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Transcript for 28-03-2016, 814 lines:

00:22:44 asciilifeform: https://cryptome.org/2016/03/keys-sabu-chen-fbi-notes.pdf << lulzy, purportedly transcript of 'sabu' stoolie

00:22:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ZFND9S )

00:31:33 asciilifeform: wb mike_c

00:31:44 mike_c: hi alf, thx.

00:39:32 asciilifeform: ;;seen kakobrekla

00:39:33 gribble: kakobrekla was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 6 hours, 51 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <kakobrekla> ;;later tell davout http://dpaste.com/2P13Y79.txt

00:39:48 kakobrekla: yes?

00:40:06 asciilifeform: kakotest!

00:43:51 deedbot-: [fraudsters] Autumnal Argentina - http://fraudsters.com/2016/autumnal-argentina/

00:44:39 asciilifeform: ^ looks like mircea_popescu's parrot shot came out slightly better than mine

00:44:44 asciilifeform: (iirc he has same lens!)

00:45:20 asciilifeform: fella must've used a class-A meat tripod!11

00:47:51 mircea_popescu: it was like a mile away or some shit.

00:48:20 asciilifeform: '..twelve people between the ages of nine and sixty, including a coupla teenaged girlies, that stops in the door.' << we have these here !

00:53:25 asciilifeform: fuckdamnit i can almost TASTE these parrots.

00:54:18 *: asciilifeform stares southward.

00:56:21 asciilifeform: http://i.imgur.com/vqBBXFm.jpg << the one on my hdd. i still have not identified the species.

00:56:22 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/21OcKGU )

00:56:40 asciilifeform: perhaps ben_vulpes knows

00:57:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you have sakuras over there ?

01:02:01 asciilifeform: http://i.imgur.com/XSjyCZm.jpg << sakuras in bloom, from rowboat, partial pet on right hand.

01:02:02 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Uw3yZo )

01:03:03 asciilifeform: falling petals, who can avoid the thought of the goban, the sword, seppuku, forgotten honour!11111

01:04:01 mike_c: nice shot. where is that?

01:04:21 asciilifeform: wash.,d.c.

01:04:32 asciilifeform: the very middle of it.

01:07:51 asciilifeform: http://i.imgur.com/Q8Oofs3.jpg << 'bitcoin atm'. first time i ever even saw such a thing.

01:07:52 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Uw3ZTr )

01:08:02 asciilifeform: was in the lobby of some random food thing.

01:11:05 asciilifeform: notice the 'hitler-compliant!11' sticker on bottom right hand.

01:27:06 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I do not have parrots, but most days now I do have titmice flutting about outside

03:09:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15900 @ 0.00049273 = 7.8344 BTC [+]

03:14:28 *: asciilifeform reread golden oldie, http://fraudsters.com/2012/probably-the-hottest-business-idea-of-the-moment-in-btc

03:14:29 assbot: Probably the hottest business idea of the moment in BTC... on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1MuIkIg )

03:15:23 asciilifeform: 'For open source code, you read the code, line by line, verify that it is in fact safe to run. You then issue a PGP-signed certificate which pretty much says "I the X of Y have reviewed the below code and judged it safe in accordance with Z".'

03:19:58 asciilifeform: in other 'news,' https://vjordan.info/log/fpga/xc6slx9-die-layout-and-bitstream.html

03:20:00 assbot: XC6SLX9 die layout and bitstream ... ( http://bit.ly/1MuII9u )

03:22:01 *: asciilifeform mined some of his first btc on xc6slx9

05:09:02 deedbot-: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] The underpriced option. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/03/27/the-underpriced-option/

12:42:39 asciilifeform: http://www.welivesecurity.com/2016/03/23/new-self-protecting-usb-trojan-able-to-avoid-detection << Run Moar Winblowz!1111

12:42:40 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1WSDNzD )

12:44:37 asciilifeform: (somebody explain to me why anyone ever used aes128 for anything..?)

13:02:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00049226 = 10.682 BTC [-] {2}

13:11:21 mircea_popescu: upon consideration, i see no reason to continue supporting or otherwise encourage kakobrekla's bizarre worldview. on the contrary, i view further involvement with the nonsense as considerable moral hazard, and a miserable thing to do altogether.

13:11:21 mircea_popescu: there's absolutely no place in the future, or among civilised people, for this "hi i r zuckerberg and i ~created~ facebook" thing. i can see how it continues the "oh, mp is raining money, let me not get in his way" thing from before, but consistency in poltroonism does not enact poltroonism as an acceptable life philosophy.

13:11:21 mircea_popescu: i can readily understand that fiatism has been for all and sundry the unique way of life, since "forever" ; i can see how the shit is well ensconced and difficult to wash off. nevertheless, loyalty to a group, as opposed to the individual, is still socialism, as much so as either GOP or NSDAP ever were. preserve that and you preserve it all.

13:11:25 mircea_popescu: vaguely defining the group in question, ad-hoc or after the fact, does not resolve the problem, one's still a poltroon. appeals to "science" or "law" or whatever other conveniently vague abstraction still doesn't resolve the fact that one's placed himself on the hostis humani generis side of the debate.

13:11:29 mircea_popescu: and so, this is the end for this particular irc channel as a venue for tmsr. the irc festivities are moving over to #fraudsters ; with a more selective lordship list and improved tools all around. you're welcome to join - but leave the fiat mind behind, lest it drag you too back down into the swamp.

14:04:02 fluffypony: Well I guess we can get nubbins back in now

14:34:32 deedbot-: [Daniel P. Barron] Assassins Game - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/assassins-game/

14:40:07 PeterL: fellow USians, what is your preferred method for moving a couple btc to usd?

14:41:21 PeterL: In the past I had used campbx, but they no longer support electronic deposit, so you have to get a paper check instead (which is more expensive $15 for a check, wft? and also much slower)

14:42:02 PeterL: !up thestringpuller

14:44:09 PeterL: also campbx has a miniscule volume now

14:45:22 PeterL: before using campbx I used mtGox, and the first exchange I used was TradeHill, but those are both gone now

14:46:10 thestringpuller: so CampBX is hosted in a datacenter locally to me

14:46:40 thestringpuller: the guy was operating out of Alpharetta, but yea CampBx kinda went by the wasteside cause d00d didn't get volume for various reasons

14:46:55 PeterL: have you visited it? Do they chage less for withdrawals if you do it in person?

14:46:59 thestringpuller: i used to use them too. back in 2012-2013.

14:47:18 thestringpuller: I dunno. I was gonna do consulting for them when I was in between jobs but got another job before that happened or visited the office.

14:47:22 PeterL: when they stopped doing ach withdrawals they pretty much lost all volume

14:47:35 thestringpuller: yea. there was a blockade put on their bank accounts

14:47:59 PeterL: "temporarily disabled" still not back up over a year later

14:48:17 thestringpuller: you're probably better off doing a transfer on localbitcoins that's bank to bank

14:48:30 thestringpuller: you send btc to an address and give them deposit info and they deposit cash into your account

14:48:36 thestringpuller: usually it's other way around

14:48:46 PeterL: trustworthy enough?

14:48:56 thestringpuller: i've done it a few times from people who have high ratings

14:49:02 thestringpuller: mainyl to buy tho

14:49:07 thestringpuller: i deposit cash they send btc

14:52:18 fluffypony: danielpbarron: that sounds like so much dun

14:52:21 fluffypony: Fun

14:52:25 fluffypony: Goddamn autocorrect

14:54:09 PeterL: Are people going to weigh in on the #bitcoin-assets/#fraudsters schizm? Does everybody have to pick a side?

14:55:07 asciilifeform: PeterL: i can't speak for others, but my irctron supports connecting to >1 chan simult.

14:55:58 PeterL: yeah, but are you going to repeat yourself in both chans all the time?

14:56:56 asciilifeform: l0l TaT is back

14:56:59 PeterL: or are we just going to end up with a bunch of links from one chan to the log of the other and vice cersa?

14:57:06 asciilifeform: prolly.

14:59:37 asciilifeform: !up ThickAsThieves

14:59:47 ThickAsThieves: Hi!

14:59:57 ThickAsThieves: working on auth, one min

15:00:46 kakobrekla: !rate mircea_popescu 10 out of spec; the father of responsibility without accountability or liability; compromised by fiat world; dead to me;

15:00:46 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/e3035be282442bd6

15:01:42 kakobrekla: !v assbot:kakobrekla.rate.mircea_popescu.10:38dd24edd3b15c3b81bb325c73ca303113e5ffe42c9c55640362f61b3b160359

15:01:42 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from 5 to 10 with note: out of spec; the father of responsibility without accountability or liability; compromised by fiat world; dead to me;

15:01:58 PeterL: oooh, the drama! drama is good for btc price, right?

15:02:41 ThickAsThieves: hmm how do i sign using btc addy again? the assbot command?

15:03:52 asciilifeform: ThickAsThieves: you don't

15:04:00 ThickAsThieves: i used to

15:04:04 ThickAsThieves: removed?

