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Transcript for 29-08-2013, 1888 lines:

00:59:26 jborkl: mircea_popescu ping

04:18:29 mircea_popescu: http://bitbet.us/bet/521/labcoins-own-130nm-design-sample-chips-will-be/

04:18:34 ozbot: BitBet - Labcoins own 130nm design sample chips will be received by testers by 12TH SEPT 2013

04:18:50 mircea_popescu: scamlab about 16:1 against atm, so if any of those fake trades want to take part in some real action...

04:19:00 mircea_popescu: one btc could yield 500% once they deliver.

04:19:15 Diablo-D3: you mean 1 btc could yield 5

04:19:27 Duffer1: that is 500% :P

04:19:40 Diablo-D3: 500% is a common way of writing scams

04:19:46 Diablo-D3: it makes people think its a big number

04:19:49 mircea_popescu: hm?

04:19:59 Diablo-D3: oh, the fag still has me on ignore

04:19:59 Diablo-D3: nm

04:20:01 Diablo-D3: what a scammer

04:20:56 mircea_popescu: !ticker btctc labcoin

04:21:05 mircea_popescu: preeety lulzy.

04:21:17 Duffer1: oh mircea_popescu you have Diablo-D3 on ignore :P

04:21:40 mircea_popescu: well... it's a privilege not a right >D

04:23:11 Duffer1: i think labcoin will have their chips by the stated date, but the bitbet resolve would be hard "at least 5 actual credible forum members (PR outlets and known shills specifically excluded) that credibly show their sample ASIC chip working to specification."

04:23:31 mircea_popescu: why's that hard ?

04:23:45 zoinky: do you know if they are gonna join a pool to mine or attempt solo?

04:24:40 Duffer1: samples would have to be sent to credible forum persons within 14 days, i haven't read anything saying they plan to do that

04:25:48 mircea_popescu: right.

04:26:41 mircea_popescu: it is indeed very hard to send imaginary miners to actual people.

04:26:52 mircea_popescu: butr anyway, i'm off. take care all.

04:26:57 Duffer1: hehe

04:52:55 VanCleef: wonder if he gives a fuck about looking after other peoples money

06:06:37 VanCleef: i dont think coinflow is updating in real time atm

06:06:44 VanCleef: re live trades

06:30:18 jorash: Hi, I am selling shares in a company ( http://noospheer.org ) developing efficient quantum emulation software that will theoretically outperform traditional mining software. 1BTC purchases 0.01% class A shares, selling up to 20% of total equity. Projected ROI ~20x to ~500x depending on quantum search algorithm implemented (Grover's in the former case , Gross-Pitaevskii [ http://arxiv.

06:30:18 jorash: org/abs/1303.0371 ] in the latter). ;)

06:31:50 jorash: Op to go down Q1 2014. Software to be released freeBSD open source subsequently

06:33:39 jorash: if interested, pm me please as I may be afk for your response

06:35:00 Duffer1: lol fuck off

06:35:08 dub: dammit

06:35:17 dub: I wanted to be the first to tell him to fuck off

06:35:33 jorash: Duffer1, dub: what... it's 'impossible'?

06:35:46 dub: you cut my lunch by a few seconds

06:36:05 jorash: P vs BQP is an entirely open question -- whether Turing machines can efficiently simulate universal quantum systems

06:36:21 dub: why do you need money up front?

06:37:11 jorash: well certainly not after...

06:37:11 jorash: commit theory to code, catalyze development, have a carrot for the team other than just pot of gold at the end of rainbow

06:37:48 Duffer1: fucking with other peoples money is bad business, someday you're gonna burn the wrong person and they'll be in the right situation to do something about it, just it's not even worth it man

06:37:51 Duffer1: so fuck off

06:38:07 jorash: it's called venture capital

06:39:05 jorash: you do your due diligence, and commit money know the risks, it's been done for centuries

06:39:42 Duffer1: scamming does not = venture capitalism

06:40:15 jorash: and you have assessed this as a scam without asking more than one question, how

06:41:12 Duffer1: I'm not going to give you pointers on how to scam people better.

06:42:12 jorash: You understand the basis of your evaluation of this project as a scam is probably based solely on the fact that this conversation is happening over irc?

06:42:29 jorash: quick to judge

06:42:50 Duffer1: quick to judge? lol your post set off every bullshit detector in a five mile radius

06:42:51 Namworld: Everything in BTC is a scam until proven otherwise and even then it can turn into a scam at any moment, pretty much

06:43:20 jorash: That's fine but recognize a tree for the forest

06:43:35 Duffer1: "quantum emulator", "class A shares", "20-500x" return

06:44:32 Duffer1: i get chinese spam that reads exactly like your post

06:45:22 Duffer1: or malaysia maybe?

06:45:36 jorash: Quantum emulation is required to run quantum search algorithms such as Grover's (square root speedup) and GP (constant time).. versus classical linear time as SHA-2 is currently cracked. Class A shares indicate same rights as directors in the corp (including dividend from all revenue streams, not just miner which is a sideproject). 20-500x is the return based on the efficiency of the

06:45:36 jorash: miner.

06:47:19 Duffer1: ya i'll pass

06:47:31 jorash: kewl

07:06:06 dub: inb4 jorash is reptilia

07:22:54 Duffer1: whoa peta-mine got ok'd

08:26:49 jurov: http://www.noospheer.org/manifesto/ at a loss of words

08:27:09 jurov: "delusional" doesn't quite cut it

10:47:58 jurov: ;;later tell mircea_popescu idea for next year conference :D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_d%C3%A9jeuner_sur_l%27herbe

11:53:23 kleeck: LOL @ Yifu's chi being damaged by his lack of product delivery. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269950.msg3030901#msg3030901

11:56:28 kakobrekla: nah

11:56:40 kakobrekla: ngzang is the most ethical asic dealer dontyaknow

11:57:13 kleeck: DONT DAMAGE MY CHI, BRO!

12:20:58 Ogedei: http://www.labcoin.com/images/QFP44PIN.JPG

12:37:10 Rulother: There's one phrase that drives me nuts more than any other phrases that's being said on the forums

12:37:14 Rulother: "Amazing company"

12:37:17 Rulother: stfu already

12:38:21 kleeck: "Best company NA!"

12:39:21 kleeck: We should start a mining company tournament bracket.

12:39:51 kleeck: Maybe a leader board would be more suited.

12:41:47 Ogedei: yea the threads are terrible

12:41:59 kleeck: Yifu: http://imgur.com/Tr8HVI6

12:48:58 Rulother: lol

12:49:09 Rulother: a company bracket eh?

12:49:30 Rulother: Soon we'll have a draft

12:49:39 Rulother: who gets ken, swede and friedcat

12:50:23 kleeck: I don't know, getting knocked out doesn't really work, it would have to be power rankings or something.

12:52:52 Rulother: Total hashing power

12:53:10 Rulother: Burnside will be the overlord

12:54:05 gecko_x2: the CEO of Council of Forum Relations

12:55:34 Rulother: of bitcoin

13:35:59 mircea_popescu: motherfucker.

13:36:24 mircea_popescu: so overnight the hdd of my server holding my blog has died.

13:36:56 mircea_popescu: fsck is done, new os installed, restoring from backups atm. fraudsters should be back online within a few hours.

13:37:14 KRS-1: a wise man is one with backups

13:37:29 Rulother: how many visitors do you usually get a day?

13:37:29 KRS-1: feed me fraudsters...MOAR

13:37:52 mircea_popescu: KRS-1 for some reason it has failed in such a manner you can't just dump a hdd in the raid hotswap and repropagate

13:37:55 mircea_popescu: which meh

13:38:11 mircea_popescu: Rulother it varies considerably, a few thousand at the low end

13:38:49 Rulother: Nice

13:43:02 mircea_popescu: anyway, jurov : http://fraudsters.com/2013/art-over-time-a-graph-of-progress/ for when it's back.

14:12:09 matuszed: Vrooom

14:12:24 kleeck: Well. I might just get to buy at a discount ON btct.

14:12:28 kleeck: Deal.

14:51:13 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu hey this is unprecedented

14:51:15 thestringpuller: fraudsters is down

14:51:23 thestringpuller: but I guess you already know that

14:53:28 ThickAsThieves: say it aint so

14:54:53 thestringpuller: give it a try ThickAsThieves may just be from my location

14:55:23 deadweasel: is down

14:55:27 mod6: scroll up

14:56:03 thestringpuller: i see mod6

14:56:06 thestringpuller: thanks for that

14:56:08 thestringpuller: mr. lurker

14:58:28 kleeck: Reposting - Yifu:http://imgur.com/Tr8HVI6

14:58:52 kakobrekla: lmao

14:59:29 kleeck: I'd like to thank ArcticWolf for the .gif idea. Also Yifu, for the fuckin' best quote I've read in a long time.

15:00:53 mod6: thestringpuller: :D

15:01:21 mod6: ive been in perl mod hell all night.

15:02:22 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller lol it's in the log

15:02:46 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/#269652

15:02:54 ozbot: #bitcoin-assets log

15:03:24 mircea_popescu: lol @gif

15:03:25 mod6: i added this part to the bot that /should/ tweet the MPEx part of assbots stream. But i keep hitting these snags with not found modules. mainly because the host it runs on doesn't allow me to run CPAN. So I have to drop everything in by hand lol.

15:04:01 thestringpuller: i have a question

15:04:09 thestringpuller: why are you writing anything in perl?

15:04:11 mircea_popescu: mod6 hopefully twitter doesn't go all bonkers again.

15:04:43 mod6: well, i registered this app in their OAuth thing and have keys and everything. should be ok.

15:04:45 thestringpuller: you can only tween 400 things from client within an hour

15:04:48 thestringpuller: or it might be 200

15:04:56 thestringpuller: tweet*

15:04:59 mircea_popescu: or it might be "less than 200 but we won't twell you how many"

15:05:06 mod6: ahh

15:05:07 mircea_popescu: "and yes we advertise ourselves as this exact service"

15:05:12 pankkake: also can't tweet the same thing twice in a row

15:05:26 thestringpuller: they have API restrictions that refresh every hour

15:05:30 thestringpuller: to prevent le spammors

15:05:30 mircea_popescu: pankkake i had added a random number at end for the case where people do one of thiose

15:05:35 pankkake: haha

15:05:45 mod6: well, i miss the @MPEx1 feed, so i figure i'd play with my own. if i break the thing, whatever.

15:05:51 mircea_popescu: well the alternative is missing trades. wtf am i to do.

15:06:06 mod6: that was a pretty good idea. thought about re-adding it

15:06:25 mod6: to the end of the tweets. we'll see how it goes. first i gotta get the damn PM problem wrapped.

15:06:38 mod6: and thestringpuller: because its what i know. and i kinda hate python

15:07:06 mircea_popescu: just as long as its not rubyjava

15:08:09 mod6: eek yah.

15:08:26 mircea_popescu: in other news : someone spent 1.3billion isk to buy 2 shares of 1Bitcoin, the eve corp

15:08:50 mircea_popescu: they are backed by 100 s.mpoe shares each, and so do we have the first isk -> btc asset trade ?

15:08:51 ThickAsThieves: are you gonna give up bitcoin for Eve?

15:09:03 mircea_popescu: i think they're just trying to protect from iskflation.

15:09:28 ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash

15:09:34 ThickAsThieves: ;;bcstats

15:09:41 ThickAsThieves: ;;estimate

15:09:52 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves and no im not gonna give up bitcoin wtf nonsense is that.

15:10:00 ThickAsThieves: phew

15:10:18 ThickAsThieves: :)

15:10:21 mod6: heheh

15:10:38 thestringpuller: .d

15:10:38 ozbot: 65750060.14908 | Next Diff in 1161 blocks | Estimated Change: 17.4921% in 6d 15h 37m 13s

15:10:40 mircea_popescu: lol

15:10:55 thestringpuller: LOL it jumped 5% overnight?

15:11:13 daybyter: mircea_popescu: java rules...

15:11:51 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller bitfury deliveries!~

15:11:59 mircea_popescu: daybyter ya it rules a dedicated circle in hell.

15:12:29 thestringpuller: I wanna read your asicminer article

15:12:45 mircea_popescu: see ? you didn;'t read it five times each day, now SUFFAR!

15:13:04 thestringpuller: that's something the girl would say

15:13:06 thestringpuller: Hello girl

15:13:08 thestringpuller: lol

15:13:27 mircea_popescu: you could have handwritten it on waistbands and daisy petals

15:13:35 mircea_popescu: to have in a dark time such as this

15:14:30 thestringpuller: doesn't that violate the paywall?

15:14:35 thestringpuller: printing out fraudsters articles?

15:15:05 thestringpuller: I might as well print out best of fraudsters, and sell it at the n00b conventions :P

15:15:20 gecko_x2: what is the difference between a fraudsters and a dilema?

15:15:21 mircea_popescu: lol

15:15:32 mircea_popescu: gecko_x2 fraudsters has 50% moar.

15:15:53 thestringpuller: a dilema is a normal gun duel

15:15:56 gecko_x2: don't you mean 33.33%?

15:15:57 thestringpuller: a fraudsters is a mexican stand off

15:16:01 mircea_popescu: i don't, no.

15:16:05 gecko_x2: ok

15:16:07 thestringpuller: ;;google mexican standoff

15:16:08 gecko_x2: copy that.

15:16:44 VanCleef: so uh, is the girl real?

15:16:55 mod6: this is like a meme now

15:16:58 mircea_popescu: i will be getting this in like 2018 too won't i

15:17:15 mircea_popescu: she'll be all old and shrively by then and live entirely off the fame

15:17:22 thestringpuller: in 2018?

15:17:25 thestringpuller: is like 50 now?

15:17:54 VanCleef: you can tell me

15:18:16 VanCleef: i'm good either way, not judging

15:18:49 mircea_popescu: well these days girls age fast.

15:18:55 mircea_popescu: 30+ one's like a ruin.

15:19:40 VanCleef: you're not like having a chelsea manning moment or something are you?

15:20:23 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: are you kidding? I would tap a 35 year old over a 20 year old any day of the week.

15:20:29 mircea_popescu: dude, it's a sad statement on the castration level in the west that people think someone's going transsexual is about as likely as a female existing.

15:20:41 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller yeah i'm kidding

15:20:47 VanCleef: just asking

15:21:04 mircea_popescu: VanCleef yes, yes, the girl is real.

15:21:36 mircea_popescu: Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning, December 17, 1987) dude... lmao.

15:22:34 VanCleef: i thought maybe it was like an inside joke like amethyst

15:22:53 mircea_popescu: it is an inside joke like amethyst, but the other way around

15:23:01 mircea_popescu: (ie, forum ppls keep assuming she's me)

15:23:20 mircea_popescu: they keep asuming scams are real and reality fake. it's a disease.

15:23:23 thestringpuller: the funny thing mircea_popescu is people believe you exists on the forums, even though you never post there

15:23:39 thestringpuller: but because the girl doesn't get on IRC and only exists on the forums she's "not real"

15:23:45 thestringpuller: oh and that she's a girl

15:24:11 mircea_popescu: actually i saw some theorizing that it's really a girl all along, and i'm just the fake irc personality thereof.

15:24:25 VanCleef: i'm thinking about doing a ipo to raise funds to install female toilets at bitcoin conventions, really good investment

15:24:44 mircea_popescu: cause you could return them untouched after the convention for 100% money back ?

15:24:53 Graet: pay per view VanCleef ?

15:24:57 mircea_popescu: lol

15:25:06 VanCleef: what a waste heh

15:25:13 mircea_popescu: it should be pay per gram.

15:25:32 mircea_popescu: im not paying to watch 200lbs violently & odorously expell a small child in a brown color scheme

15:25:39 VanCleef: lol

15:25:50 thestringpuller: now I can't finish my breakfast

15:25:54 mircea_popescu: yw.

15:26:07 VanCleef: oh jesus

15:26:19 VanCleef: i'm still laughing

15:26:27 VanCleef: classic line

15:27:36 kakobrekla: are you implying you would take it if it was free

15:27:50 mircea_popescu: unintentionally.

15:29:36 mircea_popescu: http://girls.twistys.com/preview/totm/09-2013/p01/image/12.jpg there. fake tits and dry lips to forget all about it.

15:30:05 VanCleef: heh looks a lil like denise richards

15:30:31 mircea_popescu: actually it's nicole aniston.

15:30:53 mircea_popescu: she's like 25, looks 40

15:35:58 ThickAsThieves: "Do you seriously think this company is correctly valued at twice labcoin's value? All this guy is doing is buying 3rd party mining hardware while companies are out there developing their own ASICs"

15:36:25 matuszed: Which company is in reference

15:36:36 ThickAsThieves: peta-mine or whatevs

15:36:39 matuszed: ooo yea

15:36:44 matuszed: that things a fucking joke

15:37:11 ThickAsThieves: i like how they are measuring jokes in increments of jokes

15:37:17 matuszed: haha

15:37:20 matuszed: thats like a 4joke

15:37:58 ThickAsThieves: this scam is so much less believable than that scam, therefore valuation must be lower

15:38:24 mircea_popescu: lol

15:38:49 mircea_popescu: as amusing as it may sound, it's exactly how the dysfunctional mind works.

15:39:19 ThickAsThieves: another intersting thingy,

15:39:27 mircea_popescu: i guess someone should start an ipo selling indulgences to get in Bitcoin heaven

15:39:32 mircea_popescu: it's what all this shit is anyway.

15:39:34 ThickAsThieves: Ukyo randomly pays extra on his bond/loan

15:39:45 ThickAsThieves: so price goes up for a day

15:39:48 ThickAsThieves: people buy

15:39:52 ThickAsThieves: then get sad

15:39:58 ThickAsThieves: when he pays normal again

15:40:16 ThickAsThieves: "What! it means I bought overprice shares yesterday Sad"

15:41:34 ThickAsThieves: !last havelock dealco

15:43:19 topace: !ticker h dealco

15:43:24 topace: :p

15:43:28 ThickAsThieves: :)

15:43:33 topace: !ticker h cfig

15:43:50 ThickAsThieves: another performance in irony for you: "You're wasting time trying to explain anything to the average 'investor' here. They simply aren't smart enough to get it, though they imagine themselves to be towering geniuses. It's better if they don't get it, anyway. Cheaper shares for those of us who do." (labcoin)

15:44:26 kleeck: Poetry.

15:44:40 mircea_popescu: lolk

15:45:00 mircea_popescu: i guess time to stir the pot a little.

15:45:45 gecko_x2: i'm a towering genius

15:45:53 ThickAsThieves: we all are

15:45:54 gecko_x2: that's fo sure

15:45:59 ThickAsThieves: just a matter of the view

15:46:11 gecko_x2: silent you little ant

15:46:16 gecko_x2: :D

15:46:27 ThickAsThieves: it's a mc escher reality

15:46:36 ThickAsThieves: where you get to look down on me looking down at you

15:46:57 gecko_x2: that's called socialism

15:47:43 gecko_x2: one of the most dangerous plagues mankind has ever faced

15:48:07 gecko_x2: the other is called inflation

15:48:38 ThickAsThieves: http://thefalloutgirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/escher-big.jpg

15:49:05 ThickAsThieves: that's me with the loot in the middle

15:49:50 Rawted: that's not loot, thats a trash bag

15:50:14 ThickAsThieves: it's cheap shares! shh

15:50:41 Rawted: lol

15:50:47 zoinky: tick tick tick

15:53:06 gecko_x2: wow lol

15:53:08 matuszed: Thats a big orde

15:53:10 matuszed: rhaha

15:53:15 gecko_x2: good luck with that

15:54:13 gecko_x2: they only need 32000 btc more

15:54:18 Rawted: ;;tslb

15:54:22 Rawted: oops

15:54:29 gecko_x2: but who they gonna buy from?

