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Transcript for 29-08-2015, 1184 lines:

00:04:45 moonpunter: what invention?

00:04:54 *: moonpunter is lost

00:08:30 trinque: moonpunter: Bitcoin.

00:09:06 trinque: I am referencing our glorious head of state's comments re: business

00:22:06 moonpunter: ah

00:22:24 moonpunter: Agent Bell

00:47:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00070883 = 6.7339 BTC [-] {3}

00:52:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10200 @ 0.00071879 = 7.3317 BTC [+] {4}

01:07:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.0006982 = 8.4482 BTC [-] {6}

01:12:00 mircea_popescu: <ascii_field> that's the new usg catchword for 'bitcoin agrees to quietly kill itself because That Is How The World Works' ? << in a word, yes.

01:12:05 mircea_popescu: there';s no dream like pipe dream.

01:12:36 mircea_popescu: and iirc xapo founder was trying his darndest to elicit attention here to little result.

01:15:47 mircea_popescu: trinque let them get invested, all the more shit to pretend like "never happened".

01:15:58 mircea_popescu: like the scam foundation never pushed bfl and so forth.

01:17:05 mircea_popescu: "the man who really invented bitcoin" has a lot to explain re my cock up his throat.

01:17:31 mircea_popescu: more things that "couldn't have happened" etc.

01:19:46 mircea_popescu: also in the news, the "gum wars" of the 80s. http://40.media.tumblr.com/RF2VdCBLi47dakvvoIKvQ6fh_500.jpg

01:19:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1F4Ggxs )

01:20:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9600 @ 0.00069809 = 6.7017 BTC [-]

01:32:25 mircea_popescu: and the viking madchen of the 40s. http://40.media.tumblr.com/qoXAtsJnN46jpl344v9716wi_1280.jpg

01:32:25 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KrT4Eo )

01:37:29 kakobrekla: ;;tslb

01:37:32 gribble: Time since last block: 1 hour, 6 minutes, and 30 seconds

02:02:37 mats: o_o

02:03:01 mats: ;;bc,stats

02:03:03 gribble: Current Blocks: 371981 | Current Difficulty: 5.425663032788996E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 372959 | Next Difficulty In: 978 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 6 days, 12 hours, 28 minutes, and 48 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None

02:06:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6229 @ 0.00071318 = 4.4424 BTC [+]

02:22:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: dulap rebooted today for no reason known to me.

02:22:52 asciilifeform: i formally declare the hosting subcontractor to be a piece of shit

02:23:03 asciilifeform: and wish to make this known.

02:23:48 asciilifeform: my thirtybux/mo penIII idiot box in american datacenter, in contrast, now hosting 'incitatus', has had one unscheduled reset in ~6 years.

02:24:17 asciilifeform: dulap has had three in almost as many months.

02:25:22 asciilifeform: phuctor is now in recalculatory limbo, and may be for weeks; and therealbitcoin node is in blackhole limbo

02:40:17 mircea_popescu: hm.

02:41:04 mircea_popescu: ;;tslb

02:41:13 gribble: Time since last block: 1 minute and 54 seconds

02:42:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but it's bulletproof!!11

02:42:30 asciilifeform: l0l

02:42:35 asciilifeform: evidently not shitproof though.

02:42:41 mircea_popescu: myeah.

02:47:55 mircea_popescu: i think the latter kids don't really grok this "don't reboot machine " thing

02:48:13 asciilifeform: who? the hoster?

02:48:21 mircea_popescu: dulap may be the latest piece of software in actual use that yeah

02:48:41 asciilifeform: that would be not unlike bank not grokking 'don't smear shit over contents of safe deposit box'

02:48:54 mircea_popescu: dulap may be the latest piece of software in actual use that doesn't actually benefit from periodic rebooting

02:49:45 asciilifeform: not only does it not, but it absolutely impossible to do anything re: the running product having to be recalculated on warmup without 1) increasing complexity 25x 2) slowing down processing palpably

02:49:56 mircea_popescu: yea

02:50:17 mircea_popescu: what are youn gonna do once p runs out of ram ?

02:50:34 asciilifeform: we run out of sks long before this

02:50:40 asciilifeform: but at some point it would need more, yes.

02:50:43 mircea_popescu: sure but nevertheless

02:51:06 asciilifeform: then multiple boxes and clever things with pairwise gcd.

02:51:12 asciilifeform: but i don't actually expect to live this long.

02:51:37 mircea_popescu: there's a limit on how many humans may be people at the same time

02:51:45 mircea_popescu: imposed by adressable ram size.

02:51:50 mircea_popescu: that's the true meaning of "4096"

02:51:57 asciilifeform: approximately.

02:52:13 asciilifeform: sadly there appears to be a much smaller limit in practice

02:52:19 asciilifeform: imposed by fuck-knows-what.

02:52:25 mircea_popescu: WHERE the actual cosmos is in this entire new "computer universe" never ceases to shock and amaze.

02:52:58 *: mircea_popescu never could have predicted the "should be enough for anyone" magic number really discusses "how manby people may be alive"

02:53:46 asciilifeform: hilariously folks still discuss the situation in purely geometric or even thermodynamic terms

02:53:48 asciilifeform: 'how many fit'

02:54:17 asciilifeform: presumption being that planet ought to resemble a poultry plant

02:54:35 asciilifeform: can fit 3x if you saw off the beaks, aha.

02:55:39 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/XeVQDo0c63zgmd47cc6hmoEs_500.jpg

02:55:41 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hmoFeO )

02:56:01 asciilifeform: petrocheez

03:10:20 mircea_popescu: http://36.media.tumblr.com/3HWhJ1T6f3qxtgk3XNBxtajX_400.jpg

03:10:21 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Uc7E9d )

03:10:37 asciilifeform: thalidomide ftw

03:11:27 mircea_popescu: yup

03:11:36 mircea_popescu: saw a 20 yo with the flipper arm today.

03:11:55 asciilifeform: there ~are~ other ways to get there

03:13:20 mircea_popescu: http://40.media.tumblr.com/soXoQtJ0J3lclrrlqe86ZTVz_500.jpg

03:13:21 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hmpMv9 )

03:13:24 mircea_popescu: notrly/

03:13:52 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6150 @ 0.00070937 = 4.3626 BTC [-] {3}

03:25:30 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, at meta-kehlsteinhaus, herr metahitler plays metahide&seek with meta-y maids.

03:25:40 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/aGkz4XFcZ3dor6bbXrS6cBPP_500.jpg

03:25:42 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Uc8y5r )

03:26:45 asciilifeform: l0l!

03:28:11 asciilifeform: http://i.imgur.com/1CdpS.jpg << in technicolour!

03:28:11 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Uc8Lp6 )

03:29:02 mircea_popescu: i have one for you, too!

03:29:17 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/rtTT2NJue3ao6fkxlSSg1uiy_500.jpg

03:29:19 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1Uc8PW8 )

03:29:32 asciilifeform: ahahahahaha. i think i ~have~ that one

03:30:01 asciilifeform: the book, that is.

03:30:33 mircea_popescu: lol

03:30:37 mircea_popescu: are there chicks in iut ?

03:30:43 asciilifeform: aha

03:31:02 asciilifeform: can't sit a bloke in front of a card punch, y'know

03:32:14 asciilifeform: http://j.livelib.ru/boocover/1000317190/o/4e97/A._Zaretskij_A._Truhanov__A_ya_byl_v_kompyuternom_gorode.jpeg << book i was given as a small boy

03:32:14 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hmqYi5 )

03:32:28 asciilifeform: http://royallib.com/read/zaretskiy_andrey/a_ya_bil_v_kompyuternom_gorode.html#0 << somebody scanned it...

03:32:29 assbot: А я был в Компьютерном Городе - Зарецкий Андрей :: Режим чтения ... ( http://bit.ly/1hmqYPa )

03:33:11 asciilifeform: http://royallib.com/read/zaretskiy_andrey/a_ya_bil_v_kompyuternom_gorode.html#204800 << skip to the 'encyclopaedic appendix' where the pics are.

03:33:12 assbot: А я был в Компьютерном Городе - Зарецкий Андрей :: Режим чтения ... ( http://bit.ly/1hmr3Cl )

03:33:50 asciilifeform: hilarious comic, which can't really be appreciated today, prolly.

03:34:34 asciilifeform: it helps to be a no older than 5 y.o. orc who has never seen or heard of a computer.

03:41:53 mircea_popescu: i hated these as a kid

03:42:09 mircea_popescu: "lying idiots, have nfi what a ocmputer is"

03:59:30 phf: http://j.livelib.ru/boocover/1000317190/o/4e97/A._Zaretskij_A._Truhanov__A_ya_byl_v_kompyuternom_gorode.jpeg << book i was given as a small boy << i remember that book! it had a totally soviet intelligentsia cat guy

03:59:30 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hmqYi5 )

04:00:28 phf: http://cs.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2014-01_6/13908191208532.jpg

04:00:29 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hKcjho )

04:02:33 phf: i forgot that event existed, probably got thrown out during the move, along with my copy of занимательная физика by perelman

04:04:29 phf: i had a friend, who run a fido node from his apartment, who looked exactly like that cat, if that's even possible

04:05:46 trinque: translation of the caption?

04:07:03 phf: "what sort of information can a computer output to the monitor?" "oh, all kinds..."

04:19:35 asciilifeform: i still have that perelman.

04:19:53 asciilifeform: (no, not the currently famous one. entirely other fella)

04:24:47 phf: biggest disappointment of my schools years, turns out that "flea balloon" idea doesn't quite work

04:41:41 mats: http://j00ru.vexillium.org/ntapi/ I had no idea a complete table like this existed

04:41:43 assbot: Microsoft Windows System Call Table (NT/2000/XP/2003/Vista/2008/7/8) ... ( http://bit.ly/1EqzKGO )

04:55:04 phf: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu et al: dulap rebooted today for no reason known to me. << if you start evaluating new hosting solutions, try these guys http://www.tummy.com. uptime on my box 529 days

04:55:05 assbot: Welcome to tummy.com – tummy.com, ltd. ... ( http://bit.ly/1EqBe3z )

05:19:31 asciilifeform: phf: no go - usa.

05:21:58 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14350 @ 0.00070072 = 10.0553 BTC [-] {3}

05:40:29 phf: ha, found it, flea balloon idea was in "Mechanics for entertainment", http://glyf.org/tmp/flea-balloon-1.png http://glyf.org/tmp/flea-balloon-2.png

05:40:31 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KTbrxH )

05:40:32 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KTbrxL )

05:43:05 phf: asciilifeform: i thought dulap hosting was stateside. shame, tummy people are excellent at what they do

05:44:47 phf: (entire perelman archive in djvu http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/P/PEREL'MAN_Yakov_Isidorovich/_Perel'man_Ya.I..html, probably of interest only for ascii)

05:44:48 assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1LIa62q )

05:44:50 phf: !up Bingo_VACAY

05:45:26 punkman: http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/655437/9a48cd3e7a8cbe8a/

05:45:28 assbot: A look at The Machine [LWN.net] ... ( http://bit.ly/1LIa8HM )

05:46:20 phf: !up Bingo_VACAY

05:47:37 Bingo_VACAY: Kidneys agents surround me. May have to dick my way out

05:48:17 Bingo_VACAY: *Kismet's agents

05:49:40 punkman: Bingo_VACAY: did you get the job?

05:51:39 punkman: http://paulgraham.com/safe.html

05:51:39 assbot: Why It's Safe for Founders to Be Nice ... ( http://bit.ly/1LIaBK7 )

05:52:12 Bingo_VACAY: Best evidence rule

06:11:27 Bingo_VACAY: Sorry taking notes

06:11:58 Bingo_VACAY: Kismet is treacherous

06:14:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00070007 = 4.8305 BTC [-] {3}

06:25:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00069933 = 2.5875 BTC [-]

06:30:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9368 @ 0.00069933 = 6.5513 BTC [-] {3}

06:54:29 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13584 @ 0.0006966 = 9.4626 BTC [-]

07:42:16 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2100 @ 0.00070527 = 1.4811 BTC [+]

07:48:32 punkman: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2400519

07:48:33 assbot: The Economics of Bitcoin Transaction Fees by Nicolas Houy :: SSRN ... ( http://bit.ly/1NFc6ZF )

07:49:23 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7150 @ 0.00070413 = 5.0345 BTC [-]

07:52:29 punkman: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/26/world/europe/a-21st-century-migrants-checklist-water-shelter-smartphone.html

07:52:33 assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1hmFYfV )

07:52:36 punkman: "Mr. Ali noted the popularity of Facebook groups such as “Smuggle Yourself to Europe Without a Trafficker.”"

08:02:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12350 @ 0.00070173 = 8.6664 BTC [-]

08:48:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5242 @ 0.00070163 = 3.6779 BTC [-] {2}

08:49:22 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8308 @ 0.00069638 = 5.7855 BTC [-]

09:14:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2550 @ 0.00069638 = 1.7758 BTC [-]

09:34:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5472 @ 0.00069873 = 3.8235 BTC [+] {2}

09:37:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2600 @ 0.00069638 = 1.8106 BTC [-] {2}

09:45:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00070535 = 2.4687 BTC [+] {4}

10:03:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7250 @ 0.00070513 = 5.1122 BTC [-]

10:04:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00070513 = 3.2083 BTC [-]

10:11:57 shinohai: https://redd.it/3ird55 <<< rofl *of course you got hacked*

10:12:00 assbot: Holy shit my eth accounts been hacked : ethereum ... ( http://bit.ly/1LIwQ2m )

10:42:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6370 @ 0.00070241 = 4.4744 BTC [-] {3}

11:26:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6316 @ 0.00070961 = 4.4819 BTC [+] {3}

11:36:42 btcdrak: mircea_popescu: I know your views about XTcoin, but what are your views about raising the blocksize limit by proper technical consensus and released through Bitcoin Core?

