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Transcript for 30-08-2014, 1495 lines:

00:05:58 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 1363 @ 0.00058476 = 0.797 BTC [-] {22}

00:10:36 RagnarDanneskjol: ;;later tell mircea_popescu pls ping me when yur back in the hood

00:10:36 gribble: The operation succeeded.

00:16:08 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10700 @ 0.00085058 = 9.1012 BTC [-] {2}

00:19:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18955 @ 0.00085039 = 16.1191 BTC [-]

00:20:50 TheNewDeal: bc,stats

00:20:58 TheNewDeal: ;;bc,stats

00:21:00 gribble: Current Blocks: 318162 | Current Difficulty: 2.38446700388033E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 318527 | Next Difficulty In: 365 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 3 hours, 50 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 26786940350.7 | Estimated Percent Change: 12.33932

00:29:23 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 40 @ 0.0217227 = 0.8689 BTC [-] {2}

00:32:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1745 @ 0.0008496 = 1.4826 BTC [-]

00:32:35 ben_vulpes: http://blog.coinbase.com/post/95927658922/coinbase-insured << but not for cold storage

00:32:36 assbot: The Coinbase Blog Coinbase Insured

00:37:30 mircea_popescu: RagnarDanneskjol well like nao

00:41:41 RagnarDanneskjol: pmming momentarily

00:42:48 mircea_popescu: lycerion ce din genuni rasari cu-o-ntreaga lume,

00:42:58 mircea_popescu: nu cere fapte si minuni care n-au chip si nume.

00:44:28 RagnarDanneskjol: !up MolokoDeck

00:46:11 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/of-mendacity-mold-bugs-and-other-things/#comment-106873 >> lmao check out douchecanoe

00:46:12 assbot: Of mendacity, mold, bugs and other things. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

00:46:13 mircea_popescu: i mean contravex

00:47:06 mircea_popescu: le

00:47:09 mircea_popescu: whoops

00:47:42 MolokoDeck: hello.

00:49:20 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck hey. so as i was telling RagnarDanneskjol, i have no problem covering you if you can deliver the thing by what was it, end of sept ?

00:49:39 MolokoDeck: ready to talk about details for completing the cryptocontract bot. most of the unit tests are in place, but it's a good idea to fill in any desiderata or necessities to reasonable detail.

00:49:53 ben_vulpes: hey does anyone have a link to that thing where coinbase straight up blocks certain addrs?

00:49:58 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell peterl " This got me thinking about the topic, so I decided to write up some thought I had on the subject a while ago." <<< the "i decided" device is the absolute worst intro mechanism for a blog post possible. it connotes this guy : http://fraudsters.com/2011/cred-ca-pe-alocuri-se-exagereaza/

00:49:59 assbot: Cred ca pe alocuri se exagereaza pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

00:49:59 gribble: The operation succeeded.

00:50:16 MolokoDeck: end of september seems easily doable to have a working version going and available as source in a GIT repository.

00:50:25 mircea_popescu: cool.

00:50:38 mircea_popescu: so tell me again what you think this is, best way to go about thisa

00:51:48 MolokoDeck: one wants to time-stamp and "notarize" documents that are signed by counterparties with verifiable cryptosignatures registered with #bitcoin-otc WebOfTrust.

00:52:01 mircea_popescu: ;;later tell peterl otherwise, the point that "bitcoin is the chosen" by the very code is quite sound and an intelligent way to go about it.

00:52:01 gribble: The operation succeeded.

00:52:15 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck nevermind what one wants, say what the thing does.

00:52:41 MolokoDeck: a bot would sit in whatever channel (this one) and someone would invoke it with something like .notarize http://domian.tld/contract_0001.txt nick1, nick2, nick3 ... nickN

00:53:18 mircea_popescu: no.

00:53:24 MolokoDeck: the bot would respond that all of the cryptosignatures of the listed nicks were registered with #bitocin-otc, their public key hashes matched and all the signatures were good.

00:53:36 mircea_popescu: it would extract the nicks from the signatures in the .txt. the mechanism to do this relies on gribble, did you see that ping ?

00:54:50 MolokoDeck: then the bot would return an SHA256 hash of the document, encode it as a bitcoin address and make a minimum non-spendable transaction, and log to a repository or blog the document with the sha256 hash and the transaction ID containing the encoded hash, and the block number it's in. It would wait to get a confirmation before doing this so the transaction would be in the blockchain.

00:55:23 RagnarDanneskjol: i think we;re still one step off here molo

00:55:49 MolokoDeck: if the signatures could be extracted from the document without knowing the corresponding public key, which I'm getting out of the public key registry that wot uses, that would be good.

00:56:07 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck it cabn, gimme a sec to find the solution.

00:56:10 MolokoDeck: but so far I haven't dug in enough to know if that's doable given command line GPG, I think you have to validate against a public key.

00:56:21 mircea_popescu: in the endless desert of logs

00:56:34 RagnarDanneskjol: so much lawgs

00:56:37 mircea_popescu: !s nick from:gribble

00:56:38 assbot: 1190 results for 'nick from:gribble' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=nick+from%3Agribble

00:57:05 MolokoDeck: simply having valid signatures doesn't guarantee that the people who made the contract signed it. which is why I'm using wot as an authority to find the registered keys for the parties asserted to have been signatories.

00:57:16 mircea_popescu: ;;seen bluemeanie4

00:57:16 gribble: bluemeanie4 was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 days, 23 hours, 9 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <BlueMeanie4> later

00:57:29 ben_vulpes: does anyone have a link to the lawsuit by the guy who sued the usg for the gold they 'borrowed'?

00:57:34 ben_vulpes: i don't even recall the name of the suit.

00:57:43 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-08-2014#792431

00:57:44 assbot: Logged on 12-08-2014 03:25:41; gribble: (gpg info [--key|--address] <nick>) -- Returns the registration details of registered user <nick>. If '--key' option is given, interpret <nick> as a GPG key ID.

00:57:49 mircea_popescu: ;;ident

00:57:49 gribble: Nick 'mircea_popescu', with hostmask 'mircea_popescu!~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu', is identified as user 'mircea_popescu', with GPG key id 8A736F0E2FB7B452, key fingerprint 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452, and bitcoin address None

00:58:09 mircea_popescu: ;;gpginfo --key 0E2FB7B452

00:58:09 gribble: Error: "gpginfo" is not a valid command.

00:58:12 MolokoDeck: since the idea of a cryptocontract is that it's unenforceable and the value of performing as per the contract is one's reputation, it seemed important to make sure the claimed signatories are probably the signatories.

00:58:25 mircea_popescu: ;;gpg info --key 0E2FB7B452

00:58:25 gribble: No such user registered.

00:58:28 mircea_popescu: grr

00:58:35 mircea_popescu: ;;gpg info --key 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452

00:58:35 gribble: No such user registered.

00:58:44 MolokoDeck: I can show you the unit tests doing that.

00:59:00 MolokoDeck: not sure I want the test server's URL going into a channel log though.

00:59:05 mircea_popescu: ;;gpg info --key 8A736F0E2FB7B452

00:59:05 gribble: User 'mircea_popescu', with keyid 8A736F0E2FB7B452, fingerprint 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452, and bitcoin address None, registered on Fri Jul 22 08:39:10 2011, last authed on Fri Aug 29 20:36:13 2014. http://b-otc.com/vg?nick=mircea_popescu . Currently authenticated from hostmask mircea_popescu!~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu .

00:59:08 mircea_popescu: there!

00:59:11 ben_vulpes: you can message gribble privately, MolokoDeck

00:59:24 MolokoDeck: actually, if one invites Tao_Jones in here and voices the bot some of these functions already work.

00:59:27 RagnarDanneskjol: he already jas it implemented in his bot

00:59:35 MolokoDeck: right, I could use gribble as an API.

00:59:36 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck so basically, bot reads each document, extracts declared sig, puts it to gribble

00:59:50 mircea_popescu: this way you don't have to keep updated keyrings locally or verify signatures in any wya

01:00:08 MolokoDeck: instead I'm using the wot API and the associated public key server, adding the public key to the bot's keyring each time a contract is validated, then verifying the signatures.

01:00:18 MolokoDeck: I presume gribble uses the wot api.

01:00:36 MolokoDeck: ok. so you want to use gribble as an open agent.

01:00:39 MolokoDeck: that's fine and easier.

01:01:03 MolokoDeck: the way i've done it makes it somewhat stand-alone. if the public key registry is replaced it would be general cryptocontracts.

01:01:32 mircea_popescu: so i figure why no give clueless noobs a chance. send an order " http://mediaparty.info/2014/ << find the afterparty". half hour later, "i can't find anything. nobody is sayinga word on sm, there's ONE picture of a guy and some wine on twitter without enough background to find where it is or anything".

01:01:34 assbot: Hacks/Hackers BA Media Party, Buenos Aires, Argentina

01:01:39 mircea_popescu: all these fucking successful derps for crying out loud.

01:01:40 MolokoDeck: ok. not having to sweat keyring security seems a good idea since everyone trusts gribble.

01:01:52 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck yup.

01:02:25 ben_vulpes: what's the "no congress shall be held to the agreements of a previous congress" citation?

01:02:35 ben_vulpes: regarding borrowing gold and refusing to pay it back?

01:02:44 ben_vulpes: i'm dying here halp pl

01:02:45 ben_vulpes: zlp

01:02:46 mircea_popescu: ;;google fraudsters story endless korea

01:02:46 ben_vulpes: zplzplpzlpzlpz

01:02:47 gribble: Decembrie 2013 pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.: http://fraudsters.com/2013/12; ZoneHedge Wow. Such Durden. Much info. About useless ... - fraudsters: http://fraudsters.com/2013/zonehedge-wow-such-durden-much-info-about-useless/; Understanding Argentina's Coming Default, For Real This ... - fraudsters: http://fraudsters.com/2014/understanding-argentinas-coming-default-for-real- (1 more message)

01:03:00 MolokoDeck: what is of concern is that to make a valid transaction to the bitcoin blockchain one has to manage a web wallet. The first cut is going to use block.io since they have a simple API that includes the testnet (which I'm using in such a rudimentary way it doesn't matter whether it's obsolete features exist or not. the subset of features is common to the latest bitcoind)

01:03:17 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck so what's the concern ?

01:03:30 ben_vulpes: john m kerry thanks mircea_popescu !

01:03:43 MolokoDeck: probably none, other than that the software has to store the passphrase somewhere. like... on a server.

01:03:43 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it goes back all the fucking way to 1930.

01:03:59 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck it's never going to own more than a bitcent or w/e

01:04:02 MolokoDeck: or if the bot is started with a shell command the parameters end up in the process list.

01:04:16 mircea_popescu: if someone breaks in and steals the bitcent, hey, more power to them.

01:04:21 MolokoDeck: yeah, it's like 5 cents a document, about the cost of a xerox copy.

01:04:43 mircea_popescu: ok, so say what the thing is again, let's see if i say yes this time.

01:04:43 MolokoDeck: so the wallet just has to have a few centiBTC in it at a time.

01:05:25 MolokoDeck: if security concerns are de minimus I'm ready to finish it as planned.

01:06:20 RagnarDanneskjol: wanna run it down one more time for clarity molo? what it does exactly

01:07:27 MolokoDeck: bot sits in here. People point it at a cryptocontract with multiple signatories. it verifies the signatures. if they're good it creates an unspendable bitcoin transaction with the address encoding the SHA256 hash of the contract. When that transaction clears and is on the blockchain, it notifies the IRC channel and gives the URL of a logged copy of the document, it's associated hash, and a pointer to the blockchain transac

01:07:27 MolokoDeck: tion ID and/or block number.

01:08:28 mircea_popescu: no.

01:08:41 mircea_popescu: it does not verify the signatures. it merely extracts w/e signature gpg sees in the document.

01:09:00 MolokoDeck: it also logs the documents to some kind of repostory or blog. Knowing the preferred format and web address of that ahead of time may be good, but that's like a quick mod to make it do whatever wherever.

01:09:04 mircea_popescu: o, that what you meant, "verifies" via google ?

01:09:18 mircea_popescu: shit. via gribble i mean.

01:09:31 mircea_popescu: i need more coffee, amphetamines and cuntjuice over here.

01:10:01 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11905 @ 0.00085367 = 10.1629 BTC [+] {2}

01:10:04 MolokoDeck: searching and indexing that blog sounds like a website backend function, not part of the bot.

01:10:08 *: RagnarDanneskjol wonders if single use wallets are better for this

01:10:22 mircea_popescu: RagnarDanneskjol nah i want it to always send from the same address.

01:10:29 MolokoDeck: some sort of "give the bot another wallet" IRC commandline function would work for that.

01:10:39 mircea_popescu: no bother.

01:10:47 MolokoDeck: ok. so it's presumed the signatures are valid?

01:11:04 mircea_popescu: if gribble says so, yes.

01:11:06 MolokoDeck: verifies using GPG or gribble.

01:11:14 RagnarDanneskjol: mmk

01:11:15 mircea_popescu: no, not using gpg. using gribble.

01:11:37 mircea_popescu: when you feed a string to gpg you either get a "nonsense" complaint or a "signed by X" response, with a warning that "we can't know who x is "

01:12:01 mircea_popescu: this warning we squarely ignore, because if gribble knows who x is so do we

01:14:53 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "Now this wasn't particularly notable at all. Now a lot of mining companies are crawling" << you are not allowed to use now as the first word in two consecutive sentences

01:14:57 mircea_popescu: what is this, kansas ?

01:15:11 mircea_popescu: !up MolokoDeck

01:15:23 ben_vulpes: gribble does sigver?

01:15:36 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes nope.

01:15:37 MolokoDeck: you need the hash of the public key ... to get that it seems you need the public key. the PGP cryptosignatures on a document are kind of opaque if you don't have the public key already, apparently it uses the public key to determine whether the signatures match the unaltered document and are from the person who owns the private key matching the public key.

01:15:37 MolokoDeck: at least to do what I'm already doing with it. If this is easier than that then it's as good as done.

01:15:39 MolokoDeck: it's easy to spiff a static address with a few satoshi.

01:15:40 MolokoDeck: rather than keep signing up for more block.io addresses.

01:15:44 MolokoDeck: I just sent you a link to the unit tests.

01:16:10 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck it's included in the signature block of the signed thing.

01:16:13 ben_vulpes: MolokoDeck: care to share ?

01:16:36 ben_vulpes: i have two whole beers to get through before i knock off for the long weekend i want to read more unit tests

01:16:37 ben_vulpes: hue

01:16:46 mircea_popescu: lol

01:17:16 ben_vulpes: (mircea_popescu: it's like "i find this amusing, even though nobody else probably does, or someone's trolling me, but it's not quite lolworthy")

01:17:39 ben_vulpes: !s ben_vulpes lol

01:17:40 assbot: 25 results for 'ben_vulpes lol' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=ben_vulpes+lol

01:17:53 RagnarDanneskjol: he likes to keep things quiet until they're ready for primetime

01:17:53 RagnarDanneskjol: something of a coder primadonna

01:17:53 MolokoDeck: I think that use of "now" requires a comma in the first sentence, since it's used as a colloquialism or interjection.

01:18:11 mircea_popescu: no ppl i r not insane tyvm stop pming me. i am aware that through the process as described signatures never get in fact verified and one could create a colision and sign for someone else. this is not a bug, it's a fucking feature. you ARE supposed to check YOURSELF the fucking sigs if you intend to rely on the signed documents. it's the only way to implement this correctly.

01:19:57 ben_vulpes: so signed by "x" does not imply that the signature is valid?

01:20:13 ben_vulpes: or that the signature is valid for hash "x" but that there may be collisions?

01:20:32 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes gpg saying "signed by x" means nothing if you don't have x's pubkey to check.

01:20:50 mircea_popescu: a point so fucking readily lost on derpjournos you wouldn't begin to believe.

01:20:53 ben_vulpes: what is "x" in this case - hash or name + email fields?

01:20:58 mircea_popescu: nsa reads like a third of their "secure" comms on this basis.

01:21:07 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the keyid above.

01:22:00 mircea_popescu: !up CHRIX

01:22:02 ben_vulpes: hash == keyid, right? where does gpg get the hash? from the signature itself?

01:22:07 mircea_popescu: yes.

01:22:15 ben_vulpes: okay, great

01:22:53 ben_vulpes: and gpg verifies that the keyid is valid for the sig?

01:22:55 mircea_popescu: so having a "signature apparently by 8A736F0E2FB7B452, could not verify" is one thing. "good signature from user MP 8A736F0E2FB7B452" is another thing.

