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Transcript for 29-05-2015, 749 lines:

00:00:25 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: noooo

00:00:46 ben_vulpes: have not, no.

00:01:55 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: sorta like the proverbial 'jet engine on a ford pinto' situation. << obligatory: http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/

00:05:42 ben_vulpes: "*** Update 7/18/06 *** You have to give the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the DMV) credit for creativity on this one. A DMV insider has disclosed to me that the DMV has made a formal request to a federal agency to rule if my Beetle constitutes a threat to national security based on what could happen if it got into the wrong hands."" << hah news to me since the last time i looked at the

00:05:45 ben_vulpes: thing

00:11:53 BingoBoingo: It's copper theft season again http://www.bnd.com/news/local/crime/article22358088.html

00:14:04 cazalla: half figured that was going to be an electrocution

00:14:27 asciilifeform: aaaaaand now for something completely different...

00:14:30 asciilifeform: achtung, panzers!

00:14:32 cazalla: common for people to get toasty'd on our rail way lines here trying to get at the copper

00:14:35 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al:

00:14:36 asciilifeform: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-May/000095.html

00:15:36 asciilifeform: (EXPERIMENTAL) IgProf Hooks Apparatus !

00:16:58 asciilifeform: mod6: you can use this to create a blockheight vs heap plot

00:17:16 asciilifeform: just call getinfo along with profileheapdump

00:18:01 mod6: oh, darn. ok im compiling right now with : bitcoin-v0_5_3_1-RELEASE + { OrphanageBurner } + { TX Orphanage Amputation }

00:18:15 mod6: think I should stop and compile that in as well?

00:18:16 asciilifeform: no hurry

00:18:30 mod6: well, was going to launch this for a full sync test.

00:18:44 mod6: nice tho!!

00:19:00 asciilifeform: (goes without saying that you need igprof on your box for this to work)

00:19:19 *: ben_vulpes dreams of a box beefy enough to run sync tests for every patch submitted

00:19:35 mod6: i've never used it. im guessing i can just compile/install via 3rd party package?

00:19:42 asciilifeform: mod6: aha

00:19:48 mod6: ok.

00:19:52 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: your hardware is not the limiting reactant here

00:20:00 asciilifeform: (the network is)

00:20:41 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: some several tb of disk would be nice

00:21:26 ben_vulpes: anyways, that's a nifty muntzing in the first one

00:21:57 asciilifeform: 2nd one is some dark magic, only serious sappers need apply

00:21:59 mod6: do you reccommend "Scientific Linux 5" or "Scientific Linux 6"?

00:22:08 asciilifeform: mod6: i have never seen, smelled, touched - either.

00:22:15 ben_vulpes: selinux? when what hum how?

00:22:28 mod6: oh, just looking for a version of IgProf to grab... maybe im looking at the wrong thing.

00:22:50 asciilifeform: http://igprof.org

00:23:50 mod6: yeah, thats where i am, i just wasnt on the DL page, nm.

00:29:16 asciilifeform: btw, after dumping a heap profile snapshot,

00:29:28 asciilifeform: igprof-analyse -d -v -g -r MEM_TOTAL heap1 > heap1.txt

00:29:32 asciilifeform: and so forth

00:29:39 asciilifeform: gives the plain text output

00:30:05 asciilifeform: (just like many other profilers, this one craps out somewhat terse encoded transcript by default)

00:31:20 asciilifeform: this gives MEM_TOTAL (how much churned)

00:31:30 asciilifeform: other options (e.g., MEM_LIVE) described in manual.

00:32:27 mod6: ok i'll come back to that, it's like a whole process to build that thing.

00:32:32 asciilifeform: http://igprof.org/analysis.html

00:33:32 asciilifeform: 'MEM_LIVE records the ?live? memory ? memory that hasn?t been freed. If the profile statistics file you are processing came from the end of the application?s run, this will be the memory leaked by the job. If the profile statistics file was triggered during the running of the job, it is a snapshot of the heap, i.e. a heap profile. The statistic is accurate (not statistical) and records the number of bytes allocated a

00:33:32 asciilifeform: nd the number of calls involved.'

00:34:56 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/blockheight-115500_igprof_mem_live.txt

00:35:56 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu, et al: ^^^^ sample output

00:36:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44000 @ 0.00030928 = 13.6083 BTC [-] {3}

00:38:20 asciilifeform: ^ both orphanage-destroyers applied for this example run

00:40:20 *: mod6 looks

00:40:39 mod6: oh wow, nice.

00:40:46 asciilifeform: aha.

00:40:51 asciilifeform: and you can get these -during runtime- now

00:40:59 asciilifeform: instead of waiting for the thing to die, as in valgrind.

00:41:21 mod6: :]

00:41:28 mod6: very cool

00:42:53 asciilifeform: also the thing appears to have better coverage of dynamic libs

00:43:05 asciilifeform: (if you have libs with debug symbols, will display line #s therein as well)

00:44:47 asciilifeform: iirc there might be some fancy html-output mode also. but - have not tried this yet.

00:47:02 mod6: good deal.

00:47:23 mod6: i'll work on building this tool here this weekend.

00:48:13 mod6: well, maybe after this sync is done with these 2 patches anyway. gotta still write this SoBA yet.

00:56:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24969 @ 0.00030496 = 7.6145 BTC [-]

01:04:25 danielpbarron: !up referredbyloper

01:08:05 ben_vulpes: quick poll: who writes in cursive?

01:08:32 *: asciilifeform would, but had handwriting neural circuitry utterly nuked by alphabet switch in childhood

01:08:45 *: asciilifeform now can only write in the worst possible print

01:09:22 asciilifeform: interestingly, the longer i go without writing by hand, the more this part of brain rots

01:09:35 asciilifeform: i even found myself, as of 4-5 yrs ago, often writing the 2nd letter of a word first

01:09:56 asciilifeform: this -never- happened at any point when i actually picked up a pen on a daily basis (school)

01:11:17 referredbyloper: The cancer of bureaucracy: how it will destroy science, medicine, education; and eventually everything else. http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.mehy.2009.11.038

01:14:16 ben_vulpes: referredbyloper: and who are you?

01:14:31 ben_vulpes: and hyu with that auto-downloading pdf

01:15:23 ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> interestingly, the longer i go without writing by hand, the more this part of brain rots << expected behavior

01:15:37 ben_vulpes: i refuse to take notes on a computer

01:16:01 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: is there a russian equivalent to cursive?

01:16:14 ben_vulpes: of course there is

01:17:44 decimation: asciilifeform: you can get some of this kind of data with 'perf'

01:17:50 decimation: which comes with the kernel

01:18:01 decimation: but not the details

01:18:53 mod6: asciilifeform: full sync of bitcoin-v0_5_3_1-RELEASE + { OrphanageBurner } + { TX Orphanage Amputation } underway

01:25:28 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-05-2015#1146983 < primarily it bought a whole pile of sunk costs in existing designs, plus serfs who know how to manipulate the tools

01:25:28 assbot: Logged on 28-05-2015 14:52:47; pete_dushenski: "Broadcom is known as a fabless company. It outsources all semiconductor manufacturing to Asian merchant foundries, such as GlobalFoundries, Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation, Silterra, TSMC, and United Microelectronics Corporation." << ahaha. so what the fuck did $37 bn even buy ?

01:26:37 decimation: but when you consier that apple bought renasas for $0.48 bn, you gotta wonder if they are overpaying

01:28:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37000 @ 0.00031052 = 11.4892 BTC [+]

01:30:49 mod6: <+asciilifeform> re: memory hunger: anyone investigated effect of https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E17076_04/html/api_reference/CXX/envset_memory_max.html ? << I haven't, but I certainly wanna try this out.

01:31:50 mod6: What's the memory cap that you wanna use on a pogo? 256Mb?

01:31:50 danielpbarron: !up rwg

01:31:50 *: mod6 reminds himself to setup that pogo

01:35:18 williamdunne: !up referredbyloper

01:35:25 rwg: danielpbarron, yo

01:36:41 decimation: !s referredbyloper

01:36:42 assbot: 10 results for 'referredbyloper' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=referredbyloper

01:37:07 decimation: http://www.reed.com/blog-dpr/?page_id=6 < "One project where my friend and officemate Steven T. Kent (now chief scientist and vice president at BBN, and a chief advisor to NSA) and I lost was our strong argument to put mandatory end-to-end encryption into TCP (and adaptations of the ideas to UDP-based protocols, such as RTP, hich I worked out but abandoned). "

01:38:07 mod6: asciilifeform: in the igprof_mem_live output, is the "Total" column in aggregate bytes - a sum of all bytes from the call's of said function?