12:10:03 kakobrekla: btcdrak http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-08-2015#1240685

12:10:04 assbot: Logged on 17-08-2015 19:24:23; mircea_popescu: incidentally ascii_field mod6 kakobrekla jurov & mike_c do let me know if you'd like me to publish http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-08-2015#1240297 on fraudsters as "b-a's notion of a block increasing hardfork".

12:16:01 mats: http://www.gliderzz.com I have been seeing these around a lot lately

12:16:02 assbot: Gliderz - Personal Transportation Devices – Gliderzz ... ( http://bit.ly/1ErezUW )

12:18:45 kakobrekla: segway without the handle stick?

13:28:38 mircea_popescu: ;;tslb

13:28:41 gribble: Time since last block: 13 minutes and 46 seconds

13:29:33 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255201 << is that soft pr0n on his monitor ?

13:29:33 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 04:00:28; phf: http://cs.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2014-01_6/13908191208532.jpg

13:29:54 mircea_popescu: hory sheit it is.

13:30:15 mircea_popescu: that's her right nipple and her left tit under that pinkish mess.

13:30:59 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8400 @ 0.00069942 = 5.8751 BTC [-]

13:35:58 mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255258 << what kako said, with the rider that the proposed thing carried exactly zero support by the people named.

13:35:58 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 11:36:42; btcdrak: mircea_popescu: I know your views about XTcoin, but what are your views about raising the blocksize limit by proper technical consensus and released through Bitcoin Core?

13:40:05 *: kakobrekla doesnt see benefits in forking

13:45:29 mircea_popescu: "So bummed right now, wonder who http://explorer.etherapps.info/address/0xfe6404ba34ea4c30538ff4d058f4bf883220fd79 is."

13:45:29 assbot: Just a moment... ... ( http://bit.ly/1UcRJas )

13:45:40 mircea_popescu: dude what the fuck is wrong with these broken minds.

13:46:15 mircea_popescu: fucking monkeys already. so he fucks up, once by getting involved in a piece of shit scam, the other for sucking at math. and what he wants to know ain't "i wonder how i could be less fucktarded" at any point.

13:47:34 mircea_popescu: instead it's "hey, let's fix my being a monkey with more monkeying around!"

13:47:50 mircea_popescu: /0xfe6404ba34ea4c30538ff4d058f4bf883220fd79 is the fucking aliens, how about that.

13:47:54 mircea_popescu: it's chtulhu.

13:49:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1900 @ 0.00069842 = 1.327 BTC [-]

13:54:42 mircea_popescu: ;;calc 2000 * 1.64 / (1160*2.03*3)

13:54:42 gribble: 0.46429986977

13:56:57 mircea_popescu: "I told him not to worry about it, because so long as he built something good enough to spread by word of mouth, he'd have a hyperlinear growth curve. If he was bad at extracting money from people, at worst this curve would be some constant multiple less than 1 of what it might have been. But a constant multiple of any curve is exactly the same shape. The numbers on the Y axis are smaller, but the curve is just as stee

13:56:57 mircea_popescu: p, and when anything grows at the rate of a successful startup, the Y axis will take care of itself."

13:57:02 mircea_popescu: this guy is completely fucktarded wtf.

13:57:04 mircea_popescu: this, he calls math ?

13:57:20 mircea_popescu: i thought graham was supposed to be a competent old lisp hand. is this the brainrot lisp instills in people ?

13:58:26 mircea_popescu: "Some examples will make this clear. Suppose your company is making $1000 a month now, and you've made something so great that it's growing at 5% a week. Two years from now, you'll be making about $160k a month.

13:58:27 mircea_popescu: Now suppose you're so un-rapacious that you only extract half as much from your users as you could. That means two years later you'll be making $80k a month instead of $160k. How far behind are you? How long will it take to catch up with where you'd have been if you were extracting every penny? A mere 15 weeks. After two years, the un-rapacious founder is only 3.5 months behind the rapacious one."

13:58:47 mircea_popescu: here's what i propose : paul graham eat 500 calories for every 1k calories he expends.

13:59:00 mircea_popescu: he's so hyperfucktarded, he's only going to be 50% behind actual entrepreneurs.

13:59:09 mircea_popescu: rather than the 99.94% his piece of shit "ventures" are currently.

13:59:31 asciilifeform: in other nyooz, dulap is still ~50 blox behind

13:59:51 mircea_popescu: so techniucally it'd be an improvement. and if he stops eating at all and instead starts puking edible vomit like some sort of invertebrate cornucopia, he might even be socially useful FOR ONCE IN HIS SAD EXISTENCE

14:00:04 mircea_popescu: what the fuck is with these people omfg.

14:00:06 asciilifeform: (lengthy blackhole periods apparent to naked eye, in log)

14:00:16 mircea_popescu: i've been up an hour i've been reading nothing but scandalous stupidity.

14:00:42 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255266 << sadly my copy of the book has a blank screen...

14:00:42 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 13:29:33; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255201 << is that soft pr0n on his monitor ?

14:01:17 mircea_popescu: i can see why.

14:01:35 mircea_popescu: i never knew the russians to be czech minded.

14:01:44 mircea_popescu: afaik they're about as fucktardedly puritan as the anglos

14:01:50 mircea_popescu: brief 90s lapse notwithstanding.

14:04:10 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255288 << he wrote a textbook on basic common lisp for schoolchildren once. i still have it. can't comment on his programmatic work, afaik none of it has ever been published openly...

14:04:10 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 13:57:20; mircea_popescu: i thought graham was supposed to be a competent old lisp hand. is this the brainrot lisp instills in people ?

14:04:37 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform look at this perhaps very worrisome set of two examples.

14:05:16 mircea_popescu: 1) naggum spent his mind on thinking about lisp, ended up a 40year old too fucktarded to get out of the rain. this is literally what happened, and one will have a lot of trouble talking around the failure of some guy to avoid dying of perforated ulcer.

14:05:35 mircea_popescu: 2) graham spent his mind on thinking about lisp, ended up a 60 yo too fucktarded to understand even the most basic points of math.

14:05:50 mircea_popescu: this "take one side of the story and run with it" is speciufic of ambitious if none too bright 15 yo boys.

14:06:26 punkman: asciilifeform: he had his own lisp and I think he published the code that ran HN at some point

14:06:40 asciilifeform: punkman: 'arc.' it turned out to consist of standard scheme with shortened operator.

14:06:42 asciilifeform: s

14:06:44 asciilifeform: operators.

14:08:38 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: graham is an illustration of something else: the corrosive effect of taking scam-money, regardless of the purpose, on intellectual honesty and in turn intelligence itself

14:08:58 asciilifeform: it is impossible to do anything like proper thinking with sc4mz0rated priors

14:09:29 asciilifeform: in the very best case, the result looks like tommy aquinas.

14:11:52 asciilifeform: not sure if this adds anything to mircea_popescu's line of thought, but it is known that paul graham wrote common lisp programs using... vi. this drives me to barking madness after five minutes, and it is difficult to picture what brain might look like after a whole year of it, or what said brain must have looked like to even contemplate doing such a thing.

14:14:39 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform name a guy who did lisp and survived mind intact.

14:14:51 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255261 >>>> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-08-2014#807681

14:14:51 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 12:16:01; mats: http://www.gliderzz.com I have been seeing these around a lot lately

14:14:51 assbot: Logged on 24-08-2014 21:40:36; *: asciilifeform had a dream many years ago that his grandfather took an ancient grinding wheel from workshop, turned it upside-down, and taught him to ride it. and now people actually do something quite like this.

14:14:55 mircea_popescu: maybe you're right, and it's incidentals. or maybe lisp to the young mind is like meth-lsd

14:15:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: neither of the folks you named encountered it as a young man

14:15:32 mircea_popescu: "young man" = under 50.

14:15:35 asciilifeform: (rms would be a better example)

14:15:43 mircea_popescu: rms is not exactly a paragon of sanity.

14:15:51 mircea_popescu: but in his case, it's prolly congenital.

14:15:57 asciilifeform: hence better example of 'lisp as newton's mercury'

14:16:27 mircea_popescu: not that i'm persuaded, but one can't not notice the coincidence.

14:17:13 mircea_popescu: and yes, the "scam money rots your brain" think is also a very powerful theory.

14:17:27 asciilifeform: more mundanely, sane folks tend to not end up famous.

14:17:37 mircea_popescu: in this field ?!

14:17:43 asciilifeform: in any field.

14:17:44 mircea_popescu: babbage was famous alright.

14:17:55 mircea_popescu: the list of sane folks in logic is impressive.

14:18:03 mircea_popescu: now, math people are generally a loony bunch, but

14:18:27 mircea_popescu: in computing (the actual kind) the record's not as bad as in most other disciplines.

14:19:33 asciilifeform: today, some degree of lunacy is almost a basic bar for being willing to touch the cursed machine in the first place.

14:20:53 mircea_popescu: i'm unpersuaded.

14:21:42 asciilifeform: properly sane people, for example, tend to stick to +ev activities.

14:21:49 mircea_popescu: and re vi - whatever!!1 i used it for years. nowadays i find i mostly use nano. then again nowadays i mostly read other people's reports.

14:22:01 mircea_popescu: no activities are +ev, yo.

14:22:18 mircea_popescu: this is what being intelligent means : the more intelligent you are, the less often you get more than what you put into things.

14:22:24 mircea_popescu: that's the test.

14:22:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: every sysadmin loves vi and nano, even. but programming in common lisp in an editor which doesn't automatch parens and autoindent is an example of something i might do in hell

14:22:41 mircea_popescu: o that. well sure.

14:22:50 mircea_popescu: i also you know, don't draw self portraits in it.

14:24:02 asciilifeform: and it is perhaps just barely possible to program in it without 'who-calls', 'apropos', etc., but certainly not pleasant.

14:24:38 punkman: editing text in a console drives me mad

14:26:08 mircea_popescu: you do it on printouts ?

14:27:51 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform also, art is always and by definition a -ev activity, and people engage in it. for that matter, love and childmaking idem.

14:28:03 mircea_popescu: so there's a number of different problems with this "ev activity" line of reasoning.

14:28:57 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: art is +ev in the artist's diseased head. which is why insanity is a must.

14:29:05 mircea_popescu: dobut it.

14:29:32 mircea_popescu: i write the occasional bit of poetry/literature, and i don't either regard it as some sort of gain or myself as insane (for it)

14:30:52 asciilifeform: '+ev in his head' != 'consciously regard as gain'

14:31:12 mircea_popescu: but what then ?

14:33:49 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-07-2015#1193607 << possibly this

14:33:49 assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 19:34:29; ascii_field: far more interesting is the trait hasn eysenck called 'psychoticism'

14:34:36 asciilifeform: he pictured originality in thought as something like the 'temperature' in a simulated-annealing

14:34:59 asciilifeform: turn it up past a certain point, and you get something clearly recognizable as 'batshit'

14:35:16 mircea_popescu: i see little more at work than utter contempt for "fellow man" in the common sense this is given.

14:35:17 asciilifeform: turn it all the way down - you get a housewife

14:35:41 mircea_popescu: that most creative people throughout the ages would prefer to pretend "they're insane" rather than make plain their complete inadherence to the mob is readily understandable

14:35:46 mircea_popescu: also known as "it's not you, it's me"

14:36:12 asciilifeform: 'insane' is necessarily a judgement made by the mob

14:36:17 mircea_popescu: a housewife is exactly that : someone completely adherent to the mob. so much so she can spend all her time with children and not care.

14:36:23 mircea_popescu: not so.

14:36:27 asciilifeform: (discounting modern folks who walks around pretending to be newton on account of hearing voices, etc)

14:38:48 asciilifeform: housewife 'adheres to the mob', yes. but the trait in question (or rather lack thereof) is the ~why~

14:42:49 asciilifeform: from my point of view, proper 'insane' is when someone is so 'hot' that his mind has trouble sticking even to... arithmetic, cause-and-effect, and other knobs of the physical world we live in.

14:43:18 asciilifeform: sorta like you can't have chemistry, in the customary electroweak-force sense, happen on the surface of a star.

14:44:07 asciilifeform: see canonical 'timecube'.

14:52:46 mircea_popescu: maybe a sufficient approach if all you care about is handling and predicting

14:52:48 mircea_popescu: rather than "curing"

14:53:20 mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the model breaks down on low states. which is why the housewife is such a problem for your approach : she's hot alright.

14:53:32 asciilifeform: in what sense hot ?

14:53:51 mircea_popescu: in the sense that her brain works.

14:53:53 asciilifeform: ice-cold, as far as i can tell

14:54:05 asciilifeform: it works, but in the way a train works - on rails laid down by others.

14:55:36 mircea_popescu: you talking from books or experience ?

14:56:44 asciilifeform: from experience with the usual boring specimens of humanity one encounters on the street, in trains, lifts, jury box

14:57:55 asciilifeform: the folks who neatly cancel out one another's sharp edges.