15:54:37 matuszed: Such a 4joke

15:56:11 gecko_x2: "PETA-MINE deployment is scheduled for mid December, 2013"

15:56:34 matuszed: Might as well be 2020

15:56:50 ThickAsThieves: maybe it's a typo

15:57:18 gecko_x2: "The core hardware for the mine will be a 28nm chip from Cointerra. These chips have outstanding specifications when it comes to power consumption and hashing power, which, in turn, means CryptX will be able to keep power and hosting costs at a minimum. What’s more, the hashing power of the Cointerra 28nm chip is +500 GH/s, which means CryptX will be able to deploy the PETA-MINE

15:57:19 gecko_x2: quickly and efficiently. This strategic partnership with Cointerra means CryptX will have access to future chip developments at the most competitive rates on the market."

15:57:36 mircea_popescu: mine-a-pet

15:58:10 mircea_popescu: strategic partnership with a napkin calculation.

15:58:16 mircea_popescu: verily strategic.

15:58:45 ThickAsThieves: translation: we want to short mining by reselling shorting mining

15:58:53 jborkl: why did they call it Pedo-mine anyway

15:58:55 gecko_x2: "The IPO will prove successful with the sale of at least 30,000 shares. If fewer than 30,000 shares sell within 30 days, CryptX will refund the entire IPO to shareholders. What’s more, the fact that no shares beyond those offered at IPO will ever be issued means shareholders need not fear dilution of the value of their shares."

15:59:05 gecko_x2: ;;calc 30000 * 0.65

15:59:32 gecko_x2: ;;calc 19500 * 130

15:59:39 ThickAsThieves: no bother calc'ing, some private investor will surely gobble any leftovers

16:00:03 gecko_x2: hmm

16:03:05 ThickAsThieves: I should start TAT.HAMBURGERS as performance art

16:03:22 ThickAsThieves: Hallelujah, cheap hamburgers!

16:03:26 mircea_popescu: heh

16:04:16 ThickAsThieves: maybe i'm onto something

16:05:07 ThickAsThieves: Trendon Shavers Acquited on First Amendment, Claims Performance Art

16:05:12 gecko_x2: "Yes, this mine will be using Cointerra chips that will release in mid December."

16:05:14 kleeck: The $/Bite is SO much better with TAT's 76,200,,000nm burgers.

16:05:24 gecko_x2: oh so they will then begin to deploy hehe

16:05:24 mod6: damnit

16:05:25 thestringpuller: ThickAsThieves: is that real?

16:05:29 gecko_x2: hashing maybe 2-3 months later

16:07:29 mircea_popescu: i think bitcoins should come with a copy of Benjamin Graham's books.

16:08:59 ThickAsThieves: but it already comes with a Mircea Popescu

16:09:33 mircea_popescu: well ya but graham's better.

16:09:48 mircea_popescu: So Lennay Kekua, T-Bone, and Amina Abdallah Arraf al Omari walk into a bar and the bartender says, ?Nobody is going to get this joke.?

16:10:00 ThickAsThieves: !ticker h labco

16:13:04 ThickAsThieves: http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/29/4671692/blackberry-q10-sales-just-up-and-died-report

16:13:08 ozbot: BlackBerry Q10 sales have 'hit the ground and died' according to WSJ report | The Verge

16:13:27 ThickAsThieves: cheap shares?

16:13:41 mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3036308#msg3036308

16:13:42 ThickAsThieves: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23886031#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

16:13:47 ozbot: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining)

16:13:49 KRS-1: Blackberry with Kodak pride, falls to the wayside.

16:13:49 mircea_popescu: curious how long they take to cover that

16:13:49 ozbot: BBC News - US fast-food workers on strike over pay

16:14:15 deadweasel: in other news, fat people hungry.

16:14:18 jborkl: They still make Blackberry?

16:14:25 KRS-1: just released a new one

16:14:29 jborkl: I have not seen one in years now

16:15:13 mircea_popescu: jborkl probably they buy it in africa.

16:15:30 ThickAsThieves: there was a huge blackberry video ad in times square when i was there

16:15:33 jborkl: ah, yeah I bet your are right

16:15:47 jborkl: you are

16:15:49 ThickAsThieves: i was amazed they still had the bidget

16:15:54 ThickAsThieves: budget*

16:15:55 mircea_popescu: bridget ? :D

16:16:13 jborkl: lol, we all fail at spelling

16:16:27 ThickAsThieves: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23869462

16:16:29 ozbot: BBC News - How one man turns annoying cold calls into cash

16:16:38 ThickAsThieves: "In November 2011 Lee Beaumont paid £10 plus VAT to set up his personal 0871 line - so to call him now costs 10p, from which he receives 7p."

16:16:50 ThickAsThieves: "The Leeds businessman told BBC Radio 4's You and Yours programme that the line had so far made £300."

16:16:54 mircea_popescu: ahaha scammer's response to the bitbet thing ? he doesn't bet on his own scam because "it would be dishonest"

16:17:09 ThickAsThieves: awesome

16:17:14 ThickAsThieves: feels so good it hurts

16:17:25 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: is that in your link?

16:17:47 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller "that" ?

16:18:00 thestringpuller: nvm I see it

16:19:15 pankkake: we need a bet for active mining too

16:19:36 mircea_popescu: pankkake just as soon as they get a few BTC together to make one./

16:19:49 mircea_popescu: you know, out of the 3498756 billion bitcoins that were traded this month.

16:20:03 jborkl: So, what is the new deal with Avalon? They are refunding chip orders?

16:20:20 pankkake: they have the stupidest shareholders, when I go to their threads, half of them are already ignored :p

16:20:40 ThickAsThieves: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23881928

16:20:41 mircea_popescu: will be funnay

16:20:46 ozbot: BBC News - US economic growth revised upwards to 2.5%

16:20:58 mod6: *sigh*

16:21:36 ThickAsThieves: photo in article is man holding the Sorry game

16:21:40 ThickAsThieves: intentional?

16:22:45 ThickAsThieves: "The terms of coinlenders have changed - there's no longer a personal guarantee on the loans. As there's no guarantee AND there's no disclosure of assets backing the deposits (and they can be used for speculation not just for safe loans) I'm not certain Coinlenders even meets our investment criteria any more." says Deprived

16:22:53 pankkake: so housing and investment >+10% yet the rest is much lower. totally not a bubble

16:23:45 mircea_popescu: in other news... https://www.google.com/search?q=the-anatomy-of-a-scam&complete=0

16:23:48 mircea_popescu: im #3.

16:24:08 ThickAsThieves: not for everyone

16:24:22 ThickAsThieves: google SEO is impossible to peg now

16:24:25 mircea_popescu: pankkake ello sir. we here at us house proud to say we no serve bubble here. no bubble at all!

16:24:38 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves what do you see ?

16:24:41 ThickAsThieves: #7

16:25:04 ThickAsThieves: still pretty good tho

16:25:14 pankkake: 3 for me. I am not logged in, when you are, it's often different

16:25:19 ThickAsThieves: yeah

16:25:28 mircea_popescu: i used to think if you use random ip w/o history of search they jsuit give you "the" results

16:25:32 mircea_popescu: seems not anymore.

16:26:16 pankkake: I use https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/no-cookie-for-google-search/

16:26:55 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves anyway, it's especially good because it's rare for a month-old article to compete well with year+ old articles.

16:27:01 ThickAsThieves: it's funny cuz fraudsters is obv MORE relevant to me

16:27:09 ThickAsThieves: yet ranks lower when google knows its me

16:27:16 mircea_popescu: lol ai wins

16:28:03 mircea_popescu: i wonder if the girl's post irked the scammer so now he's going to push his scamset to 5 just to prove how very wrong we all are.

16:29:55 ThickAsThieves: is there a finance term for this specific type of manipulation? where you sell something, then use the same money to buy up your own thing and run the price up and up

16:30:22 ThickAsThieves: Activemining and Labcoin do it so much

16:30:47 ThickAsThieves: ActM did sorta fade away from it when Labcoin started

16:31:06 ThickAsThieves: but daily you see the pump then the dump

16:31:21 ThickAsThieves: i guess that term is good enough

16:33:27 ThickAsThieves: cheap LABCO shares on Havelock

16:33:30 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves wash trading, for the wash trading part.

16:33:36 mircea_popescu: pump and dump, for the pump and dump part.

16:33:38 jurov: i see the mp's anatomy in the very end of first page

16:33:48 mircea_popescu: jurov so 9 ? 10 ?

16:34:05 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves what are they at on havelock ?

16:34:12 jurov: 10

16:34:27 ThickAsThieves: 33ish

16:34:33 mircea_popescu: heh.

16:34:40 ThickAsThieves: very little movement there too

16:34:44 mircea_popescu: i guess this suggests topace's not in on the scam.

16:35:05 ThickAsThieves: spread is 26 - 33

16:36:47 pankkake: "I think people are missing the significance of a 50% div payout. Most people will reinvest it into ACtM and that will give the share price much needed buying pressure and stabilise the stock at a reasonable level.

16:37:11 pankkake: that would be shareholders buying shares the money the gave to buy shares

16:37:15 mircea_popescu: pankkake because paying dividends out of investor's capital is not fraudulent now.

16:37:30 mircea_popescu: people just don't want to grok what a ponzi is.

16:39:08 johnnyfootball: OMG LABCOIN

16:41:54 louong: LABCOIN passes ACTIVEMINING soon?

16:42:04 Rulother: soon

16:42:13 Rulother: They actually posted pics of "chips" :P

16:42:23 Rulother: or a chip rather

16:42:29 louong: yum, chips.

16:43:16 ThickAsThieves: lol

16:43:18 ThickAsThieves: amazine

16:43:20 ThickAsThieves: g

16:44:39 ThickAsThieves: i wonder if labcoin holders realize that no single one of them has 39.5btc to make orders like these

16:45:08 Rulother: someone is cashing out lol

16:45:10 zoinky: there it is

16:45:18 johnnyfootball: dat volume

16:45:25 johnnyfootball: *dump*

16:45:33 ThickAsThieves: time to buy stock in BTCT

16:47:04 johnnyfootball: BTCTC IPO coming soon?

16:47:19 johnnyfootball: "this is not money"

16:49:49 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: what's ETA on fraudsters going back up?

16:49:52 thestringpuller: if you have one lol

16:50:19 TradeFortress: coinlenders is closed :P

16:50:32 mircea_popescu: should be hours.

17:04:17 mod6: let's see how it does now...

17:05:29 mircea_popescu: At a Chaos Computer Club event in August 2011, Daniel Domscheit-Berg announced its preliminary launch and invited hackers to test the security of the OpenLeaks system, as a result of which the CCC criticized him for exploiting the good name of the club to promote his OpenLeaks project and expelled him from their club, despite his lack of membership.

17:05:32 mircea_popescu: teh lulz.

17:06:24 mod6: YOU CAN'T RENT HERE ANYMORE!

17:06:59 mod6: <3 clerks

17:07:20 TomServo: What a domscheit.

17:07:54 mircea_popescu: guy destroyed the leaked us no fly list, among a bunch of other stuff. total mole.

17:10:03 TradeFortress: anyone that has some intelligence mind replying? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=283756.0

17:11:34 mircea_popescu: TradeFortress what are you trying to do there ?

17:12:02 mircea_popescu: provide software for people trying to run their own bonds ?

17:12:14 TradeFortress: mircea_popescu, ok, I guess I did a bad job explaining the changes cuz you don't get it

17:12:16 TradeFortress: I'll pm

17:13:47 Rulother: Time for the balancing act

17:13:56 Rulother: sell this buy that

17:14:03 Doctor_Andonuts: lol

17:14:25 Graet: gotta say "demo instance" makes me want to withdraw my coins

17:16:07 Rulother: looks like you baited Swede in, mp

17:16:23 mircea_popescu: Rulother it's funny how he simply went through the scammer argument list.

17:16:44 TradeFortress: Graet, anything you want to ask me about?

17:16:48 mircea_popescu: supposedly if he affirms the oldest btc business is bad that makes his shit fine.

17:17:14 Graet: i was just going to bed when i noticed changes

17:17:51 Rulother: Frankly I couldn't see a way to truly debate the acquisition without any sort of evidence

17:18:01 Rulother: from both sides

17:18:06 TradeFortress: Graet, go to bed (I should too), look at what has changed

17:18:32 TradeFortress: I expect the dust will settle soon

17:19:18 fractal: has anyone here recieved a working 400Gh/sec Bitfury miner?

17:19:21 fractal: http://bitbet.us/bet/520/bitfury-eu-august-orders-will-ship-before-1st/

17:19:27 ozbot: BitBet - Bitfury EU August orders will ship before 1st September 2013

17:19:28 Graet: well since i deposited coins the site has changed to have a disclaimer about nothing being real and now its a "demo" not sure what to think/ask atm

17:19:44 fractal: trying to see if this bet will resolve no... it looks like punin missed performance specs and is trying to ship additional hardware to make up for it

17:20:01 mircea_popescu: fractal afaik the one report was of one guy doing 60gh at 54 watts

17:20:41 TradeFortress: Graet, the same way you should think about a " fictional fantasy stock market simulation" or a site that "takes no responsibility"

17:20:54 Graet: hmm need to edit "support" page What is CoinLenders?

17:20:54 Graet: CoinLenders is a website that offers (and keeps track of) bitcoin loans, and also offers credit ratings / ID verifications. We also plan on additional features over time.

17:20:59 fractal: so, there needs to be at least 5 reports, and one of them has to at least show a working, self-contained 400Gh unit?

17:21:15 TradeFortress: Graet, that's technically correct, it's just part of the demo.

17:22:03 zoinky: too many technicalities

17:22:11 Rulother: technically

17:22:30 fractal: punin has admitted the hardware is falling short on performance, and is shipping additional hardware to make up for it. there is a lot of discussion on bitbet. If you do the math, -- it makes it imporssible for 400Gh unit to hit specs.

17:22:57 mircea_popescu: perhaps.

17:23:06 mircea_popescu: what i've seen was two boards each hashing > 25gh tho

17:23:22 fractal: mircea_popescu: If noone posts evidence of a 400Gh unit then the bet is a NO. correct?

17:24:06 mircea_popescu: yeah, need at least an example of each type

17:24:40 fractal: mircea_popescu: can you fwd a link for that? nobody on the forums has a single board above 25Gh.. they're all running around 19-20Gh.

17:24:43 mircea_popescu: how do you do the math coming out that 400gh is impossible ?

17:25:00 mircea_popescu: wasn't anduck's thing hashing ~60gh at 54 watts ?

17:25:05 mircea_popescu: or was it 50gh

17:25:23 Anduck: 68 ghash

17:25:29 Anduck: at 52 watts actually

17:25:33 mircea_popescu: fractal https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.msg3025781#msg3025781 this thuing

17:25:38 Anduck: or 67 ghash..

17:25:42 Anduck: it varies a little

17:26:16 fractal: mircea_popescu: the bitbury architecture is modular -- inside the 400Gh miner case, there is a M-board with 16 slots on it -- each M-board is only hashing around 20Gh, as per punin's admission. ... therefore the maximum hashrate inside a single self-contained unit, or device, is 320Gh.

17:26:29 Anduck: they were sold as kits

17:26:37 Anduck: a kit promised 25 ghash or 400 ghash

17:26:44 Anduck: they all get what they were promised

17:26:56 Anduck: and their kits deliver the _promised performance_ that the bet was about

17:27:11 Anduck: the bet was about "promised performance" and 5 confirmed deliveries, right?

17:27:29 fractal: Anduck: No, you're wrong, read the bet language. a 400Gh 'DEVICE' has to exist... as in a single unit.

17:27:34 fractal: This does not exist.

17:27:42 mircea_popescu: o boy. this is gonna be one of those huh.

17:27:46 Anduck: there never was going to be a device of 400 ghash???

17:28:06 Anduck: fractal: they were and always were sold as kits

17:28:11 Anduck: the wording "unit" means "kit" in the bet

17:28:16 Anduck: i know it because i wrote it

17:28:23 Anduck: i chose a little bad word

17:28:38 Anduck: but what i meant is that customer gets the performance he ordered

17:28:42 fractal: Anduck: 'Kit" ... not 'KITS' .... they missed performance. punin has admitted it

17:28:54 Anduck: a kit is a kit..

17:29:12 Anduck: the customer promised performance is met within the kit

17:29:32 Anduck: people who bought starter kit will be delivered atleast 25ghash hashing miner

17:29:32 fractal: thats not what the bet says -- sorry

17:29:46 fractal: Anduck: thats great -- but thats not what they bet says

17:29:50 Anduck: i don't really see how one could understand the wording so wrong

17:29:53 Anduck: thats really only semantics

17:30:41 fractal: Anduck: Words are words. No 400Gh miner exists. mircea_popescu stated that one has to be posted to the forums as a confirmed delivery. the only way this bet can be a yes at this point is for someone to lie --

17:30:53 Anduck: dude fractal... "Devices must meet advertised performance (25 GH/s unit 40W, 400 GH/s unit 400W)" < as you can see, the condition is in the ( and ). and the condition is met

17:31:24 Anduck: 400 ghash kit is built from the h-boards that are used in the 25gh kit, too

17:31:45 fractal: Anduck: no, you're wrong.

17:31:48 Anduck: i also do not see it as a requirement that someone from the 5 confirmed deliveries must have ordered exactly 400 ghash kit

17:32:05 Anduck: well it's only semantics after that. Customers got what they were promised.

17:32:11 fractal: Anduck: mircea_popescu himself stated that it needs to be 400Gh AND under 400W. I have chat logs. it was from 2 days ago.

17:32:29 fractal: Anduck: sorry for you, but the language in the statement disagrees with you.

17:32:41 Anduck: that is only semantics as i said.

17:32:55 fractal: Anduck: which means the bet is a NO.

17:32:58 Anduck: the customer promises _are_ met 100%

17:33:03 Anduck: and the bet was about that

17:33:31 fractal: Anduck: no they weren't. no 400Gh unit exists as per punin's admission --- also, thats not what the statement says.

17:33:32 Anduck: the "promised performance" means that customers will get the hashing rate they ordered at the energy cost they were told it will eat

17:33:37 fractal: punin: "We're currently shipping 2 H-cards with starter kit (until we have boards and software that delivers 25GH)"

17:33:49 fractal: Anduck: not according to mircea_popescu's comments 2 days ago.

17:34:06 fractal: Anduck: sorry, be more carfeful next time when you read the bet statement.

17:34:10 Anduck: i don't see why it wouldn't be as i said.

17:34:19 fractal: Anduck: because "English"

17:34:25 Anduck: it's only semantics after the real deal: [20:33:31] <Anduck> the "promised performance" means that customers will get the hashing rate they ordered at the energy cost they were told it will eat

17:34:36 Anduck: it's ONLY semantics

17:34:38 fractal: Anduck: again, thats not what the bet says. I'm very sorry.

