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Transcript for 21-03-2016, 692 lines:

00:06:44 nubbins`: !s looky from:nubbins`

00:06:44 assbot: 6 results for 'looky from:nubbins`' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=looky+from%3Anubbins%60

00:06:56 nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-03-2016#1426141

00:06:56 assbot: Logged on 08-03-2016 00:21:18; nubbins`: if i had a satoshi for every time mp said "looky" when he'd lost an argument, i'd be able to donate a tx fee to bitbet

01:42:03 nubbins`: asciilifeform why would you assume in the first place that all these random comments on bitbet are me instead of the various angry parties to whom bitbet owes money?

01:42:26 *: nubbins` searches memory for rational reasons why alf would think this, comes up blank

01:42:40 asciilifeform: nubbins`: and 'taleb' was not you ?

01:43:23 nubbins`: ask mp, he's the one with all the insider knowledge

01:43:51 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-03-2016#1436918 << now i'll bite, ~where~ uncontroversial ? at mircea_popescu's house ?

01:43:51 assbot: Logged on 20-03-2016 23:50:19; mircea_popescu: looky, that nonsense isn't going to snivel into factuality just because butthurt. chinese miner conspiracy is a fact, undisputed and accepted as such.

01:43:58 asciilifeform: where undisputed ?

01:44:29 nubbins`: lel.

01:44:39 nubbins`: in the fifth dimension.

01:44:46 nubbins`: are we all drunk here?

01:44:49 nubbins`: or what?

01:45:53 nubbins`: maybe he means undisputed here: http://mpex.co/?mpsic=S.MPOE

01:45:55 assbot: S.MPOE last 7759@0.00041886 ... ( http://bit.ly/1USv0yT )

01:47:34 nubbins`: but in complete seriousness, yes, uncontroversial and undisputed at mp's house.

01:49:20 nubbins`: see hanbot's intensely boring, factless, hyperbole-filled rants and jabs for reference

01:50:00 asciilifeform: nubbins`: for a fella who gave his last fuck, you seem pretty excited

01:50:09 nubbins`: but what else do you expect from someone whose only skills are being a loudmouth and losing money

01:50:20 nubbins`: asciilifeform don't mistake verbosity for excitement

01:50:24 asciilifeform: l0l

01:50:53 nubbins`: 10 words a minute is excited now |0|

01:51:38 nubbins`: asciilifeform: did mpoe-pr "give a fuck" about the scammers she skewered on the forums?

01:53:42 nubbins`: or was she just reminding them that bullshit has a specific taste?

02:00:07 mats: nubbins` is rapidly approaching 1.5k lines over two weeks about the same damn topic

02:00:20 mats: pls no more

02:00:43 nubbins`: hey, i walked into a conversation already happening

02:08:13 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform everywhere. got published in teh gazette, received exactly no disputation, it's what it is.

02:08:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: everywhere?!

02:09:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when i asked 'why is miner collusion a necessary hypothesis to explain the bbet reactor melt' i got argumentum ad dirigible.

02:09:45 mats: you have been stoking the same burning pile of shit for two weeks

02:10:06 asciilifeform: mats: and chernobyl for 30 yrs. what of it.

02:10:22 mats: you didn't walk into anything, the noise in here is your doing

02:10:23 nubbins`: mats in fact i came back here after quite an absence and found the shit still on fire

02:10:29 nubbins`: lol.

02:10:40 nubbins`: the noise is my doing by calling mp a scammer? yes, fair enough.

02:11:11 nubbins`: however, there stands bitbet in the state it's in. you saying that mp threw in the towel because i bullied him into it?

02:11:25 mats: it isn't the allegation, it is the 1000x repetition that i'm looking at

02:11:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and you see a problem with that ?

02:12:09 nubbins`: mats go back and read yesterday's log

02:12:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: with argumentum ad dirigible ? yes.

02:12:22 nubbins`: only reason i bothered to chip in was to smother hanbot's hallucinations

02:12:32 nubbins`: you don't like it, put me on ignore

02:12:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is the 'secret trial with secret evidence' thing again.

02:13:14 asciilifeform: i mean, mircea_popescu can do whatever he likes with his toys, but let's not pretend that the matter was settled as some kind of actual argument in the phorum

02:13:17 mircea_popescu: understand how matters of fact work. judge sits down, lets the witness in. witness tells a story. bystanders ask whatever the fuck questions they want. witness answers if he feels like it, and remembers, and has anything to say. at the end of the day, bystanders can as pompously as they wish declare they're not coinvinced. matters not one iota. either better theory is formed, or the thing stands.

02:13:35 mircea_popescu: there isn't available this "exit by reservation". it's a personal pretense, nothing more.

02:13:40 nubbins`: mp uses the broadest analogies possible, hey?

02:13:44 asciilifeform: i have the better theory. what do i need to do, arrange the sybils personally, nuke other tx ?

02:13:56 nubbins`: asciilifeform logic has no place here

02:14:01 asciilifeform: no 'by reservation', but by specific hypothesis.

02:14:12 nubbins`: mats shouldn't you be telling alf to stfu?

02:14:13 mircea_popescu: would have helped to write it down. as the original article asked, as the rebuff to the original nubbins` said, and so on. two weeks ago, whatever.

02:14:38 nubbins`: ^ you didn't put it in a TPS report, in other words

02:14:41 nubbins`: so he missed the memo

02:16:39 mats: alf is not grandstanding.

02:17:09 mircea_popescu: is that twerp still begging for attention ?

02:17:12 mats: nor making use of the matter as an opportunity to air grievances

02:17:58 nubbins`: mm hmm

02:18:08 asciilifeform: i dun have grievances, l0l. well possibly other than the promised snow did not come, i was gonna play go under the blooming sakuras ~in motherfucking snow~ and no go. but afaik mircea_popescu is not responsible for this.

02:18:32 nubbins`: alf is in a weird spot where he obviously feels that mp is hallucinating but doesn't want to press the issue

02:18:50 mircea_popescu: that'd be global warming's fault neh ?

02:19:10 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: global worming.

02:20:06 asciilifeform: nubbins`: what i'd like is for him to share the lsd!

02:20:24 nubbins`: asciilifeform iirc i offered you some a while back but we decided you wouldn't take it

02:20:38 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i want what mircea_popescu took.

02:20:57 nubbins`: no, i don't think you do

02:21:06 nubbins`: you want what mcafee took too?!

02:21:45 nubbins`: vexual?!

02:21:52 asciilifeform: nah just mircea_popescu

02:22:16 asciilifeform: nubbins`: mcafee and vexual are drooling in a ditch, but mircea_popescu throws garbage trucks !

02:22:43 nubbins`: vexual once signed a ~1k btc address for me, hey?

02:23:35 asciilifeform: i did not say he was drooling in a ditch penniless, did i.

02:23:37 nubbins`: i kid, of course.

02:23:49 nubbins`: but i do suspect on a ~10% probability that he's satoshi

02:25:34 mircea_popescu: say wut asciilifeform ?

02:25:57 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was nubbins thread

02:26:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you have him killfiled, you will see oddities

02:27:05 mircea_popescu: so basically, you're going to dump garbage at me because you have a strange passion for nubbins` ? you imagine this is a way to behave or something ?

02:27:35 mircea_popescu: seriously now. in what conception of society do you see this to make sense ?

02:27:38 nubbins`: how dare you speak to an untouchable!

02:27:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i missed the 'don't talk to folks mircea_popescu killfiled' rule in the handbook ?

02:28:03 nubbins`: asciilifeform you missed the "do as mp says" rule?!?!

02:28:16 nubbins`: but that's the whole point of this place

02:28:24 mircea_popescu: these two things are the same thing iyo ?

02:29:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unless i missed something, fella's technically still 'lord', and belongs in the forum, neh ?

02:29:11 asciilifeform: or was he formally lowered into pederasty and i missed ?

02:29:24 mircea_popescu: i can't distinguish if you are genuinely missing something, or not. which is why i ask you.