01:38:07 decimation: "Steve?s design was rejected, not because it was unsound, but because NSA did not want to see ANY encryption work going on in the public domain ARPA project, some say because they did not want to see the world be ?too secure? by default. (Rivest and friends had just invented RSA, and the government was trying to declare it Top Secret, then later prohibited under ITAR munitions control export laws)."

01:38:17 danielpbarron: hi rwg !

01:38:29 danielpbarron: do you know how to gpg ?

01:45:42 decimation: mod6: here's how to read the output http://igprof.org/text-output-format.html

01:46:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36450 @ 0.00031052 = 11.3185 BTC [+]

01:46:42 decimation: by my eye, it looks to me that ThreadMessageHandler(void*) is a turd

01:46:42 mod6: thx decimation

01:50:11 mod6: have you looked at ThreadMessageHandler2 ?

01:51:44 mod6: wait, these are not just bytes allocated during calls, these are LEAKED BYTES?!

01:52:49 decimation: actually CBlock::AddToBlockIndex(unsigned int, unsigned int) [10]

01:52:52 decimation: yes

01:53:57 mod6: lolol that's horrendus. ProcessBlock leaked 26`847`114 bytes over 346`507 calls?!

01:54:20 decimation: yes but noted that the leaks were all in its children

01:54:34 mod6: asciilifeform: how long (how many blocks) was bitcoind sync'ing while you took this sample?

01:54:45 decimation: if you follow that trail you find it's AddToBlockIndex

01:54:53 mod6: ahh. ok

01:54:54 *: mod6 looks

01:56:17 mod6: asciilifeform: oh nm, 115500, didn't see that in the URL

01:57:24 mod6: decimation: i see now

01:57:27 mod6: 26'370'420 / 26'370'420 346'503 / 346'503 CBlock::AcceptBlock() [11]

01:57:30 mod6: leads to

01:57:50 mod6: 26'370'420 / 26'370'612 346'503 / 346'506 CBlock::AddToBlockIndex(unsigned int, unsigned int) [10]

01:58:03 decimation: There is all kinds of allocation that happens in that fuction

01:58:35 decimation: this makes me wanna burn std::lib and boost

01:59:47 mod6: !up ascii_modem

02:00:03 ascii_modem: nonono not leaks

02:00:10 ascii_modem: plz read manual

02:00:24 mod6: aight, me goes back to it.

02:00:31 ascii_modem: there are no leaks in the usual sense

02:00:47 ascii_modem: the flat graph from mod6 tells us this

02:00:53 ascii_modem: thinkaboutit

02:01:31 ascii_modem: as for the memlimit thing, it has to do with bdb only!

02:01:49 ascii_modem: and 256m is insane, we only have 128 total

02:02:05 mod6: ah, ok, couldn't remember the amt.

02:02:12 ascii_modem: db should't get more than 4 or at most 8

02:02:16 mod6: and yea, just for db.

02:02:23 mod6: ok

02:02:48 *: mod6 reads

02:03:04 ascii_modem: and - plz remember how to read profilers - the 'turd' is merely the procedure that is at the root of call graph tree

02:03:36 ascii_modem: so naturally will appear 'heavy' because 'all roads lead to rome'

02:03:44 mod6: yah, werd.

02:07:44 danielpbarron: !up rwg

02:10:22 decimation: asciilifeform: all roads lead to home, yes, but home is a good place to start examining each potential pathway

02:14:55 decimation: mod6: so you did a graph of vmstat calls? Is that what ascii is talking about?

02:23:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28472 @ 0.00031217 = 8.8881 BTC [+]

02:28:50 mod6: decimation: ah, no. graphs are from nmon. there is a document that goes along with all of that. it's in the mailing list and in the http://thebitcoin.foundation/test/perf/ root

02:29:50 mod6: http://thebitcoin.foundation/test/perf/nmon_tests_201505.txt

02:30:50 decimation: so the goal here is to reduce memory use, not to find leaks?

02:30:50 mod6: is that directed at me with my perf tests? or at asciilifeform?

02:30:50 decimation: I guess at ascii, why he bothered with igprof

02:31:05 decimation: presumably the 'leaks' were found by igprof because he killed it after running a certain time, so memory wasn't freed?

02:31:12 mod6: yeah, im not even sure what i'm looking at anymore with that igprof stuff yet.

02:31:26 mod6: i was just getting started reading and got pulled away for a minute.

02:31:56 mod6: but as far as the nmon tests, I wanted to system level profile the entire sync process -- get some visuals, see what we're looking at as far as overall system usage, etc.

02:32:03 decimation: it defintely thinks those areas are leaks, but that might be because of how it was killed, not because it was actually leaked (in the sense of the pointer was lost)

02:32:32 mod6: yeah, im not sure. i need to read more there.

02:32:39 decimation: I see what ascii means about the flat graph (memory.png on the orphanage thermonuke)

02:33:34 mod6: in addition to the valgrind tests that ascii did earlier this month, i was going to dig into some of that myself in june.

02:33:42 mod6: and now, maybe learn the ropes on igprof.

02:33:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00032704 = 6.4754 BTC [+]

02:34:30 mod6: <+decimation> I see what ascii means about the flat graph (memory.png on the orphanage thermonuke) << ahh

02:35:30 asciilifeform: decimation: where do you see leaks ?

02:35:51 asciilifeform: and i will add, nothing was killed, that thing is running even now, without interruption

02:36:37 decimation: the igprof documentation says that the report shows memory leaks

02:36:59 asciilifeform: decimation: all i noticed is the same 'pocket change' leaks as valgrind shows

02:37:07 decimation: "MEM_LIVE records the ?live? memory ? memory that hasn?t been freed. If the profile statistics file you are processing came from the end of the application?s run, this will be the memory leaked by the job. If the profile statistics file was triggered during the running of the job, it is a snapshot of the heap, i.e. a heap profile. The statistic is accurate (not statistical) and records the number of bytes allocated and the number of c

02:37:11 mod6: so the docs say, "MEM_LIVE records the ``live'' memory -- memory that hasn't been freed. If the profile statistics file you are processing came from the end

02:37:17 mod6: haha. was just typing that out ^^

02:37:18 asciilifeform: well no shit it wasn't freed

02:37:20 asciilifeform: it is in use !

02:37:23 asciilifeform: as in, actually alive

02:37:32 decimation: ah so it wasn't killed, that makes sense

02:37:35 asciilifeform: this is not valgrind! it does not need the process to terminate.

02:37:49 mod6: cool.

02:37:53 *: mod6 goes back to reading

02:38:05 decimation: asciilifeform: so is your goal to trim out all the 'inactive' memory use?

02:38:23 decimation: so that it fits more comfortably in the pogo?

02:38:32 asciilifeform: decimation: my goal is to get it to sit down in 120M or so.

02:38:36 asciilifeform: whatever it takes.

02:39:09 asciilifeform: there is no acceptable reason for the thing not to go in this very generous box.

02:39:30 asciilifeform: in fact, i want it in 32M.

02:39:37 decimation: heh. you realize this means you are gonna probably have to discard all the C++ shit

02:39:54 asciilifeform: decimation: aaaaand without any major rewrite.

02:40:15 asciilifeform: just by taking every piece of retarded cruft and shooting it in the head.

02:40:26 decimation: yeah there's tons of cruft in there, no doubt

02:40:34 asciilifeform: every piece of 'orphan' nonsense, where thing works 100% as well with it gone

02:40:42 asciilifeform: every kind of cache

02:40:58 asciilifeform: every idiot dependency that just adds retardation (e.g., dns)

02:41:16 decimation: resolving the fixed hostnames?

02:41:20 asciilifeform: every piece of shit that gets stored & kept around for no reason

02:41:22 asciilifeform: fuck the fixed hostnames

02:41:29 asciilifeform: didn't i kill those already ?

02:42:42 decimation: I'm not sure, I need to get back on the patch train

02:43:01 mod6: <+ascii_modem> nonono not leaks << ok i see, so with -mp in the MEM_LIVE output we're just seeing a live heap. not leaks as the other doc page said.