15:04:07 asciilifeform: aha

15:04:28 ThickAsThieves: wait taht was gribble

15:04:33 ThickAsThieves: been so long

15:04:40 ThickAsThieves: anyway

15:04:44 ThickAsThieves: just saying hi

15:04:49 asciilifeform: so what brings ya back, ThickAsThieves ?

15:04:56 ThickAsThieves: been reading the logs

15:05:03 ThickAsThieves: so much popcorn consumed

15:05:05 thestringpuller: ThickAsThieves: i thought you retired to hang with the whale club?

15:05:39 ThickAsThieves: i'm an interloper, i quit whaleclub when it got too retarded

15:05:44 ThickAsThieves: twice

15:05:53 ThickAsThieves: just like when i quit here

15:06:17 thestringpuller: sabbaticals are necessary for sanity

15:06:57 ThickAsThieves: i know pankkake is still keeping his eye on things from a dark corner too asciilifeform ;)

15:07:17 thestringpuller: well looks like #b-a forked

15:07:24 ThickAsThieves: hence my arrival

15:07:45 PeterL: are you here to fill the void left by mircea_popescu?

15:07:48 asciilifeform: actually mircea_popescu had his own chan long ago, it was mentioned here

15:07:54 ThickAsThieves: doubtful PeterL

15:07:57 thestringpuller: #fraudsters has been around since 2011

15:08:08 ThickAsThieves: just here to congratulate any who are now liberated

15:08:17 asciilifeform: waiwut

15:08:23 PeterL: did you leave because of mp?

15:08:33 ThickAsThieves: that might be the simplest way to put it

15:08:36 thestringpuller: PeterL: you didn't see the commentary on S.WOL last year?

15:08:40 ThickAsThieves: but not the only reason

15:08:42 ThickAsThieves: for sure

15:08:46 asciilifeform: i thought ThickAsThieves left because he got bored

15:08:57 PeterL: thestringpuller which commentary?

15:09:02 ThickAsThieves: i got bored trying to find reason in the unreasonable, yes

15:09:04 thestringpuller: the s.wol closing statement

15:09:41 thestringpuller: http://fraudsters.com/2014/waroflife-swol-october-2014-statement-closing/#comment-109550

15:09:52 thestringpuller: ^- PeterL

15:10:45 ThickAsThieves: ha those comments seem to have beed reworded in these halls a lot lately

15:11:17 kakobrekla: to correct earlier hallucinations; "hi i r zuckerberg and i ~created~ facebook" << its fine when 'mp and kako created x', its not fine when 'kako created x'

15:11:54 kakobrekla: and "oh, mp is raining money, let me not get in his way" << it was more like "oh mp is deleting bitcoins which arent his, lets get in his way"

15:11:55 ThickAsThieves: i even called MP a lord there, before the lordships

15:11:58 ThickAsThieves: so prescient

15:12:27 ThickAsThieves: anyway, i'm sad to see BitBet go

15:12:33 ThickAsThieves: whole thing is pretty retarded

15:12:43 punkman: kakobrekla: so are you going to maintain assbot and b-a.com?

15:13:10 kakobrekla: but anyway if you wish to follow the hallucinating pope while he drives you off cliff, be my guest - this is how nature works

15:14:02 PeterL: !up thestringpuller

15:14:03 punkman: !up thestringpuller

15:14:04 kakobrekla: punkman i dont see a reason why mp leaving would change anything in regards to that

15:14:43 kakobrekla: or am i missing something?

15:14:50 thestringpuller: ThickAsThieves: aha. it's almost predictive of the present

15:15:12 PeterL: kakobrekla I guess we are all wondering if you are going to take your ball and go home like MP did?

15:15:31 kakobrekla: well, mp did not take his ball really

15:15:32 punkman: kakobrekla: you hadn't been very active lately, I thought you might have been fed up with the place

15:16:03 kakobrekla: he tried to make me eat his shit which i refused and i send the plate back to him and he ate.

15:16:14 kakobrekla: he doesnt like it though.

15:18:12 kakobrekla: punkman i would say i have read every line of it

15:23:16 asciilifeform: imho 'pepsis' are a Good Thing.

15:23:31 asciilifeform: !s from:asciilifeform pepsi

15:23:31 assbot: 11 results for 'from:asciilifeform pepsi' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Aasciilifeform+pepsi

15:25:48 kakobrekla: as long as both soft drinks are wrong :)

15:39:38 asciilifeform: !up ThickAsThieves

15:53:19 jurov: uffffff. looks like the Passover finally took place.

15:53:33 asciilifeform: jurov: you mean the exodus

15:53:50 jurov: and apparently i forgot to paint my door with lamb blood

15:54:02 kakobrekla: l0l

16:04:02 BingoBoingo: In other news, a human powred generator that isn't just cardio http://www.gravpower.org/

16:04:04 assbot: The GravPower Generator ... ( http://bit.ly/1UXgIwR )

16:09:06 fluffypony: Oh I missed ThickAsThieves

16:09:13 fluffypony: Pity

16:24:41 deedbot-: [Qntra] Hearn Can't Quit Maxwell, Declares Maxwell Bitcoin's Leader - http://qntra.net/2016/03/hearn-cant-quit-maxwell-declares-maxwell-bitcoins-leader/

16:27:40 *: mats preps uli knot for #b-a

16:28:07 asciilifeform: waiwut

16:40:54 asciilifeform: !up nubbins`

16:41:13 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i got the crate! a+++ fast shipping good deal!111111

16:41:27 nubbins`: oh good!

16:41:35 nubbins`: +v'd just in time to get the last of my re-ratings

16:41:39 nubbins`: !v assbot:nubbins`.unrate.pete_dushenski:84523ecd398f5be6cca07ab2a7b799d383bc8dcec2b4de51a2f2d6969fcdb1f8

16:41:39 assbot: Successfully unrated pete_dushenski

16:42:37 mats: the war room no longer lives here. just a clubhouse, nao.

16:42:46 asciilifeform: !rate nubbins` 1 trotsky!

16:42:46 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/98ce7b1ca36d18ea

16:42:58 nubbins`: 8)

16:43:00 nubbins`: ty

16:43:55 asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.nubbins`.1:1606137b1fd17476aa9b4f1659ad590ef2c81fdfeaac42a91e8b3517acca67c8

16:43:55 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for nubbins` from -1 to 1 with note: trotsky!

16:44:05 mats: unless kako means to provide materiel, hiding places, reliable people, money for the war effort... which i suspect is not the case.

16:44:52 BingoBoingo: It's a schism, what good cult doesn't have one a few years in?

16:45:37 asciilifeform: old believerz (tm) are advised to grow long beardz!

16:47:50 phf: what does this part of schism has to offer?

16:48:01 asciilifeform: phf: it has kako

16:48:18 asciilifeform: and logz

16:48:27 kakobrekla: mats care to be more specific which materiel, which hiding place, which people and what money did mp provide?

16:49:15 asciilifeform: phf: and a working wottron

16:49:50 phf: mp galvanized this place towards common amorphous and exciting goals. half the value is from your and mp "dialogues"

16:49:58 mats: you must ask the rezident, not me.

16:50:24 kakobrekla: well you brought it up, it seemed like you know what you are talking about

16:50:29 phf: asciilifeform: i've been reading b-a through my own log reader since the beginning. it's literally 5 minute operation to switch

16:50:48 kakobrekla: apart from the unused 10 btc donation to trb foundation im not sure what would fit your description

16:51:03 asciilifeform: phf: nonono, that's not it, LINKABLE logz

16:51:09 asciilifeform: as in, PUBLIC and !s-able

16:51:16 phf: right right

16:51:22 kakobrekla: anyway by all means feel free to switch over to #fraudsters i promise i wont take it personally!

16:51:27 nubbins`: ^

16:51:38 mats: proper commerce for bitcoin via mpex is one of the publicly known works, yes

16:51:55 nubbins`: i for one am looking forward to a reduction in the volume of bellicose rhetoric

16:52:07 kakobrekla: mpex no longer satisfies #b-a standards btw

16:52:07 asciilifeform: i much enjoy kakobrekla and hope that he joins me on my gossip relay when the latter is opened to the net.

16:52:14 phf: nubbins`: replaced with what?

16:52:35 nubbins`: phf if i could see into the future, i'd be chatting on irc right nao? 8)

16:53:19 kakobrekla: most of the time no information is better than wrong information

16:53:46 phf: what i mean is that i don't grok all the strutting. i understand you guys hate mp for various reasons, but this channel has been driven by the guy for the past two years

16:54:01 nubbins`: driven empty maybe

16:54:21 fluffypony: !up ThickAsThieves

16:54:28 phf: nubbins`: where were _you_ hanging out that had better noise/content ratio?

16:54:39 phf: because i'd like to hang out there too

16:55:14 nubbins`: phf meatspace

16:55:23 nubbins`: try it some time

16:55:27 fluffypony: nubbins` hangs out irl

16:55:27 fluffypony: Snap

16:55:31 nubbins`: AOOOOOO

16:55:51 phf: nubbins`: what'd i do to you?