17:35:00 Anduck: but that was exact quote from the bet... i'll stop fighting with you now :I

17:35:57 mircea_popescu: well the best i can do for either side atm is to say we'll see how this turns out.

17:36:29 Anduck: mircea_popescu: just a question, how much do the semantics affect the bet outcome?

17:36:46 Anduck: if the _bet_ itself is a clear thing how it should be understood

17:36:46 kleeck: lol

17:36:55 kleeck: Are you asking if words matter?

17:36:56 fractal: Anduck: Which means there needs to be a 400Gh unit delivered that provides 400Gh in a single 'DEVICE', or 'UNIT' as per language in the bet.... punin has stated that they are shipping additional hardware "(until we have boards and software that delivers 25GH)" --- 16H-cards less then 25Gh means they failed to produce a 400Gh unit

17:37:15 Anduck: kleeck: i am asking that is the actual wording/semantics more important than the bet itself

17:37:26 kleeck: Don't the words comprise the bet?

17:37:34 fractal: Anduck: yes. What the bet actaully SAYS matters more then statement -- I specifically came in here 2 days ago to ask mircea_popescu specifics about this

17:37:54 Anduck: kleeck: if one thinks that unit/device is not a kit (in this bet)

17:37:58 fractal: err, the statement i mean

17:38:17 fractal: Anduck: The word 'KIT' is totally non-existant in the bet languge

17:38:19 Anduck: the statement is absolotely clear in my eyes, except there should've been better words

17:38:36 Anduck: all the units and devices shouldve been "kit" so there wouldn't be this semantics mess

17:38:44 mircea_popescu: lol. i guess this is how a good bet works, it's totally clear to everyone except it doesn't match.

17:39:01 Anduck: fractal: but everyone knows that a device or unit means a kit since they only sold kits

17:39:05 Anduck: they didnt sell units or devices

17:39:06 Anduck: only kits

17:39:17 Anduck: so i think it's perfectly clear we're talking about kits when we talk about units

17:39:23 fractal: Anduck: Thats not true...

17:39:25 kleeck: In my experience, the wording is always important. It frames the expectation of any given interaction.

17:39:32 Anduck: but it is, fractal. they sell KITS

17:40:01 fractal: Anduck: You are spreading misinformation... there is a specific 400Ghash miner -- look at this picture. http://imageshack.us/a/img407/6741/1bzj.png

17:40:30 fractal: I dont know how I can be any more clear that this is a single device --- Notice how it is a 'box' that has '400Ghash miner' written on it with white letters? http://imageshack.us/a/img407/6741/1bzj.png

17:40:31 mircea_popescu: kleeck there's always going to be some edge. natural language is what it is.

17:40:50 Anduck: fractal: that case is not part of the bet nor is that case in the bfsb.com shop

17:40:51 fractal: Anduck: please let me know if you have trouble loading this image, i can mirror it for you somehwere else

17:40:52 Anduck: or ever was

17:40:59 kleeck: Yes. The "edge" is in clearly communicating. :)

17:41:08 Anduck: that picture is not bfsb.com product. the customer made it himself

17:41:19 Anduck: i mean, the case in that picture*

17:41:29 mircea_popescu: "clearly communicating" is not something of reality sadly.

17:41:35 fractal: Anduck: http://imageshack.us/a/img11/6249/krlv.png

17:41:51 Anduck: fractal: as i said, that case is not a bfsb product

17:41:54 Anduck: it's customer made

17:42:07 fractal: Anduck, i'm not done posting picture.... http://imageshack.us/a/img11/6249/krlv.png see inside the case? the M-board. it only fits 16 cards.

17:42:10 Anduck: fractal: http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/shop/

17:42:15 Anduck: they dont sell units or devices, they sell kits

17:42:28 Anduck: who says a kit can't include 2 m-boards?

17:42:43 fractal: Anduck: The language on the bet says it can't.

17:42:58 kleeck: I disagree mircea_popescu. I understand that there are situations, like this one, but there are ways of being more clear and less clear. Therefore clearity exists even if on a spectrum..

17:43:01 Anduck: i think the statement is more importnat

17:43:12 kleeck: (Sorry to derail!)

17:43:20 Anduck: kleeck: what do you think, what's clearer way to understand the statement of the bet?

17:43:34 mircea_popescu: kleeck the problem is that you only have clear communication in retrospect.

17:43:38 fractal: Anduck: I came in here specifically to ask mircea_popescu and he said that a 400Gh 'UNIT' must exist --- based on the math, it can't

17:43:47 mircea_popescu: otherwise any statement can be elongated ad infinitum with requests for definitions

17:43:50 Anduck: fractal: it can.. and based on math it does

17:43:56 kleeck: I haven't read it yet. I will if you want. I was chiming in more to the point of "do semantics matter" - I'll read the bet.

17:43:56 mircea_popescu: as all words are ultimately circular constructs.

17:43:56 fractal: Anduck: no, it doesn't.

17:44:14 Anduck: i have 3 h-boards.. they eat 54 watts from the wall

17:44:19 Anduck: and give 68 ghash

17:44:24 fractal: Anduck: Shipping additonal hardware because the company missed spec does not mean that there is a 400Gh UNIT

17:44:39 Anduck: fractal: they sell kits, not units

17:44:43 Anduck: they ship what they promised

17:44:52 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet language says

17:44:53 Anduck: they just said that the kit will include more h-boards than it was meant to

17:45:06 Anduck: that doesn't mean it doesn't meet the performance promise of the kit/unit

17:45:07 fractal: Anduck: Sorry, again, thats not what the bet language says

17:45:17 Anduck: but that is the statement, isn't it??

17:45:28 kleeck: Is the debate around the phrase, "mining units"?

17:45:35 Anduck: yeah

17:45:39 Anduck: bfsb only sold kits

17:45:45 Anduck: so i think unit should be understood as kit

17:45:54 Anduck: customers were promised 25gh or 400gh miners

17:46:02 Anduck: which would use 40W or 400W or less

17:46:15 Anduck: and the customers are getting delivered those performances

17:46:49 kleeck: So, they are getting kits instead of completed devices and those devices are meeting spec?

17:47:00 fractal: Anduck: 68 /3 = 22.... 22*16 = 352Gh maximum in a single 'Miner', or selft contained 'unit' or 'kit..... This does not exist because the manufactuere missed performance specs.... The bet says nothing of customer relations by refunding or sending more hardware

17:47:23 Anduck: no need for 16 h-boards in the 400gh kit

17:47:46 fractal: Anduck: I only placed a NO bet because I didn't belive they'd hit 400Gh in a single unit. BFL missed, and others. The bet says that there should be a 400Gh unit shipped, and it should be under 400W.... it might be under 400W, but its not 400Gh

17:47:50 Anduck: there can be (and will be) enough h-boards so the 400gh kit does 400 ghash

17:48:07 kleeck: Are the assembled kits meeting spec once made into a mining unit?

17:48:13 fractal: Anduck: not on a single unit -- as the language says in the bet

17:48:22 fractal: Anduck: thats not what the bet language says.

17:48:34 Anduck: kleeck: yes. a starter kit includes 2 h-boards and 400gh kit includes 18 or 19 h-boards

17:48:40 fractal: Anduck: you can't make a vague bet, and then claim 'semantics' when you lose

17:48:47 mircea_popescu: <fractal> Anduck: I came in here specifically to ask mircea_popescu and he said that a 400Gh 'UNIT' must exist --- based on the math, it can't <<< which snippet is this ?

17:49:23 TomServo: I don't understand the debate over kit, unit, whateverthefuck. Does the 'thing' do 400GH/s @ 400W or not?

17:49:29 TomServo: Isn't that the question?

17:49:29 mircea_popescu: this ?

17:49:30 mircea_popescu: Aug 27 17:25:45 <fractal> what if they ship 2 units to make up for lower hashrates?

17:49:30 mircea_popescu: Aug 27 17:25:58 <fractal> is the bet yes or no?

17:49:30 mircea_popescu: Aug 27 17:26:54 <mircea_popescu> (25 GH/s unit 40W, 400 GH/s unit 400W)

17:49:30 mircea_popescu: Aug 27 17:28:25 <mircea_popescu> fractal seems pretty clear cut neh ?

17:49:30 mircea_popescu: Aug 27 17:28:43 <fractal> mircea_popescu: just double checking.

17:49:44 fractal: mircea_popescu: yeah thats it...

17:49:44 kleeck: TomServo, no, that isn't the question.

17:49:51 fractal: 400Gh 'UNIT' --- UNIT people ---

17:49:52 Anduck: and as customers weren't sold specifically 1 or 16 h-boards, the kits can include any amount of those.. the kits must meet the promised performance and they seem to do so

17:50:04 kleeck: ;ud unit

17:50:09 kleeck: im so bad at irc

17:50:13 Anduck: a mining unit, 400 gh mining unit, is built from several h-boards and m-boards

17:50:19 mircea_popescu: ;;define unit

17:50:22 fractal: Anduck: well I only placed a no bet based on the language of a UNIT being a self-containted device that is attached....

17:50:23 mircea_popescu: awell

17:50:36 kleeck: we certainly can't google this...

17:50:40 Anduck: fractal: then you tried to work the semantics against the statement of the bet or what?

17:50:51 mircea_popescu: fractal in fairness, the "self contained device" part is also not in the bet text.

17:51:08 mircea_popescu: kleeck bitbet is a fascinating exercise in the limits of communication.

17:51:35 Anduck: the statement is super clear in my eyes, really. people get what they ordered. people get the hashrate at the watts they were promised. the performance requirement (which the bet was about) IS met.

17:51:36 fractal: mircea_popescu: right.... but in fairness, the bet doesn't say that the manufactuere can miss hashrate performance on a single 25Gh board, and ship more to make up for it!

17:51:36 kleeck: mircea_popescu, I rather enjoy what is coming of it.

17:51:51 mircea_popescu: human language is not meaningful unless the receptor supplies context to make it meaningful. the contexts receptors supply often vary.

17:52:04 mircea_popescu: the attempt to make the context entirely explicit is burdensome and provably doomed.

17:52:13 mircea_popescu: fractal right.

17:52:20 mircea_popescu: hence my "o, this is going to be one of those".

17:52:21 fractal: Anduck: The performance requirement was *not* met. No single H-card operates at 25Gh!

17:52:21 Anduck: fractal: the 25gh unit is a 25gh kit as sold for customers, doesn't say it must include 1 h-board.

17:52:37 fractal: Anduck: Sorry, the language doesn't say 'KIT'

17:52:37 Anduck: but the UNIT does!!!

17:53:21 mircea_popescu: fractal also why i asked you if it's your first time and advised you go small. these things do happen.

17:53:32 Anduck: the -performance- promised to customers is met. customers get exactly the performance they ordered.

17:53:50 fractal: Anduck: Again, the language of the bet doesn't match up with the fact that performance was missed on the 25Gh board,,, the fact that they got more or were satisfied is irrelevant

17:54:02 kleeck: Yes. What I'm seeing is the classic, "Oh come on, we all knew the intended bet!" Which isn't a sound defense. The debate must center around the words used to describe the bet. If the product is a "mining unit" and meets the spec in the bet, then Anduck is correct, else fractal is correct.

17:54:24 Anduck: a mining unit is a mining kit, isn't it?

17:54:41 fractal: kleeck: Just like BFL shipped out multiple units to compensate, that is what punin is doing.

17:54:49 fractal: kleeck: If it's multiple mining units, then Anduck is not correct..

17:54:49 Anduck: there was and never could've been a single card producing 400 ghash, it was sold as a "h-cards enough to make 400 ghash unit". RIGHT?

17:55:08 kleeck: The Honorable Judge Kleeck Presiding!

17:55:17 kleeck: Bring forth your evidence!

17:55:23 Anduck: customers ordered 400 gh mining kits.. and they got what were promised

17:55:31 mircea_popescu: fractal bfl didn't actually ship tho,

17:55:36 mircea_popescu: it wasn't the case they shipped MORe units.

17:55:36 fractal: Anduck: No, its not. The bet says nothing of a KIT. it says a mining unit. Somehing that is a single prodcut attacted..... 2 seperate products adding up to more then 400Gh mean that the manufacturer missed performance spec for that unit

17:55:38 kleeck: "RIMSHOT!"

17:55:38 Anduck: well the customers were promised 400 gh miner.............

17:55:58 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says

17:56:05 Anduck: well the bet is about performance, not the amount of h-boards used to produce the performance of the unit

17:56:29 kleeck: There are multiple clauses in the bet that must be true for it to be "YES".

17:56:43 Anduck: yes

17:56:54 Anduck: they must be delivered this month

17:57:06 kleeck: and?

17:57:16 Anduck: bfsb kits must be delivered this month.. .and

17:57:27 fractal: Anduck: If the bet language said "If punin can't make a 400Gh single device, he's allow to ship as much hardware as he wan'ts, and we'll just consider it a 'KIT' "" --- if it said that, there's no way in my right mind i would have bet NO... it would be an impossible bet to win

17:57:35 Anduck: they must meet the advertised performance (25gh @ 40W and 400gh @ 400W)

17:57:45 Anduck: and 5 deliveres of bfsb kits must be confirmed

17:57:46 fractal: you removed the word UNIT didn't you??? very sneaky!

17:57:46 kleeck: and they have to be a "mining unit" and they have to hash at the given rates and draw at the given powers.

17:57:47 mircea_popescu: fractal why'd it have impossible to win ?

17:58:30 fractal: mircea_popescu: becaucause he could ship as much hardware to make up for it -- provided the power usage was low enough.... but I placed the bet based on Power usage AND hashrate in a single self-contained UNIT

17:58:37 Anduck: fractal: he's allowed to ship as much h-boards and m-boards needed to get the performance. it wouldn't break the bet.... if they would eat more watts than promised, that would be a bet-breaker

17:58:37 fractal: UNIT

17:58:52 fractal: Anduck: Not according to the language though...

17:58:53 Anduck: fractal: yeah i did, can be unit or miner or kit

17:59:13 Anduck: we're talking about kits as units anyway since they never sold single units. they're KITS

17:59:13 mircea_popescu: fractal well ya but it wouldn't be economically feasible to do so

17:59:16 mircea_popescu: he can't like, ship gpus

17:59:21 Anduck: indeed

17:59:26 Anduck: the performance must be met. and it is met

17:59:37 fractal: Anduck: I dont see any mention of KIT on there. And If i read the language the performance is not met in a device.

17:59:42 Anduck: if he shipped GPU's, the performance (400 gh @ 400 watts) wouldn't be met

17:59:47 fractal: Anduck: No its not met.. punin admits they are under-hashing

17:59:50 Anduck: the unit is the same thing as a kit

18:00:04 Anduck: it's clear because it says 25gh unit and 400 gh unit

18:00:11 fractal: Anduck: No, 400Gh unit is a single device, not multiple devices.

18:00:23 Anduck: it's very clear it means the promised miner ( a kit or a unit)

18:00:34 fractal: UNIT.... not 'oh we ship as much hardware to make up for it if the manufacturer misses specs'

18:00:43 fractal: Anduck: actaully, its not clear at all

18:01:00 Anduck: fractal: they can ship as much h-boards as they want but the PERFORMANCE must be met

18:01:15 Anduck: the promised performance of the customer-bought kits must be met?

18:01:24 Anduck: or units, anything you want to call it

18:01:25 fractal: Anduck: not according to the language of the bet.

18:01:34 mircea_popescu: anyway, for the lovers of history, here's a recent previous dispute http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-08-2013&display=show#202828

18:01:49 kleeck: Oooh. precedent!

18:01:51 fractal: http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/

18:02:13 fractal: From the website " What’s included: 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"

18:02:15 mircea_popescu: kleeck there's also a very lulzy one on the forum and here from back in march. some guy named rikur and some other guy

18:02:18 fractal: thats what was advertised

18:02:24 mircea_popescu: but that was hardly bringhing any solid points

18:02:47 Anduck: fractal: the bet was about promised performance, not about promised hardware

18:02:52 kleeck: Does bitbet need an arbiter of justice? I'd love that role... also the title.

18:03:14 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the English on the bet says. It says the 400 Gh 'UNIT'

18:03:15 Anduck: mircea_popescu: that log you linked is about the s.dice vs s.mpoe bet?

18:03:19 mircea_popescu: yea

18:03:23 fractal: UNIT. as in what was advertised -- From the website " What’s included: 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"

18:03:31 fractal: They weren't able to deliver this

18:03:33 fractal: that is a fact.

18:03:35 Anduck: mircea_popescu: when s.dice dropped out of MPEX, the value was considered zero?

18:03:56 Anduck: fractal: they didn't deliver the promised hardware, yes. but they delivered the promised performance of the units

18:04:06 Anduck: the units that were sold, they were 25gh unit and 400gh unit

18:04:19 fractal: Anduck: No, they didn't the units don't hit 400Gh as advertised --

18:04:34 fractal: They have to ship additional hardware SPECIFICALLY Because they missed advertised specs

18:04:49 fractal: I hope you can understand this

18:04:51 Anduck: they missed specs of the h-board but not the kit/unit/miner

18:04:53 mircea_popescu: Anduck iirc it weas like "bbet mkt cap on mpex will exceed sdice mkt cap"

18:05:05 fractal: Anduck: and the 400Gh miner includes 16 H-bords -- AS ADVERTISED

18:05:26 Anduck: well mircea_popescu.. wasn't that kinda clear? if there's no cap of s.dice at mpex, it's same as zero cap

18:05:36 fractal: Anduck: for the bet to be yes, "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" has to exist -- and it doesn't

18:05:49 Anduck: fractal: wasn't about advertised hardware... it was about the performance

18:05:58 Anduck: and the performance is absolutely met

18:06:00 mircea_popescu: Anduck no argument, it is clear. was just giving exampel of previous contentions

18:06:06 fractal: Anduck: It missed performance. It's not 400Gh

18:06:12 fractal: Anduck: No, performance is not met.

18:06:34 fractal: Anduck: thats why they're shipping additional hardware. Why would they send more hardware then promised if performance is met? They woudln't.

18:06:45 fractal: Anduck: they are shipping additional hardware because performance was NOT met

18:07:05 fractal: Again, 1 unit was advertised as "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"

18:07:15 Anduck: the performance is met.. performance of the unit: hashrate @ power usage

18:07:33 Anduck: the units that customers get do have the performance of 25gh at 40 watts max

18:07:43 Anduck: OR 400gh at 400 watts max

18:08:01 fractal: Anduck: No, performance is not met. The 400Gh miner does not perform 400Gh.

18:08:15 fractal: A miner is as advertised ""1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips""

18:08:16 Anduck: and as the 400 gh units are built from same h-boards as 25 gh units, it's clear that 400 gh @ 400 watt performance is met like the 25gh @ 40W is met

18:08:34 Anduck: the 400gh miner performs 400 gh at the promised watts.

18:08:44 kleeck: I think there's only one solution to this. Duel to the death!

18:08:49 Anduck: atleast my 68 ghash at 53 W _from the wall_

18:08:58 johnnyfootball: but it uses 3.5 boards instead of 4.26 boards Anduck GAH!

