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Transcript for 22-08-2015, 1535 lines:

00:00:16 mircea_popescu: if the signed thing is not a thing, or if the signed thing is not available fgor my eyes, no problem has in fact been solved.

00:00:46 asciilifeform: i spoke of this earlier today;

00:01:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31350 @ 0.00068843 = 21.5823 BTC [-] {2}

00:01:01 asciilifeform: where a pgp signature is so retardedly structured that it cannot be verified at all without the original matter

00:01:06 asciilifeform: (it lacks the complete hash!)

00:01:29 asciilifeform: incidentally there is an implication of this, which ought to be obvious

00:01:34 asciilifeform: and terrifying.

00:01:40 mircea_popescu: deep restructuring of the pgp implementation is required anyway.

00:01:45 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-08-2015#1247703 << court did not impose peine forte et dure ?! that's how it used to work..

00:01:45 assbot: Logged on 21-08-2015 23:09:56; mircea_popescu: fucking abcnews. the defense didn't "decline to do so". the defense DECLINED TO RECOGNISE THE COURT!

00:02:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47150 @ 0.00066787 = 31.4901 BTC [-] {2}

00:02:03 mircea_popescu: 1. full rsa. 2. proper signature encapsulation. 3. sane structuring of the keys. 4. etfc.

00:04:16 asciilifeform: since nobody said it...

00:05:11 asciilifeform: rfc4480 sayeth, '5.2.3. Version 4 Signature Packet Format.... [buncha crud snipped] ... Two-octet field holding the left 16 bits of the signed hash value. One or more multiprecision integers comprising the signature. ...'

00:05:14 asciilifeform: obvious yet?

00:05:19 asciilifeform: or do i have to draw the picture here.

00:05:37 mircea_popescu: heh.

00:05:45 mircea_popescu: who the fuck specs like this for crying out loud

00:05:47 asciilifeform: WE'VE BEEN SIGNING 16-BIT HASHES

00:05:51 mircea_popescu: "two octet"

00:05:52 asciilifeform: motherfuckers.

00:06:07 mircea_popescu: because why, because youyr mother had two abortions ?

00:06:08 asciilifeform: in effect.

00:06:21 asciilifeform: sit and think about this for a minute.

00:06:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the LEFT 16 bits ?

00:06:32 mircea_popescu: omfg this whole thing is useless.

00:06:49 *: asciilifeform brainmelt

00:06:54 mircea_popescu: bwahahahaah

00:06:58 mircea_popescu: no, see, reddit was right

00:07:02 mircea_popescu: we're fucking idiots over here :D

00:07:45 mircea_popescu: i guess the next top priority in making cardano which was making bitcoin which was making vdiff is now making gpg.

00:07:47 asciilifeform: i will wait for one of you lot to point out where i somehow am mistaken.

00:08:04 asciilifeform: but yes, you can guess how i arrived at this tidbit.

00:08:08 *: mircea_popescu off to read rfc4480 for the expecterd comedic value

00:08:24 asciilifeform: i've been walking around with a bound hardcopy of that thing for most of a year

00:08:30 asciilifeform: slowly scribbling on it, laying out out

00:08:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i guess by being spurred by my recent statement and going into a "let's verify this" mode ?

00:08:34 asciilifeform: in my head, with pencil

00:08:41 asciilifeform: actually coincident

00:10:20 mircea_popescu: 5.2.3. Version 4 Signature Packet Format

00:10:55 punkman: "The concatenation of the data being signed and the signature data from the version number through the hashed subpacket data (inclusive) is hashed. The resulting hash value is what is signed. The left 16 bits of the hash are included in the Signature packet to provide a quick test to reject some invalid signatures."

00:11:22 mircea_popescu: The concatenation of the data being signed and the signature data from the version number through the hashed subpacket data (inclusive) is hashed. The resulting hash value is what is signed. The left 16 bits of the hash are included in the Signature packet to provide a quick test to reject some invalid signatures.

00:11:22 punkman: asciilifeform: so... no, it's not THAT bad.

00:11:27 mircea_popescu: it is not THAT bad

00:11:29 mircea_popescu: ahaha mkay.

00:11:48 mircea_popescu: it is still not how i'd do it.

00:12:35 *: mircea_popescu expects to live in a world where everything is done EXACTLY as he would do it. failure of perceptible world to conform to this expectation is a crime, more serious than any other, and to be punished by destruction.

00:13:08 mircea_popescu: steal, fine. suck at stealing -> go die in a fire.

00:14:15 mircea_popescu: competent thieves should be convicted to jail. incompetent thieves should be broken apart with a small hammer.

00:15:24 asciilifeform: punkman: think.

00:15:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: think.

00:15:32 mircea_popescu: yes ?

00:15:37 mats: Fun fact: the first Minuteman missiles ran off a hard disk as the only available memory. Reads/writes/jumps had to be scheduled to avoid pipeline stalling for a full rotation.

00:15:48 asciilifeform: mats: see also:

00:15:50 asciilifeform: !s minuteman

00:15:50 assbot: 14 results for 'minuteman' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=minuteman

00:15:54 mats: If subroutines were used, they were implemented by writing the return address to their end then jumping.

00:16:24 asciilifeform: mats: and this is still done in mechanical hdd design, see 'elevator' algo.

00:16:57 asciilifeform: punkman, mircea_popescu: can you think of any ~legit~ reason to store only 16 bits of the hash that was signed ?

00:17:04 mircea_popescu: nope.

00:17:09 asciilifeform: me neither.

00:17:12 mats: asciilifeform: I didn't know that. cool.

00:17:17 asciilifeform: but i can think of a pretty good illegitimate one.

00:17:20 mircea_popescu: but still, the situation is not equivalent to "singatures are trivially defeated in the field"

00:17:25 asciilifeform: not trivially, no.

00:17:25 mircea_popescu: me too, but nevertheless.

00:17:29 mircea_popescu: right.

00:17:37 mircea_popescu: hence the comments i an i presume him, made.

00:17:46 asciilifeform: but can now formulate the equation.

00:17:53 mircea_popescu: do.

00:18:59 punkman: you'll have to spell it out for me

00:19:06 *: asciilifeform retreats to the mathematical room

00:21:08 mircea_popescu: anyway, there's no question left that a usable extant pgp implementaton exists. this should be redone.

00:21:12 phf: asciilifeform: maybe hash size is variable where's they wanted to go with fixed size headers. so no matter size of hash you only store first two octets

00:21:35 mircea_popescu: phf so what does that help ?

00:21:42 punkman: phf, it is variable indeed

00:21:46 mircea_popescu: collision on 16 bits of sha512 is trivial.

00:21:59 punkman: and what does collision get you

00:22:08 mircea_popescu: nothinmg, but by this principle let;'s stick to md5/

00:22:39 mircea_popescu: moreover, it's just miserable product design.

00:22:50 phf: mircea_popescu: i ~assume~ the intent is to speed up failure

00:22:55 mircea_popescu: i do not wish to eat in the restaurant where they piss in the beer, irrespective of any other consideration.

00:23:04 mircea_popescu: phf people without wot presence may not have intent.

00:23:15 mircea_popescu: the intent is to rape and pillage, for all orcs, by virtue of being orcs.

00:23:32 phf: if the first two octets don't match you don't have to go through the rest of the signature verification process, since at that point you already know that the signature is invalid

00:23:54 mircea_popescu: and why two.

00:24:19 mircea_popescu: and why is it that all the phuctor bad sigs we see are two octet mirrors.

00:24:58 asciilifeform: fingerprint collision diddles, entirely other castle wall scaled by orcs

00:25:10 asciilifeform: (with some success, as i gather)

00:25:17 mircea_popescu: must be.

00:26:03 asciilifeform: 'The concatenation of the data being signed and the signature data from the version number through the hashed subpacket data (inclusive) is hashed. The resulting hash value is what is signed. The left 16 bits of the hash are included in the Signature packet to provide a quick test to reject some invalid signatures.'

00:26:20 mircea_popescu: ;;google "N-ai fost acolo s-auzi tot ce-am auzit. N-ai fost acolo sa vezi tot ce am vazut. N-ai fost acolo sa vezi tot ce am facut. N-ai fost acolo sa vezi prin tot ce am trecut."

00:26:21 gribble: Pânza de minciuni. | Scriu pentru ca nimeni nu asculta..: https://bineledinrau.wordpress.com/; Dan Necşa | Trăieşte, iubeşte, respectă, ai grijă, dar nu te ataşa!: https://dannecsa.wordpress.com/; La mormantul lui ARSENIE BOCA. Parintele a lasat cu limba de ...: https://intamplarisavante.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/la-mormantul-lui-arsenie-boca-parintele-a-lasat-cu- (1 more message)

00:26:29 mircea_popescu: derp google.

00:26:55 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is thgat the most likely to be quoted snippet ?

00:27:32 punkman: plenty of success with that "Scallion was used to find collisions for every 32bit key id in the Web of Trust's strong set demonstrating how insecure 32bit key ids are."

00:27:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l, i get this: http://webkind.ru/text/989416971_946024927p581069957_text_pesni_n-ai-fost-acolo.html

00:27:44 assbot: Слова песни N-ai fost acolo, текст песни ... ( http://bit.ly/1NAUI7A )

00:27:54 asciilifeform: punkman: aha, old nyooz

00:28:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite.

00:28:57 mircea_popescu: slova pesni = text pesni lol

00:30:44 punkman: https://github.com/coruus/cooperpair/tree/master/pgpv4 key collision for v4, scallion attack was for v3 I think

00:30:45 assbot: cooperpair/pgpv4 at master · coruus/cooperpair · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1NAUUnm )

00:31:39 mircea_popescu: basically we're uncovering a decade old, very fragile rube goldberg machine

00:31:47 mircea_popescu: to subvert thew pgp i npractice.

00:32:44 mircea_popescu: hey hayden... you sucked lol

00:33:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43800 @ 0.00070518 = 30.8869 BTC [+] {3}

00:35:15 asciilifeform: 'Most OpenPGP software use 64-bit keyids internally, and rely on 64-bit keyids present in issuer id packets.' < ahaha.

00:35:36 *: asciilifeform always, always regrets what he finds.

00:35:49 asciilifeform: this is likely why so few with the shovels

00:35:55 asciilifeform: nobody wants to see what is under that garden.

00:37:56 punkman: might as well repost this too, if you've never edited your gpg config, start here: https://github.com/coruus/cooperpair/blob/master/saneprefs/gpg.conf

00:37:57 assbot: cooperpair/gpg.conf at master · coruus/cooperpair · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1KB5DZF )

00:39:19 punkman: "# Use a real encryption algorithm to protect the secret keyring, rather than CAST5." << relevant to certain folks that didn't mind posting their encrypted keyrings to keybase.io

00:39:45 mircea_popescu: "a" is bullshit.

00:39:49 mircea_popescu: what do we say, twofish ?

00:40:33 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: weren't you the one with the 'why do we need block cipher at all' concept ?

00:40:43 mircea_popescu: yes. but meanwhile.

00:41:10 mircea_popescu: in principle, i will say "block cipher" is exactly, EXACTLY, provably as retarded as "reusable otp via prng".,

00:41:16 asciilifeform: while we're at it, copying in from my handwritten 'pgp is retarded' notebook,

00:41:32 asciilifeform: 'why the fuck is there no provision for multilayer use of multiple blockciphersystems'

00:41:43 mircea_popescu: because that doesn't help anything.

00:41:57 asciilifeform: it helps in precisely the same way as multiple parachutes

00:42:04 mircea_popescu: no.

00:42:21 mircea_popescu: it helps in precisely the same way as multiple surgical interventions.

00:42:29 mircea_popescu: if one didn't help, ten won't eiother.

00:42:31 asciilifeform: (knowing weak keys in aes does not break the message if under it is, e.g., twofish, with DISTINCT KEY)

00:42:44 mircea_popescu: fuck or get off the woman.

00:42:44 asciilifeform: tards use same key, yes

00:42:53 asciilifeform: (for separate layers)

00:43:20 mircea_popescu: no dude, spare me. either this problem is solved or woirked on.

00:43:27 mircea_popescu: chaining is for the brothel.

00:43:48 asciilifeform: block cipher gets 'solved' no more than steel girders can be 'solved.'

00:43:52 asciilifeform: can make thicker, or thinner

00:43:54 mircea_popescu: not so.

00:43:54 phf: could it also increases known-plaintext attack possibilities?

00:43:58 asciilifeform: but not infinitely rigid.

00:44:03 mircea_popescu: phf it necessarily would.

00:44:07 mircea_popescu: and other issues.

00:44:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform either you make me an infinitely rigid girder or i don;'t want anything to do with you.

00:44:29 asciilifeform: phf, mircea_popescu: how, if the layers use distinct keys, each en-rsa'd separately ?

00:44:33 mircea_popescu: it's computing for a reason. THIS is the reason.

00:45:11 *: asciilifeform reminds mircea_popescu that factoring has not been proven np-hard much less np-complete

00:45:21 asciilifeform: hence we have no mega-magicalgirder.

00:45:28 asciilifeform: even in rsa.

00:45:40 *: asciilifeform has searched for such a girder for quite some time.

00:45:48 asciilifeform: the closest thing we have is the vernam pad.

00:46:00 mircea_popescu: that's actually weaker than rsa in practice.

00:46:06 asciilifeform: (otp, or however it is called in each of our kindergarten textbooks.)

00:46:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: practice, fortunately, is not hard to fix.

00:46:44 asciilifeform: use a bit once, then blow the antifuse it lived in.

00:46:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do not ask me "how". this question is pointedly forbidden in this context.

00:46:46 asciilifeform: problem solved.

00:47:20 asciilifeform: call it, if you like, 'read-once' ram.

00:47:26 phf: should start mailing each other cloned harddrives with random bits on them

00:47:39 asciilifeform: unless operator is a moron, and uses it other than as prescribed, device is a true otp.

00:47:44 asciilifeform: phf: mailing, wtf

00:47:49 asciilifeform: why not mail straight to hitler.

00:48:14 asciilifeform: to complete this story, i will add a diode on each antifuse and a collective rail to blow'em all

00:48:23 asciilifeform: plugged into the 'grenade pin' of course.

00:48:49 asciilifeform: !s antifuse

00:48:49 assbot: 26 results for 'antifuse' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=antifuse

00:49:21 phf: conversation really an excuse for asciilifeform to build a subversive analogue circuit

00:49:22 mircea_popescu: forget all that already.

00:52:12 asciilifeform: otp has precisely three weaknesses even in principle: generation of key (solved by civilized rng); reuse of key (solved by erasing each bit immediately after it is used in a xor); capture of key by enemy (in common with any other cipher! and solved with grenade pin)

00:52:28 asciilifeform: that it is not aesthetically pleasing is not a weakness.

00:52:40 punkman: and distribution of key?

00:52:58 phf: (that's the last point in asciilifeform's list)

00:53:21 asciilifeform: not a weakness. generated by two units connected together in sealed, grounded copper container.

00:53:24 asciilifeform: then separated.

00:54:07 mircea_popescu: pfff.

00:54:57 mircea_popescu: look, im not going to give back the major advantage of asym crypto keys just because nsa sponsored implementation and useful rms-ian idiots made a mess of things.

00:55:02 asciilifeform: this is the 'infinitely rigid girder.' in practice, all girders meaningfully differing from this one have provably finite rigidity.

00:55:06 mircea_popescu: i might as well go back to woodstove heating.

00:55:18 asciilifeform: nobody said 'go back to latrine', aha.

00:55:31 asciilifeform: but it is worth understanding what the cost of 'infinitely rigid girder' is.

00:55:32 mircea_popescu: measurable my foot.

00:55:35 mircea_popescu: measure rsa rigidity.

00:55:46 asciilifeform: could, if could prove np-hard.

00:55:50 mircea_popescu: myeah

00:56:07 asciilifeform: (and would be picking up fields medal or whatever remaining civilized equivalent is)

00:56:09 mircea_popescu: course you said provable. i'll take that to. prove.,

00:56:22 mircea_popescu: no you wouldn't.

00:56:35 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is of course right. snowdenball's chance in hell

00:56:36 mircea_popescu: "it was already announced by some researches without a name in a paper without a back copy"

00:56:42 asciilifeform: aha, this.

00:57:10 mircea_popescu: meanwhile on another front, http://36.media.tumblr.com/cf0be6b45983b05c2ff5e4529958595f/tumblr_ncsy3gJdZY1u0tf07o1_500.jpg

00:57:11 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1NAWKVl )

00:58:00 asciilifeform: spiffy bunker

01:02:19 asciilifeform: to round off the thread, imho the 'holy grail' of asymmetric crypto is to demonstrate ~provably measurable strength~ - that is, prove np-completeness of inverting the transform.

01:02:44 asciilifeform: while also proving that none of the 'practical' aspects of employing the transform, leak key.

01:02:49 mircea_popescu: no.

01:02:52 asciilifeform: (most academitards neglect the second part!)

01:03:01 mircea_popescu: the holy grail is this situation where nothing's demonstrated at all.

01:03:13 asciilifeform: ??

01:03:15 asciilifeform: how;s that work

01:03:41 mircea_popescu: the field of unknown unknowns always favours the people against the state.

