Transcript for 24-05-2013, 1204 lines:
00:09:18 mircea_popescu: 2 weeks
00:09:18 dub: shipping next week guys
00:09:23 mircea_popescu: o no ?!
00:09:30 dub: forealz
00:09:31 mircea_popescu: wait. i thought they shipped already
00:09:39 KRS-1: I cant wait
00:09:50 dub: oh but you will
00:09:55 KRS-1: hahaha!
00:09:57 KRS-1: prolly..
00:10:05 KRS-1: what does the difficulty look like
00:10:32 KRS-1: if i get 70 ghash online initially..
00:10:53 KRS-1: sold all of my mining equipment a long time ago
00:11:12 Bugpowder: Going back to my old google doc from October calculating how much BTC I was going to make off GIGAMINING is kinda funny
00:11:24 Bugpowder: So many projections...
00:11:29 Namworld: lol
00:11:31 Bugpowder: So little to show for it
00:11:48 Namworld: Any projection which is equal or less than current income?
00:13:11 KRS-1: is it possible AM could fall on their face, thus bringing down the difficulty
00:13:27 KRS-1: could anything happen if they get too much of the total network speed?
00:13:32 Namworld: Would be funny...
00:13:44 Namworld: Fire or something...
00:13:49 KRS-1: government
00:14:34 Namworld: Bugpowder?
00:14:47 Namworld: How much do you get now out of your Gigamining?
00:16:10 KRS-1: this sounds like a shitty deal: ' indefinite contract, which costs $246. This runs for as long as the user wants, and provides 1 Ghash/sec of compute power. With this type of contract, 30 percent of the return is reinvested in additional computing power'
00:17:39 Namworld: 1 Ghash?
00:17:45 Namworld: Sounds good to me
00:18:32 Namworld: Where?
00:19:26 Bugpowder: lol
00:19:34 Bugpowder: I haven't claimed my shares yet
00:19:43 Bugpowder: not worth my time
00:19:48 Namworld: oh... how many did you have?
00:19:52 mircea_popescu: KRS-1 it's quite improbable.
00:20:06 mircea_popescu: the only thing is that both avalon and bitfury claim to have tons of chips right around the corner
00:20:14 Bugpowder: AM seems like they know what they are doing
00:20:26 Bugpowder: but come on... 2.5BTC / share?
00:20:33 Namworld: AM does know what they're doing, apparently
00:20:47 Bugpowder: I totally missed the boat on them
00:20:51 Namworld: Bugpowder, it's just that BTC stocks tend to take a value around 1%/week
00:21:06 Namworld: I should have bought 10 000 @ 0.1 BTC each back then
00:21:13 Bugpowder: Namworld: yeah but that rate is unsustainable
00:21:35 Namworld: Would only have paid 5000 USD or 1000 BTC
00:21:36 mircea_popescu: noob ventures take a value around 1% a week, last for 30 weeks tops
00:21:47 Namworld: Now I'd have 25000 BTC or 2.5 million
00:21:49 Namworld: Lol...
00:21:53 Bugpowder: Bitcoin securities investors seem to be unable to look more than 45 days in advance
00:22:12 Bugpowder: most S.DICE investors look backwards
00:22:20 Bugpowder: how much are we up this month
00:22:22 Namworld: If they can't do that, why would they pay 100x weekly revenue?
00:22:35 Bugpowder: although on a volume weighted basis that isn't true
00:22:40 Namworld: Like 400 BTC up for SDICE at latest news
00:23:00 Bugpowder: Namworld: yes I know. Just vocalizing the mindset.
00:23:30 Bugpowder: S.DICE at .002 looks pretty damn good to me.
00:23:58 mircea_popescu: Our chips consume about 3 - 3.5w per GH/s at the chip level
00:24:01 mircea_popescu: way to blow a spec lol
00:24:28 Namworld: Well unless S.DICE volume picks up, 0.002 seems ok, but not damn good
00:24:48 Namworld: I'd buy at 0.0015
00:24:51 Namworld: personally
00:25:29 Namworld: If they made a stable 5000 BTC each month
00:25:32 Bugpowder: Namworld: I'm forward looking
00:25:56 Namworld: That's 30 months to reach 0.0015 in dividends
00:26:01 Bugpowder: If you believe its truly a money tree scam where erik is recycling into it, then don't buy
00:26:14 Namworld: But they don't even earn that
00:26:27 Namworld: Nah, I don't think it's a scam.
00:26:35 mircea_popescu: i suspect the stability point for bitcoin securities is way way under 1% per year
00:26:38 mircea_popescu: probably more like .1%
00:26:56 Bugpowder: They sometimes earn 20,000 BTC /mo
00:26:58 mircea_popescu: course this strictly applies to securities.
00:27:06 mircea_popescu: insecurities are a different story.
00:27:08 Bugpowder: will they do that again? I dunnno
00:27:12 Namworld: Bugpowder, true
00:27:20 Namworld: But will that come back?
00:27:25 Bugpowder: but I would say its probably a 50/50 proposition
00:27:50 Bugpowder: that they have another comparably huge month again within the next 4 months.
00:28:01 Namworld: 0.1% per year? Too meager returns in my taste
00:28:14 Bugpowder: and then you get a 10% divided from that cost basis and a 250% gain in share price.
00:28:58 Bugpowder: S.DICE is a Buffet play
00:29:18 Bugpowder: maybe not him
00:29:19 Bugpowder: but you know
00:29:29 Bugpowder: probably undervalued based on its potential
00:29:34 Bugpowder: people panic and shit
00:29:56 mircea_popescu: moreover, the people atm involved are mostly kids trying to bootstrap themselves into financiers on a shoestring
00:30:10 mircea_popescu: once actual capital starts moving in it's a different story.
00:30:41 mircea_popescu: (and no, actual capital ain't measured in millions)
00:31:13 Namworld: Coinroll has made 1/4th of SD profit so far this month. SD really isn't lucky this month.
00:31:43 Bugpowder: yeah, but S.DICE luck should be totally irrelevant to the share price
00:31:44 Bugpowder: really
00:31:54 Namworld: volume is what matters
00:31:57 Bugpowder: yes
00:32:07 mircea_popescu: inasmuch as we know they can pay, yeah.
00:32:16 Bugpowder: true
00:32:19 mircea_popescu: Namworld what happens to coinroll if it hits a -5k ?
00:32:27 mircea_popescu: or w/e, a -heavy
00:32:42 Bugpowder: but in bitcoinland, S.DICE instant divided level drives the price strongly.
00:33:00 Bugpowder: Thats why I threw up some bids when they went down 2k.
00:33:46 Namworld: SD has had about ~90'000 BTC volume this month
00:37:05 Bugpowder: sup foglight
00:37:37 Bugpowder: you dump your AM yet?
00:42:52 foglight: not yet
00:43:22 Bugpowder: gamblin' man
00:43:39 Namworld: If I had kept my shares, I'd be selling like a madman
01:05:08 BitHub: why's that?
01:05:12 BitHub: AM tanking?
02:06:00 jborkl: i am selling puts and calls. starting tomorrow, i will be pricing better than the bot. pm me what mpsic and qty, i am still thinking anout pricing so that will be better than the bot
02:06:22 jborkl: about
03:02:35 dub: tanking up
03:05:08 ThickAsThieves: "Excessive wait trying to get lock on ASICMINER-PT."
03:05:21 ThickAsThieves: good old btctc
03:48:59 thestringpuller: this channel is quiet as shit today
03:53:13 KRS-1: shhh
04:04:12 _aknap3: thestringpuller: I wouldn't know, to compare
04:45:23 Chaaang-Noi: yeah over 2.5 wh0000
05:02:45 Chaaang-Noi: s.dice is still haning in there
05:05:43 foglight: good value at 0.002x ,imo
05:06:48 Chaaang-Noi: looking for .001 here
05:07:15 foglight: arent we all
05:08:30 foglight: maybe exciting things are around the corner. maybe they'll change the background to blue
05:08:42 Chaaang-Noi: some risks like eric knowning the secret daily password so he or a hacker could take that number and win all the money, us govt, people lose interest, .001 id buy a few but not many
05:08:47 truffles: the sky is blue
05:09:50 ll: secret password?
05:10:29 foglight: def some risks
05:10:35 foglight: lol
05:10:46 truffles: tin foil moment?
05:11:00 foglight: always in btcland
05:11:33 Chaaang-Noi: at anytime eric or a hacker could steall all the funds, it is a risk
05:11:46 Chaaang-Noi: not sayig it will happen
05:11:59 Chaaang-Noi: saying it could happen and it is likely enough to think about when buying the stock
05:12:13 Chaaang-Noi: 50% or more of these sort of thing go tits up cuz of "hacker"
05:12:45 foglight: truth
05:13:18 foglight: but i've made a lot off s.dice :D
05:13:44 foglight: in the past
05:20:17 bdk_kluge: I made a lot off Pirate in the past.
05:20:45 bdk_kluge: He just didn't give the hack excuse.
05:20:50 truffles: "Lindstrand has been urging companies to more aggressively pursue balloon-based wireless networks but says that no one has stepped up yet. "[Google X's Plan to Wire the World]
05:20:59 truffles: haha excuse
05:23:59 bdk_kluge: How much would one of these balloons cost? What's involved in maintenance? I'm lacking towers in my area, and sure can't justify the cost of erecting one just for my own thing...
05:25:00 bdk_kluge: May actually be very viable in rural, forested areas.
05:25:34 truffles: theyre for non western countries im guessing
05:25:37 bdk_kluge: I was thinking about just mounting big metal arms on hill-top trees, but that's kind of a sucky solution.
05:25:49 truffles: let me just link u the article..
05:26:10 KRS-1: wouldnt bad weather move the balloons all around
05:26:33 Chaaang-Noi: bdk_kluge> He just didn't give the hack excuse. he did not say anything much, we still dont know :/
05:27:02 bdk_kluge: Thanks.
05:28:25 truffles: yea confirms my theory wanting to take over the world
05:28:35 bdk_kluge: Haven't they pretty much, already?
05:30:01 truffles: no i still mainly use ymail
05:30:02 bdk_kluge: "But solar-powered balloons packed with a fuel cell and an onboard motor can remain stationary for up to five years and are “perfectly feasible.”" Idea died right there for me.
05:31:02 bdk_kluge: "it needs to be created by a small elite team with past airship experience" lol
05:31:23 truffles: elite teams ftw
05:32:22 Chaaang-Noi: lol
05:32:25 bdk_kluge: Disappointment.
05:36:48 bdk_kluge: Wonder if you could just chain the balloons to something physical. I never measured wattage draw of Ubiquiti radio.... wonder how reasonable this is.
