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64000 @ 0.00047807 = 30.5965 BTC [-] {2}

18:18:46 ben_vulpes: !down felipelalli

18:19:51 kakobrekla: well at least down works.

18:20:25 davout: that escalated rather quickly

18:20:38 ben_vulpes: obvious plant is obvious

18:20:49 asciilifeform: !up diametric

18:21:24 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: have you met http://thebitcoin.foundation ?

18:21:24 assbot: ..::[ The Bitcoin Foundation ]::.. ... ( http://bit.ly/183CXwF )

18:21:24 ben_vulpes: in any event, gavinandresen, there'll be no more forks from you. you blew it back in the day, and you lost the initiative on this one months ago.

18:23:26 Pierre_Rochard: my main disagreement is on the economics side, you say “ Limit the number of transactions that can happen on the Bitcoin blockchain, and instead of paying higher fees people will perform their transactions somewhere else.”

18:24:00 ben_vulpes: horseshit.

18:24:02 ben_vulpes: there is only bitcoin.

18:24:06 Pierre_Rochard: My response to that is two-fold: if maximizing revenue to miners is our goal, then shifting marginal demand to substitutes is fine.

18:25:01 ben_vulpes: there is only bitcoin, and if one cannot afford the miners fees for inclusion in a block, one does not need to transfer bitcoins enough.

18:25:02 Pierre_Rochard: Second, there is distance between the total transaction costs of Bitcoin vs the substitutes. So there’s inelasticity in demand

18:26:43 Pierre_Rochard: So here’s my hypothesis: if we allow the network to hit the block size limit, then we’ll see the transaction fee revenue growth *accelerate*, up until the point that substitution begins happening in earnest, then the fee revenue growth will *decelerate* or stall.

18:27:27 ben_vulpes: let's at least hit the steady state behavior before starting to diddle with important economic variables like block size.

18:27:42 davout: Pierre_Rochard: shut up and stop making so much sense

18:27:43 Pierre_Rochard: that would indicate that demand is inelastic, and it would tell us where the upper bound on bitcoin tx fees roughly is

18:27:54 Pierre_Rochard: all else equal

18:28:03 ben_vulpes: yeah, and again we're at the "snapshot of a dynamic thing

18:28:07 ben_vulpes: " state

18:29:10 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb. << write it in every language, discover interesting bugs.

18:29:22 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think you’re confusing the limit miners self-impose with the hard-coded upper limit

18:29:28 Pierre_Rochard: Now this part may be controversial for some members of b-a, but it’s at the point where fee revenue growth decelerates that the block size should be increased *marginally*, if the goal is to maximize fee revenue

18:29:36 davout: gavinandresen: why would miners impose a self limit?

18:29:51 gavinandresen: davout: today, because bigger blocks take a while to propagate.

18:29:54 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think the limit that miners self-impose would not hold. I think we see that today

18:29:57 ben_vulpes: Pierre_Rochard: you assume some kind of "goal", and that there's a "we" with it.

18:30:01 asciilifeform: !up gavinandresen

18:30:02 Pierre_Rochard: !up gavinandresen

18:30:06 davout: isn't there a plan to make block propagation O(1) by using headers-first?

18:30:26 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: what effect do you suppose your enlarged blocks would have on the number of operating full nodes ?

18:30:30 gavinandresen: davout: when that is fixed by protocol changes, they will have some minimum costs to processing transations plus a little profit

18:30:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62448 @ 0.00048429 = 30.2429 BTC [+] {2}

18:31:00 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: see my technical roadmap post for what needs to be done to increase number of full nodes

18:31:10 davout: gavinandresen: you're not really answering the question regarding headers-first

18:31:18 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: if there are no network protocol changes, then we’re in trouble, because number of full nodes may continue to decline

18:31:21 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: do you intend to donate hard disks to everyone running a full node ?

18:31:34 gavinandresen: davout: sorry, missed, the question, real-world distraction…

18:31:40 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: or how otherwise compensate for a 20-fold growth in storage requirement

18:32:12 gavinandresen: davout: oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1), and that’s what I mean when I say “when that is fixed by protocol changes"

18:32:46 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: storage is not the bottleneck/cost, bandwidth is.

18:33:19 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: again, go read the technical road map post, section on pruning the chain

18:33:33 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i have read it.

18:33:41 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: and disagree with the entire concept of 'pruning'

18:33:51 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: okey dokey.

18:35:01 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: if Satoshi hadn’t slapped on a 1MB blocksize limit, would you be lobbying for a hardfork now to impose one?

18:35:10 gavinandresen: … execuse me, soft fork....

18:35:15 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: yes, I would

18:35:25 artifexd: !s rsa backdoor

18:35:27 assbot: 5 results for 'rsa backdoor' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=rsa+backdoor

18:35:37 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: ok, exactly what would you propose?

18:35:59 asciilifeform: artifexd: the linked article was a very basic example of 'kleptography' (see our old thread)

18:36:24 asciilifeform: artifexd: there are considerably subtler ways to diddle rsa key generation.

18:36:35 ben_vulpes: this is a distraction and poor logic.

18:36:38 ben_vulpes: there is a 1mb limit.

18:36:42 ben_vulpes: we are not considering counterfactuals.

18:36:42 artifexd: Yeah. I found the article through my own education. I wanted to see if it had already been discussed in here.

18:36:56 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that we don’t increase the limit until we see what happens to total fee revenue growth after a few months of full blocks

18:37:46 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think we’re there: http://hashingit.com/analysis/39-the-myth-of-the-megabyte-bitcoin-block

18:37:47 assbot: The Myth Of The Megabyte Bitcoin Block ... ( http://bit.ly/1xz3jws )

18:38:38 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: the 0.10 release’s wallet code includes floating fees, so over the next couple months we should get a much better idea of what is happening fee-wise.

18:38:45 Pierre_Rochard: then let’s stay there for six months to collect the data

18:38:48 Pierre_Rochard: ^ great

18:39:15 ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage.

18:39:16 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: what information will we get that will influence how large to make blocks?

18:39:23 ben_vulpes: in fact the entire wallet model is completely broken.

18:40:11 ben_vulpes: the moronic quest to make the thing occupy as little space on disk as possible precluded you people from selecting a queryable db

18:40:14 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … I misstated: that will influence the maximum possible block size....

18:40:20 ben_vulpes: and so, you had to track "relevant transactions" in the wallet.

18:40:51 gavinandresen: ben_vulpes: “patches welcome” Alex Morcos has a patch pending with better fee estimation code.

18:40:51 ben_vulpes: then you got hosed with the whole "change address" debacle.

18:40:51 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: they go from little space, to infinite space, as circumstances dictate

18:41:16 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: fee revenue growth, if it accelerates then demand for btc transactions is relatively inelastic, the point at which it declerates indicates where substitution starts happening. If it’s right away, then you’re right on the economics. If its after a period of faster growth, then we can see what bitcoin transaction fee the market will bear before switching to substitutes

18:41:23 ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: i'm pointing out that the only acceptable patch for wallets is total removal.

18:42:01 ben_vulpes: and our stake in the ground (0.5.3) is our indictment of everything that your people have done for the past umpteen months.

18:42:11 ben_vulpes: it's unnecessary and i reject it.

18:42:32 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: we have here an entire project dedicated to undoing everything you and your associates have ever done to bitcoin.

18:42:56 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: but why would we want to hit the “then substitutes start happening” when we’re in Bitcoin’s infancy?

18:43:09 ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: and we have the guns, coin and code on our side.

18:43:16 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: Seems to me it is better to do everything we can to encourage widespread adoption right now.

18:43:17 ben_vulpes: that is to say, "god".

18:43:19 asciilifeform: what, precisely, are these 'substitutes' ?

18:43:24 asciilifeform: i'd much like to know

18:43:31 asciilifeform: cowrie shells? reichsmarks? u.s. dollars ?

18:43:32 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: because the substitution would just be happening at the margin

18:43:34 asciilifeform: or scamchains

18:43:48 ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: adoption is for the masses. i don't give a single fuck about the masses. bitcoin is not for them now, nor will it ever be.

18:44:20 asciilifeform: ('schelling point' dictates that there can be precisely one blockchain.)

18:44:22 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: But we’d get probably at least six months, maybe a year or two of substitution because it takes time to roll out a hard forking change

18:44:33 asciilifeform: again, substitution with what ?

18:44:40 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think Bitcoin’s overall value proposition is so overwhelming that what’s hampering Bitcoin adoption is not tx fees, it’s just the Lindy effect of it being around long enough

18:45:04 ben_vulpes: want to talk about what's hampering adoption?

18:45:14 ben_vulpes: stale wallet backups that your asshats are responsible for.

18:45:22 ben_vulpes: non deterministic transaction generation.

18:45:22 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: okey dokey. What if you’re wrong?

18:45:44 ben_vulpes: KV stores for a complex data set.

18:45:46 ben_vulpes: the list goes on.

18:45:55 ben_vulpes: and you insist on "adding features" instead of fixing your mistakes.

18:46:00 gavinandresen: Anybody be offended if I ignore ben_vulpes? distracting me….

18:46:10 ben_vulpes: ha yeah please

18:46:19 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: then we see an acceleration of adoption of an altcoin / altcoins in general and react accordingly

18:46:27 ben_vulpes: don't address any of the *only valid points* being made here.

18:46:28 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: But you just said you want to let fees go up high enough so, at the margin, some people ARE turned away.

18:46:48 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: if you only answer one of my question, pray tell, what are the 'substitutes' ?

18:47:04 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: where might one find some.

18:47:06 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that’s right, that’s the signal to increase the block size limit

18:47:13 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: So, lets say we do see fees rise. How far do we let them rise? Who decides?

18:47:55 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i can't afford 'mercedes' so my 'honda' is a fairly good substitute for the machine. but where might one obtain a cheaper, more plentiful ersatz substitute for bitcoin ?

