Transcript for 22-03-2016, 570 lines:
00:00:07 mircea_popescu: gynaeceum in any case.
00:01:11 asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu is presently in the 'nothing to be gained from machine-readable encodings of signature meanings' school of thought ?
00:02:07 mircea_popescu: i am currently of the " ' technology won't be solving human problems ' has been deeply abused and is taking its pound of flesh" school of thought.
00:02:30 asciilifeform: this i can see.
00:02:47 asciilifeform: even with my amoeba eye.
00:14:42 phf: <mircea_popescu> [20:02:06] i am currently of the " ' technology won't be solving human problems ' has been deeply abused and is taking its pound of flesh" school of thought. << i failed to parse, you saying "technology won't solve" has been overused, and there's need to lean in opposite direction?
00:15:06 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437589 << l0l, mcafee finally desoldered the nand for them? or one of the other 10,001 folks who offered.
00:15:06 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:17:55; shinohai: http://money.cnn.com/2016/03/21/technology/doj-apple-hearing/index.html dun, dun DUN
00:16:23 mircea_popescu: phf there's no need to lean or anything ; but the fact remains that if you're unhappy with the way in which fights between toddlers and adults are coming out, giving the toddlers fancier rifles is not likely to do much.
00:16:30 asciilifeform: (the real question is why usg would ever admit to it - whole point of the charade was to build precedent-setting verdict. i suppose this outcome became in doubt, and whole thing was brought to what is intended as a quiet burial ?)
00:16:45 mircea_popescu: pretty much the ~only way such an attempt ends up is into a f-35, sooner or later.
00:19:22 hanbot: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437059 << that sounds like the most sane solution on tap for efficiency & accuracy both. and honestly...crawling back through the last coupla weeks' logs to study this i couldn't really be paid. much as i'd like to lend some time to folks actually doing good work, this place is reeking rotten already.
00:19:22 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 07:43:11; mircea_popescu: hanbot mod6 maybe an extension to deedbot where people could go !tag <string> and then a collection of clickable tags is published somewhere, each leading to a list of loglines ?
00:20:19 asciilifeform: imho this is a spiffy idea. 'tagbot' ?
00:20:20 mircea_popescu: the all-permeating smell of the young male, eh ? supposedly the world is built on these, you know.
00:20:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on their corpses, not them as such
00:20:58 mircea_popescu: btw, let me introduce hanbot to you asciilifeform
00:21:05 mircea_popescu: i was of the notion you two had previously met.
00:21:07 hanbot: mircea_popescu i'm really interested in 'em, dead or alive.
00:21:13 asciilifeform: waiwut
00:21:17 hanbot: *not
00:21:32 asciilifeform: we met at c2 & 3
00:21:51 asciilifeform: and hanbot was my 1st contact here
00:22:48 mircea_popescu: see http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-03-2016#1426606
00:22:48 assbot: Logged on 08-03-2016 17:07:08; asciilifeform: anyway i do not know hanbot very well, cannot speak for hanbot.
00:23:38 asciilifeform: i know hanbot, as she knows i, largely by works.
00:23:53 asciilifeform: largely as i know mircea_popescu.
00:23:54 mircea_popescu: well it's good i said something then. anyway.
00:24:04 phf: prometheus was appropriately punished for his infraction, but little good that did
00:24:21 mircea_popescu: as this stuff usually works, eh.
00:24:57 *: asciilifeform finally grasps that mircea_popescu is going through the miserable l0gz
00:25:11 hanbot: mircea_popescu you know that line gave me pause at the time, but i figured he was entertaining the noisebox so what do i know what he's answering to. all in all though, pretty odd.
00:25:51 mircea_popescu: no, i'm not. i noticed it then, and was deeply surprised she was even considering doing anything ; not surprised in the end result.
00:26:29 asciilifeform: hanbot: to clarify, i meant that i cannot presume to speak for other people, esp. ones who i have not interacted with at great length
00:26:47 asciilifeform: i.e. i might have a crude emulated mircea_popescu living in my head, but not a very well developed hanbot
00:27:26 asciilifeform: btw my emulated micropopescu is stabbing me with a sharpened toothbrush. is this a correct spec behaviour ?
00:27:39 hanbot: eh, don't worry about it asciilifeform
00:31:38 phf: there was a blog in the early days of medium, that was basically snippets from irc conversations. my impression was that the display software was gradually hacked into turning out increasingly cleaner posts through various in-channel annotations, like ;tag, ;post, etc. there was significant amount of editorializing though. so someone was responsible, at the end of the thread, to turn it into a post. we kind of have that adhoc, and md
00:31:38 phf: does it the most, but we could help or outright automate the process through annotations
00:31:52 phf: *mp
00:32:30 phf: i periodically try and remember its name to plunder for ideas, but failing so far..
00:32:55 trinque: I'm nearly done with my deedbot- rewrite; I could add this as well. deed the list of tags per $interval or something
00:34:17 trinque: phf: took your example and wrote a CLOS thing for pluggable services.
00:35:30 phf: nice :)
00:35:33 trinque: new deedbot currently lurks in #deedbutt-test
00:36:05 trinque: guy even knows how to ghost his nick
00:36:54 asciilifeform: trinque: mighty spiffy
00:39:15 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and yes i am an arse! with no social graces! but my aspiration is that when i finally go to the woodchipper, folks will remember the pile of dead nazis, and not how i was arse.
00:40:26 trinque: asciilifeform: perhaps usg's threat is they will shame Apple in public unless they privately bend over more obediently
00:40:41 phf: "i don't speak for hanbot for hanbot has a tongue."
00:40:48 asciilifeform: phf ^ has it.
00:41:16 asciilifeform: trinque: how does a finger muppet 'privately' do anything to another finger muppet on the same glove ?
00:42:10 asciilifeform: phf: you may have been thinking of bash.org ?
