Transcript for 31-08-2013, 1578 lines:
00:00:27 jurov: seems a good disguise.
00:03:03 pankkake: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/08/litecoin a better bitcoin, no less
00:03:06 ozbot: Ex-Googler Gives the World a Better Bitcoin | Wired Enterprise | Wired.com
00:03:53 jurov: because it’s a more credible alternative to the growing list of Bitcoin imitators
00:08:40 mircea_popescu: pankkake the press. fit to clean windows with.
00:23:59 mircea_popescu: http://fraudsters.com/2013/mpoe-august-2013-statement/
00:24:02 ozbot: MPOE, August 2013 Statement pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
00:24:27 mircea_popescu: provisional statement, open to comment. will become definitive in a day, and payments owed going out by monday.
00:31:55 jurov: 1`779.1269145 BTC
00:31:57 jurov: O.O
00:32:03 jurov: \o/
00:33:25 mircea_popescu: ya, such a month...
00:35:22 jurov: wow, you really consider the eve bsnss serious
00:35:56 mircea_popescu: hey, it's the billionz!
00:36:18 mircea_popescu: can;'t argye with them billionz.
00:36:30 jurov: haha. goodnight.
00:36:44 mircea_popescu: lter
00:39:13 grubles: lol you have an EVE Online corp mircea_popescu ?
00:39:40 mircea_popescu: grubles yup.
00:39:43 mircea_popescu: it's called 1Bitcoin
00:39:59 grubles: interesting
00:40:21 VanCleef: lolz people feeling the 20 indian lawyers to crush BFL and avalon
00:40:26 grubles: the only reason I used to play that game was to infiltrate corps and steal stuff
00:40:54 mircea_popescu: grubles so do you have a buncha stuff ?
00:41:07 grubles: nah i dont play anymore
00:41:20 mircea_popescu: VanCleef how's that goin' ?
00:41:33 VanCleef: good mate
00:41:45 kakobrekla: didnt you have one such inflitration mp?
00:42:31 mircea_popescu: well was some guy that blew up mah sheep
00:42:42 VanCleef: we will crush our enemy and eat their children
00:42:47 mircea_popescu: not sure how he'd have gotten anything out of it tho
00:45:38 grubles: your sheep?
00:47:08 mircea_popescu: mah sheep
00:47:26 kakobrekla: grubles how do you steal stuff in the game?
00:48:23 mircea_popescu: same way as bitcoin
00:48:29 mircea_popescu: you get idiots to give it to you.
00:49:51 kakobrekla: dont they have wot? :)
00:50:25 VanCleef: it got pretty popular
00:50:51 VanCleef: should bring it over to s.mg
00:50:52 mircea_popescu: nope
00:50:54 mircea_popescu: real primitive schmucks
00:50:56 mircea_popescu: been at it for ten years, they don't have toilet paper.
00:50:58 mircea_popescu: but i plan to weave the wot in.
00:51:18 kakobrekla: how?
00:51:48 mircea_popescu: VanCleef sure, tell your friend to drp by.
00:52:00 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla for instance by requiring wot presence for promoting ppl in soc
01:06:29 grubles: kakobrekla, rise up enough positions in a corp for them to trust you enough to give you access to tons of ore / materials / blueprints / ships etc.
01:06:45 grubles: then you do them dirty
01:09:16 mircea_popescu: grubles i gout about a billion in ore in corp hangar right now.
01:09:41 grubles: i wouldnt worry much about ore
01:09:45 grubles: since its a bitch to transport
01:10:29 mircea_popescu: it's metal not ore.
01:10:34 mircea_popescu: mah bad.
01:10:41 mircea_popescu: i just learned how to refine the shit.
01:10:52 grubles: ah
01:11:20 ThickAsThieves: kinda fun http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1lfobc/i_am_a_timetraveler_from_the_future_here_to_beg/
01:11:44 mircea_popescu: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=heroin%20shooting%20in%20the%20eye%C2%AD%20ball&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CEoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fanswers.yahoo.com%2Fquestion%2Findex%3Fqid%3D20060907171058AA40dqM&ei=wkIhUuSwKZKHswac24HYCw&usg=AFQjCNE7q3tt1XJEm8CEzlMTTa0eO9KODQ&bvm=bv.51495398,d.Yms
01:11:49 mircea_popescu: uh sorry
01:12:00 ozbot: Is it safe to shoot heroin into your eyeball? - Yahoo Answers
01:12:45 jborkl: seems like a good idea
01:12:51 mircea_popescu: what could possibly go wrong.
