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Transcript for 21-03-2015, 1991 lines:

00:00:04 asciilifeform: but yet again this sentence is an abuse of word.

00:01:13 asciilifeform: re: teleporter: there were actually people who refused to travel on steam locomotives because the soul can't keep up and will get lost

00:01:15 asciilifeform: or somesuch

00:01:36 asciilifeform: for some reason you don't meet terribly many folks today who won't ride, e.g., an airplane, for this reason

00:01:44 asciilifeform: even among the devoutly religious

00:01:52 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 164 @ 0.0145 = 2.378 BTC [+]

00:02:03 nubbins`: except the guys w/ the plastic bags

00:02:15 Adlai: the meaning of 'me' which is consistent in this system is: "the thing which you perceive yourself as communicating with"

00:02:15 asciilifeform: wai wat

00:02:23 trinque: times in the past I have had cluster headaches

00:02:40 trinque: caused by various head injuries over the years

00:02:56 trinque: in the midst of that level of pain no one ever questions where he begins and where he ends

00:03:10 trinque: stab the clone and nothing *here* happens

00:03:13 trinque: who cares about the clone

00:03:33 asciilifeform: trinque: you're 'dividing by zero' just by thinking about this

00:03:38 asciilifeform: just as the rest of us do.

00:03:38 nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/3GHvrdn.jpg

00:03:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HbMTiV )

00:03:53 trinque: nubbins`: lol

00:03:55 asciilifeform: nubbins`: what is pictured here ?

00:04:10 asciilifeform: contagious patient ?

00:04:13 Adlai: orthodox jew in a fullbody condom

00:04:32 asciilifeform: l0l

00:04:40 asciilifeform: Adlai: what is the logic behind the condom ?

00:04:40 Adlai: probably to prevent physical contact with female flight attendants

00:04:41 nubbins`: asciilifeform apparently some hasidic jews feel they are not permitted to fly over cemeteries

00:04:53 jurov: i'd fuck myself. we'd only have to resort to reading /dev/random about who goes first.

00:04:53 nubbins`: the airport in tel aviv is surrounded by cemeteries

00:04:58 asciilifeform: but the plastic in the fuselage is not sufficient barrier ?

00:05:07 trinque: the bag was blessed maybe

00:05:10 nubbins`: this man is -- no joke -- protecting himself from w/e by completely enclosing himself in a plastic bag.

00:05:18 asciilifeform: why not bless the floor tiles ?

00:05:23 asciilifeform: for the whole lot of passengers

00:05:24 asciilifeform: charge extra

00:05:33 Adlai: there's a sub-race (seriously, they consider themselves a separate tribe-within-the-tribe) who are not allowed to / don't enter cemeteries

00:05:48 asciilifeform: while alive, presumably ?

00:05:57 asciilifeform: who, cohanim ?

00:05:58 nubbins`: yes

00:06:01 Adlai: yes. in the idf, when we had guided tours of mt hertzl (big military cemetary), they always asked before entering if there were any of them present

00:06:09 Adlai: lest one accidentally trespass

00:06:16 nubbins`: "Kohenim are prohibited from coming into contact with dead bodies, and many rabbis have taken the strict opinion that a Kohen may not ride in a plane if he knows ahead of time that it will fly directly over a Jewish cemetery."

00:06:36 asciilifeform: is it considered a score against the cemetary, or the kohen ?

00:06:36 trinque: ultimate trolls, whoever thinks up these rules

00:06:45 *: Adlai actually thought the officer was kidding, the first time this happened

00:06:51 nubbins`: "The man wrapped in plastic, whose photograph first appeared on the Redditor site and later on the Gothamist site, apparently did not want to take any chances. By covering himself in plastic, he established a separation between him and impurities."

00:07:00 bitstein: Yea, I remember when I was on my birthright trip, my friend stayed behind when we visited Mt Hertzl.

00:07:01 *: nubbins` rolls eyes

00:07:02 *: trinque heads home, enjoyed the philosophical bullshit session

00:07:03 Adlai: in the case of the army - it would be a terrible failure for the officer to let such a thing happen!

00:07:42 nubbins`: examine the utter failure of logic by this man

00:07:49 nubbins`: srsly, a fucking /plastic bag/.

00:08:00 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i think they grade themselves 'for effort.' consider the rope

00:08:06 nubbins`: asciilifeform precisely this

00:08:13 nubbins`: RCs are no different

00:08:13 asciilifeform: 'eruv' (Adlai: correct transliteration if off)

00:08:21 jurov: i'd ask them, what if there's a cemetery below him in australia?

00:08:43 *: Adlai only has distant secondhand knowledge of orthodox theology

00:08:49 asciilifeform: jurov: follow the logic. they don't care if there is a sea burial going on underneath, or a shipwreck with skeletons

00:08:53 asciilifeform: because 'graded for effort'

00:09:06 asciilifeform: and there isn't really a good effort they could make to demonstrate a desire to avoid those

00:09:44 jurov: dunno if i could resist to troll them with a bone

00:09:56 nubbins`: gl explaining that to security

00:10:02 asciilifeform: !s pig burial

00:10:03 assbot: 3 results for 'pig burial' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pig+burial

00:10:03 Adlai: what i do know is that one guy took cold showers on the sabbath, because if he opened the hot water tap, it might trigger the thermostat in the base's boiler

00:10:33 Adlai: emphasis on "might", didn't help to point out that the boiler basically works 24/7 and still doesn't keep up

00:11:36 nubbins`: which ender's game book was it where they created a race of smart people genetically predisposed to OCD?

00:11:52 Adlai: either xenocide or children of the mind

00:12:05 jurov: good that unlike jooz, we have danielpbarron that knows exactly what the letters say

00:12:06 nubbins`: yeah. reminds me of that in some ways

00:12:10 Adlai: (which were supposed to be one book, but eventually didn't 'fit in head')

00:12:27 nubbins`: i got through about 7 of those books before giving up

00:12:36 *: Adlai just read the first 4. regrets seeing the movie.

00:12:39 nubbins`: just earth geopolitics after a while

00:12:50 Adlai: you know, the ones that actually have a plot

00:12:59 danielpbarron: http://www.atruechurch.info/sabbath.html Those who totally stop every work of their own righteousness (Psalm 16:2; Romans 4:5, "does not work"), and believe on Him who justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5), these are those who fulfill the law (Romans 8:4) and keep a perpetual Sabbath (Hebrews 4:3-4, 9-10).

00:13:00 assbot: A True Church - The Sabbath ... ( http://bit.ly/1HbPrxv )

00:13:09 nubbins`: ender's shadow is nb if you haven't read it

00:13:15 nubbins`: ender's game from bean's pov

00:13:58 Adlai: right. ender's game's plot, with different words. it doesn't have its own plot, and i need a few decades before i can read this author again, after children of the mind

00:15:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41400 @ 0.00029872 = 12.367 BTC [+] {3}

00:15:40 nubbins`: that's sorta the last one i enjoyed

00:16:06 Adlai: children, or shadow?

00:16:12 nubbins`: children of mind

00:16:25 *: Adlai enjoyed it too, but it was just too long

00:16:53 nubbins`: speaker for the dead and xenocide were the height

00:17:09 Adlai: read it back when i had 4-5 hours of daily reading time in middle school

00:17:21 nubbins`: i read an enormous amount of fiction in uni

00:17:29 nubbins`: 1000 pages a week at times

00:17:55 Adlai: extracurricular?

00:18:08 nubbins`: for lels, yeah

00:18:15 nubbins`: not much required reading for a cs/math joint major

00:18:46 nubbins`: did 1 english course (2 req'd for b.sc., did AP english in hs)

00:19:19 nubbins`: 24yo nubs was not impressed w/ having to take 1000-level english course with 18y/o's

00:19:56 nubbins`: skipped 4 consecutive weeks of classes mid-semester, came out w/ an 88 and a letter from the faculty pleading me to change majors

00:26:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00028926 = 1.4174 BTC [-]

00:32:16 asciilifeform: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RlLqY7OJqUAJ:www.lunsfordnet.com/get/pdf/2595+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

00:32:17 assbot: Transition Dreams by Greg Egan "We can't tell you what your own transition dreams will be. The only thing that's certain is ... ( http://bit.ly/1HbTOsz )

00:32:19 asciilifeform: ^ re: brain copies

00:32:26 asciilifeform: w4r3z cache

00:33:14 trinque: excellent story

00:33:19 trinque: I should read more Egan

00:33:35 trinque: luminous is sitting a few feet away

00:35:44 Adlai: nubbins`: 'english' = literature | composition ?

00:36:03 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: you may appreciate this thought. So I like XC running, so I just like to run to work out. At some point it's like your body is heating up like a GPU trying to run a video game (hence sweat). So I've always thought of exercising as our bodies running "tough programs". lol

00:47:38 nubbins`: Adlai a mix of both

00:48:26 nubbins`: thestringpuller have you ever thought of eating a large quantity of muscle meat as running a tough program? 8)

00:49:49 thestringpuller: ^- da pun is strong with you today

00:51:29 jurov: yes, on such meat branch prediction and caching fail all the time

00:58:17 nubbins`: lel

00:58:20 nubbins`: core dump

00:58:31 thestringpuller: on eulora?

01:00:14 nubbins`: more meat program puns

01:00:27 nubbins`: srs tho, takes it outta ya

01:17:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35600 @ 0.0002953 = 10.5127 BTC [+]

01:18:00 mircea_popescu: !up dEBRUYNE

01:19:08 mircea_popescu: http://baexpats.org/topic/33079-wild-cat-in-back-yard/ << misfortunate cat meets insane gringo

01:19:10 assbot: Wild Cat In Back Yard - Expat Life - Buenos Aires Expats Group ... ( http://bit.ly/18OtOYN )

01:21:10 asciilifeform: how even found this.

01:21:54 mircea_popescu: i > google!

01:22:52 *: asciilifeform if had to choose who to render for fat, the animal or the 'man' from the link, would choose the latter without hesitation

01:24:49 mircea_popescu: note that it's not even a wild cat.

01:24:56 mircea_popescu: which would have hopefully killed him.

01:25:07 asciilifeform: aha. we have idiots like this here

01:25:25 asciilifeform: who brutally murder any tame animal unfortunate enough to be let out for a walk

01:25:59 mircea_popescu: "gee, i wonder why the poor cat isn't scaling the wall after being sprayer with permethrin and not being fed for a week"

01:26:20 mircea_popescu: "could a rope and an open can of tuna solve this problem ? naaah, best call the plumber!"

01:29:33 asciilifeform: i would greatly enjoy putting the author of the post in the very similar situation.

01:29:48 asciilifeform: dosage adjusted as necessary.

01:31:08 asciilifeform: and i'm not even a zoophiliac.

01:31:15 mircea_popescu: me either

01:31:28 mircea_popescu: but i guess it's because we're sociopaths, aka, idiot-intolerant.

01:31:41 asciilifeform: but some 'people' really -are- the 'planetary cancer'' imagined by enviro-whiners. as in, the actual core of truth behind the myth.

01:32:06 asciilifeform: as in, there can be very few things more noble than killing them, slowly, and with cameras rolling for posterity.

01:32:07 mircea_popescu: exactly. my objection isn't particularly that the cat got hurt as much as it is the guy didn't.

01:32:41 asciilifeform: the beasts fight one another even without idiot man (i know this well enough from watching the wild cats in own yard)

01:32:50 asciilifeform: though i've yet to find a carcass

01:33:00 asciilifeform: presumably they keel over somewhere else, in a designated place

01:33:19 danielpbarron: where does he move from that doesn't have cats? how did he figure out how to move??

01:34:01 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: in some parts of usa suburbia, animals found wandering outdoors are mercilessly caught and soap van

01:34:02 mircea_popescu: actually i used to know, many years ago, an old, 2/3 tailless , earless, blind tomcat.

01:34:24 mircea_popescu: i guess he was an anarchist cat.

01:34:29 asciilifeform: how does beast with these handicaps stay afloat ?

01:34:32 asciilifeform: was fed ?

01:34:38 mircea_popescu: well i fed it ocasionally.

01:34:42 mircea_popescu: i imagine plenty of people liked it.

01:35:25 mircea_popescu: actually hanbot used to feed chicken livers to this blind dog that had a helper tripod dog (one limb cut off, prolly in tram accident).

01:35:28 mircea_popescu: they made quite the team.

01:35:39 danielpbarron: i got bit by a feral cat and freaked out less than this guy; didn't go to doctor even

01:35:57 asciilifeform: we have a tailless one here, and a very ancient skeletal one, both fed

01:36:31 mircea_popescu: anyway, animals do have all sorts of arrangements.

01:36:41 mircea_popescu: at least in principle. creatures of habit.

01:39:08 *: asciilifeform is experiencing almost a kind of synaesthesia. that post -stinks-, just about literally, of american degeneracy. smells kinda like 'mcdonalds'

01:39:45 nubbins`: the guy sprayed a can of raid in a cat's face?

01:40:06 asciilifeform: nubbins`: cholinesterase inhibitors work on everybody. just different potencies.

01:40:16 nubbins`: is relieving him of his skin before he gets sent to the salt mines an option?

01:40:42 asciilifeform: nubbins`: in the lab i worked at, permethrin was used as a substitute for sarin (the building was not rated for the latter, needs airlocks, etc)

01:41:03 asciilifeform: or not permethrin

01:41:04 asciilifeform: what was it

01:42:44 mircea_popescu: permethrin is this contact insecticide that is well tolerated by mammals,

01:42:47 mircea_popescu: except notably for cats.

01:42:57 mircea_popescu: i was just filling in the gaps, dunno wtf he actually used,

01:43:03 *: asciilifeform forgot precisely what. but leafing through old crap reveals that permethrin is not anticholinergic. so couldn't have been it

01:43:04 mircea_popescu: but in context this'd be a reasonable expectation.

01:44:09 asciilifeform: at any rate, i enjoy the picture that one day the correct gas may be found for the degenerate.

01:45:22 nubbins`: actually yeah permethrin+cats, i remember that one

01:45:27 asciilifeform: a specifically 'civilized' kind of degeneracy on exhibit here

01:45:36 nubbins`: permethrin woulda been great for my hammock when i went to colombia ;/

01:45:59 nubbins`: nod

01:46:05 nubbins`: "a strange happened so i badded it"

01:46:32 asciilifeform: tries to exercise a delusion of control over his environment via the only means he knows how - by smearing his surroundings, and if you let him - entire planets - with his shit

01:47:12 asciilifeform: and having the temerity to whine if a white spot remains

01:51:59 mircea_popescu: <nubbins`> "a strange happened so i badded it" << quite.

01:52:07 mircea_popescu: people go all berserk about milgram experiment.

01:52:24 mircea_popescu: bs. the problem there isn't anything to do with "people". dependent cattle behave outrageously if taken outside of their pens.

01:52:32 mircea_popescu: that's the long and the short of it. has nothing to do with people.

01:52:49 asciilifeform: ^

01:53:02 mircea_popescu: the word for this can be "civilised", but it just as well be "fucking stupid".

01:53:17 mircea_popescu: "o look, the usual crutches i use to hide my idiocy don't work, now it's nude on display".

01:53:23 mircea_popescu: "well... that'd be because you're an idiot."

01:53:29 asciilifeform: civilized.

01:53:37 asciilifeform: is the correct word.

01:53:52 mircea_popescu: we don't agree. slavegirls are civilised.

01:54:00 asciilifeform: then possibly needs word

01:54:01 mircea_popescu: these schmucks are just brainwashed.

01:54:03 mircea_popescu: there IS a difference.

01:54:11 asciilifeform: but it goes as closely with civilization as lead poisoning.

01:54:22 mircea_popescu: so what if it does. tb goes with pallor, we don't call one the other.

01:54:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24400 @ 0.0002943 = 7.1809 BTC [-]

01:55:03 asciilifeform: to rephrase - i'm not certain that anyone knows how to 'civilization' without producing more of this material than anyone knows how to pour into concrete and bury

01:55:14 mircea_popescu: i am quite certain at least someone does.

01:55:26 mircea_popescu: it starts with "you will be beaten daily until you know how this works"

01:55:34 mircea_popescu: as opposed to "this is ~how we use this~."

01:55:40 mircea_popescu: one's civilisational, the other's brainwashing.

01:56:25 asciilifeform: incidentally, notice how english speakers use word 'training' outside of the context of spinal reflex (sport)

01:56:37 asciilifeform: it refers to precisely 'this is how we use'

01:56:59 mircea_popescu: yup.

01:57:13 mircea_popescu: directly anticultural, and through that mediation, civilisation-destroying.

01:58:57 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> tries to exercise a delusion of control over his environment via the only means he knows how - by smearing his surroundings, and if you let him - entire planets - with his shit << this, is, fundamentally, "social media", as the recent maddox link amply explains.

01:59:30 mircea_popescu: or the one before that. or i suppose most of his links.

02:01:09 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/bitbet-history/

02:02:11 asciilifeform: the head of cattle, taught by d3m0cr4cy111!!111!1 that he ought to have some kind of control over his stall, goes apeshit outside.

02:02:20 asciilifeform: because now whole universe 'is' his stall

02:02:30 asciilifeform: but this is a trivial observation.

02:02:34 mircea_popescu: so it is.

02:02:48 asciilifeform: but the less trivial one is that there no such thing as ownerless cattle

02:03:10 mircea_popescu: this is not directl yobvious.

02:03:11 asciilifeform: even an ox wandering loose in mumbai (the locals call'em 'brakes inspectors' on the road) - has owner

02:03:46 asciilifeform: (the crown, who will go after me if i show up with a rifle and a kebeb grill ready to go)

02:04:02 mircea_popescu: that's your owner, not the ox's.

02:04:11 mircea_popescu: you will not be on trial for ox damaging, but for human misbehaving.

02:04:30 asciilifeform: possibly some mix (i can think of a situation where it is precisely about ox damage)

02:04:42 mircea_popescu: similarly in the recently invented "sex tourism" trials, you're not on trial for there bering a fgucked 12yo in thailand, but for there being a usian citizen that had some fun.

02:04:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if it were about ox damage it'd be a fine.

02:05:04 asciilifeform: well there, certainly. but i'd argue that usg implicitly takes ownership of the wild things here

02:05:22 mircea_popescu: only as a result of having taken ownserhip of teh citizenry.

02:05:24 asciilifeform: in that if obamitler wished, he could hunt the last panda, or fuck 12yo thai

02:05:35 mircea_popescu: of course. because he's not a citizen.

02:05:43 mircea_popescu: how did that inept quote go, "citizens ask for permission."

02:05:48 asciilifeform: -subjects-

02:05:59 asciilifeform: it went 'subjects as for permission, citizens something-or-other

02:06:06 mircea_popescu: meanwhile somewhere else, http://40.media.tumblr.com/afd55aa5ad081e1c989b2a34a160cfeb/tumblr_mrn8l7cs7t1rmm9buo1_1280.jpg

02:06:07 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOpnKN )

02:06:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, believe it or not it didn't. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=17-03-2015#1055604

02:06:44 assbot: Logged on 17-03-2015 19:25:54; mircea_popescu: "Citizens ask for permission, expats ask for forgiveness" << maybe he should ask for a nailgun.

02:07:13 asciilifeform: l0l!

02:07:42 mircea_popescu: nubbins` hey, what;d you cost to make qntra business cards for a dozen ppl and ship em ?

02:07:55 mircea_popescu: same design, name/surname, nick, gpg key on one side, qntra this that on the other ?

02:08:56 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060974 << guy does not actually understand anything.

02:08:56 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 22:48:21; trinque: you cannot interact with you

02:08:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61400 @ 0.00028516 = 17.5088 BTC [-] {2}

02:09:21 mircea_popescu: he, superficially, has an autodidact's understanding of the basics. that means they are subtly broken. he then proceeds from there, and errors compound.

02:09:27 mircea_popescu: soon enough he's holding a nonsense.

02:10:20 mircea_popescu: kinda why people go to school : so they can be in the company of their betters (something us kids have serious mental issues with) where they can create this sort of braindamage, be bullied for it, fix it, and so end up sane.

02:11:21 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060984 << penis better. especially if itends up larger.

02:11:21 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 22:51:23; jurov: someone go grow a finger from yudkowski's dna and tell him you have the rest of his clone in cellar

02:13:56 nubbins`: mircea_popescu say 600 bezzlars for a dozen people to get 250 cards each, design + shipping at actual cost

02:14:14 nubbins`: (hand-printed bizniss cards for $50 per head, you say?!)

02:14:48 nubbins`: contrast the economy of scale here to alf's $200 book ;(

02:16:44 mircea_popescu: i can go for that as a qntra perk. you gonna be willing to keep the design and make more of the same if these folks run out / for new folks ?

02:17:11 nubbins`: we index all our graphics & films, totally

02:17:19 mircea_popescu: cool. so submit a nice design.

02:17:46 mircea_popescu: im thinking cazalla bingoboingo thestringpuller danielpbarron right off the bat, cazalla lemme know who else should go in the magic dozen.

02:18:19 nubbins`: any of the above who have particular ideas about how they want their cards to NOT look, best speak up

02:19:11 danielpbarron: i like simple / white background black text sorta thing

02:19:41 mircea_popescu: nubbins` : name/surname ; nick ; gpg/gpg on one face, dunno exactly what should be for qntra on the other.

02:19:48 mircea_popescu: i guess it's time to come up with a byline for it hm.