16:55:55 nubbins`: i came here for the btc, stayed for the irreverent skewering of all things. hopefully the skewering remains, we'll see

16:55:58 fluffypony: Seriously, any channel or forum that has a high SNR either has to be kept very small and very closed

16:56:08 fluffypony: Or it Eternal Septembers

16:56:11 nubbins`: phf just taking the pee, no harm

16:56:43 nubbins`: fwiw mp was an impediment to the logz/conversation at least as often as a contributor

16:56:50 kakobrekla: phf really if you feel like listening to someone who cant admit own mistake then one irc command will bring him back to you whats the big deal?

16:56:59 nubbins`: i can't imagine that everyone here hasn't just glossed over enormous swaths of his text

16:57:30 fluffypony: lol nubbins`

16:57:36 phf: kakobrekla: that's not the only characteristic of mp, but that's the most relevant for you right now

16:57:51 kakobrekla: phf how much shit in the soup is ok?

16:58:25 nubbins`: "here's a fantastic article about pgp contracts, btw women are whores and bill gates is a nigger"

16:58:26 nubbins`: ^ mp

16:58:48 nubbins`: cool, i'll just go ahead and share this information with literally nobody

16:58:55 nubbins`: thanks for the blog post

16:58:56 phf: kakobrekla: ive not had to eat it and i'll tell you, most people have shit in their soup

16:59:15 kakobrekla: i guess im too principled then

16:59:19 nubbins`: ^

16:59:25 nubbins`: turns out this is the case

16:59:34 phf: kakobrekla: nah, dude, you were forced to eat it

16:59:59 phf: how mp was was kind of obvious for years, it's just that you were on the receiving end of it

17:00:33 kakobrekla: i refused to eat it, thats why bbet went down and everything that follows

17:00:57 phf: kakobrekla: well, you were forced and you refused, so you're pissed off

17:01:20 phf: but the shit was there before you were forced, it's in writing and in his rhetoric, so what principle are we talking about here?

17:01:44 nubbins`: what

17:02:17 kakobrekla: afaik i wasnt really forced but given the opportunity

17:02:36 kakobrekla: but that aside, the principle is _i_ will not eat it. if others want - feel free.

17:03:57 kakobrekla: a restaurant may have been good for years, until the day turds start swimming in the soup. at this point i stop frequenting it.

17:06:41 nubbins`: ;;gettrust mircea_popescu nubbins`

17:06:42 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user nubbins`: Level 1: 2, Level 2: 16 via 15 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=mircea_popescu&dest=nubbins%60 | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=nubbins%60 | Rated since: Wed Oct 16 19:58:53 2013

17:08:41 punkman: kakobrekla: mpex no longer satisfies #b-a standards btw << may I suggest a deed written about it

17:10:12 punkman: oh we no longer have deedbot it seems

17:10:35 punkman: !up pennybeer

17:11:17 punkman: !up nubbins`

17:11:21 pennybeer: Hi all. Just popping in to see how the receivership is going

17:11:42 kakobrekla: phf> kakobrekla: ive not had to eat it < actually tbh here, i think that anyone who condones the mp hallucinatory habits is eating it.

17:11:49 nubbins`: !down nubbins`

17:12:35 nubbins`: there we go

17:12:38 nubbins`: ty punkman

17:13:06 nubbins`: punkman i wonder if bingoboingo will write an article on qntra about it

17:13:07 phf: kakobrekla: that's entirely unclear to me why that would be the case

17:13:17 nubbins`: he sorta missed a huge scoop from me back when all this was brewing

17:14:05 nubbins`: http://pastebin.com/raw/1rNmkeLh submitted march 7, pasted here for yr historical interest

17:14:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RBekJU )

17:14:48 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2016#1440831 << aha

17:14:48 assbot: Logged on 28-03-2016 16:54:28; phf: nubbins`: where were _you_ hanging out that had better noise/content ratio?

17:15:33 kakobrekla: phf well you either agree with it or you are turning a blind eye. both options are toxic.

17:15:46 phf: kakobrekla: i have a whole bunch of friends from different circles who have similarly elaborate world views, and it's worthwhile to know where they end and you begin so to speak. i find asciilifeform and mp's dialogues for example, insightful

17:16:34 kakobrekla: yes, it is unfortunate what happened, yet it did.

17:17:19 phf: i've yet to hear anything from nubbins that will make me think for longer then a minute or two and i don't mean that as a diss

17:17:55 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: unfortunately the third option is also toxic.

17:17:57 kakobrekla: one of the components went off and it is no longer in spec. if you wish to use it you may get it at the garbage collection site.

17:18:03 nubbins`: no diss taken

17:18:08 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: fact is, mircea is the only credible antinazi force on planet3 right now.

17:18:13 nubbins`: !s signal noise from:nubbins`

17:18:14 assbot: 4 results for 'signal noise from:nubbins`' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=signal+noise+from%3Anubbins%60

17:18:23 asciilifeform: or such as will speak to folks like asciilifeform .

17:18:25 kakobrekla: i am not convinced re that at all asciilifeform.

17:18:53 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: you got a spare mp in a crate, or what

17:18:59 asciilifeform: 'cause i don't.

17:19:40 kakobrekla: his actions lately very much resemble what fiatman would do.

17:20:02 asciilifeform: i have nfi, for all i know he took some strong dope

17:20:13 nubbins`: nah he doesn't believe drugs make people high

17:20:16 nubbins`: iirc

17:20:16 kakobrekla: so you see it he is out of spec ?

17:20:20 asciilifeform: but fact remains, mp on dope still > than rest of miserable shitpit that is the net.

17:20:39 kakobrekla: go beg him for it on #fraudsters then, problem solved?

17:21:09 asciilifeform: i dun dope, generally

17:21:47 asciilifeform: but i will point out, for the benefit of folks who were not here last time, that we are re-enacting the spanish civil war.

17:22:14 kakobrekla: anyway to repeat, it comes down to 'how much shit in the soup' or 'how much piss in the wine'. this is something one has to decide for himself.

17:22:38 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: in all seriousness, are you thinking of building your own mpex ?

17:22:46 asciilifeform: (otherwise, which 'assets' exactly..)

17:22:58 nubbins`: if you do, can you please skip the DERPs, PMBs, etc?

17:23:12 asciilifeform: there were pmb on mpex?!

17:23:16 nubbins`: yeah

17:23:20 nubbins`: don't you recall?

17:23:22 PeterL: briefly, long ago

17:23:37 kakobrekla: asciilifeform are 'indians' playing in 'redskins' team?

17:25:02 asciilifeform: waiwut

17:25:03 phf: kakobrekla: the implication is insulting, but mostly creates bad blood where none existed. i'm not trying to plead with you, i'm explaining what i found worthwhile in b-a and expressing some concern over feature ability of this channel to sustain it. your response is basically "go to fraudsters then!"

17:26:32 nubbins`: asciilifeform https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76401.0

17:26:34 assbot: [MPEx] Introducing F.PURE.SYNTH ... ( http://bit.ly/1RBgSaF )

17:26:39 nubbins`: http://fraudsters.com/2013/the-list-of-discontinued-assets-on-mpex/#footnote_4_48644

17:26:41 assbot: The list of discontinued assets on MPEx on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1RBgUPQ )

17:26:55 nubbins`: it was an "ironic pmb" tho, so technically not scammy or something

17:27:32 asciilifeform: nubbins`: this must've been before my time

17:27:32 nubbins`: phf he's basically telling you to stuff your concern, no offense

17:27:39 phf: nubbins`: i figured

17:27:41 nubbins`: asciilifeform it was before mine

17:27:51 phf: nubbins`: just was making sure that that's what he's saying

17:28:00 nubbins`: phf nobody really wants to put any amount of effort into convincing you or anyone else to stay

17:28:08 nubbins`: that was more mp's thing

17:28:33 nubbins`: asciilifeform just when you think you know somebody, huh

17:29:32 phf: nubbins`: nobody convinced me to come here either, the channel carried itself on its own weight

17:29:36 asciilifeform: i will stay until kako unplugs me or until this place begins to show the inevitable signs of opportunistic infection, like aids patient. (like it or not, mircea_popescu ~was~ the immune system, keeping out filth of usg and other variety)

17:30:24 PeterL: will "lords list" be revised at all?

17:30:28 asciilifeform: but most of what i did here (and my original purpose in coming here, as invited by) was to publicly harp on mircea_popescu

17:30:40 asciilifeform: so i will be doing that in his chan.

17:30:50 asciilifeform: !up thestringpuller

17:31:05 nubbins`: PeterL lords list vs assbot L1?

17:31:33 PeterL: well, whatever you want to call it

17:32:10 PeterL: it is still there and works to filter voicing for the chan

17:32:30 nubbins`: seems ok for now, although i'd recommend removing mp and hanbot from L1

17:33:01 kakobrekla: phf im not sure what exactly do you want me to do here? if you like to read my, you should definitely go where mp writes. i think this much is obvious. and if you dont feel like staying here i will not hold it against you at all.

