Transcript for 22-11-2016, 245 lines:
19:45:42 jurov: lmao "i cant login to pokemons!!!"
19:45:42 asciilifeform: jurov: have patience, this happens every time uss jimmy carter goes to the ocean floor to put in new nsa splice
19:47:08 punkman: worx here
19:47:17 jurov: lol there's no ocean floor 200 kilometers around. jimmy gotta grab a shovel
19:48:31 asciilifeform: jurov: there is ocean between your 200km and palo alto
19:48:39 asciilifeform: unless jurov moved again and forgot to say
19:49:45 jurov: Last i had my traffic routed thru murica, i did notice 100ms lags. Or they do quantum teleoprting nao?
19:52:32 asciilifeform: jurov: i thought link was re google
19:53:12 jurov: it is, google has regional outage. and took all kinds of stuff with it, incl. pokemons
20:08:28 jurov: now hit my isp too, it's scary how everyone depends on googleapis.com , google-analytics.com etc.
20:08:58 punkman: also everyone's email, even if on owned domain
20:09:30 jurov: mail can wait. unlike pokemons :D
20:09:44 punkman: pokemon is srs bzness
20:09:54 asciilifeform: whatever happened to it having regional mirrors of itself ?
20:11:04 jurov: it looks like dns snafu - these domains won't resolve
20:13:04 jurov: tried to ssh elsewhere, resolved google.com to 184.108.40.206, can't connect anyway
20:13:30 jurov: so, routing snafu
20:15:05 jurov: or rather fubar
20:15:51 asciilifeform: technically it would only be a 'fubar' if jurovlandia never sees google again
20:16:19 jurov: heh
20:22:06 punkman: also has pokemons
20:25:43 kakobrekla: how is anyone still here anyway
20:28:34 Framedragger: (nothing much in bgp news)
20:43:53 Framedragger: kakobrekla: which reminds me, are you still not planning to publish your perspective on bitbet finale / chinese konspiracy? i'm sure people are still interested. maybe folks already had made up their minds, and i'm just slow and/or indoctrinated or w/e. maybe it's not worth your effort. i don't know. people'd read it tho.
20:49:10 assbot: Logged on 26-08-2016 19:00:05; punkman: would probably be less work than repeating this thread N times
20:50:45 kakobrekla: afaik i have not been repeating it except if someone has a question re it, apart from referencing the chinese konspiraci which infact is now a meme re mps idiocy&co.
20:52:15 jurov: Framedragger: practically everything happened in this channel, you can read the logs, all happened in only few days
20:52:24 Framedragger: yes but you repeat the meme with a kind of distinctive fierceness, if i may say so. ultimately it's your call of course...
20:53:34 Framedragger: jurov: to be honest with you i couldn't grasp everything, e.g. when sturles joined in and it became more technical, and the latter is quite unavoidable here. i can try to re-read it i guess.
20:54:18 Framedragger: that is to say, the technical details seem to be relevant. re. pending zero-fee trasnactions in mempool, etc.
20:54:24 jurov: i think you'd better ask the details you don't understand instead of "kako pls publish"
20:54:36 Framedragger: fair enough. may do so later.
20:55:02 punkman: the tech details are trivial
20:55:21 punkman: "signed but I did not mean it"
20:56:07 kakobrekla: actually the disaster that happened was not just one mistake, but a series of bad decisions that he tried to cover up.
20:57:27 kakobrekla: going as far or as low as 'if its on qntra its the truth' argument.
20:57:37 kakobrekla: because nothing else works.
20:59:45 punkman: Framedragger: you might find this relevant http://fraudsters.com/2013/accounting-for-the-nonzero-asset-corporation-the-mpex-standard/
20:59:47 assbot: Accounting for the nonzero asset corporation. The MPEx standard. on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu.