02:29:32 asciilifeform: and yes he's annoying

02:29:33 nubbins`: asciilifeform i think he's saying that you're not allowed to talk about mp with me

02:29:51 mircea_popescu: so then why the fuck are you spamming me nonsense!

02:30:30 mircea_popescu: how exactly did you judge the cost function of not spamming mp nonsense so it came below the value of talking to nubbins` ? i wish to know, explain this to me.

02:30:50 mircea_popescu: "to my eyes, wasting mp's time is worth so much less than entertaining vexual that there's no contest".

02:30:53 mircea_popescu: you gonna sign that ?

02:31:09 asciilifeform: let's try a test: mirceŠ°_popŠµscu

02:31:14 mircea_popescu: what the fuck am i, in this incredibly infantile, and deeply ustardian conception of the world ? free for the taking or something ?

02:31:17 mircea_popescu: blergh.

02:31:19 asciilifeform: ^ did that set off the bell in mircea_popescu's irctron ?

02:31:24 mircea_popescu: of course ?

02:32:03 asciilifeform: srsly ?

02:32:03 mircea_popescu: so to sum it up : i'd like you to show me the fucking common courtesy of considering whether next time you highlight me, i could in any conceivable manner have any interest in whatever is in there.

02:32:12 nubbins`: lololol.

02:32:18 mircea_popescu: and it is deeply shameful, for you, that i have to tell you this.

02:32:20 nubbins`: the edict is issued: speak not of mircea_popescu to nubbins`

02:32:30 nubbins`: this is so cringey

02:32:44 asciilifeform: speak only of m1rc34_p0p3scu to nubbins`, possible.

02:32:48 asciilifeform: but whatevers.

02:32:53 *: asciilifeform off to eat food

02:34:24 *: nubbins` off to do things that matter

03:06:47 asciilifeform: !up zdm

03:07:04 zdm: Hello

03:07:33 asciilifeform: who might you be, zdm ?

03:07:52 zdm: Just an internet stranger

03:08:03 zdm: Been reading a lot of loper-os.org posts

03:45:40 BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/nSGUC

05:40:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8701 @ 0.00041886 = 3.6445 BTC [-]

06:49:38 BingoBoingo: http://www.plateoftheday.com/food_blog/brownie.gif

06:49:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MiTJKY )

07:04:35 punkman: http://www.polymagnet.com/polymagnets/

07:04:36 assbot: Polymagnets - Correlated Magnetics ... ( http://bit.ly/22xRQyf )

07:15:14 hanbot: mod6 index idea could work, obvs hinges on whether i manage to organize something more precise/inclusive than a keyword grep'd put out. i'll look at it tomorrow/tues and report back.

07:16:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27950 @ 0.00041707 = 11.6571 BTC [-]

07:36:57 deedbot-: [Qntra] Roger VERified Outlet Gets Into Ether Huffing - http://qntra.net/2016/03/roger-verified-outlet-gets-into-ether-huffing/

07:43:11 mircea_popescu: hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag <string> and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ?

07:43:28 mircea_popescu: dunno that it'd fix anything per se, but perhaps give us the tools to better approach the problem ? dunno.

07:44:40 mircea_popescu: technically this exists already, actually, we could do tag-gossipd-cipher and then http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=%22tag-gossipd-cipher%22

07:44:41 assbot: 0 results for '"tag-gossipd-cipher"' - #bitcoin-assets search

07:45:49 BingoBoingo: lol be praised http://qntra.net/2016/03/woe-getting-business-internet-a-challenge-in-heart-of-silicon-valley/#comment-49211

07:45:51 assbot: Woe: Getting Business Internet A Challenge In Heart Of Silicon Valley | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/22rwiGN )

07:47:15 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i have traveled to africa. unless one means specially designated experimental lab (some towns in south africa etc), internet connection is poor.

07:47:57 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I cannot help the lulz that commenters bring, but I can appreciate them

07:48:05 mircea_popescu: tru.

07:52:14 BingoBoingo: Also in the latest qntra the Union flag as ether rag is apparently a srs thing, except they call it the "American" flag

07:52:23 BingoBoingo: fucking yankees

07:53:53 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

07:53:56 gribble: Current Blocks: 403600 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 1615 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 4 days, 14 hours, 50 minutes, and 56 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

07:54:00 BingoBoingo: ;;nethash

07:54:00 gribble: 1140007245.47

07:54:10 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

07:54:17 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 407.04, vol: 2161.73180920 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 410.998, vol: 3253.80324 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 407.98, vol: 5531.21963537 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 400.01, vol: 2.5 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 412.206, vol: 22003.15730000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 407.9, vol: 866.4854354 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 410.166468, vol: 10.65217551 | Volume-weighted last average: 410.956904542

08:41:13 deedbot-: [fraudsters] Slums of Beverly Hills - http://fraudsters.com/2016/slums-of-beverly-hills/

12:00:50 BingoBoingo: gribble seems a bit under the weather today

12:00:53 BingoBoingo: ;;goxlag

12:00:53 gribble: Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command.

12:01:01 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all

12:01:04 BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats

12:01:07 BingoBoingo: ;;nethash

12:01:08 gribble: Current Blocks: 403624 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 1591 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 1 hour, 16 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

12:01:09 gribble: 1134139562.46

12:01:09 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 408.49, vol: 2712.98115715 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 411.373, vol: 4067.4134 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 408.44, vol: 5606.41583417 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 400.01, vol: 2.5 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 413.89005, vol: 21416.36470000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 408.807, vol: 949.43468092 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 410.885946, vol: 7.94305105 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

12:01:15 BingoBoingo: ;;more

12:01:15 gribble: 412.154645761

12:09:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 250000 @ 0.000085 = 21.25 BTC [-]

12:12:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 147392 @ 0.000085 = 12.5283 BTC [-]

12:15:40 BingoBoingo: !t m s.nsa

12:15:40 assbot: [MPEX:S.NSA] 1D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000085 (454671 shares, 38.65 BTC), 7D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000085 (454671 shares, 38.65 BTC), 30D: 0.000085 / 0.000085 / 0.000086 (457671 shares, 38.90 BTC)

12:35:23 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437054 <<< logz!1111 >>> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-12-2015#1336224 << the mega-thread re inqtel (cia-operated hedge fund)

12:35:23 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 07:04:35; punkman: http://www.polymagnet.com/polymagnets/

12:35:23 assbot: Logged on 04-12-2015 04:06:08; asciilifeform: aaand this oddity, http://www.polymagnet.com

12:44:47 *: BingoBoingo just figured the polymagnet thing was jsut the new "broken glass"

12:44:52 BingoBoingo: But shittier

12:45:14 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437059 << fixing the search so it actually behaves sanely (EQUIVALENT TO GREP) would be almost as useful

12:45:14 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 07:43:11; mircea_popescu: hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag <string> and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ?

12:45:48 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: go buy and test, they are sold

12:46:15 asciilifeform: a hundy or so gets you a dozen kinds iirc

13:00:00 assbot: [MPEX] [FN] [F.MPIF] 50000 @ 0.000209 = 10.45 BTC [-]

13:02:32 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437065 << usaschwitz contains an africa : vast expanse of martian wasteland ~nobody gives half a shit about. it also contains a westerneurope: buncha decayed overcivilized folk with excess money that 'has to be harvested back from them or hyperinflation comes'. each of these prison zones gets abysmal net pipe for own reason.

13:02:32 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 07:47:15; mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i have traveled to africa. unless one means specially designated experimental lab (some towns in south africa etc), internet connection is poor.

13:04:36 asciilifeform: i live in the 'harvester'; BingoBoingo, i think - mars.

13:06:04 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437052 << no copro!111 l0l

13:06:04 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 06:49:38; BingoBoingo: http://www.plateoftheday.com/food_blog/brownie.gif

13:13:59 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: They are having a hard time hiding the recycling nowadays

13:19:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4200 @ 0.00041764 = 1.7541 BTC [+]

13:24:00 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: shouldn't debug.log be rotated?

