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Transcript for 27-09-2014, 1703 lines:

00:00:25 BingoBoingo: Ah. So two of those could do most of the work in the 'peine forte et dure'

00:00:56 BingoBoingo: To compensate I imagine they follow with individual grains of sand...

00:02:20 RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot

00:04:29 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker

00:04:30 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 404.17, Best ask: 405.64, Bid-ask spread: 1.47000, Last trade: 403.42, 24 hour volume: 9924.61680006, 24 hour low: 396.53, 24 hour high: 414.35, 24 hour vwap: 404.93824206

00:05:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13088 @ 0.00074756 = 9.7841 BTC [-]

00:06:12 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: https://www.google.com/patents/US6784591 << best lulz

00:06:13 assbot: Patent US6784591 - Gravitational wave generator utilizing submicroscopic energizable elements - Google Patents

00:07:14 BingoBoingo: What... the fuck...

00:08:44 BingoBoingo: http://drgrumpyinthehouse.blogspot.com/2014/09/memories.html

00:08:44 assbot: Doctor Grumpy in the House: Memories...

00:11:04 BingoBoingo: Airplane is solaris box and scada controllers, Airplane is Unix box with wings http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/video/2012/apr/19/cory-doctorow-regulation-computation-video time roughly 15:15

00:11:05 assbot: There is a war coming: Cory Doctorow on the future regulation of general purpose computation video | Comment is free | The Guardian

00:12:57 Duffer1: BingoBoingo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_gravity

00:12:57 assbot: Speed of gravity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

00:14:16 asciilifeform: as far as anyone can tell - equal to 'c'

00:15:46 Duffer1: yep, but without the traditional propogation of a signal through wire

00:16:43 BingoBoingo: http://www.gomerblog.com/2014/09/resuscitate/ >> "Cons / Battery life is weak and Elmo?s chest cracks easily"

00:16:44 assbot: Product Review: Mattels Resuscitate Me Elmo - Medical Satire - GomerBlog

00:16:55 Duffer1: presumably zero latency depending on the range of the receiving sensor

00:17:37 Duffer1: er presumably zero latency, range dependant on receiving sensor

00:18:00 asciilifeform: if zero -> break sr

00:18:28 asciilifeform: talk backwards in time, or with 'parallel universes' - take your pick

00:18:35 BingoBoingo: Mega bezzel >> http://crazyrxman.blogspot.com/2014/09/another-reason-mail-order-pharmacy-sucks.html

00:18:35 assbot: Crazy RxMan: Another Reason Mail Order Pharmacy Sucks

00:21:36 BingoBoingo: Business makes other business its unpaid support line

00:43:30 BingoBoingo: http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/96334428/college-football-week-5-viewers-guide-picks-previews?partnerId=as_mlb_20140927_32347396

00:43:30 assbot: Top teams will attempt to avoid traps in Week 5 of college football. | SportsonEarth.com : Matt Brown Article

00:50:24 BingoBoingo: ^ Maryland v. Indiana should be an interesting game.

00:55:19 decimation: the fact that maryland is in the big ten now his hilarious

00:57:09 BingoBoingo: decimation: Not really considering Illinois managed to stay in. Hilarious will be that in the next 5 years there is going to be a game where Maryland fucks the ever loving shit out of Ohio State.

01:02:23 BingoBoingo: decimation: What drives excitement in the college game is how disproportionately good the great players are in relation to replacement level. Hence Johnny Manziel singlehandedly making A&M competitive or Tevin Coleman avoiding a coma leading the Indiana upset over Missouri lastweekend almost on his own (Missouri's shitty center helped by not knowing how to snap the fucking ball to the quarterback) http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/

01:02:23 assbot: Bingo Blog | - of Bitcoin and Boingo

01:02:23 BingoBoingo: 2014/09/22/a-rough-weekend-for-missouri-sports/

01:04:13 RagnarDanneskjol: you follow SEC/ACC bingo?

01:05:10 BingoBoingo: RagnarDanneskjol: Mostly SEC/Big 12

01:05:30 BingoBoingo: Curse of one of the ALma Maters.

01:05:37 RagnarDanneskjol: me too - they make other divisions look like JV imo

01:06:14 BingoBoingo: For the Most part. On the downside other divisions can produce some ridiculously dominant teams due to the lack of serious threats

01:06:30 BingoBoingo: See: Florida State

01:06:53 RagnarDanneskjol: oh yea

01:07:35 BingoBoingo: But I will admit last week's Mizzou loss, they might as well have fucking lost to Mckendree, another Alma Mater which only joined the NCAA 2 years ago, in D 2

01:08:43 RagnarDanneskjol: right - that was pretty lame

01:09:11 BingoBoingo: But still Tevin Coleman, coming back from a near coma was a beast for Indiana.

01:09:22 RagnarDanneskjol: missed that one

01:10:35 BingoBoingo: Dude sat out the entire second quarter on an oxygen machine, game back the second half. Made game winning plays. Definitely making it into the Nfl if he doesn't get himself killed first.

01:10:46 RagnarDanneskjol: oh wow

01:12:00 BingoBoingo: The dude was on supplemental oxygen though before he came back. Why he didn't fucking cross the street to the hospital(s) you could see on camera I will never know.

01:12:28 RagnarDanneskjol: hmm

01:13:42 BingoBoingo: On the other side Mizzou's quarterback displayed spectacluar gymnastic feats of athleticism... merely getting the ball on completely fucked snaps.

01:13:57 BingoBoingo: Doubt He'll finish the season if they keep that center.

01:15:40 BingoBoingo: You can have a great quarterback, but it doesn't mean much if they have to burn time getting the ball in the first place instead of getting it downfield.

01:15:58 RagnarDanneskjol: exactly

01:17:42 BingoBoingo: But that's a hazard of the College game. Good players lose eligibility. Whereas in the NFL you can pick a position play to within 5lbs and 0.5 inches of the coach's ideal

01:19:30 RagnarDanneskjol: hmm. intersting point. I can't stand pro sports

01:19:34 BingoBoingo: College teams have to keep merely replacement level players from being a handicap.

01:19:41 RagnarDanneskjol: right

01:21:06 BingoBoingo: Well, I like baseball because the great players have the space to make careers. Same for hockey. In the NFL though, I tend to root for players over teams and hope they survive long enough to make it over the sub-two year average career.

01:21:22 RagnarDanneskjol: right - baseball is the exception

01:22:33 BingoBoingo: Right, because Derek Jeter gets to go out with dignity and... Brett Farve after all that CTE can't even continue to grasp hook up etiquette.

01:22:49 RagnarDanneskjol: ha

01:24:29 BingoBoingo: The NBA of course is its own different animal in that it is still recovering from Space Jam, Kazam, and everything but basketball being the center of attention

01:25:41 BingoBoingo: Baseball fucked itself pretty hard by discouraging anyone from liking good players with the PED witchhunt, but... At least it never had a Space Jam.

01:28:12 BingoBoingo: As great as Lebron is, his legacy is going to be compared to the Mega Stars from before the Internet gave such categories serious competition.

01:29:01 RagnarDanneskjol: mhmm

01:29:26 BingoBoingo: Baseball went through this in the 1960's though when neither Marris nor Mantle could be the next Babe Ruth.

01:32:35 BingoBoingo: Creeping up on the NFL (and College Football) is the specter of people prefering to watch games at the bar or at home. Combatting this so far has been teams declaring any Stadium older than 15 years obsolete, but all it takes is one city calling the bluff and chasing their team to Los Angeles for the pressure the NFL exerts to deflate.

01:36:52 BingoBoingo: Then there's the revenue sharing and salary cap shit in the NFL that makes me nauseous... Why should good teams have to disband their core in the same of salary caps? I have no problem with the idea that a Jeter and A Rod-less Yankee team will have Giancarlo Stanton, but salary caps a sa parity tool are even stupider in the NFL where they actually exist as most players careers end within two seasons.

01:38:57 BingoBoingo: lol, is anything wrong with ksh? >> http://www.csoonline.com/article/2688008/security-leadership/three-steps-you-need-to-take-to-avoid-overreacting-to-the-bash-bug.html

01:38:58 assbot: Three steps you need to take to avoid overreacting to the bash bug | CSO Online

01:40:02 asciilifeform: lol that turd reads like it was a 'mad libs' product

01:40:08 asciilifeform: with 'bash bug' inserted in a blank

01:40:46 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well they probably already had the form letter ready

01:41:59 *: BingoBoingo is still rather sad there is interesting harware right down US 50 from himself, but it is too heavy to acquire.

01:42:10 asciilifeform: too heavy for what?

01:42:24 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Too heavy for Mexico backpack

01:42:57 BingoBoingo: And then checking in baggage from Neuvo Laredo to hardware BA

01:45:24 BingoBoingo: I'm coming to terms with my car running out of value to make it worth boating across the Darien

01:48:20 BingoBoingo: So likely the plan may or may not involve hoofing it that stretch and buying another motor vehicle

01:48:51 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: presumably one-way trip ?

01:49:35 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Nah, I'll check out New Reno when it happens

01:51:30 BingoBoingo: The tragic flaw with TDV's Galts gultch Chile is that it could have been viabile if only instead they went for an apartment block in a city...

01:51:56 asciilifeform: what kind of 'gulch' would that be.

01:52:10 asciilifeform: the whole fantasy involves a 'hidden fortress' in some shangri-la

01:54:08 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: And there's the trick. You can't have shangri-la without fresh nubile women, and you can't have a place for them to congregate without a city. By this metric a courtyard between building wings could be all the gultch necessary.

01:55:08 BingoBoingo: Hidden, Fortress, and neither compose a triangle.

01:55:11 asciilifeform: ;;google mineshaft gap

01:55:12 gribble: Missile gap - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap; Dr. Strangelove - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove; Mineshaft gap - Dr. Strangelove - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybSzoLCCX-Y

01:55:45 BingoBoingo: If you are worried about the mineshaft gap you are on the wrong continent

01:56:59 BingoBoingo: Africa where Ebola is about to become a permanent feature of life, or South America where anyone of worth from the remains of Rome settled are the extant options.

01:57:34 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: Strangelove: 'Regrettably, yes. But it is, you know, a sacrifice required for the future of the human race. I hasten to add that since each man will be required to do prodigious...service along these lines, the women will have to be selected for their sexual characteristics which will have to be of a highly stimulating nature.' Russian Ambassador: 'I must confess, you have an astonishingly good ide

01:57:34 asciilifeform: a there, Doctor.'

01:57:48 asciilifeform: (re: 'mineshaft gap')

01:57:54 BingoBoingo: INdeed

01:58:09 BingoBoingo: Also note his beautiful calculator.

02:00:07 BingoBoingo: I wish I had the dexterity to handle clockwork in a creative way

02:01:00 BingoBoingo: "Lindh?s NAS ran Bash alternative Dash by default and a tweet from security researcher Dragos Ruiu appeared to back up Lindh?s early research. If derivatives of Bash are also vulnerable to Shellshock, this would widen the number of potential targets massively." << BADBOIS Guy >> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/sep/26/bash-bug-shellshock-richard-stallman

02:01:00 assbot: Shellshock just 'a blip' says Richard Stallman as Bash bug attacks increase | Technology | theguardian.com

02:01:56 asciilifeform: what is rms holding in the photo?

02:03:55 BingoBoingo: looks like a bit of interesting chicom tech

02:04:04 asciilifeform: possibly 'loongson'

02:04:12 asciilifeform: (largely unobtainable outside of cn)

02:04:46 BingoBoingo: I thought he was always on longsoon now a days. I'd never seen one with a detaching keyboard though.

02:05:38 asciilifeform: looks like a miniature ('happyhacking' brand?) item

02:06:04 BingoBoingo: Are there any longsoons that aren't in miniature?

02:06:14 asciilifeform: no, the keyboard

02:06:26 BingoBoingo: Ah

02:06:31 asciilifeform: sat on top of the laptop

02:08:01 BingoBoingo: I was inclined to think that might be the laptop's own detached

02:08:39 asciilifeform: loongson (and, afaik, anyone else) does not sell such a thing

02:09:39 BingoBoingo: My brother's freshman year room mate I am told had a pantent on a similar detachable keyboard arrangement.Last I check as of 2007 the VC circus had enlarged his expectation's sphincter many guages

02:10:04 asciilifeform: trivially extend the cable that connects laptop keyboard. but, why?!?

02:11:38 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Because he was 17, paki, and his parents conditioned him for entrpreneuership.

02:12:42 BingoBoingo: In the interim my younger brother went to dental school, and... why the fuck didn't I do that...

02:13:10 BingoBoingo: Shit doesn't even require a sould cruching residency.

02:15:01 BingoBoingo: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/09/yahoo-killing-off-yahoo-after-20-years-of-hierarchical-organization/

02:15:02 assbot: Yahoo killing off Yahoo after 20 years of hierarchical organization | Ars Technica

02:16:05 *: BingoBoingo thinks to DMOZ's undead fate

02:16:52 BingoBoingo: DMOZ being a project left for the people who aren't even good enough for wikipedia fail.

02:33:04 decimation: this 'bash bug' is hilarious. one wonders who knew about it for the past few years, and who exploited it unawares...

02:33:18 asciilifeform: decimation: who knew << the author.

02:33:26 asciilifeform: and his handlers.

02:33:36 kakobrekla: dunno if its so easy to claim that

02:33:56 decimation: do we know who the author is?

02:34:08 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/WhyNoMiracles.HTM << obligatory

02:34:09 assbot: Why Science Can't Accept Miracles (Even if They Really Exist)

02:34:31 asciilifeform: this essay more or less explains why it is necessary to presume an author, and his handlers.

02:34:46 asciilifeform: even if there is no immediately visible 'smoking gun'

02:35:39 kakobrekla: alright ill take a look

02:35:49 asciilifeform: if you create a 'heartbleed' - you are a вредитель. and whether you did it intentionally, given the impossibility of proof - does not matter.

02:36:41 asciilifeform: 'If you're a defendant, you don't get to claim your fingerprints miraculously appeared at a crime scene... If you're a bookkeeper, you don't get to say money miraculously disappeared from your company...'

02:37:00 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-08-2014#811885

02:37:01 assbot: Logged on 27-08-2014 04:09:34; asciilifeform: if you (org.) want to keep secrets, the menu is roughly: a) employ incorruptible fanatics b) keep all henchmen incommunicado, in 'шарашка' prisons c) there is no 'c.' tertium non datur.

02:37:23 decimation: I think usg inspires a fair amount of zealotry actually

02:37:46 asciilifeform: decimation: mp added a c) if i recall: 'kill and bury the pyramid builders, blind the architect'

02:40:30 decimation: see the bitcoin/socom meeting in the link above http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-09-2014#846156

02:40:31 assbot: Logged on 26-09-2014 18:41:05; mats_cd03: http://www.cnbc.com/id/102033875 >> USSOCOM plugs bitcoin foundation...

02:41:31 decimation: what I find inexplicable is that you find folks in the us who absolutely hate everything about usg policies, in terms of how it mismanages wealth, fails to jail criminals, etc, and yet are willing to serve the military side

02:41:36 kakobrekla: asciilifeform do you claim you can write bugless code (maybe even given the right platform to do it on)

02:42:08 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: yes.

02:42:13 kakobrekla: pft!

02:42:19 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: what, you can't?

02:42:27 decimation: usg is the unintentional beneficiary of a great deal of "I want to make a difference" altruism

02:42:30 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: try, for instance, a bugless 'hello world'

02:42:35 asciilifeform: it isn't too much sweat.

02:42:46 kakobrekla: that one i could manage.

02:42:55 kakobrekla: maybe

02:43:11 decimation: it helps a great deal if the programming language you use guarantees proper memory allocation, bounds checking, etc.

02:44:03 asciilifeform: laugh, laugh. but most of what you expect from your computer is not -mathematically- more complicated than 'hello world.'

02:44:23 asciilifeform: mainly - moving bits from one place to another.

02:44:54 decimation: I became depressed by dijkstra when he demonstrated how impossible it would be to fully check a simple multiplier circuit

02:45:16 asciilifeform: decimation: the cure for this depression is to understand that a machine can be built to be -understood-.

02:45:25 asciilifeform: rather than mathematicized-about.

02:45:55 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/04MWR5J.txt )

02:45:55 kakobrekla: !b 3

02:46:00 kakobrekla: i know what you are saying dec.

02:46:30 asciilifeform: imagine if the stone age had extended far beyond where it did, and man built gigantic stone swords.

02:46:43 asciilifeform: that needed a squadron of a dozen or more wielders, to swing it at all

02:46:55 asciilifeform: and they would work in synchrony, but of course imperfectly - and occasionally at cross purposes

02:47:18 asciilifeform: or squadron could contain enemy wrecker, imperceptibly and unprovably spoiling a swing

02:47:35 asciilifeform: even the best swings would be from among a very small set of simple strokes.

02:47:51 asciilifeform: then - somebody comes up with metallurgy, creates sword that one man can comfortably swing.

02:48:03 asciilifeform: entire universe of a difference.

02:48:13 asciilifeform: ^ that is the kind of thing i mean by -understandable-.

02:48:30 decimation: the single wielder can certainly explore a larger set of swing-space

02:49:03 asciilifeform: when we are talking about a sword that a man can swing - or a computer system that 'fits' inside a single brain comfortably - this is a fundamental difference.

02:49:24 asciilifeform: like the difference between a shirt that fits and one which does not

02:49:29 decimation: the man 'understands' swinging in a subjective way?

02:49:38 asciilifeform: subjective only in the sense that people vary in size

02:50:09 asciilifeform: and if you really wish to know which 'swordsman' is more comfortable with his tool - let god of war decide.

02:50:31 decimation: well, one could argue that's why the lisp machine died out, right?

02:50:39 asciilifeform: could.

02:50:45 asciilifeform: swordsman can trip on banana peel

02:51:01 asciilifeform: then squadron with stone megacock can feel victorious, vindicated.

02:51:55 kakobrekla: :D

02:52:01 decimation: yeah the lisp machine was carried by only a precious handful of people, who were the enemies of ibm and everyone else who wanted to muscle into the space

02:52:28 asciilifeform: decimation: it is important to understand that lm was a specialist instrument - like the most elaborate electron microscope.

