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Transcript for 25-01-2015, 1370 lines:

00:16:27 mircea_popescu: first!

00:16:59 kakobrekla: lemme edit that up

00:17:36 mircea_popescu: scam

00:18:04 kakobrekla: lemme edit that up

00:19:39 mircea_popescu: davout: "you want to do some btc related accounting? well, fuck you, the decimals after the second are a $1.99 in-app purchase" << seriously ? like a power chord that's not six inches long ?

00:20:51 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't know that the thing needs to cough up *any* transaction on demand. << one can make his own emacs scripts do whatever one wants. notthe job of emacs to provide a preloaded button for arbitrary tasks.

00:21:42 *: ben_vulpes frowns

00:21:47 ben_vulpes: are you agreeing or what?

00:22:41 jurov: ben_vulpes: what is meant by "cough up transaction"?

00:22:53 ben_vulpes: ./bitcoind getrawtransaction TXID

00:23:02 ben_vulpes: -> LOTSAH3X

00:23:38 mircea_popescu: "a CPU profile of the time spent processing a 32 MB block by a full node is dominated by ECDSA signature verification, meaning that with the current infrastructure and computer hardware, scaling above 300 tps would require a clustered full node where ECDSA signature checking is load balanced across multiple machines."

00:23:52 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i am agreeing yes

00:25:10 jurov: well, but if you attach a wallet to the node, it will need to crawl whole blockchain to get its transactions?

00:25:23 mircea_popescu: yes.

00:25:31 jurov: some means to get individual txs is needed

00:25:53 mircea_popescu: whoever needs this provides this.

00:26:14 ben_vulpes: if the node were to maintain the list of unspent transaction outputs, it would also have a list of the TXID's with unspent outputs.

00:27:22 ben_vulpes: it's a much more tractable problem to find transactions relevant to a given address out of that list than it is to walk the blockchain for same.

00:27:47 ben_vulpes: correct me if i'm wrong, but address balance is the sum of unspent transactions to that public key.

00:28:01 mircea_popescu: Cubs in the Islamic State, the generation that will conquer Rome in shā Allah << boys are wearing the stupid face veil thing too now ?!

00:28:01 jurov: but you propose to maintain only unspent ones? or none at all?

00:28:07 mircea_popescu: those cubs look like women.

00:28:32 ben_vulpes: i think that maintaining the utxo list is a good idea.

00:29:07 ben_vulpes: with the utxo list in hand, a node could create a raw transaction for signing by an offline node.

00:29:25 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's a bad idea.

00:29:36 ben_vulpes: and why?

00:29:37 mircea_popescu: it's not unlike the "idea" to maintain a list of the phone numbers of the entire planet.

00:29:42 mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe you need to call someone ?

00:30:05 mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that in order to call someone, having the phone number is not a big deal. having a passing answer for "who's this ?" is.

00:30:33 jurov: with bitcoin you need to know your own phone numbers

00:30:41 mircea_popescu: if every phone had to maintain 6bn phone numbers ? that's terrabit memory on any phone ?

00:30:51 mircea_popescu: jurov so you maintain them.

00:31:11 jurov: yea, i'm asking how?

00:31:12 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how long does a "rescan" take these days?

00:31:22 mircea_popescu: this is immaterial.

00:31:25 jurov: scouring whole blockchain every time address is added to wallet?

00:31:37 mircea_popescu: design is not a consideratio nof "how long does it take to bale the water out"

00:31:42 mircea_popescu: built it so it's not on a fucking river.

00:31:49 ben_vulpes: okay okay

00:32:08 mircea_popescu: suppose you somehow DO actually want 32mb blocks. how long does a rescan take then ?

00:32:14 mircea_popescu: no point in importing nonsense into the future.

00:32:30 ben_vulpes: so i made two claims, let's treat them seperately

00:32:46 ben_vulpes: a) bitcoind should not return arbitrary transactions by id

00:33:00 kakobrekla: every time address is added to wallet? < if this is your common practice i think you are doing something wrong

00:33:19 ben_vulpes: b) bitcoind *should* be able to return transactions with unspent outputs

00:33:51 ben_vulpes: <kakobrekla> ... something wrong << what is best practice? feedback from industry leaders would be useful here.

00:33:55 jurov: okay, so for one to have complete stack, run something like electrum server that maintains the tx index and connects only to our node

00:34:08 mircea_popescu: bitcoind should put the blocks into an accessible database. the querying of that thing is the job of the user.

00:34:43 jurov: yu also imply creatng useful transaction index is the job of the user

00:34:51 jurov: i don't have an issue w/it

00:34:55 jurov: just want to clarify

00:35:26 mircea_popescu: there's no ready way to know hat the user will want the index to be.

00:35:32 ben_vulpes: another claim, for your consideration

00:35:39 ben_vulpes: bitcoind should not maintain a wallet

00:35:42 mircea_popescu: trying to invent a "this is the right way" because we're the power rangers isn't the way

00:35:58 mircea_popescu: bitcoind-wallet should maintain a wallet.

00:36:11 mircea_popescu: bitcoind should broadcast verifiable txn submitted to it.

00:37:14 ben_vulpes: bitcoind-wallet should generate and sign transactions.

00:37:28 mircea_popescu: modular fucking design, so you doin't have to change the whole thing every time a part sucks [for your usecase]

00:37:43 mircea_popescu: like linux. i don't have to get a new version of lindows to get rid of fucking notepad

00:37:50 jurov: okay. but then bitcoin will not be able whether relayed transactions aren't completely bogus

00:38:03 jurov: if it won't have even utxo set

00:38:03 mircea_popescu: txn are verifiable aren't they.

00:38:16 kakobrekla: imho 3 parts. private key handler, bc api and a thing in between

00:38:29 mircea_popescu: at least yeah

00:39:43 kakobrekla: first runs on airgap, second on my server in dc and third on my desktop

00:40:26 jurov: so, it will allow me to relay 1000 doublespend transactions with different destination addresses, because it can't check if the source isn't spent already?

00:40:41 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> txn are verifiable aren't they. << not really. transaction only includes txid of previous transaction which itself has the pubkey required for validation.

00:41:00 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes so then how "not really" ?

00:41:11 ben_vulpes: do you want me to say "not at all"?

00:41:25 mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> bitcoind should broadcast verifiable txn submitted to it. <<

00:42:04 jurov: and to do it you need to find all the inputs, if i understand ben_vulpes correctly

00:42:09 ben_vulpes: like i'm 5, please.

00:42:25 ben_vulpes: to verify a new transaction, one needs the previous transaction in hand, in entirety.

00:42:37 jurov: ^all of them

00:43:03 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes once a transaction is proposed, the software has two options. 1) "oh , this looks like a tx involving inputs i remember were valid" and 2) "these are the inputs. check. these are their sources. check. these are their sources. check. this is the coinbase. check. ok."

00:43:05 mircea_popescu: 1 is wrong.

00:43:21 mircea_popescu: and i don't give a shit how convenient it is. let userland cut down the correct implementation for the sake of convenience.

00:43:58 mircea_popescu: if you check you check. if you don't check, then don't check.

00:44:11 jurov: mircea_popescu: but it also means it will relay all shit imaginable, you regard it as convenience otherwise?

00:44:22 mircea_popescu: i don';t see how it will.

00:44:44 jurov: how else you want to check relayed transactions from other nodes?

00:45:04 mircea_popescu: by looking at their inputs, an the inputs for those inputs, all the way to the valid coinbases involved.

00:45:24 ben_vulpes: so then the thing *does* need to retrieve arbitrary transactions.

00:45:28 jurov: but you sid it should not know anything about he inputs

00:45:35 ben_vulpes: from *its* blockchain (database).

00:45:37 jurov: you said it's the user's job to

00:45:55 *: mircea_popescu doesn't understand why this is contentious and will re-read.

00:47:14 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it needs to retrieve arbitrary blocks. why txn specifically ?

00:47:49 mircea_popescu: you can't have a valid txn in an otherwise invalid block.

00:49:10 mircea_popescu: maybe these other words work better : "transactions" is a useful notion when adding data to blocks. it is in no way useful, or even existent, when verifying anything. all you can verify, both the most and the least you can verify, are BLOCKS.

00:49:20 mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "a valid transaction". merely, a valid block.

00:49:38 ben_vulpes: i guess this implies maintaining an index of txn hashes -> block hashes for lookup and validity checking

00:49:48 mircea_popescu: you can, for the sake of being silly, talk of "transactions included in valud blocks" but it really doens';t mean anythinmg. a block is a block.

00:50:02 mircea_popescu: you can't have "half a block"

00:51:07 jurov: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules#.22tx.22_messages

00:51:10 assbot: Protocol rules - Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1tbWAMc )

00:51:13 jurov: step 16

00:51:34 mircea_popescu: jurov i thought we were discussing bitcoin as a spec, rather than bitcoin as a hack.

00:51:35 jurov: having whole block wont help you, you need the utxo public key

00:51:49 mircea_popescu: jurov once it's in a block ? for why ?

00:52:11 ben_vulpes: jurov: a transaction in a block contains the public key iirc

00:52:11 jurov: how else you 'll be cerain it's the same utxo that baked in the block?

00:52:22 mircea_popescu: jurov how do you care ?

00:52:28 mircea_popescu: im not understanding something here.

00:52:49 jurov: that's what i'm asking, if you don't care it won't check relayed transactions?

00:52:56 mircea_popescu: ugh.

00:53:02 jurov: for all manners of double spends?

00:53:08 mircea_popescu: let me model this for a moment.

00:53:17 mircea_popescu: so block 1 is mined, 50 btc > 1block1coinbase

00:53:38 mircea_popescu: in block 2, a tx takes 20 btc from 1block1coinbase to 1testaddress1 ; 50 btc > 1block2coinbase

00:54:01 mircea_popescu: we see in block 3 a tx that proposes to take 10 btc from 1testaddress1 to 1 testaddress2. you propose we can't verify what ?

00:54:47 jurov: if it's laready mined, then someone else verified it

00:54:59 jurov: but i'm talking about 0conf transactions

00:55:00 mircea_popescu: exaclt.y

00:55:11 mircea_popescu: well the block 3 tx i named as "proposed" is a 0 conf.

00:55:48 mircea_popescu: so you see this 0 conf tx that's being proposed references an input in block 2. which you have and you verify and that's that.

00:56:05 jurov: you need to find and extract the specific inputs used and check the public keys

00:56:57 jurov: and if you don't have tx index, that means getting whole blocks

00:57:05 jurov: to get these keys

00:57:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17950 @ 0.00049152 = 8.8228 BTC [+]

00:57:28 mircea_popescu: ...

00:57:37 mircea_popescu: i feel like i just spoke into a bag over here.

00:58:08 mircea_popescu: if you know that block 2 is verified, and you know that 1testadress1 is the 1testaddress1, what more do you need to check ?

00:58:20 jurov: because addresses aren't the atomic units

00:58:30 ben_vulpes: if i can interrupt, i'm coming at this problem from an entirely different angle.

00:58:32 mircea_popescu: thy aren't ?

00:58:35 jurov: you can send 10 times something to an address

00:58:41 jurov: thwen wehn you want to spend it

00:58:53 jurov: you must exactly name all these 10 inputs!

00:58:59 mircea_popescu: so ?

00:59:04 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes by all means.

00:59:13 ben_vulpes: which is the transaction creation process.

00:59:26 ben_vulpes: if i'm reading correctly, you propose moving transaction creation *out* of bitcoind.

00:59:59 mircea_popescu: bitcoind-the full node /

01:00:01 mircea_popescu: ?

01:00:22 ben_vulpes: i guess a step backwards is in order first

01:00:23 mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> first runs on airgap, second on my server in dc and third on my desktop << seems txn are logically created on 1.

01:00:37 mircea_popescu: i think of bitcoind arbitrarily as 2.

01:00:40 mircea_popescu: and 3 is a toolset.

01:00:47 mircea_popescu: perhaps this mapping is only in my head ?

01:00:51 ben_vulpes: you're proposing a new "wallet" that knows how to create transactions.

01:01:06 ben_vulpes: the bitcoind *node* doesn't give a whit about transaction creation

01:01:11 mircea_popescu: right

01:01:30 mircea_popescu: the bitcoind node keeps a db, the bitcoind wallet selects what it wants and does what it pleases.

01:01:58 mircea_popescu: the bitcoind node makes sure it did what it pleased within bounds, and off it goes.

01:04:26 jurov: mircea_popescu: pls closer describe your idea of checking the transaction. maybe there lies the problem

01:04:47 jurov: you singlehandedly rejected the wiki link so you know better?

01:04:59 mircea_popescu: jurov i dunno how to do it better than http://log.b-a.link/?date=25-01-2015#990883

01:04:59 assbot: Logged on 25-01-2015 00:53:08; mircea_popescu: let me model this for a moment.

01:05:05 mircea_popescu: perhaps ask a question ? reductio ad absurdum ?

01:05:45 jurov: transaction is not checked against whole coinbase or whole blocks

01:06:03 jurov: but against individual outputs that it spends.

01:06:07 jurov: with me?

01:06:19 jurov: they may even not yet be in block

01:06:40 mircea_popescu: !up phillipsjk

01:06:49 mircea_popescu: i don't follow. use the formalism in the model, that's why it's there.

01:07:08 jurov: because your model says about whole blocks and coinbases

01:07:12 mircea_popescu: right.

01:07:46 mircea_popescu: well... you can't have any btc to spend if you don;t have any btc to spend. that specifically means, a derivaiton of a coinbase, in a block.

01:08:07 decimation: before block 3 is published, 1testaddress2 sends to 1testaddress3 (both 0 verify)?

01:08:25 mircea_popescu: rejected.

01:08:34 jurov: but as 0conf transaction can be checked against other 0conf transactions (remmeber satoshidice?)

01:08:48 mircea_popescu: jurov but only once the previous is included.

01:08:57 mircea_popescu: you can't have the 3rd higher in the tree than the 2nd

01:09:09 jurov: no

01:09:14 kakobrekla: seems txn are logically created on 1. < afaik you can do it on 3 and just sign on 1

01:09:29 jurov: they can be all included at once (but not in reverse order)

01:09:36 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hence 3 = tools.

01:09:46 kakobrekla: yes

01:09:47 mircea_popescu: they can "prepare" your tx, but for my formalism, it ios "created" once 1.

01:09:49 mircea_popescu: semantics i guess.