05:37:37 bdk_kluge: If the chain were tight, it might not move around too much to be unreasonable?
05:40:19 truffles: u r srs eh
05:40:43 truffles: dont assist in world domination!
05:40:48 bdk_kluge: Well, it can be tested out with trash bags and tape, so Hell yeah!
05:41:45 ericmuyser: i really dont see what sdice can do to recover. stale mate
05:42:29 truffles: i can
05:55:02 Chaaang-Noi: massive buy and sell walls ??? at gox?
05:55:30 Chaaang-Noi: 25k coins to $10 either way, in fucking sane
05:55:54 bdk_kluge: Pfff - only $3m?
05:56:24 truffles: cyptomoney isnt real ldo
05:56:34 bdk_kluge: Doesn't the double-wall generally indicate someone wants to manipulate us upward with fake stability? :p
05:57:12 dub: np
05:57:18 dub: no*
05:57:59 Chaaang-Noi: i will also go with no
05:58:22 Chaaang-Noi: looks like they are trying to force stability, and im okay with that
05:58:59 bdk_kluge: Force stability for what?
05:59:14 Chaaang-Noi: stable price
05:59:21 Chaaang-Noi: so media quits bitching about the unstability
05:59:24 bdk_kluge: They don't believe stability will aid in adoption and mid-term increase price?
05:59:45 bdk_kluge: (adoption, and more importantly, confidence)
05:59:55 Chaaang-Noi: stability and increase in price are oppisets
06:00:18 Chaaang-Noi: but yes, mid term to long term you are right
06:00:23 ericmuyser: oppisets..
06:00:27 Chaaang-Noi: that is the thinking
06:00:44 Chaaang-Noi: <ericmuyser> oppisets.. yes sir
06:01:06 bdk_kluge: Or maybe it's a trap and I'm supposed to think the wall will enforce stability, when it's actually just readying for a massive dump!
06:01:09 bdk_kluge: :o
06:01:27 ericmuyser: or it's a wall and that's it
06:01:38 bdk_kluge: But there are TWO walls! You can't explain that!
06:02:16 bdk_kluge: Like fuckin' magnets...
06:03:25 Chaaang-Noi: im honestly shocked we are even over $100
06:03:55 ericmuyser: ya we survived a bubble without much dispair
06:04:10 ericmuyser: should be really happy about that
06:04:18 Chaaang-Noi: i am
06:04:29 Chaaang-Noi: but man, i have a shit load of powder to buy back in
06:04:40 Chaaang-Noi: i wanted 70$ btc
06:04:52 ericmuyser: ya so the wall is a bit closer on the up side this time by $5 and doubled, and highest it usually gets.. pretty cool
06:05:55 ericmuyser: market cap is almost 1.5 bil, sick
06:06:08 ericmuyser: and AM is 130 mil kinda stable..
06:06:10 ericmuyser: shock and awe
06:22:05 Chaaang-Noi: i heart crypto
06:29:55 qxzn: ericmuyser: what does AM stand for?
06:30:05 ericmuyser: asicminer
06:30:19 qxzn: ah ok
07:13:57 Chaaang-Noi: i see some btc auction
07:14:04 Chaaang-Noi: action* 127 wh000
07:16:45 Chaaang-Noi: wow wnt awat to walk dogs for 2 hours, almost nothing has pahhpened with asse3ts
07:26:00 bdk_kluge: It's 11p-3a in ImportantVille. What could possibly happen?
07:26:50 Chaaang-Noi: im used to see much more action
07:27:07 bdk_kluge: Well, go visit your gf, then
07:51:45 saulimus: you know what would be cool? a S&P500 type of chart for all stocks on an exchange. would give a nice overview of stocks' performance.. it's annoying to just look at numbers
07:52:03 saulimus: also, I'm lazy
07:52:15 bdk_kluge: Email CNBC.
07:56:02 Chaaang-Noi: bitcoin is listed at cnbc already
07:56:13 Chaaang-Noi: but not btc stocks :)
07:56:24 bdk_kluge: (yet!)
07:56:39 Chaaang-Noi: we would need a real exchange first
07:56:57 Chaaang-Noi: the best stock AM is not even listed on an exchange
07:57:01 Chaaang-Noi: self managed
08:19:24 davout: hello fine assets crowd
08:28:53 Namworld: Hello
08:29:03 bdk_kluge: Hello, world
08:31:51 Namworld: <?php echo 'Hello, world!'; ?>
08:35:11 parseval: inhies: Are you there?
08:52:06 inhies: parseval: i am now
08:52:09 inhies: still around? i just got home
08:53:59 inhies: ah yea
08:54:02 inhies: just saw your post in the thread
08:54:07 inhies: thank you, i'll have to dig through it
08:54:15 inhies: i think i know enough python to make sense of it :)
08:54:36 parseval: If you're doing an app for yourself then you only need to run it once to get the credentials, then you can just save them
08:55:09 parseval: No more of that copy/paste stuff.
08:56:07 parseval: Now I'm having a problem in the same area.. it's like the only thing that works are the oob credentials. No callbacks are being made..
08:56:51 parseval: I know they must be, somehow, because they work on btcjam, but it's not visiting my callback_url at all
08:57:16 inhies: ah yea
08:57:27 inhies: its not the verification that gets saved though is it?
08:57:33 inhies: i thoguht it was the credentials that ge made AFTER that
08:57:52 inhies: but i havent made it passed that yet with btctc and its been awhile since ive done oauth with anything else
08:59:56 parseval: Right, after you paste the verifier you will get another secret
09:01:04 inhies: yea, tahts what i saved before
09:01:07 inhies: but im getting invalid verifier
09:01:13 inhies: ill look over this code tomorrow, its bedtime
09:01:19 inhies: thank you for this
09:02:45 inhies: if i cant get this to work i'll show you my code (its Go though)
09:02:49 inhies: and maybe we can figure it out
09:07:06 parseval: Alright
09:07:10 parseval: Night
09:09:05 ThickAsThieves: (scientists identify cell of limb regeneration)
09:55:23 fiat500: hm, did AM stop solomining?
10:02:12 mircea_popescu: why is that ?
10:02:20 ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash
10:03:10 ThickAsThieves: they usually have some go offline when thet are adding or tweaking
10:03:15 ThickAsThieves: temporary
10:03:35 ThickAsThieves: ;;bc,stats
10:15:42 mircea_popescu: "I am willing to pay top dollar for someone to help me cosign a mortgage. I have no family I can ask. I have good credit and equity. I need someone in California with good credit and high income."
10:15:49 mircea_popescu: bwagagaga ok this is the best yet.
10:16:39 fiat500: sign me up!
10:17:27 bdk_kluge: I'd imagine there'd be quite a few drug dealers interested in creating such an offer.
10:19:59 mircea_popescu: as opposed to you know... simply bankrupt people.
11:05:31 dub: !ticker bc asicminer-pt
11:05:41 dub: !ticker bt asicminer-pt
13:10:18 cole_albon: ;;bc,24hprc
13:14:51 ThickAsThieves: "Could TAT shares just be pegged to 1/100 the price of PT shares? I think theres alot of arbitrage going on between the prices of the two causing extra market volatility ... It just seems illogical that at times 100 TAT shares can cost more than 1 PT share when they only pay 95% of the PT dividend."
13:14:58 ThickAsThieves: oh, the humanity
13:16:02 parseval: That would be hell to implement
13:16:14 ThickAsThieves: and totally retarded
13:16:34 parseval: "Sorry, you can only offer your shares up for this price"
13:16:42 ThickAsThieves: why would i peg my price? So i can lose?
13:16:44 ThickAsThieves: also
13:16:54 Diablo-D3: pegging makes no sense
13:16:54 ThickAsThieves: since when did arb cause volatility?
13:16:58 Diablo-D3: let arb bots do it
13:17:02 Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: they dont
13:17:03 Diablo-D3: they reduce it
13:17:07 ThickAsThieves: exactly
13:17:33 ThickAsThieves: dude just saw the best price somewhere else but couldnt afford a whole share
13:17:52 Diablo-D3: are you charging a fee for TAT?
13:17:59 ThickAsThieves: 5% of divs
13:18:05 Diablo-D3: you know what you should do?
13:18:05 ThickAsThieves: which is a pittance
13:18:10 ThickAsThieves: what
13:18:10 Diablo-D3: buy DMC shares and trade for the AM
13:18:14 ThickAsThieves: i try
13:18:22 ThickAsThieves: they are too spensive
13:18:39 Diablo-D3: yeah but you can sell them as TAT shares at whatever price you want
13:18:47 Diablo-D3: eventually the market will meet it
13:18:50 parseval: I saw that, it didn't even come up to a whole BTC for this div, at 9 btc paid out
13:19:16 Diablo-D3: which reminds me, I have another 14 BTC to pay out as div for DMC
13:19:18 parseval: It was like.. .45btc if my math is right
13:19:32 parseval: It's not a bad management fee at all
13:21:22 ThickAsThieves: unfortunately, many perceive the stock as being worth 5% less overall
13:21:35 ThickAsThieves: when it isn't as simple as that
13:26:12 Diablo-D3: lolwhat.
13:27:02 ThickAsThieves: i was referring to TAT.AM, not DMC
13:34:09 cole_albon: ;;bc,24hprc
13:36:03 KRS1: t'sup
13:36:52 fiat500: lol 129
13:37:21 davout: yo
13:37:32 davout: does anyone here have a link to the coinlab/mtgox contract
13:39:15 ThickAsThieves: ;google original contract between Coinlab and MtGox
13:39:19 ThickAsThieves: ;;google original contract between Coinlab and MtGox
13:39:43 ThickAsThieves: it's in the first link
13:42:33 topace: jborkl: you there? send me a pm when you can
13:43:40 davout: ThickAsThieves: thank you, googled, but didn't think about a simple CTRL+F on the reddit thread
13:45:44 ThickAsThieves: np
13:46:05 ThickAsThieves: i havent had my coffee yet, acting like a web-jerk
13:48:07 ThickAsThieves: TAT.AM has reached 2000 issued shares today :)
13:48:30 fiat500: only 3000 to go!
13:51:10 davout: ThickAsThieves: i'd rather deal with jerks than with morons
13:51:27 ThickAsThieves: technically less than 3000, as I still hold unissued shares
13:51:32 davout: and god knows we have enough idiots
13:51:37 ThickAsThieves: hehe
13:51:51 davout: I myself stand on the divinding line, one foot on each side
13:52:52 fiat500: hold on its gonna be a rough ride
13:52:59 fiat500: nobody knows where this whole bitcoin thing is going
13:53:26 Chaaang-Noi: to the moon?