13:24:10 thestringpuller: my debug.log file is now 200 megs

13:24:18 thestringpuller: manual process daily to rotate?!?

13:27:30 jurov: what manual? learn to set up logrotate, it's not so hard

13:28:50 shinohai: mv debug.log logs/$(date -d "today" +"%Y%m%d%H%M").log

13:32:13 thestringpuller: aha logrotate

13:48:22 shinohai: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ubuntubsd-first-release <<< I think I threw up a little when I read this.

13:48:23 assbot: UbuntuBSD Brings Ubuntu Atop The FreeBSD Kernel - Phoronix ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj8A88 )

14:16:59 jurov: shinohai: how did random pieces of software and wetware end up affecting your digestion?

14:17:54 shinohai: Marrying Ubuntu to anything makes me slightly queasy.

14:18:55 jurov: sounds like ubuntu was your precious daughter

14:20:55 BingoBoingo: !b 2

14:20:55 assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/25N0KYV.txt )

14:31:17 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1387250.msg14270969#msg14270969 << couple of process pictures from latest poster run

14:31:19 assbot: [35/100] "What is Bitcoin?" silkscreened posters [UPDATED DESIGN FOR 2016] ... ( http://bit.ly/1ScXeSA )

14:36:59 mircea_popescu: actually ubuntu sounds like a pretty decent name for the chicks BingoBoingo links.

14:37:17 shinohai: lol

14:38:02 mircea_popescu: "way down deep in the middle of the jungle a hippo humped a manatee and spawned a scary daughter - i know, we'll call her ubuntu!"

14:38:29 nubbins`: ;;seen funkenstein

14:38:29 gribble: funkenstein was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 1 week, 0 days, 14 hours, 43 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <funkenstein> !register 6B0D10D1878DE25B4DA2695AB2B6360488298AB6

14:39:16 nubbins`: ;;later tell funkenstein_ references to bezzlars removed! ^

14:39:16 gribble: The operation succeeded.

14:46:33 BingoBoingo: !up jjb1212

14:48:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 42429 @ 0.000085 = 3.6065 BTC [-]

14:52:49 asciilifeform: 'The inaugural release of UbuntuBSD is now available, which the developers have codenamed "Escape From SystemD", and pairs the Ubuntu userspace with the FreeBSD kernel. ' << l0l!

14:53:16 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437115 << folks with a crapple box are in for a treat when viewing this link

14:53:16 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 13:48:22; shinohai: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ubuntubsd-first-release <<< I think I threw up a little when I read this.

14:53:43 asciilifeform: (pops up a spam with 'your browser is infected!111 call this toll free number!11 complete with faux 'bsod' with vague mac theme, etc)

14:54:38 asciilifeform: ^ was 'malvertising', could not replicate for screenshot

14:55:54 phf: http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2016/03/open-letter-devoted-party-members-urge-xis-resignation/ is shit going down in china?

14:55:56 assbot: Loyal Party Members Urge Xi's Resignation - China Digital Times (CDT) ... ( http://bit.ly/1T45qXA )

14:58:12 asciilifeform: phf: dirty emigre press

14:58:15 BingoBoingo: lol http://qntra.net/2016/03/roger-verified-outlet-gets-into-ether-huffing/#comment-49226

14:58:16 assbot: Roger VERified Outlet Gets Into Ether Huffing | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Sd01v1 )

15:13:37 BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/Cc4Gx WIN

15:15:54 *: asciilifeform learns that there is/was some linux distro called... Pidora. almost fell off his chair.

15:17:50 phf: rpi fedora, that's apropos naming right there

15:19:21 asciilifeform: oughta be renamed to 'pedora' so that engl. speakerz might make sense of the true meaning!11

15:35:03 jurov: have you ever explained how this really relates to pederasty?

15:36:34 jurov: ah, it's in the logs, the prison thing

15:39:54 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag <string> and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ? << This could work -- it's in the vein of the 'BUTTSECKS' flag. Which seems simple enough. And the given topic-'tag' is a decent idea, i.e. 'OOM' or 'Cramer-Shoup' or 'keccak'

15:40:57 trinque: pffflol, dat variety speak!

15:41:22 trinque: I'm open to something like that; I've been doing a lot of work on deedbot lately

15:42:12 trinque: the cl-irc rewrite is nearly done... among other things, it can now, you know, stay online!

16:07:37 davout: I lol'd at bitbet's first bet: https://bitbet.us/bet/1

16:07:37 assbot: BitBet - Usagi FTW :: 0.11 B (14%) on Yes, 0.68 B (86%) on No | closed 3 years 6 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1XHvHKw )

16:09:21 BingoBoingo: lol

16:09:37 BingoBoingo: more innocent times

16:10:23 BingoBoingo: When middled aged teacher (or whatever) who thought they were japanese teenage girls were the biggest threat model

16:11:00 mod6: trinque: nice!

16:16:11 asciilifeform: https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#c5875 << mega-wankatron

16:16:12 assbot: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 1 week 5 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1pXwgVL )

16:56:58 jurov: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11317378 asciilifeform apparently you're not censored there anymore?

16:56:59 assbot: Vectored Signatures | Hacker News ... ( http://bit.ly/1pvFQi8 )

16:57:59 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437161 << mega-l0l! which one of you jokers posted.

16:57:59 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 16:56:58; jurov: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11317378 asciilifeform apparently you're not censored there anymore?

16:58:49 jurov: i don't have acct there, not interested so much as to solve their impossible captchas

16:59:46 asciilifeform: they didn't even ~have~ captchas last time i logged in...

16:59:57 jurov: not login, registration

17:00:11 asciilifeform: ah

17:01:59 asciilifeform: at any rate, to nobody's great surprise, rubbish site has rubbish commentz, and even these - few

17:02:14 asciilifeform: but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented.

17:02:28 asciilifeform: other than mircea_popescu who actually bothered to lift one hand

17:02:42 asciilifeform: the thing is about an actual problem, that oughta be dealt with imho.

17:02:43 jurov: oh, i like the proposal, except that i'm always two minds about anything

17:02:52 asciilifeform: let's hear the two+ minds ?

17:03:39 jurov: i mean, i'd prolly need one signature with "pros" and anther one with "cons"

17:04:55 asciilifeform: jurov: i initially thought about doing just 1 bit, 'sig' and 'antisig'

17:05:10 asciilifeform: then expanded to 2, then 4, then whole byte which may be pushing it

17:05:29 asciilifeform: (i found it necessary to distinguish signing 'i wrote this' from 'i modified' from 'i found it as is')

17:06:25 asciilifeform: the dimensions i ended up with are not accidental

17:06:34 asciilifeform: but literally the minimum i could think of.

17:08:12 jurov: yes, that's fine and neat.

17:08:36 asciilifeform: well not really, i'm not satisfied with the result.

17:08:45 asciilifeform: it is clunky.

17:08:50 jurov: but whole idea leans in the direction of peer review, which must be some text, not collection of flags

17:09:02 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented. << compute time on my wetware has been over subscribed lately

17:09:08 asciilifeform: smacks of the rfc4880 idiocy

17:10:34 asciilifeform: i even thought about subservient keys of some kind, to express disapproval / 'i-found-it-as-it-no-endorsement', etc.

17:10:38 asciilifeform: but this is even worse.

17:14:36 jurov: i can see the signature rather like S-expression with ID of the signed artifact, approve/disapprove/etc. bits which could be parsed and would have room for free text with any other nuances the signer wanted to add

17:15:04 trinque: that trends towards either enumerate-all-the-feelings or simply a wad of freeform text

17:15:06 trinque: I prefer the latter

17:15:27 trinque: a descriptive comment can explain why I signed just fine

17:15:30 jurov: no, i mean free text + some indexable bits

17:15:37 trinque: right, I am contradicting you :)

17:16:12 trinque: why index and machine-process what should be read and considered by a brain?