00:42:24 trinque: perhaps usg asked something drastic enough apple is concerned
00:43:24 asciilifeform: trinque: nowhere in what crapple sells is there to be found anything posing so much as a temporary annoyance to hitler.
00:43:41 asciilifeform: (ditto google et al)
00:44:03 trinque: absent that I have to assume sheer incoherence on the part of hitler
00:44:22 asciilifeform: trinque: no incoherence, i can remove the motherfucking nand ~here~ in this godforsaken hovel
00:44:31 asciilifeform: and so can 10,000,001 other folks
00:44:34 trinque: incoherent that they ever made a public fight of it
00:44:37 trinque: given that.
00:45:00 asciilifeform: trinque: idea was to play stupid & set judicial precedent in favour of arbitrary do-what-we-say orders
00:45:05 phf: asciilifeform: nah, was actual blog, i started reading it when it had coherent topical posts, but studying their history, it started as snippets and gradually acquired features. like early posts were straight up logs, later names were stripped and only text from "posters" retained, etc.
00:45:22 asciilifeform: trinque: and also to make some noise, and give the 'aspiring terrorists should buy crapple devices!' honeytrap a boost
00:45:45 trinque: that I can see
00:46:49 asciilifeform: phf: now this i have never seen, but would like to, if you turn it up again
00:51:30 phf: but you can get general idea
00:52:03 asciilifeform: aha!
00:52:04 asciilifeform: very neat
00:52:20 asciilifeform: i esp. like the footer.
01:04:09 phf: old school snark
02:04:34 mircea_popescu: trinque> guy even knows how to ghost his nick << nice stuff.
02:05:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i once met a young girl who thought she is no good with math. she was creative you see, and on her grave was to be inscribed a vintage purse rather than a badly unresolved equation.
02:06:08 mircea_popescu: she can integrate now, and it didn't even take that many whippings.
02:06:33 asciilifeform: neato, where do i sign up!
02:07:45 asciilifeform: i'd like the badly unresolved eq on mine tho
02:07:52 asciilifeform: por favor.
02:09:29 gribble: The operation succeeded.
02:14:40 asciilifeform: !s vintage purse
02:15:13 asciilifeform: it was definitely shorthand for something
02:17:34 phf: asciilifeform: etsy as failed woman minimax, sort of the opposite of theorems
02:17:58 asciilifeform: aha i found the thread
02:19:04 asciilifeform: interestingly, if it were not for mircea_popescu , i would have never learned this
02:19:21 asciilifeform: that planet is entirely invisible from my optics
02:22:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> phf: you may have been thinking of bash.org ? << i don't think he is and i have a vague recollection of this from the very early 2000s that i also can't place
02:22:14 mircea_popescu: but if you asked me i'd have thought mine was romanian
02:23:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> trinque: idea was to play stupid & set judicial precedent in favour of arbitrary do-what-we-say orders << i think trinque is much closer to the facts of the field. beast doth not know what it wants not merely for the provable impossibility of such a want, but mostly for absence of a want organ.
02:24:39 asciilifeform: the latest twist suggests this.
02:25:35 asciilifeform: i can see no possible ~logic~ for announcing 'someone opened it' and torpedoing own case
02:26:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> now i want to find the cartoon! and watch. << http://documents.tips/documents/carte-balaica-si-bobocel.html
02:27:30 mircea_popescu: it wasn't a cartoon. it was a "book of practical activities for making puppets and designing scenes". superadvanced art stuff for ro genius kids
02:28:42 *: asciilifeform reads
02:30:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's story re wanting the jewels reminds me of mine
02:30:55 asciilifeform: i begged my elder brother to give me, somehow, some ~numbers~
02:31:03 asciilifeform: as in, physical
02:31:29 asciilifeform: somehow the notion entered my head that this was possible
02:31:44 mircea_popescu: poor woman
02:31:51 mircea_popescu: o wait, your brother ?
02:32:02 asciilifeform: he found some toy puzzle thing that nominally satisfied, but i knew it was a sham.
02:33:26 asciilifeform: and i wouldn't listen to any explanation of how it couldn't be done.
02:34:09 mircea_popescu: pretty tall order.
02:35:36 phf: give me here on a platter the head of john the baptist
02:36:43 mircea_popescu: that at least could be satisfied. even in 80s cold dark romania, proper jools could in principle be had.
02:36:44 mircea_popescu: but numbers ?
02:37:46 asciilifeform: aha.
02:37:51 mircea_popescu: much long ago, when chet was a young woman, with children like many here she tried to prepare herself, like many here try. so she had an answer all ready for the eventual inevitable moment her oldest was going to inquire why the sky is blue.
02:38:00 mircea_popescu: the child wanted to know "why sky".
02:38:24 asciilifeform: aha! WHY?!
02:39:05 mircea_popescu: go, tell three year old that the sky isn't a thing, pristina rosa, all that.
02:40:21 mircea_popescu: in other crazy news, i just popped (ie, got a major loot) in eulora. 1+ bitcent's worth of brave man's nosehairs.
02:40:29 mircea_popescu: like 60k of the things.
03:04:08 mod6: thanks for the pointer asciilifeform
03:04:34 asciilifeform: mod6: i also liked http://www.adaic.org/resources/add_content/docs/distilled/adadistilled.pdf
03:04:43 asciilifeform: (113 pgs)
03:05:03 mod6: oh yeah, this first link is a trove of examples. nice.
03:07:02 mod6: If the software must absolutely work wit
03:07:02 mod6: hout error, where a software accident could
03:07:04 mod6: kill or maim, Ada is the correct choice.
03:07:11 mod6: sounds like the right idea
03:07:59 asciilifeform: sorta why i unearthed it.
03:08:18 phf: (load-canonical-entries)
03:08:31 phf: oops, my first ben_vulpes
03:08:37 asciilifeform: l0l!