02:43:17 mod6: <+ascii_modem> there are no leaks in the usual sense <+ascii_modem> the flat graph from mod6 tells us this << right

02:43:34 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/1172660_mem_live.txt

02:44:34 asciilifeform: and

02:44:34 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/1172660_mem_max.txt

02:45:34 asciilifeform: ^ where it is now

02:45:34 mod6: that other page about "text-output-format.html" threw me off.

02:45:34 *: mod6 looks

02:45:34 asciilifeform: l0l extra 0 in there

02:45:34 asciilifeform: rather, extra 1

02:45:34 asciilifeform: 172660, meant.

02:45:34 decimation: asciilifeform: does it slow the processing down (igprof)?

02:45:34 asciilifeform: decimation: not noticeably

02:45:34 decimation: interesting.

02:45:34 asciilifeform: then again, it is running on a very generously oversized box

02:46:32 asciilifeform: ;;calc 144897106 - 74026911

02:46:32 gribble: 70870195

02:46:39 asciilifeform: where the hell did -these- go ?

02:46:51 asciilifeform: this is -exactly- my complaint with valgrind.

02:47:29 mod6: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/172660_mem_max.txt << 404

02:48:29 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/1172660_mem_max.txt

02:49:29 asciilifeform: yes, it's a typo

02:49:29 mod6: OH, i didn't actually need to take the extranious '1' out. gotcha

02:49:29 asciilifeform: i'd fix it, but these links are not intended as permanent

02:49:29 asciilifeform: i want everybody to try this at home.

02:50:08 decimation: asciilifeform: your complaint is that valgrind doesn't catch all the memory use?

02:50:12 asciilifeform: aha

02:50:22 asciilifeform: trivially verified with pmap

02:52:10 asciilifeform: let's put it another way:

02:52:27 asciilifeform: there is absolutely no reason for bitcoind to ever use more than at most a few MB more than when it first boots.

02:53:14 asciilifeform: is there even any reason ever to keep more than one or two (second being, one that is in the process of load/verify) blocks in ram at one time

02:54:56 decimation: asciilifeform: it appears a big chunk of the memory in use is tied up in the CBlockIndex class

02:55:28 asciilifeform: decimation: that might be the bdb cache

02:55:32 asciilifeform: (see earlier link)

02:55:46 asciilifeform: it does -not- appear to grow significantly as the thing runs

02:59:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13748 @ 0.00032704 = 4.4961 BTC [+]

03:04:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73528 @ 0.00031891 = 23.4488 BTC [-]

03:06:25 mircea_popescu: o look at that

03:11:59 mircea_popescu: mthreat interesting. so basically they run them looser and with a momentum-consuming groove in one spot.

03:15:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is awake !

03:15:52 *: asciilifeform waits for mircea_popescu to eat the log

03:16:53 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> why not just rewrite the memory allocation engine at this point, asciilifeform << this is two degrees of magnitude easier, at least.

03:17:38 asciilifeform: none of it is hard.

03:17:39 asciilifeform: but,

03:17:41 asciilifeform: magical allocators are entirely the wrong place to begin.

03:17:48 asciilifeform: that is how you get shitgnomatrons in the first place

03:18:00 asciilifeform: (that is, by plastering over retardation with magic)

03:18:25 mircea_popescu: lol "dark market coupons"

03:18:35 asciilifeform: if, -after we nuke all of the powerranger cruft- - we end up having to go there - then we go there.

03:18:36 asciilifeform: not before.

03:19:42 mod6: makes sense.

03:20:01 mircea_popescu: cazalla i think she has a point actually. deed the pages, that's proof enough. and as the derps probably don't know (or don't know they should know), we might even catch a diddled page. maybe.

03:21:49 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "as far as we know" tm, there's no effect.

03:23:02 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: which ?

03:24:36 mircea_popescu: the berkley db mem allocation

03:25:06 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i get a ballooning all the way to ~23M during first few hours of runtime, where it stays (based on pmap data)

03:25:13 asciilifeform: just for bdb

03:25:30 mircea_popescu: i think it pre-allocates locks or something

03:26:12 asciilifeform: according to docs, this is not a hard necessity.

03:26:25 mircea_popescu: well no, just how it does it

03:27:04 asciilifeform: there is a hard-ram-bound option, presently unused, and entirely separate from the locks constant. see link in log.

03:27:04 scoopbot_revived: Former US House Speaker Indicted on Attempting to Evade Financial Surveillance http://qntra.net/2015/05/former-us-house-speaker-indicted-on-attempting-to-evade-financial-surveillance/

03:31:48 mircea_popescu: decimation rather old news at this point, the entire "nsa hoped and lost"

03:32:22 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147258 << welcome to "we're improving bitcoin" bitcoin.

03:32:22 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 01:53:57; mod6: lolol that's horrendus. ProcessBlock leaked 26`847`114 bytes over 346`507 calls?!

03:32:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plz read log. these are not leaks...

03:32:50 mircea_popescu: im parsing!

03:33:15 mod6: :] i read a doc from the igprof site that had me confused on what I was looking at.

03:33:20 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147270 << an' use what ?

03:33:20 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 01:58:35; decimation: this makes me wanna burn std::lib and boost

03:34:36 mircea_popescu: oh okay i see.

03:34:56 mircea_popescu: somehow i thought we're still looking at valgrind stuffls.

03:35:12 decimation: mircea_popescu: yeah but the interesting thing is to see how they were involved in the early creation of internet protocols

03:35:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nah this is an entirely other animal, 'igprof.' takes malloc byte counts from a living (!) process

03:35:43 asciilifeform: which is running still.

03:35:55 mircea_popescu: by now i heard the "nsa didn't want strong encryption at all, and lobbied against inclusion of anything like it were microsoft on a bender" from so many people it's settled

03:36:03 asciilifeform: to do this, you need http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-May/000095.html

03:37:03 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26100 @ 0.00031228 = 8.1505 BTC [-] {2}

03:37:03 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah i see. no clear call on whether they were leaked or not yet.

03:37:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: snapshot lets you take counts of live allocs as often as you like

03:37:03 mircea_popescu: yea

03:37:16 asciilifeform: any that monotonically increases is candidate for a leak. but mod6's test (and mine) suggests that there are no longer leaks in the classical sense

03:37:35 asciilifeform: in that the total footprint does not exceed a certain size

03:38:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47622 @ 0.00031283 = 14.8976 BTC [+]

03:38:23 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147327 << the many things alf wants to fit in his mind, and the place where we find his brain is actually 32mb memory.

03:38:23 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 02:39:30; asciilifeform: in fact, i want it in 32M.

03:38:29 decimation: they are 'leaks' in the sense that the memory is in use and isn't free

03:38:43 asciilifeform: decimation: 'leak' has a precise technical definition

03:39:06 asciilifeform: which is, memory which ought to have been freed, but can -no longer ever be-

03:39:46 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i want the thing to shoehorn into, e.g., 'hootoo tripmate'

03:39:51 asciilifeform: which comes with 32MB

03:41:23 mircea_popescu: aha

03:41:34 mircea_popescu: and he's not into anal sex

03:41:42 mircea_popescu: he just likes shoving hot rods into tiny crevices.

03:41:44 BingoBoingo: !b 5

03:41:45 assbot: Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/1NTMMD7.txt )

03:41:58 asciilifeform: to each man, his favourite crevice

03:42:56 BingoBoingo: damn too early

03:43:05 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147415 << this is beautifully and amply documented in 'the electronic privacy papers' by (yes) schneier (pre-lobotomy)

03:43:05 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 03:35:55; mircea_popescu: by now i heard the "nsa didn't want strong encryption at all, and lobbied against inclusion of anything like it were microsoft on a bender" from so many people it's settled

03:43:06 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo old age problems

03:43:10 mircea_popescu: used to be too late.