18:48:15 ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: you cannot construct this conversation on the foundation of fees. you cannot possibly know how fees will behave in steady state or in perpetually inflating block size state.

18:48:34 ben_vulpes: you've lost all support for these large blocks in -dev

18:48:37 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: at some point they stop rising because they’re too high for the marginal transactor

18:48:38 ben_vulpes: you never had any support in -assets

18:48:38 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: substitutes for Bitcoin are altcoins, sidechains, off-chain transactions, credit cards, wire transfers…..

18:48:40 ben_vulpes: give. up.

18:48:56 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: except that these systems are not substitutes for bitcoin.

18:49:02 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: they don't do the same job.

18:49:03 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: in theory the miners would decide, in practice the core devs

18:49:22 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: none of the items you mentioned is a stable, noninflationary, decentralized store of value.

18:50:12 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: unfortunately, the experience for the marginal transactor is terrible: their transactions just never, ever confirm. Their coins get tied up…

18:50:39 asciilifeform: turd is not a substitute for sausage, despite the topological similarities.

18:50:51 asciilifeform: regardless of any perceived shortage of sausage.

18:50:53 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: if wallets could deal with that I’d be more open to running the experiment, although I still think it is a terrible idea to shut out ANY reasonable use cases at this early stage of Bitocn’s life

18:51:23 asciilifeform: !up diametric

18:51:23 ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: nobody who matters gives a shit about the marginal user.

18:51:42 ben_vulpes: and their transactions *don't* get tied up forever.

18:51:53 ben_vulpes: eventually they mature and are prioritized.

18:51:58 ben_vulpes: this is FUD, plain and simple.

18:52:05 ben_vulpes: fucking drop it.

18:52:10 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: You started with a premise that I reject, by the way: I do not believe that a goal should be to maximize miner revenue

18:52:34 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody

18:52:34 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think that our disagreement on that premise precludes agreeing on anything downstream of that

18:52:58 ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody << you're fired.

18:53:00 ben_vulpes: again.

18:53:01 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: you’re probably right. Are you a miner yourself?

18:53:46 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=11-01-2015#973570

18:53:46 assbot: Logged on 11-01-2015 22:33:39; kakobrekla: how do other envision the future when reward goes towards 0. either a btc is worth half a planet or the fees amount per block go up a few orders of magnitude or network is dead

18:53:54 kakobrekla: which ?

18:54:05 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I am not. I just see a “too low” long term hash rate as the greatest risk of ruin Bitcoin faces, and it ought to be minimized before all other considerations

18:56:42 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: what do you think of my argument that hash rate and fees are apples and oranges? That people will substitute away from fee-paying transactions to other solutions that use the block chain, which means trying to maximize fees means no guarantee that there will be enough hash rate to secure the chain?

18:57:15 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: 'other solutions that use the block chain' ? please elaborate.

18:57:27 kakobrekla: >altcoins, sidechains

18:57:39 asciilifeform: scamchains.

18:57:51 gavinandresen: not altcoins— centralized services like Coinbase. Or sidechains.

18:58:03 asciilifeform: how many need to implode before folks open a game theory textbook and understand that the correct number of blockchains is one ?

18:58:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.00049015 = 1.2254 BTC [+]

18:58:23 asciilifeform: and what kind of brain damage does it take to see a centralized whatever as any kind of functional substitute for bitcoin ?

18:58:29 kakobrekla: coinbase and the like can be *poof* gone in one day

18:59:41 kakobrekla: too slow i am, this cake is hindering me

18:59:49 ben_vulpes: !up lobbes

19:00:18 lobbes: gavinandresen: Why are you so set on this 'widespread' adoption notion? It is never going to happen

19:00:31 ben_vulpes: !up gavinandresen

19:00:46 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: If I understand your argument correctly, you’re saying that the elasticity of demand is so great that fee maximization will be insufficient anyway, so try finding another solution now. That’s a pretty good argument, I think we should see what happens to fee revenue growth to validate it. If, say, the average fee goes up to 0.0004 btc and doesn’t budge from there, but anecdotally we hear that

19:00:47 Pierre_Rochard: off-blockchain transactions are taking off, then your argument will have won the day

19:01:02 asciilifeform: i can almost imagine some fellow advocating the urgency of bringing down megatonnes of gold from the asteroid belt, because failing this, a great many 'gold users' may take to using paper certificates 'as substitute'

19:01:13 lobbes: as others have stated; bitcoin is not meant for the 'masses'

19:01:28 ben_vulpes: lobbes: tell him who said it, he's ignoring me.

19:01:45 asciilifeform: i suspect that he is ignoring most or all of us.

19:01:56 ben_vulpes: !gettrust assbot gavinandresen

19:01:56 assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user gavinandresen: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/gavinandresen | http://w.b-a.link/user/gavinandresen

19:01:58 kakobrekla: and i wasnt even insulting.

19:02:08 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: but my intuition tells me such substitution won’t happen at such a low fee

19:02:18 asciilifeform: i, for one, would simply like some non-weasel answers to a few basic questions.

19:02:51 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: this is why you kept getting sucked into arguing with Robert Viragh over plainly stupid shit.

19:02:55 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: ok. I’d like to brainstorm more about how you would set the maximum block size— I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable)

19:03:14 davout: gavinandresen: "oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1)" <<< so with that, there's no network bottleneck anymore, at least no real incentive for miners to keep blocks small, right?

19:03:15 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i do believe i succeeded in ultimately pulling his wings off.

19:03:20 ben_vulpes: !rate gavinandresen -5 broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within.

19:03:20 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/26d14cdaa2588fd5

19:03:46 ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.gavinandresen.-5:1b1cb1a93eadfd534bec6d5cdc3328d057c6baa2e6e97b7bfa34e5157384cc73

19:03:46 assbot: Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within.

19:03:46 ben_vulpes:

19:03:53 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: ok, answers to your questions: I don’t know how many need to implode. And I don’t know what kind of brain damage.

19:03:54 ben_vulpes: !down gavinandresen

19:04:10 kakobrekla: cmon he is still emitting

19:04:13 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: srsly

19:04:13 kakobrekla: !up gavinandresen

19:04:19 ben_vulpes: grarrghragr

19:04:23 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu hasn't even opened up yet

19:04:26 gavinandresen: davout: Miners would only have the meta-incentive of “we can collectively maximize revenue if we make blocks THIS big”

19:04:32 ben_vulpes: let him up the spamgun

19:04:50 gavinandresen: davout: I have no idea if the would cooperate enough to make that happen.

19:04:58 davout: gavinandresen: i'm completely with ben_vulpes "the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage." on one hand it's not the wallet responsibility, and on the other hand that has nothing to do with the protocol

19:05:19 gavinandresen: davout: ok, “patches welcome"

19:05:33 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it's just a basic blood pressure/cortisol reduction measure

19:05:50 davout: gavinandresen: “patches welcome" <<< i don't use your wallet tbh

19:06:04 gavinandresen: davout: great! your wallet can do whatever it likes with respect to fees.

19:07:11 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: the only way I see is to regularly test at what tx fee the substitution begins happening, and increase it at the margin (say 20%) whenever the top percentile of fees starts hitting it. Yes, that would involve perhaps semi-annual block size limit increases and an element of judgement. I still see it as a better solution than a much-too-high limit or a contrived algorithm

19:07:26 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: so you admit that there is not, nor can there be, a non-fraudulent 'substitute' for bitcoin? that altchains, state-minted fiat, cowrie shells, are not in fact equivalent ?

19:07:40 Pierre_Rochard: increase it at the margin (say 20%) < increase the block size limit

19:07:50 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

19:07:54 gribble: Current Blocks: 339942 | Current Difficulty: 4.397166205608958E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 340703 | Next Difficulty In: 761 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 42292830486.1 | Estimated Percent Change: -3.81799

19:08:06 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: huh? a sidechain to which you transfer BTC value would be a non-fraudulent substitite.

19:08:29 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: it is fraudulent by virtue of not being the one and only genuine bitcoin. the schelling point.

19:08:47 asciilifeform: and by being crafted to give the opposite impression.

19:09:07 asciilifeform: (shit is not a fraudulent form of gold, but 'fool's gold' may be put to use as such)

19:09:24 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: can you define “much too high limit” ?

19:10:20 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: one where there is no competition among transactors to get into a block

19:10:40 undata: right, one would have to reach that state to know

19:11:00 asciilifeform: the whole concept of a 'sidechain' is an elaborate chumpatron.

19:11:06 Pierre_Rochard: that is, competition that would at least attempt to maximize transaction fee revenue

19:11:30 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: fee revenue measured in real prices, yes?

19:12:21 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … because driving up real Bitcoin prices is why I think we should do everything possible to encourage widespread adoption

19:12:23 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that’s actually a very interesting question because we currently live in a world where miner liabilities are in fiat prices, but in the future that may not be the case.

19:12:46 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what even is a sidechain?

19:13:02 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: another question: why precisely do you wish to rescue those who might be tempted to use 'substitutes' for bitcoin ?

19:13:44 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN?

19:13:49 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: right, that goes back to bitcoin’s adoption relative to other altcoins. when we see a divergence then we know there’s substitution going on

19:14:07 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: understand that you are now speaking to a number of people who do not believe inclusiveness itself to be a virtue. a steak eaten by a hundred thousand flies is 'more inclusive' than same stake being eaten by a man.

19:14:14 asciilifeform: *steak

19:14:43 gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think if you went to a VC with a business plan of “We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers” the VC would tell you that is a huge mistake if you’re a high-growth thing-a-ma-bob

19:15:04 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: in your mind, it is a religion? as in, the gods whispered to you that you must bring as many unbelievers as possible into the fold ?

19:15:23 gavinandresen: asciilifeform: I’ll use <just joking> tags next time

19:15:33 ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN? << good fucking god

19:15:44 asciilifeform: We?re going to raise prices until we start losing customers << what do you suppose the business model of 'aston martin' is ?