17:33:13 kakobrekla: read mp*

17:33:14 asciilifeform: kakobrekla et al: this is your chance to demonstrate that a tmsr could potentially function without a working mp

17:34:06 nubbins`: it's mp's chance to demonstrate that he could potentially be a great screenprinter

17:34:11 asciilifeform: e.g., build a kakobrex

17:34:18 asciilifeform: (brekekekekex!111)

17:34:46 kakobrekla: l0l. im not sure why are you giving so much importance to that thing. what am i missing?

17:35:13 kakobrekla: (note that since bbet news mpex volume (apart from some divesting) is ~0)

17:35:34 nubbins`: i think the mpoe bot picked up trading again in the last couple days

17:35:49 phf: kakobrekla: i wanted you to consider the meaning of things i said, obviously i can perform my own actions and things that you can't act on you can't act on, jeez, man, this is like talking to a man in enemy foxhole

17:35:52 nubbins`: there were a few lulzy periods of straight back & forth shuffling around the minimum

17:36:14 nubbins`: phf i also do not understand what you're trying to ask

17:36:18 nubbins`: maybe restate it

17:37:15 kakobrekla: phf sorry i did not want to be insulting however your point seems to be escaping me. 'the meaning of things'? this is very broad and is, as shown, interpreted in different ways by different folks.

17:37:20 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: well, nominally #b-a was about assets

17:37:25 asciilifeform: which meant 'hodling' and mpex.

17:37:37 asciilifeform: can one have a channel devoted to subj of hodling? perhaps...

17:37:42 kakobrekla: asciilifeform it wasnt about assets for the last n years really

17:38:12 PeterL: isn't mp the one who said "the people in the channel are the assets"

17:38:12 kakobrekla: maybe it was about the other kind of assets, not a financial instrument, but say people.

17:40:22 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: sadly, pretty much all of the assets - escaped

17:40:50 kakobrekla: this i envisioned

17:42:00 PeterL: I guess another question is does trb dev stay here or move to #fraudsters?

17:42:04 asciilifeform: but imho this is a very fitting place for asciilifeform - the #b-a with no assets, the man with no assets.

17:42:42 asciilifeform: PeterL: pretty much all the patch-contributin' folk are in #fraudsters, i will be trb-ing there

17:43:12 kakobrekla: anyway i am not fond of any kind of 'believers' so i will not be shedding a tear over this

17:44:07 asciilifeform: i always wondered what kakobrekla did with his time (but never asked, not really my business)

17:44:12 asciilifeform: can't imagine that bbet took up most of it

17:44:18 kakobrekla: but i can see how religion can be hard to nullify. the more you beat it the more it fights back.

17:45:32 kakobrekla: asciilifeform reading mostly.

17:45:56 asciilifeform: neato

17:46:24 phf: kakobrekla: i said basically "this place was cool cause of dialogues and crazy projects" and the response was "what can i do? what do you want from me?". i don't want anything, was just hoping you might have an idea for a future direction, or perhaps my words will prompt you to think about future purpose of b-a. i noticed that you registered #tmsr a week ago, so a possibility of an exodus was at least considered, so with that i thought you

17:46:24 phf: might have something to say, but it seems like i was wrong.

17:46:39 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: b00kz?

17:48:52 asciilifeform: phf: i imagine it won't be long now until the prb, havelol, coinbase, etc. folk worm their way in.

17:49:07 asciilifeform: or alternatively kakobrekla will keep them out, but what instead ?

17:49:48 kakobrekla: asciilifeform yes, books and code.

17:50:04 asciilifeform: so kakobrekla lives pretty much the life i'd like to live. neat.

17:50:15 kakobrekla: as for 'what instead' http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2016#1440827

17:50:15 assbot: Logged on 28-03-2016 16:53:19; kakobrekla: most of the time no information is better than wrong information

17:51:01 punkman: /me wants Ada Bitcoin Wallet Working Group - ABWWG

17:51:14 asciilifeform: so in kakobrekla's view, e.g., trb, is a Wrong Thing ?

17:51:21 asciilifeform: punkman: we have one.

17:51:29 asciilifeform: punkman: it lives on the other planet

17:51:35 punkman: wut

17:51:41 kakobrekla: asciilifeform how did you get to that conclusion?

17:52:00 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: well, trb lives in #t-a now

17:52:25 phf: i got that point is still disputed, since there's talk of schism

17:53:13 phf: but what kakobrekla wrote i also read as destruction, rather then reform

17:53:22 phf: *i guess that point

17:53:48 asciilifeform: i suppose he doesn't want to be antipope ?

17:54:27 asciilifeform: what i was trying to say earlier is that he's still stuck with that job, for so long as he keeps #b-a plugged in

17:54:33 asciilifeform: or it will turn into #bitcoin

17:54:58 punkman: asswot still exists

17:55:05 kakobrekla: with what job? keeping the evil out? i thought the wot was suppose to do that.

17:55:20 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: that was only ~half~ of pope's job

17:55:26 asciilifeform: the other half is to push good forward

17:55:31 punkman: I don't see why I'd want a pope

17:56:00 asciilifeform: punkman: i dun want gravity either, but there it is

17:56:05 asciilifeform: dem0000cracy is impotent.

17:58:17 PeterL: asciilifeform why can't people here push good forward?

17:58:31 asciilifeform: PeterL: i did not say that they could not.

17:58:40 asciilifeform: just that kakobrekla is stuck with working as antipope.

17:58:57 asciilifeform: and that the results will depend ~entirely on how good of an antipope he will be.

17:59:42 PeterL: why must kakobrekla be the antipope and not somebody else here?

18:00:06 asciilifeform: PeterL: 'cause he maintains l1 and the bots ?

18:00:41 PeterL: he maintained L1 previously, how is it different now?

18:01:57 phf: for at least a period he will have to perform explicit actions related to operations, that will affect the future hierarch structure, which makes him a defacto antipope, even if others are aiming for the position

18:01:58 kakobrekla: as for schism, i see it this way: mp thinks i did something wrong (and i the opposite). if people feel he is right, they should absolutely follow him - i wouldnt care for those to be here. if they feel he isnt, they shouldnt because doing that is toxic. removing a bad thing is almost equal to adding a good thing. in a complex system it is in fact better.

18:02:40 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: this is roughly equivalent to saying in 1942, 'if you don't like stalin, quit the red army'

18:02:53 asciilifeform: yes, stalin was an arse

18:02:54 PeterL: asciilifeform does often talk about the benefits of removing crud

18:03:03 asciilifeform: but what is the alternative ?

18:03:20 asciilifeform: the ~constructive~ alternative

18:03:32 asciilifeform: that doesn't resolve to 'let the germans overrun the world'

18:04:11 PeterL: asciilifeform move to usia?

18:04:20 asciilifeform: there is no usia.

18:04:32 asciilifeform: there is mircea_popescu vs the nazis.

18:04:55 PeterL: maybe you need to expand your worldview to include other options?

18:05:01 asciilifeform: PeterL: WHAT options.

18:05:03 asciilifeform: show me some !

18:05:37 PeterL: we will see what is left here as the dust settles from the schizm?

18:05:52 asciilifeform: sure.

18:06:30 kakobrekla: asciilifeform i guess we wait and see how many nazis will come here and establish how good of a repellent mp was

18:06:44 asciilifeform: unfortunately the constructive activity, such as it was, all moved. and, ftr, it did not ask me whether it ought to, l0l

18:07:06 punkman: what activity

18:07:10 asciilifeform: punkman: e.g., trb

18:07:21 punkman: and why moved?

18:07:33 kakobrekla: i dont mind it. if people want to eat crud, let them!

18:07:40 asciilifeform: because most of the folk who actually authored patches, are there?

18:07:49 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: trb == crud ?

18:07:59 kakobrekla: no

18:09:10 kakobrekla: out of spec element is crud.

18:09:26 phf: http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF099-Grammar_Wizard.gif

18:09:28 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UqrPj4 )

18:09:41 asciilifeform: ^ aha!

18:10:10 asciilifeform: pbf is mega-lulzy

18:10:58 ben_vulpes: what is this 'out of spec', kakobrekla ?

18:11:10 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see this morning's l0gz

18:11:28 ben_vulpes: i read but did not understand

18:11:31 PeterL: asciilifeform as of right now, it looks like the "costructive element" is listening to both chans, so I would not agree that trb has moved, yet

18:12:17 phf: PeterL: hence this conversation

18:12:25 asciilifeform: PeterL: for now.

18:13:18 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2016#1440889 << ?

18:13:18 assbot: Logged on 28-03-2016 17:17:57; kakobrekla: one of the components went off and it is no longer in spec. if you wish to use it you may get it at the garbage collection site.

18:14:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes is in for mega-surprise

18:14:55 ben_vulpes: this would be referring to assbot no longer relaying trades?

18:15:10 kakobrekla: no, it still does that atm.

18:15:15 punkman: I'd say ben_vulpes and mod6 will decide which channel the foundation website points to, but surely there can be development going on in more than one place at once

18:15:17 kakobrekla: but there arent any

18:15:45 punkman: ah I thought you had turned it off

18:15:50 kakobrekla: nope

18:16:01 punkman: any new exchanges I haven't heard about?