03:10:32 mod6: haha
03:10:56 mod6: there have been, three people iirc that have pasted their passwords in here
03:11:17 asciilifeform: mod6: i got into ada ~1y ago. and it was ~very~ reluctantly.
03:12:01 asciilifeform: it is a very painful thing, to work in. to the point that as early as the first months folks made jokes that it was a ploy to bog down soviet research establishment, plan being that they would copy it and grind to a halt !
03:12:17 mod6: yeah, i'd seen the name before, but never heard anything about it until you were talkin about it. now it interests me because bitcoin needs to work better than a goddamn 777
03:12:22 asciilifeform: (su, afaik, never took it up, but pascal was strong there)
03:12:49 mod6: hahaha
03:13:26 mod6: well, we'll see when i start getting into it. ive liked playing with scheme.
03:13:38 asciilifeform: i can almost guarantee you won't like ada then.
03:13:45 mod6: i've bee working my way though all the examples in sicp
03:14:43 mod6: eh, im sure if i get the hang of its conventions, etc., i'll get somehow masochistically into it.
03:15:05 asciilifeform: the canonical text is by one barnes
03:15:11 asciilifeform: i have the 2012 ed.
03:15:25 mod6: oh i got that one ref manual from 95
03:15:43 asciilifeform: (the ~actual~ canon is the standard and rationale books, but they are painful to learn from when n00b)
03:16:02 mod6: yeah, flipping through the book -- it's pretty dense.
03:17:08 mod6: Ada 95 Reference Manual. Language and Standard Libraries: International Standard << this one
03:20:41 mod6: is tail recursion always defined such that there are O(n) steps in O(1) space?
03:21:00 asciilifeform: mod6: only if you have tail-call optimization
03:21:03 asciilifeform: as in, e.g., scheme
03:21:08 mircea_popescu: if its optiminm
03:21:09 asciilifeform: but not, for the most part, anywhere else
03:21:56 mod6: right, they said something about C/C++/et.al that have a loop construct such as 'do/while' 'for' 'foreach' etc, as a defect in the lang. lol
03:23:04 mircea_popescu: did everyone see the funarg funerales argentinos thing ?
03:23:11 asciilifeform: aha!
03:23:12 mircea_popescu: it's still making me chuckle.
03:23:34 asciilifeform: they solved the funarg problem!11
03:24:27 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, bitcoin needs not merely a "protocol standard".
03:24:35 mircea_popescu: it needs the fucking standard AND RATIONALE book.
03:24:43 asciilifeform: quite.
03:25:08 mircea_popescu: and we won't even fucking know the standard is anything but elaborate cumcake until the rationale part stands up.
03:25:14 asciilifeform: it was the rationale b000k that sold me on putting on the apocalyptic gas mask and doing ada at all.
03:25:52 mircea_popescu: and we don't even have the fucking conceptual girder to even comprehend what the rationale'd be on (in terms of, what are the primitives)
03:26:21 mircea_popescu: maybe it should be all based on colors for all we know.
03:26:28 asciilifeform: quaternions!11
03:28:06 mats: on a moar flippant note,
03:28:34 mats: i found a 24x36in wooden frame and currently looking for pranks to play with it (apr1 is fast approaching)
03:29:10 mats: my best idea is to print a hi-res portrait of a coworker and put something like 'January 1985 to March 2016' at the bottom, then hide in the office somewhere
03:29:22 mats: but, i am open to proposals
03:30:33 mircea_popescu: make a fake wasp nest ?
03:33:13 mats: (idea with prior is, folks see portrait, then coworker, wonder why a dead man is walking around)
03:34:19 mats: a wasps nest could be good, however, i am not strong in the crafting arts
03:37:53 mats: i also considered a portrait of myself, perhaps in a classic mao pose
03:39:06 mats: or deng xiaoping
04:03:19 mod6: works, seems will take some getting used to though.
04:07:38 asciilifeform: congrats mod6!
04:10:59 asciilifeform: ada isn't, contrary to appearances, simply a 'bloated c' though.
04:11:49 asciilifeform: it has some mighty aggressive sanity enforcement mechanisms, that really shine in larger proggy.
04:17:47 mod6: coo
04:19:24 mod6: i'll have to keep picking away at it.
05:18:47 ben_vulpes: tmsr
05:18:50 ben_vulpes: motherfucking moving target
06:09:08 deedbot-: accepted: 1
06:55:00 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-03-2016#1437592 <<< sexy!
06:55:00 assbot: Logged on 21-03-2016 23:31:19; ben_vulpes: in more finely-tuned news: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/J85_ge_17a_turbojet_engine.jpg
07:42:21 BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1437635 << They want a new test case. Dialectic continues.
07:42:21 assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 00:16:30; asciilifeform: (the real question is why usg would ever admit to it - whole point of the charade was to build precedent-setting verdict. i suppose this outcome became in doubt, and whole thing was brought to what is intended as a quiet burial ?)
08:39:33 BingoBoingo: I thought JCVD was supposed to keep these things from happening in Belgium because Action Movie!
10:05:54 jurov: http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/visiting-scarfolk/ british culture ftw
10:06:41 jurov: "Children carry more than 72 known diseases. A bite or scratch can be fatal."