02:52:38 asciilifeform: it made no attempt to compete with, e.g., ibm anything

02:52:43 asciilifeform: existed in entirely separate universe

02:53:09 asciilifeform: just as 'bentley' does not compete with 'toyota'

02:53:11 decimation: ibm/wintel happened to pave over their niche though

02:53:41 decimation: plus symbolics decided to waste their money on california real estate or some such craziness

02:53:44 asciilifeform: toyota may in some sense with it could 'pave over' bentley, but reality does not care about this

02:54:20 asciilifeform: it is hilarious to read about all of the various nicks, bruises, paper cuts found on the corpse of symbolics corp.

02:54:26 asciilifeform: while ignoring the bullet hole in its head

02:54:44 decimation: what is the 'bullet hole'?

02:54:59 asciilifeform: (withdrawal of the infinite usg money it relied on - directly, and indirectly - through the major clients being usg ops)

02:55:35 asciilifeform: 'artist picked the wrong medici'

02:55:36 decimation: yeah makes sense. intel, being of silicon valley, was always a little more insulated from usg

02:56:03 decimation: its clients all were all arms of usg, but it wasn't directly supported by usg

02:56:11 asciilifeform: intel did not instrinsically - by its very nature - rely on rich prince

02:56:13 asciilifeform: symbolics - did

02:56:25 asciilifeform: because it was not selling a plebe product.

02:56:46 asciilifeform: go and try market a scanning electron microscope for consumer market.

02:57:34 decimation: rich princes being famous for their fickle tastes

02:58:52 BingoBoingo: Related http://deadspin.com/diamondbacks-fire-grit-lord-kirk-gibson-1639670513

02:58:54 assbot: Diamondbacks Fire Grit Lord Kirk Gibson

02:58:54 asciilifeform: the other interesting observation is that lm in 1980s was expensive for far different reason than it would be today

02:58:59 asciilifeform: and it would be far more expensive today!

02:59:24 asciilifeform: then - the sheer quantity of logic necessary.

03:00:09 asciilifeform: why it would be quite expensive today - i'll leave as an exercise for anyone still awake.

03:00:54 BingoBoingo: why it would be quite expensive today - i'll leave as an exercise for anyone still awake. << People who could make it, exceedingly expensive today if hired for the task of making it.

03:01:11 asciilifeform: nope.

03:01:26 *: asciilifeform could easily make, and would work for room & board

03:01:27 decimation: logic is much cheaper

03:02:06 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform could easily make, and would work for room & board << Because you love the idea of it

03:02:20 decimation: one would become an enemy of the wintel bezzle lords

03:02:43 asciilifeform: the reason is entirely mundane

03:03:00 decimation: although that has not stopped arm

03:03:04 asciilifeform: if you had a truly clean break with the age of turdware -

03:03:11 asciilifeform: there would be a market for about six machines.

03:03:35 asciilifeform: divide the r&d and production cost by that figure. that's how much each unit would have to cost to... break even.

03:03:42 decimation: ah, you would have to rewrite bezzle wintel software stack

03:03:50 asciilifeform: forget even this

03:03:56 asciilifeform: you'd have to come up with your own... dram

03:04:08 decimation: heh yeah

03:04:09 asciilifeform: bus topology

03:04:10 asciilifeform: etc

03:04:23 decimation: I would throw ddr in the trash

03:04:39 asciilifeform: i've argued in the past that you have to ditch... binary. if you want to be rid of the 'floating point' abomination.

03:05:24 asciilifeform: likewise, for dataflow cpu fabric (the only truly reasonable way to build a computer) - existing logic synthesis methods are unsuitable.

03:05:25 decimation: oh yeah, so I was thinking about why people use floating point to answer mp's question

03:05:40 BingoBoingo: So... the ferguson thing looks like it might turn into open war...

03:05:49 asciilifeform: even the gate libraries used by extant semiconductor fab houses would have to be thrown.

03:05:50 decimation: it is because of the dynamic range allowed in a single blob

03:06:20 Duffer1: BingoBoingo, i haven't been following it, riots yet?

03:06:33 BingoBoingo: Duffer1: They never really stopped

03:06:41 BingoBoingo: http://www.mediaite.com/online/ferguson-police-chief-sparks-riots-after-trying-to-join-protesters-calling-for-his-resignation/

03:06:42 assbot: Ferguson Police Chief Sparks Riots After Trying to Join Protesters Calling for His Resignation | Mediaite

03:06:46 Duffer1: ah

03:07:08 BingoBoingo: Fat chief joined a crowd calling for his resignation. What result can be expected.

03:07:20 BingoBoingo: Not really a question.

03:07:44 Duffer1: seen this one yet Bingo? (turn it down) http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-south-carolina-state-trooper-charged-over-traffic-stop-shooting-n211156

03:07:45 assbot: Ex-South Carolina State Trooper Charged Over Traffic Stop Shooting - NBC News

03:07:59 BingoBoingo: Saw that one.

03:08:01 decimation: asciilifeform: most fpgas are not very suitable either

03:08:11 asciilifeform: decimation: this is discussed on my site.

03:08:25 decimation: yeah the old xilinx part

03:08:25 BingoBoingo: Duffer1: Notice how quickly that "officer" was indicted for something?

03:09:01 Duffer1: good things there was video of it

03:09:19 BingoBoingo: "Officer" in quotes because in the Western tradition the roles of "officer" and enlisted are different.

03:11:59 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1HEqagVO9g << possibly interesting to you

03:11:59 assbot: Poma Ads: Hypercard Commercial Report (1987) - YouTube

03:12:03 BingoBoingo: Following the Anglos on anything has never been a good move though. Ever since the vowel shift turned the Britons into Barbarians at least.

03:13:32 Duffer1: oh damn i'm sure those "i am darren wilson" bracelets didn't help the situation much lol

03:13:35 Duffer1: good lord

03:13:36 BingoBoingo: I fully endorse hypercard

03:14:08 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: virtually none of my readers showed any signs of liking it for the same reason i did.

03:14:23 asciilifeform: generally, they like it 'because pretty ux buttons'

03:14:38 BingoBoingo: Duffer1: You have to understand Middle Western understated racism is a more dangerous creature than Angola prison for a reason.

03:15:27 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I tended to like it because in Highschool I had Hypercard, a giant TI-89, ot Compaq dos

03:15:33 BingoBoingo: *or

03:15:41 asciilifeform: or that. nostalgia.

03:15:59 decimation: I used hp-48gx in high school

03:16:07 asciilifeform: (i haven't any for it. i actually associate the environment it ran on with school, which was a misery)

03:17:01 decimation: I remember trying hypercard in school, but I was introduced too late - didn't understand why it was more compelling than hypertext

03:17:18 asciilifeform: decimation: the reason - understandability.

03:17:25 asciilifeform: the totality thereof.

03:17:26 *: BingoBoingo also used hypercard astonishingly to keep my dick wet, organizing girls into nights of the week.

03:17:52 decimation: yeah hypercard enabled 'regular humans' to actually 'program'

03:18:09 decimation: the closest thing in modern mac os is the 'automater' tool, but it's not maintained

03:18:09 asciilifeform: again, unrelated.

03:18:29 asciilifeform: the abominable 'english-like' scripting language lured various people who thought they could never stomach programming into trying

03:18:29 BingoBoingo: decimation: The beauty was you could program without the quotes, until the PPC port

03:18:33 asciilifeform: but this is neither here nor there.

03:18:41 asciilifeform: that aspect - never appealed to me

03:18:46 asciilifeform: never needed this sugar

03:19:31 asciilifeform: to understand what is 'understandability' - look at its opposite.

03:19:43 asciilifeform: sussman, surrendering to decay:

03:19:44 asciilifeform: 'You have to do basic science on your libraries to see how they work, trying out different inputs and seeing how the code reacts.'

03:19:57 decimation: something like how xml is written in plain text but ususually completely opaque

03:20:09 asciilifeform: (discussed here, for example - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=603856 )

03:20:10 assbot: It it just me who is seeing a cowardly surrender to cultural decay here? From th... | Hacker News

03:20:29 BingoBoingo: decimation: Only when MIcrosoft, Red Hat, or Oracle touches it.

03:22:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2608 @ 0.00074947 = 1.9546 BTC [+]

03:23:10 decimation: yeah I remember that sussman quote, it is depressing

03:24:30 BingoBoingo: reeses: https://xkcd.com/298/ << Actually dreamed a lucrative tablet game last night. Background is a topless redhead. Foreground is "Space Invaders" goal is to keep falling apples from covering the nipples.

03:24:30 assbot: xkcd: Tesla Coil

03:27:37 *: BingoBoingo has kind of come to appreciate the crazy of TempleOS

03:27:47 decimation: that guy is seriously crazy

03:28:35 BingoBoingo: of course he is, but who said that is necessarily wrong?

03:28:42 asciilifeform: decimation: 'crazy' is the reason he actually got to work!

03:29:04 asciilifeform: by his own admission - he was rescued from labouring as a programmer by 'disability' pension from usg.

03:29:10 BingoBoingo: TempleOS is basically x86-64 playgroung

03:29:12 asciilifeform: which required a certification of insanity

03:29:18 asciilifeform: in his case

03:29:37 *: BingoBoingo wishes he could have such a grand form of crazy.

03:29:40 asciilifeform: so we do not actually know how much he is truly batshit, and how much - is just playing the necessary role.

03:29:52 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3MN5G3T.txt )

03:29:52 BingoBoingo: !b 1

03:30:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24450 @ 0.00075117 = 18.3661 BTC [+] {3}

03:30:57 asciilifeform: i have often direly envied the man his schizophrenia - or acting skills, as the case may be.

03:31:44 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The differentiation is indeed difficult. I dunno that his flavor exists in the new DSM V

03:32:03 BingoBoingo: DSM IV-TR has some contending designations.

03:32:31 asciilifeform: and then there is the undocumented talmud used by usg bureaucrats to determine who qualifies for lifetime pensions.

03:32:35 BingoBoingo: IS that match/mismatch an indicator of acting or otherwise?

03:34:12 decimation: apparently sabu of anonymous was living in a usg welfare apartment

03:34:43 asciilifeform: as did limonov.

03:36:25 BingoBoingo: Don't forget Thermos and Nefario...

03:37:15 decimation: sabu was a puerto rican - an island that raises living off usg largess to an art form

03:37:23 asciilifeform: a professional scammer not scamming usg also, would be like a pro mechanic who won't fix own car

03:37:49 decimation: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/13-population-puerto-rico-gets-food-stamps-2-billion-2012

03:37:50 assbot: 1/3 Population of Puerto Rico Gets Food Stamps--$2 Billion in 2012 | CNS News

03:38:33 asciilifeform: decimation: approximately - food stamps are given to groups, rather than people. not formally, of course - but in practice.

03:38:46 asciilifeform: if you are not part of one of these groups - you will not be in the running for any handouts in usa.

03:38:50 asciilifeform: limonov - was in such a group.

03:38:53 asciilifeform: one such

03:38:59 asciilifeform: puerto rico is one such group today

03:39:06 decimation: limonov was crazy?

03:39:20 BingoBoingo: Thor: http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-driver-charged-for-bashing-a-passenger-in-the-head-1639711808/+leahfinnegan

03:39:20 assbot: Uber Driver Charged for Bashing a Passenger In the Head With a Hammer

03:39:23 asciilifeform: no. he was a russian/jewish emigre in '70s

03:40:15 decimation: ah, so 'favored ally' of the fdr socialists running things in that era

03:40:54 BingoBoingo: decimation> ah, so 'favored ally' of the fdr socialists running things in that era << Not so limited. To Understand the West you have to understand their hard ons, Jews and Isis.

03:41:36 decimation: I don't get the jews. why do they care about jews? They are just a small subset of europeans among the unwashed masses of europeans

03:41:52 *: danielpbarron slaps decimation around a bit with a large Bible

03:42:17 decimation: danielpbarron: don't tell me you are dispensationalist?

03:43:35 BingoBoingo: decimation: Jews because they are the non-ISIS middle east hedgemon, gotta catch them ALL, HEDGEMON!!!

03:43:53 danielpbarron: i'm not sure what that means, decimation

03:45:00 BingoBoingo: decimation: danielpbarron Is a Christan warrior of an Olde school

03:45:59 decimation: among other things, a sect of Christianity that is premillennial, some of whom believe that the jews must be gathered in the middle east to start the end of the world and Jesus's return

03:47:16 asciilifeform: decimation: 'favored ally' of the fdr socialists << nope. of the anti-soviet u.s. 'backbone'

03:47:22 BingoBoingo: decimation: danielpbarron's Xtianity may be older, pre-vowel shift

03:47:41 asciilifeform: decimation: engineered 'brain drain' was a weapon in use at the time

03:47:50 danielpbarron: God causes all things; there is no "need to."

03:48:08 asciilifeform: decimation: folks from soviet blok were lured with imaginary 'nice' jobs, the proverbial fifty types of sausage, posh cars, etc.

03:48:25 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> decimation: 'favored ally' of the fdr socialists << nope. of the anti-soviet u.s. 'backbone' << Patton's "Murica

03:48:31 decimation: asciilifeform: 'anti-soviet' and 'anti-communist' but not 'anti-leftist'

03:48:46 asciilifeform: reality - drive cab, or collect 'welfare'

03:48:49 dub: 50 types of forcemeat the soviet dream

03:50:12 BingoBoingo: dub> 50 types of forcemeat the soviet dream << There is good forcemeat

03:51:07 decimation: I look forward to the next regime change in the us so that the 'anti-communists' can be named

03:51:10 asciilifeform: what you call 'forcemeat' we called 'doctor's sausage' for some reason.

03:54:05 decimation: I quite enjoy a good mortadella

03:54:07 BingoBoingo: I mean the french can do it well, just when we have aspiring diesel that would suppose "Freedom Fries"

03:54:07 danielpbarron: forcemeet sounds like a jedi dating site

03:54:07 asciilifeform: (for the ethnowank aficionados, it is generally thought that limonov was a 'paper' jew - i.e. signed on as one to get visa to usa)

03:55:14 asciilifeform: herr l. is near the top of my list of rich'n'famous folks i'd personally enjoy seeing in here.

03:55:30 asciilifeform: we could start with his idea of 'young and old men ought to live in separate countries.'

03:56:05 asciilifeform: or let him explain how to recreate the lifestyle of a mongol hordesman in modern times

03:56:10 asciilifeform: (he appears to know how)

03:56:49 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (for the ethnowank aficionados, it is generally thought that limonov was a 'paper' jew - i.e. signed on as one to get visa to usa) << In the middle West you get plastic jews, people who undergoe trans ethnicism for lawyer jobs

03:56:51 BingoBoingo: The tend to be ostracized by actual people of Yweh's nose, but no local WASPs care

03:57:11 asciilifeform: lol, lawyers have ethnic mafia there ?

03:57:36 asciilifeform: or is it that other folks won't go to a 'goy' lawyer ?

03:58:58 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: More people want a Goy lawyer, but don't want an actual Goy. The actual goys tend to retreat to either left coast after law school.

03:59:43 BingoBoingo: And in Law school the Goy's can't call out aspiring goy's because PC

04:00:33 BingoBoingo: In the courtroom, who doesn't want a pipe hitting member of the tribe on their team?

04:02:11 decimation: these days I doubt you would find much difference between 'mainstream' Christianity and 'mainstream' Judaism

04:02:23 danielpbarron: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11%3A19-24&version=NKJV

04:02:24 assbot: Romans 11:19-24 NKJV - You will say then, Branches were - Bible Gateway

04:02:26 decimation: therefore I am dubious that folk would be able to differentiate

04:03:58 decimation: danielpbarron: how many Christian churches actively proselytize the Jews?

04:04:44 danielpbarron: how could I know such a thing?

04:05:06 BingoBoingo: http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/23-20.htm

04:05:07 assbot: Ezekiel 23:20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

04:06:38 decimation: danielpbarron: I'm not accusing you of anything - I am just tired of nominal Christians in the us kowtowing to Israel

04:07:26 danielpbarron: i'm not worried about Israel -- God will do as he pleases

04:09:35 *: asciilifeform likes to suggest pondering theological implications of a glassed middle east

04:10:34 decimation: Ted Cruz sure does http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/why-christians-are-criticizing-ted-cruz-and-israel/

04:10:35 assbot: Why Christians Are Criticizing Cruz—and Israel | The American Conservative

04:10:45 danielpbarron: I doubt it very much, since the city of Jerusalem is literally God

04:11:18 danielpbarron: the hypothetical nuking of Israel, that is.

04:11:29 BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform likes to suggest pondering theological implications of a glassed middle east << With sufficient yields can make spotting the oil easier

04:12:03 danielpbarron: but try to nuke God; see what happens.

04:12:51 asciilifeform: if you get the same old crater - perhaps he lives elsewhere

04:13:43 assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1GRQRW0.txt )

04:13:43 BingoBoingo: !b 2

04:17:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16522 @ 0.0007522 = 12.4278 BTC [+] {3}

04:20:02 BingoBoingo: Looking at his last century and spz. a sense of humor... perhaps god lives in Spain's sewers?

04:30:36 BingoBoingo: !up Mrstickball

04:30:43 BingoBoingo: !up hguux

05:13:34 BingoBoingo: Fuckers better win this baseball game

05:17:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.00074941 = 7.2693 BTC [-] {2}

05:27:21 BingoBoingo: !up w0ot

05:28:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00074785 = 4.4123 BTC [-]

06:43:51 thestringpuller: silent as fuck tonight

06:47:58 BingoBoingo: WTF??? http://www.coindesk.com/diamond-circle-launches-first-cashless-bitcoin-atm/

06:47:58 assbot: Diamond Circle Launches First Cashless Bitcoin ATM

06:50:08 bounce: because compared to that evil cash, visa and mastercard are so much better propositions... for the customer.

07:09:10 xmj: another day

07:09:13 xmj: two more bash CVEs

07:09:15 xmj: :)

07:10:50 thestringpuller: two more?

07:10:53 thestringpuller: this is sorta terrifying

07:11:38 xmj: CVE-2014-7186 CVE-2014-7187

07:11:45 xmj: but, they're with moderate impact

07:12:04 xmj: thestringpuller: that's what happens when people actually start reading bloated software. same thing with openssl after libressl fork.

07:14:59 cazalla: BingoBoingo, these things almost alwawys come out down under

07:16:02 thestringpuller: !up moriarty

07:16:54 moriarty: visa and mastercard rules as a duopoly

07:17:07 xmj: there's american express, too

07:17:17 moriarty: they target the upper segment of the market

07:17:30 moriarty: but they're being crowded out by more prestigious but newer players

07:17:40 xmj: whom?