19:15:46 xanthyos: the bible warned us about you gavinandresen

19:15:58 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I agree, but in this case I think Bitcoin’s competitive advantage is 100x, and transaction fees are a relatively small part of that, so if they were $0.50 instead of $0.05, adoption rate would decrease by let’s say 0.01%.

19:16:08 ben_vulpes: gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever.

19:16:20 gavinandresen: Ok, if y’all are interested in keeping Bitcoin an exclusive little club… then okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.

19:16:35 Pierre_Rochard: so it’s immaterial, yet that transaction fee revenue is super-important for the customers to know, long term this is a viable enterprise that can sustain itself

19:16:54 lobbes: all you have to do is look at bitcointalk.org to see that getting clueless people involved for the sake of 'because' just leads to more scamming, and more ignorance

19:16:58 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: i find it odd that you are interested in inclusion on the user end (transactions) but not the node end

19:17:22 asciilifeform: gavinandresen: how are 20MB blocks a mechanism of 'inclusion' for folks who wish to continue running full nodes ?

19:17:29 asciilifeform: full nodes - as in, history-preserving.

19:17:33 asciilifeform: no 'pruning' bullshit.

19:17:40 danielpbarron: gavinandresen, what did satoshi write in the very first block??

19:18:32 gavinandresen: I’ve gotta go. Pierre_Rochard, nice chatting with you.

19:18:43 xanthyos: nice timing

19:18:44 xanthyos: faker

19:18:56 davout: lol

19:19:33 *: danielpbarron begins writing his indictment

19:19:38 mod6: bailiff, bring the witness back to the witness stand

19:19:42 davout: such convo, much mess, very lol

19:19:45 Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever. < this

19:20:09 Pierre_Rochard: Bitcoin is a ferrari being sold for $10. Increasing the price to $100 will not deter buyers

19:20:11 davout: poor log readers...

19:20:16 kakobrekla: the thing is he sees silly-con valley and think the ways of VS are go.

19:20:24 kakobrekla: VCs*

19:20:43 asciilifeform: hence ben_vulpes's astute observation, being that the spirit of mr. spam walked again from the grave

19:21:08 asciilifeform: it is as if all tentacles of the beast spoke with a single voice.

19:21:44 asciilifeform: not any kind of surprise, incidentally, to a student of history (all soviet bureaucrats likewise spoke in one voice.)

19:21:51 davout: "so far I’m not impressed with the quality of the conversation in #bitcoin-assets....."

19:21:57 kakobrekla: !up diametric still no luck ?

19:22:33 kakobrekla: well it was noisy.

19:22:59 kakobrekla: not in the quality sense but quantity.

19:23:03 mod6: yah. srsly.

19:24:25 Pierre_Rochard: well if he disagrees on the premise that being fort knox is more important than being a rural walmart then there’s not much to discuss

19:24:26 asciilifeform: it still escapes me, what he was hoping to achieve by coming here.

19:24:46 mod6: davout asked him to come here so he could 'chat' with mp

19:26:03 asciilifeform: even though we did not get to see this, it is not difficult to imagine how the conversation may have went.

19:26:36 asciilifeform: folks who live by weaseling, smokescreen, evasion, tend to have just a few tricks up their sleeves.

19:28:37 asciilifeform: not necessarily on account of being stupid. a flunkie, lying from a position of desperation (our friend) - is overcome by anxiety, which inhibits creativity. on the other hand, an official liar, lying from a position of brute strength (e.g., keith alexander), is hobbled by complacency.

19:30:13 jurov: he's genuinely believing bitcoin needs to be here for every man, woman and child

19:30:16 diametric: kakobrekla: no luck, still saying it can't find my fingerprint.

19:30:34 kakobrekla: fucker.

19:30:41 asciilifeform: jurov: yes, while somehow (by divine intervention?) remaining 'bitcoin'

19:32:13 asciilifeform: 'every man, woman, child' in america, africa, mars, alpha centauri - 'deserves' - a 'free' - mercedes, ph.d., three quintillion zimbabwe dollars...

19:32:20 asciilifeform: this gets old, it does.

19:35:08 davout: i would've loved seeing him actually elaborate on asciilifeform's questions

19:35:39 asciilifeform: and i'd love to fly on an f-35 with gigantic, fart-flaming pigs instead of engines.

19:35:53 Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity??

19:35:53 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

19:35:53 davout: shut up

19:36:32 Pierre_Rochard: clearly there are much more important factors to adoption than the transaction fee

19:36:42 asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: because mr. obama has not handed each of them three quintillion bitcoins yet.

19:36:51 punkman: need more bitcoin bowl ads!

19:36:59 punkman: is very important

19:37:05 Pierre_Rochard: asciilifeform: why did he not announce that last night? why does he hate the middle class so?

19:37:12 davout: the idea that there exists somewhere a magical bitcoin alternative, suffering from none of its shortcomings, towards which everyone would flow is retarded

19:37:41 asciilifeform: davout: the idea that there is, was, or can be, an actual substitute (what is the substitute for electrical current ?) - ...

19:38:00 Pierre_Rochard: davout: I agree, the moat between bitcoin and the “substitutes” is _enormous_

19:38:24 asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there are sound mathematical reasons to believe that there cannot be a stable substitute in any meaningful sense.

19:38:40 asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: see mircea_popescu's articles (ask him which, when he reappears) for elaboration.

19:39:34 Pierre_Rochard: asciilifeform: preaching to the choir, but a “substitute” in the economic term is the opposite of a “complement”, not something you necessarily consider on equal footing

19:40:03 chetty: its ok, they can just pass a law to change the maths to what they like

19:40:19 asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz.

19:40:39 asciilifeform: but if a skateboard with a missing wheel is a substitute for a 'boeing' - then, sure.

19:41:52 chetty: (all you have to do to make such a law work is send the gasenwagen for anybody that knows any maths)

19:43:16 asciilifeform: chetty: ''Winston made another convulsive movement. This time he did not say anything. O'Brien continued as though answering a spoken objection: 'For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is

19:43:16 asciilifeform: beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them. Do you suppose our mathematicians are unequal to that? Have you forgotten doublethink?' (1984)

19:44:24 asciilifeform: or, alternatively, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2014#778095 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2014#778096

19:44:24 assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:10; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the story about gorby and andropov?

19:44:24 assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'

19:44:44 asciilifeform: the funny part is that the sc4mz0rz are stuck keeping two sets of books.

19:45:17 asciilifeform: and are perpetually tempted to skip the other, honest set, entirely

19:45:48 asciilifeform: when they do - curtain call.

19:52:14 BingoBoingo: !up bitcoinmani

19:52:19 BingoBoingo: !up STRML1

19:52:23 BingoBoingo: !up gabriel_laddel

19:52:26 asciilifeform: !up diametric

19:54:35 diametric: yay

19:54:59 BingoBoingo: !up felipelalli

19:57:04 BingoBoingo: !up teek

19:57:29 asciilifeform: diametric: your key works now ?

19:57:35 diametric: yeah

19:57:41 asciilifeform: neat

19:57:51 diametric: for some real reason it wasn't importing it for the first time correctly, kakobrekla had to manually import it

19:57:53 diametric: now i'm good

19:58:10 diametric: real..i mean weird reason.

19:58:29 davout: diametric: this new assbot is a total scam

19:58:53 BingoBoingo: !up napedia

20:00:04 ben_vulpes: it's downright suspect that mircea_popescu goes to lunch and gavinandresen shows up

20:00:28 davout: ben_vulpes: it's downright suspect that it took you so long to come to this conclusion

20:00:38 ben_vulpes: fu davout

20:00:44 ben_vulpes: i'm submitting builds to apple

20:00:58 ben_vulpes: trying desperately to eke out food credits over here

20:01:03 ben_vulpes: i can't spot *every* scam

20:01:09 BingoBoingo: !up STRML1_

20:04:20 ben_vulpes: my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer"

20:04:33 ben_vulpes: xcode "code signing" is hilariously opaque

20:04:42 ben_vulpes: contains "fix issue" buttons

20:04:49 ben_vulpes: who wants to "fix issues" related to keys?

20:04:55 ben_vulpes: my keys "have issues"? get fucked!

20:06:38 davout: ben_vulpes: my worst nightmares are those i'm forced to use xcode

20:06:46 davout: *where

20:07:12 BingoBoingo: http://i.imgur.com/31X7V0J.jpg

20:07:13 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI1TnB )

20:07:18 kakobrekla: wtf is xcode even

20:07:44 ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: apples proprietary "integrated development environment" for "objective c"

20:08:34 kakobrekla: sounds great

20:08:38 thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: it's not just fo objective c

20:08:58 thestringpuller: you need xcode to run build essentials on make

20:09:03 thestringpuller: aka gcc and friends

20:09:10 thestringpuller: >:P

20:09:30 asciilifeform: gcc << nope

20:09:33 asciilifeform: they ditched gcc.

20:09:47 davout: kakobrekla: the IDE where folders don't actually create folders on disk

20:10:01 davout: thestringpuller: s/gcc/llvm/

20:10:12 davout: it's a fucking symlink

20:10:30 thestringpuller: davout: i see

20:10:37 thestringpuller: gcc --version

20:10:37 thestringpuller: Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/usr --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.2.1

20:10:39 thestringpuller: Apple LLVM version 6.0 (clang-600.0.56) (based on LLVM 3.5svn)

20:10:42 thestringpuller: Target: x86_64-apple-darwin13.4.0

20:10:44 thestringpuller: Thread model: posix

20:10:50 davout: "you want to organize your code with folders? fuck you, i'll store them randomly and index them in some massive xml turd"

20:11:36 kakobrekla: lol!

20:11:38 davout: "you want to track your code on git and code with other folks? fuck you, i'll make this massive xml piece of shit completely unmergeable"

20:11:56 thestringpuller: personal experience davout ?