10:07:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17169 @ 0.00041887 = 7.1916 BTC [+]
12:19:03 davout: major french newspaper writes about blocksize debate Oo
12:19:08 deedbot-: [Qntra] Gawker Media Total Damages Up To 140.1 Million dollars - http://qntra.net/2016/03/gawker-media-total-damages-up-to-140-1-million-dollars/
12:21:58 *: BingoBoingo enjoys the "actual damages" getting nice round numbers while punitive damages get a decimal point
12:40:22 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1437820 << just when usg cryptowarz were sagging... snackbar!111
12:40:22 assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 08:18:50; mats: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/mar/22/brussels-airport-explosions-live-updates
12:41:25 asciilifeform: related orlol: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-color-counterrevolution-cometh.html
12:42:28 asciilifeform: where he drinks the loljuice,
12:42:36 asciilifeform: 'As I said, the Washington régime is just as hated within the US as it is around the world, if not more. Trump's slogan of “Make America great again!” may sound overly ambitious, but what if his promise is to make America great again at exactly one thing—throwing members of the Washington régime on the ground and stomping on their heads until they pop? I am pretty sure that he can get this done.'
12:44:39 jurov: orlov believes in trump?
12:47:29 asciilifeform: jurov: apparently
13:00:28 asciilifeform: 'You see, in the US hatred of the Washington régime runs very deep, with millions of people sick and tired of being swindled by various hated bureaucracies—in government, law, medicine, education, the military, banking... They hate those who took away their jobs and gave them to foreigners and immigrants. They hate those who stole their retirement savings and ruined their children's futures. They hate the smug university type
13:00:28 asciilifeform: making them feel inadequate simply for being who they are—salt of the earth Americans, racist, bigoted, small-minded, parochial, willfully ignorant, armed to the teeth and proud of it. There is very little that the régime can ask of these people, because the response to every possible ask is “no, because we hate you.”'
13:15:01 asciilifeform: in other lulz,
13:15:07 asciilifeform: from today's server logz,
13:16:07 jurov: these are http requests to your server?
15:00:57 asciilifeform: jurov: aha
15:01:02 asciilifeform: referheaderspam.
15:32:42 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2016/republican-history-of-jewry/ << here you go phf
15:48:36 deedbot-: [fraudsters] Republican History of Jewry - http://fraudsters.com/2016/republican-history-of-jewry/
15:51:45 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> motherfucking moving target << check out the premonitory quality of the vulpes.
15:52:38 mircea_popescu: "querelle de chapelle" eh.
15:55:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that technically, the machine can be powered on anything. soviets dekulakized the very dekulakizers at least twice ; mao did it at least once,
15:56:12 mircea_popescu: there's nothing special about the various clones of bill de blasio that prevents them from being made into soap.
15:56:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, best soap
15:58:03 mircea_popescu: answer't.
16:03:00 mircea_popescu: great documentary. (i'm also a crumb fan, so)
16:03:36 asciilifeform: i have not, but it sounds like precisely my sort of thing.
16:03:41 *: asciilifeform puts on list
16:03:52 mircea_popescu: it's one of the best made documentaries i ever saw.
16:04:02 mircea_popescu: zwigoff has the decency to stfu and stay away.
16:04:23 asciilifeform: mouth-watering
16:04:25 asciilifeform: srsly
16:16:57 asciilifeform: '... the horde of imbeciles trying to destroy the tower of actual people is very properly the French attack' << inescapably, >> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-08-2014#809506 << mental image
16:16:57 assbot: Logged on 26-08-2014 01:48:43; asciilifeform: even this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Animation/SuurToll has a page.
16:17:52 asciilifeform: mega-recommended cartoon, it shows what my mental picture of mircea_popescu looks like
16:20:06 asciilifeform: ( giant, flattens thousands of orcs by wielding an old piece of junk, for as long as he can )
16:36:22 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 http://www.cs.uni.edu/~mccormic/AdaEssentials/toc.htm << another golden oldie
16:36:23 gribble: The operation succeeded.
16:45:41 kakobrekla: for mp and others: http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-formal-application-and-letter-of-intent/#comment-8200
17:30:50 asciilifeform: https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#c5881 << lulzy
18:20:13 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
18:20:21 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 416.24, vol: 3765.96832155 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 413.851, vol: 5469.25419 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 416.84, vol: 10558.83503659 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 419.745285, vol: 33763.96200000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 415.47, vol: 2197.14009358 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 421.410112, vol: 38.75157245 | Volume-weighted last average: 418.213873349
18:32:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i think i saw this engine in person
18:36:41 ben_vulpes: neato!
19:12:28 BingoBoingo: Toronto Mayor Rob Ford has passed away
19:13:56 nubbins`: former mayor!
19:14:20 nubbins`: i would've put money on a heart attack, perhaps exacerbated by drug use, not cancer
19:14:48 phf: ben_vulpes: do you know any css libraries that will give me bootstrap style layout techniques, without rest of bootstrap (columns, show/hide conditional based on medium)
19:16:13 trinque: phf: ever use flexbox? something resembling a layout system ended up in the standard itself
19:16:54 trinque: my approach tends to be to set different flexbox rules depending on viewport size
19:17:45 phf: that looks neat, but is there a compiler that adds retro compatibility?
19:21:20 phf: that's a bit too many dirty words for my taste, but i'll give it a try
19:25:21 deedbot-: [Qntra] Brussels Attacked – Western Dream Likely Over - http://qntra.net/2016/03/brussels-attacked-western-dream-likely-over/
19:34:34 asciilifeform: !up mrottenkolber
19:35:06 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: v-related question?
19:36:58 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: ask away, you are speaking with author of original v
19:40:27 asciilifeform: in unrelated nyooz,
19:40:36 asciilifeform: ^^ l337 w4r3z!111 ^^
19:44:34 nubbins`: !
19:44:42 nubbins`: asciilifeform did you receive yr textiles yet?
19:47:02 mrottenkolber: asciilifeform: So I dowloaded v99.tar.gz because I thought it was a cool hack, and expected the following to work: (inside the v99 directory): ./v.py -v --wot wot --seals sigs patches f
19:47:13 mrottenkolber: asciilifeform: But I get WARNING: asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig is an INVALID seal for asciilifeform-kills-integer-retardation.vpatch !
19:47:42 nubbins`: mrottenkolber did you try manually verifying the sig?