07:17:48 xmj: also: not the only difference.

07:18:03 BingoBoingo: Walmart has american express branded "financial products"

07:18:06 xmj: VISA + MasterCard provide the infrastructure but not the credit carts itself

07:18:15 xmj: banks need to refurbish Visa+MC.

07:18:20 xmj: AmEx does that directly

07:18:39 moriarty: JP Morgan Palladium for one

07:21:46 moriarty: sure, Visa and Mastercard are actually a consortium of banks that came together to merge their electronic funds transfer networks into one

07:21:49 moriarty: or two in this case

07:22:56 bounce: bleh, yet another marketeering vehicle

07:23:05 moriarty: so Visa came about from the now defunct IBANCO and Mastercard's counterpart is ICA

07:23:32 moriarty: and cards came about as a tabs based system between banks and departmental stores or oil companies

07:23:51 moriarty: so if you were a customer at a bank and you shopped at a departmental store, you could use such a card to settle your transactions

07:24:02 bounce: the problem is that the whole thing is optimised for appearance, not substance. technically the whole credit card thing doesn't work very well.

07:24:18 moriarty: and of course that's how American Express got its name

07:24:31 moriarty: because it was mainly dealing with postal deliveries in competition with the USPS

07:24:48 moriarty: so what you perceive as exclusivity today came from very humble beginnings :)

07:24:58 fluffypony: bounce: its because they were designed when ancient and crummy infrastructure was still a thinf

07:24:59 fluffypony: Thing

07:26:01 moriarty: lol thank god for the k-line

07:26:08 moriarty: it's about time such abuses were prevented

07:26:25 bounce: more specifically, the banking system is now so unavoidable (yet) and so privacy unfriendly that it's quickly becoming more of a hazard than a boon for the clients.

07:27:19 moriarty: bounce, there's always a tradeoff between convenience and security/privacy never forget that

07:27:25 bounce: tangentially, the more money and/or (benign) visibility you have, the easier it gets to right certain wrongs, perversely supporting broken systems like this.

07:27:56 bounce: that's a false dichotomy and therefore rationalisation bullshit

07:28:06 moriarty: bounce, and what's wrong with that

07:28:14 moriarty: if you're rich, then chances are you're doing something right

07:28:18 moriarty: and that offsets whatever you did wrong

07:28:31 bounce: we can do so much better, yet aren't doing it. we're making unnecessary tradeoffs and are telling ourselfs it's the best we can have so suck it up

07:28:34 moriarty: if you're poor then, well, you need to get started on balancing all the red in your ledgers

07:28:35 moriarty: :)

07:28:56 moriarty: bounce, it's the new world where if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to hide

07:28:57 bounce: hi paris, congratulations on having stopped being poor

07:29:15 moriarty: paris has superior genes

07:30:29 bounce: will you donate the money for gene therapy against poorness to any and all poor who come asking?

07:31:05 moriarty: bounce, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYLon-rki10

07:31:06 assbot: Paris Hilton - Stars Are Blind HD - YouTube

07:31:24 xmj: you're evil, moriarty

07:31:26 moriarty: bounce, haha you're hilarious

07:31:42 bounce: logical conclusion from your own troll, dear

07:32:00 moriarty: xmj, at least i'm not google, i don't pretend to do no evil :) and then rape everyone

07:32:13 moriarty: xmj, it's funny how google and NSA have the same objectives as organisations

07:32:15 xmj: bounce: the cheaper option is to prevent dysgenics..

07:32:24 xmj: moriarty: one is private company

07:32:24 thestringpuller: Vidya games

07:32:45 xmj: moriarty: at least, google does not rely on government-granted monopoly of force

07:32:46 moriarty: xmj, both collect all data on everybody and exploit it

07:32:49 moriarty: xmj, same difference

07:32:52 xmj: moriarty: yes

07:33:01 xmj: moriarty: difference: you can buy GOOG stock and benefit from it

07:33:06 xmj: can't do that with NSA Inc.

07:33:22 moriarty: bounce, well, i am not against genetic therapy, as long as it's a permanent change and not a superficial treatment

07:33:32 moriarty: bounce, if you can fix your genes to be permanently superior, then i'm all for it

07:33:44 moriarty: i.e. when you pass it on to some offspring, you don't have to fix it again

07:33:45 xmj: http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Pages/default.aspx

07:33:45 assbot: Welcome to the City of London Corporation

07:33:48 bounce: if everybody does that then they're no longer superior

07:33:52 xmj: City of London Corporation

07:33:56 xmj: in case you were confused.

07:33:59 moriarty: xmj, with NSA, you can as well

07:34:02 moriarty: xmj, just buy the USD

07:34:09 xmj: moriarty: not the same thing

07:34:14 moriarty: xmj, sure it is

07:34:20 xmj: USD does not represent equity in the US government.

07:34:34 xmj: at best, it's foreign capital

07:34:35 BingoBoingo: Bah, moriarty You've gone some broken ideas on how stratification works

07:34:54 bounce: but the takeaway ought to be that you (ie, those in power) are rigging the system then blaming the victims for having let the system end up being rigged against them.

07:34:54 xmj: BingoBoingo: assortative mating works differently :)

07:35:12 xmj: bounce: that's a perfectly valid strategy

07:35:15 xmj: -- if you're sociopath

07:35:21 moriarty: xmj, oh you want a more direct implication? invest in Boeing, CSC, Northrop Grumman, Booz, SAIC

07:35:24 moriarty: need i say more? :)

07:35:40 xmj: moriarty: still not US Government equity

07:35:43 moriarty: xmj, you thought the NSA was designed for something other than economic superiority?

07:35:55 moriarty: xmj, oh you want something more direct, try t-bills

07:35:56 BingoBoingo: The point is if you are a Hilton that sucks, you can make porn or Biodiesel.

07:35:58 xmj: certainly: risk mitigation


07:36:13 moriarty: BingoBoingo, heh what's your view point on stratification?

07:36:14 xmj: jesus fucking christ.

07:36:29 moriarty: xmj, Boeing has no equity? :)

07:36:32 fluffypony: moriarty is best troll

07:36:39 fluffypony: <3

07:36:40 moriarty: do you realise the extent of NSA's contractual dishouts?

07:36:42 xmj: fluffypony: yeah, he's currently driving me up the walls.

07:36:45 xmj: <3

07:36:52 xmj: i may learn from him

07:37:05 moriarty: it's to the tune of 8 billion yearly

07:37:10 xmj: but first, i have to finish porting GitLab to FreeBSD, it'll be done by tonight.

07:37:10 BingoBoingo: moriarty: Aristocracy is great, but... You've got to maintain a position in it. If you suck it doesn't matter that you're a Borgia.

07:37:19 moriarty: lol then again i don't think many people in here know too much about stocks or ##econometrics

07:37:24 xmj: BingoBoingo: assortative mating.

07:37:28 moriarty: so why am i wasting my breath on the uninitiated?

07:37:45 moriarty: BingoBoingo, agreed, but aristocracy is based on flair and looks :)

07:37:57 xmj: BingoBoingo: recently I read a paper on how English peers in the 14th through 16th century mated.

07:38:02 moriarty: BingoBoingo, if you're ugly or keep offending people, then chances are you won't last very long on that throne

07:38:02 bounce: where?

07:38:05 xmj: BingoBoingo: assortative mating is where it's at

07:38:07 xmj: :3

07:38:32 xmj: thankfully, good genes are heritable.

07:38:44 xmj: My plan is to become rich and marry a non-stupid model. :)

07:38:51 moriarty: brilliance in a super model

07:38:57 moriarty: lol that's the quintessential nerd's dream

07:39:08 moriarty: like that ever makes a difference when you're busy banging the broad

07:39:12 bounce: depends on what you're calling brilliant.

07:39:16 xmj: moriarty: everyone loves a good unicorn

07:39:18 moriarty: bounce, lol

07:39:34 xmj: moriarty: once you factor in genetics, you obviously want the unicorn.

07:39:35 moriarty: xmj, personally i prefer my broads dumb

07:39:44 bounce: well, you just all but declared your interest in ms. hilton, didn't you?

07:39:48 xmj: fluffypony: how long have you screened until you found your charming girl? :p

07:39:51 moriarty: bounce, of course :)

07:40:05 moriarty: bounce, wanna see my new girlfriend?

07:40:09 xmj: marrying rich is the other alternative..

07:40:28 fluffypony: xmj: met her when I was 28

07:40:48 moriarty: marrying rich is indicative that your spouse-to-be is not as bright as you claim you'd be attracted by

07:40:54 xmj: fluffypony: screened long enough, then?

07:40:57 moriarty: if they're marrying down, then they're not being very efficient

07:41:14 bounce: that depends entirely on what they themselves define to be efficient

07:41:16 xmj: moriarty: or you're showing promise to be rich on your own

07:41:17 fluffypony: xmj: yeah, call it 10 years or so:-P

07:41:24 xmj: fluffypony: :)

07:41:26 moriarty: bounce, evolution has a pretty standardised template on that

07:41:32 moriarty: xmj, promise is not the same as track record

07:41:42 xmj: yeah, well, promise is promise

07:41:42 moriarty: xmj, seems i have to dumb everything down for you

07:41:51 moriarty: xmj, yeah you can promise me the moon, doesn't mean jack

07:41:51 bounce: IOW, what they want out of life. definitions of "success" differ markedly across various people.

07:41:52 xmj: moriarty: water is wet, did you know?

07:41:54 moriarty: show me the money, xmj

07:42:11 moriarty: bounce, success as defined by evolutionary survival

07:42:20 xmj: bounce: tru dat. certain people consider 5+ children as success

07:42:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18970 @ 0.00075176 = 14.2609 BTC [+] {2}

07:42:36 bounce: some think a few kids but a giant nest egg would serve them better

07:42:41 moriarty: defining your own success metrics means nothing in the face of being a top-ranked hustler in society

07:42:56 moriarty: it's all about how high you climb in society in terms of status, power and fortune

07:43:04 bounce: some think dumb women are easier to handle and therefore a surer way to success

07:43:10 moriarty: :) and with that comes the implicit requirements for looks, intellect and social grace

07:43:22 moriarty: bounce, i like dumb women because they know how society functions

07:43:31 moriarty: bounce, the smart women are the ones who have trouble adapting to society

07:43:51 bounce: why haven't you moved to some islamic country yet?

07:44:14 moriarty: bounce, heh there's a difference between being dumb, and being dumb

07:44:31 bounce: sure, invent arbitrary differences to support your "argument"

07:44:53 moriarty: it's arbitrary to someone who does not get the nuances of popularity, status and how society functions

07:45:05 bounce: girls /might/ learn to read there, but that's it. no education, instant knowledge how society functions. there you go.

07:45:17 moriarty: when i say dumb, it's not as simple as academics

07:45:43 moriarty: lol dumb is someone in the words of Deng Xiaoping, cherish obscurity, hide brilliance

07:45:59 bounce: that's no models for you then

07:46:08 moriarty: well how big is China's economy now?

07:46:08 moriarty: :)

07:46:10 moriarty: some model

07:46:31 bounce: nononono, models derive existence and proceeds from being seen

07:46:36 bounce: you can't have both here

07:48:23 bounce: same with trophy wives, for that matter

07:52:56 xmj: 10:42:57 <+moriarty> it's all about how high you climb in society in terms of status, power and fortune

07:53:03 xmj: ultra-calvinist point of view

07:53:08 xmj: it's about creating a Legacy.

08:00:39 BingoBoingo: !up moriarty

08:04:47 moriarty: bounce, well, the effects are visible without having to explicitly state one's own brilliance

08:05:04 moriarty: i think that's what is meant when someone aspires for an intellectual girl

08:06:08 moriarty: i.e. someone who explicitly shows off her intellectual prowess, and while that's welcome, it is the more subtle girl who exerts her intelligence socially that is probably someone i admire more, moreover because social mastery is something more elusive than academic

08:07:08 bounce: "dumb" isn't the right word for that, not even close.

08:07:39 moriarty: and a girl who is confident in her intelligence need not always be so nerdy about it, i.e. she can act like a normal human being without telling me about the intricacies of quantum field theory and the fundamental tradeoffs between continuous/discretisation of spacetime continuum binded together by the graviton or loop quantum gravity

08:09:43 moriarty: sure, on outward appearance she appears dumb because she likes all the conventional things that a popular girl likes :) hair straighteners, mixers, proms, but i value such a girl who can master social situations and get people to do what she wants implicitly

08:10:30 moriarty: and academic mastery is trivial at this point :) so she need not flaunt it because well, flaunting your intellectual superiority is a surefire way to arouse envy and be at odds with having social grace

08:10:35 moriarty: so yeah quintessentially dumb :)

08:10:40 moriarty: but my kind of girl

08:11:17 bounce: think your definition of "not dumb" is a bit too narrow. there's such a thing as kinds of intelligence (we know this inasmuch as we know what intelligence is anyway, which we don't, not really), and what you're rooting for is "social intelligence", something girls tend to be better with than boys

08:12:12 moriarty: xmj, well if calvinism is attributable as a predecessor to capitalism then i don't see what's so bad about it

08:12:32 bounce: whereas your definition inasmuch as it is one also includes girls that have no intelligence whatsoever, of any kind. those exist too, you know.

08:12:32 moriarty: with regards to paving the way for making usury and profit-taking more acceptable socially

08:13:03 thestringpuller: where did fluffypony go?

08:13:12 bounce: out to pasture

08:13:20 moriarty: bounce, exactly :) well, i am alluding to the typical profiling of dumb vs non-dumb girls

08:13:38 fluffypony: I'm still here

08:13:38 moriarty: bounce, the perception that comes with what constitutes a dumb girl and an intellectual girl is more deceptive than first sight

08:13:40 xmj: moriarty: check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism

08:13:40 assbot: The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

08:14:00 fluffypony: Jusr not paying much attention to the convo

08:14:08 fluffypony: Cause on iPad

08:14:20 bounce: sorry to hear that

08:14:23 *: xmj gives fluffypony keyboard

08:14:28 fluffypony: lol

08:15:24 moriarty: xmj, sure i'm aware of how calvinism leads to capitalism in response to some hindering medieval positions of how we cannot contribute to our own betterment

08:15:31 moriarty: xmj, and i'm all for that :)

08:16:30 bounce: curious how some religions cause people to better themselves and others to mostly kill everybody else

08:16:37 moriarty: xmj, the model of self-reliance is a good model to have, it dispels away with all the illnesses and perversions that comes with a more fatalistic view of society, think conspiracy theorists, suicide bombers, basically people who perceive their own destinies are unchangeable and thus resort to such desperate measures or justification of reality in order to make life more livable

08:16:55 xmj: bounce: protestantism lead to betterment mostly via increasing the literacy rate

08:17:08 moriarty: bounce, well, religion is basically philosophy

08:17:09 xmj: you can actually track that throgh earlier, higher, GDP growth.

08:17:14 moriarty: bounce, ultimately the superior philosophy prevails

08:17:20 moriarty: bounce, that's why some countries are superior to others

08:17:21 xmj: especially if you compare against catholic parts of countries/countries

08:17:33 moriarty: philosophy underpins constitutions, and if you set up your nation proper, then you will get a thriving economic powerhouse

08:17:40 moriarty: set it up wrongly, and you are doomed permanently

08:17:53 moriarty: my viewpoint is people's elections of leadership is missing the point

08:17:55 bounce: there's a bunch busily proving you wrong there

08:17:58 BingoBoingo: <moriarty> bounce, well, religion is basically philosophy << Bold claim

08:18:02 moriarty: if your constitution is fucked, then you're better off emigrating

08:18:07 moriarty: BingoBoingo, how's that?

08:18:30 bounce: for one because religion tends to contain a lot of "shut up and do what I say"

08:18:41 BingoBoingo: moriarty: Religion generally requires Spz. additional dependencies that philosophy per it self doesn't

08:18:47 BingoBoingo: Things like faith, etc.

08:18:56 moriarty: BingoBoingo, sure, and philosophy doesn't require faith? :)

08:19:08 BingoBoingo: Not in all of its forms.

08:19:08 moriarty: BingoBoingo, what do you think all the axioms require in a philosophical model if not faith?

08:19:23 BingoBoingo: Who needs axioms?

08:19:27 moriarty: BingoBoingo, even science requires faith

08:19:38 moriarty: everything needs axioms as Godel would have you know

08:19:39 moriarty: :)

08:19:43 bounce: nothing requires you to believe the axioms.

08:19:55 moriarty: bounce, then you cannot build any system of belief without it

08:20:00 moriarty: or any logical system even

08:20:09 BingoBoingo: There was a great gulf between Euclid and Pythagorus

08:20:41 bounce: building on axioms goes like "IFF these are true THEN it follows that...", bit of a difference from "these things ARE TRUE regardless of what reality says BECAUSE GOD TOLD ME SO"

08:21:34 moriarty: bounce, well it's no different then saying, IFF God tells me so THEN it follows that...

08:21:47 bounce: you really see no difference in that?

08:21:51 moriarty: bounce, nope

08:22:03 bounce: then philosophy is dogma to you, innit

08:22:07 BingoBoingo: No difference at all?

08:22:08 moriarty: bounce, pretty much :)

08:22:28 moriarty: bounce, are you familiar with Godel's incompleteness theorem?

08:22:45 BingoBoingo: I don't know what confusion of ideas can lead to this conversation.

08:22:45 moriarty: tell me in a one-liner what you think the first incompleteness theorem is espousing

08:23:02 moriarty: let me help clarify your confusion, BingoBoingo

08:23:43 moriarty: the first incompleteness theorem states that under the proper conditions, there are statements that are true but not provable

08:24:33 moriarty: and these are a result from a non-isomorphic model as proven by Lowenheim-Skolem in first order logic

08:25:05 moriarty: the second part of Godel's exposition states that under proper conditions, a strong formal system cannot prove its consistency

08:25:45 moriarty: think axiom of choice, or Zorn's lemma being equivalent over the ZF set theory as such attempts and the findings prove as much

08:26:46 BingoBoingo: And yet the Moon rocket worked.

08:26:53 bounce: that still doesn't require belief. let me give you a simile.