20:12:10 davout: thestringpuller: yeah. needless to say the experience was short.

20:13:10 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: "would you like a mac or win machine?" "You mean which two bowls of shit would I like to eat?"

20:13:27 thestringpuller: which of the two*

20:14:37 ben_vulpes: davout: oh yeah don't use the layout engine

20:15:00 kakobrekla: you guys dont survive without apple turds?

20:15:21 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i think ben_vulpes writes softs for apple's stuff commercially ?

20:15:36 kakobrekla: well hence the question

20:15:43 kakobrekla: if he doesnt survive otherwise

20:15:45 thestringpuller: davout: at what point does this ruby thing start to grow on me?

20:16:01 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: others write the softs

20:16:18 ben_vulpes: i derp through apple's code signing shitshow so that they can focus on writing moar softs

20:16:19 davout: thestringpuller: i don't know man, who am i to know your personal tastes? :-)

20:16:26 ben_vulpes: <ben_vulpes> my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer" << asciilifeform

20:16:27 davout: thestringpuller: what are you using it for?

20:16:35 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha.

20:16:59 davout: thestringpuller: ruby can be extremly confusing, especially if you use some weird proprietary dsl someone forces on you

20:16:59 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i also unload the dishwasher in the morning and turn the lights off at night.

20:17:37 *: kakobrekla has leds, can just leave em running.

20:18:05 davout: !up STRML

20:18:08 STRML: davout: Thanks

20:18:12 davout: yw

20:18:20 thestringpuller: davout: i'm using it for web apps at work. not really a web stack developer, but it's not as bad as php but still doesn't taste good.

20:18:31 STRML: I echo your frustration with ruby. It's a nightmare trying to figure out some obscure part of the capistrano or chef DSLs

20:18:48 STRML: all the confusion and unfamiliarity of a new programming language without any of the benefits

20:19:11 thestringpuller: it's easier to debug, but so is python in the same context I guess?

20:19:19 davout: STRML: yeah, dsl's can be a massive pain

20:19:35 STRML: I'm sure they were meant to make things easier but it never quite ends up that way

20:19:35 davout: thestringpuller: i don't really know python so i can't really comment

20:19:47 ben_vulpes: it's just java

20:19:49 STRML: python is nice to debug... java too

20:19:50 ben_vulpes: for people with silly hair

20:20:06 davout: ben_vulpes: how do you know?

20:20:08 STRML: even JS isn't so bad to debug. better than php

20:20:33 davout: STRML: dsl's get much much easier when you're proficient with the language

20:20:46 davout: thestringpuller: what framework are you using?

20:20:49 ben_vulpes: davout: well i've written java, i've written ruby, and i've had extensive interactions with the relevant "communities" (although only my local java "community")

20:20:57 BingoBoingo: STRML: https://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks

20:20:59 assbot: freenode: frequently-asked questions ... ( http://bit.ly/1EsxzgY )

20:21:10 davout: ben_vulpes: i meant "how do you know about my haricut?"


20:21:41 ben_vulpes: lol well rubby haircuts are normally done by the hair wearer

20:21:50 ben_vulpes: "why are your bangs off center"

20:21:51 thestringpuller: davout: sinatra wasn't bad. now I'm learning rails.

20:22:02 davout: ben_vulpes: kek

20:22:18 davout: thestringpuller: i like sinatra, it's real simple, and there's very little magic

20:22:49 davout: i kind of dislike rails, too fat, too clunky, unless you have something that really fits the rest paradigm

20:22:54 STRML: BingoBoingo: Thanks

20:23:08 davout: thestringpuller: i really like eventmachine

20:27:12 BingoBoingo: For people catching up on mircea_popescu gavin drama http://fraudsters.com/2013/and-gavin-moves-on-to-the-dark-side-the-bitcoin-project-is-officially-hijacked/

20:27:12 assbot: And Gavin moves on to the dark side. The Bitcoin project is officially hijacked pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI2YM2 )

20:40:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43315 @ 0.00049152 = 21.2902 BTC [+] {2}

20:44:10 BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Nice video

20:45:15 nubbins`: ty

20:45:19 nubbins`: not every shill gets a shirt

20:49:58 BingoBoingo: lol

21:00:04 BingoBoingo: !up grave

21:05:27 thestringpuller: davout: do you like the french electronic music scene?

21:05:38 thestringpuller: aka justice, daft punk, et. al?

21:05:44 davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining

21:06:21 davout: also you can't really have the market price according to supply and demand when the supply's pretty much infinite for all practical purposes

21:06:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81000 @ 0.00050193 = 40.6563 BTC [+]

21:06:48 davout: thestringpuller: i'm not really such an electronic music guy

21:06:56 davout: i liked daft punk's first albums tho

21:07:12 davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy

21:07:33 thestringpuller: jazz you say? :D

21:07:37 thestringpuller: I fucking love Jazz.

21:07:37 davout: last 'electronic' music i got into was birdy nam nam

21:07:50 davout: what kind of jazz?

21:08:22 thestringpuller: All kinds everything from Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, Dave Brubeck, Dizzy, Coltrane.

21:08:31 thestringpuller: I love Lee Morgan, such an epic history to him.

21:08:48 thestringpuller: Mingus is cool as fuck too.

21:09:47 thestringpuller: how bout you?

21:10:01 davout: thestringpuller: i'm grabbing you something

21:10:26 thestringpuller: :D

21:10:53 mircea_popescu: !up bitcoinmani

21:11:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu!

21:11:39 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you missed all the fun

21:11:41 mircea_popescu: yes ?

21:11:45 mircea_popescu: what fun is that ?

21:11:47 davout: mircea_popescu: lol yes

21:11:52 ben_vulpes: roasting gavinandresen

21:12:07 mircea_popescu: haha wait, soi he had a lunch meeting except once i also had one his was cancelled ?

21:12:18 ben_vulpes: p much

21:12:18 mircea_popescu: a well. i guess bravery is not a silicon valley virtue.

21:12:35 asciilifeform: shillicon valley

21:13:15 *: mircea_popescu goes to check teh logs.

21:13:18 davout: thestringpuller: https://db.tt/iUB6Zn5E

21:13:22 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/15betPS )

21:13:57 davout: thestringpuller: sinatra cover by biréli lagrène

21:14:24 mircea_popescu: mats: dos via cert chain replacement << this http-SECURE thing is getting lulzier and lulzier

21:16:28 davout: justusranvier: especially considering that block propagation is soon to be O(1)

21:16:31 thestringpuller: davout: luck be a lady tonight. hehe.

21:16:46 thestringpuller: !s from:gavinandresen

21:16:47 assbot: 59 results for 'from:gavinandresen' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Agavinandresen

21:17:57 BingoBoingo: !s turd*

21:17:58 assbot: 794 results for 'turd*' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=turd%2A

21:18:02 mircea_popescu: punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis << yup that's a recurring topic here.

21:18:13 thestringpuller: i figured it out! gavinandresen and mircea_popescu are the same person!

21:18:20 thestringpuller: cause they are never in same room at same time

21:18:24 thestringpuller: conspiracy solved

21:18:31 davout: genius

21:18:37 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#985246 < fopr instance.

21:18:37 assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 01:56:34; mircea_popescu: right about at the time they tarred and feathered that asinine idiot who said they should wash hands

21:18:38 thestringpuller: open and shut case johnson, sprinkle some crack on him and lets get out of here

21:18:47 jurov: they happen to be in two rooms at the same time

21:18:57 jurov: or mircea is capable of bilocation?

21:19:06 asciilifeform: he fork()s

21:19:28 mircea_popescu: slandeur

21:19:33 jurov: hope he reaps his zombies

21:19:45 davout: jurov: he keeps bragging about bicopulation

21:20:03 mircea_popescu: davout bicopulation is what that deer in the middle's doin'. ain't me!

21:21:10 jurov: ;;ud bicopulation

21:21:11 gribble: Google found nothing.

21:21:34 jurov: sorry mircea, davout coined it first

21:22:08 BingoBoingo: !up devthedev

21:22:25 mircea_popescu: so i coin it biggest!

21:22:47 BingoBoingo: devthedev: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer?

21:24:28 mircea_popescu: punkman: their demos are stupid though << yeah they had no idea how to sell that thing.

21:25:28 mircea_popescu: nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock << are the da starving artists going to get a cut of the 14k ?

21:25:39 mircea_popescu: i see Blazedout419 ain't answering my q from yest ;/

21:25:41 mircea_popescu: !up Blazedout419

21:27:23 mircea_popescu: assbot: Under Mark Karpeles bitcoin did 3,000,000%. Under VC capital, merchant adoption, bitcoin bowl it did -80%. : Bitcoin << that post has a core of point in it. if it weren't wrapped in redditard retardation / karpeles bs, it'd almost be worth making.

21:28:45 kakobrekla: myea bitpay would do better if they just deleted their wallet

21:28:49 asciilifeform: one of the alchemical powers of idiots is the ability to transform theoretically good points into, well, this

21:29:13 BingoBoingo: !b 3

21:29:14 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2PQ3NZY.txt )

21:29:32 mircea_popescu: nevertheless, VCs have been doing appalingly poorly in bitcoin.

21:29:46 mircea_popescu: mostly because bitcoin does not reward their "get big fast" pump and dump scam.

21:30:11 mircea_popescu: maybe it's time they fold and just take their subervient place in the ecosystem ?

21:30:12 BingoBoingo: Well generally they tend to raise dollars and burn them. Or in BitPay's case start with Bitcoins and then burn those.

21:30:22 mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with humility if pride just means you lose money.

21:30:35 asciilifeform: VCs have been doing appalingly poorly << this assumes that their objective was to do well in the usual, commercial sense

21:30:51 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: well they don't burn btc really...

21:31:12 thestringpuller: i don't think they are allowed to hold btc as assets, i dunno.

21:31:13 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this assumes they are what they claim to be.