01:23:23 ben_vulpes: in the latter case it compares the known pubkey to the sig

01:23:33 ben_vulpes: in the former all it does is...

01:23:42 ben_vulpes: can you even verify a signature without a public key?

01:23:43 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/rfc4880.html

01:23:45 assbot: RFC 4880 - OpenPGP Message Format

01:23:53 mircea_popescu: it compares the pubkey it has stored (and which you hopefully signed) to the shit in the hash of the signed document to establish it was not merely signed but actually signed by x.

01:24:00 mircea_popescu: !up MolokoDesk

01:24:09 MolokoDesk: that's why I'm getting the public key out of the WOT registry at: http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xAF65AE980C825691

01:24:10 assbot: Public Key Server -- Get "0xaf65ae980c825691 "

01:24:12 mircea_popescu: this is not something that may or can be centralised.

01:24:19 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck don't.

01:24:23 MolokoDesk: ok.

01:25:02 mircea_popescu: simply do this : separate the pastebin into individual signed bits, put each through gpg, take the apparent, unverified signer id, put it through grible to verify wot id, put it through gribble again to verify assbot linkage and you're done.

01:25:06 MolokoDesk: including the public keys in the document then signing it with those public keys would lock this in.

01:25:13 ben_vulpes: but in the case of an unknown key, pgp cannot determine if a signature is valid.

01:25:39 MolokoDesk: sure, that's what I wanted to do initially, get the public key from the signature.

01:25:47 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes all it determines is that the document formally looks like one signed by that guy.

01:26:16 ben_vulpes: in that there is a signature and a keyid.

01:26:21 ben_vulpes: gotcha.

01:26:22 asciilifeform: MolokoDeck: please, absolutely must, take the time to understand how pgp actually works.

01:26:25 mircea_popescu: just like irl, the registrar of deeds does not verify your signature, merely looks that this shitwas signed

01:26:39 mircea_popescu: if a matter of repudiation arises, then that is dealt with by testing the sig.

01:26:53 MolokoDesk: ok. can GPG extract the public key from a cryptosignature without knowing which public key was used to make the cryptosignature?

01:27:08 mircea_popescu: MolokoDeck it can extract a keyid from the signature block.

01:27:08 MolokoDesk: I didn't see any obvious way to do that.

01:27:10 mircea_popescu: try it.

01:27:26 MolokoDesk: I did, which is why I resorted to using wot's key registry.

01:27:47 MolokoDesk: oh it CAN extract it.

01:27:48 mircea_popescu: gimme a pastebin with something you signed please.

01:27:48 MolokoDesk: hmn.

01:27:56 mircea_popescu: don't make it something stupid.

01:28:13 MolokoDesk: heh. I haven't tested this with documents signed by anyone else yet. sec.

01:30:43 MolokoDesk: ok. is the rationale here that if counterparties signed a document, they usually know who they are and since the contract is not enforceable by an external party, only by their cooperation, it doesn't matter who actually signed it if they all know they did.

01:30:56 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk the signature of someone you don't know is worthless to you.

01:31:17 mircea_popescu: the verification of identity relies on acts by they who know who you are.

01:31:17 MolokoDesk: and it's provable that the contract hasn't been altered since signed and timelogged to the blockchain.

01:31:24 mircea_popescu: quite.

01:31:26 mircea_popescu: (and signed).

01:31:51 MolokoDesk: ok. if this is easier than what I've done so be it.

01:31:59 mircea_popescu: welcome to philosophically sound software design (tm). i hope to see a lot more of it in the future.

01:32:20 mircea_popescu: computational soundness is so 1970s.

01:32:56 decimation: mircea_popescu: thinking about your definitions of socialism v. fascism, it occurs to me that one quickly leads to another

01:33:12 mircea_popescu: which is supported by practice.

01:34:30 decimation: for example, "I demand that the the group give me a "gun free" life" becomes "give us your gun or go to the gulag" for the neighbor

01:35:37 MolokoDesk: one of the many defiitions of "government" is "that faction that has a monopoly on the use of force in a geographic area"

01:35:44 MolokoDesk: definitiions

01:35:53 mircea_popescu: all the politics of infantilism, where one makes demands of god, are suddenly exposed to reality, because in either of these degenerate systems of governmance (really, sides of same coin) one actualy may entertain the delusion of it.

01:36:04 mircea_popescu: hence musolini's famous "i demand god strike me down"

01:36:17 ben_vulpes: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8244876

01:36:18 assbot: You are right, but if Bitcoin ever goes mainstream that kind of regulation that ... | Hacker News

01:36:48 decimation: MolokoDesk: I disagree, "monopoly on violence" is a refrain of modern apologists for the state

01:37:08 mircea_popescu: no state ever had or ever actually used any sort of "monopoly" on "violence"

01:37:20 mircea_popescu: first off, violence is a subjective psychogenic construct.

01:37:35 MolokoDesk: there's no such monopoly in practice, of course.

01:37:49 mircea_popescu: what one woman takes as violence another takes as courtship, a point the state is desperate to hide from the more unfortunate of youze.

01:38:50 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk ok, so one final time, to check this off.

01:38:53 mircea_popescu: hit me.

01:39:29 decimation: re: infantilism, charity << http://hopelesslysane.blogspot.com/2014/08/gratitude.html " I watched one brave/stupid older woman approach a very large woman with six kids hanging off her cart ($420+ of free stuff), and tell her "I know gratitude is beyond you, the least you could do is be polite." The oldest of the boys, about 12ish, menaced her, got in her face and said, "Fuck you, bitch! You owe us!", while momma smirked in approval.

01:39:29 assbot: The Lonely Libertarian: Gratitude

01:39:29 decimation: "

01:39:47 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why is the pgp corp named twice in the rfc ?

01:39:50 mircea_popescu: i never noticed b4

01:40:17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did wonder this when printed my copy

01:40:48 asciilifeform: my guess was - missing parentheses

01:40:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know you need to fix the links.

01:40:55 MolokoDesk: assuming everything suggested regarding validating blind signatures is doable: someone points the bot at a cryptosigned document. The bot sniffs the signatures. if all the signatures are valid for that document, it issues a transaction encoding an SHA Hash of the document, waits for the transaction to appear on the block chain, then informs the irc channel of the transaction ID, block number and a pointer to a logged copy

01:40:56 MolokoDesk: of the document. If the signatures flunk it tells the channel that. try again.

01:41:11 decimation: asciilifeform: re: djvu vs pdf << but surely you ocr your digital library

01:41:26 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk what do you mean by "are valid" ?

01:41:30 asciilifeform: that thing is on my box as mirror, as i'm convinced that our phriends will soon begin to monkey with various documents in transit by url

01:41:35 MolokoDesk: GPG says the signatures are valid.

01:41:41 mircea_popescu: mno.

01:41:42 asciilifeform: (yeah i should probably sign the copy i actually read)

01:41:50 mircea_popescu: we're not getting too far here, lemme write it out as a formal spec.

01:41:51 RagnarDanneskjol: test msg http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=5hrDQdR4

01:43:15 ben_vulpes: ;;gettrust midnightmagic

01:43:16 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask midnightmagic!~midnightm@unaffiliated/midnightmagic. Trust relationship from user ben_vulpes to user midnightmagic: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 2 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ben_vulpes&dest=midnightmagic | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=midnightmagic | Rated since: Mon Mar 7 15:45:54 2011

01:43:35 MolokoDesk: I've basically worked up a construction kit for such a bot. I presume the set of functions I have working, or some subset of them, can be used to implement anything we've discussed here.

01:44:07 mircea_popescu: RagnarDanneskjol MolokoDesk http://pastebin.com/yrL9xW6z

01:44:07 assbot: $ gpg -v -v gpg: Go ahead and type your message ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESS - Pastebin.com

01:44:17 mircea_popescu: of interest is the signature packet: algo 1, keyid 35D2E1A0457E6498 line

01:44:21 ben_vulpes: ;;rate midnightmagic -1

01:44:22 gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be authenticated to use the rating system.

01:44:25 mircea_popescu: ;;gpg info --key 35D2E1A0457E6498

01:44:25 gribble: User 'RagnarDanneskjol', with keyid 35D2E1A0457E6498, fingerprint B4AF6458D7D8A2846F91807935D2E1A0457E6498, and bitcoin address 14ixghmHMcB4szGL3ue5WJ1qnjnWnQXiP6, registered on Thu Jun 5 04:07:21 2014, last authed on Fri Aug 29 21:22:04 2014. http://b-otc.com/vg?nick=RagnarDanneskjol . Currently authenticated from hostmask (1 more message)

01:44:27 ben_vulpes: ;;eauth ben_vulpes

01:44:28 gribble: Request successful for user ben_vulpes, hostmask ben_vulpes!~user@unaffiliated/benkay. Get your encrypted OTP from http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/2AFA1A9FD2D031DA

01:44:30 MolokoDesk: the only thing i haven't tested fully is spending via block.io's api (i have the encoded wallet address already), and getting PGP keys or key IDs/hashes from a signed document without knowing the public keys already.

01:44:31 mircea_popescu: checked. see ?

01:44:44 ben_vulpes: ;;everify if we're defending against collisions, extracting keyids doesn't help much.

01:44:44 gribble: (everify <otp>) -- Verify the latest encrypt-authentication request by providing your decrypted one-time password. If verified, you'll be authenticated for the duration of the bot's or your IRC session on channel (whichever is shorter).

01:44:50 ben_vulpes: ;;everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:3848beb16b68ec5ecee1475ddbe35c09c87cb06bfa9f07946cc58571

01:44:52 gribble: You are now authenticated for user ben_vulpes with key 2AFA1A9FD2D031DA

01:44:58 ben_vulpes: ;;rate midnightmagic -1

01:44:59 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of -1 for user midnightmagic has been recorded.

01:45:16 midnightmagic: now what?

01:45:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2993 @ 0.00085148 = 2.5485 BTC [-]

01:45:38 MolokoDesk: ok. working backwards from the document, get the pubic key IDs of the signatories then look them up with gribble.

01:45:43 mircea_popescu: yup.

01:45:49 mircea_popescu: one sec ima write it out plainly.

01:46:10 MolokoDesk: that's probably the most expedient way to get what you want.

01:46:51 decimation: ought these pubkeys be cached by the bot or grabbed from the keyserver per request ?

01:46:59 ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: is this you? http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2evkc6/conformal_are_the_real_bitcoin_core_devs/ck3kwf4

01:47:00 assbot: midmagic comments on Conformal are the Real Bitcoin Core Devs

01:47:09 *: midnightmagic looks..

01:47:36 MolokoDesk: so this is more a "bot, tell me what you know about this purported contract document, and save a copy, and if the contract isn't obviously bogus, notarize it to the blockchain with a hash"

01:47:49 midnightmagic: yup.

01:49:05 ben_vulpes: there is no playing nice with bitcoin-core.

01:49:14 MolokoDesk: the unit tests grabs the keys from the public key registry every time and updates them in the keyring. that may not be what we're talking about doing now.

01:49:18 ben_vulpes: conformal is not misbehaving.

01:49:34 RagnarDanneskjol: i think the 'obviously bogus' part isn't really even a consideration

01:49:46 *: asciilifeform sees 'golang' as a mild misbehaviour, but won't try to convince people

01:49:48 ben_vulpes: you're the lone positive supporter of ninjaspamgun.

01:50:25 ben_vulpes: and what is this charitable thing?

01:50:26 midnightmagic: I'm not his supporter. I've seen his type before.

01:50:31 ben_vulpes: ;;gettrust midnightmagic ninjashogun

01:50:45 ben_vulpes: orly gribs?

01:51:05 midnightmagic: The charitable thing is the project he's involved with re: children-oriented music education.

01:51:13 decimation: asciilifeform: should it be in LISP?

01:51:26 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user midnightmagic to user ninjashogun: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=midnightmagic&dest=ninjashogun | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=ninjashogun | Rated since: Thu Jun 26 19:05:58 2014

01:51:28 asciilifeform: decimation: for all i care - fortran

01:51:38 asciilifeform: but google proprietary crud gives me the willies.

01:51:56 decimation: asciilifeform: agreed. why not python?

01:52:04 asciilifeform: which python.

01:52:10 asciilifeform: the fact that i can ask this question - is my answer

01:52:11 decimation: heh. 2

01:52:26 decimation: good point.

01:52:59 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk http://pastebin.com/iuk6rard

01:52:59 assbot: Deeds bot : 1. Bot idles in chan. Upon receipt of command including pastebin - Pastebin.com

01:53:17 ben_vulpes: pythugh

01:53:18 mircea_popescu: <decimation> ought these pubkeys be cached by the bot or grabbed from the keyserver per request ? << ?

01:54:14 MolokoDesk: bundling the documents every 5 minutes or so. and storing the hash of that. I was focusing too much on indivdual documents. The bundling feature was in my unit test notes.

01:54:31 mircea_popescu: * asciilifeform sees 'golang' as a mild misbehaviour, but won't try to convince people << be fgucking thankful it's not ruby.

01:54:44 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk 1 hr.

01:54:50 mircea_popescu: !up MolokoDesk

01:54:54 MolokoDesk: that can be variable

01:54:58 MolokoDesk: I see you've specified about 1 per hour.

01:55:02 mircea_popescu: i'd rather have it fixed.

01:55:11 mircea_popescu: of course server may be under load or w/e.

01:55:19 mircea_popescu: but the idea is, once an hour.

01:55:30 decimation: mircea_popescu: I guess the question is about how much you trust the keyserver to serve valid keys

01:55:31 MolokoDesk: It's simple enough to parmeterize it, i didn't mean changing it from IRC. sure.

01:55:36 *: asciilifeform generally believes that safety-critical code must be written in such a way that auditor can see a tight correspondence between every line and what machine physically does. note that this doesn't entail 'use C!' but can also mean different machine.

01:55:42 mircea_popescu: mp service philosophy : "make small, absolute promises"

01:56:06 decimation: asciilifeform: which is why Knuth wrote MIX

01:56:15 mircea_popescu: decimation at no point are keys examined in this process at all.

01:56:23 mircea_popescu: kinda what the whole discussion has been about

01:56:26 mircea_popescu: well, 80% of it anyway

01:56:44 asciilifeform: MIX << herr knuth wanted no 'holy war' re: why he picked architecture, nor was he interested in commercial endorsement of the existing hardware

01:56:53 asciilifeform: he was, after all, writing mathematics, not ad copy

01:57:17 midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: The last time I was anything but civil to the ninjawhatever type, it turned into 2-year siege that culminated in .. like three (apparent) lawsuits because "ops blah blah exceeding authority blah". Why would I want to risk that a second time when it costs me virtually nothing to report on what I see?

01:57:24 mircea_popescu: i'd be so curious to fuck the imaginary daughter of knuth and buffett.

01:57:27 MolokoDesk: I see you prefer the block number to the transaction number.

01:57:31 midnightmagic: And conformal IS misbehaving. You go idle in their IRC channels.

01:57:33 mircea_popescu: sadly, gay marriage wasn't a thing then.

01:57:43 ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: i did for quite some time.

01:57:44 MolokoDesk: there are multiple transactions in a block.

01:57:51 chetty: The U.S. Forest Service on Friday published a nearly 700-word article on how to safely roast marshmallows, all in preparation for Saturday, which is National Roasted Marshmallow Day.

01:57:51 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk block-and-address.

01:57:51 ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: what is this lawsuit?

01:57:59 mircea_popescu: comes to fewer bytes than tx id

01:58:12 mircea_popescu: also, tx id is not as reliable.

01:58:17 ben_vulpes: oh not actually ninjashogun

01:58:26 midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: Completely baseless, time-wasting lawsuit because bitcoins hit the multi-hundreds of dollars and random $greek_person found a lawfirm willing to launch defamation nonsense.

01:58:32 MolokoDesk: ok. still have to do a bit of work to find the address in the block. knowing the trasnaction ID is more specific. I'm not arguing the case, this is find.

01:58:34 MolokoDesk: fine.

01:58:53 mircea_popescu: yeah it's an extra step.

01:59:23 mircea_popescu: midnightmagic the one advantage of living in the us : afaik it's actually illegal to try and colect on euro defamation cases there.

01:59:49 mircea_popescu: might be just uk, i dun recall.

02:00:00 midnightmagic: Hope so.

02:00:08 MolokoDesk: so the burden of concatenating the document blob is done by some other agent and sent to pastebin.

02:00:55 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk that's not really your problem. one person could send five documents in one pastebin. three other people two each

02:00:59 MolokoDesk: I had been intending to accumulate individual documents and bundle them periodically then announce the bundle/blog location

02:01:04 mircea_popescu: you've now got 11 things to string together and that's that.