01:11:01 mircea_popescu: jurov so basdically you're talking of a degenerate case of my model, which sure, as a convenience can be implemented by my model as well.

01:11:18 mircea_popescu: "oh look, 3 is based on 2 which we just approved, include it too"

01:11:50 jurov: no i'm trying to explain transactions maintain their identity in blocks

01:12:05 mircea_popescu: they do not. transactions once included are no longer a thing.

01:12:14 decimation: so to be clear - before block 3 is verified, 1testaddress1 sends 20 btc to 1testaddress2, and 1testaddress2 sends 20 btc to 1testaddress3? Is that the issue?

01:12:17 mircea_popescu: they are only a thing while in mempool. but once they're in the block, they melt away.

01:12:22 jurov: you seem to imagine they got poured into the blocks as scraps of gold into a solid brick

01:12:31 mircea_popescu: this is nothing but the actual case.

01:12:32 jurov: it's not the case

01:12:45 mircea_popescu: again : all you can verify, both the most and the least you can verify, are BLOCKS.

01:12:55 jurov: because any new transaction explicitly names each idividual scrap

01:13:04 mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as "veryinfing a transaction that was already included"

01:13:09 mircea_popescu: that's irrelevant.

01:13:09 jurov: so to verify if you mus pull the scraps out

01:13:23 jurov: i'm about new ones

01:13:27 mircea_popescu: just because that's what you do now doesn't imply it's what you must do.

01:13:56 mircea_popescu: currently proposed transactions are verified on the basis of historically accepted blocks, not on tyhe basis of historically accepted transactions.

01:14:02 ben_vulpes: all that must be done is check that a tx input comes from a previous block.

01:14:15 ben_vulpes: s/./?

01:14:25 mircea_popescu: no.

01:14:26 jurov: can it be done without doing the individual signatures?

01:14:54 ben_vulpes: ah ah but check that a transaction is in a block

01:15:00 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes all that needs to be done is verify that a tx input matches a previously included output, and that the block was valid.

01:15:18 ben_vulpes: got it

01:15:27 mircea_popescu: so it builds on itself

01:15:42 jurov: for that you want to have the outputs indexed somewhere

01:15:46 mircea_popescu: this "transactions bloodline" bs is a fetter.

01:16:03 mircea_popescu: jurov not more than in the sense of knowing which blocks they were in

01:16:26 jurov: okay, then we're on the same page

01:16:53 mircea_popescu: i think we mgiht be. will have to re-re-read this sometime that's not saturday night in between cabaret and strip club.

01:16:56 ben_vulpes: great

01:17:06 decimation: so, if one 'submits' a chain of 1000 transactions, attached to only one tx output, one can imagine that they might not verify all in the same block, depending on the mempool logic

01:17:26 kakobrekla: if transaction bloodline is bs, why are we against bc shelling/pruning

01:17:46 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla because they want to do it stupidly.

01:18:03 mircea_popescu: note that the way proposed above allows one to still verify the whole damned chain from block 1 onwards.

01:18:50 mircea_popescu: in general, we';re not against anything power rangers CLAIM to want to do. it's just that a) thjey never actually do it and b) always break other things 'attempting'

01:18:56 mircea_popescu: and then even more things "fixing" the "attempt"

01:20:43 ben_vulpes: new topic!

01:20:50 ben_vulpes: do bitcoind-node and bitcoind-wallet share a db?

01:21:00 ben_vulpes: s/do/should

01:21:18 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla let me put it another way : the miner output of a block is actually defined by the code as "everything left over once you substract the sum output from the sum input"

01:22:05 mircea_popescu: if this isn't proof that a transaction once included loses its identity i have no idea what would.

01:22:34 jurov: if you need to keep track in which block it is, then it does have identity

01:22:55 jurov: ofc when it is fully spend, then you won't have to do anymore

01:23:12 jurov: *spent

01:23:12 mircea_popescu: jurov afaik you can only "fully spend" inputs.

01:23:29 mircea_popescu: there's a degenerate case where you gift it to miners, but otherwise...

01:23:36 mircea_popescu: once you sign out of an output, it's out.

01:24:14 jurov: we're going in circles

01:24:29 jurov: leave it to later

01:24:34 jurov: goodnight

01:25:16 mircea_popescu: yeah srsly.

01:26:19 jurov: maybe last try: let's have deposits to mpex sprinkled in various blocks, they are unspent outputs

01:26:51 jurov: now you do withdrawal, you need to gather and sign all of them despite it's the same 1Fx address

01:26:58 jurov: that's fine, that's up to wallet

01:27:00 jurov: BUT

01:27:20 jurov: everyone who wants to check the withdraawal is valid, needs to gether them all too

01:27:27 jurov: to check the signatures

01:27:41 ben_vulpes: how are miners doing it?

01:27:52 jurov: they check as above

01:28:03 ben_vulpes: so they actually troll through the whole blockchain

01:28:19 mircea_popescu: jurov let's take the following case : on march 15th, 1jurovaddress gets 1 btc. on march 20th, 1jurovaddress gets 1 btc.

01:28:22 jurov: yes, hence the various horrible database turds

01:28:33 mircea_popescu: then on 25th march, 1jurovaddress pays 1 btc.

01:28:47 mircea_popescu: now, which btc is spent through this process is not established by you.

01:28:50 ben_vulpes: !up buttonwood_

01:28:51 mircea_popescu: but by miners.

01:29:01 jurov: nope

01:29:08 mircea_popescu: all you establish is you have 1 btc left

01:29:12 jurov: nope

01:29:16 mircea_popescu: otherwise, they sort and spend the 15th btc.

01:29:34 jurov: nope

01:29:39 mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> jurov i thought we were discussing bitcoin as a spec, rather than bitcoin as a hack. <<

01:29:47 mircea_popescu: srsly, what are we doing here!

01:30:09 ben_vulpes: i'm talking about the reference implementation.

01:30:18 ben_vulpes: what miners do is...unknowable?

01:30:26 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes is this "bitcoin as it should be" or "bitcoin as it is to be inferred from current codebase"

01:30:31 jurov: well mircea, then make a spec. many people unsuccessfully tried various mixing proposals that were supposed to do what you propose

01:30:46 jurov: maybe monero has it, dunno

01:30:58 jurov: but it hasnt' anything with bitcoin then

01:30:58 mircea_popescu: honestly i thought this is what the topic was.

01:31:03 ben_vulpes: but you're saying that if i cook up a transaction that has 1march29th as an input, the miners should actually rewrite that to use 1march15th as an input?

01:31:09 ben_vulpes: how is my signature even valid in that scenario?

01:31:27 ben_vulpes: perhaps i don't understand what all gets signed. more than likely.

01:31:33 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes nah. im just saying, if it's ambiguous, then it's ambiguous.

01:31:45 jurov: it was never ambiguous

01:32:08 jurov: nor there was successful attempt to make it so so far

01:32:08 mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> once you sign out of an output, it's out. < o.O

01:32:09 ben_vulpes: if i want to spend my low-priority outputs, that's my problem.

01:32:41 mircea_popescu: jurov weren't you proposing that *somehow* there's ambiguous outputs as the entire point of what you were saying ?

01:32:49 ben_vulpes: much like if you want a > 1m transaction that's your problem

01:33:06 jurov: mircea where?

01:33:25 mircea_popescu: <jurov> now you do withdrawal, you need to gather and sign all of them despite it's the same 1Fx address << it's whjat i took this to introduce.

01:33:37 mircea_popescu: no srsly, we will have to revisit this topic later.

01:34:29 jurov: it's not ambigouous, *you*, means your wallet picks up individual deposits

01:34:38 jurov: makes a withdrawal out of them

01:34:49 jurov: and no miner ever has a say in which ones

01:35:43 mircea_popescu: but if they are different outputs, included in variuous blocks... they're verifiable by those blocks... ?

01:35:48 mircea_popescu: mebbe i dun understand what the problem is.

01:35:58 jurov: no, they're verifiable by themselves

01:36:07 jurov: regardless if they are in blocks

01:36:14 mircea_popescu: 1 btc from block 5, 1.5 btc also from block 5, 2 btc from block 6 -> 4.5 btc to 1derp

01:37:04 jurov: ^yes now that transaction would list both inputs from block 5

01:37:13 mircea_popescu: right, different outputs for that matter.

01:37:28 mircea_popescu: but the reason you know they're valid outputs is that block 5 is a valid block.

01:37:44 mircea_popescu: the reason ytou know block 5 is a valid block IS that they were valid outputs, or was at the time, but this is a separate topic.

01:37:48 jurov: "valid" and "confirmed" are two things

01:37:52 mircea_popescu: see ? that's the whole thing. that these two are separate.

01:37:53 mircea_popescu: well yes!

01:38:19 jurov: you can have valid unconfirmed transactions, even valid tx that spend unconfirmed transactions

01:38:29 mircea_popescu: sure.

01:38:35 mircea_popescu: but once in a block, all you can have is a confirmed block.

01:38:52 jurov: check that is it valid is done by checking all the inputs' singatures

01:38:59 mircea_popescu: you can't have "these are the valid and these are the invalid txn of block 6"

01:39:05 jurov: check that it is verified is done by checking it's in block somewhere

01:39:06 mircea_popescu: that is true but also irrelevant!

01:39:13 mircea_popescu: right.

01:39:26 mircea_popescu: maybe the reason we've talked so long about this is because we're saying the same thing/

01:40:08 jurov: maybe. the issue was the need to track unspent outputs, regardless of

01:40:18 jurov: whether they are mined or not

01:40:53 ben_vulpes: and all of this because i asked about what should bear responsibility for creating and signing transactions.

01:41:36 jurov: right. and even if node doesn't create txs itself, i'm asking about verifying whatever txs flying around

01:41:48 jurov: *are

01:43:45 jurov: ok, see you later

01:49:10 mircea_popescu: going at it the other way, consider this discussion :

01:49:13 mircea_popescu: A. I own 500 btc.

01:49:17 mircea_popescu: B. I don't believe you.

01:49:41 mircea_popescu: A. Here's proof i control address X, and here's a payment of 500 btc to it *included in block Y*

01:49:43 mircea_popescu: B. A, ok.

01:51:12 mircea_popescu: what's being verified is a) control of the address in question and b) bitcoin feeding it included in a block.

01:52:25 mircea_popescu: and now time for me to leave you in teh company of pantsless gal. http://40.media.tumblr.com/30be7e529761c4abe5e30f096eadbe75/tumblr_nhrrym8nc71tkm6r8o1_1280.jpg

01:52:26 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1tc0LYs )

02:02:27 decimation: !up buttonwood_

02:02:38 decimation: buttonwood_: do you work for the economist?

02:03:19 buttonwood_: nope, why do you ask

02:03:51 decimation: there's a semi-anonymous column there by the same name?

02:04:03 mats: seems ddosbot has been powered down

02:07:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2744 @ 0.00049181 = 1.3495 BTC [+] {2}

02:08:36 buttonwood_: I've been really interested in applying the smart contract technology to bitcoin-otc. Are there currently any active smart contracts or oracles doing escrow trading on bitcoin irc ?

02:12:01 mats: its not a real thing, buttonwood_.

02:12:25 mats: hasn't been done, won't be done.

02:12:32 buttonwood_: @mats what's not?

02:12:37 buttonwood_: why not

02:12:44 mats: 'smart contract technology'.

02:13:13 mats: because 'hard ai' doesn't exist yet.

02:13:45 buttonwood_: what about a multi sig oracle

02:13:53 mats: all extant projects purporting to be 'smart contract technology' is a scam. like ethereum.

02:14:16 mats: look, you can't offload the complex business of trust to anything but a human.

02:14:31 mats: can't be done. deal with people you trust or don't do business, full stop.

02:14:59 buttonwood_: but the trust can be drastically reduced

02:15:07 buttonwood_: multi sig is a perfect example

02:15:51 mats: multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model

02:16:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64709 @ 0.00049611 = 32.1028 BTC [+] {4}

02:16:37 mats: sack up and take responsibility for your actions.

02:17:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59891 @ 0.00048544 = 29.0735 BTC [-] {4}

02:17:31 mats: offloading due diligence and trying to use technology as a crutch to paper over deficiencies in your business relationship sounds suspiciously like the old world way of doing things

02:18:02 buttonwood_: There has to be a better way to do otc trades tho. I can't believe that trusting somebody on bitcoin-otc with a good rating is the optimal solution

02:21:10 mats: use the ratings and talk to the raters

02:21:27 buttonwood_: @mats do you work on any bitcoin related projects currently?

02:21:45 mats: nope

02:22:40 ben_vulpes: <mats> use the ratings and talk to the raters << this. again and again, this.

02:22:56 ben_vulpes: buttonwood_: you can't trust people that you don't trust. end of story.

02:23:02 ben_vulpes: trust is built over time, and can't be abstracted out.

02:23:13 ben_vulpes: !gettrust assbot buttonwood_

02:23:13 assbot: buttonwood_ is not registered in WoT.

02:23:18 ben_vulpes: ;;gettrust buttonwood_

02:23:18 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user ben_vulpes to user buttonwood_: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ben_vulpes&dest=buttonwood_ | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=buttonwood_ | Rated since: never

02:23:48 ben_vulpes: you're clearly in a good position to be talking about how business should be done around here.

02:23:54 mats: man, this sicilian lentil soup is fucking amazing

02:23:54 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

02:24:13 ben_vulpes: ;;echo /msg assbot amazing

02:24:13 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

02:24:13 gribble: /msg assbot amazing

02:24:13 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

02:24:32 ben_vulpes: ;;echo /msg ben_vulpes hello

02:24:32 gribble: /msg ben_vulpes hello

02:24:35 ben_vulpes: boo

02:24:45 *: ben_vulpes is an incompetent hacker

02:25:08 mats: 21:15:50 <+mats> multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model << in the way you mean to use it, that is

02:30:12 buttonwood_: for example, futures and options are largely inexistent in bitcoin. Mainly because of the trust involved if you were to sell me an option. If we used an oracle to do multi sig escrow or step in when there's a dispute the oracle could ensure both sides make good on the contract

02:30:34 ben_vulpes: there was an options exchange for a while, buttonwood_.

02:32:34 buttonwood_: which one MPOE?

02:33:19 ben_vulpes: that'd be the one, yeah.

02:33:22 ben_vulpes: !up buttonwood_

02:33:55 buttonwood_: thx

02:34:56 ben_vulpes: anyways, there was one. are you aware of why it shut down?