08:26:57 moriarty: the power of ##econometrics and mathematics leads you to such mind-clarifying conclusions :) never underestimate the power of knowledge to distill the world with such ease

08:27:22 moriarty: BingoBoingo, sure, or that a bitcoin trader profited

08:27:27 moriarty: what does that tell you? not a lot

08:27:35 moriarty: are his axioms or beliefs correct? maybe, maybe not

08:27:48 moriarty: it's the classical Humean induction dilemma

08:28:03 moriarty: bounce, sure, go ahead

08:28:09 BingoBoingo: moriarty: Well what happen to poor Cantor in the end after meditating on Cardinality so long?

08:28:46 BingoBoingo: How bored as a lens grinder did SPinoza have to be to develop his system?

08:29:01 bounce: consider, if you will, philosophy to ideas as math is to numbers; you can start with axioms and build on top of them. you can admire the building, you can refine it, you can start over and build something else. nothing requires to believe in your own bullshit, though if you'd like, you can at your own peril. probably going to get you some scorn from other philosophers if you do.

08:29:25 moriarty: BingoBoingo, how much fun did Feynman have as raconteur, playboy and bongo player :)

08:30:01 BingoBoingo: How funny are fundamentals, when you consider the anatomic fundament?

08:30:28 moriarty: BingoBoingo, how wealthy did Newton die off in the end and the power he amassed politically and economically?

08:30:41 moriarty: for every ludicrous example you have there are more counterexamples :)

08:30:52 bounce: in comparison and contrast, religion typically starts with teaching you about a building constructed aeons ago, likely by confused shepherds high on whatever it was they were smoking, and requires you to live by its tenets. quite possibly at the peril of your life, if not at least at the peril of your eternal soul.

08:32:04 bounce: equate them and you'd be equating brazilian slums to downtown london or something. it's a little confused.

08:33:11 BingoBoingo: !up Feynman, Newton worked on problems with applications. Cantor, Spinoza drowned in fundamentals.

08:33:52 BingoBoingo: !up moriarty

08:37:25 moriarty: bounce, religion is basically at its most simplest an assortment of teachings on how to live life optimally within the constructs of society at that point in time

08:37:40 moriarty: bounce, this is not too dissimilar from constitutions of today which are viewed with such sacred respect

08:37:51 xmj: fun fact: ideology is virtually indistinguishable from religion

08:37:53 moriarty: bounce, and as such is impossible to modify the tenets of

08:37:57 xmj: every ideological sect has its pope.

08:37:57 moriarty: xmj, exactly!

08:38:05 moriarty: took the words right out of my mouth

08:38:06 xmj: including the anarchists

08:38:11 moriarty: righto

08:38:24 moriarty: BingoBoingo, the fundamentals elucidate the applications

08:38:44 moriarty: BingoBoingo, fact is, without fundamentals, you cannot achieve any sort of meaningful application, you're as good as monkeys with typewriters

08:39:04 moriarty: with fundamentals, it becomes glaringly obvious how to apply and optimise a fit-for-purpose invention

08:39:16 xmj: bounce: if you're not perceived as believing in your own philosophy, you'll a) not sell it and b) be considered hypocrite

08:39:24 moriarty: that's how it is with technical analysis vis-a-vis ##econometrics :-) heh

08:39:26 xmj: why develop a philosophy if you don't believe in it?

08:39:42 moriarty: in one, you do lots of application, in the other you do applications too, but you understand the fundamentals driving your model

08:39:47 moriarty: ask any TA-er what they understand

08:39:52 moriarty: you'd find very little if anything

08:40:08 BingoBoingo: !up blast

08:40:09 moriarty: xmj, because the mind is a playground

08:40:34 moriarty: xmj, playing devil's advocate has never been funner :) it exercises your otherwise bored mind and allows you to travel from one ideology to another and have fun with them

08:41:05 xmj: moriarty: devil's advocate requires taking someone else's ideology, putting it into a jail/sandbox, examining it

08:41:06 fluffypony: Funner is not a word

08:41:18 xmj: you can't play devils advocate on your own philosophies

08:41:40 xmj: you cannot conceivably play devil AND devil's advocate in one person UNLESS maybe you're really multiple.

08:41:44 xmj: or schizo

08:41:58 fluffypony: lulz

08:42:14 xmj: fluffypony: shush

08:42:47 moriarty: xmj, lol the world is not dichotomous and neither should individuals be :)

08:43:27 xmj: vague inapplicable statement is vague inapplicable

08:43:34 moriarty: xmj, and sure you can, it's not too dissimilar from the film Divergent :)

08:43:54 xmj: moriarty: if you want, i can spam you with vague statements that are technically correct and don't mean shit.

08:43:58 xmj: please don't do this.

08:47:59 moriarty: xmj, let's try a little credo, i see ideologies as part of a continuum, many of the questions i am interested in lies in the intersection, i tend to think in terms of probability distributions rather than dichotomous epistemic categories

08:48:05 moriarty: xmj, does that clarify things better now?

08:48:12 moriarty: sorry i tend to assume people know what i'm talking about

08:48:15 xmj: lies in the intersection of WHAT?

08:48:22 moriarty: ideologies

08:48:38 moriarty: is that clear?

08:48:43 xmj: you really really suck in terms of language preciseness, did you realize that yet?

08:48:57 moriarty: do you understand now?

08:48:58 moriarty: :)

08:49:07 moriarty: well, i tend to assume people are well-read

08:49:20 moriarty: so when i use certain phrases, it elucidates certain concepts and principles from famous books and works

08:49:30 moriarty: but hey if you need me to espouse further i'm always happy to oblige

08:51:13 xmj: you know, you're a dickhead.

08:51:25 xmj: "I tend to assume people are well-read"

08:51:25 moriarty: hehe

08:51:28 xmj: yeah, i'm well-read

08:51:34 xmj: and yeah, you suck at communicating precisely.

08:51:38 xmj: stop being a dickhead.

08:51:43 xmj: be precise from the beginning

08:51:49 moriarty: precision takes time

08:51:57 moriarty: that's why culture exists

08:52:17 moriarty: when you make a joke, you don't want to explain the entire innuendo and corresponding nuances associated to be precise about your joke

08:52:23 moriarty: it's the imprecision that captivates, makes you giggle

08:52:31 moriarty: and if you don't get the joke, well, explaining it would kill the joke

08:52:32 moriarty: :)

08:52:39 bounce: therefore, you are the joke

08:52:44 moriarty: the double, triple, quadruple entendres

08:52:45 *: bounce kills moriarty

08:52:50 moriarty: lol bounce

08:52:51 *: moriarty dies

08:52:52 moriarty: owh

08:52:54 moriarty: :'(

08:53:21 xmj: ...

08:53:23 *: bounce sets mode +rumpelstiltskin on user moriarty for channel #bitcoin-assets

08:53:31 moriarty: pshaw

08:56:03 moriarty: xmj, but in short, philosophies are nothing more than gedanken experiments designed to hypothesize what would happen in a given closed loop system, and then society tests them

08:56:23 moriarty: xmj, and generally the optimal solutions lie at the intersections, which ironically if you think about it is the textbook definition of creativity

08:56:26 xmj: that's like saying

08:56:35 xmj: sex is nothing more than a theory, and then people fuck

08:56:39 moriarty: the intersection of factoids in our minds is the hallway of creativity

08:56:44 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.14300002 = 0.858 BTC [-] {2}

08:56:46 xmj: do you realize how inconsistent you think?

08:56:56 RagnarDanneskjol: hah

08:56:57 moriarty: when you transcend one discipline with a concept, and apply it in another discipline, that's creativity in a nutshell

08:57:23 moriarty: xmj, maybe english is not your first language

08:57:33 xmj: well, duh.

08:57:34 moriarty: so it seems imprecise, but every different word has a slightly different implication

08:57:43 moriarty: and simplifying statements would not make it easier to understand them

08:57:45 xmj: moriarty: maybe thinking is not your best activity.

08:57:47 moriarty: you lose the meaning actually

08:57:49 bounce: even so, you're making a right hash of things

08:57:59 xmj: holy cow

08:58:16 xmj: see, and this is why i like talking to people on the autistic spectrum when it comes to philosophy.

08:58:23 xmj: at least they're FUCKING PRECISE about things.

08:58:56 moriarty: lol you mean people whose backgrounds in philosophy are as shallow as yours?

08:59:09 moriarty: because every concept representable by a phrase or term in philosophy has books written supporting it

08:59:19 xmj: FUCK OFF.

08:59:24 moriarty: and to drill down what those concepts are about precisely is to have a conversation extending to years

08:59:25 xmj: holy crap.

08:59:27 bounce: shush xmj

08:59:33 bounce: moriarty, don't be an ass please

08:59:34 moriarty: you think i'm joking?

08:59:35 xmj: plonk /ignore -replies moriarty

08:59:45 moriarty: lol you think Heidegger exists in isolation?

08:59:57 moriarty: the whole of philosophy is a continuous conversation dating back to Aristotle

09:00:34 xmj: No time for wishy-washy blabla.

09:00:38 bounce: yes, but you're using that as a load of rationalising crap for your own shoddy use of language. call it somewhat self-serving.

09:00:42 moriarty: the problem with autistic people or my understanding of the crowd you're referring to, is that they are used to neat and concise models that exist inscience

09:00:46 moriarty: in science*

09:00:55 moriarty: no such models exist in philosophy

09:01:09 moriarty: i don't know if any of you have ever done any humanities

09:01:17 RagnarDanneskjol: oh god

09:01:24 moriarty: but the classic distinction with the liberal arts is that they tend to require an exponential effort in reading material

09:01:34 xmj: ?

09:01:37 xmj: RagnarDanneskjol: sup?

09:01:41 bounce: so what's the exponent?

09:01:43 RagnarDanneskjol: this guy

09:01:48 moriarty: bounce, lol what?

09:02:08 xmj: me?

09:02:10 bounce: see? you're using terms of art and when called upon them go like "lol what?"

09:02:11 RagnarDanneskjol: no

09:02:13 xmj: k

09:02:21 moriarty: bounce, i said exponential, not exponent

09:02:55 bounce: hmhm

09:03:31 moriarty: when i was involved in finance, my amount of reading went up hundred-fold, sure, there was a lot of overlap, but they cover different situations, and it's a bit like chess, you read all the possible moves and what you can do from there

09:03:33 moriarty: that's the arts

09:03:41 moriarty: there is no simple equation that governs most scenarios

09:03:51 moriarty: the same it is in philosophy or law

09:04:28 xmj: some people have their precision removed and think they don't

09:04:32 xmj: happens all the time.

09:05:01 bounce: law is a good case in point for what xmj was saying; you need to be very precise in what you say. a misplaced comma can easily cost millions of dollars.

09:05:36 RagnarDanneskjol: vaguely precise even will do

09:05:49 bounce: sure it's a lot of reading and sure there are a lot of people saying confused things, perhaps even deliberately confusing issues.

09:06:28 bounce: but that doesn't change the basic fact that if you actually do say exactly what you mean you still typically have a better chance of getting the point across

09:07:19 RagnarDanneskjol: it helps

09:14:06 xmj: bounce: precisely

09:14:19 xmj: explicit > implicit

09:14:23 xmj: precise > vague

09:21:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00074835 = 8.2319 BTC [-]

09:22:15 *: jurov is looking forward to the fateful day when someone suceeds in feeding of all humanitites to a computer and creating an ontology

09:32:26 jurov: http://paste.lisp.org/display/143864 "standing on the shoulders of giants"

09:35:56 jurov: or rather, piling of chairs

09:36:24 bounce: "nobody told them the input they passed wouldn't be taken as data but as code, yet it's their fault anyhow"

09:37:53 bounce: maybe the writer thinks there's great value into twisting logic like this, but he surely does not have much appreciation for the cost.

09:39:48 jurov: everyone took the environment variables at face value for 15 years... that's beyone assinging the blame

09:39:56 jurov: *beyond

09:41:11 jurov: interesting that zsh does nothing like bash with env vars, just passes them around

09:41:22 RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot

09:41:25 jurov: someone must have decided about it when coding zsh, yet nobdy realized

09:41:32 RagnarDanneskjol: !up MolokoDesk

09:42:22 RagnarDanneskjol: hey jurov, wanna see the deedbot

09:42:48 jurov: hi deedbot

09:42:59 RagnarDanneskjol: .deed http://pastebin.com/QzPGJbj6

09:42:59 assbot: deedbot test 9.26.14 - Pastebin.com

09:43:01 deedBot: KeyID: B98228A001ABFFC7 deed with 1 signatory.

09:43:01 deedBot: KeyID: 35D2E1A0457E6498 deed with 1 signatory.

09:43:04 deedBot: deed keyID: B98228A001ABFFC7 trust: 12 nick: asciilifeform (valid and scheduled for next bundle)

09:43:04 deedBot: deed keyID: 35D2E1A0457E6498 trust: 3 nick: RagnarDanneskjol (valid and scheduled for next bundle)

09:43:19 RagnarDanneskjol: now we wait until the top of the hour

09:43:27 MolokoDesk: Cyc was/is supposed to be somewhat like that. I think it doesn't handle what linguists call scripts or scenarios, but Lenat and OpenCYC are aware of the issues.

09:43:58 RagnarDanneskjol: hmm

09:44:25 MolokoDesk: (talking about feeding humanities into a computer and creating an ontology)

09:46:13 MolokoDesk: heh. I was reading about Alain Badiou last few days. He counterposes ontologies with "events" that break the ontology. His stuff is peculiar. Philosophers seem to be looking for/looking at things like unfalsifiable hypotheses, and areas where logic breaks down, the nature of paradoxes and at various limiting cases of systematized thought.

09:46:52 MolokoDesk: stuff currently outside the envelope of "understandabilty" or "logical resolution".

09:47:19 MolokoDesk: anyway, ragnar suggests it's feasible to poll or access gribble via an http interface of some sort without going through IRC/freenode.

09:47:55 MolokoDesk: I was initially scraping bitcoin-otc's web of trust search tools to get the trust metrics.

09:48:18 RagnarDanneskjol: yes that - for this context

09:48:21 bounce: openpgp in javascript. oh dear.

09:48:22 RagnarDanneskjol: at least

09:48:26 MolokoDesk: apparently that's not "trusted" here. not sure why. I know gribble is the software agent that maintains the bitcoin-otc WoT data structure.

09:48:29 punkman: MolokoDesk: you can keep a local copy of gribble's database, update once a day or something

09:49:07 jurov: or ask how assbot is doing it

09:49:09 RagnarDanneskjol: opengpg java is 'just' as secure as anything else assuming its totally isolated

09:49:17 MolokoDesk: ok. one scenario I was talking about a few minutes ago was someone vandalizes the bot and has their rating lowered below access threshold, but they're still trusted by deedBot and deedBot keeps getting vandalized.

09:49:52 MolokoDesk: the other scenario is someone urgently needs to register contracts to they're up-rated to +2 to access the bot, but it won't recognize their new rating because it "already has" that info.

09:50:15 MolokoDesk: so right now I'm looking up the trust metric for each batch of incoming contracts. it's not that much overhead.

09:50:48 MolokoDesk: making a resident agent that sit's in IRC and relays requests coming in over HTTP to gribble would work.

09:51:02 MolokoDesk: make a tiny webserver combined with a very limited IRC bot.

09:51:24 MolokoDesk: the webserver only has to open sockets and fork() a process occasionally.

09:51:34 MolokoDesk: it's like a 20 line program if even that.

09:51:41 MolokoDesk: not that I want to do that.

09:51:42 MolokoDesk: heh.

09:52:42 MolokoDesk: if there's an http interface to gribble's database that would work too. some SQL-ish RPC-ish thing.

09:52:59 punkman: http://bitcoin-otc.com/otc/ you can grab raw data here

09:53:00 assbot: Index of /otc

09:53:24 MolokoDesk: if there's confidence that the bitcoin-otc website /WoT site is not insecure I can just use my old code to get trust metrics over the web. It's the same database.

09:53:34 MolokoDesk: thanx, punkman. clue.

09:53:56 MolokoDesk: heh. the database is smaller than most image files.

09:54:02 punkman: I don't think you need to worry about vandalism or urgency

09:54:23 MolokoDesk: i wonder how often those are update.

09:54:38 RagnarDanneskjol: 15 mins i think

09:55:02 MolokoDesk: .calc 24*15

09:55:03 deedBot: 24 * 15 = 360

09:55:20 MolokoDesk: i shouldhave known that from celestial navigation. each hour is 15 degrees of arc.

09:55:41 RagnarDanneskjol: all that celestial navigation you do

09:56:50 MolokoDesk: "SQLite format" ... header in RatingSystem.db

09:57:18 MolokoDesk: yeah, writing all the SQLishness to query that database for a few people seems overkill.

09:57:40 MolokoDesk: scaling to bitcoin-otc though it would make sense.

09:59:14 RagnarDanneskjol: might be worth finding out exactly how nano uses the db to inform gribbl

09:59:59 punkman: it's on github

10:00:13 punkman: https://github.com/nanotube/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor

10:00:13 assbot: nanotube/supybot-bitcoin-marketmonitor GitHub

10:00:21 RagnarDanneskjol: i thought only sourcedforge

10:00:47 MolokoDesk: just getting set up to read that .db file could take all day

10:00:57 RagnarDanneskjol: i thought that was just one gribble's modules

10:01:01 punkman: why? sqlite is easy

10:01:11 MolokoDesk: SQLite dependencies, and associated system adminstration.

10:01:26 MolokoDesk: yeah, it's easy if you want to get involved in all that.

10:01:39 punkman: you are confusing sqlite with other beasts perhaps

10:01:43 MolokoDesk: if it's importable into mySQL it would be easy.

10:02:04 MolokoDesk: well.. let's see.. first you have to apt-get SQLite and hope it runs...

10:02:17 MolokoDesk: assuming you have sudo access on the server it's going to run on...

10:02:24 MolokoDesk: I think you see the problem

10:02:34 MolokoDesk: something can be easy but take a week to get working.

10:02:55 MolokoDesk: especially something I already have two solutions to.

10:03:03 MolokoDesk: but yeah, there's the data on a platter.

10:03:08 MolokoDesk: and it's good to know about.