01:03:56 asciilifeform: does mircea_popescu remember what means 'np-complete' ?

01:04:00 mircea_popescu: yea/

01:04:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8755 @ 0.00070779 = 6.1967 BTC [+]

01:04:21 mircea_popescu: if anyone had the proof, i'd ask them to not publish it, for that matter.

01:04:25 asciilifeform: l0l!

01:04:28 mircea_popescu: yes.

01:04:39 *: asciilifeform 's throat is not big enough for this pill

01:05:08 asciilifeform: hitler rediscovers the proof. then what

01:05:08 mircea_popescu: it is ACTUALLY preferable for teh republic that whether rsa is or is not np-complete is not known.

01:05:18 mircea_popescu: then nothing.

01:05:33 mircea_popescu: hitler had reports re the fucking wtc bombings on his own desk.

01:05:34 asciilifeform: how does this beat 'proven np-complete and the lowliest amoebic scum knows' ?

01:05:54 mircea_popescu: how does "not clear what bitcoin is" beat "bitcoin is IT" ?

01:06:24 mircea_popescu: i lived my entire life cloaked in a shadow of "nobody saw him coming". i like it.

01:06:28 asciilifeform: is the idea that enemy wastes resources on cryptoanalytic derp vs setting up coke machine dungeon ?

01:06:43 mircea_popescu: not even.

01:07:49 asciilifeform: see, i could even agree re: ~provably unknowable~ (i.e. godelian) unknowns. if these could be had. but 'unknown uknowns' inescapably shed the first 'unknown'

01:08:19 asciilifeform: i would like an asymmetric transform whose complexity were provably unknowable. that would be spiffy.

01:08:28 mircea_popescu: heh. no they don't.

01:08:34 mircea_popescu: what, you think strella is a directional weapon ?

01:09:34 asciilifeform: can't rule out that even 20 yrs ago hitler knew that factoring is np-complete.

01:09:45 asciilifeform: based on available evidence.

01:10:00 mircea_popescu: the less you can rule out, the easier it gets for me.

01:10:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24945 @ 0.0007078 = 17.6561 BTC [+] {2}

01:10:51 mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxsrj48uuz1r4hwowo1_1280.jpg

01:10:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1PqZQJS )

01:10:57 asciilifeform: how does it help anybody (other than hitler), including mircea_popescu, when hitler knows for certain, but everybody else is left to mathematicize fruitlessly (or, worse, work on faith)

01:11:13 mircea_popescu: your notion that hitler's ahead of the curve is spurious.

01:11:24 asciilifeform: why?

01:11:30 mircea_popescu: never, inb the entire history of reichs, was this the case. not once.

01:11:36 asciilifeform: recall who had rsa transform in 1976 ?

01:12:03 asciilifeform: or what, was disinfo ?

01:12:17 mircea_popescu: who ?

01:12:43 *: asciilifeform did not watch mr cocks discover it, so cannot say that it is a fact

01:12:50 asciilifeform: clifford cocks.

01:12:51 mircea_popescu: define "had".

01:13:06 mircea_popescu: that dumbfuck rice "had" the airplane thing, too.

01:13:48 asciilifeform: no one 'had' in the modern sense until the cheap micro, sure.

01:14:27 mircea_popescu: pfff.

01:14:29 asciilifeform: but for cryptoanalyst, it is actually not useless to 'have' a paper-and-pen unimplementable algo

01:14:31 mircea_popescu: no. that wasn't their problem.

01:14:42 asciilifeform: can begin to think of attack, without ever actually modularly exponentiating anything

01:14:48 mircea_popescu: pfff #2.

01:15:12 asciilifeform: ?#1, ?#2 ?

01:15:31 mircea_popescu: hm ?

01:15:46 asciilifeform: what am i missing

01:16:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 209273 @ 0.00066783 = 139.7588 BTC [-] {8}

01:16:24 asciilifeform: either the legend of mr cocks is disinfo (i cannot rule this out at all) or usg had rsa before rivest, shamir, adelman.

01:16:31 mircea_popescu: i dunno dood. but once i figure it out i'll make the computer do what you mean.

01:16:44 asciilifeform: l0l

01:16:52 mircea_popescu: it "had" it. suppose there's madonna burried in your back yard

01:16:55 mircea_popescu: do you "Have" her ?

01:17:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75627 @ 0.00065566 = 49.5856 BTC [-] {5}

01:17:39 asciilifeform: so no 'have' until firing on the battlefield ?

01:18:02 mircea_popescu: no. not have until have.

01:18:26 mircea_popescu: you "have" a horse. your dad bought youy it, except you may not ride it. what "have" ?

01:18:33 mircea_popescu: only some may have. government's not on the list.

01:18:41 asciilifeform: what would a counterexample to hypothesis http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1247994 look like ?

01:18:41 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 01:11:30; mircea_popescu: never, inb the entire history of reichs, was this the case. not once.

01:19:00 phf: so for the curious it doesn't look like 1.4.19 uses the two-byte hash value anyway. it reads it from disk, it populates it during sign and it can write it to disk, but no actual logic done using it

01:19:10 phf: *anywhere rather

01:19:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something like "fructidor"

01:19:45 phf: (grep for digest_start)

01:20:24 mircea_popescu: phf yeah it's not actually as bad as it seemed on the basis of the snippet. still crud.

01:20:29 asciilifeform: phf: am i catastrophically missing something, (i didn't sleep much), or is this an even greater clusterfuck than if the 16bit were used ?!!

01:20:37 mircea_popescu: "let's do things to things for reasonds"

01:20:45 asciilifeform: it would mean that an existential signature forgery is trivial

01:21:24 *: asciilifeform prepares vivisection table

01:23:06 phf: asciilifeform: i'm failing to see the clusterfuck part

01:23:33 phf: i'm mostly curious if my guess about the purpose of the field was correct, but no insight from gpg

01:24:12 phf: logic looks like "read a bunch of things", "hash data", "put relevant bits into an in memory copy of the header", "hash in memory copy", "compare"

01:24:43 asciilifeform: it isn't 'compare' though

01:25:00 phf: asciilifeform: ah, you caught my hand wave :>

01:25:32 asciilifeform: 'well, one could devise methods for signing long messages that don't involve hashing, such as splitting up the message into small segments, tie each segment together with an identifier and a segment sequence number, and sign each individually. However, hashing works so much easier that no one ever considers an alternative.' << quoted verbatim from shit-overflow

01:25:34 asciilifeform: for the record.

01:25:38 asciilifeform: because lulzy.

01:25:47 mircea_popescu: wtf is that

01:26:01 mircea_popescu: since when hash input size is a concern

01:26:32 asciilifeform: in the rfc?

01:26:39 asciilifeform: to know how many bytes to read ?

01:26:50 mircea_popescu: no in the quote.,

01:27:50 asciilifeform: he says 'long messages' on account of the impossibility of signing an integer longer than the public modulus

01:27:55 asciilifeform: using naked rsa.

01:28:16 asciilifeform: hence how hash came to be used in asymmetric signing

01:28:25 asciilifeform: and someone asked, 'but do we ~have~ to rely on hash'

01:28:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20400 @ 0.00070727 = 14.4283 BTC [+]

01:28:51 asciilifeform: and quoted interlocutor answered, 'no but stfu'

01:30:18 asciilifeform: (but, how many folks would accept signatures that are 2x the length of the payload !)

01:30:18 mircea_popescu: aok

01:30:55 mircea_popescu: actually. is there a 4096 bit hash function of any merit ?

01:31:17 asciilifeform: not as such.

01:31:22 mircea_popescu: make the damned thing match throughout. bapg = 4096 rsa, 4096 hash, etc.

01:31:53 asciilifeform: gotta leave some room for 'pad'

01:31:59 mircea_popescu: why ?

01:32:01 asciilifeform: (that is, permutation of the item to be signed)

01:32:03 mircea_popescu: hash is also the pad

01:32:14 asciilifeform: 'pad' is a bit of a misnomer in the parlance

01:32:40 asciilifeform: !s rsa padding

01:32:40 assbot: 1 results for 'rsa padding' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=rsa+padding

01:34:01 mircea_popescu: no. rsa encryption = a succession of individually encrypted blocks.

01:34:15 asciilifeform: easily.

01:34:20 mircea_popescu: so it's not actually a concern

01:34:50 mircea_popescu: i wasn't at any point contemplating "rsa encryption = rsa run once over the message herp"

01:35:43 mircea_popescu: (and i maintain that in all context hybrid encryption is retarde dwithout exception. either fuck or get off the woman.)

01:36:12 asciilifeform: the purpose of 'padding' is to a) never have transform of known input deterministically give same output b) prevent arbitrarily flipped bits of ciphertext from yielding a valid (attempt to eat) message

01:36:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2100 @ 0.00070787 = 1.4865 BTC [+]

01:37:06 mircea_popescu: yes. but none of these actually requires a hybrid scheme

01:37:15 asciilifeform: 'course not.

01:37:44 asciilifeform: just pointing out that you can't stuff n bits of payload into signature (or encipherment) with modulus length n.

01:38:01 asciilifeform: in practice, on account of a+b - fewer.

01:38:15 asciilifeform: (depending on what method of 'padding' - fucking hate this name! - is used)

01:38:33 mircea_popescu: and if youy for some incomprehensible reason MUST use a hybrid scheme, use the following : 1. generate random 4096 hash ; 2. cut your message up into N chunks of size up to 2048 ; 3. xor the chunks with 1; encrypt each chunk via rsa

01:38:45 asciilifeform: btw i am still trying to figure out why the existing 'padding' algos are so asininely complex

01:38:58 asciilifeform: then again, i'm not winning any prizes for knowing the answer to this.

01:39:05 mircea_popescu: quite.

01:40:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35050 @ 0.00070835 = 24.8277 BTC [+] {2}

01:40:54 *: asciilifeform has been living with all of this, in today's thread, and more, while working on the inevitable ada bignumtron and rsatron.

01:41:36 asciilifeform: for use in a certain little device, yes.

01:42:26 asciilifeform: but does ~everything~ have to break into dust in my hands.

01:42:32 asciilifeform: srsly, fucking 'diff'.

01:42:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12132 @ 0.0007095 = 8.6077 BTC [+] {2}

01:43:28 mircea_popescu: ;;google "pentru ca esti o vita spastica si te uraste soarta"

01:43:29 gribble: No matches found.

01:43:35 mircea_popescu: pfff

01:43:52 asciilifeform: approximately.

01:44:14 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUhBH13qMM4

01:44:15 assbot: RObotzi.S02.Ep22.Pornache - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1MDMR8r )

01:47:04 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 if you regenerate the 'orchestra' patches with new vdiff, i will sign'em. otherwise might have to wait a while

01:47:04 gribble: The operation succeeded.

01:47:24 asciilifeform: or hanbot, or mircea_popescu, et al

01:47:34 asciilifeform: at this point anybody can turn the handle

01:48:01 phf: (so it's not compare. they run a digest on payload while reading (or separately if detached), then they run digest on own reconstruction of header, then they finalize the digest and do sig verification of provided signature against the digest that they calculated)

01:48:43 asciilifeform: aha

01:49:16 mircea_popescu: it could be more complicated.

01:49:38 phf: incidentally after bitcoind gnupg source is pleasure to read

01:49:53 asciilifeform: phf: naturally, no cppism

01:49:59 mircea_popescu: or graffiti in foreign languages

01:50:05 asciilifeform: though i would disagree re: 'pleasure'

01:50:09 asciilifeform: just a duller pain

01:50:42 asciilifeform: reading c is more like being beaten with telephone books, vs cpp's bicycle chains

01:51:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18800 @ 0.00070727 = 13.2967 BTC [-]

01:52:02 phf: one can buy "PGP Source Code and Internals." from amazon for $289

01:52:26 asciilifeform: phf: zimmerman ?

01:52:35 asciilifeform: realize that this has nothing at all to do with modern gpg...

01:52:39 phf: yes, trying to see what he was doing with signatures there

01:52:57 phf: oh? pre-standard?

01:53:05 asciilifeform: this item was published by mit press to get around clinton's export laws

01:53:12 phf: aah

01:53:14 asciilifeform: and famously subject of a court proceeding

01:53:20 phf: also '95 vs '98

01:54:04 asciilifeform: the book came with instructions re: how to ocr the thing back, and build!

01:54:10 asciilifeform: i thought this was well-known.

01:54:46 asciilifeform: http://www.ka9q.net/export/zimm.html << on the subject.

01:54:47 assbot: Zimmermann declaration ... ( http://bit.ly/1PESq6m )

01:55:20 asciilifeform: http://www.openresource.com/news/P/PGPSCI.shtml << notice how mit's site no longer contains it.

01:55:22 assbot: PGP Source Code ... ... ( http://bit.ly/1PEStiy )

01:55:37 phf: of course

01:56:26 phf: surprisingly hard to get a copy

01:57:01 asciilifeform: it is not a secret, i think, that i am working on a somewhat similar book.

01:57:09 asciilifeform: two, in fact.

01:57:40 phf: oh? i missed that, i think that's before i started to read closely

01:57:56 *: asciilifeform off for a spell, to play with pet.

01:58:12 phf: i actually forgot that you were working on gnupg source for cardano

01:58:55 phf: hah http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/5964408/

02:14:44 thestringpuller: dunno if asciilifeform is talking about human female, or some random puppy he has.

02:32:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42108 @ 0.00069951 = 29.455 BTC [-] {3}

02:45:57 *: asciilifeform only has 1 pet

02:56:15 mod6: asciilifeform: ... if you regenerate the 'orchestra' patches with new vdiff, i will sign'em. otherwise might have to wait a while << hey, no problem. I'll start in on this sometime tomorrow probably.

02:59:35 asciilifeform: mod6: neat

03:00:17 mod6: thanks for all your work on V, ascii

03:00:29 asciilifeform: 'spreading works, eating - not yet'

03:00:39 mod6: and yah, signing on 16 bits (2 bytes) of hashs is retarded

03:01:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62400 @ 0.00065325 = 40.7628 BTC [-]

03:01:39 asciilifeform: mod6: see thread

03:01:51 asciilifeform: (modern gpg does not sign only the 16)

03:02:13 mod6: yah, gotta re-read here.

03:12:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54492 @ 0.0006754 = 36.8039 BTC [+]

03:42:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45641 @ 0.00067461 = 30.7899 BTC [-]

03:56:54 phf: so to continue this archaeological dig, GPG 2.6 clarifies the usage of 2 octets. reads the header, reads the rsa ciphertext, decrypts rsa. rsa contains a digest of some fields from header and the body of message. so first thing he does next is check the first 2-octets of digest againts the 2-octets in header. if the two don't match program bails with "Error: RSA-decrypted block is corrupted. This may be caused either by corrupted data or by usin

03:56:54 phf: g the wrong RSA key." message format spec explains "First 2 bytes of the Message Digest inside the RSA-encrypted integer, to help us figure out if we used the right RSA key to check the signature."

03:58:33 phf: for the curious ftp://ftp.pgpi.org/pub/pgp/2.x/doc/pgformat.txt, http://www.spinnaker.com/crypt/pgp/pgp26ui/pgp26uis.zip (src/crypto.c:1289)

03:58:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1JbkSbx )

04:14:12 *: mircea_popescu is tempted to deed a list of key,values of names of various people and start referring to people as "Primitive Man AFMrikO2o3Ka2pcpZ" instead of "Obama" or "Jean Jacques Rousseau" or whatever.

04:14:21 mircea_popescu: because it's where it's headed anyway, and why the fuck wait.

04:14:37 asciilifeform: l0l!

04:14:45 asciilifeform: straight from pelevin's 'orcs'

04:14:56 mircea_popescu: it is what it is.

04:15:00 asciilifeform: (were issued serial #s, tatooed on)

04:15:21 asciilifeform: orcs can grunt to one another whatever names they like, but only men get unique name

04:15:41 asciilifeform: orcs only need to be distinguishable from one another quickly & reliably.

04:16:27 mircea_popescu: name's a courtesy anyway.

04:39:15 *: asciilifeform learned, perhaps to his grief, on account of phf (shame on you!) that 'ozon' now takes shitpal. now bought a container of fresh b00kz, aha.

04:40:03 *: asciilifeform will soon learn what, if anything, ru academiderpers did re: crypto in '90s, among other things.

04:46:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what i don't grasp is why you're feeling so generous - giving orcs unique names.

04:46:35 asciilifeform: what next, serialize the ants in the anthill ?

04:47:10 asciilifeform: let the rousseaus bite one another's ears off, fighting over who is rousseau.

04:47:39 asciilifeform: (also serial #s tend to work poorly unless reliably tattooed on.)

04:49:37 asciilifeform: see also the 'rating folks not in wot?' and 'branding a snake' thread

04:49:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41389 @ 0.00064734 = 26.7928 BTC [-] {5}

05:02:22 mircea_popescu: cuz i might want to be able to distinguish orwell from orlov

05:02:30 mircea_popescu: not that experience to date indicates this as likely.

