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Transcript for 28-06-2015, 1130 lines:

00:24:05 asciilifeform: http://a4lg.com/memo/2014-12-14/seccon-2014-online-quals-crypto400.html << student exercise

00:24:07 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GHU4hY )

00:24:13 asciilifeform: (bad rsa key)

00:24:58 *: trinque hunkers down for more clim hacking

00:25:02 trinque: most fun I've had in years

00:25:07 trinque: re: writing code

00:25:18 asciilifeform: trinque: last time i played with clim under sbcl it was dog-slow

00:25:35 trinque: haven't torqued it hard enough to know yet

00:25:44 trinque: but the clarity

00:25:46 asciilifeform: i mean, even for 'hello world'

00:25:50 trinque: ah, no it's doing fine there

00:26:04 asciilifeform: trinque must be using a recent cpu..

00:26:17 trinque: lol yeah, doing fine with 3+ ghz and 8 cores

00:29:29 *: trinque solemnly swears not to write his own linux distro with clim-based DE in a year

00:30:01 *: trinque chants "do not give in to astonishment" as he fires up the clim listener

00:40:51 mircea_popescu: actually it's quite possible the eventual b-a distribution is a sort of lisp "java machine"

00:40:55 mircea_popescu: ie, what google's trying to do.

00:41:47 mircea_popescu: in other news, women and incentives in tech. http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6uukgUutx1rayp8lo1_1280.jpg

00:41:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1JqDolh )

00:41:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wasted years on this. destructive dead end, because ibm pc is a turd

00:41:57 asciilifeform: i.e. the hardware can't be meaningfully abstracted over.

00:42:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so is seeking true love.

00:42:30 trinque: can't build a VM for some syslisp which is then implemented later as hardware?

00:42:38 asciilifeform: who doesn't believe me (and why should?) can go waste years himself. like the 'movitz' folks did

00:43:00 mircea_popescu: nah, universal lisp bytecode!

00:43:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: straight to sbcl, where this is already a thing. plain computation works fine. it's when you get to i/o that you die

00:43:37 mircea_popescu: universal io !

00:43:47 asciilifeform: 'lisp doesn't need i/o.' --my brother

00:44:04 mircea_popescu: if a lisp lisps in a ioless forest, has it still lisped ?

00:44:31 asciilifeform: (in point of fact, it doesn't even need an ALU... church numerals!!)

00:47:07 trinque: I'm just glad I figured out I needed to relearn programming at 28 rather than 58

00:49:30 trinque: asciilifeform: how should IO look? what to read?

00:49:52 asciilifeform: trinque: i/o in the very basic sense of talking to the framebuffer, nic, interrupt controller

00:50:02 asciilifeform: disk

00:50:23 asciilifeform: cpu cores

00:50:33 asciilifeform: (well, the smp control gizmo)

00:50:36 asciilifeform: etc.

00:52:11 trinque: right, so on linux I could write some bits to /dev/fb0 ; what might I go read about regarding how that's done on... would genera be a good example?

00:52:20 asciilifeform: trinque: there are no examples.

00:52:24 trinque: ah ok

00:52:51 asciilifeform: trinque: have you read my 'bedrock' article ?

00:53:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72809 @ 0.00039094 = 28.464 BTC [-] {4}

00:53:05 asciilifeform: trinque: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55

00:53:07 assbot: Loper OS » You have made your bedrock, now lie in it. ... ( http://bit.ly/1GHYPYN )

00:54:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13841 @ 0.00038678 = 5.3534 BTC [-]

00:54:12 trinque: asciilifeform: yes I have, and grok the gist, I think

00:54:31 trinque: what would network IO look like if done on a system with proper bedrock abstractions from your view?

00:54:57 trinque: !up gabriel_laddel

00:55:05 gabriel_laddel: ty

00:55:10 trinque: np, and hello

00:55:23 gabriel_laddel: so, for instance, think of the terminal you are now typing into. on a true dataflow box, it would simply be the end of a circuit (screen memory) directly linked to a circuit with the keyboard matrix decoder on the other end of it. you thus also lose the concept of ‘interrupts’ or ‘processes’. a dataflow box doesn’t need a scheduler, or an interrupt

00:55:23 gabriel_laddel: controller.

00:55:29 gabriel_laddel: -- http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1361

00:55:30 assbot: Loper OS » The Alert Reader. ... ( http://bit.ly/1GHZ9qt )

00:55:33 asciilifeform: trinque: for this one, symbolics lisp is not a bad example. the key being that ~nothing can happen~ short of the nic catching fire that would land you on any level of abstraction below lisp

00:55:54 asciilifeform: e.g., if a malformed packet appears, or connection breaks at any point in the process, or, or.

00:56:32 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel has it. but in that article i was speaking of 'proper computer', not lispm.

00:56:35 trinque: gabriel_laddel: end of a circuit, so "circuit" is bedrock, or composed thereof?

00:57:18 asciilifeform: trinque: 'bedrock' for our purposes is that which if it malfunctions you physically throw it out.

00:57:20 *: trinque reads through p=1361

00:58:11 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: Right. I should have noted that this is an example of what "sane I/O" might look like.

00:58:39 trinque: what is the circuit? how do I write code which reads the current state of the terminal?

00:58:52 trinque: how do I shove bits into it?

00:58:59 asciilifeform: it is the only sane i/o. what we have now is chicken's cloaka, which pisses, shits, fucks, and lays eggs via same orifice (why not also eat with it?)

00:59:18 trinque: is there some data structure manifested in the lisp system which represents the state of the thing?

00:59:20 asciilifeform: trinque: code on dataflow processor controls switching matrix.

00:59:31 asciilifeform: how to represent it is up to the operator

00:59:46 asciilifeform: ultimately it is what your schoolteacher called an 'adjacency matrix.'

01:00:15 trinque: I could declare that the terminal circuit is now connected to (among other things) my circuit which logs terminal stuff?

01:00:22 trinque: and this declaration is...

01:00:29 asciilifeform: these presently exist, you can go to store and buy. called fpga.

01:00:30 trinque: a data structure somewhere read by the switching matrix?

01:00:38 asciilifeform: trinque: typically an ordinary sram

01:00:41 mircea_popescu: it does technicaly eat with it

01:01:31 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: think of it, traditional cpu ~is~ cloaka, where you pgp with the same barrel shifter and adder that you play tetris and read lolcatz with

01:02:05 asciilifeform: this is not the only way to build a computer.

01:02:16 asciilifeform: in extreme poverty of the 1950s - yes, it makes sense

01:02:25 asciilifeform: barely made sense in '80s

01:03:12 asciilifeform: (folks carrying around multiple pc notwithstanding)

01:03:41 asciilifeform: think of why msdos was a jewel - machine did ~one fucking thing~ at a time

01:04:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah. it DOES eat with it.

01:04:17 asciilifeform: approach has limitations, there are asynchronous things in the world (e.g., nic, disks)

01:04:23 trinque: hm, so is there some circuit which is responsible for the adjacency of other circuits?

01:04:25 asciilifeform: so you have multiple machines.

01:04:28 asciilifeform: like in your head

01:04:33 trinque: is this a distributed thing, whereby one circuit requests access to another?

01:04:49 asciilifeform: trinque: when you plant your arse in your chair, does arse 'request access to the chair' ?)

01:04:55 mircea_popescu: iut's not clear why disk would be async

01:05:02 trinque: asciilifeform: no, but sometimes there's a cat in it!

01:05:04 mircea_popescu: for that matter, disk is moving to be ram. and ram is sync.

01:05:16 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because you ask it for block b and some unknown time later it says 'here is block b'

01:05:22 trinque: ah!

01:05:25 mircea_popescu: no obvious need for this.

01:05:35 mircea_popescu: it can say "and this is block b perpetually anyway

01:05:51 asciilifeform: for so long as you have caches, you have locality

01:06:08 asciilifeform: which is to say, asking for b+1 will almost always be faster than b+100000

01:06:18 trinque: asciilifeform: so is it the synchronized nature of "modern" IO that is braindamaged?

01:06:23 trinque: I can see that point readily

01:06:41 trinque: I said this to ben_vulpes yesterday about HTTP request/response cycles

01:06:51 asciilifeform: trinque: the whole concept of having von neumann's bottleneck, where you can't do anything at all on the machine without waiting your turn for the little airline latrine of alu, mmu, etc. is asinine

01:06:53 mircea_popescu: refresh me. what in ulimit discusses the i/o ?

01:07:39 trinque: asciilifeform: so this circuit expresses a desire for the answer to some question, and some other circuit may or may not satisfy it

01:07:50 gabriel_laddel: loper-os-reader: I always sort of thought that about CPU designs in general. whilst software designers say “how many cycles is this going to take?”, a hardware designer knows how many cycles something is going to take on a chip: one. or else

01:07:50 gabriel_laddel: stas: dataflow never caught on because you absolutely need dedicated hardware. if you want real efficiency, you can’t even use standard RAM. so it gets dismissed as nuttery, on the rare occasions it comes up.

01:08:00 asciilifeform: trinque: when you plug a lamp into mains socket, does it 'express desire to conduct' ?

01:08:01 mircea_popescu: is it -i (pending signals) ?

01:08:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what system are you on

01:08:17 trinque: asciilifeform: no, but water doesn't ever come out of the socket

01:08:23 mircea_popescu: centos

01:08:27 trinque: the routing is what I'm not clear on

01:08:42 trinque: who says this guy wants to know some facts and not others

01:09:27 asciilifeform: trinque: move your abstraction level down to where the question makes sense

01:09:42 ben_vulpes: o hai gabriel_laddel!

01:09:43 asciilifeform: !s muller gate

01:09:44 assbot: 6 results for 'muller gate' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=muller+gate

01:09:55 gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: hey!

01:10:09 ben_vulpes: the boys have been talking shit about your lispos

01:10:36 ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel: the boys have been talking shit about your lispos

01:11:09 ben_vulpes: !up ga

01:11:13 ben_vulpes: !up gabriel_laddel

01:11:27 ben_vulpes: !up gavinadresen

01:11:31 gabriel_laddel: thanks. fucking useless AT&T connection

01:11:33 asciilifeform: trinque: http://www.fpga4fun.com/FPGAinfo2.html << intro to state of art re: programmable logic

01:11:34 assbot: fpga4fun.com - How FPGAs work ... ( http://bit.ly/1eR3CR8 )

01:11:48 gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: I saw that in the logs earlier. It doesn't really matter - they don't have any other options.

01:12:02 gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: they'll use what's there.

01:12:51 trinque: asciilifeform: ty

01:13:02 trinque: I'll read that and improve my question

01:13:07 ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel: 'they' << your customers?

01:13:09 asciilifeform: trinque: i'd even argue that fpga is a mis-step historically, and you'd want to start with traditional 'gal' (as pictured here, http://design.iconnect007.media/index.php/article/31256/maxed-out-programmable-logic-part-deux/31259/?skin=design )

01:13:11 assbot: iconnect007 :: Article ... ( http://bit.ly/1eR3NMa )

01:13:42 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: the last time i met folks who 'they'll use what's there', they were running... winxp

01:13:57 gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: I was referring to #b-a members actually. I don't have any customers yet, as Masamune is horribly incomplete.