10:03:23 RagnarDanneskjol: MolokoDesk - tracking bundle in other chan

10:04:32 punkman: yeah just query gribble on demand and be done with it

10:05:06 punkman: but you should try sqlite when you get a chance, it's good stuff

10:05:16 punkman: (for some other project that is)

10:05:56 RagnarDanneskjol: .dump

10:05:57 deedBot: time=1411812358 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411812025 elapsed=333

10:05:57 deedBot: TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-12e5euoDVvFGoS2V2QY1CB1mn97ETfVfSM.txt = (address = 12e5euoDVvFGoS2V2QY1CB1mn97ETfVfSM) (mtime = 1411812018) (ctime = 1411812025)

10:05:57 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#cex-squawk ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

10:05:57 deedBot: Undefined offset: 2 deedBot.php LINE 1860 Sat 2014-Sep-27 08:31:53 UTC (1 errors)

10:05:57 deedBot: (switching DEEDBOT_CHAN from #cex-squawk to #bitcoin-assets)

10:06:11 MolokoDesk: deedBot needs to be.. ok. yeah, told that it's now operating in this channel using .dump

10:06:41 RagnarDanneskjol: .balance

10:06:42 deedBot: deedBot BTC available balance: 0.00140000 in wallet 1NTSD9jVvumurTotaW7Crqe5DfRxBrJzqu

10:06:42 deedBot: deedBot unconfirmed sent: -0.00011000

10:06:46 MolokoDesk: i may use SQLite instead of mySQL eventuall.

10:06:48 MolokoDesk: y

10:07:50 *: MolokoDesk checks to see if SQLite is already installed.

10:07:55 MolokoDesk: postalrocket

10:07:57 MolokoDesk: oops

10:08:01 MolokoDesk: wrong window.

10:08:47 deedBot: Deed bundle published to filename: 322765-12e5euoDVvFGoS2V2QY1CB1mn97ETfVfSM.txt

10:08:49 deedBot: see: http://www.postalrocket.com/DEEDS/?FORM=x&SORT=x

10:08:49 assbot: DEEDS

10:09:23 MolokoDesk: gosh. it is installed.

10:11:56 punkman: they have pretty good docs too http://www.sqlite.org/docs.html

10:11:57 assbot: SQLite Documentation

10:12:11 RagnarDanneskjol: !up MolokoDesk

10:12:30 RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot

10:13:17 RagnarDanneskjol: hey punkman, this is my friend MolokoDesk - do you mind rating him so he can self voice?

10:14:22 punkman: ;;rate MolokoDesk 1 made deedbot

10:14:23 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 1 for user MolokoDesk has been recorded.

10:14:36 RagnarDanneskjol: yhank

10:16:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3177 @ 0.00074943 = 2.3809 BTC [-]

10:18:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2050 @ 0.00074943 = 1.5363 BTC [-]

10:21:11 MolokoDesk: (well. so far none of the command line commands work in sqlite on a linux box with RatingSystem.db listed as the "main" database. won't show the tables etc.

10:23:16 punkman: are you using sqlite3?

10:23:16 MolokoDesk: oh. that's because sqlite destroyed the file when I opened it with sqlite.

10:23:36 bounce: sounds useful

10:23:48 MolokoDesk: no. it's 2.8.17 I don't admin this box so I can't change that.

10:24:05 MolokoDesk: I'm sure this totally works if you're used to using it.

10:24:19 punkman: and it destroyed the file? that sounds improbable

10:24:29 punkman: you probably have sqlite3 installed as well

10:26:18 MolokoDesk: sqlite> open ?RatingSystem.db?;

10:26:19 MolokoDesk: SQL error: near "open": syntax error

10:27:15 MolokoDesk: it's like it thinks it's opening a new database with that name and zeros the file.

10:31:22 MolokoDesk: laff. nevermind. I was in the wrong directory, so it was, in fact, creating the database file.

10:34:05 MolokoDesk: ok. got it. sqlite3 RatingSystem.db then .output FOO.txt then .dump .quit cat FOO.txt

10:34:20 MolokoDesk: now I have the SQL command file to create the database.

10:34:25 RagnarDanneskjol: !down MolokoDesk

10:35:54 MolokoDesk: ok.

10:36:31 MolokoDesk: anyway, I don't wanna spam a bunch of newb sqlite3 agony here. Thanks for the suggestion regarding a new tool.

10:39:08 bounce: how's your command of SQL in general?

10:42:16 MolokoDesk: I've been doing it for a long time off and on. since like uh... 1980s

10:42:37 MolokoDesk: it's probably a turing-complete language, though I've never used it that way.

10:43:15 MolokoDesk: also one needs to know about various exploits that can get through various "...real_sql_string()" filters

10:43:25 MolokoDesk: and a buncha other stuff.

10:43:47 RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot

10:43:59 bounce: it is if you include the recursion extensions. how about relational algebra?

10:44:24 MolokoDesk: yeah, I'm kind of a math head, SQL looks sort of like COBOL or something. it works.

10:44:37 MolokoDesk: I use regular expressions frequently.

10:44:46 xmj: RagnarDanneskjol: haha for downing him and failing

10:45:00 RagnarDanneskjol: heh

10:45:11 MolokoDesk: knowing when to use various joins and such to reduce the computational load of searches or relations between tables.

10:45:57 MolokoDesk: when to index.

10:45:58 bounce: plenty people using "sql" turn out to've little inklink of the theory backing the thing and so aren't very good at using it what it's for--expressing relations between data. then you end up with a glorified key/value store, which is a waste of all that complexity. such people think mysql is a good idea.

10:46:39 MolokoDesk: oh yeah, designing the database to reflect how it's going to be used and the semantics of the data and the relations between the tables etc.

10:47:08 MolokoDesk: there are a lot of high level skills involved that wouldn't be reflected in the language reference card.

10:47:10 punkman: bounce, and people that know a lot of the theory tend to come up with shitty schemas

10:47:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42441 @ 0.0007537 = 31.9878 BTC [+] {4}

10:48:37 MolokoDesk: heh.there are conflicts of interest having to do with actually having to write and maintain a program. Many developers have no long term relationship with the results of their work, so they're concerned with optmizing return on their time with a customer they're probably only going to work with once.

10:48:53 MolokoDesk: so you get this quick and dirty code that's kind of awful in such a case.

10:49:24 MolokoDesk: some people get paid for coding instead of thinking.

10:49:27 MolokoDesk: essentially.

10:49:55 bounce: some people even get paid too much to write good code, so they write shitty code instead. too expensive to do it right.

10:50:09 MolokoDesk: open source may have remedied that culturally. If everyone is going to see your code it matters what it does, how it does it and what it looks like.

10:50:42 bounce: still plenty of awful open source code Out There

10:51:08 punkman: not awful is the exception

10:51:09 MolokoDesk: there are all kinds of oblique proverbs about commercial software development like: "good, fast and cheap, choose any two"

10:51:12 punkman: like sqlite :P

10:53:13 MolokoDesk: there's relative awful and absolute awful. Absolute awful would be something that does a join using a loop and a bunch of separate lookups. You'll see people who use declarative languages and aren't aware of the judo available in SQL. They often have no idea what the computer is actually doing, just what the language constructs accomplish in terms of final output.

10:53:47 bounce: two things I dislike about sqlite really. its lack of type checking, and it having become a bit of a hype, a "must have" in certain circles.

10:54:09 punkman: who hypes sqlite?

10:54:29 MolokoDesk: another uh delusion, I guess, is that SQL is supposed to make it easier to program. Every few years there's some software putsch that claims "you'll never have to program again, our language is so user-friendly and intuitive" I think SQL was originally promoted that way. It was going to be some 4th generation language.

10:54:58 MolokoDesk: code generator products.

10:59:01 MolokoDesk: http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/ you may find this amusing. I hope this is the one I'm thinking of. it gets increasingly gnarly in describing these computer-science diasters intrinsic to php.

10:59:02 assbot: PHP: a fractal of baddesign / fuzzy notepad

10:59:31 MolokoDesk: I use php a lot though, as a sketchpad language for rapid prototyping. it lets one do a lot without thinking about the details.

10:59:40 MolokoDesk: it's very weakly-typed.

10:59:58 MolokoDesk: I think it has implicit type conversion inconsistencies too.

11:00:26 deedBot: (One hour since last deed bundle scan: Sat 2014-Sep-27 11:00:27 UTC)

11:01:09 punkman: best to minimize the number of lines deedbot prints

11:02:31 MolokoDesk: this is verbose deedBot. nothing but a terse summary of what it decided about the contract in your pastebin bundle at the beginning, and an announcement of where it publishes the hourly bundles will show eventually/soon/next

11:03:27 MolokoDesk: the cuckoo clock announcement at the top of the hour... I'll turn that off now. and reload the bot. if nobody's waiting for a bundle to track to the blockchain.

11:03:55 RagnarDanneskjol: noone's waiting

11:06:52 punkman: mm some rain, finally

11:07:06 punkman: tea time

11:07:27 MolokoDesk: .dump

11:07:35 RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot

11:08:24 MolokoDesk: .dump

11:08:24 deedBot: time=1411816106 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411815600 elapsed=506

11:08:25 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

11:08:42 MolokoDesk: just wanted to check something: that you can't set the main channel to a nick.

11:08:48 MolokoDesk: (you can't)

11:11:00 punkman: .deed http://dpaste.com/3WT0JW5

11:11:01 assbot: dpaste: 3WT0JW5

11:11:55 punkman: .deed http://pastebin.com/7ZHFZCPE

11:11:55 assbot: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 What words say does not last. - Pastebin.com

11:11:56 deedBot: KeyID: 33588BE08B232B13 deed with 1 signatory.

11:11:57 deedBot: deed keyID: 33588BE08B232B13 trust: 8 nick: punkman (valid and scheduled for next bundle)

11:13:53 cazalla: betting league tonight BingoBoingo?

11:14:24 cazalla: panthers v bulldogs big game

11:23:16 RagnarDanneskjol: !down deedBot

11:23:25 RagnarDanneskjol: !up deedBot

11:23:37 RagnarDanneskjol: !up RagnarsBitch

11:24:12 MolokoDesk: it handled an SHA1?

11:24:28 MolokoDesk: hmn.

11:25:17 MolokoDesk: I wonder if you created a collision with two deeds that close together.

11:26:46 MolokoDesk: I probably need to add the queue we were discussing, ragnar.

11:27:09 MolokoDesk: or a refractory period where it rejects a barrage of fast deed requests.

11:27:18 RagnarsBitch: Its always done sha1 fine

11:27:39 RagnarsBitch: What is prob

11:27:48 MolokoDesk: I think the sha1 test case I was using wasn't in WoT at the time is why I've never noticed one before.

11:28:24 RagnarsBitch: I think you were. Still what's the issue?

11:28:54 MolokoDesk: I think if it's in the process of waiting for gribble and you dump another incoming deed bundle, the unbundler is asynchronous and can stomp on the chain of gribble dialogs and force a new one to start.

11:29:32 MolokoDesk: the obvious solution is to put the pastebin tokens into a queue and handle them one at a time regardless of how fast they come in.

11:29:57 RagnarsBitch: Again, where do you see it as an issue

11:30:00 MolokoDesk: if someone sets the expiration time on a pastebin to 1 minute that might not be so swell. Nobody should do that though.

11:30:23 RagnarsBitch: Last deed is fine

11:30:23 MolokoDesk: It may have just been an issue. what if two people just happen to want to .deed something at the same instant?

11:30:41 RagnarsBitch: Not a big concern

11:30:51 MolokoDesk: or someone writes a bot to spew a few deeds they have laying around.

11:31:12 RagnarsBitch: well that is a gribbl prob too

11:31:37 MolokoDesk: notice that punkman did 3WT0JW5 then did almost immediately 7ZHFZCPE

11:32:00 MolokoDesk: and didn't get an acknowledgement from deedBot about the first one ... 3WT0JW5

11:32:16 MolokoDesk: or... was deedBot not voiced?

11:32:25 RagnarsBitch: Right, first one is like a popup text thingy

11:32:37 RagnarsBitch: It couldn't be read

11:32:47 MolokoDesk: oh duh. it's dpaste not pastebin my bad.

11:32:53 RagnarsBitch: Yea

11:32:55 MolokoDesk: ok.

11:33:06 MolokoDesk: thanks, shows how I skim text in IRC.

11:33:42 MolokoDesk: I wouldn't run a trading exchange without an incoming queue.

11:33:52 MolokoDesk: you'd lose orders.

11:34:33 MolokoDesk: this is more like a xerox machine that signs in blood.

11:34:46 MolokoDesk: if it doesn't work the first time you make another copy.

11:34:51 MolokoDesk: nah, I'm going to fix that.

11:35:00 MolokoDesk: it creeps me out that there's no incoming queue.

11:35:26 MolokoDesk: dunno when though.

11:35:44 MolokoDesk: ok. it's stopped raining here and I have some chores to run out there.

11:35:47 MolokoDesk: back in a while.

11:35:56 RagnarsBitch: Take your time

11:43:18 RagnarsBitch: punkman - if you wanna see deed confirmation, need to keep bot voiced for next hour. Awaiting direction on who's to register/ hold the keys for it

11:51:37 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.14210001 = 0.5684 BTC [-] {3}

11:54:12 punkman: !up deedBot


12:00:15 deedBot: BTC SPENT: amount_withdrawn = 0.00011000 TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj.txt

12:00:58 punkman: .dump

12:00:58 deedBot: time=1411819259 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411819216 elapsed=43

12:00:58 deedBot: TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj.txt = (address = 1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj) (mtime = 1411819202) (ctime = 1411819216)

12:00:58 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

12:05:00 deedBot: Deed bundle published to filename: 322774-1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj.txt

12:05:00 deedBot: see: http://www.postalrocket.com/DEEDS/?FORM=x&SORT=x

12:05:02 assbot: DEEDS

12:07:48 punkman: ;;balance 1EURX82WPk2Yv6TLQMXGxwYJpaUsDs6tvj

12:07:48 gribble: 0.0001

13:10:55 MolokoDesk: !up deedBot

13:21:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17597 @ 0.00075121 = 13.219 BTC [-]

13:43:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21850 @ 0.00075383 = 16.4712 BTC [+] {2}

14:15:54 mircea_popescu: myriadgetsmehard: ben you are acting like the dinosaurs i get enough shit from man :) << the age old solution tried first by the infant confronted with the unimpressed adults ? make an infant support group!

14:16:26 mircea_popescu: this is why beatings are so important for education : people will do the right thing just as soon as all apparent alternatives have been exhausted. if children are isolated and beaten into submission, you wil have poetry and scientific research.

14:16:38 mircea_popescu: if children are allowed to form support groups from reality, you will have reddit.

14:17:47 mircea_popescu: the problem being, of course, that once this fork has been passed there's no way back. there isn't a phase transition from manchild seeking support from reality to adult. there's just a choice, at a narrow band of time during preadolescence somewhere.

14:18:37 mircea_popescu: if you learn japanese when you're 1 yo, you're a native speaker. if you don't, you might be able to learn some semblance later on, but for most people it'll never happen, and for a tiny minority it will still overwhelmingly never be as good.

14:20:11 mircea_popescu: once this support seeking habit forms, overwhelming it is nigh on impossible, and in any case overwhelming it would require the one thing that its existence prevents : a working mind.

14:21:38 mircea_popescu: dub: get back to me when you've stood in a cold noisy DC on a con call to mumbai for 15 hours <<< virgin after her first time : "hey, fucking is kinda fun!" old whore : "get back to me after you've had to clean two dozen sailor pricks honey"

14:26:47 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: also lol, mircea_popescu getting his boxes off dhcp just today...? < no, actually, "you had one job" woman forgot to pay netbill, ended up plugging their wifi into one of my spares so they can has interwebs they don't deserve.

14:27:59 mircea_popescu: dignork: they do have something commercial, but I did not look too close <<< then people wonder why there's a bubble. why hello sir, when people can't be bothered with even looking at the "products" their name is so bad, i suspek perhaps it may be the case there's going to be problems achieving cashflow. just a hunch.

14:28:17 mircea_popescu: but don't mind me, by all means, please continue, advertise to the social media crowd, that's where the power is lmao.

14:28:52 mircea_popescu: o hey! MolokoDesk hit me.

14:29:30 mircea_popescu: lol wunderwaffle should totally be a thing.

14:29:44 chetty: http://www.caseyresearch.com/cdd/lessons-argentine

14:29:45 assbot: Lessons from the Argentine | Casey Research

14:29:45 mircea_popescu: jesus everyone's been busy on a friday night! how am i to have a lyf with you peoples!

14:30:36 mircea_popescu: chetty are these the shills for that desert project selling $500k houses on land that costs $500k per square mile ?

14:30:38 dignork: mircea_popescu: it is a thing: http://lurkmore.to/%D0%92%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%BB%D1%8F

14:30:38 assbot: Lurkmore

14:31:05 MolokoDesk: !up deedBot

14:31:05 mircea_popescu: dignork cool then!

14:31:20 mircea_popescu: http://lurkmore.so/images/thumb/b/b1/82mmmoto.jpg/300px-82mmmoto.jpg ahahh

14:31:24 mircea_popescu: gatling tank!

14:31:36 kakobrekla: http://lurkmore.so/images/1/1b/Rasmerimeet.jpg

14:31:41 kakobrekla: dicktank

14:31:54 MolokoDesk: checking to see if deedBot meets the "it has to work" criterion.

14:32:07 mircea_popescu: dignork "Где Кошевой?! Пионэpы вундеpваффе пpитащили! " < ?

14:32:26 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk got the command list anywhere ? does it have funds ?

14:32:39 MolokoDesk: what's the wonder-wafer meme about?

14:32:51 MolokoDesk: nevermind, I'll do my homework on wonderwafer.

14:33:04 dignork: mircea_popescu: some fido period reference, i didn't have a computer then

14:33:07 mircea_popescu: o wow wunderwaffe mockery from ww2 ? definitely older than i thought

14:33:16 MolokoDesk: it has funds, ragnar put in the latest tranche, I put in the first tranche. a few bucks.

14:33:18 MolokoDesk: .balance

14:33:19 deedBot: deedBot BTC available balance: 0.00129000 in wallet 1NTSD9jVvumurTotaW7Crqe5DfRxBrJzqu

14:33:27 MolokoDesk: or uh milliBTC.

14:33:44 MolokoDesk: waffe. ah.

14:33:56 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk ok, and what are the commands ?

14:34:09 MolokoDesk: just .deed pastebin-link

14:34:12 MolokoDesk: there are some diagnostics.