03:43:32 asciilifeform: i have the dead tree

03:43:45 asciilifeform: (one nice thing about dead trees is that they cannot be doctored remotely)

03:44:33 asciilifeform: 'the great soviet encyclopaedia' and the 'corrections' mailed to owners, complete with razor for slicing out 'unpersons', notwithstanding

03:45:21 asciilifeform: (btw it was a very spiffy encyclopaedia and unjustly gets shat on today)

03:46:14 asciilifeform: incidentally, it would be a mistake to conclude that nsa was specifically raging against rsa and only it

03:46:25 asciilifeform: but more broadly against crypto research outside of the castle walls, as a class

03:47:07 BingoBoingo: Well, CPU time used to be expensive for kleptocrats too

03:47:08 asciilifeform: in late '80s - early '90s, laughably weak symmetric crypto (even rotor machines !) were still in use worldwide, for instance

03:48:11 asciilifeform: a great many ciphertrons sold by nato cocksucker nations (western europe) were actually electronicized versions of 'enigma'-style rotors

03:49:17 decimation: asciilifeform: your definition of 'memory leak' seems to be narrower than common parlance

03:49:40 asciilifeform: decimation: common parlance, as always, is uselessly broad

03:50:00 decimation: yes, point taken. but what do you call memory that might be a leak, or might not?

03:50:22 asciilifeform: decimation: you call it 'i need to instrument the thing in real time and find out'

03:50:38 asciilifeform: alternatively 'i need to fit the code in head'

03:51:14 asciilifeform: the latter is the only reasonable goal, and the only reasonable purpose of the former is to advance it

03:53:16 decimation: asciilifeform: http://www.theamphour.com/247-an-interview-with-voja-antonic-gerontogenous-galaksija-genesis/ < that podcast is an interview with voja antonic, who invented an 8-bit 'home computer' that was published in a magazine in yugoslavia

03:54:16 asciilifeform: decimation: i think every sovblok pesthole had at least two dozen homebrew published z80 things

03:54:21 asciilifeform: (on top of the mass-produced sinclair clones)

03:54:43 decimation: in it, he says that he feels that code that is compiled and assembled from a higher level language (higher than assembly) isn't 'his'

03:54:58 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I think in this case it was a z80 clone

03:55:34 decimation: apparently in the yugoslav case it was because it was illegal to buy a foreign device above a certain dollar value - but you could buy the parts and assemble yourself

03:56:14 asciilifeform: they had genuine z80 !?

03:56:25 asciilifeform: bought with dollars ?!

03:56:45 decimation: now, thinking about what the assembly from (say bitcoind) would look like - our slavic human assembler would think that whoever wrote the code was afflicted with a case of 'word salad' madness

03:56:57 decimation: asciilifeform: I think he said he bought with marks

03:57:07 decimation: and yes, apparently parts were available

03:57:19 asciilifeform: decimation: reading disasm of cpp crapolade is a misery

03:57:25 *: asciilifeform does it regularly, does not relish

03:57:52 decimation: right, so 'fits in head' fails in all languages higher than assembly, on the c machine

03:58:11 decimation: because it's the bedrock yo

03:58:39 asciilifeform: decimation has a point in that even a very trivial cpp proggy can have very peculiar manifest behaviour

03:58:53 asciilifeform: even aside from cryptozoological animals like gcc errata

03:59:29 decimation: right, the 'value' of c++ is that you can 'forget' about the crap like 'malloc' 'free' etc

03:59:49 decimation: but these are precisely what you want to 'fit in head'

04:00:32 decimation: how to fit std::map and std::vector in head? bastards designed by committee

04:00:41 asciilifeform: which is why i think that at a certain point the advantage of a 'bitcoin' which can be -understood- will outweigh the danger of failing to enumerate every possible corner case of the original turd when crafting the ada safety-critical bitcoinatron

04:01:35 decimation: yes. but until that point comes, I agree that there's alot of cruft in there - there's no reason why working memory needs to be gigabytes

04:03:28 asciilifeform: we'll know when it comes when the folks who have skin in the game say it did..

04:03:52 asciilifeform: (see excellent old thread re: this subject)

04:04:49 decimation: the folks being everyone holding bitcoin (with expectation of trading them for something)

04:06:51 decimation: asciilifeform: amusingly the yugoslav guy said that 'his' design included an audio cassette for program storage (using simple FSK I presume)

04:06:58 asciilifeform: that was sop

04:07:05 asciilifeform: where else are you gonna store

04:07:23 decimation: he said that the yugoslav radio station would actually interrupt music broadcast to send - fsk encodings of z80 games

04:07:54 *: asciilifeform has trouble believing that this came to any good unless you lived next door to the station

04:08:17 decimation: well, if the SNR was high and the bitrate was low, it would work well enough

04:08:42 decimation: I suspect it was something like 300 baud "bell 202" type modem

04:09:13 *: asciilifeform as a boy sometimes listened to his brother's 'bk-0010' tapes

04:09:30 asciilifeform: we didn't have the thing at home. just the tapes

04:10:11 asciilifeform: (his school didn't have tape decks, you had to bring yer own if family had one)

04:10:58 decimation: heh interesting

04:11:12 decimation: Yeah before flash and cheap hard drives/floppy drives your only option was tape

04:11:18 decimation: or 'prom'

04:11:37 asciilifeform: tape was the mega-storage because just about everyone could beg/borrow/steal a deck

04:11:45 asciilifeform: no special hardware needed

04:12:22 decimation: yeah also common and cheap I guess

04:13:01 asciilifeform: incidentally, long after connecting analogue tape decks to computer was a forgotten misery in the west, ru folks were connecting vcr and getting respectable (10-20G) backup

04:13:05 asciilifeform: as late as early 2000s

04:14:14 asciilifeform: vhs tape can hold a surprising amount (helical scan head!) but tends to rot rather quickly

04:15:04 decimation: yeah you would need heavy forward error correction

04:15:30 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> which is why i think that at a certain point >> that point is conceivably after our times.

04:15:44 asciilifeform: definitely after my time.

04:16:05 decimation: mircea_popescu: you think folks will make do with shit c++ code for our lifetime?

04:16:07 mircea_popescu: <decimation> he said that the yugoslav radio station would actually interrupt music broadcast to send - fsk encodings of z80 games << i had games i had downloaded off the natl tv station.

04:16:11 mircea_popescu: CRACKED games.

04:16:18 decimation: heh that's amusing

04:16:21 decimation: for c64?

04:16:36 asciilifeform: decimation: c64 was not a z80 box

04:16:39 mircea_popescu: for tim-s

04:16:42 mircea_popescu: which was a z80 clone.

04:16:44 decimation: yeah I know

04:16:50 decimation: ah interesting

04:17:30 decimation: c64 had a version of 6502 like apple II

04:17:45 mircea_popescu: this was the 48kb + 16kb for basic interpreter thing

04:18:02 mircea_popescu: but you could also wipe the 16kb if you never called the thing, via DMA of the time

04:18:13 mircea_popescu: user could poke arbitrary ram

04:18:18 mircea_popescu: (instruction being called... POKE)

04:18:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interpreter wasn't in rom on your thing ?

04:18:32 mircea_popescu: the notion of "allocation" being unknown. of course it's allocated - the machine's on isn't it ?

04:18:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it was in rom and copied to the ram at startup iirc

04:18:49 asciilifeform: ah

04:18:53 mircea_popescu: not run FROM rom

04:19:37 decimation: from the comments on that yugoslav interview: "Also, there was not a ?ban on importing computers? in former Yugoslavia ? it was a by-product of a (stupid) government policy of trying to stop the drain of foreign currency. The customs law prevented a legal import of any goods that cost more than 100 DM (German marks, about 50 Euros in todays money). "

04:19:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33139 @ 0.00031476 = 10.4308 BTC [-]

04:19:57 asciilifeform: exercise for readers: describe -why- it was common (as is today) not to run directly from rom.

04:20:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'peek' and 'poke' were sop on c64 and most micros of the time, aha

04:21:14 asciilifeform: the two most useful 'basic' keywords, yes.

04:21:22 asciilifeform: arguably none of the others needed to be learned..

04:22:22 decimation: asciilifeform: was it because loading the contents of the rom into ram allowed a single address space?

04:22:38 asciilifeform: decimation: it was a single address space no matter what

04:22:58 asciilifeform: (not one of these things had an mmu, nor was there any conceivable need for such a thing on a single-process os)

04:23:18 asciilifeform: the reason is that you can do local vars ('static' to a 'c' programmer) in ram

04:23:41 asciilifeform: but in rom, you need a ram stack/heap and can't simply shit where you eat

04:24:03 decimation: it seems that you could pull this off

04:24:10 decimation: but it would be highly non-portable

04:24:13 asciilifeform: you can - but it takes planning

04:24:52 asciilifeform: x86 never runs from rom. not even on warmup when sdram waitstate timer is not yet initialized

04:25:00 asciilifeform: (how? 'cache as ram' mode of x86 cpu)

04:26:12 asciilifeform: hypothetically, one could run an x86 box without any ram inserted, given a clever bios made for this occasion.