13:53:56 fiat500: that may me both good and bad
13:54:06 Chaaang-Noi: no doubt
13:54:44 Chaaang-Noi: so fiat500 since you killed my jeep dream, what about this one?
13:55:44 Chaaang-Noi: oh are we at 130 already?
13:55:51 ThickAsThieves: ;;ticker
13:56:10 ThickAsThieves: ;;goxlag
13:56:41 ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash
13:56:41 Chaaang-Noi: ;;gribblelag
13:56:51 ThickAsThieves: ;;amhash
13:56:54 ThickAsThieves: :P
13:57:22 Chaaang-Noi: 22TH online or so i think
13:57:42 Chaaang-Noi: 129.99 but we haz a wall at 130
13:57:46 Chaaang-Noi: 4000 btc
13:59:35 fiat500: ;;asks 129.99
13:59:46 fiat500: oh lawd
14:00:18 Chaaang-Noi: ;;asks 130
14:00:30 kakobrekla: crazy chart
14:00:35 ThickAsThieves: why cant these speculators be reasonable
14:00:44 ThickAsThieves: like .50 a day
14:00:53 ThickAsThieves: that's plenty :)
14:01:19 fiat500: lmao
14:01:45 fiat500: there are a lot of unhappy buyers with a weighted average buy-in >160
14:02:34 fiat500: i think if we ever get close to that we're gonna see a massive crash again as they dump
14:02:56 ThickAsThieves: bubbles will be the way until we get more people in this game
14:03:15 Scrat: fiat500: nop, these people don't hold any significant amounts
14:03:34 Scrat: a small drop maybe
14:03:55 topace: i still dont get the people that bought from me at 250+
14:04:00 topace: i even told them it was a bad idea
14:04:06 topace: but they insisted i take their money
14:04:07 davout: topace: lol
14:04:09 topace: so i did
14:04:14 Scrat: little jimmy that bought at 230 because he saw it on msnbc didn't really buy a whole lot
14:04:17 fiat500: Scrat: u have numbers on that?
14:04:26 Scrat: fiat500: source: my ass
14:04:31 fiat500: i know people who bought 100+ btc at 160
14:04:36 davout: ouch
14:04:52 ThickAsThieves: i stopped paying new cash at $68
14:05:07 ThickAsThieves: seems i called it about right
14:05:12 davout: i stopped buying at 12EUR
14:05:15 davout: :-)
14:05:24 ThickAsThieves: nice
14:06:03 Scrat: you must be filthy rich davout
14:06:06 JohnGalt: bitcoin will go higher
14:06:18 davout: Scrat: believe me i'm not
14:07:17 davout: at current rates i can live comfortably a couple of years on my savings, but in my definition being filthy rich is like "i'll never work ever again, hmmm, which maserati should i get"
14:08:05 Scrat: that's like 10 million
14:08:08 Scrat: or 5
14:14:25 ThickAsThieves: count them eggs!
14:15:00 furuknap: I prefer chickens.
14:15:14 Chaaang-Noi: in my definition being filthy rich is like "i'll never work ever again, hmmm, which maserati should i get" :)
14:15:46 ThickAsThieves: i prefer cats
14:16:36 furuknap: In my definition, I've never worked a day in my life.
14:16:57 fiat500: cats is goods
14:17:09 fiat500: im bored
14:17:40 ThickAsThieves: make something
14:17:46 fiat500: ive done literally everythign i can do aside from day trade
14:18:06 fiat500: already up 50% from last week
14:18:14 ThickAsThieves: make a chan bot that shows nethash, 3-day estimate and fukll stats in one
14:18:19 ThickAsThieves: so i dont have to do this
14:18:21 ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash
14:18:26 ThickAsThieves: ;;estimate
14:18:29 ThickAsThieves: ;;bc,stats
14:18:32 fiat500: is there a bot for btct?
14:18:45 fiat500: i mean a pull bot
14:18:55 ThickAsThieves: BF needs a bot
14:19:10 ThickAsThieves: but kako and ukto are still arm wrestling
14:19:14 fiat500: lol
14:19:38 truffles: ] <ThickAsThieves> i prefer cats >>> me2
14:19:55 Chaaang-Noi: bf has a bot it is in #bitfunder
14:20:18 ThickAsThieves: i want it in here
14:20:23 ThickAsThieves: more channel spam!
14:20:35 Chaaang-Noi: spam spam soam!
14:20:36 ThickAsThieves: i also want a BTCTC chan
14:21:00 truffles: who actually joins chat rooms just to chat anyways
14:21:26 ThickAsThieves: cyberers
14:21:39 truffles: a/s/l?
14:21:50 truffles: : D
14:21:54 Scrat: 16/f/fl
14:22:10 truffles: haha
14:28:22 parseval: I'd join a btctc channel
14:44:43 truffles: sooo many predators out there
14:50:13 deadweasel: I'm a bitcoin predator
14:50:28 deadweasel: but I've never seen a bitcoin in the wild soo, i'm not long for this world.
14:50:41 deadweasel: my only regret, is that I have bonitis.
14:50:51 truffles: some of these guys are good looking, i dont get it
14:51:22 deadweasel: it's a confidence matter, low confidence means they go for low-hanging 'fruit'
14:51:35 deadweasel: i go for mediocre hanging fruit.
14:51:46 deadweasel: working my way up to top of the tree fruit.
14:51:48 truffles: me2 : D
14:52:08 deadweasel: although I'm discovering the more confidence I have the less I want a relationship.
14:52:13 truffles: i guess ppl would call it submissive
14:52:26 truffles: oh u wanna be a player?
14:52:35 Chaaang-Noi: ;;asks 130
14:52:46 deadweasel: truffles, no way.
14:52:53 Chaaang-Noi: wall go bigger?
14:53:17 deadweasel: ;;bids 128.5
14:53:21 truffles: what is it then deadweasel
14:53:34 deadweasel: what is what?
14:53:53 truffles: or did u want to be asexual
14:54:37 deadweasel: no no, just don't want to be with dramatic low-confidence people, it sucks the energy out of me. it's a waste of time. I can't help them and they will only drag me down.
14:54:57 truffles: wow lol
14:55:10 truffles: well d ont go for the insecure gals ldo
14:55:11 deadweasel: well, it's true.
14:55:59 truffles: imo some guys go for the dumb or insecure girls cuz it makes em feel superior..
14:58:01 Diablo-D3: meh
14:58:05 Diablo-D3: I go for the smart ones
14:58:09 Chaaang-Noi: just east to get what tehy want quickly
14:58:13 Diablo-D3: I love a smart chick
14:58:14 Chaaang-Noi: easy
15:00:05 Chaaang-Noi: Great Panther Silver Stock price: $0.78 Market Cap:$108M
15:00:05 Chaaang-Noi: ASICMiner Stock Price: BTC2.5($320) Market Cap:$128M
15:00:29 deadweasel: truffles, they go for dumb/insecure yes, but only because it's easy. The only feeling they get out of it is a blow job.
15:00:39 deadweasel: I don't think superior is the correct word for it.
15:00:40 Chaaang-Noi: :)
15:00:46 Chaaang-Noi: sometime a bj is all we want
15:00:59 truffles: simple creatures
15:01:06 deadweasel: most of the time, actually. hell, I'll settle for a handy.
15:01:21 deadweasel: i don't always have the energy for sexathons
15:01:47 truffles: go workout then
15:01:51 deadweasel: women are simple creatures too. they just want a good rogering.
15:02:16 deadweasel: truffles, that is why I don't have the energy. I did 4 hours of intense training last night, my knees barely support me today.
15:02:35 truffles: ure not a young guy eh, rogering lol
15:03:20 deadweasel: or I like colorful terms.
15:03:39 truffles: workout less ldo
15:03:47 deadweasel: would you prefer I said "they jsut want their hairy axe wound pounded"?
15:03:57 deadweasel: would that make me young again?
15:04:03 truffles: lol no
15:04:09 deadweasel: because I'm all for returning to my youth
15:04:12 truffles: who says that lol
15:04:13 deadweasel: I didn't get enough sex in my teens
15:04:25 deadweasel: fucking catholics
15:04:44 truffles: i was lucky to avoid it in my teens also
15:04:50 truffles: sex is overrated
15:04:52 deadweasel: lucky?!?!?!/
15:04:57 deadweasel: yes, overrated.
15:05:06 deadweasel: but it was not in my teens
15:05:09 truffles: stds are out there dude
15:05:34 deadweasel: what's an STD?
15:05:38 deadweasel: ;)
15:05:49 truffles: theyre mutating as we speak
15:06:21 deadweasel: i know, I'm more worried about resistant pathogens and genetic disorder being activated my modern chemicals/molecules
15:06:49 deadweasel: that and my bitcoins.
15:07:11 truffles: bitcoins are a fad though so no worries there : p
15:08:31 deadweasel: lol, no doubt. as long as I can keep taking my cut, I don't care. it may not be BTC that is the future currecny, but one of it's cousins.
15:08:48 deadweasel: i realize that. nobody can know for sure.
15:09:04 truffles: yea
15:09:22 deadweasel: frankly, I wonder where the development will come from. What if the 'devs' all go to a conference and their bus collapses through the I-5 bridge?
15:09:45 truffles: theyre all on same bus??
15:09:59 deadweasel: sure, the dev bus. they totally have those.
15:10:00 truffles: reminds me of Russian hockey team that all died on plane crash
15:10:07 deadweasel: oh ya, that's was horrible.
15:10:38 deadweasel: Sea of Ostohk had an 8.2 magnitude earthquake, possiblity for tsunami in pacific rim.
15:11:23 truffles: dunno where that is
15:13:36 deadweasel: well I don't know where you are and I still talk to you. ;P
15:13:54 joecool: deadweasel: it's a deep one though
15:14:00 joecool: deadweasel: would not be too concerned
15:14:14 deadweasel: ah, I didn't know joecool
15:14:42 joecool: yeah it's ~610KM under the ground
15:15:14 joecool: the 5.7 in cali was probably more noticable at only 11KM of depth
15:15:43 truffles: deadweasel :)
15:16:24 truffles: no quakes here so it doesnt matter rly
15:18:14 joecool: the only one i felt was the one in VA a couple years ago
15:18:25 joecool: it traveled pretty far on the east coast
15:25:38 deadweasel: I've only ever been in a 4.2 here in maine last year. I thought tanks were surrounding the building.