02:37:54 ben_vulpes: https://twitter.com/_youhadonejob/status/559174647309021187 << this town

02:37:56 assbot: Let's hope no one got hit. http://t.co/3tfuQiAbAv

02:38:09 ben_vulpes: anyways, buttonwood_ are you still interested in working this thread?

02:38:49 Pierre_Rochard: buttonwood_ Mainly because of the trust involved if you were to sell me an option. < I’d say it’s mainly because the volatility and discount rate are going to be completely out of whack until fiat is destroyed

02:39:52 buttonwood_: yes they would certainly be expensive

02:40:49 Pierre_Rochard: hence, “largely inexistent”

02:41:28 []bot: Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Gold to drop under $1000 before March 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1101/ Odds: 16(Y):84(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.30387905 BTC. Current weight: 61,285.

02:41:50 ben_vulpes: buttonwood_: ^^ that bet right there is a good example of best-in-class contracts.

02:41:54 ben_vulpes: arbitrated by...humans.

02:43:00 Pierre_Rochard: ^ exactly, the difference between a computer oracle and a human arbitrator approaches nil over time

02:45:13 Pierre_Rochard: ;;gettrust buttonwood_

02:45:13 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user Pierre_Rochard to user buttonwood_: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=Pierre_Rochard&dest=buttonwood_ | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=buttonwood_ | Rated since: never

02:46:16 ben_vulpes: assuming they're any good of course

03:24:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00049024 = 10.7363 BTC [+] {2}

03:38:00 mats: mircea_popescu: i've observed that the number of cases meeting the parameters in the courts-circus project are very scarce: i've read every case involving the judges nubbins` listed, with the keyword privacy on Westlaw, which yielded about 90 cases

03:39:10 mats: mircea_popescu: but there are 11 judges with 0 cases and 12 with just 1. i'm now going through and reading every case involving USG, i've cleared ten judges this way, but the number of cases i've been able to find have been fairly low in number

03:39:30 mats: mircea_popescu: are you interested in loosening the requirements?

03:43:28 mats: i figured i'd give it a shot before proceeding, i've put at least 400 hours in already and i believe there may not be quite a lot of useful data at the end if i continue this way

03:43:56 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00097526 = 2.4382 BTC [-] {4}

04:18:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10459 @ 0.00049322 = 5.1586 BTC [+] {2}

04:19:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6191 @ 0.00050758 = 3.1424 BTC [+]

04:21:33 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00096062 = 2.4016 BTC [-] {10}

04:42:32 mircea_popescu: <buttonwood_> I've been really interested in applying the smart contract technology to bitcoin-otc. Are there currently any active smart contracts or oracles doing escrow trading on bitcoin irc ? << no. people do thje trust calculation by hand.

04:43:02 mircea_popescu: <mats> multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model << mats is like the oracle on the topic now!

04:43:31 mircea_popescu: buttonwood_> There has to be a better way to do otc trades tho. << nope. isn't, for provable reason. isn't happening in practice, either.

04:44:12 mircea_popescu: !up coderwill

04:45:35 mircea_popescu: davout http://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2t7k6w/the_emperor_is_buttnaked_btc_block_size/ << apparently you got haters

04:45:36 assbot: The Emperor is Buttnaked (BTC block size discussion with Gavin) : Buttcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1CpvB1r )

04:46:28 mircea_popescu: <mats> mircea_popescu: are you interested in loosening the requirements? << perhaps. do you see meaningful expansions ?

04:56:08 decimation: at the present time, it seems to me that bitcoin derivatives do not serve a real market need

04:56:57 mircea_popescu: well, public facing ones anyway.

04:57:20 decimation: yeah. the public can make bitbets; that's probably mostly what they want anyway

05:21:49 mats: mats is like the oracle on the topic now! << not sure if you're criticizing what i said there

05:22:34 mats: perhaps. do you see meaningful expansions ? << how about the production of communications to include voice, where there is a written record of it? e.g. transcript of wiretap log

05:22:53 mats: i was hoping you'd have a better idea tbh.

05:51:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4257 @ 0.00050758 = 2.1608 BTC [+]

06:02:37 asciilifeform: !up Alina-malina

06:13:58 diametric: http://vimeo.com/74025061?1

06:13:59 assbot: Oculus Rift TV SPOT on Vimeo ... ( http://bit.ly/1uKvmxn )

06:14:12 diametric: Somehow I've never seen this before.

06:17:18 mircea_popescu: mats was not criticizing, was approving.

06:18:08 mircea_popescu: how about the production of communications to include voice << im not sure right off what that'd do.

06:23:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7268 @ 0.00050758 = 3.6891 BTC [+]

06:25:30 asciilifeform: all you can verify, both the most and the least you can verify, are BLOCKS. << yes.

06:25:49 asciilifeform: now is the time for folks who have not actually bothered to read the fscking source, to confess.

06:26:04 asciilifeform: srsly it's finitely long. just do it.

06:27:04 asciilifeform: you might need a decade to find all the weird, quasi-exploitable hair, but to get a basic understanding of how the thing works - is another matter. very doable.

06:27:53 asciilifeform: exhortation, from now on, abbreviated for convenience, 'RTFT' (read the fucking turd.)

06:28:31 mircea_popescu: http://www.dogeillionaires.com << who did this one ?!

06:28:32 assbot: Why Dogecoin is a scam, why the people pushing it are assholes, why Business Insider is a contemptible piece of shit, why anyone who ever worked for it will be dancing in the street for nickels and why Kevin Rose is a fuckwit. Plus other considerations. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1uKxtRQ )

06:29:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i didn't actually.

06:29:35 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/#comment-111701 << 'confirmed' << i ponied up on 12/31, where's the 'confirmed'

06:29:35 assbot: The conference, third edition pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1uKxzJ3 )

06:29:38 mircea_popescu: i suppose it is a testament to my scholarship that i can actually get away with outsourcing the actual readsing ?

06:29:56 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're in teh list arentcha ? he asked me specifically to confirm. you're also confirmed!

06:30:03 asciilifeform: aha, did not check

06:30:05 *: asciilifeform lazy

06:30:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i sorta assumed that you either read it, or had it read to you, or wrote compatible gadget

06:30:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because you showed symptoms of understanding correctly how it works

06:30:46 mircea_popescu: nah, just, i know what qs to ask of people. "go read it and i'll ask you things"

06:31:09 ben_vulpes: amusingly, i was confirmed without paying.

06:31:33 mircea_popescu: i was also lazy.

06:31:34 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes guest speaker ?

06:31:35 asciilifeform: lol

06:31:49 ben_vulpes: almos

06:31:51 ben_vulpes: almost*

06:32:02 mircea_popescu: nah, ben_vulpes only scammed participant. neglected to send 2.x ended up sending 8.x

06:32:03 ben_vulpes: too bad i'm too bad of a scammer to pull it off

06:32:04 mircea_popescu: tru story.

06:32:13 ben_vulpes: worst story.

06:32:17 ben_vulpes: hatchu.

06:32:59 ben_vulpes: for the record, attendance declarations are only binding on those who wish to attend, not his unimpeachable lordship mircea_popescu

06:33:20 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: lol i sorta assume he'll be there.

06:33:37 mircea_popescu: wouldn't that be the pirate of all time

06:33:48 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i refer of course to the quoted price of attendance.

06:34:30 ben_vulpes: re dogillionaires, that was fluffypony

06:34:32 ben_vulpes: !s bitcoinate

06:34:33 assbot: 23445 results for 'bitcoinate' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bitcoinate

06:34:48 ben_vulpes: mthreat this is almost worse than useless

06:35:18 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i have been repeating, like mantra, 'stemming search must die'

06:35:23 asciilifeform: because it must.

06:35:54 asciilifeform: it simply needs to get off the planet. it is an instrument of muppetry, plain and simple.

06:36:08 ben_vulpes: on a previous topic, eg bitcoinating

06:36:11 asciilifeform: does 'grep' include stemming? nein.

06:36:15 ben_vulpes: here's a proposed list

06:36:17 mircea_popescu: a kk

06:36:24 ben_vulpes: - download and validate blocks

06:36:33 ben_vulpes: translate block height to block hash

06:36:39 ben_vulpes: - translate block height to block hash

06:36:50 ben_vulpes: - return the height of the current best-known chain

06:36:57 ben_vulpes: - return a block corresponding to a given hash

06:37:08 ben_vulpes: - relay transactions to the network

06:37:17 ben_vulpes: (fin)

06:37:34 asciilifeform: seems like it all sits inside 'validate blocks', no ?

06:37:52 asciilifeform: so the postulates aren't orthogonal.

06:38:03 ben_vulpes: true enough

06:38:12 ben_vulpes: but there are subspaces, if you'll allow the floppiness of wording.

06:38:37 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the reason, incidentally, i didn';t read it myself is i dun trust my rudimentary c understanding.

06:38:38 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: this is just the kind of manual which ought to live in a 'lions book' commentary on source.

06:38:47 mircea_popescu: best have ppl that spoeak the language tlel you what the paper says.

06:38:49 ben_vulpes: f'r instance, the thing should cough up on the command line, a block if given a hash

06:40:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's actually heavily idiomatic cpp. with extensive use of 'high level construct' libs like 'boost' ('iterate', various data structure diddles, etc.)

06:40:12 mircea_popescu: aham

06:40:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rather painful to read for anyone who is not in a daily habit of birthing similarly flavoured monstrosities

06:40:45 *: asciilifeform had to open a book

06:42:36 mircea_popescu: "let' smake c more like java on wheels"

06:42:38 ben_vulpes: idiomatic cpp aside, thoughts on the list?

06:42:51 fluffypony: mircea_popescu: how can you forget my dogeillionaires redirect!

06:42:53 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes 2nd step, what's it mean ?

06:43:06 mircea_popescu: fluffypony ;/ so many lulz, so little head

06:44:04 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: if i know that the most recent block was of height N, I can ask bitcoind-node for the hash of the block at height N

06:44:12 ben_vulpes: (or N-1, or N-M)

06:44:19 mircea_popescu: this is an ambigous request.

06:44:27 ben_vulpes: because of multiple chains?

06:44:30 mircea_popescu: "on whjich chain"

06:44:30 mircea_popescu: yes

06:44:35 ben_vulpes: hm.

06:44:49 ben_vulpes: ofc. central concern, this.

06:44:58 mircea_popescu: the notion of N must be subordinate ot the blocks only identifier, its hash

06:45:20 mircea_popescu: (another bit of braindamage th epower rangers forced upon the world, other than "historical transaction validity" as a thing, is "block as aheight"

06:45:33 ben_vulpes: i see it.

06:45:38 ben_vulpes: "there is only one chain" as well.

06:45:44 mircea_popescu: this is nonsense of the first order, an utter antipattern, and iof they weren't stupid as frogs i'd suspect its deliberate

06:45:52 ben_vulpes: "antipattern" << lol

06:45:54 mircea_popescu: like sending you to hunt for snipes so yo ucan't be a huner)

06:45:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12800 @ 0.00051016 = 6.53 BTC [+] {2}

06:47:13 mircea_popescu: think of it as "chain of pointers" and now tell me who the fuck doesn't flunk the idiot that actually keeps an enumeration array for the chain

06:47:29 mircea_popescu: best way to crash undebuggably ever.

06:48:36 ben_vulpes: then this implies a requirement that a bitcoind-node know about and be able to return data about the various chains of which it knows.

06:49:47 mircea_popescu: depends what are you trying to do /

06:50:25 ben_vulpes: spec a node, i guess.

06:50:38 mircea_popescu: with the list i mean.

06:52:34 asciilifeform: chain of pointers << tree.

06:52:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right.

06:53:05 ben_vulpes: if you'll forgive the glib response, figure out what can be riven from the satoshi codebase

06:53:07 asciilifeform: (satoshi did not go in for book-learning, it seems, esp. re: data structures, but that doesn't mean that we have to forget school)

06:53:21 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no asciilifeform put it in proper terms. it's a tree.

06:53:34 mircea_popescu: you can, if you wish, implement a function that returns "equibranches" on a tree.

06:53:39 mircea_popescu: but this is a secondary consideration.

06:55:05 ben_vulpes: secondary to?

06:55:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it does, unfortunately, mean that they who did forget / never had what to forget can pass for "geniuses"

06:56:19 mircea_popescu: but it is what it is.

06:56:29 asciilifeform: wai wat

06:56:33 asciilifeform: the pleasures of reinvention ?

06:57:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, just the power ranger lot. they'd have (i optimistically assume) been excluded / self out-selected if the satoshi actually understood programming.

06:57:40 *: ben_vulpes is but a humble student of the trade

06:57:59 mircea_popescu: a codebase that's written by a monkey is more liable to attact "do-ocracy" monkeys than one written by a sane person.

06:58:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hard to say. dead rat and dead lion get eaten by crows just the same

06:58:16 mircea_popescu: also true. i guess it may drop here.

06:58:21 asciilifeform: or...

06:58:28 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes secondary to whatever it is you're doing.

06:58:33 asciilifeform: i can picture a surface so mirror-smooth that barnacles cannot stick.

06:58:39 asciilifeform: but not often have seen this in life.

06:58:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform emacs, right ? :D

06:59:20 asciilifeform: obligatory: https://gist.github.com/pete/665971

06:59:22 assbot: Various implementations of the 'cat' command, for comparison. ... ( http://bit.ly/1C02pQ8 )

06:59:35 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/ea602c535d351e849b76fe966a013294/tumblr_nbhlmf6IBJ1sb822ho1_500.jpg pic related.

06:59:36 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1C02qUc )

07:00:05 mircea_popescu: 782 22684 gnu-cat.c o.O

07:01:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11350 @ 0.00051484 = 5.8434 BTC [+]

07:02:05 mircea_popescu: anyway, so gnu's written in php. what's new.

07:04:00 mircea_popescu: static char line_buf[LINE_COUNTER_BUF_LEN] = { ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', ' ', '0', '\t', '\0' };

07:04:03 mircea_popescu: ok i've seen enough

07:04:17 mircea_popescu: unless the number of lines is larger than 999999. */

07:04:41 ben_vulpes: my eyes :(

07:05:31 *: asciilifeform linked this for a reason.

07:05:48 *: mircea_popescu is brb, making 999999 line files.