18:16:14 punkman: been a while since I last looked

18:16:19 PeterL: trb site still points here for now

18:16:37 asciilifeform: punkman: plenty of non-wot sc4mz0rz happy to take your coinz whenever you like

18:17:12 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i await this mega surprise with baited breath, having failed to find anything in the logs

18:17:24 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2016#1440677

18:17:24 assbot: Logged on 28-03-2016 13:11:29; mircea_popescu: and so, this is the end for this particular irc channel as a venue for tmsr. the irc festivities are moving over to #fraudsters ; with a more selective lordship list and improved tools all around. you're welcome to join - but leave the fiat mind behind, lest it drag you too back down into the swamp.

18:17:27 phf: ben_vulpes: he's talking about mp, being a component that went out of spec

18:18:15 ben_vulpes: ah hm

18:18:43 phf: it's whachamacallit a metaphor

18:18:49 ben_vulpes: yes yes

18:18:50 kakobrekla: ever had a gpu faliure? it reminds me of it.

18:19:09 ben_vulpes: punkman: 'development' doesn't happen in an irc channel any more than surgery does

18:19:16 asciilifeform: i had no less than drowned (yes, in water) gpu

18:19:17 ben_vulpes: happens on tables in workshops

18:19:55 kakobrekla: asciilifeform i assume it was thrown in the bin after, neh?

18:20:25 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: not immediately! a chum & i installed it in a schmuck's machine (this was at a uni dorm hall) at night

18:20:31 asciilifeform: to see his face, when he wakes up

18:20:32 kakobrekla: l0l

18:20:43 kakobrekla: you prankster you

18:21:04 asciilifeform: it had cga-style 'snow'

18:21:33 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2016#1440808 << /me now in a pickle, would like to talk about hash functions, but normal parties to these conversations won't talk on The Record and the new court does not yet have stenography in place

18:21:33 assbot: Logged on 28-03-2016 16:48:18; asciilifeform: and logz

18:21:45 asciilifeform: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GGw_HvmK7g << see also

18:21:47 assbot: CGA SNOW - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/22UUgHi )

18:21:58 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: aha this is what i meant by 'it moved'

18:23:01 kakobrekla: nah. it will move when ascii moves.

18:23:31 asciilifeform: ascii is already sitting on 2 chairs with 1 arse

18:23:43 kakobrekla: on a good way then ?

18:23:46 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform imagines he is alone in this?

18:24:30 phf: ben_vulpes: i'm sure he can read both channel lists

18:25:05 kakobrekla: this is rather boggling to me. how can you sit on two chairs. my thought was this was not compatible.

18:25:33 asciilifeform: i have a tremendous arse, must be.

18:26:05 phf: or perhaps the thinking is that it's impossible to read two channels at the same time!

18:26:11 ben_vulpes: phf: y'see the gaping chasm between 'can read' and 'will converse in realtime'?

18:26:56 kakobrekla: i wasnt concerned about technical part of it.

18:27:00 asciilifeform: the 'fun' won't really have begun in earnest until the wots diverge.

18:27:53 phf: ben_vulpes: i never thought of it that way, i usually speak in all the channels i'm present

18:27:53 kakobrekla: yet again.

18:28:22 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: e.g., which wot will jurov operate turdatron on ?

18:28:27 asciilifeform: or for that matter, phf - his

18:28:37 PeterL: usually the pace of conversation is slow enough that it is not a problem to be in 2 chans

18:28:41 ben_vulpes: phf: i am so very un-eager to play telephone across irc channels.

18:29:08 phf: ben_vulpes: i suspect this is a very temporary state of affairs. conversations are going to diverge

18:29:43 kakobrekla: asciilifeform i will not be surprised that wots will be switched to new fork. agitprop will be strong.

18:30:25 PeterL: what about when you are conversing with somebody and reply in the wrong chan, then everybody gets confused!

18:30:54 asciilifeform: deedbot, it appears, perma-moved ?

18:32:14 ben_vulpes: trinque as well, asciilifeform.

18:32:56 PeterL: so now #b-a needs another implementation of deedbot?

18:33:19 asciilifeform: PeterL: if it doesn't want to be reclaimed by the jungle - yes

18:33:32 phf: PeterL: you seem to completely underestimate the implications of this schism :)

18:33:40 asciilifeform: ^

18:33:42 PeterL: I suppose we need a new jobs board then too

18:34:36 ben_vulpes: phf: quite

18:40:56 phf: i have for example 2k loc of lisp code for reading, annotating, grouping, etc. log entries which is part of the whole "illuminated logs" initiative. it uses kakobrekla's dumps as authoritative source and does magicks on the result, like cross referencing (you get pretty little arrows next to entries that are referenced later in the log allowing you to jump to threads). in the final stages of cleanup. it'a a nifty little gun, that i've no id

18:40:57 phf: ea where to aim at this point, so i'm trying to have better idea as to whether or not there's a semblance of leadership here, or if it's just going to be all the past mp rejects showing up, struttin'

18:41:46 asciilifeform: phf: that is what i wanted to know as well.

18:42:18 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-12-2015#1353180

18:42:18 assbot: Logged on 25-12-2015 21:17:58; mircea_popescu: your life's work is not welcome here!

18:43:02 asciilifeform: was i the only one whose 'life's work' mp welcomed ?

18:43:07 asciilifeform: (to the extent he 'welcomes' things)

18:44:34 ben_vulpes: i could not say

18:44:38 phf: asciilifeform: i don't think the arrangement was ever about pats on the back, more like "i have this thermonuke, i built it out of balls of yarn, you guys need it deployed and operational?"

18:44:41 ben_vulpes: what sapper may

18:45:31 asciilifeform: phf: i have nfi, you will have to decide, here, there, or both...

18:46:02 phf: of course

18:47:46 asciilifeform: the basic point that mircea_popescu was, in his brutal way, making, was that... fuhrerprinzip. i.e. tmsr may be a mircea_popescu thing, or - if kakobrekla demonstrates, perhaps a kakobrekla thing - but under no circumstances can it work as a 'everybuddddy all hold handz!!111' thing.

18:47:52 asciilifeform: demoocracy is idiocy.

18:48:33 asciilifeform: !s buluceala

18:48:34 assbot: 16 results for 'buluceala' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buluceala

18:48:43 kakobrekla: im ok with fuhrer as long as its not driving bus off cliff

18:48:53 asciilifeform: when you find yourself asking 'which wot' - that is already a descent into buluceala.

18:48:58 asciilifeform: !up thestringpuller

18:50:25 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: re: mp's: loyalty to a group, as opposed to the individual << i don't think "socialism/democracy" is the enemy. i've always been under the firm belief allegiance is merely temporary as kakobrekla stated.

18:50:52 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: who, then, is the enemy ?

18:50:53 thestringpuller: yesterday nazi's. today the soviets. tomorrow the terrorists(tm).

18:50:59 asciilifeform: it is always one and the same.

18:51:01 asciilifeform: the idiot mass.

18:51:09 asciilifeform: and its champions.

18:51:14 asciilifeform: so yes, it ~is~ democracy.

18:51:26 thestringpuller: intelligent people can disagree and go to war

18:51:48 asciilifeform: intelligent people were running off to argentina and eating cyanide in despair.

18:52:09 asciilifeform: while the idiots had their war.

18:52:29 thestringpuller: well, there is no "loyalty to the end" unless you are willing to ~actually~ give your life for said loyalty.

18:52:38 thestringpuller: and even then that loyalty is only temporary.

18:54:24 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i fully expect to eventually be killed for my tmsr work.

18:54:52 asciilifeform: what's more, i will not see myself as having been effective here until, likely, the noose is on.

18:56:10 thestringpuller: you are a good soldier. a mind of a soldier.

18:56:33 asciilifeform: well, from that pov, abysmal soldier - still alive !11

18:56:53 thestringpuller: however I still haven't answered the question myself whether soldiers are merely expendable political tools or something more...

18:57:13 kakobrekla: in reality this whole thing is a charade. mp fucked up spectacularly with that bet and wanted to cover it up with chinese story. some folks believed him, some folk pretended, unfortunately i did not play that game and was basically the only person that could stand in his way(y). however he could not back down for the fear of losing his face and hence had no choice but to split.

18:57:59 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: if he only wanted to 'cover it up,' he could have filled in the hole with own btc

18:58:23 kakobrekla: coulda woulda shoulda

18:58:36 asciilifeform: trivially could.

18:58:45 asciilifeform: 'generous donation to shareholders from anon'

18:59:35 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: i see no reason to disbelieve mp re: his 'blind loyalty!11' thing

18:59:36 kakobrekla: he could have kept quiet until someone goes 'this bet was paid twice, mp is a dangerous idiot'

18:59:47 asciilifeform: seems like he wanted to up the temperature.

19:00:22 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: in practice nobody gives a fuck until he, personally, is bleeding

19:00:34 danielpbarron: it doesn't matter if he screwed up or not; this is more "teaching the controversy" to make up a dichotomy that wasn't real, as if to inspire some sort of democratic uprising away from Mircea, as if such a thing is even desirable

19:00:48 kakobrekla: l0l!