04:26:48 asciilifeform: i thought about actually making this, some years ago, as it had useful applications

04:26:51 decimation: especially with modern cpus that have tons of cache

04:27:02 asciilifeform: (cpu is warm and 'remanence' is a non-issue. think, crypto.)

04:27:22 decimation: plus low power, small form factor

04:27:28 asciilifeform: and no wait-cycles

04:27:37 asciilifeform: good for data-compact number crunching problems

04:27:51 asciilifeform: (of the kind i was working on with al schwartz and others)

04:27:58 decimation: to the poor slav z80 coder, the 'naked' xeon has embarassingly rich resources

04:28:29 asciilifeform: hell, the 8MB cache of my ancient 'opteron' is more than i had in my 486dx2

04:28:35 asciilifeform: (of total ram)

04:29:52 decimation: asciilifeform: ideally you would want to connect this naked cpu to others via the memory bus

04:30:06 decimation: but God help the poor soul who would try

04:30:09 asciilifeform: nah we're talking about off-the-shelf iron

04:30:16 asciilifeform: and making best use thereof

04:30:36 asciilifeform: but i have thought about connecting generic x86 boxen via the ram slots

04:30:38 decimation: well, off the shelf you could attach to a good 10gigE card with netboot

04:30:54 asciilifeform: $$$$$$$

04:30:58 decimation: yeah exactly

04:31:17 decimation: it would be cheap to use a 1 gige, but it would also have sad throughput

04:31:29 asciilifeform: ethernet, also, has ludicrous cpu overhead

04:31:43 asciilifeform: so the maximal throughputs are virtually never reached in practice

04:31:48 decimation: yeah, especially if ip stack

04:33:31 asciilifeform: (connection via ram slots is not, as it may appear, lunacy, but could be done with fpga, which would pretend to be a slice of sdram to two boxes at the same time, ignoring refresh cycles and managing locking somehow)

04:33:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23850 @ 0.00032766 = 7.8147 BTC [+] {2}

04:35:17 decimation: yeah I can imagine it for a pair of cpus, but what if you wanted N cpus?

04:35:20 asciilifeform: there was an outfit which sold something quite like this (fpga on sdram stick) and even one in the shape of a cpu, which could sit down in ordinary cpu socket on multisocket mb

04:35:22 decimation: I suppose a ring of some sort

04:35:25 asciilifeform: but it got nsa'd

04:35:52 asciilifeform: ring, yes

04:35:57 asciilifeform: or preferably 2d fabric

04:36:02 asciilifeform: (compass arrows)

04:36:12 decimation: yeah

04:36:16 asciilifeform: hell, crossbars.

04:36:42 asciilifeform: i assume that the folks who a) want this b) can afford it --- have it.

04:36:51 asciilifeform: as always.

04:39:37 decimation: yeah, but if they can afford it they can also probably also afford to design a custom motherboard

04:39:52 asciilifeform: economy of scale

04:40:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38444 @ 0.0003267 = 12.5597 BTC [-]

04:40:09 asciilifeform: can get that many more generic turdboards for same price

04:40:23 asciilifeform: ever since the '1024 chickens' transition, that is generally how it was done

04:42:00 asciilifeform: folks with infinite money do bake own mb, yes

04:42:09 asciilifeform: but even there, there are not ten thousand on one board

04:42:15 asciilifeform: usually there is some interconnection bus.

04:42:33 asciilifeform: (between boards)

04:42:45 decimation: the original 'cray' machines used differential ecl lines

04:42:51 asciilifeform: 'hippi' aha

04:42:54 asciilifeform: or what was it.

04:46:13 decimation: "Each cable between the modules was a twisted pair, cut to a specific length in order to guarantee the signals arrived at precisely the right time and minimize electrical reflection. Each signal produced by the ECL circuitry was a differential pair, so the signals were balanced. " < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-1

04:47:19 asciilifeform: exotic then, but today every piece of shit lcd is plugged in through something entirely like this.

04:47:53 decimation: heh yeah. or pcie

04:48:18 asciilifeform: just about anything.

04:48:23 asciilifeform: try find a pc mb without 'meanders'

04:49:48 decimation: well, with clock rates above 500 mhz, your pcb starts to look like an rf transmission line

05:12:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45800 @ 0.00032774 = 15.0105 BTC [+]

05:24:56 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> arguably none of the others needed to be learned.. randomize usr eh.

05:34:06 mircea_popescu: "and managing locking somehow" win of the day award lol

05:34:33 mircea_popescu: alternatively, it would be 72 cubits high, translucent, ageless, nonmenstruating and deliver pregnancy to term within the day

05:38:26 mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/stoya/status/604010790950150144

05:42:43 mircea_popescu: mostly because http://trenchcoatx.com/about lulz. "We believe in high quality product, fair prices for the consumer, and fair pay for the people who work for us. Right now we?re in beta, figuring out how these values fit into today?s adult entertainment industry. "

05:43:43 mircea_popescu: glhf. the problems of being born in the 80s, ie, too late.

06:07:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4306 @ 0.0003267 = 1.4068 BTC [-]

06:38:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57650 @ 0.00031605 = 18.2203 BTC [-] {3}

06:45:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32301 @ 0.00031404 = 10.1438 BTC [-]

06:47:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74936 @ 0.00031404 = 23.5329 BTC [-]

06:51:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59582 @ 0.00031404 = 18.7111 BTC [-]

07:04:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71350 @ 0.0003135 = 22.3682 BTC [-] {4}

07:11:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37600 @ 0.00031331 = 11.7805 BTC [-] {2}

07:12:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36000 @ 0.00031104 = 11.1974 BTC [-]

07:27:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53850 @ 0.00030766 = 16.5675 BTC [-] {3}

07:42:01 punkman: http://arstechnica.co.uk/business/2015/05/data-furnaces-arrive-in-europe-free-heating-if-you-have-fibre-internet/

07:50:07 mircea_popescu: amusingly, this is EXACTLY how communists ran their industry in romania of the 60s

07:50:17 mircea_popescu: "free heating if you live next to a mfg plant!"

07:51:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.00031723 = 4.0923 BTC [+]

07:52:39 mircea_popescu: "eRadiators makes the data more secure: "It becomes nearly impossible to know what data is where, when it is there and how to get to it," Nerdalize's Florian Schneider told the BBC."

07:52:42 mircea_popescu: yeah, right.

07:52:47 mircea_popescu: and i have a bridge to sell.

08:02:18 punkman: I wonder how they'll keep the workload at 1kw when the box doesn't have work to do, run some useless code?

08:03:37 punkman: maybe cpu-mine bitcoin for a couple satoshis :P

08:10:02 punkman: mircea_popescu: "free heating if you live next to a mfg plant!" << "Academica has installed a new 2MW database server centre ... Water warmed while cooling the servers will go on to provide heat for 500 homes or 1,000 flats ... After the heat is extracted, the water will be recycled back to cool the servers again."

08:10:17 punkman: not a bad approach if you don't have to suffer the smog I guess

08:12:02 punkman: !up Vexual

08:13:36 Vexual: lol tamper proof, not in my loungeroom

08:14:32 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 119250 @ 0.00032727 = 39.0269 BTC [+] {4}

08:15:15 punkman: and some frenchies with the same idea http://www.qarnot-computing.com/technology

08:20:37 Vexual: id put a little rainbow sticker on a kb and get alf and mp 'round with a case of cognac

08:21:14 Vexual: tell em its a z80

08:25:41 scoopbot_revived: Planes, trains, automobiles, and atomic dirigibles der Schweiz. http://www.contravex.com/2015/05/29/planes-trains-automobiles-and-atomic-dirigibles-der-schweiz/

08:43:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31700 @ 0.00031666 = 10.0381 BTC [-]

09:04:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29934 @ 0.00031538 = 9.4406 BTC [-] {2}

09:48:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00032869 = 5.1933 BTC [+]

09:52:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31458 @ 0.00033063 = 10.401 BTC [+] {4}

10:00:11 jurov: <ben_vulpes> quick poll: who writes in cursive? << i do, but for internal use only. block letters otherwise

10:10:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29187 @ 0.00033108 = 9.6632 BTC [+]

10:38:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8432 @ 0.00032533 = 2.7432 BTC [-]

10:50:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30300 @ 0.00032866 = 9.9584 BTC [+] {2}

11:02:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26200 @ 0.00033153 = 8.6861 BTC [+] {2}

11:39:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8850 @ 0.00032712 = 2.895 BTC [-]

11:42:38 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34900 @ 0.00032712 = 11.4165 BTC [-]

11:47:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42800 @ 0.00032449 = 13.8882 BTC [-]

11:52:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53750 @ 0.00031517 = 16.9404 BTC [-] {4}

11:59:27 mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://sidewalkcircus.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/baskethead.jpg

12:00:27 mircea_popescu: punkman the correct way to do this would be with heat exchangers of course.