07:05:52 nubbins`: https://i.imgur.com/FYSrEMp.jpg

07:05:53 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1C03zuW )

07:05:59 nubbins`: found it

07:06:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: go straight for MAXINT.

07:06:18 mircea_popescu: nubbins` i can tell by some of the pixels.

07:06:55 mircea_popescu: http://40.media.tumblr.com/884ac86273060b7f8a5acbd3df900483/tumblr_nh3ii8btd11sb822ho1_500.jpg <<< HANDCARVED

07:07:24 nubbins`: heh

07:08:02 ben_vulpes: i discovered recently that "baby" carrots aren't so much "lathed" as they are knocked around in a conical abrasive vessel

07:08:06 ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: you flappin

07:10:56 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/#comment-111706 << ne1 know this guy ?

07:10:56 assbot: The conference, third edition pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1C04wU3 )

07:12:36 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: http://www.saucal.com/

07:12:37 assbot: Web Design, Development and Inbound Marketing in Calgary | Saucal ... ( http://bit.ly/1C04Phv )

07:12:44 mircea_popescu: ok... ?

07:12:59 *: ben_vulpes shrugs

07:13:08 ben_vulpes: 'tis all i got

07:13:19 ben_vulpes: perhaps a lonely registered participant?

07:13:20 nubbins`: http://hyperfool.com/ufcknubbins.mp4

07:13:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9250 @ 0.00051512 = 4.7649 BTC [+] {2}

07:16:28 mircea_popescu: so what's going to be your next victim, nubbins` ?

07:18:09 nubbins`: a bowl of cereal

07:18:45 fluffypony: lol

07:18:47 mod6: maybe it's this guy: http://www.wired.com/2013/10/robocoin_here/

07:18:49 assbot: World's First Bitcoin ATM Arrives at Coffee Shop, Goes Live Tomorrow | WIRED ... ( http://bit.ly/1C05G1Y )

07:19:40 mod6: oh nm.

07:19:57 mircea_popescu: the fucking headlines these people are doing

07:20:06 fluffypony: Nubbins`: you should launch FNC, FuckNubbinsCoin

07:20:10 mircea_popescu: winchel would chisel them into little egg supports.

07:20:11 fluffypony: You already have a logo

07:20:12 mod6: well then theres this: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/mitchelldemeter

07:20:14 assbot: Mitchell Demeter | LinkedIn ... ( http://bit.ly/1C05Xls )

07:20:25 nubbins`: fluffypony i lel'd heartily at the video

07:20:26 mircea_popescu: yeah nubbins` print it on a square piece of cloth

07:20:31 mircea_popescu: "artisan"

07:20:33 nubbins`: big reveal at the start: lasered art in wood

07:20:41 mod6: Cointrader exchange, etc? *shrug*

07:20:48 nubbins`: then he fucks with it with his dremel w/ the sandpaper attachment (??)

07:21:06 nubbins`: sprays water on it at one point

07:21:12 ben_vulpes: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitchellcallahan << mod6 i found this one

07:21:13 assbot: Mitchell Callahan | LinkedIn ... ( http://bit.ly/1C068Nx )

07:21:13 nubbins`: y'know, like you do with wood

07:21:32 fluffypony: Only watermelon ivory

07:22:01 ben_vulpes: ah, he's a Joseph David stoolie

07:22:20 ben_vulpes: how was the strip club, hanbot?

07:22:23 mircea_popescu: joseph david ?!

07:22:28 ben_vulpes: David Joseph?

07:22:32 ben_vulpes: CaVirtEx

07:22:43 ben_vulpes: the one who did a runner with a Havelock "raise"

07:22:51 ben_vulpes: heh. "one".

07:23:47 mircea_popescu: lol

07:23:55 mircea_popescu: wait. wasn't that kumala that did the vtx thing ?

07:24:19 ben_vulpes: oh is there a CaVirtEx and VirtEx?

07:24:33 mircea_popescu: yes.

07:24:37 ben_vulpes: nm

07:25:21 ben_vulpes: ah it's the whole gang

07:25:26 mod6: ben_vulpes: oh my bad. my eyes are bleary.

07:25:38 ben_vulpes: mod6: my contacts are gumming up too :)

07:26:47 mircea_popescu: CAVirtex, Canada?s largest and oldest Bitcoin online exchange, is facing a potential class action lawsuit to the tune of $884,880 CAD. The alleged losses were incurred by the lawsuit-bringers after the company offered 10% of its shares for sale on the cryptocurrency-based asset exchange, Havelock Investments then stopped listing the stock by the end of 2013.

07:26:55 mircea_popescu: apparently it is... both

07:26:56 mircea_popescu: o.o

07:27:14 ben_vulpes: wait, cavirtex is virtex?

07:27:20 ben_vulpes: was i right for once?

07:27:25 ben_vulpes: lol will wonders never cease

07:27:29 pete_dushenski: pretty sure ya

07:27:29 mircea_popescu: no. they're different, however,

07:27:32 mircea_popescu: they both scammed.

07:27:34 pete_dushenski: lol oh

07:27:51 fluffypony: Different scams

07:27:51 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: i've met mitch callahan a couple times irl

07:27:55 mircea_popescu: these guys "delisted" at a 25% buyback that they didn't really honor

07:28:09 fluffypony: Also not to be confused with Virturex

07:28:35 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/print-page-cryptostocks-vircurex-vcx-going-public.htm << i was thinking of vircurex tho

07:28:36 assbot: Print Page - [CRYPTOSTOCKS] Vircurex [VCX] - Going public ... ( http://bit.ly/1C07kR7 )

07:28:44 mircea_popescu: fluffypony right

07:29:22 mircea_popescu: what do we do once they simply start repeating names ?

07:29:29 pete_dushenski: 2.0!

07:29:33 ben_vulpes: can we stop caring about scams yet?

07:29:38 mircea_popescu: BFL the "Exchange" , pirate the asic manufacturer, woodcutter the ponzi scheme...

07:29:46 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: almost

07:29:46 ben_vulpes: srsly, woodchopper?

07:29:51 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes only if you're willing to cut noobs entirely loose

07:30:10 ben_vulpes: they're already cut loose. can't get into b-a

07:30:20 ben_vulpes: no crusading valkyrie

07:30:38 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: anything in particular you'd like to know about your interested participant for the conference?

07:30:49 mircea_popescu: i thought nubbins was contemplating a genderbendin' surgical intervention.

07:31:01 ben_vulpes: only counts if it comes with wings

07:31:04 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski nothing in particular, just the general.

07:31:07 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes and a spear.

07:31:31 ben_vulpes: i thought he was going under the knife to get rid of the spear

07:31:34 ben_vulpes: "dick surgery"?

07:31:47 nubbins`: heh

07:31:53 mircea_popescu: oh

07:31:59 fluffypony: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934713.0

07:32:00 assbot: Step by step. How To Scam People With New Ann. Coin ?? ... ( http://bit.ly/1C07OXo )

07:32:03 fluffypony: Best thread

07:32:12 mircea_popescu: i think he has been delaborately confusing us to gain time

07:32:21 mircea_popescu: WHERES THE VIDEOS NUBBINZ

07:32:24 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: mitch runs a little coding shop, they do some web design as well

07:32:33 mircea_popescu: you know him /

07:32:37 nubbins`: he actually posted the video hey

07:32:38 pete_dushenski: his shop did the new website for cavirtex

07:32:43 nubbins`: http://hyperfool.com/ufcknubbins.mp4

07:32:48 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: a bit

07:32:48 nubbins`: pretty rough watch

07:32:55 nubbins`: i'd recommend someone else watch it and give you a summary

07:33:14 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: we've met twice, once for drinks, once for coffee

07:33:23 pete_dushenski: he lives in calgary

07:33:28 ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: https://www.cavirtex.com/home << but but that's the old site!

07:33:29 assbot: Canadian Virtual Exchange ... ( http://bit.ly/1C082On )

07:33:40 pete_dushenski: actually he might've moved to toronto but no matter

07:33:40 ben_vulpes: 100% canadian lol

07:33:46 ben_vulpes: gets me every time

07:33:51 pete_dushenski: he's a programmer

07:34:03 pete_dushenski: i poked him to figure out pgp, he did

07:34:04 ben_vulpes: oh god not programmers

07:34:16 pete_dushenski: i don't think he's done his 6 months tho, not seriously

07:34:45 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: new logo!

07:34:48 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes shut up and eat your cult programmeas.

07:34:59 ben_vulpes: i ain't eating programmers

07:35:07 ben_vulpes: no females in that set

07:35:19 mircea_popescu: i ate a female programmers

07:35:35 ben_vulpes: a plural of one?

07:35:39 mircea_popescu: better than male. no hairs.

07:35:46 mircea_popescu: not even on neck.

07:35:49 ben_vulpes: just stay clear of her heirs

07:35:50 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: anyways, mitch sends me the off pgp-gram, and i recently sent him to the fraudsters jobs board

07:36:18 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes her heirettes might toss good salad ?

07:36:19 pete_dushenski: then he said "oh, what about this conference?" and i told him to leave a comment if he was interested

07:36:21 pete_dushenski: looks like he did

07:36:26 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski ah i c

07:36:33 ben_vulpes: herr heiress!

07:36:41 ben_vulpes: that's how the staff'll address my she-spawn

07:36:49 ben_vulpes: aw i fucked the genders there didn't i

07:37:09 mircea_popescu: hopefully just one.

07:37:16 ben_vulpes: YOU KNOW IT

07:37:21 mircea_popescu: it'd be heiress herrin

07:37:30 mircea_popescu: maybe she could be called herring

07:37:37 mircea_popescu: then it'd be heiress Herrin Herring

07:37:48 ben_vulpes: i'm rarin to go harin' after herrin herring

07:38:51 ben_vulpes: anyways, how does this work in practice: 2 mining pools release a block (B, C), building off the prev (A) - do miners arbitrarily choose which child block to continue building on?

07:39:08 mircea_popescu: from the protocol pov, it's arbitrary.

07:39:21 ben_vulpes: in practice though

07:39:41 ben_vulpes: do ops frantically get on the horn to get their block into the long chain?

07:39:41 mircea_popescu: in practice either whichever they hear first or whichever has better likely outcomes

07:39:47 mircea_popescu: yup

07:39:53 mircea_popescu: point in case, march fork.

07:40:21 hanbot: <ben_vulpes> how was the strip club, hanbot? << no buttered strip clubs for me, thanks, i'm off to play the grand piano

07:40:41 ben_vulpes: what actually happened there? i thought the forked chain was rejected?

07:40:50 ben_vulpes: hanbot: *buttered* strip clubs?!

07:40:57 ben_vulpes: what strange am i missing out on

07:41:00 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: come to think of it, mitch has been by assets before but under a pseudonym

07:41:04 pete_dushenski: ;;seen menahem

07:41:05 gribble: menahem was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 11 weeks, 3 days, 16 hours, 22 minutes, and 13 seconds ago: <menahem> lemme verify my id again. brb, heading to an office space. gracias for the welcome.

07:41:07 ben_vulpes: ;;later tell thestrin1puller ffs thestringpuller fix your bouncer

07:41:08 gribble: The operation succeeded.

07:41:16 pete_dushenski: ^kid's not a joo even

07:41:43 mircea_popescu: " do ops frantically get on the horn to get their block into the long chain?" << through that process.

07:42:38 hanbot: <mircea_popescu> then it'd be heiress Herrin Herring << who opens up an earing shop, obviously

07:42:42 ben_vulpes: the fork-block didn't make it into the main chain, correct?

07:43:45 mircea_popescu: you're talking of ambiguous things as if they were specified.

07:43:52 mircea_popescu: "the winner of world war three was a good man, right ?

07:43:59 mircea_popescu: "totally"

07:45:50 mircea_popescu: hanbot hopefully she's earnin' with it.

07:48:12 ben_vulpes: "main chain" << the ambiguous bit?

07:49:51 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/25_notes-on-increasing-the-maximum-bitcoin-block-size-or-why-it-aint-happenin.html << hey ben_vulpes did gavin ever respond to that one ? << hey this one actually doesn't read too poorly a few months later

07:49:52 assbot: Notes on Increasing the Maximum Bitcoin Block Size (or, "Why it ain't happenin'") ... ( http://bit.ly/1C0aT9M )

07:53:27 mircea_popescu: yehn

07:53:44 mircea_popescu: pity you're not an economist like oleg andreev

07:53:54 mircea_popescu: or whatever other random css expert gavin found on fiverr.

07:54:38 ben_vulpes: amusingly, oleg andreev abandoned the only decent gui client for 'git' on os x

07:54:58 ben_vulpes: it's amusing to watch everyone manually patch the closed source turdball to cope with each successive os x upgrade

07:55:07 ben_vulpes: in order to do what precisely with bitcoin?

07:55:13 ben_vulpes: certainly not hang out with the asshats.

07:56:06 mircea_popescu: man on stationary bike isn't catching any trains.

07:57:30 punkman: http://hyperfool.com/ufcknubbins.mp4 < lol this guy, 1 hour to carve one huge N and he can't even do a straight line. just digging on the wood with all the wrong rotarytool bits.

07:57:57 mircea_popescu: !up metsuno

07:58:08 pete_dushenski: metsuno: get a cloak eh

07:58:14 mircea_popescu: punkman he did it deliberately so it's artistic and unique

07:58:16 mircea_popescu: doh

07:58:28 mircea_popescu: there's a book "luxury rotary bits management" you should read.

07:58:33 pete_dushenski: unless web access is immune from ddosbot, i dunno if it is

07:58:53 mircea_popescu: i thought the ddos derp crapped out earlier.

07:59:12 mircea_popescu: anyway, im off. take it easy ye buncha socialists.

07:59:14 ben_vulpes: from hampshire?

07:59:27 ben_vulpes: metsuno you're going to get expelled hanging out here

07:59:39 nubbins`: hm

07:59:47 metsuno: sorry

07:59:49 metsuno: I'm shy

07:59:57 pete_dushenski: laters mp

08:00:06 ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: how's the ride?

08:00:14 nubbins`: punkman i'm not sure why nobody is mentioning that the design is already laser etched into the fuckin piece when the video starts

08:00:25 nubbins`: then the guy just runs his dremel around the already-engraved letter

08:00:26 nubbins`: like...