15:00:23 mircea_popescu: it is generally rare to find a woman so stupid her actual optimal level is housewifing.

15:00:31 mircea_popescu: it's about 80ish or so iq, reall.

15:01:30 asciilifeform: ^ by definition not especially rare

15:02:32 mircea_popescu: it is rare, yes. look at the normal distribution, between say 88 and maybe 75 you get what, 4% of the population ?

15:03:23 asciilifeform: ~14

15:03:36 asciilifeform: grind the gaussian.

15:07:41 *: mircea_popescu looks at this

15:09:37 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you get 0.0726 between -1.15 and -.85 deviation.

15:09:45 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255216 << the scheme pictured isn't terribly useful for the same reason that dirigibles are difficult to fly.

15:09:45 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 05:40:29; phf: ha, found it, flea balloon idea was in "Mechanics for entertainment", http://glyf.org/tmp/flea-balloon-1.png http://glyf.org/tmp/flea-balloon-2.png

15:10:37 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4250 @ 0.00069712 = 2.9628 BTC [-]

15:10:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: traditionally '70' corresponds to -2 sd, and '85' to -1.

15:11:09 asciilifeform: by weschler, that is

15:11:17 asciilifeform: stanford-binet had something else..

15:11:30 *: asciilifeform blows dust off ancient crud

15:11:54 mircea_popescu: which is why i went 15% either side of 1

15:12:08 mircea_popescu: anyway, point remains, rare enough.

15:12:50 asciilifeform: 'rare' enough to mostly guarantee a tard in every jury box, etc

15:12:57 mircea_popescu: i guess the formula probably is, "the predominance of women best suited for housewifing equals the unit divided by the maximal litter of a woman"

15:13:01 mircea_popescu: so like 1/12 or somethign lijke that

15:13:17 asciilifeform: don't discount the iq hit apparently imposed by spawning

15:13:26 asciilifeform: easily double-digit

15:13:46 mircea_popescu: how's that supposed to work ?

15:14:01 asciilifeform: ask them.

15:14:10 mircea_popescu: they're not putting forth this theory.

15:15:24 asciilifeform: can't say whether it is a biological effect or simply the matter of being in a room with small children entire day

15:15:56 mircea_popescu: same hit people going to work for a bureaucracy exhibit.

15:16:23 mircea_popescu: (which, incidentally, is WHY we only care to fuck women < 20something. that's it. after she's moved on to office life, you can have her.)

15:16:26 asciilifeform: approximately

15:16:54 asciilifeform: brain atrophies much like muscles

15:17:27 asciilifeform: this incidentally is behind 'thinking people want to ~use~ their brains' which mircea_popescu counted as a sin

15:18:01 mircea_popescu: there's a difference between wanting to use your brain as a general thing,

15:18:09 mircea_popescu: and wanting everything you do to be driven by your brain.

15:18:20 mircea_popescu: the former's sane, the later's of the same ilk as children going to bed in their favourite clothes

15:18:27 mircea_popescu: BUT IT'S MY FAVOURITE PRINCESS GOWN!!11

15:18:34 mircea_popescu: well... if you sleep in it, it won't be for long.

15:18:37 asciilifeform: l0l

15:18:54 mircea_popescu: aha.

15:19:10 asciilifeform: but the point remains, that microscope does not benefit from use as hammer.

15:19:34 mircea_popescu: whereas fuctkarded abstractions fucktarded people come up with greatly, and i do mean GREATLY benefit from a spanking.

15:20:41 asciilifeform: spank if you must, this old gray head, but spare your country's flag, she said

15:20:43 asciilifeform: or how did it go.

15:22:55 diana_coman: asciilifeform> don't discount the iq hit apparently imposed by spawning <- interesting theory, as a mother of a 3yo I can say that the only way I can see that work is mainly due perhaps to sleep deprivation

15:23:09 asciilifeform: diana_coman: iirc chetty said something similar

15:23:15 asciilifeform: the last time this came up

15:23:17 mircea_popescu: diana_coman i bet you it's primarly driven by internalised expectations.

15:24:27 diana_coman: and no, I don't spend my whole day in a room with small children (and even when I do play with the lo, I find myself quickly ending up basically explaining graph theory on his train set/track or something other - not out of some idea that it will make him a genius, but out of boredom, yes)

15:24:37 mircea_popescu: rearing children is perhaps not so unlike going to reeducation camp for a few years. it "didn't work" on a. solzhenitsyn. it DID work, obviously, on all the schmucks he knows by name but you do not. so...

15:24:39 mircea_popescu: depends

15:24:59 diana_coman: there is a big shock in the first year for sure

15:25:03 mircea_popescu: diana_coman which is how camp inmates ended up teaching linguistics lmao

15:25:49 diana_coman: but not sure why/how/whether that shock really is about brain matter shrinking or something

15:26:39 diana_coman: oh, the first days/weeks or so yeah, hormones all over the place and funny stuff (such as forgetting why I went to a room or another or stuff like that)

15:26:50 mircea_popescu: that's ok, i do that all the time anyway.

15:28:43 diana_coman: fwiw children actually enjoy even graph theory (if explained on train track sets) so no, it's not as if one has to really dumb down necessarily just for being with them

15:28:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255432 << considering that this works just as perceptibly on the fathers, it is probably an effect of hanging out with children

15:28:56 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 15:24:37; mircea_popescu: rearing children is perhaps not so unlike going to reeducation camp for a few years. it "didn't work" on a. solzhenitsyn. it DID work, obviously, on all the schmucks he knows by name but you do not. so...

15:29:28 mircea_popescu: diana_coman again, matter of internalised expectations.

15:29:58 mircea_popescu: children, inasmuch as they're yours, expect exactly what they're getting and will be equally thankful for it, which is why a six year old is happy whether poor african or rich swede, just as long as he's with his mother.

15:30:04 mircea_popescu: !up Huxy

15:31:15 diana_coman: yes, but more than that, they are actually curious (as far as I can tell and not only based on mine) and enjoy something new - they don't care about the level really, so it's more a matter of what the other people can "feed" them really

15:31:38 diana_coman: sure, they will be equally delighted with someone speaking gibberish to them

15:31:44 mircea_popescu: yup

15:31:51 diana_coman: but that doesn't mean that you *have* to speak gibberish to them

15:32:10 mircea_popescu: exactly. you don't have to grow fat and stupid now that you have kids. but if you expect to, sure, you will.

15:32:26 mircea_popescu: and they don't have to learn about santa and the guy in the sky. they will, sure, if that's what you wanna tell me.

15:32:30 mircea_popescu: 'em*

15:33:15 diana_coman: pretty much, yes

15:35:58 mircea_popescu: diana_coman so are you making another ?

15:36:23 diana_coman: lolz, I guess if I am, then I will, won't I?

15:36:32 mircea_popescu: well obviously lol.

15:44:33 punkman: http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/12/his/

15:44:35 assbot: DHS Wishes Local Arab-American Would Just Hatch Terrorist Plot Already ... ( http://bit.ly/1hKVkvv )

15:45:23 mircea_popescu: lol

15:47:23 mircea_popescu: !up refferedbyloper

15:48:14 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15700 @ 0.00069803 = 10.9591 BTC [+] {4}

15:53:48 asciilifeform: umm no he isn't

15:53:56 asciilifeform: or he'd be 'referredbyloper'

15:54:33 asciilifeform: ( as pictured in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1504 )

15:54:35 assbot: Loper OS » Phuctor Broke Several RSA Keys. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UjY1Qk )

15:54:46 asciilifeform: so wtf ?

15:55:15 punkman: he figured out how to get !up's

15:55:29 asciilifeform: doesn't seem to be doing much with this one.

15:56:00 mircea_popescu: odd ?!

15:56:29 asciilifeform: refferedbyloper: you managed to discover how to begin at less than zero, congrats

15:56:35 mircea_popescu: lol

15:59:47 refferedbyloper: son't be mean, but be paranoid :) i'm just lurking around reading logs

16:00:22 mircea_popescu: http://40.media.tumblr.com/xZCzkpWy231sbgjtbgzNfZVG_1280.jpg did we do iced tits yet ?

16:00:23 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hKWsPO )

16:00:23 punkman: http://stopforumspam.com/ipcheck/

16:00:24 assbot: IP Reports for ... ( http://bit.ly/1hKWpU5 )

16:07:53 mircea_popescu: ". In the same way that the people who used to use BBS systems in small numbers that are dwarfed by the number of internet users, Bitcoin will undergo a similar transformation, with similar beneficial effects, only this time, penetrating more deeply into society at every level than what is simple net access today."

16:07:56 mircea_popescu: god help us

16:08:20 mircea_popescu: because i'd so totally trade a mile of "internet" by which our friend of course means retardorama web 2.0, for an inch of bbs.

16:08:36 mircea_popescu: fortunately the point is exactly that bitcoin doesn't work like that.

16:09:10 punkman: who's that

16:10:46 mircea_popescu: reading through qnrtra comments

16:21:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1600 @ 0.00070353 = 1.1256 BTC [+] {2}

16:23:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8552 @ 0.00070108 = 5.9956 BTC [-]

16:27:33 punkman: https://kingcope.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/mikrotik-routeros-5-and-6-sshd-remote-preauth-heap-corruption/

16:27:35 assbot: Mikrotik RouterOS 5.* and 6.* sshd remote preauth heap corruption | kingcopes´ blag ... ( http://bit.ly/1hKYi2W )

16:48:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, re the constant empress cixi references : the esteemed duke of wellington also contributed "Depend upon it, Sir, nothing will come of them!"

16:50:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1500 @ 0.00070354 = 1.0553 BTC [+]

16:56:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10550 @ 0.00070354 = 7.4223 BTC [+]

17:05:00 trinque: does this "psychoticism" mean something like willingness to act *upon* a person or *through* them?

17:05:10 trinque: made me recall "ready-to-hand" from heidegger

17:07:25 mircea_popescu: i'd rather expect it's "a reckless disregard of life and property".

17:08:00 trinque: if that, I don't see immediately how it could be an advantage.

17:08:03 mircea_popescu: which is properly called "manhood".

17:08:07 trinque: disregard certainly, depending on towards what

17:08:08 mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://33.media.tumblr.com/aGkz4XFcZ2vt33xmbntwBlXP_500.gif

17:08:10 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hnu2KS )

17:08:23 trinque: but if I disregard my nailgun, might not get useful results

17:08:48 trinque: hearing aids have made quite the improvements over the years

17:09:07 mircea_popescu: trinque you familiar with the "psychotic" observation of poincarre (the president, not the other one) that "universal lack of suffering may never be a policy goal, for the simplest means to effect it would be simply killing everyone" ?

17:09:26 trinque: I wasn't, but I see the sense in it.

17:10:03 mircea_popescu: well it is also in what a government of women would hold (and in those countries which do allow such nonsense, do hold) as reckless disregard of their litter.

17:11:53 trinque: naturally they would, though what's sensible with a narrow view may be insane from a broader perspective

17:12:08 trinque: so I don't think I disagree, just that "who says it's reckless?"

17:12:29 mircea_popescu: i suppose the standard is "someone"

17:13:05 mircea_popescu: and no, "what's sensible with a narrow view may be insane from a broader perspective" doesn't hold because "every sperm is sacred" and assorted nonsense

17:13:10 mircea_popescu: EVERY LYF CUNTS!11

17:15:05 mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

17:15:06 assbot: Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python's The Meaning of Life - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1hnuIjk )

17:15:14 trinque: lol

17:16:26 trinque: I suppose its obvious, but it points to an inherent conflict between the sexes.

17:16:34 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255261 << seen any solowheels around?

17:16:34 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 12:16:01; mats: http://www.gliderzz.com I have been seeing these around a lot lately

17:16:37 trinque: even more extreme in other species

17:16:43 trinque: getting eaten after mating and such

17:19:15 mircea_popescu: the practical options are conflict or collapse.

17:19:30 mircea_popescu: you can't really have anything even resembling homeostasis in systems without contrary forces.

17:19:52 *: trinque nods

17:20:12 mircea_popescu: which is why "a life free of conflict" is such ridoinculous contradiction in terms.

17:20:22 mircea_popescu: you wanna be dead, go off yourself already.

17:21:45 mircea_popescu: https://bitbet.us/bet/1093/bitcoin-main-net-block-size-to-increase-in/#c4967 << lmao these derps still gonzoing around bitbet comments

17:21:46 assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 3.84 B (13%) on Yes, 26.68 B (87%) on No | closing in 2 months 2 weeks | weight: 24`943 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1MUlaZd )

17:21:51 mircea_popescu: must suck to suck.

17:22:00 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255342 << why not less, then, if we're not editing things.

17:22:00 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 14:21:49; mircea_popescu: and re vi - whatever!!1 i used it for years. nowadays i find i mostly use nano. then again nowadays i mostly read other people's reports.

17:22:27 mircea_popescu: ctrl-alt-W for one thing

17:22:38 mircea_popescu: or w/e, cW aB

17:22:45 ben_vulpes: and that does?

17:23:32 trinque: vi modal editing is superior

17:23:33 mircea_popescu: search

17:23:35 ben_vulpes: oh, find and replace?

17:23:44 mircea_popescu: search/reverse search.

17:23:45 trinque: I use evil in emacs for this very reason

17:23:53 mircea_popescu: and i do make some MINIMAL adnotations.