02:01:12 mircea_popescu: !up guest8374

02:01:26 MolokoDesk: yeah, if this is finally it there's not much more to say, I'll just do it.

02:01:35 mircea_popescu: cool. address ?

02:02:00 MolokoDesk: you want to discuss what happens when it's done that's fine. I'm already good to start on this based on previous email relayed.

02:02:22 mircea_popescu: well once it's done it'll be on github and hosted somewhere.

02:02:27 MolokoDesk: right.

02:02:28 mircea_popescu: what you writing this in ?

02:02:32 MolokoDesk: php

02:02:55 MolokoDesk: there's an option to translate it to python later, but it'll be done sooner in php.

02:02:55 RagnarDanneskjol: for starters - then pyth pref

02:02:57 mircea_popescu: then you'd best include notes on how to get a stock php server into a stater where it can run your code.

02:03:05 mircea_popescu: i dun care.

02:03:14 MolokoDesk: php is decent for rapid prototyping.

02:03:15 ben_vulpes: oh jesus you guys

02:03:19 ben_vulpes: look at this reddit angst

02:03:20 ben_vulpes: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2evkc6/conformal_are_the_real_bitcoin_core_devs/ck3t55d

02:03:21 assbot: tozee comments on Conformal are the Real Bitcoin Core Devs

02:03:39 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes for the most part, we're here to escape the teenage angst of the interwebs.

02:03:45 ben_vulpes: oh

02:03:46 ben_vulpes: my

02:03:47 ben_vulpes: shits

02:03:59 MolokoDesk: I'm hosting a bot in ragnar's channel already.

02:04:56 ben_vulpes: anyways, midnightmagic there is no playing nice with "core" dev "team".

02:04:57 MolokoDesk: install notes with the php code.

02:05:06 RagnarDanneskjol: well its not MY channel, i just do all the talkin

02:05:27 mircea_popescu: RagnarDanneskjol i got #fraudsters like that, it consists of me and some other cool kids logging into gribble.

02:05:40 midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: Do you mind if we go PM? I don't want to disturb channel.

02:05:41 RagnarDanneskjol: ooh I'm there

02:05:45 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk i dunno how you get gpg for php for instance.

02:06:06 mircea_popescu: but it sounds like just the sort of thing to become a nightmare.

02:06:51 MolokoDesk: i open a pipe for stdio, stdin and stderr.

02:07:29 MolokoDesk: a pipe to gpg works well, gpg outputs it's valdiation spew to stderr so most people have trouble using it from inside php.

02:08:03 mircea_popescu: php does pipes ?

02:08:07 MolokoDesk: yes.

02:08:11 mircea_popescu: o wow. what a band name.

02:08:16 mircea_popescu: ;;google php does pipes ? the band

02:08:17 gribble: Pipe Band: Music: Alma College: http://www.alma.edu/academics/music/pipe-band.php; Calendar - RSPBA - The Heart of the Pipe Band World: http://www.rspba.org/html/calendar.php; Pipe Band Magazine - RSPBA - The Heart of the Pipe Band World: http://www.rspba.org/html/magazine.php

02:08:17 RagnarDanneskjol: haha

02:09:26 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk and you actually have php irc bots somewhere ?!

02:09:30 mircea_popescu: i thought it was mostly py

02:09:43 MolokoDesk: invite Tao_Jones into this channel if you want to see the bot.

02:09:48 MolokoDesk: it'll need voice.

02:09:53 RagnarDanneskjol: he has a very cool bot that I talk to all the time

02:10:01 MolokoDesk: or you can drop into one of the channels it's already in.

02:10:03 mircea_popescu: um how did this shit go

02:10:25 RagnarDanneskjol: can we kick the bot after - it can get a bit floody at times

02:10:33 MolokoDesk: I'm using a lot of scraping to get data in some cases so some modules require periodic maintenance.

02:10:39 mircea_popescu: !up Tao_Jones

02:10:55 RagnarDanneskjol: .chart4h

02:10:56 Tao_Jones: ---+------------------------------------+-----------------------513

02:10:56 Tao_Jones: | ++ + |BTC-e BTCUSD

02:10:56 Tao_Jones: | + +++++ ++++ ++ |ask 503

02:10:56 Tao_Jones: | ++ + + ++ + |bid 503.056

02:10:56 Tao_Jones: | ++ + + + + ++++ + +++|

02:10:56 Tao_Jones: |+ + + ++ ++++ ++ ++ |499.0100

02:10:56 Tao_Jones: | ++++ + + + |

02:10:57 kakobrekla: such noobs.

02:10:57 Tao_Jones: | + |22-Aug 11:12:09

02:10:57 Tao_Jones: | + + |30-Aug 02:10:23

02:10:58 Tao_Jones: | |33 seconds ago

02:10:58 Tao_Jones: ------------+---------------------------------------------------485.02

02:11:02 mircea_popescu: souch

02:11:04 MolokoDesk: .wot ragnarrdanneskjol

02:11:05 Tao_Jones: no wot entry for: ragnarrdanneskjol

02:11:11 MolokoDesk: .wot ragnardanneskjol

02:11:11 Tao_Jones: id=11613 keyid=35D2E1A0457E6498 fingerprint=B4AF6458D7D8A2846F91807935D2E1A0457E6498 bitcoinaddress=14ixghmHMcB4szGL3ue5WJ1qnjnWnQXiP6 registered_at=2014-Jun-05 08:07:21 UTC nick=RagnarDanneskjol last_authed_at=2014-Aug-30 01:22:04 UTC is_authed=1

02:11:12 Tao_Jones: Public Key for RagnarDanneskjol at http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x35D2E1A0457E6498

02:11:12 assbot: Public Key Server -- Get "0x35d2e1a0457e6498 "

02:11:21 MolokoDesk: duelling bots.

02:11:43 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yeah but it had to be invited

02:11:59 mircea_popescu: that chart thing is fucking evil.

02:12:19 RagnarDanneskjol: i love it

02:12:22 *: mircea_popescu waves at DoctorBTC

02:12:26 DoctorBTC: does it do ascii video playback

02:12:28 decimation: is that supposed to be one of those 'ascii art' key hash things?

02:12:31 kakobrekla: anyone can invite since its not +i ?

02:12:33 DoctorBTC: hey mircea_popescu

02:12:34 mircea_popescu: RagnarDanneskjol i don't think tao can stay unless it starts answering ,chart in pm only

02:12:44 ben_vulpes: wow that's quite the paste

02:12:45 MolokoDesk: I notice that cryptsy has so many altcoins now that trying to load the entire json spew for them all crashes the quote-reading module.

02:12:46 mircea_popescu: DoctorBTC i don't recall what i wanted to commend you about, but it was something.

02:12:47 DoctorBTC: saw your shoutout the other night

02:12:52 RagnarDanneskjol: right agreed

02:13:06 ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: if you don't understand why this conversation belongs in #bitcoin-assets...

02:13:07 decimation: oh I see it's btc/dollar

02:13:15 MolokoDesk: .wolfram derivative 5*x^2-15x+12

02:13:18 Tao_Jones: d/dx(5 x^2-15 x+12) = 5 (2 x-3) = line = integral 5 (-3+2 x) dx = 5 (x^2-3 x)+constant

02:13:24 mircea_popescu: ahahha geekbot.

02:13:27 ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2evkc6/conformal_are_the_real_bitcoin_core_devs/ck3l0cg << what the hell does that even mean

02:13:28 assbot: midmagic comments on Conformal are the Real Bitcoin Core Devs

02:13:34 decimation: does that query wolfram alpha?

02:13:36 MolokoDesk: ?BTC

02:13:38 Tao_Jones: bitstamp: BTCUSD last=507.94 high=514.98 low=501.25 vol=7354 Sat 30-Aug 02:13:31 UTC

02:13:40 Tao_Jones: BTC-e: BTCUSD last= buy= sell= high=hi low= vol= Thu Jan-01 00:00:00

02:13:41 Tao_Jones: bitstamp: BTCUSD bid=506.43 ask=507.95 high=514.98 low=501.25 vol=7353.59436112 time=Sat 30-Aug 02:13:31

02:13:41 Tao_Jones: vircurex: BTCUSD last=551.0 bid=551.0 ask=570.0 vol=0.22212299 time=Thu 01-Jan 00:00:00

02:13:41 Tao_Jones: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() coinbase.php LINE 96

02:13:41 Tao_Jones: No coinbase data for currency symbol: usd

02:13:43 Tao_Jones: bitfinex: BTCUSD last=503.96 bid=503.97 ask=504.72 time=Sat 30-Aug 02:13:43

02:13:53 mircea_popescu: yeah this is a pm bot srsly.

02:13:59 kakobrekla: if this shit continues imma +m

02:14:03 mircea_popescu: ^

02:14:03 MolokoDesk: yeah, i'm scraping wolfram alpha, but if you pay them there's an API that is somewhat more flexible.

02:14:05 ben_vulpes: !down Tao_Jones

02:14:09 ben_vulpes: sry

02:14:10 RagnarDanneskjol: molo - lets hold on Tao floods

02:14:10 ben_vulpes: cannot deal

02:14:14 MolokoDesk: ok. no more bot demo.

02:14:20 RagnarDanneskjol: sorry, like I said

02:14:23 decimation: lol scraping 'human' interface

02:14:26 ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: ratings are not for "politeness"

02:14:29 MolokoDesk: it's morbidly verbose.

02:14:35 ben_vulpes: or "civility"

02:14:37 mircea_popescu: it's cool and all, but it has to pm to the commanding nick

02:14:46 MolokoDesk: kick the bot is my suggestion.

02:14:50 ben_vulpes: they are for trustworthiness and trustworthiness only.

02:15:09 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you really can't say what process a third party uses to discern trustworthyness

02:15:10 mircea_popescu: it

02:15:12 mircea_popescu: s like water.

02:15:39 MolokoDesk: the bot also maintains a link log page, searchable.

02:15:41 *: ben_vulpes drums fingers angrily

02:16:17 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes think of it the only right way to thinl of it : any restriction on the process for others is tantamount to a restriction on the domain of the trng.

02:16:21 mircea_popescu: only nsa wants that.,

02:16:39 ben_vulpes: well i've got my WoT over here, mkay?

02:16:44 ben_vulpes: it's got these pluses

02:16:47 ben_vulpes: and these other minuses

02:17:01 ben_vulpes: this minus is for this set of things.

02:17:11 mircea_popescu: and your skull over there too, with this brain matter in a wet soup, also got its pluses and minuses.

02:17:14 mircea_popescu: which are the better ?

02:17:36 mircea_popescu: teh pluses or teh minuses ? sodium or -oxigen ?

02:18:03 ben_vulpes: all right all right!

02:18:09 MolokoDesk: I was considering that the other night, having a web of trust data structure as a graph, then different algorithms to assess inheritance or diffusion of trust, various wieghtings of different endorsements, graph topology analysis to detect mutual endorsement cartels, that sort of thing

02:18:15 ben_vulpes: shit's just mad suspicious.

02:18:27 ben_vulpes: throwing fud at Conformal for "politeness"

02:18:36 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk welcome to irl.

02:18:38 ben_vulpes: rating ninjashogun positively for "politeness"

02:18:47 mircea_popescu: so you don't trust the guy.

02:18:52 ben_vulpes: yeah well

02:18:53 ben_vulpes: like i said

02:19:00 ben_vulpes: this negrating is for this set of things.

02:19:09 mircea_popescu: a a yeah. missed that part.

02:19:27 midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: It means the constant claim of credit for work bitcoin core does, the regular snipes and badmouthing of dev activity, the adoption, nearly wholesale, of bitcoin features and ideas without any attribution, and the denial that either someone with access to the conformal code created a fork after rejecting a conformal-mined block, or someone who has a custom bitcoind that doesn't crash on a huge long testnet fork even

02:19:33 midnightmagic: when everyone else's bitcoind did, is evidence that conformal is misbehaving or at least wilfully misinforming people.

02:19:57 ben_vulpes: access to the conformal code

02:19:59 midnightmagic: The rating had nothing to do with "civility."

02:20:02 ben_vulpes: lol what the ever locing fuck

02:20:11 ben_vulpes: do you mean this shit on github?

02:20:13 midnightmagic: Correct. The mining code, which was unavailable at the time the fork occurred.

02:20:20 mircea_popescu: midnightmagic plenty of people have custom clients that don't get crushed by the hearn introduced nsa bug.

02:20:25 ben_vulpes: https://github.com/conformal/btcd/

02:20:26 assbot: conformal/btcd GitHub

02:20:29 midnightmagic: mircea_popescu: That's another issue.

02:20:30 mircea_popescu: what, you really thought we seriously let you people do the coding ?

02:20:45 midnightmagic: I'm not a dev. s/You/those/

02:20:51 mircea_popescu: s/you/those/

02:21:01 ben_vulpes: and yet with the vim

02:21:07 mircea_popescu: i mean even fucking karpeles had his own (bad) sauce ffs.

02:21:15 ben_vulpes: phpsauce

02:21:26 midnightmagic: Yeah that was b-s. He was a menace. Nobody who relies on me lost any money at MtGox.

02:21:56 mircea_popescu: this is true, you're one of the very few people who were around during pirate even, didn't go all nuts about it.

02:22:17 midnightmagic: Not a dime. I did get ruled by BFL though.

02:22:20 justusranvier: I just spent the last three days supporting a code sprint with four Monetas coders and Dave Collins while they work on btcwallet. Midnightmagic's story about btcd forking testnet is complete BS

02:22:27 ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: still waiting on an explanation of http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2evkc6/conformal_are_the_real_bitcoin_core_devs/ck3l0cg

02:22:27 assbot: midmagic comments on Conformal are the Real Bitcoin Core Devs

02:22:28 mircea_popescu: which is why i'm not negrating you, myself. but hey, everyone his own wot sauce.

02:22:43 mircea_popescu: justusranvier hey there reddit boy :D

02:22:50 mircea_popescu: we were having lulz reading that entire thing

02:22:54 ben_vulpes: hey justusranvier i see you collecting btctips off my work

02:23:03 justusranvier: ?

02:23:10 mircea_popescu: lmao asshat

02:23:24 ben_vulpes: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2evkc6/conformal_are_the_real_bitcoin_core_devs/ck3ebmn

02:23:24 assbot: changetip comments on Conformal are the Real Bitcoin Core Devs

02:23:30 ben_vulpes: nah mostly joshin ;)

02:23:32 midnightmagic: justusranvier: It was one or the other. They deny it was them. From the perspective of an outsider, what's the truth? Who knows? But the fork started at a block CONFORMAL built, and went for hundreds of testnet blocks. It's not b-s. Conformal's logic is false about the origin.

02:23:36 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you got the worthless traffic, can't he have the worthless tips ?

02:23:47 ben_vulpes: traffic is worthless. tips?

02:24:04 mircea_popescu: what did he even get, 20 doge ?

02:24:08 justusranvier: ben_vulpes: that was your article?

02:24:10 ben_vulpes: what's a thousandth of a coin worth in three decades?

02:24:24 mircea_popescu: "php does pipes ?" nubbins` !

02:24:38 ben_vulpes: ;;calc 0.001/21000000

02:24:38 gribble: 0

02:24:39 mircea_popescu: make it happen! sign them! nude chicks with tubes on their head singing the ocarina!

02:24:42 *: nubbins` snorts, awakens

02:24:43 nubbins`: buh?!

02:24:53 ben_vulpes: justusranvier: yeah, i run ch

02:24:59 ben_vulpes: and van-ads.com

02:25:07 midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: A user put a forced garbage collection at the wrong spot in Conformal's btcd, and Go segfaulted for no good reason. The code is not as high-quality as everyone thinks it is.

02:25:14 justusranvier: I've actually got to run for about 30-45 minutes, but when I get back I can explain what actually happened on testnet.

02:25:40 RagnarDanneskjol: !up MolokoDesk

02:25:46 mircea_popescu: midnightmagic people like the fact that it's not in shitlanguage and it's better written than the bitcoind. this is not a comment on th\e actual code quality.

02:25:47 RagnarDanneskjol: mircea_popescu - are you confident molo is clear on the reqs? MolokoDesk - are you clear on the reqs?

02:26:07 mircea_popescu: i would think so.

02:26:16 nubbins`: process pictures, for those of you waiting on posters: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=756955.40

02:26:16 assbot: [PRE-ORDER] "What is Bitcoin?" silkscreened posters [15/50 left]

02:26:30 ben_vulpes: midnightmagic: user did idiot shit with code, code broke. surprise!