08:00:33 pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: parked for the weekend

08:00:40 nubbins`: maybe the man is mentally ill

08:00:48 pete_dushenski: it's unbelievably warm here

08:00:50 punkman: nubbins, oh it looked like pencil, but then I wondered about the outer circles

08:00:56 pete_dushenski: like +6C

08:01:12 ben_vulpes: nubbins` this comes back to the trouble of identifying malice vs incompetence

08:01:44 nubbins`: punkman fullscreen that shit

08:02:03 nubbins`: the whole thing is actually etched before the camera is turned on

08:02:17 nubbins`: i'm tempted to go get the design laser etched onto a piece myself

08:02:24 nubbins`: and create my own video of me dremelling it

08:02:41 nubbins`: but that would definitely qualify as "getting out of hand"

08:02:48 punkman: you could do the same job with a dull spoon I think

08:03:06 ben_vulpes: stahp

08:03:07 ben_vulpes: plz

08:03:10 ben_vulpes: plz no buly

08:11:51 ben_vulpes: http://hyperfool.com/ufcknubbins.mp4 << ah shit 1 hour in loving the burns

08:11:59 nubbins`: heh

08:12:18 nubbins`: i'm all "why didn't he laser the entire background if he's gonna do this?"

08:13:50 nubbins`: "o, wait, hand mumble mumble"

08:14:03 nubbins`: did you get to the part where he sprays water on the wood?

08:14:08 ben_vulpes: lol no.

08:14:10 nubbins`: heh

08:14:16 nubbins`: i guess it brings out the grain

08:14:26 nubbins`: much more so than, say, oil

08:14:26 ben_vulpes: i scrubbed to 1 hour in, saw the burns, bailed

08:14:34 nubbins`: yeah heh

08:14:46 nubbins`: the start was v suspenseful

08:14:50 ben_vulpes: nubbins`: it actually shows the grain remarkably well, and nondestructively to boot

08:14:53 ben_vulpes: !up cazalla

08:15:02 ben_vulpes: dafuq's up with your keys, caz?

08:15:07 cazalla: pete_dushenski, you driving around in john voight's car or wut?

08:15:17 ben_vulpes: lol just here for the zingers

08:15:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6800 @ 0.00049708 = 3.3801 BTC [-]

08:15:47 pete_dushenski: cazalla: john's ? mebbe. saddam's ? definitely.

08:15:51 punkman: the end with the laser pointer and text that says "hey first piece I lazered"

08:16:03 pete_dushenski: in fact, i've named my mercedes just that: "saddam"

08:17:07 punkman: "Beyond that, this is the season when i import all my wood to get me through the next year. That means on average i have from 1 to 5 trucks showing up a week, 1 or 2 shipments coming through customs i need to keep on top of, and also a dozen employees to keep track of."

08:17:16 punkman: trucks of wood!

08:17:21 nubbins`: hm

08:17:27 ben_vulpes: i...

08:17:31 ben_vulpes: man

08:17:33 nubbins`: i suspect smoothie from the forums is kinda stupid

08:17:36 cazalla: pete_dushenski, everybody's talk at you but you can't hear a word they're saying.. just driving 'round in saddam's car

08:17:38 ben_vulpes: you guys gotta stop bringing these scams around here

08:17:44 nubbins`: actually, remove "suspect" and "kinda"

08:17:51 nubbins`: and "i" or else it doesn't make sense

08:17:57 ben_vulpes: hahaha

08:18:02 ben_vulpes: just write the regex okay?

08:18:11 nubbins`: ;;google regex.info

08:18:11 gribble: Jeffrey Friedl's Web Sites: http://regex.info/; Jeffrey Friedl's Exif (Image Metadata) Viewer: http://regex.info/exif.cgi; Regular-Expressions.info - Regex Tutorial, Examples and ...: http://www.regular-expressions.info/

08:18:24 nubbins`: ^ quicker than putting chrome into focus

08:18:48 nubbins`: wait that's not right

08:18:56 nubbins`: ;;google regular-expressions.info

08:18:57 gribble: Regular-Expressions.info - Regex Tutorial, Examples and ...: http://www.regular-expressions.info/; Regular Expressions Reference - Regular-Expressions.info: http://www.regular-expressions.info/reference.html; Tutorial - Regular-Expressions.info: http://www.regular-expressions.info/tutorial.html

08:19:03 nubbins`: there

08:19:08 ben_vulpes: man i hate regexen

08:19:13 nubbins`: yeah

08:19:31 nubbins`: powerful, but so is finally fitting a medicine ball in your asshole

08:19:41 *: ben_vulpes blinks

08:19:50 nubbins`: ...so i've heard

08:19:52 ben_vulpes: how does that work

08:19:57 nubbins`: generally only once.

08:19:59 ben_vulpes: do you just sit down slowly?

08:20:14 ben_vulpes: AlexWkz: your cloak is getting applied after you join channels

08:20:20 nubbins`: once it's in, you sit down quite rapidly

08:20:24 punkman: regexp ftw!

08:20:44 nubbins`: AlexWkz try putting your nickserv password into your network settings

08:20:46 nubbins`: or smth

08:20:56 ben_vulpes: don't just stand there, man!

08:20:58 ben_vulpes: do something!

08:21:06 ben_vulpes: anything!

08:21:08 ben_vulpes: it doesn't matter!

08:21:16 punkman: !up AlexWkz

08:21:27 ben_vulpes: oh yeah that

08:21:33 cazalla: so is this 2gb wood carving tutorial worth the dl or does the thread provide enough lulz?

08:21:42 ben_vulpes: nope not worth anything

08:27:46 punkman: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=919373.0

08:27:46 assbot: Users of Bitcoin Core on Linux must not upgrade to the latest version of OpenSSL ... ( http://bit.ly/1JorZiI )

08:28:28 punkman: "In some conceivable but unlikely scenarios, you might see incoming transactions as having 6+ confirmations when the transactions are actually invalid"

08:29:50 punkman: ah two weeks old, pardon me

08:33:30 nubbins`: cazalla no

08:33:35 nubbins`: really 2gb?

08:34:42 punkman: http://pics2.brainparking.com/p442/9/y/8390396py9.jpg

08:34:43 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/18emFRB )

08:40:57 nubbins`: ok

08:41:00 nubbins`: bitspill wins

08:41:10 ben_vulpes: sauce

08:41:28 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=935115.msg10252471#msg10252471

08:41:29 assbot: Videos of WoodCollector Hand Carving: Care of MOB ... ( http://bit.ly/18enYjC )

08:41:37 nubbins`: see quoted text for context

08:41:55 nubbins`: "OK, so he didn't use a laser"

08:42:05 nubbins`: like... dude, are you even having the same conversation as us?

08:42:18 nubbins`: or just copying random words and pasting them into sentences

08:42:23 nubbins`: i officially stop

08:42:35 ben_vulpes: dag

08:42:36 ben_vulpes: please

08:42:59 nubbins`: you could piss in this man's face and tell him his lips are dry, he'd reach for the balm

08:43:18 nubbins`: i regret trying to help

08:43:35 ben_vulpes: well

08:43:37 ben_vulpes: enjoy this instead

08:43:38 ben_vulpes: http://champagne.shithouse.tv/

08:43:39 assbot: champagne ... ( http://bit.ly/1Jou8eg )

08:44:14 nubbins`: that sure is an image

08:44:23 ben_vulpes: sho nuff

08:44:31 ben_vulpes: i'm trying to get a book deal

08:47:12 punkman: http://nymag.com/thecut/2014/02/tinder-makes-its-first-match-in-antarctica.html

08:47:14 assbot: Tinder Makes Its First Match in Antarctica -- The Cut ... ( http://bit.ly/1JouDF5 )

08:50:27 nubbins`: so i have this korg sample sequencer, and it comes with 100 built-in sounds

08:50:40 nubbins`: you have to use an iphone app to load new samples onto it

08:51:38 nubbins`: except they were kind enough to release an SDK, written in C, on github ;o

08:51:38 punkman: doesn't have line in?

08:51:41 nubbins`: http://korginc.github.io/volcasample/index.html

08:51:42 assbot: - volca sample SDK ... ( http://bit.ly/18epC4w )

08:51:44 ben_vulpes: oh hey where's bingoboingo

08:51:46 nubbins`: no line in

08:51:58 nubbins`: it's v inexpensive

08:52:07 ben_vulpes: how does the sound get into it?

08:52:24 nubbins`: modulates it into modem-y sounds

08:52:35 nubbins`: which you play in through the clock sync port

08:52:49 nubbins`: which is an 1/8" audio jack

08:52:53 nubbins`: http://www.korg.com/us/products/dj/volca_sample/

08:52:55 assbot: volca sample DIGITAL SAMPLE SEQUENCER | DJ & Production Tools | KORG ... ( http://bit.ly/18epK4a )

08:53:21 nubbins`: you can also transfer sequence information via this same method

08:53:31 *: ben_vulpes segfaults

08:53:32 ben_vulpes: no

08:53:33 ben_vulpes: nonono

08:53:36 nubbins`: so, e.g. arrange your patterns beforehand and send em over

08:54:02 nubbins`: it's actually surprisingly fun.

08:54:21 nubbins`: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSTxg43_wBM

08:54:22 assbot: KORG volca sample - Tweak, Play, and Sequence Samples - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1JovLZr )

08:56:17 nubbins`: and will literally hit brown notes if connected to a proper sound system

08:57:33 ben_vulpes: i gave up on proper sound systems

08:57:47 ben_vulpes: it just makes life so much worse when people show up and play youtube videos

08:57:48 nubbins`: yeah

08:57:52 nubbins`: even headphones

08:57:54 nubbins`: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THImd641WXk

08:57:56 assbot: Introducing KORG volca sample - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/18eqINQ )

08:58:02 nubbins`: ^ this is the creator messing with it

08:58:12 ben_vulpes: i can't wait for bandwidth to get expensive again

08:58:15 nubbins`: takes one piano sound and makes an entire sequence with it

09:04:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84156 @ 0.00048645 = 40.9377 BTC [-] {5}

09:06:34 thestringpuller: I think that last netsplit resulted in my getting ddosed

09:06:44 ben_vulpes: there he is

09:07:23 thestringpuller: it was pretty bad they disconnected me for 40 minutes off the backbone

09:07:33 ben_vulpes: yowch

09:07:58 thestringpuller: Pretty much like an outage but there wasn't an outage at all, so it had to be DDOS.

09:08:08 thestringpuller: Something is still sucking bandwidth but not as bad.

09:08:26 thestringpuller: like a fat dude sitting in front of my door or something

09:08:29 thestringpuller: how are you ben_vulpes ?

09:08:38 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to surpass Berkshire as an investment" http://bitbet.us/bet/786/ Odds: 20(Y):80(N) by coin, 43(Y):57(N) by weight. Total bet: 5509.50957001 BTC. Current weight: 6,148.

09:08:39 ben_vulpes: writing a thing

09:08:58 ben_vulpes: first time in months

09:08:59 ben_vulpes: feels good

09:10:05 thestringpuller: now qntra news this weekend?

09:10:08 thestringpuller: no*

09:10:24 ben_vulpes: that's your bag not mine

09:11:29 thestringpuller: ;;seen BingoBoingo

09:11:29 gribble: BingoBoingo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 day, 21 hours, 47 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <BingoBoingo> asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: perhaps we have your new pc here. << very interesting

09:24:07 ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2015/01/25_what-does-it-mean-to-bitcoinate-and-just-as-importantly-what-does-bitcoinating-not-include.html

09:24:08 assbot: What does it mean to "bitcoinate"? And just as importantly, what does bitcoinating not include? ... ( http://bit.ly/18evdrH )

09:24:26 ben_vulpes: and to all a good night!

09:26:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19400 @ 0.00049708 = 9.6434 BTC [+]

09:36:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18200 @ 0.00049708 = 9.0469 BTC [+]

09:45:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15550 @ 0.00050438 = 7.8431 BTC [+] {2}

10:34:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14300 @ 0.00051062 = 7.3019 BTC [+] {3}

10:38:54 fluffypony: ben_vulpes: that's precisely the current Monero architecture

10:39:04 fluffypony: the daemon maintains the connection to the network

10:39:18 fluffypony: relays blocks / transactions, stores the blockchain, etc.

10:39:36 fluffypony: and then you can run as many wallet clients as you want

10:39:50 fluffypony: even if they're on separate computers and talk over your LAN to the daemon

10:40:23 fluffypony: oh, and the daemon is also the thing that does / can do solo mining

10:40:46 fluffypony: although it'll gladly serve up work via a GBT-style call

10:40:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27658 @ 0.00051515 = 14.248 BTC [+]

10:50:43 punkman: http://www.amusingplanet.com/2013/04/the-leaning-buildings-of-santos-brazil.html

10:50:44 assbot: The Leaning Buildings of Santos, Brazil | Amusing Planet ... ( http://bit.ly/1C0HM6h )

11:06:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21800 @ 0.00047658 = 10.3894 BTC [-] {3}

12:21:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37588 @ 0.00047436 = 17.8302 BTC [-] {4}

12:34:23 punkman: !up coderwill

12:38:46 coderwill: punkman: thanks, cheers

12:42:14 coderwill: I was following a conversation on GitHub for Bitcoin.org, and found it interesting that Circle has explicitly requested to be removed from the site because it targets a different demographic from what they are searching for.

12:44:01 coderwill: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin.org/pull/700#issuecomment-71344693

12:44:03 assbot: Add long time duration HSTS as a requirement for wallets by saivann · Pull Request #700 · bitcoin/bitcoin.org · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1yGUhkX )

12:51:33 punkman: coderwill, nobody will want anything to do with bitcoin.org or the foundation, sooner or later

12:52:24 coderwill: punkman: i can understand the foundation, but i wonder why the website?

12:53:09 coderwill: punkman: BF just pays a sponsorship fee to help cover the hosting costs, and to support saivann helping maintain it and a few other projects on there, they don't own it

13:02:15 punkman: coderwill: iirc bitcoin.org and bitcointalk.org are owned by some dude that for some reason lets various derps use them

13:03:03 punkman: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Sirius

13:03:05 assbot: Sirius - Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1Jp9RoX )

13:03:48 coderwill: Ah ok, I'm don't know about that.