02:19:51 nubbins`: bunny rabbit

02:20:02 mircea_popescu: you think ? pics usually make cards look cheap

02:20:08 danielpbarron: ^ ++

02:20:18 nubbins`: lel, i kid

02:20:43 danielpbarron: i literally have a crate of business cards saved up

02:20:50 mircea_popescu: later tell bingoboingo here is your very helpful trigger : ^

02:20:51 danielpbarron: i collect the things

02:21:15 *: mircea_popescu pictures danielpbarron doing that thing with the cards in american psycho

02:21:21 nubbins`: i actually need to print more for myself

02:21:31 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell bingoboingo here is your very helpful trigger : ^

02:21:31 gribble: The operation succeeded.

02:21:31 danielpbarron: i don't think i've seen that movie

02:21:42 nubbins`: mircea_popescu i never understood the concept of a "paper erection" until i got into this biz, ya know

02:21:43 mircea_popescu: christian slater is almost hot.

02:22:03 mircea_popescu: but the film could definitely have done with a lot more and a lot better nudity.

02:22:09 nubbins`: now it's all flared nostrils & running fingertips over things

02:22:12 danielpbarron: oh yeah, not some weird non-standard shape / fold-out w/e

02:22:21 mircea_popescu: a showgirls style casual nudity meets american psycho casual psychopathology would rock.

02:22:27 nubbins`: fold-outs 0/10 would not do

02:22:34 danielpbarron: good.

02:22:40 nubbins`: maybe black paper

02:22:46 mircea_popescu: nubbins` noteven for ronald mc donald / gavin mcsatoshi / etc ?

02:22:59 mircea_popescu: ah, my gold on black cards look awesome.

02:23:01 nubbins`: puzzle or word search on the back maybe

02:23:09 mircea_popescu: course, not so easy to pull it off, need just the right kinda asshole.

02:23:17 nubbins`: we did some gold on black recently

02:23:29 nubbins`: not sure if i have pics handy, but i know there's a couple cards downstairs

02:23:49 nubbins`: actually, bird book has gold on black as well

02:24:00 nubbins`: !s plough

02:24:01 assbot: 7 results for 'plough' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=plough

02:24:09 mircea_popescu: hired another lawyer the other day, left him my card, then when we met socially later he was like... well the office tried to figure out wtf. first we thought those must be like mail codes of your country. but then that didn't make sense. so susie said you must be in porn.

02:24:28 nubbins`: http://i.imgur.com/pxZ4arA.jpg

02:24:29 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOuR8e )

02:24:41 nubbins`: not quite the best shot to show it off, but yknow

02:24:45 nubbins`: looks ballin

02:24:52 mircea_popescu: nubbins` that gold looks more like bronze

02:24:59 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not a gpg-enabled lawyer, i take it

02:25:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10650 @ 0.0002943 = 3.1343 BTC [+]

02:25:18 nubbins`: that's actually a pure gold base w/ some orange pigment added

02:25:24 nubbins`: good eye on ya 8)

02:25:37 mircea_popescu: o gawd, looking for stuff I r find... http://fraudsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/extradited-by-my-rubber-ducklings.html

02:25:38 assbot: Print Page - MPEx owner in danger of being extradited to US to face charges ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOv8bb )

02:25:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not at that time.

02:29:07 asciilifeform: who was it who had the steel businesscards.

02:29:11 nubbins`: gross

02:29:23 nubbins`: why not glitter?

02:29:26 asciilifeform: nono

02:29:40 nubbins`: or nettles

02:29:40 asciilifeform: with actual cutouts. massive co2 laser.

02:30:00 nubbins`: what am i gonna do with a steel business card

02:30:19 asciilifeform: http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--ryw4r_eG--/18s0bpicjpxufjpg.jpg

02:30:20 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOwkvg )

02:30:22 asciilifeform: ^ this possibly

02:31:14 nubbins`: HA

02:31:22 nubbins`: ok, fair enough

02:31:56 nubbins`: s.nsa cards w/ cardano pcb traces silkscreened in copper ink

02:32:00 mircea_popescu: you know, there's this legend that actually happened of romanian mobster that got shot coming out of a restaurant

02:32:12 mircea_popescu: except he was shotwith a .38 and he was carring money. so it didn't go through.

02:32:13 nubbins`: 50% transparent mask layer on top

02:32:24 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i drew a pcb card for mircea_popescu half-seriously

02:32:30 mircea_popescu: so... have a buncha steel business cards, make your own armor

02:32:31 asciilifeform: (it's linked in a comment on his site iirc)

02:32:49 nubbins`: it'd work

02:33:00 asciilifeform: !s ppsh

02:33:01 assbot: 3 results for 'ppsh' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ppsh

02:33:01 mircea_popescu: it did work. bullet didn't even make it through the whole ~200 leaves.

02:33:05 mircea_popescu: polymer banknotes.

02:33:46 nubbins`: asciilifeform the only material difference between one and the other is the substrate

02:33:56 *: asciilifeform trying to find ancient thread re: drunken red army folks having a duel with submachineguns and blocked by greatcoats

02:34:09 *: asciilifeform then remembered that the legend featured american 'thompson' brought on lend-lease

02:35:33 asciilifeform: http://www.quicksprout.com/images/businesscards/officedesk.jpg

02:35:34 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOxuXC )

02:36:25 asciilifeform: or simply picture a card with btc privkey

02:36:36 asciilifeform: (funded just a bit)

02:37:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i remember correctly, usg is on record saying they lack the ability to input a printed gpg privkey.

02:37:56 mircea_popescu: was in some court case or other during the great assault on private email providers of 2012-2013

02:38:05 asciilifeform: iirc it was 'not sop therefore chew for us and feed into mouth or else'

02:38:10 asciilifeform: lavabit case

02:38:15 mircea_popescu: a yes.

02:38:41 mircea_popescu: that had me for a chuckle, you know ? "too lazy to type it in, it's like characters and shit"

02:38:54 mircea_popescu: then on the other line alf was going nuts about kbd emanations good for 20 meters even!

02:39:33 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060994 << this is more of an infantilism than a defect.

02:39:33 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 22:56:06; trinque: there's a mental defect where one considers himself to be an idea

02:40:24 asciilifeform: let's have gedankenexperiment (is trinque still awake ?)

02:41:40 nubbins`: was he ever :0

02:41:42 asciilifeform: suppose a man were disassembled into components, sorted by atomic mass. then, next day, reassembled. answer - a) this cannot be done for Reasons b) he died and was replaced with soul-less copy c) he simply got paused and then resumed, will wonder where the day went but nothing else d) none of the above ?

02:41:44 mircea_popescu: hey, did you know trauma is "dreaming" in german ?

02:41:48 mircea_popescu: and kunts = art ?

02:42:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform allow me to answer that!

02:42:54 mircea_popescu: One more dies one more lives, one baby cries One mother grieves...

02:43:11 asciilifeform: this is an ancient mega-war, yes, i know.

02:43:19 mircea_popescu: and now with music! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI60crM-piE

02:43:20 assbot: Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son Lyrics - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOzC1I )

02:43:35 mircea_popescu: possibly the best song of all time.

02:45:27 mircea_popescu: DEFINITELY a better approach to the entire eliezer/potter bs than either of the proponents.

02:45:49 mircea_popescu: plus it only takes ten minutes or so.

02:47:30 nubbins`: kunts

02:47:34 nubbins`: kunst!

02:47:48 asciilifeform: kuntskammer

02:48:07 mircea_popescu: nubbins` don't opress my convenient dyslexia!

02:48:47 mircea_popescu: (there's a widely known, at least in europe, welt der kunst, world of art. /me had classmates going for a while that it simply means "wealth of cunts")

02:48:58 nubbins`: ;;google mommy and me are animals

02:48:59 gribble: Jonathan Meese & his mother: Mommy and me are animals - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgxQntdMjwI; - Mommy & me rescue - Shamokin, PA Rescue Animals: http://mommyandme.rescueme.org/; Mommy & me rescue - Adopt a Pet: http://www.adoptapet.com/adoption_rescue/85327.html

02:49:04 nubbins`: ^ speaking of kunst

02:49:35 nubbins`: if you wanna see some bizarre

02:51:03 mircea_popescu: nubbins` i recall discussing that guy last year.

02:51:12 nubbins`: nod

02:51:22 nubbins`: i actually ran into this guy in berlin last summer, hey?

02:51:31 nubbins`: (and his mother)

02:52:05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1061025 << i suspect the importance of that is strictly local. ie, some club of idiots got owned by this concept specially constructed for their particular disabilities.

02:52:05 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 23:06:34; nubbins`: and much realer than rololol's basilisk

02:52:26 decimation: asciilifeform: re: asciilifeform: presumably they keel over somewhere else, in a designated place < cats are well known for anticipating their deaths and crawling up some inaccessible hole beforehand to die

02:52:37 asciilifeform: incidentally, the 'basilisk' spoken of is not the usual mythological one,

02:52:42 decimation: probably some kind of protection instinct

02:52:44 asciilifeform: but the one featured in the short story 'blit'

02:52:45 mircea_popescu: nubbins` you know what i'd like to see, a reality show of this guy and athene the best paladin in the world (with his mother)

02:52:48 mircea_popescu: french vs german!

02:53:02 decimation: Ich moechte gern ein Eis bitte

02:53:18 asciilifeform: decimation: i always mistrusted this explanation. beasts do not need to sense their deaths to turn up expired in some inaccessible place.

02:53:21 nubbins`: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLYrFR9RT_U

02:53:22 assbot: Best Paladin of The World pwning nubs on My Heart Will Go On from Celine Dion (ATHENE #1) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOCdsp )

02:53:24 nubbins`: o.O

02:53:38 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1061032 << for my peace of mind, what do you think qt is ?

02:53:38 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 23:07:43; nubbins`: unless you're bringing quantum tunneling into it 8)

02:53:42 asciilifeform: they could easily go there every day, and simply fail to come out

02:54:01 *: decimation doesn't own cats, but has heard several anecdotes

02:54:17 nubbins`: mircea_popescu just checking to see if anyone was paying attention 8)

02:54:22 mircea_popescu: nubbins` http://fraudsters.com/2012/cel-mai-bun-paladin-din-the-world/

02:54:23 assbot: Cel mai bun paladin din the world. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOCvj4 )

02:54:31 mircea_popescu: nubbins` but nevertheless...

02:55:30 mircea_popescu: anyway : quantum tunneling is the observed property of quantum "particles" to interact at a distance without ever interacting with whatever's separating their first position from the second.

02:55:41 mircea_popescu: this is most annoying when for instance electrons ignore dielectrics

02:55:48 nubbins`: that's quantum entanglement, no?

02:55:51 mircea_popescu: no.

02:56:03 nubbins`: quantum tunneling is when i go outside but skip the door

02:56:07 mircea_popescu: quantum entanglement is the property of two apparently distinct "particles" to share more than they should.

02:56:45 mircea_popescu: as a rule of thumb, the first occurs over tiny distances, the 2nd is distance-invariant

02:57:21 mircea_popescu: nubbins` yes, something like that. as if you could only be right before or right after the door but not in between.

02:57:23 nubbins`: this is all the sort of thing i understand while reading it but don't really copy it over to long-term storage

02:57:26 mircea_popescu: depends a lot on your energy.

02:57:29 nubbins`: yeah

02:57:40 mircea_popescu: but then again in qm, your existence is not so distinct from your energy.

02:57:56 mircea_popescu: how did that line go,

02:58:02 asciilifeform: the long-distance one behaves exclusively like a pair of synched rng.

02:58:04 mircea_popescu: ;;google money over power, power over money

02:58:04 gribble: WAREN G & SISSEL - THE RAPSODY PRINCE IGOR - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORui2qE7Aa4; Warren G - Prince Igor Lyrics | MetroLyrics: http://www.metrolyrics.com/prince-igor-lyrics-warren-g.html; JWTM – Money Over Power Lyrics | Genius: http://genius.com/Jwtm-money-over-power-lyrics

02:59:29 asciilifeform: the short-distance (tunnel) on the other hand is one of the weapons by which 'moore's law' is dying - http://www.iue.tuwien.ac.at/phd/entner/node23.html

02:59:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1FODLm0 )

03:00:48 asciilifeform: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/barr.html << for folks who like to play with the numbers

03:00:50 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOE1BN )

03:01:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite.

03:01:08 mircea_popescu: just about at the 5ish nm level it takes over iirc

03:02:31 decimation: asciilifeform: re: conversation about neighborhood isp: turns out there is a town about an hour away from you that is attempting to provide its own gigabit fiber service: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/a-startup-offering-gigabit-fiber-is-expanding-to-a-second-comcast-dominated-city

03:02:32 assbot: A Startup Offering Gigabit Fiber Is Expanding to a Second Comcast-Dominated City | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOEpQt )

03:02:58 mircea_popescu: decimation a startup != a town tho neh ?

03:03:05 asciilifeform: was about to say.

03:03:20 asciilifeform: show me a town where anyone freely digs up the roads.

03:03:25 asciilifeform: not even in africa.

03:03:43 decimation: no if you read the article, the 'startup' is actually a division of tucows, the domainame freeware site

03:03:57 decimation: and they are merely 'operating' the network after westminster, md builds it

03:04:29 decimation: " "We want to blow this thing up, and we want disruptive services at disruptive pricing," Robert Wack, Westminster's city council president, told me. "We've got Comcast and its usual suite of services, Verizon DSL, with its patchy service areas, and dish and satellite services. Nobody is happy with any of it, and none of it has the capacity we need to take this city into the future.""

03:05:08 asciilifeform: verizomcast is doomed to play 'bad cop' to the 'good cop' of usgnet

03:05:13 asciilifeform: (or whatever name it ends up taking)

03:05:57 decimation: apparently tucows is on usg's shitlist because it won't play ball

03:06:12 decimation: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/inside-the-notorious-canadian-internet-company-targeted-by-the-us-government " As previously mentioned, Tucows landed on the US Trade Representative’s annual list of notorious markets due to the company’s practice of not responding to takedown requests from companies alleging that Tucows registers domains for sites selling illegal goods. This is despite the fact that a domain name registrar has

03:06:13 assbot: Inside the 'Notorious' Canadian Internet Company Targeted by the US Government | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOFnfA )

03:06:14 decimation: essentially no say in the content of the websites on its roster, Bunton told me. "

03:07:32 asciilifeform: idea is that they 'have the choice to surrender to usg' and didn't make it

03:08:29 decimation: yeah I guess that's the idea, but it seems dubious that usg will tolerate such behavior

03:08:40 decimation: especially when it has its own blessed monopolists

03:10:42 nubbins`: wonder will the town wait to be sued before giving up subscriber info

03:11:13 asciilifeform: lol 'giving up' when isp (and credit card co) pipe it to usg in milliseconds when subscriber pays

03:11:22 asciilifeform: and continuously after

03:11:39 nubbins`: :D

03:12:16 nubbins`: if i wanna see a card trick, i don't want you to hold the deck face-up

03:12:50 asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9GJPoMs30E << historical interest

03:12:52 assbot: Guillotine in the basement of German Reichstag - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bf9tCJ )

03:12:57 nubbins`: man, i remember tucows from back when i had to buy a book to use the internet

03:13:29 decimation: asciilifeform: I don't get why we don't still use the guillotine

03:13:34 decimation: seems pretty fast and efficient

03:14:01 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-01-2015#967169

03:14:01 assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 00:39:01; *: asciilifeform has been enjoying 'Seeing Justice Done. The Age of Spectacular Capital Punishment in France.' (Paul Friedland.)

03:14:15 asciilifeform: ^ described, among other very interesting things, the decline & fall of the guillotine

03:14:40 asciilifeform: even while it was still used, was hidden behind closed door for most of the 20th c

03:14:54 asciilifeform: because of the fundamental duplicity of totalitarian state

03:15:06 asciilifeform: (must keep two sets of books, can't show publicly how it works)

03:15:27 asciilifeform: just as 'civilized' countries today punish folks behind closed doors

03:16:08 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-07-2014#772419 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-07-2014#772420 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-07-2014#772421 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-07-2014#772429

03:16:08 assbot: Logged on 27-07-2014 17:35:40; asciilifeform: the one common anthropological thread i see here is that most governments insist on some 'national' symbolic meaning in their chosen means of execution. e.g., the french guillotine across all five 'republics'

03:16:08 assbot: Logged on 27-07-2014 17:36:01; asciilifeform: when usa was a techno-power, electric chair was king

03:16:08 assbot: Logged on 27-07-2014 17:36:20; asciilifeform: banana republics, soviet world - shooting

03:16:08 assbot: Logged on 27-07-2014 17:39:58; asciilifeform: so from this it follows that the current ceremony (injection with not-quite-poisons in an elaborate pseudo-medical setting) also symbolizes something about modern usa, re: national character.

03:17:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00029193 = 1.2261 BTC [-]

03:17:13 decimation: re: electric chair < my understanding is that it was mainly a marketing gimmick for electricity

03:17:38 nubbins`: i once saw thomas edison electrocute an elephant

03:17:43 nubbins`: well, not in person

03:17:55 asciilifeform: famous film

03:18:18 decimation: asciilifeform: note that keeping the execution behind closed doors greatly diminishes its intended effect to encourage the others

03:18:27 asciilifeform: the books was actually about this

03:18:36 asciilifeform: specifically, how the purpose changed

03:18:43 asciilifeform: and wtf it even was originally.

03:18:48 asciilifeform: highly recommended.

03:19:03 decimation: thanks for the recommendation.

03:19:25 nubbins`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topsy_%28elephant%29

03:19:26 assbot: Topsy (elephant) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1FOIRip )

03:19:26 nubbins`: :o

03:20:11 decimation: asciilifeform: my hypothesis re: hidden execution in the US was that those who wanted to end all executions encouraged it so that they could then argue that it doesn't have a 'discouragement' effect on crime

03:20:34 nubbins`: what a bummer

03:20:48 decimation: just like the same ones burden the death penalty with layers of bureaucracy and then claim that it's too unwieldy to use

03:21:32 mircea_popescu: !up ponyslaystation

03:21:52 mircea_popescu: <decimation> no if you read the article, the 'startup' is actually a division of tucows, the domainame freeware site << you know twocows i actually like.

03:22:31 mircea_popescu: o.O

03:22:40 mircea_popescu: and obviously, the usg doesn't like it. how surprising.

03:22:48 *: decimation has fond memories of downloading warez from tucows back in the day

03:23:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95950 @ 0.00028191 = 27.0493 BTC [-] {2}

03:23:16 asciilifeform: aha

03:23:18 asciilifeform: it and simtel

03:23:23 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> idea is that they 'have the choice to surrender to usg' and didn't make it << myeah. they gotta be supported.

03:23:31 mircea_popescu: generally, any friend of the usg is an enemy of the world.

03:23:51 decimation: asciilifeform: did you get those little paper catalogs of shareware which you could order on diskettes?

03:24:00 asciilifeform: never got paper, no

03:24:03 asciilifeform: (where? lol)

03:24:15 mircea_popescu: i did, actually.

03:24:20 mircea_popescu: even got a diskette of fractal programs.

03:26:21 *: mircea_popescu comes from a country where "warez" has no particular meaning. you mean software, right ?

03:26:54 decimation: yes, with the meaning shaded with the implication that the software is unlicensed

03:27:03 decimation: although in this case it was shareware generally

03:28:42 mircea_popescu: http://36.media.tumblr.com/2a63eaed64b2fba30ca3a958c905b813/tumblr_mw02jsxq8T1s9rg6lo1_1280.jpg << study.

03:28:43 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bfd6bH )

03:34:44 decimation: linked from ascii's youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQdDnbXXn20 < Wehrmacht soldaten describing their point of view, and pride

03:34:45 assbot: WW2 justified by former German soldiers - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bfej2Q )

03:35:47 decimation: forward to 2:57ff to see the old dude scold some chick about 'war crimes'

03:40:03 asciilifeform: from guillotine thread: a: 'I want it, is it for sale?'

03:40:16 asciilifeform: b: 'Build your own, so you too can become a state. Then build a prison to house it, and start capturing people, accusing them of shit, and holding them for ransom. Print lots of worthless IOUs and start paying for stuff with them, and extorting money from your neighbors to pay you with your own IOUs every year a tax on their land, or you will imprison and guilotine them. Use your growing wealth to stockpile more and more we

03:40:16 asciilifeform: apons and back up your operation, because you're making more an more enemies, but that's okay, you have all the high tech weapons. Start passing laws to prohibit others from owning anything more than a rifle or shotgun, while you buy gunships and tanks and jets and cluster bombs. Hirer very intelligent people who are ready to sell out humanity in exchange for trinket amounts of wealth to fatten their own pockets. Setup c

03:40:17 asciilifeform: ourts and judges to pass laws to forbid everyone around you from killing, lying, enslaving or imprisoning people, and stealing, but make it all legal for you under different names. Congratulations, you have just founded a country,also known as a state! Go to war with other states, to get rid of surplus wealth and attempt to grab more land to tax more people, when you find an opportunity that they are weaker than you. Secret

03:40:24 asciilifeform: ly assasisnate foreign leaders to destablilize small countries around you, and run drug running operations to generate even more revenue for more black projects, and tell your people its for their own security. Waterboard and torture your enemies and call them terrorists.'

03:40:30 asciilifeform: (dropped here for the lulzrecord)

03:41:20 decimation: heh

03:46:15 decimation: asciilifeform: not to mention you gotta setup a bureacracy so the people can grovel before it for trinkets: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2015/02/28/massachusetts-bureaucracy-gets-1-in-13-households-to-come-in-and-beg/

03:46:16 assbot: Philip Greenspun's Weblog » Massachusetts bureaucracy gets 1 in 13 households to come in and beg ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bfh5oL )

03:50:17 mircea_popescu: in mass' defense, it's really merely providing a very in demand service

03:50:29 mircea_popescu: 1 in 2 households are looking for something to beg and someplace to do it.