18:09:03 fractal: Anduck: That is not what was advertised. What was advertised was not met. 400Gh was not achived with the hardware, so they had to re-imburse customers at their own expense --- I knew they would miss these targets, which is why i bet NO

18:09:03 johnnyfootball: get with the program

18:09:26 Anduck: and 3 h-boards.. each h-board using 18 watts

18:09:36 jborkl: how many watts is it going to take to do 400gh with said device?

18:09:45 mircea_popescu: why are they underhashing anyway ? any word from manufacturer ?

18:09:57 fractal: jborkl: There is no 400Gh device....

18:10:01 Anduck: if bfsb shipped 20 h-boards for the 400gh unit, it would draw only 360 watts. and it'd provide 400gh

18:10:03 mircea_popescu: jborkl if we liniarly extrapolate about 350ish

18:10:26 Anduck: mircea_popescu: theyre underhashing most likely due to the quality of the fab and software

18:10:29 fractal: Anduck: they can't fit 20h-boards on a 400gh unit..... a 400gh unit can fix 16h-cards maximum.... hence UNIT

18:10:30 jborkl: and they are going to provie customers with 400 gh as promised for the 350w draw?

18:10:41 Anduck: the performance of the h-boards itself will be most likely fixed by software, still

18:10:42 mircea_popescu: Anduck but nothing definite ?

18:11:06 fractal: jborkl: yes, but thats not what the language of the bet said.

18:11:15 jborkl: they bet is a yes then

18:11:16 Anduck: mircea_popescu: it doesn't really matter since the customers get what they were promised. and in the future they might be able to turn their miners for even powerful miners with software update

18:11:27 mircea_popescu: jborkl that's the stated intention. nobody has yet come forward having received a 400gh order

18:11:30 mircea_popescu: afaik at least.

18:11:33 fractal: Anduck: No, punin said they need to change hardware and it will be done on the next batch -- but not before september 1

18:11:37 jborkl: power is less than 400 and hash rate is at least 400

18:11:44 mircea_popescu: Anduck just curious is all.

18:11:48 fractal: jborkl: No, not in a single device

18:11:50 Anduck: mircea_popescu: will there be needed a 400 gh unit delivered?

18:12:18 mircea_popescu: Anduck what do you mean by "unit" :p

18:12:19 Anduck: fractal: yeah but it still can be -possibly- fixed with sw.

18:12:26 jurov: so, nobody actually ordered 400gh unit?

18:12:27 Anduck: mircea_popescu: the thing bfsb sold

18:12:30 fractal: Anduck: if i recall logs correctly, mircea_popescu stated a 400gh device would have to be proven.... i'll have to check logs again tho.

18:12:31 Anduck: 25gh unit and 400 gh unit

18:12:37 jborkl: the word "units" in the bet is irrevelvant

18:12:39 jurov: or they did order and got 2 boxes instead?

18:12:54 jurov: for the same price?

18:12:57 jborkl: since unit is not defined

18:13:04 fractal: jborkl: Its not irrelvant since its in the bet.... UNIT means a single device

18:13:04 Anduck: fractal: i don't see why.. the performance is met and it can be proven from the hashrate@power usage of the smaller hashrate miners

18:13:25 fractal: jborkl: a 400Gh was advertised as "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"" -- this will not be shipped

18:13:58 fractal: it says int he bet 'AS ADVERTISED'

18:14:13 Anduck: jurov: people ordered 25gh unit (was meant to be 1 h-board + 1 m-board) but they were delivered 1 m-board and 2 h-boards instead.. for the same price. that was because the performance of the single h-board didn't meet the 25ghash -> they had to add another 25gh board in the kit)

18:14:22 mircea_popescu: in retrospect i think this is absolutely the first time a genuine wording problem has come to fore. the previous one (on the bfl specs) was thoroughly manufactured by dishonest blf.

18:14:35 jborkl: advertised performance, not size or space taken up as i see it

18:15:04 Anduck: indeed

18:15:08 Anduck: nor the hardware

18:15:12 fractal: I went to bitfurystrikesback.com and looked at what was advertised -- I thought, no way they'll get 400Gh on that M-board with 16 cards -- they might hit power -- but I don't think they'll get 400Gh out of that --- I put my money where my mouth is, and I was right--

18:15:21 fractal: again, this is only as advertised

18:15:21 Anduck: it's only about the advertised performance, 400 ghash miner for 400 warrs

18:15:23 Anduck: watts*

18:15:24 kleeck: http://imgur.com/npay8GA

18:15:26 ozbot: imgur: the simple image sharer

18:15:42 Anduck: lol

18:15:54 mircea_popescu: .bait

18:16:00 fractal: hahah

18:16:00 ozbot: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdiv61SY3E1qksua0o1_500.jpg

18:16:07 jurov: http://thegenesisblock.com/bitfury-400-ghs-bitcoin-mining-rig-hits-us-shores/ interprets it so that "the miner gives only 380GH/s"

18:16:11 ozbot: Bitfury 400 GH/s Bitcoin Mining Rig Hits US Shores - The Genesis Block

18:17:23 jurov: "Full kits include a main board, 16 hashing boards, a raspberry pi, and cables to set up the miner."

18:17:24 jborkl: Network passed 600TH

18:17:24 Anduck: jurov: the units/kits will be hashing the promised hashrate

18:17:38 fractal: jurov: " Bitfury 400 GH/s Miner – currently hashing at 380 GH/s on 16 cards. " -- thats correct -- punin admitted it missed hashrate specs -- they will fix it in next manufacturing batch, but its impossible to do that and ship by sept 1---

18:18:06 jurov: but they aren't 400gh yet

18:18:17 Anduck: jurov: full kits include more h-boards because of the performance problems with h-boards. but the unit of 400ghash is 400ghash, dependless of the amount of h-boards in the unit/kit/miner

18:18:40 fractal: jurov: Anduck's argument is that if they send more hardware for free then it counts as being part of the same device

18:18:43 Anduck: the bet was about the advertised performance, that be 400gh unit will produce 400gh and it will do it for less than the 400 watts

18:19:06 fractal: Anduck: That's not what the language in the bet says though.... seriously... I'm sorry you weren't more specific

18:19:08 jurov: so, are the kits with multiple h-boards actually sold?

18:19:22 Anduck: the bet wasn't about the amount of hardware delivered... it was about the kits/units and thheir performance

18:19:22 fractal: jurov: No kit with multiple H-board was ever sold

18:19:31 Anduck: jurov: yeah

18:19:36 Anduck: i mean

18:19:42 fractal: jurov: http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/

18:19:47 Anduck: 400 gh kit includes enough h-boards to make 400 gh miner

18:19:48 fractal: they are sold with 1 M-board

18:19:58 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what was advertised

18:20:02 mircea_popescu: anyway, fractal, since you're new : are you familiar with how you can cancel out bitbet bets ?

18:20:06 Anduck: fractal: they didn't meet the advertised hardware amount. but they meet the advertised performance by far!!

18:20:07 jurov: if anyone ordered that, he will receive 1 board or more?

18:20:30 fractal: Anduck: A 400Gh unit with "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" was advertised

18:20:41 fractal: mircea_popescu: no, i'm not..... can both sides agree to cancel the bet?

18:20:45 mircea_popescu: mpoe-pr "lol yknow eventually there's gonna bet a channel dedicated to debating bitbet wording"

18:20:55 mircea_popescu: lemme see if i manage to dig up this

18:21:11 kleeck: #bitbetwars

18:21:12 jurov: i think if they don't ship more boards as a kit to fullfill the 400gh, then it's clearly false

18:21:23 jurov: the bet. i mean

18:22:25 Anduck: fractal: that was the advertised hardware... the bet wasn't about advertised hardware. it was about advertised performance. 400gh for 400 watts. people ordered a kit which produces that and they get what they ordered

18:22:45 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says

18:23:20 fractal: Anduck: The best doesn't say 'If the 400Gh miner only mines at 380Gh' they can ship more hardware and its a yes

18:23:26 jurov: Anduck: if you bought 400gh for some amount of money and then you'd found out you have to buy more hardware to get 400gh

18:23:42 jurov: then it would *not* meet expected perf

18:23:43 jurov: for you

18:23:44 Anduck: jurov: you don't..

18:23:53 Anduck: jurov: you pay for the 400 gh and you get the 400 gh

18:24:03 jborkl: jurov: they are shipping 400gh that draws 350w

18:24:11 fractal: jurov: they're compensating. and thats great... But the bet doesn't say that

18:24:16 jborkl: so I see it as a yes

18:24:24 jborkl: but I don't get a vote

18:24:26 fractal: jurov: there needs to be a 400Gh UNIT -- which doesn't exist

18:24:27 Anduck: everyone gets the hashrate they paid for. and the hashrate will be made within the power usage promised

18:24:42 fractal: Anduck: that's irrelevant to the bet language

18:24:44 jurov: so you will get one box with two mainboards for original price?

18:24:48 Anduck: jurov: yes

18:24:57 Anduck: the mining kit promised performance is met

18:25:26 Anduck: doesn't matter how many m-boards or h-boards are needed for the performance of the mining unit

18:25:28 Anduck: or kit

18:25:31 jurov: then that's an unit, imho... but as nothing such was actually delivered, it's undecidable

18:25:32 Anduck: or whatever you want to call it

18:25:36 fractal: jurov: thats just good customer support -- but doesn't make the fact that the 400Gh miner isn't 400Gh any different --- and thats what the bet language is about

18:26:36 fractal: Anduck: to be honest -- i'd rather cancel the bet then have a long forum discussion that takes hours of debate over the next few days -- if you'd agree... otherwise I'll have to clear my schedule ;)

18:26:46 jurov: so, i prefer to ask whether anyone actually ordered that product (regardless of actual HW)

18:27:04 jurov: because if someone ordered and did not get it yet, then bet is false

18:27:11 Anduck: mircea_popescu: can the bets be canceled, then?

18:27:29 Anduck: and is there a fee or something for that

18:27:41 Anduck: i am not canceling anything right now

18:27:48 Anduck: but i just want to know is it even possible

18:27:49 fractal: I'd cancel if Anduck agrees.

18:28:00 fractal: This will give me a headache

18:28:17 fractal: ;)

18:28:23 Anduck: well, i was right anyway

18:28:38 Anduck: they deliver the promised performance. that's it

18:28:41 Anduck: the bet was about that

18:28:50 fractal: No, you weren't -- not according to the bet langugage -- which is what matters

18:29:07 fractal: you can't just say 'Oh, that langugage is not what I meant!!'

18:29:08 Anduck: you're just trying to make "unit" be a "h-board"

18:29:17 Anduck: i think unit is the mining unit.

18:29:21 fractal: I'm trying to make a unit what was advertised -- 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips

18:29:25 fractal: thats a UNIT

18:29:26 Anduck: the mining unit can include anything

18:29:36 jurov: we need at least one 400gh fullfilled order (regardless of how many boards), does it exist?

18:29:37 fractal: its right on their website -- 400Gh mining unit "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"

18:29:43 Anduck: thats hardware promise - that wasn't met. but it wasn't about hardware

18:29:46 Anduck: it's about performance

18:30:09 fractal: jurov: it can't be regarless of h-boards because thats not what was advertised on a performance basis -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"

18:30:10 jurov: fractal, it's usual that specs are subject to change

18:30:29 jurov: promies was only about performance of whole setup

18:30:31 fractal: jurov: i dont disagree -- but not according to the bet langugae

18:30:47 jurov: for me unit = whetever was ordered

18:31:09 fractal: jurov: for most objective people a unit is a single device and 'UNITS' are multiple

18:31:17 jurov: and now i want to know whether *any* 400gh order was fullfilled

18:31:29 jurov: because it seems it was not

18:31:40 fractal: I only made the bet based on what I say on the bitfury website -- that a 400Gh unit was "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"

18:31:44 Anduck: jurov: yeah there isn't any delivered yet

18:32:01 Anduck: but there might be shipped 400 gh units.

18:32:01 jurov: and thus any bickering about what hardware the 400gh means is noot

18:32:06 jurov: *moot

18:32:23 Anduck: jurov: what do you think, does it require a delivery of 400 gh unit?

18:32:34 Anduck: since it's proven that 400gh unit will meet the spec

18:32:35 jurov: yes, certainly

18:32:41 Anduck: why?

18:32:50 Anduck: it says "5 deliveries confirmed"

18:32:57 fractal: the other thing i'm worried about is punin sending pictures to a forum user and paying them to post a 400Gh unit saying its hashing at 400Gh -- rumour has it punin made the 10BTC yes bet

18:33:05 jurov: and it's proven only of someone actually builds 400gh rig from it

18:33:08 Anduck: i made the 10btc bet

18:33:14 jurov: when has not happened either

18:33:17 jurov: *what

18:33:35 Anduck: well

18:33:45 Anduck: there actually was weeks ago a 400gh rig built from these h-boards

18:33:51 Anduck: the same that were shipped to me

18:33:54 Anduck: same kind of

18:33:59 fractal: Anduck: I'm in for nearly that on the NO side...

18:34:40 jborkl: have there been 5 deliveries of either of the units?

18:34:59 jurov: jborkl, only the 25ghs

18:35:03 Anduck: there are most likely going to be 5 deliveries of the 25gh units

18:35:09 mircea_popescu: fractal Anduck http://pastebin.com/JgudvNWW that's a paste of the article.

18:35:15 mircea_popescu: since motherfuckin server is still diddling ;/

18:36:05 fractal: Anduck: according to the wording its totally not fair for 2 M-boards or multiple hardware considered a 400gh 'unit' since the company advertised a 400Gh unit as "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"" --- to be honest -- the vagureness of the langugage makes it unfair for either side to win or lose --

18:36:10 jborkl: jurov: I would think reading it first order of business is the 5 delivery, as you were looking at

18:36:46 jurov: now the question is, whether we require proof of one 400gh order filled, too

18:36:55 jurov: or are 5x25gh sufficient

18:37:11 jborkl: I think the 5 25 would be sufficient

18:37:18 fractal: jurov: it's not just 400Gh being shipped --- its 400Gh in a single unit as advertised -- if they ship more hardware to make it up for it -- its because performance wasn't met

18:37:23 jborkl: What if no one ordered a 400?

18:37:49 fractal: jborkl: I asked mircea_popescu this question , in the logs he said he'd like to see proof of a 400Gh unit as well as a 25Gh unit ... i dont have logs tho

18:37:59 fractal: i can get them if needed tho

18:38:03 mircea_popescu: fractal they're in the topic

18:38:06 Anduck: i think the 5x 25gh would be sufficient too (but my opinion must be non-counting due to the fact i am on "yes" side of the bet)

18:38:06 Anduck: :P

18:38:10 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com

18:38:35 fractal: the problem here I think is what is a 'UNIT' --- this is what we're debating ;)

18:38:41 jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/#270705

18:38:46 mircea_popescu: jborkl how much was the 400 ? like 150 btc or something ?

18:38:48 ozbot: #bitcoin-assets log

18:39:00 jborkl: i am not sure actually

18:39:14 fractal: mircea_popescu: i'm reading the bet cancellation policy link now... thanks

18:39:31 mircea_popescu: what were the 25 selling for ?

18:39:35 mircea_popescu: Anduck what'd you pay ?

18:39:42 Anduck: mircea_popescu: there is an example of 400 ghash unit but it was a demo, not delivered unit. but that can be delivered if anyone bought it. it's the same m-boards and h-boards.. just enough of them to make the hashrate of 400gh

18:39:52 Anduck: mircea_popescu: 25gh sold for 1000 euros

18:40:08 jurov: as i said if no 400gh order was delivered, and we require at least one, then the bit was not filled

18:40:08 Anduck: i paid for 2x 25 Ghash starter kit

18:40:15 mircea_popescu: it'd be pretty crazy if nobody bought a 400 then

18:40:29 jurov: regardless whether it can be built out of smaller ones

18:40:48 Anduck: mircea_popescu: true. but we don't know was the first orders (that were shipped this week) including a 400gh miner. but it's proven that it does work if one actually bought one

18:40:58 jborkl: the bet does not specify which 5 devices

18:41:01 fractal: mircea_popescu: so you suggest cancelling bet buy betting on the other side ... the weight is too low though ;) i dont have enough BTC ;(

18:41:05 Anduck: and it works = meets the adverticed performance. it's been proven earlier

18:41:09 jborkl: and to clarify I do not have a order or a bet

18:41:24 mircea_popescu: fractal pretty much the only way it works, make your bet neutral.

18:41:29 BigBitz: What is the bet?

18:41:41 jurov: http://bitbet.us/bet/520/bitfury-eu-august-orders-will-ship-before-1st/

18:41:42 mircea_popescu: this is an important point to remember : you NEVER bet on a bet such that you can't neutralize it later should you need to.

18:41:46 mircea_popescu: just one of them things.

18:41:48 ozbot: BitBet - Bitfury EU August orders will ship before 1st September 2013

18:42:03 mircea_popescu: jborkl the rationale is that since there's an A and a B in the bet, and 5 proofs, you want those 5 proofs rto include both A and B

18:42:13 mircea_popescu: somehow, somewhere. else the bet is only half satisfied

18:42:21 Anduck: but B = X*A

18:42:22 jborkl: well, then we have our answer

18:42:23 jurov: if they failed to sell 400gh then..well it's a failure

18:42:41 Anduck: jurov: but that's just plain wrong..

18:42:42 mircea_popescu: jurov it'd be fucking crazy tho. what, they sold like 9 boards to 5 ppl ?

18:42:46 fractal: i'd agree.

18:43:26 jborkl: I do think the wording on the bets needs work, more people would bet if they were clearer

18:43:32 fractal: Forget about the 400Gh being shipped -- the issue is what defines a 'UNIT' as advertised and meeting performance specs

18:43:33 Anduck: so about the bet.. can the 5 confirmed deliveries be any orders?

18:43:51 fractal: Anduck: of course not -- if they dont ship a 400Gh order they are just like BFL

18:43:55 mircea_popescu: what do you mean any orders ?!

18:44:02 Anduck: mircea_popescu: 25gh or 400gh

18:44:07 jurov: fractal: i agree

18:44:14 mircea_popescu: well so far all we have is yours afaik.

18:44:42 mircea_popescu: more confirms of any kind can in no way hurt.

18:44:46 Anduck: they can ship 400gh.. it's built from same m-boards and h-boards.

18:44:47 Anduck: mircea_popescu: true

18:44:51 ThickAsThieves: "Further to the above, TradeFortress has announced that Coinlenders is closing - and that the current site is only a demo, but one which has the same functionality as a real site would (a similarish approach to BTC-TC's "it's just a game" stance - though actually a worse one from an investor's perspective)."

18:45:02 Anduck: mircea_popescu: how about if a 400gh unit was shipped this week but not delivered?

18:45:04 ThickAsThieves: a ponzi dies before its time?

18:45:17 Anduck: and 5 25gh starter kit orders were delivered?

18:45:35 fractal: Common man!! the bet specifically says "Delivered"

18:45:43 Anduck: 5 units delivered, yes

18:45:55 Anduck: but doesn't specify which kind of units, 25 or 400 ghash

18:46:11 Anduck: the bet is about that they will ship their boards in time and they meet the performance

18:46:21 Anduck: and i think that is met if there are 5 confirmed deliveries

18:46:29 mircea_popescu: jborkl re the wording : any time one sees a badly worded bet they can make a better worded one, which at least theoretically would create an advantage for his bet over the old bet and people would flock there.