21:31:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: something that takes an ever rarer class of chump to believe.

21:31:51 BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC

21:32:56 mircea_popescu: not a matter of chumpness tho. suppose dude rings your doorbell dressed as a car mechanic. "yes ?" "hello i'm the pizza delivery". "you don't seem to have any pizza ?" "ha-ha! fooled you! i'm only SAYING im pizza delivery"

21:33:07 mircea_popescu: "well fuck you then ? not like i care eiter way ?"

21:33:31 davout: thestringpuller: why wouldn't they be?

21:33:34 thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: yea but from what I can gather (i am no expert), would be written as an expense

21:33:54 thestringpuller: as all their liabilities are covered as fiat, so I assume assets are handled sameway

21:34:09 mircea_popescu: davout because idiotic accountantlogic.

21:34:37 thestringpuller: ^- CFO's fault

21:34:44 mircea_popescu: right.

21:35:07 mircea_popescu: assbot: The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX << lmao this shit better be parodic.

21:35:20 thestringpuller: there's a lot wrong there, but my theory is VC's won't let them hold btc like other btc companies

21:35:22 davout: mircea_popescu thestringpuller the accountant can account for the value paymium's coin in whatever fiat he fancies, he can go fuck himself before we sell it

21:35:46 mircea_popescu: davout have you spent any time in teh us corporate environment ?

21:35:51 thestringpuller: lol

21:36:09 mircea_popescu: because it is a sort of insanity that can not readily be grasped from outside.

21:36:37 davout: mircea_popescu: ic

21:37:21 thestringpuller: davout: yea. p. much. Then VC comes in and says, "You may have this much btc on book at anytime" or I guess CFO or whatever. I dunno, I'm not an accountant.

21:37:24 thestringpuller: smickles where r u

21:38:27 davout: thestringpuller: i have already heard that from potential investors, these were shown the door

21:38:47 thestringpuller: ah so theory holds some water.


21:38:56 thestringpuller: i knew I wasn't cray cray

21:39:04 devthedev: BingoBoingo: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer? << It makes my stomach turn

21:39:12 davout: thestringpuller: yes it does, i have heard that kind of bullshit first hand

21:39:23 BingoBoingo: devthedev: Well you spotted it, you can tell the story...

21:39:48 mircea_popescu: davout there's a large chunk of facetious asshats who hate bitcoin just as much as the next guy whose unearned position it threatens. but they figure they get further with a spoonfull of honey than a barrel of vinegar, and so will make this sort of claim.

21:39:52 BingoBoingo: What did the leader of America's other Socialist party do?

21:39:54 *: Adlai had a big tussle with a business associate about his (the other guy's) emphasis on "pitching bitcoin" to investors

21:40:05 mircea_popescu: that they're "investing", that they wiosh to "drive adoption", that generally they're only trying to help.

21:40:06 Adlai: whereas my stance was that not pitching bitcoin filters out the people to whom bitcoin needs to be pitched

21:40:17 mircea_popescu: they're trivially identified in the field by the shockingly unhelpful nature of their helpings,

21:40:26 asciilifeform: 'investing' << 'embrace, extend, extinguish'

21:40:27 mircea_popescu: and by the incredible tenacity they put into keeping it that way'

21:40:38 devthedev: John Boehner opened a house session with a prayer to Allah.

21:40:38 mircea_popescu: so it's not really a very functional strategy.

21:41:41 mircea_popescu: point in case of this matter, once gavin is questioned as to why exactly he wants to do x, and he immediately and seamlessly moves into "oh, so what's the right value, so you want to do X' ??" it is clear that he is not in fact interested in what he claims to discuss

21:42:23 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: this gives me the impression that...maybe this is bitpay's handlers driving this nonsense

21:42:30 thestringpuller: as you've said before

21:42:38 thestringpuller: opaque agenda is opaque

21:42:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i for one did not expect this to be so brazenly demonstrated, so quickly, as it was.

21:43:16 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: notice how similar his flavour of muppetronics is to that of mr. spam

21:43:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform subtlety is expensive. political competence especially so.

21:43:26 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i was telling a friend the other night that the CIA/FBI acts as the USG mafia, but won't admit to being the mafia. Whereas KGB/Soviets said, "Yea we're the mob, watcha gonna do about it?"

21:43:42 mircea_popescu: the theoretical theory was that "Bitcoin is all nerds anyway" and so any old junk should stick.,

21:43:44 thestringpuller: At least the russians were willing to be SOMEWHAT honest.

21:45:15 mircea_popescu: chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" <<< "everyone wants to be a developer" happened. and "everyone should get what they want" also happened.

21:46:07 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: in the mid-20th-c., world split into 'prison' and 'psych ward' camps. 'hard' and 'soft'-power, respectively.

21:46:40 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: these being the two basic schools of thought on how to run a 20th c. state.

21:47:24 Adlai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S94ohyErSw << bitcoin theme song

21:47:26 assbot: The Rolling Stones - You Can't Always Get What You Want [Official] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI8fDp )

21:47:27 mircea_popescu: felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin? << you will benefit from reading the logs, also googling "site:fraudsters.com gavin" might help.

21:47:40 BingoBoingo: !up felipelalli

21:47:52 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where by 20th c state we mean, one of those insane constructions where everyone is equal.

21:47:57 mircea_popescu: ie, how to run a socialist state.

21:47:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: them.

21:48:10 davout: asciilifeform: pardon my ignorance, but who is mr spam?

21:48:13 mircea_popescu: and yes, a socialist state can only be run as a prison or as an insane asylum. because socialism is insanity.

21:48:19 Adlai: davout: ninjashogun

21:48:29 davout: !s ninjashogun

21:48:30 assbot: 1761 results for 'ninjashogun' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ninjashogun

21:48:35 davout: wow

21:48:37 asciilifeform: davout: i call him 'mr. spam' because he changed alias with some regularity. and promised to return one day under a yet-new one.

21:48:40 Adlai: spam indeed

21:48:49 davout: that's a high amount of ninjashogun

21:48:58 davout: asciilifeform: ic, ty

21:49:14 mircea_popescu: jurov: now i have 40/40 , but back when i had 10mbit uplink, bitcoind sometimes saturated it << this is an universal experience.

21:49:17 asciilifeform: davout: he's become a kind of proverbial example here, of certain kinds of behaviour

21:49:18 BingoBoingo: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/topics/security/cpujan2015-1972971.html

21:49:20 assbot: Oracle Critical Patch Update - January 2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI8rmj )

21:49:29 mircea_popescu: i have what the dorks refer to "Fat pipes" on a number of nodes and they still get saturated on occasion.

21:49:36 BingoBoingo: !up weex_

21:49:36 Adlai: my main problem with "mr spam" was the high stock he placed in ideas

21:49:42 Adlai: ideas are worthless, execution is what matters

21:50:01 mircea_popescu: Adlai some ideas are more worthless than others.

21:50:02 kakobrekla: shut up my idea does not require execution

21:50:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: packet shaping is a glorious thing.

21:50:23 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: one of the reasons i took the sweat to set up a civilized routing stack at home

21:50:31 Adlai: yes, but keeping an idea secret doesn't prevent somebody else from executing it better than you, while you sit around trying to get people to invest in something you haven't explained to them

21:50:42 BingoBoingo: alf handcarves exquisite reliefs as he shapes traffic

21:50:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it just has to do with, if a bunch of nodes wake up and find you...

21:52:13 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: find you and what? they get to eat out of a fixed trough, no faster than they are fed.

21:52:26 Adlai: mircea_popescu: eta on D.CTIP?

21:52:33 Adlai: they require you to price withdrawals in dollars

21:52:36 mircea_popescu: which is d.ctip ?

21:52:39 Adlai: this is retardation to a new level

21:52:41 Adlai: changetip

21:52:44 mircea_popescu: ...

21:52:50 mircea_popescu: how is that worth anything ?

21:52:57 Adlai: i have no clue

21:53:04 mircea_popescu: so then eta is clue / 0

21:53:09 Adlai: but when you withdraw bitcoin, on the bitcoin network, you have to specify the amount in dollars

21:53:10 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Believe it or not it got a VC round, raised money

21:53:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75500 @ 0.00050243 = 37.9335 BTC [+] {2}

21:53:36 thestringpuller: 2 times

21:53:39 thestringpuller: lol

21:53:43 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: http://qntra.net/2014/12/changetip-raises-3-5-million-lead-by-pantera-capital/

21:53:44 assbot: ChangeTip Raises $3.5 Million Lead by Pantera Capital | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1xzQjXd )

21:53:52 thestringpuller: first round was 750k

21:54:19 asciilifeform: https://panteracapital.com/about

21:54:20 assbot: About | Pantera Capital - Bitcoin Investment Firm ... ( http://bit.ly/1xzQsKp )

21:54:24 asciilifeform: ^ sc4mz0r zoo

21:54:49 *: mircea_popescu shrugs.

21:55:21 kakobrekla: ah yes they plunked 10mio to buttstamp.

21:55:24 mircea_popescu: at this point listing them on mpex should yield what, 25% of equity. because it'd definitely increase their market value by that much.

21:55:26 Adlai: it's just baffling how people invest in this

21:55:35 asciilifeform: incidentally, there was a time when usg did the 'strategic vc' thing more or less above-board. see 'in-q-tel.'

21:55:44 asciilifeform: still a going concern, iirc

21:55:52 BingoBoingo: Wait, Buttstamp isn't even 3 full changetips?

21:57:15 Adlai: a penny pushing social media spamhaus with no business plan is almost half an exchange?

21:57:35 asciilifeform: 'changetip,' as i understand, answers two usg desires: 1) injection of tard armies into bitcoin, fodder for gavinization 2) the old, tired 'let's put some names/faces/palmprints/arsebook histories on as many btc addrs as we can'

21:58:00 mircea_popescu: Adlai the exchange has no margin in an indefensible market and makes no money.

