Transcript for 28-02-2017, 154 lines:
07:46:20 punkman: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000257.html that's some good crackpottery
07:47:04 punkman: "Any Cask that gets Rolled, then correctly Floated, but fails to deliver a Leaf's payload into a Block, at or prior to the specified Promise Height of said Cask - is a Husk."
15:58:40 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-02-2017#1467415 << there are serious mistakes and incompletions in the original piece, and so i recommend anyone who bothers to read it, to also read today's thread ( starting from http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619751 ) -- or read neither
15:58:40 assbot: Logged on 28-02-2017 07:47:04; punkman: "Any Cask that gets Rolled, then correctly Floated, but fails to deliver a Leaf's payload into a Block, at or prior to the specified Promise Height of said Cask - is a Husk."
15:58:55 asciilifeform: ( because i will certainly not bother to repeat the discussion verbatim here. )
17:24:01 asciilifeform: punkman: lol! neato
17:24:49 punkman: asciilifeform: why's the altcoin called trb-i btw?
17:25:37 asciilifeform: punkman: it isn't an actual altcoin. just a long-running thread with gedankenexperiments re what'd go in a rationally-designed alt that wants to be an actual improvement over the classical btc
17:26:07 asciilifeform: don't expect to see an actual alt out of it.
17:26:45 asciilifeform: we've had this thread, on and off, since 2013 (and that's just when i tuned in. probably -- even before.)
17:27:15 asciilifeform: the 'i' stood, iirc, for 'ideal'.
17:27:46 punkman: gedankencoin
17:27:50 asciilifeform: aha
21:11:01 Framedragger: in today's news, The Cloud is down today. also, the status page for the Cloud did not update for a while because The Cloud was down. (https://twitter.com/awscloud/status/836656664635846656)
21:13:31 Framedragger: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-02-2017#1467428 << this is a nice find. goes back to september 2016 (http://n-gate.com/hackernews/2016/09/) (not clear from homepage)
21:28:37 Framedragger: "Nikon refrigerates a camera to reduce noise in photographs. Hackernews suggest several improvements, all of which have already been implemented and are described in the article. Nobody suggests refrigerating Hackernews users, despite the almost guaranteed reduction of noise that would result. " (i'm sorry i'm lol'ing hard)
21:28:58 asciilifeform: Framedragger: these were pretty great
21:32:03 *: funkenstein_ <3 crackpots
21:32:42 funkenstein_: official gedankencoin of the derplusional tardpublic, I like it :)
21:33:06 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: it isn't an official-anything, just some theoretical notes.
21:33:27 funkenstein_: seems the worthwhile part here could be wrapped up as a business for how miners aka pool operators (on any coin) could organize their transaction-soliciting business
21:33:55 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: if i were building an alt, i'd kill poolability.
21:34:00 asciilifeform: because fuck pools.
21:34:14 asciilifeform: (whole-block hashing will do the deed)
21:34:48 funkenstein_: well that's a separate issue from the whole cask-of-the-amonti-miner
21:34:56 asciilifeform: quite separate yea
21:36:25 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: idea there was , whether it is theoretically possible to have a market in places-in-block, and in such a way that these are resellable, like concert tickets ( and so producing a reasonably frictionless market in node service )
21:37:24 funkenstein_: nothing is stopping you from doing so
21:38:00 funkenstein_: how the miner chooses to fill the block is up to her
21:38:16 punkman: asciilifeform: (whole-block hashing will do the deed) << how's that?
21:38:52 asciilifeform: punkman: non-outsourceable puzzle -- whoever finds the magic nonce, owns the block, it cannot be entrusted to a subordinate
21:39:01 asciilifeform: this is one of the easiest mistakes of the original bitcoin, to correct.
21:39:22 funkenstein_: the easier historical way was to require a signature made by the coinbase receiver in the header
21:39:26 funkenstein_: to also be hashed
21:39:34 asciilifeform: couple of ways to do it.
21:39:50 asciilifeform: ( funkenstein_ -- does your crackpot alt have pools ..? )
21:39:57 punkman: I've got that problem filed under "unsolved"
21:40:16 funkenstein_: yup
21:42:20 funkenstein_: it doesn't look like the rise of pools has really stopped the btc much, is there some new reason for not liking pools?