17:23:57 mircea_popescu: like fucking stalin.

17:24:20 trinque: I have no idea who thought these emacs "chords" were a good thing, but fuck that person

17:24:21 ben_vulpes: trinque: if i actually wrote code, i'd be more inclined to use evil.

17:24:23 trinque: I enjoy the use of my hands

17:24:44 ben_vulpes: as it is, the bulk of my time is spent performing archaeology.

17:24:58 ben_vulpes: speedup from modal editing would be negligible.

17:25:36 trinque: just a matter of staying off the modifier keys; I use space as leader and various sequences of keys from there, usually involving index and middle fingers

17:25:41 mircea_popescu: really, alf proposed a half truth when he said that if handling the mechanics of signing are the major time eater, one's clearly not doing enough work with the patches.

17:26:00 mircea_popescu: in point of fact, if the writing part's the big problem, one's clearly not thinking enough.

17:26:08 mircea_popescu: !up CohibAA

17:27:03 trinque: ben_vulpes: not really a speedup; I've just moved common emacs operations towards the middle of the keyboard

17:27:05 ben_vulpes: trinque: mircea_popescu's gist here is eerily similar to mr W's

17:27:24 trinque: switching buffers is space-space

17:27:50 trinque: esc is right alt

17:27:53 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/njE9Bw4rv2snpkftGZ97odjW_500.jpg

17:27:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MUlwyZ )

17:29:54 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/BCFVP7xlb2slk8hgr2iraZVi_500.jpgbecause CLEARLY they'd have her keep paties on. man those bugs climing abound on one's thighs is such horror.

17:29:55 assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1MUlC9Q )

17:30:32 mircea_popescu: for the record, /me holds the above way above theft and rape. it is the sort of intellectual dishonesty that should result in being drawn and quartered.

17:30:40 mats: ben_vulpes: nope

17:33:16 ben_vulpes: when i go full scammatronics vc bezzle the office campus will be navigated with 'solowheel' 'orbits'

17:35:47 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/2TdG78uXT2pyk3ybO7BUOTXA_500.jpg << and the panties were thrown.

17:35:48 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hnwSiW )

17:44:04 ben_vulpes: regarding graham, the focus on macros in his (published) work puts me off a bit. "look at the monstrous edifice of complexity i can hold within my mind!" instead of "look at this useful and easily fit-into-head thing i made".

17:46:57 trinque: ben_vulpes: seems generally you should always have a damned good reason for introducing new syntax

17:47:10 trinque: what that damned good reason might be still is not entirely clear to me

17:48:39 trinque: setf seems like an example of a good macro, where the general notion of "set the thing, whatever it is, to this value" is expanded to whatever the appropriate way to set that thing is

17:49:01 mircea_popescu: what does "value" mean tho ?

17:49:34 mircea_popescu: seems to me by the time i dun know anymore how to fill the something with water i have a problem more serious in there.

17:49:37 mircea_popescu: what something is it anyway ?

17:49:51 trinque: could be a slot on an object, could be some symbol

17:49:57 trinque: and the value would be an expression to evaluate

17:50:08 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255535 <<<< http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-02-2015#1011152

17:50:08 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 17:24:20; trinque: I have no idea who thought these emacs "chords" were a good thing, but fuck that person

17:50:08 assbot: Logged on 07-02-2015 02:20:39; the_scourge: 'Emacs actually comes with a builting Emacs Aptitude Test. Do you remap your keyboard or the Emacs keybindings before the chords and sequences it comes with by default have wreaked havoc with your hands? If you do not do anything to make Emacs more convenient for yourself, you may not have the prerequisite aptitude to use it productive.' (naggum, who else. http://www.xach.com/na < funny, that's one of t

17:50:09 trinque: but yes, that perspective is also sensible. "know what you're dealing with"

17:50:23 trinque: asciilifeform: indeed

17:50:30 mircea_popescu: if i want you to set a vector to "4" do i mean 4.0, 4.0, 4.0 ? do i mean 4.0, 0.0, 0.0 ie the 1st invariant ? do i mean 4.0, 1.0, 1.0 ie the 2nd invariant ? do i simply mean 4.0, normal, normal ? what normal ?

17:50:30 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255542 <<< i did say this, many times

17:50:30 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 17:26:00; mircea_popescu: in point of fact, if the writing part's the big problem, one's clearly not thinking enough.

17:51:49 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a ok

17:52:07 *: asciilifeform digs in logs, but fails to turn up, the discussion of typing

17:52:20 ben_vulpes: !s symbol from:asciilifeform

17:52:21 assbot: 14 results for 'symbol from:asciilifeform' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=symbol+from%3Aasciilifeform

17:52:21 *: asciilifeform writes perhaps a dozen lines of text on a typical day

17:52:31 asciilifeform: (of executable code, that is)

17:54:02 mircea_popescu: for that matter setting a rate of flow gauge (like say a tap) to "4" is not in any sense similar to setting a wallet to contain "4". it's more alike "4x", really.

17:54:17 mircea_popescu: intuitive impression to the contrary notwithstanding, values do not contain their own definition.

17:54:17 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255557 << the correct use of lispmacro is, as any other notation, to maximally orthogonalize the system

17:54:17 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 17:44:04; ben_vulpes: regarding graham, the focus on macros in his (published) work puts me off a bit. "look at the monstrous edifice of complexity i can hold within my mind!" instead of "look at this useful and easily fit-into-head thing i made".

17:54:24 mircea_popescu: which is why statistics is such iffy busienss.

17:55:52 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'macros' (in the lisp-family sense, because they DEMAND homoiconic language, and there are no others) exist to shoot 'design patterns' in the head

17:56:46 asciilifeform: (for non-programmers: just about every language, other than lisp-family, has repeated chunks of boilerplate that programmers end up forced to memorize, and litter their work with. these are sometimes called 'design patterns')

17:57:08 ben_vulpes: what do you have against the delegateHoldingMyHandWhileComplexThingsHappenThatNeedToCallTheSystemStateMachineWithSpecificInformation pattern, eh?

17:57:48 ben_vulpes: it is a very useful contract for writing code with other beebul!

17:58:15 trinque: naggum on lisp not turning people into cogs

17:58:27 trinque: ^ macro, pls expand

17:58:28 asciilifeform: trinque: that was my piece actually

17:58:31 trinque: ah whoops

17:58:33 asciilifeform: l0l

17:59:00 asciilifeform: !s lisp cogs

17:59:00 assbot: 4 results for 'lisp cogs' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=lisp+cogs

18:00:54 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255484 << run moar weird closedsource networking systems, aha

18:00:54 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 16:27:33; punkman: https://kingcope.wordpress.com/2013/09/02/mikrotik-routeros-5-and-6-sshd-remote-preauth-heap-corruption/

18:01:16 ben_vulpes: well until trinque writes his database-inspecting UI generator, i'm stuck building machines that write software to extract data from databases and render it and manipulatory widgets for it.

18:01:18 ben_vulpes: WITH PEOPLE.

18:02:10 ben_vulpes: eg cogs.

18:02:15 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: y'know, you don't have to make the 'people' write programs. could send them to, e.g., make you coffee, while you write commonlisp

18:02:38 asciilifeform: or even could not hire them at all, and keep the dough

18:03:34 trinque: ben_vulpes: thing's probably like... clim and clos at this point

18:04:05 trinque: and I've postponed working on that thinger indefinitely, reviewing the literature :p

18:04:40 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: just doesn't understand How The Werld Werks (tm)

18:04:45 asciilifeform: trinque: i more or less broke my brain against the wall years ago trying to make clim run decently under modern unixen

18:04:52 ben_vulpes: "time and materials".

18:05:02 asciilifeform: what i ended up getting was slow-as-molasses, almost microshitesque experience

18:05:21 asciilifeform: was told 'go buy allegro'

18:06:46 asciilifeform: so i ended up thinking 'if i'm stuck with a $maxint system where i can't hold a conversation with civilians because no one else has the runtime, may as well requisition 'mathematica'...' - so i did

18:06:51 trinque: and then really, if you're dealing in the modern software "market", wtf is CLIM on an iPhone?

18:07:10 asciilifeform: trinque: even 'c' on iphone is problematic

18:07:18 asciilifeform: you're stuck with the imposed retardation

18:08:59 ben_vulpes: why mathematica?!

18:09:01 asciilifeform: (for folks who never suffered the misfortune of getting involved with ipNohe - if you want your proggy to have a ui, and actually execute, much less get past the censors - you have to write at least a large chunk of it in next^H^H^Hcrapple's abortion of a c-with-classes)

18:10:23 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42&cpage=1#comment-2746

18:10:25 assbot: Loper OS » Thumbs Down for Clojure ... ( http://bit.ly/1N27D3p )

18:10:26 asciilifeform: ^ discussion

18:11:13 phf: mathematica is basically lisp written by a person who understood lisp, but hated lisp

18:11:22 asciilifeform: phf: aha. this is discussed in the logs

18:11:37 phf: naturally :)

18:11:52 asciilifeform: he hated it so much that when he understood that there is no escape from it if you want a sane and fully expressive programming system, he gave it a thick spraypaint coat to hide it

18:11:52 ben_vulpes: link?

18:12:47 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/BUxXH76CYdc/IunywkAxufMJ

18:12:47 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1N27KMb )

18:13:19 asciilifeform: gotta understand that wolfram is a great (in the sense of edison) plagiarist

18:13:31 asciilifeform: as in, expert plagiarist, who is very, very good at what he does.

18:13:55 asciilifeform: (idiot plagiarists plagiarize text; clever ones - concepts; great ones - whole systems, disciplines)

18:14:32 asciilifeform: wolfram tried to steal an entire ~discipline~ - as described in http://bactra.org/reviews/wolfram and elsewhere

18:14:33 assbot: Stephen Wolfram, A New Kind of Science ... ( http://bit.ly/1N27MDR )

18:17:12 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-04-2015#1094237 << another thread re: same.

18:17:12 assbot: Logged on 09-04-2015 21:17:14; ascii_field: wolfram is sui generis. owns a tame publisher, for instance

18:17:44 phf: <mircea_popescu> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255201 << is that soft pr0n on his monitor ? << yes, i didn't actually notice until i posted, probably a 2ch gag

18:17:44 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 04:00:28; phf: http://cs.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2014-01_6/13908191208532.jpg

18:18:00 asciilifeform: ^ not in the book. a very clean photochop gag, aha

18:18:17 *: asciilifeform admits that he had to actually pull the thing off the shelf and check !

18:18:54 trinque: lol, I'd assumed the book was published somewhere with a sense of humor

18:19:14 asciilifeform: trinque: sense of humour, but vga was hardly even a thing yet (certainly in the east)

18:19:21 asciilifeform: so not yet age of electro-pr0n

18:19:32 asciilifeform: (aside from basement vhs)

18:20:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25900 @ 0.0006982 = 18.0834 BTC [-] {3}

18:20:51 phf: well, also "В СССР секса нет"

18:20:56 asciilifeform: (tm) (r)

18:21:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00071676 = 13.7618 BTC [+] {3}

18:22:06 phf: (http://russiapedia.rt.com/on-this-day/july-17/)

18:22:44 asciilifeform: ^ cult meme

18:26:34 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255554 << from what i've been told, the common problem of all 'handlebar-less segway' machines is the muscle strain from the constant effort involved in not falling off the thing while tilting it to steer

18:26:34 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 17:33:16; ben_vulpes: when i go full scammatronics vc bezzle the office campus will be navigated with 'solowheel' 'orbits'

18:26:44 asciilifeform: go stand on top of a basketball, to experience this.

18:26:55 mircea_popescu: so why exactly hated lisp ?

18:27:01 asciilifeform: wolfram?

18:27:12 mircea_popescu: yea

18:27:21 asciilifeform: ask him ?

18:27:28 mircea_popescu: so i have.

18:27:39 asciilifeform: but if i had to hazard a guess, it is because 1) it was great 2) not his

18:27:59 mircea_popescu: this is actually a perfectly legitimate reason to take things from idiots

18:27:59 asciilifeform: herr w has a considerable, imho psychiatric, 'greatness complex'

18:28:09 mircea_popescu: (/me is still unpersuaded anyone involved in lisp to date isn't an idiot)

18:28:11 asciilifeform: but he did not take it from idiots. he took it from smart folks

18:28:18 mircea_popescu: who, rms ?

18:28:22 asciilifeform: mno

18:28:27 asciilifeform: long before rms was famous.

18:28:39 mircea_popescu: greatness doens't get to skip a generation./

18:28:44 mircea_popescu: it's either continued or unextant.

18:29:02 asciilifeform: didn't say that it skipped.

18:29:34 mircea_popescu: well so from whiom then

18:29:57 asciilifeform: the lisp thing (goes far beyond a style of programming language, but concepts like dynamic type and garbage collection and a number of other concepts) started at stanford under mccarthy himself, then mit 'project mac' (nothing to do with apple), then mit ai lab and 'lispmachine'

18:30:03 asciilifeform: then essentially vanished.

18:30:24 mircea_popescu: sooo....

18:30:28 asciilifeform: except that modern-day idiots use the broken-off pieces of it in everything.

18:30:33 mircea_popescu: right ?