12:00:27 mircea_popescu: but the arrangement prolly more expensive than the dc

12:06:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20300 @ 0.00032721 = 6.6424 BTC [+] {2}

12:23:50 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 83 @ 0.0151 = 1.2533 BTC [+]

12:25:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50469 @ 0.00033203 = 16.7572 BTC [+] {2}

12:29:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13550 @ 0.00033269 = 4.5079 BTC [+] {2}

12:34:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52500 @ 0.0003331 = 17.4878 BTC [+]

12:48:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66200 @ 0.00033042 = 21.8738 BTC [-] {2}

12:49:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52100 @ 0.00033344 = 17.3722 BTC [+] {2}

13:02:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48500 @ 0.00031737 = 15.3924 BTC [-] {2}

13:20:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32800 @ 0.00031571 = 10.3553 BTC [-] {2}

13:29:54 asciilifeform: ;;later tell Vexual maxpeers 1 addpeer local doesn't test behaviour against torrential 'orphan' crapolade, and other wild things

13:29:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 103700 @ 0.0003328 = 34.5114 BTC [+] {2}

13:29:55 gribble: The operation succeeded.

13:31:27 asciilifeform: in other news,

13:31:38 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/heap_195115_MEM_LIVE.txt and http://www.loper-os.org/pub/heap_195115_MEM_MAX.txt

13:34:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30256 @ 0.00033413 = 10.1094 BTC [+] {3}

13:35:27 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147610 << notice that it wants to vent to the street if you don't want the heat. let me guess, air intake is -not- selectable. this means that it would eat your air-conditioned air in the summer, heat it, and blow to the street. scam.

13:35:27 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 07:42:01; punkman: http://arstechnica.co.uk/business/2015/05/data-furnaces-arrive-in-europe-free-heating-if-you-have-fibre-internet/

13:35:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23694 @ 0.00033482 = 7.9332 BTC [+]

13:39:18 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147596 << laugh, but it isn't so hard if you are emulating ordinary sdram. if one side issues a write cycle, the other gets a wait-state signal (gets to think that the dram is in refresh state)

13:39:18 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 05:34:06; mircea_popescu: "and managing locking somehow" win of the day award lol

13:42:39 asciilifeform: ;;later tell jurov 'Source Code Browser' link on http://thebitcoin.foundation/index.html appears to point to unpatched generic 0.5.3 ?

13:43:39 gribble: The operation succeeded.

13:49:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18800 @ 0.00031508 = 5.9235 BTC [-]

13:53:49 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/heap_195921_end_total.txt << totals after we sigterm bitcoind

13:54:49 asciilifeform: ^ not especially useful, afaik

13:54:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50300 @ 0.000321 = 16.1463 BTC [+] {2}

13:55:34 *: mod6 looks

13:55:56 mod6: btw my test with both of your patches {thermonuke} + {tx amputation} is at 193988

13:57:00 asciilifeform: mod6: post pmap -x -p [yourprocessid] plz

13:59:55 mod6: ok. -p doens't seem to be a thing...

13:59:59 mod6: one sec

14:02:10 mod6: http://dpaste.com/12NDD1X.txt

14:03:10 asciilifeform: ty mod6

14:03:10 mod6: np

14:03:10 asciilifeform: the interesting number, btw, is 269868

14:03:51 asciilifeform: (current total of 'dirty pages')

14:03:58 asciilifeform: in kB

14:38:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72450 @ 0.00033494 = 24.2664 BTC [+] {2}

14:42:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14247 @ 0.00033507 = 4.7737 BTC [+]

14:46:53 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29150 @ 0.00033507 = 9.7673 BTC [+]

14:52:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 216242 @ 0.00032483 = 70.2419 BTC [-] {2}

15:22:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6144 @ 0.00033507 = 2.0587 BTC [+]

15:23:04 BingoBoingo: Oh lol, Gavin might run of to HearnCoin http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34155307/

15:27:23 BingoBoingo: Obligatory Derpatary wit much Hernia https://archive.is/SNAlx

15:33:29 BingoBoingo: !up phf

15:34:06 phf: thanks

16:00:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9600 @ 0.00032923 = 3.1606 BTC [-]

16:03:55 BingoBoingo: !up thestringpuller

16:04:08 BingoBoingo: !up phf

16:04:38 danielpbarron: !up rwg

16:04:45 rwg: hello

16:04:50 rwg: about to head out.

16:04:55 rwg: packing the car lol

16:05:16 danielpbarron: no problem; i'll keep upping you till you get a gpg key registered

16:05:36 rwg: lol

16:05:58 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu asciilifeform : http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34155307/ << this nigga has declared war on the anti-forkers... seems like spinning wheels but knowing hearn, we'll likely see an XT release with the 20MB removed.

16:06:42 thestringpuller: now that axe-time is essentially at doorstep...

16:17:27 punkman: heh http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/CANEZrP15X2JbMazMN7Rw2oxums6X-D3m5zBP02YoqTa6UTzfHQ%40mail.gmail.com/

16:18:27 punkman: "There's a feeling on this list that there's no consensus, or that Gavin and myself are on the wrong side of it. I'd put it differently - there's very strong consensus out in the wider community and this list is something of an aberration."

16:19:37 danielpbarron: EPiSKiNG-, this letter http://qntra.net/2015/05/ulbricht-to-be-sentenced-friday/

16:20:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18468 @ 0.00033147 = 6.1216 BTC [+]

16:27:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6750 @ 0.00033147 = 2.2374 BTC [+]

16:29:47 danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.Cusipzzz.-1:aa2a317c92fbd75f2a22c41ad0c1e50143a0b05f2b9b8e6adcb1995a92ca2b32

16:29:47 assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for Cusipzzz with note: banned me from -otc for speaking out against the fork

16:29:48 scoopbot_revived: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork http://qntra.net/2015/05/gavin-threatens-to-quit-bitcoin-development-and-join-hearns-fork/

16:30:35 danielpbarron: !gettrust assbot Cusipzzz

16:30:36 assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user Cusipzzz: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 2 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=Cusipzzz | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/Cusipzzz/

16:30:38 danielpbarron: :D

16:34:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33500 @ 0.00033147 = 11.1042 BTC [+]

16:40:29 BingoBoingo: !up thestringpuller

16:47:14 BingoBoingo: !up Xuthus

16:54:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36892 @ 0.00032923 = 12.146 BTC [-]

16:55:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47271 @ 0.00033544 = 15.8566 BTC [+] {4}

16:57:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55936 @ 0.0003363 = 18.8113 BTC [+] {2}

17:06:48 BingoBoingo: Phuctor is closing in on half a million moduli

17:36:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17850 @ 0.00033713 = 6.0178 BTC [+]

17:44:35 BingoBoingo: !up ascii_field

17:49:58 danielpbarron: !up sinetek

17:52:07 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66700 @ 0.00033433 = 22.2998 BTC [-]

17:55:10 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3450 @ 0.00033713 = 1.1631 BTC [+]

18:00:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54735 @ 0.00033715 = 18.4539 BTC [+] {2}

18:07:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52100 @ 0.0003376 = 17.589 BTC [+] {2}

18:15:56 BingoBoingo: !up ascii_field

18:46:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130350 @ 0.00033794 = 44.0505 BTC [+] {3}

18:50:13 mod6: !up ascii_field

18:55:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35158 @ 0.0003334 = 11.7217 BTC [-] {2}

18:55:55 ascii_field: l0l re: hearniacoin

19:08:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10107 @ 0.0003289 = 3.3242 BTC [-]

19:23:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55600 @ 0.00032766 = 18.2179 BTC [-]

19:35:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6532 @ 0.00033008 = 2.1561 BTC [+]

19:59:23 jurov: asciilifeform: why do you think? the patches are not there? unless i made a mistake, it is the result of mod6's 0.5.3.1 release build script

20:08:26 jurov: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-March/000069.html guess imma check against this

20:09:51 jurov: mod6 why did you change directory layout in the .tar.gz? i either lose the ability ot compare it to other versions, or lose all files like README, auto.sh that are on the top level

20:10:15 jurov: (the latter happened in this case)

20:13:20 jurov: and looks like nobody ever followed the manual when submitting additional signatures to the turdatron :(

20:13:47 mod6: huh?