03:50:40 decimation: heh true

03:50:59 mircea_popescu: "And those workers are different from the ones who decide whether or not to give out a free"

03:51:05 mircea_popescu: why exactly are these idiots called "workers" ?

03:51:13 decimation: well, they get paid

03:51:16 mircea_popescu: people object to slave hard drives being called slave hard drives, in spite of the accuracy

03:51:25 mircea_popescu: nobody cares shitheads are called workers ?

03:51:42 mircea_popescu: you, if your paycheck comes from the governent, YOU ARE NOT A WORKER.

03:51:51 mircea_popescu: work is when you do something useful. you're a fricitoner not a fucking worker.

03:52:21 decimation: well, that net catches a good portion of the us when considered in its wide sense

03:52:28 mircea_popescu: i'da made the comment there, but apparently greenspun doesn't know how to comments.

03:53:32 decimation: as it is, only 58% of usians "work" http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t01.htm

03:53:33 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BfiSdm )

03:53:52 decimation: almost 59%! thanks obama!

03:54:43 mircea_popescu: honestly i don't think this has ever been different.

03:54:56 mircea_popescu: in your classical "ancient tribe in the caves" about 2/3 of the tribe did something.

03:55:11 decimation: well, it excludes the quite legitimate work of raising children

03:55:15 mircea_popescu: what's different is a bunch of ideological spew clouding the issues.

03:56:00 mircea_popescu: decimation other than the genetics of intelligence, the children is another way i get conservatives enraged.

03:56:15 mircea_popescu: as far as i'm concerned, giving a mother a year off at childbirth is perfectly reasonable.

03:56:33 decimation: why wouldn't a conservative agree?

03:56:35 mircea_popescu: people go nuts. as if babies are required to come from the stork, and for free, because htey're wrapped up too tightly to consider fucking.

03:56:45 mircea_popescu: decimation FREE MONEY TO NIGGER WHORES!!!?!?!?!?!

03:56:56 decimation: well, there is the question of 'who pays'

03:57:00 mircea_popescu: at least that's what it usually reduces to.

03:57:12 decimation: but it certainly seems like society ought to consider paying for young families over old codgers

03:57:14 mircea_popescu: decimation imo the most defensible expense in the state budget.

03:57:17 mircea_popescu: way before "education"

03:58:13 asciilifeform: meat production?

03:58:18 mircea_popescu: i dun think there's anything that can be done in a whole decade of "education" that's as valuable as kid having mother at home first year.

03:58:23 decimation: there is something weird about the us, in that the grandparents often think that their responisibilities end after seeing the children off to college

03:58:33 decimation: instead of endowing the next generation

03:58:48 mircea_popescu: decimation generally ro families reproduce once grandparents go to pension.

03:59:04 mircea_popescu: EXACTLY the same thing, except state doesn't pay for mother's year off, pays for gramma's years off.

03:59:31 decimation: well, paying for young families has the further advantage of being a limited-time affair

03:59:58 mircea_popescu: it's not even paying for families per se.

04:00:10 mircea_popescu: it's just, children are a cost everyone seems to wish to externalize.

04:00:11 mircea_popescu: glwt...

04:00:23 decimation: yes, agreed

04:00:47 decimation: a few generations ago it was considered everyone's job (in the family tree) to assist with the young children

04:01:17 mircea_popescu: amusingly, the revolutionary french actually put it in the code that pregnant women may steal food off market displays.

04:02:10 mircea_popescu: but, in turkey, at the height of the syrian refugee crisis, i numerously observed various people selling food gifting items to pregnant syrian women.

04:02:14 mircea_popescu: the idea's widespread.

04:03:01 decimation: there is some of that in the us, in a fossilized way. sometimes pregnant women are given priority for parking, for instance

04:03:03 mircea_popescu: (put the husbands in the most visibly awkward position too - once that hand to chest gesture's done they can't refuse, but on the other hand... their wife's sexuality was just referenced by these half-satan pigdogs. was pretty lulzy to observe)

04:03:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57350 @ 0.00028252 = 16.2025 BTC [+] {2}

04:04:23 mircea_popescu: which doth mean that even across religious conflict, the pregnant woman trumps the imam. imagine that!

04:04:49 decimation: heh. no one can shrug off their own humanity

04:05:00 mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure that's what it is.

04:05:51 mircea_popescu: There are no limits to male hypocrisy in this matter. No doubt there are moments when man?s sexual immunities are made acutely humiliating to him. When the terrible moment of birth arrives, its supreme importance and its superhuman effort and peril, in which the father has no part, dwarf him into the meanest insignificance: he slinks out of the way of the humblest petticoat, happy if he be poor enough to be pushed o

04:05:51 mircea_popescu: ut of the house to outface his ignominy by drunken rejoicings. But when the crisis is over he takes his revenge, swaggering as the breadwinner, and speaking of Woman?s ?sphere? with condescension, even with chivalry, as if the kitchen and the nursery were less important than the office in the city. When his swagger is exhausted he drivels into erotic poetry or sentimental uxoriousness; and the Tennysonian King Ar

04:05:52 mircea_popescu: thur posing at Guinevere becomes Don Quixote grovelling before Dulcinea. You must admit that here Nature beats Comedy out of the field: the wildest hominist or feminist farce is insipid after the most commonplace ?slice of life.?

04:05:59 mircea_popescu: i am rather persuaded by shaw there.

04:06:07 mircea_popescu: quite out of the field.

04:07:07 mircea_popescu: the us equivalent, of course, being mammie to rhett butler : "theis ain't a man's job, buzz off."

04:09:25 mircea_popescu: http://edge.org/conversation/the-normal-well-tempered-mind << fwiw, i am still not convinced that the electric neuron is not the correct approach. the problem is that it should be stateful. i am half tempted to model what happens if you run a grid of these with say 255 states per.

04:09:27 assbot: THE NORMAL WELL-TEMPERED MIND | Edge.org ... ( http://bit.ly/1BfmpIX )

04:09:27 decimation: there was a time when the husband could appropriately wait outside to receive the new little one after the moment came

04:11:26 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1061067 << lol he's such a gadfly this guy :D

04:11:26 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 23:15:14; jurov: lol "we don't know what is a consciousness? let's say it is composed of many of itself"

04:11:41 thestringpuller: anyone watching the friedcat story developing

04:11:55 mircea_popescu: jurov you ever considered doing stand-up comedy ? something in the stewart vein mebbe ?

04:12:07 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller sort-of. why /

04:15:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9550 @ 0.0002912 = 2.781 BTC [+]

04:17:07 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1061138 << well, something like that. "what do you mean by this nonsensical question you purport to be asking"

04:17:07 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 23:46:09; asciilifeform: the answer to 'is the copy you' is 'shutthefuckup you're asking a broken question'

04:18:02 mircea_popescu: but that aside : you will note that if i make a bitwise copy of a running system on anothjer system, eiteher will continue independently. if i then set the second on fire, the first is unharmed. whether the 2nd "Thinks" that "it" = "the first" is harmed oir not is irrelevant.

04:18:20 mircea_popescu: that's the animism here, the naive proposition that harm upon the wax statuette will visit the subject.

04:18:24 mircea_popescu: which is lulzy.

04:19:20 asciilifeform: the lulz comes from operating using undefined thing

04:19:30 asciilifeform: as in a proof where divided by 0

04:20:15 mircea_popescu: to me the lulz comes from the similarity with idiocy, in spite of all the pretense.

04:20:27 mircea_popescu: the same sort of thing as "well... french nobles had lice. just like the peasants. and died of tb"

04:20:42 mircea_popescu: "so then what is this nobility again ?" "oh, their blood was a differentcolor." "ic."

04:21:13 mircea_popescu: "rationalists" indistinguishable from flatearthists, except, perhaps, by the color of their guts ? sign me up.

04:22:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4531 @ 0.00028047 = 1.2708 BTC [-]

04:22:30 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1061143 << except less is, of course, more.

04:22:30 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 23:51:31; Adlai: well, you do become 'less yourself', until there's nothing left... although it's a more complex process than just cells dying

04:22:49 mircea_popescu: you become more like your "true self", which just happens to be dead.

04:23:30 mircea_popescu: no one would dispute the true lenin is in the transhumanist facility at dark pink plaza right ?

04:23:43 asciilifeform: mega-l0lz

04:24:15 asciilifeform: 'Ленин жил, Ленин жив, Ленин будет жить!' (TM)

04:24:32 mircea_popescu: ikr?

04:25:05 nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu> you become more like your "true self", which just happens to be dead. <<< oh ho ho ho, i like this

04:25:11 mircea_popescu: ;)

04:25:17 nubbins`: what an anomaly to be wiggling about!!

04:25:24 mircea_popescu: isn't it ?

04:25:31 nubbins`: christ, can't wait for it to stop

04:25:32 mircea_popescu: that's why you get sleep paralysis. but it doesn'ty hold.

04:25:34 nubbins`: get some fuckin rest

04:25:35 mircea_popescu: well... at least not at first.

04:26:04 nubbins`: ahh, that's rich

04:26:27 decimation: re: genetics of intelligence < the post makes a good point, in that there's nobody who can tell a story about how some genes 'cause' intelligence. But that doesn't really address the observation that when you give a test to ethnic groups A&B, the resulting distributions are different.

04:26:41 asciilifeform: and the twin studies - happened.

04:26:43 mircea_popescu: decimation why would you expect it addresses that ?

04:27:04 mircea_popescu: it also doesn't address this : http://36.media.tumblr.com/a3c8b86ae62f828e29f0cc2f7becb8c5/tumblr_mvfml07JnV1sgpxs6o1_1280.jpg

04:27:05 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bfqz3x )

04:27:06 asciilifeform: !s stupidity heritable

04:27:07 assbot: 1 results for 'stupidity heritable' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=stupidity+heritable

04:27:07 mircea_popescu: among other things.

04:27:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l where this photo from ?

04:27:40 nubbins`: the singularity

04:27:43 mircea_popescu: oh, private genetics research lab.

04:28:12 mircea_popescu: (there's this entire subculture of [mostly white] men that aim to raise other peopel's children)

04:28:23 asciilifeform: fetish ?

04:28:30 mircea_popescu: im not sure that's an adequate term.

04:28:40 decimation: cuckoldry?

04:28:53 mircea_popescu: the behaviour is not so much different from whatever, altruism. speech. etc.

04:29:07 mircea_popescu: decimation i suppose technically.

04:29:19 mircea_popescu: tho by now that's migrated closer to a personal relationship.

04:29:27 mircea_popescu: less dramatically, people adopt all the time.

04:30:06 nubbins`: aka the double cuckold

04:30:20 decimation: and always have

04:30:25 mircea_popescu: at any rate : expecting human behaviour to be addressed by genetics is a little like expecting food to be discussed by chemistry.

04:30:46 asciilifeform: ^ ahahaha there we have it

04:30:52 mircea_popescu: some attempts will be made, but srsly... whadda ya want. shit's hard and chemistry has other stuff to do.

04:30:59 asciilifeform: can still explain the behaviour of turing's apple with chemistry

04:31:13 mircea_popescu: for some definitions of explain.

04:31:25 asciilifeform: the most interesting fact about it - absolutely

04:31:38 mircea_popescu: that's the thing : any attempt to explain behaviour by genetics ends up bending the notion of "explain" the fuck out of place

04:31:42 mircea_popescu: this is damaging to the explainer.

04:32:31 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but maybe the apples made him gay ?

04:32:55 asciilifeform: thinking of the kcn apple

04:32:59 mircea_popescu: i know.

04:33:13 mircea_popescu: but wouldn't you agree that had the apples made him gay, THAT would be the most interesting thing about them ?

04:33:37 asciilifeform: sure, let's walk with that

04:33:40 asciilifeform: what do we get

04:33:46 mircea_popescu: we get that fuckall.

04:34:09 decimation: well, we have a warning to others

04:34:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52250 @ 0.00028943 = 15.1227 BTC [+] {2}

04:34:22 nubbins`: eat not thine apple

04:34:32 nubbins`: i developed an allergy to apple skins

04:34:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we have a hidden and unjustified jump here

04:34:38 nubbins`: sucks, i like apples ;/

04:34:50 asciilifeform: -some- behaviour is demonstrably -heritable-

04:35:04 asciilifeform: not same as 'behaviour can be explained [in total] by genetics'

04:35:14 nubbins`: didn't they retroactively expunge turing's homosexuality conviction within the past couple years

04:36:02 mircea_popescu: well so then.

04:36:17 mircea_popescu: "to explain" normally means, "all of it".

04:37:15 asciilifeform: in that sense hardly anything has ever been explained.

04:37:23 mircea_popescu: once copulation explained pregnancy, that was it , you know ?

04:37:28 mircea_popescu: well...

04:37:53 nubbins`: took me til age 24 before it was explained that 1+1=2

04:37:58 nubbins`: and even that... the axioms

04:38:04 nubbins`: only goes down so far

04:38:14 asciilifeform: nubbins` owns the complete r&w 'principia' ?

04:38:45 nubbins`: covered sections in various number theory courses

04:39:57 decimation: mircea_popescu: "pregnancy comes from copulation" is a fairly workable theory

04:40:05 nubbins`: worst rabbit hole re:math was one winter eve i found myself thoroughly intoxicated at a party i'd wandered across

04:40:23 nubbins`: turned out to be the 60th bday of this philosophy prof at local uni

04:40:39 nubbins`: left the house ~4 hours later w/ several tomes on the philosophy of mathematics

04:41:41 mircea_popescu: decimation quite a ways ahead of any genetic explanations for intelligence on tap

04:41:57 mircea_popescu: leaving aside the differential of quality between the definitions of pregnant and intelligent.

04:42:12 asciilifeform: of several key types of stupidity - as solid as any explaination in e.g., electronics

04:42:22 nubbins`: anyway, principia, smth like ~100 pages into volume ii before they finish the proof?!

04:42:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but the genetic explanation of stupidity is certainly not in dispute here.

04:42:41 mircea_popescu: what, down sindrome ? that's uncontroversial as it gets.

04:42:44 mircea_popescu: the other end of the scale tho...

04:42:45 asciilifeform: not even speaking of trisomies etc

04:42:53 mircea_popescu: note that my observation about where the gaussian's bound is not idle.

04:42:56 mircea_popescu: it connects to this.

04:42:57 asciilifeform: but of what in the english world is usually called 'shitflessness' etc

04:43:06 asciilifeform: *shiftlessness

04:43:08 mircea_popescu: not very visible, but yes, whole spittoon

04:44:36 nubbins`: i feel shiftlessness is much more a product of upbringing

04:44:46 asciilifeform: nubbins`: the twin studies -happened-

04:44:52 asciilifeform: can't magick them away

04:44:53 mircea_popescu: but he feels.

04:44:57 asciilifeform: and, notably, no one ever tried.

04:44:59 nubbins`: ^ strongly, even!

04:45:06 mircea_popescu: are you saying the whippets are no no2 ?

04:45:12 asciilifeform: l0l

04:45:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, re twin studies : they're great because best we got

04:45:48 mircea_popescu: not because word of god, so to speak.

04:46:01 asciilifeform: but state of the art, which has to be dealt with as such

04:46:05 mircea_popescu: no contest.

04:46:15 asciilifeform: and not as 'lala never heard of this, so must not be relevant'

04:46:25 mircea_popescu: but that is an argument to sink a competing theory with,

04:46:31 mircea_popescu: it does not work to sink skepticism.

04:46:47 asciilifeform: skepticism ought to happily bob about, it doesn't need to sink

04:46:47 decimation: of course not, but the skeptic is still informed

04:47:05 mircea_popescu: yeah, skepticism will never sink, and if it does, brainbox' flooded.

04:48:06 mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the issue : a plethora of persuasive arguments can be made starting with genetics and ending with behaviours. however, the most commonly encountered ones are neither persuasive

04:48:11 mircea_popescu: nor all that intelligent or informed.

04:49:02 asciilifeform: what do we do next, the 'commonly encountered' variety of physics? number theory?

04:49:03 mircea_popescu: and in particular the race -> intelligence one has, in my experience so far, about a thousand times more often worked to illuminate the idiocy of the proponent than say anything about its intended topic.

04:49:38 mircea_popescu: (and yes intelligence is, by and large, a human behaviour. it's not a fucking identity.)

04:49:50 mircea_popescu: same difference as between being a doctor and practicing medicine.

04:50:19 asciilifeform: naggum had a nifty piece on this fine point

04:50:22 asciilifeform: but i've misplaced it

04:50:30 mircea_popescu: i like naggum's points.

04:50:49 asciilifeform: it won't run away. whoever wants, can find...

04:52:20 mircea_popescu: but to belabour the point : one of the principal reasons "measuring iq" as it were height is so ridiculous, is because nobody has yet had an off day for height.

04:52:21 nubbins`: all i'm arguing is that stupid people have kids, and their kids are given stupid food and provided with stupid stimulation and forced to interact mostly with their stupid parents and their stupid friends

04:52:34 mircea_popescu: im normally 6"2 but i woke with a headache and im only 4"10

04:52:34 decimation: whatever the causality between 'genes' and 'intelligence' might be, the story is shrouded under layers of ignorance, and it is thus good to be humble on the subject

04:52:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: strength is better analogy than height

04:52:43 nubbins`: if you think genetic predisposition plays a bigger part than whether you're surrounded by idiocy in your formative years, well...

04:52:47 asciilifeform: very simple to have an 'off day' for strength

04:53:05 mircea_popescu: nubbins` that won't fucking do anything. ANYTHING. you are to be traced to lucy, the stupidest chimp that ever lived.

04:53:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but strength, you wiull notice, is VERY capped at the top.

04:53:30 mircea_popescu: we don't see that many people carrying skyscrapers around.

04:53:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16838 @ 0.0002912 = 4.9032 BTC [+]

04:53:46 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: greater dynamic range, sure

04:53:50 asciilifeform: abundantly obvious

04:53:50 mircea_popescu: is it ?

04:53:55 decimation: nubbins`: folks who have looked into the matter tend to disagree

04:54:05 nubbins`: decimation your logic has no place here

04:54:11 asciilifeform: incidentally, my (i don't exclusively claim it..) myelin impedance matching hypothesis - is testable.

04:54:23 mircea_popescu: it's not bad, tho perhaps not directly intelligence,

04:54:26 mircea_popescu: certainly related.

04:54:27 decimation: asciilifeform: reaction times?

04:54:41 mircea_popescu: iirc i said then, i mostly measure intelligence in person by derived units, such as reaction speeds.

04:54:41 asciilifeform: think analogy: picture a number of clocks

04:54:54 asciilifeform: complicated mechanical clocks, all quite alike, but large enough to admit some sand

04:54:56 asciilifeform: and still run

04:54:57 asciilifeform: sorta.

04:55:10 asciilifeform: now vary how much sand in the gears.

04:55:23 asciilifeform: very loose analogy for the myelin matching thing

04:55:27 decimation: http://iqpersonalitygenius.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-decline-in-general-intelligence.html

04:55:28 assbot: Intelligence, Personality and Genius: The decline in general intelligence estimated from a meta-analysis of the slowing of simple reaction time ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bfx5Hq )

04:56:00 asciilifeform: incidentally the 'sand in the gears' hypothesis has a name

04:56:02 asciilifeform: 'big G'

04:56:15 asciilifeform: or rather 'general fitness factor'

04:56:26 asciilifeform: i forget who first described it

04:56:37 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1061162 << ftr, this "qualified" does exactly nothing. i dunno who thinks themselves qualified in the topic.

04:56:37 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 23:54:02; nubbins`: there's a large chunk of the book that could be misidentified as schizo by the unqualified observer

04:56:47 asciilifeform: but it adds up to, overall, taller/healthier/more decisive/intelligent in whatever sense / stronger / etc

04:56:51 asciilifeform: because - less 'sand'.

04:57:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and blonder.

04:57:04 asciilifeform: l0l

04:57:26 asciilifeform: 'your mileage may vary'

04:58:29 asciilifeform: at any rate, it was a hypothesis, and i only know of any support for a restricted version of it

04:58:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1061169 << you know this could make some pretty decent technomagic folklovestories ?

04:58:40 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 23:54:55; asciilifeform: and then mircea_popescu walks in with a '45 and asks which one to shoot

04:58:56 mircea_popescu: chick falls in love with geek, he takes her home and tells her to fuck any toy in the lab except this one,

04:59:02 mircea_popescu: so of course she does, so now there's a copy,

04:59:11 mircea_popescu: davai zdreanta desdemona etc.

04:59:12 asciilifeform: but it threatens to make some logical sense based on the tiny size of the 'phase space' of 'healthy/intelligent/strong' vs a world of possible organism, living and dead, which is none of these

04:59:24 asciilifeform: (recall the genetic algorithm discussions, and basic theory of mutation overall)

04:59:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on my own guesswork it's a present but minor factor.

05:00:02 mircea_popescu: think about women, your head thinks about women much easier/better. general fitness factor : big tits, tall, clear eyes, wide hips, etc etc.

05:00:04 mircea_popescu: intelligence ?

05:00:30 mircea_popescu: veheheheeery vaguely related.

05:03:05 decimation: the intelligent one survived long enough to be presented

05:03:46 mircea_popescu: maybe.

05:03:58 mircea_popescu: in some circumstances lack of intelligence is a distinctive fitting advantage.

05:04:20 decimation: no doubt. 'curiousity killed the cat'

05:04:25 asciilifeform: of intelligence, or the inevitable cost ?

05:04:36 asciilifeform: (it costs just like cpu costs)

05:04:53 mircea_popescu: well... you can now divorce these ?!

05:05:22 asciilifeform: well no. but it's rather like the difference between 'die in car crash' and 'die of exhaust fumes in garage'

05:05:28 asciilifeform: both - of car.