01:16:01 jborkl: uggh spentbthe day working like a 110 degrees here, also setting up blades. i wish they had made them easier to mount
01:17:23 mircea_popescu: jborkl listen, there was a guy with heat stroke
01:17:34 mircea_popescu: don't mine in overwarm places
01:18:13 jborkl: well it isbhot as shit here
01:18:38 jborkl: i need a cave like activeminer
01:18:50 mod6: where's that? arizona?
01:18:57 jborkl: texaa
01:19:20 mod6: ah, werd.
01:19:35 mircea_popescu: lol actiminer dreamed up a cave for themselves ?
01:19:56 jborkl: they have pics and everythinh
01:20:01 mircea_popescu: link ?
01:20:21 jborkl: lemme see if i can find it
01:23:40 jborkl: i cant find it mp, butbthey have a cave in alabama? cant remember the state
01:24:07 mircea_popescu: they "have" a cave ? how ? isn't it protected by some authority ? did they buy or lease ?
01:24:11 jborkl: i saw a picture so you know it is true
01:24:14 jborkl: lol
01:24:15 mircea_popescu: does it flood ? etc.
01:24:24 mircea_popescu: what if bats move in.
01:24:38 mircea_popescu: what if they accidentally kill a migratory swan with the fans on a case
01:24:53 jborkl: supposed to be some huge dataxenter that uses it causebit is like 58 degrees
01:25:20 jborkl: endangered beetles are all the rage
01:26:23 mircea_popescu: is it in russell cave ?
01:26:25 mircea_popescu: :D
01:27:16 jborkl: man that was a lot of work getting those setup before the long weekend
01:27:28 jborkl: got them this am, all done
02:17:22 thestringpuller: .d
02:17:23 ozbot: 65750060.14908 | Next Diff in 874 blocks | Estimated Change: 21.8359% in 4d 17h 39m 3s
02:28:32 grubles: damn 63 btc
02:31:37 mircea_popescu: need bitcoinz to buy mpex seats with.
02:32:26 qxzn: mircea_popescu how much is a seat?
02:32:38 mircea_popescu: 30
02:33:24 qxzn: that's not so bad
02:33:28 qxzn: does that price ever change?
02:33:37 qxzn: like if the exchange rate changes a lot?
02:34:00 mircea_popescu: it does go up.
02:34:03 mircea_popescu: was 20 for a while in 2012
02:34:19 mircea_popescu: eventually it will exceed 20mn and no more seats will be created.
02:34:21 qxzn: heh
02:34:30 qxzn: how many seats do you have now?
02:34:45 qxzn: like how many have been bought
02:36:04 ozbot: MPEx paid accounts pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
02:36:07 mircea_popescu: that's like the most recent discussion
02:36:23 mircea_popescu: you can go through the reports since then to figure it out
02:38:02 qxzn: I am too lazy to do that
02:38:38 qxzn: Rough estimate from your graph is in the 100-200 zone
02:54:05 mircea_popescu: something like that back then.
02:57:43 VanCleef: did assbot use to display mpex trades?
03:00:24 mod6: VanCleef: it always has, and still does.
03:03:20 VanCleef: okey, i only see btct and havelock
03:04:02 mircea_popescu: nature of bitcoin, you gotta dig through a whole lot of bs to find the real stuff.
03:06:36 Duffer1: ha
03:10:02 thestringpuller: you mod6
03:10:04 thestringpuller: where u at
03:10:19 mod6: in the wirez
03:10:24 thestringpuller: OH NOEZ
03:10:31 mod6: m00
03:10:37 thestringpuller: otter
03:10:39 thestringpuller: slap slap
03:10:40 thestringpuller: lol
03:11:35 mod6: heheh
03:12:08 mod6: bitotterbot swims in teh ether
03:14:22 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu is there anyone who will purchase 1BTC shares for Isk?