18:46:36 Anduck: the 25gh kit and 400gh kit are built from same modular units

18:46:39 fractal: there needs to be at least 1 400Gh UNIT hashing as advertised -- and if they miss performance, sending more UNITS doesn't count

18:46:43 mircea_popescu: Anduck well no, it has to be delivered.

18:47:24 Anduck: mircea_popescu: what if nobody ordered one?

18:47:37 jurov: "will ship their 25 and 400" << it's AND not OR

18:47:39 mircea_popescu: well then wtf they made the bet including it for ?!

18:47:43 fractal: Anduck: then the statement in the bet fails.

18:47:45 fractal: its a no

18:47:47 Anduck: jurov: shipping =/= delivery

18:48:06 Anduck: the delivery is about 5 units, shipping is about 25gh and 400gh..

18:48:16 Anduck: both unit are built from same modular parts

18:48:31 Anduck: which in my eyes doesn't really need both of the mining units shipped

18:48:33 jurov: obviously the delivery and shipping should be subject to same conditions

18:48:34 mircea_popescu: i guess that's an argument.

18:48:46 fractal: Anduck: Honestly, it seems to me like you wrote a vague bet, that other people have read totally differently, and you're trying to change 'what you meant' .... its not fair man, seriously.

18:48:48 mircea_popescu: not sure how strongly persuasive

18:48:59 mircea_popescu: fractal he wrote it ?!

18:49:03 Anduck: i wrote it yes

18:49:06 Anduck: i bet the 10 btc

18:49:07 fractal: mircea_popescu: he claimes he wrote it

18:49:08 Anduck: i already said it

18:49:35 mircea_popescu: a.

18:49:50 mircea_popescu: well you know it's always good policy to get the manufacturer to write the bet, even if you want to bet on yes.

18:49:59 Anduck: yes

18:50:01 mircea_popescu: they know wtf is going on, don't include 400gh if they have no orders to ship for 400gh etc

18:50:03 Bunnyh: i see 3 requirements: a) they must ship both kinds of devices (25G and 400G) before 1st. b) both kinds of devices must meet power/speed requirements. c) 5 deliveries confirmed (this req. doesn't specify which kind of devices)

18:50:16 fractal: mircea_popescu: which I think would make it a conflict of intrest for him to debate it -- I think 3rd parties who are neutral should strictly look at the language -- otherwise he can just say 'oh, thats not what i meant!' and fuck over the NO bets ;(

18:50:37 Anduck: mircea_popescu: yeah, true. but that the bet shouldnt be failed due that.. they're all same modular cards that the mining unit is built from

18:50:40 jurov: Anduck, you really meant different conditions for shipping and delivery? i don't believe that

18:50:41 mircea_popescu: fractal he has no involvement in the decision of it tho, so why shouildn't he argue it ?

18:50:49 Anduck: it's been proven that a mining card does meet the advertised performance..

18:50:58 Anduck: jurov: not really

18:51:12 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla : http://bitbet.us/bet/520/bitfury-eu-august-orders-will-ship-before-1st/#c1295

18:51:15 Anduck: but if there wasn't any 400gh units ordered in the first ordered units

18:51:16 mircea_popescu: FIRST SPAM ON BITBET!

18:51:20 mircea_popescu: it took 8 months.

18:51:27 fractal: mircea_popescu: maybe the deciders will read these logs and the conversation on the page and be influenced

18:51:34 kakobrekla: LOL

18:51:36 mircea_popescu: i doubt they give a shit.

18:51:40 ThickAsThieves: that was me, I'm selling Chinese Kitchens

18:51:48 kakobrekla: ha

18:51:56 bobbabad_: seriously wtf is wrong with mpoe-pr? what a fucking assclown

18:52:06 ThickAsThieves: gotta have a place for the hamburgers!

18:52:22 mircea_popescu: bobbabad_ care to phrase a complaint ?

18:52:32 johnnyfootball: i heard bitfury already has a killer mining pool

18:52:34 ThickAsThieves: all this bitbet delivery betting is a chore

18:52:40 mod6: i like her, she delivers butthurt to the bitcoin masses

18:52:46 bobbabad_: mircea_popescu: is it you or is it someone working for you/mpex?

18:52:49 ThickAsThieves: i like the concept

18:52:57 ThickAsThieves: but oh bitching when they resolve...

18:52:58 mircea_popescu: it is someone working for me.

18:52:59 jurov: http://bitbet.us/bet/472/kncminer-will-deliver-asic-devices-before-october-1st/ << this will be interesting then, too

18:53:04 ozbot: BitBet - KnCMiner will deliver ASIC devices before October 1st

18:53:10 Anduck: jurov: the "will ship their 25ghash and 400gash units in time".. if there wasn't any 400 ghash units ordered in the first orders... but it's been proven that it can be built (why wouldn't it be possible? just attach the cards) and it will meet the spec

18:53:10 jurov: at least i did not mix shipping and delivery there

18:53:24 mircea_popescu: jurov word.

18:53:27 kleeck: Wow. We're still talking about this?

18:53:32 Anduck: kleeck: yes

18:53:44 ThickAsThieves: if sent via teleportation does it count as delivery?

18:53:47 mircea_popescu: dude, the may bfl delivery bet took what, two weeks ?

18:53:57 kleeck: ffs.

18:54:01 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves receipt is the measure of delivery :D

18:54:05 bobbabad_: mircea_popescu: you both seem to enjoy the occational rant but posts like this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263445.msg3036369#msg3036369

18:54:09 fractal: Bunnyh: if the 400Gh doesn't actaully hit 400Gh, would you say that the unit did not meet performance ? (Then , if the company was nice and sent a refund, or more hardware, would it change the fact that the 400Gh unit didn't hit performance hashrate" ?

18:54:09 jurov: Anduck, if no one bought 400gh unit, then they failed in bigger sense

18:54:15 Anduck: mircea_popescu: what's your opinion about the "5 delivered orders"

18:54:22 Anduck: jurov: but thats not really part of the bet

18:54:27 Anduck: they ship what people ordered

18:54:29 Anduck: thats the bet?

18:54:29 kleeck: Are we just saying the same thing over and over, guys?

18:54:35 mircea_popescu: bobbabad_ she is exacrtly right.

18:54:38 Anduck: if nobody ordered 400 ghash, then they only shipped 25 ghash

18:54:40 jurov: Anduck, both was already answered

18:54:43 ThickAsThieves: i missed this whole argument, but i say, when shit is this hard to sort, you are solving the wrong problem

18:54:44 KRS-1: i am win

18:54:46 Anduck: and 5 orders delivered.. it should be a yes,then

18:54:52 fractal: Anduck: The bet says what the bet says. if no 400Gh device is delivered, the bet is a NO

18:54:53 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves that's not even true

18:55:06 fractal: it says 25 and 400GH units must be delivered

18:55:14 Bunnyh: fractal: i don't really have a good opinion on how to decide, if they did deliver 400GH for everyone who ordered 400GH, and the total hardware doesn't consume more power than advertised (but would consist of more than 1 master board with 16 hashing boards)

18:55:15 fractal: AND

18:55:22 ThickAsThieves: just one unreasonable dude?

18:55:28 Anduck: actually it says that they will ship the units

18:55:34 bobbabad_: mircea_popescu: I get you the two of you like to cause drama and stir the pot... but with posts like that you both just looks like assclowns

18:55:37 Anduck: shipping is not delivering

18:55:43 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves it's a problem this, getting language to work for the purpose of communication in a novel space.

18:55:47 fractal: Bunnyh: right -- they're getting more , but the actual hardware itself missed specs -- this is what i based my NO bet on

18:55:56 mircea_popescu: most intellectual spaces have what's called "Terms of art" to come to terms with the problem

18:55:58 mircea_popescu: we don't. yet.

18:56:07 mircea_popescu: but that's the problem bitbet is resolving. slowly and verbosely.

18:56:08 Bunnyh: fractal: if the yes/no decision comes to that issue, it will be a really tough call

18:56:09 mircea_popescu: as it should.

18:56:18 jurov: Anduck, they did not even ship 400gh unit/order/whatever. problem solved

18:56:25 kleeck: Yes. Let's argue over what a "mining unit" really means. :D

18:56:27 Anduck: Bunnyh: the bet was about advertised performance, not about advertised hardware amount

18:56:28 mircea_popescu: bobbabad_ who are you and why do you think it matters how things look to you ?

18:56:52 fractal: Anduck: and it missed performance

18:56:57 fractal: thats why they're shipping more hardware

18:57:16 Anduck: ...to meet the promised performing of the unit

18:57:20 Anduck: the unit that a customer has bought

18:57:33 fractal: and the unit didn't meet performance , so they had to send more

18:57:36 fractal: UNIT

18:57:42 Anduck: they didnt send more units

18:57:51 bobbabad_: haha, nice comeback... It fascinates to try to understand the underlieing motivation of self destruction

18:57:52 fractal: http://thegenesisblock.com/bitfury-400-ghs-bitcoin-mining-rig-hits-us-shores/ this is a UNIT -- any more hardware is just making up for it missing performance hashrate numbers

18:57:53 Anduck: they send the mining unit that people ordered

18:57:54 ozbot: Bitfury 400 GH/s Bitcoin Mining Rig Hits US Shores - The Genesis Block

18:58:29 mircea_popescu: bobbabad_ it's not a comeback. it's an attempt to help you start on the work of self-education. do try and answer the question, it's important.

18:58:50 fractal: Anduck: and that unit is hashing at 380Gh... if they send some more hardware, it doesn't change the fact that the 400Gh unit is only 380Gh.

18:59:13 mircea_popescu: i sort-of wonder if after this people will go have some nice icecream and argue over the cones with the poor hapless waitress.

18:59:19 Anduck: fractal: the unit is hashing at 400 ghash. the unit has more h-boards that was told at the site (when they ordered) but that doesn't change the performance of the ordered unit

18:59:23 mircea_popescu: little will she know that BITCOIN!!! touched her life.

18:59:25 fractal: I think most people, looking at a picture would call 1 thing a UNIT, and 2 things multiple UNITS

18:59:38 mircea_popescu: fractal what about the power brick ?

18:59:40 fractal: Anduck: No, its not. The unit missed performance numbers

18:59:49 fractal: mircea_popescu: its attached

18:59:50 mircea_popescu: is it two units ?

18:59:56 jurov: fractal, one unit is one order

19:00:22 bobbabad_: mircea_popescu: so you seriously believe that "Your entire "asset" (Labcoin) consists of Burnside pasting fake trades to create an illusion of interest"..

19:00:30 mircea_popescu: but seriously, if i buy a laptop, which comes as two item (power supply + laptop) am i buying one or two units ?

19:00:32 fractal: jurov: thats totally wrong. thats like saying a BFL single is a UNIT if they ship 2 to make up for it

19:00:40 bobbabad_: the two of you are clearly trolling, there is now way you can be that stupid

19:00:57 mircea_popescu: bobbabad_ i can ignore you if you absolutely want that.

19:01:01 fractal: mircea_popescu: you're splitting hairs now i think ;)

19:01:12 mircea_popescu: fractal ok, but do answer. is it a unit or two ?

19:01:49 fractal: mircea_popescu: depends what your definition of unit is, i suppose.... i think most people would say its one unit.... but if there were 2 laptops, because the first laptop wasn't fast enough, it would be 2 units

19:01:49 ThickAsThieves: mp Pale Phoenix really doesnt like you (labcoin thread) "Perhaps I should be more tolerant of manic, shrill bullies like PRBot. It must be quite tragic to be so sure that you stand at the center of the universe, only to realize that you're just another decaying bit of yesterday's news."

19:02:09 ThickAsThieves: towers and geniuses

19:02:11 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves not sure why they're that aggitated anyway.

19:02:21 ThickAsThieves: you know exactly why

19:02:22 Rulother: lol

19:02:30 mircea_popescu: well ok, i know exactly why. you caught me :p

19:02:52 fractal: mircea_popescu: So, 1 UNIT would be what was required to operate the original laptop at advertised specs.... if the company sent you a 2nd laptop to make up for the fact that your first laptop wasn't good enough -- you received 2 UNITS

19:03:11 fractal: mircea_popescu: but your first laptop+brick as a UNIT wasn't at specs

19:03:11 mircea_popescu: but you can't really run the laptop w/o power except for two hours

19:03:19 mircea_popescu: you bought a laptop that'd run for months not for hours.

19:03:29 fractal: mircea_popescu: right -- i meants the 2nd laptop comes with a power cord also

19:03:30 Rulother: So there's like two arguements going on at once in here I see

19:03:44 Anduck: Rulother: yes

19:03:45 ThickAsThieves: wanna start another?

19:03:45 mircea_popescu: anyway, niot saying the laptop example controls

19:03:52 fractal: ;)

19:03:59 mircea_popescu: just saying that the definitions of words aren't at all that pinned down as we like to think them

19:04:06 mircea_popescu: which has been perpetually a problem in any attempt at justice.

19:04:11 ThickAsThieves: I respect Miley Cyrus as an artist an female

19:04:23 fractal: mircea_popescu: i agree.... thats why law is a difficult field

19:05:25 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i think it died once fractal said the magical word i agree

19:05:35 mircea_popescu: you're not allowed to agree with anything if you want a good argument to keep going

19:05:56 ThickAsThieves: reason prevails

19:06:00 ThickAsThieves: oh well

19:07:20 Rulother: I think she's a crazy mastermind

19:07:27 Rulother: She has everyone talking about her

19:07:45 Rulother: So she's relevant again

19:08:07 ThickAsThieves: why are people surprised, isnt this the Madonna/Cher/Britney formula?

19:08:24 ThickAsThieves: who started this formula Marylin Monroe maybe?

19:08:33 Rulother: Mozart before that

19:08:34 mircea_popescu: what, skin them, fill the husk with hay and reannimate it with the dark arts of necromancy ?

19:09:10 ThickAsThieves: just add in sexualness, and yes

19:09:22 mircea_popescu: masturbatory sexualness, i think it comes as a food additive.

19:10:32 Rulother: Mozart was a sexual freak

19:10:46 ThickAsThieves: meanwhile Taylor Swift is relieved she is still allowed to have a soul

19:11:03 Rulother: Well she just consumes souls and then writes about it and makes money

19:11:20 Rulother: She's a succubus

19:11:25 ThickAsThieves: possibly

19:11:32 mircea_popescu: Swift moved to Nashville, Tennessee at the age of fourteen to pursue a career in country music.

19:11:35 ThickAsThieves: a siren, more appropriately

19:11:36 mircea_popescu: you know i never heard of her.

19:11:39 mircea_popescu: recommend something ?

19:11:44 ThickAsThieves: dont bother

19:11:47 Rulother: I can't do that

19:11:48 mircea_popescu: a ok

19:11:51 ThickAsThieves: bubblegum stuff

19:12:04 ThickAsThieves: she's still a good kid though

19:12:05 Rulother: Actually, look up "22"

19:12:11 mircea_popescu: i wouldn't want to miss up on the next cher.

19:12:18 mircea_popescu: i wanna scoop her up early

19:12:52 mircea_popescu: hm, did that bobbard character only drop by to bitch about mpoe-pr ?!

19:13:04 Rulother: He's a big labcoin guy

19:13:08 Rulother: fanboi that is

19:13:11 mircea_popescu: at this rate she's going to be more famous than me

19:13:13 ThickAsThieves: i wonder how many forum geniuses lurk here

19:13:35 mircea_popescu: i wonder why people don't just say "dude, i'm a big labcoin fan, because x y z"

19:13:47 mircea_popescu: rather than this underhanded bs. does anyone actually imagine it works ?!

19:13:51 ThickAsThieves: they do

19:14:06 ThickAsThieves: accept x y z all translate to "cuz i bought some"

19:14:14 Rulother: AMAZING COMPANY

19:14:22 mircea_popescu: well that's not so very great a reason is it.

19:14:30 Rulother: I'm going to automatically ignore anyone that says that on the forums

19:14:43 Rulother: so I know who to weed out

19:14:44 mircea_popescu: "please agree X is a great company to spare me the emoptional cost of readjusting with a contrary and grossly dissinterested reality"

19:15:07 ThickAsThieves: theyd rather make money by mistake than on purpose

19:15:10 ThickAsThieves: so much cooler

19:15:12 mircea_popescu: ^

19:15:24 mircea_popescu: dude you've been touched by truth. that's true innit.

19:15:30 mircea_popescu: that's exactly true.

19:16:05 fractal: well, i gotta run... talk to you guys later.

19:16:25 ThickAsThieves: peace

19:19:01 fractal: hey mircea_popescu , what do you think of just-dice.com ? very impressive IMO.

19:19:50 fractal: although the investment ROI has stalled in the past couple weeks... but i think whoehver bought SD madea mistake ;)

19:19:54 mircea_popescu: fractal i was one of the large early investors.

19:20:32 mircea_popescu: there;s anarticle on fraudsters discussing it somewhere, remind me to link you sometime

19:20:55 ThickAsThieves: ;;google fraudstersnjust-dice

19:21:01 ThickAsThieves: ;;google fraudsters just-dice

19:21:32 ThickAsThieves: oh its down still

19:21:39 mircea_popescu: sadly.

19:21:51 fractal: nice... you must have done well... they need a few more whales to play to get the profit up to 1% tho... can't belive 1 guy took them for 4000BTC

19:21:55 pankkake: well, I'm still at a loss from my small investment on JD. bad timing

19:22:08 mircea_popescu: i hadn't realised how fucking integral to btc ecosystem fraudsters is. i'll have to get redundancy for that too now ?!

19:22:28 mircea_popescu: fractal iirc i made ~20 btc betting too

19:22:31 fractal: I made an investment a couple weeks ago,,, profit seems to have stalled there for a bit

19:22:34 mircea_popescu: bujt nothing like the whale.

19:22:42 mircea_popescu: same principle, not same volume

19:23:44 mircea_popescu: http://bitbet.us/bet/521/labcoins-own-130nm-design-sample-chips-will-be/#c1302 << SHOCKING!!!

19:23:51 ozbot: BitBet - Labcoins own 130nm design sample chips will be received by testers by 12TH SEPT 2013

19:23:55 mircea_popescu: someone actually rtemembers what scamlab was claiming a few weeks back

19:24:33 mod6: ok, well maybe i aught to add a random number to this thing now...

19:25:52 fractal: mircea_popescu: have you ever thought about lowering your fee to join mpex? maybe you'll get more volume/make more in fees?

19:26:19 mircea_popescu: the fee was originally 0, for people who wanted to beta. it went up from 20 to 30 when glbse failed.

19:26:31 mircea_popescu: i've said it's only going to go up in the future, and it's a fact.

19:26:32 Rulother: There's a service out there, that will do the trading for you with a small % per transaction. Forgot the name :P

19:26:39 mircea_popescu: Rulother coinbr.com you mean ?

19:26:43 fractal: I bet you could get 100's of people at 1-2BTC,

19:26:44 Rulother: yeah

19:26:55 mircea_popescu: fractal there's brokers doing exactly that.

19:27:03 mircea_popescu: this is deliberate, helping the community professionalize.

19:27:14 ThickAsThieves: https://coinbr.com/ref?c=Q9gPSuUvYS

19:27:19 ozbot: About CoinBr

19:27:21 ThickAsThieves: :)

19:27:22 mircea_popescu: if random chinese asic manufacturers would help rather than hinder we'd be moving a lot faster, but even so, we're moving.