13:03:59 coderwill: I don't*

13:05:55 punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-06-2014#732169

13:05:56 assbot: Logged on 25-06-2014 15:27:40; ThickAsThieves: "bitcoin.org's content is managed by Saïvann Carignan, who is somewhat associated with the Foundation (though not an employee AFAIK), but the bitcoin.org domain name is jointly owned by me, Sirius, and an anonymous person. We will take action if bitcoin.org is being used inappropriately or the development group does something crazy." ~Theymos

13:06:03 punkman: !up coderwill

13:25:35 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2575 @ 0.00095352 = 2.4553 BTC [-] {12}

13:43:53 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1193 @ 0.00095001 = 1.1334 BTC [-] {2}

13:48:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17850 @ 0.00051528 = 9.1977 BTC [+] {2}

14:26:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20450 @ 0.00051553 = 10.5426 BTC [+] {2}

14:43:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2600 @ 0.00051124 = 1.3292 BTC [-]

14:51:59 decimation: asciilifeform: some guy uploaded a pre-wwii map into the pedi-wikia that plots the locations of functional german hamlets in european ru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Russia#mediaviewer/File:Russia_ethnic.JPG

14:52:01 assbot: European Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1EjmVfh )

14:57:34 decimation: I didn't realize that the Crimea was filled with Tartars

15:22:08 fluffypony: davout: lol

15:25:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24950 @ 0.00051159 = 12.7642 BTC [+] {2}

15:45:19 davout: ;;later tell mircea_popescu: looks like /r/buttcoin folks are actually agreeing

15:45:20 gribble: The operation succeeded.

15:45:22 davout: "If Bitcoiners could ever get decent adoption and max out that 7 transactions per second the fees wouldn't even have to be that bad. Just make every transaction cost 0.006 BTC and that's just $1.50. That would be the equivalent of the current block reward. But the problem is they've all decided that microtransactions while having an expensive Bitcoin is the killer feature."

15:45:51 davout: seems to me that folks from /r/buttcoin are an order of magnitude less retarded than those in /r/bitcoin

15:48:09 davout: fluffypony: the saivann guy is obviously some sort of topological equivalent of a feminist, tries to push irrelevant shit to feel like he, in some way, matters

15:48:38 davout: ;;isup mpex.co

15:48:40 gribble: mpex.co is up

15:48:50 davout: gribble: lies

15:50:24 mod6: $proxies

15:50:25 empyex: mod6: Proxies: mpex.ws mpex.bz mpex.co mpex.biz mpex.coinbr.com Current MPEx GPG-Key-ID: 02DD2D91

15:50:26 empyex: mod6: MPEx-Status: mpex.bz (89 milliseconds), mpex.co (91 milliseconds), mpex.ws (102 milliseconds), mpex.biz (167 milliseconds), mpex.coinbr.com (592 milliseconds)

15:50:27 empyex: mod6: Health-Indicators: Homepage: √ MK Depth JSON: √ VWAP JSON: √

15:52:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52200 @ 0.00051512 = 26.8893 BTC [+] {2}

15:59:52 mats: http://www.geekwire.com/2015/microsoft-buy-revolution-analytics-pushing-big-data/

15:59:53 assbot: Microsoft to buy Revolution Analytics, pushing further into big data - GeekWire ... ( http://bit.ly/1z9WK9K )

16:00:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3000 @ 0.0005096 = 1.5288 BTC [-]

16:33:38 mats: http://dedis.cs.yale.edu/dissent/papers/analysis.pdf re: dining cryptographer nets

16:33:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GT5bJU )

16:34:58 mats: http://bford.info/pub/net/panopticon-cacm.pdf more on 'Dissent'

16:35:00 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GT5zIz )

16:45:14 mats: http://www.onlineprogrammingbooks.com/legally-free-oreilly-media-books/

16:45:16 assbot: O'Reilly Media Books Free to Read or Download Legally : Download Free Book ... ( http://bit.ly/1B9AIik )

17:14:49 jurov: !mpif

17:14:50 assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021389 B (Total: 467.74 B). Delta: -1.46 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000205 BTC [+]

17:43:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34350 @ 0.00050093 = 17.2069 BTC [-] {4}

18:09:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26800 @ 0.0004833 = 12.9524 BTC [-] {4}

18:25:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3198 @ 0.00047318 = 1.5132 BTC [-]

18:34:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33600 @ 0.00046955 = 15.7769 BTC [-]

18:41:39 mircea_popescu: davout well geneally yes, but some voices in particular seem to hate you personally.

18:41:41 ben_vulpes: guten tag saboteure

18:41:47 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 39 @ 0.10061442 = 3.924 BTC [-] {12}

18:42:29 davout: i guess so

18:42:30 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/7d46f615b1b0a8b15b62014971b174ee/tumblr_nguhfqJAEQ1sb822ho1_500.jpg happy panties on thighs day.

18:42:31 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1EklIEA )

18:42:51 davout: as the classical french wisdom goes: "on est tous le connard de quelqu'un d'autre"

18:42:52 mircea_popescu: jstolfi 3 points 14 days ago

18:42:52 mircea_popescu: It looks like he made his goal in life to be the most detestable person in the internet. (Methinks he is still nowhere near that rank, though.) However he is a precious resource, as an expert bitcoiner who enjoys kicking some of the most sacred cows in bitcoinland.

18:43:11 mircea_popescu: so apparently this stolfi brazilian derp figures himself some sort of stragetist or something ?

18:44:27 mircea_popescu: i dun think there's anything more adorkably pathetic than academics aiming for political power. sort-of like the bichon frizee trying to mount a german shepherd in heat.

18:44:40 mircea_popescu: dat dangling minipenis, a foot under the all consuming hole...

18:46:17 mircea_popescu: http://news.yahoo.com/colleague-slain-prosecutor-barred-leaving-argentina-215640674.html <<< pity we can't make bets on whether he "suicides" too. "protective custody" my foot.

18:46:18 assbot: Argentine prosecutor shot point blank in forehead: official - Yahoo News ... ( http://bit.ly/1EkmuBB )

18:46:34 asciilifeform: Can Have Problems (tm) !

18:49:42 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: did you see cai guo-qiang's fireworks last night?

18:50:04 mircea_popescu: mnope

18:50:07 mircea_popescu: wassat ?

18:50:22 ben_vulpes: chinese explosives "artist"

18:50:33 ben_vulpes: did the beijing olympics

18:50:42 ben_vulpes: "paints" with gunpowder between vellum sheets

18:51:04 ben_vulpes: saw a scad of his stuff at the guggenheim when i lived in nyc. rather fun.

18:51:20 mircea_popescu: ah la boca.

18:51:29 mircea_popescu: well... i guess because i was mostly indoors ? only 10 or so miles away

18:51:40 ben_vulpes: suspended a bunch of cars right down the center of the place with flourescent tubes to evoke a fireworks show

18:51:52 mircea_popescu: ah

18:51:56 mircea_popescu: so not actual fireworks ?

18:52:08 ben_vulpes: well not the static piece in the middle of the goog lol no

18:52:29 ben_vulpes: he did the beijing olympics firework show iirc

18:53:31 ben_vulpes: https://twitter.com/CasaRosadaAR/status/559146735344562176 << haw

18:53:33 assbot: El periodista Damián Pachter viajó a Uruguay con pasaje de regreso para el 2 de febrero http://t.co/dUGwifa9AO http://t.co/muWhkHEvfK

18:53:57 mircea_popescu: eyah but you're basically assking someone in manhattan if they saw whatever cars in astoria.

18:54:00 mircea_popescu: it's a ways.

18:55:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26256 @ 0.00046955 = 12.3285 BTC [-]

18:55:04 ben_vulpes: yeah but fireworks!

18:55:13 mircea_popescu: dude.

18:55:19 mircea_popescu: was it fireworks or was it suspended cars ?!

18:56:05 mircea_popescu: anyway, either way i somehow didn't see nething.

18:56:27 mircea_popescu: http://latidobuenosaires.com/mapa-de-la-boca.gif << here's a map of ba barrios for the curious

18:56:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ba7sbd )

18:57:41 mircea_popescu: !up coderwill

18:57:46 coderwill: thanks

18:57:55 coderwill: just reading about this nisman story, bizarre

18:58:12 mircea_popescu: quite.

18:58:37 ben_vulpes: the cars were at the guggenheim in nyc

18:58:40 ben_vulpes: yeeeears go

18:58:43 ben_vulpes: the guy does fireworks.

18:58:47 ben_vulpes: but whatever, irrelevant.

18:59:12 coderwill: what does la boca have to do w/ the nisman situation?

18:59:31 ben_vulpes: nothing

19:00:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17002 @ 0.00047318 = 8.045 BTC [+]

19:00:30 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yup i missed it w/e it was.

19:01:12 coderwill: ah, n/m then :)

19:02:27 mircea_popescu: http://36.media.tumblr.com/41e5fb4725d897b4889563a86f34f07c/tumblr_mgc1uhtoBg1r43ttjo1_500.jpg << guys suck at making cakes.

19:02:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ekq7aL )

19:02:30 mircea_popescu: !up TL121

19:03:11 ben_vulpes: kinda looks like the self-leveling stuff

19:03:12 ben_vulpes: scam

19:07:34 mircea_popescu: the woman or the goop ?

19:08:28 *: ben_vulpes ponders the notion of a self-leveling woman

19:09:49 mircea_popescu: "i said give me those buoys!"

19:16:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44700 @ 0.0005123 = 22.8998 BTC [+] {5}

19:25:01 mircea_popescu: "Frank Sinatra had a terrible temper, as shown by his irrational hatred of Barbara Streisand"

19:25:16 mircea_popescu: dude paul anka is fucking retarded. how the fuck would a hatred of nosewoman be irrational ?

19:27:25 pete_dushenski: because rationality says: love jooz

19:27:29 pete_dushenski: or something

19:28:29 ben_vulpes: http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/americas-best-selling-cars-and-trucks-are-built-on-lies-the-rise-of-fake-engine-noise/2015/01/21/6db09a10-a0ba-11e4-b146-577832eafcb4_story.html << craaaaapflation

19:28:29 assbot: America’s best-selling cars and trucks are built on lies: The rise of fake engine noise - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ekyinh )

19:28:47 mircea_popescu: lol

19:29:05 mircea_popescu: i wonder how long until someone makes a sexnoises app

19:29:56 asciilifeform: obligatory: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=21-01-2015#985211

19:29:56 assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 01:41:29; asciilifeform: speaking of diamonds (specifically of the synthetic variety), one possible observation here - not concerning the idiocy of the wood thing as such - is that anyone demanding a specific 'colour' (as per the 'monolith' essay) - i.e. provenance - of object, is begging to be chumped

19:30:25 ben_vulpes: i've always wanted to crush some diamonds.

19:30:30 mircea_popescu: "Among purists, the trickery has inspired an identity crisis and cut to the heart of American auto legend. "

19:30:31 mircea_popescu: hjeh

19:31:01 mircea_popescu: look, it's dying, what do you want from it. cars are pretty fucking stupid. they had an economic niche which made us forget temporarily, but it's closed up.

19:31:13 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: diamond cleaves along crystal plane - how do you suppose folks cut them prior to lasers ?

19:31:27 pete_dushenski: the fake car noises are because the cars are so well insulated now

19:31:41 pete_dushenski: and the engines are all turbo because "fuel-efficiency"

19:31:44 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski but the "idnetity crisis" is not because of the change in car noise.

19:31:55 mircea_popescu: it's because in the change in the future prospects of the whole activity.

19:32:03 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i have a notion of how diamond cutting works/ed

19:32:03 asciilifeform: see the advantages: you can reprogram the faux vroom speaker for horse whinny.

19:32:14 mircea_popescu: merely disguises itself as "because X", like a domestic argument. in fact, it's becaue there's going to be a divorce.

19:32:30 ben_vulpes: i want to actually crush some.

19:32:49 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: you're right, the identity crisis is that of americans as a whole

19:33:03 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: how does one go about crushing diamond? hydraulic press?

19:33:15 ben_vulpes: something like that.

19:33:18 mircea_popescu: well that's one thinmg, but specifically as to the car, this entire car-and-zoning-laws-and-sprawl-and-commute model got killed by the internet

19:33:22 mircea_popescu: THAT's disruption.

19:33:37 mircea_popescu: and it's killed and dead and not coming back and everyone and everything will change to get rid of cars, and of the sprawl

19:33:47 mircea_popescu: and of commutes and of the right of "governments" to decide land use.

19:33:58 ben_vulpes: us road infrastructure is falling apart due to expense of maintenance.

19:34:02 pete_dushenski: cheap gas might give it a few more minutes of breath

19:34:06 ben_vulpes: last generation's boondoggle.

19:34:16 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes understand : no mistress is ever pooir bnecause "of expense".

19:34:23 mircea_popescu: she's poor becauise she sucks at sucking cock.

19:34:39 mircea_popescu: it's only expensive because we're really done with them. otherwise, they'd be a "great investment".

19:34:57 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski notrly, because it's not really about the gas. it's about the inconvenience.

19:35:14 mircea_popescu: people don't want to spend an hour driving, they want to spend that hour derping on a dating app

19:35:46 pete_dushenski: which would be why average joe can't wait to get a self-driving car

19:35:49 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: weren't they a grand investment for that generation?

19:36:00 mircea_popescu: (not for fucking, mind you. so give them a work at home job where no woman can ever come and a way to score nude tumblrs and that's the new economic model)

19:36:16 ben_vulpes: https://github.com/bitcoinfs/bitcoinfs << entirely unrelated. "full node" in f#, m$ "turdlang"

19:36:17 assbot: bitcoinfs/bitcoinfs · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1EkAb3m )

19:36:28 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yeah, they were, back when the interstates were built. that's perhaps the shiniest example opf "govt investment in slump" mantra.

19:36:44 mircea_popescu: when it's fucking clear what to spen the money on, so clear even a govt could figure it out, keynesianism works.

19:36:56 pete_dushenski: same thing we're seeing in china at the moment

19:37:11 pete_dushenski: they've used more concrete in the past 3 years than usa in the past century

19:37:13 mircea_popescu: had bush spent ALL the stimulus on making internet connecxtions of 1tbps universally available, i wouldn't be here snubbing my nose at horowitz

19:37:26 pete_dushenski: all for the interstates and highways and byways

19:37:32 mircea_popescu: yeah. bad call.

19:37:51 pete_dushenski: "but it worked for usa"

19:37:52 decimation: the problem with a fancy interstate is that it costs a shitton of $$$ for upkeep

19:37:59 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: when do we get cobol node

19:38:08 decimation: and of course it is politically impossible to admit 'we are too poor to have nice roads'

19:38:10 pete_dushenski: decimation: impossible sums of money

19:38:16 mircea_popescu: decimation i never heard of anyone complain that their 16yo cocksucker costs money to upkeep.