18:30:41 asciilifeform: like the visigoths broke apart roman mosaics

18:30:51 mircea_popescu: "bitcoin started with unnamed guy, then essentially vanished. except contemporary idiots using "blockchain technologies""

18:30:58 mircea_popescu: can't blame a man for "stealing" from this lot,

18:31:07 mircea_popescu: or for making it impossible for the lot to exert any further control.

18:31:16 mircea_popescu: it's not theft, it's god's own repossession.

18:31:37 mircea_popescu: ape may steal from man ; but man can not steal from ape. everything man takes from ape is glory.

18:31:37 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: appreciate, there was no way to make lispmachine cheap in 1978

18:31:39 asciilifeform: or even 1988.

18:31:47 asciilifeform: the chemistry was not there.

18:32:04 asciilifeform: just like we do not yet know how to make mass spectrometer cheap

18:32:08 asciilifeform: or electron microscope.

18:32:18 mircea_popescu: myeah.

18:33:28 asciilifeform: today, the apes are nesting in man's burned-out skyscrapers, approximately.

18:34:02 mircea_popescu: this discussion made me intuit a strange sort of reverse-marxism.

18:34:23 mircea_popescu: for everything the common man "has" is a) not his good property and b) acquired by him through some osrt of redistribution or other

18:34:29 asciilifeform: how else.

18:34:32 mircea_popescu: and so everythiong the common man has must be taken from him, right now.

18:34:45 asciilifeform: this was, in all places, a lengthy monologue in one of ayn rand's yarns

18:34:49 asciilifeform: does anyone recall which ?

18:34:59 asciilifeform: pretty sure it was 'atlas'

18:35:04 asciilifeform: but where? can't recall.

18:35:04 mircea_popescu: historically various accidental constraints made the construction of one's ideas vulnerable, and he ended up sharing some part with the mob

18:35:08 mircea_popescu: that thing is going away, rapidly.

18:35:23 mircea_popescu: soon enough, who he thinks shall have, and he only.

18:35:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform was it ?

18:35:43 asciilifeform: it was.

18:35:53 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: caveat: do you recall the experiment with the beaten chimpanzee ?

18:36:08 mircea_popescu: what's next, experiments with seaweed ?

18:36:15 asciilifeform: it was a kind of animal demo of why 'atlas' doesn't ever actually 'shrug'

18:36:25 phf: i thought esotericism and knowledge guilds is how it was done until quite recently?

18:37:12 asciilifeform: phf: the modern-day successor of that is the unspoken gentleman's agreement among programmers to churn out mountains of shit that has to be 'maintained' at tremendous expense forever

18:37:13 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's nonsense.

18:38:05 phf: i have a very romantic view of guilds then, more like b-a, less then hacker news, but then i grew up on romantic literature

18:38:19 asciilifeform: phf: navigator's guild in 'dune' !

18:38:23 asciilifeform: who wouldn't wanna join that.

18:38:35 phf: oh, that's fair

18:39:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nonsense ? be so kind as to demonstrate gedankenexperiment ?

18:39:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and, preferably, something that doesn't make me think of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=19-08-2015#1243116

18:39:43 assbot: Logged on 19-08-2015 00:18:24; asciilifeform: cabbie: 'this ford is a piece of shit. stalled again.' mircea_popescu: 'i have a solution!' cabbie: 'oh???111' mircea_popescu: 'here, have this broomstick.' cabbie: 'how do i drive customers on that, feed my family' mircea_popescu: 'you misunderstand, my good man. you stuff it in your arse.' cabbie: 'and... how does this feed by family?' mircea_popescu: 'no, you sit there with it in.'

18:40:08 asciilifeform: that is to say, some mechanism whereby 'atlas' may 'shrug' without killing himself necessarily.

18:40:31 *: trinque roars with laughter

18:41:01 asciilifeform: 40.0.3 ?!!!

18:41:06 asciilifeform: how many ~are~ there now.

18:43:13 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can conduct an experiment where i get together six poor africans, who then proceed to get drunk and be stupid, and say "lo! this is man" and you'll say "gtfo these niggers out of hewre, they're unrepresentative".

18:43:26 mircea_popescu: how do you figure chimps are representative ? why not go ask the ruminants of the fucking plains.

18:43:37 asciilifeform: but if the experiment is about, say, effects of strontium-90

18:43:42 mircea_popescu: but it is not.

18:44:11 asciilifeform: it is about effects of hunger, among other things. which affects pretty much all mammals similarly, no ?

18:44:32 mircea_popescu: no.

18:44:49 mircea_popescu: and it is not about "the effects". it is abour social organisation, which is supposed to be a culturally normated activity.

18:45:09 mircea_popescu: so no : i am not rawl's "any other man" and so very much less am i some derp's three dozen chimps.

18:45:20 mircea_popescu: for all you know he picked from the wrong chimp country.

18:45:30 asciilifeform: pan troglodytes doesn't seem to differ much from human schoolboy re: organization

18:45:32 asciilifeform: afaik

18:45:55 mircea_popescu: except in places (like shown by this experiment) where he does.

18:46:38 asciilifeform: the invention of 'шарашка' demonstrates that the chimp trick works great on man.

18:46:40 mircea_popescu: for that matter, go, write "a lisp such that any other man would see the wisdom in it and b e able to use it to whatever purpoise without bothering to learn it, or even read his own code"

18:46:47 mircea_popescu: on fucktards, yes.

18:47:02 mircea_popescu: it works great to distinguish chimpalikes aka ciumpalaci.

18:47:08 asciilifeform: nothing works on everyone. not even aids virus

18:47:21 asciilifeform: not even bullet in head (some folks survive!)

18:49:31 mircea_popescu: for that matter, horse medicine works to some degree on some people.

18:50:37 mircea_popescu: yet, to stay in the same anecdotal universe, whatever the шарашка proves about the fundamental worthlessness of "intellectuals", the vory/suka dispute prove that man is still not chimp.

18:51:41 asciilifeform: i mean, i get it, mircea_popescu is with limonov in respecting the anonymous but honorable 'blatnoi' scum over korolev, who created modern rocketry while - yes - a slave

18:52:23 asciilifeform: the product of this recipe is afghanistan and the pashtuns

18:52:34 asciilifeform: (orlov is somewhat fixated on them as 'ideal')

18:54:08 asciilifeform: whatever else 'vory' might do, notice how they don't ever appear to build orbital launchers ?

18:54:26 asciilifeform: or thermonuke? or even create so much as a bulldozer ?

18:55:22 asciilifeform: there was an interesting piece in some rag or other, a few weeks ago (?) re: mexican mafia stealing and enslaving white engineers to build their infrastructure

18:55:37 asciilifeform: similar cases were heard of during the chechen wars

18:56:14 asciilifeform: (and today from 'isis', though it is difficult from where i stand to get anything like an honest picture of the latter)

18:56:56 asciilifeform: or chingis khan 'stealing' chinese scholars...

18:57:25 asciilifeform: if, as mircea_popescu appears to suggest, chingis khan is the 'luxury model' of human, and everybody else is 'man lite version', why does the khan have to enslave engineers ?

18:59:59 trinque: perhaps it's a question like "why doesn't the queen bee have to haul all this pollen?"

19:00:31 asciilifeform: the queen bee has a biological function.

19:00:54 trinque: and wouldn't a human leader also be said to have a biological function?

19:01:13 trinque: like a social supernode which organizes the activity of other nodes

19:01:18 asciilifeform: it is not clear to me that the fella sitting in ru prison barrack who does not a lick of work, other than organizing circle of thugs to squeeze 2x the normative quota from the poor schmucks, serves a purpose

19:01:21 asciilifeform: any more than a tumour.

19:01:34 trinque: sure but that'd be maybe a degenerate case of the thing

19:02:35 gernika: mircea_popescu can I snag a eulora account?

19:03:33 asciilifeform: trinque: btw it was not clear to the folks who ran the camps, that this naturally-occurring system of hierarchy was a net plus re: net tonnage from the mines. hence the 'vory/suka wars' mircea_popescu referenced, a famous case where su authorities tried to monkey with the 'org chart'

19:04:22 asciilifeform: depending on who you ask - it worked. or didn't.

19:05:13 asciilifeform: (the most notable successes, iirc, were when they hogtied 'blatnoi' leaders and methodically shipped them to distant camps where they would be lowered into pederasty immediately, with all necessary force)

19:06:28 asciilifeform: there were also experiments in imprisoning them together in specially-designated zones where they would be permitted to rapidly kill off one another.

19:07:01 danielpbarron: gernika, join #eulora

19:09:38 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: how tyrannical /were/ the Symbolics licenses?

19:09:54 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: they were ordinary for the time

19:10:12 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'this is the source, no you may not show it to folks who have not bought'

19:10:21 ben_vulpes: sounds eminently reasonable.

19:10:25 asciilifeform: ^ not that it would have done a 'freeloader' much good

19:10:30 asciilifeform: as he doesn't have the hardware

19:10:52 asciilifeform: recall, this was still the tail end of the era where software was just this thing that came with hardware

19:10:58 asciilifeform: like wheels come with a car

19:11:23 ben_vulpes: and the symbolics machines could run c as we

19:11:28 asciilifeform: not only

19:11:34 ben_vulpes: as well*, right? many other languages too.

19:11:35 asciilifeform: even fortran, ada, pascal

19:11:47 asciilifeform: and all could share data structures, even.

19:11:59 asciilifeform: and use the runtime debuggability and repairability (yes)

19:12:20 asciilifeform: ^ yes, you could, potentially, repair and ~uncrash~ a crashed process

19:12:36 *: ben_vulpes wonders at the notion of runtime debuggability of c-through-lisp

19:12:47 asciilifeform: the trick is that it wasn't c-on-cmachine

19:12:57 ben_vulpes: but c in lispm

19:13:01 asciilifeform: but remained internally aware of intended datatypes

19:13:02 asciilifeform: and bounds

19:13:26 asciilifeform: afaik there were not many cases of c proggies being used in practice on lispm

19:13:47 asciilifeform: it was more of a thing one might want to do if really need to use a page from 'numerical recipes in c' verbatim in a hurry, etc.

19:14:21 asciilifeform: using c on lispm did not win you anything in any other case. it is rather like starting a campfire on the floor of your kitchen

19:14:33 ben_vulpes: myeah, i can see that. how would it have handled modern nixy proggies?

19:14:37 asciilifeform: yes, if you provisioned for this, poured concrete floor - you can.

19:14:58 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: afaik no one was ever dumb enough to demand this.

19:15:19 asciilifeform: it is like asking to not only have campfire, but mammoth hunt, in the kitchen.

19:16:15 asciilifeform: lispm was only possible because 'consumers have come to expect' was not fully a thing yet.

19:18:50 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i also can't help but laugh a bit at the phrase 'modern nixy proggies' - we're sorta stuck in 1968 state of the art...

19:19:12 asciilifeform: and talking about how nifty it would be to get 1978 state of the art.

19:19:56 asciilifeform: how come nobody asks how well 1958 state of the art would handle on unix ? the batch proggies, on punched cardboard ?

19:20:13 ben_vulpes: okay okay!

19:22:47 asciilifeform: btw, speaking of software licenses, anyone recall mircea_popescu's anarchist license ?

19:23:05 asciilifeform: 'no you may not use this code, except if you piss on law'

19:23:46 asciilifeform: i recently thought of an equally-ceremonial 'software license'. would go roughly like this,

19:25:49 asciilifeform: 'this program may be redistributed provided that 1) this notice and 2) the original copy of $program, with my pgp signature thereof - are included; and any changes you made to $program must be represented in the form of a vdiff patch signed with a pgp key registered in the Web of Trust.'

19:26:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3488 @ 0.00069961 = 2.4402 BTC [-]

19:27:24 asciilifeform: if anyone here has the muscles to turn this concoction into a formula which might threaten to work in traditional courts, in some major country - go right ahead.

19:27:27 asciilifeform: would be interesting to see.

19:29:11 ben_vulpes: nah, we don't traditional courts.

19:29:28 asciilifeform: (on a sane planet, you won't need lawsuits to enforce this. no reasonable person will run code that doesn't have a wot signature)

19:29:38 ben_vulpes: right, and there's why.

19:29:48 ben_vulpes: the wot solves another problem.

19:29:51 asciilifeform: but it would be an interesting ceremonial flag, in the spirit of mircea_popescu's license thing.

19:30:31 ben_vulpes: perhaps "you may not share your patches with anyone else who does not have a license for my original copy of $p"

19:30:49 ben_vulpes: as, of course, verified by your signing a license to their key.

19:30:57 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: this is asking for mountains of 'mother may i' spamola

19:31:06 ben_vulpes: howso?

19:31:07 asciilifeform: it only makes sense if folks are paying.

19:31:27 asciilifeform: ~i~ don't have time to sit and issue 'licenses' to 10,000,000 schmucks

19:31:36 ben_vulpes: no but if they pay.

19:31:46 asciilifeform: but nobody's paying me.

19:31:55 asciilifeform: not for anything interesting, at any rate

19:31:59 ben_vulpes: you've not made anything worth paying for, then.

19:32:05 asciilifeform: evidently.

19:33:03 ben_vulpes: market, admittedly, is /tiny/.

19:33:03 asciilifeform: perhaps ben_vulpes can become the hero who makes that unicorn, a software worth paying for..

19:33:16 ben_vulpes: oh it's even harder than that, asciilifeform

19:33:23 ben_vulpes: it has to be commercially viable in this wot.

19:34:20 ben_vulpes: regarding the "may i" spamola, you could issue a license to a trivially-generated pubkey.