21:58:07 diametric: nubbins`: so i'm being led to believe you can produce wood t-shirts for me now, hand carved no less.

21:58:09 mircea_popescu: so yes, 0 is ~= half a 0.

21:58:17 Adlai: lol

21:58:20 mircea_popescu: diametric witnessed.

21:58:44 asciilifeform: wooden t-shirts << ru slang, 'wooden mackintosh', coffin

21:58:54 diametric: ha really?

21:58:58 asciilifeform: aha.

21:59:05 BingoBoingo: !up Lolugal

21:59:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam"

21:59:15 Lolugal: hello

21:59:20 mircea_popescu: pseudoarguments of the attorney ilk.

21:59:22 BingoBoingo: Hello Lolugal

22:00:24 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam" << Reasons to never use a public Electrum server for people wondering about "Lite" wallets.

22:00:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it goes very well with the usg approach to target selection. which is the 'texas sharpshooter' algorithm.

22:00:47 mircea_popescu: reason to not "drive adoption" to idiots / poor people / etc.

22:00:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah.

22:01:57 asciilifeform: !s cocaine toilet

22:01:58 assbot: 5 results for 'cocaine toilet' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cocaine+toilet

22:01:59 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? << they did all sorts of things for "the community" to be able to use their own stuff, which the community isn't doing because... well i guess more because lazy and stupid, but hey.

22:03:03 mircea_popescu: 1800 lines day's not even done ;/

22:03:06 mircea_popescu: guyse!

22:03:14 Adlai: you missed gavin!

22:03:15 *: Adlai did too

22:03:23 ben_vulpes: <BingoBoingo> thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC << i thought it was a promise to pay in btc, the paper for which ESPN liquidated immediately

22:03:27 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 4260 @ 0.00080694 = 3.4376 BTC [+] {9}

22:03:35 mircea_popescu: yeah derp claimed he can't come because he's got a lunch engagement, then found out that so do i so he suddenly could.

22:03:38 *: Adlai is impressed that gavin showed up here, but also a little puzzled - did anybody think anybody else's opinion would change?

22:03:47 mircea_popescu: not a matter of opinions.

22:03:49 ben_vulpes: it's allll part of the act.

22:03:58 BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Why do you have to highlight the shortcut that was almost certainly taken

22:03:59 ben_vulpes: he has to show. has to "try to talk sense into -assets"

22:04:03 Adlai: my new favorite word, after btcmiami, is "signaling"

22:04:08 mircea_popescu: guy saw an opportunity to check off thisparticular thing without actually doing it, and took it.

22:04:19 BingoBoingo: Adlai: What is "signaling"

22:04:23 mircea_popescu: it speaks volumes as to his own perceived value of his own "opinions" which he doesn;'t actually hold.

22:04:28 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3590 @ 0.00082 = 2.9438 BTC [+]

22:04:37 mircea_popescu: however, it only speaks volumes to those capable to listen.

22:04:54 Adlai: BingoBoingo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory

22:04:56 assbot: Signalling theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI9kuZ )

22:05:11 mircea_popescu: that was a fad 20 years ago too.

22:05:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see also 'stotting'

22:05:25 asciilifeform: (from your own article)

22:05:33 mircea_popescu: yeh

22:05:37 Adlai: btcmiami was all a huge signal: "look at us, we're so successful, we can sponsor all of this!"

22:05:46 Adlai: "come make us able to sponsor the next one too!("

22:05:58 asciilifeform: jumping up and down, to show that your legs work, is an example of what zoologists called 'honest signal'

22:06:15 mircea_popescu: Adlai so was that cyprus fiasco.

22:06:24 mircea_popescu: "we're so smart, we even got the dean of the cyprus uni to come!"

22:06:34 mircea_popescu: now that guy doesn't know how to erase his name from the mess.

22:06:52 mircea_popescu: exact same thing, in this exact same chan, three years ago. nefario was all "oh, we're so smart we got stallman to come"

22:07:00 mircea_popescu: dub actually was there iirc

22:07:16 ben_vulpes: pronking?

22:07:18 ben_vulpes: sporking?

22:07:20 ben_vulpes: dorking?

22:07:22 ben_vulpes: honking?

22:07:27 ben_vulpes: i can never remember this word.

22:07:29 mircea_popescu: ne1 else recall the glbse conference where nefario explained all about how he's immune to stuff two weeks before closing down ?

22:07:36 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes stotting ?

22:07:42 ben_vulpes: sotting, yeah.

22:08:08 Naphex: ben_vulpes: heard you got ignored by gavin for distracting him ;)

22:08:10 asciilifeform: lol, what did stallman say ?

22:08:19 asciilifeform: (and was it signed ?)

22:08:29 ben_vulpes: Naphex: distracting << lol. not pandering, do you mean?

22:08:37 ben_vulpes: asking questions faster than his tiny brain and crippled fingers can keep up?

22:08:38 BingoBoingo: The video and Nefario rambling is somewhere

22:08:52 Naphex: hehe

22:08:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he was physically there.

22:08:59 mircea_popescu: lemme find the thing brb

22:10:13 ben_vulpes: http://object-files.shithouse.tv/

22:10:14 assbot: object-files ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI9zGv )

22:11:29 BingoBoingo: fraudsters movie night http://fraudsters.com/2012/fear-and-loathing-in-your-mother/

22:11:30 assbot: Fear and Loathing in Your Mother pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yI9GBZ )

22:12:23 Adlai: more like "must read"

22:12:26 Adlai: although i guess that's another one of the lost arts

22:13:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00050299 = 19.7675 BTC [+] {2}

22:14:50 mircea_popescu: ;;seen nefario

22:14:50 gribble: nefario was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 years, 17 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <nefario> Those assets are not listed or traded anymore

22:15:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6489 @ 0.00050313 = 3.2648 BTC [+]

22:16:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://pastebin.com/aLENimd7 << there you go, pretty much complete guy's last week.

22:16:25 assbot: Sep 15 02:16:04 <nefario> oh man Sep 15 02:16:06 <nefario> so tired Sep 15 02: - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1xzW5rR )

22:17:11 BingoBoingo: Ah looking for that video link I ran into this classic on the only Bitcoin adoption that matters http://fraudsters.com/2012/bribes-in-bitcoins/

22:17:12 assbot: Bribes in Bitcoins pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1xzWiLC )

22:17:51 mircea_popescu: mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them". << quite a weak point.

22:18:14 mircea_popescu: mpex is not regulated by the nyse, or in general by the us. expectations to the contrary will result in bruised expectators.

22:20:21 mircea_popescu: that'd be yet another difference between me and (bpay / coinbase / derp.* etc) : not only i make money and they make burn rate, but when i speak i speak from atop a position of significant power. they speak out of their ass, pretty much,not having an iota of actual influence either way.

22:20:36 mircea_popescu: which is fundamentally why they gotta keep quiet, for that matter.

22:21:41 BingoBoingo: !up STRML

22:21:57 mircea_popescu: STRML you're not using your cloak correctly youknow. we can see your ip.

22:22:13 ben_vulpes: *gasp*

22:22:16 ben_vulpes: your IP is showing!

22:22:19 ben_vulpes: SHAME

22:22:20 mircea_popescu: lol

22:22:23 mircea_popescu: nipples!

22:22:26 ben_vulpes: nudity!

22:22:28 mod6: *zip*

22:22:35 ben_vulpes: feel bad about your toolchain

22:22:39 ben_vulpes: and body, while you're at it

22:22:41 mircea_popescu: anyway, i figure if someone goes to the trouble of getting a cloak they prolly care about it.

22:22:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80314 @ 0.00050319 = 40.4132 BTC [+] {2}

22:23:10 BingoBoingo: http://fraudsters.com/2012/bitcoin-wittgenstein-assets/

22:23:10 assbot: #bitcoin-wittgenstein-assets pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yIaeHS )

22:23:28 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Earlier he said his bouncer was getting DoS...

22:23:49 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo re that post, lemme tell you how flattened i was by davout using "posteriority" :D

22:24:06 BingoBoingo: And yet Davout survives

22:24:19 davout: what

22:25:32 mircea_popescu: davout apparently i misread ?

22:25:56 mircea_popescu: le suck.

22:26:15 davout: posteriority, assness

22:26:52 mircea_popescu: you know, posterity ?

22:27:17 davout: yes

22:27:32 davout: postérieur in french also means butt

22:27:54 mircea_popescu: yup

22:28:49 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot << this is true, and has been for a while. pgp keyservers like the weakest link in the assets system currently.

22:28:59 mircea_popescu: incredible what ends up imported into our house ;/

22:30:00 mats: guess we'll have to run a keyserver now.

22:30:21 mircea_popescu: eventually yeah

22:30:23 mats: themes of #b-a: rebuild EVERYTHING

22:30:31 mircea_popescu: kinda hoping that the by-default gossipd keystore system may be enough

22:31:07 BingoBoingo: Oh a qntra submission to /. got accepted, but in linksnipped form, Instead of the qntra story they link spamm-mysanantonio.com which isn't even remotely local to the fucking arrest!

22:31:33 mircea_popescu: for shame.

22:31:37 mircea_popescu: point it out in comemnts.

22:31:55 kakobrekla: mats pretty much, and given the number of able people here, it will never get done

22:32:03 mircea_popescu: a) It's not nice to snip the source link - if you thought the guy;s work is good enough to use, think the guy is good enough to credit ;

22:32:12 mircea_popescu: b) the spammy link you replaced it with isn't even local. or useful.

22:32:26 mircea_popescu: statist pesimist!!

22:33:30 kakobrekla: me? im a realist, thats why im pessimistic.

22:34:27 mircea_popescu: kinda funny how "statist " is slowly becoming a cry de guerre.

22:35:04 mircea_popescu: anyway, ftr, there's nothing at all in this gavin thing. so he came in, derped about nothing in particular, found his way out. at least a dozen random noobs/spammers performed just as well.