14:34:15 MolokoDesk: .dump

14:34:16 deedBot: time=1411828456 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411826420 elapsed=2036

14:34:16 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

14:34:18 mircea_popescu: and .balance apparently ?

14:34:26 kakobrekla: <mircea_popescu> o wow wunderwaffe mockery from ww2 ? definitely older than i thought < yes, germans DO have the best scripts in porn.

14:34:42 MolokoDesk: that will probably go away .dump it switches the channel to the primary notification channel.

14:34:50 MolokoDesk: yeah.

14:35:33 MolokoDesk: there are some temporary commands to make it join the channel, but I'll set #bitcoin-assets as the primary channel and that will never be needed.

14:35:45 MolokoDesk: invite works too, but I may shut that off to prevent botjacking.

14:35:49 chetty: mircea_popescu, not sure about their land stuff, some little I saw did look a bit Gaults Gulchy but guy does make some decent observations about Argentina in general

14:35:55 mircea_popescu: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=jBLJUfRA

14:35:57 deedBot: KeyID: 8A736F0E2FB7B452 deed with 1 signatory.

14:35:58 deedBot: deed keyID: 8A736F0E2FB7B452 trust: 27 nick: mircea_popescu (valid and scheduled for next bundle)

14:36:05 mircea_popescu: o hey.

14:36:05 MolokoDesk: it's still mildly verbose.

14:36:16 MolokoDesk: .dump

14:36:16 deedBot: time=1411828577 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411826420 elapsed=2157

14:36:16 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

14:36:18 mircea_popescu: someone else pls put a something signed in

14:36:23 mircea_popescu: quickly!

14:36:56 MolokoDesk: when elapsed>= interval it bundles and spends and tracks to blockchain.

14:37:12 MolokoDesk: the filename uses block height since blockID seems arbitary and duplicated.

14:37:25 MolokoDesk: most/all blockchain tools on the web use block height

14:37:54 mircea_popescu: problem is you don't know the block height when you save the file, do you ?

14:38:21 MolokoDesk: no the file is saved named BUNDLE_UNSPENT-1BITCOINADDRESS.txt

14:38:43 MolokoDesk: when it's time to spend which is usuallly the next 60 seconds it changes the name to BUNDLE_PENDING...

14:38:54 mircea_popescu: aha

14:39:01 mircea_popescu: aite.

14:39:17 MolokoDesk: and when the blockheight confirm comes in it's changed to 34234-1BITCOINADDRESS.txt and published to a web-accessible directory

14:39:25 MolokoDesk: and announced.

14:39:37 mircea_popescu: and if there's a block reorg ?

14:39:43 MolokoDesk: doom

14:39:46 mircea_popescu: no good.

14:40:02 mircea_popescu: that's why i wanted the txid. txids are fixed per tx

14:40:04 MolokoDesk: ok. we need a definition of what the absolute location of a block is.

14:40:07 mircea_popescu: irrespective of the block they end up in

14:40:30 MolokoDesk: I noticed that inclusion in an orphan block would mess this up... there are often several blocks with the same blockID, at least using some tools.

14:40:32 mircea_popescu: it was never a question of block id, whatever that is

14:40:40 dignork: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=GNuUsAjF

14:40:41 deedBot: KeyID: 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6 deed with 1 signatory.

14:40:41 deedBot: deed keyID: 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6 trust: nick: (seems bogus - Discarded)

14:40:46 MolokoDesk: searching the blockchain backwards for the first occurrence of the address would do it.

14:40:50 mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust assbot dignork

14:40:51 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask dignork!~dignork@gateway/tor-sasl/dignork. Trust relationship from user assbot to user dignork: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 4 via 4 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=dignork | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=dignork | Rated since: Fri Oct 18 12:20:18 2013

14:41:02 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk why did it discard ?

14:41:22 MolokoDesk: the blockchain tracker I'm using only flags confirmation when the block is on the main chain.

14:41:35 mircea_popescu: chains can and do reorg.

14:41:38 MolokoDesk: uh, whose keysig is that?

14:41:38 dignork: mircea_popescu: this key is chained, not the same key that gribble knows i suppose

14:41:47 mircea_popescu: dignork ah, use same pls ?

14:42:05 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk i guess, but why make it fluffy ?

14:42:13 mircea_popescu: you get a tx id once you make the payment, that's invariant, use it.

14:42:16 MolokoDesk: ;;gpg info -getkey 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6

14:42:17 gribble: (gpg info [--key|--address] <nick>) -- Returns the registration details of registered user <nick>. If '--key' option is given, interpret <nick> as a GPG key ID.

14:42:18 mircea_popescu: why depend on things outside of your control.

14:42:26 MolokoDesk: ;;gpg info -key 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6

14:42:27 gribble: (gpg info [--key|--address] <nick>) -- Returns the registration details of registered user <nick>. If '--key' option is given, interpret <nick> as a GPG key ID.

14:42:36 mircea_popescu: lol

14:42:44 mircea_popescu: ;;gpg info --key 7E1DC6F7BDD75CD6

14:42:45 gribble: No such user registered.

14:42:52 mircea_popescu: but he already said used different key

14:42:53 MolokoDesk: oops

14:42:56 MolokoDesk: that's why

14:42:59 mircea_popescu: yup

14:43:12 MolokoDesk: still wondered what deedBot actually saw

14:43:20 mircea_popescu: yeah. okay.

14:43:34 MolokoDesk: it rejects for assbot level1+level2 trust <2

14:43:45 mircea_popescu: that's no good.

14:43:58 mircea_popescu: a) l2 = 1 should be enough ; b) l1 = 1 and l2 = 0 is stil valid.

14:44:09 MolokoDesk: oh. it only has to be one?

14:44:11 MolokoDesk: ok.

14:44:23 mircea_popescu: make it reject for !((l1 > 0)||(l2 > 0))

14:44:25 MolokoDesk: maybe it's doing that. let me look at the code briefly.

14:44:37 MolokoDesk: if that was your spec that's what it's doing.

14:44:48 MolokoDesk: lemme certify this. looking.

14:44:57 mircea_popescu: so as to identify : http://blockchain.info/tx/26591d8fc00356374e63320f1c6b5539947300378f84ad8063ef92740823fd95 << consider that. the tx is identified, whether it ends up in this block or that.

14:44:58 assbot: Bitcoin Transaction 26591d8fc00356374e63320f1c6b5539947300378f84ad8063ef92740823fd95

14:45:11 mircea_popescu: the hash in question you get from whatever agent you use to broadcast the tx

14:45:37 MolokoDesk: if($SIGSDONE[$DEED_KEYID]['trust']>0)

14:45:40 MolokoDesk: ok. it's 1

14:45:53 mircea_popescu: works.

14:45:59 MolokoDesk: that's early code. also I was thinking assbot voice.

14:46:36 MolokoDesk: considered using transactionID

14:46:44 kakobrekla: <mircea_popescu> make it reject for !((l1 > 0)||(l2 > 0)) < l1+12 > 0 is simpler

14:47:13 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you are right.

14:47:16 MolokoDesk: it's already summing aggregate trust.

14:47:17 mircea_popescu: pls sign something put it in ?

14:47:17 kakobrekla: also different though

14:47:30 kakobrekla: as one level can be negative

14:47:36 kakobrekla: and the fucks up the other

14:47:38 kakobrekla: then*

14:47:47 kakobrekla: so dunno

14:47:53 kakobrekla: i use what mp wrote iirc

14:47:54 MolokoDesk: oh. that's signfiicant.

14:48:03 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk notrly.

14:48:21 mircea_popescu: the case where assbot trusts someone the broader b-a does not is quite the failure mode anyway.

14:48:26 mircea_popescu: we'll be having bigger problems.

14:48:40 mircea_popescu: so this'd count as a canary.

14:48:50 punkman: mircea_popescu: I posted a deed earlier, http://www.postalrocket.com/DEEDS/

14:48:51 assbot: DEEDS

14:48:51 MolokoDesk: are there cases where someone who should have access to deeds has a negative rating relative to assbot and assbotdirects?

14:49:04 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk nope

14:49:55 mircea_popescu: punkman wait is this a concurrent implementation or what ?!

14:50:09 punkman: no that's deedbot's

14:50:25 mircea_popescu: o hey. spiffy

14:50:33 kakobrekla: whichever is goin to be it should prolly be consistent with assbot or what

14:50:34 dignork: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=wEfSrr2E

14:50:35 deedBot: KeyID: 8334BB7B5BDFA126 deed with 1 signatory.

14:50:35 deedBot: deed keyID: 8334BB7B5BDFA126 trust: 5 nick: dignork (valid and scheduled for next bundle)

14:50:44 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk the web interface looks splendid.

14:50:48 punkman: MolokoDesk: when does a deed have 2 signatories?

14:51:11 MolokoDesk: if a bunch of people have cryposigned it. I'm counting the signatures.

14:51:15 mircea_popescu: .dump

14:51:15 deedBot: time=1411829476 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411826420 elapsed=3056

14:51:16 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

14:51:24 MolokoDesk: I had considered validating all the signatures.

14:52:07 MolokoDesk: it requires peeling off the ascii armor and replacing gaps in the delimiters. it's kind of tedious.

14:52:12 kakobrekla: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=d2gP5rh8

14:52:13 deedBot: KeyID: 27AF75321F2489E8 deed with 1 signatory.

14:52:14 deedBot: deed keyID: 27AF75321F2489E8 trust: 18 nick: kakobrekla (valid and scheduled for next bundle)

14:52:21 kakobrekla: can you make it also work with dpaste

14:52:21 dignork: so if anybody has to deal with multiple subkeys, proper syntax is "gpg -u 8334BB7B5BDFA126! --clearsign file" , notice the key>!< notation, seems to be not so documented

14:52:23 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk maybe with a later upgrade. atm not useful or wanted.

14:52:50 mircea_popescu: dignork ppl on mpex ocasionally have this issue. the other approach is to mark a key as default.

14:53:06 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla im sure it takes any url ?

14:53:17 kakobrekla: a ok

14:53:22 punkman: it doesn't

14:53:30 mircea_popescu: why not ?

14:53:46 MolokoDesk: it's only pastebin right now. I can loosten that contraint.

14:53:54 mircea_popescu: any url works.

14:53:58 MolokoDesk: or I can spell loosen correctly.

14:54:04 mircea_popescu: this is only intended to be used from here, by voiced people.

14:54:11 mircea_popescu: so not really all that exposed to random spam

14:54:15 MolokoDesk: ok.

14:54:42 MolokoDesk: people will have to use raw= for pastebin then.

14:54:53 kakobrekla: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=d4u0BXQU

14:54:54 deedBot: KeyID: 27AF75321F2489E8 deed with 1 signatory.

14:54:57 deedBot: deed keyID: 27AF75321F2489E8 trust: 18 nick: kakobrekla (valid and scheduled for next bundle)

14:54:59 MolokoDesk: it's parsing out the token in non-raw pastebin references.

14:55:03 kakobrekla: so much for random spam!

14:55:13 MolokoDesk: .dump

14:55:13 deedBot: time=1411829714 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411826420 elapsed=3294

14:55:13 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

14:56:06 MolokoDesk: dpaste is doable. any URL is doable.

14:56:18 mircea_popescu: coolness.

14:56:20 MolokoDesk: I'll make it indiscriminate and see how that goes.

14:56:46 kakobrekla: a little discrimination never hurt anybody

14:56:52 MolokoDesk: there maybe ram limits to filesize. a 1 gig file can overflow the php address space.

14:56:55 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk : can all the data published on webpage be bundled say daily into a tar and linked somewhere for dld ?

14:57:02 MolokoDesk: oh wait, I'm not doing it that way.

14:57:10 MolokoDesk: file goes to gpg

14:57:25 MolokoDesk: oh yes I am. I have to hash the file to make the bitcoin address.

14:57:34 MolokoDesk: so it has to fit in memory.

14:57:34 mircea_popescu: don't put anything of unknown size into gpg.

14:57:52 MolokoDesk: heh. buffer overflow attack?

14:57:57 mircea_popescu: a hardcoded 64kb limit should be fine btw.

14:58:06 mircea_popescu: this is intended for human readable input, not dumping of indiscriminate data.

14:58:16 mircea_popescu: if people have mbs to do, let them do a cert and insert the cert.

14:59:04 mircea_popescu: actually, not just fine. it's a requirement post facto. MolokoDesk discard anything in the url past the 64kb.

14:59:33 MolokoDesk: truncate, or reject?

14:59:36 mircea_popescu: truncate.

14:59:54 MolokoDesk: head -c64000 file.ext

14:59:55 chetty: .deed http://pastebin.com/5hjTV4yg

14:59:55 assbot: Eulora may have a release when the goalposts stop moving! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNAT - Pastebin.com

14:59:56 deedBot: No signed deeds were found in: http://pastebin.com/5hjTV4yg

14:59:57 assbot: Eulora may have a release when the goalposts stop moving! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNAT - Pastebin.com

15:00:08 mircea_popescu: i have been derping for long enough about how reform in the modern state shoudl consist of a fixed number of characters for all laws, and if you want a new one must erase an old one.

15:00:18 MolokoDesk: there may be other ways to do that... wget, whatever.


15:00:23 mircea_popescu: time to put that idea to work. the largest last will&testament you can have is 10k words. figure it out.

15:00:28 deedBot: BTC SPENT: amount_withdrawn = 0.00011000 TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N.txt

15:00:44 MolokoDesk: .balance

15:00:45 deedBot: deedBot BTC available balance: 0.00118000 in wallet 1NTSD9jVvumurTotaW7Crqe5DfRxBrJzqu

15:00:46 deedBot: deedBot unconfirmed sent: -0.00011000

15:00:49 MolokoDesk: .dump

15:00:49 deedBot: time=1411830050 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411830029 elapsed=21

15:00:50 deedBot: TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N.txt = (address = 17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N) (mtime = 1411830022) (ctime = 1411830029)

15:00:50 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

15:00:50 deedBot: rename(,): No such file or directory deedBot.php LINE 1634 Sat 2014-Sep-27 14:59:57 UTC (3 errors)

15:00:57 mircea_popescu: chetty need the raw

15:01:12 mircea_popescu: chetty http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=5hjTV4yg << use that url

15:01:46 MolokoDesk: it should have gotten the raw from the unraw pastebin link. there's a special for that.

15:02:02 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk useful, good idea.

15:02:08 punkman: it didn't like the text before the sig

15:02:15 chetty: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=5hjTV4yg

15:02:38 MolokoDesk: there's no -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED DOCUMENT---- header on that.

15:02:43 mircea_popescu: punkman so you two been working together on this or what ?

15:02:44 MolokoDesk: it ignores pure signatures

15:02:47 dignork: !up deedBot

15:02:53 punkman: mircea_popescu: nope

15:02:55 mircea_popescu: chetty yeah seems you missed the header.

15:03:10 mircea_popescu: punkman oh the logs. nm me :)

15:03:53 punkman: but I'll write a verifier for the deeds

15:04:04 chetty: .deed http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=yYbT4Tiu

15:04:04 mircea_popescu: what's a verifier do ?

15:04:04 deedBot: KeyID: BD7C5558DD9EFA14 deed with 1 signatory.

15:04:06 deedBot: deed keyID: BD7C5558DD9EFA14 trust: 5 nick: chetty (valid and scheduled for next bundle)

15:04:23 punkman: mircea_popescu: it drinks from the faucet :P

15:04:28 chetty: I learn slow, but I learn

15:04:31 mircea_popescu: knock yourself out :)

15:04:43 MolokoDesk: it makes sure I'm really computing the hash address properly. If I verify that myself, and I'm making a mistake, I'll just be making the same mistake in the verifier.

15:04:46 punkman: also, to make sure this is verifiable

15:04:55 mircea_popescu: good idea pman

15:06:04 punkman: ;;tslb

15:06:12 gribble: Time since last block: 2 minutes and 11 seconds

15:07:21 punkman: ;;balance 17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N

15:07:21 gribble: 0.0001

15:07:43 MolokoDesk: .deed //http://pastebin.com/BrkxYBrh

15:07:56 MolokoDesk: !up deedBot

15:07:59 mircea_popescu: / ?

15:08:16 MolokoDesk: .deed //http://pastebin.com/QzPGJbj6 (ALF,RD)

15:08:30 MolokoDesk: interesting.

15:08:46 mircea_popescu: wut ?

15:08:48 kakobrekla: .deed { :; }; echo 'ble'

15:08:52 MolokoDesk: there can be issues if gribble dies in the middle of a transaction

15:09:21 MolokoDesk: the gribble dialog is the gnarliest part.

15:09:22 mircea_popescu: mark it as unchecked and redo later ?

15:09:32 MolokoDesk: I'll look to see what's in the queue

15:09:39 mircea_popescu: ;;tslb

15:09:44 gribble: Time since last block: 5 minutes and 43 seconds

15:10:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: prayer mill ? << shit boys, there you go revealing supersecret eulora later game content ;/

15:11:28 MolokoDesk: I'm retaining the microsecond timestamps of gribble requests and their fulfillment so... I can implement a timeout reset if gribble dies.

15:11:30 MolokoDesk: ohhh.

15:11:31 MolokoDesk: ok

15:12:02 MolokoDesk: gribble bans anyone for 5 minutes if they make more than 12 requests in a 60 second interval. that probably happened while deedBot wasn't voice.

15:12:26 mircea_popescu: can you practically limit work to that volume ?

15:12:29 MolokoDesk: there's no appeal against that. I'll have to pace requests by any of various methods.

15:12:42 mircea_popescu: i can appeal it but i'd rather not if it's not absolutely necessary.

15:12:45 MolokoDesk: an incoming URL queue is the most reasonable.

15:12:52 kakobrekla: this has turned into brain surgery

15:13:06 mircea_popescu: in general the 60 minutes of a block would currently take a maximum of 720 deeds at that rate. unless we're actually processing 500...

15:13:12 MolokoDesk: yeah, I wasn't going to suggest any mods to gribble even if nanotube would do them because everyone else's stuff would stop working.

15:13:20 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla some people like to work, unlike slovens :D

15:13:37 MolokoDesk: for example, the information about which KEYID or NICK you're asking about disappears if it's not found in WoT. Gribble just says not found there.

15:13:47 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk can always jus get an exception ; always a great idea to only ask for exceptions when you need them

15:13:52 MolokoDesk: so I already have to pace and sequence the request to gribble.

15:14:12 punkman: MolokoDesk: why wasn't 17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N published?