17:16:46 jurov: for poor vtron to be able to distinguish signatures and antisignatures

17:17:33 asciilifeform: ^

17:18:28 trinque: the argument has yet to be made that I'd rather have your anti-signature override my other wot member's signature, rather than your persuasion elsewhere having caused me to delete his signature

17:18:58 trinque: from my seals dir

17:19:24 trinque: reminds me of key revocation actually, in the bad way

17:19:25 jurov: no, not override anything, such thing is up for you to decide

17:19:56 jurov: vtron would just say to you that the antisig from your wot exists

17:20:19 trinque: how does it not trend towards facebook "reactions" for vpatches ?

17:21:14 jurov: that would be bad thing?

17:21:44 asciilifeform: trinque: consider a scenario where i review, e.g., glibc

17:21:45 jurov: and if your wot peer starts spamming with facebooky comments, just remove him

17:21:50 asciilifeform: and decide that it is a work of evil

17:21:56 asciilifeform: whose key will you remove? drepper's ? which we never ~had to begin with~ !

17:22:05 asciilifeform: right now i am stuck simply ~refusing to sign~ as a means of expressing disapproval

17:22:10 asciilifeform: which is moronic

17:22:59 trinque: I have an easier time seeing the benefit of a single bit of tarnish + description why

17:23:38 trinque: I don't think all the reasons for "why do I hate" can be represented usefully as a machine-grokkable header

17:23:41 asciilifeform: trinque: and what if not tarnish, but the simple-attest-without-approval ?

17:23:49 trinque: sign + description

17:23:50 asciilifeform: as in the given example with mircea_popescu and vintage bitcoin

17:24:16 trinque: "This is what it claims to be, and that is all I say about it." -- mp

17:24:43 asciilifeform: my argument is that there is a handful of EXTREMELY common situations re: signing that DON'T resolve to 'i approve of this'

17:24:50 asciilifeform: and that they are divisible into equivalence classes.

17:25:06 trinque: perhaps; that's my first stab at a reaction

17:25:10 *: trinque will ponder more

17:25:34 asciilifeform: and the point is not to excuse folks from the duty of writing comments

17:25:42 asciilifeform: but to make sure that certain situations are impossible

17:25:54 asciilifeform: i.e. of a vtron being confused by an enemy digging up ancient signed material.

17:26:24 asciilifeform: and likewise to make 'collect the words of great dead sage into coherent whole' a more workable proposition.

17:28:51 trinque: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-11-2015#1321452 << obligatory thread

17:28:51 assbot: Logged on 10-11-2015 22:25:29; mircea_popescu: ie, there, "it's not the job of the state to protect the cultural patrimony OF INDIVIDUALS and their clans ; if those individuals and clans are so degenerate, bankrupt and chlorotioc as to no longer be able to protect their heritage, let the worms havce it. no, not even for comunist metaphisics ; no, the property of x isn't "ours", no x's history isn't "ours". let them uphold it or let it die.

17:29:08 trinque: I see the benefit of "this seal is just a messenger"

17:29:18 asciilifeform: trinque: you are reminding me of the thread where i refused to solve the problem v solves initially

17:29:31 asciilifeform: because 'fuck you, collect patches and check sigs and determine order YOURSELF!111'

17:29:42 asciilifeform: 'reactor rodz!1111'

17:30:19 asciilifeform: but like it or not, we have right now a situation where folks are ~not signing patches.

17:30:26 asciilifeform: i can only speak for myself re: why

17:30:34 asciilifeform: but imho i outlined a major reason.

17:30:59 asciilifeform: it was EMINENTLY possible to build trb pre-v.

17:31:09 asciilifeform: yet various clever folks had trouble, e.g., mircea_popescu, hanbot

17:31:34 asciilifeform: likewise it is possible to sign other folks' patches today. yet not so many of us are doing it.

17:31:52 asciilifeform: and the all-or-nothing factor, i think, is part of it.

17:32:01 asciilifeform: i, for instance, can't bring myself to sign anything from polarbeard.

17:32:40 asciilifeform: nor do i have the stomach to sign v-genesis of ancient stuff, i struggled with the decision of whether to sign tinyscheme

17:32:47 asciilifeform: because i DO NOT ENDORSE IT WHOLESALE

17:32:54 asciilifeform: but there was no way to express this vtronically.

17:32:57 asciilifeform: and this BLOWS.

17:36:20 asciilifeform: << see, for example.

17:36:21 assbot: asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected ... ( http://bit.ly/1MjoIXu )

17:36:33 asciilifeform: this patch has 'all signers: mircea_popescu trinque asciilifeform mod6'

17:36:39 asciilifeform: NOBODY ELSE bothered ?!

17:36:43 asciilifeform: not ben_vulpes, even ?

17:36:57 asciilifeform: and this is a patch without which trb is ~dead in the water~

17:37:21 asciilifeform: so what should i conclude, that no one bothered to read ? to sign ? or that folks had reservations? which is it.

17:38:59 asciilifeform: nobody, i should add, really oughta be signing unless he is ~sure~. but sure OF WHAT???

17:39:09 asciilifeform: signing presently conveys ONE BIT of info, and it means... ?????

17:43:04 mod6: <+asciilifeform> this patch has 'all signers: mircea_popescu trinque asciilifeform mod6' << i'll note that this signatures you're referencing are strictly for genesis.vpatch

17:43:28 jurov: i consider whole trb thing as something that demands my full attention, and there's always something more urgent to do...

17:43:35 jurov: maybe i should have been reading and signing patches instead of doing the mempool abortion

17:43:42 mod6: further, all other vpatches are signed by me and me and you. there are some you haven't signed either.

17:44:28 mod6: jurov: your mempool work was important. reading the vpatches and the ml and the SoBA is important too -- and iirc doesn't take that long to get through most of them at this point

17:44:47 asciilifeform: mod6: definitely there are some i did not sign, i listed one earlier

17:45:16 asciilifeform: and i'm not trying to be an arse to folks re: signing, but would like to know some of the ~reasons~ things aren't getting signed

17:45:21 asciilifeform: i listed a big one for me.

17:45:35 mod6: yup ok

17:46:27 trinque: sure, for me it's "I cannot yet swear an oath to this" and could instead say "I have been running deedbot atop this successfully for x months"

17:48:57 asciilifeform: i still don't see why we can't have machine-distinguishability of 'i swear this is as i found it 5 years ago' vs 'i read and understood this' vs 'i wrote this and swear with my life that it will not fail'

17:49:35 trinque: I can see the pragmatism of it

17:50:02 asciilifeform: does anyone recall mircea_popescu's original push re: signing code ?

17:50:26 asciilifeform: there was this notion that folks might read old stuff and sign a subset

17:50:45 asciilifeform: well, the implicit 'i swear with my life to this' - leaves me reluctant to sign anything i did not write 100% of

17:51:24 asciilifeform: and a pretty big chunk of my efforts in reading ~questionable crud~, which i do a great deal of, is wasted

17:51:28 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i've been waiting for the "what does a signature convey" conversation to sign anything.

17:51:32 asciilifeform: in the sense that it leaves no serious perma-record.

17:51:41 asciilifeform: see there we have it.

17:51:59 ben_vulpes: right now, i expect to sign something half-baked that then crashes on some dirigible and gets me excommunicated

17:52:08 ben_vulpes: there is, so far, no "this sucks, but it introduces no new lies" bit.

17:53:26 asciilifeform: so this makes 2 of us.

17:56:19 thestringpuller: can signatures have numerical notation like GPG trustdb?

17:56:52 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: scalar is mega-inadequate.

17:56:57 asciilifeform: i rejected this idea immediately.

17:57:29 thestringpuller: it needs to be discrete?

17:58:03 asciilifeform: no, there is more than one dimension.

17:59:11 thestringpuller: so what else is there? linear? parabolic?

17:59:48 ben_vulpes: i was even uncomfortable signing the genesis vpatch. what does that even mean -- "this is actually some variant of satoshi's hairball"?

17:59:56 ben_vulpes: "this bitcoinates - i do swear"?