01:14:25 *: ben_vulpes does not have a horse in this race

01:14:26 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24100 @ 0.00038665 = 9.3183 BTC [-] {2}

01:15:04 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: does your sbcl userland for linux come with a physical box where i get guarantee that the, e.g., video board, works ?

01:15:39 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: that is the idea - but currently - no.

01:15:47 trinque: given that I'm already using an absurd compromise (stumpwm+emacs) I'd take something which measurably improves what I'm doing there already

01:16:05 *: asciilifeform gave a good share of gabriel_laddel's material a fair, imho, reading, and still isn't entirely grasping how the proposed widget wins over classical linux box with sbcl on it

01:16:22 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: maxima, conkeror, CLIM as defaults

01:16:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42500 @ 0.00038968 = 16.5614 BTC [+]

01:16:32 asciilifeform: why would i be concerned with defaults ?

01:16:36 gabriel_laddel: also, scaffolding for e.g., Pete's school

01:16:48 *: ben_vulpes to bar

01:16:54 gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: because although you already know of these things, many people do not.

01:17:09 asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel aims to bring lisps to 'most people' ?!

01:17:12 *: asciilifeform head-desks

01:17:15 gabriel_laddel: heh, no

01:17:19 *: ben_vulpes resents leaving at top of computers + school conversation branch

01:17:20 gabriel_laddel: just for people in #b-a

01:18:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on my system, 'ulimit' only sets max file size...

01:18:17 mircea_popescu: i have nfi what all this shit does.

01:18:17 asciilifeform: somebody buy poor fella a new modem

01:35:03 ben_vulpes: i am interested in things like 'literate programming' in the context of mathematical education, essay writing etc

01:35:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes read knuth's work on subj ?

01:35:31 ben_vulpes: not yet!

01:40:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: absolute best example of 'literate programming' i know of is 'jonesforth' >> https://github.com/AlexandreAbreu/jonesforth/blob/master/jonesforth.S and https://github.com/AlexandreAbreu/jonesforth/blob/master/jonesforth.f

01:40:23 assbot: jonesforth/jonesforth.S at master · AlexandreAbreu/jonesforth · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1dpxFNT )

01:40:25 assbot: jonesforth/jonesforth.f at master · AlexandreAbreu/jonesforth · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1dpxFO3 )

01:40:30 asciilifeform: (not originally on shithub but only surviving copy)

02:03:05 asciilifeform: in other news, i've a static therealbitcoin.

02:03:36 ben_vulpes: no wai

02:03:38 asciilifeform: aha.

02:04:04 asciilifeform: readelf -d bitcoind

02:04:04 asciilifeform: There is no dynamic section in this file.

02:04:58 ben_vulpes: i wonder how long it'll take to duplicate the feat.

02:05:11 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'm about to zip up the whole build tree so folks can test quickly

02:09:01 asciilifeform: one final test before i post it...

02:26:59 asciilifeform: achtung, panzers!

02:27:04 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al:

02:27:05 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-June/000102.html

02:27:06 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1LCjUdN )

02:27:19 asciilifeform: '(EXPERIMENTAL) Static Builder for TheRealBitcoin.'

02:27:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9850 @ 0.00040015 = 3.9415 BTC [+]

02:28:56 asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/3AKNWFV.txt << process map for this experiment

02:28:57 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1LCjXGo )

02:29:02 asciilifeform: note that it is still using conventional glibc

02:29:24 decimation: asciilifeform: did you try ulibc

02:29:25 asciilifeform: (see the gconv-modules turd? fucking lamers)

02:29:41 asciilifeform: decimation: not yet. but i expect to hit the same wall as mod6

02:29:46 decimation: yeah.

02:29:54 asciilifeform: first trying to bring it all to where we originally wanted it

02:29:57 decimation: it's possible some combination of gcc/ulibc version will work

02:30:01 asciilifeform: and it appears that i did this.

02:30:29 decimation: asciilifeform: so no dns?

02:30:30 asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu asks, this turd will be deployed to dulap (s.nsa box)

02:30:32 asciilifeform: no dns.

02:31:03 asciilifeform: i'd prefer to get comments / replications of this experiment first

02:31:23 decimation: asciilifeform: is this for the pogo?

02:31:28 asciilifeform: no

02:31:33 asciilifeform: this is an amd64 build.

02:31:40 asciilifeform: i suppose i ought to have specified this in the readme

02:31:49 asciilifeform: but it ought to be clear from reading the build script

02:31:58 asciilifeform: this build is intended for ibmpc

02:33:50 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu your node is dead ?

02:33:51 gribble: The operation succeeded.

02:33:53 asciilifeform: wtf.

02:34:06 asciilifeform: (i'm getting a 'connection refused')

02:34:12 *: mircea_popescu looks into this.

02:34:17 mircea_popescu: did you ever test it ?

02:34:20 asciilifeform: just now.

02:34:24 asciilifeform: was gonna milk it

02:34:48 asciilifeform: i've been licking my teeth for this milking for ages

02:35:18 mircea_popescu: lol. apparently you're not the only one.

02:35:21 asciilifeform: stas@humanoid ~ $ telnet 8333

02:35:21 asciilifeform: Trying

02:35:21 asciilifeform: telnet: connect to address Connection refused

02:35:37 mircea_popescu: anyway. give it an hour.

02:35:50 mircea_popescu: !up aseriousgogetta

02:35:53 aseriousgogetta: ty

02:36:10 mircea_popescu: aha. who're you ?

02:36:10 aseriousgogetta: what is thebitcoin.foundation?? i just found it.

02:36:21 mircea_popescu: the foundation directing bitcoin development etc.

02:36:23 aseriousgogetta: im a crypto-enthusiast

02:37:24 aseriousgogetta: why 0.5.3?

02:37:51 decimation: what is your favorite public key algo?

02:38:56 aseriousgogetta: favorite.. sha256d

02:39:10 decimation: aite

02:40:21 aseriousgogetta: my current work is on a personal project; setting up foundation. what is teh work in here?

02:40:44 mircea_popescu: !s 0.5.3

02:40:45 assbot: 204 results for '0.5.3' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=0.5.3

02:40:45 mircea_popescu: this has been discussed in teh logs.

02:40:47 ben_vulpes: decrufting etc.

02:41:22 mircea_popescu: that didn't parse.

02:41:38 aseriousgogetta: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-06-2015#1178572

02:41:38 assbot: Logged on 27-06-2015 02:16:03; mircea_popescu: ;;later tell ben_vulpes incidentally, were you explicitly setting -irc Find peers using internet relay chat (default: 0) flag ?

02:41:38 aseriousgogetta: ty

02:41:49 ben_vulpes: ah!

02:43:49 aseriousgogetta: hmm, so 0.10.2 talk is out teh window

02:44:04 aseriousgogetta: or scrypt-n?

02:45:20 asciilifeform: out teh window << no, in the latrine where they belong.

02:45:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22857 @ 0.00039374 = 8.9997 BTC [-]

02:46:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let me know if you were able to build my 'stator.' and if you think it makes sense to sweat over a uclibc build for ibmpc, where everything ~else~ is sitting on glibc...

02:47:49 asciilifeform: (though i'd like to shoot that 'gconv-modules.cache' and 'locale-archive' crud in the head...)

02:48:06 ben_vulpes: no, I simply ran the thing.

02:48:08 asciilifeform: (see http://dpaste.com/3AKNWFV.txt )

02:48:09 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEqYz3 )

02:48:13 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: l0l

02:48:15 asciilifeform: it ran ?

02:48:25 ben_vulpes: not your most recent, no

02:48:47 asciilifeform: what was ben_vulpes referring to then

02:48:52 ben_vulpes: hang on distracted.

02:50:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24500 @ 0.00039374 = 9.6466 BTC [-]

02:50:22 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-06-2015#1178089 << note that it isn't 'the foundation one' until ben_vulpes and mod6 say it is

02:50:22 assbot: Logged on 26-06-2015 19:46:42; mircea_popescu: it is not the foundation one, which i am going to compile and run once the instructions come out.

02:50:48 asciilifeform: but we have a buildable static(glibc) ibmpc build.

02:51:25 ben_vulpes: <aseriousgogetta> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-06-2015#1178572 << i am confus

02:51:25 assbot: Logged on 27-06-2015 02:16:03; mircea_popescu: ;;later tell ben_vulpes incidentally, were you explicitly setting -irc Find peers using internet relay chat (default: 0) flag ?

02:51:42 ben_vulpes: i did not use the -irc flag

02:51:49 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=27-06-2015#1178629

02:51:49 assbot: Logged on 27-06-2015 03:06:14; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-06-2015#1178572 << this is ~not~ in 0.5.3. it had only '-noirc', default off.

02:51:57 ben_vulpes: right.

02:52:11 asciilifeform: idk why aseriousgogetta linked it

02:52:14 ben_vulpes: me neither

02:52:24 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes nah, upon consideration that should have no effect.

02:52:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform try nao ?

02:52:25 ben_vulpes: ultraconfused, had to remember why i hadn't responded to the ;;later

02:52:35 ben_vulpes: (if i even had, etc)

02:53:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hangs after 'connected'

02:53:35 asciilifeform: anybody else?

02:54:10 asciilifeform: 'socket no message in first 60 seconds, 0 1'

02:54:55 *: ben_vulpes is drinking with trinqu, will be playing with blockchains later

02:55:54 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is your box getting hammered by bozos ?

02:57:30 ben_vulpes: !up Chicago

02:57:52 decimation: Chicago: are you a fan of crypto too?

02:58:07 asciilifeform: now what i can't remember is whether mod6 already had this orchestra working

02:58:12 asciilifeform: (with glibc+static)

02:58:20 decimation: I thought he had

02:58:23 decimation: but with dns

02:58:35 asciilifeform: afaik can't do dns at all with static glibc

02:58:38 asciilifeform: so no

02:58:52 asciilifeform: but possibly he had something like what i just posted, but it isn't on the ml.

02:58:54 decimation: I've seen it give linker warnings

02:59:02 decimation: didn't check to see if it was truely static

02:59:23 asciilifeform: mine also gives linker warning for 'what if you used gethostbyname'

02:59:30 decimation: yeah exactly

02:59:30 asciilifeform: -- except that we provably never do

02:59:34 asciilifeform: so fuck it

03:00:03 asciilifeform: gcc sucks at stripping deadcode, news at 11.

03:01:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5093 @ 0.00039374 = 2.0053 BTC [-]

03:01:41 decimation: also, nobody gives a fuck about supporting static linking, news at 11

03:01:51 asciilifeform: we knew, yes

03:02:15 decimation: "why link static when you could just accept my world of shit?"

03:04:20 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform kind-of.

03:04:20 scoopbot_revived: Women and incentives in tech http://fraudsters.com/2015/women-and-incentives-in-tech/

03:04:54 mircea_popescu: there's ~30 connected, ye'll have to insist.

03:05:30 asciilifeform: let me guess, the duplicates aren't up

03:05:47 asciilifeform: because 'split' br0ke

03:05:52 *: asciilifeform head-desks

03:06:02 mircea_popescu: doubt they'd be in a much better position.