19:38:32 mircea_popescu: complaints start after the 30th birthday.

19:38:36 decimation: pete_dushenski: aren't you a fan of the econtalk podcast?

19:38:41 *: pete_dushenski is, fittingly, working on another car-related article atm

19:38:48 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what about a cl node?

19:38:48 pete_dushenski: ya

19:38:54 mircea_popescu: lol pete, repackage this you're halfway there

19:39:07 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: that one is after nubbins` prints the fscking book and i read it

19:39:13 pete_dushenski: this might have to be part deux!

19:39:25 decimation: They had some guy talk about transportation in the us in 2013: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2013/10/winston_on_tran.html

19:39:27 assbot: " + soundfiledesc + " ... ( http://bit.ly/1EkAYS2 )

19:39:42 pete_dushenski: scratch that, it's going to be an epic footnote

19:39:42 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8943709 << also saw this this morning

19:39:43 assbot: Mezzanine: A Common Lisp-based 64-bit OS for VirtualBox | Hacker News ... ( http://bit.ly/1EkB0ZZ )

19:39:59 ben_vulpes: abstractions atop abstractions...

19:40:14 pete_dushenski: decimation: i vaguely remember that one

19:40:18 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you know teh second system effect ?

19:40:30 mircea_popescu: where people end up making ftp clients for firefox extensions ? because "it can be done"

19:40:34 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see earlier experiment of the same flavour, 'movitz'

19:40:48 decimation: "But, when you sum these things up in terms of what consumers spend in terms of getting to work, various pleasure trips and non-work trips, and then you look at what shippers spend on shipping freight and so on and so forth, and then what the government spends building infrastructure, we're talking shares of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) that approach the amount that we are spending on health care. ... And that's just out of pocket

19:40:50 decimation: expenditures. "

19:40:54 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it isn't that hard to port, e.g., sbcl, to 'metal' - but then you end up in driver hell.

19:41:49 mircea_popescu: decimation all of that used to not matter when one considered on the other side the even greater expenses of the available alternatives.

19:41:54 mircea_popescu: but that other side has evaporated.

19:42:05 ben_vulpes: i've seen windows 3.1 in javascript...

19:42:20 mircea_popescu: right ?

19:42:36 decimation: 'other side' being more or less 'private' transport and land use planning?

19:42:49 asciilifeform: death of the auto >> obligatory >> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-09-2014#833541

19:42:50 assbot: Logged on 18-09-2014 16:10:16; gribble: Autosaurus - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff7aj2ZItuk; Adbusters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adbusters; Sim City: Auto-Saurus-Rex, Volcano, UFO's in Spacington! - Spacing ...: http://spacing.ca/atlantic/2012/06/08/sim-city-auto-saurus-rex-volcano-ufos-in-spacington/

19:43:18 mircea_popescu: decimation no. "working at home" , "jacking off to porn and looking at sights on pinterest"

19:43:30 mircea_popescu: work and pleasure. solved, and much safer than actually going there.

19:43:39 mircea_popescu: "it's certainly uncontaminated by any cheese", to quote cleese.

19:44:13 decimation: mmorpgs and other like games probably 'employ' much 'excess' capacity in the us

19:44:58 mircea_popescu: we meet irl once a year, and even that's extravagant for like half the people.

19:45:01 mircea_popescu: yet we meet here each day.

19:45:15 mircea_popescu: what if we had to phisically drive to vegas, like kennedy HAD TO in the 50s ?

19:45:28 mircea_popescu: we would, of course. so what the driveway cost would not be a topic of conversation.

19:45:53 mircea_popescu: who here is on an economy internet package ? everyone just "give me the fattest pipe you got" "oh only that ? INTRODUCE LARGER ONES!"

19:47:00 thestringpuller: I nominate mircea_popescu for the bitcoin public service award!

19:47:02 asciilifeform: lol, yeah, see recent thread where i 'what's a gb optic terminal cost plz'

19:47:15 thestringpuller: After reading all of MPOE-PR's post, I have realized MP has done the greatest public service to this community.

19:47:43 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well you should have seen town meetings in the 60s. "FIFTY LANES WE MUST HAS! EACH WAY!"

19:47:57 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: laugh if you must, but my town still has these same meetings.

19:48:15 mircea_popescu: yeah well you're in the sticks.

19:48:20 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller you actually read the whole lot /

19:48:22 mircea_popescu: ?

19:48:23 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the road never actually gets expanded, of course. but there is endless derp on the subject, for so long as i've lived here (~11 years)

19:48:41 decimation: mircea_popescu: actually much of the worst road 'infrastructure' in the northeast are in cities where people stopped highways from being built

19:49:10 mircea_popescu: decimation im sure.

19:49:12 decimation: around the same time, passenger rail went tits up, so there's little choice except shitty driving

19:49:47 asciilifeform: there is rail here. it is mainly used to get in and out of wash., d.c.

19:50:14 mircea_popescu: boston actually had excellent rail system. perhaps the best in the us.

19:50:25 mircea_popescu: back in 2004, it was car after carful of people all reading a book

19:50:35 mircea_popescu: i've seen pics these days. half as full, everyone on gadget.

19:50:39 decimation: in fact, the sitting senator for maryland, mikulski, was personally involved in leading the riot to stop the connection of I-70 to downtown

19:50:42 decimation: because it was racis

19:50:44 mircea_popescu: it's just... moving around is dead.

19:51:06 asciilifeform: if only it were entirely dead

19:51:31 decimation: I suspect wash dc is one of the few cities with a major upper class commuting culture

19:51:44 decimation: because usg is too stupid to move to somewhere cheaper

19:51:52 mircea_popescu: decimation govt employees are not upper class.

19:52:01 decimation: heh, well it's what passes in wash dc

19:52:21 asciilifeform: actually, usg ministries where no official secrets are involved - now routinely let folks grunt remotely

19:52:26 asciilifeform: e.g., patent office.

19:52:32 mircea_popescu: of course the lord's slave mistress is what passes for upper class among the slaves. nevertheless, the actual upper class regards the favored equal to the common slave.

19:52:57 nubbins`: cough

19:53:08 mircea_popescu: decimation how was teh connection racis ?

19:53:14 nubbins`: the book indeed

19:53:20 thestringpuller: ;;seen BingoBoingo

19:53:21 gribble: BingoBoingo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 days, 8 hours, 29 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <BingoBoingo> asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: perhaps we have your new pc here. << very interesting

19:53:36 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: have you made contact with BingoBoingo?

19:53:45 thestringpuller: QNTRA is stale :(

19:53:59 mircea_popescu: <decimation> because usg is too stupid to move to somewhere cheaper <>< nah, not how it works. wherever it moves, the bedbugs move there too. it won't stay cheaper.

19:54:08 asciilifeform: ^

19:54:15 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller i have not, no.

19:54:24 mircea_popescu: did he get browbagged ?!

19:54:29 thestringpuller: hope feds haven't kidnapped him.

19:54:56 thestringpuller: i swear d00ds were following me in fed-like manner in rural georgia last night.

19:55:24 nubbins`: what manner is that

19:55:26 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller did you submit an article or something ?

19:56:19 thestringpuller: I was gonna do some weekend snippet posts to help lighten the load.

19:56:34 mircea_popescu: so did you submit anything ?

19:57:19 thestringpuller: more of "inquiry". article snippet is still in VIM rite nao.

19:57:40 mircea_popescu: aha

19:57:42 thestringpuller: usually BB tells me if subject matter is "worthy" or not of qntra

19:57:49 mircea_popescu: http://36.media.tumblr.com/444e9675df9943ed6c6d5a885c8dd174/tumblr_ng4oj5R4S01tmf8ldo1_500.jpg << apparently chicks CAN be hawt in glasses.

19:57:50 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1BqaLOg )

19:58:03 thestringpuller: but yea

19:58:13 thestringpuller: someone dropped this in my PM's >> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934268.0;all

19:58:39 thestringpuller: where do you find such tasetful porn?!?

19:59:18 nubbins`: who is burtw

19:59:37 mircea_popescu: burt wagner

19:59:52 thestringpuller: he ran a Pirate Passthru back in times of yore

19:59:53 mircea_popescu: ambiguous, was a pedo early bitcoin advocate with a ridoinculous hourlong webshow

20:00:08 mircea_popescu: was also one of the guys involved in "banker cartel" pirate bs.

20:00:16 nubbins`: o

20:00:29 mircea_popescu: in his defense, this later one was the saner of the bunch

20:00:39 nubbins`: show me an early advocate without a severe sexual disorder

20:00:42 mircea_popescu: iirc he even apologized and errything. dun recall if privately or publicly or what, years ago.

20:00:47 mircea_popescu: nubbins` ikr ?!

20:01:20 mircea_popescu: nubbins` you should fish out the shows tho, they're great. derp has the camera filming in demo mode

20:01:26 nubbins`: heh

20:01:30 mircea_popescu: and it's alltogether just a bunch of artisanship

20:01:31 thestringpuller: nubbins`: I guess their mommy's told them playing with their weewee is bad.

20:01:51 nubbins`: reminds me of the time i filmed my death & had it played for my school lit class while i took the final week off

20:01:57 nubbins`: frame changes to view from bottom of bridge

20:02:16 nubbins`: CONTRAGULATIONS in glorious chunky white vhs-c lettering superimposed on the bottom

20:02:36 nubbins`: completely by accident, no way to remove it. we deemed it fitting and didn't re-shoot.

20:02:38 mircea_popescu: an hero is you ?

20:03:01 nubbins`: an hero wasn't me, a bunch of ears of corn broke my fall

20:03:33 nubbins`: then an unrelated scuffle on the bridge led to a man being thrown off, landing on me and killing me

20:03:36 nubbins`: it was a real roller coaster

20:04:00 mircea_popescu: i recall this grandiose commie romanian cinema thing, where "so what do we do ?! " "well... he can jump on some ears of corn" "but the camera will pick them up". pause. "not if you cover them in a brick painted sheet"

20:04:01 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: I can submit writeup if deemed worthy otherwise It'll stay in the vim buffer

20:04:10 mircea_popescu: guy ended up falling on an inexplicable pile of bricks

20:06:13 pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2015/01/25/a-retrospective-on-six-years-in-the-car-blogosphere/

20:06:14 assbot: A retrospective on six years in the car blogosphere | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bqbxuo )

20:06:27 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=935720.0

20:06:27 assbot: [WTB] Laser-engraved blocks of wood ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bqbwqq )

20:06:29 nubbins`: i lel'd

20:06:40 ben_vulpes: entirely unrelated, it strikes me that a full node should probably provide "getwork" type commands for miners

20:06:51 nubbins`: he's actually kind of an older guy hey?

20:07:05 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes why ?

20:07:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30300 @ 0.00051729 = 15.6739 BTC [+] {2}

20:07:36 mircea_popescu: "Preference will be given to those who provide video of them damaging the finished piece with a dremel tool." lol ok

20:09:01 nubbins`: heh

20:09:08 nubbins`: there's screen grabs somewhere

20:09:17 decimation: re: baltimore: www.prrac.org/pdf/mohl.pdf "Over the next few years, RAM continued to protest the "victimization" of black communities in the path of the interstate, which purposefully seemed designed to take "the heart out of one of the most stable communities in Baltimore." Facing the removal of 10,000 blacks who lived in the path of the east-west expressway, RAM activists challenged the highway engineers who “view people as just

20:09:18 decimation: another obstacle, like a hill to be leveled or a valley to be bridged.”"

20:09:26 nubbins`: incidentally his actual profession is "treatment plant operator" but w/e

20:10:01 mircea_popescu: "To most, the fact that Lila called Mitch a hero for killing himself is strange. "

20:10:08 mircea_popescu: dumbass purimericans. yo, seneca killed himself!

20:10:09 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=935115.msg10255332#msg10255332

20:10:10 assbot: Videos of WoodCollector Hand Carving: Care of MOB ... ( http://bit.ly/1zbqt24 )

20:10:19 mircea_popescu: "to deny entropy that final satisfaction".

20:10:36 nubbins`: i probably would actually pay upwards of $100 for that piece, as-is.

20:10:40 pete_dushenski: ^all the car tawk is in footnote viii :)

20:10:44 nubbins`: A++++ would hang on wall

20:11:10 mircea_popescu: nubbins` that's a great way to end up in 20 years surrounded by junk

20:11:22 nubbins`: i purge as often as i binge

20:11:25 mircea_popescu: decimation you know i can actually see that argument ?

20:11:38 nubbins`: space is at a premium here 8)

20:11:46 mircea_popescu: not as to racism in any sense, but as to why it's a bad idea

20:11:55 nubbins`: anyway, my dad makes pen blanks, he'd love it

20:12:53 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i guess not in the spirit of modular design.

20:13:16 decimation: mircea_popescu: yeah I think you have a good point

20:13:24 ben_vulpes: perhaps better would be a thing that connects to the network, slurps out unconfirmed transactions and poops that back out as the mining input...

20:13:26 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes well, if you gonna do something, best know why you're doing it.

20:13:51 thestringpuller: nubbins`: this saga reminds me of some trailer park boys shit.

20:13:56 mircea_popescu: decimation i mean, if the entire objection to the mores of the black ghetto is that men don't live with the women they impregnate, and then you go demolish the one place for 500 miles where they actually do...

20:13:59 thestringpuller: ben_vulpes smokes now.

20:14:07 *: thestringpuller snaps fingers

20:14:12 decimation: the problem is that in democracy, it's really easy to kill off projects, so nothing is built

20:14:15 nubbins`: "Professional carpenters never, ever, EVER smoke in the shop. It's an incredible fire hazard as well as a personal danger since stimulants can increase the risk of slippage on a power tool. My father was an avid chain smoker and would never allow tobacco in his work area."

20:14:34 mircea_popescu: decimation sure, but on the other hand the job of politics is to avoid placing the table on the toes.

20:14:41 ben_vulpes: thestringpuller: smokes, let's go.

20:14:46 decimation: mircea_popescu: although in this particular case, the neighborhoods were saved and they ended up full of broken families anyway

20:15:21 mircea_popescu: well yes. politics doesn't work, we know that going in.