19:34:34 ben_vulpes: degenerate case.

19:34:36 asciilifeform: but what's that get me ?

19:34:51 ben_vulpes: some sort of parity with extant licensing schemes.

19:35:00 asciilifeform: parity ?!!

19:35:06 ben_vulpes: wrong word!

19:35:12 *: ben_vulpes to food

19:35:24 asciilifeform: i mean, why would i want to do ~any~ per-user work in distributing something ~for free~ ?!

19:35:43 asciilifeform: it'd be like those crackpot bums who stand on street corners and beg folks to take their self-published 'book'

19:36:00 trinque: that speaks more to the "for free" than to the work, doesn't it?

19:36:12 asciilifeform: trinque: aha

19:36:33 asciilifeform: trinque: but we have yet to establish that there is or could be such a thing as software that is genuinely worth paying for

19:37:04 asciilifeform: if there is, ~i~ certainly am not blessed with the gift of crapping it out

19:37:13 asciilifeform: and wouldn't know anything useful to add

19:37:17 asciilifeform: to the conversation

19:37:26 asciilifeform: !s pay for sunlight

19:37:27 assbot: 0 results for 'pay for sunlight' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pay+for+sunlight

19:37:31 asciilifeform: hm.

19:38:04 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=22-05-2015#1143414 , http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=22-05-2015#1143413

19:38:04 assbot: Logged on 22-05-2015 06:54:48; mircea_popescu: the idea here being that people wouldn't pay for a sane os for the same reason they won't payfor the sun.

19:38:04 assbot: Logged on 22-05-2015 06:54:23; mircea_popescu: mkay. lemme explain something about markets to you. the sun is infinitely valuable, to the exclusion of all else. nobody (tm) would consider paying for it, and in no case would they pay anything close to fair value (why this is so should be thermodynamically obvious). meanwhile, ipads have no utility and go for hundreds by the million. on top of them, jackpot machine simulations sell for more $$$.

19:38:34 trinque: could instead decide that you'll use your software powers to cynically crap out anything with a price tag.

19:38:48 trinque: meanwhile inside the company building tools to make the crapping ever easier

19:38:50 asciilifeform: that's sorta what people do now

19:38:53 trinque: yep.

19:39:03 asciilifeform: it isn't especially interesting to talk about, imho

19:39:33 trinque: well, that seems to be the only way to amass the capital to do interesting things, at least from where I sit.

19:39:34 asciilifeform: and as i gather, most of the folks involved on anything but the ultra-successful 'lottery winner' end of it, want out.

19:40:09 danielpbarron: asciilifeform> perhaps ben_vulpes can become the hero who makes that unicorn, a software worth paying for.. << Eulora bots.

19:40:20 asciilifeform: reason being http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255331

19:40:20 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 14:17:13; mircea_popescu: and yes, the "scam money rots your brain" think is also a very powerful theory.

19:40:24 phf: graham and naggum are probably not the best examples of lispers. graham wrote cgi scripts for clisp in vi and had unhealthy obsession with macros, did a web startup and sold it at the right time. naggum if he was a little bit dumber would've just been a kook, considering his completely insane angry rants. (and i learned a lot from naggum, but i don't think the manner of his death was a surprise)

19:40:43 phf: there's greenblatt, tom knight, david moon, daniel weinreb, guy steele, peter norvig, abelson&sussman, jack holloway. stallman and minsky. not to mention cracauer, eller, fahlman, maclachlan, rme, ron garret of the later people that i know of, tons of people i'm forgetting.

19:40:49 trinque: every business on earth needs tools to classify and count their things, and to answer useful questions with this information.

19:40:55 trinque: and the tools are all shit

19:40:56 phf: but if the argument is really reduced to воры/суки then guys above are idiots, because иван иванычи and have all the intelligentsia deficiencies

19:41:19 trinque: I could see a scheme where you make a general solution to that problem which you do not sell.

19:41:25 trinque: you derive specific solutions and sell those

19:41:36 asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu has a marked tendency to go with lenin's 'intelligentsia is not the nation's head but its arsehole'

19:42:24 asciilifeform: trinque: go and sell 'it' if it doesn't read&write microshit excel format. i'll watch.

19:42:42 trinque: why can't it?

19:43:18 asciilifeform: trinque: aha, it can ?! now you're married to microshit. because there is no way of reliably speaking the format in any and all cases except by linking their libs

19:43:27 asciilifeform: and using their dev environment and joke of an os.

19:43:34 asciilifeform: 'consumer has come to expect !!'

19:43:38 trinque: yeah but you're thinking like a scientist

19:43:48 trinque: this needs no perfect solution to be better than what's available

19:44:09 trinque: just "I can count all my damn beakless chickens" and so on

19:44:21 trinque: and it farts out reports I give to my accountant

19:44:26 asciilifeform: trinque: it isn't about 'perfect' but about eschewing pederasty.

19:45:06 trinque: right, you're a scientist. meanwhile I'd love to have the market on traffic cones cornered.

19:45:14 asciilifeform: go, corner.

19:45:56 asciilifeform: usually you find that there is a reason why nobody gets to be 'next microshit' every year.

19:46:13 asciilifeform: same reason you won't get to be 'the next exxon'

19:46:18 asciilifeform: or 'next halliburton'

19:46:19 trinque: ah but who wants to be that big and bloated

19:46:28 trinque: can make a fine pile for yourself in some niche nobody ever heard of

19:46:35 asciilifeform: go, make

19:48:13 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu potentially interesting observation: dulap has been ~50 blocks behind semi-permanently since reboot. in as far as i can tell, it is not mainly from 'blackholing' but due to cpu starvation! on account of phuctor re-grinding the product...!

19:48:13 gribble: The operation succeeded.

19:51:06 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255852 << i will let mircea_popescu explain himself, by himself, but iirc this thread began long ago with the mention of an infamous paper, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/codemonkey.pdf (mirror)

19:51:06 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 19:40:56; phf: but if the argument is really reduced to воры/суки then guys above are idiots, because иван иванычи and have all the intelligentsia deficiencies

19:51:33 asciilifeform: 'Group Responses to Specially Skilled Individuals in a Macaca fascicularis Group' (Stammbach 1988)

19:51:47 asciilifeform: ^ not even re: chimps! funny how forgot this

19:52:32 mod6: asciilifeform: hey, qq: are you going to post the modified vdiff.sh (creation of vpatch w/o timestamps) to the ml, or will it be included with your next submission of the full working solution?

19:52:42 asciilifeform: mod6: it was posted!

19:52:49 mod6: Oh it was?!

19:52:52 *: mod6 looks

19:53:24 asciilifeform: phf: the animals were placed in a room where there was a set of levers, which, if pulled correctly, would dispense food. result was that, at any given time, a handful learned to pull the lever, but would not get to eat the treats. instead, would be beaten for non-performance by the others if they stopped.

19:53:54 asciilifeform: phf: the paper became a 'viral meme' and nicknamed 'codemonkey paper'

19:54:26 asciilifeform: on account of the resemblance to human programmers, engineers, and other 'slave artisans' who build civilization but are rarely seen in mercedes

19:55:05 mod6: so i see, obv., the one that was submitted with The Full Orchestra, but i don't see your updated one that looks like:

19:55:08 mod6: #!/bin/bash

19:55:11 mod6: diff -uNr \$1 \$2 | awk 'm = /^(---|\+\+\+)/{s="sha512sum \"" \$2 "\" 2>/dev/null " | getline x; if (s) { split(x, a, " "); o = a[1]; } else {o = "false";} print \$1 " " \$2 " " o} !m { print \$0 }'

19:55:36 mod6: bah, well disregard the above -- as this came from my orc.sh script with escaped shell vars, but you get the point i think.

19:56:05 phf: иваныч суконах у мартышек то все как у человеков

19:57:19 asciilifeform: mod6 is right, i think

19:57:25 asciilifeform: it was never formally posted with signature.

19:57:39 asciilifeform: go figure.

19:57:59 ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255824 << no per-user work, just a single pubkey to which anyone could find the corresponding privkey

19:57:59 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 19:35:24; asciilifeform: i mean, why would i want to do ~any~ per-user work in distributing something ~for free~ ?!

19:58:02 ben_vulpes: a la deedbot

19:58:08 phf: by the way that script above needs a close i.e. ... if (s) { close(s); ...

19:58:35 punkman: asciilifeform: trinque: go and sell 'it' if it doesn't read&write microshit excel format. i'll watch. << I've written lots of these, it's called .csv

19:58:45 phf: i think gnu awk closes implicitly but a bsd one keeps the fd's open and eventually runs into open file limits

19:58:54 asciilifeform: punkman: not same thing

19:59:08 asciilifeform: punkman: not if 'customer who expects' shows up with a microshit document with formatting, etc.

19:59:20 asciilifeform: and you know ~exactly~ what i mean

19:59:25 punkman: asciilifeform: customer can learn to export csv or fuck off most of the time

19:59:28 trinque: ^

19:59:37 asciilifeform: aha so why not also ask him to bring s-expression or fuck off

19:59:43 asciilifeform: and before long, you're naggum

19:59:47 mod6: I'm currently working on the SoBA to close out the month, would like to point at the vdiff.sh that creats w/o timestamps in the document. Only reason that I bring it up. Thanks for taking a look. Wasn't sure if I missed it somehow.

19:59:47 asciilifeform: and working on ulcer

20:00:15 trinque: because the CSV one requires him no work but to change the save-as type, or w/e

20:00:30 punkman: if excel did s-expr, sure why not

20:00:51 trinque: also this is a matter of sales, not education

20:00:57 ben_vulpes: sometimes one goes to a cafe to meet a customer instead of demanding they come to ones office.

20:01:24 asciilifeform: mod6 et al: http://dpaste.com/1PHPHRE.txt

20:01:25 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KtQNIS )

20:01:27 asciilifeform: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

20:01:35 trinque: neat

20:01:42 trinque: deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/1PHPHRE.txt

20:01:43 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KtQNIS )

20:01:43 deedbot-: accepted: 1

20:01:56 punkman: on a similar note, customer asks for mongodb, but "I used sqlite because you are retarded"

20:02:13 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255910 <<< this is not true.

20:02:13 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 20:00:15; trinque: because the CSV one requires him no work but to change the save-as type, or w/e

20:02:15 asciilifeform: and you know it.

20:02:35 asciilifeform: 'i want the boldface, italics, and cat pictures retained !!!1111'

20:02:51 asciilifeform: see also the 'gimp and photoshop' thread from a few wks ago.

20:03:00 ben_vulpes: this is rank nonsense.

20:03:07 ben_vulpes: go talk to the cfo about the cat pictures.

20:03:11 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=19-08-2015#1243080

20:03:11 assbot: Logged on 19-08-2015 00:13:22; asciilifeform: that does not work with gimp.

20:03:22 asciilifeform: my point is that the craftsman DOES NOT GET TO REDEFINE THE JOB

20:03:26 trinque: I gotta run for a bit unfortunately.

20:03:31 trinque: but the consultant does.

20:03:34 asciilifeform: not unless the customer agrees.

20:03:53 asciilifeform: this ends in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=19-08-2015#1243116 .

20:03:53 assbot: Logged on 19-08-2015 00:18:24; asciilifeform: cabbie: 'this ford is a piece of shit. stalled again.' mircea_popescu: 'i have a solution!' cabbie: 'oh???111' mircea_popescu: 'here, have this broomstick.' cabbie: 'how do i drive customers on that, feed my family' mircea_popescu: 'you misunderstand, my good man. you stuff it in your arse.' cabbie: 'and... how does this feed by family?' mircea_popescu: 'no, you sit there with it in.'

20:03:58 mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6 et al: http://dpaste.com/1PHPHRE.txt << ok thanks, I can just point at the deedbot submission then.

20:03:59 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KtQNIS )

20:04:18 asciilifeform: mod6: it will be part of the formal release of 'v'. but for now, can use this.

20:04:21 ben_vulpes: in a healthy relationship, the consultant keeps the customer from making bad decisions in areas in which the customer has no business making decisions.

20:04:23 asciilifeform: vdiff will not change.

20:04:28 mod6: asciilifeform: sounds good. thanks for doing that.

20:04:43 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: take me to this planet of 'healthy relationships.'

20:04:45 mod6: trinque: just have to wait until next block before it shows up in the deedbot.org list?

20:04:49 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: vdiff is 0k!

20:05:05 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: can't, you'd poison 'em.

20:05:10 asciilifeform: prolly

20:05:18 trinque: mod6: shall pop out at the next hour

20:05:21 asciilifeform: and they won't even be able to eat my corpse, wrong-chirality proteins

20:05:28 mod6: trinque: fantastic. thanks.

20:05:29 trinque: it's rather dumb, doesn't watch for blocks in the log, though that'd be nice

20:06:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9192 @ 0.0007193 = 6.6118 BTC [+]

20:06:30 mod6: this thing has a cool 0x00FF00 && 0x000000 website

20:07:15 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255945 << lol, how big did ben_vulpes think it to be ?

20:07:15 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 20:04:49; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: vdiff is 0k!

20:07:21 mod6: 'solid green' ?!

20:07:22 punkman: trinque: would deedbot notice a bundle tx that got reorg'd out of main chain?

20:07:28 ben_vulpes: 0K, i mean.