22:35:08 BingoBoingo: http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=6783079&cid=48870089

22:35:09 assbot: Silk Road 2.0 Deputy Arrested - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/1yIaQNK )

22:35:30 mircea_popescu: !rate felipelalli -1 has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk.

22:35:30 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6fdd3a9db37207a4

22:35:53 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.felipelalli.-1:ce71215acbced2ee28e23af75dd7b767e6314f260038f4c916a1aa81cb263c6e

22:35:53 assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk.

22:36:46 BingoBoingo: !v assbot:BingoBoingo.unrate.felipelalli:a27e904686bb93b6243af0b032d1e4e7c383eb1d052a8ad3e800080a8a0085c2

22:36:46 assbot: Successfully unrated felipelalli

22:38:09 mircea_popescu: uh this log. so yesterday^H^H^H^ earlier today ben_vulpes is all like "god i love you guys". then i get all "wtf is this derp thinking, giving usgavin room to pretend for ?" and next line in log, sure enough...

22:38:12 mats: brutal

22:38:25 mircea_popescu: clearly idiots seldom differ.

22:39:58 *: mircea_popescu waves at Pierre_Rochard

22:40:27 *: Pierre_Rochard waves back

22:41:08 BingoBoingo: Oh, and CoinDesk finally got to a story on the arrest, but they instead cover the FBI Press Release.

22:41:12 mircea_popescu: I don?t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont? see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable) << this is particularly fucking stupid

22:41:21 BingoBoingo: "The arrest of Mr. Farrell is proof that federal law enforcement continues its efforts to root out those who subvert the Internet to set up black markets for illegal goods." << STFU

22:41:26 mircea_popescu: it was discussed earlier with jurov, but of course noobs don't read logs.

22:43:43 Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: I was interested in hearing gavin defend tx fee elasticity, not much else

22:44:21 Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: because I think the tx fee is inelastic to the point that it’s doubtful the limit will ever be raised

22:44:34 mircea_popescu: this is in fact a very complex issue.

22:44:43 mircea_popescu: i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it

22:45:11 mircea_popescu: (discounting, of course, frustrated nobodies a la adam back, who are so cocksure they imagine they invented clorophorm)

22:45:43 asciilifeform: i, for one, would rather like to see the machine-gun taken away from the baby, and only then contemplate military strategy

22:45:47 Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: I agree, the only model is what actually ends up happening. I think the miners will get a taste for that inelasticity and jealously defend it. I think Gavin & co fear that more than anything else

22:45:53 mircea_popescu: to some degree the demand for gold was elastic, and this is trivially proven by the fact that while industrial revolution europe used gold, china opf the time used silver.

22:46:02 mircea_popescu: so there DOES exist some elasticity in the monetary good.

22:46:10 mircea_popescu: now, how exactly it works... fouquet knows.

22:46:16 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, maybe he accidentally invented it cleaning. I mean bleach disinfects and ETOH disinfects. Maybe he really wanted to get his piss dribblings off of the bathroom tile?

22:46:26 mircea_popescu: surely.

22:46:49 Pierre_Rochard: gold and silver are much, much closer substitutes than bitcoin and, say, litecoin or coinbase.

22:47:05 mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard you know, the "say the word, nodes ready, miners ready within a recompile" messages i got so far and that keep piling in...

22:47:11 mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of some distant future.

22:47:37 mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard for each other you mean ?

22:47:52 mircea_popescu: surely. and for that matter piss-poor models for bitcoin. that example is easily more misleading than useful.

22:48:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this re: the merge-mining thing ?

22:48:07 mircea_popescu: but in point of fact the "monetary pholgiston" so to call the idealised thing is very poorly understood.

22:48:11 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1382 @ 0.00084935 = 1.1738 BTC [+] {5}

22:48:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes.

22:48:39 danielpbarron: !rate gavinandresen -5 okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.

22:48:39 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/b12856e52ed5e601

22:49:12 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00085 = 2.125 BTC [+]

22:49:15 mircea_popescu: lol. "k guise, i guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion about this here wide screen tv i stole from your place"

22:49:27 STRML: thanks. never had a need for a cloak before but since somebody here ddos'd my bouncer I figure it's a good idea

22:49:29 mircea_popescu: i think gavin will make a fortune in gangsta rap

22:49:43 mircea_popescu: STRML it is, but you gotta apply it first.

22:50:36 STRML: Yeah. Will have to configure on the bouncer. Thanks for the headsup

22:51:03 danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.gavinandresen.-5:88e38a0d3bacd012bbf85a347fd6114b79fbbf53301867d2bb5ecfc3aea36d67

22:51:03 assbot: Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.

22:52:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: this gets old, it does. << quite old.

22:53:03 mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity?? << because, the argument goes, they're so farsighted into the future, this children of the paycheck loan, these african seasonal hunters, that the POTENTIAL of it costing maybe more tomorrow perhaps is inhibiting them.

22:53:03 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

22:53:19 mircea_popescu: like you know, if bread in your african village is 5 dollars a loaf, and there's cake at 2 cents, you won't buy any cake.

22:53:35 mircea_popescu: becase IT IS POSSIBLE that in YEARS!!!! it may go as high as i dunno, 5cents ? a whole quarter ?

22:54:14 mircea_popescu: so you're spending 100 cakes per loaf of bread instead. because this is "economics" as understood by "expert economists" : oleg andreev, gavin assassinsen, that nytimes thoctchke what's his name

22:54:18 mircea_popescu: paul kruger

22:54:19 mircea_popescu: and so on.

22:56:51 asciilifeform: !rate gavinandresen -1 with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'

22:56:51 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/e4aaf8d13f6ba47e

22:56:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz. << in economics, substitute is a functional substitute not a logical substitute. in this sense, your feet are a substitute for a train.

22:57:30 asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.gavinandresen.-1:4b3f2513a1f08c4238511a84a1561981b97b4070e6ed35638c5ac133dbfeff10

22:57:30 assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for gavinandresen with note: with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'

22:57:41 mircea_popescu: an usg education is an economic substitute of an actual education, and margerine is an economic substitute for butter.

22:58:54 xanthyos: is the price of bitcoin moving up today a response to gavin being dissed in assets?

22:59:04 asciilifeform: and, i suppose, vacuum is a substitute for air. for a spell, anyway.

22:59:10 mircea_popescu: price answers no one.

22:59:10 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

22:59:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you got it.

22:59:23 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 227.97, vol: 21464.50503247 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 224.003, vol: 16571.37793 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 228.92, vol: 52253.10725355 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 229.5, vol: 17.07242792 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 226.822356, vol: 158884.46680000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 224.485, vol: 47.35145823 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 220.704000383, vol: 131.15571843 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message)

23:00:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know that scammer creativity analysis actually sounds very like soviet police doctrine, on meditation. didja get it out of some book ?

23:00:56 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's straight out of my arse.

23:01:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: spur of the moment.

23:01:03 Adlai: is the asswot online yet? as in, visible from the www?

23:01:08 mircea_popescu: i guess we can say you're a russian thinker.

23:01:15 *: asciilifeform guilty as charged

23:01:26 mircea_popescu: Adlai there are jsons. i am thinking about putting a job up for site-ification of those outputs.

23:01:42 kakobrekla: not only jsons

23:01:52 mircea_popescu: oh ?

23:01:54 kakobrekla: !gettrust assbot

23:01:56 assbot: Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user assbot: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 11 via 6 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/kakobrekla/assbot | http://w.b-a.link/user/assbot

23:02:08 kakobrekla: is this not a web page online: http://w.b-a.link/user/assbot

23:02:09 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1yIdxik )

23:02:19 davout: kakobrekla: scam

23:02:22 kakobrekla: (and its not json, json is with /json/)

23:02:22 mircea_popescu: but...trhey are jsons ?

23:02:23 Adlai: kakobrekla: had you waited a moment, you could've earned a pretty penny!

23:02:35 Adlai: oh but yes this is jsons

23:02:36 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: perfectly fine www page.

23:02:54 kakobrekla: ok

23:02:57 mircea_popescu: i am not disputing it is a webpage!

23:02:59 davout: kakobrekla: this looks like a dump of a php array, sort if dictionary, or maybe an array, depending on the amounts of "="

23:03:12 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: looks great straight from 'curl'.

23:03:17 mircea_popescu: that it does.

23:03:18 asciilifeform: as www pages ought to.

23:03:22 mircea_popescu: curl, however, does not count as "web"

23:03:28 asciilifeform: ditto in 'emacs'.

23:03:30 *: Adlai isn't sure what to make of this, but it's good enough for him

23:03:34 asciilifeform: sureitdoes.

23:03:40 davout: it can't be a web page, it has no google analytics

23:03:54 mircea_popescu: hory shit it's going to be th ecase nobody actually wants a PROPER web page ?!

23:04:09 kakobrekla: anyway, if you want a neater interface, add /json/ on end of url , decode and voila

23:04:26 mircea_popescu: where are the retarded bois going to mix cvasi azure with moss green and gold!

23:04:39 davout: !up STRML

23:04:44 BingoBoingo: davout: Qntra doesn't have google anal-y-tics either

23:04:48 mircea_popescu: STRML now it worked right

23:04:56 STRML: Great

23:04:58 STRML: SASL is the key there

23:05:05 mircea_popescu: one of yes

23:05:57 mats: anyone have an idea wut filesystem i should use with a SSD?

23:06:02 davout: BingoBoingo: i am disappoint

23:06:14 mircea_popescu: mats whatever your os likes ?

23:06:54 asciilifeform: mats: depends, do you intend to write to it ?

23:06:59 mats: i have read that many filesystems have behavior that is unkind to to writes

23:07:03 mats: yes

23:07:11 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: i can't spot *every* scam << o wow, do we get the sad, blood splattered, tear imbibed story of it ?

23:07:16 asciilifeform: mats: often ?