20:17:32 decimation: this robert moses guy singlehandedly paved over many minority communities all around the northeast

20:20:04 mircea_popescu: http://38.media.tumblr.com/663d73bfaf012e37a252ea40446c14ff/tumblr_ngp5fkkC3O1tghbqho1_500.gif << why boobjobs exist

20:20:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1zbubIR )

20:22:24 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: those definitely look real.

20:22:37 mircea_popescu: yeah. real bad.

20:23:02 thestringpuller: i would hate to fast forward 20 years tho

20:23:23 thestringpuller: swing low sweet chariot

20:23:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13800 @ 0.00049654 = 6.8523 BTC [-]

20:25:33 mircea_popescu: nubbins`: i suspect smoothie from the forums is kinda stupid << generally known as such. his behaviour throughout was, to quote hanbot "nothing short of bizarre"

20:26:27 mircea_popescu: hm.... i never knew an "artisan" that works wood by the truckload ? this is akin to someone claiming to be dali explaining how he gets a truckload of paint a week...'

20:26:53 thestringpuller: !b 1

20:26:54 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3J3CJZ2.txt )

20:30:35 mircea_popescu: assbot: Tinder Makes Its First Match in Antarctica -- The Cut << speaking oif which : the brave mthreat amongst us is going on a south pole expedition like next week

20:30:46 mircea_popescu: and he's going to try an' broadcast a btc txn from down there.

20:32:46 mircea_popescu: fluffypony: ben_vulpes: that's precisely the current Monero architecture << heh. apparently sanity is not a luxury product.

20:33:42 mircea_popescu: coderwill: I was following a conversation on GitHub for Bitcoin.org, and found it interesting that Circle has explicitly requested to be removed from the site because it targets a different demographic from what they are searching for. << yeah., circle is looking for suckers / idiots / people who refuse to think.

20:35:03 thestringpuller: ;;ticker

20:35:04 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 249.02, Best ask: 249.23, Bid-ask spread: 0.21000, Last trade: 249.23, 24 hour volume: 23858.11300772, 24 hour low: 241.33, 24 hour high: 255.0, 24 hour vwap: 248.526571821

20:35:17 mircea_popescu: decimation: I didn't realize that the Crimea was filled with Tartars << golden horde sez nothing to you ?

20:35:42 mircea_popescu: davout: seems to me that folks from /r/buttcoin are an order of magnitude less retarded than those in /r/bitcoin << this is true.

20:36:43 mircea_popescu: one group is motivated by greed, which brings all the idiots out of the woodwork. the other group is motivated by broken ideology, which HAS a barrier to entry, because you can't adhere to an ideology and act on that basis if you're arbitrarily stupid.

20:37:19 mircea_popescu: it's true that you can't be smarter than Y, but you also can't be stupider than Y, and so the average will always be over Y which is not an average /r/bitcoin looks likely to reach.

20:37:31 mircea_popescu: but this because of what /r/ is, not because of what bitcoin is.

20:37:37 decimation: yeah I knew tartars/turkic peoples were scattered around the middle and eastern parts of asiatic ru, but I didn't realize they had taken up around Sevastopol

20:37:57 mircea_popescu: there was a historically important tatar state there,

20:38:05 mircea_popescu: at times more important than the muscovy duchy etc.

20:38:26 thestringpuller: what happens when all these VC fueled comapnies fail? Do we just go in an plunder them and shit?

20:38:28 mircea_popescu: this is what one means when he says "lithuanian situation is complicated".

20:38:41 thestringpuller: ;;ud lituation

20:38:42 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Lituation | You go to the bodega and a chicken cutlet is half off and they give you a free bag of chips and an Arizona because they know you. That's a lituation.

20:38:47 mircea_popescu: you could in fact pretend like wait, "give russia back to the tatars"

20:39:34 decimation: putin's landgrab of crimea has a great deal of historical and cultural importance, of which the west is almost completely ignorant

20:40:19 decimation: http://theden.tv/2015/01/24/jesuisusefulidiot-western-leaders-exploit-the-paris-attacks/ "What was the #JeSuisCharlie demonstration about if not about free speech then? The shortest answer would be: emopolitik. As Colin Liddell has defined it, emopolitik is: “the achievement of political goals and the destabilization of rival political systems through the selective mobilization and projection of decontextualized human emotions and

20:40:19 assbot: #JeSuisUsefulIdiot : Western Leaders Exploit the Paris Attacks | Thedening the West ... ( http://bit.ly/1yZqWRz )

20:40:20 decimation: sympathies through social media.”"

20:40:36 mircea_popescu: well, "the west" in the sense of, "west of ozarks" are people who live in states bordered by straight lines.

20:40:51 mircea_popescu: obviously they imagine the world is you know, someone just walked out with a ruler cca 100 years ago

20:41:17 decimation: but 'that's how we do things here?'

20:41:26 mircea_popescu: decimation yep, that's pretty much what that was

20:41:47 decimation: "Concretely, this has meant giving massive publicity and a momentous political significance to the 17 people killed in the Charlie Hebdo and related attacks. This contrasts sharply with the treatment given to any number of other recent tragedies: the 1,400 girls raped by largely Pakistani gangs in Rotherham, England, the tens of thousands of victims of Islamist terrorism in Syria, and the over 4,000 people killed in the Donbass

20:41:49 decimation: region of Ukraine have not been given the same significance by the Brahmin classes of the West."

20:42:21 mircea_popescu: more relevant to our interests : the one public prosecutor murdered by the argentine state in argentina.

20:42:28 mircea_popescu: that's what i care about : statal terrorism.

20:43:02 mircea_popescu: three guys that fire weapons by hand are not my concern. three million dickless schmucks sitting behind desks, those are the problem.

20:44:22 decimation: sitting behind a desk breeds a kind of passive-agressive posturing syndrome

20:45:13 mircea_popescu: which has to be beaten out of the afflicted, for everyone's benefit.

20:45:26 thestringpuller: ^- it's still a public service tho

20:45:27 thestringpuller: :D

20:49:15 davout: decimation: "emopolitik" <<< this i like

20:50:55 decimation: davout: yeah it's a good term. note that emopolitik is called "political strategy" in the democratic west

20:51:34 mircea_popescu: well because the intellect is rarely functioning and universaly expensive to fire up, whereas the emoprocessor is always on.

20:51:49 mircea_popescu: so of course any headcount-based system will try to talk to the latter.

20:52:23 mircea_popescu: this is why you don't want "universal suffrage" : it makes politics a matter of emo manipulation, like marketing.

20:52:52 decimation: "system 1" thinking vice "system 2" thinking

20:55:20 mircea_popescu: anyway, the solution is quite simple : do not give everyone voice. have a voicing procedure in place.

20:55:46 mircea_popescu: and the solution will prevail because the problems universal suffrage straddles its practitioners with are not only unresolvable, but actually heavier than the sum benefits.

20:55:52 mircea_popescu: and as such... it fails on its own.

20:56:04 decimation: mircea_popescu: one wonders why newspapers haven't caught onto this idea

20:56:31 mircea_popescu: the intellect is rarely functioning and universaly expensive to fire up

20:57:49 mircea_popescu: the only sort of situation where US systems approach survivability are very plain, obvious questions that everyone, even a turtle, would get right.

20:58:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22963 @ 0.00049352 = 11.3327 BTC [-] {3}

20:58:15 mircea_popescu: which is whence the crisis-oriented politics of all US sytems comes from. the only time the US US made sense was during war with germany. "either yer fer or against!"

20:58:56 mircea_popescu: so in general, sanity only needs very minimal measures to defend itself from the otherwise doomed attempts to relevancy of the us-ists : keep issues from becoming simple matters.

20:59:01 mircea_popescu: not a hard task these days.

20:59:33 mircea_popescu: (US = universal suffrage, not united states)

21:03:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42700 @ 0.00048548 = 20.73 BTC [-] {3}

21:20:17 jurov: https://i.imgur.com/e1b0wCC.jpg i had no idea!

21:20:19 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1uNqA25 )

21:23:44 mats: so meta

21:33:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16865 @ 0.00049721 = 8.3854 BTC [+]

21:57:40 jurov: lxr is same incredibly warty crufty stuff as mailman.. but seems i got it working somehow

21:57:44 jurov: http://ml.btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/

21:57:52 jurov: oops http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/

21:57:53 assbot: Satoshi 0.5.3.chicken/ ... ( http://bit.ly/1L8WsDa )

22:00:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00048866 = 4.9355 BTC [-]

22:05:41 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2015/ok-so-what-is-bitcoin-disrupting/ << my modest etnry to "most important article published on the Internet in 2015"

22:05:42 assbot: Ok, so what is Bitcoin disrupting ? pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1L8XsqO )

22:06:06 mircea_popescu: wd jumae

22:06:10 mircea_popescu: oops. wd jurov *

22:07:39 jurov: if it had go parser, i'd put btcd there too

22:08:30 mircea_popescu: there must be one

22:08:48 mircea_popescu: gsuneido/parse.go ?

22:09:06 mircea_popescu: oh nm, i think this goes the other way

22:09:12 jurov: well... lxr is in perl

22:10:28 jurov: maybe someday

22:11:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13500 @ 0.00049081 = 6.6259 BTC [+] {2}

22:21:31 mircea_popescu: His mastery of the skill comes not from his ability to "cut around the lines" but in that he can from start to finish carve on some of the most difficult woods in the world to work with. Wood that 80% of your so called "master carvers" as they claim on youtube and the woodworking forums would not touch in a hundred years because it takes some serious talent to carve them.

22:21:36 mircea_popescu: im sorry... wut ?!

22:21:47 mircea_popescu: apparently the average chump believes talent to be a sort of spark-of-superman.

22:22:28 mircea_popescu: maybe woodcollector should carve a block of boron carbide next, as a super-show of his super-talents.

22:31:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26792 @ 0.00050569 = 13.5484 BTC [+] {3}

22:43:00 mircea_popescu: !up beautyon

22:52:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00050561 = 5.764 BTC [-] {2}

23:00:09 mircea_popescu: http://tineye.com/search/60e43776e135af28e87b8d20f5facf024eb0b6c0/

23:00:13 assbot: 0 results - TinEye ... ( http://bit.ly/15xVDTk )

23:00:13 mircea_popescu: very useful ;/

23:00:37 mircea_popescu: if anyone wants to know what happens to "exciting revolutionary start-ups" once the burn rate burns through... tin eye is a fine example.

23:00:47 mircea_popescu: can't fucking find well known sets that are all over the interwebs.

23:20:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20950 @ 0.00049087 = 10.2837 BTC [-]

23:20:55 Naphex: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=762075 lmao, mlm + ponzi scam kicking it up.

23:20:56 assbot: [ANN] BitClub Network - Passive Bitcoin Mining Opportunity NOW LIVE! ... ( http://bit.ly/15y06FE )

23:22:08 mircea_popescu: "This sounds like a legit deal to me because the bitcoin mining can keep it going."

23:22:12 mircea_popescu: forum in a sentence.

23:22:30 Naphex: apparently a lot of romanians & italians are biting on it

23:22:53 Naphex: they get hooked irl ;o

23:23:14 mircea_popescu: gotta lose their bitcoins somehow.

23:26:13 mircea_popescu: !up BombaUcigasa_

23:26:15 mircea_popescu: !up CoraCrisT

23:26:20 BombaUcigasa_: salut MP

23:26:21 CoraCrisT: hey mircea_popescu . thanks!

23:26:26 mircea_popescu: np np

23:26:29 BombaUcigasa_: nu sunt auth ca e web

23:26:54 BombaUcigasa_: am intrat sa vad discutia cu link-ul lui Naphex

23:27:08 mircea_popescu: tis an english chan you know

23:27:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9300 @ 0.00048649 = 4.5244 BTC [-]

23:28:18 BombaUcigasa_: much regret, very forgetful, many mistake

23:28:26 mircea_popescu: lol.

23:28:39 mircea_popescu: anyway, what discussion, flavour of the week tardstalk scam

23:28:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes, anyone else who is interested in node on 'pogo' - buy yourself the box (pogo model 4.) i intend to post a recipe soon.

23:29:00 mircea_popescu: whole shebang ? pretty cool.

23:29:01 BombaUcigasa_: onecoin/btcclub convoluted "mining"/MLM schemes

23:29:39 CoraCrisT: and don`t forget "the marketing plan" . they have all figured out it seems

23:29:57 CoraCrisT: just waiting for the horde to join

23:30:45 mircea_popescu: eh, read up on the ognasty thing , or the diablo whatever that was for the classics of the genre

23:31:14 mircea_popescu: i suppose now that garza packed it, buncha noobs will be trying for the "first best largest" bitcoin scam thing.

23:33:24 mircea_popescu: http://40.media.tumblr.com/40d5ac3fd9993ba9c6cc78f0b84b081c/tumblr_ndv41usdYt1tf8ygvo1_1280.jpg << dacia ftw.

23:33:26 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/15y2zjt )

23:33:28 CoraCrisT: and many more will fallow..

23:33:56 CoraCrisT: i love the high heels... they go great with the rustic roads back home

23:34:06 CoraCrisT: :X

23:36:09 BombaUcigasa_: dacia?

23:41:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7750 @ 0.00050656 = 3.9258 BTC [+]

23:42:08 BombaUcigasa_: nu vad http://fraudsters.com/2015/ok-so-what-is-bitcoin-disrupting/, nu ma prind, e o problema cu site-ul, nu apare postul ...

23:42:08 assbot: Page not found pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/15y4g06 )

23:43:04 BombaUcigasa_: it works now

23:45:56 mats: http://n0where.net/wpa2-halfhandshake-crack a new attack, i believe

23:45:58 assbot: WPA2 HalfHandshake Crack ... ( http://bit.ly/15y51X6 )

23:46:59 asciilifeform: mats: dictionary attack, snore.

23:48:26 mats: yeah. there are also easier attacks if you mean to go the rogue AP route.

23:50:52 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1263 @ 0.00098375 = 1.2425 BTC [+]

23:52:36 thestringpuller: ;;seen BingoBoingo

23:52:36 gribble: BingoBoingo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 days, 12 hours, 29 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <BingoBoingo> asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: perhaps we have your new pc here. << very interesting

23:53:04 thestringpuller: ^- your ip is showing

23:56:21 thestringpuller: ;;ticker

23:56:22 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 254.41, Best ask: 254.94, Bid-ask spread: 0.53000, Last trade: 254.4, 24 hour volume: 28837.40598966, 24 hour low: 241.33, 24 hour high: 257.0, 24 hour vwap: 249.600325346