19:51:05 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: mod6 packaged a since-expired key for me in that thing
19:51:09 asciilifeform: and afaik never updated.
19:51:18 mrottenkolber: asciilifeform: yep I think thats it.
19:51:46 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: get current one from http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB98228A001ABFFC7 or http://www.loper-os.org/pgp.asc
19:54:30 mrottenkolber: Cool works.
19:55:20 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: enjoy
19:56:21 mrottenkolber: Naive question: what would be the implications of using sha1 instead of sha512 in vdiff? (thinking about porting V to git hooks/aliases)
19:57:32 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: sha1 is obsolete
19:58:06 asciilifeform: forget about using it. for anything.
19:58:38 asciilifeform: and porting v onto git is considerably more of a waste of time than the reins on early motorcars
19:58:50 asciilifeform: the WHOLE POINT of v is to ditch git and all things like it.
20:01:24 asciilifeform: whatever things in git world you miss in v, they were excluded DELIBERATELY
20:04:46 asciilifeform: !up mrottenkolber
20:05:36 asciilifeform: no explicit use, for instance, is made of the network.
20:05:44 asciilifeform: it is entirely up to you how to get new patches into and out of the box
20:05:50 asciilifeform: can use sneakernet and floppies if you like.
20:05:56 mrottenkolber: or git? ;-)
20:06:02 asciilifeform: or carrier pigeon.
20:07:22 asciilifeform: and yes, you are free to replace the hash with sha1 or md5 or crc32 or whatever, just like you are free to buy a toyota and drive it off a cliff
20:07:34 asciilifeform: neither i nor toyota have any business saying what you do.
20:08:18 mrottenkolber: My point is the toposort isn't really part of the problem v solves. The function is to cryptographically verfiy a sequence of patches (based on a wot), who cares where that sequence comes from, as long as each patch (commit) has a signature.
20:08:50 asciilifeform: the toposort ~is~ part of it.
20:08:59 asciilifeform: without it, you just have a bag of patches, to be sorted manually
20:09:10 asciilifeform: which you did not need a program for, could have done it without me just as well
20:09:50 asciilifeform: likewise, the file hashes ~are~ a part of v, it is how you know that the prescribed flow of patches is being successfully followed.
20:09:59 asciilifeform: again, without this, you have 'faith-based' patching.
20:10:23 asciilifeform: the nailing down of the BITWISE identities of the intermediates, ~is~ part of the point of v.
20:11:14 asciilifeform: the correct context in which v is to be understood is that it is: a weapon of war.
20:11:21 asciilifeform: there is an enemy.
20:12:02 trinque: !up Alopex
20:12:06 trinque: !up B0g4r7__
20:12:09 asciilifeform: the primary weapon of the enemy is the morass of 'nobody read this, nobody understood this' crapolade that 'everything depends on'
20:12:12 asciilifeform: e.g., git.
20:12:14 asciilifeform: e.g., dns.
20:12:37 phf: mrottenkolber: if that's your only goal, you don't need v for that. git already does it for you by having a linearly hashed commit chain. right now you have a reasonable way of verifying the git chain from the top hash, but you can't make any crypto claims about it, since the hashes are sha1
20:13:10 asciilifeform: the modus operandi of the enemy is to insert 'bugs', e.g., 'heartbleed', and to prevent attribution.
20:13:24 asciilifeform: 'everything' in 'open source' was written by 'everybody and nobody'.
20:13:33 asciilifeform: v is so as to put an end to this idiocy.
20:13:48 mrottenkolber: phf: That's why I thought about adding signatures of “git vdiff” to commit messages and an alias/command to verify a branch.
20:14:57 asciilifeform: phf: not only are git hashes sha1, but git itself is a gigantic bag of ?????.
20:15:07 asciilifeform: that i for one have not read nor verified, nor intend to
20:15:14 asciilifeform: wake me up when it's 100 lines TOTAL
20:15:31 mrottenkolber: asciilifeform: what about diff and gnupg?
20:15:48 mrottenkolber: actually nvm
20:15:51 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: these are in the queue for replacement.
20:15:59 asciilifeform: by things that WE wrote and UNDERSTAND.
20:16:31 asciilifeform: but yes, they are sore spots, and due for the chopping block.
20:16:43 mrottenkolber: I have to say I like your spirit very much.
20:17:00 asciilifeform: it is total war.
20:17:07 mrottenkolber: its always been
20:17:12 mrottenkolber: I guess
20:17:31 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: consider getting in the wot, i will rate you.
20:17:35 asciilifeform: you will be able to voice.
20:17:59 phf: asciilifeform: well, you can verify data without verifying git. i've done it, and the thing definitely produces a semblance of "blockchain", i.e. later commits hashes previous commits' hashes, so you can if you ignore the sha1 issue, take a git branch and confirm its uniqueness from the final hash
20:18:27 mrottenkolber: will probably not be chatting that much, but I am very keen of actually starting to build some wotness. My gpg is useless right now its so bare.
20:18:27 asciilifeform: phf: thing is that i have no intention of ignoring the sha1 issue. sha1 is ~broken~.
20:19:03 mrottenkolber: yeah no, you would have to compute sha512
20:19:24 mrottenkolber: which is possible, just not as convenient
20:21:42 asciilifeform: 'convenient' does not enter into this.
20:22:05 asciilifeform: using a curtain instead of front door to your house is also likewise 'convenient'
20:23:04 mrottenkolber: !register 76EB8DE4EA28A5C4746C71AA7C7F34CDCF4CDA75
20:23:04 assbot: Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: 76EB8DE4EA28A5C4746C71AA7C7F34CDCF4CDA75. This may take a few moments.
20:23:04 assbot: Key CF4CDA75 / "Max Rottenkolber <email@example.com>" successfully imported.
20:23:04 assbot: Registration successful.