05:04:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00064515 = 6.4515 BTC [-]

05:14:41 mircea_popescu: "The reappearance of HELEN'S BABIES, in its day one of the most popular books in the world?within the British Empire alone it was pirated by twenty different publishing firms, the author receiving a total profit of ?40 from a sale of some hundreds of thousands or millions of copies?will ring a bell in any literate person over thirty-five."

05:14:45 mircea_popescu: da fuck is this, never heard of it.

05:14:56 mircea_popescu: probably some inane brit-pulp a la dickens.

05:21:48 mircea_popescu: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4281/4281-h/4281-h.htm turns out it's from the us, an early attempt at mommy blogging.

05:21:49 assbot: Error 403 ... ( http://bit.ly/1KbIu4b )

05:28:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20600 @ 0.00065643 = 13.5225 BTC [+]

05:29:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19500 @ 0.00068335 = 13.3253 BTC [+]

05:33:41 mircea_popescu: you know, they speak casually of how the bitches they know're gonna introduce the new ones. except... all this is a work of feverish imagination.

05:33:43 mircea_popescu: bah.

05:40:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45600 @ 0.00068754 = 31.3518 BTC [+] {2}

05:42:27 mircea_popescu: an' in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llyhg6sEe01qht4jso1_1280.jpg

05:42:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UZgHXQ )

05:58:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9846 @ 0.00066909 = 6.5879 BTC [-]

06:03:05 mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1157679.0 << and, of course, credit given where credit is due.

06:03:07 assbot: [Guide] Surviving the fork, or How to double your bitcoins (or save fiat) ... ( http://bit.ly/1UZiOLr )

06:13:45 punkman: https://github.com/shadowsocks/shadowsocks-iOS/issues/124#issuecomment-133630294

06:13:47 assbot: Adopting iOS 9 network extension points · Issue #124 · shadowsocks/shadowsocks-iOS · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1UZjYGE )

06:18:00 mircea_popescu: is that trolling ?

06:18:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43300 @ 0.00066816 = 28.9313 BTC [-]

06:21:01 mircea_popescu: imo related, http://38.media.tumblr.com/cfb0c0419182f990eb81a2ed7124c783/tumblr_nq5a2srt8O1sp2hafo1_400.gif

06:21:02 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ME6Gwu )

06:24:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86108 @ 0.00064807 = 55.804 BTC [-] {3}

06:43:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27850 @ 0.00067939 = 18.921 BTC [+] {2}

06:48:58 mircea_popescu: "A totalitarian society which succeeded in perpetuating itself would probably set up a schizophrenic system of thought, in which the laws of common sense held good in everyday life and in certain exact sciences, but could be disregarded by the politician, the historian, and the sociologist."

07:11:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31600 @ 0.00065793 = 20.7906 BTC [-]

07:35:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41200 @ 0.00067953 = 27.9966 BTC [+]

07:57:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21013 @ 0.000658 = 13.8266 BTC [-]

08:09:57 punkman: mircea_popescu: is that trolling ? << chinese problems

08:10:39 punkman: shadowsocks makes your tunnels look like traffic that's not blocked

08:12:16 shinohai: Don't be like Weird Satanist Guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopeFgwApCM&feature=youtu.be

08:12:17 assbot: Weird Satanist Guy - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1JAC6ol )

08:15:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82640 @ 0.00066914 = 55.2977 BTC [+] {2}

08:16:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43594 @ 0.000691 = 30.1235 BTC [+]

08:18:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52628 @ 0.00069123 = 36.3781 BTC [+] {2}

08:19:50 punkman: http://www.china.org.cn/china/2015-08/22/content_36385958.htm

08:19:52 assbot: Fisherman nets a spy device in S China Sea- China.org.cn ... ( http://bit.ly/1PrtuP3 )

08:23:47 shinohai: I hope that somewhere in the AM data, it is revealed Josh Duggar snorted coke off of a tranny's cock.

08:23:53 punkman: lulz http://burners.me/2014/08/17/prepare-for-the-playa-police/

08:23:54 assbot: Prepare for the Playa Police [Update] | Burners.Me: Me, Burners and The Man ... ( http://bit.ly/1PrtJtw )

08:38:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62700 @ 0.00069586 = 43.6304 BTC [+] {2}

08:40:35 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell schmidty fix your connection.

08:40:35 gribble: The operation succeeded.

08:47:27 punkman: http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/reuters/three-wounded-in-shooting-on-amsterdam-to-paris-train/41617438

08:47:28 assbot: U.S. soldier wounded helping to overpower gunman on train in France - SWI swissinfo.ch ... ( http://bit.ly/1Eb9Ruc )

08:48:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21000 @ 0.00070115 = 14.7242 BTC [+]

08:49:42 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

08:49:43 assbot: Dont Talk to Police - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Eb9W1b )

08:55:05 punkman: http://www.ibtimes.com/sprout-pharmaceuticals-ceo-talks-female-viagra-controversy-additional-alcohol-studies-2061110

08:55:07 assbot: Sprout Pharmaceuticals CEO Talks 'Female Viagra' Controversy, Additional Alcohol Studies, Addyi's U.S. Roll-Out And Global Ambitions ... ( http://bit.ly/1Eba5By )

09:01:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16605 @ 0.00070554 = 11.7155 BTC [+] {2}

09:11:30 mircea_popescu: sprout pharmaceuticals is a new altcoin or what.

09:19:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 66099 @ 0.00002287 = 1.5117 BTC [-] {11}

09:27:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21950 @ 0.00070064 = 15.379 BTC [-] {2}

09:29:28 shinohai: * I want a blockchain!* *Us too!*

09:35:23 punkman: heh http://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-who-found-evidence-for-gluten-sensitivity-have-now-shown-it-doesn-t-exist

09:35:25 assbot: Scientists who found gluten sensitivity evidence have now shown it doesn't exist - ScienceAlert ... ( http://bit.ly/1TZjgvZ )

09:38:41 mircea_popescu: doh.

09:39:12 mircea_popescu: all us tinfoil hats with our crazy notions about how shit that doesn't exist doesn't exist.

09:39:32 mircea_popescu: meanwhile how did that quote go, i really liked that thing, with social biddings and shit

09:40:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=21-08-2015#1247708

09:40:40 assbot: Logged on 21-08-2015 23:21:00; mircea_popescu: "Welcome, kiddo, to how the real world works. You go ahead and place your crazy protest bids way off in the bottom of the sociological order book and scream that someday, SOMEDAY, the market will come down to meet you, and you will be vindicated.

09:40:56 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-08-2015#1247709

09:40:56 assbot: Logged on 21-08-2015 23:21:00; mircea_popescu: The rest of us who actually make shit happen in the front lines of consensus back on planet earth will continue to be unaffected by your efforts apart from their modest value as chuckle fuel over beers and sushi."

09:41:08 mircea_popescu: very happen much front lines actual earth &c.

09:42:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00069891 = 13.9782 BTC [-]

09:45:15 fluffypony: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMy8UicVAAAZOjX.jpg:large

09:45:16 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1TZk0Bp )

09:45:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48600 @ 0.00069891 = 33.967 BTC [-]

09:45:45 punkman: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/ashley-madison-hackers-speak-out-nobody-was-watching

09:45:46 assbot: Ashley Madison Hackers Speak Out: 'Nobody Was Watching' | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1TZk43T )

09:46:15 punkman: "1/3 of pictures are dick pictures and we won't dump."

09:47:17 *: mircea_popescu is not reading a vice regurgitation of anything. got the actual link ?

09:47:33 punkman: it's original

09:48:01 mircea_popescu: then their mother can read it & care.

09:48:09 mircea_popescu: if it's "original" to vice it's a lie by vice.

09:48:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15450 @ 0.00067398 = 10.413 BTC [-]

09:49:00 punkman: "Motherboard was given a contact email address for The Impact Team by an intermediary. After reaching out, the hackers replied with a message signed with the same PGP key posted with the Ashley Madison dumps. " << of course they couldn't provide the signed replies

09:49:19 mircea_popescu: either they stole someone's shit, in which case i want the original ; or else they made it up, in which case i dun want to hear it.

09:55:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35500 @ 0.00067023 = 23.7932 BTC [-]

09:56:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34574 @ 0.00070623 = 24.4172 BTC [+] {3}

09:59:08 mircea_popescu: but since we're doing lulz, check out what the dragnet drug up https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/17zq8j/because_most_people_are_idiots_in_spite_of_never/c8aabj7

09:59:09 assbot: ThePiachu comments on Because most people are idiots, in spite of never manning up and admitting to it ... ( http://bit.ly/1TZkSpq )

10:00:55 shinohai: ^ LOLZ

10:04:11 cazalla: anyone else read his name as thepikachu?

10:04:33 mircea_popescu: that's the subreddit mod neh ?

10:04:50 cazalla: i believe so

10:05:04 cazalla: next to theymos anyway

10:07:22 shinohai: yes he is mod of r/cryptocurrency too?

10:07:54 shinohai: phd or something important hur durr

10:08:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9149 @ 0.00067023 = 6.1319 BTC [-]

10:11:58 mircea_popescu: anyway, turns out fraudsters's linked from tons of various reddits in all sorts of topics, from recovering tlp old posts he apparently deleted to whatever random other thing.

10:11:58 mircea_popescu: it

10:12:22 mircea_popescu: s just they don't amount to much traffic wise, even when piled together, which is how i've never noticed before.

10:28:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14189 @ 0.00070831 = 10.0502 BTC [+] {2}

10:30:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42650 @ 0.00071281 = 30.4013 BTC [+] {3}

10:44:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56982 @ 0.00066857 = 38.0965 BTC [-] {2}

10:46:15 shinohai: https://cex.io/#/modal/sign-in

10:46:16 assbot: Bitcoin Exchange, Trading BTC USD, BTC EUR - CEX.IO ... ( http://bit.ly/1NsfNSy )

10:46:34 shinohai: wrong window

11:23:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29633 @ 0.00065761 = 19.487 BTC [-] {2}

11:34:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2767 @ 0.00065406 = 1.8098 BTC [-]

11:39:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21300 @ 0.00065406 = 13.9315 BTC [-]

12:33:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44000 @ 0.00065713 = 28.9137 BTC [+] {3}

12:41:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12735 @ 0.0006774 = 8.6267 BTC [+]

12:56:08 punkman: https://news.artnet.com/market/how-do-experts-arrive-at-an-opinion-about-artwork-authenticity-323652

12:56:12 assbot: Art Law on Authenticating Works by Old Masters--artnet News ... ( http://bit.ly/1Jns5Vk )

13:02:31 punkman: http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/how-a-chinese-librarian-made-6-million-in-forged-art-over-two-years

13:02:32 assbot: How a Chinese librarian made $6 million in forged art over two years | National Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1MEGQZh )

13:05:58 punkman: "before he resigned from the library he realized that his trick had occurred to someone else. Several of the paintings he made had been replaced, his copies stolen. So the Academy was exhibiting fakes of fakes and someone was selling, or trying to sell, art by Xiao."

13:10:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14116 @ 0.00071014 = 10.0243 BTC [+] {2}

13:11:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25066 @ 0.0007159 = 17.9447 BTC [+] {2}

13:42:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21774 @ 0.00070074 = 15.2579 BTC [-]

13:46:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9629 @ 0.00070074 = 6.7474 BTC [-]

14:01:30 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248244 << ahahaha this is ~very~ easy. does the thing contain any material signed with the original leak's pgp key? no? then straight to /dev/null !!

14:01:30 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 09:49:19; mircea_popescu: either they stole someone's shit, in which case i want the original ; or else they made it up, in which case i dun want to hear it.

14:01:52 asciilifeform: if the folks allegedly interviewed want to me to read this shit, they can sign it.

14:03:02 asciilifeform: (mircea_popescu's bag of tricks is ultra-handy for items like this. specifically, in re: the ancient art of not wasting time with spurious crud)

14:05:02 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248273 << in my eyes, a ~skilled~ art forger is a hero second only to a hypothetical fella who puts an actual bullet through a bilderberger. why, exactly, should i have any sympathy for the folks hitching a ride in the only 100% effective inflation shelter known, at the expense of literally everybody else ?

14:05:02 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 13:02:31; punkman: http://news.nationalpost.com/arts/how-a-chinese-librarian-made-6-million-in-forged-art-over-two-years

14:05:17 asciilifeform: there is no buterin's waterfall for rembrandts and vermeers

14:06:27 asciilifeform: no usg confiscates them, to keep the price from rocketing to alpha centauri. the 'art market' not only destroyed fine art as a going concern, but is one of the giant turtles on which the elephants stand

14:06:49 asciilifeform: propping up the 'world order' or however one calls it.

14:07:23 kakobrekla: !s incorporation certificate

14:07:24 assbot: 0 results for 'incorporation certificate' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=incorporation+certificate

14:07:24 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248271 << compare this crock of shit to the algo for authenticating a bitcoin !

14:07:24 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 12:56:08; punkman: https://news.artnet.com/market/how-do-experts-arrive-at-an-opinion-about-artwork-authenticity-323652

14:10:01 asciilifeform: (ask how they destroyed fine art? not by 'hiding it in vaults', no. by elevating steaming piles of shit like jackson pollack's splashes, on account of them being supposedly 'authenticable' in his bucket swirling patterns, to 'fine art')

14:22:28 mats: asciilifeform has seen the movie 'American Hustle'?

14:22:37 asciilifeform: nope

14:22:48 mats: is about art forgery.

14:23:19 mats: http://www.metacritic.com/movie/american-hustle

14:23:20 assbot: American Hustle Reviews - Metacritic ... ( http://bit.ly/1LqGPJz )

14:26:44 fluffypony: it's excellent

14:27:17 fluffypony: very watchable, great casting

14:30:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00069837 = 8.3804 BTC [-]

14:31:53 fluffypony: so 6 hours till North Korea says they'll retaliate

14:32:44 fluffypony: oh wait, I meant 6 hours ago

14:32:48 *: fluffypony can't brain

14:34:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69627 @ 0.00069837 = 48.6254 BTC [-]

14:44:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116000 @ 0.00069837 = 81.0109 BTC [-]

15:00:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 131804 @ 0.00069903 = 92.135 BTC [+] {3}

15:02:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10350 @ 0.00070151 = 7.2606 BTC [+]

15:21:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27000 @ 0.00070504 = 19.0361 BTC [+] {2}

15:24:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19050 @ 0.00069572 = 13.2535 BTC [-] {2}

15:41:10 trinque: asciilifeform: I've produced a genesis.vpatch with your instructions which is only different from yours in terms of timestamps. expected result?

15:41:34 trinque: I recall discussion of removing the timestamps, but didn't find a conclusion there

15:41:42 asciilifeform: damnit

15:41:46 asciilifeform: i posted a new vdiff.sh

15:41:57 *: trinque looks again

15:41:58 asciilifeform: mod6 used it to produce the latest genesis.

15:42:41 trinque: there found it

15:42:43 asciilifeform: diff -uNr $1 $2 | awk 'm = /^(---|\+\+\+)/{s="sha512sum \"" $2 "\" 2>/dev/null " | getline x; if (s) { split(x, a, " "); o = a[1]; } else {o = "false";} print $1 " " $2 " " o} !m { print $0 }'

15:45:35 trinque: result of patch -p1 < genesis.vpatch is a tree which matches the manifest.

15:45:39 trinque: very cool

15:45:56 trinque: diff with your genesis.vpatch is now of course the timestamps

15:46:01 trinque: and nothing else

15:46:03 asciilifeform: the original manifest used sha256

15:46:08 asciilifeform: so won't match in the bitwise sense

15:46:17 trinque: wat

15:46:36 asciilifeform: but if you were to switch the hash in vdiff to 256, then will match.

15:46:58 trinque: http://dpaste.com/00WA116.txt

15:47:00 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1NsCvd8 )

15:47:13 asciilifeform: ah in that sense, no shit, matches

15:47:16 asciilifeform: they're the same files!

15:47:21 trinque: lol, no shit indeed

15:47:26 trinque: I thought this was the exercise

15:47:34 asciilifeform: it is.

15:47:48 trinque: the thing's damned cool

15:47:58 asciilifeform: earlier there were problems with different folks getting different (bitwise) genesis.vpatch - which i traced down to 'locale' retardation in gnudiff

15:48:11 asciilifeform: which left the timestamps. then experimented with abolishing timestamps in diffs entirely. this works

15:48:25 asciilifeform: with caveat that gnupatch will no longer keep you from applying the same patch twice.

15:48:29 trinque: yeah, I made the LC_ALL=C change

15:50:38 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 2500 @ 0.000755 = 1.8875 BTC [+]

15:50:42 asciilifeform: trinque: i did the genesis.vpatch thing solely to simplify 'v' build system, which i was working on; such that there is no longer any shenanigans with tarballs, copying of crud, etc

15:50:51 asciilifeform: everything that anyone is to be signing is a vpatch.

15:50:55 asciilifeform: is the idea.

15:51:32 asciilifeform: this makes it possible to mechanically trace a 'patchchain'

15:51:47 asciilifeform: say, one can ask for 'asciilifeform's longest chain.'

15:52:38 trinque: yep, that seems perfect, and I don't know how it could be simpler.

15:52:52 asciilifeform: i am also considering a knob whereby one can sign a manifest

15:52:55 asciilifeform: this is a 'release'.