02:26:38 justusranvier: In any case, check the timestamps on the testnet blocks on the day when btcd announced they'd entered beta

02:26:42 mircea_popescu: RagnarDanneskjol hence http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#815547

02:26:43 assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 02:01:35; mircea_popescu: cool. address ?

02:26:49 justusranvier: You'll see something interesting

02:26:49 ben_vulpes: this is precisely the fud.

02:26:51 RagnarDanneskjol: i kno

02:27:08 ben_vulpes: ;;gettrust justusranvier

02:27:08 gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask justusranvier!~justus@unaffiliated/justusranvier. Trust relationship from user ben_vulpes to user justusranvier: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ben_vulpes&dest=justusranvier | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=justusranvier | Rated since: Mon Feb 11 19:56:55 2013

02:27:10 midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: That's total nonsense. It means the codebase is fragile, or the language itself is fragile.

02:27:39 mircea_popescu: golang isn't all that fragile, gwon.

02:28:36 ben_vulpes: i'll posit you the other scenario: bisect the codebase inserting GC calls until we find one innocuously positioned that can discredit the btcd team

02:28:36 mircea_popescu: nubbins` haha shiot sherlock, that satuff should bne on your blog.

02:29:05 midnightmagic: ben_vulpes: leprechauns? Seriously?

02:29:11 ben_vulpes: un savory garnishes

02:29:12 mircea_popescu: seems eulora is actually getting some models made woot.

02:29:28 nubbins`: mircea_popescu pretty proud of it so far

02:29:31 ben_vulpes: why a gc call? why there? what the ever loving fuck is the story?

02:29:35 nubbins`: the split fountain on the sky is particularly nice

02:29:42 MolokoDesk: ok. if we're in agreement about what to do and when to do it I can send you a bitcoin address and get to work.

02:29:56 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk just paste it here.

02:30:06 mircea_popescu: what the hell has life in the police state done to you ppls!

02:30:24 MolokoDesk: I may want to talk about the deliveries and such in /msg

02:30:30 MolokoDesk: but it's not an issue to get started for me.

02:30:41 MolokoDesk: ok. finding the address.

02:30:49 ben_vulpes: nubbins`: looking good frere!

02:30:55 nubbins`: tyvm!

02:31:09 nubbins`: you're going to lel when you see the next layer

02:31:15 mircea_popescu: dongs ?

02:31:19 nubbins`: nonono

02:31:19 ben_vulpes: errywhere

02:31:23 ben_vulpes: plz or cunts

02:31:26 mircea_popescu: COME PLAY WTH USS

02:31:32 kakobrekla: just hairy balls this time.

02:31:52 nubbins`: reminds me of a thread on gigposters.com, the place i learned my craft -- question was "what's your fave show poster"

02:32:03 nubbins`: all these world-class poster artists saying "space dicks" "yep, space dicks"

02:32:08 kakobrekla: you know what I DONT LIKE IT ALREADY!

02:32:10 nubbins`: i'm thinking wtf? search the archives

02:32:14 kakobrekla: sorry, LOVE.

02:32:32 ben_vulpes: aight mes ami

02:32:38 nubbins`: finally come across this Melvins poster w/ mcdonald's characters on the moon with huge 10' tall cocks growing out of the surface

02:32:39 ben_vulpes: babe calls dinner is ready

02:32:53 mircea_popescu: as per https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z0WmWUT2rM : Plutesc purtat de tate-naripate cu aripi din vata de zahar pe spate ma poatra-n ceruri roz cu nori pufosi pe care fac bule dinozauri somnorosi. In zbor trec buci cu lungi siraguri de margele si-un cartof rustic rastignit pe acadele. Mai trece si un peste de otel si-un urs din muci cu degetel dar iata, hiii, acolo-n zare marea vulva cum rasare.

02:32:53 assbot: RObotzi.S03.Ep13.Sugstanta - YouTube

02:33:17 ben_vulpes: can't be arsed. here's to the sybils!

02:33:56 MolokoDesk: address for project related to contract bot: 1TaoJrnsQzfyBto2PmwPAssce9DGzsHg3

02:33:57 mircea_popescu: "i float carried on tits with wings of cotton candy on their backs, they carry me through pink skies and fluffy clouds upon which bubble sleepy dinosaurs. flying by go butts with lengthy bead strings, and a rustic potato crucified on lolips " etc

02:34:30 kakobrekla: and dont do stdin/out when you have a gpg wrapper

02:35:15 MolokoDesk: noted.

02:35:21 mircea_popescu: what is it ?

02:35:34 kakobrekla: what is it what

02:36:04 mircea_popescu: the wrapper

02:36:17 kakobrekla: http://php.net/manual/en/book.gnupg.php

02:36:18 assbot: PHP: GnuPG - Manual

02:36:19 MolokoDesk: heh. Was going to have to look into that.

02:36:56 MolokoDesk: there's probably an includable object in php that does PGP operations that doesn't use the command line. some PGP or GPG library wrapper.

02:37:18 kakobrekla: didnt i just link to it?

02:37:22 MolokoDesk: generally anything shell() or exec() -like is a bad practice.

02:37:35 MolokoDesk: yeah, I guess you did.

02:37:42 mircea_popescu: ;;ticker

02:37:42 kakobrekla: <kakobrekla> didnt i just link to it? < twice, first time was a /notice

02:37:43 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 506.2, Best ask: 507.83, Bid-ask spread: 1.63000, Last trade: 506.58, 24 hour volume: 7309.58172579, 24 hour low: 501.25, 24 hour high: 514.98, 24 hour vwap: 508.106868918

02:39:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HASH] 488 @ 0.00115757 = 0.5649 BTC [-] {6}

02:39:42 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk done.

02:40:28 MolokoDesk: do you want progress reports or just let you know when it's demonstratable first cut for comments feedback and midcourse corrections if any?

02:40:47 mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust assbot MolokoDesk

02:40:48 gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user MolokoDesk: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=MolokoDesk | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=MolokoDesk | Rated since: never

02:40:57 MolokoDesk: yeah yeah, I'm not in wot.

02:40:58 mircea_popescu: ;;rate MolokoDesk 1 dev.

02:40:58 gribble: Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.

02:41:17 mircea_popescu: get in the wot, you can get rated, then you can just voice yourself and add whatever relevant whenever relevant.

02:41:24 mircea_popescu: why aren';t you in the wot anyway.

02:41:31 MolokoDesk: it's just another thing to maintain.

02:41:50 MolokoDesk: but I see why it's the thing to do now, since I'm going to be in here a bit.

02:41:58 mircea_popescu: no it's not. your future ability to obtain work here, as well as your ability to benefit from the positive exposure you worked for today strictly hinges on you having a wot acct.

02:42:05 MolokoDesk: I do understand the utility of it, obviously.

02:42:22 RagnarDanneskjol: i been tellin him this forever

02:42:30 MolokoDesk: I'm in. I'll get that set up in a while.

02:43:14 MolokoDesk: it's a bit of work to "not lose a private key". I jest somewhat.

02:43:29 MolokoDesk: eternal vigiliance is the price etc etc...

02:43:32 mircea_popescu: it's also a bit of work not to lose your penis.

02:43:44 diametric: there really isn't anything to maintain..

02:43:45 MolokoDesk: so far I'm not worried about that.

02:43:46 mircea_popescu: the former is a better use of your time.

02:44:01 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: penis << dulap!

02:44:03 MolokoDesk: agreed. we'll see how it scales in the future.

02:44:15 mircea_popescu: <MolokoDesk> so far I'm not worried about that. << freud would beg to differ.

02:44:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lol you liked that didja.

02:44:40 asciilifeform: mega-educational.

02:44:49 mircea_popescu: MolokoDesk your penis ? sorry to be the harbringer of sad news, but... it doesn't scale in the future, it shrinks in the future.

02:45:05 MolokoDesk: freudian entropy.

02:45:07 RagnarDanneskjol: AHAHa

02:45:08 mircea_popescu: cunts enlarge with use. cocks just sorta diminish

02:45:21 MolokoDesk: these asymmetries.

02:45:28 DoctorBTC: the future is like the cold pacific ocean...

02:45:47 MolokoDesk: I gotta get back to the pacific. Surf's up.

02:46:43 mircea_popescu: i wonder what the divorce rate would look like if it worked the other way areound. doing it five times a week = +1 inch a year.

02:47:03 asciilifeform: plus wear-hardening.

02:47:04 mircea_popescu: "i've been married for 28 years your honor! ENOUGH!"

02:47:12 MolokoDesk: sometimes there's something to be said for equlibrium.

02:47:47 MolokoDesk: pacific... seasteads.. molecular biology research enclaves...

02:48:51 asciilifeform: !s king neptune

02:48:52 assbot: 1 results for 'king neptune' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=king+neptune

02:51:14 decimation: asciilifeform: what is your favored djvu reading device? kindle dx?

02:51:21 mircea_popescu: so i see coinroll add on bitbet, click, decide to try it out.

02:51:21 asciilifeform: decimation: 'nexus-10'

02:51:21 mircea_popescu: http://postimg.org/image/rl12aetz7/

02:51:21 assbot: View image: coinroll

02:51:22 mircea_popescu: SCAM!

02:51:54 asciilifeform: decimation: 'kindle dx' with russian os patch will read djvu, but only really makes sense for very good, high-contrast b&w scans.

02:51:56 mircea_popescu: ;;calc .5 ** 4

02:51:56 gribble: 0.0625

02:51:59 mircea_popescu: CLEARLY!!1

02:52:07 asciilifeform: decimation: 'librerator'

02:52:10 decimation: for mac desktop I've found that "Devonthink" works well to search/index pdfs

02:52:21 decimation: that's the name of the warez?

02:52:26 *: asciilifeform doesn't read scans on normal computer

02:52:32 asciilifeform: decimation: of the patch

02:52:55 decimation: reading scans on the computer sucks, but it's useful for searching references

02:52:58 mircea_popescu: but srlsy jurov, it looks neat and is quite visually appealing.

02:53:03 mircea_popescu: nice design job.

02:53:09 asciilifeform: decimation: most of these aren't meaningfully searchable anyway

02:53:30 decimation: yeah, more for textbooks, not prose

02:54:09 decimation: herr walker has a review on a bio of Maxwell: http://www.fourmilab.ch/fourmilog/archives/2014-08/001530.html

02:54:09 assbot: Reading List: The Man Who Changed Everything (Fourmilog: None Dare Call It Reason)

02:54:24 asciilifeform: read it.

02:54:45 asciilifeform: also recommend: 'the maxwellians' (b. j. hunt)

02:56:21 decimation: one wonders with the ease of finding scans/native text of a great many published textbooks - how long until the college bookstore becomes a thing of the past?

02:56:36 asciilifeform: decimation: this almost happened when cheap 'xerox' copiers appeared

02:56:57 asciilifeform: decimation: the textbook racket responded by changing books (mainly exercises) around as often as they could

02:57:03 midnightmagic: It's already a good chunk of the way there. Many courses at local universities have entirely virtual course materials and reading lists.

02:57:54 decimation: for undergrad subjects at any rate, you would be a pretty poor professor if you couldn't write your own text

02:58:08 mircea_popescu: and they are very poor professors.

02:58:29 kanzure: unfortunately it is not yet profitable to buy textbooks and resell directly to pulp recyclers :(

02:58:29 mircea_popescu: the average call girl makes a lot better money than the average uni prof.

02:58:59 mircea_popescu: and arguably, for much more socialy useful work, too.

02:59:05 decimation: considering scholars 500 years ago would transcribe the professor as he lectured, and then take turns reading the only copy of the course text, kids today have it great

02:59:11 kakobrekla: <asciilifeform> decimation: this almost happened when cheap 'xerox' copiers appeared < when i was in high school you could legally copy 70% of the book .... at once.

02:59:14 asciilifeform: many american 'public' unis publish complete lists of who's paid what - where i live, this is required by law

02:59:18 asciilifeform: and yes - it's true

02:59:28 chetty: <mircea_popescu> the average call girl makes a lot better money than the average uni prof.// but much shorter career

02:59:40 kanzure: the textbook industry spends about $3B/year on marketing- but have you ever seen an ad for a textbook?

02:59:42 mircea_popescu: chetty not so, not really.

02:59:45 kanzure: it's all spent on elaborate vacations for professors

02:59:51 asciilifeform: most (scientific) profs also moonlight as industrial consultants though

02:59:51 mircea_popescu: most uni profs fail to get their tenure in their late 30s

02:59:57 decimation: asciilifeform: most 'public' schools in the us require the same, always a source of amusement for the young ones

03:00:00 mircea_popescu: most call girls can push it past 40ish if they want to

03:00:18 mircea_popescu: the call girl however can start at 12.

03:00:18 penguirker: New blog post: http://cascadianhacker.com/./blog/2014/08/29_so-you-want-to-coordinate-an-ec2-instance-and-an-rds-instance-in-a-vpc-from-scratch.html

03:00:19 penguirker: New blog post: http://cascadianhacker.com/./blog/2014/08/29_coinbase-insurance-cold-storage-uninsured-nothing-insured-against-the-government.html

03:00:20 asciilifeform: obligatory:

03:00:23 asciilifeform: !s greenspun

03:00:24 assbot: 16 results for 'greenspun' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=greenspun

03:00:24 mircea_popescu: the uni prof can't start at 22.

03:01:27 kakobrekla: the problem with this search is - now there will be 18 results

03:01:35 asciilifeform: lol

03:01:41 mircea_popescu: not necessarily a problem

03:02:02 decimation: that's like grepping ps to find... your grep of ps

03:02:22 mircea_popescu: it does convey the information that the thing was searched later, and you can exclude bots if you wish.

03:02:39 kakobrekla: you can?

03:02:47 mircea_popescu: but for the average noob, history | grep history yields a lot of... "history | grep history"

03:03:28 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla im pretty sure it had a command

03:03:34 kakobrekla: do tell

03:03:47 mircea_popescu: mthreat how did the exclusion clauses work in search agai ?

03:05:08 decimation: "Then the whole RoseArt versus Crayola battle. The kids at the Salvation Army fair got RoseArt, almost half the cost of Crayola, and that's what the vouchers covered. But the RoseArt supplies were hardly touched and the Crayola was wiped out. At the registers, the fights started over, "My kids don't want none of that RoseArt shit, are you saying they ain't good enough for the good stuff? Only white kids get the good stuff?""

03:05:38 mircea_popescu: "yes. shut up and cook me some beans"

03:07:45 asciilifeform: http://hopelesslysane.blogspot.com/2014/08/gratitude.html << she went to lolmart

03:07:46 assbot: The Lonely Libertarian: Gratitude

03:08:15 mircea_popescu: libertarian is lonely through his own fault. shoulda made a wot.

03:09:11 asciilifeform: her.

03:10:03 kakobrekla: mircea_popescu and its not the bots one wants to filter - its lines starting with '!s' and assbots replies 'x results for ..'

03:10:17 justusranvier: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/26h3o8/btcd_beta_announcement/chr3a3i

03:10:17 assbot: midmagic comments on Btcd Beta Announcement

03:10:17 kakobrekla: anyway i go.

03:10:27 decimation: hehe yeah the other link at the bottom is good too: http://hopelesslysane.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-other-entitlement-class.html "We have millions of these privileged entitlement folks. They are the ones populating the Ivy League schools preparing for their rise to power over the nation. They have never worked a real job, never produced anything, never been allowed to fall on their faces, never been allowed to fail and deal with the

03:10:28 assbot: The Lonely Libertarian: The other entitlement class

03:10:29 decimation: fallout. They have no concept of reality, and sadly, most of us know them personally. "

03:10:31 mircea_popescu: She wasn't talking to me, but I could hear her saying, "It wasn't supposed to be like this, they're so ugly, it's just so wrong." << woman met the orcs, hasn't even been raped yet.

03:11:15 mircea_popescu: decimation i actually don't know any personally.

03:11:28 asciilifeform: like tolkien's orcs, these were built artificially and with great care.

03:11:42 justusranvier: http://blockexplorer.com/testnet/block/00000000000fe8aefd4cda07e13cc54eefc71cfffbacdd82d68f97f018f939f6

03:11:43 assbot: Block 222996 - TEST Bitcoin Block Explorer

03:11:53 decimation: " The oldest of the boys, about 12ish, menaced her, got in her face and said, "Fuck you, bitch! You owe us!", while momma smirked in approval. "

03:12:02 mircea_popescu: "Not these chirrin, my older chirrin! They needs these for they lunches!"

03:12:03 mircea_popescu: lol

03:12:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform an orc's an orc.