03:07:45 asciilifeform: addrLocalHost = << anybody else getting this ?

03:11:55 asciilifeform: ah it's the retardation

03:12:00 asciilifeform: '// Proxies can't take incoming connections'

03:12:06 asciilifeform: working as written.

03:12:27 asciilifeform: that crap ~will~ have to be shot.

03:12:50 asciilifeform: as well as the ability to kick 'for misbehaviour' the ONLY PERMITTED CONNECT node

03:12:58 asciilifeform: who the FUCK thought of that.

03:13:34 asciilifeform: what's next, uterus gives her cramps so she ejects it ?

03:13:42 asciilifeform: across the room

03:14:16 Chicago: decimation, Sure I'm a crypto fan. :)

03:14:46 Chicago: Albeit more active in Wintertime when my rigs warm the house.

03:14:54 asciilifeform: '-connect=x.x.x.x' should ONLY affect OUTGOING connections

03:15:16 mircea_popescu: myeah

03:16:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wake me up when there's a box to sync from that i don't have to share with public urinators

03:16:33 mircea_popescu: how do you propose i implement this ?

03:16:42 asciilifeform: iptables ?

03:17:26 *: mircea_popescu goes to read the manual for iptables now, to find how you do "open port only for x ip"

03:17:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26700 @ 0.00038826 = 10.3665 BTC [-]

03:17:45 mircea_popescu: fully expecting he will have to install vanrish, uninstall alsa, recompile the kernel and fix glibc.

03:18:15 ben_vulpes: you're learning!

03:18:31 ben_vulpes: http://thebitcoin.foundation/doxygen/v0_5_3_1-wPatchesApplied/net_8cpp_source.html#l00653 << help what am i looking at

03:18:32 assbot: bitcoin v0.5.3.1-RELEASE + patches { http://thebitcoin.foundation/doxygen/v0_5_3_1-wPatchesApplied/v0531-wPatchesApplied.txt }: bitcoin/src/net.cpp Source File ... ( http://bit.ly/1LvmktA )

03:18:40 ben_vulpes: why are these critical sections lexically nested?

03:18:45 asciilifeform: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7423309/iptables-block-access-to-port-8000-except-from-ip-address >> change port, 8333..

03:18:46 assbot: firewall - iptables block access to port 8000 except from IP address - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1LvmkK8 )

03:18:49 ben_vulpes: are they also /programatically/ nested?

03:18:55 mircea_popescu: iptables -I INPUT -p tcp ! -s <permittedIP> -j DROP << is that it ?

03:19:34 trinque: mircea_popescu: because layering another turd atop iptables is surely what you want... I find ufw a nice tool to deal with trivial firewall setups

03:19:55 mircea_popescu: hm shouldn't port be specified somewhere

03:20:06 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: read linked turd

03:22:46 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform try nao

03:23:05 asciilifeform: 'connect() failed after select(): Connection refused'

03:23:15 mircea_popescu: actually uh... i see you ?

03:23:24 mircea_popescu: wtf/

03:24:25 *: asciilifeform sends warm hello to the nice folks at ft meade sending us tcp FIN's

03:24:58 mircea_popescu: nowai.

03:25:17 asciilifeform: socket no message in first 60 seconds, 0 1

03:25:27 mircea_popescu: eh nonsense.

03:25:45 mircea_popescu: it's been feeding 100s of peers like 1gb since yest or w/e.

03:25:50 asciilifeform: try from own box

03:26:48 mircea_popescu: it works from a multitude of boxen

03:27:07 *: asciilifeform about to test with conventional therealbitcoin

03:27:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes but did any of them '-connect'

03:27:42 trinque: asciilifeform: am I in the ballpark... having the vague notion that c-gates would be used to indicate whether the inputs necessary to perform a computation are available?

03:27:55 trinque: strikes me as "promises" to indicate the braindamaged programming environments I've sued

03:27:55 asciilifeform: trinque: c-gate only fires when all inputs are stable

03:27:56 trinque: *used

03:27:59 trinque: right

03:28:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they must have if they were moving bytes neh

03:28:09 asciilifeform: and if connected to other c-gates, same applies to them

03:28:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same thing when using conventional therealbitcoin

03:28:36 asciilifeform: (non-static)

03:28:55 trinque: seems to be the mechanism by which you call a bunch of asynchronous happenings one "thing", and can therefore act upon those "things" all being available

03:28:59 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and no, i was specifically talking about -connect=x.x.x.x' commandline argument

03:29:06 mircea_popescu: hm

03:29:21 mircea_popescu: i have nfi

03:30:07 *: asciilifeform boots up 'wireshark'

03:30:18 mircea_popescu: honestly, i don't think that iptables thing actually works.

03:30:26 mircea_popescu: because everyone trying to get in is now stuck on LAST ACK

03:30:34 mircea_popescu: which is not to my eye the expected behaviour.

03:32:05 decimation: iptables, like most of the kernel, is undocumented as fuck

03:32:10 asciilifeform: ~all~ i get is ACKs

03:32:31 *: asciilifeform is watching the packets in real time

03:32:45 mircea_popescu: i srsly see established conns.

03:33:01 asciilifeform: aha

03:33:03 asciilifeform: all i get is acks

03:33:10 asciilifeform: they're established, yes..

03:33:21 asciilifeform: but mine asks 'version' and hears '...'

03:34:35 mircea_popescu: hm.

03:34:59 decimation: I kinda get the impression that about 99% of iptables implementations out there are 'cut n paste' from what someone else posted on some website

03:35:50 mircea_popescu: certainly.

03:36:09 decimation: just like 99% of 'autoconf' use is cut n' paste

03:36:29 decimation: many eyes, etc

03:36:59 trinque: beatings for everyone that decides to introduce his own grammar to describe some problem space (firewalls one of many examples)

03:37:09 trinque: I know... I'll invent a syntax!

03:37:57 trinque: firewall configuration should be a function you write that the network stack runs on every packet

03:38:10 trinque: pf is marginally better, but that's about it

03:38:29 *: asciilifeform brb, food

03:39:02 trinque: the ufw thing at least gives you a semi-sane "ufw allow from to any port 8333"

03:39:27 decimation: yeah it's kinda a cluster

03:39:41 decimation: proprietary firewalls on cisco, etc aren't any better

03:39:51 trinque: and even ufw runs afoul of the "natural language" == easy

03:40:00 trinque: same mistake as SQL

03:41:51 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 187 @ 0.0130107 = 2.433 BTC [-] {2}

03:47:09 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tell you what, if you don't get to the bottom of it, ima make you an account on the server tomorrow, copy over the blockchain and you can compile your own or w/e.

03:49:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33406 @ 0.00039961 = 13.3494 BTC [+] {3}

03:54:36 scoopbot_revived: The art of punishment, translated. http://www.contravex.com/2015/06/27/the-art-of-punishment-translated/

04:03:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: -addnode works

04:03:24 asciilifeform: -connect --- no

04:04:04 asciilifeform: of course this is useless

04:04:27 asciilifeform: but shows that packets do move

04:05:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00039312 = 1.7297 BTC [-]

04:05:25 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it really ought not to be necessary to move blockchains with bare hands!

04:05:32 asciilifeform: that's what '-connect' is for

04:06:22 mod6: wow, just getting caught up here. have been afk for a while here today...

04:08:52 mod6: <+asciilifeform> now what i can't remember is whether mod6 already had this orchestra working <+asciilifeform> (with glibc+static) << v0.5.3.1-RELEASE basically is not true "static" build because of the gethostbyname() (DNS/libnss) calls in there. but was trying to build static bitcoind with uclibc/gcc on gentoo, was hitting a problem described here before. If you stripped out all of the DNS stuff and then did a build with gcc/glibc I'm thinkin

04:09:51 asciilifeform: mod6: msg got cut off

04:10:00 asciilifeform: at 'I'm thinking tha'

04:13:07 mod6: oh crap. ok sorry.

04:13:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, i know. what can i do over here.

04:13:26 mod6: If you stripped out all of the DNS stuff and then did a build with gcc/glibc I'm thinking that would get us where we want to be; sounds like you've done that!

04:13:59 mod6: my pos car got a flat today, so I limped it up to the station to get a new tire & walked the ~3 miles back.

04:14:21 asciilifeform: mod6: there is still http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1179772 and also figuring out wtf gives with '-connect'

04:14:21 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 02:47:49; asciilifeform: (though i'd like to shoot that 'gconv-modules.cache' and 'locale-archive' crud in the head...)

04:14:22 mod6: only to find out that both front springs are broken (lol) and that's what caused the tire to blow out.

04:14:26 asciilifeform: woah

04:14:28 asciilifeform: srsly?

04:14:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, ok if i move back to public access for this ?

04:14:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: go ahead

04:14:44 asciilifeform: i don't think overcrowding was the issue here

04:14:45 mod6: so now I've got this company to pay $185 and take it off my hands for scrap. hahah

04:14:47 mircea_popescu: got the command predigested for me ?

04:14:52 mircea_popescu: :D

04:16:14 asciilifeform: aaand hey

04:16:17 asciilifeform: it worked

04:16:25 mircea_popescu: huh ?

04:16:27 asciilifeform: wtf

04:16:31 asciilifeform: it's milking

04:16:34 mircea_popescu: lmao

04:16:38 mod6: you got connected to mp's blockchain milk? or -connect worked for you?

04:16:44 asciilifeform: what did mircea_popescu do ?

04:16:52 mircea_popescu: i played wiff girl.

04:16:59 asciilifeform: l0rl

04:17:11 mircea_popescu: game of yatze

04:17:37 mircea_popescu: anyway, ima keep it locked to your ip till tomorro then

04:17:46 asciilifeform: ty

04:17:49 mircea_popescu: if nothing else then because "don't fuck with shit that works"

04:17:55 mod6: oh, forgot to mention. the place wanted $500 to replace the springs. which is what prompted me to `mv posCar /dev/scrap`

04:17:58 *: asciilifeform still wondering wtf that was all about

04:18:10 mircea_popescu: very weird.

04:18:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27097 @ 0.00038778 = 10.5077 BTC [-] {3}

04:18:30 mod6: hmm

04:18:30 decimation: mod6: mechanics are famous for exploiting folks in what they think are vulnerable situations

04:18:49 mod6: yeah, they were pretty blown away when I just came and told 'em i was gonna scrap it.

04:19:11 *: trinque lawls at the naked folks biking past him

04:19:20 trinque: there are things to like about this communist land

04:19:34 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: now stuck again...

04:19:47 asciilifeform: after 43929

04:19:58 mod6: it's not processing blocks? or you're getting disconnected?

04:20:02 asciilifeform: stalled

04:20:30 mod6: hmm. give it 10 minutes to be sure... unless it's taking on those weird errors

04:20:38 asciilifeform: no errors

04:20:42 asciilifeform: just... stalls

04:21:00 asciilifeform: as in, nothing moving over the pipe

04:21:05 mod6: I remember from the block 168`001 issue (tx verification failed) that it would start dumping tons of errors if truly stuck.

04:21:12 mircea_popescu: eh listen, it's prolly getting too much attention

04:21:13 asciilifeform: again, not this

04:21:13 mod6: ah

04:21:17 mircea_popescu: let it be till tomorro, and we'll see what.