03:14:23 thestringpuller: ;D
03:14:35 mircea_popescu: already happened.
03:15:48 thestringpuller: but does it happen recurringly?
03:15:57 thestringpuller: as in at any time is someone wanting to buy stock?
03:16:07 thestringpuller: (liquidity I guess is the word, or liquidity with ISK)
03:16:27 mircea_popescu: well yes, im mming it currently
03:16:37 mircea_popescu: tho in the future i imagine there'll be people doing it
03:16:56 thestringpuller: cool that's gangsta
03:16:59 thestringpuller: you got me wanting to paly
03:17:12 thestringpuller: in fact I'm going to start playing again because of that
03:17:19 thestringpuller: jurov
03:17:22 thestringpuller: where u at
03:18:06 mircea_popescu: lol
03:20:45 mod6: i need to perhaps build my first gaming machine ever so i can play eulora ... i might start or try out eve too. but im such a n00b.
03:21:38 mod6: i was like, a super-n00b when testing eulora.
03:24:07 thestringpuller: Eve you can just trade shit that the corp has in stock if you know the supply and demand of the zones.
03:24:58 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: does 1BTC have any miners?
03:25:03 mircea_popescu: yup
03:25:23 mircea_popescu: there's bns worth of shit in the corp stores, and a policy enabling trading in the first place.
03:25:31 Pickaxe_Included: hi guys
03:25:34 mircea_popescu: mod6 haha i corrupt
03:25:40 mod6: haha.
03:25:44 afrotec: hi Pickaxe_Included
03:25:53 Pickaxe_Included: on bets of bitcoin if i bet on my own new bet and it gets rejected....do i get my btc back?
03:25:59 Neil: bitbet down
03:25:59 mircea_popescu: yes.
03:26:04 afrotec: believe so
03:26:17 mircea_popescu: Neil i see it ?
03:26:24 Pickaxe_Included: na its up for me too
03:26:33 mircea_popescu: Pickaxe_Included you get it usually on the next block.
03:26:34 Neil: Hmm weird
03:26:39 Pickaxe_Included: i screwed up and put in a duplicate bet that ends sooner
03:26:59 Pickaxe_Included: well it matches another active bet
03:27:01 Neil: Down for me; other sites are fine.
03:27:10 mircea_popescu: neil try a web proxy ?
03:27:32 Pickaxe_Included: does anyone 'make a living' off of bets of bitcoin? like could i in theory create 100 new bets everyday and the winners get me paid?
03:27:39 Neil: It was there 5 mines ago; I'll just wait a few mins.#
03:28:06 Neil: Now it's back. *shrug*
03:29:06 Neil: mircea_popescu: If I want to bet on the side the house gave me at the start of the bet (i.e. the 0.0x freebie) can I send to the send to address for those house ones too, just like one I request myself?
03:30:17 Neil: Never mind I'll just get a new address
03:38:10 mircea_popescu: Neil wauirt what ?!
03:38:36 mircea_popescu: oh cause the house bet is linked to you hmm. i think we need to poll kakobrekla on thios one
03:39:05 Neil: Yeah not obvious; and I don't want to be a source of gracious donations to shareholders :)
03:39:44 Neil: I've successfully reused addresses I generated several times; just not sure about house ones
03:41:46 mircea_popescu: those you generate are safe for sure.
03:42:02 mircea_popescu: in principle these should also, but i dun wanna mislead.
03:50:50 ThickAsThieves: hehe that jorash guy asking the btc-anal channel the same quantum-mine-all-the-coins
03:51:01 ThickAsThieves: "<xiando> jorash: that would obviously be the end of btc"
03:51:34 mod6: he was in here the other day talking about some asset he created for a quantum emulator or something
03:51:38 mircea_popescu: i gave him the task of using the an0 to make himself a budget for the thing
03:51:59 mircea_popescu: with the observation that the difference between a report and a budget is simply that one's forward facing whereas the other reflects the past.