19:27:23 Rulother: hah

19:27:46 fractal: mircea_popescu: if significant competition comes around would you adjust to the market?

19:28:17 mircea_popescu: significant competition would participate in the same market, face the same constraints and take the same measures,

19:28:19 mircea_popescu: ifg they're smart.

19:28:24 ThickAsThieves: i have mpex AND coinbr

19:28:27 ThickAsThieves: big pimpin

19:28:29 fractal: mircea_popescu: why not start a btct.co type site using your backend code? ;) you can own the small-fish market and big-fish

19:28:33 mircea_popescu: they'd certainly fail otherwise. so no, i'd just wait for them to die.

19:28:53 deadweasel: nobody wants to deal with bitcoin small fish.

19:29:04 mircea_popescu: because the goal is to make bitcoin work, not to try and finesse a few coins out of the masses.

19:29:17 fractal: very noble ;)

19:29:18 ThickAsThieves: that's my job

19:29:27 jurov: deadweasel, actually everybody except mircea does

19:29:42 mircea_popescu: fractal i have a history, by now it's long in btc terms.

19:29:57 deadweasel: but do you want to deal with them? or someone with their head screwed on?

19:30:18 fractal: mircea_popescu: i've always thought that becoming my own competition is the best way to provide the most efficient service to a market...

19:30:26 jurov: deadweasel lol how long are you around?

19:30:32 deadweasel: not long enough.

19:30:34 fractal: i..e launching multiple sites with diff fees/features and seeing what works

19:30:34 mircea_popescu: maybe.

19:30:46 matuszed: Maker taker!

19:30:50 matuszed: someone do it with maker taker

19:30:58 fractal: but i suppose 'if its not broken, dont fix it' can be a valid argument sometimes as well

19:31:17 mircea_popescu: the thing is i know what doesn't work, i don't need to experiment to discover what's wrong with boiler rooms, wash trading, pump and dumps or all the rest of the "internet investment" stuff.

19:31:18 ThickAsThieves: matuszed, you could probly convince Havelock

19:31:28 matuszed: You serious

19:31:48 ThickAsThieves: even Burnside has considerd it

19:32:03 thestringpuller: you can build a lot with mpex as is

19:32:16 thestringpuller: the optiins and diff market are very open

19:32:21 mircea_popescu: well actually mpex has always had it eh ?

19:32:32 mircea_popescu: 0% fees to sell stuff.

19:32:41 mircea_popescu: 0.2% to buy stuff

19:32:50 Anduck: http://pastebin.com/p9gjgiKu

19:32:52 ozbot: Bitfury EU August orders will ship before 1st September 2013 This is met. B - Pastebin.com

19:33:01 Anduck: please let me know is there something wrong there

19:33:17 mircea_popescu: Anduck why not start a blog at thius point ?

19:33:30 Anduck: mircea_popescu: i just want the bet to be resolved correctly :)

19:33:56 mircea_popescu: ppl will want to comment on the pastebin lol

19:34:21 mircea_popescu: but since you're here, link the pix to the other two ?

19:34:33 Anduck: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.620

19:34:37 Anduck: this thread, 2 or 3 last pages

19:34:43 Anduck: dyaheon and foofighter

19:35:08 Anduck: mircea_popescu: there's nothing to comment in that pastebin. it's all just facts and how the bet is

19:35:26 Anduck: but if someone wants to comment it, comment here..?

19:35:48 jurov: anduck put it as comment to bitbet and you'll see

19:35:58 Anduck: ok

19:36:23 Anduck: i put the link there.. no need to spam it more :O

19:39:00 mircea_popescu: well it's relevant.

19:41:06 jurov: ;;bc,stats

20:01:28 ThickAsThieves: "I'm extremely happy that Friedcat returned that transaction fee mistake. Integrity is worth a lot more than 200 coins (no matter what BTC ends up being worth)."

20:01:28 ThickAsThieves: (regarding a block that has an insanely high tx fee in it)

20:01:28 ThickAsThieves: what am i missing here?

20:01:34 ThickAsThieves: how is this a sign of integrity

20:01:42 ThickAsThieves: sure it's nice n all

20:01:43 kleeck: FC returned the tx fee, instead of keeping it.

20:01:58 ThickAsThieves: but if he hadnt returned it he'd be a bad guy?

20:02:11 zoinky: yes.

20:02:17 zoinky: sure!

20:02:24 zoinky: im mad as share holder

20:02:31 zoinky: !

20:02:45 ThickAsThieves: what if he just didnt even notice?

20:02:46 zoinky: thats mining revenue wasted

20:02:54 ThickAsThieves: is he now a neglectful bad guy?

20:02:55 jurov: ThickAsThieves: karma is a bitch

20:03:26 ThickAsThieves: maybe the guy losing the 200btc had the bad karma

20:03:27 kakobrekla: is bad for his chi

20:03:41 ThickAsThieves: and no FC has it

20:03:43 ThickAsThieves: now*

20:04:18 fractal: ThickAsThieves: the ownder has over 10,000 BTC -- likely a criminal/money launderer -- friedcat sohuld have kept it, he has a responsibility to shareholders

20:04:32 ThickAsThieves: whoa waity a sec

20:04:39 pankkake: wat

20:04:43 gecko_x2: over NINE THOUSAND?!

20:04:50 fractal: if it was a guy with 201 BTC who lost 200BTC , id say return it right away.... how bad can you feel about someone with 10,000+ BTC laundering coins losing 200?

20:04:53 ThickAsThieves: if you have 10000btc you are presumed a criminal now?

20:05:01 fractal: ThickAsThieves: no.

20:05:22 mircea_popescu: lol what, rich people are bad mkay ?

20:05:43 jurov: http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr05/2013/8/28/14/anigif_original-grid-image-17411-1377714301-29.gif

20:05:51 jurov: (unrelated)

20:05:55 ThickAsThieves: lol

20:06:00 ThickAsThieves: irllol

20:06:31 kleeck: <kakobrekla> is bad for his chi <<<<<<< YESSSSSSSS! REPOSTED FOR POSTERITY: YIFU - http://imgur.com/Tr8HVI6

20:07:00 gecko_x2: lol

20:07:16 fractal: the 200BTC was returned to this address --> https://blockchain.info/address/12HUyZeNFqk4db2EM7GY5e6homTVTpPd7Z

20:07:44 mircea_popescu: ;;ticker

20:08:09 fractal: It's likely , but not certain, that people who stole large amounts of bitcoins will try to launder them before cashing out on MTGOX.

20:08:13 ThickAsThieves: re labcoiners hating mp "I agree 100%. Right after his little post I thought "wow, didn't he show this same distaste towards asicminer at one point?" This was the biggest signal for me, and I bought up a shitload.. "

20:08:34 fractal: I've been short AM since 0.4

20:09:02 fractal: on paper.. ;)

20:09:08 ThickAsThieves: oh wait, one more dig

20:09:10 fractal: i'll buy under .1 , maybe

20:09:10 ThickAsThieves: "and just for the record, I think he's really good at running an exchange that has no securities."

20:09:31 ThickAsThieves: i think it will hit 0 before .1

20:09:55 fractal: How many entities do you guys think own over 10,000 BTC? 100, 200, 500?

20:10:08 mircea_popescu: someone should send the labcoiners a digest list of glbse muppets hating mp back in like... august 2012.

20:10:29 ThickAsThieves: 200+

20:10:39 mircea_popescu: 1-200.

20:10:51 mircea_popescu: there's not that much space, plenty of people own more than 10k

20:11:01 mircea_popescu: bitcoin is quite top heavy

20:11:08 fractal: you think 200 max?

20:11:28 mircea_popescu: well it's hard to say.

20:11:39 fractal: What about 1000 BTC? 5000?

20:11:43 ThickAsThieves: there is some analysis out there on this topic

20:11:51 ThickAsThieves: ive stumbled over it at times

20:12:00 fractal: ThickAsThieves: its hard to do, unless addresses are linked

20:12:14 fractal: MTGOX has a great idea though ;)

20:12:25 ThickAsThieves: heh

20:12:38 Scrat: 10k+ is ter(r)anode?

20:12:47 fractal: I'm just thinking that, if someone wanted to be top 5000 richest BTC in the world, how many would he need to buy right now?

20:13:11 ThickAsThieves: not much

20:13:17 fractal: 500? 1000?

20:13:31 fractal: take a guess

20:13:49 mod6: https://twitter.com/modsix/status/373176507159433216

20:13:51 ThickAsThieves: 500

20:13:52 ozbot: Twitter / modsix: @BitOTTer [BitOTTerBot] is ...

20:14:30 ThickAsThieves: neato

20:14:47 jurov: mod6 , #mpex is something else

20:14:52 fractal: cool.. I think 2,100 is a good goal for someone with a lot of money, and very bullish on bitcoin -- mathmatically no more then 10,000 people can own as much as you, and in reality it will likely be 1000 or less in the future

20:15:01 ThickAsThieves: top 5000 isnt exact;y a monument

20:15:13 ThickAsThieves: how many bitcoiners are there with any btc?

20:15:18 fractal: ThickAsThieves: worldwide? you're 0.000001% rich in 2050

20:15:19 ThickAsThieves: maybe 200k?

20:15:27 mod6: jurov: lol.

20:15:38 fractal: ThickAsThieves: i'm extrapolating for world-wide BTC usage in the future

20:15:43 mod6: i care not.

20:16:02 ThickAsThieves: fractal, that's too unclear to attempt imo

20:16:16 ThickAsThieves: bitcoin will have competition

20:16:45 fractal: ThickAsThieves: competition that will replace it?

20:16:57 ThickAsThieves: obv no one can answer that

20:17:10 mircea_popescu: fractal prolly 1k gets you in the top 5k

20:17:15 ThickAsThieves: on a long enough timeframe yes

20:17:49 mircea_popescu: prolly 1k gets you in the top 1k for that matter.

20:17:57 ThickAsThieves: yeah

20:17:59 ThickAsThieves: probably

20:18:58 ThickAsThieves: i wanna know how many people have bitcoins

20:19:13 zoinky: well coinbase claims to have 238,000 users

20:19:17 zoinky: who knows how many have coins

20:19:27 matuszed: Im like 5000 users on there alone

20:19:32 zoinky: theres been millions of downloads of the client

20:19:33 ThickAsThieves: haha

20:19:53 zoinky: so id say.. maybe 15k?

20:20:10 mircea_popescu: lol matuszed

20:20:14 fractal: well. around 2-3 million coins have never been moved right? 1 Million is satoshi and 1-2Milion lost -- lets say theres 8M coins in real peoples hands -- 5000 people holding 1000BTC would take up 5M BTC and mean only 3M is left as float

20:20:32 ThickAsThieves: rreally 1-2mil lost?

20:20:32 fractal: i think less then 5000 people have 1000BTC

20:20:35 ThickAsThieves: nice

20:20:41 mircea_popescu: fractal large holders are part of the float as much as small holders.

20:21:07 fractal: ThickAsThieves: thats what i've gathered from reading forums -- one guy talked about mining 50K coins and then formatting his HD

20:21:21 mircea_popescu: basically there's a 1-200 people that matter, holding like 90% of all coins. there's ~10k people with modest holdings, doing another 9%

20:21:24 fractal: it was fake money in 2009

20:21:29 ThickAsThieves: yeah but then there are some people with 10000_ and 100,000+

20:21:32 mircea_popescu: then there's ~100k people who have some dust, post on forums, what have you

20:21:37 zoinky: it was just as real in 2009

20:22:22 ThickAsThieves: this conversation just makes me wanna hoard harder

20:23:03 mircea_popescu: i would guess group 1 median is somewhere in the 50k range. group 2 median probably about 80-150 btc

20:23:11 mircea_popescu: group 3 median like 0.05 to 0.1

20:25:41 ThickAsThieves: biggest design flaw in bitcoin: the decimal

20:25:42 ThickAsThieves: :)

20:25:48 KRS-1: heh

20:26:28 fractal: So, if 1 million people use BTC in 2015, what amount do you think would put you in top 10,000 ?

20:27:08 matuszed: Thats the most impossible question in the world to answer

20:27:11 fractal: the price will likely be $1000 by then, and lots of large holders would probably sell

20:27:17 jurov: fractal, just buy 100k S.MPOE now

20:27:37 ThickAsThieves: but theyd need to sell less if price was that high

20:27:51 mircea_popescu: fractal i doubt large holders will ever sell.

20:28:03 mircea_popescu: they jhave no incentive to, as they already have more fiat than they know what to do with

20:28:10 mircea_popescu: which is how they ended up with btc in the first place.

20:28:15 fractal: not that hard -- we can use Gold as model for BTC -- kings and tyrants were the largest gold holders, and slowly holdings moved

20:28:29 mircea_popescu: you can steal gold. you can't hardly steal btc.

20:28:43 fractal: mircea_popescu: right... so rich fiat btc users will hold , and poor btc users who mined will sell

20:28:47 ThickAsThieves: tell that to labcoin

20:28:55 mircea_popescu: fractal pretty much.

20:29:03 mircea_popescu: we're her to take over the world and reshape it drastically

20:29:25 mircea_popescu: not make a few million. fuckall cares. the idea is that the us president will take office upon swearing an oath to the conclave of bitcoin.

20:29:44 fractal: mircea_popescu: hahaha amazing response.

20:29:50 fractal: bravo.

20:29:50 mircea_popescu: which as a side point makes all the sec posturing rather lol.

20:30:06 mircea_popescu: as in "sec who and quo warranto ?"

20:30:31 ThickAsThieves: whats the command to see the avg price up and down the gox orderbook?

20:30:36 fractal: I really think world governments have no clue what is going to hit them in 2-3 years

20:31:05 fractal: it will be interesting to see MPEX replace carlos slim on forbes top 100 though ;)

20:31:08 ThickAsThieves: i tried telling my wife this stuff last night

20:31:21 ThickAsThieves: she now sees me as a little crazier than before

20:31:51 mircea_popescu: ya well. but it's what it is.

20:31:54 fractal: ThickAsThieves: which makes it even better when you end up being right... your brilliance will shine throughout the ages

20:32:01 mircea_popescu: "o, we have a mandate fgrom the voters" "well, d othose voters hold any birtcoin ?"

20:32:06 ThickAsThieves: it's very difficult for people to digest that bitcoin will disrupt

20:32:08 mircea_popescu: "no" "then stfu and get back in line"

20:32:19 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves s/that/what

20:32:43 mircea_popescu: fractal it'd never be forbes top 100.

20:33:23 jurov: ...and bitcoin-assets logs will be studied carefully by historicians.

20:33:27 jurov: ^ i have a bit of an issue with this :)

20:33:51 ThickAsThieves: heh

20:33:54 zoinky: pump it up

20:34:00 fractal: ThickAsThieves: although, I see when governments realize what crypto-currency implications are -- they will issue state-sanctioned alt-chains.... this the the only thread to BTC

20:34:14 ThickAsThieves: thats ok

20:34:15 mircea_popescu: fractal would you buy it ?

20:34:27 Scrat: the sheeple might buy it

20:34:31 ThickAsThieves: they could never hold to it being deflationary

20:34:34 fractal: USACoin would be adopted quickly with government backing, and likely grow to a larger marketcap then BTC

20:34:39 ThickAsThieves: even if they said they will

20:34:44 fractal: mircea_popescu: yes, due to sheep using it

20:34:46 Scrat: fractal: dude it's "than"

20:34:48 zoinky: even if they did, i bet the exchange rate to BTC would be the same as USD

20:35:02 mircea_popescu: zoinky pretty much.

20:35:32 mircea_popescu: actually state sanctioned chains would make bitcoin worth more than the sum of all the chains just on that strength alone

20:35:41 ThickAsThieves: if they want to commit to even attempting an Americoin, theyd need to back it

20:35:44 mircea_popescu: put 10 units of faith in your state chain and by that fact 14 into bitcoin

20:35:48 ThickAsThieves: and not print more of it

20:35:53 fractal: its more of a 'USCoin is legal tender, and you can pay taxes in USCoin' that means people will have to sell BTC to buy USCoin to pay taxes -- UScoin will be more valuable

20:36:04 ThickAsThieves: which would be progress

20:38:56 ThickAsThieves: but theyd never hold to it

20:38:56 ThickAsThieves: just like the gold stanadrd

20:38:56 mircea_popescu: fractal not really. people would keep their savings in btc and buy chinacoin/uscoin/swisscoin as needed

20:38:56 mircea_popescu: the only way the state thing could seriously disrupt was if there were only one state.

20:38:56 mircea_popescu: which there isn't, and so bitcoin is soon enough on this score.

20:38:56 fractal: mircea_popescu: maybe... it will be interesting to see how it plays out in a few years. i predict the US minting virtual currency is a certainty at some point

20:38:56 ThickAsThieves: more likely to have Amazon or Google coin as a threat than the usacoin

20:38:56 mircea_popescu: but yes, in a historical perspective this is correct, had it been a few decades late it'd have bnever vbeen possible as such

20:38:56 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves usacoin wouldbe implemented as a googlecoin

20:38:56 mircea_popescu: it is a fascist state after all. uses statal corporations.

20:38:56 fractal: haha... you've been reading the zerohedge article on assange and schmidt meeting?

20:38:56 fractal: ;)

20:38:56 ThickAsThieves: nope

20:38:56 ThickAsThieves: not familiar

20:38:56 mircea_popescu: nope

20:39:13 ThickAsThieves: ;market buy 50000

20:39:16 fractal: Basically the NSA government uses large corp's to help them gather information -- nothing that is surprising or out of the ordinary. i dont know why people are shocked at the news. all states , communist, fascist, or otherwise do this

20:39:18 ThickAsThieves: ;;market buy 50000

20:39:39 fractal: the corporations and the state share the same intrests -- its obvious they would help eachother

20:39:52 mircea_popescu: fractal this particular state-corporation ammalgamation is what historical fascism is known for economically.

20:40:25 mircea_popescu: the mechanisms and physiology is quite different from the capitalist state

20:40:44 ThickAsThieves: so if bitcoin is this powerful

20:40:48 ThickAsThieves: why is the price so low?

20:40:52 fractal: mircea_popescu: yes, but the actual impact of it is mostly overblown in americas case.... its mostly a laissez fair keynesian capitalist state

20:40:57 ThickAsThieves: gotta be more nerds with money

20:41:01 mircea_popescu: i disagree.

20:41:02 ThickAsThieves: willing to throw millions at it\

20:41:14 fractal: ThickAsThieves: we're smarter then everyone else. im actually serious.

20:41:20 ThickAsThieves: than!

20:41:26 zoinky: people still laugh if i mention bitcoin

20:41:30 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves because while it could end up realising that power, odds are it won't. judging by the average iq and ability of people involved...

20:41:33 fractal: ThickAsThieves: no idea why tech billionaires haven't bought up 100K+ BTC

20:41:40 mircea_popescu: (where involved = self reportedly involved)

20:41:56 zoinky: because they are billionaires

20:42:14 mircea_popescu: fractal large holders are usally risk averse.

20:42:37 fractal: hahahah you gotta love mircea_popescu's confidence ;) i actaully love seeing MPOE-PR posts on the forums and the rage replies.... although it will only work as long as he's right about everything ;)

20:42:46 fractal: better not be wrong!

20:42:54 mircea_popescu: it's happened that i was wrong im pretty sure.