03:12:35 decimation: you gotta admit the pure chutzpah of trying to buy beer with 'school supply' donations

03:12:37 justusranvier: A few hours after dhill tweeted btcd's first ever mined testnet block, somebody showed up with enough hashing power to find 100 blocks/hour and started conducting history rewriting attacks

03:12:42 mircea_popescu: (only artificial orcs exist. mp knows, for mp has lived all over the world. actual poor people are more pleasant than actual civilised people)

03:13:18 kanzure: why would someone bother doing that on testnet?

03:13:26 kanzure: seems like they would have an easier time using regtest

03:13:31 justusranvier: kanzure: Well, do don't know for sure.

03:13:42 mircea_popescu: kanzure why not ? trolling is trolling.

03:14:05 justusranvier: All we know is they had the capability to do so, and they just so happened to reorg out of existance btcd's first ever mined block, and just so happened to start doing it after they publicly announced having done so.

03:14:23 kanzure: was it only btcd's block?

03:14:38 justusranvier: The history rewriting attacks were 100+ blocks long

03:14:42 justusranvier: More than one of them

03:14:49 kanzure: that doesn't answer my question, actually

03:15:18 justusranvier: We don't know exactly at what height their block was originally mined

03:15:24 kanzure: i see

03:15:35 justusranvier: Because they didn't save it, and the blockexplorer site doesn't save orphan chains

03:15:51 kanzure: too bad

03:16:01 mircea_popescu: the entire thing is really a meaningless exercise. who the fuck cares what happens on testnet.

03:16:05 mircea_popescu: it's not a blockchain of record.

03:16:15 mircea_popescu: it's much like natural experimentation : if unreproducible,

03:16:16 justusranvier: But they know their block wasn't bad because they submitted it to a local, isolated bitcoind before they broadcast it to the network

03:16:21 mircea_popescu: discarded.

03:17:00 justusranvier: It's just pathetic to watch the Bitcoin Core team and/or their fanboys compete on FUD when they can't compete on code quality

03:17:50 asciilifeform: re: orcs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCTL69saJVQ

03:17:50 assbot: 10 Orks (subtitle eng) - YouTube

03:18:05 mircea_popescu: justusranvier lol they can't compete on fud, this is a long established point.

03:18:34 justusranvier: They are trying, though

03:19:15 mircea_popescu: i dun see it.

03:19:24 mircea_popescu: gotta let people have fun, what.

03:20:18 justusranvier: So some companies, including mining pools, are interested in running btcd. For some reason, said companies sometimes ask the Bitcoin Core team for advice before doing so. FUD ensues.

03:20:38 mircea_popescu: you're really making too much of this.

03:21:10 justusranvier: I'm not sure what you mean.

03:21:48 mircea_popescu: can you see why reorging some new guy's block out of this world is funny ?

03:22:11 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00085394 = 10.6743 BTC [+] {2}

03:22:33 justusranvier: Oh that? Of course I can see how it's funny. The pathetic part is how people lie about what happened.

03:23:01 mircea_popescu: so people have issues with humor, what. i dun care, you dun care, foggedaboutit

03:23:03 decimation: asciilifeform: lol

03:23:09 mircea_popescu: !up altoz

03:23:45 altoz: hey mircea

03:23:54 mircea_popescu: hey unknown person from the interwebs

03:24:09 asciilifeform: 'conformal' smells suspiciously like a 'good-cop' half of a 'good-cop / bad-cop' act.

03:24:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform whay, just because old dod contractor ?

03:24:31 asciilifeform: nope.

03:24:36 mircea_popescu: using a sexy language and being generally sane ?

03:24:46 asciilifeform: yes.

03:24:49 decimation: asciilifeform: why not focus on producing a readable RFC first is the question..

03:25:04 mircea_popescu: you are ALSO making too much of it :D

03:25:11 asciilifeform: plus continuing with 'the code is the spec' derpatron.

03:25:24 mircea_popescu: that's a forced mistake.

03:25:43 mircea_popescu: what are they going to do, write out a spec then have the bitcoind horde pretend "it fails" ?

03:26:05 mircea_popescu: forcing specification through mutually disjunct implementations is the best we get.

03:27:10 asciilifeform: i must confess that the conformal/power-ranger war does not concern me personally, because 'happy is the man who has one leg, one sock doesn't tear, one boot isn't needed' - and i intend to solve the pertinent problem with own hands before it begins to concern me personally.

03:27:17 mircea_popescu: which is why i took exception to the "why cant we all get along" derpage from midnightmagic yest.

03:27:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a sound approach.

03:27:42 mircea_popescu: as i was saying earlier : so has erryone.

03:27:42 justusranvier: Speaking of specs, davec found parts of bitcoind script validation that involved behavior undefined by the C++ spec, meaning it's theoritically possible to compile it with a non-gcc compiler and get two bitcoinds that will fork on a carefully-crafted transactions.

03:28:05 mircea_popescu: justusranvier "code is the spec" means "the compiler we use is the spec" too.

03:29:01 decimation: because the code wasn't machine code or MIX...

03:29:10 mircea_popescu: mix dun werk.

03:29:19 asciilifeform: not only google, but apple, and microshit before them, turned away from traditional 'gcc' suite and proclaimed elaborate crud in its place. i could only ever assume - for ease of 'thompsoning' people.

03:29:21 mircea_popescu: for that matter, fucking machine code dun werk.

03:30:33 decimation: indeed, one must then blindly trust the logic designer and chip maker

03:30:44 asciilifeform: the wider the conceptual gap between what programmer sees, and what machine physically does - the more room for turdage - whether of the constructed or accidental kind.

03:30:59 decimation: asciilifeform: I thought apple was trying to get on board with LLVM

03:31:03 mircea_popescu: this can be a decent graduate exercise. "write the longest asm program that does the same thing on all platforms. you may pick what it does yourself."

03:31:22 asciilifeform: ''

03:31:27 *: asciilifeform wins

03:31:32 mircea_popescu: exactly. a succession of "sleep"

03:31:45 asciilifeform: nah, a string of zero length.

03:31:51 mircea_popescu: (the point being not to win, but like in any koan, to contemplate what the win means)

03:31:57 mircea_popescu: ~longest~

03:32:01 asciilifeform: longest.

03:32:13 *: asciilifeform assumed 'platforms' include all known cpu archs

03:32:21 mircea_popescu: lol

03:32:48 mircea_popescu: i was (in retrospect, mistakenly) taking an "observable" approach to "same thing"

03:33:43 decimation: supposedly gcc was made intentionally obscure so that stallman can use it as a crowbar

03:33:51 asciilifeform: for your puzzle, famous example - http://code.google.com/p/corkami << grep for 'polyglot'

03:33:52 assbot: corkami - Reverse engineering & visual documentations - Google Project Hosting

03:34:18 asciilifeform: decimation: crowbar ?

03:34:40 decimation: people just copy & paste the whole thing with GPL to all platforms

03:35:23 asciilifeform: versus what ?

03:36:43 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2014#458755

03:36:44 assbot: Logged on 24-01-2014 22:15:54; nubbins`: http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/01/24/1838241/fsfs-richard-stallman-calls-llvm-a-terrible-setback

03:37:06 decimation: "The existence of LLVM is a terrible setback for our community precisely because it is not copylefted and can be used as the basis for nonfree compilers — so that all contribution to LLVM directly helps proprietary software as much as it helps us.'"

03:37:22 asciilifeform: it was a terrible setback, though not for the reasons herr stallman gives

03:37:44 asciilifeform: because http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#815988

03:37:45 assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 03:30:44; asciilifeform: the wider the conceptual gap between what programmer sees, and what machine physically does - the more room for turdage - whether of the constructed or accidental kind.

03:38:16 decimation: asciilifeform: because better compiler = more people thinking they don't have to understand what the machine is doing?

03:38:39 asciilifeform: decimation: when 'better compiler' sits on 'same old cpu' - yes

03:38:49 decimation: Sounds legit. kinda like the existence of google translate is given as a reason not to learn another language

03:39:34 mircea_popescu: uh no it's not

03:39:36 mircea_popescu: it's a good entrypoint

03:40:00 asciilifeform: it's such a bad entry point that it probably encourages folks to study languages.

03:40:19 decimation: yeah, I agree. for me, it's motivating when I see how shitty its output looks, and it makes me want to translate more

03:40:23 asciilifeform: showcases how little the 'dictionary approach' gives.

03:40:38 decimation: now with idioms!

03:41:56 asciilifeform: back to subject - imho btc client is 'safety critical code' - but none of the existing implementations rise to even the most basic standard for such.

03:42:35 decimation: asciilifeform: do you mean to separate "btc client" from "btc node"?

03:42:39 asciilifeform: that being - that someone, somewhere, is willing to answer with his arse for what every character in the code actually causes the hardware to do.

03:42:40 asciilifeform: node.

03:43:34 *: asciilifeform is in the process of meeting this standard for a different application, and it is very labour-intensive. but necessary.

03:44:41 asciilifeform: just as with the discovery of ionizing radiation, people suffer needlessly because they 'intuitively' believe that invisible thing can't kill them

03:45:32 asciilifeform: somehow everyone understands that parachute, airplane, etc. have to be designed in certain ways - but mention programs? and 'you're a nut'

03:45:57 decimation: or inversely they believe that it's everywhere and out to get them.

03:46:17 asciilifeform: entropy, at least, -is- always out to get you.

03:46:31 asciilifeform: pick an arbitrary bit in memory image of 'bitcoind.'

03:46:32 asciilifeform: flip.

03:46:50 asciilifeform: contest / student exercise - find the most interesting one.

03:47:02 asciilifeform: your choice of cpu.

03:47:30 decimation: next step: find out how to flip that bit in said machine running with crap-o-soft os

03:47:44 asciilifeform: not even speaking of enemy action here

03:47:52 asciilifeform: just the now-ubiquitous non-error-correcting memory.

03:48:17 decimation: probably the majority of btc nodes run non-ecc ram

03:48:24 asciilifeform: example:

03:48:31 asciilifeform: !s bitsquatting

03:48:32 assbot: 0 results for 'bitsquatting' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bitsquatting

03:48:37 asciilifeform: ;;google bitsquatting

03:48:37 gribble: Bitsquatting: DNS Hijacking without exploitation - dinaburg.org: http://dinaburg.org/bitsquatting.html; Bitsquatting - [media.blackhat.com] - Audio and Video from Black Hat: https://media.blackhat.com/bh-us-11/Dinaburg/BH_US_11_Dinaburg_Bitsquatting_WP.pdf; Examining the Bitsquatting Attack Surface - Cisco Blog: http://blogs.cisco.com/wp-content/uploads/Schultz- (1 more message)

03:50:16 decimation: the fun version of this would be to squat on a domain predicted to be used by a popular bot

03:50:45 *: asciilifeform might have confessed before - is running 7+ yr. old hardware, because non-intel ECC hardware has become virtually unobtainable

03:51:38 *: decimation has an HP amd-based 'microserver' with ecc ram

03:51:55 asciilifeform: decimation: popular bot << no need for 'bitsquat' here. most of the clever sort of botnet use domains generated weekly, based on time of day. but, clever folks also use rsa signatures for payload auth.

03:52:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8650 @ 0.00085345 = 7.3823 BTC [-] {2}

03:52:42 decimation: asciilifeform: wouldn't there be an "id trail" from the registrar to the bot herder?

03:53:10 asciilifeform: decimation: at least a few registrars take btc and don't ask too many questions

03:54:13 decimation: even with payload crypto it would be interesting to watch the incoming packets

03:54:28 asciilifeform: decimation: you can watch all you like - run a 'tor' exit.

03:56:32 *: decimation does not want to become a zek

03:58:09 asciilifeform: decimation: if you have a strict isp, do it in one of those 'nature preserves' where it is officially encouraged (e.g. 'amazon ec2')

03:59:34 asciilifeform: but must understand, this is likely a popular 'sport' and anything you see - will have been seen by plenty of others

03:59:43 decimation: perhaps I could change the bitcoin addresses to something friendly :) http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-01-2014#435478

03:59:45 assbot: Logged on 03-01-2014 03:15:35; asciilifeform: there are tor exits silently pumping ascii through 'sed' or the like, slipping 'friendly' btc addrs in place of originals.

04:00:40 asciilifeform: must assume this happens, whether 'tor' or simply playful isp / backbone operator

04:01:11 asciilifeform: see also earlier discussion of swallowing rsa signatures of people you don't know

04:01:14 asciilifeform: same applies here

04:29:17 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9425 @ 0.00084908 = 8.0026 BTC [-]

04:36:24 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3846 @ 0.00084905 = 3.2654 BTC [-]

04:59:46 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> that being - that someone, somewhere, is willing to answer with his arse for what every character in the code actually causes the hardware to do. <<< this is only meaningful in a centralist approach.

04:59:50 mircea_popescu: we're decentralized over here.

05:00:03 mircea_popescu: difference being, between how a soviet rocket works and how a school of salmon works.

05:01:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18372 @ 0.00084825 = 15.584 BTC [-] {4}

05:02:50 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4028 @ 0.00084497 = 3.4035 BTC [-]

05:29:35 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: thing is - these salmon want - a rocket. and so will have to do some things they're unaccustomed to.

05:29:54 asciilifeform: while remaining salmon, sure.

05:33:20 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18869 @ 0.00084497 = 15.9437 BTC [-]

05:45:43 BingoBoingo: The great hazard of being salmon though is being recognized as to delicious to simply render as biodiesel by every living thing inclined to pescitarian consumption

06:01:35 cazalla: well, they do swim against the current

06:14:44 ben_vulpes: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/26h3o8/btcd_beta_announcement/chub4sp << forks are great yo quit bitching

06:14:44 assbot: midmagic comments on Btcd Beta Announcement

06:15:16 ben_vulpes: forks are how bitcoin-core dies. quit burning fuel trying to prevent the inevitable.

06:20:29 ben_vulpes: "Bitcoind core itself of course mostly tried to accept both forks and let the stronger one win." << sounds like the sort of thing a "core" "dev team" should really address - maximum fork size < utxos? mhm.

06:22:51 ben_vulpes: " My dislike of other mining nodes is a consequence of directly correlated forking dangers of alternative mining code, and I think we both know that." << one of these days i'm going to get left behind as reward for my courtesy of loyalty to the power rangers i can feel it coming but maybe if i complain a lot in public maybe the inevitable won't happen

06:25:03 ben_vulpes: "I respectfully question how you can authoritatively champion mining code written primarily in another language entirely." << because fuck the reference implementations.

06:30:40 ben_vulpes: evening vex

06:32:03 Vexual: 'evening good sir

06:35:10 ben_vulpes: great logs tonight

06:35:13 *: ben_vulpes applauds

06:35:23 ben_vulpes: top notch

06:40:34 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes how's the coffee ?

06:51:45 punkman: dobro jutro

06:59:03 Vexual: hi punk

07:02:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00084497 = 13.3505 BTC [-]

07:05:51 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8076 @ 0.0008495 = 6.8606 BTC [+]

07:09:32 punkman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco4z98nIQY

07:09:32 assbot: Parov Stelar - Booty Swing - YouTube

07:13:46 BingoBoingo: ;;ticker

07:13:48 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 503.06, Best ask: 504.73, Bid-ask spread: 1.67000, Last trade: 504.0, 24 hour volume: 7779.59236845, 24 hour low: 501.25, 24 hour high: 514.98, 24 hour vwap: 507.673992263

07:13:56 BingoBoingo: %v

07:13:58 atcbot: [X-BT VWAP] Bid: 175 Ask: 221 Last Price: 175 30d-Vol: 1.64M 30d-High: 250 30d-Low: 170 30d-VWAP: 197

07:14:08 BingoBoingo: %t

07:14:10 atcbot: [X-BT] Bid: 175 Ask: 221 Last Price: 175 24h-Vol: 0k High: N/A Low: N/A VWAP: N/A

07:15:00 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.23999999 = 0.72 BTC [+]

07:25:42 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: looks like conformal co. passed the 'test.' << with flying colours!

07:26:53 pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: church (evidently in some other piece, forget which) likens the vc circus to the process whereby american 'pop musicians' are industrially manufactured by, among other outfits, disney corp. << sounds aboot like http://contravex.com/2014/07/31/y-combinator-the-american-idol-of-venture-capital/ but less original

07:26:54 assbot: Y Combinator: The American Idol of Venture Capital | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski

07:30:07 pete_dushenski: <ben_vulpes> also: if it ain't about money i go/nowhere i'm nailed to the floor << too good!