20:59:56 Framedragger: thanks
21:01:34 punkman: " If its stash is owned by the shareholders but controlled by the management, an untenable situation occurs whereby should the management declare the stash lost the shareholders have no actual means to verify this fact, and for this reason will simply view any loss of stash as theft, regardless if it is theft or negligence. This puts the operator in the position of having to replenish the
21:01:34 punkman: stash of his own account (as either avenue brings in his strict liability), which then reduces the entire thing to the stash simply being owned by the management. Therefore, it makes no sense to pretend : the stash is owned by management and as such it has no place on the company balance sheet. "
21:03:17 kakobrekla: nah, 'kako was stupid to sign that contract ~ alf' (would not be surprised if it evals in his head to 'mp was great to write it') while a couple of weeks earlier 'mp gives you the contract you either sign or walk'.
21:04:05 kakobrekla: fanbois.
21:04:58 kakobrekla: of the dpb level.
21:07:45 Framedragger: punkman: oh, so when mp said he'd float bbet for that month, the lost coins were (according to this) supposed to be management's (=> mp's) responsibility?
21:07:51 Framedragger: am i reading this right?
21:08:19 Framedragger: i probably need to read the whole discussion about stash etc
21:09:20 asciilifeform: two d00dz went to sea in a wax paper boat. which, yes, eventually soaked, went down. what am i to say about this.
21:09:52 jurov: in my POV the crucial question was wtf mircea signed zerofee transaction. just look it up what assorted answers i've got :)
21:10:00 jurov: *from my pov
21:10:22 asciilifeform: one of the d00dz in the boat may or may not have dropped an awl.
21:10:33 asciilifeform: sooo it sank a little bit sooner.
21:10:34 asciilifeform: or not.
21:10:42 kakobrekla: that tx was also signed and broadcast while there was a spamattack on the network + v0.12 nodes NOT relaying 0 fee txes at all
21:11:05 kakobrekla: or 0.11 or whatever it was
21:11:10 Framedragger: asciilifeform: deliciously slippery-slopery. "it was all bullshit from the get-go. the rest is trivia"
21:11:38 asciilifeform: not necessarily trivia. but i gotta wonder wtf kakobrekla was thinking when he agreed to the '0 asset' thing.
21:11:50 asciilifeform: what if server had caught fire ? (it happens)
21:11:52 asciilifeform: who then pays.
21:12:08 jurov: asciilifeform: and s.nsa isn't 0ass?
21:12:12 asciilifeform: nope
21:12:17 asciilifeform: do you read the broadcasts jurov ?
21:12:44 jurov: aok
21:13:39 kakobrekla: asciilifeform mps behaviour years ago was different.
21:13:43 Framedragger: punkman: ahh. so you meant that according to that quote, that "loss" shouldn't have made it to the balance sheet.
21:13:59 punkman: Framedragger: I'm not saying that
21:14:11 kakobrekla: asciilifeform hence 'out of spec' in the rating.
21:14:27 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: this reads exactly like every conversation i ever had with a divorced bloke
21:14:34 asciilifeform: 'she was DIFFERENT' then!111
21:14:55 kakobrekla: well yea
21:15:22 kakobrekla: it also reads as a sane dood losing it.
21:15:34 kakobrekla: it also reads as a bunch of ascii noise.
21:15:40 kakobrekla: etc etc
21:16:33 punkman: Jim is treasurer of the company. He goes to pay an invoice of 17btc and sends 34btc by mistake. he bills to the company as "research" or "mistake" or whatever. Management can't come to agreement, they decide to liquidate company and go separate ways. Liquidator does not approve the extra 17btc.
21:16:54 asciilifeform: noise, noise, whatever you like. but subscribing to '0asset' crackpottery was a dumb thing to do then just as now, only difference is that it was working out then, through sheer dumb luck, and then -- suddenly not.
21:17:28 kakobrekla: hey, its sign or walk aint it?
21:17:49 asciilifeform: aha. what kept kakobrekla from walking ?
21:18:05 kakobrekla: probably stupidity.
21:18:26 kakobrekla: at the time i thought mp was onto something.