17:59:59 asciilifeform: see there we go

18:00:16 asciilifeform: i signed it, but it had a distinct feel of falling on a necessary grenade

18:00:27 ben_vulpes: "this may contain pernicious hdd-wrecking nasties i'm unaware of, but is the closest thing to a bitcoinator i know of"?

18:00:53 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: didja read my modest proposal thing ?

18:00:57 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: thoughts ?

18:01:26 ben_vulpes: i did.

18:02:01 ben_vulpes: still thinking.

18:02:40 ben_vulpes: it hints at ameliorating my concerns.

18:07:40 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437279 << quaternionic.

18:07:40 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 17:59:11; thestringpuller: so what else is there? linear? parabolic?

19:27:48 thestringpuller: "In mathematical field of representation theory, a quaternionic representation is a representation on a complex vector space V with an invariant quaternionic structure"

19:30:41 jurov: thestringpuller: "complex vector space" sounds like fitting description of human attitude toward the matter being signed

19:34:37 jurov: btw, i have misread first mention of it as "vectored thrust" and imagined "wow S.NSA is finally onto ICBMs. Or space program?"

19:36:20 asciilifeform: l0l

19:37:13 mircea_popescu: jurov> and if your wot peer starts spamming with facebooky comments, just remove him << it's not so simple, really. it's not a sudden and visible thing, just slow slide towards shitworld where you wake up one day and wonder wtf happened. much like irl marriages.

19:38:05 jurov: and sometimes it happens suddenly, like https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SWSqP8WFOdQ/Vu68Q-o05wI/AAAAAAAAJu0/rMYkpDTWpGk/w441-h221-no/rabbit%2Bpop.gif

19:38:07 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UJwZ8z )

19:38:28 asciilifeform: ^

19:39:48 nubbins`: went to fight a parking ticket today, the crown had no evidence and the cop who wrote the ticket didn't show up

19:39:49 nubbins`: sigh

19:40:37 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> right now, i expect to sign something half-baked that then crashes on some dirigible and gets me excommunicated << this is a very cogent point ; and i feel rather the same way.

19:41:12 mircea_popescu: haha win

19:41:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho single-bit scalar pgp is rather like car with sole control being a gas pedal.

19:41:41 mircea_popescu: i imagine that's a rabbit with a whiplash sore penis huh

19:42:58 nubbins`: asciilifeform multi-bit vector pgp sounds about as rat-nesty as a tag-based log tracking system

19:43:24 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i invite you to comment on my post, possibly suggest a cleaner solution to the problem ?

19:43:37 asciilifeform: nubbins`: because there is a very real problem.

19:44:22 mod6: <+asciilifeform> well, the implicit 'i swear with my life to this' - leaves me reluctant to sign anything i did not write 100% of << and who's to say, even if you wrote everything at one layer, that something doesn't fuck you in the butt from a layer below? we don't have computers. never did.

19:44:43 asciilifeform: mod6: separate issue.

19:45:28 mod6: but "i swear this werks!!", then someone runs your shit and it ~should~ work, but doesn't because of unforseen hardware, or configuration or cosmic rays.

19:45:38 mircea_popescu: mod6 that is the crux of the problem. there is no such thing as separatability in software anyway.

19:45:38 asciilifeform: ~this~ being specifically the this that you wrote.

19:45:50 mod6: nothing is certain.

19:45:51 asciilifeform: ~this~ aspect is separable.

19:46:01 mod6: we're all just rolling the dice.

19:46:20 asciilifeform: 'why wash hands? patients will die anyway'

19:46:21 asciilifeform: nonsense.

19:46:27 mircea_popescu: moreover, the issue of "it's kernel's fault" "no dude is program's fault" requires very complex analysis most people are unable to engage in, and in any case unable to finance even if they could somehow engage in it

19:46:27 mod6: hey hey

19:46:36 mod6: it doesn't mean that it's still not probablistic.

19:46:43 mircea_popescu: basically giving the day to the usual obamas with simple ideas and an insistence to repeat their nonsense.

19:46:44 nubbins`: asciilifeform no, on first chuff it looks sensible; not that much more long-winded than a file permissions block

19:46:46 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: since when do we 'most people'

19:46:47 mod6: 99.9995% of time it works. except for when it doesnt.

19:46:54 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform since you caqn't stop talking to them.

19:47:00 asciilifeform: l0l!

19:47:10 mircea_popescu: now plox to let me be.

19:47:31 mircea_popescu: mod6 in any case, the idea of responsibility in software is a lot more difficult to implement than previously hoped.

19:47:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: eh i didn't wake you up, did i

19:48:24 mod6: mircea_popescu: well, indeed. i mean, i can "swear and affirm" that my code won't fail you, but really, I can't be certain one way or another. too many variables.

19:48:46 mircea_popescu: and, importantly, if it WERE to fail, how would we resolve the problem if it is or it isn't your fault.

19:48:52 asciilifeform: imho the concept of taking responsibility for ~the material you wrote~ is not a difficult one

19:49:37 mircea_popescu: yeah, sure, not a difficult one for as long as one lives on imaginary half mil a year and theorizes away. in practice, it will not be seen, nor has it.

19:49:40 nubbins`: asciilifeform this also opens up the option for interesting filters, e.g. no need to display "heart" field if "brain" is 00, etc

19:49:58 mod6: mircea_popescu: formally, a group would have to be constructed to investigate and analyze failures and place blame where beyond required -- if it can be proved beyond any doubt.

19:50:15 mircea_popescu: and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work

19:50:21 mod6: for sure

19:50:25 mircea_popescu: much like it is cheaper for universities to universities than to actually teach anyone anything

19:50:33 mod6: hhaha

19:50:35 mod6: yes

19:50:38 asciilifeform: no shit

19:50:43 mircea_popescu: and moreover, even with the best of intentions, the defense of the group is expensive and arduous, and everyone's got better shit to do.

19:51:01 mod6: we're just at this moment in history where everything sucks.,

19:51:18 mod6: we have no computers, we have almost no sound money, everything is faux.

19:51:26 mircea_popescu: like in that film with the guy who keeps waking up in the same place.

19:51:43 asciilifeform: we are, however, overrun with vermin, and this opens up astonishing perspectives in pesticidal work

19:51:49 mod6: until we have computers, and i mean "have computers" in the sense that alf would be happy to say he has a "comptuer", whatever that means.

19:52:01 mod6: we can't have real true responsibiltiy of code ownership.

19:52:01 asciilifeform: mod6: last week i finally built... a computer.

19:52:05 asciilifeform: it runs on a 6502 !

19:52:06 mod6: no way

19:52:10 mod6: no fucking way

19:52:15 asciilifeform: you will prolly not want one.

19:52:19 asciilifeform: promise.

19:52:56 mod6: i may want one!

19:53:01 mod6: is it deterministic?!

19:53:05 mod6: turing complete?

19:53:07 asciilifeform: yes.

19:53:37 asciilifeform: but you already have, chances are, a 6502 micro somewhere in the cellar.

19:53:39 mod6: well, maybe alf is farther along on this journey than anyone had thought. and maybe "sucks" is only very temporary.

19:54:08 mircea_popescu: maybe.

19:54:11 mod6: but until we all have shit that doesn't suck... we're kinda just waiting until it doens't suck. in the context of blame and "i don't have to /hope/ this thing works, I know mod6 said it does, ergo, it works."

19:54:24 asciilifeform: mod6: it is a parachute, in case certain things happen.

19:54:26 mod6: is the 6502 those cocaine looking packages you got?

19:54:41 asciilifeform: mod6: that was support chipset, and a buncha z80

19:54:48 mod6: ah. thats right.

19:54:55 asciilifeform: (largely 74xxx logic, and buncha srams, eproms)

19:55:32 mod6: anyway, sorry for the rant. but it is not lost on me how hosed up "computer land" is these days.

19:56:15 mod6: its like a house in malibu, built on stilts, on the side of a hill that mud slides after .25" of rain.

19:56:28 asciilifeform: mod6: which is why islands of sanity are ~everything~.