07:32:57 BingoBoingo: http://www.coindesk.com/charlie-shrem-hopes-walk-free-guilty-plea-deal/

07:32:57 assbot: Charlie Shrem Hopes to Walk Free After Guilty Plea Deal

07:33:05 pete_dushenski: https://twitter.com/pete_dushenski/status/505534170916225024

07:33:06 assbot: Mr. /CharlieShrem, in taking it in the pooper like so http://t.co/qZe3na3Zd7 only proved his mousy illiteracy http://t.co/556Zm8Lku4

07:33:19 pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: you win

07:33:24 pete_dushenski: this round

07:33:44 BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Win what?

07:34:08 pete_dushenski: the marbles

07:34:55 Vexual: your link post arrived first

07:35:10 pete_dushenski: https://twitter.com/pete_dushenski/status/505377483798368256

07:35:11 assbot: German publishing house Heise showing how modern Journalism is done: OpenPGP Keys for all their journalists. http://t.co/DVwZQpOrnk (ger)

07:36:15 pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2014/of-mendacity-mold-bugs-and-other-things/#comment-106873 >> lmao check out douchecanoe << ;-)

07:36:17 assbot: Of mendacity, mold, bugs and other things. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

07:36:21 pete_dushenski: Vexual: o hey

07:36:26 pete_dushenski: so sydney...

07:36:57 pete_dushenski: hipster spots are fine, but classics are better

07:36:59 Vexual: i'll assume you've been drinking all the martinis, and have or want a girl or boy on your arm

07:37:29 pete_dushenski: well… have. and yes.

07:37:47 pete_dushenski: more looking for something unique

07:38:03 Vexual: get up pearly and catch the ferry to manly where youll find doyles on the wharf, gesture to the bacon and eggs

07:40:17 Vexual: find chinatown for lunch, dixon house has a foodcourt, you'll be smoked out with burning meat and spices, jostle for a seat with the asian kids, feels like hongkong

07:40:20 pete_dushenski: http://www.tripadvisor.ca/Restaurant_Review-g552124-d949190-Reviews-Doyles_on_the_Wharf-Watsons_Bay_Woollahra_Greater_Sydney_New_South_Wales.html << this one?

07:40:21 assbot: Doyles on the Wharf Restaurant Reviews, Watsons Bay, Australia - TripAdvisor

07:40:25 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9424 @ 0.00085299 = 8.0386 BTC [+] {2}

07:41:00 Vexual: prolly

07:41:04 pete_dushenski: http://www.tripadvisor.ca/Restaurant_Review-g255060-d5084700-Reviews-Dixon_House_Food_Court-Sydney_New_South_Wales.html

07:41:05 assbot: Dixon House Food Court Restaurant Reviews, Sydney, Australia - TripAdvisor

07:41:08 pete_dushenski: aite

07:42:05 pete_dushenski: so far so good.

07:42:07 Vexual: at night, head to the rocks, theres a german spot there, 2 litre beers and bratwurst and snitzel

07:42:49 Vexual: old cobbled streets, these days with lights

07:43:26 Vexual: then theres a jazz spot a stumble away, where you can drink all the martinis

07:44:20 Vexual: they all have halal options, and if you dont get jazz, they play blues

07:45:41 cazalla: check out "the block" at redfern

07:45:42 pete_dushenski: yum.

07:45:50 cazalla: Vexual will vouch it's tops

07:46:52 pete_dushenski: lolk

07:48:50 Vexual: gentrified by hipsters these days

07:48:53 pete_dushenski: the block is the aboriginal thing?

07:48:54 pete_dushenski: http://www.sbs.com.au/theblock/diane.html#/diane

07:48:54 assbot: Diane Whittaker interview The Block: Stories from a Meeting Place SBS Redfern Interactive Documentary

07:49:53 Vexual: youll also find cafes, tech startups, and old gangsters

07:51:32 Vexual: when an aboriginal kid died at police hands they rioted with vengence

07:51:51 pete_dushenski: woa

07:51:57 pete_dushenski: we're not staying far from there

07:52:13 Vexual: dont high five any cops

07:52:40 pete_dushenski: we're just at the south tip of hyde park

07:52:56 pete_dushenski: unless the cops high five me...

07:53:11 Vexual: :) it's all good

07:53:12 cazalla: redfern isn't what it was so don't worry too much

07:53:50 Vexual: when are you going?

07:54:50 Vexual: ive excluded dinner spots over 2btc with waiting lists

07:54:51 pete_dushenski: december

07:55:29 cazalla: drop bears in season

07:55:47 Vexual: sydney is hot in december

07:56:02 pete_dushenski: lol so i hear

07:56:46 Vexual: melb might be hotter?

07:57:58 cazalla: not unless heatwave

07:59:19 Vexual: if you wanna go 5 star you vould try quay

07:59:26 pete_dushenski: historical averages have melbourne 5-10C warmer

08:01:21 pete_dushenski: quay looks seriously premium

08:03:05 cazalla: melb is pretty much the same temp as sydney

08:03:48 cazalla: winters are a little colder here, i've lived in sydney (maroubra) and that's the only difference, anecdotal of course

08:04:05 Vexual: wha urbanspoon wont tell you is the cigar list is epic and girls should dress slutty

08:04:06 cazalla: tbh i'd fuck sydney/melbourne off and go to tassie

08:04:19 Vexual: er sexy

08:05:20 Vexual: foodies paradise

08:07:59 pete_dushenski: “All right, all right!” the man yelled, throwing down his weapon. “I give up, cop! I confess: I took the bitcoins.”

08:08:06 pete_dushenski: “Why’d you do it?” I asked, as I slapped a pair of Oikos™ Greek Yogurt Presents Handcuffs® on the guy.

08:08:10 pete_dushenski: “Because I was afraid.”

08:08:39 Vexual: king island cheese

08:09:28 pete_dushenski: who doesn't like a fine cheese?

08:09:40 Vexual: not i

08:09:46 pete_dushenski: ;;google tassie

08:09:47 gribble: Tassie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tassie; The Silver Tassie (play) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silver_Tassie_(play); Urban Dictionary: Tassie: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tassie

08:09:48 cazalla: bruny island cheese nicer

08:09:57 Vexual: ooh

08:10:05 Vexual: never tried

08:10:13 pete_dushenski: a yes. tasmania.

08:10:22 cazalla: Vexual http://www.brunyislandcheese.com.au

08:10:25 assbot: Bruny Island Cheese :: home

08:11:41 Vexual: goo in pinot and vine leaves? yes please

08:14:37 pete_dushenski: just looking up ferries from melbourne to tassie: 10.5 hours!

08:14:47 Vexual: your rabbits prolly command a higher price in tassie, people apprecieate good meat down there

08:15:43 cazalla: pete_dushenski, bring you own food if you ever take spirit of tasmania

08:15:57 cazalla: Vexual, i wonder if i can bring them in

08:16:08 pete_dushenski: plus bruny island's shop is clear on the other side of the island from devonport

08:16:24 pete_dushenski: http://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department

08:16:24 assbot: L.P.D.: Libertarian Police Department - The New Yorker

08:16:45 cazalla: you can always fly to hobart

08:17:35 Vexual: cazalla, they prolly already have rabbits there

08:18:04 cazalla: Vexual, they do, a breeder i bought a british giant from drove all the way to tassie to get them from a woman that breeds them there

08:18:39 cazalla: taking out might be fine, nfi on bringing them in, they went through all our shit when taking the car across on the boat

08:18:43 Vexual: anyone vauum packing them and flying them to resturants?

08:19:06 Vexual: yeah eat em and get new ones

08:19:16 cazalla: dunno, i did read the industry is dead, something like 100 farms reduced to 2 due to costs

08:19:36 Vexual: theres costs, and theres value

08:20:24 cazalla: i think it's due to calici and costs of vax

08:20:35 cazalla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmAGX9J3HlE

08:20:35 assbot: Rabbit meat farms disappear due to virus and costs - YouTube

08:20:48 Vexual: i guess you dont have that problem in your backyard

08:20:59 cazalla: not yet

08:21:14 Vexual: well it couldnt get in

08:21:34 Vexual: but you know about intensive farming

08:22:07 Vexual: a terrier run around the paddock should do the same as suburbia

08:22:30 Vexual: put your house in the middle

08:23:11 Vexual: get some plum trees and do plum rabbit

08:23:19 cazalla: that sounds yum

08:23:39 cazalla: when we move, i want to build some type of enclosure so they can run around and effectively be wild

08:24:17 Vexual: ).05bc, air express

08:25:07 cazalla: i sell you?

08:25:08 Vexual: learn bees too

08:25:13 Vexual: yeah ill buy

08:25:23 cazalla: not worth my time at .05

08:25:33 Vexual: yeah, but in time

08:26:06 cazalla: i planned to do bees in the spring but i'm putting it off until we move, i can't adhere to the regulations they set for doing it here

08:26:06 Vexual: my butcher has rabbit, and i know the value, im talking of value adding

08:26:51 cazalla: how much do they charge?

08:27:16 Vexual: i think its just south of 10 bucks a kilo

08:27:37 cazalla: that's cheap, prob intensively farmed

08:27:42 Vexual: and thats a long transport

08:28:43 Vexual: how big does your freerange zone have to be before you can call them wild?

08:29:02 punkman: wild doesnt have zone

08:29:07 cazalla: i figured like 1/4 acre or something

08:29:20 punkman: you ever try wild hare?

08:29:22 Vexual: :) some of these cattle stations could call their beef wild

08:29:44 cazalla: punkman, no but i'd like to

08:30:03 Vexual: never tried hare

08:30:08 cazalla: red meat yeah?

08:30:25 punkman: yeah all dark meat

08:30:28 Vexual: arent they just big rabbits?

08:30:32 Vexual: oh

08:30:41 cazalla: nah they are totally difference

08:30:45 cazalla: different even

08:30:47 punkman: I'm not really sure about the taxonomy

08:31:01 punkman: but they are considered a delicacy around here, cuz we ate them all

08:31:08 Vexual: lol

08:31:48 Vexual: there you go caz, big fat hares t whever punk is

08:32:49 Vexual: you'll prolly get a fucking government grant

08:34:25 cazalla: it's an idea, they aren't prone to calici or myx if memory serves

08:34:39 punkman: haven't heard of anyone farming them

08:37:33 punkman: they don't like a crowd

08:38:03 Vexual: terriers will keep em lean

08:39:29 Vexual: and they wont dig out

08:40:13 Vexual: cheap ammo for harvest:wild

08:44:25 Vexual: thats less like fraud than spoofing your bitcoin client version

08:57:02 pete_dushenski: ;;rate ben_vulpes 3 runs van-ads live from the 504

08:57:04 gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating for user ben_vulpes has changed from 1 to 3.

08:58:59 pete_dushenski: ey looks like stephane dun approved of my translation. i'll take it!

08:59:01 pete_dushenski: http://contravex.com/2014/08/26/infosec-education-because-stephane-bortzmeyer-is-lazy-and-im-not/#comment-7884

08:59:02 assbot: InfoSec Education: Because Stphane Bortzmeyer Is Lazy. And I’m Not. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski

09:00:23 Vexual: lowenbrau for bratwurst the basement for jazz

09:01:38 Naphex: http://i.imgur.com/gDohTUB.png - I call this artistic chart, "Saved By The Cache" :)

09:03:29 Vexual: oh, and just across the road from the asian place is the markey where you can find cheap electronics and aussie souveneir tshirts with vulgar slogans, 3 for 10

09:03:38 pete_dushenski: Vexual: nice. ty.

09:05:29 cazalla: all made in china

09:05:36 cazalla: this the markets Vexual?

09:06:21 Vexual: i think the kangaroo scrotum coin purses are made in oz, but largely, yes

09:07:36 pete_dushenski: time for sleeps. g'night b-a!

09:07:38 Vexual: Naphex: what site? looks similar to "spam fail"

09:12:06 BingoBoingo: http://www.theonion.com/articles/were-going-to-enjoy-this-cocainefueled-mason-jar-r,36779/

09:12:06 assbot: Were Going To Enjoy This Cocaine-Fueled Mason Jar Rocket Ride For As Long As It Lasts | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

09:13:23 BingoBoingo: http://www.theonion.com/articles/researchers-panda-faked-pregnancy-to-get-more-bamb,36809/

09:13:23 assbot: Researchers: Panda Faked Pregnancy To Get More Bamboo | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

09:15:04 Vexual: nothing quite like the onion

09:15:26 BingoBoingo: Better than the Times

09:17:03 Vexual: full fucking effect

09:22:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11250 @ 0.00085477 = 9.6162 BTC [+] {2}

09:27:20 Vexual: only chinese vets could claim a panda faked a pregnancy

09:30:17 Vexual: the actual pregnat panda, the one that pissed on the stich has been hung

09:41:24 Vexual: ;;google erowid mason jar

09:41:24 gribble: Erowid Psychoactive Vaults : Bong & Pipe FAQ: https://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/faqs/faq_bong_pipe.shtml; Erowid Mushroom Vaults : Cultivation Tips: https://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_cultivation17.shtml; Erowid Psilocybin Mushroom Vault : Storage in CO2: https://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_info3.shtml

09:43:04 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAOR6ib95kQ

10:09:02 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CQLAhNlbfQ reverse cronology and the price of safrole

10:23:09 kakobrekla: <punkman> dobro jutro < lol what got into you

10:24:54 punkman: feeling balkan today

10:27:11 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D2qcbu26gs

10:27:19 kakobrekla: well dobro jutro to you too ;)

10:27:36 Vexual: what time is it there kako?

10:27:51 kakobrekla: 12.27

10:28:32 Vexual: bacon or bacon?

10:29:10 kakobrekla: spam

10:30:01 Vexual: my heart

10:30:12 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1229 @ 0.00085473 = 1.0505 BTC [-]

10:31:12 cazalla: http://nationalreport.net/15-year-old-swatted-domestic-terrorism/

10:31:13 assbot: 15 Year Old Who "SWATTED" Gamer Convicted Of Domestic Terrorism; 25 Years To Life In Federal Prison - National Report | National Report

10:32:27 cazalla: i guess he wasn't behind 7 proxies

10:33:11 punkman: http://nationalreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/swatted.png

10:33:13 Vexual: i dunno why he's crying, outcomes coulda been worse

10:33:50 punkman: maybe they are tired of all the swatting

10:35:05 kakobrekla: coulda been wrose?

10:35:09 kakobrekla: worse*

10:35:24 kakobrekla: like what, life in prison?

10:37:46 punkman: http://stopmasturbationnow.org/lexicon/merriam-webster-adds-anti-masturbation-word-to-their-dictionary-fapstinence/

10:37:47 assbot: Merriam-Webster Adds Anti-Masturbation Word to Their Dictionary : FAPSTINENCE | Stop Masturbation Now

10:38:14 cazalla: it's fake btw

10:38:24 Vexual: its a job

10:38:54 cazalla: not that, the swatting article

10:39:49 Vexual: yeah, they might have told him about the"fucking with the police" ward

10:40:20 kakobrekla: what is this another onion ?

10:40:33 Vexual: everythings onion

10:40:45 cazalla: yeah, sorry kakobrekla, Vexual is right

10:42:21 Vexual: not quite

10:44:44 Vexual: but the onion does serve some truth with that bullshit flavour you love

10:45:03 cazalla: !s nationalreport.net

10:45:04 assbot: 1 results for 'nationalreport.net' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=nationalreport.net

10:47:05 BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: National Report is like the Onion only stupider. Basically just made up stories.

10:48:36 jurov: ;;later tell MolokoDesk if tao_jones has working replacement of ;;calc I am all for having it here

10:48:36 gribble: The operation succeeded.

10:49:58 RagnarDanneskjol: yes, tao has a number of calc functions... some are listed here.. there are others

10:50:12 RagnarDanneskjol: http://bit.ly/1a6QBcq

10:50:13 assbot: Tao_Jones Quickstart

10:50:51 RagnarDanneskjol: I have all the modules sitting around somewhere - will get them to you this weekend

10:50:53 kakobrekla: BingoBoingo sounded like texas to me

10:50:56 Vexual: .bait

10:52:49 BingoBoingo: ;;bait

10:52:50 gribble: Error: "bait" is not a valid command.

10:52:52 BingoBoingo: !bait

10:53:17 kakobrekla: just use the fly fishing rod.

10:53:38 BingoBoingo: !t m s.limbs

10:53:38 assbot: Quest for vision is a great blessing.

10:53:43 Vexual: either was my wrist hurts

10:58:44 Vexual: i see ykyo there lurking

10:59:42 Vexual: dya think he might develop a sense of humour?

11:05:27 fluffypony: !up csshih

11:05:37 fluffypony: ;;ident

11:05:37 gribble: Nick 'fluffypony', with hostmask 'fluffypony!~fluffypon@coreteam.monero.cc', is not identified.