15:53:06 *: trinque nods

15:53:24 asciilifeform: 'v' will recursively walk the hashes in the release and apply the necessary vpatches to produce the tree.

15:55:38 asciilifeform: trinque: see that your genesis.vpatch is bitwise-identical to mod6's.

15:55:43 asciilifeform: then sign and post your sig.

15:55:46 trinque: sure will

15:56:39 asciilifeform: jurov's current script, unfortunately makes it necessary to post the payload (genesis) with the sig, in order for the message to come through.

15:57:02 trinque: and indeed it's identical

15:57:10 asciilifeform: but theoretically it is now possible to submit sigs for the same thing, and they will match.

15:58:30 asciilifeform: one potentially warty aspect of 'v' is that let's say ben_vulpes agrees with all of asciilifeform's longest-chain patches but one, somewhere in the middle.

15:58:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27400 @ 0.00071869 = 19.6921 BTC [+] {2}

15:58:54 asciilifeform: the thing he ends up having to do is to create an antipatch for that one, and place it on the head of his longest chain.

15:59:15 asciilifeform: creating the antipatch is likely to require some manual manipulation.

15:59:17 trinque: seems the most honest representation of that

15:59:20 asciilifeform: aha.

15:59:22 asciilifeform: this is my view.

15:59:35 asciilifeform: it avoids polluting the mechanism with special cases.

15:59:38 trinque: otherwise you get the insane operations possible in git

15:59:40 trinque: yep

15:59:54 asciilifeform: i am emphatically ~not~ recreating 'git' or the like.

16:00:52 asciilifeform: aficionados of 'functional programming' will recognize the 'v' data structure as so-called 'immutable'.

16:02:31 asciilifeform: to further work the example, the 'antipatch' is only necessary if ben_vulpes's chain builds on any of asciilifeform's patches which have the unwanted patch as antecedent.

16:02:38 asciilifeform: because if not, it is not necessary.

16:03:07 asciilifeform: if any aspect of the basic theory here is the least bit unclear to any of you, i want to hear about it asap.

16:03:15 trinque: that points out perfectly why "commit" is usually too big a wad of information

16:03:41 asciilifeform: the closest thing we have to a 'commit' here is the act of creating, signing, and distributing a vpatch.

16:04:23 asciilifeform: no vpatch, with the exception of 'genesis', should ever be longer than a few pages of text.

16:05:39 asciilifeform: it is important that everyone who works on therealbitcoin sign 'genesis' and distribute said signature.

16:06:14 asciilifeform: or 'v' will not eat descendant patches from said person.

16:11:42 asciilifeform: and, speaking of which,

16:11:43 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000153.html

16:11:44 assbot: [BTC-dev] V-genesis signed. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Jc4kAg )

16:11:48 asciilifeform: ^ me.

16:16:20 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu ^

16:16:21 gribble: The operation succeeded.

16:18:02 asciilifeform: importantly, these need to be detached (own file) signatures. specifically ~not~ like this: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000150.html

16:18:03 assbot: [BTC-dev] signed genesis.vpatch ... ( http://bit.ly/1J7B7Xg )

16:20:42 trinque: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000154.html

16:20:43 assbot: [BTC-dev] V-genesis signed, with comment ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLeXU1 )

16:22:55 asciilifeform: sig verifies.

16:22:59 asciilifeform: congrats trinque !

16:23:04 trinque: congrats to you sir

16:23:10 *: trinque finds some coffee

16:25:24 asciilifeform: deedbot- http://dpaste.com/2R8J8C5.txt

16:25:25 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLffdn )

16:25:26 deedbot-: accepted: 1

16:26:45 asciilifeform: now the ideal thing would be to hook deedbot straight up to this.

16:26:55 asciilifeform: won't eat patches, no, but will eat sigs.

16:29:28 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> this is a 'release'. << ultra nifty

16:30:22 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'm still not entirely convinced that particular knob is necessary

16:30:36 asciilifeform: a 'release' can simply be a deedbotted manifest.

16:33:49 ben_vulpes: the whole thing, man.

16:33:56 ben_vulpes: sinfully nifty.

16:35:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54700 @ 0.00069408 = 37.9662 BTC [-] {3}

16:54:51 danielpbarron: https://youtu.be/YGRgztz3Q6s?t=34s "What is my purpose?" << here's the kind of cartoon kids are growing up with nowadays, and it's not bad

16:54:52 assbot: Rick and Morty Something Ricked This Way Comes Episode 9 Season 1 - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1V0odBG )

16:57:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57891 @ 0.00071365 = 41.3139 BTC [+] {2}

17:07:52 fluffypony: Rick and Morty is great

17:07:58 fluffypony: also Bojack Horseman

17:09:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50640 @ 0.00071817 = 36.3681 BTC [+] {2}

17:16:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13944 @ 0.00071914 = 10.0277 BTC [+]

17:25:55 mats: Fun fact: early ICBM computers had individually serial numbered resistors.

17:35:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21950 @ 0.00070837 = 15.5487 BTC [-]

18:03:31 ben_vulpes: for those following the macos travails, cp does not have a --parents, instead has a -p

18:03:33 ben_vulpes: thanks steve

18:04:09 asciilifeform: ferfuckssake, is it really necessary to build on toy os ?

18:04:17 asciilifeform: is winblows next ?

18:05:26 asciilifeform: in unrelated nyooz, tr0l0l0l, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1482&cpage=1#comment-17278

18:05:28 assbot: Loper OS » Tungsten Will Melt in Your Mouth! ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ea7oQE )

18:10:06 fluffypony: ben_vulpes: why would that have anything to do with Steve Jobs?

18:13:08 kakobrekla: speaking on toy oses - i had a good build on deb8

18:13:18 fluffypony: it's crazy that *anyone* thinks standard command line tools in OS X have anything to do with Apple

18:14:18 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248408 << my understanding is that individually-measured and selected components are still sop in Machines Which Must Work

18:14:18 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 17:25:55; mats: Fun fact: early ICBM computers had individually serial numbered resistors.

18:15:25 fluffypony: https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=cp&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=4.3BSD+NET%2F2&arch=default&format=html

18:15:27 assbot: cp ... ( http://bit.ly/1h3Zcqw )

18:15:28 asciilifeform: less so today, in digital circuits, than in the old days of analogue amps in everything

18:15:43 fluffypony: oh look, the cp man in 1991 looks the same as it does on OS X today

18:15:47 fluffypony: surprise

18:16:50 asciilifeform: fluffypony: the 'fun' on mac begins when you diverge from traditional bsd utils and try using items like perl, python, or - satan forbid - attempt to work with init scripts or other customary denizens of /etc/

18:18:21 fluffypony: [ ric->~ ]$ perl --version

18:18:22 fluffypony: This is perl 5, version 18, subversion 2 (v5.18.2) built for darwin-thread-multi-2level

18:18:25 fluffypony: [ ric->~ ]$ python --version

18:18:25 fluffypony: Python 2.7.8

18:18:34 fluffypony: seems fairly innocuous, asciilifeform?

18:18:41 fluffypony: but I agree with you on it not using init

18:18:43 asciilifeform: fluffypony: now install a py package, say

18:18:47 mod6: asciilifeform: ok I regenerated all of the rel1 & rel2-pre patches with the new vdiff -- you want to review 'em?

18:18:54 asciilifeform: fluffypony: is the process ~exactly~ the same as on a gentoo box?

18:18:56 asciilifeform: if not, BROKEN

18:19:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24850 @ 0.00071914 = 17.8706 BTC [+]

18:19:15 fluffypony: asciilifeform: pip install <package name>

18:19:21 asciilifeform: mod6: diff with the old set, and see that nothing but timestamps is at variance

18:19:33 asciilifeform: mod6: if so, then safe to sign.

18:19:49 asciilifeform: (new set should have no timestamps.)

18:19:59 asciilifeform: mod6: also might want to try applying the patches, sequentially.

18:20:36 asciilifeform: mod6: they also need to be rebased (paths adjusted) so that they ~all~ apply from the root dir (where the patches live.)

18:20:41 asciilifeform: without descending into 'bitcoin'

18:21:16 asciilifeform: can either do this yourself, or wait several days until i get around to it.

18:21:39 mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: diff with the old set, and see that nothing but timestamps is at variance << can post this here in a bit for your review

18:22:07 mod6: <+asciilifeform> can either do this yourself, or wait several days until i get around to it. << i might get some more time to play around tonight. we'll see

18:22:32 asciilifeform: to be specific, all diff hunks should take the form seen in 'genesis', where '--- a/bitcoin/src/foo', '+++ b/bitcoin/src/foo'

18:22:58 asciilifeform: presently some of them are, e.g., '+++ b/src/foo' and this slipped past my eyes

18:23:03 asciilifeform: and is retarded

18:23:28 mod6: eek! in the signed one?

18:23:32 *: mod6 looks

18:23:35 asciilifeform: in the original 'orchestra'

18:23:38 asciilifeform: but also in all earlier patches

18:23:42 asciilifeform: there is inconsistency

18:23:53 asciilifeform: we resolved it before by doing shell gymnastics with the dir

18:24:01 asciilifeform: this is not acceptable in 'v'

18:24:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98180 @ 0.00070808 = 69.5193 BTC [-] {2}

18:24:11 asciilifeform: (which i am trying to strip of all unnecessary 'intelligence')

18:24:21 mod6: <+asciilifeform> but also in all earlier patches << ah yea yeah, ok gotcha.

18:24:37 asciilifeform: gotta nail this down, once and for all.

18:24:56 mod6: yup gotcha

18:25:12 mod6: that way too im not doing the '-d' gymnastics

18:25:16 mod6: sounds good.

18:25:35 asciilifeform: re: earlier thread: a few hours of thinking led me to another potential boojum in 'v' : cyclic graphs

18:25:55 asciilifeform: i.e. if someone were to submit an antipatch which brings a file hash back to a previously-seen value.

18:26:16 asciilifeform: my present understanding is that the only solution to this is that i intend to negrate anyone who EVER does this.

18:26:21 asciilifeform: and encourage others to do the same.

18:27:27 asciilifeform: i ~really~ don't feel like stuffing a 'tortoise and hare algo' cycle-finder in that thing.

18:27:41 mod6: yeah, well, i agree, if somehow they end up restoring something back to its original sha512 something is wrong. or something needed to be rolled back for some reason.

18:27:43 asciilifeform: it would be easily 50x the complexity of the whole shebang put together.

18:27:56 asciilifeform: mod6: no, understand, such a patch being submitted will wedge the machine.

18:28:00 asciilifeform: (if sig verifies)

18:29:07 asciilifeform: if must undo a change, roll it back with an annotation. anything to get a ~novel~ sha512.

18:29:13 mod6: makes sense. this is a tree. and if we suddenly make the root a leaf, then screwed.

18:29:16 asciilifeform: just like rules of chess, incidentally

18:29:27 asciilifeform: cause a board position to be repeated ? nope

18:30:04 asciilifeform: it occurs to me that we can check for this mechanically

18:30:12 asciilifeform: without tortoise-and-hare algo

18:30:14 asciilifeform: like this:

18:30:35 asciilifeform: 'no +++ sha512 may ever equal a previously-seen-after-+++ sha512.'

18:32:21 asciilifeform: this is still not a 100% solution, because we have ~no means of ordering patches other than hashes~

18:32:27 asciilifeform: recall, there is no notion of time.

18:32:33 mod6: yeah.

18:32:55 asciilifeform: but it is a handy means of mechanically computing whom to negrate.

18:33:15 mod6: "in the beginning there was false..."

18:33:15 asciilifeform: 'if tree-walk wedges on account of your patch, blame yourself'

18:33:19 asciilifeform: aha.

18:36:29 mod6: ok, here is the diffs between your posted patches w/timestamps v. new ones w/o ts: http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel1-test-20150822.patch && http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel2-pre-test-20150822.patch

18:36:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1h41BkQ )

18:36:31 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1h41BkS )

18:37:18 asciilifeform: mod6: now try applying these in the known order.

18:37:38 asciilifeform: mod6: see, for example, if you can bitwise-reconstitute REL1.

18:37:55 mod6: yeah. you know... was just looking at these closer. i think i screwed something up

18:37:59 mod6: the hashes don't match.

18:38:19 asciilifeform: they have to match.

18:38:40 mod6: i did something wrong here.

18:38:47 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform say, you keep sending me these carets, what are they supposed to do ? add to my collection ?

18:38:55 mod6: lemme blow these away

18:39:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not sure what i was thinking there!

18:39:09 asciilifeform: add to a collection thereof, i suppose.

18:39:18 mircea_popescu: i got one from yest, too :)

18:39:28 mircea_popescu: mebbe they made a soup, who knows. ima ask teh girls.

18:39:32 asciilifeform: they go well with tea

18:39:35 asciilifeform: i was about to say.

18:39:35 mircea_popescu: irc, an ADVENTURE!~

18:40:01 mircea_popescu: incidentally, why the fuck is ^ called a caret. a caret is supposed to go below the line.

18:40:10 asciilifeform: it is a CARROT

18:40:13 asciilifeform: not a caret.

18:40:15 mircea_popescu: oh i guess they were using it historicaly for the line above huh

18:42:07 mircea_popescu: that weird feeling when you wake up at 4pm, everyone's gone to do useful stuffs and you have a pile of explanatory notes, aggregated foodstuffs and so forth.

18:42:10 mircea_popescu: i feel like a very old man.

18:42:43 mod6: ok i think i see what I did wrong here... just a minute.

18:44:01 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248274 << you know this is ~extremely~ common. maybe even half the fine art privately owned / displayed at any time is fake.

18:44:01 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 13:02:32; assbot: How a Chinese librarian made $6 million in forged art over two years | National Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1MEGQZh )

18:44:30 asciilifeform: not common enough! if there are still $40mil auctions for'em

18:44:39 mircea_popescu: that has nothin to do.

18:44:54 asciilifeform: let ten quintillion indistinguishable fakeassos bloom.

18:44:55 mircea_popescu: at the mental level where us adults are, $500 mn for soccer trading cards would not be amiss.

18:45:03 asciilifeform: only if they can be provenanced.

18:45:14 mircea_popescu: this is like "only if he can be voted into office"

18:45:24 mircea_popescu: he'll be voted, if that's what keeps millions from raining.

18:45:35 asciilifeform: nah, it doesn't work if someone can walk into a dark closet and emerge with two indistinguishable costly pet rocks.

18:45:42 mircea_popescu: orly.

18:45:44 asciilifeform: double-spend

18:46:00 mircea_popescu: this is like, "it doesn't work if i come back home and there's TWO almost dressed blondies waiting for me"

18:46:02 mircea_popescu: orly!

18:46:33 asciilifeform: if can doublespend, can run arse-mouth system hose, and now you're using 'blondies' as construction material and can't give'em away fast enough

18:46:43 mircea_popescu: ayup.

18:46:47 asciilifeform: before you know it, they're boat ballast

18:46:48 mircea_popescu: ~= africa.

18:48:45 asciilifeform: but, if understand correctly, there is an alternate hypothesis: the costly and elaborate 'authentification' is not to authenticate, but to annoint

18:49:22 asciilifeform: rockefeller's vermeer is genuine and fuckyou because he is rockefeller; the one mr schmuck found in his cellar - will be annointed fake (or no one will even bother) unless it suits a rockefeller to bless it.

18:49:56 asciilifeform: (so he can pick it up for $1000 and magick it into $40m)

18:50:57 mircea_popescu: what part of doublethink you think got cancelled ? the man with two maja desnudas simply is twice as happy.

18:51:09 asciilifeform: i am enthusiastically in favour of elaborate art fraudsters if they can ddos this process.

18:51:16 mircea_popescu: this would be true if there existed a usg agency of authenticity.

18:51:38 asciilifeform: not twice as happy if he can't buy 2x the turkeys

18:51:44 mircea_popescu: speaking of goya, ever seen un coup fumant ?

18:51:49 asciilifeform: can't say i have

18:52:07 mircea_popescu: ancient film with toto. know him ?

18:52:15 asciilifeform: nope

18:52:28 mircea_popescu: italian comic of the war period.

18:53:01 mircea_popescu: anyway, pretty much your idea : a wanna-be rockefeller (except fraudster-y) hires an eccentric copyer to make an intermediate maja

18:53:15 mircea_popescu: (goya has a dressed maja and a nude one, they were goin to make "la maja en chemise")

18:54:17 asciilifeform: pretty sure someone linked to a modern rerun of this concept, earlier.

18:54:26 asciilifeform: (and i bet there are 25 films like this)

18:54:32 mircea_popescu: quite exactly.

18:54:42 mircea_popescu: fine art is either fine for its fine-ness or then not even art at all.

18:55:04 mircea_popescu: much like a good performance of a march does not get anulled through having been "not the original" and nobody sticks around to compare the brass instruments used

18:55:19 mircea_popescu: ("oh this march is from 1722 and then they put antimony in the brass. this march was a fake!)

18:55:19 asciilifeform: surely

18:55:43 asciilifeform: except that we have a handful of wealthy and demented folk who turned the whole shebang into a kind of primitive altcoin

18:55:57 mircea_popescu: which is how 99% of these "fake fine art" arguments are settled - no eggyolk in the pigment or shit

18:56:01 asciilifeform: aha

18:56:05 asciilifeform: well-known, i thought.