05:05:32 mircea_popescu: if survival depends on, say, spending a week in a fox hole paying the fuck attention, "intelligence", especially the dreamy "creative" sort the us is so enamoured with, is the topmost liability.

05:06:11 asciilifeform: hell, in that situation, you'd want to be... an insect. mosquito can bite in milliseconds; us, with our heavy circuitry, cannot ever equal this - even if limbs were short enough

05:06:32 mircea_popescu: actually i watched mosquitoes bite, and the head movement really resembles a tank tower.

05:06:37 mircea_popescu: it takes 2 seconds or so.

05:06:38 decimation: unless you dream up a robot ninja to fight on your behalf

05:06:54 mircea_popescu: decimation take your real self away from me!111

05:06:59 asciilifeform: perhaps i was thinking of a gnat, hm

05:07:07 decimation: hehe

05:07:10 mircea_popescu: well, scorpion, spider, etc.

05:07:23 mircea_popescu: plenty of good examples, no argument they move faster.

05:07:31 asciilifeform: the u.s. being collectively enamoured of anything that could be described as 'intelligence' is mega-news to me

05:07:51 mircea_popescu: ok. "sort of wankery they abusively call intelligence, cause they're dumb and ambitious" ?

05:08:12 asciilifeform: something like that. but now we've lost the specificity

05:08:36 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1061201 << ironically, this would actually explain the modern age.

05:08:36 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 00:01:13; asciilifeform: re: teleporter: there were actually people who refused to travel on steam locomotives because the soul can't keep up and will get lost

05:08:45 mircea_popescu: i'd read a technopunk sf novel working on this exact premise.

05:08:58 asciilifeform: that would be a mega-novel, yes

05:09:03 asciilifeform: i've thought about it myself

05:09:06 gabriel_laddel: Which US is this where "intelligence" is discussed?

05:09:09 mircea_popescu: "and then everything failed because well... everyone was in a bureaucracy, because the souls were like loist behind"

05:09:17 mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel reddit.

05:09:54 asciilifeform: perhaps somebody whose soul is still attached will write this book..

05:10:34 mircea_popescu: if i were 20 years younger i'd take the sluts to whatever cons on this premise.

05:10:45 mircea_popescu: we'd be a new sort of furry : the soulless! better than emo!

05:10:53 mircea_popescu: it'd prolly make a fucking tsunami of pointless.

05:11:03 mircea_popescu: any 16yo boys with a harem reading this ? go fer it!

05:11:45 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1061224 << wait, joos aren't allowed to touch women ?!

05:11:45 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 00:04:40; Adlai: probably to prevent physical contact with female flight attendants

05:12:17 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1061226 << i agree, the first thing i'd want to ask my long lost twin is if they wanna fuck.

05:12:17 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 00:04:53; jurov: i'd fuck myself. we'd only have to resort to reading /dev/random about who goes first.

05:14:43 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1061249 << enlighten me ?

05:14:43 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 00:07:42; nubbins`: examine the utter failure of logic by this man

05:17:28 *: decimation bids good evening

05:17:33 decimation: !down decimation

05:21:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3662 @ 0.0002912 = 1.0664 BTC [+]

05:32:35 nubbins`: mircea_popescu guy's protecting himself from the cemetery he's flying over

05:33:00 nubbins`: by... wrapping himself in clear plastic

05:33:43 asciilifeform: nubbins`: notice that only the 'graded for effort' hypothesis explains why the cellophane 'counts' but not the plastic in the fuselage

05:33:58 asciilifeform: (because, clearly, the latter was not put there by the hassid fella)

05:34:12 nubbins`: "i do my own plastic work"

05:34:42 nubbins`: it might as well be "i can fly over a cemetery as long as i'm playing tetris on a nintendo game boy"

05:34:52 asciilifeform: there is a little hassid enclave here where i live. they have the 'eruv' (ceremonial rope boundary) that establishes a zone where they can sorta do things on shabat

05:35:16 asciilifeform: the interesting thing, from where i stand is, 1) the rope 'counts' but the sidewalk it follows, or the line of trees - do not

05:35:23 nubbins`: seems taking once-practical advice to the point of absurdity

05:35:29 asciilifeform: 2) the rope is ill-maintained and often it is down or even in pieces

05:35:46 asciilifeform: and i have not been able to figure out why it is there on certain times but not others

05:40:14 mircea_popescu: nubbins` so ?

05:40:15 mats: https://www.sba-research.org/wp-content/uploads/publications/qrinception.pdf "QR Inception: Barcode-in-Barcode Attacks"

05:40:16 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HcXF8H )

05:40:32 mircea_popescu: ahahah

05:41:53 mircea_popescu: nubbins` to begin, is your position that this doesn't work or that this doesn't make sense ?

05:42:18 nubbins`: my position is that wtf is a plastic bag doing that the fuselage isn't

05:42:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61993 @ 0.00029437 = 18.2489 BTC [+] {3}

05:42:29 asciilifeform: nubbins`: provenance

05:42:45 mircea_popescu: nubbins` so you're arguing to ignorance ?

05:42:46 asciilifeform: nubbins`: once you understand how their religion works, it sorta clicks

05:43:14 asciilifeform: it's not just a perverse kind of engineering, where it's the plastic that matters

05:43:15 funkenstein_: QR code attacks <-- reminds me of "snowcrash"

05:44:07 asciilifeform: mats: packet-in-packet attack (see also, described in that neato phrack thing you linked to, i spent all day leafing through it, you wrecker you) or even frame-shift-mutation in genetics, etc

05:44:20 asciilifeform: or anybody who ever jumped in the middle of x86 instruction

05:44:24 mats: ya.

05:44:34 mats: reminds me a bit about goodspeed's zigbee hax

05:45:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually that was the lulz of all time, "malware detectors". except they didn't detect stuff half-register shifted did they.

05:45:30 mats: https://www.usenix.org/legacy/event/woot11/tech/final_files/Goodspeed.pdf

05:45:32 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HcYRZx )

05:45:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1001 variations on that theme

05:45:58 asciilifeform: !s polymorphic

05:45:59 assbot: 2 results for 'polymorphic' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=polymorphic

05:46:33 mircea_popescu: "oh, ffcd 21aa blabla ? you mean cd31 aaetc ?"

05:46:39 asciilifeform: aha.

05:46:55 mircea_popescu: "i dunno, never seen ffcd or 21aa in malware b4!!1"

05:47:08 asciilifeform: and folks still use signature-based 'detection'

05:47:16 mircea_popescu: myeah. because hey, enumerate badness.

05:47:22 asciilifeform: because 'whaddayamean i'm to be hanged for buying ibm'

05:47:51 asciilifeform: the funny part is that crapware artists, by and large, oblige

05:48:03 asciilifeform: and continue to bake idiocies readily detectable this way and not polymorphic one bit

05:48:11 asciilifeform: with 500kB of visual stoodio crud

05:48:35 mircea_popescu: the caught ones, at any rate.

05:48:50 asciilifeform: the intelligence of the hunter and the deer are, it seems, linked.

05:49:01 asciilifeform: neither finds it worthwhile to rocket far away from the other

05:49:13 mircea_popescu: but in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/793d96d71ffd561915f8c9c49f321e8d/tumblr_mimit0y2OI1rpyycwo1_1280.jpg

05:49:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HcZCBZ )

05:49:15 asciilifeform: (typically0

05:50:03 mircea_popescu: !up mogreen

05:51:20 mats: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2015/03/20/260513/operation-to-retake-tikrit-from.html

05:51:22 assbot: ISTANBUL: Operation to retake Tikrit from Islamic State stalled by heavy casualties, discord | Iraq | McClatchy DC ... ( http://bit.ly/1HcZXoe )

05:51:27 mats: ha. called it.

05:52:14 mircea_popescu: lol.

05:52:34 mircea_popescu: check itr out, b-a outintels dod.

05:52:52 asciilifeform: can anyone identify the weapon in the photo? looks like recoillessrifle - but which.

05:52:58 mircea_popescu: alf will, true to form, magick this success away.

05:53:12 asciilifeform: l0l success is when they're here

05:53:30 mircea_popescu: no. they made their prediction, we made ours.

05:53:34 mircea_popescu: they lost.

05:53:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44150 @ 0.00029637 = 13.0847 BTC [+] {2}

05:53:40 asciilifeform: wai they made a prediction ?

05:53:43 *: asciilifeform behind the times

05:53:51 mircea_popescu: well they did send the fucking thing eh ?

05:54:04 asciilifeform: does this necessarily imply a prediction ?

05:54:10 mircea_popescu: yes.

05:54:13 asciilifeform: perhaps usg sent the cannon fodder to die

05:54:20 mircea_popescu: nevertheless.

05:54:21 mats: looks like a Carl Gustav

05:54:26 mircea_popescu: maybe she cheated on you because she loves you.

05:54:30 mircea_popescu: she took the cock, she took the chances.

05:54:51 asciilifeform: mats: that one's shorter, no ?

05:55:09 mats: you're right

05:56:11 asciilifeform: found it, 'spg9'

05:56:28 asciilifeform: (СПГ-9)

05:57:20 mats: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fighting-isis-in-iraq-how-british-soldiers-and-other-european-troops-are-helping-train-the-peshmerga-10096952.html << based on this, i thought it may be a folgore

05:57:22 assbot: Fighting Isis in Iraq: How British soldiers and other European troops are helping train the Peshmerga - Middle East - World - The Independent ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hd15rQ )

05:59:04 mats: a sign of sleep deprivation. night

06:03:14 nubbins`: k, nite

06:08:33 asciilifeform: incidentally, any serious amateur historian of political engineering skullduggery will enjoy an account of the life and death of the recoilless rifle in '30s ussr.

06:09:23 asciilifeform: (built in vast numbers, apparently all maldesigned, head engineer goes from hero - at one point, monopolizer of virtually all cannon factories - to zero - shot in the head - within 7 years)

06:09:39 asciilifeform: not one recoilless cannon was fired, afaik, by ussr in ww2.

06:09:44 asciilifeform: all melted down.

06:11:00 asciilifeform: it is worth noting what precisely kurchevsky (the engineer) did.

06:11:19 asciilifeform: went with 'conversative' design where he took ordinary cannon of whatever kind, and sawed off the breech, replacing with funnel.

06:11:23 asciilifeform: so kept heavy barrel

06:11:37 asciilifeform: and retained the unwieldy bulk

06:11:49 asciilifeform: (no modern recoillness cannon works this way)

06:44:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28350 @ 0.00029411 = 8.338 BTC [-] {2}

06:45:48 mircea_popescu: more interesting is, why did he get away with it for long enough to become a prolbem

06:45:57 mircea_popescu: i guess i wouldn't make a very palatable politburo member.

06:46:13 mircea_popescu: but in other news, http://33.media.tumblr.com/acf990fa23a1a30bad4ca6c6e21af8a6/tumblr_ndu41h5Ot61ttr86so1_500.gif

06:46:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ATY4ch )

06:56:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12215 @ 0.00029808 = 3.641 BTC [+]

07:15:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51876 @ 0.00029198 = 15.1468 BTC [-] {4}

07:30:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00029398 = 6.4382 BTC [+]

07:35:50 cazalla: mircea_popescu: im thinking cazalla bingoboingo thestringpuller danielpbarron right off the bat, cazalla lemme know who else should go in the magic dozen. <<< pete_dushenski, PeterL might be interested, personally i think while nubbins` would do a great job, it's something i would look at once, put in cupboard and forget about

07:39:41 ben_vulpes: mats: that chip whisperer is going to hurt some butts.

08:02:10 ben_vulpes: <nubbins`> silkscreened business cards are ++ << lmk when you pony up for dies and presses

08:19:16 ben_vulpes: <trinque> jurov: had the thought once in meditation that I was always... hm... thinking everything I've ever experienced all the time << i've not read it but this was the proust routine, yeah?

08:36:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51035 @ 0.00028483 = 14.5363 BTC [-] {3}

08:43:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19900 @ 0.00028072 = 5.5863 BTC [-]

08:52:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15200 @ 0.00028072 = 4.2669 BTC [-]

08:54:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10565 @ 0.00028072 = 2.9658 BTC [-]

08:56:47 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [05:48] but in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/793d96d71ffd561915f8c9c49f321e8d/tumblr_mimit0y2OI1rpyycwo1_1280.jpg << you're repeating yourself

08:56:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1CHbLRW )

09:05:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00029398 = 3.5278 BTC [+]

09:46:00 Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=21-03-2015#1061968 << if you like it, you oughtta put a ring on it. and pay her father 50btc http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/rape/dt22_29a.html

09:46:00 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 05:11:45; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1061224 << wait, joos aren't allowed to touch women ?!

09:46:00 assbot: The Brick Testament ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ez36Mt )

09:58:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13550 @ 0.00029398 = 3.9834 BTC [+]

10:15:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72871 @ 0.00029554 = 21.5363 BTC [+] {5}

10:30:54 jurov: http://bitcoinist.net/introducing-cryptosteel-worlds-safest-cold-wallet-storage/

10:30:55 assbot: Introducing Cryptosteel: The World's Safest Cold Wallet Storage - Bitcoinist.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1xaq7YL )

10:31:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37200 @ 0.00029213 = 10.8672 BTC [-] {2}

10:32:22 jurov: lulzy

10:33:48 jurov: and the vid, too, looks like punishment for mircea's slavegirl :D

10:34:18 jurov: and wtf it needs $/@/euro/pound symbols?

10:42:20 jurov: !up dEBRUYNE

10:44:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37800 @ 0.0002909 = 10.996 BTC [-]

10:54:03 RagnarDanneskjol: trinque - i am occasionally using the nick for continued development on punks ver. if anyone here's partial to the name I can pass it over. Wow that xm42

11:31:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12434 @ 0.00028939 = 3.5983 BTC [-] {2}

11:32:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36066 @ 0.00028008 = 10.1014 BTC [-] {3}

11:35:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15500 @ 0.00027951 = 4.3324 BTC [-]

11:49:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52780 @ 0.00027943 = 14.7483 BTC [-] {2}

12:03:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47200 @ 0.00028019 = 13.225 BTC [+]

12:25:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46330 @ 0.00027847 = 12.9015 BTC [-]

12:37:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00027643 = 1.1886 BTC [-]

12:43:09 []bot: Bet created: "Gold to drop under $1000 before August 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1131/

12:45:52 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for Yes on "Gold to drop under $1000 before August 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1131/ Odds: 95(Y):5(N) by coin, 95(Y):5(N) by weight. Total bet: 1.1 BTC. Current weight: 99,999.

12:50:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7548 @ 0.00027643 = 2.0865 BTC [-]

12:59:54 mats: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zqrqe/update_on_my_foia_request_for_the_first_us/ >> "Pursuant to 28 C.F.R. § 16.8(d) and (f) , we initiated business submitter notification procedures.to provide the winning bidder (Tim Draper) an opportunity to object to disclosure of the purchase price. Mr. Draper submitted written objections to disclosure. "

12:59:55 assbot: Ow! -- reddit.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1LEIxrf )

13:34:24 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060745 << for the record, this user count bs... see stuff like http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=18-03-2015#1056265

13:34:24 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 21:10:47; felipelalli: mircea_popescu: Where can I find objective arguments against BTCJam? As a lending service and reputation system? And what are the alternatives for P2P lending or we don't have? They have 113,000 users, should they be ignored?

13:34:24 assbot: Logged on 18-03-2015 05:09:03; mircea_popescu: " Content preview: Dear Alare Kool, thank you for registering at Bitstamp exchange service! At this point you have just contributed a great deal to future of decentralized monetary market."

13:35:17 mircea_popescu: they have no users. just because the whatsapp scam was pushed by fb on the grounds of "users" (by the way, did the fantabulous "growth rate" continue after the acquisition ?) does not mean that the same sort of fraud will either work again in the future or is in itself any sort of value.

13:35:53 nubbins`: alare kool... from bangladesh?!!?

13:36:13 mircea_popescu: i have nfi.

13:37:23 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060780 << drunk anger does that. drink more water

13:37:23 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 21:34:56; BingoBoingo: I have the most intense hangover

13:39:02 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060802 << layflat for one volume would run you about 1200ish

13:39:02 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 21:40:35; ascii_field: not one can do 'lay flat' cover, for instance

13:39:52 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060821 << haha win.

13:39:52 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 21:44:19; danielpbarron: basically anything ascii wants in book form, I would probably also want

13:41:51 nubbins`: incidentally, here's a layflat binding

13:41:52 kakobrekla: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/03/18/want_to_dodge_nsa_supply_chain_taps_ask_cisco_for_a_dead_drop/

13:41:53 assbot: Cisco posts kit to empty houses to dodge NSA chop shops • The Register ... ( http://bit.ly/1DI9V3o )

13:41:53 nubbins`: http://www.halstan.co.uk/news/images/20130219-Binding-Otabind.jpg

13:41:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DI9W7c )

13:42:50 mircea_popescu: !up Tetra113

13:43:10 nubbins`: as you can see, the biggest thing is to not adhere the spine of the book block

13:43:54 nubbins`: downside is that the book block is now much less securely held in place

13:44:26 nubbins`: one cm-thick strip of glue on each outer page

13:44:51 Tetra113: good afternoon

13:44:52 nubbins`: here's another lay-flat: http://www.techscribe.co.uk/techw/images/layflat.jpg

13:44:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzsxNV )

13:44:56 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060850 << obligatory http://www.amosnews.ro/arhiva/joc-erotic-terminat-tragic-17-11-2005

13:44:56 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 21:48:38; ascii_field: in the sense that a typical artisan binder would probably react to my laser suggestion the same way my musical friends react to the suggestion of connecting my air compressor to the tuba

13:44:57 assbot: Joc erotic terminat tragic ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzsxO5 )

13:45:34 nubbins`: "after a colleague introduced them to the anus compressor hose"

13:45:45 nubbins`: dat machine translate

13:45:55 mircea_popescu: nubbins` 50 yo blue collar woman went after shift with coworkers, had compressed air hose stuck up ass.

13:45:56 mircea_popescu: died.

13:46:06 Tetra113: i was spending alot of time reading about bitcoin shares/stocks

13:46:08 kakobrekla: !s french block

13:46:10 assbot: 0 results for 'french block' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=french+block

13:46:16 nubbins`: i wonder had she ever seen an air compressor in use before?

13:46:16 kakobrekla: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150318/06273130352/french-government-starts-blocking-websites-with-views-govt-doesnt-like.shtml

13:46:18 assbot: French Government Starts Blocking Websites With Views The Gov't Doesn't Like | Techdirt ... ( http://bit.ly/1EzsAt6 )

13:46:18 mircea_popescu: Tetra113 where ?

13:46:25 mircea_popescu: nubbins` well it was her place of work eh.

13:46:30 nubbins`: specifically, had she ever seen the release valve opened on a full one?

13:46:33 Tetra113: mircea_popescu, mostly sites that appear written by you lol

13:46:39 mircea_popescu: lol

13:46:40 Tetra113: but anyway

13:46:41 nubbins`: if so, why in the world did she think her ass was a good place for that to happen?

13:46:55 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla i don't get it, is the french govt running an isp ?!

13:47:13 nubbins`: they're apparently running all of them 8)

13:47:25 mircea_popescu: nubbins` i dunno man, to me it's the crowning achievement of a particular sort of technopunk, which is what 50 years of soviet industry really is.

13:47:51 mircea_popescu: nubbins` you know just like who ? just like putin, except not the real one, the factitious version that "is holding country back" jurov was talking about.

13:47:51 kakobrekla: idk imma guess they just change the native dns and using an alternative one fixes this

13:48:05 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla used to work in china. for the first coupla years.

13:49:02 nubbins`: given that more people are familiar with changing DNS servers as a result of wanting to watch american netflix, you'll see the turnaround on these things get shorter

13:49:37 nubbins`: (you'd be amazed how many people who don't know what DNS stands for know what it does these days)

13:50:23 danielpbarron: height=290070 vs height=214008

13:51:14 Tetra113: mircea_popescu, how does one get in on bitcoin company shares?

13:51:41 mircea_popescu: what's that one trying to achieve ?

13:52:01 Tetra113: profit?

13:52:02 Tetra113: hehe

13:52:06 mircea_popescu: nubbins` noit that amazed, history of internet.

13:52:17 nubbins`: guess so hey

13:52:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62700 @ 0.00027537 = 17.2657 BTC [-] {2}

13:52:31 mircea_popescu: you'd be amazed how many monkeys click the blue e, too.

13:52:46 nubbins`: soon it won't be blue or an e!

13:52:57 mircea_popescu: the monkeys ain't going anywhere.

13:53:53 nubbins`: nope

13:54:36 nubbins`: meantime, if anyone happens to have come across a guide to Smyth Sewing (re: bookbinding), would be forever in your debt

13:54:48 mircea_popescu: i wonder idly if anyone even realises that the turing machine space has by now been explored MUCH more in depth than the human genetic space, for instance.

13:54:55 nubbins`: remarkably hard to find solid info on

13:55:11 mircea_popescu: ie, we've built a much larger % of the computers that could be than there's been people alive as a % of the people that could be.

13:55:32 nubbins`: i'd imagine so

13:56:47 mircea_popescu: nubbins` https://vimeo.com/42600794 ?

13:56:48 assbot: Process: Smyth Sewn Book Binding on Vimeo ... ( http://bit.ly/1DIbrCD )

13:57:19 nubbins`: ugh

13:57:20 chetty: <Tetra113> mircea_popescu, how does one get in on bitcoin company shares?// bitcoin company???????????