19:00:49 ben_vulpes: http://fraudsters.com/2016/you-ever-read-henry-the-fifth/#footnote_2_65507

19:00:51 assbot: You ever read Henry the Fifth ? on fraudsters - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1qbQRWu )

19:02:37 danielpbarron: if the deal was that one is in charge of handling the money and payments for a company, it's still the company that takes a hit if the one screws up, if we are to even entertain the premise that it was a mistake

19:02:47 kakobrekla: [21:00:32] <danielpbarron> it doesn't matter if he screwed up or not; < anyone who is in line with that sort of thought, please to follow your dear leader over the cliff. ill pay for the bus ticket.

19:03:01 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: "Isn't it beautiful? It's almost tragic. When life ends, it gives off a final lingering aroma. Light is but a farewell gift from the darkness to those on their way to die." << a soldier's purpose isn't to die. it's to complete the mission. at. all. costs. even if that means their life.

19:03:03 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: i agree, now as then

19:04:05 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: if the leaders aren't pulling the strings (determining the missions), then who is?

19:04:28 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: iirc nubbins` was the only one who held 'hardline' that 'mp must cough up the coinz'

19:04:43 PeterL: danielpbarron but he should admit that it was his mistake that lost the money for the company, instead of blameing some wild conspiracy

19:04:47 danielpbarron: i only wish i had as firm a grasp on it then as i do now, so that maybe i could have argued as such while arguing could still salvage things

19:05:16 danielpbarron: PeterL, says who? who even are you?

19:05:23 phf: the people!

19:05:26 PeterL: says everybody?

19:05:55 danielpbarron: everybody can get bent

19:05:58 asciilifeform: well recall, mircea_popescu said 'no mistake, chinese miner cartel'

19:06:04 asciilifeform: i asked 'explain'

19:06:08 asciilifeform: he: 'seeeekrit evidence'

19:06:13 asciilifeform: at which the thread ended.

19:06:15 PeterL: "I did something stupid, and anybody could have seen the result beforehand, but it is not my fault"

19:07:05 danielpbarron: no such statement is required. what is this? how things werk in america?

19:07:10 ben_vulpes: what, would peterl expect my company to bill me for a money order a client handed me at a soiree that i later accidentally let fly while walking into the bank?

19:07:12 phf: PeterL: that's actually not true as far as "seen the result beforehand". bitbet has a long disputed history of successful zero fee transactions

19:07:21 asciilifeform: i patiently explained that, yes, the array of sybils that we ~know~ to comprise most of what we mistakenly call btc nodes, could have easily dug up tx-a.

19:07:38 asciilifeform: but thread dereiled into... well, the rest of it.

19:07:50 asciilifeform: and soon nobody gave a rat's arse re: cartel, sybils, or the lot.

19:07:56 PeterL: well, he signed two transactions, and was somehow surprised when both were put into blocks

19:08:30 danielpbarron: i think Mircea would have been surprised if both ~didn't~ confirm

19:08:33 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: oh i give a strong shit.

19:09:04 ben_vulpes: but at that point the conversation was relentlessly focused upon the 18 btc and not the sybils and cartels

19:09:20 ben_vulpes: and for that i bear no small amount of fault

19:09:46 phf: PeterL: that is actually a highly disputed "surprise", because of how transactions propagate. at the very least at's a calculated gamble to assume that the transactions were expired

19:10:22 PeterL: but at no point did mp acknowledge that it was his fault for sending the txn twice

19:11:19 phf: PeterL: the "fault" could be discovered with a lot of actual investigation, i.e. we need to know which nodes mp's node was connected to, how much knowledge mp had about the precise nature of the nodes he was connected to, etc.

19:11:41 kakobrekla: phf secret court and secret evidence

19:11:45 asciilifeform: ^

19:11:47 kakobrekla: idk why the thought here is that rehashing this will bring new insight

19:11:52 phf: kakobrekla: that's not the part i'm talking about

19:12:17 asciilifeform: phf: mp said, in effect, 'i won't reveal sources'n'methods'

19:12:25 danielpbarron: what fault? there is no fault.

19:12:36 kakobrekla: 'because they are all made up' asciilifeform forgot.

19:13:05 phf: i'm saying that even ignoring the alleged miner collusion you need to know the precise node topography to make any claims about zero fee transaction expiry

19:13:33 kakobrekla: well, we know that node relay policies are inconsistent

19:13:43 kakobrekla: and we know we dont know what mempools hold

19:14:03 kakobrekla: and we know that is the important bit

19:14:13 phf: but more importantly to a hypothetical court trial is how much knowledge mp had about this topography, so that way we can say whether or not his call was competent or not

19:14:16 ben_vulpes: "the mempool" is all signed transactions ever.

19:14:19 ben_vulpes: it's not even a thing.

19:14:33 danielpbarron: so then you don't like the decision someone else made? so what? it was his decision to make. nobody else's.

19:14:42 kakobrekla: phf by his own admission hi call was 'masochistic' (but later billed sadistically)

19:14:53 ben_vulpes: just like "relay policies" aren't a meaningful hting.

19:15:00 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in practice, assuming 'eternal mempool' creates serious problems.

19:15:12 kakobrekla: asciilifeform it should be assumed eternal

19:15:20 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it would mean, for example, that the coin tied up in tx-a will ~never~ become available.

19:15:28 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: in practice, any signed, valid transaction may be rebroadcast at any point.

19:15:34 asciilifeform: true

19:15:36 kakobrekla: aha

19:15:55 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "eternal mempool" has zero implications for miner inclusion rules.

19:15:57 ben_vulpes: zero.

19:16:17 ben_vulpes: block validation *cannot* depend on what's in the "mempool".

19:16:25 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: recall, mp's hypothesis was that miner cartel is perma-boycotting his addrs

19:16:28 phf: kakobrekla: in this case "masochistic" referred to mp's expectations that the transactions will never go through, so i don't know how that can be seen as bad behavior. it's consistent with his expectations that the ops failed

19:16:58 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: which is why the doublespendz

19:17:16 kakobrekla: i dont see it that way phf. if the tx never went through it would not be masochistic.

19:17:24 PeterL: asciilifeform tx-a is no longer valid and removed from "eternal mempool" when its inputs are put in a block

19:17:41 phf: kakobrekla: but you see how there can be a different interpretation?

19:18:07 kakobrekla: phf you are referring to http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=02-03-2016#1420304 right ?

19:18:07 assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:17:04; mircea_popescu: i'm a masochist like that.

19:18:30 phf: kakobrekla: yes

19:18:52 kakobrekla: and you know this means 'hurting self' not 'hurting others' ?

19:18:54 asciilifeform: incidentally, i have no proof one way or another, that he was wrong

19:19:01 asciilifeform: but i ~can~ show that sybil net would have easily achieved the result he attributes to miner cartel.

19:19:14 kakobrekla: asciilifeform just as you have no proof flying saucers do not exist.

19:19:40 PeterL: kakobrekla he could be reffering to 'masochistically' from the perspective of bitbet, rather than from the perspective of mp?

19:20:05 kakobrekla: yeah, however bitbet was not solely his toy so this is, how do we say, moot.

19:20:31 phf: kakobrekla: what i'm saying is that it's consistent with his own interpretation, i.e. "i realized that transactions were being blocked, i sent a few more in even after realizing that nothing would happen, the whole exercise was masochistic, because the end result would be the same-- transactions are blocked"

19:21:22 asciilifeform: the end result was maximally consistent with 'enemy waited for YEARS for JUST THIS chance to FUCK ME' from his pov

19:21:26 kakobrekla: yeah, i understand now what are you saying however i dont see it that way.

19:21:47 kakobrekla: the pain of second tx not going through = approx 0.

19:22:40 kakobrekla: asciilifeform you realize how detached from reality that sounds?

19:22:49 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: nope.

19:22:54 kakobrekla: mkay

19:23:01 asciilifeform: hey i have same kind of mental process.

19:23:17 asciilifeform: it is responsible for 100% of my getting out of bed and doing anything.

19:23:48 PeterL: I guess waiting to fire that canon worked, now tmsr is splintering and mpex prices are falling

19:24:16 kakobrekla: PeterL mps reaction did that.

19:24:35 kakobrekla: not the cannon itself.

19:24:52 kakobrekla: (hint there was no cannon)

19:24:53 asciilifeform: hey it is how, e.g., influenza, kills.

19:25:11 asciilifeform: and i remain unconvinced of the 'no cannon' thing.

19:25:35 phf: wasn't there like a year of logs where all we talked about was lizard hitler, why nobody stood up then to point out how delusional that was?

19:25:35 kakobrekla: its a probability thing, granted.

19:25:38 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: on an entirely different topic, does GNAT do the "no heap" trick on its own or must the user specify?

19:25:49 kakobrekla: but the probability thing depends largely on the amount of hallucinogens.

19:26:18 nubbins`: fwiw s.mpoe started tanking just as mp announced "miner cartel", which to me was a clear indication that any remaining sane holders fled

19:26:31 nubbins`: as they realized there were bats in the belfry

19:26:47 kakobrekla: phf it may not be delusional but the idea of hitler showing himself for 18 btc bitbet tx is ...