18:56:07 mircea_popescu: as fucking if.

18:56:17 asciilifeform: (hence the linked article where chinese fella used vintage paper, ink)

18:56:26 mircea_popescu: also, the thing is, it's perfectly legal to order and own, and trade etc COPIES

18:56:32 mircea_popescu: not like the things are under copyright anymore.

18:56:39 mircea_popescu: the only illegal part is fraud, obviously.

18:56:49 mircea_popescu: so it's kinda a forgone conclusion, art authenticity.

18:57:26 asciilifeform: but the pretence is maintained so rockefeller's stash can be inflationproof. and folks who try to fuck with the pretence, often Have Problems.

18:57:34 *: mircea_popescu would not feel particularly better for owning the "actual" copy of a painting he likes rather than a very good one. actually i'd feel like a total fool.

18:57:51 mircea_popescu: besides, the modern copy can be fix. i much prefer my own rewrites of classical poems to the originals anwyay.

18:58:07 mircea_popescu: and the historical master's taste in women shows they never met any for crying out loud.

18:58:07 asciilifeform: this is because mircea_popescu is still thinking of these items as artwork, to look at

18:58:15 mircea_popescu: i don't remember any classical nude i like the face of.

18:58:15 asciilifeform: lizards just keep'em in bottles of argon

18:59:30 mircea_popescu: but anyway, this suggests a fine exercise for the esteemed lordship and beyond. not everything in this life is code, and a gentleman needs to study and know a loit more than rubies. so therefore : which classical nude do you like the face of ?

19:00:17 mircea_popescu: but i don't mean copacetically like. i mean like like one's supposed to like art : un coup fumant. if she came off the toille you'd have no choice but to drop everything and marry her.

19:00:31 asciilifeform: how about botticelli's venus ?

19:00:58 mircea_popescu: i dunno, what you like is what you like. to me she seems dumb.

19:01:12 asciilifeform: but least so

19:01:12 mircea_popescu: much like maja has the face of a sly thirteen year old.

19:01:16 asciilifeform: of all the ones i can recall.

19:01:26 mircea_popescu: i do not wish to consort with preteens ffs.

19:01:38 *: mircea_popescu looks again

19:02:03 mircea_popescu: mneah. i dun like it, not my kinda woman.

19:02:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'на вкус и на цвет товарища нет' (tm) (r)

19:02:49 asciilifeform: (how do you englisch that?)

19:03:37 mircea_popescu: anyway. people like alma-tadema, godward etc do women that look more like adults

19:03:59 mircea_popescu: "de gustibus" ?

19:04:05 asciilifeform: ^ approx.

19:04:30 mircea_popescu: color and taste aren't comrades ?

19:04:35 asciilifeform: no

19:04:59 mircea_popescu: it literally sayz, za taste and za color, comrades not.

19:05:47 asciilifeform: again no.

19:05:55 mircea_popescu: wut are teh words mean!

19:05:58 asciilifeform: for colour or taste, ain't no such thing as friend

19:06:44 mircea_popescu: ooo yeah

19:07:36 mircea_popescu: >in< color and taste there aren't comrades

19:07:47 asciilifeform: aha.

19:09:30 mircea_popescu: anyway, upon consideration venus does have to some degree the sharp features of the ideal fox. at least moreso than all the piefaces everyone wants to paint for some reason

19:09:46 mircea_popescu: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Edouard_Manet_-_Luncheon_on_the_Grass_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg < wtf is that.

19:09:49 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcFV1K )

19:10:09 mircea_popescu: great idea, great painting, why does the woman's face look like it was peeled off asphalt pizza

19:10:14 asciilifeform: ugh

19:11:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24700 @ 0.00070309 = 17.3663 BTC [-]

19:13:27 mircea_popescu: from punkman's article :

19:13:28 mircea_popescu: Authenticating a work of art is often difficult, and more difficult when the art is four or five hundred years old, and at least one tool for the expert, to wit, provenance, is often limited or non-existent. And, science (materials analysis) does not get us very far since many of the problems for Old Masters come right out of the artist's studio (think Rembrandt). Thus, for Old Masters at least, the expert is left to r

19:13:28 mircea_popescu: ely almost entirely on expert opinion concerning the quality of the art, that is to say, is the quality of the art being examined of the quality expected of a painting by the artist?in this case, Caravaggio.

19:13:28 mircea_popescu: And then, when the experts have come to their conclusion, and that conclusion is challenged in court, (as opposed to the marketplace or in critical writing), a judge must decide that the experts were right or wrong.

19:13:30 asciilifeform: 'in savour or hue, no comrades have you'

19:13:36 asciilifeform: ^ finally a working english.

19:13:41 mircea_popescu: rank fucking nonsense. it should be clearly obvious this is not something the court can do.

19:13:53 mircea_popescu: "oh, but we already do guilt and innocence, which are ALSO transcendents"

19:14:02 mircea_popescu: "yes, but you do those BY SPECIAL MANDATE!.

19:14:11 mircea_popescu: quo fucko warranto you do it for art, too!

19:14:21 asciilifeform: hence why i said 'they annoint under pretence of adjudicating'

19:14:33 asciilifeform: sop lizard service.

19:15:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have nfi why you think 'in savour or hue, no comrades have you' better than "in color or taste there's no comrades"

19:15:39 asciilifeform: because it checksums.

19:15:59 mircea_popescu: (it rhymes in russian because it's russian. a language from 1700! it needn't rhyme in english, unless we're going for faux-peasant wisdom)

19:16:01 mircea_popescu: !up referredbyqntra

19:16:51 mircea_popescu: incidentally, isn't this also strictly wrong ? wasn't it the case that the whole village ate ~the exact same dish~ every day forever ?

19:17:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34100 @ 0.00072009 = 24.5551 BTC [+] {3}

19:17:06 mircea_popescu: in romania it was polenta + cheese + onion cut up.

19:17:14 asciilifeform: ate because it was 'on the menu'

19:17:19 asciilifeform: not because 'we all love'

19:17:21 mircea_popescu: but it did make comraderie.

19:17:26 mircea_popescu: they did say so!

19:17:28 asciilifeform: aha. so does prison.

19:17:33 mircea_popescu: so then.

19:17:42 mircea_popescu: but no, it is oft seen as an ideal.

19:17:55 *: asciilifeform notice, did not sign it as 'ideal'

19:18:05 mircea_popescu: "no, i dont think they were townpeople [ie idiots] because when sitting to repast they took out mamaliga cu brinza like normal pewople]

19:18:29 mircea_popescu: no i mean, the common, standard foodl. regarded as ideal by the village prisoners.

19:18:57 asciilifeform: !s american cheese

19:18:58 assbot: 13 results for 'american cheese' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=american+cheese

19:19:05 asciilifeform: ^ same effect, discussed in at least one old thread

19:19:16 asciilifeform: folks will go and look for the shitsoup they grew up with, yes.

19:19:32 *: mircea_popescu actually likes it, has it in argentina even.

19:19:43 asciilifeform: which?

19:19:46 mircea_popescu: perhaps the only time romania's ww1 peculiar dish was eaten here this millenium

19:19:50 mircea_popescu: mamaliga cu brinza.

19:19:58 asciilifeform: the porrige? nothing wrong with that

19:20:32 mircea_popescu: it's usually boiled into solid. something like http://www.romaniadevis.ro/dacia/cache/com_zoo/images/mamaliga-cu-branza-si-smantana_0021_008f3c26469f8cb5dd3dd0f6a0301d8a.JPG

19:20:33 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcGXuB )

19:20:56 *: asciilifeform knows of this dish only from father, who travelled a good bit in ro

19:21:25 asciilifeform: (in the old days)

19:21:41 mircea_popescu: it's not really hard to make, need pot with water and coarse ground corn. and a woman that knows how long to boil it and what proportions.

19:22:34 *: asciilifeform only learned how to make proper 'манная каша' (english, approx, 'cream of wheat') as an adult; and is still tempted to try doing it in a chemist's double boiler with magnetic stir bar

19:22:51 mircea_popescu: casa's different

19:23:01 asciilifeform: but mentioned because it suffers from same problem

19:23:08 asciilifeform: has to be kept at low boil for entire time

19:23:10 mircea_popescu: more heavily, ithink

19:23:11 mircea_popescu: yeah

19:23:16 asciilifeform: and stirred or it bakes onto the pot

19:23:19 mod6: asciilifeform: ok, got it figured: check here please: http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel1-test-20150822.patch && http://thebitcoin.foundation/misc/rel2-pre-test-20150822.patch

19:23:20 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1h41BkQ )

19:23:21 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1h41BkS )

19:23:32 asciilifeform: hence it is absolutely begging for chemist's boiler and magnetic stirrer

19:23:53 mircea_popescu: ture.

19:24:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11168 @ 0.00072036 = 8.045 BTC [+] {2}

19:24:32 asciilifeform: mod6: these look superficially correct, but need to be 1) compared mechanically and 2) rebased as i spoke of earlier

19:24:58 mod6: yup yup, i recall. just trying to make sure i'm on the right track so i don't waste everyones time :]

19:25:04 asciilifeform: mod6: very much on right track

19:26:08 mod6: good deal. i'll see what I can do about the mechanical checking and rebasing maybe later tonight, or tomorrow for sure.

19:26:23 asciilifeform: mod6: neat

19:27:12 ag3nt_zer0: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248275 << ever looked at this?: http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/f_for_fake/

19:27:12 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 13:05:58; punkman: "before he resigned from the library he realized that his trick had occurred to someone else. Several of the paintings he made had been replaced, his copies stolen. So the Academy was exhibiting fakes of fakes and someone was selling, or trying to sell, art by Xiao."

19:27:14 assbot: F for Fake (1974) - Rotten Tomatoes ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcHxZv )

19:28:18 mircea_popescu: For every auction sale, a catalogue is produced describing each painting to be sold. Every entry indicates the certainty with which Sotheby's is prepared to attribute it to a particular artist. The catalogue entry may describe a painting in the following ways: i) Simply putting the name of the artist, for example, ?Giovanni Bellini,' means that, in Sotheby's opinion, the work is by Bellini. ii) Attributed to Giovanni

19:28:18 mircea_popescu: Bellini means that, in Sotheby's opinion, this is probably a work by Bellini, but there is less certainty expressed as to authorship than in the preceding category. iii) Studio of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, this is a work by an unknown hand in the studio of Bellini, and it may or may not have been executed under his direction. iv) Circle of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, it is a wor

19:28:18 mircea_popescu: k by an as yet unidentified but distinct hand, closely associated with Bellini but not necessarily his pupil. v) Style/Follower of Giovanni Bellini means that, in their opinion, this is a work by a painter working in Bellini's style, contemporary or nearly contemporary, but not necessarily his pupil. ?Contemporary or nearly contemporary' means that it was painted within about 50 years of Bellini's work. vi) Manner of

19:28:23 mircea_popescu: Giovanni Bellini means that in their opinion, this is a work in the style of Bellini and of a later date. vii) After Giovanni Bellini means that in their opinion, this is a copy of a known work of Bellini.

19:28:33 mircea_popescu: check these people out, they have fine art authorship grading down to a fine art!

19:29:46 asciilifeform: i can't wait till they start doing circus like this for, e.g., a pgp signature

19:30:03 mircea_popescu: the merit of a pgp signature is that it delivers them from having to do this.

19:30:07 asciilifeform: like that czech short story, author i can't recall, where a 'graphologist' is made to pronounce re: the authenticity of a typewritten page!

19:30:16 mircea_popescu: do not think that the intelligent people caught like bubbles in the fiat mire are happy to be there.

19:30:26 asciilifeform: proceeding from a mandated assumption that it was written by human hand

19:30:31 mircea_popescu: this is commonly done! typewriters are handwriters.

19:30:43 asciilifeform: yes, but not done as graphology

19:30:48 mircea_popescu: nonono. there is such a thing as "identify typewriter"

19:30:51 asciilifeform: but as own legit procedure, invented later

19:30:51 asciilifeform: aha

19:30:53 mircea_popescu: well yeah

19:31:00 asciilifeform: this was prior.

19:31:03 mircea_popescu: a ok

19:31:30 ag3nt_zer0: "The final directorial project the legendary Orson Welles completed during his lifetime, F for Fake is less a documentary than an example of cinematic free association on the topic of trickery. Much of the film is in fact drawn from other sources, most notably an unfinished documentary by Francois Reichenbach on the notorious Elmyr de Hory, whose extremely skillful forgeries of famous paintings caused scandals amongst art

19:31:57 ag3nt_zer0: of irony, de Hory's interviewer is author Clifford Irving, who became infamous due to a forgery of his own: a falsified autobiography of Howard Hughes. Welles openly re-edits and manipulates this footage, using it as a spine for his own commentary, arguing that there is an extremely close relationship between art and lying, and citing instances from his own career to prove the point."

19:32:35 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248670 << i still see ~actual authentication~ as being ~incidental~ to these proceedings. as in j.e.hoover's famous quip 'justice is incidental to law and order'

19:32:35 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 19:30:03; mircea_popescu: the merit of a pgp signature is that it delivers them from having to do this.

19:32:50 asciilifeform: they don't 'have to', but want to. the conclusion is pre-ordained.

19:33:14 mircea_popescu: i do not share this view.

19:33:48 mircea_popescu: ag3nt_zer0 i dun think much of welles as a director.

19:34:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57650 @ 0.0007213 = 41.5829 BTC [+] {4}

19:35:19 ag3nt_zer0: ok, don't really have an opinion on him myself, but I thought that film was quite entertaining... like a cinematic hall of mirrors or something

19:36:07 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=06-03-2015#1044114 - ergo, 'this vermeer, in the gallery of our esteemed lord rothchild, is genuine. this picasso, in the suitcase of this ragged thief and scoundrel, is most certainly questionable.'

19:36:07 assbot: Logged on 06-03-2015 03:29:02; mircea_popescu: making money is a purely ~political~ function. if you are among the favoured elite of the respublica veneta, you then may invest in the ships, and make a profit. if not, not.

19:36:22 ag3nt_zer0: and Irving and Elmyr are quite the characters haha

19:36:35 asciilifeform: and the 'questionable' is 'surely genuine' when ragged man goes to jail and the canvas finds its way to lord rothchild.

19:36:38 mircea_popescu: you have a strange equivocation of power an' legitimacy going on there, asciilifeform

19:36:43 asciilifeform: hm?

19:36:52 mircea_popescu: justice covers two different things.

19:37:26 mircea_popescu: or how shall i put this, there are two types of question justice answers.

19:38:11 ag3nt_zer0: mircea_popescu: who do you hold in high esteem as a director?

19:38:17 mircea_popescu: felini.

19:38:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: two?

19:39:20 mircea_popescu: but honestly, Visconti is probably the best dirctor that ever lived.

19:40:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. vaguely speaking, one's a contest among the crowd of boys. "everyone wants to be the one at the wheel, so who shall ?"

19:40:41 ag3nt_zer0: thanks I will look

19:40:46 mircea_popescu: the other's a more fundamental type of dispute, you could stilisize as "between man and god".

19:41:00 asciilifeform: i see the proceedings of that court as similar to those of all modern courts: a continuation of the basic lie of 'rule of law', where 'it is not the sultan who condemns you to impalement, but the majesty of the law'

19:41:03 mircea_popescu: roman practice suffered the tension, but also made it amply abundant

19:41:06 asciilifeform: a legitimacy-washing.

19:41:26 mircea_popescu: you do this because you don't recognise the fundamental tension, and so examples in one line cloud your estimation of the other.

19:41:53 mircea_popescu: but you're familiar with the roman, and originally greek notions of "broke the laws of men and gods" yes ?

19:41:58 asciilifeform: aha

19:42:04 asciilifeform: the spray paint was thinner in those days

19:42:08 mircea_popescu: this does not at all translate into civil and criminal

19:42:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81159 @ 0.00070855 = 57.5052 BTC [-] {2}

19:42:45 mircea_popescu: well look, you agree with the broad idea that no man made thing may endure without a place the buck stops ?

19:42:50 asciilifeform: aha

19:43:07 mircea_popescu: wheresoever that place is, whosoever sits in it, has the same twin problem no matter what.

19:44:06 mircea_popescu: ag3nt_zer0 see "la terra trema". think that the film was made in the 1950s by using RANDOM LOCALS

19:44:14 mircea_popescu: then tell me.

19:44:23 asciilifeform: there was, i think, a third, more pressing problem: why ought the sultan rule, when he can invent bureaucracy and have amoebas rule in his stead, while he bangs 10,000 chicks/year and smokes opium

19:44:31 asciilifeform: they solved it with 'law'.

19:44:42 mircea_popescu: not so.

19:45:19 mircea_popescu: for one thing, no opium smoker bangs 30 women a day even for two days straight,

19:45:21 asciilifeform: consider, why is soviet law seen as a laughing stock ?

19:45:35 asciilifeform: i would say it is only because it did not have centuries of decorative patina on it.

19:45:40 mircea_popescu: because made by stupid people.

19:45:45 asciilifeform: so it was apparent, and remains apparent, for what it is.