19:56:28 mod6: worse probably.

19:57:44 mircea_popescu: the one problematic part is that stilts or no stilts, the product is actually very well adapted to the market it serves.

19:58:17 mircea_popescu: not like the actual malibu dwellers are coerced to live in the vinyl sidings abominations. meeting of the minds.

19:58:18 asciilifeform: real-airplane is largely wasted on aborigines, aha

20:05:47 mod6: haha.

20:05:51 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437332 << troika will decide!111

20:05:51 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 19:48:46; mircea_popescu: and, importantly, if it WERE to fail, how would we resolve the problem if it is or it isn't your fault.

20:08:48 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437334 << the distance from workable theory to cold iron here is quite short, and eminently bridgeable. if we had the usable theory. which is a problem i was taking a stab at.

20:08:48 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 19:49:37; mircea_popescu: yeah, sure, not a difficult one for as long as one lives on imaginary half mil a year and theorizes away. in practice, it will not be seen, nor has it.

20:09:45 asciilifeform: i keep getting the feeling that we only half-solved vtronics

20:09:59 asciilifeform: in the same sense that, e.g., edison, half-solved electric grid distribution

20:10:25 asciilifeform: now i could be wrong, entirely, and this-is-as-solved-as-it-gets

20:15:15 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437337 << the way i see it, the 'punishment' aspect of vtronics is secondary. the main thing is that ACTUAL PEOPLE, i.e. folks willing to ~take responsibility for their actions~, could find and recognize each other.

20:15:15 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 19:50:15; mircea_popescu: and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work

20:15:18 mod6: maybe having different keys (key certifing "i read this" [eyes] / "I wrote this" [hands] / ... etc.) is an analog for the polyphase system that replaced it.

20:15:31 asciilifeform: mod6: multitudes of keys are iffy

20:15:40 mod6: and you sign your vtron keys with your one regular key? i dunno.

20:16:39 asciilifeform: i actually considered this, in the beginning.

20:16:58 asciilifeform: 'subkeys' suck donkey ballz.

20:17:16 mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437337 << the way i see it, the 'punishment' aspect of vtronics is secondary. the main thing is that ACTUAL PEOPLE, i.e. folks willing to ~take responsibility for their actions~, could find and recognize each other. << i think so too. but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

20:17:16 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 19:50:15; mircea_popescu: and it is cheaper for this group to put forth an ideology than to do any actual investigative work

20:17:38 mod6: I think if people can make punishment first, they will. cause no == yes && yes == anal.

20:17:57 mod6: who's to say what is anything

20:18:25 mod6: Welcome nihlistic Monday

20:18:43 asciilifeform: whole point of the instrument is to ~make it possible for there to be such a thing as a Who~

20:18:56 asciilifeform: just as running water strongly enables, but does not guarantee, hygiene

20:19:02 asciilifeform: folks still gotta take the time to wash.

20:19:36 mod6: without quality random numbers, we can't have certifiable cryptographic identities.

20:20:04 mod6: who's to say anyone is anyone when P & Q are fingerfucked by the NSA or other spooks.

20:20:43 asciilifeform: !s the man who was thursday

20:20:44 assbot: 8 results for 'the man who was thursday' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=the+man+who+was+thursday

20:21:40 asciilifeform: am i the only one here right now who isn't sitting in a dark room with a bottle of vodka and loaded nagant ?

20:23:15 mod6: im no

20:23:16 mod6: t

20:23:24 mod6: anyway, that looks like an interesting novel.

20:24:24 davout: asciilifeform: with tmsr~ spanning a few timezones, there's bound to always be someone with an open bottle

20:24:39 mod6: But my good man, a serious cornerstone / building block to sanity and in the direction of "workable" computer will come when your work is complete and I can get quality random numbers.

20:24:57 mod6: other than some otp

20:25:17 asciilifeform: mod6: what do you mean 'some otp'

20:25:54 pete_dushenski: !s stuck node

20:25:55 assbot: 22 results for 'stuck node' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=stuck+node

20:25:59 asciilifeform: mod6: and i probably ought to point out that 'quality random' was baked long ago, ben_vulpes actually took a sample unit home after c3...

20:26:09 mod6: one guy!

20:26:26 mod6: ook anyway, one time pad - i can create with dice no?

20:26:37 mod6: now i gotta dig something up on fraudsters. thought there was an article?

20:26:39 pete_dushenski: http://dpaste.com/1PHC5RR.txt << my last 1000 lines of debug.log on my own stuck node, if anyone's interested

20:26:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1U2gm93 )

20:26:45 asciilifeform: mod6: debiasing dice is a bitch

20:26:49 pete_dushenski: it's jammed twice in the last week now.

20:27:48 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: how long has it been ?

20:28:00 mod6: asciilifeform: hm. im misremembering something. eitherway, outside of well, anywhere really, i can't think of a single place in the known universe where the nsa can't diddle your shit.

20:28:14 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: the most recent jam was at 403`396

20:28:34 asciilifeform: mod6: i am comfortable in the supposition that nsa cannot yet travel backwards in time.

20:29:16 asciilifeform: nor perform 'esp'

20:29:29 mod6: we've got a lot of stuff to fabricate and create.

20:29:51 asciilifeform: mod6: until then - to excavate.

20:30:08 mod6: ya. this hardware scares the bahjeesus out of me.

20:30:20 asciilifeform: megatonnes of perfectly-good 1980s lsi lying around.

20:30:41 mod6: i want like some 1971 vac shit.

20:34:03 mod6: i think i need to start doing all of my computing with paper and pencil, in a room with no doors, no windows or lights.

20:34:14 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: the weirder thing is that the stuck node is on the physical box i have, not either of the two vpses i have. and all are running 99997k or 99996k.

20:34:18 asciilifeform: mod6: l0l

20:34:30 asciilifeform: mod6: and if you were thinking of vax, 1st one was sold in, iirc, '77

20:34:45 mod6: ah,. yeah vax. i was kidding anyway.

20:35:06 mod6: i should look at some 80's hardware and see if I can spin up a rig.

20:35:30 asciilifeform: mod6: i started with this.

20:35:38 asciilifeform: mod6: prolly ought to share my observations here.

20:36:00 asciilifeform: ~actual, whole~ '80s micro is a good toy and learning instrument, but poor foundation for a battlefield system.

20:36:16 mod6: ah. hrm.

20:36:19 asciilifeform: largely because - while they were indeed built on top of some excellent 8-bit cpu, most of which can still be had -

20:38:44 asciilifeform: they also contained various custom i/o, that is gnarly, of heavy incidental complexity, and - importantly - cannot be had in new production

20:38:58 asciilifeform: and is not even in all cases 100% documented, so will be difficult to re-create.

20:39:24 asciilifeform: in other instances, there are anachronisms that create wholly unnecessary problems, e.g., tape and extinct disk systems

20:39:30 asciilifeform: whereas thing really oughta take modern 'flash'

20:39:47 mod6: Hmm.

20:40:26 mod6: pete_dushenski: i didn't see anything crazy in there. runnign with -connect or -addnode?

20:40:54 mod6: so i/o drivers need to be written by hand alf?

20:41:14 asciilifeform: mod6: 'drivers' is not really a meaningful concept on a 64k box

20:41:35 mod6: heheh

20:41:59 asciilifeform: this, i must add, is not an official s.nsa project of any kind. but it is there on my desk with a dozen other items of 'parachute' variety

20:42:39 asciilifeform: i once decided to determine the simplest box that could be assembled from readily-available (preferebly, sov-block) components, that could GENERATE and OPERATE a reasonable onetimepad.

20:42:54 asciilifeform: and carry out certain other operations

20:42:56 mod6: is it crazy to think that said chip you're talking about be re-constructed on a fpga, perhaps many of them on one fpga?