20:13:58 *: mod6 looks

20:15:31 jurov: mod6: original releases have src folder one level deep, your has it two

20:16:36 mod6: yeah, this is where these artifacts needed to be.

20:17:21 jurov: and it's ever more important than consistency for comparisons?

20:17:38 mod6: it didn't make sense to me to build boost, openssl and bdb under the "bitcoin" directory.

20:17:58 mod6: I didn't have any clue this would impact anything that you had working.

20:19:23 jurov: now you do. it does break recusrive diff

20:19:24 mod6: where are you having issues with this?

20:20:29 jurov: i will have to flatten the hierarchy before feeding it to lxr browser ( and if you will move files further around, undo that as well)

20:24:29 jurov: if it was convenience for build script, usually build scripts create new directories for their dirty stuff anyway, so i don't see the problem there

20:39:56 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50850 @ 0.00032563 = 16.5583 BTC [-] {2}

20:44:14 felipelalli: hi friends! If I want to sell 1000 BTC in Italy, is that easy to make this off-exchange? Any useful contacts?

20:46:01 jurov: you need them how quickly?

20:46:02 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55896 @ 0.00032434 = 18.1293 BTC [-] {2}

20:51:43 asciilifeform: !up ascii_field

20:51:52 ascii_field: http://reason.com/blog/2015/05/29/ross-ulbricht-gets-life-in-silk-roa

20:55:54 trinque: yep, they're thowing away the key

20:55:58 trinque: *throwing

21:07:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12932 @ 0.00032167 = 4.1598 BTC [-] {2}

21:09:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48278 @ 0.00031725 = 15.3162 BTC [-]

21:11:19 jurov: https://twitter.com/chijs/status/603599293602234368 free led bulbs!!!11 :DDD

21:11:47 jurov: no need to fuss with cable tv boxes, even

21:12:42 ascii_field: 'Bitfury developed a light bulb that automatically mines Bitcoin when you screw it in' << for usg, aha

21:15:23 trinque: has the govt announced an auction for the rest of ulbricht's coin?

21:15:42 ascii_field: trinque: didn't agent force walk with it ?

21:16:33 trinque: not sure how much he made off with

21:17:31 trinque: http://www.forbes.com/sites/katevinton/2015/03/30/two-former-federal-agents-charged-with-stealing-bitcoin-during-silk-road-investigation/ << claims 20k were stolen by the agents

21:19:01 decimation: ascii_field: more interesting is this case: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/05/28/former-house-speaker-dennis-hastert-indicted/

21:20:01 ascii_field: decimation: http://qntra.net/2015/05/former-us-house-speaker-indicted-on-attempting-to-evade-financial-surveillance

21:21:01 decimation: he was indicted by a grand jury for... not telling usg what he was going to do with his cash

21:21:01 trinque: "structuring"

21:21:01 decimation: did you read the indictment?

21:21:01 ascii_field: aha

21:21:01 decimation: it's fucked up. if there's any good call for jury anullment, this is it

21:21:01 trinque: I have not, taking a look

21:21:01 ascii_field: cattle vote precisely as ordered to - whether at election or in jury

21:21:02 decimation: now you know the reality is that the press and the prosecutors are going to talk about how he was dirty bastard or whatever

21:21:14 decimation: but the actual fact is that he didn't submit to the government spies who work in his bank

21:22:13 decimation: !up ascii_field

21:22:42 decimation: another point to note - if the former speaker of the house/k street lobbyist can't access cash in an anonymous way, what chance to regular people have?

21:23:01 trinque: I wonder if it will ever be known how many usg intelligence agents have been planted in various public offices

21:23:07 trinque: judges, so on

21:23:27 decimation: trinque: there's not need. the bank is illegal if it doesn't comply

21:23:46 trinque: perhaps just being a part of the same govt is enough for them to help each other

21:23:57 trinque: does seem though that certain things always find a willing judge

21:24:18 decimation: well, they are elected by the same cattle generally

21:24:26 trinque: I always think of Jessie Ventura's story about being summoned to DC for questioning by the CIA

21:24:42 trinque: topic of "where the fuck did you come from?"

21:25:41 ascii_field: <decimation> another point to note - if the former speaker of the house/k street lobbyist can't access cash in an anonymous way, what chance to regular people have? << if he is on trial, then it follows that he first fell from grace

21:25:44 felipelalli: jurov: I'm not sure yet, it is not for me, but to my father. As soon I have more details, can I contact you in pvt?

21:25:48 ascii_field: otherwise he would be untouchable

21:26:01 decimation: yeah, somebody somewhere pulled the trigger, no doubt

21:26:13 decimation: probably because of political enmity or whatever

21:26:13 jurov: felipelalli: yes you can

21:26:35 felipelalli: jurov: thank you.

21:32:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54000 @ 0.00031714 = 17.1256 BTC [-] {3}

21:33:17 danielpbarron: https://i.imgur.com/OEqzSmC.png >> ...that thumbnail...

21:38:09 jurov: win.

21:40:28 trinque: ahaha

21:40:42 trinque: opening fraudsters in public is always a dice roll

21:41:05 jurov: felipelalli: i recommend explaining to your father asap that it's better not to sell whole package at once

21:42:15 felipelalli: jurov: I said that to him. He said he'll study to keep (or distribute) some part in bitcoin. I already found sellers here in Brazil.

21:43:02 trinque: decimation: in reading the indictment of the former speaker, the terrible consequences of using "intent" as a legal concept are apparent

21:43:40 trinque: allows for a black hole of thoughtcrime charges

21:43:52 williamdunne: felipelalli: You want to sell? I might be able to organize this for you

21:44:35 williamdunne: !gettrust williamdunne felipelalli

21:44:35 assbot: Trust relationship from user williamdunne to user felipelalli: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=williamdunne&to=felipelalli | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/felipelalli/

21:45:33 trinque: it also brings to mind the way these things develop, where first intent may be something which increases or decreases the legal severity of some other crime, but over time becomes a crime all its own

21:46:03 felipelalli: williamdunne: move usd from Brazil to Italy. My father is studying to use bitcoin. A Brazilian exchange is helping me with that but the problem now is find buyers in Italy.

21:46:16 felipelalli: williamdunne: are you Italian?

21:48:05 williamdunne: I am not italian but I have access to euro

21:48:18 williamdunne: You don't need money in Italy, you need money in Europe

21:48:21 williamdunne: All the same money..

21:48:44 williamdunne: But yes, I can't organize 200k in cash but I can probably find a buyer via bank transfer

21:48:53 felipelalli: williamdunne: they can make free transfer between different countries?

21:49:12 williamdunne: Yes, but why would you care about free on a deal that large?

21:49:22 felipelalli: williamdunne: "free" I mean cheap.

21:49:30 williamdunne: Yeah one or two euro

21:49:37 felipelalli: it's free :)

21:50:02 williamdunne: Aha, well yes. But on 1000 bitcoin even a wire transfer at 20 euros isn't really a problem :D

21:50:12 felipelalli: sure!! :)

21:50:14 williamdunne: But yes, do you need this? I will speak to someone

21:50:19 felipelalli: But 1% would be a problem.

21:50:23 williamdunne: Sure

21:50:42 felipelalli: I have to talk with him again. I'm waiting his call.

21:50:50 felipelalli: thank you guys.