19:27:00 nubbins`: ^

19:27:20 asciilifeform: i happen to think that the circle of specialists mp relies on in meatspace, and whose conclusions he automatically privileges over, e.g., mine, have failed him catastrophically in that particular case.

19:27:27 nubbins`: glass nuke launcher

19:27:58 kakobrekla: the tin foils was not thick enough

19:28:10 nubbins`: i happen to think the circle of specialists mp relies on in meatspace consists of hanbot and a few other wankish fools who know no better

19:28:37 asciilifeform: nubbins`: hanbot , in your view, derived the correct db locks constant ?

19:29:15 nubbins`: ?

19:29:22 asciilifeform: nubbins`: ah you were not here for this

19:29:43 kakobrekla: afaik it wasnt her

19:29:50 phf: kakobrekla: so we're just drawing a line at how much crazy is crazy then

19:29:55 nubbins`: phf +!

19:29:58 nubbins`: er +1

19:30:00 nubbins`: w/e

19:30:23 kakobrekla: phf you can claim crazy as long as you pay for it. you cant claim crazy and make others pay for it.

19:30:43 nubbins`: ^

19:30:46 kakobrekla: that is why i was fine with mp publishing his interpretation of events when he asked.

19:30:48 phf: right, so crazy is not crazy until it hits your personal pocket

19:30:55 phf: talk about principled

19:31:09 kakobrekla: well yeah he can blow his btc however he likes, who am i to say?

19:31:20 asciilifeform: nubbins`: there was an occasion where trb wedged, and mp reluctantly opened his treasure chest and found correct db locks constant from mbp, and shared.

19:31:42 nubbins`: link to logz?

19:31:55 kakobrekla: but he can not go hallucinating someone elses btc away - at least not without consequences

19:32:29 phf: kakobrekla: there was a lot of effort built on crazy, i mean, asciilifeform does unpaid work, and periodically loses his shit over it. the advise at the time was not as i recall "doing this mp shit is crazy" it was "get a webdev job so you can do more tmsr work"

19:33:09 asciilifeform: nubbins`: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-August/000139.html

19:33:11 assbot: [BTC-dev] (CORRECTED) Bullet in the Forehead for the BDB Locks Idiocy ... ( http://bit.ly/1JWNo0i )

19:33:44 davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2016#1440872 <<< working on it, will post an update in the next coupla days

19:33:44 assbot: Logged on 28-03-2016 17:11:21; pennybeer: Hi all. Just popping in to see how the receivership is going

19:33:45 asciilifeform: phf: yeah that was the closest i've came to going away permanently

19:33:47 kakobrekla: phf and i should go "ascii stop doing free shit because im in charge of your life" ?

19:34:13 nubbins`: asciilifeform ok, so back in 2012 someone actually bothered to check bdb default settings and change some values

19:34:19 nubbins`: why derail w/ this?

19:34:24 PeterL: I think people have often told alf to stop doing so much free shit

19:34:37 nubbins`: davout thrilling!

19:34:50 nubbins`: any expressions of interest for the assets?

19:34:54 PeterL: and the webdev thing was a suggestion because he was out of $job and looking for a new one anyway

19:34:55 davout: isn't it

19:34:59 kakobrekla: i may be wrong here but iirc i unearthed up that db setting from

19:35:03 kakobrekla: some dark alley

19:35:16 davout: nubbins`: nah, not as of today

19:35:23 phf: kakobrekla: no, you should go "i think this mp shit is hurting you, and i think mp is crazy, so maybe you should do something else" and give that as _advice_ since you're respected here and by ascii

19:36:08 nubbins`: kakobrekla it wouldn't be the first time mp imagined something being his idea

19:36:27 phf: i'm just saying there was plenty of opportunities to speak up against crazy in the past, and i saw plenty of crazy and i just thought everyone else took it in strides, as part of the game. apparently not!

19:36:35 asciilifeform: nubbins`: my point was not that it was his idea, but precisely that it ~wasn't~, he retains meatspace folks who work for him.

19:37:48 asciilifeform: as for 'free shit',

19:38:10 asciilifeform: i work 'for mp' because moscow and pyongyang are full of idiots and ain't hiring the likes of me

19:38:40 asciilifeform: fact - there isn't a 'free world' outside of mircea's 'crazy'.

19:38:54 PeterL: and we do appreciate the work you do, asciilifeform

19:39:09 asciilifeform: PeterL: but do you know WHY i do it ?

19:39:42 PeterL: I think so?

19:40:00 kakobrekla: phf maybe i should have said something earlier. i actually believe i hint at that at various events but was overrun. in reality a single snowflake bends the leaf and here we are.

19:40:08 kakobrekla: hinted*

19:42:00 asciilifeform: PeterL: i do it because i want to live to see the nomenklatura, from george soros and buffet to the lowest google queermayo buffoon, impaled publicly

19:42:09 asciilifeform: so far it is a game of pascal's wager

19:42:23 asciilifeform: only fella i know who has a chance in ten thousand of making it happen, is mp.

19:42:41 punkman: hanbot's "Shall be delivered" goes well with mp's "signed X transactions but I only meant one"

19:43:16 davout: !up pennybeer

19:43:38 nubbins`: !up diana_coman

19:43:58 pennybeer: Does the value of the assets even matter much? You have 750 btc to redistribute. That should cover ~90% bets owing and pending bets refunded

19:44:31 phf: pennybeer: this point you're making has been discussed to death

19:44:44 nubbins`: shrug

19:44:50 nubbins`: i'd pay a few bux for the domain

19:45:00 nubbins`: altho i guess i'm not allowed to own it

19:45:17 asciilifeform: nubbins`: you can bid at the auction like anybody else, no ?

19:45:20 pennybeer: I've seen nothing since this post: http://qntra.net/2016/03/bitbet-receiver-hired/

19:45:22 assbot: BitBet Receiver Hired | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1ohuEVB )

19:45:28 phf: pennybeer: in the logs

19:45:33 punkman: kakobrekla: would you be interested in running bbet tech for new owner?

19:45:37 PeterL: has auction been announced?

19:45:37 nubbins`: asciilifeform .us tld ownership restrictions i mean

19:45:53 nubbins`: why buy if they'll take it on me

19:45:53 asciilifeform: nubbins`: i dun think kakobrekla ever set foot in usa

19:46:02 nubbins`: asciilifeform domain was reg'd in chetty's name

19:46:36 phf: pennybeer: that position is inconsistent with much discussed and verbalized ideas about how bitcoin corporations are supposed to run. under question is not "~~~90%" but how to make accounting work to a satoshi at the end of the whole thing

19:47:08 phf: pennybeer: obviously in a pinch one could roll a dice and go "well, ya get something, ya get nothin'", but i hope we're not there yet

19:47:10 nubbins`: to a satoshi, give or take 1.7x bn of them

19:47:35 phf: nubbins`: you're insulting davout as a receiver at the moment

19:48:17 nubbins`: no i'm not

19:48:21 nubbins`: don't put insults in my mouth

19:48:32 davout: pennybeer: i've said i would implement the process in a certain way, which i will. at this point i'm at the "audit all the things" step. once done i will report about it, and then I can move on to the next step

19:48:47 pennybeer: ok thanks!

19:48:53 pennybeer: keep up the good work

19:48:59 davout: thank you!

19:49:23 PeterL: davout will you resolve bets or just refund everything?

19:49:41 phf: nubbins`: i mean that the question is out of mp's hands, for better or for worse, mostly everyone here has made their decisions about what the receivership implies, but ~now~ the "to bitcent" is in davout's hands

19:50:07 nubbins`: phf agreed. i found your earlier statement unclear

19:50:14 nubbins`: consider my droll wit suitably modified

20:18:43 davout: !up pennybeer

20:18:58 davout: PeterL: what can be resolved will be resolved

20:23:04 nubbins`: !up molz

20:23:34 molz: nubbins`, hi, thank you

20:23:40 nubbins`: np

20:25:22 kakobrekla: punkman maybe. the thing is that the code alone is probably near useless to somebody who didnt write it.

20:40:39 pennybeer: @PeterL i believe bets that have been resolved already will be paid out, and the rest of the pending bets will be refunded

20:42:17 PeterL: kakobrekla that is not the thing to say to get the most money at auction!

20:49:45 PeterL: !up pennybeer

20:52:35 nubbins`: !gettrust assbot aegis

20:52:35 assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user aegis: Level 1: 0, Level 2: -1 via 1 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=aegis | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/aegis/

20:52:58 nubbins`: !rate aegis 2 speak

20:52:58 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/97a307f7fa150a31

20:53:32 nubbins`: !v assbot:nubbins`.rate.aegis.2:893016432aca45c554714c603b5d0480dc3eace20c57257f3377ec89823b70eb

20:53:33 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 2 for aegis with note: speak

20:53:38 nubbins`: !gettrust assbot aegis

20:53:38 assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user aegis: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 2 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=aegis | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/aegis/

20:53:52 nubbins`: o rite

20:54:04 nubbins`: well i guess my 2 should be a 1 then

20:54:27 nubbins`: !v assbot:nubbins`.rate.aegis.1:9f8766d68409aa206c88767719e55d231a5c6036038fa28cddd87aa2d9b5e61b

20:54:28 assbot: Successfully updated the rating for aegis from 2 to 1 with note: speak

20:54:36 nubbins`: anyway, you're still not quite there

20:54:38 nubbins`: !up aegis

20:55:07 aegis: ty nubbins`

20:55:08 nubbins`: kakobrekla i nominate danielpbarron mircea_popescu and hanbot be purged from assbot L1

20:55:32 nubbins`: np

21:01:34 jurov: nubbins` eh calm down

21:05:37 aegis: !rate nubbins` 1 Long time in the scene. Never any problems. Calls it like he sees it.