04:21:25 *: asciilifeform leaves the thing running

04:22:01 asciilifeform: picture so far is consistent with massive ddos, imho

04:24:08 mod6: asciilifeform: thanks a lot for your work tonight on the Static Builder. I'm a bit zapped to start getting into that tonight. Is it cool with you if I start testing it out tomorrow morning?

04:24:31 mod6: I can work on that and see where I can get with it; then I have to start working on the SoBA for June.

04:24:40 asciilifeform: mod6: no reason to hurry

04:24:57 mod6: Ok awesome.

04:25:24 asciilifeform: i'm about to sleep a bit myself

04:25:32 mod6: *nod*

04:25:41 mod6: thanks for all of your help :]

04:25:45 asciilifeform: np

04:25:56 asciilifeform: this exercise did not take very long but for some reason very tiring

04:26:06 mod6: yeah, i hear ya.

04:26:36 mod6: get some rest. tomorrow we can keep on.

04:30:32 ben_vulpes: sleep? when all these titties are biking by?

04:30:40 *: ben_vulpes hauls out lawn chair and bottle of wine

04:30:51 mod6: haha.

04:31:39 trinque: ben_vulpes: y'know no sooner do I even consider relocating to the land of capitalism and Portland's like "but dude! an army of titties on bikes!"

04:31:47 trinque: ok portland, you win this round

04:32:01 trinque: this I think has something to do with the political problems throughout time

04:32:19 trinque: maybe I should get more drunk and see if pete_dushenski ends up writing about it

04:36:29 asciilifeform: another burst of milkage

04:36:40 asciilifeform: to 44429. stall.

04:36:42 asciilifeform: l0l

04:36:45 mod6: nice. you think it's being packeted though?

04:36:54 asciilifeform: somebody's taking a king-sized shit in there

04:37:00 mod6: ah

04:37:23 asciilifeform: either that or somebody between here and there is 'losing' packets.

04:37:52 decimation: or there's a dysfunctional router somewhere

04:38:41 mod6: what does tr look like?

04:38:44 asciilifeform: decimation: not here

04:40:56 asciilifeform: woah

04:41:11 asciilifeform: some pretty serious strange

04:41:24 mod6: is it looping

04:42:36 asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/2WANN89.txt

04:42:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ebSUU4 )

04:42:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^

04:43:07 mod6: asciilifeform: mine looks exactly the same.

04:43:17 decimation: asciilifeform: seems like 'unthreading bitcoind' would be an admiral goal

04:43:24 asciilifeform: decimation: ?

04:44:16 decimation: cutting out the locking, threads ,etc

04:44:25 asciilifeform: tcp without threads?

04:44:28 asciilifeform: wat

04:44:40 asciilifeform: gonna service 1 node at a time ?

04:44:41 mod6: http://dpaste.com/3WAY4WZ.txt << mine (lol 3way)

04:44:42 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ebTbqg )

04:44:51 asciilifeform: with polling ?

04:45:02 decimation: yeah, async

04:45:09 asciilifeform: screw that

04:45:12 decimation: heh

04:45:16 mod6: heheh

04:45:17 asciilifeform: go build p2p net with 1-at-a-time

04:45:39 asciilifeform: (and what, someone wants to connect, you drop ~everything~ ?)

04:45:42 decimation: I've built several pure async servers

04:46:11 asciilifeform: decimation: what do they do? queue requests ?

04:46:18 decimation: sure

04:46:33 decimation: generally, you write a while loop with epoll or whatever

04:46:38 decimation: jump to whatever bell rings

04:46:48 asciilifeform: as if this thing didn't suck enough balls

04:47:32 decimation: well, it seems to me that there ought to be a definable spec between "talk to peers" and "maintain database of blocks"

04:48:26 asciilifeform: decimation: unless i seriously misunderstood mircea_popescu, not only is the reference client the permanent spec, but so are the turdependencies

04:48:42 asciilifeform: and anything purporting to be a human-readable spec is necessarily incomplete

04:48:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25944 @ 0.00040271 = 10.4479 BTC [+] {2}

04:49:09 decimation: well, until the book is printed, studied, underped

04:49:15 decimation: over many man-years of effort

04:49:18 asciilifeform: and that we're more or less stuck with this until mythical 'sanity fork'

04:49:22 trinque: decimation: sounds kinda like what I understand nginx to be

04:49:40 trinque: munches a queue of that-which-must-be-done with 1-n workers

04:49:55 asciilifeform: decimation: i don't think that a mathematically-rigorous description of openssl (not to even mention boost and bdb) could be achieved in 10,000 years of sweat

04:50:08 asciilifeform: or that anyone would wish to try.

04:50:30 decimation: even the severable bits that bitcoind really needs?

04:50:40 asciilifeform: it's 'the spittoon'

04:50:46 asciilifeform: none of it is really severable from any of it

04:51:05 decimation: well, ultimately it's all running machine code

04:51:12 decimation: might need to start at that level I guess.

04:51:19 *: asciilifeform actually began there

04:51:35 asciilifeform: tried to come up with a mechanical mapping back from bin to what produced each section in the elf

04:51:48 asciilifeform: even wrote buncha ida script idiocy

04:52:05 asciilifeform: had to put it down, too many other things going on

04:52:43 asciilifeform: gcc, as one might imagine, does not go out of its way to help this be a readily practical thing

04:52:46 asciilifeform: quite the contrary.

04:53:16 asciilifeform: rms ~deliberately~ nudges it, whenever he can, in the direction of being as opaque as possible

04:53:18 decimation: no and as I recall there's hand-written asm in openssl

04:53:24 asciilifeform: decimation: optional

04:53:29 decimation: sure, to keep folks from re-writing gcc

04:53:33 decimation: so he can haz powerz

04:53:37 asciilifeform: decimation: not quite

04:54:11 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#816009 << see old thread.

04:54:11 assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 03:37:06; decimation: "The existence of LLVM is a terrible setback for our community precisely because it is not copylefted and can be used as the basis for nonfree compilers — so that all contribution to LLVM directly helps proprietary software as much as it helps us.'"

04:54:32 asciilifeform: .... and another short burst from mircea_popescu's node

04:55:36 asciilifeform: decimation: rms did not want it to break apart into readily-plagiarizable pieces.

04:55:45 asciilifeform: this is annoying but i understand 100%

04:55:50 asciilifeform: why he did it

04:55:53 ben_vulpes: erm i thought bitcoind *did* service one at a time, looping over sockets

04:55:55 *: ben_vulpes to src

04:55:58 decimation: sure, he wants to keep people from mkaing a bsd gcc

04:56:55 asciilifeform: gcc is the original lonely fort keeping the whole gpl thing alive

04:57:12 asciilifeform: the one thing the fucking parasites couldn't effectively plagiarize without leaving trace

04:57:33 asciilifeform: but this had a cost, yes.

04:59:12 asciilifeform: i will note that llvm (since i mentioned it again) is upon the most cursory examination a piece of shit, that wasn't even built to 'be good' - but simply with the one and only purpose of killing gcc.

04:59:17 asciilifeform: rms is spot-on here

04:59:28 asciilifeform: it exists, was built, to help him die.

04:59:46 decimation: I find it unlikely that the fsf will outlive him

05:00:06 asciilifeform: in the sense in which it is now alive? sure

05:00:15 asciilifeform: in the sense of keeping the 'reasonable' folks at bay? doubtful

05:00:28 decimation: maybe.

05:00:43 asciilifeform: as soon as he's out, 'reasonable' people will crawl in and 'make compromises'

05:00:45 decimation: gpl is pretty weak sauce unless you have a barrel of lawyers to help you enforce it

05:01:00 decimation: aye, agreed

05:01:14 decimation: all I want is a world where I get source when I get software

05:01:33 decimation: but I recognize that rms' stand is probably the only way

05:01:38 asciilifeform: won't ask for it to be buildable ?

05:01:44 asciilifeform: on something which in turn is buildable ?

05:01:44 asciilifeform: etc

05:01:54 decimation: aye

05:02:13 decimation: really, he's already lost his war for the reasons you harp on re: bedrock

05:02:33 asciilifeform: rms doesn't do war. not for many years, anyway. he does 'lonely fort'

05:02:43 asciilifeform: keeping out whole universes full of filth

05:02:58 asciilifeform: that will come flooding in as soon as he's out of action

05:03:07 asciilifeform: it is already seeping through the cracks.

05:03:12 asciilifeform: has been, for some years now.

05:03:36 decimation: yeah, as far as I can tell gpl only really 'sticks' to fsf software directly

05:04:04 asciilifeform: gpl is really primarily about gcc and linuxkernel

05:04:08 decimation: yeah

05:04:11 asciilifeform: everything else is window dressing

05:04:27 decimation: not much use to a license if you don't intend on enforcing it

05:05:40 ben_vulpes: (curse these jackholes who littered the source with printstatements that include function names)

05:06:02 ben_vulpes: is there a sane cpp logging thing that could be used in place of these print statements?

05:06:36 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there's gcc-specific stuff that folds the line and # into the print

05:06:51 asciilifeform: (can't recall off top of head what, precisely. rtfm...)

05:07:52 asciilifeform: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Standard-Predefined-Macros.html << possibly here

05:07:54 assbot: Standard Predefined Macros - The C Preprocessor ... ( http://bit.ly/1JqXV95 )

05:08:26 asciilifeform: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/cpp/Common-Predefined-Macros.html#Common-Predefined-Macros << and here

05:08:27 assbot: Common Predefined Macros - The C Preprocessor ... ( http://bit.ly/1JqXXxK )

05:09:03 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: fprintf(stderr, "info: %s:%d: ", __FILE__, __LINE__);

05:09:12 *: ben_vulpes wonders at actual utility of a patch shaped like this

05:09:59 asciilifeform: i was reluctant to throw gccisms in there, but if we go and start building on mircea_popescu's soviet pdp11 we can always roll equivalent macros for that

05:10:47 asciilifeform: but if you ask me, this falls squarely under 'do this after it fucking ~works~' as described by mircea_popescu earlier.

05:11:21 *: ben_vulpes nods

05:12:09 *: asciilifeform sees another very short burst from mircea_popescu's node

05:12:17 asciilifeform: followed by silence...

05:12:47 asciilifeform: at this rate, the thing will sync some time after the eeproms in my computer lose 9/10th of their bits

05:12:54 asciilifeform: and i die of old age 3-5 times

05:13:27 mircea_popescu: nuts.

05:13:34 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/net.cpp#1499 << looping over nodes, handling messages including new blocks

05:13:35 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1JqYpMw )

05:13:47 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yes but has accept()

05:14:02 ben_vulpes: pardon?

05:14:29 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: is able to take new connections while doing said loop

05:14:40 ben_vulpes: aha

05:15:16 ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/ident?_i=fShutdown << for log readers interested in how precisely bitcoin shits its pants when told to go to sleep

05:15:17 assbot: Satoshi identifier search: fShutdown ... ( http://bit.ly/1JqYD6n )

05:15:30 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: but if you can write your own asynchronous everything, you can finally get the coveted msdos port...

05:16:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4305 @ 0.00040539 = 1.7452 BTC [+]

05:16:42 ben_vulpes: mnope.