19:45:46 mircea_popescu: why are ww2 soviet tanks a laughing stock ?

19:45:58 asciilifeform: ask the germans if they laughed.

19:46:15 mircea_popescu: ask stolje if he laughed at law.

19:47:14 mircea_popescu: they're both equally ridiculous things, for the same exact reason : made "as best we could" by the russians of the time, who were peasants not lawmakers or tank makers. they have all the qualities of chinese farm steel.

19:48:23 asciilifeform: (more complicated story, with tank. diesel motor was an unambiguous win, as all tank makers eventually came to know.)

19:48:28 mircea_popescu: on the practical side, they both WORKED, if one's tolerant with the concept. soviet law maintained order in a larger thing than the us, better than the us managed.

19:49:13 asciilifeform: except it was not, largely, 'law' which maintained order. 'law' was simply the religious incantation uttered by judge before a troublemaker was sent to meet his fate

19:49:19 asciilifeform: rather than an actual decision-making mechanism

19:49:32 asciilifeform: when this was no longer the case, the edifice began to fall apart.

19:49:39 mircea_popescu: and the tank was not, strictly speaking, a tank.

19:49:58 mircea_popescu: and whjen they gave up their random approach, they came up with the kv, an overengineered useless pos.

19:50:32 asciilifeform: ^ famous 'second-system effect'! like 'multics.' for that matter, it is an atrocity that scholarly discussions of 'second-system' and 'multics' do not mention the kv !

19:50:46 mircea_popescu: because they're as ignorant as my dirty socks.

19:50:56 mircea_popescu: yes, they were on my feet. they have cells descuamated off me even.

19:51:01 mircea_popescu: whadda they know for it.

19:52:00 asciilifeform: 'Прощай КВ братишка наш!!!'

19:52:12 asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjWziqlm-Lw << obligatory

19:52:13 assbot: Прощай КВ братишка наш!!! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcJRiU )

19:53:33 mircea_popescu: ahaha wtf is this retarded shit

19:53:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57104 @ 0.00069548 = 39.7147 BTC [-]

19:53:39 mircea_popescu: aaaahahaha

19:54:17 asciilifeform: http://a-pesni.org/ww2/folk/gibeltankista.php << text

19:54:18 assbot: По полю танки грохотали... (Гибель танкиста и т. д.) ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcK062 )

19:54:31 asciilifeform: one of those things that everybody knew the wordz to.

19:54:43 mircea_popescu: no i know teh song lol.

19:54:59 mircea_popescu: 325 views ? "obligatory" ? is this like... made by your gf's younger brother or something ? howdja find it

19:55:01 asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV942i_zbzE << minus the tards, for anyone who needs it.

19:55:02 assbot: На поле танки грохотали (Na Pole Tanki Grohotali) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1KcK4CY )

19:55:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from first stab

19:55:50 mircea_popescu: see, these kids is the fundamental reason a) ru young women are well fucked (well means more than just a lot) and b) the chechens aren't isis.

19:55:54 *: mircea_popescu likes.

19:56:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99133 @ 0.00069167 = 68.5673 BTC [-] {2}

19:56:47 mircea_popescu: does not even agree with "tards" to any degree. yes they sound like monkeys. this is not retarded for their age, healthy 17 yo boys sound like that.

19:57:10 asciilifeform: nah. tards 'cause the thing wasn't full of saltpetre and didn't light well!

19:57:14 asciilifeform: mine did

19:57:36 mircea_popescu: but tard means something very anglo-speciffic.

19:57:44 asciilifeform: perhaps.

19:57:47 mircea_popescu: it means this 27 yo man that is indistinguishable from an 11 yo girl.

19:58:12 asciilifeform: certain that the authors of the film were not this ?

19:59:13 mircea_popescu: i am persuaded.

19:59:26 asciilifeform: they have, after all, learned to manufacture those, back in ru.

20:00:01 asciilifeform: gotta copy ~all~ american innovations, ya know.

20:00:08 mircea_popescu: could be wrng, who knows.

20:00:09 mircea_popescu: lol

20:00:16 asciilifeform: but easiest ones get copied first!

20:00:41 mircea_popescu: this being the only "american innovation" ?

20:01:09 asciilifeform: nah, but a popular one for some reason.

20:15:53 mircea_popescu: incidentally, even though modern pigments and computers and what have you, we're not being deluged in fine art, as "you'd expect" (if you were say orwell or some other dumb schmuck with the If a man cannot enjoy the return of spring, why should he be happy in a labour-saving Utopia? What will he do with the leisure that the machine will give him? I have always suspected that if our economic and political problems are e

20:15:53 mircea_popescu: ver really solved, life will become simpler instead of more complex, and that the sort of pleasure one gets from finding the first primrose will loom larger than the sort of pleasure one gets from eating an ice to the tune of a Wurlitzer." thing)

20:16:00 mircea_popescu: instead the stuff everywhere's remarkably gross.

20:18:10 mircea_popescu: why ? why, because the redditar of 1600 thought himself blessed to "waste his life away" being a "from X's circle" at the very best. whereas the redditard of 2000 thinks his life too valuable to invest in anything. he is now a thinking man, don't you know, an intellectual - everyone's an intellectual that has computers, suddenly - and a tiny little Kitschhochadel in his own right!

20:18:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: orwell assumed that full-scale human beings were a naturally-occurring product that could be taken for granted.

20:18:48 mircea_popescu: yes. because he was a socialist, which is to say an idiot, and expected socialism, which always is "externalise costs" to be able to do so forever.

20:18:53 mircea_popescu: who the hell knew EVERYTHING had a cost!

20:19:12 mircea_popescu: what, you can't just print more money and the expectation to the contrary sinks early sopcialism ?

20:19:25 asciilifeform: where in orwell do we see 'print money' ?

20:19:31 mircea_popescu: no matter! we "learn from mistakes", ie, claim that "socialism wasn't actually tried" and try again. the same thing. this time, we're printing people.,

20:19:45 mircea_popescu: what, still doesn't work ? NO MATTER!!!1 for we "learn from mistakes"

20:19:54 mircea_popescu: the thief also learns from the dubious mistake of having been caught.

20:20:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform we don't, he's advanced.

20:20:20 mircea_popescu: he's not stupid v1, he's stupid v3.

20:22:10 mircea_popescu: down with the shackles of this evil british empire of the blips which nevertheless creates the sort of people i like, even if i'm not actuaslly good enough to do anything in support. let's build utopia.

20:22:31 asciilifeform: as far as i can tell, it was dead long before he learned to read and write

20:22:50 asciilifeform: what was he to do, cry over the corpse like his contemporaries? then we would not be reading!

20:22:56 mircea_popescu: i did not say orwell was ineffectuial. i said he was stupid.

20:23:04 mircea_popescu: yes the bridge is falling whether 5yo cheers it on or not.

20:23:07 asciilifeform: i still want to picture a 'smart orwell'

20:23:09 mircea_popescu: but the cheering 5yo is still dumbn

20:23:52 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform : ;;google fraudsters napier

20:24:19 asciilifeform: at one point, iirc, he quotes the mega-liturgical 'The rich man in his castle, / The poor man at his gate, / God made them, high or lowly, / And ordered their estate.' as an example of the kind of thing that killing christianity finally nailed, and he can't bring himself to miss it

20:24:42 asciilifeform: but i don't see that this necessarily qualifies him as a tard. how is one to love something which is incompatible with your own existence ?

20:24:50 mircea_popescu: a) never was this nailed, anymore than the sun rising is "nailed".

20:25:04 mircea_popescu: and the poor array of the marbles in his head's his problem.

20:25:18 mircea_popescu: "So perverse is mankind that every nationality prefers to be misgoverned by its own people than to be well ruled by another."

20:25:23 mircea_popescu: that's smart orwell for you.

20:25:44 asciilifeform: can be extended to individual, as well.

20:26:09 mircea_popescu: so it can. except the individual has the valid excuse of the sexual imperative

20:26:13 mircea_popescu: but countries are unsexuate

20:26:14 asciilifeform: ergo the old thread re: why a sp4mz0r wants to 'make $ while sleep'

20:26:19 mircea_popescu: (which is why they're referred in the feminine)

20:27:39 asciilifeform: orwell, like - i suspect - a great many folks, carried out the algo where 'i want the kind of world in which i and others like me can sleep ad libitum and eat well' - and turned that into 'philosophy'

20:28:02 mircea_popescu: yes, the philosophy of a five year old.

20:28:12 mircea_popescu: which is why i say socialism is for stupid people and the mark of their stupidity.

20:29:07 mircea_popescu: every fucking year you get at least one of the imbecile "why should i have to take an exam".

20:29:09 mircea_popescu: every fucking year.

20:29:13 mircea_popescu: and each one thinks he invented it.

20:29:59 asciilifeform: the way i read him, he saw 'socialism' (in the sense of industry having a single mega-imperial owner) as a done deal, with the only question being whether the end result would have a gestapo flavour, british ponce buggery flavour, or some other

20:30:46 mircea_popescu: that part i wasnt even discussing, the "economic" side so to speak. yes, moist people are dumb and industry has no need of them, so from their perspertive industry's run by aliens. fine.

20:30:52 mircea_popescu: but i meant in the more homely sense.

20:32:31 asciilifeform: elaborate?

20:33:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and btw, thinking about it - i now realise visconti, the son of the duke visconti no less, actually is the one example of resistence through culture known. his terra trema was paid for by the communist party. and in it he delivers such a trashing to the pious frauds of the communists as has never before seen.

20:33:31 mircea_popescu: the most important film in support of sanity is a story of poor but stupid sicilian fishermen paid for by fucking stalin.

20:33:59 mircea_popescu: and i meant in the more homely sense, socialist-books and socialist-philosophy and what have you. not socialist-economy.

20:35:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82850 @ 0.00071101 = 58.9072 BTC [+] {3}

20:36:14 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what books and philosophy of his time ought he have reviewed instead ?

20:36:38 mircea_popescu: the germans. heidegger.

20:36:38 asciilifeform: evola? prolly smelled too much of gestapo, triggered anaphylactic allergic shock in mr o

20:36:42 mircea_popescu: kant.

20:37:02 asciilifeform: as a cultured man, he likely read'em. but i spoke specifically of 'his time'

20:37:04 asciilifeform: as in, his reviews

20:37:11 asciilifeform: the man was a newspaper columnist.

20:37:12 mircea_popescu: bullshit, read.

20:37:15 mircea_popescu: and heidegger is his own time.

20:37:23 mircea_popescu: that is an excuse ?

20:37:25 asciilifeform: then likely allergic to germans ?

20:37:36 mircea_popescu: how about "allergic to work".

20:37:46 asciilifeform: and of course to work!

20:37:52 mircea_popescu: http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part37

20:37:55 assbot: Fifty Orwell Essays ... ( http://bit.ly/1UDzJTv )

20:38:00 mircea_popescu: nbo dude, not OF COURSE TO WORK omfg,

20:38:33 mircea_popescu: the "Worker's party" of stupid people and lazy people who figure hey, if worker's in the title above the door work does itself somehow

20:38:36 mircea_popescu: we'll just sing and dance.

20:38:59 mircea_popescu: everyone in this country got nothing but "trabajador" in his mouth, and no one's done an honest stitch of work since 1924

20:39:31 asciilifeform: idk, i saw a good number of cabbies, cooks, over there. not worked ?

20:39:54 mircea_popescu: those keep their mouth shut.

20:40:02 mircea_popescu: i meant of the orwell class.

20:40:18 mircea_popescu: two-and-sixpence intellectuals of "newspaper columnist:

20:45:07 mircea_popescu: (for the younger log reader, "two-and-sixpence" is not random, but a century ago made half a crown. it is used in a sense similar to "too clever by half", because that's really what half a crown is. worse than either a whole crown or no crown at all. at least in the context of this discussion)

20:47:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform come to think of it - he has a deeply unwarranted sense of superiority over shaw. easily the most important thinker of the period in all the english speaking lands.

20:48:02 mircea_popescu: i suspect this is also based on not having read.

20:52:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50559 @ 0.00068366 = 34.5652 BTC [-] {2}

21:08:29 mircea_popescu: anyway, the main problem with that art ruling thing, getting back to it, is that revisionism in inflation is a bitch. specifically, that sale was in 2006, before the first bout of "quantitative easing". most art of all description sells today for 10x to 100x what it did two decades ago, simply because dollars today, and euros today, are scarcely worth 10 cents. (no, this does not mean nothing to the slaves that spend "

21:08:30 mircea_popescu: their" "dollars" to buy from mcdonalds and zara. money only means money in the hands of the people who can use it independently, and what someone with tens of millions to his name was in 1995, is what someone wit ha billion to his name today. i'd know.)

21:08:44 mircea_popescu: so in plain point of fact "the guy would have gotten more in the alternative world" bla bla bla.

21:08:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99050 @ 0.0006842 = 67.77 BTC [+]

21:09:38 ben_vulpes: fluffypony: it's a joke, man.

21:11:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well, yes. art is used precisely like bitcoin, but by the enemy.

21:11:58 mircea_popescu: not by the enemy, but by the kulaks behind enemy lines.

21:12:20 asciilifeform: by the architects of the sum total of extant misfortune.

21:12:40 mircea_popescu: i am not convinced.

21:12:50 mircea_popescu: why do you think so ?

21:12:51 asciilifeform: what, the rembrandt owners couldn't turn inflation off like a tap ?

21:12:56 mircea_popescu: could not, no.

21:13:04 mircea_popescu: what, stalin couldn't turn off stupid like a tap ?

21:13:17 mircea_popescu: hitler could have took a stand in 1940 against antisemitism!

21:13:47 mircea_popescu: only i have the privilege to stand up here and say something of the kind. because i'm part of a fucking republic.

21:13:49 asciilifeform: who cancelled gold standard? omnipotent martians?

21:13:52 mircea_popescu: these people don't have a forum.

21:13:53 asciilifeform: or earth elite

21:14:24 mircea_popescu: gold standard was cancelled by the mass of idiots.

21:14:36 mircea_popescu: who went by the "why should something be a standard if what it says is, we don't get any and stfu"

21:14:41 asciilifeform: since when can 'mass of idiots' make any permanent mark at all?

21:14:46 asciilifeform: somebody took'em off the leash.

21:14:48 mircea_popescu: exactly like they go "oh, why should i read fraudsters if fraudsters says i'm broken"

21:14:51 asciilifeform: these folks - own rembrandts.

21:14:58 mircea_popescu: they are punishing me, see, like they punished the gold standard. in their own heads.

21:15:14 mircea_popescu: haha, someone took them off the leash. ww2 took them off the leash./

21:15:28 mircea_popescu: and the napoleonic wars before that.

21:15:36 asciilifeform: if you ask moldy, it was cromwell

21:15:39 asciilifeform: but no matter

21:15:39 mircea_popescu: and the german uprisings during calvin before that. and so on.

21:16:50 phf: (was it in the logs, guy brings authentic X "passed through family", gets accused of stealing, because "you're poor, so can't possibly have X")

21:17:00 asciilifeform: at any rate, what, the rembrandt owners couldn't sell the crap off (to usg, even. it's buying), buy btc, and send to isis?

21:17:06 asciilifeform: what does their refusal to do so make'em ?

21:17:13 mircea_popescu: understand : we have the liberty to decide tomorrow that gavin was right. or that bitcoin is stupid. or that whatever else. all this because liberty AT ALL.

21:17:17 mircea_popescu: but there is no liberty outside.

21:17:32 mircea_popescu: so, no. kulaks behind enemy lines made no decisions.

21:17:35 asciilifeform: phf: yes, in the logs; a german fella

21:17:39 asciilifeform: phf: and it is absolutely routine

21:17:46 mircea_popescu: and they are responsible and shall hang for the decisions they didn't make.

21:17:58 asciilifeform: ^ is what i was getting at.

21:18:05 mircea_popescu: phf "passed through family" in that context is always a miserable cop out.

21:18:16 mircea_popescu: somehow never is anyone in that family someone with a registered key.

21:18:18 mircea_popescu: magically.

21:18:30 mircea_popescu: so i do not credit it nearly as much as you two seem to.

21:18:41 asciilifeform: here is a 'fun experiment' - get caught somewhere in a 'civilized' country with a trunk full of gold bar

21:18:55 asciilifeform: or even humble benjies

21:19:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you understand what i mean by "in the wot" in that context ?

21:19:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9747 @ 0.000722 = 7.0373 BTC [+]

21:19:19 asciilifeform: not certain that i do ?

21:19:48 mircea_popescu: suppose i have a work picasso himself signed with the title "stanislav's teapot shaped head"

21:20:03 mircea_popescu: and i explain that this comes to me "through family".

21:20:35 mircea_popescu: except this "through family" claim is documented through five different testations, and it so happens that my uncle was a picasso expert who wrote extensively of this picasso work his brother owned.

21:20:36 mircea_popescu: and so on.

21:20:38 mircea_popescu: my claim is good.

21:20:38 ag3nt_zer0: http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/Public/articles/A_Figure_of_Speech_or_a_Figure_of_Thought_Part_1-by_Ananda_Coomaraswamy.aspx

21:20:40 assbot: "A Figure of Speech, or a Figure of Thought?" (Part 1) - an essay by Ananda K. Coomaraswamy ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLD58Y )

21:20:54 mircea_popescu: now suppose i "own" the same, "in the family", but my family is a bunch of poor peasants from honduras.