15:25:43 deadweasel: they were not
15:33:33 error4733: hello btcworld
15:33:41 error4733: ;;bids 0
15:33:45 error4733: ;asks 11111111111111111
15:33:50 error4733: ;;asks 111111111111111
15:37:55 truffles: ;;ticker
15:47:42 ThickAsThieves: whats your interpretation?
15:52:18 truffles: u find 1/4 can of alcohol, do u a) chug or b) throw out
15:53:39 joecool: could have a cigarette hiding in there
15:55:20 ThickAsThieves: 20somethings problems
15:55:32 truffles: lol
15:58:14 error4733: TAT i have no clue :D
16:00:25 error4733: first time i see the 2 line dropping in the same way, i'm confused so i sold half of my btc and bought btc with the money ! make sens no ?
16:03:39 ThickAsThieves: selling half might make sense
16:03:50 ThickAsThieves: but buying btc right after is confusing me
16:04:10 error4733: just kidding sorry
16:07:30 error4733: ;;asks 1111111111111111111111
16:08:49 ThickAsThieves: ;;ticker
16:22:23 Chaaang-Noi: go cog!
16:29:19 Chaaang-Noi: ;;asks 130
16:32:22 furuknap: Chaang, help me understand Cognitive a bit, if you please...
16:32:39 furuknap: I understand they have stuff on order and favorably so.
16:33:05 furuknap: I know what you've aid about the guy running the operation, and let's assume I trust your judgement on that.
16:33:50 Chaaang-Noi: i like this double wall
16:34:05 WILLdude: Hello
16:34:16 furuknap: What is it about the company in terms of revenue that could cause it to rise in value? It has not yielded any significant dividends so far and even with new equipment, it still would only compete with any other mining operation that gets the same equipment.
16:34:44 Chaaang-Noi: furuknap he is a long time mining op that has fpga and gpus, but is also now doing asics both bfl and avalon, its a good hedge if you hold asic miner
16:34:46 furuknap: I'm not saying it's good or bad, just trying to understand.
16:35:05 Chaaang-Noi: its only good if his bfl and or avalon stuff works out
16:35:19 Chaaang-Noi: if avalon and bfl fail forever then well AM is it...
16:35:37 Chaaang-Noi: but if you hold AM and worry about other asics then its a good option to hold some
16:35:42 furuknap: But let's assume it works out, both of them to be optimistic. What makes this asset different from other assets that also buys BFL and Avalons?
16:36:06 Chaaang-Noi: i dont know of, or trust any of the other assets
16:36:18 Chaaang-Noi: but cognitive does have very early orders at bfl
16:36:42 Chaaang-Noi: ;;asks 130
16:36:56 furuknap: Sure, which is an advantage short-term until BFL/Avalon/KnC/Whoever ships en masse.
16:37:07 Chaaang-Noi: yes
16:37:19 furuknap: So it's a trust thing, not a fundamental valuation. That's fine, I understand. Thanks for your input :-)
16:37:21 Chaaang-Noi: and by that time we will ahve piles of coin and be able to buy more
16:37:28 Chaaang-Noi: his electric is low and he knows what he is doing
16:37:42 Chaaang-Noi: im not attacking the others
16:37:56 Chaaang-Noi: i just dont want to get fucked over any more...
16:38:11 furuknap: Neither am I, I'm just trying to learn about the assets and what brings people to go in any direction.
16:38:28 Chaaang-Noi: i worked with the guy for over 2 eyars
16:38:36 Chaaang-Noi: thats why i got into asic miner, i knew him from befoerw
16:38:49 Chaaang-Noi: 130 gone????
16:38:53 Chaaang-Noi: fuck me
16:39:02 Chaaang-Noi: ;;asks 130
16:39:12 Chaaang-Noi: ????
16:39:15 Chaaang-Noi: ;;ticker
16:39:25 Chaaang-Noi: gribble is full of fail
16:39:28 furuknap: ??
16:39:33 Chaaang-Noi: ticker is over 130 but 2000 share at 130?
16:39:40 furuknap: Clark moody shows trades >130...
16:39:54 Chaaang-Noi: gribble just trollin
16:40:26 furuknap: There should be a ;;slap command.
16:40:46 WILLdude: I thought there was
16:40:53 WILLdude: ;;slap furuknap
16:40:55 Chaaang-Noi: well fuck me, here we are at 130.. and i thought we would be at 70
16:40:58 WILLdude: ;;slap furuknap
16:41:01 WILLdude: ;;slap furuknap
16:41:11 Chaaang-Noi: ;;slap gribble
16:41:17 WILLdude: ;;slap his genitals
16:41:24 Chaaang-Noi: lol
16:44:38 kakobrekla: fuckin kinds
16:44:46 kakobrekla: !r WILLdude
16:44:54 kakobrekla: see that.
16:48:27 Chaaang-Noi: 132.15 or so is the next resistance
16:50:04 furuknap: All EMAs still pointing upwards. 132 isn't going to be much of an issue.
16:50:35 fiat500: EMAs by definition cannot predict the future
16:51:24 truffles: historical prices dont predict future prices..
16:51:27 Chaaang-Noi: im not sure anything can
16:51:53 Chaaang-Noi: we all kow at any time satoshi could sell 1,000,000 btc at market price
16:52:18 Chaaang-Noi: are that buffet could market buy 100,000,000 $
16:53:36 Chaaang-Noi: we hit 132 already
16:54:56 ThickAsThieves: ;;ticker
16:55:05 furuknap: A lot of people still trade on EMAs, as do bots. It's no clear prediction, but an indication. The world could end tomorrow, you don't stay away from trading just because of that.
16:55:20 ThickAsThieves: this will fizzle before day's end
16:55:29 ThickAsThieves: we'll be back at 128-129
16:56:00 Chaaang-Noi: fridays for some reason have been the big days the last few weeks
16:56:49 ThickAsThieves: sure buyt we were at 123 two days ago
16:56:57 ThickAsThieves: speculators gon gpeculate
16:57:31 ThickAsThieves: either way, i'm happy to see an uptrend
17:00:04 Chaaang-Noi: up is better than down :)
17:00:26 ThickAsThieves: assuming youre holding coins, not cash
17:01:27 Chaaang-Noi: well, i gave up on my rebuy
17:01:33 Chaaang-Noi: im holding some cash as you know
17:02:03 Chaaang-Noi: even though the price is up, there is no depth, selling 1 million usd still gets less than 127 like it was 2 hours ago
17:02:15 Chaaang-Noi: bids are not getting set, its odd
17:02:42 Chaaang-Noi: we broke 132, but hit that resistance
17:03:10 bitesak: ;;ticker
17:07:26 bitesak: ;;next
17:11:40 bitesak: nice having the log.bitcoin-assets.com
17:13:24 Chaaang-Noi: bids are going down...
17:13:41 Chaaang-Noi: crazy
17:14:43 bitesak: it is mesmerizing
17:15:51 bitesak: ;;lag
17:15:54 Chaaang-Noi: jap stock market had a 12% one day fall?
17:16:08 bitesak: ;;goxlag
17:28:18 benkay: ;;ticker
17:28:49 benkay: goodness.
17:31:01 Chaaang-Noi: you guys know rg is alive and well in the #litecoin chan?
17:31:14 Chaaang-Noi: i thought he was long gone
17:32:18 kakobrekla: he is too good for btc Chaaang-Noi
17:34:04 truffles: theres a guy with alias rg that talks a lot in -otc?
17:37:28 deadweasel: i can't fucking do any work today...
17:37:42 truffles: whys that
17:37:51 deadweasel: motivatoni is at a 0
17:37:57 truffles: haha
17:38:04 truffles: maybe Esha can recharge ur batteries
17:38:07 Chaaang-Noi: i thought rg scammed or failed with bitvps or whaever
17:38:13 Chaaang-Noi: i dont know the story i guess'
17:38:32 truffles: link above deadweasel
17:39:03 deadweasel: while i'm not working at the office, I'm also not watching youtube. much easier to pretend work in terminal window
17:40:05 deadweasel: supercaps
17:40:12 deadweasel: can't wait til that goes mainstream
17:40:23 truffles: like 10 years?
17:40:28 deadweasel: dunno.
17:40:34 deadweasel: it means my railgun is not far off.
17:40:44 truffles: still waiting on this invention that protects babies in cars
17:41:10 deadweasel: www.youtube.com/watch?v=y54aLcC3G74
17:41:13 truffles: some rotating pouch ...¨
17:41:49 deadweasel: you know what protects babies in cars? the structural cage and the driver.
17:42:19 deadweasel: car seat just prevents broken babies from seatbelts/bouncing baby brains.
17:44:04 deadweasel: nope, but I'll watch later, thanks aknap3
17:44:59 truffles: pretty genius invention by liberkowski
17:45:11 truffles: why do u want a rail gun?
17:45:20 deadweasel: i don't know
17:45:24 deadweasel: quake 2
17:45:26 deadweasel: is a big part of it
17:45:57 deadweasel: old desires with no real practicality.
17:46:05 truffles: if it helps with a zombi apocalypse sure
17:46:30 deadweasel: nope, not unless I had 50MW of solar power generation and shit ton of supercaps
17:49:22 truffles: ive lacked mojo past 5 days also
17:50:09 truffles: i think im going to have to watch some shark tank to help heh
17:55:49 mircea_popescu: this is going well...
17:57:30 ThickAsThieves: I'm surprised that bet was allowed
17:57:35 mircea_popescu: why ?
17:57:46 ThickAsThieves: because it's way less cool than my bet
17:57:54 mircea_popescu: lol which ?
17:58:07 ThickAsThieves: Schrödinger's BitBet
17:58:07 ThickAsThieves: This bet will have more total BTC bet on Yes than on No before it closes.
17:58:19 qxzn: lol
17:58:26 qxzn: it's like satoshidice, basically
17:58:55 ThickAsThieves: now that's a bet
17:58:58 mircea_popescu: qxzn something like that
18:00:00 ThickAsThieves: bet like that could have some great earnings potential too
18:00:05 ThickAsThieves: :)
18:01:05 mircea_popescu: sounds more like a dollar auction.
18:02:36 deadweasel: it does
18:02:49 deadweasel: you'd make a lot in bets that were sent just past closing too
18:03:01 deadweasel: trying to get in at the last second with a big bet
18:03:04 ThickAsThieves: yep
18:03:31 ThickAsThieves: could end in some tears
18:03:35 deadweasel: many
18:03:42 mircea_popescu: yeah, too bfl-ish i think
18:03:53 mircea_popescu: this is just a clean cut cointoss
18:04:05 ThickAsThieves: yeah it was rejected a while back, but a man can dream
18:04:17 mircea_popescu: did you zeroconf it ?