11:05:39 fluffypony: oh

11:05:57 Vexual: missgivings aside theres lessons unleant

11:06:24 fluffypony: !up csshih

11:06:27 fluffypony: csshih: ping

11:06:44 csshih: fluffypony, hi

11:06:52 Vexual: !down fluffy pony

11:07:13 Vexual: bwahah

11:07:33 fluffypony: csshih: question - since my one SC51 has grown legs, I'm looking at replacing them with the SC52d. any thoughts? what's the alternative for AA singles?

11:08:39 csshih: zebralight dominates in that category imo

11:08:46 csshih: you looking for high-ish cri?

11:08:49 fluffypony: yeah

11:08:57 fluffypony: it's definitely the brightest

11:09:13 Vexual: grown legs? what do your dogs do?

11:09:26 fluffypony: and 4 day run time at 2.1 Lm is insane

11:10:12 fluffypony: Vexual: we're talking about flashlights, not dogs :-P

11:10:50 Vexual: grown legs means gone?

11:11:07 fluffypony: yes

11:11:47 Vexual: presumably stolen

11:12:34 fluffypony: yeah I would imagine so

11:12:43 Vexual: u might need something with d's

11:14:32 Vexual: and a lens that makes ophtamologists rub their hands ith glee

11:15:44 kakobrekla: !up Ukyo

11:15:49 kakobrekla: so how come you are still here?

11:22:01 Vexual: lol anus

11:24:52 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVAetFthS9Y

11:27:47 jurov: <mircea_popescu> [02:52:59] but srlsy jurov, it looks neat and is quite visually appealing. << hahaha. actually, we kept original design done by scrat

11:28:23 kakobrekla: did you have another design done?

11:29:42 kakobrekla: ;;tslb

11:29:53 gribble: Time since last block: 35 minutes and 50 seconds

11:32:02 Vexual: ;;later tell ben_vulpes http://www.supremenewyork.com/interviews/lee_perry

11:32:03 gribble: The operation succeeded.

11:38:48 Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ju-Hedh8Tdw

12:01:07 jurov: kakobrekla, only tuned logo so far

14:07:46 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3312 @ 0.00052471 = 1.7378 BTC [-] {32}

14:08:47 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2585 @ 0.00051042 = 1.3194 BTC [-] {7}

14:30:16 kakobrekla: http://www.thecoinsman.com/2014/08/bitcoin/inside-one-worlds-largest-bitcoin-mines/

14:30:17 assbot: Inside one of the world's largest bitcoin mines - The CoinsmanThe Coinsman

14:30:27 kakobrekla: different from the one last time

15:51:04 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21300 @ 0.00085329 = 18.1751 BTC [-] {3}

16:00:13 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 9.57940004 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 833 satoshi per share

16:03:16 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.59377130 BTC to 15`114 shares, 10545 satoshi per share

16:07:22 mod6: %tslb

16:07:23 atcbot: Time Since Last ATC Block: 1 hour(s), 0 minutes

16:11:44 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: re: 'coinbase insurance' post - little story. recently i had occasion to rent a box at a bank (storage of various paperwork for firm.) the contract was a hilarious read. bank only insures a box for up to 25k usd. and specifically excludes damage from robbery, fire, water... virtually anything.

16:31:17 ben_vulpes: ;;later tell vexual lee scratch perry - what a guy.

16:31:18 gribble: The operation succeeded.

16:55:01 FabianB: $mpexstatus

16:55:03 empyex: FabianB: Proxies: mpex.ws mpex.bz mpex.co mpex.biz mpex.coinbr.com Current MPEx GPG-Key-ID: 02DD2D91

16:57:13 empyex: FabianB: MPEx-Status: mpex.ws (805 milliseconds), mpex.bz (606 milliseconds), mpex.co (813 milliseconds), mpex.biz (584 milliseconds), mpex.coinbr.com (error)

17:09:21 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 70 @ 0.01170512 = 0.8194 BTC [-]

17:15:29 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 24 @ 0.0217227 = 0.5213 BTC [-] {2}

17:58:55 ben_vulpes: !t l s.mpoe

17:58:55 assbot: The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow.

17:59:10 ben_vulpes: !l m s.mpoe

17:59:10 assbot: Last trade for S.MPOE on MPEX was at 0.00085329 BTC [-]

18:00:07 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the insureds will always complain about inadequate coverage, and the insurers will always complain about social inflation.

19:17:27 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7700 @ 0.00085469 = 6.5811 BTC [+]

19:47:56 The20YearIRCloud: safe deposit boxes only have the safety of being in a somewhat controlled environment

19:48:45 The20YearIRCloud: There's a town close to me that once every year auctions off 250-350 safe deposit box contents, you bid per box and don't know what is in them. All are seized from people who either didn't pay up or forgot about em

19:48:58 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 69 @ 0.01069994 = 0.7383 BTC [+] {3}

20:00:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25300 @ 0.00085665 = 21.6732 BTC [+] {2}

20:09:03 decimation: re: safe deposit box << My bank's terms say: "We will not have any liability to you or any third party for incidental or consequential damages. If an arbitration proceeding is commenced, evidence that tends to prove that something was left in the Box on last authorized entry, and was found to be missing on the next entry, will not create a presumption that it was lost because we were negligent, intentional did anything wrong or

20:09:05 decimation: failed to exercise ordinary care. Nor will we be required to prove that the loss was not our fault."

20:10:52 decimation: What has happened to banking in the US is parallel to the "substitution calculations" done by usg for inflation - ie a ground beef patty with filler is the same as a well-cooked steak.

20:14:25 decimation: chetty: do you have any amusing links for us?

20:22:48 chetty: decimation, my net was down, I am behind on my reading today

20:24:35 decimation: chetty: no problem, I always look forward to the interesting nuggets you have on offer

20:34:21 chetty: <decimation> well the good part is I got a lot of work done on Eulora today :)

20:42:41 asciilifeform: decimation: something was left in the Box on last authorized entry, and was found to be missing on the next entry, will not create a presumption that it was lost << conclusion: bury your goods in the forest. fuck bank.

20:43:20 asciilifeform: even ignoring the traditional devil of 'fdr gold confiscatorwagen' (tm) - bank essentially gives itself permission to steal whenever.

20:44:15 The20YearIRCloud: thus why i hate the idea of safe deposit boxes

20:44:34 The20YearIRCloud: my preference would still be a safe sunk into a concrete wall in a basement room that can't be easily accessed

20:45:11 asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: bad idea. in many quite probable scenarios, one loses access to 'own' property first.

20:46:17 asciilifeform: but, as every treatise on the subject invariably begins with, first try to understand what is to be hidden - and from whom

20:47:07 The20YearIRCloud: So what's the best option?

20:47:17 The20YearIRCloud: air/watertight container in nowhere?

20:47:37 asciilifeform: again - depends on answer to above question

20:47:43 asciilifeform: (please don't answer it here!)

20:47:52 The20YearIRCloud: Let

20:48:03 The20YearIRCloud: Let's say you have a honus wagner card

20:48:24 The20YearIRCloud: in an airtight holder

20:49:16 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: you own properties right? how many potential hidey-holes are there?

20:49:38 asciilifeform: again, depends not only on the 'what' but 'from whom'

20:49:48 The20YearIRCloud: Plenty , but the problem there becomes the idea of how you access it in a time of emergency should it ever be needed

20:49:53 The20YearIRCloud: Granted nothing I own has substantial value

20:50:10 decimation: asciilifeform: unfortunately if the "from whom" is usg in its many forms, the answer is largely: nowhere

20:50:26 The20YearIRCloud: One good thing with modern technology is the premise of doing waht they did in breaking bad and putting a 55 gallon drum in the middle of nowhere and record GPS locations

20:50:29 chetty: if you own a bit of property (not really but thats another story) there is a paper trail that shows it ...how you gonna hide anything?

20:51:07 The20YearIRCloud: Like decimation said, it depends on who you're hiding it from

20:52:56 asciilifeform: if enemy knows you have $goodie, and you are captured - might as well mail it in to the crown treasury now - avoid burned starfish later

20:53:12 The20YearIRCloud: Yeah

20:53:27 decimation: us persons simply have no access to 'allodial title', not even as a rental

20:53:30 The20YearIRCloud: i look to what people did during the yugoslovian war for modern examples of waht , and what not to do

20:54:26 The20YearIRCloud: There are states that are working towards true land ownership

20:54:35 asciilifeform: also understand why archaeologists still turn up buried jars of, e.g, roman gold.

20:54:46 The20YearIRCloud: ND and WY i think are two states that allow a person to buy absolute land, with no further taxes involved outside of day of sale, with no government recourse

20:54:57 asciilifeform: treasure - is usually a result of folks who bit the dust without ever getting to make use of the $goodies.

20:55:04 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: generally those states (like nevada) use the words "allodial title" to mean "pre-pay your land tax"

20:55:23 The20YearIRCloud: And in some cases, those states are pretty hands-off when it comes to private property

20:56:06 asciilifeform: forget present-day law. the pertinent question is 'who knows that you have $object'

20:56:34 The20YearIRCloud: That's likely always the best defense

20:57:30 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: When I say "allodial title" I mean something like having the right to arrest anyone - including government employees - on your property

20:57:41 The20YearIRCloud: ah

20:59:17 asciilifeform: very few physical objects are worth the cost of raising an army to keep arbitrarily large horde of orcs away

20:59:35 asciilifeform: if you own such an object, consider liquidating it and using the proceeds to buy passage to neutral country of your choice

21:00:34 BingoBoingo: !b 2

21:00:36 asciilifeform: and buy the obligatory set of new passports / favours

21:01:35 asciilifeform: but if you must:

21:01:46 asciilifeform: here's a recipe i shared with al schwartz once

21:02:15 chetty: <asciilifeform> if you own such an object, consider liquidating it and using the proceeds to buy passage to neutral country of your choice//++

21:02:27 asciilifeform: build a capsule, of the smallest adequate size (al suggested inconel or hastalloy for the material. not cheap - but then again, it'll be a small fraction of the total cost of project)

21:02:43 asciilifeform: capsule must have positive buoyancy when you're done filling it

21:02:47 asciilifeform: weld it shut.

21:03:16 asciilifeform: attach anchor, with sonophone-triggered explosive bolt on chain.

21:03:23 asciilifeform: sink in international waters, record position.

21:03:52 asciilifeform: sonophone trigger should only answer (with 'pop' of anchor chain) in response to key.

21:03:53 decimation: asciilifeform: re: raising an army: The scale of humanity today is such that being a 'land baron' is almost impossible. Consider Mr. Yarvin's quote-of-a-quote: " As the laws of King Ine of Wessex famously put it: We use the term "thieves" if the number of men does not exceed seven, and "brigands" for a number between seven and thirty-five. Anything beyond this is an "army."

21:03:55 asciilifeform: keep key in head.

21:04:10 decimation: hope bolt works after time passes

21:05:23 asciilifeform: i don't know who al might've shared the recipe with, but u.s. navy funded almost exactly this scheme as a mega-project a few years ago.

21:05:23 decimation: when the population is several orders of magnitude less dense, "me and my army say so" is a more realistic source of power

21:05:27 asciilifeform: perhaps it was an obvious idea.

21:05:29 The20YearIRCloud: how do you use a signal that will penetrate the water?

21:05:45 decimation: sound waves can go thousands of miles underwater

21:05:47 asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: hydrophone on wire.

21:05:51 asciilifeform: lower it to the thermocline.

21:06:01 The20YearIRCloud: i guess i missed hydrophone part

21:06:50 Namworld: So I was browsing wikipedia for fun, when I found something funny. Can you spot it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nocturnal_animals

21:06:50 assbot: List of nocturnal animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

21:07:28 asciilifeform: 'programmer.'

21:07:39 *: asciilifeform guessed

21:08:08 asciilifeform: !s night old enemy

21:08:09 assbot: 1 results for 'night old enemy' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=night+old+enemy

21:08:46 Namworld: eheh

21:09:35 *: asciilifeform for the record doesn't own anything worth the cost of ocean capsule.

21:10:40 *: asciilifeform but likes the idea anyway. a few km down in sea is the closes thing nature gives us, afaik, to a 'trap door function' for physical goodies.

21:11:23 asciilifeform: make sure capsule has enough excess buoyancy when triggered to rip itself out of the crud that sunken objects inevitably embed themselves in over time.

21:12:00 asciilifeform: also ensure that the hidey-hole can be found without recourse to satellite navigation.

21:12:13 asciilifeform: ^ might be the hardest part

21:12:28 decimation: asciilifeform: what about "find granitic megalith (like Yosemite), build hut, dissolve deep hole using HF, then fill with concrete?

21:13:26 asciilifeform: drilling a hole creates a very distinct density anomaly that ground-penetrating radar sets (ask a construction co. that deals with underground pipes) readily turns up.

21:13:56 asciilifeform: regardless of what you fill it with later - will read differently from natural rock.

21:14:13 decimation: good point. Notwithstanding the logistics issues. The advantage to your sea-vault is that it could be (in theory) sunk with submarine, which would probably be difficult for any advanced gov't to track.

21:14:28 asciilifeform: no need to buy a submarine

21:14:35 asciilifeform: small sailboat would suffice.

21:14:48 asciilifeform: to deploy device, just chuck it overboard.

21:15:00 decimation: asciilifeform: agreed, modulo lack of interest in being followed, etc

21:15:32 asciilifeform: if you have enemies who will follow your sailboat around in the atlantic, you have other problems that must be dealt with first.

21:16:37 asciilifeform: capsule can also be flown to its resting place.

21:17:03 decimation: like a sono-buoy

21:17:05 asciilifeform: (building a device that can fly back - exercise for alert reader.)

21:17:57 jurov: um.. but with increasing amount of ocean trash, won't you have a problem to locate the capsule once it surfaces from $ kilometers?

21:18:21 asciilifeform: jurov: include beacon.

21:18:32 asciilifeform: (triggered on anchor release, naturally.)

21:19:11 decimation: or sonar beacon

21:19:28 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2508 @ 0.00085583 = 2.1464 BTC [-]

21:19:55 asciilifeform: don't drop the treasure near 'SOSUS'

21:20:09 decimation: which raises the question, is a reasonable hydroarray a feasible addition to said small sailboat?

21:20:29 asciilifeform: no need for this. a simple strobe light should suffice for night search.

21:20:37 asciilifeform: (after capsule pops to the surface)

21:20:55 decimation: true, especially with cheap 'night vision' gear

21:21:42 asciilifeform: if you have an object that is worth, say, 100k to hide and retrieve, go ahead and follow recipe. but also consider the easier 'sell it and run with the money'

21:22:26 decimation: I suppose if the purpose in hiding the object is simply to escape the gulag, it would be better to start planning your escape now

21:23:02 asciilifeform: i later learned that v. n. chelomei (famous soviet rocket designer) proposed the placement of atomic bombs near u.s. east costs using a scheme much like this. (official story - it was vetoed as barbaric)

21:23:24 asciilifeform: by admiralty

21:23:31 asciilifeform: 'we fight like men, not thieves in the night'

21:23:31 decimation: better yet an undersea missile in a tube

21:23:49 asciilifeform: *coasts

21:24:29 asciilifeform: if i recall, he also suggested they be placed in the 'great lakes'

21:24:40 asciilifeform: with idea being, no need to bring them to surface before firing

21:24:43 decimation: in retrospect that kind of "proposal" sounds more like a 'limited hangout' kind of operation

21:24:54 asciilifeform: (at the time, u.s. had industry, and a good portion of it was in that region)

21:24:58 decimation: I suppose if they were close enough to cities that would be feasible

21:26:08 jurov: afaik nukes need periodic maintenance.. would it really be feasible to do it on seabed every so often?

21:26:16 *: asciilifeform suspects that proposal was vetoed as laughable because the nukes in russian embassies make it redundant.

21:26:39 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I was about to point that out, it would be much simpler to rent a 'safehouse' and fill with nukes

21:26:53 asciilifeform: jurov: tritium booster capsule is good for ~20 yrs.

21:27:39 asciilifeform: the point of the proposal, according to legend, was to specifically make use of the water.

21:27:48 asciilifeform: not simply as a hiding place, but as the weapon

21:28:09 decimation: ah, water = fusion fuel

21:28:14 asciilifeform: no

21:28:27 asciilifeform: as steam, to wash the factories with.

21:29:12 asciilifeform: the americans, for some reason unknown to me, pre-empted this project by destroying own industry.

21:29:14 asciilifeform: (why? ask them)

21:31:37 asciilifeform: back to topic - if you really must hide physical objects, read about how kgb and gru hid arms caches in their opponents' territories.