21:51:15 williamdunne: Sure thing, I'll PM you if I know someone interested

22:19:44 jurov: wiring 200k euro isn't a problem if you're a company that does it like, every month

22:20:37 williamdunne: Yeah thats fine, I could handle that

22:25:21 scoopbot_revived: Ross Ulbricht Sentenced To Life In Prison http://qntra.net/2015/05/ross-ulbricht-sentenced-to-life-in-prison/

22:30:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31700 @ 0.00032949 = 10.4448 BTC [+]

22:42:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10699 @ 0.00032904 = 3.5204 BTC [-]

22:54:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66800 @ 0.00032974 = 22.0266 BTC [+] {2}

23:12:54 mircea_popescu: hey check it out, nsa-dev goes to join ver-foundation in the pile of relevancy ?

23:12:58 mircea_popescu: this is good for bitcoin.

23:16:03 mircea_popescu: !rated sipa

23:16:03 assbot: You have not rated sipa.

23:16:21 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell sipa if you want to join #b-a and actually work on bitcoin for a change, i'll rate you so you can voice.

23:16:22 gribble: The operation succeeded.

23:16:40 mircea_popescu: !rated BlueMatt

23:16:40 assbot: You rated user BlueMatt on 06-May-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: one of the very few dudes in -dev actually doing something useful..

23:17:03 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell BlueMatt if you want to join #b-a and actually work on bitcoin for a change, you have a rating already, so you can voice.

23:17:04 gribble: The operation succeeded.

23:19:31 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147610 << incidentally, the fact that this has been funded is proof positive that bezzle IT industry broadly agrees with me : moore's law is dead.

23:19:31 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 07:42:01; punkman: http://arstechnica.co.uk/business/2015/05/data-furnaces-arrive-in-europe-free-heating-if-you-have-fibre-internet/

23:19:46 mircea_popescu: there's no expectation the contents of the boxes be obsolete any time before it amortises.

23:21:08 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147632 << i do, whenever i write by hand. the women and nurses can usually read it, but not really anyone else.

23:21:08 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 10:00:11; jurov: <ben_vulpes> quick poll: who writes in cursive? << i do, but for internal use only. block letters otherwise

23:23:02 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147659 << obviously eats your air. engineering assumption being "where could we get a fixed 20 degrees source ?", otherwise who'd bother with the meatsacks.

23:23:02 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 13:35:27; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147610 << notice that it wants to vent to the street if you don't want the heat. let me guess, air intake is -not- selectable. this means that it would eat your air-conditioned air in the summer, heat it, and blow to the street. scam.

23:24:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36255 @ 0.00033716 = 12.2237 BTC [+] {2}

23:24:13 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147662 << in principle, but this is eminently one of those cases where the difference between theory and practice is that in practice theory does not exist.

23:24:13 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 13:39:18; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147596 << laugh, but it isn't so hard if you are emulating ordinary sdram. if one side issues a write cycle, the other gets a wait-state signal (gets to think that the dram is in refresh state)

23:24:59 mircea_popescu: "in theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, while in practice theory does not exist." fify!

23:26:22 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147678 << does your 32 mb inner core feel encouraged by this ? :D

23:26:22 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 14:03:10; asciilifeform: the interesting number, btw, is 269868

23:38:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45050 @ 0.00033891 = 15.2679 BTC [+] {2}

23:41:00 mircea_popescu: as BingoBoingo points out, this has been a very high lulz week.

23:41:04 mircea_popescu: price increase incoming ?

23:41:37 BingoBoingo: MPOE price is moving up

23:42:19 mircea_popescu: oh that it is huh.

23:43:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, the one interesting tidbit in all this : one difference between current bitcoin and hearn-bitcoin is that the latter replaces Jeff Garzik's DNS seed with the seed run by one Addy Yeow.

23:43:01 BingoBoingo: Also this is only high lolz compared to recent weeks. We're probably still below December's lolz levels still.

23:43:15 mircea_popescu: rather than simply getting rid of it.

23:43:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8917 @ 0.00033066 = 2.9485 BTC [-] {2}

23:43:29 mircea_popescu: this should be enough indication of the importance of dns-in-bitcoin for the shitgnome.

23:44:03 mircea_popescu: not just from a "must be in there for we need all the dns-carried pores imported via glibc etc", but also in the much lower level "who's in charge of the it!!1" thing

23:44:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32533 @ 0.00032246 = 10.4906 BTC [-] {2}

23:45:42 mircea_popescu: (addy yeow aka ayeowch, "bitnodes" bs)

23:47:01 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-05-2015#1147702 << "the troops are just right over the horizon" and "real america supports me, for i am not a crook".

23:47:01 assbot: Logged on 29-05-2015 16:18:27; punkman: "There's a feeling on this list that there's no consensus, or that Gavin and myself are on the wrong side of it. I'd put it differently - there's very strong consensus out in the wider community and this list is something of an aberration."

23:47:05 BingoBoingo: Ah, the nodecounter that only counts post Hearnfork1 nodes

23:47:08 mircea_popescu: is socialism ever getting a new playbook ?

23:47:55 BingoBoingo: Of course software developers get no say. The say goes to the content farms in the Phillipines.

23:48:07 mircea_popescu: "i paid someone to make five hundred thousand fake facebook pages that like me, SO THERE1!1"

23:48:40 mircea_popescu: anyway, gavin best lolcow of 2015.

23:49:13 mircea_popescu: i remember the sad days when all we had was kludge the banker and ponzi the smooth operator.

23:50:18 mircea_popescu: got slightly better once mtgox got finished, but not by much. that year's lolcow promotion was delulded fatso, the pageantry genius with her "chamber of commerce", that schmuck in ny that meanwhile got sent to "privately practice" with his privates...

23:50:29 mircea_popescu: 2014 wasn't altogether bad, but it doesn't hold a candle to 2015 so far.

23:52:50 mircea_popescu: drastically humiliated cantor fitzgerald vp, drastically humiliated nsa assets, i can't wait for autumn.

23:53:25 mircea_popescu: oh, and lets not forget http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-05-2015#1147141

23:53:25 assbot: Logged on 28-05-2015 22:27:06; cazalla: i'm sure there is a better way to do it but relying on archive.today probably isn't that great an idea but not sure what else to do (for example, all the bitcoin auction stuff has been completely removed from the US Marshall's website)

23:53:36 BingoBoingo: "muricademia also getting pretty lulzy this year http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/29/laura_kipnis_title_ix_investigation_feminism_political_correctness_controversy.html

23:54:36 mircea_popescu: mildly humiliated us marshalls service and slightly more humiliated federal prosecutors. tho both of these being public servants, they can do a lot better than this.

23:54:36 mircea_popescu: slate still exists huh

23:54:36 BingoBoingo: Yeah, hard for them not too.

23:55:05 BingoBoingo: They still have enough name of their own that they can cut their expenses gawker style without collecting as much gawker stench

23:55:37 mircea_popescu: now this is a point

23:56:01 mircea_popescu: gawker was somehow the loss leader in that, but otherwise "industry"-wide it's been a serious case of "work for free or don't work at all, for money there isn't".

23:56:15 cazalla: i overstated that tbh.. most of it has been removed, there are a few remnants but the majority is gone

23:56:19 mircea_popescu: which, inasmuch as it's factually correct, is what it is.

23:56:33 mircea_popescu: cazalla screenshotted teh remnants ?

23:57:08 mircea_popescu: "On Friday, Kipnis published another piece in the Chronicle, revealing that, in a twist that's ironic on more than one level, she is now the subject of an investigation into graduate student complaints that her earlier column and a subsequent tweet violated Title IX, the law that prohibits sex descrimination in education."

23:57:13 mircea_popescu: i do not get how this is "ironic"

23:57:16 cazalla: most of it is pdf and xls files such as www.usmarshals.gov/readingroom/foia_logs/2014_foia_log.xlsx

23:57:39 mircea_popescu: inasmuch as the woman's public communication is being indicted for failing to kow-tow to idiocy, it'd seem this is just cultural-revolution style maoism.

23:57:53 cazalla: still shows foia requests unresolved

23:58:05 mircea_popescu: cazalla ahahaha idiots. same derps did this purge job that did thew original reddit "bitcoin blocks consensus" purge job ?

23:58:29 BingoBoingo: Ironically the definition of irony used on the ESL interwebz has expanded so much it has no meaning. It nao has as much meaning as "a" or "the"