15:14:17 MolokoDesk: ok. if gribble can grant deedBot unlimited requests thats the solution.

15:14:32 MolokoDesk: it hasn't appeared on the main blockchain yet.

15:14:36 MolokoDesk: .dump

15:14:36 deedBot: time=1411830877 LAST_BUNDLE_TIME=1411830029 elapsed=848

15:14:37 deedBot: TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N.txt = (address = 17nXdzdWdrLP5nqMJxJGC7ANqWQkqL2G5N) (mtime = 1411830022) (ctime = 1411830029)

15:14:37 deedBot: DEEDBOT_CHAN=#bitcoin-assets ERROR_CHAN=MolokoDesk INTERVAL=3600

15:14:37 deedBot: rename(,): No such file or directory deedBot.php LINE 1634 Sat 2014-Sep-27 15:02:16 UTC (6 errors)

15:14:42 MolokoDesk: ew

15:14:44 MolokoDesk: haw.

15:14:44 punkman: says 2 confirms

15:14:47 MolokoDesk: unlink()

15:14:57 MolokoDesk: interesting.

15:15:11 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk ok. if gribble can grant deedBot unlimited requests thats the solution. << that's not the solution yet. it wil be the solution once we process a lot of volume. atm the soluition is to queue.

15:15:39 punkman: if there's a lot of volume, best to keep local copy of OTC database

15:15:47 MolokoDesk: queue is more robust against various other collision events. I intend to queue incomings.

15:15:56 MolokoDesk: nobody would run an exchange without queueing orders. you'd lose orders.

15:16:18 mircea_popescu: aite.

15:17:02 MolokoDesk: http://www.postalrocket.com/DEEDS_TEST/wotFreq_01.html messing about with the WoT RatingsSystem.db earlier, punkman.

15:18:40 punkman: I suspected "smooth" as the most common adjective in ratings

15:20:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 718 @ 0.00074943 = 0.5381 BTC [-]

15:20:19 MolokoDesk: deedBot is sniffing the top block once 60 seconds. if a freakishly fast block mining event happens back to back it could miss the inclusion in the block.

15:20:23 mircea_popescu: so if anyone knows anything about growing cactuses, get back to me. i got a tiny something, which i believe is armatocereus godingianus. he seems happy enough and is growing, but the shoots are all spindly. ie, the base like 6 strands each an inch thick, each shot this inch long, 1/8th of an inch wide things.

15:20:29 MolokoDesk: I may have to track back to detect block inclusion in that case.

15:20:30 mircea_popescu: is this how it grows ? is it upset with the light ?

15:20:47 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk these freakishly fast blocks happen a lot actually.

15:21:02 mircea_popescu: can it sniff the top 6 blocks ?

15:21:14 bounce: what about gloves?

15:21:15 MolokoDesk: etiolation due to low light. also cactus seedlings have cotyledons like most other dicots.

15:21:29 punkman: start sniff from last deed block

15:21:44 mircea_popescu: ^ punkman has it

15:21:46 MolokoDesk: block mining collisions, yeah.

15:22:04 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 150 @ 0.15508879 = 23.2633 BTC [+] {16}

15:23:05 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 22 @ 0.15877999 = 3.4932 BTC [+] {2}

15:24:38 MolokoDesk: sure. I was considering looking for block height increments of more than 1 and then scanning back. alternatively, scan backwards to the first block with a date before the incoming file creation date.

15:25:02 MolokoDesk: scanning back would allow the tracking interval to be longer than a minute or 5

15:25:13 MolokoDesk: .time Texas

15:26:52 MolokoDesk: ok. I need to tighten a few things up in deedBot. It's possible that's going to run into October.

15:27:46 MolokoDesk: just a heads up.

15:28:43 MolokoDesk: I think starting from last deed bot would load things down some, doable, but deeds may only be coming in every 6 hours.

15:28:43 mircea_popescu: well hurry up!

15:28:54 MolokoDesk: srsly

15:29:29 MolokoDesk: well, unless we can break it some more today... I can get on this. I've been up rather a while today.

15:30:07 MolokoDesk: any mid-course corrections other than so far?

15:31:08 mircea_popescu: the txid instead of block height ; the queing of gribble requests

15:31:11 mircea_popescu: that seems all realy.

15:31:15 MolokoDesk: !up deedBot

15:31:53 MolokoDesk: oh, are you going to register deedBot with WoT or should I do that or, leave it indeterminate. I can export the keys and give you a copy.

15:32:14 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 218 @ 0.00446292 = 0.9729 BTC [+] {10}

15:32:16 MolokoDesk: the risk now is that someone will nab the name.

15:32:36 mircea_popescu: is it nickserv reg'd ?

15:32:50 MolokoDesk: yes. oh sure. can't WoT without auth

15:32:55 MolokoDesk: ok. no rush.

15:32:57 mircea_popescu: so it can sit.

15:32:57 dignork: MolokoDesk: somewhat of a hack, but electrum has getaddressbalance function, which returns balance for any address (unlike bitcoind)

15:33:28 mircea_popescu: dignork it also happens to be the correct way to handle this. the "wallet" nonsense still boggles my mind.

15:33:58 MolokoDesk: electrum is the gold standard for this sort of thing (pun intended) but that's a serious dev/admin/maintenance thing on this end. If I had electrum RPC already at the start of this I may have done it that way. it's still on the desirable things to do list.

15:34:18 MolokoDesk: the less reliance on 3rd party APIs the better in most cases.

15:34:48 MolokoDesk: I have fallback capability in the bot but it's not active. I can track with two different website APIs. there's only one wallet, but more can be added.

15:34:51 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk nah i don't think it's all that desirable. ideally no dependencies etc.

15:35:15 MolokoDesk: it makes it hard to move if it has to co-reside with electrum.

15:35:17 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 108 @ 0.00501896 = 0.542 BTC [+] {9}

15:36:09 MolokoDesk: also I'd be setting up binary buffers and cryptosigning them and all that. it's a chore.

15:36:42 *: MolokoDesk sounding like a bitcoin dev wuss.

15:37:00 MolokoDesk: ok. I'm out for the day.

15:37:37 dignork: MolokoDesk: you need a local copy of electrum wallet without QT mess, it's a plain python

15:38:09 dignork: alternatively, just hack out the part talking to electrum servers, few pages of python code

15:38:17 mircea_popescu: http://www.postalrocket.com/DEEDS/ << aww not updated.

15:38:17 assbot: DEEDS

15:38:20 mircea_popescu: such a teasing!

15:38:26 MolokoDesk: moving this to python was an intention eventually, that make electrum seem more sensible.

15:38:53 MolokoDesk: yeah, there's a pending item stuck in the queue because it missed (probably) it's block.

15:39:20 mircea_popescu: "Каждая вундервафля выглядит так, что Юнг и Фрейд, обнявшись, заплакали бы от радости." lol not bad

15:39:34 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk aite see you tomorrow

15:41:18 dignork: mircea_popescu: on a concept level lurkmore is a copy of encyclopedia dramatica, but they do much better job imho

15:41:56 mircea_popescu: ahahaah epic. "every fifth opponent was a cross between a tank with a watchtower and every previous boss"

15:41:59 mircea_popescu: now i gotta play this thing

15:45:28 mircea_popescu: "If the country can continue operating as smoothly as it does for another year, I'll be surprised." << you can tell casey research his bet is on.

15:45:39 mircea_popescu: fucktards these people.

15:46:13 mircea_popescu: why am i even reading this crap, jpg "signatures" and no comment section for crying out loud.

15:48:13 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> what is rms holding in the photo? << toe jam?

15:51:04 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell MolokoDesk anyway, the ideal here is to have everything in order to i can put the various sept reports on it.

15:51:05 gribble: The operation succeeded.

15:52:40 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: as far as anyone can tell - equal to 'c' <<< the idea being that "the speed of light" is not "of light" in any sense other than the champagne is champagne

15:53:21 mircea_popescu: "that's where the limit on interaction debit first became apparent"

15:53:30 mircea_popescu: turns out the universe itself works on a queue

15:59:41 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.09651464 BTC to 15`116 shares, 7254 satoshi per share


16:00:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: lol that turd reads like it was a 'mad libs' product << three steps to take to avoid making any sort of meaningful change : a) stick to obama & the libertard's mickey mouse version of "change" ; b) pretend like disaster is unlikely and so the possibility can be safely ignored while it's not happened yet ; pretend it's "overwhelming" as so best ignored as it happens and shortly thereafter ; c) make sure y

16:00:35 mircea_popescu: ou don't read trilema or any other venue where people who know more than you are likely to call you and your friends idiots.

16:00:36 deedBot: BTC SPENT: amount_withdrawn = 0.00011000 TRACKING: BUNDLE_PENDING-16kWvtsQukxKp8nKY8hSUgca9nm96cFqUC.txt

16:00:42 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 2.94396928 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 256 satoshi per share

16:00:48 mircea_popescu: o hay deedsy.

16:02:10 mircea_popescu: !up deedBot

16:03:53 asciilifeform: !s lurkmore

16:03:54 assbot: 7 results for 'lurkmore' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=lurkmore

16:04:12 asciilifeform: ^ that thing of beauty - was discussed here in the past...

16:04:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am notorious for taking more than one pass through the material to grok it, more than one set of lips on the tool to spill it etc.

16:05:00 mircea_popescu: i'm a multifarian.

16:05:05 asciilifeform: lol

16:05:39 mircea_popescu: anyway, ru version of ed reads like mostly adult male, as opposed to mostly preteen female.

16:06:39 asciilifeform: good eyes - accurate.

16:08:52 asciilifeform: before even i forget - kakobrekla, mircea_popescu - where's my lenat turd mirror ?

16:09:17 mircea_popescu: uh

16:09:25 mircea_popescu: i have that queasy feeling i musta missed something

16:10:03 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-09-2014#845498

16:10:04 assbot: Logged on 26-09-2014 00:53:22; mircea_popescu: email ill put on trilema

16:10:13 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-09-2014#845583

16:10:13 assbot: Logged on 26-09-2014 01:50:54; asciilifeform:

16:10:20 mircea_popescu: oh! damned.

16:10:22 mircea_popescu: brb.

16:10:48 mircea_popescu: i was like "let others hit it first ill go later to not herdkil the server"

16:10:51 mircea_popescu: then promptly forgot.

16:11:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3597 @ 0.00074835 = 2.6918 BTC [-]

16:12:25 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the how & why of the whole thing: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-09-2014#845694

16:12:26 assbot: Logged on 26-09-2014 03:11:57; asciilifeform: there are two versions of the lenat story

16:12:42 mircea_popescu: no i know that part

16:12:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1253 @ 0.00074785 = 0.9371 BTC [-]

16:12:55 asciilifeform: (given that i don't have a proper rant written yet to go with it, above will have to do for now)

16:23:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21957 @ 0.0007478 = 16.4194 BTC [-] {2}

16:24:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3226 @ 0.00074732 = 2.4109 BTC [-]

16:31:05 ben_vulpes: <MolokoDesk> i may use SQLite instead of mySQL eventuall. << try postgres if ye've yet to. nicely done db.

16:33:14 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 300 @ 0.01494324 = 4.483 BTC [-]

16:33:55 thestringpuller: ;;ls

16:33:56 gribble: What do you think I am, a shell?

16:34:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8000 @ 0.00074725 = 5.978 BTC [-]

16:34:37 thestringpuller: i cant get sql lite data into postgresql

16:35:39 ben_vulpes: thats why start with pg

16:39:02 ben_vulpes: !up daybyter

16:39:09 daybyter: Thanks!

16:39:29 daybyter: I use HyperSQL...

16:49:47 penguirker: New blog post: http://contravex.com/2014/09/27/on-the-stupidity-of-biometric-security-for-smartphones-and-smartwatches/

16:49:48 penguirker: New blog post: http://trilema.com/2014/three-steps-to-take-three-steps-and-other-tales-from-the-shitswamp/

17:01:01 kakobrekla: asciilifeform try http://files.bitcoin-assets.com

17:01:02 assbot: Index of /

17:01:20 mircea_popescu: "the Russians are from three to five years ahead of the US in the field of atomic aircraft engines and they will move even further ahead unless the US pressed forward with its own program"

17:01:26 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: neat. but i was hoping for individual turdlets that i could link to.

17:01:29 mircea_popescu: from aviation weekly, 1958

17:02:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: laugh, but the recently released 'glomar explorer' howard hughes ru. submarine plunder reports...

17:02:26 asciilifeform: stated that u.s. engineers pissed pants at some of the integrated circuitry found therein

17:02:41 asciilifeform: most of the 'why' pissed - censored

17:02:49 asciilifeform: but the fact thereof - not.

17:07:19 kakobrekla: asciilifeform try now

17:07:35 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: neat. thx

17:07:44 kakobrekla: np

17:08:02 kakobrekla: i plan to put some stuff there myself, such as log dump etc

17:08:07 kakobrekla: would you like to have your own folder

17:08:12 asciilifeform: sure.

17:10:02 kakobrekla: done

17:10:26 mircea_popescu: ;;isitdown https://blockchain.info

17:10:26 assbot: Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info

17:10:26 gribble: https://blockchain.info is up

17:15:58 mircea_popescu: decimation: what I find inexplicable is that you find folks in the us who absolutely hate everything about usg policies, in terms of how it mismanages wealth, fails to jail criminals, etc, and yet are willing to serve the military side <<< similarly, the wild animals that hate everything about the government will still traipse around on "government property"

17:16:20 mircea_popescu: in spite of there being numerous posters in full view saying "by traipsing around here you agree to blablabla"

17:16:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the u.s. army installation i once worked in had the biggest, fattest herds of deer i've ever seen in person...

17:17:00 mircea_popescu: military service of some sort or another is a required stage in male maturation.

17:17:41 mircea_popescu: who claims to own it... whatever, im sure the fish acting as host for whatever parasite's obligate fish phase are "owned" by someone, at least according to them.

17:17:56 mircea_popescu: ownership is a convention, meaningless outside the convenants.

17:19:09 mircea_popescu: decimation: usg is the unintentional beneficiary of a great deal of "I want to make a difference" altruism << so no, it's not altruism. unrelated to that, there's a lot of "usg is the only obvious recipient for a bunch of faking of the <i want to not have sex but for everyone in school to think i do> sort."

17:20:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is also, in a fairly large geographic zone, the only readily-accessible sponsor of many activities a thinking man (or 'man of action') would like to take up.

17:20:40 mircea_popescu: quite my point.

17:21:09 mircea_popescu: you gotta kill some people. avenue A is like so, avenue B is like so... hmm... well ok, let's go with B

17:21:37 asciilifeform: there are other sponsors - but most of them require an 'in.' (ethnic, familial, whatever kind of 'in'). only one sponsor has press-gangs on the streets, taking all-comers.

17:21:57 mircea_popescu: because it's obviously not military SERVICE. it's MILITARY service. killing people.

17:22:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually two. the mob is still there.

17:22:16 asciilifeform: this applies not only to the killing arts, but even something like - chemistry.

17:22:21 chetty: last I heard military in ussa wasnt aking all comers

17:22:46 mircea_popescu: chetty was this before or after they started paying terrorists for the safe return of deserters ?

17:23:18 chetty: well when did that start? or do you mean when it got to be public and all

17:23:24 asciilifeform: chetty: i was speaking more generally of employment with usg rather than proper soldiering as such

17:24:00 chetty: ah yes, different matter asciilifeform

17:24:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: then squadron with stone megacock can feel victorious, vindicated. << methinks this view is a little too convenient.

17:24:12 mircea_popescu: seriously, lisp tripped on banana peel ?

17:24:19 mircea_popescu: nobody could have foreseen ?

17:24:31 asciilifeform: though, i've been told that even actual enlistment is now open to folks of fairly advanced age and shoddy physical condition, with the proviso that you will 'fly a desk'

17:25:07 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it was easy to foresee. but what alternative, when you gotta have the wealthy prince?

17:25:14 asciilifeform: even if wealthy prince has an advanced crack habit

17:25:20 mircea_popescu: no.

17:25:22 asciilifeform: it's him - or starve

17:25:29 mircea_popescu: these aren't the same strength.

17:25:46 asciilifeform: ?

17:25:48 mircea_popescu: rms's tortured existence is proof as to their uneven strength : neglecting the "gotta" works better than baking it in.

17:26:18 mircea_popescu: in general, not doing something stupid "you got to do" is better on the long term than doing it.

17:26:27 mircea_popescu: and if your project is long term... well there you go.

17:27:30 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: notice that rms will not speak of lisp to this day. the demise of lmi cut him off from the genuine machines (there was no possibility of baking one by his lonesome, or with his band of ragged dervishes, any more than they could launch a mars mission)

17:27:44 asciilifeform: all he had left was his embarrassing 'emacs lisp' erzats.

17:27:55 mircea_popescu: rigt

17:28:20 mircea_popescu: but unlike the other fucktards involved, he didn't go away into the night, and his efforts are at the root of why we even pose a problem to the usg today in the first place.

17:29:37 asciilifeform: as far as i can tell, rms was defeated in his original life. and ended up performing almost the equivalent of a seppuku - had to retool and rescue some very small thing that could be salvaged, and turned it into another life.

17:29:48 mircea_popescu: not in any sense.

17:30:23 mircea_popescu: he just woke up to the concept of "never do something stupid, no matter how much you "gotta" "

17:30:32 mircea_popescu: this is a major cause of the foss taking so very long to be killed.

17:31:01 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: if you had a truly clean break with the age of turdware - there would be a market for about six machines. << this is diletante business analysis. you really only need one, provided it works. look into the early history of ford cars.

17:31:09 mircea_popescu: ford ignored a patent.

17:31:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26900 @ 0.00074718 = 20.0991 BTC [-] {3}

17:33:18 mircea_popescu: decimation: it is because of the dynamic range allowed in a single blob <<< this is nonsense. the "range" is not intrinsic to the blob. the blob will only hold as much as it physicall can. what its concents mean to you, is entirely up to you

17:33:30 mircea_popescu: to tell me that range is included in the item is nonsense of the first degree.

17:33:35 asciilifeform: ford was able to capitalize, somehow, because ultimately any idiot can appreciate a car.

17:33:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do something useful. hence "if it works".

17:34:18 mircea_popescu: forget "hearts and minds", that's the telltale preoccupation of a dying empire. concern yourself with the ground under their very feet and let them figure it out.