18:04:43 ThickAsThieves: what's a zeroconf?
18:04:53 mircea_popescu: you can send btc in as you make the bet
18:04:56 ThickAsThieves: oh
18:04:59 ThickAsThieves: probly not
18:05:02 ThickAsThieves: but i could
18:05:04 Chaaang-Noi: ;;asks 135
18:05:07 ThickAsThieves: if that's all it takes
18:05:09 deadweasel: sorta seals the deal, makes it more likely to get posted
18:05:18 mircea_popescu: why would you.
18:05:29 Scrat: i am in that bitbet
18:05:34 Scrat: ;;bids 0
18:05:45 mircea_popescu: Scrat which one ?
18:05:51 deadweasel: Scrat, odd or even?
18:05:56 Scrat: small one ofc
18:06:20 Scrat: I won't say!
18:06:27 mircea_popescu: kik
18:06:33 ThickAsThieves: scrat is a math genie
18:06:42 ThickAsThieves: i bet he sorted that one has higher odds
18:08:02 ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash
18:08:15 ThickAsThieves: ;;bc,stats
18:09:08 qxzn: the only thing that interests me about the difficulty bet is arbing it when it strays from 505
18:09:12 qxzn: 50-50
18:09:42 qxzn: does bitbet have any decent kind of api?
18:10:10 mircea_popescu: qxzn what specifically ?
18:10:33 ThickAsThieves: not like you could ensure your bet doesnt set it off balance
18:12:43 qxzn: mircea_popescu I haven't looked closely at bitbet yet, but like getting the current odds and the sizes behind the odds, I suppose.
18:12:59 qxzn: ThickAsThieves really that's not calculatable with published information?
18:13:41 mircea_popescu: i think you'll have to talk to kakobrekla about that.
18:13:45 mircea_popescu: shouldn't be too hard.
18:14:10 mircea_popescu: the depositing part works by design in the sense that once you get an addy you can use it for as long as the bet exists
18:15:15 qxzn: mircea_popescu It's funny, I actually tend not to encourage sites to make apis as I know I can screen-scrape and have less competition :P
18:15:44 kakobrekla: uh i hope you use some html dom instead
18:15:51 kakobrekla: of screen scrape
18:15:56 mircea_popescu: yeah i was gonna say, it's pretty much in the html dom
18:16:03 qxzn: kokbrekla yeah that's what I mean
18:16:11 qxzn: indeed
18:17:06 ThickAsThieves: if i had a site like that I'd fuck with the html daily to mess with botters
18:17:21 mircea_popescu: why ?
18:17:40 ThickAsThieves: i think bitting is bad for relatively small markets
18:18:00 mircea_popescu: i don't see the problem. people setting their own bots to marketmake provides liquidity.
18:18:03 ThickAsThieves: potentially zerosum liquidity, adn deters humans
18:18:21 ThickAsThieves: everything that is bitcoin, needs more humans
18:18:27 mircea_popescu: why'd deter humans ? recall, this is parimutuel. humans knowing their bets will be covered is encouraging
18:18:30 ThickAsThieves: that is what benefits it most
18:18:59 ThickAsThieves: because a human will give up fighting a penny bot
18:19:10 ThickAsThieves: and get frustrated
18:19:12 ThickAsThieves: and trade less
18:19:54 mircea_popescu: how would a human fight a penny bettor exactly ?
18:20:06 mircea_popescu: the human either has a side or doesn't. if he doesn't he;s not betting anyway.
18:20:19 ThickAsThieves: i'm a heavy trader
18:20:21 qxzn: parimutuel betting is over my head. no wonder mircea_popescu likes it, it's complicated like options.
18:20:22 ThickAsThieves: and it deters me
18:20:25 mircea_popescu: if he does he's glad to hear somebody will cover the odds.
18:21:02 mircea_popescu: lol
18:21:11 qxzn: mircea_popescu this is a losing argument
18:21:11 ThickAsThieves: it would be hard, but I wish there was a way to study it
18:21:17 ThickAsThieves: on something like BTCTC
18:21:19 qxzn: people "just don't like" bots
18:21:25 qxzn: it's not rational
18:21:41 qxzn: except when they are capable of creating their own, of course
18:21:43 mircea_popescu: ok let's go into a little detail.
18:21:43 qxzn: then they like them
18:21:49 mircea_popescu: suppose this bet, with a clear 50-50 odds
18:21:54 mircea_popescu: suppose somebody wants to bet 5 btc
18:22:02 mircea_popescu: if he does and it goes to 18-13 and stays there
18:22:08 mircea_popescu: our guy gets worse than 50-50 odds
18:22:19 mircea_popescu: if he knows a bot will cover to 18-18 then he knows he gets fair odds
18:22:21 mircea_popescu: bots = good news.
18:22:34 ThickAsThieves: i was referring to stock exchanges
18:22:39 ThickAsThieves: not a one-off bet
18:22:41 mircea_popescu: well that's a diff story.
18:23:16 ThickAsThieves: indeed
18:23:23 qxzn: if you are trying to provide liquidity on a stock exchange without a computer, you're going to be frustrated
18:23:23 ThickAsThieves: i mixed it in, apologies
18:23:42 qxzn: but if you are trying to take liquidity, you might be glad there are bots
18:23:46 qxzn: tighter spreads
18:24:06 qxzn: (by "without a computer" i mean "without a bot")
18:24:38 ThickAsThieves: i manage,
18:24:44 ThickAsThieves: but yes it frustrates me
18:25:22 ThickAsThieves: and i imagine it frustrates the newly initiated
18:25:32 ThickAsThieves: which are very valuable to these exchanges
18:25:51 qxzn: eh, I'm skeptical of the valuable of having a bunch of novice traders bouncing around these exchanges
18:25:58 qxzn: the value*
18:26:08 ThickAsThieves: an exchange doesn tcare what kind of experience you have
18:26:12 ThickAsThieves: just your volume
18:26:47 mircea_popescu: <qxzn> eh, I'm skeptical of the valuable of having a bunch of novice traders bouncing around these exchanges <<
18:26:53 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves the exchange does care.
18:27:02 mircea_popescu: the thing that doesn't care is a bucket shop.
18:27:18 ThickAsThieves: can you not picture an envorinment where people say "I dont trade on X, too many f'n bots"
18:27:56 jborkl: I anyone is interested, O.USD.P125N < I will sell these puts starting tomorrow = bot current price * .75 = my price
18:28:13 jborkl: If
18:30:09 topace: !ticker h asicm
18:30:19 qxzn: There are a couple reasons to trade. 1: you are investing. In that case, you don't care about bots. 2: you are arbing/providing liquidity. in that case, you should have bots because it's more efficient in terms of human labor. 3: you are speculating / doing "thinky" fundamentals trading. see case 1.
18:31:35 ThickAsThieves: is there not added risk to using a bot?
18:32:09 ThickAsThieves: couldnt it be left holding the bag on a big move?
18:32:33 ThickAsThieves: it's not my area
18:32:51 mircea_popescu: sure you could
18:32:52 qxzn: well yes, there are some particular cases where you can beat the bot
18:33:00 mircea_popescu: just like the bot that went deeply into the bitbet bet thinking it's 50-50
18:33:07 qxzn: :)
18:33:10 mircea_popescu: but then it's discovered the code is bad and odd is twice as common as even
18:33:16 qxzn: exactly
18:33:29 qxzn: I sorta throw all that into my case #3
18:33:37 qxzn: thinky trading
18:33:44 mircea_popescu: person knowing it's really 2/3 rather than 50-50 could basically take all the bot's liquidity
18:34:04 qxzn: bot writers have to be careful about not having their house completely cleaned out
18:34:19 ThickAsThieves: i imagine stock exchange bots could also be gamed then
18:34:19 qxzn: there are ways to game bots if you are clever, and the bot isn't defensively enough written
18:34:27 ThickAsThieves: like if i wanna find it's lowest ask
18:34:34 ThickAsThieves: i could keep pushing an ask of my own
18:34:39 qxzn: yes, but you won't beat my bots that way :)
18:35:37 ThickAsThieves: maybe i should start a bot-hunting team
18:35:48 ThickAsThieves: lynch all you nerds!
18:35:49 ThickAsThieves: :)
18:35:54 qxzn: please do!
18:36:03 qxzn: make markets more efficient :)
18:36:04 inhies: bot vs bots
18:36:10 inhies: read an article that touched on that
18:36:32 ThickAsThieves: i know Deprived has some experience in that area
18:36:32 inhies: knowing the trading patterns of other bots, when the mean bot saw that the nice bot was gonna start buying, mean bot buys first and then sells to nice bot at a markup
18:36:59 jborkl: I will also be selling O.USD.C170N = Same terms as above. bot price * 0.75 = my price
18:39:47 furuknap: Bot market trading is really just the first step of the battle of man versus machine. Soon, they'll start developing weapons and our bodies will be props in the next Terminator movie.
18:40:35 taub: thehehe
18:40:45 inhies: furuknap: i can only hope :D
18:41:36 john_connor: Bah...
18:43:02 ThickAsThieves: meant to change to Adama, lol
18:43:39 jborkl: whats up queen Amadala
18:43:47 jborkl: How is your planet
18:49:46 furuknap: Seems Tyfus is taking to his senses on the 100TH thing too. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140366.msg2258584#msg2258584
18:50:27 furuknap: Bah, tytus... That _was_ an honest mistake...
18:51:40 mircea_popescu: furuknap https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140366.msg2254951#msg2254951
18:51:42 mircea_popescu: you seen that ?
18:52:19 jborkl: the bitbet on diff. what digit determines the even number?
18:52:26 furuknap: Yup, responded too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140366.msg2255369#msg2255369
18:52:38 jborkl: 11 million is 1 and 1, but 21 million is 2 and 1
18:55:08 mircea_popescu: jborkl huh ?
18:59:03 furuknap: The mining asset market is completely bonkers. Absolutely insane. Its investors are equally utterly and undeniably mad. Most likley, that includes me. There, now I said it. Carry on.
18:59:45 deadweasel: truth
19:00:32 deadweasel: i've spent more time and money setting up my miners than I'll EVAR get back.
19:00:41 deadweasel: so miners are batshit too.
19:00:48 furuknap: Miners themselves are even more crazy.
19:00:57 furuknap: Yeah, and that includes me too :-)
19:01:41 deadweasel: i think the whole of BTC are borderline personalities
19:01:44 deadweasel: i love it
19:01:46 deadweasel: i'm home
19:01:48 deadweasel: :)
19:01:52 furuknap: :-D
19:07:26 mircea_popescu: not particularly mad. just very foolish.