21:42:40 asciilifeform: depends on what you think of as 'stopped btc'
21:48:37 asciilifeform: as for how to do 'non-outsourceable puzzles', i will give a trivial (if impractical) example. say you 'mine' by searching for pairs of primes 7 apart, having 400 decimal digits, in which at least 47 are 9s. as soon as you find one, you sign it with your addr's privkey, and as soon as you sign a block with ~that~, you now have a coinbase + the fee reward.
21:49:10 asciilifeform: there is no way to farm out the search for these puzzle-numbers without giving every participant in said search a chance to snatch your reward away.
21:49:31 asciilifeform: (in fact, any nominally cooperating set of searchers will have exactly equal chances.)
21:49:49 funkenstein_: one could still build pools in the manner of chain restaurants
21:49:51 asciilifeform: it'll be like truffle-hunting, with the twist that the pig can overpower you quite easily and simply eat the thing.
21:50:05 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: what would make the subordinates beholden to the master /
21:50:05 asciilifeform: ?
21:50:14 funkenstein_: franchise owner could in fact just keep all the profits for themselves
21:50:31 funkenstein_: instead they choose to stay in the pool due to the ease of having infrastructure provided for them
21:50:32 asciilifeform: 'i found the magic number, and fuck you' --any of the 'subordinates'
21:50:58 asciilifeform: there'd be no infrastructure, because every single truffle will end inside a pig.
21:51:06 asciilifeform: you, 'master', will never smell, much less eat one.
21:51:08 asciilifeform: think about it.
21:51:14 funkenstein_: yeah, or a McD's owner could also say "This guy gave me the cash, and fuck you"
21:51:23 asciilifeform: mcd relies on meatspace courts/police/etc.
21:51:33 asciilifeform: and the physical identifiability of 'defectors'.
21:52:21 asciilifeform: but in point of fact ~every shit-retail shop in usa has clerks selling 'oops, we lost it' stock, under the table, for cash, and pocketing.
21:52:30 asciilifeform: it is the most common form of pilferage in such shitholes.
21:52:43 funkenstein_: yes, probably not enough too :D
21:54:25 funkenstein_: we'd probably see "run this proprietary turd on your box and we will send you your winnings" pools
21:54:45 funkenstein_: actually there was one like that already
21:55:00 asciilifeform: 'seti at home' or what was it.
21:55:40 asciilifeform: these are interesting perhaps from a psychiatric -- but not from algorithmic - pov.
21:56:15 asciilifeform: and the first reverser who wants to rape you and willing to put in a bit of work -- rapes you.
21:57:39 funkenstein_: yeah well, what is the problem we are trying to solve here? potential centralization and cartelization of mining?
21:57:54 asciilifeform: such as.
21:59:31 funkenstein_: a worthy goal in theory, but a brief look around shows obviously centralized and broken cartels running stuff into the ground everywhere else we look
22:00:12 funkenstein_: even with pools, we are still well ahead here
22:00:14 asciilifeform: could , in theory, try designing something that doesn't incentivize centralization.
22:02:06 asciilifeform: a 'brief look around' 18th c. europe would have you conclude that lice are inescapable part of human body.
22:02:22 asciilifeform: 'aristotle had'em, we have'em, next question'
22:02:53 funkenstein_: hehe, i'm not saying lice aren't a problem - just that one should tackle the giant disease causing ones first :)
22:03:12 funkenstein_: aka private issuers of fiat
22:03:59 asciilifeform: how does funkenstein_ approach this ?
22:04:23 funkenstein_: the problem of monopoly capital is worth considering but I doubt a systemic solution will make itself manifest
22:05:25 asciilifeform: i happen to think that designing an alt that isn't ddosable and won't collapse under own weight in 5, 50, or 500 years, would not be the most useless possible knife against fiatolade.
22:05:48 funkenstein_: the more the merrier :)
22:06:21 funkenstein_: there are always some ddosabilities
22:06:30 asciilifeform: nope.
22:07:08 funkenstein_: well if you have no public face I suppose you are safe :D
22:07:39 asciilifeform: or if killer t-cells cover you 5 seconds after you start your 'ddos'.
22:07:45 asciilifeform: and eat you alive.