21:18:32 kakobrekla: apparently he is not.
21:18:59 kakobrekla: well, maybe he is onto, but he is not up to.
21:19:07 asciilifeform: kakobrekla perhaps now knows that he must discover own something to be onto.
21:19:44 kakobrekla: to impress alf?
21:19:56 asciilifeform: nah, no reason to even tell him about it.
21:20:14 Framedragger: punkman: who is liquidator here?
21:20:14 kakobrekla: cool, then all is well.
21:20:25 punkman: Framedragger: davout did the job
21:21:43 kakobrekla: yeah, i basically begged him to do it.
21:22:24 Framedragger: ok.
21:23:50 Framedragger: thanks.
21:26:58 Framedragger: it does appear that the whole thing's been sort of doomed, if such a disagreement can put the company into jeopardy. 'zero asset' / no security. but the zero asset agreement says those misspent 17btc should have been out of operator's pocket. so, uh.
21:27:20 Framedragger: so the jeopardy part should not have happened, as per agreement
21:27:24 Framedragger: maybe.
21:28:00 Framedragger: and it happened due to mp's decision to bill it company / to treat it as company's loss
21:28:23 punkman: then there's the mpex account closure. I'm not sure what the republicans think of that
21:28:40 asciilifeform: according to mp, sending the doublespend was not a stupid thing to do. according to kakobrekla -- it was. this was where i agreed with kakobrekla
21:28:54 Framedragger: mp banned kako's account for unclear reasons, or something like that
21:29:08 asciilifeform: Framedragger: fwiw he did discuss the reason.
21:29:12 punkman: "kako was a bitch, so he gets bitchslap"
21:29:16 Framedragger: asciilifeform: but it's more than that: mp decided that the spend is to be billed to company. it appears.
21:29:31 punkman: I think that was the general sediment
21:29:34 Framedragger: asciilifeform: unsigned message on qntra
21:29:48 Framedragger: unless misremembering
21:29:53 punkman: and while that went on, mpex also went private
21:29:56 asciilifeform: Framedragger: was the authenticity of said msg ever disputed by anyone ?
21:30:08 Framedragger: asciilifeform: in truth, iirc no.
21:30:48 asciilifeform: punkman: did you have an outstanding claim there which was not paid up ?
21:30:53 kakobrekla: "you didnt assert my hallucinations so therefore you mpex account is no longer"
21:31:03 kakobrekla: btw, how is mpex doing these days?
21:31:10 Framedragger: asciilifeform: still, case not covered by mpex gpg contract i would think.
21:31:13 kakobrekla: dont bother, i know the asnwer.
21:31:25 punkman: asciilifeform: : nope, I still have like 5k s.nsa shares though
21:31:27 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: last time i had acct there was for, what, a month, 3 yrs ago, so i have nfi
21:33:03 kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2016#1459748 < what fucking nonsens is this, some derp posts unsigned as alf username on somederppage.com and this is now prima facile posted by you ?
21:33:03 assbot: Logged on 22-11-2016 21:29:56; asciilifeform: Framedragger: was the authenticity of said msg ever disputed by anyone ?
21:33:06 kakobrekla: get the fuck out
21:33:57 asciilifeform: where was this 'it was fake' during the original shitstorm ?
21:34:09 kakobrekla: there is no need for that.
21:34:34 asciilifeform: no need because very easy to make up nonsense now about 'fake' which no one at the time bothered to dispute.
21:34:56 asciilifeform: ( kakobrekla could have very easily signed a 'this-here-hash'd-msg wasn't me, signed, kakobrekla' and i, for one, would have believed him)
21:35:05 punkman: I dun even know what you guys are talking about
21:35:28 kakobrekla: hm
21:35:37 kakobrekla: davouts blog seems offline
21:35:39 kakobrekla: cant link to it
21:36:22 kakobrekla: apparently the comment is lost in time like tears in the rain, or how that go
21:36:57 asciilifeform: i'ma ping him.