20:43:06 fractal: and did it humble you at all? ;)

20:43:18 mircea_popescu: what, i'm very humble.

20:43:58 fractal: you were wrong?? when?

20:44:15 ThickAsThieves: i recall the girl not realizing how many coins AM had actually paid out to shareholders

20:44:19 jborkl: wtf is going on with the Avalon chips, they finally admitted there are none coming?

20:44:31 fractal: jborkl: they're coming, but delayed....

20:44:52 fractal: jborkl: then shipped to chineese resellers first, according to rumours , before international orders... thats why people are mad

20:45:04 mircea_popescu: heh. ethical :D

20:45:06 jborkl: you sure, I have seen stuff today that is leading to think they are never coming

20:45:17 jborkl: not that i did before heh

20:45:18 mircea_popescu: jborkl link ?

20:45:27 fractal: of course, delayed is just as bad as not shipping at all since if difficulty is too high, the chips are useless ..... but thats another argument

20:45:30 jborkl: one sec lemme find it

20:45:36 ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash

20:45:42 ThickAsThieves: yum

20:45:43 Scrat: ;;echo .d

20:45:44 ozbot: 65750060.14908 | Next Diff in 1114 blocks | Estimated Change: 18.5786% in 6d 7h 3m 0s

20:45:49 ThickAsThieves: ;;estimate

20:46:23 mircea_popescu: 20% in 6 days ?! didn't it JUST switch ?

20:46:28 mircea_popescu: like, yesterday ?

20:46:29 fractal: Am I the only person who thinks that the network will be stronger if the PoW was changed to a algo that couldn't be performed in custom hardware? (i..e gpu's only)

20:46:40 jborkl: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177827.1260

20:46:46 mircea_popescu: you're not the only person, but you're wrong along with the rest of em

20:46:46 fractal: All I see is mining centralization which will end when Intel builds 14nm chips in 2015

20:46:47 ozbot: [CLOSED] Avalon ASIC chip distribution

20:46:54 jborkl: that is just one of the pages, lemme find more

20:46:54 Scrat: fractal: you're implying that algo's cannot be done in custom hardware

20:47:05 Scrat: any algos*

20:47:31 jborkl: you cant make a algo that could only be done in gpus

20:47:42 mircea_popescu: midnightmagic seriously, how's the ethicalness going these days ?

20:47:45 fractal: Thats correct -- my assumption is that the best PoW would be one that performs best in common computer hardware -- using all aspects -- RAM, Memory, and computing power

20:47:55 fractal: it would ensure a decentalized network

20:48:00 jborkl: that is scrypt and it sucks

20:48:05 mircea_popescu: fractal there's such a thing as a turing machine

20:48:15 mircea_popescu: you're trying to solve a problem by dancing around it

20:48:30 kakobrekla: rahter dance inside it

20:48:58 mircea_popescu: lol

20:49:04 fractal: mircea_popescu: I understand that custom hardware could be build for any algo, but my goal would to make it not cost-effective until the coin had a market cap of say $100B

20:49:33 mircea_popescu: what makes you think i'm not humble when you display the unmitigated audacity to pick numbers ?

20:49:35 mircea_popescu: why 100b ?

20:49:48 ThickAsThieves: it doesnt work like that anyway

20:50:11 mircea_popescu: indeed.

20:50:46 fractal: A PoW that required lots of disk-access, RAM, and processing power, would sort of make custom hardware useless to build --- assuming that such a PoW algo could be made

20:51:13 jborkl: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=179769.2600

20:51:18 ozbot: [Work in progess] Burnins Avalon Chip to mining board service

20:51:29 jborkl: burnin, that actually made a nice board with Avalon sample chips

20:51:34 ThickAsThieves: so you want uselessness to be a factor?

20:51:35 mircea_popescu: because why ?

20:51:40 jborkl: gone to complete shit also

20:51:53 mircea_popescu: sucks.

20:52:10 fractal: gmaxwell said that a tough PoW algo that used all aspects of a general-purpose computer could still probably be sped up by up around 20% on custom hardware --- but that isn't much of a margin to make it worth it until the market cap and mining reward are very high

20:52:15 jborkl: Activemining - also seen information that they are not getting the 20,000 chips

20:52:24 mircea_popescu: that's one sad turn of events tbh, they certainly impressed back in the fpga days when they figured out what old chips bfl sanded off to pass as their ip

20:52:52 fractal: mircea_popescu: also, Dan Kamisky thinks the SHA algo will be replaced due to centralized mining --- he seems to be a pretty smart guy ;)

20:53:29 kakobrekla: but big miners will not want to change it

20:53:35 kakobrekla: so how is that gonna happen

20:53:55 jborkl: why would we want to go to scrypt?, screw that

20:54:05 mircea_popescu: fractal there's two layers. on one layer, all this is roughly aggitation from a bunch of dishonest people trying to serve the interests of their political masters.

20:54:09 jborkl: burns up gpu's like butter

20:54:17 mircea_popescu: what with gavin going on about introducing a server that can turn off transactions etc.

20:54:42 mircea_popescu: on the other layer, there's no particular advantage to any one structure of transistors.

20:54:44 fractal: kakobrekla: big miners will lose the vote to small miners who would likely start using a new PoW if it meant they could mine on their own rigs again from parts they buy at the store

20:54:47 mircea_popescu: they're all man made, they'll all be man made.

20:54:56 ThickAsThieves: "With ASICMINER today announcing blades for as low as 3.5BTC, it appeared that Avalon chips that do not mine today are not going to break even any more. While those blades went already out of stock after some hours, the new price for mining rig is officially set. Essentially this means that if Avalon does not ship the remaining chips fully within the next two weeks, they become worth

20:54:56 ThickAsThieves: less than their shipping costs."

20:55:03 ThickAsThieves: shitty

20:55:04 mircea_popescu: we have absolutely no problem producing parts as it is now.

20:55:17 kakobrekla: fractal imo you maffs are off

20:55:18 jborkl: wait, you know there is LTC right?

20:55:34 jborkl: and frecoin, bigcoin, smallcoin ....

20:55:41 kakobrekla: and vagcoin

20:55:46 jborkl: oh yeah

20:55:53 jborkl: wasnt there a buttsexcoin?

20:55:56 mircea_popescu: basically diff explodes at an exponential rate and somehow people are concern-trolling about how there's not enough parts out or some shit.

20:56:23 fractal: kako, a PoW that was most efficient on standard computer hardware would be the best to use, IMO, it would make centralized mining more difficult.

20:56:37 jborkl: no, that was called a botnet

20:56:37 ThickAsThieves: would it?

20:56:42 fractal: I dont know if its possible for such a PoW to exist -- but i think it can be close

20:56:56 jborkl: we just got rid of that shit

20:57:07 fractal: jborkl: good point on the botnet -- not sure if thats worse then centralized ASIC mining though.

20:57:20 mircea_popescu: fractal what centralized ?

20:57:22 fractal: id rather have the botnets

20:57:26 mircea_popescu: lol.

20:57:34 mircea_popescu: i guess that's why you don't get a vote then

20:57:40 jborkl: not centralize, gigas private pool is like 50th

20:57:58 jborkl: it is just private peoople

20:58:04 fractal: mircea_popescu: some devs expressed the same sentiment as me regarding botnets

20:58:17 mircea_popescu: jborkl yeah, all the shit he stole from people, and all the shit his friends stole from people.

20:58:25 mircea_popescu: amazingrando, hashking, the lot.

20:58:29 jborkl: I am not advocating giga, btw

20:58:41 mircea_popescu: fractal you do realise the devs don't get a vote, either, do you ?

20:58:57 fractal: what vote?

20:59:12 mircea_popescu: as to whether we break bitcoin to make teh gobernmint happy or no.

20:59:14 jborkl: hash vote?

20:59:39 jborkl: if you have 100 gh, you get to vote as a miner with 100 gh

20:59:41 ThickAsThieves: devs vote to install voting system

20:59:55 ThickAsThieves: can we do if you have 1000btc instead?

21:00:06 jborkl: do you pool mine, solo mine, rent out your hash to gpumax

21:00:14 mircea_popescu: as it stands right now, any attack on the bitcoin network requires the attacker spend some dough on making chips.

21:00:18 jborkl: last one was so fucking stupid

21:00:19 mircea_popescu: this is a fixed cost of money and time.

21:00:32 fractal: mircea_popescu: if you follow the inevitable logic -- the entity with access to the smallest manufacturing process will control a PoW such as SHA256. There is 1 entity who always has the smallest fab process -- Intel.. they can do 14nm and put the rest out of business. They won't until the US Government asks them to, or until mining is worth $5B / year or so to make it worth it

21:00:40 mircea_popescu: if we fall for this poisonous nonsense, about six different governments can attack the network just out of spare parts they got laying about.

21:00:50 fractal: so basically, Intel controls bitcoin

21:00:58 mircea_popescu: this is out of the querstion, pretty much.

21:01:03 jborkl: no, we have been through this a year ago

21:01:07 mircea_popescu: we already have in private hands the technoklogy to make miners.

21:01:09 ThickAsThieves: looks like Samsung, not Intel

21:01:15 mircea_popescu: we DO NOT have the technoplogy to make "Average computers"

21:01:55 ThickAsThieves: plus you are forgetting all about my quantum miner

21:01:56 fractal: Intel is the ONLY fab in the world going to do 14nm chips -- that practically puts all other ASIC out of business

21:01:58 mircea_popescu: a move away from sha would be a move away from free market and independece.

21:02:03 mircea_popescu: fractal does not.

21:02:30 ThickAsThieves: how does intel make money taking over bitcoin?

21:02:53 jborkl: they would just fuck up and deliver in 5 years or so

21:02:58 mircea_popescu: right-o.

21:03:01 gecko_x2: http://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate

21:03:03 ozbot: Bitcoin Hash Rate

21:03:13 fractal: mircea_popescu: you're right... i just looked it up and samsung is making 14nm as well...

21:03:14 gecko_x2: something is gonna have to change soon.

21:03:32 mircea_popescu: fractal more important : there are dozens of people who can make their own miners as it is now.

21:03:36 mircea_popescu: this has been proven.

21:03:38 ThickAsThieves: then we'll have nanocarbon and biochips etc

21:03:45 fractal: mircea_popescu: ok, basically, i suppose state actors have the most resources, and can centralize mining if they wished ...

21:03:50 mircea_popescu: the only way to make miners on your system is to buy parts made by corps.

21:04:01 mircea_popescu: this is a huge difference,

21:04:17 ThickAsThieves: Avalon update https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177827.msg3038356#msg3038356

21:04:18 fractal: mircea_popescu: they still have to buy chips made by corps now?

21:04:23 mircea_popescu: fractal nope.

21:04:23 fractal: bfl/avalon/etc

21:04:30 mircea_popescu: you can just make your own.

21:04:31 fractal: mircea_popescu: I can fab my own chips at home?

21:04:35 mircea_popescu: not at home.

21:04:39 jborkl: fractal: you are advocationg cpu mining with a sata and ram? I just want to clarify

21:04:42 mircea_popescu: but you CAN fab your own chip.

21:04:51 mircea_popescu: you CAN'T fab your own hdd+ ram+etc for a "normal computer"

21:05:07 fractal: mircea_popescu: you need more resources to do that. only a handful of entities can afford it

21:05:09 mircea_popescu: the entire thing is a ploy to try and take some control back from the people.

21:05:09 jborkl: my spelling sucks btw, last time I will say that

21:05:39 mircea_popescu: let's consider a similar case. if the 3d printer people could print guns

21:05:53 mircea_popescu: this would be equivalent to saying "let's change death so that people no longer can get killed by projectiles"

21:06:03 mircea_popescu: dude... it's clearly your attempt to anull 3d printing.

21:06:21 fractal: jborkl: no, just saying it would be better if no single entity could have an easy time manufacuring chips that could attack the network..... i.e. its easy for Intel to make 1Th/sec chips and own 50% right away.... but its hard for a signle entitity to buy and setup 250,000 computers mining in a warehouse to own 50% right away

21:06:34 dub: I thing killing everyone so they cant die fits better

21:06:43 fractal: the space / resource requirements of full computer mining make it harder to own the network

21:06:43 mircea_popescu: dub lol or that.

21:06:57 mircea_popescu: fractal do the math. what'd it take intel to 50% the network right now ?

21:07:11 ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash

21:07:14 jborkl: 600th

21:07:19 fractal: mircea_popescu: $5 mil. tops.

21:07:20 dub: are we forgetting the reason nobody wants to get 50% of the network?

21:07:22 jborkl: ok 614th

21:07:29 mircea_popescu: they need a 620 TH run delivered this second, or else a 1.2Ph run delivered in a coupla months.

21:07:33 ThickAsThieves: no i mentioned it earlier dub

21:07:38 mircea_popescu: i tjhink you need to do the math harder.

21:07:44 mircea_popescu: $5mn is not even proof of concept, at intel.

21:07:51 mircea_popescu: dub yes.

21:08:22 jborkl: They would probably spend 50m to get the masks and designs ready

21:08:22 dub: good

21:08:37 fractal: mircea_popescu: their chips would be 10TH/sec each on 14nm. they'd need 70 chips.

21:08:38 mircea_popescu: yes, the budget for all this is easily half a bn.

21:08:41 jborkl: not including lost time on other projects

21:08:50 mircea_popescu: fractal you don't know so much about chips, do you ?

21:08:55 mircea_popescu: what 10th/s.

21:08:56 dub: ok yall getting trolled

21:09:15 mircea_popescu: 14nm is MAYBE 3x as efficient per gram of silicon as 28nm.

21:09:26 mircea_popescu: maybe. if you get lucky with your resonances.

21:09:52 fractal: Cointerra is doing 500Gh/chip. 14nm would be around 4 times more efficient, so 2TH, but they have smarter engineers who could fit the logic better on the silicon and unroll more cores.

21:10:01 mircea_popescu: fractal dude get serious.

21:10:03 fractal: even with 2TH chips. thats only 350 Chips.

21:10:13 mircea_popescu: 2th chips ?

21:10:16 mircea_popescu: we'

21:10:22 mircea_popescu: re currently at 1watt/gh.

21:10:22 jborkl: wtf are 2 th chips?

21:10:34 Scrat: babby's first troll

21:10:39 mircea_popescu: your 2th chips eat what, 500 watts per chip ? wehat is this, 1955 ?

21:10:57 fractal: mircea_popescu: Cointerra is claming 500Gh chips.

21:11:09 ThickAsThieves: fractial, why isn't someone 51%ing the chain right now?

21:11:12 mircea_popescu: ok, im claiming i have a miniaturized woman that's 2 inches tall and shits little diamonds.

21:11:26 fractal: they're on 28nm. i think intel could do better... 2TH at 14nm.

21:11:27 jborkl: ok, i'm in now

21:11:28 ThickAsThieves: Cinderella?

21:12:05 fractal: mircea_popescu: I dunno, their CEO was a samgsumg lead designer -- he sounds credible

21:12:16 ThickAsThieves: why isn't someone 51%ing the chain right now?

21:12:17 jborkl: so, they will spend 1 billion by the time they get done fucking around

21:12:29 jborkl: and destroy the network and get 0 back

21:13:55 fractal: no, they won't spend anything -- its not like they're going to pay themselves for the chip mask

21:13:55 fractal: jborkl: they wouldn't destroy the network,

21:13:55 jborkl: nevermind you do not understand

21:13:55 ThickAsThieves: haha

21:13:55 fractal: understand what? I just said Intel could own 50% hashrate fairly easily

21:13:55 fractal: can't belive what sort of shitstorm i caused ;)

21:13:55 dub: lol

21:13:55 mircea_popescu: ya, but you're wrong.

21:13:55 ThickAsThieves: cuz chip masks dont cost anything, they just charge for em to be mean

21:14:12 fractal: ThickAsThieves: making a bitcoin chip would be a drop in Intel's R&D bucket

21:14:21 ThickAsThieves: why isn't someone 51%ing the chain right now?

21:14:32 ThickAsThieves: sry i'm breaking channel rules

21:14:36 jborkl: ok, I am out of here- my head is going to explode

21:14:51 mircea_popescu: kinda lulzy shit.

21:15:02 jborkl: and I am going to go pick up a free chip mask at AMD on the way home

21:15:10 mircea_popescu: incredible how complex bitcoin really is. no wonder so many people try to prey on the innocent.

21:15:27 fractal: mircea_popescu: they'd only have to make a couple hundred chips at 14nm

21:15:43 ThickAsThieves: aww you arent even gonna try to answer?

21:15:49 pankkake: the only way Intel would try to 51% attack the bitcoin network is by being forced to do it. it means a lot of lost money on other projects for no gain

21:16:05 fractal: they wouldn't attack it, they'll mine and make profit

21:16:07 pankkake: process size isn't everything anyway

21:16:15 mircea_popescu: fractal no dude. they would need, if they are starting right now, about half a billion in costs.

21:16:24 mircea_popescu: there's no way they can justify half a bn of expenditure.

21:16:25 pankkake: intel would likely beat other chips by doing it properly, not by doing it smaller

21:16:26 mircea_popescu: that's that.

21:16:39 ThickAsThieves: <fractal> they wouldn't attack it, they'll mine and make profit <<<< you realize this dismantles your points right?

21:17:01 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves he seems in gmaxwell nonthink mode.

21:17:08 mircea_popescu: trapped in*

21:17:17 jurov: sha256 is power dense, it just isn't possible to throw 4x more transistors into the same space

21:17:25 fractal: mircea_popescu: really? thats way more then I thought... Cointerra and others are rumoured to be spending $5M on masks for their 28nm chips.... I never thought it would be such a big jump from $5M to $500M for 14nm... crazy...!!!!

21:17:32 fractal: who knew?

21:17:33 mircea_popescu: i've rarely met people capable of making others stupid just through contact, like gmaxwell is. some talent.

21:17:34 jurov: GPUs are already hitting the power wall

21:18:01 ThickAsThieves: <fractal> they wouldn't attack it, they'll mine and make profit <<<< this is bitcoin working as intended

21:18:14 ThickAsThieves: here's another point

21:18:14 fractal: ThickAsThieves: of course!

21:18:15 mircea_popescu: fractal you're confusing a) shoestring operations with intel and b) cointerra wityh someone that matters.

21:18:46 mircea_popescu: what costs 100k to make on b row costs 10mn to make in hollywood. simply how these things work.

21:18:48 ThickAsThieves: if they do all this, and mine 49%, what about tha halving

21:18:55 ThickAsThieves: and halving after that

21:19:01 ThickAsThieves: where's furuknap

21:19:07 fractal: mircea_popescu: I thinking is that that Intel is full of smart people, and they'd be able to build it for much less then $500mm.... I could be wrong, of course.

21:19:40 mircea_popescu: corporations spend in a certain way

21:19:49 mircea_popescu: this is why start-ups compete with them, and successfully.

21:20:03 mircea_popescu: this is why our miners are asicminer and bitfury not intel and samsung.

21:20:36 jurov: http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/intelligent-systems/intel-technology/sha-256-implementations-paper.html

21:20:48 jurov: ^last year, they were here

21:21:05 fractal: why do corporations spend like that? wouldn't it be better if they became their own competition, instead of spending more to acquire competition when it pops up?

21:21:24 mircea_popescu: fractal not really. they're one thing, not all things.