21:05:37 assbot: Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: CA8A03F12AB5869ECDA860564C6F67D47AD792DF. This may take a few moments.

21:05:37 assbot: Key 7AD792DF / "aegis" successfully imported.

21:05:37 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9c3ccc055ce1bc12

21:05:54 jurov: ruling people out is fun, but not before we have some understanding what we're doing

21:06:53 aegis: !v assbot:aegis.rate.nubbins`.1:0907fc7dc425a51992206701f245e0a5305c4b96a17a72623819129db8e384e7

21:06:53 assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for nubbins` with note: Long time in the scene. Never any problems. Calls it like he sees it.

21:14:46 asciilifeform: !gettrust aegis

21:14:47 assbot: Trust relationship from user asciilifeform to user aegis: Level 1: 0, Level 2: -1 via 2 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=asciilifeform&to=aegis | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/aegis/

21:59:31 asciilifeform: who is aegis ?

22:00:27 kakobrekla: hm, the name sounds familiar.

22:11:00 nubbins`: jurov true!

22:30:00 nubbins`: omg davout owned instawallet?

22:30:04 nubbins`: O.O

22:34:17 ben_vulpes: this was news?

22:36:36 nubbins`: to me

22:37:33 BingoBoingo: He bought Instawallet and it went to shit with the search engine indexing problem

22:38:10 nubbins`: i recall that shit show, yeah

22:58:58 diana_coman: phf kakobrekla asciilifeform fwiw I have a different interpretation of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2016#1441202, namely http://www.dianacoman.com/2016/03/28/when-the-messenger-shoots-back/

22:58:58 assbot: Logged on 28-03-2016 19:14:42; kakobrekla: phf by his own admission hi call was 'masochistic' (but later billed sadistically)

22:59:00 assbot: When the Messenger Shoots Back in Ossasepia ... ( http://bit.ly/21PXE3Q )

23:17:26 kakobrekla: diana_coman in my view the miner collusion are hallucinations and the story can be easily explained by inconsistent relay policies and mp making a series of mistakes. also see occams razor.

23:20:34 diana_coman: kakobrekla, were those inconsistent relay policies and their potential effect on BitBet known before this incident?

23:22:28 kakobrekla: well anyone with a half a neuron can figure out that they are not consistent given the sheer amount of different bitcoin clients in the network and that once you sign a transaction and make it public! it may come back to bite you at any time

23:23:45 kakobrekla: recently i was testing some things and somehow managed to send out a 0 fee tx myself. it was not visible anywhere for 18+ days before it suddenly appeared in a block.

23:24:10 kakobrekla: how do you say - mega-un-surprise, is it?

23:25:16 diana_coman: so you say that the whole incident basically really did not bring anything new at all to BitBet? what I struggle with, in this scenario is : why wasn't any measure taken against this before, if it was known already as you asy

23:25:19 diana_coman: say*

23:26:03 kakobrekla: because i assumed mp knew what he was doing

23:27:24 kakobrekla: also it has been proven that he was hard to question

23:29:31 diana_coman: you mean hard to question in general or on the specific details of this (I mean specifically the intelligence claimed to support the miner cartel)

23:31:48 kakobrekla: generally

23:32:38 kakobrekla: for example, he wouldnt tell even me if there is any contingency for bbet funds in case a bus hits him or whatever.

23:39:29 kakobrekla: and to point out it was not even about the 18 btc. the sum wont make me any richer or any poorer. its about principle. you just can not go hallucinating away 18 btc and bill the company. this breaks all the good incentives and you can have a bitcoin company operating this way, where its best for me to lose hot wallet weekly due to, as jurov put it, 'cost of running code on c machines'.

23:39:50 kakobrekla: cant have*

23:41:44 diana_coman: kakobrekla, if I thought he hallucinated away x btc as you say (no matter the amount), I'd certainly get out of it, that's not the issue here in any way

23:43:12 diana_coman: it's even before that: if you doubt his competence, even before any loss, it's still a full stop to the whole venture, as I can't see how that would work

23:43:30 kakobrekla: and if he went 'i totally fucked this up' i would have considered of signing the thing under bitbet bills. but approving this would mean he may as well go 'ufo stole all the bbet funds' and it would be implied this is normal.

23:44:54 diana_coman: what I can't somehow see is a. how/why would this make sense all of a sudden b. what is exactly his gain out of this in any outcome (so even assuming you would have signed the statement and bitbet would still go on)

23:45:02 asciilifeform: diana_coman: your blog has broken comment box

23:45:05 kakobrekla: diana_coman there were other cases where he fucked up but he paid for it because he understood it was his liability. just as if i nuke the bitbet server i do not expect for him to help it set back up.

23:45:11 asciilifeform: diana_coman: i keep showing up as 'anon'

23:45:30 kakobrekla: however now, the element went bad - hence out of spec.

23:45:32 diana_coman: yes asciilifeform , it just broke now, at the best possible moment, I was just digging through it to find what did wp do now :(

23:48:19 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-03-2016#1441401 << i can readily see, actually, what mircea_popescu gained.

23:48:19 assbot: Logged on 28-03-2016 23:44:54; diana_coman: what I can't somehow see is a. how/why would this make sense all of a sudden b. what is exactly his gain out of this in any outcome (so even assuming you would have signed the statement and bitbet would still go on)

23:48:25 asciilifeform: !s evaporative cooling

23:48:26 assbot: 5 results for 'evaporative cooling' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=evaporative+cooling

23:48:56 diana_coman: kakobrekla, that's quite my point: he has a history of paying for what he fucks up and owning up to it so ...why now?

23:49:21 kakobrekla: possibly compromised

23:49:33 asciilifeform: diana_coman: wanted to learn who the 'true believerz' were ?

23:49:47 *: kakobrekla never a believer

23:50:14 *: diana_coman is reading to refresh the evaporative cooling concept

23:50:25 kakobrekla: i find the term, derogatory.

23:50:30 phf: asciilifeform: chinese version of "emperor with no clothes"

23:50:52 asciilifeform: phf: aha, the one where the emperor correctly beheads the 'he's naked!111' folks.

23:52:16 kakobrekla: (i generally have a problem with religious people i see some strange resemblance here)

23:52:47 asciilifeform: ty diana_coman - http://www.dianacoman.com/2016/03/28/when-the-messenger-shoots-back/#comment-246

23:52:49 assbot: When the Messenger Shoots Back in Ossasepia ... ( http://bit.ly/1UYkLsL )

23:53:19 ben_vulpes: heh the truffles quote is rather choice

23:54:15 kakobrekla: > What I think the message may have been: “If you’re sending zerofee tx, you can expect anything to happen. The mempool mechanics is very spurious.” < actually the zerofee is just cherry on top

23:54:21 diana_coman: hm, asciilifeform if I get it right, you consider that he staged the whole thing precisely to obtain a split and make it clear who is who?

23:54:27 kakobrekla: in any case you should expect for anything to happen

23:54:43 asciilifeform: diana_coman: quite possibly.

23:54:50 asciilifeform: it is something ~i~ would have done long ago, in his place

23:54:54 asciilifeform: but i can't speak for him

23:55:32 phf: kakobrekla: there's enough educated people to draw parallels to various movements and phenomena. the parallels provide apropos humorous terminology, but i don't think those parallels should be seen at face value otherwise.

23:55:58 diana_coman: I readily admit anything is possible but I am quite specifically avoiding this "in his place" since it never ever really holds - unless you can also be him

23:56:23 asciilifeform: diana_coman: i meant simply that it is imho a very productive and logical thing for a mircea_popescu to do

23:57:06 asciilifeform: diana_coman: in my view, the reactor test had two specific and distinct phases - the doublespend, and the aftermath

23:57:17 asciilifeform: each a reactor test in its own right.

23:58:03 kakobrekla: i dont this this is the case at all - but we shouldnt let any crisis go to waste, thats for sure.

23:58:17 kakobrekla: s/this/think

23:58:23 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: why exactly not? the available data fits.

23:58:25 diana_coman: I can see the interpretation you suggest asciilifeform

23:58:53 kakobrekla: asciilifeform if 'fits' is he criteria why not stick head in toilet?

23:59:05 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: 'cause it dun fit.

23:59:19 kakobrekla: fits here!

23:59:30 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: but more generally, are you familiar with initiation rites in organizations of 'men of action' ?

23:59:43 asciilifeform: the kind where you gotta kill and eat a stranger, and the like.

23:59:45 asciilifeform: same idea.