21:31:58 asciilifeform: note that neither 'gps' nor its soviet equivalent existed at the time.

21:32:23 Apocalyptic: "read about how kgb and gru hid arms caches in their opponents' territories." // any particular book in mind ?

21:32:35 decimation: you quoted a story about how they recruited 'agents' in those territories?

21:33:16 asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: there's an account in english-language 'the sword and the shield' (mitrokhin) of one swiss cache that was dug up when he tipped off the local authorities.

21:33:36 asciilifeform: if you somehow learn where one is - don't touch it. they were all mined.

21:33:49 Apocalyptic: ty, will look that up

21:34:07 asciilifeform: worth reading solely for the 'geocaching' craft.

21:34:48 asciilifeform: (i.e., how to bury, given that you will only be able to find the location again using geographical clues - and trees, buildings, etc. can disappear over the decades)

21:35:20 asciilifeform: but really this is one of those 'games where the winning move is not to play.'

21:36:01 asciilifeform: if you are reading this - it is almost certainly a terrible use of your time.

21:36:42 decimation: re: underwater nuke << use tried, worked well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y53vDnNPiA4

21:36:42 assbot: Wahoo and Umbrella - Filmmaker recounts nuclear test - YouTube

21:36:53 decimation: s/use/usg/

21:38:07 decimation: The intention might have been exactly what that video shows: wash away all the people in the city, then occupy

21:38:45 asciilifeform: usg also had, in that period, a fixation with gigantic naval battles

21:39:13 asciilifeform: (when 'war game' simulations revealed that all american ships would perish within hours, they started rigging the 'games')

21:39:17 Apocalyptic: <asciilifeform> if you are reading this - it is almost certainly a terrible use of your time. // terrible as in wasted ?

21:39:22 asciilifeform: yes.

21:39:42 Apocalyptic: i've probably wasted more time on lesser occupations

21:40:10 asciilifeform: not just time.

21:40:20 asciilifeform: satan preserve you if anyone learns you had something worth using this procedure on.

21:40:36 Apocalyptic: oh, I see

21:40:46 asciilifeform: enemy will flay you and everyone you call a friend, to try to learn where it is.

21:41:57 Apocalyptic: It's more out of curiosity than out of potential usefull procedures I may apply in the future

21:42:41 asciilifeform: soviet 'treasure burial' teams have created some very interesting (if dangerous) finds for future archaeologists.

21:43:12 kanzure: lana sator has been doing some of that archeology already

21:43:26 asciilifeform: and i can hardly imagine that other nations didn't crib from their recipe.

21:43:29 kanzure: exploring various abandoned soviet particle accelerators, etc

21:43:34 kanzure: http://lana-sator.livejournal.com/

21:43:36 assbot: , , , ... 18+

21:43:50 kanzure: wha?

21:43:55 asciilifeform: kanzure: nah, those're plain old ruins

21:43:57 decimation: asciilifeform: usg nuclear bombing ships: yeah there's the famous 'nuclear attack on fleet' bomb series at the bikini atoll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv9yS0tRFhI

21:43:57 assbot: Project Crossroads Nuclear tests near the Bikini Atoll - Baker Shot 1946 - YouTube

21:44:25 asciilifeform: anyone who wants to see these ruins - suitcase, airplane, don't wait for the scrap dealers.

21:44:36 asciilifeform: take a geiger along.

21:46:16 decimation: in vegas off the strip there is a 'nuclear testing museum: I recommend going if you find yourself there.

21:47:07 decimation: when I went there was a fellow there who apparently was part of the crew that would enter the underground 'cave' formed by an explosion

21:48:54 decimation: one such experiment: http://www.wipp.energy.gov/science/ug_lab/gnome/gnome.htm

21:48:55 assbot: Project GNOME - Unrelated to WIPP...but nearby

21:52:03 Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, on a related note what's your opinion about 'KGB: the Inside Story' by Christopher Andrew ?

21:52:40 asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: he printed a large number of variations on 'sword & shield', most repeat themselves in a genuinely dreary way

21:53:25 mircea_popescu: this "'KGB: the Inside Story' by Christopher Andrew" string reminds me of the "stop sending niggers then" joke.

21:53:34 asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: much of the material stolen by mitrokhin was either boring, or too juicy to print

21:53:55 mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic do you know it ?

21:54:08 asciilifeform: everybody knows that one.

21:54:10 Apocalyptic: this looks like it was printed first, allegedly in 1990

21:54:44 Apocalyptic: mircea, I'm asking whether it's worth a read, I don't have nor know it

21:54:51 mircea_popescu: i meant the joke

21:55:51 Apocalyptic: I don't

21:56:25 mircea_popescu: cia sends mole to inflitrate kgb. this is apparently successful, but nothing of value is ever obtained.

21:56:38 mircea_popescu: cia sends replacement mole. this also is apparently successful... buit... again

21:57:01 mircea_popescu: by the 5th or so replacement there's a distinct impression with upper cia management that the soviets are like... sending complicated insider jokes over the mole wire.

21:57:20 mircea_popescu: finally a high level defector is taken into a manager's meeting, fed somon fume and asked politely

21:57:33 mircea_popescu: he confirms that yes they knew all about al of them, explains some of the insider jokes

21:57:45 mircea_popescu: "mr devektorovskyi, what are we to do then ?"

21:57:51 mircea_popescu: "i dunno... maybe stop sending niggers ?"

21:58:13 mircea_popescu: what the FUCK has some schmuck by the name cristopher to say about the inside of the kgb ?

21:58:27 asciilifeform: based on supposedly-actual story, where russians noticed that staples in certain passports failed to rust.

21:59:03 mircea_popescu: yea lol

21:59:15 asciilifeform: cristopher << brit. mitrokhin surrendered to the brits.

21:59:20 mircea_popescu: so ?

21:59:52 asciilifeform: muppet, who was given the job of cranking out a tabloid-grade book supposedly based on the 100kg or so of stolen paper.

22:00:05 mircea_popescu: "inside the genovese family, by derparian herparistarian." wtf already. no armenians in sicily.

22:00:13 asciilifeform: lol

22:01:56 mircea_popescu: anyway, one is well advised to evaluate his level of interest on such topics. if it's a passing casual worth 5k words then skimming one of these pulpy offerings is maybe fine. if serious enough to remember names, then probably skimming the original papers is a better bet

22:02:20 mircea_popescu: rather than reading the same "us girl next door in a sheet = roman matron" story re-written over and over 500 times.

22:02:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: very few of the original papers were ever made public as such

22:02:43 asciilifeform: and the authenticity of the ones that were - is, naturally, questionable.

22:03:07 mircea_popescu: srsly when i saw you discussing indexing and searching pdf documents i thought this is what it was for - all that crap is pdf-digitized.

22:03:22 mircea_popescu: outside of digging through secret service archives, why the fuck would anyone put up with pdf.

22:03:25 asciilifeform: some. of the purported crap. yes.

22:04:11 asciilifeform: russians, accustomed to carrying around terabytes of scanned w4r3z for a generation, prefer 'djvu' - for which there is really no substitute.

22:04:45 decimation: djvu is a pretty amazing 'paper' compression tool. proprietary "paperport" works very well too

22:04:45 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

22:04:45 asciilifeform: (fully documented format, originally, afaik, crapped out by 'bell labs')

22:06:05 asciilifeform: 'djvu', even on an aged box, scrolls so quickly one almost can believe he has a microfilm viewer.

22:06:18 asciilifeform: a fat book takes <5 MB typically.

22:07:17 asciilifeform: if you have an 'ocr' system, the format allows for an searchable text 'track.'

22:07:20 decimation: to be fair I think there are methods of using good compression with pdf too. My main point yesterday was about searching the text, for which pdfs are not necessary. after all, if you ocr it, then it ought to exist as a .txt file

22:08:44 asciilifeform: afaik patent trolls succeeded in more or less exterminating acceptable compression for scanned books. djvu was devised by folks who didn't care to comply.

22:09:32 asciilifeform: present-day ocr is notoriously inadequate for scanned historic documents, esp. of poor quality or non-latin scripts.

22:09:47 asciilifeform: plus one generally wants to keep the photos.

22:10:28 mircea_popescu: this would have been a perfect application for ai

22:10:38 asciilifeform: ocr performed on 'djvu' document typically inserts an ascii text track, along with 'bounding boxes' internally

22:10:39 mircea_popescu: "given this string and this set of photos, find the string likelies"

22:10:50 asciilifeform: so document becomes quasi-searchable while viewed in the customary way

22:10:56 mircea_popescu: sadly... no ai.

22:10:57 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I agree, 'djvu' with a text-track would be a pretty good format

22:11:02 mircea_popescu: maybe with quantum computing.

22:11:07 asciilifeform: decimation: it's already in the standard

22:12:38 asciilifeform: modern 'neural network' ocr - at least for latin alphabet - is 99+% accurate. sadly this is not enough to dispense with the original images.

22:13:07 mircea_popescu: i meant "for any script"

22:13:16 mircea_popescu: it's MACHINE intelligence after all neh ?

22:13:20 mircea_popescu: this is where it should shine

22:13:20 asciilifeform: yes, we'd all like 'a pony.'

22:13:35 mircea_popescu: i'd like a fluffy one! :D

22:13:40 fluffypony: lol

22:14:28 asciilifeform: 'i even made a pony-monkey hybrid to please you! what's with all the screaming. you like monkeys, you like ponys. maybe i used too many monkeys... isn't it enough that i ruined a pony making a gift for you!'

22:14:44 decimation: asciilifeform: do you know of a reasonable gui tool to search and index djvu's with text?

22:15:58 *: mircea_popescu sayz sed! awk! then re-reads the gui part, ponders, gets depressed and leaves.

22:16:06 Apocalyptic: heh

22:20:53 jurov: indexing with sed/awk, rly?

22:22:15 ben_vulpes: jurov: *shrug*

22:22:35 ben_vulpes: indexing the blockchain? sed and awk!

22:22:54 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what is the objection ?

22:23:25 decimation: mircea_popescu: sed, awk works fine if you want to search your entire corpus every time

22:23:48 mircea_popescu: and if you don't you can make them make an index file.

22:23:51 ben_vulpes: ain't none

22:24:16 decimation: this is true, seems like it should be a 'solved problem'. I think some implementations of 'hadoop' do exactly this

22:26:24 dignork: decimation: Lucene probably

22:26:51 mircea_popescu: decimation i think the only reason it isn't a solved problem is this sort of argument : http://contravex.com/2014/08/26/infosec-education-because-stephane-bortzmeyer-is-lazy-and-im-not/ ie "usability". once you add that fuzzy requirement smart people get bored and leave,

22:27:05 mircea_popescu: leaving the mess to be handled by the sort of people that make guis.

22:27:23 decimation: true. making a good gui is difficult and thankless work

22:27:35 mircea_popescu: no, it is impossible and thankless work. difficult is one thing.

22:28:01 mircea_popescu: but a good gui is a provab le impossibility. "make me a very hot woman that still wants to be my girlfriend instead of say that guy's"

22:34:52 jurov: remembering names and most used options of gnu text suite is an impossibility, too

22:35:41 decimation: jurov: agreed. I'm always having to consult find, grep, xargs, etc man pages

22:37:17 mircea_popescu: well depends how much thought you put into it

22:37:27 mircea_popescu: i don't readily remember the names of all the women i've been with either.

22:37:46 mircea_popescu: on the upside, once you get it done you can forget about it.

22:39:59 decimation: heh yeah, which results in sites like this: www.commandlinefu.com/

22:40:24 mircea_popescu: "Create a random file of a certain, and display progress along the way."

22:40:30 mircea_popescu: SYNTAX ERROR!

22:40:59 mircea_popescu: MISSING PARAMETER AFTER "certain". please read your commandlinefu documentation and try again!!11

22:42:07 mircea_popescu: and who the hell has cowsay installed omg.

22:42:40 Apocalyptic: "Random data is generated by encrypting /dev/zero" // a curious way to generate random data

22:43:23 jurov: i was intrigued why it isn't possible for computer to keep asking for missing pieces until the task is fully defined

22:44:29 jurov: "Please define `random'"

22:44:44 jurov: would be fund to watch its users

22:44:50 jurov: *fun

22:45:52 mircea_popescu: "random"

22:46:50 jurov: "Random means in no predefined order"

22:47:16 jurov: "Error, please retr with positive definition"

22:47:34 asciilifeform: 'error - not a typewriter' << actual

22:48:05 jurov: lp0 on fire

22:48:06 mircea_popescu: not a bad idea jurov

22:48:28 asciilifeform: lp0 on fire << saw this alive

22:48:37 asciilifeform: (not the message. the condition.)

22:48:58 asciilifeform: mis-spent youth.

22:52:55 asciilifeform: 'usability' << is not necessarily a nonsense word. consider the difference between the linux and bsd userland utils

22:53:05 asciilifeform: in the latter, considerably greater consistency of flags

22:54:56 asciilifeform: but yes, normally when people whine about 'usability,' they want - pony.

22:55:36 asciilifeform: i.e., instrument with user interface of a pencil, but somehow not the functionality of pencil.

22:56:02 asciilifeform: 'the only 'intuitive' interface is the tit - everything after that is learned.'

22:56:43 mircea_popescu: ^

22:56:53 mircea_popescu: (the cunt also)

22:56:57 mircea_popescu: oddly enough.

22:57:08 asciilifeform: on which end.

22:57:23 mircea_popescu: on both ends.

22:57:33 mircea_popescu: dealing with the fallout is learned, but using the things is innate.

22:58:58 mircea_popescu: and for that matter, pencils are horribly unintuitive interfaces. think of all the great drawing in the world, and the poor user buying a pencil in the shop will draw what ? a cat ?

22:59:14 mircea_popescu: this old world sort of nonsense can not endure my friends! i am making a company that will revolutionize drawing!

22:59:26 asciilifeform: -- said herr daguerre

22:59:47 mircea_popescu: shit.

22:59:54 mircea_popescu: i just walked into that didn't .

23:00:01 asciilifeform: did. lol

23:00:17 mircea_popescu: +i

23:02:00 *: asciilifeform always found it interesting that people whine if they try to use his computer, but never think to borrow eyeglasses and then complain

23:02:43 asciilifeform: obligatory:

23:02:45 asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=836

23:02:46 assbot: Loper OS » Programmer’s Editors, Illustrated.

23:04:00 asciilifeform: (moral, for the thick, is that an equivalent of the profession 'optician' does not yet exist for these machines)

23:04:22 asciilifeform: and may not ever exist.

23:07:43 mircea_popescu: dude you and your vi hate.

23:07:55 mircea_popescu: but actually... i find myself using nano a lot moar these days

23:10:38 decimation: I use nano when emacs is too heavy-handed

23:12:07 mircea_popescu: so mebbe there's some meat to the assertion, vi inhabits a middle that doesnt really exist

23:14:18 penguirker: New blog post: http://fraudsters.com/2014/operation-terrorstorm-oneoneeleventy/

23:15:18 mod6: <3 vi/m

23:19:59 cazalla: oh boy

23:22:34 cazalla: sounds like decentralised swatting

23:22:37 decimation: mircea_popescu: yeah your post reminds me of Mr. Yarvin's point about insulting the "protected class".

23:23:23 mircea_popescu: cazalla quite. costs like a bitcoin to do, too.

23:24:16 decimation: one wonders about the total sum of $ that usg has spent just this year searching enemies of the people

23:24:23 mircea_popescu: i have a glass table and an optic mouse.

23:24:25 mircea_popescu: fucking hell.

23:34:05 mircea_popescu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiBYM6g8Tck

23:34:05 assbot: Los del Rio - Macarena (Original Video) [HD] - YouTube

23:35:47 cazalla: i wonder what the chicks in that music video look like now

23:36:15 mircea_popescu: fifty year olds.

23:47:19 cazalla: !s newegg

23:47:20 assbot: 22 results for 'newegg' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=newegg

23:47:50 cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-07-2014#756333

23:47:51 assbot: Logged on 15-07-2014 16:54:16; ThickAsThieves: even newegg is bullish http://promotions.newegg.com/nepro/14-3631/images/imgs/hero1.jpg

23:49:40 cazalla: would it be a safe bet the reason newegg and other sites offer a discount when using bitcoin is that it's easy means of coin for usg? they can print as much $ to give discounts and the coin flows from customers -> newegg -> bitpay -> usg?

23:57:39 The20YearIRCloud: http://dollarvigilante.com/blog/2014/8/27/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly-on-galts-gulch-chile.html

23:57:41 assbot: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly on Galt's Gulch Chile

23:58:13 The20YearIRCloud: so mr berwick knew problems last year and didnt do anything?