21:37:13 kakobrekla: he is here
21:37:33 Framedragger: punkman: there was an unsigned comment on davout's blog which (i don't recall) strongly asserted that mp is full of shit. i think it mentioned mpex of bitbet in a negative manner, to the point that mp found it to be libel
21:37:48 kakobrekla: meh
21:37:48 Framedragger: probably under bitbet liquidation post
21:37:51 kakobrekla: i basically said
21:38:02 Framedragger: or*
21:38:20 kakobrekla: that he should sign A and B inputs from which he sent the (double) payment from
21:38:31 kakobrekla: so we will have math proff he is a derp
21:38:34 kakobrekla: because now we just assume.
21:38:50 kakobrekla: s/inputs/outputs
21:39:04 Framedragger: ah right. that's more concrete.
21:39:27 asciilifeform: if the same insult had been directed against kakobrekla , and he, not mp, were in the position of 'judge, jury, executioner' do we have any reason to think that the story would have ended differently ?
21:40:14 Framedragger: asciilifeform: "imma terminate your mpex account with outstanding moneys"? i don't know, would *you*?
21:40:19 kakobrekla: dont ask me, i know the answer.
21:41:15 asciilifeform: for good or ill, i've had relatively little life experience with nonsensical 'paper boat' situations.
21:41:30 kakobrekla: anyway, since that day his gpg signature on contracts is worth 0.
21:41:51 kakobrekla: you may hallucinate value re it, but it aint there.
21:42:01 asciilifeform: (imho the greater part of 'good self control' is the skill of not getting into situations where you're tempted to stab your friends ~to begin with~)
21:43:55 kakobrekla: i think it was a marvelous end of bitcoin assets (not chan, but actual asset class in which is the reason this place was initially made)
21:44:44 kakobrekla: the last castle falls by going scamatronix
21:44:53 kakobrekla: *fireworks*
21:45:16 asciilifeform: kakobrekla building new one ?
21:45:24 kakobrekla: are you mad?
21:45:31 kakobrekla: havent we learend nothing?!
21:45:39 asciilifeform: or prefers living in hole in the ground.
21:45:53 kakobrekla: actually getting ready to travel soon
21:46:25 asciilifeform: neato
21:47:01 kakobrekla: will probably leave mid december (not sure yet, until im actually sitting on the plane)
21:47:29 kakobrekla: and will be gone for unknown period of time, maybe a few weeks or a few months, depends how i feel.
21:47:47 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: ever consider getting your own plane? i bet you could
21:48:09 punkman: kakobrekla: going out of europes?
21:48:25 asciilifeform: iirc davout recently perma-escaped from europe
21:48:27 kakobrekla: asciilifeform i have not
21:48:31 kakobrekla: punkman yes
21:48:45 kakobrekla: where did he go
21:48:58 jurov: mauritius
21:49:27 kakobrekla: they have internets there?
21:49:42 kakobrekla: anyway good for him
21:52:07 punkman: rural china looks fun
21:52:55 asciilifeform: i very much wish kakobrekla a good voyage.
21:53:14 kakobrekla: thanks!
21:53:45 asciilifeform: and, though imho the man has the good sense to not need this advice, i will remind anyway, to avoid usa and its colonies.
21:54:41 kakobrekla: so i should go north korea a :)
21:55:01 kakobrekla: dont need to travel for that, just join #t.
21:55:17 jurov: kakobrekla: tell asciilifeform to move to shenzhen. fun guaranteed.
21:55:24 kakobrekla: :D
21:55:37 *: asciilifeform has not yet been to cn.
21:58:51 kakobrekla: anyway lots of work to do before i can leave, so back to it.
21:59:15 asciilifeform: kakobrekla works?!
22:00:22 assbot: Logged on 22-11-2016 21:19:07; asciilifeform: kakobrekla perhaps now knows that he must discover own something to be onto.
22:00:37 asciilifeform: aite.