20:23:29 mrottenkolber: booya
20:24:43 phf: mrottenkolber: a better place to wire v would be mercurial's mq facility. mercurial has a way of managing plaintext patchsets, to do things like patch refresh, i.e update the contents of patch from the current tree state, mercurial managed patch press, i.e. instead of doing "manual" v press hg will keep track of state for you, etc. this will not be a way to share patches, as much as a way to facilitate vpatch authoring.
20:24:49 asciilifeform: !rate mrottenkolber 1 new blood
20:25:33 asciilifeform: !assbot:asciilifeform.rate.mrottenkolber.1:68c6afed7ec0113bb290a9e2f0b609f2ea8216f0d0820a80a690cf9960e20096
20:25:36 asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.mrottenkolber.1:68c6afed7ec0113bb290a9e2f0b609f2ea8216f0d0820a80a690cf9960e20096
20:25:36 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for mrottenkolber with note: new blood
20:25:49 mrottenkolber: I am only mentioning the sha1 option because I don't understand crypto well enough to be able to rationalize the effort of producing a file, with the same sha1sum, with an exploit while the patch still applies.
20:26:28 mrottenkolber: Obviously, I wouldn't bet on it.
20:27:10 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: you should be able to voice yourself now.
20:27:34 mrottenkolber: But e.g. in my head, if you spend 70k to compute a sha1 collision, it won't look like C code probably ;-)
20:27:50 mrottenkolber: (complete speculation)
20:28:07 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: this is not the important bit. a collision will successfully interfere with the function of automated vtrons, e.g., one where patches are thrown into a hopper unattended
20:28:26 asciilifeform: even if the result does not resemble code
20:28:51 mrottenkolber: hopper?
20:29:13 asciilifeform: well suppose you have a box which accepts patches via email, as jurov has.
20:32:00 asciilifeform: congrats mrottenkolber
20:32:07 mrottenkolber: Cool bot!
20:32:34 mrottenkolber: But... am I even connected using ssl? no idea
20:32:35 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: how did you come upon b-a ?
20:32:42 mircea_popescu: will be signign the davout application later today myself.
20:33:13 mrottenkolber: I read about v and liked the hack, ran into the expired signature and well...
20:33:22 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: read where
20:33:34 mrottenkolber: HN probably
20:33:43 mircea_popescu: mrottenkolber> Naive question: what would be the implications of using sha1 instead of sha512 in vdiff? << roughly speaking you'd be going back in time, we're by and large in the process of moving to sha-3
20:35:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something tells me commenter has never seen hyenas. wtf, some of the most social animals, in its good days washington dc polite society more or less approximates pack of hyenas.
20:35:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha!
20:35:17 asciilifeform: they do! i have seen.
20:35:30 mrottenkolber: I have absolutely no interest in bitcoin to be honest, don't see the point.
20:35:45 asciilifeform: 'After the burial-parties leave. And the baffled kites have fled;. The wise hyænas come out at eve. To take account of our dead. '
20:35:48 asciilifeform: (kipling)
20:35:49 mircea_popescu: mrottenkolber nothing i said was related to bitcoin, was it ?
20:36:19 mrottenkolber: mircea_popescu: No, sorry, still mumbling aout the why I am in b-a
20:36:24 mircea_popescu: ah ah.
20:36:37 asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: you are in good company, i also do not use bitcoin with any appreciable frequency...
20:36:47 asciilifeform: v and bitcoin are related by happenstance, as git and linux kernel were.
20:37:02 mircea_popescu: well if you're curious, free money is the basis for the existence of the republic which is the reason stuff like v ended up existing. but i suppose from outside this string of actual events may as well be coincidental.
20:39:46 mrottenkolber: I totally get why bitcoin development motivates v, obviously there is motivation for adversaries here.
20:39:46 mrottenkolber: what republic though?
20:41:35 mrottenkolber: I am indeed using ssl to connect to freenode, this assbot thing might actually work. :D
20:42:00 mircea_popescu: !s tmsr
20:42:50 phf: we're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. we take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
20:43:03 mircea_popescu: turns out, re prev tagging discussion, that ... we're already doing a rudimentary, grassroots sort of that.
20:43:12 trinque: there's some lovely filth over here!
20:43:19 mrottenkolber: oh anarcho-syndicalism I dig that
20:43:25 mircea_popescu: but my main concern with that scheme, upon meditation, is that... ok, brace yourselves :
20:43:37 mircea_popescu: mrottenkolber don't kid yourself, they're living in a dictator sheep.
20:43:43 phf: trinque: now you're confusing it with eulora
20:43:53 trinque: lol
20:44:10 mircea_popescu: so, IF we start tagging things in chan, this is indistinguishable from good old spam. (textual content of no textual intent).
20:44:20 mircea_popescu: i suppose this could be mediated by doing the tagging over pm
20:44:46 mircea_popescu: but the problem is actually hairer than hoped.
20:46:25 trinque: hm. it does invite that abominable hashtag social media tic.
20:47:34 davout: please no #b-ashtags
20:47:48 phf: #meta #tmsr~
20:48:15 davout: if nobody remembers how to find a particular thread, maybe that thread isn't really worth remembering after all
20:48:49 mircea_popescu: davout the original complaint was re completeness.
20:49:10 mircea_popescu: if someone, as oft is the case for say mod6, is trying to make the whole pile of what was said abvout X, they encounter a very present difficulty.
20:49:32 davout: re the mp describes a HF that danielpbarron ended up blawging about?
20:49:45 mircea_popescu: sorry ?
20:50:13 mircea_popescu: phf either b,tmsr~ or else tmsr! there is no tmsr~!
20:50:56 davout: ok, i meant that this issue came up when you were talking about "what should go into a tmsr fork" that danielpbarron ended up summarizing on his blog?