20:43:02 asciilifeform: (e.g., lamport signature; burn & verify eproms; etc)

20:43:07 pete_dushenski: mod6: -connect

20:43:20 asciilifeform: mod6: you could fit 500 of them on a cheap fpga. but you will be using an AMERICAN FPGA

20:43:25 pete_dushenski: mod6: to two of the b-a nodes and one of my own

20:43:27 asciilifeform: y'know, the ones with 0 docs

20:43:43 mod6: once fully sync'd pete_dushenski, make a back up your your block chain, and then use -addnode

20:44:20 pete_dushenski: mod6: will do :]

20:44:22 mod6: -connect is great for getting blocks from a trusted node, but you're only connected to just that node. so if there is some sort of blocking issue... you might get starved.

20:44:59 mod6: asciilifeform: do any worthwhile FPGAs' with open docs exist at any price?

20:45:15 asciilifeform: mod6: nope.

20:45:25 mod6: you've been over this a hundred times im sure.

20:45:26 mod6: sorry.

20:45:41 mod6: goddamnit. we need some sane hardware and quality random numbers.

20:45:51 phf: asciilifeform: but what i'd like to know is why none of you lot commented. << i'm not groking how that's supposed to work with gpg signatures

20:45:53 mod6: we'll get there.

20:47:24 mod6: phf: well, other than saying "interesting" and "cool", i couldn't figure out how to do that either. unless we create a vtron signature style in 'g' or is it 'p'? i cant recall.. cause how will someones vtron be able to pull the bit string out to know how to categorize someones seal?

20:47:45 mod6: this is all implementation and theory.

20:47:54 asciilifeform: if i'm gonna depend on an antique, i'd rather take one that was made in qty 500,000,000 in 11 countries. than 10,000 in usa-only.

20:48:01 mod6: I like the idea though. We just don't have the tools yet.

20:48:04 asciilifeform: phf: it isn't

20:48:46 asciilifeform: though i considered, brifly, hijacking the high bits of the timestamp 32b field for it

20:48:53 asciilifeform: (but decided that this was retarded)

20:48:57 asciilifeform: *briefly

20:49:10 mod6: asciilifeform: if the various bits for hands/eyes/heart/brain are not to be in anyway invovled with a signature, any thoughts on how we pass these around with the signature?

20:49:21 asciilifeform: mod6: this was deliberately not specified

20:49:23 mod6: oh, i see.

20:49:27 asciilifeform: there is no clean way to do it with classical gpg

20:49:30 mod6: gotcha

20:49:31 mod6: right

20:49:45 mod6: but since you're writing one... you could wrap that in there perhaps?

20:49:59 asciilifeform: aha.

20:50:19 mod6: werd.

20:55:29 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437473 << a CORRECT approach and literally 1 line of sed is worth 10,000 hours of misguided toolmaking.

20:55:29 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 20:48:01; mod6: I like the idea though. We just don't have the tools yet.

20:55:39 asciilifeform: think, e.g., 'vdiff'.

20:55:47 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437476 <<< why's that retarded? kindof the first thing i thought about when reading your piece

20:55:47 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 20:48:53; asciilifeform: (but decided that this was retarded)

20:55:57 asciilifeform: davout: because it breaks things.

20:56:08 asciilifeform: and, importantly, ~fails~ to break things that oughta break

20:56:12 trinque: asciilifeform: can you make yours give proper exit codes pls? :)

20:56:27 asciilifeform: trinque: waiwut

20:56:29 trinque: I was horrified to discover yesterday that gpg does not exit nonzero when a sig doesn't verify

20:56:42 asciilifeform: trinque: l0l! srsly? which gpg?!

20:56:48 trinque: it craps an error message, yes, but otherwise exit 0

20:56:58 trinque: 1.4.19 over here

20:57:15 davout: asciilifeform: specifically?

20:57:16 asciilifeform: and anyway why are you relying on the exit code ?

20:57:31 trinque: I'm not; just saw it while rewriting deedbot

20:57:58 asciilifeform: davout: if using format of classic gpg, there is no way to uniquely specify 'this is vtronically signed'

20:58:10 asciilifeform: so you will never know if sig is made by old or new.

20:58:33 phf: trinque: because gpg --verify is not intended to be used in batch process, if you're doing verification specifically should be using gpgv, which also expects env (keys in dbs specifically) to be in a certain state

20:58:37 asciilifeform: afaik using any reserved bits (algo field) will nuke ordinary gpg.

20:58:48 trinque: http://lists.gnupg.org/pipermail/gnupg-users/2004-August/023141.html << rationale

20:58:49 assbot: gpg --verify exit status ... ( http://bit.ly/1UzkL3g )

20:58:58 davout: asciilifeform: hardfork is indeed cleaner aha

21:00:18 davout: trinque: my 1.4.19 outputs 0 for correct sig, 1 for incorrect sig, 2 for unsigned data

21:03:21 trinque: davout: hm seems I might've been wrong

21:03:27 *: trinque fiddles moar

21:04:35 asciilifeform: trinque: motherfucking KEYRINGS arrggh

21:05:31 trinque: hm yeah, dunno how I was getting exit 0; might've been a case of having used inferior-shell wrong earlier

21:09:00 asciilifeform: phf: one of the big reasons gpg is a turd is the 'keys in dbs' idiocy

21:09:06 asciilifeform: FUCK hidden state

21:09:17 asciilifeform: state is what the motherfucking file system is for

21:09:22 asciilifeform: when it cannot be avoided

21:09:47 asciilifeform: and if it doesn't come in explicitly and deliberately through the command line or stdio, it doesn't belong in the input.

21:10:29 asciilifeform: FUCK every pissant proggy getting to have its own miniature version of the microshit winblowz 'registry'.

21:10:37 asciilifeform: if i wanted registry, i would fucking run winblowz.

21:10:55 *: asciilifeform froths, like a rabid dog

21:13:10 mod6: 'keyring' is alf's pavlovian trigger

21:13:32 asciilifeform: actually the bell and the food dish are my pavlovian trigger.

21:14:26 mod6: haha, what you hear the bell and you mentally think 'food' and you see food dish and think 'bell' ?

21:14:33 asciilifeform: aha!

21:15:15 trinque: as long as the filesystem in question lets me find things rapidly by searching over metadata, I will happily give up my black boxes of such

21:15:17 asciilifeform: neighbour trained the cats to come out of hiding when she bangs on the dish

21:15:18 phf: main reason gpg is turd, because was written for dos and frozen into spec that way. provided functionally is composite and doesn't "do one thing well". instead of freeform key annotation has explicit "name, email, comment" fields, instead of easy way to spawn many keys, has a convoluted key hierarchy, etc.

21:15:40 *: trinque mumbles about befs with bottle of booze in hand

21:15:45 asciilifeform: phf: you can always tell the smell of microshit

21:16:05 asciilifeform: and yes, ultimately it is why it has own idiotronic db

21:16:16 asciilifeform: because it 'had to' exist on idiot os with 8char filenames

21:17:11 asciilifeform: there are reasons why my first act re trb was to exterminate all compatibility with microshit

21:17:24 asciilifeform: because it merely being A THING is pernicious.

21:17:59 mod6: GnuPG-~1

21:18:05 mod6: stab

21:18:20 asciilifeform: you can't 'live and let live' with microshit.

21:18:26 asciilifeform: it will entumour you.

21:18:35 phf: i have love/hate relationship with dos

21:18:42 asciilifeform: phf: i think we all do

21:18:44 mod6: where does the love come in?

21:19:06 asciilifeform: mod6: mircea_popescu had a good article, iirc, on this. it was the last gasp of the 'my computer is mine and i know how it works' era.

21:19:33 asciilifeform: this, and also most of the games ever made that imho were worth playing, were on it.

21:19:37 asciilifeform: i will have a dos box until i die.

21:19:40 mod6: ah.

21:19:57 asciilifeform: and i don't think i will live long enough to fully exhaust the excellent gamez.

21:20:20 asciilifeform: dos pc was also the absolute pinnacle of the make-own-hardware era

21:20:42 asciilifeform: whereas go and try make a pci-e card.