22:01:09 kakobrekla: yes, i can just step away from it but i dont want to.
22:47:01 funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-11-2016#1459810 <-- lol, so we are to learn of "the chinese mentality" by listening to some Ozzie dude's complaining monologue
22:51:30 funkenstein_: happy travel preparations to kakobrekla, i'll be moving to anhui province myself in about a week.
22:51:47 asciilifeform: iirc funkenstein_ is an old china hand ?
22:52:31 funkenstein_: i guess it will be my fifth visit, but i never spent more than two weeks
22:53:10 kakobrekla: thanks funkenstein_ , however leaving my mission control cockpit is actually hard work
22:53:33 funkenstein_: it looked like big red blob centered right on your mission control cockpit in earlier link
22:54:11 kakobrekla: he
22:54:13 kakobrekla: h
22:55:19 *: funkenstein_ watching unconfirmed txen in various mempools, >50k all day
23:00:35 kakobrekla: was it spam attack or just plain use?
23:00:49 funkenstein_: just plain use as far as i can tell
23:00:51 kakobrekla: ;;bc,convert eur
23:00:52 gribble: 1 BTC = 749.68 USD = 705.149008 eur
23:01:02 funkenstein_: fees going up
23:01:03 punkman: funkenstein_: I just liked the pictures
23:01:12 funkenstein_: i liked too, thanks punkman :)
23:01:16 kakobrekla: need moar mk cap to be more useful to get more mk capt to be more useful ...
23:01:29 asciilifeform: how does it make sense to attempt to distinguish 'plain use' from high quality spam ?
23:01:43 kakobrekla: high quality spam is ham.
23:02:04 funkenstein_: l0l hard to argue with that
23:07:21 punkman: /me will visit the Balkans in few weeks or January
23:10:54 kakobrekla: well
23:10:58 kakobrekla: that could mean anything
23:12:14 kakobrekla: you know how that joke goes, for montenegrins balkan starts in albania, for croatians it starts with montenegro, for slovenians it starts with croatia, for austrians it starts with slovenia ...
23:12:47 punkman: for us it starts over north border
23:13:00 kakobrekla: :)
23:13:18 kakobrekla: im sure albanians would disagree
23:14:44 punkman: first stop most likely Sofia, if anyone wants to have drinks
23:16:00 kakobrekla: are you going all the way up to slo?
23:17:54 punkman: I was thinking Belgrade if I find the time, might leave it for when I return with car
23:48:44 jurov: punkman when you go, ping me too
23:53:51 Framedragger: punkman: nice, enjoy
23:53:56 *: Framedragger enjoyed sarajevo
23:54:00 Framedragger: would recommend
23:56:17 kakobrekla: hm
23:56:37 kakobrekla: you are from Lithuania Framedragger ?
23:56:43 Framedragger: yeah :)
23:56:46 Framedragger: currently in glasgow, uk
23:56:54 kakobrekla: ewwww!
23:57:07 Framedragger: ikr!
23:57:29 punkman: I just hate winter anywhere norther than current location
23:57:48 punkman: Framedragger: you studying in UK?
23:57:48 Framedragger: ftr scottish people are super nice, in general. also, city is grungy and full of music n' stuff (though overhyped re. latter). weather is shite.
23:57:48 kakobrekla: kinda funny how eu folk sticks with b-a and us folk went to dark^H^H^H^Hscammer side
23:58:16 Framedragger: punkman: yes, + working
23:58:19 punkman: I think I have a cousin that moved to Glasgow
23:58:24 Framedragger: onice
23:58:47 asciilifeform: lulzily, iirc mircea_popescu lived for some years in glasgow.
23:58:54 Framedragger: edinburgh, iirc
23:58:55 punkman: he did?
23:59:14 Framedragger: that's all i/we know
23:59:38 punkman: don't recall reading anything about it on fraudsters
23:59:51 asciilifeform: he mentioned it long ago. but not iirc what he did there, etc.