13:57:22 nubbins`: have seen that video

13:57:23 nubbins`: shows nothing

13:57:35 mircea_popescu: well that's all i had :D

13:59:03 mircea_popescu: "In fact, all the boring normal bugs are _way_ more important, just because

13:59:03 mircea_popescu: there's a lot more of them. I don't think some spectacular security hole

13:59:03 mircea_popescu: should be glorified or cared about as being any more "special" than a

13:59:03 mircea_popescu: random spectacular crash due to bad locking."

13:59:11 mircea_popescu: ahh, the sweet innocence of presnowden.

13:59:26 nubbins`: on the surface, it looks like a plain kettle-stitch binding, with the addition of those stress strips

13:59:28 Tetra113: chetty, yes obviously there has to be some company generating the value??

13:59:49 mircea_popescu: the crash is only important if it can be used to poison the stack. otherwise... it's just annoying.

14:00:06 mircea_popescu: Tetra113 so then find them and buy chunks.

14:00:10 nubbins`: Tetra113 ^

14:00:29 nubbins`: generally, one gets in on shares by buying them

14:01:47 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2015#1060883 << i thought it was hotels.

14:01:47 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2015 22:02:49; danielpbarron: one of the best places to get like-new Bibles is a used book store

14:02:52 Tetra113: so nubbins` where did you buy them?

14:03:12 nubbins`: Tetra113 what is "them"?

14:03:18 Tetra113: shares?

14:03:21 nubbins`: shares of what?

14:03:27 nubbins`: microsoft? cisco?

14:05:43 nubbins`: figure out your question in full before you start asking it, maybe

14:05:50 mircea_popescu: Tetra113 seriously, this isn't etrade in a different color scheme.

14:06:00 mircea_popescu: etrade only exists because that model's practically dead.

14:06:47 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1062072 << well maybe one day you run into a people. it's not impossible, even in tasmania!

14:06:47 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 07:35:50; cazalla: mircea_popescu: im thinking cazalla bingoboingo thestringpuller danielpbarron right off the bat, cazalla lemme know who else should go in the magic dozen. <<< pete_dushenski, PeterL might be interested, personally i think while nubbins` would do a great job, it's something i would look at once, put in cupboard and forget about

14:07:30 mircea_popescu: !s tumblr_mimit0y2OI1rpyycwo1_1280.jpg

14:07:30 assbot: 0 results for 'tumblr_mimit0y2OI1rpyycwo1_1280.jpg' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=tumblr_mimit0y2OI1rpyycwo1_1280.jpg

14:07:38 danielpbarron: i was planning on handing them out at porcfest as i attempt to interview people

14:07:42 mircea_popescu: lies ben_vulpes :D

14:07:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34398 @ 0.00027468 = 9.4484 BTC [-] {2}

14:07:51 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron cool plan.

14:09:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1062107 << moving eh ? all the better.

14:09:27 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 12:59:54; mats: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zqrqe/update_on_my_foia_request_for_the_first_us/ >> "Pursuant to 28 C.F.R. § 16.8(d) and (f) , we initiated business submitter notification procedures.to provide the winning bidder (Tim Draper) an opportunity to object to disclosure of the purchase price. Mr. Draper submitted written objections to disclosure. "

14:11:11 danielpbarron: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zrdxz/withdrawals_halted_as_stolen_evolution_coins_make/ << is this a qntra article?

14:11:12 assbot: Withdrawals halted as stolen evolution coins make their way to BTC-e : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1DId0jX )

14:12:13 mircea_popescu: may be yeah.

14:12:35 mircea_popescu: doesn't seem a terribly legit reason to stop withdrawals, who knows if they're piggybacking on it to excuse their own failure.

14:13:12 danielpbarron: it's a horrible reason to stop withdrawals

14:13:22 danielpbarron: and the only thing it hurts is themselves

14:13:39 mircea_popescu: so go for it.

14:14:14 mircea_popescu: in any case this "we attack bitcoin fungibility and expect to remain in business" angle has to be dispelled.

14:14:27 mircea_popescu: no one ever will survive trying to make one bitcoin unequal to another bitcoin.

14:14:54 mircea_popescu: this is a capital offense. mass arson, rape and murder is a tea party by comparison.

14:15:31 nubbins`: i wonder will they halt withdrawals when draper's stolen SR bitcoins start moving to exchanges?

14:15:46 nubbins`: by my count, guy's got a hundred bucks belonging to me

14:16:06 mircea_popescu: lol

14:16:22 nubbins`: actually, that'd be an interesting trace.

14:16:23 mircea_popescu: but this is exactly it, usg trying to insert itself into the process by "blessing bitcoins"

14:16:35 nubbins`: ^

14:16:38 mircea_popescu: much like you know, "you can'tr fuck this woman until this old man has sprinkled water on her"

14:16:40 mircea_popescu: "orly ? "

14:17:02 nubbins`: you can't be in charge until you fill out this paperwork!

14:17:17 mircea_popescu: "how about you fill in the paperwork while i keep on being in charge."

14:17:38 nubbins`: heh

14:18:26 danielpbarron: Update: BTC-e admins have reached out to Coin Fire to state that withdrawals have been re-enabled and that they have no further comments regarding the situation moving forward regarding this or any other security issue.

14:18:41 danielpbarron: is it still an article if they tapped out?

14:18:53 mircea_popescu: only if you absolutely want to.

14:19:08 mircea_popescu: "btc-e briefly stupid this morning", i guess.

14:19:48 mircea_popescu: it wouldn't necessartily be much more than editorializing, up to cazalla if he wants more of that or more news to balance things out.

14:20:42 danielpbarron: the story might be all the FEDs that swarm to reddit saying things like "see bitcoin isn't anonymous you better just use dollars!"

14:21:40 mircea_popescu: this is not terribly factual.

14:22:23 mircea_popescu: not every poltroonish german's a gestapo agent, not every poltroonish soviet's a kgb agent and not every reddit idjit's working for teh soup.

14:22:44 nubbins`: anyone happen to have any of the btc addresses used for the first sr auction?

14:24:02 mircea_popescu: 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX ?

14:25:15 mircea_popescu: going to 1Ez69SnzzmePmZX3WpEzMKTrcBF2gpNQ55, never spent.

14:25:31 mircea_popescu: since w/e, 9 months ago.

14:25:34 funkenstein_: btc-e grabs some easy publicity perhaps

14:26:14 mircea_popescu: sort-of like putting cockroaches in your pizza for easy publicity.

14:26:36 funkenstein_: so no bitcoin numismatics then? 2 BTC for my coin which was mined in 2010?

14:27:10 danielpbarron: how does that even work? you sell the private key?

14:27:12 mircea_popescu: nubbins` is the local numismatist

14:27:22 nubbins`: ^

14:27:37 funkenstein_: no i just transfer it as usual

14:28:18 nubbins`: i'm not sure that's the word you're looking for

14:29:02 danielpbarron: then you'd destroy all those coin-days which i thought was the thing you were trying to sell

14:29:07 nubbins`: pedigree coins

14:29:29 funkenstein_: not coin days but mining origin

14:29:42 mircea_popescu: http://dpaste.com/087PNN7 << best story ever, 10/10 would hire indian excel expert to literaturate again.

14:29:44 assbot: dpaste: 087PNN7 ... ( http://bit.ly/1DIeYAC )

14:30:31 nubbins`: funkenstein_ no better than fresh-minted coins?

14:31:58 funkenstein_: maybe you'd rather pay more for fresh minted coins, i hear some people prefer them

14:32:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62900 @ 0.00027742 = 17.4497 BTC [+] {2}

14:32:40 funkenstein_: based on hash rental rates

14:33:03 mircea_popescu: http://edge.org/conversation/the-normal-well-tempered-mind << you know this is easily the most disjointed, ridiculous and overall pointless piece of crap. "out of whack" three times ? the whole thing's an exercise in content-free derpage.

14:33:04 assbot: THE NORMAL WELL-TEMPERED MIND | Edge.org ... ( http://bit.ly/1DIfi2v )

14:34:12 funkenstein_: mircea_popescu, i thought it was interesting, but i guess not enough to finish it

14:35:47 mircea_popescu: there's some reasonable if banal shit floating around in a sea of very annoying nonsense. wtf is "out of whack" even supposed to mean, and since when is an ipad a better model of computing than a desktop.

14:35:53 mircea_popescu: but anyway, whatevs.

14:36:01 funkenstein_: lol sounds about right

14:36:06 funkenstein_: We're beginning to come to grips with the idea that your brain is not this well-organized hierarchical control system where everything is in order, a very dramatic vision of bureaucracy. <-- i liked that part

14:36:57 mircea_popescu: yes, obviously, people working on computational theories of human intelligence are basically correct and broadly irrelevant, yes people who were working on this 30 years ago are too stupiud to follow it, because hey, they didn't grow up with a computer, like i did, and yes culture consists of a lot of fleas and relatively little treasures.

14:37:48 mircea_popescu: and yes the brain's not a leviathan. nothing is. that only exists as a first line of fantasy, no place ever worked like that except in the bookish literotica of state-wankers.

14:37:54 nubbins`: yeah tim draper owes me at least a few bucks

14:38:01 mircea_popescu: about as sensible as the "paradise" of xtians, or ragnarok or w/e.

14:39:53 funkenstein_: some testing notes for mod6 http://dpaste.com/1EP63W5

14:39:55 assbot: dpaste: 1EP63W5: release notes, by funkenstein ... ( http://bit.ly/1DIg1R9 )

14:50:12 funkenstein_: and some bloggage fors ya http://frass.woodcoin.org/?p=39

14:50:13 assbot: The Dollar Market and a Game Theory Example | Free your Frass ... ( http://bit.ly/1IaOruB )

14:51:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00027609 = 6.4053 BTC [-]

14:52:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22973 @ 0.0002759 = 6.3383 BTC [-] {2}

15:11:25 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Gold to drop under $1000 before August 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1131/ Odds: 50(Y):50(N) by coin, 50(Y):50(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.1 BTC. Current weight: 99,907.

15:14:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51450 @ 0.00027456 = 14.1261 BTC [-] {2}

15:19:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27800 @ 0.00028 = 7.784 BTC [+] {3}

15:21:41 nubbins`: "This second pillar of Legion Theory might appear to be an unnecessary complication to our model. Dare we say, an “intellectual wank”. "

15:21:45 nubbins`: i like these guys

15:26:03 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell funkenstein_ could that thing stop being disqus

15:26:05 gribble: The operation succeeded.

15:26:05 mircea_popescu: ;;google "Legion Theory"

15:26:06 gribble: Legion Theory - Theory & Psychology - Sage Publications: http://tap.sagepub.com/content/17/6/839.abstract; Legion Theory 1 Legion Theory: A meta-psychology Mark L ...: http://www.legiontheory.com/pdf/Legion_Theory.pdf; Legion Theory: http://www.legiontheory.com/DID_Freud.html

15:26:19 mircea_popescu: heh mk.

15:59:09 thestringpuller: lol slush adds css to site everyone is like "this is best site ever"

15:59:25 thestringpuller: smoke and mirrors make the derps go oooh and ahh

15:59:53 fluffypony: OMG I MUST SWITCH

15:59:57 fluffypony: CSS

15:59:57 fluffypony: JS

15:59:58 fluffypony: BEST

15:59:58 fluffypony: EVER

16:01:41 thestringpuller: ^- pretty good impression fluffypony

16:01:47 fluffypony: I try

16:01:53 fluffypony: my redditard is a little rusty

16:02:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9458 @ 0.00028129 = 2.6604 BTC [+]

16:12:56 Adlai: dogecoin rallied after they added css3 moon rocket upvote animations

16:13:46 fluffypony: so this is good for bitcoin?

16:14:05 Adlai: the next difficulty adjustment is critical

16:14:20 thestringpuller: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zrdxz/withdrawals_halted_as_stolen_evolution_coins_make/

16:14:30 fluffypony: lol Adlai

16:15:23 danielpbarron: thestringpuller, they resumed withdrawls

16:20:16 danielpbarron: someone should tell the exit scammers about bitbit as an option for mixing

16:21:06 Adlai: how is that any good? if you know somebody's betting address, you can see their winnings on the site

16:23:41 danielpbarron: yeah but you can't see it on the block chain

16:31:18 mats: there are private bets

16:32:51 nubbins`: so auto.sh will compile everything up to bitcoind itself

16:33:08 nubbins`: at which point incompatibilities in ld crop up and grind the thing to a halt

16:33:08 kakobrekla: private bets are public, just need a password to request a deposit address

16:33:18 kakobrekla: also, there are none.

16:33:26 kakobrekla: i dont recall if there ever was an approved one

16:34:11 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=813233.msg10841000#msg10841000

16:34:12 assbot: Casascius 10BTC Silver Round /w Gold B ... ( http://bit.ly/1BikwLq )

16:45:56 mircea_popescu: <Adlai> how is that any good? if you know somebody's betting address, you can see their winnings on the site << not how that works.

16:46:30 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla i dun recall one either.

16:46:43 mircea_popescu: not sure why we put it in, but i think it was the usual "customer request" stuff

16:49:08 Adlai: let's say i've identified a certain address A as coins that are "not welcome here". i see it move coin to address B, so i sniff around and notice that B is a deposit address on bitbet, with winnings going to C. i add C to the list of unwelcome money.

16:50:06 *: Adlai is equally amused from "lalala taint doesn't exist" and "lalala bitcoin doesn't exist"

16:50:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12850 @ 0.00027392 = 3.5199 BTC [-]

16:51:07 mircea_popescu: you really should read the logs, this was discussed ad nauseam.

16:51:16 mircea_popescu: address A with your "taint" may lose to address B. what now ?

16:51:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12850 @ 0.00027392 = 3.5199 BTC [-]

16:51:41 Adlai: then the idiot using a betting site as a tumbler, got what they deserved

16:51:41 mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of "lalala taint doesn't exit". taint exists exactly as much and exactly for the reasons god "exists"

16:51:48 mircea_popescu: some idiots can't cope otherwise.

16:52:26 mircea_popescu: Adlai didja eat dumb this morning ? i put 100 btc on one side, of your taint, and 100 btc on the other side, you don't know about. if one wins now you've gotta taint 2x as manby btc, if the other wins you lost track.

16:53:25 *: Adlai sighs

16:53:57 mircea_popescu: but really, the notion of taint is only recurring because people are stupid, and do not wish to think. otherwise, taint is meaningless.

16:54:58 Adlai: taint in as meaningful as the person you're trying to do business with thinks it is

16:55:32 Adlai: but whether or not it's meaningful to a specific incident, it still exists

16:56:11 mircea_popescu: it exists to the degree the madonna-whore exists.

16:56:29 mircea_popescu: yes, some idiots have trouble with reality, replace it with neurosis. this to the detriment of them and anyone trusting them.

16:57:08 mircea_popescu: like any other stereotype, like the nigger thief/rapist, the dumb woman, the jew cooking christian children etc, it "exists" in the minds of the stupid,

16:57:14 mircea_popescu: and it recurs because stupid is really a very narrow space.

16:58:58 Adlai: no. you're confusing between value in the minds of people holding a bill, and fingerprints on its surface. one exists in the mind, the other is evidence. it could be misleading evidence, but it is there.

16:59:07 mircea_popescu: taint != fingerprints.

16:59:26 mircea_popescu: in that fingerprints are on the bill, and taint is in the mind, wholly imagined.

17:00:56 Adlai: do we agree that utxos exist?

17:01:02 mircea_popescu: yes.

17:02:30 Adlai: ok, what i'm calling "taint" is the tree constructed by recursively collecting the inputs that led in to each utxo

17:02:55 Adlai: a better word for this could be "signing history", but whatever it is, it exists. you can ask what the history of any utxo is, and you get a graph of signatures

17:03:28 Adlai: blockchain.info pander to idiots by misrepresenting this as taint(address1,address2) = percentage

17:04:31 Adlai: it's much more complicated than a single number, same as you can't scalarize "trust" - but taint as i've defined it exists, in the blockchain - outside of the mind.

17:05:09 mircea_popescu: no, what you're calling taint is a particularly dumb implementation of "smart contracts", ie, overloading txn with "meaning" that's really in your own head. see also http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-03-2015#1058300

17:05:09 assbot: Logged on 19-03-2015 21:32:58; fluffypony: "release the money to mircea_popescu if I send the money to mircea_popescu" is about the sum total of it

17:05:31 Adlai: uh what?

17:05:36 Adlai: this has nothing to do with it

17:05:42 mircea_popescu: uniquely among dumb implementation of "smart contracts", this doesn't even involve the actual parties to the txn, but third parties.

17:05:48 mircea_popescu: you wish. it's exactly what it is.

17:06:33 Adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=14-02-2015#1018795

17:06:33 assbot: Logged on 14-02-2015 18:06:59; mircea_popescu: lol kay.

17:07:10 mircea_popescu: the "signing history" is entirely meaningless. the TOTAL information it conveys is already conveyed, and spent. there is NO MORE in there, at all, nothing whatsoever.

17:07:52 Adlai: lalala!

17:08:01 mircea_popescu: hey, what can i tell you.

17:08:22 Adlai: "i understand what you're saying and insist on attacking a strawman"

17:08:45 nubbins`: Adlai

17:08:49 Adlai: nubbins`

17:08:52 mircea_popescu: i understand what you are saying, and i also understand why it's stupid. you have the option to pretend like you don't see it, or not. nothing i can do thar.

17:08:58 nubbins`: perhaps i can explain this succinctly, as i had this same convo some time ago

17:09:13 nubbins`: let's use an example

17:09:15 nubbins`: https://bitbet.us/bet/786/bitcoin-to-surpass-berkshire-as-an-investment/

17:09:15 assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin to surpass Berkshire as an investment :: 1121.15 B (20%) on Yes, 4393.47 B (80%) on No | closed 1 month 4 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1MYAYXH )

17:09:32 nubbins`: examine the first "no" bet, which won 0.05280995 btc

17:09:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.0002726 = 2.7533 BTC [-] {2}

17:09:45 nubbins`: input address is 16u2vFY3w6j18KZ6WxtiJpGeZfXnyyK7NM

17:09:54 nubbins`: payout address is 1F3fzDm5yM5dsPmP9andV2UJgSvrsLHXXm

17:10:09 nubbins`: here's the link between the two:

17:10:11 nubbins`: https://bitiodine.net/a2a/16u2vFY3w6j18KZ6WxtiJpGeZfXnyyK7NM/1F3fzDm5yM5dsPmP9andV2UJgSvrsLHXXm

17:10:13 assbot: BitIodine - Find paths ... ( http://bit.ly/1MYBchq )

17:10:37 Adlai: no, here's the link: https://bitbet.us/bet/786/bitcoin-to-surpass-berkshire-as-an-investment/#b2

17:10:38 assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin to surpass Berkshire as an investment :: 1121.15 B (20%) on Yes, 4393.47 B (80%) on No | closed 1 month 4 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1MYBhlj )

17:10:41 nubbins`: so now you're left with... some random betting website that says the two addresses are owned by the same entity, with no further evidence to back it up

17:10:59 nubbins`: that's not a link

17:11:23 nubbins`: i could just create a static copy of bitbet w/ a web crawler and create all the "links" i want

17:11:30 nubbins`: does that mean they exist?

17:11:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9250 @ 0.00027237 = 2.5194 BTC [-]

17:11:53 mircea_popescu: i very much doubt that after he ignored the "if one wins now you've gotta taint 2x as manby btc, if the other wins you lost track." bit he's in a position to grok this one, but hey.

17:11:57 *: mircea_popescu watches curiously.

17:12:09 nubbins`: there's nothing on the blockchain to link the two addresses

17:12:19 nubbins`: and if there's nothing on the blockchain to link them

17:12:28 nubbins`: then you're just trusting the word of some guy who runs a website.

17:12:29 Adlai: there are a bunch of different concepts which are getting wrapped up together as "taint" so let's stop using that word, it's about as helpful as "jew"

17:12:43 mircea_popescu: can we move to "celestial teapot" ?

17:13:09 nubbins`: okay

17:13:12 mircea_popescu: (pls do not lalala-ignore my celestial teapot, it triggers me)

17:13:47 nubbins`: so let's go back to unwelcome money

17:14:01 mircea_popescu: teapot money ?

17:14:03 nubbins`: why is 1F3fzDm5yM5dsPmP9andV2UJgSvrsLHXXm unwelcome money? because it's listed as an output address on http://bitbet.us?

17:14:04 assbot: BitBet ... ( http://bit.ly/1C9Uteb )

17:14:30 trinque: RagnarDanneskjol | trinque - i am occasionally using the nick for continued development on punks ver. << no problemo; deedbot- works for me

17:14:34 mircea_popescu: fucking hell, "unwelcome money" is about as self-consistent as "human dignity" or "representative democracy"

17:15:02 Adlai: the "this is just text on a betting website" doesn't get the 'electric anthill' any further from your anus

17:15:08 nubbins`: groan

17:15:09 Adlai: the "..." *defense

17:15:18 Adlai: ie, the information is there, should somebody wish to act on it

17:15:22 nubbins`: so then why don't we just ask mp to create a dummy bet page, and list tim draper's stash as the output?

17:15:33 nubbins`: his coins will be ruined

17:15:35 nubbins`: right?

17:15:55 mircea_popescu: Adlai are you discussing rule of law or rule of thugs ?

17:15:56 Adlai: not if he doesn't touch the winnings

17:16:03 nubbins`: now you're talking about electric anthills

17:16:11 mircea_popescu: cause i am really not interested in persuading thugs of anything through any method other than clubbing to death.

17:16:17 Adlai: electric anthill = rule of thugs

17:16:23 nubbins`: WHAT WINNINGS?

17:16:25 mircea_popescu: so then why is ANY oif it relevant lol.