21:21:53 fractal: interesting link jurov

21:21:53 mircea_popescu: "why do ocean liners work like ocean liners, rather than like salvage boats ? wouldn't it be better if they were salvage boats themselves, rather than dump salvage boats on the ocean when needed ?"

21:21:56 ThickAsThieves: "HashFast’s Golden Nonce GN ASIC successfully taped-out yesterday, Wednesday the 28th, and has been released for 28nm fabrication to a well-known, leading-edge foundry. More details will follow in next week’s joint press release. https://hashfast.com/tapeout/"

21:22:12 mircea_popescu: bleeding-edge now became leading-edge ?

21:22:36 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves drop them a bitbet link see what they say >D

21:23:07 mircea_popescu: http://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate << this fucking graph is mind boggling

21:23:07 ThickAsThieves: someone already has that job ;)

21:23:09 ozbot: Bitcoin Hash Rate

21:23:53 fractal: This mining unit contains one HashFast Golden Nonce (GN) 28nm ASIC chip that performs 400 Ghash/s

21:24:28 ThickAsThieves: so what will this chart look like in 1 year ythink?

21:24:34 fractal: mircea_popescu: I'm pretty confident that someone will make a 14nm chip that does over 2Th/sec ... care to make a BitBet on it?? ;)

21:24:34 mircea_popescu: same.

21:24:41 Anduck: btw mircea_popescu, about the bitfury bet... if those 5 deliveries (25gh unit and 400gh unit) both get delivered this month (total 5 deliveries atleast), is the bet "yes"?

21:24:41 mircea_popescu: fractal go for it.

21:25:03 mircea_popescu: Anduck more likely to be a yes than if they don't get delivered.

21:25:04 Anduck: is there a ruling about that yet i was wondering

21:25:16 Anduck: but is there anything that bet can fall after that?

21:25:17 jurov: ;;calc 70*1.02^365

21:25:24 jurov: ;;calc 70*1.02**365

21:25:26 ThickAsThieves: i dont think they rule til its time

21:25:46 jurov: if 2% per day

21:26:00 jurov: ;;nethash

21:26:18 jurov: ;;calc 613384*1.02**365

21:26:23 ThickAsThieves: lol

21:26:34 toffoo: put all-time and log scale on that chart and this year's growth doesn't look all that extraordinary

21:26:52 mircea_popescu: toffoo it does if you know what log means :)

21:27:32 mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=264758.msg3038516#msg3038516 here we go

21:27:36 ozbot: EVE Bitcoin Corp

21:30:21 ThickAsThieves: i wonder if Steam will carry BTCT one day

21:30:30 mircea_popescu: lol

21:31:30 Duffer1: they're perfect for btc

21:32:32 ThickAsThieves: time for some fun news

21:33:01 ThickAsThieves: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/black-budget-summary-details-us-spy-networks-successes-failures-and-objectives/2013/08/29/7e57bb78-10ab-11e3-8cdd-bcdc09410972_story.html

21:33:03 ozbot: ‘Black budget’ summary details U.S. spy network’s successes, failures and objectives - The Was

21:33:16 ThickAsThieves: "The $52.6 billion “black budget” for fiscal 2013, obtained by The Washington Post from former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden, maps a bureaucratic and operational landscape that has never been subject to public scrutiny. "

21:33:31 ThickAsThieves: http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/29/4672524/blood-worms-infest-oklahoma-towns-water-supply

21:33:33 ozbot: Blood worms infest Oklahoma town's tap water | The Verge

21:33:36 ThickAsThieves: "THE CHLORINE WON'T KILL THEM, THE BLEACH WON'T KILL THEM."

21:33:53 ThickAsThieves: http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/29/4667470/the-strange-case-of-ouyas-free-the-games-fund

21:33:55 ozbot: Kickstarter responds to the strange case of Ouya's Free the Games program | Polygon

21:34:34 ThickAsThieves: "Dear Kickstarter, .... A good number of our backer profiles have no previous Kickstarter history. These profiles joined in July/August 2013, and have profile pictures of famous celebrities instead of real people. I previously reached out to Amazon Payments for clarification and they suggested I get in touch with you."

21:35:51 ThickAsThieves: "Kickstarter: Hi Sam,Thanks for writing in, and congratulations on the success of your project! If you'd like to know more about backers who have found your project, you can always take a look at their profile to get a better feel for them. "

21:35:51 ThickAsThieves: kickstarter run by robots?

21:35:51 ThickAsThieves: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/08/29/justice-medical-marijuana-laws/2727605/?csp=breakingnews

21:35:51 ozbot: Justice Dept. won't challenge state marijuana laws

21:35:51 ThickAsThieves: "The Justice Department will not attempt to challenge state laws that allow for the medical and recreational use of marijuana as long as the drug sales do not conflict with eight new federal enforcement priorities."

21:36:18 ThickAsThieves: no link to the 8, sorry

21:36:28 ThickAsThieves: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/judge-nfl-players-settle-concussion-lawsuits

21:36:30 ozbot: NFL to pay $765M to settle concussion lawsuits

21:36:43 ThickAsThieves: "The NFL has agreed to spend close to $800 million to diagnose and compensate potentially thousands of retired players who develop dementia and other brain disorders they blame on the violent, bone-crunching collisions that pro football has long celebrated in its highlight reels."

21:37:35 Duffer1: TaT I think you would like a website called Fark.com :P

21:38:23 fractal: Are bitbet rulings made right after the resolution cut-off?

21:38:33 fractal: or sometime between the bet closing and resolution date/time

21:38:36 fractal: ?

21:38:54 jurov: there's some disease that causes ppl to turn into aggregator bots?

21:39:13 fractal: mircea_popescu: are you the sole decider for bitbet resolutions?

21:39:14 jurov: fractal: there's some grace periods, hours to days

21:39:35 mircea_popescu: we don't know im a decider at all.

21:39:46 mircea_popescu: i'm just part owner.

21:39:49 ThickAsThieves: sorry jurov

21:40:00 jurov: ThickAsThieves: np, just joking a bit

21:40:06 mircea_popescu: the resolution time is when the bet is actually resolved.

21:40:50 ThickAsThieves: i could weave in some porn links if you are feeling nostalgic :)

21:41:01 fractal: mircea_popescu: how do the deciders decide ;)... do they read the discussion on the page?

21:41:10 ThickAsThieves: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/satoshi-square-an-homage-to-wall-st/#.Uh-_2RtvOXs

21:41:12 ozbot: Satoshi Square: the BTC Wall St. | Lets Talk Bitcoin

21:41:23 mircea_popescu: that's nopt porn!

21:41:40 mircea_popescu: fractal i suspect they massacre goats.

21:42:19 fractal: haha.. right.

21:42:57 ThickAsThieves: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1lc3is/pulled_article_from_tgb_5m_seizures_provide/

21:43:00 ozbot: Pulled Article from TGB: $5M Seizures Provide Insight To Mt.Gox Liquidity : Bitcoin

21:43:02 fractal: mircea_popescu: has there ever been a case there the wording is too vague to decide and the coins were returned back to their owners?

21:43:05 jborkl: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=192916.msg3033196#msg3033196

21:43:12 ozbot: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware

21:43:19 jborkl: mircea, there you go

21:44:00 jurov: fractal, there were some returs, hard to say if due to wording

21:44:53 mircea_popescu: fractal nope. the idea is that if the wording is too vague people don't bet.

21:45:01 fractal: do you know which ones were returned?

21:45:21 mircea_popescu: it's in the faq tho

21:46:22 fractal: "Bets can indeed be cancelled, but only if BitBet judges that material changes make the bet meaningless. "

21:46:28 mircea_popescu: jborkl they got a massive problem on their hands.

21:46:33 fractal: has that happened before?

21:46:51 mircea_popescu: suppose people want refunds enough for a batch and a half. what then ? they refund one bach onl;y, as the 2nd isn't whole.

21:47:17 mircea_popescu: fractal i think it happened once or twice, there was some bet about some sporting event or pageant or w/e that got cancelled.

21:47:31 fractal: ah ok...

21:48:00 fractal: jurov: I had a friend who was close to ordering 10K chips from avalon -- i convinced him not to due to uncertainty, and that their batch1 and batch2 were late

21:48:13 fractal: he owes me a few drinks ;)

21:48:21 jborkl: bitsyncom is a asshat

21:48:34 fractal: its just terrible customer service

21:48:36 mircea_popescu: somebody with more hardware knowledge than me : wtf are the holes http://i.imgur.com/oLiVXmJ.jpg ?

21:48:41 mircea_popescu: they can't be mounts can they ?!

21:48:52 fractal: yes. screws

21:49:06 mircea_popescu: what the fuck is this paranoia. what are they anchoring it against, hurricane force winds ?

21:49:16 fractal: haha

21:49:22 Duffer1: fan mounts?

21:49:46 mircea_popescu: Duffer1 they're keeping the battery cool ?

21:49:59 fractal: well, you can screw whatever you want to/against it

21:50:00 jborkl: heat sink mounts in the middle

21:50:03 mircea_popescu: o o o i see

21:50:06 mircea_popescu: aha, makes sense

21:50:39 ThickAsThieves: what i dont get, is why anyone would spend money after batch 1

21:50:41 fractal: uhh im pretty sure the heatsink goes on the back -- just like aalon units

21:50:53 fractal: ThickAsThieves: batch 2 ROI in BTC terms... batch 3 did not

21:50:57 ThickAsThieves: that disclaimer pretty much told you you were gonna get fucked

21:51:09 fractal: oh, the 'no bullshit' disclaimer?

21:51:12 ThickAsThieves: yeah

21:51:25 mircea_popescu: i must agree, steamboat is handling tyhings pretty well considering.

21:51:35 fractal: they delivered sucessfully on batch 1 on ROI terms... i guess people took a chance.... batch 3 was a red flag on price from the get-go though

21:51:52 mircea_popescu: fractal yeah.

21:52:09 ThickAsThieves: and then people just kept throwing thousands and thousands of coins at them for chips

21:52:24 ThickAsThieves: all while the batches were late

21:52:41 ThickAsThieves: and being delivered used

21:52:53 fractal: i sat through flame wars telling n00bs their batch 3 would never ROI

21:53:04 mircea_popescu: where, this ?

21:53:36 fractal: BTW -- best mining calculator so far -- http://www.btcinvest.net/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php

21:53:44 ThickAsThieves: "never ROI" has been a thing since before it was a thing

21:53:47 fractal: ignores dates and works on diff jumps , which is all that matters

21:54:29 fractal: the genesisblock calculator is pretty innaccurate as a 'month' could have an unknown number of diff jumps

21:54:58 ThickAsThieves: thank you for this

21:55:03 jborkl: I did not say which side the heat sinks sits on- just that was the mount hole for it

21:55:04 ThickAsThieves: nice calc

21:55:05 fractal: no prob...

21:56:13 fractal: i'm glad they also show you the BTC buy and hold -- most people say stupid things like 'well, if i dont get my entire BTC back, i'll still be up if the exchange rate rises!'

21:56:56 ThickAsThieves: while i agree, consider what they mightve done with the coins in their pocket instead...

21:57:15 jborkl: Mircea_Popescu - did you see that bug that basically boots mac users off IRC?

21:57:21 mircea_popescu: so basically you make over infinity time about 4x what you make in the first month.

21:57:26 jborkl: very lulzy

21:57:28 mircea_popescu: jborkl nop

21:57:38 fractal: they seem to think that spending USD to buy a machine that makes BTC is OK even if it you have less BTC then you'd get if you just bought the BTC itself

21:57:42 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves bought xbond at 1.4 ?

21:57:54 jborkl: خ ̷̴̐خخ ̷̴̐خ

21:57:56 ThickAsThieves: yeah right

21:57:57 mircea_popescu: fractal it's because they want to be part of the thing.

21:58:03 ThickAsThieves: more like labcoin at 40

21:58:15 jborkl: That crashes the webkit for mac users

21:58:32 mircea_popescu: so we have no mac users here !?

21:58:35 ThickAsThieves: bonds are probly the closest thing to a miner hedge around tho

21:58:36 fractal: mircea_popescu: so, losing money to be 'cool'? makes sense

21:58:38 jborkl: bgupta

21:58:39 fractal: ;)

21:58:53 mircea_popescu: fractal i'd link you to the article if i actually had a motherfducking blog ;/

21:59:14 pankkake: still down?

21:59:15 fractal: lol

21:59:19 pankkake: so amateurish

22:00:31 mircea_popescu: i know i sux

22:01:25 fractal: the thing i like about this calc http://www.btcinvest.net/bitcoin-mining-profit-calculator.php is that they also show a chart which will help n00bs understand exactly what diminishing returns look like ... i always hear 'oh, i'll just keep this USB Block Erupter going for the next 12 months until it ROIs'

22:01:58 fractal: asymptotes are fun.

22:07:44 mircea_popescu: who made it ?

22:08:07 fractal: not sure...

22:08:20 mircea_popescu: Stefan Teupe

22:08:30 fractal: but i've been saying that this is the right way to do mining calcs for a while -- just too lazy to have done it myself ;)

22:08:37 fractal: looks like they're starting to learn -- http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1lc025/so_today_is_the_day_i_start_mining_with_my_or_or/cbxt3w9

22:09:00 fractal: "If I would have taken that same $1500 I spent at that time and just bought bitcoins I would have gotten 214 btc, or in $27500 at current prices, FML"

22:09:13 mircea_popescu: heh

22:11:32 fractal: well... thats it for me... gotta run

22:11:37 fractal: goodnight

22:12:22 jurov: http://bitbet.us/bet/302/bitcoin-standardized-protocol-approved-this-summer/ >2 btc on the way, yay

22:12:27 Neil: ;;nethash

22:12:28 ozbot: BitBet - Bitcoin Standardized Protocol Approved this Summer

22:13:24 Neil: jurov: Has one been approved?

22:13:28 pankkake: was that a project? I thought the bitcoin standard was "bitcoind" for the devs

22:13:57 jurov: no i voted against. and RFC-style standard is meant, not just code

22:14:08 pankkake: which isn't that wrong. some standards are defined by one piece of source code too

22:14:08 jurov: *bet, not voted lol

22:14:15 Neil: Good, I bet against too

22:14:48 jurov: pankkake: if you need network of interoperating impelmentations, you can't just left it on code

22:15:13 jurov: maybe devs think so, but that doesn't make it true

22:15:23 Neil: I haven't even seen any effort at writing such a standard

22:16:44 pankkake: sure, ideally. but I think it's too soon

22:17:02 jurov: how so?

22:17:38 pankkake: there are still many things that could change, why write a standard?

22:17:38 jurov: we are just going to throw everything out and build Bitcoin 1.0 . riiiight.

22:17:55 pankkake: are there any other implementations running?

22:18:11 pankkake: well they could standardize some stuff I guess

22:18:14 Neil: Closest I've seen to a spec is the wiki, and that's full of holes and exceedingly vague in places

22:18:21 jurov: yes, they try. bitsofproof, libbitcoin, ...

22:19:26 jurov: and RFCs are amended, too.

22:21:13 pankkake: 2012 fraudsters is back

22:21:37 jurov: with /dtng/ ?

22:21:40 pankkake: with beautiful php deprecated errors

22:22:20 jurov: mircea_popescu: /dtng still exists somewhere?

22:22:46 mircea_popescu: polimedia.us/dtng/c/

22:22:51 mircea_popescu: html archive only

22:24:07 jurov: why only archive?

22:28:03 pankkake: http://polimedia.us/dtng/c/res/16243.html can't do that with bitcoin

22:28:05 ozbot: cyber

22:28:23 kakobrekla: http://bitbet.us/bet/521/labcoins-own-130nm-design-sample-chips-will-be/#c1307

22:28:27 ozbot: BitBet - Labcoins own 130nm design sample chips will be received by testers by 12TH SEPT 2013

22:28:28 kakobrekla: >Congratulations BitBet on allowing and actively promoting yet another scam bet. Those of you who actually use this betting service run by scammers need your head testing.

22:28:36 kakobrekla: i think commenting counts as using the service.

22:28:38 jurov: http://polimedia.us/dtng/b/src/128216887595.jpg sfw. kinda.

22:30:18 jurov: pankkake: reptilia tried to invent redeemable vouchers for this

22:30:39 jurov: iirc was not very successful

22:30:43 pankkake: there is a printable bitcoin tip service

22:47:13 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla im pretty sure that if anon says "scammer" many times things happen.

22:47:47 ThickAsThieves: i am stil on BFL's mailing list

22:47:51 ThickAsThieves: "What's going on with the network difficulty rate?

22:47:51 ThickAsThieves: As we continue to ship more product, the majority of the hashrate on the network is provided by Butterfly Labs equipment. There are other, smaller ASIC bitcoin mining device manufacturers entering the market with products as well, but the difficulty will continue to rise in proportion to the shipping of our 65nm miners."

22:48:19 ThickAsThieves: "I'm not sure I'm interested. Should I be?

22:48:19 ThickAsThieves: This is a question of mining strategy and is a personal decision. As a hardware manufacturer, BFL only guarantees the performance of our products, not the market conditions of their use. This makes it hard to give advice on mining strategy."

22:48:34 jborkl: i miss reptillia

22:49:01 ThickAsThieves: get ready for it

22:49:02 ThickAsThieves: "The counter argument is that the Monarch is still in development and won't start shipping until December. The 65nm products shipping now have a good ROI as of this writing. Market conditions are changing of course, but an increasing BTC price extends the life of all mining hardware. There is great value in taking delivery of your 65nm now."

22:49:04 mircea_popescu: As we continue to ship more product, the majority of the hashrate on the network is provided by Butterfly Labs equipment. <<< lol.

22:49:10 mircea_popescu: is it all in the securesauna room ?

22:49:43 ThickAsThieves: "an increasing BTC price extends the life of all mining hardware. "

22:50:05 pankkake: got the BFL mail too, but I don't remember ever giving it to them

22:50:07 mircea_popescu: "other, smaller venues which deliver actual mining units which you are invited to consider as peripheral to our five boxes of fans"

22:50:24 pankkake: and the mail they used is… odd

22:50:55 ThickAsThieves: maybe you signed up to their forums

22:51:06 pankkake: no and certainly with my real name mail

22:51:09 pankkake: +not

22:51:28 ThickAsThieves: maybe they buy lists from gox or such

22:51:54 pankkake: it may be possible. mtgox's accounts were hacked and I started getting a lot of bitcoin scams by mail on that mail

22:52:08 mircea_popescu: well... it's to be expected, scam slowly moves towards the bottoms of spamvertising

22:52:19 mircea_popescu: blf, pills, knockoff shit...

23:12:04 gatz: lol friedcat http://i.imgur.com/KxEuXnt.jpg

23:12:05 gatz: :DDD

23:13:31 mircea_popescu: lol

23:45:05 mircea_popescu: http://bitbet.us/bet/496/btc-network-hashrate-will-exceed-1-000-th-s-before/

23:45:10 ozbot: BitBet - BTC network hashrate will exceed 1,000 TH/s before December 14th 2013

23:45:10 mircea_popescu: 10:1 on yes.

23:45:21 mircea_popescu: what the fuck already. can it grow 15x in a season !?

23:47:08 mircea_popescu: ;;hashrate

23:47:13 mircea_popescu: ;;hash

23:47:20 mircea_popescu: ;;nethash