05:17:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja see http://dpaste.com/2WANN89.txt

05:17:03 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1GTxC7X )

05:17:19 ben_vulpes: that'd be threadsockethandler?

05:17:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok ?

05:17:57 mircea_popescu: what is

05:18:10 asciilifeform: damned if i know

05:18:33 mircea_popescu: does ntt europe have a dedicated, identifiable five eyes leecher ?

05:18:59 asciilifeform: wouldn't be the first

05:19:06 asciilifeform: and not merely leecher, but pisser

05:19:09 mircea_popescu: this entire experience painfully reminds me of the famous phoneline click somehow

05:19:13 asciilifeform: aha!

05:19:17 asciilifeform: was just thinking this!

05:19:25 mircea_popescu: im sure it's just my feverish paranoia.

05:19:43 asciilifeform: if it's man-made, it's actually pretty classy

05:20:00 asciilifeform: dropping the connection would get bitcoind rotating to next node

05:20:05 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1179703 << win.

05:20:05 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 02:04:04; asciilifeform: There is no dynamic section in this file.

05:20:06 asciilifeform: (supposing we weren't using -connect)

05:20:23 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: partial win, it's still built on (static) glibc

05:20:36 asciilifeform: but the thing is running on my box now.

05:20:37 mircea_popescu: you actually managed to get glibc to static ?

05:20:40 asciilifeform: did.

05:20:48 mircea_popescu: this is pretty great.

05:20:51 asciilifeform: pull down the tarball from ml, try

05:21:03 asciilifeform: doesn't take high tech magic

05:21:14 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1179724 << perfect.

05:21:14 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 02:30:30; asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu asks, this turd will be deployed to dulap (s.nsa box)

05:21:15 asciilifeform: drop deps in 'distfiles', run stator.sh.

05:21:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and yes, was gonna do this after certain tests. such as the one that is presently failing

05:21:41 asciilifeform: (-connect from motherlode)

05:21:48 mircea_popescu: aha.

05:22:04 asciilifeform: and would sorta like other folks to read the damn thing

05:22:15 mircea_popescu: yea.

05:22:17 asciilifeform: (no patches necessary to the bitcoind proper beyond what was published previously)

05:22:27 asciilifeform: see ml post.

05:22:58 mircea_popescu: did someoine actually answer "favourite pubkey algo" q with a ... hashing function ?!

05:23:08 asciilifeform: yeah some anon schmuck

05:23:14 mircea_popescu: "what's your favourite fish ?" "shoe"

05:23:26 mircea_popescu: "you mean sole ?" "o yeah that's the one!"

05:23:27 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why "stator"

05:23:35 asciilifeform: 'the most delicious fish is the sausage.' --my grandfather

05:23:49 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: static bin

05:23:55 mircea_popescu: properly made sausage actually floats. therefore not a fish

05:23:57 mircea_popescu: but a witch

05:24:12 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: ouch

05:24:40 mircea_popescu: are you a pain enthusiast ben_vulpes ?

05:25:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to answer earlier q : i think for thius purpose (running on dulap etc) static glibc is exactly right.

05:25:58 mircea_popescu: doesn't help us on pogo, but that's a diff story.

05:26:12 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was actually thinking of doing for ibmpc something like what i did for pogo

05:26:24 asciilifeform: e.g. a kernel that boots right into, this.

05:26:28 mircea_popescu: we'll have to bootstrap ourselves.

05:26:33 mircea_popescu: so that can be v 1.1

05:26:55 asciilifeform: y'know how some hoster folks let you drop an iso in when you get the thing

05:26:58 mircea_popescu: also, kernel is a good idea maybe for pogo. not for a proper server. you want people to add it to all their noncritical dedis.

05:27:00 asciilifeform: 'install favourite os'

05:27:13 asciilifeform: that'd be more for dedicated nodes, aha

05:27:28 asciilifeform: for mixing into daily life - normal package suffices

05:27:30 mircea_popescu: pogo = dedicated node ; this = stick everywhere

05:27:33 mircea_popescu: yeah

05:27:47 asciilifeform: but overall i like the idea of a dc box with bitcoind and LITERALLY NOTHING ELSE

05:27:48 asciilifeform: not even ssh

05:27:53 mircea_popescu: pogo.

05:28:04 mircea_popescu: that box should not be in dc

05:28:09 mircea_popescu: but on consumer internet terminals.

05:28:18 asciilifeform: until we actually get limited mempool, shoot fragging in the head, etc. pogo will be a bit slow

05:28:25 asciilifeform: (it'll have to swap.)

05:28:41 mircea_popescu: understand - it's 10x to 100x more expensive to do a on random home cable than it is on servers

05:29:02 asciilifeform: aha

05:29:16 asciilifeform: unquestionably the whole 'p2p' thing is the right and proper objective

05:29:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46850 @ 0.00040636 = 19.038 BTC [+] {3}

05:29:46 asciilifeform: but of necessity many of the boxes involved in the ramp-up will be pc.

05:31:24 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180198 << can't entirely agree here. every so often folks discover carriers diddling 'consumer' traffic in obscene ways (adding tracking crud to http, even) having gone by for years at a time with not a squeak from the chumps

05:31:24 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 05:28:41; mircea_popescu: understand - it's 10x to 100x more expensive to do a on random home cable than it is on servers

05:32:34 asciilifeform: do this at a serious dc and you have half a dozen 'bofhs' going postal

05:32:54 ben_vulpes: pardon my thickness, but what is "this" now?

05:32:54 asciilifeform: because literate folks, heard of 'tcpdump', 'wireshark', etc

05:33:00 ben_vulpes: oh oh

05:33:04 asciilifeform: yeah, that this.

05:33:10 ben_vulpes: diddling.

05:33:32 ben_vulpes: what is the 10x to 100x refer to - not the ip cost at a 'home' terminal?

05:33:50 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: cost of setting up diddler

05:33:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're thinking the 90s.

05:34:03 mircea_popescu: those people are retired.

05:34:04 asciilifeform: i'm still in the 90s

05:34:10 asciilifeform: posting from them right now, l0l

05:34:11 mircea_popescu: nice for you - but...

05:34:22 asciilifeform: it's about 1994 here in this room

05:34:33 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes just more nonsense to filter.

05:38:52 ben_vulpes: ic

05:39:20 mod6: <+mircea_popescu> "what's your favourite fish ?" "shoe" << haha

05:40:51 *: asciilifeform bbl.

05:49:33 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1179994 << topless ?

05:49:33 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 04:31:39; trinque: ben_vulpes: y'know no sooner do I even consider relocating to the land of capitalism and Portland's like "but dude! an army of titties on bikes!"

05:51:02 mats: http://pdxwnbr.org/

05:51:03 assbot: World Naked Bike Ride | As Bare As You Dare ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEDYEW )

05:52:02 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180042 << pretty much. HOWEVER, more movement has been made towards sanity in this chan over the past six months than since 2009.

05:52:02 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 04:49:18; asciilifeform: and that we're more or less stuck with this until mythical 'sanity fork'

05:52:17 *: mats returns to the shadows

05:54:27 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180079 << outright impossible.

05:54:27 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 04:59:46; decimation: I find it unlikely that the fsf will outlive him

05:54:46 mircea_popescu: the fsf, and the "foss" concoction, are going to be gone before the usg.

05:55:39 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform, trinque, decimation: how does http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/serialize.h#1141 implement serialization such that it writes correctly-shaped data to CBlock here: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp#2193

05:55:41 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEEq6b )

05:55:42 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEEqD2 )

05:55:52 ben_vulpes: (and anyone else who understands cpp)

05:58:06 decimation: ugh template shit

05:58:32 ben_vulpes: maybe someday i'll understand what precisely's going on in serialize.h

05:59:06 ben_vulpes: just strikes me as a bit of black magic that a CDataStream can deserialize itself into a CBlock with just an overloaded right shift operator

05:59:22 decimation: yes, that's what the template does

05:59:33 decimation: 'overloads' >> with another function

06:05:52 ben_vulpes: but how does it know what to serialize the block message into

06:07:59 decimation: as in, what type?

06:11:18 ben_vulpes: maybe? perhaps i'm speaking poorly of ignorance.

06:11:55 ben_vulpes: is that `CBlock block` a contiguous-ish memory section?

06:13:15 mircea_popescu: unlikely.

06:13:32 decimation: can you tell me what line you are trying to understand? where the cblock is?

06:14:09 decimation: honestly I usually end up reading C++ reference books and mumbling to myself

06:15:30 ben_vulpes: decimation: i'm struggling to understand how http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp#2193 results in a data structure that ProcessBlock can understand

06:15:31 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEGdYT )

06:16:46 ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp#1424 << processblock, third line of which calls pblock->GetHash()

06:16:47 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEGkUc )

06:21:07 decimation: lol it calls a macro http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/serialize.h#0098

06:21:08 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEGJ9h )

06:27:03 decimation: the IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE in CBlock is here http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h#0800

06:27:04 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEHdw9 )

06:27:18 decimation: any class that serializes implements this macro

06:43:46 mats: http://messageboard.inhalant.org/post/my-isopropyl-alcohol-story-6562564 jesus

06:43:47 assbot: My isopropyl alcohol story. - Inhalant Abuse Prevention ... ( http://bit.ly/1GEILpO )

06:46:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39350 @ 0.00040276 = 15.8486 BTC [-] {2}

06:49:20 punkman: mats, lol. he's in netherlands, has money, and can't find better drugs than denatured alcohol?

06:49:57 mats: that occurred to me as well

06:58:27 trinque: "I did it because i like the smell." << bahaha

06:58:41 trinque: I've heard that one re: cocaine too

06:58:50 trinque: I'm sure in this case he means it.

07:01:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14050 @ 0.00039684 = 5.5756 BTC [-]

07:01:51 trinque: I have sometimes been so worried about what huffing isopropyl alcohol did to me that I have even faked symptoms so that I could go to the doctor repeatedly and get all kinds of check-ups. << I gotta wonder if these people aren't just addicted to the notion that they're doing something crazy and bad.

07:02:05 trinque: and love whatever attention that brings too

07:14:04 punkman: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3139679/Meet-Shabani-handsome-gorilla-raised-Australia-fame-Japan-women-flock-zoo-just-him.html

07:14:05 assbot: Gorilla Shabani who was raised in Australia has found fame in Japan | Daily Mail Online ... ( http://bit.ly/1dq5A9s )

07:17:23 punkman: http://www.rgj.com/longform/news/2015/06/26/blm-wants-vip-compound-burning-man/29318493/

07:17:27 assbot: RGJ Exclusive: BLM wants $1 million VIP compound from Burning Man ... ( http://bit.ly/1eRxjl1 )

07:24:04 cazalla: mircea_popescu, ya have not blocked me from qntra.net/wp-admin with iptables have ya?

07:25:44 punkman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_yCA0dsloE

07:25:45 assbot: Scary fire accident in Taiwan!!! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1dq6nap )

07:26:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7800 @ 0.00039608 = 3.0894 BTC [-] {2}

07:26:54 cazalla: punkman, we don't need no water let the mother fucker burn..