20:07:43 ben_vulpes: eg 'fully annealed'

20:07:44 asciilifeform: l0l

20:07:57 *: mod6 ribs trinque a bit :D

20:07:58 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: actually don't be so sure. it is almost certainly possible to shorten it.

20:08:10 ben_vulpes: call it 3K then.

20:08:16 asciilifeform: approximately.

20:08:30 phf: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: take me to this planet of 'healthy relationships.' << i am equally confused by this position. non serviam doesn't necessarily need to translate to its extreme expression. if you're that figured out how to push the lever, i think the last option that you can possibly have is to keep pushing the lever for others. once you accept it to its logical conclusion, are you not free to do as you please?

20:08:38 trinque: mod6: I LIKE GREEN OK?

20:08:40 trinque: lol

20:08:42 phf: *that monkey

20:08:48 *: trinque departs for a bit

20:09:09 asciilifeform: phf: mircea_popescu seems to suggest that if korolev, etc. were real men, they would have killed themselves instead of serving the hated master.

20:09:18 mod6: lol, the css 'solid green', appears slightly different tone than 0x00FF00 on thebitcoin.foundation, or is it just my eldery eyes?

20:10:18 phf: sure, korolev was tested by that limit, and i'm not in his position, so i can't say "сука буду i've offed myself", but when the choice is between doing csv and sexp for a customer..

20:10:35 asciilifeform: it is almost always more like csv vs sexp.

20:10:39 mod6: anyway, not that it need be the same. just curious.

20:10:45 asciilifeform: at least, at individual steps of the way.

20:11:17 asciilifeform: and it also turns out that for some reason the folks who are very excellent at non serviam - don't program. (napoleon's work in geometry notwithstanding...)

20:12:44 asciilifeform: for instance, iirc mircea_popescu was also pretty handy at mathematics as a young man. but notice that we do not come here to learn mathematics from him.

20:13:04 asciilifeform: but instead other things.

20:13:52 ben_vulpes: i do not get the 'non serviam' routine. we all serve the khan.

20:14:23 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the correct setting for the gedankenexperiment is 'serve usg or take the cyanide'

20:14:43 asciilifeform: or, more appropriately to the case at hand, 'program pc or don't program'

20:14:48 ben_vulpes: phf: holy hell it runs

20:14:56 phf: :>

20:15:06 asciilifeform: what runs..?

20:15:10 *: phf bows

20:15:17 *: ben_vulpes claps

20:17:11 asciilifeform: i suspect that folks who are child prodigies at programming people (esp. programming the female of the species) do not usually end up having the patience to seriously deal with machines

20:17:37 asciilifeform: considering how the latter is almost inescapably a less-rewarding affair than the former

20:18:06 asciilifeform: one does not become an artisan 'from a good life', as some kind of voluntary choice, imho

20:22:06 asciilifeform: erwin schrodinger, famously, did his physics almost as just a thing to fill the time between random fucks. but he was not enough 'non serviam' nietzschean superman to avoid sucking hitler's cock (unsuccessfully !!) and having to run for his life

20:22:38 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=26-05-2015#1145721 << thread

20:22:38 assbot: Logged on 26-05-2015 17:45:33; ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Miscellany:Confession_to_the_F%C3%BChrer << schrödinger's shameful letter. english.

20:22:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11350 @ 0.00071112 = 8.0712 BTC [-]

20:24:57 phf: bakunin has equally shameful confessions written to nicholas i

20:25:21 asciilifeform: phf: iirc this began as a thread about r. ulbricht's shameful plea for mercy to the judge

20:25:50 phf: ah

20:27:12 phf: well, in the case ulbricht his plea was dumb, the point which you guys consistently drive in other cases

20:28:14 asciilifeform: there is a long history of tales re: folks having conversations with (personified) Death, and asking her 'not now, why me, ...' etc

20:28:27 asciilifeform: i see the ulbricht plea, and schrodinger's, etc. as similar

20:28:36 asciilifeform: rather than any kind of rational undertaking

20:29:15 phf: right, also same point at which aaronsw chose to off himself

20:29:21 asciilifeform: it is why the fact that (in american courts) the plea never really ~works~ does not affect its popularity

20:30:06 asciilifeform: it is just something people ~do~, like the boyars impaled by ivan iv famously screaming 'god save the tsar' as their arses stretched

20:30:56 phf: no atheists in foxholes and all that

20:33:38 asciilifeform: since we're on the subject, i do not regard it as a proven fact that schwartz tied the rope by himself

20:41:32 gernika: !rate phf 2 got Eulora working on McOs

20:41:32 assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/1aa82966741c75a7

20:43:02 mircea_popescu: !rated gernika

20:43:02 assbot: You rated user gernika on 04-Jul-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: New blood..

20:43:25 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you measure exactly how much it is impacted ?

20:47:31 mod6: ;;later tell davout You did test out rotor w/TEST2 or stator this month right? Or did I mis-remember that?

20:47:32 gribble: The operation succeeded.

20:48:39 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i read it b4. iirc we had it in chan even

20:51:03 mod6: ;;later tell punkman You did test out rotor w/TEST2 or stator this month right? Or did I mis-remember that?

20:51:03 gribble: The operation succeeded.

20:51:25 mod6: ;;later tell jurov You did test out rotor w/TEST2 or stator this month right? Or did I mis-remember that?

20:51:26 gribble: The operation succeeded.

20:51:44 mod6: <--- bad memory

20:52:10 jurov: no i was too busy and then on afk vacation

20:52:26 mod6: ah. ok. np. thanks!

20:52:29 mod6: how's it goin anywya?

20:53:41 punkman: mod6: I tested stator on Mint. didn't leave it running for full sync though

20:53:56 mod6: punkman: hey! glad i asked. thanks :]

20:54:14 mod6: i guess i do remember this now.

20:55:43 mod6: chettty & mircea_popescu: btw, eulora seems to be functioning well since changes. although, i don't use any automation in there. just good ole hard rock minin' by hand. with a mule^H^H^H^Himproved pickaxe.

20:56:06 mod6: punkman: any specfic version of mint?

21:03:27 trinque: punkman: I have not handled that case. As I understand it, transactions would then go back into the mempool for inclusion in a subsequent block.

21:04:02 trinque: I could run over all previous records at some long-ish interval and see whether that occurred, update db accordingly.

21:04:54 mod6: ;;later tell danielpbarron You did test out rotor w/TEST2 or stator this month right? Or did I mis-remember that?

21:04:54 gribble: The operation succeeded.

21:05:13 punkman: mod6: mint 13-14 or so

21:05:34 mod6: jaja

21:06:04 danielpbarron: i made a binary but i didn't execute it

21:06:06 mod6: i'll put that in there. "Linux Mint, 13-14ish." :P

21:06:34 mod6: danielpbarron: still have it? try to fire it up see if it it rotates.

21:07:22 trinque: mine rotates nicely

21:07:27 trinque: with the LC_ALL=C

21:08:09 mod6: yup, that's required on every system that i've encountered when built with the `rotor'.

21:08:30 danielpbarron: what does it mean to rotate?

21:08:42 mod6: just see if you can get it to start up and sync some blox

21:08:59 danielpbarron: Bitcoin version 0.5.4-beta << I'm currently running this, made with the rotor instructions

21:09:21 mod6: this should do the trick: `LC_ALL=C ./bitcoind -myip= -addnode= &`

21:09:23 danielpbarron: and it is up to height=281399

21:09:55 mod6: ah, ok. was it a handrolled build or stator?

21:10:01 danielpbarron: stator

21:10:12 punkman: anyone try the final debug_sanity_part1 patch?

21:10:16 mod6: but built with rotor, cool. what OS?

21:10:28 danielpbarron: gentoo made with trinque's script

21:10:33 mod6: punkman: naw, i haevn't had a chance yet. i'll get to it though, it's on my list.

21:10:51 mod6: danielpbarron: ah neat. kthx

21:10:55 punkman: I might work on part2 this week

21:11:07 mod6: punkman: ah, cool.

21:11:53 punkman: also thinking of making a fork that doesn't mine/wallet

21:15:43 trinque: mod6: http://deedbot.org/deed-2015-08-29-20-01-42.txt

21:15:44 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1fNQsUw )

21:16:13 *: mod6 looks

21:16:29 mod6: ah, gravy, thanks.

21:16:31 trinque: np

21:22:23 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1256010 << if you specify what exactly ought to be measured, i might be able to do it

21:22:23 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 20:43:25; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you measure exactly how much it is impacted ?

21:22:38 asciilifeform: recall that we don't exactly have a deterministic system here.

21:22:58 asciilifeform: or even a quantifiably-stochastic one

21:24:26 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1256042 << please see http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255123 + http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255874

21:24:26 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 21:09:21; mod6: this should do the trick: `LC_ALL=C ./bitcoind -myip= -addnode= &`

21:24:26 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 02:22:08; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: dulap rebooted today for no reason known to me.

21:24:26 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 19:48:13; asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu potentially interesting observation: dulap has been ~50 blocks behind semi-permanently since reboot. in as far as i can tell, it is not mainly from 'blackholing' but due to cpu starvation! on account of phuctor re-grinding the product...!

21:27:47 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu dulap is a quad-core machine. current 'werker' (phuctor) uses strictly a single core, at the maximum. but what is happening appears to be bus cycle starvation (shared cores share a cache; and at any rate all processes share a single ram bus)

21:27:48 gribble: The operation succeeded.

21:29:05 punkman: why shit where phuctor eats?

21:29:21 asciilifeform: punkman: because hosting is very expensive.

21:29:38 asciilifeform: and neither phuctor nor therealbitcoin bring in any revenue

21:29:58 asciilifeform: phuctor and the node are run as a public service.

21:30:23 asciilifeform: for no especially good reason other than that i felt like it, and mircea_popescu saw it fit to supply a machine (via subcontractor) out of his own (for now) pocket

21:30:55 asciilifeform: this is YET AGAIN the 'can't charge for sunlight' thing !!

21:31:09 asciilifeform: there is no way in heaven or hell that either of those things could ever pay for itself.

21:31:35 asciilifeform: kinda like a lighthouse.

21:31:48 asciilifeform: can't exactly charge the ships, for the light.

21:32:04 trinque: seems science requires a patron, or at least greatly benefits from one.

21:33:03 asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu had not donated the cpu cycles, the thing would still be sitting on aws and being essentially useless

21:33:58 asciilifeform: i, on the other hand, donated my spare time, of which i don't actually have very much.

21:34:23 asciilifeform: (contrary to what some may think.)

21:34:46 asciilifeform: (not all spare time is created equal. i'm both free from paying work AND awake enough to program, for perhaps a few hours a month!)

21:35:12 *: asciilifeform fantasizes about 'sleep ad libitum' for a reason. he has a ~26 hour circadian rhythm.

21:37:01 asciilifeform: punkman: since you asked, it also doesn't hurt to point out that both phuctor and the node MUST HAVE reasonably-cpu-and-ram-rich PHYSICAL machine.

21:37:07 asciilifeform: no virtualized crapolade.

21:37:33 asciilifeform: experimentally demonstrated that neither runs ADEQUATELY (much less with any degree of trust!) without this condition being met.

21:38:00 asciilifeform: in fact, phuctor is presently NOT getting enough oxygen to live, as per http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255136

21:38:00 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 02:47:55; mircea_popescu: i think the latter kids don't really grok this "don't reboot machine " thing

21:38:44 asciilifeform: it really needs a box with internal battery backup and ~30 minute hardware warning on powerfail.

21:39:08 asciilifeform: that or a civilized data center with battery AND diesel

21:39:41 trinque: ^ that point about the kids these days and rebooting, bleh. no kidding.

21:39:42 asciilifeform: all of this could be had, but FOR A PRICE

21:39:50 asciilifeform: and the budget is approx. $0.

21:39:53 trinque: oh ruby just leaks memory, of course it does

21:40:29 asciilifeform: see http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255140 + http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255141

21:40:29 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 02:48:54; mircea_popescu: dulap may be the latest piece of software in actual use that doesn't actually benefit from periodic rebooting

21:40:29 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 02:49:45; asciilifeform: not only does it not, but it absolutely impossible to do anything re: the running product having to be recalculated on warmup without 1) increasing complexity 25x 2) slowing down processing palpably

21:41:11 trinque: yeah, you want a ton of fast RAM, I'd assume, and not want to be writing to disk constantly

21:41:16 asciilifeform: understand, the running-product is an integer, presently ~1GByte in size.

21:41:18 mircea_popescu: cool mod6

21:41:27 asciilifeform: it changes ENTIRELY every single time a modulus is processed !

21:41:27 mircea_popescu: meanwhile grass is desperately needed.

21:41:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "how much cpu does it have available while floating 50 blocks behind"

21:42:21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: strictly cpu cycles? the answer depends on whether anyone is querying the db

21:42:27 asciilifeform: hence, from 75% to 0

21:43:54 mircea_popescu: i dunno what the proper item to measure is.

21:44:03 mircea_popescu: perhaps it actually is l1 cache access

21:44:26 mircea_popescu: but in no small part (to answer punkman's q) this experiment is interesting to me specifically to see how well things do in cramped spaces.

21:45:00 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform also im pretty sure power didn't actually fail. derpy kids doing things to fix things etc.

21:46:52 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/Z6OcuYW4b2iz2k4ombFqz30P_1280.jpg

21:46:54 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1hnWegu )

21:54:41 trinque: !up Pierre_Rochard

21:54:44 trinque: !up gabriel_laddel

21:55:08 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1256109 << what exactly is meant by this ??