03:52:02 mircea_popescu: im curious what comes of it.
03:52:15 ThickAsThieves: he tried getting private funding through me, and asicminer, he's fishing in every pond he can dip his toes in
03:52:38 mircea_popescu: a well.
03:52:53 mircea_popescu: if people were more obedient and less inclined to self-manage the us wouldn't be collapsing in the first place.
03:52:54 Diablo-D3: who
03:56:33 ThickAsThieves: btc foundation lawyer, santori, reports on the meeting they had with US gov agencies
03:56:36 ozbot: E37 – Meeting Mastercoin | Lets Talk Bitcoin
03:56:40 ThickAsThieves: about 12min in is where he starts
03:56:56 ThickAsThieves: sounds like pretty much every possible giv dept was there\
03:56:59 ThickAsThieves: gov*
03:57:10 mircea_popescu: that's a fact.
03:58:58 ThickAsThieves: fincen, irs, fdic, fed reserve, offic of comp of currency, fbi, dea, ss, dhs
03:59:53 mircea_popescu: not like they have anything else to do. taxpayers pay, bureaucrats dick about all day.
04:00:10 mod6: lol
04:02:28 ThickAsThieves: steange bitcoin ad: http://letstalkbitcoin.com/wp-content/uploads/useful_banner_manager_banners/9-EasyDNSLessCrazyGreen.jpg
04:02:32 ThickAsThieves: stange*
04:02:35 ThickAsThieves: strange*
04:02:55 hotsocks: lol
04:57:48 fanquake: #github
05:04:01 mod6: \
05:04:07 mod6: oops
07:31:21 thestringpuller: .d
07:31:21 ozbot: 65750060.14908 | Next Diff in 830 blocks | Estimated Change: 22.4804% in 4d 10h 57m 35s
07:31:28 thestringpuller: oh wow
08:53:01 Neil: ;;nethash
08:53:36 Neil: thestringpuller: Diff change will be over 30%; likely 85m or more
08:54:06 Neil: Insane how much hash power is coming online
08:54:23 Neil: Almost feel sorry for a govt wanting to do a 51%
08:55:03 Neil: ;;nethash
08:57:58 ozbot: Bitcoin Address 142BHpdq4wey7PC3Cp5QiUoshF19u3yvHN
08:58:14 Neil: Some dude keeps sending himself satoshis and paying 0.0005 BTC for the privelege. Why?
08:58:51 Neil: Apparently the new dust output rules aren't being respected by all miners, at least if you're willing to pay 0.0005 BTC for it.
10:19:06 thestringpuller: !last btctc dms.selling
10:19:35 thestringpuller: !last btctc dms.mining
10:19:51 thestringpuller: ;;calc 0.0033 + 0.01242
10:24:46 thestringpuller: ;;calc (0.0033 + 0.01242 + (0.00003894)
10:24:53 thestringpuller: ;;calc 0.0033 + 0.01242 + (0.00003894)
10:27:49 thestringpuller: ;;calc 0.0033 + 0.01242 + (0.00003894)
12:19:12 thestringpuller: !last btctc dms.mining
12:19:16 thestringpuller: !last btctc dms.selling
12:19:49 thestringpuller: assbot should collect the ask and sell
12:20:00 thestringpuller: ;;bc,24hprc
12:20:14 thestringpuller: but thats just my opinion man
12:25:23 thestringpuller: !last btctc DMS.PURCHASE
12:30:43 kakobrekla: lol
12:30:47 kakobrekla: this is pretty fucked up
12:30:54 ozbot: [BitFunder] G.ASICMINER-PT
12:31:15 kakobrekla: seems like a bunch of kids jerking eachothers dicks
12:31:46 ThickAsThieves: yeah it's gotten out of hand
12:32:05 kakobrekla: one more butthurt than the other also
12:33:54 thestringpuller: ThickAsThieves can we talk a moment before my battery goes nuts
12:34:06 ThickAsThieves: the issues at hand are all easily solved
12:34:24 ThickAsThieves: just requires a few minutes attention
12:35:22 ThickAsThieves: talk
12:37:43 mircea_popescu: dexX7 it's fascinating how everything starts out "the largest"
12:43:06 ThickAsThieves: and funny how website scams cant help but look like scams merely by their design style
12:43:56 mircea_popescu: and further funny how nobody seems to realise that starting your life by comitting to a hugely ridiculous and vastly verifiable lie is pretty bad for your credibility.