07:28:44 punkman: heh

07:32:43 cazalla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBfoFl0mnho

07:32:44 assbot: Walmart Refuses to Make Confederate Flag, But Makes This Cake Instead - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1eRyiSe )

07:33:53 cazalla: could only get better if they storm his house and arrest him for an ISIS cake

07:34:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44812 @ 0.00040145 = 17.9898 BTC [+]

07:36:39 punkman: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=25-06-2015#1176407 << https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrlYJqPvLks

07:36:39 assbot: Logged on 25-06-2015 17:21:41; mircea_popescu: "fata care cere palme" < face that demands slapping

07:36:40 assbot: Referendum (Grèce, Grecia, Greece, Griechenland, Grécia) : Alexis Tsipras - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1eRyAbK )

07:45:41 scoopbot_revived: Mining Difficulty Decreases By -0.58% http://qntra.net/2015/06/mining-difficulty-decreases-by-0-58/

07:46:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15145 @ 0.00041102 = 6.2249 BTC [+] {2}

07:47:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9255 @ 0.00041723 = 3.8615 BTC [+] {2}

07:48:56 ben_vulpes: cazalla: would benefit from a chart

07:51:26 punkman: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHK_W17UgAEuLIl.jpg

07:51:27 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1eRzIw7 )

07:53:07 cazalla: ben_vulpes, ay yo charts don't be earning no s.qntr shares CC: pete_dushenski

08:19:30 punkman: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-27/fx-brokerages-move-close-only-ahead-monday-open

08:19:31 assbot: FX Brokerages Move To "Close Only" Ahead Of Monday Open | Zero Hedge ... ( http://bit.ly/1eRBLQw )

08:24:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24445 @ 0.00042024 = 10.2728 BTC [+] {2}

08:25:04 jurov: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/06/27/cnn-confuses-butt-plug-and-dildo-banner-for-isis-flag-at-pride/

08:25:04 assbot: CNN confuses sex toy banner for ISIS flag at Pride · PinkNews ... ( http://bit.ly/1eRC9i4 )

08:25:11 jurov: lol they see isis everywhere

08:25:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4131 @ 0.00042098 = 1.7391 BTC [+]

08:26:09 punkman: jurov, in their defence, it looks like one

08:26:29 jurov: not on second look

08:35:24 cazalla: somewhat similar to that if you dropped a few stars from the ussa flag, you'd still think it was the ussa flag

08:51:20 mircea_popescu: cazalla have not, no.

08:51:43 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180271 << hos gotta knows where to flock.

08:51:43 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 07:17:23; punkman: http://www.rgj.com/longform/news/2015/06/26/blm-wants-vip-compound-burning-man/29318493/

08:52:01 cazalla: got in eventually, just took 5-10m to log into wp-admin for some reason

08:52:18 mircea_popescu: now, why would it be for ~officials~ is another matter.

08:59:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30708 @ 0.00042154 = 12.9447 BTC [+] {2}

09:10:22 punkman: !up MacCheese

09:14:14 MacCheese: Does slackware spy on what you do on your computer?

09:14:34 MacCheese: I am Jesus Christ

09:15:24 punkman: welcome

09:21:05 MacCheese: meowmix081?

09:24:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55750 @ 0.00041856 = 23.3347 BTC [-]

09:25:53 MacCheese: !s meowmix081

09:25:54 assbot: 1 results for 'meowmix081' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=meowmix081

09:26:01 MacCheese: !s meowmix

09:26:02 assbot: 59 results for 'meowmix' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=meowmix

09:32:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11791 @ 0.00042428 = 5.0027 BTC [+]

09:41:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4000 @ 0.00041856 = 1.6742 BTC [-]

09:42:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41098 @ 0.00041744 = 17.1559 BTC [-] {2}

10:55:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10526 @ 0.00042428 = 4.466 BTC [+]

11:56:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68803 @ 0.00042449 = 29.2062 BTC [+] {4}

13:06:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49550 @ 0.00041744 = 20.6842 BTC [-]

13:37:10 punkman: http://www.williamhillplc.com/media/newsroom/media-releases/2015/no-more-bets-on-grexit/

13:37:12 assbot: William Hill PLC: No More Bets On Grexit - Media releases - Newsroom - Media ... ( http://bit.ly/1BYNpUd )

13:37:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.00041744 = 5.385 BTC [-]

14:01:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38800 @ 0.00041531 = 16.114 BTC [-] {3}

14:17:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21500 @ 0.00041437 = 8.909 BTC [-] {2}

14:18:43 decimation: asciilifeform, others: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/serialize.h#0074 < hilarious. C++ methods being 'metaprogrammed' by C macro

14:18:44 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1JrAIDH )

14:18:49 decimation: satoshi had no shame

14:20:47 decimation: mixing C preprocessor and C++ templates would only occur to someone who had programed much C spagetti code in his life

14:22:22 decimation: ben_vulpes: to be clear, IMPLEMENT_SERIALIZE is a C preprocessor macro that is composed of other C preprocessor macros (READWRITE) that ends up dangling all the serialize/deserialize methods onto classes of his choosing

14:23:29 decimation: the methods themselves being C++ template methods

14:23:52 punkman: nice one

14:25:19 kakobrekla: spacex just disintegrated heh

14:33:14 mats: i was also watching the stream

14:33:30 mats: rocket disintegrates mid air

14:33:36 mats: ...oops.

14:44:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19904 @ 0.00041404 = 8.2411 BTC [-]

14:45:24 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu sync from your node (or from hitler's mitm node...!) is at 193600+ and counting

14:45:24 gribble: The operation succeeded.

14:47:59 asciilifeform: traceroute looks same today as last night.

14:48:03 asciilifeform: and it still runs in 'bursts.'

15:03:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37350 @ 0.00040364 = 15.076 BTC [-]

15:14:21 asciilifeform: 'BLM Special Agent Dan Love of Salt Lake City was cited multiple times as the person behind many of the BLM requests, according to the emails. Love will have a personal bathroom trailer to be shared with only one other official, according to documents. Love also led the BLM operation against Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy that ended in a standoff with Bundy's armed supporters. He did not return requests for comment this week.'

15:14:27 asciilifeform: ^ mega-l0l

15:15:01 *: asciilifeform has never been to 'burning man' thing and never really grasped the appeal

15:15:13 mats: 'culture'

15:15:55 asciilifeform: if i wanted to sit in the sun and dig latrines i could do it for free in .mil

15:17:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16491 @ 0.00040364 = 6.6564 BTC [-]

15:18:42 asciilifeform: they have better pyrotechnics too.

15:21:40 asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/serialize.h#0074 << cpp programmers in particular have no notion of hygiene. and the more experienced, the less of a notion they have, as a rule

15:21:41 assbot: Satoshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1KnqlkG )

15:23:02 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180335 << pretty much what naggum said: the language and its ecosystem encourages this kind of mental decay - and selects for the susceptible in the first place

15:23:02 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 14:23:29; decimation: the methods themselves being C++ template methods

15:24:31 asciilifeform: see http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3088289335876823@naggum.no.html

15:24:32 assbot: Re: Why a lisp OS? Re: Help required on Limitations of Lisp - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1NquySi )

15:24:59 asciilifeform: in particular, 'in a sense, Windows is a result of the way C++ builds environments, like Unix is a result of how C does it.'

15:34:30 asciilifeform: https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-hacker/1999-08/msg00049.html << drepper!

15:34:31 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1NqvNB2 )

15:34:32 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ^^

15:35:09 asciilifeform: (re: the gconv thing. i've been bashing my head against the conundrum of how to tear out that idiocy from my static build)

15:35:28 asciilifeform: it ~has~ to go

15:35:48 asciilifeform: go and strace the thing and yes, it snarfs up this perfectly-irrelevant turd from disk

15:36:15 asciilifeform: https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-hacker/1999-08/msg00051.html << moar of same

15:36:16 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Nqw332 )

15:36:34 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45100 @ 0.00040671 = 18.3426 BTC [+] {3}

15:38:02 asciilifeform: poettering et al are small change in comparison

15:38:26 asciilifeform: linux ecosystem was drepperized so long ago that scarcely anyone remembers.

15:40:33 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180185 << my build cannot be considered battlefield-ready in this sense until the gconv thing is burned out with hot irons

15:40:33 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 05:26:58; mircea_popescu: also, kernel is a good idea maybe for pogo. not for a proper server. you want people to add it to all their noncritical dedis.

15:41:03 asciilifeform: that thing is a ready, lubricated orifice for slithering vermin

15:43:34 asciilifeform: the thing that boggles my mind is that rms ~must~ have known about the fifth column

15:43:55 asciilifeform: how has he not spoken out (or eaten his pistol...) yet ?

15:46:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17892 @ 0.00039688 = 7.101 BTC [-]

15:58:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40805 @ 0.00039626 = 16.1694 BTC [-] {2}

15:59:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12648 @ 0.00039532 = 5 BTC [-]

16:27:12 chetty: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/06/26/artificial-intelligence-machine-gets-testy-with-its-programmers/

16:27:13 assbot: Artificial Intelligence Machine Gets Testy With Its Programmer - Digits - WSJ ... ( http://bit.ly/1IDtxTo )

16:28:45 chetty: is it just me or does that machine sound a bit like mp?

16:42:13 asciilifeform: '...The exchange sheds further light on the latest work carried out by large technology firms in the field of artificial intelligence, a booming field...' << apparently today is still 1966, weizenbaum's 'eliza' is 'latest work'

16:42:32 asciilifeform: !up bitcoinfailed

16:43:19 *: asciilifeform loves the open-ended 'failed' used in the english language

16:44:17 asciilifeform: sentence doesn't need an object, why'd ya want that, aha

16:45:27 kakobrekla: Human: What do you like to talk about?

16:45:27 kakobrekla: Machine: Nothing.

16:45:31 kakobrekla: seems quite honest to me

16:45:50 asciilifeform: ;;later tell BingoBoingo in your gardening, have you ever used a 19th c.-style muscle-powered grass cutter? i did today, and noticed that it is actually less exhausting than petrol-powered variety on account of my not breathing CO from tailpipe

16:45:50 gribble: The operation succeeded.

16:56:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52197 @ 0.00039377 = 20.5536 BTC [-]

17:07:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20100 @ 0.00039826 = 8.005 BTC [+]

17:29:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18300 @ 0.00039826 = 7.2882 BTC [+]

17:56:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23800 @ 0.00039416 = 9.381 BTC [-]

17:59:43 asciilifeform: 208002...

18:01:52 *: asciilifeform is coming to think that we will be needing a mechanism for out-of-band (hashes, pgp) comparison of blockchains

18:02:15 *: asciilifeform is not ~at all~ certain that he is actually pulling from mircea_popescu's box, rather than a preet's

18:02:30 ben_vulpes: how could one tell? ordering of blocks?

18:02:39 asciilifeform: tell what ?

18:02:47 asciilifeform: whether he and i have same ?

18:02:53 asciilifeform: by hashing and sending pgpgram...

18:03:18 ben_vulpes: there's no guarantee that you'll produce the same blockchain on disk, though.