20:51:32 mircea_popescu: ah yeah i think that was when it came up
20:52:10 davout: anyway, my point is that if nobody remembers, that nobody bothered to blog it, the fact that completeness is a problem might indicate a violation of fits-in-head
20:52:26 mircea_popescu: so it might, yeah...
20:52:51 ben_vulpes: fitting in head requires lopping all extraneous log comments off.
20:52:58 mircea_popescu: would actually the idea of pm tagging for each DAY solve anything / be worth anything ?
20:53:12 mircea_popescu: or is it the sort of midway solution that's the average of man and woman and horse and chimney ?
20:53:13 ben_vulpes: i recently took a 45 minute sojourn into the history of "protocol vs. promise"
20:53:48 ben_vulpes: 'twas not actually that hard, but it did take knowing the variety speak thoroughly.
20:53:58 davout: mircea_popescu: maybe use log.b-a.com for that purpose? how would pm tagging work?
20:54:19 mircea_popescu: the sad fact of the matter is that summarization squarely relies on ignorance. there's no obvious way around that rock.
20:54:39 mircea_popescu: davout you pm deedbot with a list of strings which it retains for the day, prints a cloud somewhere, one can click items in cloud to get list of days so tagged
20:54:47 mircea_popescu: but the complexity of this notion is rapidly expanding.
20:54:51 ben_vulpes: another good topic is "specificity of diddling".
20:55:17 ben_vulpes: i have been failing to shit words on the topic out because i think of familiarity with it. it all seems so obvious!
20:56:07 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes happens to me all the time! then alf runs off and invents it and i'm like fuuuu wasn't this on fraudsters!
20:56:23 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=22-11-2015#1329599 << summarization also relies on knowing precisely what /can/ be snipped.
20:56:23 assbot: Logged on 22-11-2015 06:30:10; mircea_popescu: abstraction is loss. you throw out all sorts of stuff and hope&pray that it wasn't actually needed.
20:56:34 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what can be snipped FOR WHOM.
20:56:38 ben_vulpes: catch-22
20:56:57 mircea_popescu: ~only way to make a shorter text reliably is to rely on specified notation known in advance.
20:57:25 mircea_popescu: otherwise, "compression" still an open problem.
20:58:47 mircea_popescu: !rate mrottenkolber 1 New blood
20:59:10 mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.mrottenkolber.1:7ae7bb4fe0a9bf41b838dc065d19fceca42142f999e7016fa2cd143e92a2412f
20:59:10 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for mrottenkolber with note: New blood
21:00:04 mircea_popescu: phf i heard this privately too, during rebasing debate, "pretty much the only way to manage this insanity is to put it on mercurial"
21:00:29 mircea_popescu: mrottenkolber> Obviously, I wouldn't bet on it. << trivial, add comment.
21:00:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: still regretting not doing that ?
21:00:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform doing what ?
21:00:55 asciilifeform: (someone iirc actually said 'use darcs')
21:01:01 asciilifeform: going with heathen versionatrons
21:01:32 mircea_popescu: non, rien de rien, je ne regrette rien! ni le bon, ni le mal...
21:01:39 asciilifeform: ^
21:02:02 mircea_popescu: i wish she was in fucking b-a.
21:02:36 asciilifeform: can we also haz marilyn m ?
21:02:55 mircea_popescu: what do you need buttgirl in irc for ? buy her lunch.
21:03:33 asciilifeform: point.
21:03:46 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1438049 << the only solution is with actual brainz, folks writin' articles.
21:03:46 assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 20:49:10; mircea_popescu: if someone, as oft is the case for say mod6, is trying to make the whole pile of what was said abvout X, they encounter a very present difficulty.
21:04:02 asciilifeform: sorta what pete_dushenski was trying to do at one time
21:04:04 asciilifeform: iirc
21:04:05 mircea_popescu: sorry, can't have brainz. zombies ate them ~all.
21:04:18 phf: mercurial has a handy patch management mechanism, that unfortunatly doesn't understand nor produces vpatches. i basically verify vpatches manually, and then put them into hg's patch folder. then i do a topo sort, which gives me a mercurial compatible "series" file. i let mercurial press it using that series file. whole process is more complicated then should be with a proper mercurial support, but i hnfi how people rebase, refresh,
21:04:18 phf: diff, etc. without it
21:05:24 phf: mechanism has nothing to do with "mercurial" as such, and is more akin to old school patch management system, "quilt"
21:06:28 mircea_popescu: not like it couldn't in principle be gutted/rewritten in part.
21:06:30 ben_vulpes: i press to confirm patch validity and then commit the changes to my local version controlatron.
21:06:43 ben_vulpes: that way i can rebase, etc whenever i care to.
21:06:46 mircea_popescu: chocolatron ?
21:06:54 mircea_popescu: o nm.
21:07:01 asciilifeform: am i the only one without fancy mechanisms here ?
21:07:09 ben_vulpes: what about this is fancy?
21:07:10 mircea_popescu: nah, i generally don't do any of that either.
21:07:20 mircea_popescu: then again, the people who aren't me that actually care/understand computers tend to .
21:07:20 asciilifeform: i use v + bare teeth
21:07:43 ben_vulpes: yes but you like pain
21:07:52 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i like right pain
21:07:58 asciilifeform: not idiot rote
21:08:20 asciilifeform: but i was reluctant to write v, if you recall, because i considered the problem it solves to be a trivial / muscle thing
21:08:27 ben_vulpes: aha
21:08:34 asciilifeform: but iirc mircea_popescu & hanbot et al disagreed, so v had to be.
21:08:59 mircea_popescu: it's splendid, really. the fact that i can run it on a random box and trust the result pales anything else.
21:09:02 ben_vulpes: perhaps the *other* way to go about this is simply to make patches against the base 0.5.3, and then anyone wanting to apply them may do so in whatever order they choose, resolving conflicts as they feel.