21:20:57 mircea_popescu: wut "in family" ?

21:21:06 mircea_popescu: let me show you "in the family".

21:21:14 ag3nt_zer0: Coomaraswamy is fascinating "art historian"

21:21:22 mircea_popescu: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23349744 << that's in the family.

21:21:23 assbot: Stolen Picasso and Monet art 'burned' in Romanian oven - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLD9FR )

21:21:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta what i said in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=03-02-2015#1005374

21:21:28 assbot: Logged on 03-02-2015 22:35:01; asciilifeform: 'mr x, you're a registered pauper, but is that a first class air ticket you're holding? where'dyagetthat'

21:21:39 mircea_popescu: well of course ?!

21:21:40 asciilifeform: to which you answered 'and then i say i found it on the street.'

21:21:46 mircea_popescu: what worth is an undocumented claim ?

21:21:52 mircea_popescu: we reject these here on a daily basis!

21:21:58 asciilifeform: to the inquisitor - naturally nothing

21:22:11 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=20-08-2015#1246288

21:22:11 assbot: Logged on 20-08-2015 23:05:51; ahmed_bodi: Occasional trader. remember trading with a few people here. lost my PGP? key so i cant auth with assbot myself anymore

21:22:15 mircea_popescu: what is that claim to you ?

21:22:28 mircea_popescu: guy's obviously a scammer fishing for soft support, decimation style.

21:22:31 asciilifeform: except that the two situations are dissimilar

21:22:34 mircea_popescu: how ?

21:22:39 asciilifeform: pgp is a hard litmus

21:22:44 mircea_popescu: so is this.

21:22:52 asciilifeform: the picasso authentication folks purport to be authenticating the canvas,

21:22:59 asciilifeform: but really are testing blueness of blood.

21:23:02 mircea_popescu: here's the litmus : "what part of this alleged family HAPPENED IN THE FORUM ?"

21:23:34 asciilifeform: not saying that somehow there ~ought~ to be a way for the peasant to cash his picasso in

21:23:42 mircea_popescu: so then what are you saying ?

21:23:48 asciilifeform: but that the claim that the picasso is the object being tested is a crock of shit

21:23:49 mircea_popescu: there isn't a way for peasant to OWN picasso

21:23:51 asciilifeform: it is the man who is tested.

21:23:57 mircea_popescu: not anymore than there's a way for him to own plutonium.

21:24:02 asciilifeform: and it usually doesn't take long.

21:24:07 mircea_popescu: ownership is not an objective thing.,

21:24:10 mircea_popescu: ownership is a convention

21:24:12 asciilifeform: ^

21:24:15 mircea_popescu: it is wrong to say "the man is tested

21:24:18 mircea_popescu: the WOT is tested.

21:24:20 asciilifeform: aha.

21:24:24 mircea_popescu: no relations, NO RELATION!

21:24:29 asciilifeform: i don't think we actually disagree here.

21:24:35 mircea_popescu: so then what do you protest ?!

21:24:48 asciilifeform: the pretence of the scumbag 'authenticity' judges

21:24:52 asciilifeform: and auctioneers.

21:24:55 mircea_popescu: "i owned it since forever" "who ever saw it ?" "only mute people"

21:24:58 asciilifeform: with their idiot rituals

21:25:02 mircea_popescu: i do not see it.

21:25:45 mircea_popescu: if you claim that "hilary clinton is my wife" on the grounds of "she was always in my family" should your claim stand ?

21:25:55 mircea_popescu: against the nonsensical vacuum of anyone ever having seen this ?

21:25:58 mircea_popescu: no wedding pictures?

21:26:02 mircea_popescu: you never went anywhere as a couple ?

21:26:04 mircea_popescu: she did, with others ?

21:26:05 mircea_popescu: wtf.

21:26:36 mircea_popescu: yes, people will consider you're abject, after this claim. but the claim was disposed not on the grounds of who you are, but on the grounds of what proof was had.

21:29:32 asciilifeform: my other, separate statement was 'godspeed to anyone successfully faking and debasing their inflationhedgemachines'

21:29:35 asciilifeform: separate item.

21:29:42 mircea_popescu: well sure.

21:30:30 mircea_popescu: you'll notice however that the debasement is very well controlled in the same manner fed controlls the dollar.

21:30:41 mircea_popescu: they keep pumping more kids in as they need to keep the denominations low enough.

21:30:47 hanbot: <asciilifeform> it is the man who is tested. << http://fraudsters.com/2012/bitcoin-and-the-poor/#comment-90231

21:30:48 assbot: Bitcoin and the poor on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLE6hf )

21:30:53 *: mircea_popescu knows random romanian kid that sold for ~1.5mn last year

21:30:56 mircea_popescu: because why not

21:31:45 asciilifeform: hanbot: what i meant was, tested for 'blue blood' and not anything else. certainly not intelligence, or culture.

21:31:54 mircea_popescu: ...

21:32:04 mircea_popescu: the test still is "who among you has a wot account"!

21:32:26 asciilifeform: aha.

21:32:31 hanbot: which condenses to "who among you has/d the intelligence to get in the wot", neh?

21:32:47 mircea_popescu: http://www.jeg.ro/part-2-looking-at-the-art-world-over-adrian-ghenie-s-shoulder-and-why-i-hate-it-or-love-it-not-sure/ < kid in question

21:32:50 assbot: Part 2: Looking at the art world over Adrian Ghenie’s shoulder and why I hate it or love it. Not sure. ... ( http://bit.ly/1WLEk84 )

21:32:50 asciilifeform: hanbot: are you in their wot ?

21:33:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's fucking trivial to get in said wot.

21:33:10 asciilifeform: rly

21:33:13 mircea_popescu: yes rly.

21:33:18 asciilifeform: describe?

21:33:42 mircea_popescu: a) go to classical/art college ; b) go to auction house intern position ; c) write for whoever will publish about art and do a good job.

21:33:54 mircea_popescu: won't take 10 years, at how condensed timeframes are now. used to be 35-50.

21:34:07 asciilifeform: i'm not sure how an algo that requires me to get reborn as another person can be described as 'trivial'.

21:34:22 mircea_popescu: yes, well, what's your algo to become cussack ?

21:34:22 asciilifeform: 'how to fly? 1) be a bird'

21:34:29 mircea_popescu: THAT is a wot you're not getting in.

21:34:31 phf: "You? Impossible! A mason?" "A mason," I replied. "A sign," he said, "a sign." "It is this," I answered, producing from beneath the folds of my roquelaire a trowel.

21:34:39 mircea_popescu: but your argument is flawed, which i know personally, and ill tell you why

21:34:50 mircea_popescu: one of my dearest teachers in college, at the time a respected doctor, retired

21:35:02 mircea_popescu: and started a career in art, specifically painting scholarship

21:35:08 mircea_popescu: and he is now a foremost authority in his field.

21:35:18 mircea_popescu: i have with mine two eyes seen this, and so...

21:35:23 asciilifeform: and he turned up with an undiscovered picasso and it sold for 40m ?

21:35:32 mircea_popescu: no, for his field was not cubism

21:35:37 asciilifeform: $picasso

21:35:39 mircea_popescu: yes.

21:35:58 mircea_popescu: (his field was 1800s ro painting, which incidentally is pretty rich.)

21:36:02 asciilifeform: and sold ?

21:36:12 mircea_popescu: yes sold. he re-evalued numerous items.

21:36:16 asciilifeform: neato.

21:36:22 mircea_popescu: in the upper 100s at the very least.

21:37:01 asciilifeform: so from the wot pov, it is not an atrocity that if usg enforcers find me with a metric tonne of benjie bills in bags, they will take'em ?

21:37:18 asciilifeform: if the story of why i have them isn't plausible enough

21:37:40 asciilifeform: 'in the family' 'stow it'

21:37:53 mircea_popescu: well, it is an atrocity, because bills were itnended to be carrier notes.

21:38:00 mircea_popescu: but they re-defined them, apparently, to be a sort of cheques.

21:38:17 mircea_popescu: the part where they seem to also have forgotten to tell anyone is also atrrocious

21:38:17 asciilifeform: and the vermeer was intended as a wall decoration ?

21:38:20 asciilifeform: and also redefined

21:38:28 mircea_popescu: but in principle a parliament is not required to allow carrier notes in its realm.

21:38:58 mircea_popescu: i don't see how your simile works.

21:39:29 asciilifeform: in both cases there is a kind of sham going on

21:39:39 mircea_popescu: hardly.

21:39:46 asciilifeform: one where the lie is publicly told that 'if you have a picasso, it is yours, and you're worth 40m'

21:39:53 mircea_popescu: no such thing was told.

21:40:01 asciilifeform: rather than the reality, where it is really a trapping of power, like king's scepter

21:40:10 mircea_popescu: i don't know that ever in the history of civilisation was fine art a bearer document.

21:40:26 mircea_popescu: now, this was true of money, or more specifically, of currency

21:40:33 mircea_popescu: in fact that's what the word even means.

21:41:08 asciilifeform: it is a regular occurrence in usa that some schmuck find $canvas at an estate sale, then cleans it, it gets taken off his hands for a few hundy, and then a blueblood naturally converts it to 40m by getting it WoTed.

21:41:27 mircea_popescu: nobody forces him to go through the "taken off" step.

21:41:43 asciilifeform: now this is true!

21:41:49 mircea_popescu: it used to be a regular occurence in the usa that some cowboy owned some land, got it taken off his hands, buyer became oil baron

21:41:56 asciilifeform: and i'll have it be known that if i ever come across one, i will burn it. on high-def camera.

21:41:57 mircea_popescu: but one is not required to sell, be your own oil baron.

21:43:04 asciilifeform: not quite best analogy - theoretically a plebe may drill for oil (if the local rulers permit it)

21:43:08 mircea_popescu: anyway, this expectation that some sort of nativism trumps wot is not unlike that swanson's fellow's expectation to tell me "how debates are done".

21:43:13 mircea_popescu: what is this, kauai ?

21:44:29 asciilifeform: naturally their wot is at work

21:44:35 asciilifeform: but it is a wot of vampires of mankind.

21:44:44 asciilifeform: (who said they couldn't have a wot?)

21:45:09 asciilifeform: and they do indeed peddle false inclusivity at every turn.

21:45:15 mircea_popescu: of vampires of wut!?

21:45:31 asciilifeform: of everybody-who-isnt-rothchild ?

21:45:54 asciilifeform: approximately.

21:46:50 mircea_popescu: can you say something more substantial of this than plain if third hand echos of 1970s soviet postcards ?

21:47:03 asciilifeform: possibly.

21:47:51 mircea_popescu: so. b-a is the irc channel where vampires of mankind gather, to discuss how to lower into pederasty the teenaged daughters of hard working social media wokers.

21:48:26 asciilifeform: nah, the socialmedia folks are enforcers of the actual vampires.

21:48:39 asciilifeform: i still don't see how they could have come to exist in any other way

21:50:39 mircea_popescu: ...

21:50:47 mircea_popescu: this sounds like special pleading and nothing more.

21:51:24 asciilifeform: let's try example? the american universities who pioneered socialist claptrap. did they get cut off from endowments by american industrialists for doing so? 1900s

21:51:29 asciilifeform: iirc none did.

21:51:54 mircea_popescu: so ?

21:52:30 asciilifeform: so 'social media' is a a handcrafted monster of very real elites, rather than a plague of locusts that came out of nowhere

21:53:03 mircea_popescu: ...

21:53:09 mircea_popescu: dja know what special pleading means ?

21:53:22 asciilifeform: apparently not ?

21:53:59 mircea_popescu: special pleading is a category of pleading, which is a category of speech, which happens in the forum, where the speaker proposes that one member of a category be different from the others on no grounds.

21:54:26 asciilifeform: but proposed a hypothesis about whole class here

21:54:36 mircea_popescu: you don't get to pick the class.

21:54:54 mircea_popescu: the class at issue is the class which includes that "they" and that other "they" and also "us".

21:55:23 mircea_popescu: so you say "they came as locusts" ? so did we. ask the power rangers.

21:56:00 asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu's intel tells him that the power rangers see us as locust plague, i'll believe him; but from my chair i cannot see this.

21:56:11 asciilifeform: afaik they don't see us at all.

21:56:38 mircea_popescu: sure, and exact same could be argued (and has been argued, by people arguing from your same chari) about trhe evil capitalists which "do not even see the common people they vampirize"

21:56:39 mircea_popescu: herp.

21:59:14 *: asciilifeform doesn't object to elites per se (sorta like objecting to gravity) or to hereditary wealth (also rather like objecting to gravity) but arguing for the degeneracy of a particular set of people

21:59:25 asciilifeform: like hapsburgs. do we miss'em ?

21:59:32 asciilifeform: do we miss romanovs ?

22:00:08 mircea_popescu: you did not phrase it in those terms.

22:00:22 mircea_popescu: i don't think there's any

22:00:35 mircea_popescu: debate that teh peoples involved have little juice left in the ballsac.

22:00:46 asciilifeform: idk, i thought 'godspeed to fakers of vermeers' and 'good bilderberg is a dead bilderberg' was pretty clear..?

22:01:25 asciilifeform: and also idk, for an empty ballsack it's jizzing pretty well

22:01:47 asciilifeform: but i don't have mircea_popescu's intel. only My Arse (tm)

22:02:54 mircea_popescu: lol

22:03:17 mircea_popescu: well the entire contention was the strange notion that peasant who "finds" vermeer and "has always had it in family" should get to keep it.

22:03:40 mircea_popescu: perhaps by this notion same peasant who finds young dutchess and "always had her in family" should ALSO keep her

22:03:52 mircea_popescu: which is quite contradictory with all the soaps the peasant women watch, which all reduce to

22:03:57 asciilifeform: the explanation involving cheques/promissory notes was pretty neat

22:04:03 mircea_popescu: "pretty miss dutchess found by peasants - they didn't get to keep her"

22:04:04 asciilifeform: it makes the subject click in my head.

22:04:09 mircea_popescu: aok

22:04:51 asciilifeform: sorta like if a pauper finds a ring of keys - he doesn't get to own the house and car.

22:05:09 asciilifeform: (and this happens to be one of the reasons why many folks barf at bitcoin...)

22:05:37 mircea_popescu: technically money, in its circulatory form (ie, currency - to distinguish from the money as unit of account, for instance) was coins and bank-notes. coins are now disused, for entirely practical reasons ; and bank-notes come in those two flavours. moving from one to the other isn't THAT big a leap.

22:06:15 asciilifeform: aha. i think every kid in usa knows of the $1000 bill, for instance.

22:06:24 asciilifeform: (and perhaps even saw it in a museum)

22:06:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59300 @ 0.00070964 = 42.0817 BTC [-]

22:06:50 asciilifeform: but don't be caught with one on the street, yes.

22:07:44 asciilifeform: though now i'm hard-pressed to see how fdr's confiscation of gold is illegitimate under the framework outlined in this thread

22:07:45 mircea_popescu: for the record, it's not even clear moving from bearer to certified insturment is anti-liberty. for insmtance - hansa used the certifierd instrument greatly, because as a merchant, giving your son a plain "pay the bearer so much silver upon presentation of this note in such town" was merely an invitation to any highwayman on route to "please fuck this young man in the ass and here's the pay for your trouble"

22:08:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it did prevail in the justice of the time, did it not.

22:08:20 asciilifeform: so did the wickard v filburn

22:08:32 asciilifeform: which was really just 'fdr gets to do whatever the fuck he wants'

22:08:51 mircea_popescu: how do you propose to run a country ?

22:09:22 asciilifeform: fortunately it is not in my job description! but no shortage of historic examples to choose from..

22:09:29 mircea_popescu: and misunderstand.

22:09:35 asciilifeform: inescapably.

22:09:47 mircea_popescu: "how do you propose to make diff work ?" "above my pay grade chief, but here's a website with code snippets"

22:09:54 asciilifeform: but i don't recall qin zhihuangdi, or peter I, or alexander, prohibiting gold

22:10:14 mircea_popescu: orly.

22:10:20 mircea_popescu: i recall the roman REPUBLIC prohibiting gold

22:10:24 mircea_popescu: so much so they all had to bury it.

22:10:29 asciilifeform: unlike orwell, i don't see totalitarian prison state as automagically flowing from modern tech

22:10:40 mircea_popescu: nothing flows fropm tech except for more tech

22:10:50 mircea_popescu: that's the thing. technology is intellectually sterile.

22:10:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes. didn't say 'no one did this', just 'no shortage of sane examples'

22:11:07 asciilifeform: of folks who did not.

22:11:11 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your no shortage of "sane examples" refers to an abundance of "convenient retelliungs"

22:11:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes, i know fdr and co.'s explanation of why they 'had to' confiscate

22:11:57 mircea_popescu: tell it to me.

22:13:23 asciilifeform: crash of '29; massive capital misallocations plus natural disasters and misharvests; hordes of paupers demanding to be fed gratis, or failing that, given makework; fdr & co debase currency, make it happen.