18:03:25 asciilifeform: precisely

18:03:44 asciilifeform: hence why we need a mechanism to actually checksum the blocks and dump it to a man-readable form

18:04:02 ben_vulpes: i would actually be *surprised* if you did produce the same disk bytes via a network cslurping

18:04:02 asciilifeform: can reuse the 'checkpoint' code for this

18:04:13 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you know full well that it won't

18:04:49 asciilifeform: which is why i said 'we need mechanism...' rather than 'hey mircea_popescu, hash those db turds and send me back via pgp wontcha'

18:04:53 ben_vulpes: i surmise

18:05:23 ben_vulpes: the thing at this point lies spread apart on my vivisection table

18:05:40 ben_vulpes: i've not yet mapped its circulatory system, much less how it excretes

18:05:56 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if you wanna perform a heroid deed, find out how to nuke gconv

18:06:00 asciilifeform: *heroic

18:06:30 asciilifeform: so far, all i learned is that it can - supposedly - be disabled during glibc build config. but this is not what i want

18:06:50 ben_vulpes: i'm not actually entirely certain where the gconv stuff is coming in

18:06:58 asciilifeform: if i have to write an elf diddler to yank it out of the binary, i will

18:07:01 asciilifeform: but would rather not come to this

18:07:10 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it is coming via glibc

18:07:15 asciilifeform: see the drepper link earlier today

18:07:19 asciilifeform: that fucker is responsible

18:07:25 asciilifeform: was quite open about it.

18:08:24 ben_vulpes: that, sir, is over my pay grade.

18:08:52 asciilifeform: i'm still hoping that i overlooked something, and that it can be disabled via civilized means

18:08:54 ben_vulpes: behavior tracker has my attention at the moment.

18:09:16 ben_vulpes: (or is that another "jam tomorrow"?)

18:09:25 asciilifeform: ?

18:09:30 asciilifeform: which behaviour

18:09:43 ben_vulpes: "peer ranker"

18:10:04 ben_vulpes: dun think the thing has a formal name yet. but that which is responsible for grading peers while syncing.

18:10:14 asciilifeform: as far as i can tell, there is no intelligence in it beyond the misbehave... crap

18:10:33 ben_vulpes: i speak of mircea_popescu's desired behavior.

18:10:46 asciilifeform: that will only make sense once the pipe itself is authenticable

18:10:48 asciilifeform: (gossip)

18:10:57 asciilifeform: right now, as i said, no one has any idea who he is talking to

18:11:13 *: ben_vulpes rolls eyes

18:11:14 asciilifeform: for all i know, i'm syncing from a stooge box planted only a few miles away at my isp

18:11:44 asciilifeform: and it is slow because philipinos have to crap out the diddled blocks by hand

18:11:45 ben_vulpes: and if thbox serves at a high bandwidth few bastards and blocks that all verify, why not prefer it over others?

18:12:04 asciilifeform: 'few bastards' is not a criterion while we're using the classical sync mechanism;

18:12:12 asciilifeform: e.g., mircea_popescu's box craps out as many bastards as anyone's

18:12:23 asciilifeform: on account of there being no intelligence whatsoever in the sync code

18:12:26 ben_vulpes: ah have ye tested that yet?

18:12:34 asciilifeform: i have the thing scrolling on own display

18:12:49 asciilifeform: have been watching it, on and off, since started

18:12:49 mats: http://newsexaminer.net/politics/sex-offenders-now-required-transparent-rainbows-profile-pictures

18:12:53 assbot: Sex Offenders Now Required To Have Transparent Rainbows On Their Profile Image - News Examiner - Examine Your World ... ( http://bit.ly/1BZnOdC )

18:12:53 ben_vulpes: "blonde, brunette, redhead..."

18:13:37 *: ben_vulpes is still curious about the block-vomiting process, and how bastards make it in

18:13:50 asciilifeform: mats: l0l, a new 'the onion'

18:15:13 mats: pretty good.

18:30:26 assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 313 @ 0.00463062 = 1.4494 BTC [-] {10}

18:31:21 decimation: asciilifeform: I use plug-in electric lawnmower

18:31:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35700 @ 0.00039416 = 14.0715 BTC [-]

18:31:41 decimation: the cord is a little annoying but lack of co coming from exhaust is worthwhile

18:45:43 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> and it still runs in 'bursts.' << this is a very strange behaviour. what's 193k, like 3-5% ?

18:46:10 mircea_popescu: 'BLM Special Agent" ? what the fuck ? everyone in the us got their power rangers now ?

18:47:04 mircea_popescu: * asciilifeform has never been to 'burning man' thing and never really grasped the appeal << pretty much the ONLY remaining spot on the west coast to meet slovenly females that are undemanding.

18:47:31 mircea_popescu: your average adolescent male does not own a shirt. the female he'd be interested in dreams about waiting for "the right saudi prince".

18:47:34 mircea_popescu: imagine the tensions.

18:47:56 mircea_popescu: them silly kids will not really shoot for burning man, of course, but they'd be REALLY really sad in their corner if it went away.

18:48:04 mircea_popescu: "self reliance" = "we fuck in the dirt"

18:49:33 decimation: I wonder how long it will be until 'BLM special agents' start claiming sovereignty over their lands

18:50:01 mircea_popescu: in other news, i propose a petition to have the "Child Porn" utility removed from linux. why is not MauVe enough ?

18:50:13 mircea_popescu: only thing they do with CP is CI anyway.

18:51:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00039876 = 11.9628 BTC [+] {2}

18:51:59 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gets a confirmed kill https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-hacker/1999-08/msg00050.html drepper's the enemy.

18:52:00 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1eSLy8Z )

18:52:33 mircea_popescu: " nobody used the code for real " ; "I personally don't care at all how big static binaries are."

18:52:37 mircea_popescu: it's like a religion.

18:52:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16776 @ 0.00040003 = 6.7109 BTC [+]

18:52:52 mircea_popescu: "Nobody must use them except for very few exceptions and for those larger code size is ok."

18:53:29 decimation: heh

18:54:29 decimation: well, as we have discussed here before, the whole idea of shared libraries is kind of a fucktarded version of 'global namespaces'

18:55:08 mircea_popescu: not ~really~.

18:57:36 mircea_popescu: and i base myself on the fact that they worked pretty well in practice until the new generation of "reformist" idiots got involved, and put 'locale' as a concept in c.

18:57:53 mircea_popescu: before that existed, python worked fine, and static builds were trhe default and so on.

19:01:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25400 @ 0.0004011 = 10.1879 BTC [+] {2}

19:02:22 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> linux ecosystem was drepperized so long ago that scarcely anyone remembers. << kinda why everyone is reacting with so much disbelief at the sudden "this is not acceptable". they had been doing it forever, gavin as a marginally retarded peripheral agent of the idiocy got totally blindsided by an armed insurection. that we'd pursue it is i suppose plainly unthinkable, the sort of thing the rmcgraths of th

19:02:22 mircea_popescu: e world were dreaming about in their cells twenty years ago, like my grandfather looking at the sky waiting for "the americans" to show up.

19:02:46 mircea_popescu: this is also why poettering et all so plainly expected it to work etc/

19:03:31 mircea_popescu: it all makes perfect sense, looking at it now. they look like patently insane if considered on the merits, but if considered culturally they are simply "i just work here" and "this is how the world works". about as insane as an ant.

19:03:43 mircea_popescu: and as decimation points out, yes we've agreed an ant's insane.

19:05:32 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> the thing that boggles my mind is that rms ~must~ have known about the fifth column << you would have expected to read about it on his fraudsters, yes ? of what is this expectation built, if not out of the existence of fraudsters, and of the existence of mpoe-pr at my orders, and of the culture this engendered ? rms does not read fraudsters ; in his ignorance, fraudsters does not exist and same thing can not be rep

19:05:32 mircea_popescu: roduced for "reasons". and so he is in the unenviable position of one whom we do not doubt that behaves as one that is guilty - ie, must have known, said nothing ever.

19:06:11 mircea_popescu: <chetty> is it just me or does that machine sound a bit like mp? << o.O

19:07:53 mircea_popescu: "The exchange sheds further light on the latest work" << yeah. it sheds the following light : "work" by these wankers consists these days of outputting random strings from pre-made texts and trying to do a cute seleciton thereof.

19:08:01 mircea_popescu: it's so wrong it's not even cargo cult.

19:09:38 asciilifeform: thing is still running in (short) bursts, as before.

19:09:48 asciilifeform: plenty of outright disconnects, too

19:09:48 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180407 << this is actually a very beautiful idea.

19:09:48 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 18:04:02; asciilifeform: can reuse the 'checkpoint' code for this

19:10:00 asciilifeform: 209209.

19:10:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's been in my head for a while now.

19:10:10 mircea_popescu: can this actually work for 1.1 ie next version ?

19:10:43 mircea_popescu: have a -checkpoint=111 -checkpointe=113 which takes blocks 111 to 113 hashes them dumps hash.

19:10:44 asciilifeform: really shouldn't be hard. when commanded, will piss out ascii text with block # <<>> hash

19:10:52 mircea_popescu: aye

19:12:10 mircea_popescu: to think that it's not already in there for crying out loud.

19:12:16 mircea_popescu: how have i lived before ?

19:12:40 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180430 << another worthy direction yes.

19:12:40 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 18:10:04; ben_vulpes: dun think the thing has a formal name yet. but that which is responsible for grading peers while syncing.

19:13:16 asciilifeform: other thing, that will have to be added, imho, asap, is a non-retarded version of 'connect'

19:13:22 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180433 << as you clearly notice, the pipe is authenticable does not equal gosspid : we can have out of band authenticifaction as per the above mechanism.

19:13:22 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 18:10:46; asciilifeform: that will only make sense once the pipe itself is authenticable

19:13:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform also 1.1 ideally yes.

19:13:37 asciilifeform: where 1) can -connect to *multiple* boxes 2) does not as result wall off from inbound connections

19:13:50 asciilifeform: say i wanna cycle between mircea_popescu's 3 boxen

19:13:52 mircea_popescu: 1 before 2, yes.

19:14:08 mircea_popescu: the entire idea of what we are building here is NODE HIERARCHY.

19:14:17 asciilifeform: or say i wanna permit inbounds from lusers but never getblocks() from them

19:14:21 mircea_popescu: which is to say, i wish my node to connect only to people on THIS list, and let anyone connect to it.

19:14:26 decimation: asciilifeform: what about connecting something to a running bitcoind, siphoning off blocks as they are 'validated'?

19:14:38 decimation: re-index into sane database

19:14:41 mircea_popescu: then the ability of the wankers to poison the chain becomes nil : sure, whatever nodes listen to them listen to them. the infrastructure does not.

19:14:43 asciilifeform: decimation: that's plain old -connect

19:15:19 asciilifeform: decimation: or if you meant some oddball 'embrace & extend' of the sync protocol - yeah, we'll probably get there eventually

19:15:30 decimation: yeah I guess that's kinda what I mean

19:15:33 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180438 << this would be so fucking great if it's the case.

19:15:33 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 18:11:44; asciilifeform: and it is slow because philipinos have to crap out the diddled blocks by hand

19:15:38 mircea_popescu: those poor schmucks imagine.

19:15:45 decimation: implant probes into bitcoind to suck out its blocks

19:15:56 mircea_popescu: they had to murder the connection to buy themselves another 16 hours, because OMFG THEY'RE DOING WHAT ?!?!? NOW ?!?!