17:34:43 mircea_popescu: they'll go on to reddit to discuss how X Y and Z are betting websites for as long as they can still find coins in mom's cushions to pay for the pizza.

17:36:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ahahaha, yeah, that'll buy me a silicon fab and decade of paid free time, sure.

17:37:06 mircea_popescu: right, because that's what ford did o.o

17:37:43 asciilifeform: picture if ford wanted moon lander instead

17:38:07 mircea_popescu: you figure it's specifically the item in question ?

17:38:25 mircea_popescu: the only relevant change there is that the car is history and the moon lander is not.

17:38:29 asciilifeform: the type of item.

17:38:39 mircea_popescu: obviously i can appreciate your position : for all the banality of sex, it's still a big deal to the virgin.

17:38:46 asciilifeform: mass appeal - marketable. requires 500-year time horizon - less so.

17:38:53 mircea_popescu: but let's stick to history. car or parabolic mirror to put ships on fire

17:39:16 mircea_popescu: or washing your hands before delivering a woman

17:39:17 mircea_popescu: etc.

17:42:17 asciilifeform: sure

17:43:45 mircea_popescu: not random examples. car : used individually, useful if used by a lot ; parabolic mirrors : used globally, useful if used at all. washing hands : used individually, useful if used at all.

17:43:46 mircea_popescu: etc

17:45:45 asciilifeform: also matters what kind of process is necessary to bring the item.

17:46:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00075064 = 8.5573 BTC [+] {2}

17:47:05 mircea_popescu: no, because it is always going to be the same : industry.

17:47:14 mircea_popescu: homo artifex.

17:47:35 asciilifeform: except the item in question cannot be produced by industry. it's a craftsmanship item.

17:47:40 asciilifeform: like samurai sword.

17:47:46 asciilifeform: at least, ser. no #1.

17:47:57 chetty: You think farnsworth had a clue what TV would become? or cared?

17:48:27 asciilifeform: chetty: farnsworth didn't need a decade of free time. raster scan, fortunately, was a fairly simple item.

17:49:24 asciilifeform: (despite this, he became the poster child of 'inventor starves, sponsor wins')

17:49:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform industry as thje human activity.

17:49:35 asciilifeform: ok

17:49:47 mircea_popescu: also, focus on the simple items.

17:49:53 mircea_popescu: forget the meta game

17:50:01 chetty: was it? from his point of view, at the time? I have trouble trying to imagine some of the early stabs at tech

17:50:06 mircea_popescu: problem of mod\ernity is everyone trying to meta the shit out of their lif

17:53:45 *: asciilifeform (not directly related) answered door and tool delivery of a nice japanese test dial, http://imgur.com/cvaJnWo << with hidden pin-up.

17:53:45 assbot: wtf - Imgur

17:54:45 punkman: asciilifeform: what's the difference of the non-test variety?

17:57:11 asciilifeform: punkman: http://www.toolstop.co.uk/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/51831_PDG01I.jpg << test gauge. needle moves vertically.

17:57:27 asciilifeform: *dial gauge

17:57:28 asciilifeform: damnit

17:57:32 asciilifeform: dial.

17:58:05 asciilifeform: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f45/34689d1306308192-dial-test-indicator-repair-procedure-1.jpg << dial test gauge. needle moves horizontally.

17:58:10 asciilifeform: or rather, in an arc.

17:58:18 asciilifeform: and, normally, considerably more sensitive

17:58:33 asciilifeform: (it is virtually impossible to touch with finger and make less than full circle on readout)

18:15:32 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i must disagree exactly '180 degrees' about rms. he in fact did do a 'gotta' species of forced mistake. specifically, chose to accept eternal unix-clone retardation as gospel, because no alternative (in his mind, at the time)

18:16:31 asciilifeform: forced, because it (or something entirely like it) is the only way to build a software ecosystem on scrapyard hardware.

18:17:10 asciilifeform: but there is no phase space transition from cuban scrapyard cars to mazerati.

18:18:02 asciilifeform: incidentally!

18:18:12 asciilifeform: this mirrors the (almost-contemporary!) soviet mistake

18:18:27 asciilifeform: of choosing to abandon all own research & clone u.s. hardware (to run u.s. warez eternally)

18:23:35 chetty: http://www.androidauthority.com/consumer-reports-bend-test-531016/

18:23:36 assbot: One (M8) comes last, Note 3 first in Consumer Reports bend test

18:24:16 chetty: speaking of scrapyards of hardware ...

18:39:43 asciilifeform: chetty: smear job, just like 'antennaegate'

18:59:40 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 39 @ 0.01494324 = 0.5828 BTC [-] {3}

19:20:37 asciilifeform: http://extropians.weidai.com/extropians.4Q99/3352.html << guess: the bugger went there, destroyed it.

19:20:37 assbot: extropians: EURISKO article obtained

19:22:08 ben_vulpes: chetty: looks like an actual bend test, with fixtures and all

19:24:14 asciilifeform: how many popular, costly portable objects would pass this test?

19:24:20 asciilifeform: e.g. 'glock' pistol?

19:24:52 asciilifeform: 'doctor, it hurts when i do that.' - 'don't do that.'

19:32:28 ben_vulpes: it's pathetic the things can't even open a beer.

19:32:32 ben_vulpes: that* the things

19:33:26 asciilifeform: nails, microscopes

19:35:33 kakobrekla: you might not hammer a nail with your microscope but i do it with my phone.

19:35:38 ben_vulpes: hm, probably want to look at bending moments and beam constraints too.

19:38:29 asciilifeform: http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/e3/d9/75/e3d9758fe7aedd433860caaf1a834ed1.jpg << kakobrekla's hammer phone ?

19:39:52 kakobrekla: http://magboss.pl/pubs/uploads/74h01900-00m-obudowa-tylna-htc-desire-s-saga-s510e-(oryginalna),516ec2ca94fa3.png

19:39:58 kakobrekla: i also got the insides, but thats the point.

19:41:17 kakobrekla: (first day i had it, it flew about 3m vertically on a concrete floor)

19:54:46 asciilifeform: 'certain aspects of the NVIDIA graphics processor chip will only be available to... ...firmware images that have been signed by NVIDIA.'

19:54:51 asciilifeform: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTc5ODA

19:54:52 assbot: [Phoronix] NVIDIA Alerts Nouveau: They're Starting To Sign/Validate GPU Firmware Images

20:19:06 kakobrekla: trading stream from exchanges will be down for a short while.

20:32:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform perhaps.

20:38:31 mircea_popescu: <pete_dushenski> asciilifeform: is this buono or male? <<< suppose your roommate goes "certain aspects of the appartment are only available with my permission".

20:38:37 mircea_popescu: are you still room ~mates~ ?

20:39:43 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: hm quite. i guess i misunderstood what "signed by nvidia" meant.

20:40:00 pete_dushenski: it's not "verified excellent" as much as "for british eyes only"

20:40:46 mircea_popescu: it means exactly what signatures ever meant : nvidia wants to be sovereign on its own [inasmuch as it produces them] chips

20:40:56 mircea_popescu: you probably want to be sovereign on your own [inasmuch as you bought them] chips

20:41:04 mircea_popescu: you both can't be sovereign, so you got yourselves a problem now.

20:44:05 mircea_popescu: decimation: apparently sabu of anonymous was living in a usg welfare apartment << the great "we infiltrated them for once" success story ? myeahg.

20:44:05 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: the turdware spreadeth across the land

20:44:09 mircea_popescu: !up JimDowJo2es

20:44:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: a professional scammer not scamming usg also, would be like a pro mechanic who won't fix own car << these words.

20:44:49 pete_dushenski: to evenly distributed like rising floodwaters

20:45:16 pete_dushenski: until someone makes an ark!

20:45:25 pete_dushenski: i nominate mp for noah.

20:46:02 mircea_popescu: decimation: I don't get the jews. why do they care about jews? They are just a small subset of europeans among the unwashed masses of europeans <<< you should learn yidish to see the things some jews think about some other jews.

20:46:32 *: pete_dushenski wonders why his mind so readily leans towards old testament references…

20:46:36 mircea_popescu: it's quite amusing, and will put the entire "secret cabal" thing into such perspective...

20:46:46 mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski sign of getting old perhaps ?

20:46:48 mircea_popescu: !up unbalanced

20:47:20 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: lol bring on the wisdom of the ages!

20:48:06 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: yiddish is full of adjectives that describe people, far more than of those that describe things

20:48:18 pete_dushenski: why? because there weren't many things

20:48:21 mircea_popescu: lol

20:48:37 pete_dushenski: it was a rather critical tongue

20:49:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: we could start with his idea of 'young and old men ought to live in separate countries.' << they do, mostly.

20:49:16 mircea_popescu: women being the border.

20:49:49 bounce: so, a people of scolds, then

20:50:26 pete_dushenski: hm. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com is bringing up "flush dns" error

20:57:44 mircea_popescu: bounce: but the takeaway ought to be that you (ie, those in power) are rigging the system then blaming the victims for having let the system end up being rigged against them. <<< this is exactly right. how else would anything work ?

20:59:15 mircea_popescu: dude reading this moriarty fellow interact with xmj is like watching a drunk clown trying to ride a cow with k-j, except the clown is really a cow in clown costume and the cow really a clown in cow costume and again adn again.

21:00:48 bounce: the card racket's profits do mean it's not going to be replaced. also the convenient fobbing off of risks to everyone else. (chargebacks to the merchants, privacy problems to the "consumer")

21:00:55 mircea_popescu: but hey, props for trolling bounce into a frenzy, i never saw him talk this much b4

21:01:16 mircea_popescu: bounce well, they won't go anywhere for as long as the system that spawned them lasts.

21:01:38 mircea_popescu: this is for sure. they're a part of it, like the hair styles of the late empire are part of the late empire.

21:01:52 mircea_popescu: but that doesn't make them anything other than styles.

21:05:54 mircea_popescu: anyway.

21:06:08 mircea_popescu: ;;rate xmj -1 Derp just won't shut up.

21:06:10 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of -1 for user xmj has been recorded.

21:08:09 xmj: ohh, lovely

21:08:31 xmj: some fucktard I ignore and haven't dealt with gave me a -1 rating

21:10:30 bounce: hmno, I don't think rigging the system is a good long-term strategy. it shouldn't be necessary, and if you think it is, you're venturing into empire territory.

21:11:14 mircea_popescu: rigging the system is pretty much the only strategy. give an example of something else at work.

21:11:14 xmj: bounce: which lovely person rated me negatively? :)

21:11:32 mircea_popescu: airlift is achieved through "rigging the system" of dynamic equilibrium

21:11:44 mircea_popescu: the carnot cycle is rigging the system of thermodynamics

21:12:23 bounce: uhm. I think you misread the context of the comment then.

21:12:41 mircea_popescu: possibly. what'd i miss ?

21:14:46 bounce: at the end of the complaint would be something much akin to your "bring back pecunia non olet" argument

21:15:06 mircea_popescu: but that can't work in the current system.

21:15:27 mircea_popescu: and if the system is uprooted, you really think something like its coiffure fashions a la mastercard would somehow survive ? how.

21:16:14 bounce: oh I don't mind them going the way of the dodo. the thing was rather moriarty was rationalising their existence as "best possible (evar)", which I disagreed with

21:17:00 mircea_popescu: well sure. lots that guy stil needs to read.

21:19:42 asciilifeform: ;;rate xmj -1 habitually pulls down #bitcoin-assets SNR.

21:19:44 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of -1 for user xmj has been recorded.

21:20:13 mircea_popescu: !down xmj

21:20:20 mircea_popescu: hallelujah.

21:20:54 pete_dushenski: http://www.sbjf.org/sbjco/schmaltz/yiddish_phrases.htm

21:20:55 assbot: Yiddish Phrases

21:23:50 ben_vulpes: ;;gettrust assbot ben_vulpes

21:23:51 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask ben_vulpes!~user@unaffiliated/benkay. Trust relationship from user assbot to user ben_vulpes: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 12 via 12 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=ben_vulpes | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=ben_vulpes | Rated since: Sun Mar 10 13:57:45 2013

21:26:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/lenat-leaks/ if you still want a backup

21:26:33 assbot: Index of /wp-content/uploads/2014/09/lenat-leaks

21:27:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: neato. now one of these days i actually write the turdifesto to go with these.

21:28:25 asciilifeform: as for herr lenat himself - looks like he's finally settled into island fortress, or the like: http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~ley/pers/hd/l/Lenat:Douglas_B=

21:28:25 assbot: dblp: Douglas B. Lenat

21:28:43 pete_dushenski: looks like asciilifeform

21:28:48 pete_dushenski: oops

21:28:52 asciilifeform: though this '08 piece is somewhat interesting - http://www.aaai.org/ojs/index.php/aimagazine/article/view/2106

21:28:53 assbot: The Voice of the Turtle: Whatever Happened to AI? | Lenat | AI Magazine

21:29:10 pete_dushenski: looks like asciilifeform's вредителями has a yiddish equivalent: nudnik

21:29:30 pete_dushenski: for those who prefer latin characters

21:29:37 asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: nah, that's just 'annoying bugger'

21:29:45 mircea_popescu: nudnik is pest not wrecker

21:29:46 asciilifeform: (russian loan word)

21:30:00 asciilifeform: who wants yiddish, here: http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/music/vilna_partisans_zog_nit_keyn_mol.asp

21:30:01 assbot: Heartstrings. Music of the Holocaust

21:30:06 mircea_popescu: o nm, wrong russian :)

21:30:47 mircea_popescu: вредительство, вредителями, what the hell's the difference.

21:30:47 pete_dushenski: perhaps shtunk

21:31:06 asciilifeform: ^ 'wreckery', 'by way of the wreckers'

21:31:10 asciilifeform: ^ declansions

21:31:14 asciilifeform: *declensions

21:31:16 mircea_popescu: :D

21:31:54 mircea_popescu: point remains. pest (annoyance) != pest (plague bearer)

21:31:58 asciilifeform: 'wrecker' isn't even an exact translation. originally, 'pest', really, as in agricultural - or the rats and mice in kitchen

21:32:04 mircea_popescu: right]

21:32:18 mircea_popescu: the small thing that brings doom

21:32:20 asciilifeform: english somehow wrapped many words into single box, in many cases. orwell even laments this in one essay

21:32:31 asciilifeform: 'bug' for all insects, 'bird' in general usage for all birds

21:32:47 asciilifeform: this was less of a thing in 19th c. and prior educated english text, and he noticed the changeover

21:32:53 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you gonna pretend like the peasants are people, you're stuck pretending language as they speak it is language, and that fifty words should be enough for everyone

21:32:56 mircea_popescu: and other things

21:33:01 asciilifeform: hence then 'pest' for both flea and plague rat.

21:33:06 asciilifeform: ^

21:33:11 asciilifeform: this, yes.

21:46:01 pete_dushenski: https://twitter.com/pete_dushenski/status/515980358928846848

21:46:02 assbot: ./jordanr1000 helped set up a fake computer to entice hackers. This is who showed up: http://t.co/RZLaXg52T9 http://t.co/dxkZd6ikMU

21:46:02 bounce: bit of a difference between "rigging something up" (building something, say making good use of known principles such as laws of nature) and "rigging the system" (which recurses, say, playing the SEC)

21:47:13 pete_dushenski: https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/515963941592518656 << for bathhouse julia.

21:47:15 assbot: The namedropper tries to have prominent friends; the righteous will have prominent enemies.

21:49:41 pete_dushenski: https://www.facebook.com/13012333374/photos/a.10150109720973375.279515.13012333374/10152488919783375/?type=1 << taleb on information theory's centrality.

21:50:55 pete_dushenski: the different between information theory and epistemology? some mathematical rigour here and there.

21:53:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18076 @ 0.00075112 = 13.5772 BTC [+] {3}

21:53:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2587 @ 0.00056039 = 1.4497 BTC [-] {21}

21:54:31 bounce: that doesn't feel quite right

21:54:49 jurov: <pete_dushenski> http://www.sbjf.org/sbjco/schmaltz/yiddish_phrases.htm << is this troll or yiddish is really so close to german?

21:54:50 assbot: Yiddish Phrases

21:55:09 pete_dushenski: jurov: no trolmo

21:55:20 pete_dushenski: yiddish is a cross between hebrew and german

21:55:50 pete_dushenski: sounds like hebrew but with german alphabet

21:56:13 jurov: GAY SHLAFEN lmao

22:10:39 bounce: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/09/27/man_too_busy_looking_at_ipad_sparks_security_alert/

22:10:39 assbot: iPAD-FONDLING fanboi sparks SECURITY ALERT at Sydney airport The Register

22:11:22 bounce: guy wasn't looking where he walked and so walked right by the security checkpoints. obvious answer? evacuate the whole airport.

22:24:35 mircea_popescu: jurov no it's reallyclose to german

22:25:04 mircea_popescu: bounce they were just looking for an excuse to derp on their own ipad

22:33:38 mats_cd03: i find myself wishing there was an assbot in every chan i idle in

22:34:17 mircea_popescu: mats_cd03 ikr?

22:34:25 mircea_popescu: same thing here.

22:34:30 guruvan: lol mats_cd03 assbot is one of my favorite bots

22:34:49 mats_cd03: i have felt the compulsion to reproduce its features on occasion

22:37:06 mats_cd03: http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-navajo-nation-settlement-20140924-story.html lol

22:37:07 assbot: U.S. settlement with Navajo Nation is largest ever for a tribe - LA Times

22:37:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12650 @ 0.00074977 = 9.4846 BTC [-]

22:44:39 guruvan: more settlements like that likely on the way too

23:01:44 thestringpuller: where is my 40 acres and a god damned mule

23:01:57 mats_cd03: free 0day: msctf!CTsfTextStoreManager.

23:08:18 mats_cd03: not mine, but i'm told its unreliable.

23:09:32 mats_cd03: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmk4a76CXTw

23:30:22 kakobrekla: !mpif

23:30:22 assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021861 B (Total: 478.05 B). Delta: -2.17 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.00020614 BTC [-]

23:30:23 *: danielpbarron slaps assbot around a bit with a large netsplit

23:48:26 kakobrekla: jesus.

23:49:59 kakobrekla: changed the engine only to figure out brake was on.

23:56:41 penguirker: New blog post: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2014/09/27/where-are-those-baseball-bitbets-now-oh-some-are-still-open/