23:07:24 BingoBoingo: davout: We do quantcast instead so everyone can see our anals https://www.quantcast.com/qntra.net

23:07:25 assbot: Qntra.net Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast ... ( http://bit.ly/1G33Fky )

23:07:37 mats: nah, just a dev machine

23:07:54 BingoBoingo: mats: Anything wrong with UFS?

23:08:10 mircea_popescu: it's not likely to make a difference mats. hdds are hceap enough.

23:08:41 asciilifeform: mats: each block (extant eeproms often have block sizes of 4k) can be erased/written 10-100,000 times.

23:08:55 asciilifeform: mats: the newer/denser the eeprom, the fewer.

23:08:57 mats: mmkay. idk anything about filesystems besides what i read in "Practical Filesystem Design"

23:09:01 BingoBoingo: lulz https://twitter.com/ErrataRob/status/558037792568410112

23:09:03 assbot: Today in Silk Road proceedings, prosecution showed that the Dread Pirate Roberts private PGP key was saved on Ulbricht's computer.

23:09:04 davout: BingoBoingo: is that a different flavour of the same thing or is that fundamentally different?

23:09:12 asciilifeform: mats: there is generally a 'write-levelling' microcontroller in there, that tries to 'spread the pain'

23:09:16 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo that's pretty decent proof.

23:09:49 asciilifeform: mats: it generally is not aware of filesystem, but only of zero/nonzero blocks.

23:10:13 BingoBoingo: davout: This one differs in quantcast showing EVERYONE the visitors who happen to load quantcast junk while visiting your page

23:10:23 mircea_popescu: ahahaha wait, wait. so gavin actually sprouted the ninjashogun line re b-a "conversation quality" ?!

23:10:28 mircea_popescu: gawds have mercy.

23:10:35 mircea_popescu: why must everything be so funny ?

23:10:39 asciilifeform: mats: the only reliable heuristic i know of is that a large proportion of null blocks will prolong, somewhat, the life of the device

23:10:39 STRML: generally you don't have to worry about running out of writes on most modern SSDs

23:10:57 asciilifeform: STRML: horseshit

23:10:59 STRML: so long are you're not running TLC NAND you're fine for a good long time, and even if you are, a pretty reasonable amount of time under most loads

23:11:19 STRML: not horseshit, for typical consumer use it's fine. For long-term data storage or server use, it's not

23:11:29 STRML: which is why they sell server SSDs for a higher price.

23:11:44 mats: asciilifeform: right. people more technically proficient than i have suggested 'btrfs' instead of ext4, but i suppose SSDs will drop in price quickly enough for me to not care

23:11:48 undata: "This drive rated to over 10000 Facebook page loads!"

23:12:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xez2n371MTo

23:12:05 assbot: The Bottle Deposit - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yIeSWp )

23:12:18 kakobrekla: cosumer grade ssd. .. the controller will die first.

23:13:24 STRML: Best way to prolong SSD life is to keep a decent amount of free space on it so TRIM can work its magic

23:13:54 STRML: also helps if can afford to turn off swap, and turn off hibernate.

23:14:02 BingoBoingo: mats: From what I've read on btrfs it seems to be mostly a multi drive arrangement beast that apes at being ZFS while failing on more edge cases

23:14:41 mircea_popescu: no, srsly, kakobrekla has it. i've seen more controller failures than anything. actually out of cycles deaths are so rare i don't recall one.

23:14:54 mircea_popescu: shitty turdware in the chip more likely to be the culprit in any case.

23:15:52 mats: ic

23:16:09 *: mats dials up swap to 8gb

23:16:10 mircea_popescu: and by the time it's out of cycles, that drive has seen petabytes worth of traffic. the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over

23:20:09 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: contains "fix issue" buttons << lol this sounds like early chinese factory automation

23:26:44 mircea_popescu: davout: MAH HARICUT IS SIKRIT BZNS << honestly i had no idea it's a haircut. i had imagined it's simply whatever's left once the neighbours are done cutting their hedges.

23:27:35 davout: har

23:28:02 mircea_popescu: :p

23:29:17 mircea_popescu: davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining << quite

23:29:47 mircea_popescu: and that doesn't actually even begin to address the (unrelated) problem with "infinite blocks", which is market destruction out and out.

23:30:22 mircea_popescu: somehow the idea that you can get "just as good food and service" no matter how cheap a restaurant meal gets, like say a cent, or 1/1000th of a cent, is directly stupid to people.

23:31:09 mircea_popescu: but the notion that mining will still work no matter how badly the incentive structure gets ruined, because somehow mining is a god given gift / universal service obligation of nature to man doesn't.

23:31:32 davout: yes

23:32:01 asciilifeform: the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over << lol, wai, wat ???

23:32:10 asciilifeform: if it all comes from the net - sure

23:32:14 mircea_popescu: guess what : mining is a marginal business as it is, and exactly the problems that ruined the western textile industry in your parent's lifetime can and will, if given a chance, ruin bitconi.,

23:32:21 davout: i think the idea of a one time bump of the block-size limit is actually much less braindamaged than the perpetual increase approach or infinite size that are pure folly

23:32:25 asciilifeform: if you're folding proteins - not so much

23:32:30 mircea_popescu: in point of fact, the industrial revolution was started by, and driven by, the textile industry.

23:32:51 mircea_popescu: anyone that's not read buffett's post mortem on that venture, once "block size was removed", really has no business participating in this conversation.

23:33:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform true true.

23:33:19 jurov: mats and avoid trim mount option, run fstrim every day or so instead

23:33:44 mircea_popescu: davout it's really a very complex problem, "what to do".

23:34:23 mats: jurov: ok thanks, will look into it

23:34:35 mircea_popescu: obviously, a scenario where block congestion is a real problem may be constructed. it may even, in principle happen.

23:34:41 davout: mircea_popescu: when in doubt, make a ruby framework

23:35:17 mircea_popescu: but in this sense, a scenario where gavin has gay sex with midgets can also be constructed. so let's put him in prison for it,

23:35:23 mircea_popescu: because maybe it's against the law.

23:36:18 mircea_popescu: davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy << i knew there was a reason i liked you!

23:37:29 mats: anyone has warez of letters to shareholders 65-77?

23:39:22 mircea_popescu: there was that site had the lot of em

23:43:08 mircea_popescu: mats oh i see what you mean o.O

23:45:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00049947 = 14.0851 BTC [-]

23:45:56 mircea_popescu: http://www.wikihow.com/Contact-Warren-Buffett << this is like the lulziest shit ever

23:45:58 assbot: 4 Ways to Contact Warren Buffett - wikiHow ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gxyba7 )

23:46:10 mircea_popescu: "how to survive as a moron : wikihow!"

23:49:12 mircea_popescu: "<gavinandresen> My point is the point of Bitcoin is I can make a transaction to anybody in the world" << uhh.... if this is the point of bitcoin then bitcoin has at all points been so far offpoint it's a wonder it's still here.

23:49:21 mircea_popescu: this is r/buttcoin/ level understanding of bitcoin, for srs.

23:51:04 jurov: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2t4ml5/i_live_in_russia_my_family_is_in_us_heres_our/ << related. also highlighted on r/buttcoin

23:51:08 assbot: I live in Russia & my family is in U.S. here's our experience using Bitcoin for remittance. : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gxzu93 )

23:53:51 jurov: i start grasping asciilifeform's problems with btc, too

23:53:56 mircea_popescu: jurov for what it's worth, here's my experience with bitcoin remittances : i sent btc to otc correspondents, ordered wires sent out to the hk account of my local agent, who has paid me dollars, in cash, in argentina. the entire process took less than what it takes to get a letter of credit, and significantly less than what international trade normally settles in.

23:54:11 mircea_popescu: i could, if i were so inclined, finance a nuclear programme or pay for some murders in this manner.

23:54:37 mircea_popescu: and exactly nobody would ever know, exactly how the foregoing episode is known specifically and exclusively because i chose to share it.

23:54:50 jurov: i gather if alf received such wires, they'd ship him straight to azkaban

23:54:51 mircea_popescu: so, spare me the reddit nonsense. bitcoin, money, and good stuff aren't for poor people.

23:54:55 asciilifeform: jurov: to be fair, the 'problems' i have all stem from the fact of being paid, and having expenses in, fiat.

23:55:21 asciilifeform: jurov: and not merely any fiat, but electronic, 'banked' bezzlars.

23:56:13 asciilifeform: jurov: nothing keeps me from receiving or sending wires, but anything that goes in - is insta-taxable

23:56:22 mircea_popescu: that said, remittances in the us are a total nightmare, because a) the us is principally insane and b) the entrenched interests of current processors work against the customers.

23:56:33 asciilifeform: jurov: and, if above a certain amount (in or out) 'nice folks' will arrive with pointed questions.

23:56:42 mircea_popescu: so for people needing a hundred bucks moved, it's hell on earth.

23:56:58 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: pay for your drugs with cash :P

23:57:05 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: cash found where?

23:57:16 mircea_popescu: What are more safe alternatives in U.S. to fix our problem? (We can't afford losing our last $50) << this.

23:57:23 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: may as well become counterfeiter if doing dope ?

23:57:24 thestringpuller: slowly take out x cash of bank every week

23:57:29 thestringpuller: until you have stack of benji's

23:57:31 mircea_popescu: people whose budget is $50 have NO BUSINESS trying to maintain trading networks that span continents.

23:57:33 mircea_popescu: they just don't.

23:58:36 mircea_popescu: wtf is this, derpy guy going to hansa agent in riga cca 1315, "hello this is my very valuable small river rock, how can i send it to london ???"

23:59:02 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: you remind me of a legend, possibly soviet, regarding a fellow who took a part home from the factory every day for half a century, built airplane.

23:59:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a johny cash song

23:59:32 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIuo0KIqD_E

23:59:34 assbot: johnny cash-one piece at a time - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1wpgKxq )