17:16:40 nubbins`: https://blockchain.info/address/1F3fzDm5yM5dsPmP9andV2UJgSvrsLHXXm

17:16:42 assbot: Bitcoin Address 1F3fzDm5yM5dsPmP9andV2UJgSvrsLHXXm ... ( http://bit.ly/1C9UT4i )

17:16:48 nubbins`: show me where the "winnings" were transferred

17:16:56 mircea_popescu: obviously whatever random thug is going to make randomly unsubstantiated claims and pretend like they hold water. so what of it ?

17:16:57 nubbins`: all i see is some random coin moving around

17:17:02 mircea_popescu: this isn't something to be approached rationally.

17:17:42 Adlai: if you know that an enemy is profiling you, one approach is simply to evade the profile

17:17:58 nubbins`: Adlai a random website taking two random unlinked transactions and placing them side-by-side on a random page does not constitute even the /scent/ of proof

17:18:25 mircea_popescu: Adlai never interrupt the enemy while he's making a mistake.

17:18:30 nubbins`: i don't know how simpler to put it

17:18:31 mircea_popescu: let 'em "profile" until they fall over.

17:19:39 mircea_popescu: i guess it's "good for the economy". heck, they're tracking "uniques", for all the good that did anyone. we still have to see the extra ounce of soap or w/e that was sold because of it, but hey.

17:19:49 nubbins`: this is like pasting up a leaflet that says "main street intersects 3rd avenue" and then arguing that's the intersection you lost your wallet, even though the map says impossible

17:20:09 nubbins`: because main and 3rd run parallel

17:20:15 Adlai: one approach to combating terrorism is to refuse to be terrorized, on a societal level. another, on an individual level, is not to "ask for it". these are not mutually exclusive.

17:20:27 nubbins`: "but the leaflet says this intersection exists, so we must investigate the crime"

17:21:21 nubbins`: geez, where'd the counter-argument go

17:22:16 mircea_popescu: Adlai wait, what ?

17:22:30 mircea_popescu: what you're describing is the exact avenue to encourage terrorism.

17:23:19 trinque: look at how she was dressed; the slut was asking for it -> niqab

17:23:34 nubbins`: hm

17:23:47 nubbins`: is the intersection of these two approaches to STFU and take whatever happens?

17:24:15 nubbins`: do you measure your other-cheek-turning in x1000 rpm or what?

17:24:37 Adlai: in the case of 'taint', it's: treat bitcoin as fungible, but don't make life easier for those who don't

17:24:53 nubbins`: <+Adlai> there are a bunch of different concepts which are getting wrapped up together as "taint" so let's stop using that word, it's about as helpful as "jew"

17:24:54 nubbins`: try again

17:25:03 nubbins`: protip: if you can't state your position...

17:25:05 *: Adlai used that word intentionally

17:25:19 mircea_popescu: im pretty sure no-ones making life easier for idiots, here.

17:25:50 nubbins`: my being here is probably making life harder for at least a handful of people

17:25:50 mircea_popescu: hence the bitbet model, hence the reusing of addresses etc etc, numerous specific measures to hinder the little solace idiots a la power rangers etc are trying to give the "defungibilize bitcoin" party.

17:26:24 mircea_popescu: not that any of these are critical, but yes, some hopes are fun to ruin.

17:28:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80218 @ 0.00027598 = 22.1386 BTC [+] {2}

17:28:13 nubbins`: occasionally i burn fun-sized blocks of btc just to make things a bit more tangly

17:33:38 asciilifeform: the "this is just text on a betting website" doesn't get the 'electric anthill' any further from your anus << aha. this was also my objection, if anyone recalls.

17:34:02 asciilifeform: list tim draper's stash as the output? his coins will be ruined << no, they won't. because he's aryan.

17:34:15 asciilifeform: are you discussing rule of law or rule of thugs << thugs

17:34:42 asciilifeform: not interested in persuading thugs of anything through any method other than clubbing to death << what exterminator do i call. we're overrun.

17:35:21 Adlai: G.BUST

17:35:30 asciilifeform: random thug is going to make randomly unsubstantiated claims << here lies the boojum. it isn't unsubstantiated. mr thug is looking for which arse to stuff the soldering iron in, rather than trying to prove something to a jury

17:37:19 asciilifeform: the info on, e.g., 'bitbet' www, -could- be random garbage - but it -isn't-

17:37:34 asciilifeform: this isn't, again, a jurist's 'reasonable doubt' standard

17:37:47 asciilifeform: it's thug logic, and some of us live in thugschwitz

17:38:46 nubbins`: then i guess you better not use bit(bet/coin)

17:38:48 *: asciilifeform waits for mircea_popescu to recite the proverbial 'if it hurts, don't do that' doctoring.

17:38:53 nubbins`: XD

17:41:05 mod6: <+funkenstein_> some testing notes for mod6 http://dpaste.com/1EP63W5 << thanks for the testing notes!

17:41:06 assbot: dpaste: 1EP63W5: release notes, by funkenstein ... ( http://bit.ly/1C9ZpzN )

17:42:09 danielpbarron: oh mod6 just the guy i want to see

17:42:20 danielpbarron: how would i go about compiling your bitcoind for macppc?

17:43:14 mod6: <+nubbins`> so auto.sh will compile everything up to bitcoind itself << ah! ok. log/breadcrumbs help here : log output with uname -a and other important info is good to capture for a solid bug report.

17:43:20 mod6: thanks for testing nubbins`

17:44:52 mod6: danielpbarron: hmm. well, first, you'd have to get the libs to build for the correct arch. does mac still use ppc? thought it was x86? but either way, you get the libs built, and then there might be some tweaks that can be done to get the makefile into shape for osx or w/e.

17:45:08 *: mod6 looks

17:45:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33835 @ 0.00027237 = 9.2156 BTC [-]

17:45:40 danielpbarron: i have some old macs

17:47:46 mod6: ah so PPC

17:48:50 mod6: well, we'd have to spend some time just making sure we have the correct configure/compile flags set for openssl/bdb/boost and then create a patch or derivative of auto.sh for ppc-mac

17:49:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53478 @ 0.00027683 = 14.8043 BTC [+] {2}

17:49:36 mod6: then a makefile.osx would have to be modified and re-added to the package once working.

17:50:27 mod6: im probably least clue'd on the mac side. if I had an environment to play on for a while, i could probably get it to work.

17:50:34 asciilifeform: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/03/19/cansecwest_talk_bioses_hack << mega-l0l

17:50:35 assbot: Noobs can pwn world's most popular BIOSes in two minutes • The Register ... ( http://bit.ly/1BFRvJw )

17:50:53 mod6: but others might have faster/better-luck/more knowledge on that than ole mod6

17:54:21 mod6: http://www.boost.org/users/history/version_1_52_0.html << so it says that osx is supported here, but does this only indicate that it supports x86 of OSX?

17:54:31 mod6: looks like it :/

17:54:33 danielpbarron: what about VAX ?

17:54:44 danielpbarron: http://www.openbsd.org/vax.html

17:54:45 assbot: OpenBSD/vax ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ca1PhR )

17:55:12 danielpbarron: OpenBSD still supports this for the purpose of finding bugs that would otherwise go unnoticed on modern speedy systems

17:55:40 mod6: eh, i'm not sure on VAX either. i've never used it. it doesn't look like boost supports it.

17:56:55 mod6: but maybe someday we can get builds/patches created to build/configure for these seperate arch's. who knows.

17:57:02 danielpbarron: https://books.google.com/books?id=PN6Xy9zWAbsC&pg=PR36&lpg=PR36

17:57:04 assbot: Absolute OpenBSD, 2nd Edition: UNIX for the Practical Paranoid - Michael W. Lucas - Google Boeken ... ( http://bit.ly/1BFRIwk )

17:59:01 danielpbarron: https://i.imgur.com/nup9VqD.png << for those who hate google

17:59:02 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BFRKo2 )

17:59:57 mod6: yeah. ok. so supporting stuff like VAX/Amiga/SGI/Sparc etc are going to take time and resources ... maybe someday we get there, who knows. but first we just wanna get it working for like x86 obsd, and other Tier1 platforms first.

18:00:33 mod6: heck, i'd love to get an R.I. running on an UltraSPARC II box or something.

18:00:54 mod6: it's just not time well spent for me atm since no one even has that stuff any more. :]

18:01:20 danielpbarron: yeah obviously get it working on whatever most people use these days

18:01:43 mod6: i saw thay you're getting close to 300k blocks on pogo, that's great work. keep it up!

18:02:09 danielpbarron: and if you liked that paragraph i quoted there, it's from "Absolute OpenBSD" by Michael W. Lucas

18:02:12 mod6: i feel like the pogo is hugely important for getting a large amount of nodes out there with, that's really exciting.

18:02:20 danielpbarron: i own this book and recommend it to others

18:02:26 mod6: i've gotta get one going here myself.

18:03:17 mod6: yeah I read the two paragraphs there "portability" and "power".

18:03:50 danielpbarron: apparently you can read the book on google? idk how that works

18:03:59 mod6: it seems like a decent read. i feel like i my have read that book like a million-internet years ago.

18:04:06 danielpbarron: says you can buy it for 30+ USD on the side

18:04:15 mod6: im old-school. i like real books.

18:04:27 mod6: but yeah, i've certainly seen it in stores.

18:04:36 danielpbarron: maybe it's because that particular section is part of the pre-page numbers section

18:04:49 danielpbarron: roman numeral page numbers

18:05:09 mod6: yeah, i saw that. usually on-line, you get a certain amount of sections to preview.

18:05:13 mod6: (for free)

18:05:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's no relation between addresses and identities.

18:05:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: except when a man is sitting on a stake, and they have his decrypted wallet ?

18:06:04 mod6: huh, weird, this one looks like you can read a lot of it...

18:06:08 mircea_popescu: but this is ex post facto.

18:06:38 asciilifeform: or, say, sr is busted and a number of addresses turns up there. then link between them and sr.

18:06:43 asciilifeform: am i missing something ?

18:07:21 mircea_popescu: "them" addresses. so ?

18:07:27 mircea_popescu: you gonna arrest an address ?

18:08:40 mircea_popescu: "The point is less about how vendors don't fix the problems, and more how the vendors' fixes are going un-applied by users, corporations, and governments." << orly. how about the point is all about how "vendors" create bugs.

18:08:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16500 @ 0.00027237 = 4.4941 BTC [-]

18:08:59 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: need the magic eyeglasses to see that point, apparently

18:09:07 asciilifeform: because nobody but us appears to

18:09:27 asciilifeform: 'apply fixes, fixes, now!111!111'

18:09:44 mircea_popescu: "The LightEater attack would take an unskilled attacker such as a maid or border guard two minutes of physical access to a target laptop."

18:09:45 mircea_popescu: ahem

18:14:11 mircea_popescu: anyway, since this "taint" bs keeps popping up, maybe a retrospective is a good idea. like http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-06-2014#716247

18:14:11 assbot: Logged on 13-06-2014 02:34:16; mircea_popescu: anyway, the fact that bitcoin is not actually traceable, and all the sophistry of taint can at most produce persuasion is one of the largest points of pressure applied by bitcoin to human society. it may result in the "reasonable doubt" standard being taken out.

18:17:00 mircea_popescu: and where the heck's that 2013 bitbet discussion

18:19:42 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2014#470127 still not it hot damn

18:19:42 assbot: Logged on 31-01-2014 16:43:16; mircea_popescu: since you can by design make zero-delta bets, and since the fee is 1%... bitbet is partly the reason why mixer services sort-of died last year, i'd guess.

18:22:59 asciilifeform: re: bios: every portable computer i've opened in the past decade or so had the system bios stored in an eight-legged spi eeprom. one of the legs is a write-enable. in principle, not so hard to desolder & ground it.

18:23:24 danielpbarron: in looking for a link, i found a typo in this page -> http://fraudsters.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/

18:23:25 assbot: Guidance : There Is No Such Thing As Bitcoin Taint. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ca77d8 )

18:23:45 mircea_popescu: whats the typo ?

18:23:52 danielpbarron: Retarded pieces like what Matonis is retweeting of late (shame on you man, seriously) are powerless in this matter, << links to fraudsters instead of twitter

18:25:09 danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-02-2014#520177

18:25:09 assbot: Logged on 20-02-2014 19:47:58; mircea_popescu: why "you" ?

18:25:58 mircea_popescu: ah yes danielpbarron has it.

18:26:01 mircea_popescu: ty

18:33:12 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/guidance-there-is-no-such-thing-as-bitcoin-taint/#footnote_3_52853 <<< ahahaha.

18:33:13 assbot: Guidance : There Is No Such Thing As Bitcoin Taint. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1HfJIGW )

18:33:19 mircea_popescu: anyone guess what that hinted at ?

18:37:50 danielpbarron: USG asking MPEx if so-and-so is a customer?

18:38:22 danielpbarron: or if such-and-such a bet was from whatever exit scam ?

18:40:10 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/interacting-with-fiat-institutions-a-guide/

18:40:11 assbot: Interacting with fiat institutions, a guide pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1HfLckB )

18:40:22 danielpbarron: or uh.. USG guy joins IRC and identifies himself as such

18:40:37 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2014#643118 << and since we're digging through logs... remember back when the scam foundation was "giving generous grants" ?

18:40:37 assbot: Logged on 25-04-2014 17:49:10; mircea_popescu: "After scoring a major grant awarded by the Bitcoin Foundation, Coinpunk?s beta version is finally available. The project, which is being developed by the veteran startup founder Kyle Drake, intends to build the first fully open-source, self-hosted do-it-yourself Bitcoin wallet service that you can run on your own server."

18:40:39 danielpbarron: signs message with GPG key hosted on a .gov

18:49:18 felipelalli: mircea_popescu: thank you for the answers and the link. I'll have a look on it before comment again.

18:49:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40600 @ 0.00027624 = 11.2153 BTC [+]

18:49:54 mircea_popescu: np.

18:50:04 nubbins`: i'll probably get a makefile.osx done up at some point

18:50:14 nubbins`: in order for it to compile all the deps, there's only a couple trivial changes to make

18:50:22 nubbins`: s/sha256sum/shasum -a 256/ etc

18:50:34 mircea_popescu: http://40.media.tumblr.com/d680f19e948db3a6f204280efa2bf7a5/tumblr_mwq1dag5pw1t1c22co1_1280.jpg << dat tit hang.

18:50:36 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HfNqQP )

18:51:00 nubbins`: s/MSG_NOSIGNAL/SO_NOSIGPIPE/ in irc.cpp and net.cpp

18:51:04 nubbins`: 'bout it

18:51:35 felipelalli: mircea_popescu: just one question mark: do you call fraud what does not have the "min. quality expected for that service" or something else?

18:52:12 nubbins`: mod6 the rest of the issues seem to be differences between bsd/osx 'ld' and linux 'ld'

18:52:17 nubbins`: flags missing etc

18:52:25 mircea_popescu: felipelalli there's a difference between making cars as in, making a trabant, making cars as in, making a cardboard cut-out of a car, and making cars as in, making ford pintos, which explode killing their passengers.

18:52:41 nubbins`: mostly surrounding the static-build part of it, fwiw

18:52:47 nubbins`: *static-link

18:52:57 mircea_popescu: the main problem in commerce is that the most dangerous of these is the last, and the most readily identified by the consumer is the first.

18:53:04 felipelalli: mircea_popescu: got it!

18:53:32 felipelalli: makes sense.

18:53:40 mircea_popescu: so you know, "it seems to be working" is a very bad heuristic for stuff like this.

18:53:57 mircea_popescu: the fact that it's not intuitively obvious is not accidental, but part of the problem.

18:54:26 mircea_popescu: the only similar situation i can imagine is self medication in medicine, where person goes to pharmacy swallows random pill for random ailment.

18:54:50 mircea_popescu: it "seems to be working" because placebo effect, a sugar pill "seems to be working", and then six months later guy with tb is dead of iodine poisoning or w/e.

18:55:38 felipelalli: but sometimes is hard to point objectivally where is the "bomb" inside the car. Sometimes we have just some clues. And they'll know only after explode.

18:56:01 felipelalli: the same to your pharmacy example.

18:56:59 felipelalli: you can say "this box seems weird" (like violated e.g.) but you'll only know after die.

18:57:17 felipelalli: I read your BTCJam article on fraudsters

18:58:22 felipelalli: and I didn't find anything very objective, but I guess you're trying to find clues that points something is weird. But after using the system, you can understand for example how joke is they reputation system.

18:59:39 felipelalli: is *their

19:02:31 felipelalli: mircea_popescu: a P2P lending system totally based on OTC WoT system would you consider a fraud as well or it could be something good?

19:03:10 felipelalli: I mean, rabbit out of this hat or not? This type of service is lost case?

19:11:49 thestringpuller: felipelalli: the scam is that reputation is built nominally on btcjam vs. WoT

19:13:50 thestringpuller: s/the/a

19:15:02 thestringpuller: another scam is the repayment rate

19:15:08 thestringpuller: it's just scam on top of scam

19:15:28 thestringpuller: !up vorandrew

19:15:48 vorandrew: thanks... the problem with p2p lending - it one sided market

19:16:23 vorandrew: for example.. I wan to get loan... I want to get $95 and repay $100 in 2 months

19:16:59 vorandrew: If somebody can bet money that I will not pay it back - it will be incentive

19:17:34 vorandrew: for example bid/ask for Mr.X loan is .89-0.93

19:17:56 vorandrew: means he wants to sell his debt for 93 cents a dollar

19:18:11 vorandrew: and somebody wants to buy his debt for 89 cents a dollar

19:18:25 vorandrew: let's say I'm sure he is not going to repay

19:19:16 vorandrew: If I have opportunity to put aside with escrow 1 dollar and sell his debt for 89 cents

19:19:31 vorandrew: I will be risking 11 cents if he is gonna repay

19:19:43 vorandrew: and 89 cents in profit in case he is in default

19:20:08 vorandrew: so this BTCJAM (or any other one way market)

19:20:20 vorandrew: is kind of pump and dump scheme

19:20:41 vorandrew: you repay all year just to get max rating

19:21:00 vorandrew: and boom! - just default on 660K BTC :)

19:22:20 vorandrew: now imagine - 1 day before debt expiration - prices should be near 0.99

19:22:40 vorandrew: risking 1 cent in order to get 99 - not to shabby risk/reward ratio

19:24:15 *: asciilifeform walks in and #b-a is about... assets! wonders if he fell into a time warp

19:24:55 thestringpuller: asciilifeform is actually the flash

19:25:00 thestringpuller: and ran to fast and it now in 2012

19:37:36 nubbins`: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/odin-s-birthday-celebrated-by-social-media-supporters-1.3004041

19:37:37 assbot: Odin's birthday celebrated by social media supporters - Toronto - CBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1xopTNX )

19:37:39 nubbins`: smh

19:37:42 mod6: <+nubbins`> mod6 the rest of the issues seem to be differences between bsd/osx 'ld' and linux 'ld' << ah ok, yeah.

19:37:44 nubbins`: what happens next year?

19:37:59 vorandrew: ;;price

19:37:59 gribble: Error: "price" is not a valid command.

19:38:20 asciilifeform: nubbins`: mega-disappointment

19:38:27 asciilifeform: -that-'s odin!?!

19:38:27 nubbins`: https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/qa/qa1118/_index.html

19:38:29 assbot: Technical Q&A QA1118: Statically linked binaries on Mac OS X ... ( http://bit.ly/1xopXNH )

19:38:35 nubbins`: admittedly not sure if related ^

19:38:37 nubbins`: asciilifeform right?

19:38:57 asciilifeform: 'Apple does not support statically linked binaries on Mac OS X. A statically linked binary assumes binary compatibility at the kernel system call interface, and we do not make any guarantees on that front. Rather, we strive to ensure binary compatibility in each dynamically linked system library and framework.'

19:38:59 asciilifeform: ahahahahaha.

19:39:21 vorandrew: ;;help

19:39:21 gribble: The bot responds when you start a line with the ! character. A good starting point for exploring the bot is the !facts command. You can also visit the bot's website for a list of help topics and documentation: http://gribble.sourceforge.net/

19:39:26 asciilifeform: waitasec why do we even care

19:39:28 vorandrew: !facts

19:39:30 asciilifeform: what apple does

19:39:40 nubbins`: we don't, i've got a passing interest

19:40:20 nubbins`: at least they point you in the direction of what to do should you choose to ignore dad advice

19:40:27 asciilifeform: i used to have a passing interest, long ago. but for all i know you have to sacrifice a son to the crocodile god to get blessing from cupertino to distribute 'app' now.

19:40:40 *: nubbins` idly wonders what sort of install base Darwin has

19:41:02 asciilifeform: nubbins`: probably somewhere below that of 'plan 9'

19:41:07 nubbins`: heh

19:41:08 asciilifeform: if you're thinking of raw 'darwin'

19:41:26 asciilifeform: at one point i had a machine going with each.

19:41:29 nubbins`: i know there is/was an "opendarwin" project

19:41:57 nubbins`: anyway, homebrew lets me install sane gcc, but apparently sane ld is off-limits?

19:42:15 asciilifeform: conflicts with the idiot ld on the box, or what

19:42:33 nubbins`: in theory there'd be conflicts with the idiot gcc

19:42:40 nubbins`: so brew installs things in a specific location

19:42:48 nubbins`: then i go rename the originals and ln -s

19:42:55 nubbins`: but check this out:

19:42:58 nubbins`: $ brew install ld64

19:42:58 nubbins`: ld64: OS X Snow Leopard or older is required.