19:08:22 furuknap: I would argue mad, and by mad I mean that there is no correlation between numbers and decisions and people seem to not notice in the least.
19:09:05 furuknap: Let me take one example, not very taken out of thin air, and not meant to talk anyone or thing down...
19:09:14 Diablo-D3: so
19:09:26 Diablo-D3: one AM share is worth 2.5 BTC?
19:09:54 furuknap: PAJKA bonds are nice little animals run by a seemingly honest person that has been chugging along nicely and yielding a reasonable profit.
19:10:42 furuknap: However, they are capped now at 3MH/s per share and will forever be capped at 15 MH/s when their new ASICs arrive. Which is fine. It's a fixed rate, people should know what they're buying.
19:12:08 furuknap: Then there's 100TH, which granted isn't delivering yet, but let's just forego that and chalk it up to risk and look at expected revenue. 100TH is fixed at 200MH/s, and if things go according to plan, that will be operational sometime this summer, let's sau August to pick a date.
19:12:47 jurov: ...and while everyone is expertly smelling and analyzing mining turds, never before seen pattern emerges unnoticed: *both* s.mpoe and btcusd go up... causes me goosebumps.
19:13:40 furuknap: You would somehow expect that if PAJKA (or any other bond, really, I'm not picking on them) would be dropping in price to match the value of the share once more powerful bonds like 100TH (or anyone, really and I'm not praising them either) come online.
19:14:31 ThickAsThieves: personally i dont understand why anyone would buy a fixed-hash mining asset, unless they were trying to short-term speculate to sell
19:15:10 ThickAsThieves: at least with AM, you know they will hold a % of the network
19:15:13 furuknap: This is the halving effect I've been touting for the past few weeks in practice. We know that once a more powerful bond comes online, the less powerful bonds will drop in dividends. It's simple math, plus and minus. So why aren't anyone even noticing this?
19:15:53 mircea_popescu: furuknap you seem so unaware of the fundamental problems of mining for some reason
19:16:00 ThickAsThieves: AM has commited to a minimum of 10% of the network
19:16:05 mircea_popescu: here's a hint : it is not, overall, a profitable venture on a cash basis approach
19:16:08 furuknap: mp, what would that be.
19:16:12 ThickAsThieves: and more likely will hold 25%
19:16:58 furuknap: Oh, I know that. Mining is an investment in dropping prices. I hate it every time I see BTC go up because I hold some mining
19:17:14 furuknap: *...I hold some mining assets
19:17:24 mircea_popescu: there's much more to it than that
19:18:09 jborkl: The quality of the mining operator, makes a huge difference. A technically challenged person will have a very hard time- even with good equipment
19:18:13 furuknap: I also know that, I'm a big fan of numbersd, remember? :-) I've run the scenarios so many times I see Excel sheets in the back of my eyelids when I blink.
19:18:33 ThickAsThieves: you must be overcomplicating it
19:18:54 jborkl: A very technically proficient operator with poorer equipment, can still do well. You have to be good though
19:19:03 mircea_popescu: not even!
19:19:11 furuknap: not even what?
19:21:52 mircea_popescu: furuknap https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=201268.msg2121475#msg2121475
19:21:55 mircea_popescu: read that quote.
19:23:20 furuknap: I've read it previously. I was attending that thread a bit later on.
19:24:32 mircea_popescu: okay. the point remains : buffett's dilemma
19:24:40 mircea_popescu: worse than fx issues, worse than the abundance of scammers,
19:24:47 ThickAsThieves: the quote is great insight, but we don't know WHEN that will happen
19:24:49 mircea_popescu: mining is a commodified market with large excess capacity
19:24:55 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves it happens all the time.
19:25:17 ThickAsThieves: but it could take 2 years for AM to lose dominance
19:25:31 ThickAsThieves: likely less
19:25:36 furuknap: The commoditizaion is why I want to look at profitability in mining companies over the long term, and thus why I sold out of AM earlier.
19:25:45 ThickAsThieves: but can they not stay a leg up for the foreeable future?
19:25:51 mircea_popescu: i am personally convinced that satoshi deliberately created the mining trap
19:26:09 mircea_popescu: as a way to even the playing field (figuring moneyed interest will fall in, independent geeky types will avoid it)
19:26:19 mircea_popescu: it's fascinating to me to see that it's mostly the idnependents falling in it.
19:26:23 mircea_popescu: but this off teh records.
19:26:43 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves the problem is not that. the problem is the maintenance cost of that dominance
19:26:49 mircea_popescu: which is not offset by any dominance benefit.
19:27:16 ThickAsThieves: the benefit is that AM both sells textiles AND sewing machines
19:27:40 ThickAsThieves: they can tilt to hardware sales
19:27:46 ThickAsThieves: as appropriate
19:28:01 ThickAsThieves: they already do
19:28:16 ThickAsThieves: no one is shipping, so they will ship
19:28:41 furuknap: mp, I think I also spoke to that no later than today somewhere :-) Look, I think I understand what you mean, and if I do, my analysis follows that suit, albeit with likely different evaluations of risk and hope.
19:29:50 ThickAsThieves: the life of the mining hardware sales market is surely longer than the mining farm efforts
19:30:25 ThickAsThieves: so maybe AM becomes the HP of mining computers
19:30:38 ThickAsThieves: or whichever PC maker example you prefer
19:30:42 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves that's not a benefit
19:30:42 mircea_popescu: the value of the sweing machines is strictly in cutting its textile market
19:30:52 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves that's pretty much the only actual alpha scenario here.
19:31:02 ThickAsThieves: the machines are sold at a premium now
19:31:14 ThickAsThieves: priced right on the line of reasonable ROI
19:31:20 ThickAsThieves: this is better than hashing
19:31:25 ThickAsThieves: no?
19:31:47 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves inasmuch as the machines are sold for more than they're worth, the people buying are making a loss
19:31:54 ThickAsThieves: right
19:31:55 mircea_popescu: there's a finite loss to be thus funneled into investor pockets.
19:32:02 mircea_popescu: otherwise, it'd have been better to not sell them at all.
19:32:04 mircea_popescu: so not really.
19:32:27 ThickAsThieves: but it protects the operation from other mining farms
19:32:45 ThickAsThieves: they are mining those blade's lifespand in one sale
19:32:48 ThickAsThieves: now
19:32:53 mircea_popescu: furuknap nothing wriong with that
19:33:29 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves taking the burlington example, the only +ev move is if the war comes and they're converting to making ammo and selling it to the brits on us guaranteed credit.
19:33:44 mircea_popescu: so ya, maybe we end up with alien messages and am gets a 1.5bn govt grant to crack it
19:33:53 ThickAsThieves: hehe
19:33:56 mircea_popescu: then there's added value to the pool and everyone's happy
19:34:06 mircea_popescu: but on the game as it is, the problem looms.
19:34:36 ThickAsThieves: well, i'll get on the board and warn them
19:34:37 ThickAsThieves: ;)
19:34:58 ThickAsThieves: NEVER FORGET BURLINGTON !
19:37:00 furuknap: Meanwhile...
19:37:03 furuknap: ;;ticker
19:37:19 mircea_popescu: nice.
19:47:14 furuknap: "And to sweeten the deal and get those shares moving I've decided to chuck in my bitcoin advertising earnings from my NSFW monetized Porn blogs as a monthly bonus dividend" <- I mean, c'mon, how can one _not_ take the mining asset market seriously?
19:47:55 furuknap: "Yeah, we'll develop and sell iPads and iPhones and iMacs and stuff, but we'll also throw in the tips we get from stripping at the local joint"
19:48:50 ThickAsThieves: I was considering waiving my mgmt fee for a while
19:48:51 mircea_popescu: wait what ?!
19:49:14 mircea_popescu: link pls
19:49:15 furuknap: The later one was my parody in an Apple shareholder agreement, if that's what surprised you.
19:49:52 mircea_popescu: this shit's pretty good.
19:50:46 furuknap: Yeah, for some definition of 'good'.
20:12:14 ThickAsThieves: pics of the USB miners https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195052.msg2249127#msg2249127
20:13:07 deadweasel: not a glowing report
20:13:12 deadweasel: but looks fancy
20:13:26 deadweasel: novelty
20:13:46 ThickAsThieves: he resolved his install issue
20:13:50 ThickAsThieves: if thats what you mean
20:14:01 ThickAsThieves: they mine at +10% advertised
20:18:02 kakobrekla: this arklan dude is some reseller?
20:18:10 kakobrekla: ah i see in topic
20:18:10 kakobrekla: nvm
20:19:55 fiat500: next stop: BTCUSD $1337
20:20:39 furuknap: ;;ticker
20:20:57 furuknap: Just remove 2. from best ask and you're virtually there.
20:21:29 mircea_popescu: lol
20:21:42 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu sending you a pm real quick
20:21:49 mircea_popescu: ye
20:22:08 fiat500: naked pics?
20:22:37 mircea_popescu: ;;google internet story
20:22:40 mircea_popescu: aww
20:22:55 fiat500: lmfao
20:23:00 fiat500: i saw it
20:23:07 fiat500: "<3 mircea"
20:23:19 fiat500: and some eastern european titties
20:23:27 fiat500: fine ones at that
20:26:01 mircea_popescu: they're american titties.
20:26:26 fiat500: well, perhaps shot in america, but they are probably from the ukraine
20:29:07 fiat500: interesting, that was 1 purchase of 1PT offset by sale of 100 100PT shares
20:29:30 BitHub: AM TANKING
20:29:45 ThickAsThieves: panic!
20:29:50 aknap3: woohoo
20:29:51 topace: DUMP DUMP DUMP!