22:13:58 asciilifeform: (yes, moar complicated, and could - and has - fill a bookcase. but this is the 1line version in my head)

22:14:25 mircea_popescu: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/US-%24100000-GC-1934-Fr-2413.jpg

22:14:26 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1LpuPFl )

22:14:38 asciilifeform: ^ aha, them too

22:14:50 asciilifeform: iirc that was the biggest

22:15:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do me a favour, read http://fraudsters.com/2011/de-pe-cind-eram-io-mai-tinar/ then we can continue this conversation

22:15:10 assbot: De pe cind eram io mai tinar on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LpuVgl )

22:15:21 mircea_popescu: (can you actually read stuff like that or should i provide a summary instead ?)

22:15:50 *: asciilifeform reads..

22:22:59 mircea_popescu: !up antonosika

22:23:15 antonosika: thx.

22:23:35 antonosika: !register 101F52A1B302AB64E82BC090E813577509B35230

22:23:35 assbot: Nick antonosika is already taken.

22:24:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think i get it..

22:24:37 mircea_popescu: "i am taking this from you because you're too stupid to have it". and they knew this is true, and SIGHED THEIR RELIEF.

22:24:40 mircea_popescu: that's what it is.

22:24:41 asciilifeform: aha.

22:24:49 asciilifeform: spiffy piece btw

22:25:01 asciilifeform: consider posting in other languages.

22:25:17 mircea_popescu: what, reddit doesn't have enough to spaz over ?

22:25:18 antonosika: If I do not have access to my backup key, and have a new comp - what proof would work to claim the long party as antonosika?

22:25:30 mircea_popescu: you need your key.

22:25:54 asciilifeform: 'I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question!' (tm) (r) (babbage)

22:26:09 antonosika: What if no one claims a future?

22:26:18 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: can we wire this to !babbage or the like, l0l

22:26:38 mircea_popescu: eh what, moar spam ?

22:26:57 asciilifeform: nah just tired of retyping it.

22:27:37 asciilifeform: antonosika: what does it mean, 'if no one claims a future' ?

22:27:53 punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248382 << what was wrong there?

22:27:53 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 16:18:02; asciilifeform: importantly, these need to be detached (own file) signatures. specifically ~not~ like this: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000150.html

22:28:05 phf: "found nick, has been in generation for years"

22:28:10 mircea_popescu: lol

22:28:13 asciilifeform: punkman: a .sig file should consist wholly of the detached sig

22:28:22 punkman: asciilifeform: and it wasn't?

22:28:23 asciilifeform: punkman: i should not have to munge it.

22:28:26 mircea_popescu: phf do you actually speak russian to the women ?

22:28:32 asciilifeform: punkman: correct, there were extraneous bytes in the linked example.

22:28:43 asciilifeform: that it, outside of the ----BEGIN .... ----END...

22:29:36 mats: ;;gpg info antonosika

22:29:36 gribble: User 'antonosika', with keyid 86AC5789F93ED2E7, fingerprint 71A1EC4E1B6C7DD853FD856C86AC5789F93ED2E7, and bitcoin address None, registered on Sat Aug 9 17:27:20 2014, last authed on Tue Aug 26 10:21:38 2014. http://b-otc.com/vg?nick=antonosika . Currently not authenticated.

22:29:44 punkman: asciilifeform: I don't see it

22:29:46 mats: no bitcoin address, think you're fucked, mate

22:29:47 antonosika: Thanks.

22:30:23 antonosika: I am antonosika fingerprint 71A1EC4E1B6C7DD853FD856C86AC5789F93ED2E7. I'll do anything to prove it. I'm looking forward to claim a future contract. But I do not have access to my secret key.

22:30:26 asciilifeform: punkman: actually you're right, i misread. assumed that the sig in the text is the sig in question

22:30:37 asciilifeform: punkman: but apparently jurov's turdatron accepts a standalong sig with no payload..

22:30:48 asciilifeform: this actually means that it is vulnerable to to shitflooding

22:30:49 punkman: was a feature I think

22:30:56 punkman: maybe because it already had the file

22:30:58 asciilifeform: unless it actually looks for a pre-existing payload and checks against it

22:31:03 asciilifeform: i do not know whether he does this.

22:31:43 asciilifeform: ;;later tell jurov what does your turdatron script do with attached sigs for which the message has no corresponding payload? looks through existing payloads ?

22:31:44 gribble: The operation succeeded.

22:33:36 punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248359 << I don't like this

22:33:36 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:59:15; asciilifeform: creating the antipatch is likely to require some manual manipulation.

22:33:59 asciilifeform: punkman: i did not say that i liked it.

22:34:09 asciilifeform: punkman: you are invited to suggest a plausible alternative.

22:34:12 mats: antonosika: this is related to X.EUR yes? see section 2.3b

22:34:42 asciilifeform: punkman: but if your alternative involves my signing of machine-generated code chimera, then ~i~ will not like it.

22:35:06 asciilifeform: anyone who wants to use 'git' or some other tardation knows where to find it.

22:35:18 antonosika: mats

22:35:27 mats: you can talk to davout, but i doubt he will deliver to someone that cannot prove control of that fingerprint

22:35:57 asciilifeform: antonosika: in what way are you presently distinguishable from an impostor ?

22:35:59 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i've gotten the diff of your and my genesis down to the timestamps

22:36:09 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: we zapped the timestamps

22:36:20 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: were you awake for that one ?

22:36:33 ben_vulpes: yessir, but i don't think i implemented it correctly in my vdiff

22:36:44 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see earlier thread today with mod6

22:36:50 antonosika: hypothetically, as long as there is only one suggestion for what account to make a payment to and the contract finiliz

22:37:01 asciilifeform: or trinque rather

22:37:02 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: didja post a genesis.vpatch without timestamps?

22:37:06 mircea_popescu: i'd seriously consider ending davout's contract if he pays without signature.

22:37:16 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248311 << lol

22:37:16 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:41:10; trinque: asciilifeform: I've produced a genesis.vpatch with your instructions which is only different from yours in terms of timestamps. expected result?

22:37:18 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248312 << read from here

22:37:18 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:41:34; trinque: I recall discussion of removing the timestamps, but didn't find a conclusion there

22:38:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if he paid out to a random keyless amoeba, that'd be reason to conclude that he was shot and replaced not even by hitler's agent but by a street dog

22:38:37 antonosika: asciilifeform: hypothetically - as long as there is only one suggestion, from an impostor or not, for what account to make a payment to AND the contract finalises, wouldn't a future delivery contract state that a payment should take place?

22:39:00 asciilifeform: antonosika: instead of making this argument, go claim the megatonne of gold sitting in zurich since ww2

22:39:18 mats: how does that make sense? you may merely be the first to make the claim, and the genuine article did not yet get around to taking delivery

22:39:21 asciilifeform: antonosika: after all, 'payment should take place' and 'only one suggestion', yours

22:39:48 asciilifeform: go grab the zurich gold, why pester the x.eur folks

22:40:00 asciilifeform: antonosika: you have equally valid claim here and in zurich...

22:40:52 ben_vulpes: huzzah!

22:41:09 mircea_popescu: antonosika no, that's not what it says. the contract creates no nude obligation to pay, which may be satisfied, and then a separate and ulterior consideration as to whom.

22:41:14 mircea_popescu: it starts with the whom.

22:42:00 mircea_popescu: abstent the whom, there is no obligation.

22:42:08 punkman: antonosika: did you buy X.EUR on coinbr?

22:42:12 antonosika: mircea_popescu: I hope you take a good ulterior consideration until then.

22:42:23 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: before you start recreating and signing 'orchestra' patches as well, also see the thread with mod6 where i explain that the paths need adjusting

22:42:23 mircea_popescu: i do what ?

22:43:04 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: (they gotta be homogeneous, as in following the same dir pattern as in 'genesis', to avoid unnecessary complexity in my proggy)

22:43:09 mats: [2014-08-12 03:34:05] → antonosika joined (uid31762@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dhamorrkxglbonxi)

22:43:12 antonosika: take the action that you deem plausible

22:43:18 mircea_popescu: ...

22:43:31 mats: poor guy does look like he may be the real thing. but, no private key, no futures :/

22:43:32 mircea_popescu: plausible can not be applied to action.

22:43:46 asciilifeform: mats: cold equations!

22:44:09 mats: an expensive lesson...

22:44:40 mircea_popescu: well, it's denominated in one euro increments, and i don't think he ever had outstanding enough to payu for even one year of college

22:44:43 asciilifeform: antonosika: http://thewhet.net/2012/shall-be-delivered << a less-expensive and altogether more diverting lesson

22:44:45 assbot: Shall be Delivered | The Whet ... ( http://bit.ly/1NtdDC1 )

22:44:45 mircea_popescu: so no, a very cheap lesson

22:48:08 antonosika: Thanks for the sympathy mats

22:48:33 antonosika: Still, there is plausibility, and https://twitter.com/antonosika

22:48:34 assbot: Anton Osika (@antonosika) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMPW4E )

22:49:04 mircea_popescu: nice pic

22:49:17 mircea_popescu: but you misspelled repetitive.

22:49:20 antonosika: <3

22:49:48 mircea_popescu: and what exactly do you suppose this proves ?

22:49:55 antonosika: fixed.

22:51:02 mats: utilitarian is also misspelled

22:51:03 antonosika: That the contract aims at the antonosika that you are talking to.

22:51:13 punkman: antonosika: was the lost key also registered at mpex?

22:51:38 mircea_popescu: lmao twitter now sucks uisers phone number as a "security" thijg too ?

22:52:00 mats: heh

22:52:03 mircea_popescu: anyway, i can't be arsed to, but it takes anyone five minutes to create a twitter accouint, link it to a dead website and say "dear mircea popoescu" on it

22:52:36 antonosika: for arguments sake, it says when it's registered.

22:52:58 mircea_popescu: so ?

22:53:25 mircea_popescu: a) twitter is a piece of shit web 2.0 item. they are probably hacked by 4 different teams as we speak and they don't even known

22:53:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30003 @ 0.0007021 = 21.0651 BTC [-]

22:53:50 mircea_popescu: b) you farm these and let them age, what's the big deal. 99% of all social media accounts are registered for the purpose of aging and then be used in a scam exactly like is contemplated here.

22:53:56 mircea_popescu: be it scamming google or anything else.

23:05:56 ag3nt_zer0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wYRGdD-xyo

23:05:57 assbot: Beck - Beck Reimagines David Bowie's "Sound and Vision" - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMRcop )

23:06:59 ag3nt_zer0: good for the soul

23:07:57 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248302 << they metaretaliated.

23:07:57 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 14:31:53; fluffypony: so 6 hours till North Korea says they'll retaliate

23:09:14 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248343 << we still want the graph thing opf this btw.

23:09:14 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:51:32; asciilifeform: this makes it possible to mechanically trace a 'patchchain'

23:09:32 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248349 << exactly the idea.

23:09:32 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 15:53:24; asciilifeform: 'v' will recursively walk the hashes in the release and apply the necessary vpatches to produce the tree.

23:22:10 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248374 << from my own pov it is very convenient, because it reduces to "sign the genesis and sign the meristems you are happy with in deployment"

23:22:10 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 16:05:39; asciilifeform: it is important that everyone who works on therealbitcoin sign 'genesis' and distribute said signature.

23:22:44 mircea_popescu: which is exactly a) what should be favoured (make it easy for the DEPLOYERS to sign, let the writers have to do all the hard work) and b) maximally economical.

23:22:55 asciilifeform: aha.

23:24:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the graph thing is quite essential (and if no one else does it, i will) because it exposes the actual dependency flow

23:24:33 mircea_popescu: maybe mike'd consider making it a subthing of his excellent wot graph

23:24:44 mircea_popescu: because really - they much belong together, and i expect synergy to be productive

23:25:00 mircea_popescu: (really, V chiefly exists because we put other thibngs together a while back, and we didn't at the time know yet this is how it'll come out.

23:25:12 mircea_popescu: and this exact scenario has played out a dozen or more times in the history of b-a

23:25:17 mircea_popescu: starting with its very birth)

23:25:48 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell mike_c hey, would you make the v graph alongside the wot graph ?

23:25:48 gribble: The operation succeeded.

23:27:17 punkman: no synergy plz, v will likely be used for other projects, without b-a wot, etc

23:27:39 mircea_popescu: other projects can go get fucked.

23:30:42 mircea_popescu: b-a is not a fucking gift "to humanity" as that "humanity" chooses to understand itself. b-a is a gift to humanity as defined by b-a.

23:31:01 mircea_popescu: humanity as it chooses to understand itself is the chief enemy, actually, and also the author of shit like the gnu diff. and everything else.

23:31:10 mircea_popescu: if it burns to the ground tomorrow it's about fifty million years too late.

23:31:45 punkman: sure, but why can't punkman use v for non-b-a project?

23:31:54 mircea_popescu: sure he can. go ahead.

23:32:16 mircea_popescu: but in being non-ba project, it misses out on all those things a ba project gets.

23:32:43 mircea_popescu: just like you can go make yourself a house on the prarie. it won't have running water. and all the whitegoods will work poorly fed from canister.

23:32:50 mircea_popescu: especially the dishwasher.

23:33:17 mircea_popescu: because the whitegoods are fucking made for a house with running water by people who have running water and intend to continue having it.

23:38:05 mircea_popescu: "There remains after today no alternative manner to deploy Bitcoin software, or indeed any software that is not a toy intended to be used by children playing, outside of this paradigm. May the switchover be bloody and painful in all the right places." is not some sort of a joke, and in no case can it be waved aside.

23:38:17 mircea_popescu: it is a central tenant of computer science, henceforth.

23:38:25 asciilifeform: tenet ?

23:38:30 mircea_popescu: right./

23:39:33 *: asciilifeform out to meatspace for a spell

23:43:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39800 @ 0.00070509 = 28.0626 BTC [+]

23:43:27 ben_vulpes: i'm rather enamored of how bitcoin defines computers now.

23:43:34 mircea_popescu: tell me about it

23:43:41 mircea_popescu: and i didn't even understand computers before.

23:43:56 ben_vulpes: i still don't.

23:44:10 mircea_popescu: no i mean i didn't really have a very good idea

23:45:12 ben_vulpes: it's a good and simple definition. "it must build bitcoin with V, it must sync a full chain verifying each block, and it must keep up with the main chain."

23:45:39 mircea_popescu: "that machine which, unassisted, ~" yeah

23:46:02 mircea_popescu: first time the equivalent of turing's definition was constructed in practice.

23:46:03 ben_vulpes: by the by, does anyone know the zfx individual?

23:46:16 mircea_popescu: no idea.

23:47:22 ben_vulpes: pm'd me on the topic of --parents vs. -p and os x

23:47:36 ben_vulpes: which, more idle experiment than an attempt to build a bitcoin on a macos box

23:47:41 ben_vulpes: ^^ asciilifeform

23:48:04 mircea_popescu: could have just voiced the guy

23:48:49 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248413 << ayup.

23:48:49 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 18:04:17; asciilifeform: is winblows next ?

23:48:51 phf: ben_vulpes: -p doesn't seem to do the same thing on os x as --parents does in gnu cp

23:49:13 mircea_popescu: "for fucks sake, is it necessary to invade every last god forsaken swamp ? is burma next ???"

23:49:14 mircea_popescu: ayup.

23:49:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45571 @ 0.00070509 = 32.1317 BTC [+]

23:49:49 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i was not reading messages at the time

23:49:50 mod6: oh this is pretty neat. so I got the mechanics tested & rebased for rel1 -- off of classic patches & genesis.vpatch to be sure. created a "rel1.vpatch" from that. then tested it, worked good on top of extracted genesis.vpatch. then did one of these numbers "cat genesis.vpatch >> rel1-fromair.vpatch ; cat rel1.vpatch >> rel1-fromair.vpatch ; patch -p1 < rel1-fromair.vpatch"

23:50:06 mircea_popescu: win.

23:50:35 mod6: it's a one shot, straight to rel1 source.

23:51:10 mod6: now just gotta do it for rel2-pre and clean it up a bit and i think i'll have something for you guys to look at.

23:51:17 mircea_popescu: having fun shane ?

23:51:25 mod6: Yes, Sir :]

23:52:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95700 @ 0.00071163 = 68.103 BTC [+] {4}

23:52:55 ben_vulpes: new theory: mpex price correlates with stans work on foundation client

23:54:02 mircea_popescu: lol

23:54:06 mircea_popescu: why not s.nsa for chrissakes

23:56:48 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248467 << i'd like more explanation of how the fuck this could occur.

23:56:48 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 18:26:16; asciilifeform: my present understanding is that the only solution to this is that i intend to negrate anyone who EVER does this.

23:56:53 mircea_popescu: for instance : collision only ?

23:57:15 mircea_popescu: should we need a salt, in the shape of a #sigline for all authors ? something like

23:57:26 mircea_popescu: #Made by MP, the 59675th item so made.

23:57:26 mircea_popescu: ?

23:59:13 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-08-2015#1248485 << well no it's not, since no time we what, rate both ?

23:59:13 assbot: Logged on 22-08-2015 18:32:55; asciilifeform: but it is a handy means of mechanically computing whom to negrate.