19:43:00 nubbins`: OR OLDER

19:43:08 asciilifeform: nubbins`: you might actually have more luck cross-compiling on that box

19:43:25 nubbins`: hmm

19:44:53 nubbins`: in what fashion

19:44:59 asciilifeform: say, for armv5

19:45:20 asciilifeform: (crosstoolchain has prefixes in names)

19:45:31 asciilifeform: but i dare say this is a waste of time

19:45:41 asciilifeform: find a real computer

19:47:11 nubbins`: no kidding hey

19:49:17 nubbins`: brew install ld64 pulls down the following file:

19:49:18 nubbins`: https://opensource.apple.com/tarballs/ld64/ld64-97.17.tar.gz

19:49:21 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1xoqGyB )

19:49:21 nubbins`: o.O

19:49:29 nubbins`: how is this useful

19:50:10 danielpbarron: ftr I do not intend to acutally use apple software; i've been putting OpenBSD on old iMacs

19:50:36 asciilifeform: then no need for the weird apple minutiae, no ?

19:50:50 asciilifeform: is anyone actually trying to build on apple's os ?

19:50:51 danielpbarron: i think nubbins` has other plans

19:50:58 *: danielpbarron shrugs

19:51:11 asciilifeform: i meant was, is anyone planning to -run- on apple's os

19:51:17 asciilifeform: because now that's just bizarre

19:51:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20591 @ 0.0002754 = 5.6708 BTC [-] {2}

19:51:30 nubbins`: that's what i'm trying to do, yes

19:51:38 nubbins`: not that i'm going to be running a node on this machine

19:51:40 danielpbarron: i plan on using nothing but OpenBSD whereever possible :p

19:51:49 nubbins`: just killing a saturday seeing how much work is involved

19:51:58 asciilifeform: i'll build for apple shortly after i build for 'super nintendo'

19:52:02 danielpbarron: although still using gentoo on this laptop and debian on my irc server and ArchLinux on the pogo node

19:52:20 nubbins`: 2 more pogos on the way here

19:52:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40761 @ 0.00027223 = 11.0964 BTC [-] {2}

19:52:46 asciilifeform: nubbins`: get a mega-crate while they're still around

19:53:07 asciilifeform: i have reasons to suspect that the pogo-4 is not long for this world

19:53:25 danielpbarron: they are selling the things at like 80% off because they think people will pay them 5 USD a month for cloud services

19:53:34 nubbins`: reasons that include dumping the hardware below cost? ;p

19:53:36 asciilifeform: and the cheapest entirely equivalent machine i was able to find on the market, anywhere on planet, is roughly 4x the cost

19:54:03 nubbins`: danielpbarron i'm still not sure how much is mfg subsidy and how much is dumping eol product

19:54:27 nubbins`: the msrp on the things is like $99.

19:55:09 asciilifeform: there are inexhaustible many similar machines -without sata- for around 2-3x the cost of 'pogo4'

19:55:22 asciilifeform: but it is precisely the sata - and the Gb ethernet - which make the pogo what it is

20:11:01 mircea_popescu: felipelalli it actually already works like that.

20:11:37 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [19:50] is anyone actually trying to build on apple's os ? << no

20:11:44 ben_vulpes: mod6 will be too polite about this

20:11:48 mircea_popescu: the reason you're not seeing "anything very objective" is because you don't know all sorts of things you don't know, and so they don't trigger for you. for instance : in a village where there's no bank, someone offering loans is one thing. in a town where banks exists and works, someone offering "loans" is called a loanshark.

20:12:08 ben_vulpes: but macos is marginal, and not at all a thing that i'm interested in hosting bitcoind on.

20:13:07 mircea_popescu: for fundamental or practical reasons ?

20:13:20 mircea_popescu: ie, macos too stupid to run software ? or, not enough people actually running it to bother with ? or what ?

20:16:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it has weird and very annoying quirks. just like actual unixen but not exactly, is the best description

20:16:09 asciilifeform: i think the japanese call this situation 'uncanny valley'

20:16:26 mircea_popescu: aha

20:16:28 trinque: situation will likely involve installing some mess like brew

20:16:29 ben_vulpes: where's that bash

20:17:20 *: nubbins` did install some mess like brew

20:17:29 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-10-2014#896379

20:17:29 assbot: Logged on 26-10-2014 03:33:41; decimation: osx looks good from the outside, but when you walk into the engine room you find chairs glued to the ceiling and rotating clown cars

20:17:29 nubbins`: fwiw brew is *just* a package manager ;p

20:18:14 trinque: nubbins`: I recall several instances of having done *dunno what* to fuck up my brew/macports/fink install

20:18:15 ben_vulpes: well a) marginal in that if you can hack an os x box, you are able to hack a linux or bsd box, and why prefer the consumer os to something designed for use by professionals

20:18:37 nubbins`: trinque my understanding is that installing brew and macports is a recipe for disaster

20:18:43 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: betcha 9 out of 10 times it is used because laptop.

20:18:45 ben_vulpes: b) it is the product of the devil, with all sorts of odd shit going on under the hood

20:18:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30800 @ 0.00028006 = 8.6258 BTC [+] {3}

20:19:03 nubbins`: asciilifeform +1

20:19:12 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: invariably

20:19:43 ben_vulpes: 'tis why i use it.

20:19:54 ben_vulpes: i'd like to build out a workstation this year.

20:20:01 ben_vulpes: doubt that i'll have time, though.

20:20:02 thestringpuller: workstation isn't portable

20:20:03 ben_vulpes: anyways.

20:20:12 jurov: 36 quotes waiting for bash... looks like rs work, guess i'll start asking for donations :D

20:20:13 ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: you don't say!

20:20:14 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the parts aren't getting any more findable.

20:20:39 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i've been wanting to build a successor to my '07 machine for a few yrs now, and at this point not sure that it will happen at all

20:21:02 asciilifeform: there are how many manufacturers of amd boards with support for ecc ram? 2? 1?

20:21:26 *: asciilifeform goes through this ritual every year or so

20:21:36 ben_vulpes: i honestly don't even know how to build a workstation.

20:21:36 *: asciilifeform with same result

20:21:54 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you buy a number of things and bolt them together...

20:21:55 ben_vulpes: for example: why ecc ram?

20:22:07 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: this was actually discussed in #b-a on several occasions

20:22:11 asciilifeform: !s ecc

20:22:12 assbot: 63 results for 'ecc' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ecc

20:22:32 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: cannot tolerate errors in memory for any reason, whatsoever.

20:22:37 jurov: can't one just use some server mobo?

20:22:45 asciilifeform: jurov: -must-

20:22:51 asciilifeform: jurov: but not so many for amd.

20:23:12 asciilifeform: esp. if you want expansion slots

20:23:22 asciilifeform: (for human use, typically want video boards, for instance.)

20:23:50 *: jurov is uninformed grunt with athlonII 630 fourcore with no upgrade plans and sadly no ecc

20:24:08 trinque: asciilifeform: do you find AMD more trustworthy or is it a technical preference?

20:24:18 asciilifeform: last i checked, i actually found an appropriate board. about 1k usd for mobo alone.

20:25:09 asciilifeform: trinque: amd is, recall, also american. but it does not have the history of outright warfare against its customers, or the surreptitious collaboration with microshit, that intel does.

20:25:28 trinque: yep knew they're american, hence curiosity

20:26:06 asciilifeform: there is no 'clean' cpu vendor on the planet today.

20:26:19 asciilifeform: even chinese 'loongson' is built with american w4r4z fab tools.

20:26:30 trinque: heh sorry to constantly remind you of this fact with my questions.

20:27:25 trinque: I am still curious why davout uses win 3.1 to do his encryption

20:27:28 asciilifeform: trinque: there are other useful facts to know about intel

20:27:44 asciilifeform: trinque: for instance, that recent intel server boards all include -prominently advertised- hardware rootkits

20:27:48 asciilifeform: 'remote management'

20:27:57 asciilifeform: supposedly user-controllable, but srsly l0l

20:27:58 trinque: yeah, saw that feature on this lenovo

20:28:01 trinque: "feature"

20:28:33 asciilifeform: as for 'consumer' junk, recent intel boards have nintendo-style signed boot preventing use of linuxbios

20:28:48 asciilifeform: this should tell you everything you need to know.

20:28:49 cazalla: danielpbarron: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2zrdxz/withdrawals_halted_as_stolen_evolution_coins_make/ << is this a qntra article? <<< as far as i could tell, it's just a screenshot from btc-e chat, nothing came from btc-e themselves on the website, twitter etc etc, btc-e's email server was down too so people couldn't confirm withdrawal, so nfi if that link is even factual

20:28:53 assbot: Withdrawals halted as stolen evolution coins make their way to BTC-e : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1DISeAt )

20:29:04 trinque: asciilifeform: indeed

20:29:15 asciilifeform: trinque: amd is not 'angelic', it is simply behind the usg schedule because, elementary, smaller market share

20:29:20 asciilifeform: and is the 'younger son'

20:29:23 asciilifeform: so not favoured by microshit

20:29:39 asciilifeform: but we all know where the train is going

20:29:53 asciilifeform: so if you want to buy hardware, do it while you can.

20:29:55 nubbins`: ;;google hear my train a-comin'

20:29:56 gribble: Hear My Train A Comin' - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear_My_Train_A_Comin'; Jimi Hendrix - Hear My Train A Comin' (Lyric Video) - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EX5phFmbrU8; Jimi Hendrix: Hear My Train A Comin' | Director's Cut Video ... - PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/episodes/jimi-hendrix/film-jimi-hendrix-hear-my- (1 more message)

20:31:33 jurov: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/M5A97_R20/ i dug out this

20:31:35 assbot: Motherboards - M5A97 R2.0 - ASUS ... ( http://bit.ly/1DIStvn )

20:31:49 asciilifeform: jurov: own this one ^ ?

20:31:50 cazalla: plus the mods for btc-e chat are well known for trolling so who really knows

20:32:18 jurov: no, just could not believe there is nothing avail

20:32:56 asciilifeform: jurov: be careful with the ecc thing. many boards will take the dimms, but won't actually -use- ecc

20:33:22 asciilifeform: generally only 'server market' boards that -require- ecc, actually work with it.

20:33:42 jurov: wow, such scam

20:34:00 asciilifeform: other than that, i cannot comment on the linked item

20:34:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44350 @ 0.00027708 = 12.2885 BTC [-]

20:34:08 mircea_popescu: felipelalli http://fraudsters.com/2015/autotranslated-spam-for-the-lulz/ << here, for you.

20:34:08 assbot: Autotranslated Spam For The Lulz pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DISIqh )

20:38:03 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1062597 << that's just the tenth of it, but yes, a major reason this doesn't work.

20:38:03 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 19:21:00; vorandrew: and boom! - just default on 660K BTC :)

20:40:24 asciilifeform: jurov: i generally buy boards that require 'buffered ecc'

20:40:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: i'll build for apple shortly after i build for 'super nintendo' << ahahaha. nintendo!

20:40:34 asciilifeform: the solidest gold toilet available

20:41:28 asciilifeform: trinque, jurov: see also recently publicized 'rowhammer' effect.

20:41:49 jurov: it hits unbuffered harder?

20:41:58 asciilifeform: not that i know of. unrelated

20:41:59 mircea_popescu: http://log1.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2015#1062676 << ayup.

20:41:59 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2015 19:54:27; nubbins`: the msrp on the things is like $99.

20:42:17 asciilifeform: though i'm uncertain re: whether ddr3 even exists in buffered-ecc variant

20:42:37 asciilifeform: (ddr3 is the type of dram affected by 'rowhammer')

20:42:37 mircea_popescu: and since i'm off, i leave you with http://41.media.tumblr.com/8a8fca439ee8052b65b75202e77950b0/tumblr_mw45rs1ptf1t16d43o1_1280.jpg

20:42:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1DITzHB )

20:44:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21600 @ 0.00028206 = 6.0925 BTC [+] {2}

20:45:35 asciilifeform: http://www.servethehome.com/unbuffered-registered-ecc-memory-difference-ecc-udimms-rdimms << likbez re: ecc & buffering

20:45:38 assbot: Unbuffered versus Registered ECC Memory - Difference between ECC UDIMMs and RDIMMsServeTheHome – Server and Workstation Reviews ... ( http://bit.ly/1DITN1u )

20:50:22 ben_vulpes: neat likbez, asciilifeform, thank you

20:50:52 scoopbot: New post on fraudsters by Mircea Popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/autotranslated-spam-for-the-lulz/

20:51:53 jurov: good. so we now know alf needs 100+G of RAM

20:55:01 asciilifeform: jurov: even something very modest like 16 begins to suffer from buffering problems if actually used in anger

20:55:22 *: trinque wonders what relevance running from ramdisks might have to the situation involving hd firmware

20:56:49 asciilifeform: trinque: hd firmware diddling is usually interesting at boot

20:57:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26718 @ 0.00028261 = 7.5508 BTC [+]

20:58:00 trinque: asciilifeform: boot from cd, decompress an image into ram?

20:58:09 trinque: not that it avoids any other diddled components

20:58:24 trinque: also where do you make your "clean" CD

20:58:36 asciilifeform: trinque: most cdrom drives have reflashable fw, incidentally.

20:58:50 asciilifeform: (why? don't ask me)

20:59:52 nubbins`: my first cdrw drive required a firmware update

21:00:01 nubbins`: well, "required". too long ago to remember what it did

21:00:30 nubbins`: ostensibly it's there for later when they discover bugs in their code

21:00:49 asciilifeform: the option of not having the bugs is presented as not even thinkable.

21:01:05 nubbins`: those drives, you prolly can't reflash the fw 8)

21:01:27 trinque: asciilifeform: "ship it!" (tm)

21:01:55 asciilifeform: incidentally, buggy+nonflashable is common as dirt. my car, for instance, has a buggy cabin thermostat controller.

21:02:16 nubbins`: they shoulda made it reflashable!

21:02:28 nubbins`: http://imgur.com/GY0nn5n

21:02:29 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1DIVufs )

21:02:33 nubbins`: ^ homemade kimchi on the menu tonite

21:02:42 trinque: yum!

21:02:47 asciilifeform: actually i have no idea if flashable. could very well be. but no vendor upgrade has ever been released, nor is there any obvious means of applying one

21:02:53 nubbins`: nod

21:02:59 nubbins`: been fermenting on the counter for 6 days

21:03:11 asciilifeform: (some newer cars can actually be reflashed through the music player, famously.)

21:03:11 nubbins`: just fried up a test piece; wept

21:03:31 nubbins`: asciilifeform some synths i have can be reflashed modem-style via audio jack

21:04:40 nubbins`: update is released as wav file

21:16:18 nubbins`: http://pastebin.com/uP8n9kkD

21:16:19 assbot: g++ -pthread -Wno-invalid-offsetof -Wformat -g -DNOPCH -I/Users/jonkeefe/Downloa - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1DIWY9x )

21:16:40 nubbins`: anyone have a suggestion as to where i start figuring out *which* file/directory it can't find?

21:16:50 nubbins`: everything in prior stmt appears to be present

21:20:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12200 @ 0.00028483 = 3.4749 BTC [+]

21:31:26 jurov: i'd strace it

21:34:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45530 @ 0.00028152 = 12.8176 BTC [-] {2}

21:36:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25800 @ 0.00027616 = 7.1249 BTC [-] {2}

21:37:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18600 @ 0.00027211 = 5.0612 BTC [-] {2}

21:40:42 nubbins`: jurov good idea, nothing useful tho

21:46:24 decimation: asciilifeform: I tried to compile an 'open source' app using the osx devel tool once

21:47:01 decimation: the developer in question had already made a deal with apple to publish the app apparently. I couldn't even compile my own version unsigned for my own personal use

21:48:43 decimation: Xcode insisted that I required a paid apple developer account before I could consider such a thing, it appears

21:50:42 nubbins`: o.O

21:51:19 decimation: now, perhaps I was just unaware of the proper method of 'unsigning' someone else's code, but it wasn't an obvious feature if it existed

21:51:24 trinque: yeah, it can be done

21:51:26 nubbins`: is this a mac app or an ios app?

21:51:29 trinque: or at least years ago when I did this

21:51:30 decimation: mac app

21:51:41 nubbins`: ah, haven't ever used xcode for this

21:51:43 trinque: you have to set your ios device up as one of your dev devices

21:51:50 decimation: no, it was a mac app

21:51:54 nubbins`: as you can imagine, ios apps are under almost total lockdown

21:52:13 trinque: whether this much fuckery should be involved aside, it can be done

21:52:13 nubbins`: seems kinda weird that some random code won't compile tho.

21:52:29 trinque: you make your own self-signed cert then flip a setting that allows you to run such things

21:52:45 decimation: trinque: I did attempt that

21:53:04 nubbins`: best batch of kimchi yet, btw

21:53:08 nubbins`: so goddamn sour

21:54:26 decimation: at any rate, it does appear that with each release of osx/xcode, apple subtlety changes what is 'allowed', without much explicit explanation

21:54:36 trinque: decimation: a friend of mine always says it's a matter of time before they remove the terminal entirely

21:54:43 nubbins`: http://pastebin.com/kdybufC5

21:54:44 assbot: 87105/0x2a6df: stat64("/Users/jonkeefe/Downloads/bitcoin-v0_5_3_1/ourlibs/inclu - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/18Po7Kg )

21:54:44 nubbins`: ^ fwiw

21:54:45 decimation: yes, the path is obvious

21:54:55 nubbins`: ran via "dtruss"

21:55:02 nubbins`: nothing useful afaict

21:55:16 decimation: apple could quite easily lock down osx just as hard as it locks down ios

21:55:40 trinque: decimation: pretty far from their roots these days

21:55:46 nubbins`: decimation a couple releases ago (maybe 1-2), the default behaviour for applications downloaded by "unknown developers" requires you to right-click,open

21:55:50 nubbins`: for first run

21:55:55 nubbins`: double-click turns you down

21:55:55 decimation: nubbins`: that's still the case

21:56:13 nubbins`: fwiw it's fairly non-intrusive and can be disabled

21:56:36 decimation: right, but apple just wants you to know that it sees what you are doing there...

21:56:40 nubbins`: :D

21:56:58 decimation: on the other hand, perhaps apple is just trying to 'enumerate goodness' in its 'forced wot'

21:57:07 nubbins`: <+trinque> decimation: a friend of mine always says it's a matter of time before they remove the terminal entirely <<< a friend of mine says obummer is a reptilian

21:57:18 decimation: except apple doesn't really have a wot so much as it has a slave harem

21:57:20 trinque: nubbins`: heh, I tend to argue the contrary

21:57:23 trinque: but he has a point

21:57:50 nubbins`: like, remove Terminal.app from the default install, or remove the ability to run bash?

21:58:05 nubbins`: or something more nebulous

21:58:14 nubbins`: like "just remove"

21:58:23 pete_dushenski: if apple has a slave harem, they win the award for 'dumbest slave harem'

21:58:48 decimation: pete_dushenski: well, they apparently can charge people for the privilege of signing up

21:58:50 trinque: nubbins`: remove the ability to interact with anything other than signed cocoa apps

21:59:01 pete_dushenski: or maybe windowz wins. but w/e

21:59:06 nubbins`: well, y'know.

21:59:08 nubbins`: let em.

21:59:18 nubbins`: it's their hw/sw

21:59:26 pete_dushenski: decimation: they charge ppl for all the privileges!

21:59:32 trinque: sure, that was my reaction to the latest win10 signed boot bullshit

21:59:40 nubbins`: *i* won't buy it, but since when does the market cater to rational actors?

21:59:42 pete_dushenski: that's how you know it's lvmh territory

22:00:12 pete_dushenski: nubbins`: not since the state stuck its fingers in

22:00:14 decimation: as in maker of fancy trinkets for rich folk?

22:00:25 pete_dushenski: right

22:00:48 decimation: I recently heard an argument that apple's only recourse to 'grow' its revenue stream is to sell super-luxury goods

22:00:49 pete_dushenski: nubbins`: which would've been what, 1915 ?

22:01:05 trinque: decimation: the apple watch gadget etc

22:01:08 trinque: tv... so on

22:01:26 pete_dushenski: decimation: new product offerings grow their pie just as well

22:01:33 decimation: the argument being that even if every 'middle class' person in the world purchased a new apple device they would still only be 'holding steady'

22:01:33 trinque: I admire the way the company got started; someone needs to do *that* again

22:01:36 trinque: because now they're the IBM

22:01:39 pete_dushenski: not necessarily more premium, just... branded

22:01:50 nubbins`: mildly surprised there's no market for os-free laptops of somewhat rugged construction

22:01:54 nubbins`: but only ever so mildly

22:02:08 decimation: which explains the need to sell 10k watches, and cars, bespoke helicopters, etc

22:02:12 trinque: asciilifeform tells me there are no trustworthy components with which to re-do the garage build, and I don't doubt him

22:02:19 pete_dushenski: nubbins`: like engineless car market

22:02:30 pete_dushenski: buy a honda, insert own custom ferrari engine

22:02:34 pete_dushenski: uh, sure

22:02:38 decimation: nubbins`: there's the 'toughbook'

22:02:38 nubbins`: my next laptop will probably be a cheap desktop + chromebook

22:02:46 decimation: but I think it comes with winblows

22:02:48 nubbins`: decimation what am i, a cop?!