21:55:08 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 21:45:00; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform also im pretty sure power didn't actually fail. derpy kids doing things to fix things etc.

21:55:29 asciilifeform: all i know is that the fucking box lost mains power.

21:55:50 asciilifeform: whether because devils pulled cable out of my box individually, or whole rack, or entire warehouse - i cannot know

21:56:48 mircea_popescu: mmm i thought it was rebooted.

21:56:59 asciilifeform: there is no way to do this cleanly without root pw.

21:57:04 asciilifeform: thinkaboutit

21:57:43 mircea_popescu: kvm

21:57:45 asciilifeform: Tue Aug 25 23:17 - crash (2+16:29)

21:57:54 asciilifeform: reboot system boot 2.6.32-431.el6.x Fri Aug 28 15:47 - 18:00 (1+02:12)

21:58:55 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1256108 << empirically, it does very poorly. though, interestingly, i am reading the log now and may have discovered another force at work

21:58:55 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 21:44:26; mircea_popescu: but in no small part (to answer punkman's q) this experiment is interesting to me specifically to see how well things do in cramped spaces.

21:59:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: node often fails to process incoming messages in a timely manner, at heavy load, and possibly ends up shitlisted

21:59:58 asciilifeform: this is an entirely separate kind of resource starvation from 'takes too long to verify blocks'

22:00:46 asciilifeform: essentially the node ddos issue was never really solved

22:00:53 asciilifeform: only swept under carpet

22:01:25 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not kvm either!!!

22:01:33 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: still need the root login to CLEANLY reboot the machine

22:01:39 asciilifeform: and you will notice that no such thing happened

22:01:52 asciilifeform: 'crash' means that there was no proper shutdown.

22:02:23 asciilifeform: this means one of two things: a) thermal breaker b) mains current lost

22:03:58 mod6: ive got grass

22:04:07 mod6: lemme check the horde

22:04:45 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nothing suggestive of thermal overload in the logs, either

22:04:54 asciilifeform: (thing does appear to have sensors)

22:05:47 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: perhaps you understand now why the alarm. there is NO LEGIT REASON for that thing to ever cycle.

22:05:53 jurov: or case resonates with passing trains

22:05:58 jurov: (happened irl)

22:06:08 asciilifeform: many things happened irl.

22:07:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i strongly suspect that if it were somehow the case that fraudsters goes down for weeks-to-a-month every time it loses power, it would also lose power with some regularity...

22:08:13 asciilifeform: monkeys will try to pull out the cable, and the only solution is a man with an axe standing there and chopping their hands off, every time.

22:08:51 asciilifeform: i am reminded of the old thread re: mpex disk drives.

22:12:36 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even if you were speaking of the kind of kvm which has a power relay, it remains to be asked WHAT KIND OF TARD would flip the relay on a customer's box without written permission

22:13:15 asciilifeform: it is only by a stroke of luck that therealbitcoin did not perma-wedge from corrupt db, also.

22:13:43 asciilifeform: ^ and this may even have been the objective of the switch-flipping monkey

22:14:46 asciilifeform: if this were a project with an actual budget, and the machine were colocated, i would include a lithium-cell-powered MAINS LOGGER in there. and then WELD IT SHUT with own hands

22:15:35 asciilifeform: as it is, it eats table scraps, yes.

22:15:50 jurov: !s bisp

22:15:50 assbot: 11 results for 'bisp' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bisp

22:16:17 asciilifeform: jurov: this ~was~ the inaugural 'bisp' machine, recall.

22:16:31 jurov: yea, was going to write that exactly

22:17:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is paying somebody a pretty penny for that thing. and i am coming to think that he is getting scammed.

22:17:26 asciilifeform: i'm not really getting scammed because i personally did not pay.

22:17:35 asciilifeform: gift horse.

22:17:59 asciilifeform: but the legs are coming off this horse.

22:18:27 asciilifeform: and every time i 'park' it, when i come back its starfish is full of boulders

22:20:44 gabriel_laddel: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1255663 << see Bill Gosper

22:20:44 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 18:28:39; mircea_popescu: greatness doens't get to skip a generation./

22:20:57 gabriel_laddel: Norm Hardy

22:27:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7850 @ 0.00071136 = 5.5842 BTC [+]

22:44:42 mircea_popescu: i<asciilifeform> only swept under carpet << of course.

22:45:08 mircea_popescu: the nsa approach to software issues is not "how can we fix this" but "how can we pretend this is fixed while really we can just keep it in sleeve for later because you never know". fnargl through and through.

22:45:57 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes well i have nobody with an axe to ship there rightnao

22:46:52 mircea_popescu: and i don't think i've not gotten scammed for any item i bought or service i hired since at least 1875.

22:47:06 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3548 @ 0.00071136 = 2.5239 BTC [+]

22:47:44 mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel o hey there. how's life in

22:47:50 mircea_popescu: masamuneland

22:59:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7340 @ 0.00071112 = 5.2196 BTC [-]

23:06:21 deedbot-: [Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] The economics of sinking Garzikcoin aka BIP 100. - http://www.contravex.com/2015/08/29/the-economics-of-sinking-garzikcoin-aka-bip-100/

23:15:08 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: I work a lot but have a new crush. 5/10?

23:15:21 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: how is Ar?

23:21:40 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12940 @ 0.00070893 = 9.1736 BTC [-] {4}

23:25:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11450 @ 0.00071946 = 8.2378 BTC [+] {5}

23:27:21 gabriel_laddel: !up shovel_boss

23:27:25 gabriel_laddel: !up moonpunter

23:27:51 shovel_boss: thanks for nothing

23:27:58 shovel_boss: this register and login system with your bot sucks

23:28:00 shovel_boss: fuck off

23:28:07 gabriel_laddel: !down shovel_boss

23:28:36 mircea_popescu: pretty stupid.

23:28:46 mircea_popescu: lol

23:29:23 mircea_popescu: in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/qoXAtsJnN2l55tijZV77jJrO_1280.jpg

23:29:25 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1EpMn4v )

23:29:52 gabriel_laddel: ewww troglodyte photobomb

23:30:11 mircea_popescu: waitwut

23:30:50 gabriel_laddel: troglodyte male in the background ruins photo :/

23:31:12 mircea_popescu: o.O

23:31:21 mircea_popescu: it's just some dude...

23:31:29 gabriel_laddel: but his face!

23:32:01 mircea_popescu: not like you HAVE TO fuck EVERYONE in the pic

23:32:05 moonpunter: ya'll cray

23:32:18 gabriel_laddel: ;; ud cray

23:32:19 gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Cray | cray. Another word for crazy. An abbreviation that you can use to describe a crazy person. That one cray bitch. She be cray. Why are you acting so cray?

23:32:44 moonpunter: gribble's always doing stuff.

23:33:16 gabriel_laddel: GODDAMNIT MP HOW IS ARGENTINA

23:33:22 gabriel_laddel: moonpunter: also what

23:33:50 *: moonpunter picks nose, hides under table

23:33:52 mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> pretty stupid. <<

23:34:12 gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: more specifically, I'd love to hear more about the justice system some time

23:34:43 mircea_popescu: pretty much a copy of the 1996 ru justice system.

23:35:07 mircea_popescu: overdrawn but unenforceable "rights" of the common man, endless trials, complete disjunction between law and commerce, the works.

23:35:50 gabriel_laddel: Do you have a database of all the judges, the lawyers who frequent their courts etc?

23:35:56 gabriel_laddel: or is such a thing for sale

23:36:02 mircea_popescu: and a deeply ignorant population which imagines its vague notions of ethics and fairness are worth two shits, mostly through being so useless and inept that they never get to check said in any sort of practice.

23:36:22 mircea_popescu: such a thing is not for sale past what you get publicly anyway, the bar has a list.

23:36:39 moonpunter: never understood the "commoner" paradigm. what is this a magic deck? if so, i'm a ltd. ed. rare holofoil, bitches.

23:36:50 gabriel_laddel: !down moonpunter

23:37:04 gabriel_laddel: read the logs?

23:37:10 mircea_popescu: moonpunter pretty much anyone not in a liberal

23:37:17 mircea_popescu: profession or otherwise indepedently rich = commoner

23:37:50 mircea_popescu: in a generous reading, students and other tramps are somehow in a liberal profession.

23:38:15 moonpunter: eh. i think your life is defined by your achievements. nothing against those with a lot, nothing against those with nothing. nothing against helping others by choice. etc. i just don't feel strongly about any of it. spend too much time selfishly focusing on my own life, i thinks.

23:38:33 mircea_popescu: achievements start with the first one.

23:38:37 mircea_popescu: which is, economic independence.

23:38:46 mircea_popescu: there are no prior achievements to that

23:39:20 mircea_popescu: and in other news, boxes! http://40.media.tumblr.com/qoXAtsJnN2hul9b89WgiGz3Z_1280.jpg

23:39:21 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ho4u04 )

23:42:59 trinque: rather artistic, that one. I like it

23:43:04 trinque: gabriel_laddel: in porn, do not fear the penis

23:43:26 trinque: moonpunter: whatsamatta with selfishness?

23:43:36 gabriel_laddel: trinque: lol, no fear - it just turns me off.

23:43:39 gabriel_laddel: I've a thing for faces.

23:43:48 gabriel_laddel: trinque: how goes btw

23:44:47 trinque: not bad at all; prepping a move back to Texas, enjoying life

23:44:49 trinque: yourself?

23:45:23 gabriel_laddel: trinque: it's in the logs, but work mostly.

23:47:27 pete_dushenski: i have returned !

23:47:30 gabriel_laddel: hola

23:47:32 trinque: good afternoon

23:47:44 pete_dushenski: thanks to all for the well wishes :)

23:48:03 pete_dushenski: i've been mostly keeping up on the logs

23:49:00 pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1256216 << indubitably. wouldn't mind reading a fraudsters on this basis.

23:49:00 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 23:38:33; mircea_popescu: achievements start with the first one.

23:49:54 mircea_popescu: it's really unfortunate they don't do presentation anymore.

23:49:55 pete_dushenski: i'm not sure i've been economically independent quite long enough to pen this myself

23:50:11 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu presentation ?

23:50:18 mircea_popescu: i guess there's the texas dip for girls "of society" which means ~jack anymore, and i suppose they still do bar mitzvah in some households but srsly...

23:50:50 pete_dushenski: oh you mean like 'baby naming ceremony'

23:51:00 trinque: sounds more like coming of age.

23:51:11 pete_dushenski: aha

23:51:33 trinque: "we're going to begin expecting adult things of you now. act like it."

23:51:33 pete_dushenski: 'sweet 16'

23:51:40 mircea_popescu: no i mean like, "here is this worm that came out of my wife. turns out it actually is a person!"

23:51:48 mircea_popescu: as in, presentation of the thing to the forum.

23:52:07 pete_dushenski: 'brit milah'

23:52:13 gabriel_laddel: America is two generations too late for that

23:52:14 mircea_popescu: kinda degenerated into the french bacalaureat, which meanwhile became a "right" dontchaknow

23:52:36 mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/iPoqOK3xQ2fea7vjSEbbAOTc_500.jpg

23:52:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ho5wsX )

23:52:59 trinque: lewd

23:54:17 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu well, a blog post ~on your own blog~ is pretty much as good as it gets atm

23:55:02 pete_dushenski: we have a short little 'brit milah' tmrw at the synagogue for meatwot (but no briss planned)

23:55:27 pete_dushenski: ;;ticker

23:55:28 gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 230.2, Best ask: 230.39, Bid-ask spread: 0.19000, Last trade: 230.39, 24 hour volume: 10095.17439433, 24 hour low: 227.16, 24 hour high: 234.03, 24 hour vwap: None

23:55:37 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1256251 <<< to this, i raise https://tribkcpq.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/geoduck.jpg

23:55:37 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 23:52:36; mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/iPoqOK3xQ2fea7vjSEbbAOTc_500.jpg

23:55:38 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ho5KAk )

23:56:09 gabriel_laddel: http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/geoduck.jpg << Al wins. Again.

23:56:10 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ho5Ojy )

23:56:19 asciilifeform: famous!

23:56:48 asciilifeform: http://www.starvinmarvinswholesale.com/store/images/P/geoduct.JPG

23:56:50 assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ho5O31 )

23:56:50 pete_dushenski: ;;later tell bingoboingo no real opinion of lifted minitrucks. lifting isn't really my thing, per se. but i can see the appeal.

23:56:50 gribble: The operation succeeded.

23:57:12 trinque: and people use "natural" like it's a positive thing...

23:57:36 gabriel_laddel: and here I was under the impression stas didn't like penis.

23:57:41 trinque: lol

23:58:04 pete_dushenski: people change

23:58:11 pete_dushenski: !b 3

23:58:11 assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2DPPY2J.txt )

23:58:28 asciilifeform: don't have to like liver, to use it

23:58:54 hanbot: you don't like liver?

23:59:05 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2015#1256165 << i think 'later' might be 'now'

23:59:05 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2015 22:45:08; mircea_popescu: the nsa approach to software issues is not "how can we fix this" but "how can we pretend this is fixed while really we can just keep it in sleeve for later because you never know". fnargl through and through.

23:59:31 asciilifeform: hanbot: strangely, i liked it as a boy, but no longer..

23:59:40 asciilifeform: odd how food works