21:09:20 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: this'd result in gargantuan lengths of duplicated crapola
21:09:24 asciilifeform: ick
21:09:28 mircea_popescu: well alternatively one could also shit on exposed cable and let the bits sort themselves into software as they will
21:09:28 ben_vulpes: why?
21:09:37 mircea_popescu: why the hell not. how much worse than present situation could it be.
21:09:38 ben_vulpes: onm.
21:09:39 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'm not reading a MB of crud i've seen before.
21:09:49 asciilifeform: i'd rather shit in the cable.
21:09:53 ben_vulpes: yes yes
21:09:53 asciilifeform: as per mircea_popescu's formula.
21:09:55 ben_vulpes: fine.
21:10:28 asciilifeform: understand, a 10kB patch is ~LONG~
21:10:39 mircea_popescu: no, v is great even if painful - because it's painful to the right people, which are the people who aren't me.
21:11:18 ben_vulpes: and only if used as a hammer and not microscope.
21:11:28 mircea_popescu: that's the other thjing.
21:11:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is also very painful to the enemy at the business end of the barrel, which is what matters
21:11:53 asciilifeform: but yes, like kalash, it is not built for comfort of the wielder so much as for maximum effect.
21:11:54 mircea_popescu: that's what i said!
21:12:45 asciilifeform: kalash is not even my model for imitation, but closer to... japanese lance mine.
21:25:08 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1438070 << aaaactually mircea_popescu invented specificity-of-diddling-theorem, i just heavisided it
21:25:08 assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 20:56:07; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes happens to me all the time! then alf runs off and invents it and i'm like fuuuu wasn't this on fraudsters!
21:26:17 asciilifeform: well, he ampered it, at least, and i did some of the maxwellizing and pretty much all of the heavisiding.
21:31:26 mircea_popescu: eh, the chinese invented it 3k years ago
21:31:47 mircea_popescu: invention is like true love. you gotta be a certain age to believe it with all your heart.
21:31:55 mircea_popescu: hopefully you never get old enough to credit it altogether.
21:32:06 mircea_popescu: to stop crediting it altogether, i mean.
21:33:52 asciilifeform: going for modest thing here, not trooo luvvv, but good fuq.
21:34:03 asciilifeform: this - can be had.
21:40:53 *: davout guesses that's one field where stuff done by hand is actually easier
22:06:42 nubbins`: !up benrav
22:08:15 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1437915 << possibly, i have not yet picked it up
22:08:15 assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 19:44:42; nubbins`: asciilifeform did you receive yr textiles yet?
22:08:44 asciilifeform: nubbins`: the post in my town keeps 'banker hours'
22:09:53 nubbins`: banking, where the hours are great even if the pay sucks
22:19:31 nubbins`: so i built a "hackintosh" computer, just realized i hadn't bothered to put the video card into the thing
22:28:00 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: boxes do not get delivered to your domicile?
22:28:49 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: valuable/unique items from ~humans~, i like to sit at the post
22:30:02 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: parcels from commercial mega-vendors, can go to the house, if they get misplaced insurance pays.
22:31:23 ben_vulpes: this is a special hell of paranoia, asciilifeform.
22:32:46 mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats
22:32:50 gribble: Current Blocks: 403836 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 1379 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 6 hours, 7 minutes, and 14 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
22:33:09 mircea_popescu: !up benrav
22:33:51 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: we have diagnosable tards delivering parcels, they often end up miles away, for no discernible reason
22:59:58 gernika: apropos of nothing, I just attempted to download a .pdf formatted datasheet and received a PDF FORMATTED error message.
23:09:24 mircea_popescu: not bad lol.
23:11:04 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-03-2016#1437833 << i just read that and lolled. seriously, piece pretending nsa-gavin is somehow involved in or related to bitcoin ? leading with a quote from karpeles ? is this yves eudes hardcore trolling the collection of wanna-be derps that read le monde or what ?
23:11:04 assbot: Logged on 22-03-2016 12:19:03; davout: major french newspaper writes about blocksize debate Oo
23:12:16 davout: where do you see a karpeles quote?
23:12:19 davout: "Victime de son succès" ?
23:12:21 mircea_popescu: well ?
23:13:47 davout: well what?
23:14:00 mircea_popescu: yes, that.
23:14:10 mircea_popescu: "bitcoin in terms of gavin and maku kalaposu", a pretty good satirical premise, i grant.
23:14:25 davout: anyway, the article is obviously a massive piece of shit, maybe you'll be interdasted in http://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2015/12/09/le-fondateur-du-bitcoin-enfin-demasque_4827912_4408996.html
23:14:30 mrottenkolber: I preset... git-vdiff.sh (ducks): https://gist.github.com/eugeneia/7d34c270f8d1603c48f0
23:14:51 mircea_popescu: you pressed ?
23:15:20 mircea_popescu: !up locksley
23:22:05 mrottenkolber: it is
23:22:15 mrottenkolber: I found https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Tools-Signing-Your-Work by the way
23:22:49 mrottenkolber: Not sure what `git commit -S' signs exactly, but...
23:27:00 mrottenkolber: assuming it signs the whole commit object, given `merge --verify-signatures' is probably reasonably secure.
23:27:14 mrottenkolber: Which I guess would be the parallel to press
23:29:30 ben_vulpes: mrottenkolber: forgive my thickness but /why/ are you doing this?
23:32:28 mrottenkolber: research
23:34:39 trinque: +mrottenkolber │ assuming ... is probably reasonably secure. << pls do not give poor asciilifeform an early death by ulcer
23:42:53 asciilifeform: http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2016/02/a-3d-printed-sundial-displays-time-like-a-digital-clock << mega-pr0gr355555
23:45:17 mircea_popescu: lol they finally found the true vocation of 3d printed items, glorified doorstops ?