20:29:59 fiat500: really stupid actually
20:30:02 fiat500: if that was the same person
20:30:24 fiat500: his 100PT shares were cheaper, even considering the 5% tribute to TAT
20:30:30 aknap3: If I were to dump, I'd do it on a Tuesday
20:30:59 aknap3: but I don't have any shares right now :)
20:31:10 fiat500: aknap3: why tuesday
20:31:12 ThickAsThieves: prices seem to be generally lower on Fri/Sat
20:31:19 ThickAsThieves: and Higher Mon/Tue
20:31:23 fiat500: interesting
20:31:26 aknap3: fiat500: full of hope for divs
20:31:37 aknap3: hope fetches higher prices than reality
20:31:41 aknap3: also why I like calls so much
20:31:54 fiat500: divs are just silly
20:32:07 ThickAsThieves: also, BTC/USD is up
20:32:11 ThickAsThieves: and some want to capitalize
20:32:19 fiat500: i mean, its going to take 6 months worth of divs to make an amount equivalent to what ive made simply due to appreciation
20:32:23 aknap3: that'll cause a temporery dip
20:32:39 aknap3: then when BTC/USD drops, bunch of cheaply gained BTC enters the market and buys wrecklessly
20:32:45 fiat500: so selling before divs is a great idea assuming theres panic buying before
20:33:17 ThickAsThieves: it kind of gets real quite immediately before divs
20:33:19 fiat500: aknap3: thats actually more likely once the ASICS reach mainstream
20:33:22 fiat500: looking forward to it
20:33:22 ThickAsThieves: so you have to time it right
20:33:25 ThickAsThieves: also,
20:33:33 ThickAsThieves: this can all be thrown out the window,
20:33:58 ThickAsThieves: dpending on when friedcat processes xfers to exchanges
20:34:07 fiat500: heh
20:34:10 ThickAsThieves: which are not predictable
20:34:11 aknap3: that's the black swan
20:34:33 furuknap: mp, I hadn't seen that internet story video. Very, very cool, thanks for sharing.
20:34:59 fiat500: lmfao
20:39:10 fiat500: interesting that all this movement is on BTCT but HI is quiet
20:39:23 fiat500: anyone here trade on havelock?
20:39:39 aknap3: I have an account there. tried it once.
20:39:54 aknap3: TAT seems to like the issuer interface
20:40:48 aknap3: I think the setup for transfering between there and mpex has great potential, actually a model that should be copied
20:40:56 topace: :)
20:40:57 topace: thanks
20:41:08 topace: <-- i run havelock
20:41:20 aknap3: topace: didn't think you were paying attention :)
20:41:43 aknap3: for my own trading, I don't use it because I prefer to play options
20:42:31 topace: i glance here from time to time
20:42:32 topace: :)
20:42:57 aknap3: but I'd be there all the time otherwise -- plus, I'm Canadian
20:44:03 topace: hehe well, options might be coming soon (tm) to a havelock investments near you!
20:44:38 aknap3: cool
20:48:47 jurov: ;;bc,stats
20:49:32 fiat500: topace: cool, thinking of moving some coins to trade there
20:49:38 furuknap: That's a petty change...
20:51:33 fiat500: good thing i didnt bother with difficulty futures :P
20:53:30 ThickAsThieves: ;;estimate
20:54:34 furuknap: Fascinating. This has been an announcement about an observation of no relatable quality.
20:56:55 jurov: ;;next
20:57:08 jurov: hohohoooo
21:15:31 ThickAsThieves: 2000 new shares on BTCTC, lol
21:16:16 aknap3: ouch
21:17:36 ThickAsThieves: that explains the selloff earlier
21:23:28 fiat500: ThickAsThieves: aha, and explains the lack of movement elsewhere
21:23:31 fiat500: thanks for pointing it out
21:27:05 parseval: I'm glad that worked for you inhies
21:50:17 pgp: question: is there anything preventing the creation of a transaction for 0 BTC, but with a miner fee so that it would pickup up?
21:54:21 pgp: the reason i ask is that all the passthru nonsense seems so cumbersome - seems to me like you could use the block chain to move shares around, no?
21:54:39 furuknap: Colored coins?
21:54:54 fiat500: the passthrough makes it easier to trade on an exchange
21:55:32 pgp: but they're not fungible
21:57:12 pgp: why not imbed them in the blockchain in the comments field - seems to me that it could be done pretty easily so your shares could exist in your wallet and could be moved to where you want
21:57:49 pgp: provided, of course, that every agrees on a format for such a comments
21:59:32 kakobrekla: 23:50.17 ( pgp ) question: is there anything preventing the creation of a transaction for 0 BTC, < yes, with 0.8xx theres a min set... cant have txes smaller than i dont remember howmany satoshi
22:02:33 fiat500: pgp: some of them are fungible
22:03:11 pgp: yes, but you have to push the shares, requires someone to do it for you, etc
22:03:15 fiat500: blockchain is not the most efficient data structure for this kind of stuff
22:03:21 fiat500: when you are distributing dividends etc
22:03:32 jurov: pgp i actually stumbled upon similar txs
22:03:39 jurov: some outputs were 0
22:04:04 pgp: seems to me that you could use the blockchain for lots of stuff besides BTC
22:04:31 pgp: but if there is a min quantity, that's a problem
22:04:40 mircea_popescu: pgp 0tx are nonstandard
22:04:46 mircea_popescu: (meaning they won't get picked up)
22:04:52 fiat500: yeah you could use it to communicate video data if you want but its not an efficient way to do it
22:04:58 pgp: even with a miner fee?
22:05:08 mircea_popescu: as to the blockchain shares, it's called colored coins. it has it's own problems
22:05:10 mircea_popescu: ;;google why i nixed jazz
22:05:30 mircea_popescu: it's not a matter of miner fees. nonstandard tx are not relayed.
22:05:36 jurov: pgp, for sharing big data in blockchain-esqe way, there's freenetproject
22:05:58 pgp: but to decentralize the ledgering of othe assets seems like an intersting application
22:05:59 jurov: ut as it has limited capacity, it forgets unused files
22:07:13 jurov: you did read fraudsters treatise on the decentralized exchanges?
22:08:08 jurov: so i think yes the ownership can and will be tracked by some blockchain mechanism
22:08:17 jurov: but markets will stay centralized
22:09:02 pgp: I did not read the fraudsters article about decentralized exchanges - link?
22:09:30 jurov: [00:05] just below <mircea_popescu> ;;google why i nixed jazz
22:13:12 pgp: yeah, so what about it?
22:14:36 pgp: I'm refering to a idea about moving asset custody. For example, why not have a mechnism "like" the blockchain to move ASICM to whatever exchange you want.
22:14:48 pgp: or keep it in you own wallet
22:15:07 fiat500: exchanges have no incentive to implement that
22:15:35 pgp: but an issuer would
22:15:54 pgp: public ledger would make divs a breeze
22:17:01 mircea_popescu: it's a bad idea.
22:17:17 pgp: are you a bit biased?
22:17:26 mircea_popescu: ;/
22:17:33 furuknap: Problem 0
22:17:41 mircea_popescu: you know this is diosxcussed in the article you apparently don't want to read.
22:18:11 pgp: I read it - what are you specifically referring to?
22:18:22 pgp: problem 0?
22:18:27 furuknap: [00:17] <furuknap> Problem 0
22:19:02 mircea_popescu: that i am not biased, but in a perfect position to implement it
22:19:06 mircea_popescu: if it actually were a good idea.
22:19:07 mircea_popescu: it's not.
22:19:58 furuknap: I'll still argue that you're stuck, though, mp. Colored coins in the BTC blockchain may not work, but nothing prevents an alternate chain, tailored to the needs of an asset market, to evolve. Thinking in terms of what is possible or conceivable now is limiting.
22:20:12 furuknap: *from evolving.
22:20:15 mircea_popescu: that's not the objection.
22:20:26 mircea_popescu: the objection is that this thing wouldn't actually add any benefit.
22:20:55 pgp: what is meant by colored coins?
22:21:09 mircea_popescu: creating some special coins which denote ownership of shares.
22:22:02 furuknap: It would add benefit if it could solve problems that an asset market has or will get.
22:22:13 mircea_popescu: furuknap such as ?
22:22:34 furuknap: We may not see that right now, but none of us saw in 2008 what problems Bitcoin would solve either. Otherwise, we'd be called Satoshi Nakamoto.
22:23:13 mircea_popescu: no, actually i saw the problems
22:23:17 mircea_popescu: what i didn't see was the solution
22:23:21 mircea_popescu: not even by a long shot.
22:23:34 furuknap: That's one of the things that fascinate me with cryptocurrencies; it allows us to explore (and in altcoin land, test) new ideas for working with values.
22:23:55 mircea_popescu: but sure, in general speaking the world is not complete so you never know.
22:25:29 furuknap: OK, so here's one problem that current asset market doesn't solve. Insider trading or what we consider unethical price manipulation, legal or otherwise. I don't have a solution, but a BTC-based or derived system may bring forth ideas that could control or somehow reverse illegal actions, as defined by whatever jurisdiction.
22:26:31 mircea_popescu: reverse ?
22:26:47 mircea_popescu: you want a reversible altchain ?
22:27:18 furuknap: I don't know, that's the point. If I had the solution, I would tell you, honestly :-)
22:27:29 mircea_popescu: well supposedly colored coins are the solution
22:27:38 mircea_popescu: what we're looking for is a conceivable problem they might solve.
22:27:56 furuknap: For instance, again not particularly thought out, bans on shares held by denoted key insiders before or during important events. A deadlock on trades with those shares could reverse the trade (to be declared to the buyer) if breach of whatever happened.
22:28:56 mircea_popescu: you'd never know the insider handles. kinda the point of crypto currency
22:29:05 TomServo: Would it somehow allow a failed exchange to transfer shares to another? Or is that not even an issue?
22:29:24 furuknap: Again, now you're thinking in BTC mode.
22:29:31 TomServo: Or an owner of assets on a failed exchange, I should say.
22:29:57 mircea_popescu: TomServo well i don't see how it'd do better than what's currently in place atm
22:30:02 mircea_popescu: (see bitvps transfer)
22:31:18 FabianB: not much difference between failed (dead) altcoin and failed exchange
22:31:23 TomServo: I will take a look. Honestly, I don't know much other than it sounds like the glbse closure was a fuckshow.
22:33:21 qxzn: Has anyone else noticed that BTCTC could easily stand for BTC Trash Can?
22:33:40 mircea_popescu: how charitable
22:33:56 mircea_popescu: TomServo bitvps was transferred off mpex
22:33:59 TomServo: mircea_popescu: I didn't realize bitvps was listed on mpex originally. Why the transfer?
22:34:14 mircea_popescu: list of holder gpg keys encrypted with owner's key publioshed on btctalk
22:34:39 mircea_popescu: http://polimedia.us/fraudsters/2013/sbvps-delisting-notice/
22:35:03 mircea_popescu: and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76506.msg1531701#msg1531701 for the actual thing.
22:35:19 mircea_popescu: unlike the horrorshow of glbse etc emails, this is the actual standard i'd say.
22:37:31 BitHub: hey mp do you have mpex upgrade/revampl plans for the next few months posted on your blog i could read about?
22:37:49 mircea_popescu: um
22:38:16 mircea_popescu: that's about it.
22:38:33 BitHub: thank you :)
22:39:30 BitHub: ahh back from feb, not much changing from that?