21:20:43 phf: mod6: low cognitive load, for a significant payoff. great games, enough useful software to solve all day to day problems, a handful of dev environments (including emacs, gcc, clisp besides native Turbo * stuff) to solve any possible problems that might come up

21:21:01 asciilifeform: eh dos emacs sucked arse

21:21:36 asciilifeform: serious devs used turboc, or, in the very end days, watcom.

21:21:42 asciilifeform: (watcom rocked absolutely)

21:22:03 phf: i don't mean Emacs, but dos emacs is enough for the "i have text, i need to shape text into new text" tasks

21:22:11 asciilifeform: sure.

21:22:25 asciilifeform: i used norton commander's editor for 99% of things.

21:22:54 phf: so did i, but i mean this for the hypothetical, "move back to dos and fuck y'all" retreat :]

21:24:56 phf: like if forced i could spend rest of life with a dos machine, can't say the same for os x 10.10, but that of course assumes that i somehow don't ever have to work, and in fact live in a "concent" for the rest of life

21:25:19 asciilifeform: phf: this is pretty much my entire ambition in life

21:25:26 asciilifeform: i.e. to get to where i can just have the dos box.

21:26:02 mod6: let's rewrite everything in asm and scheme

21:26:05 *: mod6 runs

21:26:08 asciilifeform: (in proper 'concent', 'syndevs' not permitted!111 gotta write in ink, on paper from paper treez!)

21:31:06 mats: is this a slav thing, 'concent', 'syndevs'?

21:31:09 phf: i assume we're pre-second sack (or first for that matter)

21:31:15 mod6: speaking of which... if we were still going to use scheme, long-term, i'd probably re-write my vtron in scheme -- if for no other reason, to learn it.

21:31:44 mod6: but I think I might take a stab at writting it in ada so I can learn that with a proper example instead.

21:32:04 mod6: i dunno, maybe. need something useful to fuck around with to learn that stuff.

21:32:25 mod6: then maybe will be able to pitch in for adacoin

21:32:55 phf: mats: we're doing silly http://www.amazon.com/dp/006147410X references

21:32:57 assbot: Anathem: Neal Stephenson: 9780061474101: Amazon.com: Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1pvYoyN )

21:33:31 mats: ok

21:36:57 asciilifeform: mega-b000k

21:42:56 trinque: mod6: incidentally, list-o-megab00ks would be a great use case for that !tag thing

23:02:28 ben_vulpes: what, people don't maintain their own list of books as suggested by the individuals in chan?

23:02:38 ben_vulpes: what is this automating of the mental reactor rods!?

23:02:56 ben_vulpes: stay limber in your head and effective at your keyboard, and do everything manually why not

23:05:41 trinque: uh, no.

23:05:49 trinque: I want lists of things. I am not a damned secretary

23:06:23 *: ben_vulpes hands trinque a pineapple and broomstick

23:07:14 phf: i usually fail to come back to lists, but i think i've read most things recommended on b-a, the frequency is actually low enough that you can put things in a pile and catch up pretty fast

23:07:28 *: trinque puts pineapple on the end of broomstick, makes weapon

23:08:02 ben_vulpes: nono

23:08:05 ben_vulpes: for sitting

23:10:23 mod6: trinque: yeah for sure.

23:10:39 mircea_popescu: mod6 << i think so too. but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. << there is no possible division between "punishment" no matter how defined and trust in any reasonable sense. either what you say matters, in which case the world rapidly evolves towards "too hard for peoeple, who just want to..." or what you say doesn't matter, in which case the world rapidly evolves towards welfare state. it is what in math

23:10:39 mircea_popescu: ematics is known as a pole. attempts to create a netherworld between the sharply divergent f(x) and f(x+e) is what i've recently discovered - through the usual stepping on research process - to be a landmine.

23:11:33 mircea_popescu: in a different restatement, people "willing to take responsibility for their actions" only has an imaginary part, and no real part ; for the necessary reason that responsibility can not be defined coherently in the real space.

23:17:55 shinohai: http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/21/technology/doj-apple-hearing/index.html dun, dun DUN

23:17:56 assbot: DOJ may have found a way to hack into terrorist's iPhone - Mar. 21, 2016 ... ( http://bit.ly/1RgnCIO )

23:19:38 mircea_popescu: terrorists have iphones ? the weird world.

23:31:19 ben_vulpes: in more finely-tuned news: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/J85_ge_17a_turbojet_engine.jpg

23:31:22 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Rgpq4D )

23:34:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.NSA] 195000 @ 0.00005012 = 9.7734 BTC [-] {2}

23:35:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 379000 @ 0.00009 = 34.11 BTC [-] {2}

23:39:31 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437588 << waaaaiwut..?? did we uninvent wot now ?

23:39:31 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:11:33; mircea_popescu: in a different restatement, people "willing to take responsibility for their actions" only has an imaginary part, and no real part ; for the necessary reason that responsibility can not be defined coherently in the real space.

23:39:35 asciilifeform: what am i missing.

23:46:31 mircea_popescu: the wot is not related to this discussion.

23:46:55 mircea_popescu: FUCK every pissant proggy getting to have its own miniature version of the microshit winblowz 'registry'. << so true this.

23:47:16 mircea_popescu: it's stress syndrome already, lifeforms fully aware they live in shit. "i'ma make myself a house!"

23:47:16 asciilifeform: i thought whole point of wot was to a) bare your chest to the knife and b) to even have a chest

23:49:22 mircea_popescu: wot is not supporting of a single notion of identity. what x signature is varies irreconcillably among the users, by design and deliberately.

23:50:23 mircea_popescu: for the record, and to revisit that old definition of "public" ie the forum vs "private" ie the gynacaeum, something is public when it has what has been here referred to as a "real" part. ie, when it is possible to make a definition for it that is meaningful for everyone.

23:50:45 mircea_popescu: the wot is eminently private and so deeply irreducible to public that it doesn't even matter it is publicly visible

23:50:53 mircea_popescu: a model mirrored in the itnended design of gossipd.

23:50:53 asciilifeform: well signature comes with a mechanical algo for verification; everything beyond that is 'promise', rather than protocol

23:51:08 mircea_popescu: sure.

23:51:15 asciilifeform: but the thing about 'may as well not be visible' is dead on

23:51:34 asciilifeform: who the fuck knows what so-and-so's ratings ~really~ meant, but him and his inner circle (if that)

23:52:22 asciilifeform: which is why the gossip model of wot is the correct one, where there is no attempt at global/'canonical' state, but only a series of questions, which folks may choose to answer - or not - depending on who asks.

23:54:05 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437595 << somebody's packin' for a trip to mars or what.

23:54:05 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:35:26; assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 379000 @ 0.00009 = 34.11 BTC [-] {2}

23:55:36 jurov: !t m s.nsa

23:55:36 assbot: [MPEX:S.NSA] 1D: 0.00005 / 0.00007428 / 0.000085 (634821 shares, 47.16 BTC), 7D: 0.00005 / 0.00007517 / 0.000085 (692100 shares, 52.03 BTC), 30D: 0.00005 / 0.00007521 / 0.000086 (695100 shares, 52.28 BTC)

23:55:47 jurov: ^ martians, too?

23:56:04 asciilifeform: jurov: i meant, that somebody is selling megatonnes of various.

23:56:08 asciilifeform: incl. it

23:56:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5150 @ 0.00041827 = 2.1541 BTC [+] {2}

23:56:51 jurov: yes, and withdrawing.. and i have to ping mircea_popescu again

23:57:12 asciilifeform: l0l i thought jurov had already sold

23:57:32 mircea_popescu: aite.

23:58:57 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437604 << this is ~exactly~ what i was aiming at with 'v algebra' thing, to see if it is possible to expand the 'real part' of signature.

23:58:57 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:50:23; mircea_popescu: for the record, and to revisit that old definition of "public" ie the forum vs "private" ie the gynacaeum, something is public when it has what has been here referred to as a "real" part. ie, when it is possible to make a definition for it that is meaningful for everyone.

23:59:28 asciilifeform: i do not yet know if it is possible.