22:08:18 funkenstein_: these are interesting considerations but they seem one level up from what constitutes the definition of a coin
22:08:49 asciilifeform: funkenstein_: you seem to have read my 'casks' piece. describe to me how you would approach the ddosing.
22:08:54 funkenstein_: one could run btc with such t-cells, and a btc pool with your pyramid of tx solvers
22:09:33 funkenstein_: well if you are whitelisting all coms, then any ddos will simply take an entry off your whitelist
22:09:57 asciilifeform: start from beginning, plz.
22:10:07 asciilifeform: what does the ddos consist of ?
22:11:01 asciilifeform: say you are commander of nsa, and one day learn that this network exists. what's step 1
22:11:28 asciilifeform: tritler orders: 'take it down or gulag'
22:11:35 asciilifeform: can haz steps ?
22:12:47 funkenstein_: step 1 - laugh at the idea i would take orders from tritler :D
22:13:08 asciilifeform: insert yer favourite potus here.
22:14:04 funkenstein_: ok so what do you want to take down, a mining company?
22:14:23 asciilifeform: nope. the network described in the casks piece.
22:14:31 funkenstein_: well that is a mining network as i understood it
22:14:35 asciilifeform: where a node only talks to his wot.
22:15:26 asciilifeform: in the magical event where you, somehow, found out where one is, you packet flood it, it switches ip and tells list-of-people-that-does-not-include-you, over rsa, where new one is.
22:15:28 asciilifeform: now what.
22:16:07 asciilifeform: say you set up a sham relay. folks up- and down- stream realize you're a sham after one or two blocks. now what.
22:16:12 funkenstein_: well the usual answers are 1) spend a fortune filling the chain with tx from me to me
22:16:30 asciilifeform: go, spend.
22:16:41 asciilifeform: tritler will approve budget increase for this fortune, forever ?
22:16:55 funkenstein_: apparently not, as it would be useless
22:17:14 funkenstein_: i mean, ok, that doesn't stop some people i guess from trying
22:17:18 asciilifeform: this is reminiscent of scene from cartoon 'futurama', where 'we defeated the killer robots!' 'how? 'by throwing wave after wave of men, until their kill counters overflowed'
22:18:16 asciilifeform: usg pumping fortune into mining tx crapolade is how we got 1300 $ btc...
22:18:21 asciilifeform: mega-'attack'.
22:18:40 funkenstein_: i don't see much fee increase
22:18:51 asciilifeform: possibly because miners are dumb as rocks.
22:18:54 funkenstein_: barely went above half a millie even with last weeks four day backlog
22:18:57 asciilifeform: (you more or less have to be, to mine btc)
22:19:01 funkenstein_: ?
22:19:07 asciilifeform: it is just barely +ev.
22:19:24 funkenstein_: well if it is, you mine
22:19:28 funkenstein_: that's how it works
22:19:41 funkenstein_: excess power capacity exists
22:20:04 asciilifeform: the way i currently understand it, it is +ev for so long as the gravy train of cheap mains current in certain orclands, lasts.
22:20:14 funkenstein_: not cheap, free
22:23:41 asciilifeform: in the case of cn -- aha free
22:24:28 funkenstein_: cn has nothing to do with it. power plants often have excess capacity.
22:26:40 funkenstein_: and stuff is run so inefficiently after the 20th century that power arbitrage opportunities are everywhere
22:27:28 asciilifeform: fun while it lasts.
22:27:58 asciilifeform: and until the crowned heads get selfsame heads out of their crowned arses and do some arbitrage of their own.
22:28:55 jurov: utility scale batteries!!!1
22:29:26 asciilifeform: jurov: laugh, but 'pumped hydro' has been a thing for decades
22:29:45 asciilifeform: ( unlike chemical battery, it scales to whatever size you like )
22:31:19 asciilifeform: lulzy
22:36:51 funkenstein_: really lithium?
22:36:58 asciilifeform: really.
22:37:18 asciilifeform: yes the very same that goes to ~60% in 1-2 yrs, catches fire, burns through concrete, etc.
22:37:30 asciilifeform: ( and supplied ~mostly from cn, while the fun cheapolade lasts )
22:37:39 funkenstein_: oy vey
22:40:24 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
22:46:16 asciilifeform: neato