22:39:34 jurov: !ticker m s.mpoe
22:39:48 qxzn: pgp: "I'm refering to a idea about moving asset custody. For example, why not have a mechnism "like" the blockchain to move ASICM to whatever exchange you want." this sounds a lot like ripple
22:40:46 mircea_popescu: BitHub only been a few months. plans for years.
22:41:07 pgp: ok - so - why are "colored coins" such a bad idea? I am not suggesting any sort of p2p exchange, just ledgering and the ability to trade you shares on differenet exchanges.
22:41:24 BitHub: any new ipo's coming up?
22:41:35 pgp: ripple is flawed
22:42:01 pgp: but their consensus engine does seem interesting
22:42:33 BitHub: just analysing what i should do with the mpoe stock
22:42:37 qxzn: the problem is that shares on one exchange have different value than shares on another exchange
22:42:54 qxzn: mostly because of variance in counterparty risk
22:43:01 BitHub: i would actually like to sign up and use it, something different from BF and btct
22:43:13 mircea_popescu: BitHub yes, actually.
22:43:13 BitHub: but don't think its really suited for me atm
22:43:37 mircea_popescu: pgp for one, you will have the normal confirmation delay. for the other, how do you pay the miners ?
22:43:44 BitHub: cool
22:43:48 mircea_popescu: for the yet another, how do you pay the devs
22:45:02 BitHub: i really miss glbse
22:45:42 pgp: yes, but let's look at how it work for financial markets. I can hold a stock certificate in my name (personal wallet), or I can deposit with my broker and put it in "street" name (broker's wallet and trade it on an exchange - ANY exchange - in the US that would mean 7 major exchanges, but 20 or so dark pools. Every share is identical and fungible.
22:45:57 mircea_popescu: right
22:46:08 mircea_popescu: BitHub why ?
22:46:09 pgp: I don't care about delay, just the ability to move it
22:46:21 TomServo: pgp: I think opentransactions might be the thing you're looking for.
22:46:34 mircea_popescu: is that thing still actively tinkered on ?
22:46:46 BitHub: idont know it just exciting when it first was around
22:47:11 mircea_popescu: pgp afaik these days stock certs are mostly digital
22:47:22 mircea_popescu: you can "own" it but in the terms of, some clearance corp saying so and that's all there is.
22:47:38 mircea_popescu: nobody wants to administer the physical stuff anymore, too expensive, forgeries etc
22:48:01 TomServo: mircea_popescu: you asking if open-transactions is being tinkered on/
22:48:05 mircea_popescu: yea
22:48:13 mircea_popescu: i recall looking at it early 2012 or so
22:48:14 TomServo: that was pretty recent
22:48:18 TomServo: and compelling
22:48:19 mircea_popescu: even sponsoring it a little.
22:48:21 BitHub: what if exchanges agreed to allow users from one exchange to exchange the same shares with another user on another asset exchange
22:48:27 mircea_popescu: but, it never seemed to go very far for some reason.
22:48:44 mircea_popescu: BitHub htye already do, for pretty much all mpex shares
22:48:50 mircea_popescu: you can trade the pt to the share and back
22:49:15 BitHub: nice
22:49:19 pgp: i see
22:50:32 BitHub: some mpex BF intergration would be sweet
22:50:39 pgp: btw, you most certainly can request a stock certificate at any time - hassle and not common - but people do it for many reasons
22:51:23 BitHub: digital stock cert could be linked to a qr code or something <--n00b at this stuff
22:51:58 pgp: but having some sort of non exchange controlled mechanism to prove, for example, that there are no conterfiet share out there, seems like a worthy goal
22:52:41 mircea_popescu: the mpex dividend actually tests for this
22:52:49 pgp: a public ledger
22:52:55 mircea_popescu: as it won't push out div if the share count is > the declared count
22:53:00 pgp: or anonymous addresses
22:53:07 pgp: blockchain
22:53:15 pgp: or really, an altchain
22:53:24 mircea_popescu: listen, an altchain is not trustworthy in pricniple.
22:53:30 pgp: *of* anonymous addresses
22:53:32 mircea_popescu: it only becomes trustworthy if very much used.
22:53:35 mircea_popescu: tons of mining
22:53:35 mircea_popescu: etc.
22:54:00 mircea_popescu: this fetish people have for blockchains is being exploited atm by all the altchain scams.
22:54:26 mircea_popescu: fact is an altchain is trustworthy just for being an altchain to the same degree that written text can be trusted just for being written on paper.
22:54:36 mircea_popescu: paper will take anything, the blockchain idea will take anything.
22:54:50 BitHub: BF mpex intergration example, i could have an account at bf and mpex and buy shares from bf and transfer it to mpex for a fee, both exchanges share the fee. Now i can trade my sdice shares on mpex, vice versa
22:55:13 BitHub: ahhbitraage
22:55:51 mircea_popescu: BitHub people; actually do this already
22:55:56 mircea_popescu: i dont recall whio's running the hf pt.
22:56:18 BitHub: true? i would love to understand it
22:58:17 BitHub: ore just see more seamless intergration between btct, mpex, havelock, BF
22:59:32 pgp: ok - so the sort of thing that is possible today is much like ADR and ordinary shares. They are convertible for a fee, they trade on different exchange, and it's a hassle to convert.
22:59:59 pgp: but it the only solution for dealing with DIFFERENT base currencies...
23:00:24 pgp: BTC assets are the same currency, but same hassle? why?
23:00:58 mircea_popescu: because mpex uses strong ownership
23:01:02 mircea_popescu: (gpg contracts, gpg orders)
23:01:17 mircea_popescu: and everyone else uses weak ownership (no contracts ; fiat ownership)
23:01:17 jurov: i think mp is the wrong person to ask things from... you want to have corporations that issue something like gpg-signed share certificates
23:01:39 jurov: then it will be only a question to get exchanges to recognize them
23:01:52 mircea_popescu: and so at the interface between hard and soft you will have a gap
23:03:11 mircea_popescu: jurov well basically listing on mpex does that exactly.
23:05:10 TomServo: I think open transactions is meant to solve these issues.
23:07:32 jurov: TomServo: is meant to or it actually solves? why friedcat isn't using it, for example?
23:07:55 jurov: if he hates "classic" exchanges
23:09:02 TomServo: jurov: I guess 'is meant to' at this point - it appears incomplete
23:09:33 TomServo: But it sounds promising with evidently having solved the cross server discover issue
23:10:29 jurov: mircea_popescu: there is no possibility for a corporation to have multiple counterparties on the same level as mpex
23:10:56 jurov: it's only possible to have everything on mpex and then passthroughs
23:11:31 mircea_popescu: well, leaving aside that there isn't a 2nd mpex to begin with, having no hierarchy means you'll have to face the byzantine problem
23:11:36 mircea_popescu: which means either blockchain or more genius
23:13:27 jurov: yes i know, but i'm optimistic it will be solved long term
23:14:15 mircea_popescu: maybe. i'm still not sure why exactly it is a problem.
23:14:46 ThickAsThieves: typing from mobile, but it seems to me you guys are requesting a feature of inter exchange xfer,
23:14:59 ThickAsThieves: but not stating the problem u wanna solve
23:15:14 ThickAsThieves: my guess,
23:15:18 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i been asking that for ~2 hours
23:15:28 mircea_popescu: i guess people are just keen to do stuff
23:15:38 ThickAsThieves: is u wanna arb without the risk of taking a position on all xchanhes
23:15:51 ThickAsThieves: and rhis is just masked bitching
23:16:05 ThickAsThieves: but
23:16:11 ThickAsThieves: what u dont realize
23:16:28 ThickAsThieves: is if u could do inter xchanfe arb
23:16:33 ThickAsThieves: sobeasily
23:16:41 ThickAsThieves: it wouldn't exist
23:16:58 ThickAsThieves: right?
23:17:24 TomServo: I thought the problem was not having to trust a third party?
23:17:30 mircea_popescu: haha that's a point
23:17:38 jurov: it's also trust. mp seems to think about it as nonissue that mpex is to be the apex trusted with all shares
23:17:44 mircea_popescu: trustless finance is nonsense.
23:17:48 ThickAsThieves: if u dont want risk buy direct
23:17:57 ThickAsThieves: closest u can get
23:18:02 mircea_popescu: im not sure why this is difficult to digest, but finance is fundamentally fiduciary.
23:18:09 ThickAsThieves: but then, no arb 4 u
23:18:36 BitHub: ghey
23:18:50 ThickAsThieves: so the moral is
23:19:15 ThickAsThieves: if u wanna make fukn money on arb, take positions and risk
23:19:33 ThickAsThieves: and make datmoney
23:19:44 mircea_popescu: i don't think at any point in the > 5000 years history of arbing
23:19:50 mircea_popescu: anyone involved didn't try to minimize risk
23:19:52 jurov: yes. and then passthrough op vanishes
23:20:01 jurov: like brendio for example
23:20:30 mircea_popescu: thats a good example cause he seemed real trustworthy all through and never had a good reason to disappear
23:23:50 mircea_popescu: unrelatedly, if you've never tried having a girl sit in your lap while you're sitting on one of those large yoga inflatable rubber balls you must do so forthwith
23:27:06 qxzn: < mircea_popescu> trustless finance is nonsense.
23:27:10 qxzn: ^
23:40:18 furuknap: Wonder when someone will come up with an LTC AM PT.
23:40:22 mircea_popescu: didn;'t cryptostocks turn scammy or am i confused
23:40:27 Namworld: Brendio didn't really disappear. He eventually showed up after harassing him.
23:41:09 Namworld: He just kind of carried on when GLBSE closed and couldn't bother when GLBSE disclosed the lists.
23:41:25 furuknap: I haven't looked into that exchange at all, but the AM PT just recently launched so either someone is very stupid or very brave if this is a scam site.
23:42:24 mircea_popescu: furuknap it;s old, but there was some issue
23:42:28 mircea_popescu: recently i mean
23:42:28 furuknap: The site is trading with a massive 4 full AM shares, though (it's a 1/1000 PT) so I'm not expecting any huge market moves elsewhere.
23:43:20 mircea_popescu: a there it is, not scam, hack-y
23:43:59 furuknap: Ah. The AM PT thread launched May 5 this year, though: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=196217.msg2039800#msg2039800
23:44:28 mircea_popescu: so 6 days before the hack
23:44:45 furuknap: Yup.
23:51:29 ThickAsThieves: hacked twice if i recall
23:57:43 furuknap: Cool. Of course, if Bitcoins goes to $1M each, then you'd also be famous for being the person that bought a Bentley GT for $375M.
23:59:10 ThickAsThieves: you could say that abiut all the dollars never spent on bitcoin