22:02:51 decimation: hehe

22:03:03 nubbins`: dell usually offers one or two linux laptops

22:03:08 nubbins`: hopelessly outdated and overpriced

22:03:25 nubbins`: otherwise, your choices are (a) give MS $25 or (b) fuck off

22:03:33 decimation: my recommendation is you purchase a laptop on the 'coreboot' list & flash your own bios

22:03:35 trinque: I've seen a system76 in person, seemed like a piece of shit

22:03:36 pete_dushenski: or buy old thinkpad

22:03:54 pete_dushenski: which i'll get around to myself at some point

22:03:54 nubbins`: trinque i researched those

22:03:56 decimation: be prepared for shitty device support

22:04:01 nubbins`: i honestly abhor the idea of a plastic laptop

22:04:07 trinque: pete_dushenski: I'm on a lenovo turd currently, do not recommend

22:04:21 trinque: thinkpad in name only

22:04:26 pete_dushenski: mm, ok so pre-2011 or w/e

22:04:32 trinque: yeah

22:04:38 pete_dushenski: update ram, new os, go

22:04:45 nubbins`: haha, i actually have a laptop w/ coreboot: OLPC XO-1.

22:04:52 trinque: my cellphone gets too close to this machine and the display starts flickering, disk remounts read-only

22:04:59 decimation: if you want 'cheap, don't care', you could buy a chromebook and reflash

22:05:48 nubbins`: my criteria are (a) not plastic body (b) no money given to MS

22:06:16 pete_dushenski: several ways to skin cat, hard to argue that any involve apple

22:06:27 decimation: well, the 'plastic body' fails almost everything

22:06:30 nubbins`: ^

22:06:41 decimation: macbookpro or toughbook

22:06:50 nubbins`: mbp = soldered ram, glued battery

22:07:01 pete_dushenski: only newest ones

22:07:08 nubbins`: too troo

22:07:14 nubbins`: used laptops = ehhhh

22:07:16 pete_dushenski: glued battery wasn't there 3 years ago

22:07:19 nubbins`: who knows how they were treated

22:07:22 pete_dushenski: not sure about ram

22:07:34 decimation: yeah, you could buy an old g4 macbook pro

22:07:44 pete_dushenski: 17" screen!

22:07:58 nubbins`: maybe i'll just try stocking up on a full set of spare parts for this late-2008 macbook

22:08:10 nubbins`: prolly no easier

22:08:10 decimation: replace battery, replace hdd

22:08:35 pete_dushenski: maybe no easier, but that's not the point, the point is what's saner

22:08:47 nubbins`: this is actually the longest i've ever used the same laptop

22:09:03 pete_dushenski: well then why stop

22:09:12 nubbins`: planning for the future, yo

22:09:15 pete_dushenski: dollars to donuts a newer one won't last 7 years

22:09:15 nubbins`: one day this will die

22:10:08 pete_dushenski: but unless it's too slow for your needs, like decimation said, a new hdd or battery is all you'll likely need

22:10:13 pete_dushenski: what, maybe fan

22:10:24 nubbins`: got a new battery and upgraded to 8gb ram a couple months ago

22:10:30 nubbins`: breathed some new life into it

22:10:56 pete_dushenski: next: ssd

22:11:30 decimation: they might not have sata drives, you might need an ata ssd

22:12:35 nubbins`: ssd i can do w/o

22:12:44 *: nubbins` doesn't do much disk thrashing

22:12:57 decimation: the issue is that it might suck if you don't run osx

22:14:11 nubbins`: that's what my iphone said when i walked into best buy

22:14:13 nubbins`: 8)

22:17:32 PeterL: so I applied for grad school today

22:17:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24600 @ 0.00027425 = 6.7466 BTC [+]

22:19:08 pete_dushenski: PeterL: what program ?

22:19:33 PeterL: Central Mich chemistry

22:20:08 pete_dushenski: nice. gl!

22:20:11 PeterL: thanks

22:20:40 PeterL: it's the only place close enough to be commutable

22:21:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42600 @ 0.0002721 = 11.5915 BTC [-] {2}

22:24:32 nubbins`: PeterL congrats/condolences

22:24:39 PeterL: lol

22:28:03 PeterL: asciilifeform:the same folks who were paying the parasites (i will not call them publishers, they withhold only - performing not a single one of the traditional functions of a publishing house save the physical printing) - will continue to pay. << what is this "physical printing"? everything is online now

22:28:22 PeterL: btw, I'm a couple days behind in the logs

22:28:45 decimation: PeterL: it doesn't matter that it's all online

22:28:49 nubbins`: facepalm

22:29:17 decimation: in fact, it makes things worse, because they can positively identify to whom 'reading privileges' belong

22:29:31 nubbins`: http://imgur.com/oa5lj23

22:29:32 assbot: Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1HgBDli )

22:30:22 PeterL: decimation: in fact, it makes things worse, because they can positively identify to whom 'reading privileges' belong << people share files, right?

22:31:05 decimation: sure, let me know if you find an open repo with all academic pubs present, updated regularly

22:31:23 PeterL: asciilifeform:and to the extent it isn't a problem, it is solely because academia is mostly dead as a going concern << and here I go trying to get back into it :(

22:31:51 decimation: PeterL: it's not a bad idea if you can scam someone into paying for it

22:33:07 nubbins`: fwiw "everything is online now" people generally miss out on a broad spectrum of opportunity

22:35:50 asciilifeform: fact is, i can go and read print materials at uni library

22:35:55 asciilifeform: online ones - no.

22:36:10 PeterL: no university password?

22:36:14 asciilifeform: nope

22:36:22 asciilifeform: and i pay actual money just to be permitted in the library

22:36:23 nubbins`: even if you could read 'em online, look what happens if you read them too fast

22:37:06 asciilifeform: there has been a very sharp decline in the past few yrs in what i am able to access at the library

22:37:35 asciilifeform: because even the things still issued in print - many of the print subscriptions at this place were allowed to lapse

22:37:42 nubbins`: ^

22:37:50 asciilifeform: because 'anyone who's anyone can read on www' or the like.

22:37:59 asciilifeform: and no, none of it is on warez of any kind

22:38:08 asciilifeform: (who would put it there, and why?)

22:38:16 nubbins`: ^

22:38:24 PeterL: get an undergrad girlfriend who can print it for you?

22:38:26 nubbins`: "everything is online" is a fine premise for commodity data

22:38:34 nubbins`: rare data, not so much

22:39:00 asciilifeform: PeterL: someone suggested bribery & shills before. it doesn't work, because my use pattern is 'grep at 3am when moon is full'

22:39:09 asciilifeform: rather than 'fetch me XXXXX'

22:39:18 nubbins`: i've downloaded bootlegged concerts, since lost, that i will never, ever, ever find again

22:39:21 PeterL: you grep the dead trees?

22:39:31 asciilifeform: PeterL: approximately.

22:39:51 asciilifeform: speaking of the online stuff, really

22:39:54 asciilifeform: i browse.

22:40:21 asciilifeform: most of the time when i go to that library it isn't even for a specific rational purpose

22:40:24 asciilifeform: but just to massage brain

22:40:50 asciilifeform: this is easy with print, difficult with www, but absolutely impossible with www that someone else is cranking for you

22:41:37 PeterL: browse through google scholar?

22:41:49 asciilifeform: PeterL: browsing for me implies instant access to full text

22:41:56 PeterL: good point

22:41:57 asciilifeform: not idiot 'winamp playlists' of titles

22:47:13 asciilifeform: nubbins`: mildly surprised there's no market for os-free laptops of somewhat rugged construction << iirc the term of art is 'lemon market'

22:47:50 decimation: it's not like several day delay involved in informing whatever patsy to do what is needed is great for your train of thought

22:48:04 asciilifeform: !s ooda loop

22:48:04 assbot: 2 results for 'ooda loop' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ooda+loop

22:48:28 decimation: and then if patsy discovers the volume/paper/whatever wasn't useful, how do you think they will react?

22:48:54 asciilifeform: the whole point of a library, originally (ancient and medieval worlds) was so you don't have to write to phriend across the sea 'please send me work xxxxx' and get it two years later when you forget what it was even for

22:49:07 decimation: ie a cache

22:49:08 asciilifeform: to 'shorten the ooda loop'

22:49:29 decimation: but that was when only people who knew wtf they were doing could even read

22:50:17 asciilifeform: today 'library' could be anywhere with a net connection - but isn't

22:50:38 asciilifeform: and if it takes ww3 to eliminate the reasons for this - then i am enthusiastically in favour of ww3.

22:50:45 decimation: asciilifeform: publishers/authors have 'come to expect' royalties

22:51:01 PeterL: new #B-A need: print off all the articles and store in a library

22:51:13 trinque: ahem... deedbot-

22:51:33 decimation: online repo is fine, as long as it is properly organized and indexed

22:51:51 asciilifeform: decimation: the authors virtually never see any positive cashflow

22:51:56 nubbins`: PeterL dat cutoff of comments

22:51:59 decimation: note that attempting to accomplish this task was why whats his face hung himself

22:52:13 asciilifeform: i'm not even satisfied that he did it himself

22:52:14 asciilifeform: but yes

22:52:19 decimation: heh

22:52:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9035 @ 0.00027384 = 2.4741 BTC [+]

22:52:34 PeterL: nubbins`: what cutoff?

22:52:43 nubbins`: waitnow. what articles?

22:53:58 PeterL: all the articles asciilifeform wants to read later

22:54:46 asciilifeform: most of what i read is '70s-'90s and a good chunk of it is book

22:55:01 PeterL: would deedbot be a suitable place to publish scientific research?

22:55:14 decimation: sure, or at least a hash/pointer to the same

22:55:26 asciilifeform: PeterL: so it isn't merely or even primarily about recent publications

22:55:32 nubbins`: o

22:55:33 asciilifeform: but this is a case of 'the spittoon'

22:55:36 asciilifeform: !s spittoon

22:55:37 assbot: 21 results for 'spittoon' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=spittoon

22:55:58 trinque: PeterL: depends on licensing I guess; I don't have the bankroll to get into any copyright battles for anyone

22:56:03 trinque: nor the interest

22:56:17 asciilifeform: the frustration of the activity is directly proportional to how often i end up 'following a dead link' - that is, trying to access something - anything - referred to in any work, and finding out that it isn't in the collection or i'm not cleared for it

22:56:33 asciilifeform: and generally the answer is 'constantly'

22:58:40 decimation: ^ me too

22:58:53 asciilifeform: since mircea_popescu is out, i will have to fill in for him and point out that yes, 99.9999% percent of the material is crud

22:58:59 asciilifeform: but this changes nothing

22:59:01 decimation: and I even pay for an IEEE membership w/societies (mostly IEEE papers)

22:59:27 asciilifeform: we don't have a mechanism for producing the good stuff separately, yet.

23:01:13 asciilifeform: to anyone who ever wondered about what the net would look like if it were controlled by publishers, rather than telecoms: it would look like the academia web.

23:01:15 trinque: part of the interest for me working on deedbot- was to see how hard the next thing would be, publishing magnet link hashes, dht keys, something like that

23:01:30 trinque: that idea is better off being a tool you run against your own bitcoind

23:01:45 asciilifeform: trinque: warez only really works for popular things

23:01:53 trinque: asciilifeform: yeh, people here would have to run it

23:02:21 trinque: *seed

23:03:11 asciilifeform: for instance, go find peter kogge's 'symbolic computers' on warez.

23:03:28 asciilifeform: it isn't there

23:03:44 asciilifeform: and if it is ever there, it will almost certainly be because i will have found the time to scan it & post it.

23:04:58 trinque: asciilifeform: I have long wanted a system where member nodes can all publish wads 'o gpg stuff, peers don't know the contents of the wad, give each-other redundancy

23:05:06 decimation: asciilifeform: https://books.google.com/books?id=ruhQAAAAMAAJ < this?

23:05:08 assbot: The Architecture of Symbolic Computers - Peter M. Kogge - Google Boeken ... ( http://bit.ly/1HiVST5 )

23:05:14 trinque: there are a few attempts at doing it with a shitty alt-coin

23:05:51 PeterL: trinque: isn't that what bitmessage is supposed to do?

23:06:43 trinque: PeterL: in the ballpark; there's storj, also ballpark

23:06:46 asciilifeform: decimation: yes, it

23:07:02 trinque: needs to be built on bitcoin

23:07:09 decimation: the g00g has it in their repo...

23:07:16 PeterL: why need to build on bitcoin?

23:07:16 asciilifeform: decimation: they have almost everything

23:07:21 decimation: aye

23:07:23 asciilifeform: decimation: but fat lot of good it does anyone else

23:07:44 asciilifeform: it's as uninteresting as the fact that the author might still have it on some ancient 8mm tape

23:07:49 trinque: google, one of the things which will survive the fall...

23:08:22 asciilifeform: trinque: see their usenet archive to learn what happens to material that the 1990s-birthdayed morons don't give a damn about

23:08:59 decimation: perhaps one day google will be 'snowdened'

23:09:27 asciilifeform: go steal 10000tB.

23:09:33 decimation: heh yeah

23:09:46 decimation: something tells me google security would notice the racks going out the door

23:10:04 asciilifeform: the only way it could really change hands is physical conquest of entire continent

23:10:12 asciilifeform: in the course of which most of it would be destroyed

23:10:54 asciilifeform: since mircea_popescu is out, i will fill in for him and observe that library of alexandria burning is no loss, when cockroaches evolve and replace man they will rediscover everything.

23:11:37 asciilifeform: i kinda wish i could think myself into the mindset of 'immortal olympian' that way

23:11:59 asciilifeform: but i happen to live here. and to me the availability of this or that piece of dead tree - matters.

23:12:35 decimation: agreed, me too

23:13:00 decimation: asciilifeform: how do you 'scan and post' a book? I just fujitsu scansnap

23:13:10 decimation: s/just/use

23:13:27 asciilifeform: decimation: tripod

23:13:41 asciilifeform: like the old spies with their 'minox' cams.

23:14:27 decimation: do you have a collection of custom scripts to turn a pile of images into a pdf/djvu

23:15:06 trinque: asciilifeform: is the situation that google bought deja news then didn't put up the whole archive?

23:15:23 trinque: I'm not old enough to have experienced a usenet golden age

23:17:10 PeterL: I used a couple "google groups" for a while, before I moved up to the bitcoinTalk forum

23:17:11 decimation: trinque: in the olden days it was expected your local isp would provide a usenet server and collect archives

23:17:18 asciilifeform: trinque: nope

23:17:35 asciilifeform: trinque: it's in there, as far as i can tell, but quietly stopped being searchable a year or so ago

23:17:49 trinque: ah

23:17:58 asciilifeform: and before that, they glommed it into their idiot 'google groups' thing

23:18:04 decimation: 'deja news' was kinda like the original 'stack overflow' in terms of its usefulness to troubleshooting common computer issues

23:18:06 asciilifeform: then they stopped making them searchable separately

23:18:07 asciilifeform: then - at all

23:18:45 asciilifeform: i still can't tell if it was mere neglect, or shitgnomery, or specifically the folks who posted silly things on usenet in the '80-'90s are trying to run for political office, or what.

23:18:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45800 @ 0.00027377 = 12.5387 BTC [-] {2}

23:19:08 trinque: quip above about the fall was that I'm sure inside google it's easy to access all this information, regardless of what levers the external surface has

23:19:31 decimation: I doubt 99% of folks inside google even know/care

23:19:34 asciilifeform: trinque: they bought up the dejanews optical disks. and i'm be rather surprised if they didn't still have them.

23:19:40 trinque: decimation: probably doesn't matter

23:20:20 decimation: the assumption of competence when it comes to a big bureaucracy is generally a poor one

23:20:42 asciilifeform: say what you like about library of alexandria, but usenet '85-'2000 was home to virtually all of the technically competent folks who exist today.

23:20:44 trinque: asciilifeform's two govts observation about the US I think applies to Googles as well

23:20:55 trinque: who gives a fuck who's working on gmail

23:21:16 trinque: the company has more information than arguably any other, and is building a robot army

23:21:19 trinque: haha

23:21:25 trinque: they'll be powerful for a long time.

23:21:26 decimation: I don't buy that there is a meta-google

23:22:01 trinque: I don't buy that such overtly, cynically powerful entities have not a single functioning brain within

23:22:31 decimation: the same could be said about the us in general

23:23:07 trinque: "don't be evil" has to be the cheesiest wink at the camera of all time

23:23:20 decimation: I like moldbug's theory: those 'with a brain' are generally engaged in spending all their time battling each other

23:23:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23544 @ 0.00027425 = 6.4569 BTC [+] {2}

23:23:54 PeterL: I wonder if google is cacheing the info on servers outside the US, so they could outlast a US collapse?

23:26:22 trinque: lockheed martins and googles are what I expect to remain in the ashes

23:26:35 trinque: which ones are actually prepared for the collapse, we'll find out then

23:26:43 trinque: but to think none of them are, that's naive

23:26:57 trinque: day two, and we're back to clubs and wearing skins

23:27:18 jurov: if the collapse will look like anything in the ostbloc

23:27:30 jurov: all gear will be gon to scrap metal or so

23:28:08 asciilifeform: the 'fine things of life' invariably are destroyed in a proper collapse.

23:28:17 asciilifeform: where is soviet physics? mathematics ?

23:28:40 pete_dushenski: like... twin studies

23:28:41 trinque: asciilifeform: silos are still there, as far as I know

23:28:44 asciilifeform: the folks not dead of drink have been driving cabs in nyc for so long as to have put their generative years firmly behind.

23:28:56 asciilifeform: trinque: not speaking of the rusty rockets at all

23:28:59 pete_dushenski: unless someone can point me to mengele's published paper

23:29:00 trinque: asciilifeform: I am

23:29:04 pete_dushenski: paper*

23:29:13 trinque: rustry drones maybe

23:29:16 trinque: *rusty

23:29:20 asciilifeform: but of the absolutely first-rate, never-equalled academic work

23:29:28 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: wrong twin studies

23:29:48 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: speaking here of the longitudinal studies of adopted children in usa

23:29:56 asciilifeform: (re: twin studies from last night's thread.)

23:30:11 pete_dushenski: aic

23:30:21 asciilifeform: l0l re: pete_dushenski immediately thinking of mengele's twins

23:30:24 pete_dushenski: also interesting, i suppose

23:30:54 pete_dushenski: haha what... i was trying to hunt down some nazi scientific papers last night

23:31:04 pete_dushenski: in english, found nothing

23:31:11 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: all the good stuff was taken to usa and is, for the most part, still secret

23:31:26 asciilifeform: (not because it included superweapons but to conceal the amount of u.s.-nazi cooperation from day one)

23:31:32 pete_dushenski: i'm generally curious about the merits of their decade and change of research

23:31:51 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: ibm, i know of

23:31:58 asciilifeform: not about ibm

23:32:00 pete_dushenski: what other cooperation do you refer to ?

23:32:21 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: chemical industry, for instance

23:32:32 pete_dushenski: sarin ?

23:32:42 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: plus the post-war rescue of virtually all of the weirdos (most famously von braun but many others)

23:33:58 pete_dushenski: my digging was more concentration camp focused, but i guess you bring up a good point that there's was a huge breadth of inquiry at the time

23:34:16 pete_dushenski: chemical weapons, v2 rockets, many things i have still to learn of

23:34:28 pete_dushenski: *there was

23:35:33 asciilifeform: unfortunately pete_dushenski is right about the unavailability in english of most of the interesting material.

23:35:48 pete_dushenski: hm well alexandria may have been replaceable/rediscoverable, but if nazi work goes down with usg, how long do we wait ?

23:36:19 pete_dushenski: if anyone can point me towards interesting work in german, i'll translate it for cripes sake

23:36:32 pete_dushenski: unrelated: http://www.contravex.com/2015/03/21/cool-hand-luke/ << asciilifeform did i get the right grigorenko ??

23:36:34 assbot: Cool Hand Luke. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bk0oZu )

23:37:02 *: asciilifeform is not convinced that there was anything interesting in 'nazi academia' that we aren't already using in consumer tech (german chemical work, mostly, manufacturing techniques)

23:37:19 decimation: pete_dushenski: sprechen Sie Deutsch?

23:37:34 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: how about medicine ?

23:37:42 pete_dushenski: decimation: nein...

23:37:45 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: him. he has a book, about his life and how he was tormented in punitive psych hospitals

23:38:02 decimation: asciilifeform: I know that the german chemical industry was also generally transported to usg

23:38:12 pete_dushenski: in german, i have hello, goodbye, sorry, counting to 10, and a few other random words

23:38:17 pete_dushenski: about on par with my hebrew

23:38:30 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: you would do just as well to learn ru

23:38:56 pete_dushenski: i can see it

23:39:43 pete_dushenski: though if i could add any 4th language, just for reading comprehension even, it'd be german

23:39:54 trinque: pete_dushenski: ich lerne deutsche mit duolingo

23:40:05 trinque: barely toddler level, but the app's fun

23:40:05 decimation: unfortunately german isn't as useful today because germany has been well-anglicized

23:40:31 pete_dushenski: trinque: haha i actually did a few lessons on there ! back when i started 'sabbatical'

23:41:33 pete_dushenski: on the spendier side, there's always rosetta stone, but having someone to speak to other than my mother would be nice

23:41:48 pete_dushenski: i really don't know any other german speakers with whom to converse

23:42:13 pete_dushenski: but as i said earlier, reading comprehension would be the most valuable for my purposes

23:42:17 pete_dushenski: i mean, causes ;)

23:42:46 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the quoted log in your post reads with great difficulty because of the choice of snips

23:43:00 pete_dushenski: hm. let me try again

23:48:09 pete_dushenski: one of the trickier conversations to break up, i admit, but it's a little better now.

23:48:51 pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2015/03/14/the-world-is-fundamentally-hostile/#comment-13298 << heh. 'what makes me superior ?'

23:48:53 assbot: The world is fundamentally hostile. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/19He3nK )

23:49:03 pete_dushenski: good question, really.

23:49:43 pete_dushenski: i guess teh jooz can always be blamed, right ?

23:52:47 pete_dushenski: so qntra business cards... i can dig it.

23:58:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54600 @ 0.000272 = 14.8512 BTC [-] {2}