19:15:59 mircea_popescu: and now have to work it

19:16:01 mircea_popescu: ahhhh

19:16:50 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if enemy action indeed rather than the net being a ruinous ball of yarn - they were probably fuzzing for various protocol boojums

19:17:19 asciilifeform: of course, plain old reroute for snorting with derelict infrastructure would have similar 'molasses' effect..

19:17:29 asciilifeform: ^ the most likely picture

19:17:41 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180453 << i use the same thing. co2 doesn't bother me much, however, i will go into the ss before i put up with that sort of wrist vibration.

19:17:41 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 18:31:21; decimation: asciilifeform: I use plug-in electric lawnmower

19:17:49 mircea_popescu: i intend to remain able to type my entire lifespan.

19:18:04 decimation: well, the other reason I use electric: one less engine to maintain

19:18:08 asciilifeform: what kind of grass mircea_popescu cuts in his flat, lol

19:18:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in timisoara i had a garden recall ?

19:18:23 asciilifeform: aha!

19:18:24 asciilifeform: yes.

19:18:28 mircea_popescu: well, that.

19:18:29 decimation: no gas to store, no oil to change, etc

19:18:38 mircea_popescu: and it was about 1/4 ton of grass each cutting.

19:18:55 mircea_popescu: which means about 20 in a year, which the neighbours helpfully PUT OUTSIDE BY THEIR DUMPSTERS.

19:19:07 mircea_popescu: then went to supermarket and bought feed for the poor yard.

19:19:16 asciilifeform: l0l

19:19:18 mircea_popescu: then they will wish to know why isis comes and beheads them

19:19:26 mircea_popescu: and it will be an unexpolainable hatred, i'm sure.

19:20:05 decimation: mircea_popescu: generally here the received wisdom is that you want to leave grass clippings on the lawn

19:20:08 *: asciilifeform bbl, playing with pet

19:20:19 decimation: rots, recycles nutrients

19:20:54 mircea_popescu: decimation what i did was pile it all in a corner.

19:21:09 mircea_popescu: also rots. also provides nutrients. can be split up over the yard beforer first snow.

19:21:15 decimation: yeah, that works too

19:21:24 mircea_popescu: also attracts birds.

19:21:28 decimation: you can add kitchen scraps and wood clippings, make good compost

19:21:48 mircea_popescu: ideally you start it with a good offering of herbivore droppings.

19:22:15 decimation: that's a good idea

19:22:23 mircea_popescu: and i did add the wood clippings, ie, me cutting off an apple and a pear tree into shape over a coupla years, after having been neglected for 5ish

19:22:27 decimation: I've also heard of going to the nearest swamp and grabbing the muck

19:22:49 mircea_popescu: not very useful, for your thing will not be either that wet or that basic. very acidic

19:22:56 mircea_popescu: horsesht the only way to go.

19:23:04 decimation: yeah that's a good idea

19:23:36 decimation: ^ note that this is how people made fertiziler since the dawn of time

19:23:44 mircea_popescu: just don't put anything coniferous / wallnut in there.

19:23:56 mircea_popescu: like the ornamental tree stuffs.

19:26:10 mircea_popescu: "You don't have to boot frmo the CDROM. And if you need a router you have a network and therefore can connect to another machine."

19:26:19 mircea_popescu: Date: 19 Aug 1999 15:38:56 -0700

19:26:35 mircea_popescu: imo nsa of 1999 was much better organised than the crap of today.

19:27:30 mircea_popescu: For instance: #include <stdio.h> int main(int argc, char **argv) { printf ("Hello World\n"); } compiles to 985,018 bytes. This is almost all libc overhead.

19:27:34 mircea_popescu: what is it by now ? 4mb ?

19:28:22 decimation: heh

19:30:19 decimation: it's only 8.3k on mac osx

19:30:28 mircea_popescu: that's pretty good.

19:31:59 decimation: 6.4kbyte on redhat 6

19:34:32 decimation: that's shared linking though

19:34:54 mircea_popescu: nonono, static

19:36:28 decimation: heh 743kbyte on redhat

19:36:35 mircea_popescu: mmkay.

19:37:16 mircea_popescu: incredible that this "free world" thing has waited patiently, and incredibly quietly, for 25 years for us to show up. i imagine it will be very hurt in its hopes and aspirations when i spit in its mouth.

19:37:28 mircea_popescu: because truly, it was waiting for salvation! resisting through culture!

19:37:35 mircea_popescu: they really did mean to assassinate hitler!

19:38:32 mircea_popescu: just biding their time, waiting for a good opportunity, honest! wanted to do maximum damage, and as we all know, ~MAXIMUM~ damage is always in the future.

19:39:52 mircea_popescu: what's needed is a fucking ISCS. the intellectual state of computer science.

19:39:57 decimation: heh

19:45:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37819 @ 0.00040263 = 15.2271 BTC [+] {2}

19:50:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 110900 @ 0.00039366 = 43.6569 BTC [-] {4}

19:56:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23043 @ 0.0003933 = 9.0628 BTC [-]

20:01:39 punkman: ...and banks closed for a week, maybe.

20:06:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41350 @ 0.0003933 = 16.263 BTC [-]

20:06:23 punkman: also first jackpot yesterday, burglars got away with some guy's safe containing 700k in cash/jewelry

20:17:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36650 @ 0.00040537 = 14.8568 BTC [+] {2}

20:34:57 asciilifeform: 214873.

20:37:27 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180504 << still need it, to, e.g., keep lusers from taking shits into the mempool

20:37:27 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 19:13:22; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180433 << as you clearly notice, the pipe is authenticable does not equal gosspid : we can have out of band authenticifaction as per the above mechanism.

20:56:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31619 @ 0.000407 = 12.8689 BTC [+]

20:58:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27793 @ 0.00040714 = 11.3156 BTC [+] {2}

20:59:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32407 @ 0.0004092 = 13.2609 BTC [+]

21:13:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39950 @ 0.0004092 = 16.3475 BTC [+]

21:13:12 chetty: asciilifeform, if my node only connects to your node mempool is safe right

21:13:22 asciilifeform: whose ?

21:27:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12950 @ 0.0004048 = 5.2422 BTC [-] {2}

21:30:13 chetty: mine

21:30:36 asciilifeform: depends on who got to crap in mine, doesnit.

21:30:43 chetty: yes

21:34:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10820 @ 0.00039959 = 4.3236 BTC [-] {2}

21:37:10 ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180430 << another worthy direction yes. << not jam tomorrow, then?

21:37:10 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 18:10:04; ben_vulpes: dun think the thing has a formal name yet. but that which is responsible for grading peers while syncing.

21:46:39 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: Misbehaving is p lulzy

21:46:51 ben_vulpes: great enumeration of badness

21:48:45 cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-06-2015#1180453 <<< electric mower and whipper snipper seems like a recipe for trouble

21:48:45 assbot: Logged on 28-06-2015 18:31:21; decimation: asciilifeform: I use plug-in electric lawnmower

21:50:14 mats: i dun even have a lawn

21:50:27 mats: and i am glad

21:51:02 cazalla: i wish i could mow the lawn every day

21:52:08 mats: what are we talking about now

21:53:15 ben_vulpes: caz has a shaving fetish, gets razor burn, tries not to cry, cries a lot

21:54:30 mats: pretty tame compared to mp's interests

21:55:23 cazalla: a shaving fetish.. that's a first.. gotta google this one

21:56:03 cazalla: who would've guessed.. manshavingfetish.blogspot.com.au

21:56:09 ben_vulpes: heh.

21:56:13 ben_vulpes: rule 48.

21:56:24 cazalla: seriously though, i enjoy mowing the lawn, that fresh cut look, the smell, the goodies for my compost

21:57:49 mats: i dunno what i expected when i clicked that

21:57:58 mats: insta regret

21:58:40 cazalla: mats, just don't drop dead in front of PC with that page open eh

22:11:15 mats: "There are still too many people out there who think (or even insist) that static linking has benefits. This has never been the case and never will be the case." this guy...

22:17:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00039431 = 3.9825 BTC [-] {2}

22:37:26 trinque: a yard sale was selling a mac performa for five bucks... so now I own one of those

22:37:29 *: trinque shrugs

22:37:41 trinque: maybe fun for old mac games

22:38:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30388 @ 0.00040896 = 12.4275 BTC [+]

22:43:02 trinque: hypercard "player" ?

22:43:03 trinque: wtf is this shit

22:43:22 asciilifeform: trinque: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=658

22:43:24 assbot: Loper OS » How to Run HyperCard Under Emulation ... ( http://bit.ly/1QXIxoO )

22:43:25 asciilifeform: get the real one

22:43:36 asciilifeform: (as seen in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=568 )

22:43:38 assbot: Loper OS » Why Hypercard Had to Die ... ( http://bit.ly/1QXIx8g )

22:44:36 trinque: sweet, ty

22:46:26 cazalla: dat wicked sense of humour https://twitter.com/abuuomar428/status/614714028368232448

22:47:16 trinque: asciilifeform: it does seem as per your write-up, that there was a far more inventive apple once upon a time, which jobs put to a stop in favor of iOS appification

22:47:30 asciilifeform: trinque: hypercard was written by 1 guy

22:47:34 asciilifeform: (initially)

22:47:38 asciilifeform: so not 'more inventive apple'

22:47:44 trinque: ah

22:47:45 asciilifeform: just less actively retarded

22:48:27 trinque: would this one take that microexplorer card?

22:48:33 trinque: not that I've been able to find one anywhere online

22:49:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4150 @ 0.00039412 = 1.6356 BTC [-]

22:49:55 asciilifeform: microexplorer ?

22:50:35 trinque: lisp machine board for the mac of some sort

22:50:45 asciilifeform: you may be thinking of symbolics's 'macivory'

22:50:54 asciilifeform: you can get these from dave schmidt, virginia, usa

22:50:57 trinque: that's another I think

22:51:12 asciilifeform: 'explorer' was the crappy texas instruments lispm

22:51:20 asciilifeform: (they were among the original mit licensees, yes)

22:51:22 trinque: http://lemonodor.com/archives/2002/10/ti_microexplore.html

22:51:24 assbot: Lemonodor: TI microExplorer ... ( http://bit.ly/1RJR8qc )

22:51:26 trinque: ah k

22:51:30 asciilifeform: it is barely a step above the original 'cadr' machine

22:51:43 asciilifeform: 'macivory' was on the other hand pretty much as good as it got

22:51:52 trinque: only purpose of this archaelogical dig is my own historical education

22:51:53 asciilifeform: http://www.symbolics-dks.com << if you want one, talk to this fella

22:51:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RJR9KV )

22:52:02 asciilifeform: it'll be somewhere south of 2k usd

22:52:11 asciilifeform: (last i checked. which was some years ago.)

23:23:53 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I've used a couple. I like the strong lines they put in the grass, but they cut so short

23:42:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53347 @ 0.00040923 = 21.8312 BTC [+] {3}

23:48:26 trinque: ah turns out it had an original hypercard already on there from 1996

23:54:17 trinque: and flying toasters!

23:54:21 trinque: what else does a guy need