12:44:27 mircea_popescu: what if they're successful, ad absurdum ? i'll meet the guy at a conference in 2023 and say, o, you're the guy that was lieing in 2013 ?
12:44:33 mircea_popescu: what's he gonna do then, herp at me really hard ?
12:45:11 ThickAsThieves: well he will ask you to eat his pudding
12:45:24 mircea_popescu: aok
12:46:44 mircea_popescu: ;;google "eat my pudding"
12:46:57 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves am i missing some subtext thar ? :D
12:47:46 ThickAsThieves: ;;google proof is in the pudding
12:48:12 ThickAsThieves: sorry, i was twisting it
12:48:21 ThickAsThieves: i wondered if it would translate
12:48:35 mircea_popescu: a a
12:48:49 mircea_popescu: well so duh, i'll link to logs.bitcoin-assets.com.
12:48:52 mircea_popescu: not like it's hard to prove.
12:49:02 ThickAsThieves: sorta like the end justifies the means, in common use
12:49:20 mircea_popescu: but what the fuck is the end ? making sure everyone takes you for a scammer ?
12:49:36 ThickAsThieves: no, making more money than you
12:50:06 mircea_popescu: so fucking stupid that shit.
12:50:20 mircea_popescu: why not just have a bigger penis than me. what the fuck happened to "doing something useful"
12:50:22 ThickAsThieves: the way people are these days, scamming isnt always hard to shake
12:50:38 ThickAsThieves: even OJ Simpson had a movie career after killing his wife
12:51:55 mircea_popescu: anyway, so what's the plan, it'll call itself BiTBeTeC or BTBTC for short and print somewhere a line on the website going OVER 1500000000 BTC BET !!!
12:52:13 ThickAsThieves: hehe
12:52:18 mircea_popescu: it feels like we're back to the old webpage days when people were adding visitor counters.
12:52:37 ThickAsThieves: this is one point of yours that i havent bought into yet
12:52:41 ThickAsThieves: i CAN believe it
12:52:42 mircea_popescu: i guess it's my mistake that in adding volume lines on the actual sites i somehow gave the idiots the impression that a "real good copy" TM consists of LARGER DIGITS
12:52:48 ThickAsThieves: but without evidence it's hard
12:52:54 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves which ?
12:53:04 ThickAsThieves: that the exchange might be complicit
12:53:16 ThickAsThieves: actively
12:53:23 mircea_popescu: theswede has 50k btc of his own to just throw back and forth ?
12:53:40 ThickAsThieves: the labcoin IPO threw around about 15k
12:54:05 ThickAsThieves: twas btcgarden that was about 25k
12:54:12 mircea_popescu: i recall you were here a month or so back when we did the math, and it was something ridiculous top the tune of 50k
12:54:27 ThickAsThieves: when you added the current scams
12:54:31 ThickAsThieves: was around there
12:54:43 mircea_popescu: but anyway : there's two ways this can work. either burnside gave them "margin" on account that "he knows what he's doing" and "that's what exchanges do" iho,
12:54:55 ThickAsThieves: doubtful
12:55:21 mircea_popescu: or else he has a security hole that he's too ashamed to admit.
12:55:51 ThickAsThieves: surely even he could not survive 40k btc from thin air
12:55:55 ThickAsThieves: or even half that
12:56:01 mircea_popescu: these'd be the constructions that i can see making him two different flavours of stupid rather than actively complicit.
12:56:03 ThickAsThieves: or a quarter
12:56:07 mircea_popescu: exactly.
12:56:11 mircea_popescu: so play along buster.
12:56:30 mircea_popescu: and what is this "Even he" ?
12:56:40 ThickAsThieves: you think it's less likely that it's the scammers throwing their weight around?
12:56:42 ThickAsThieves: for example
12:56:50 mircea_popescu: burnside is a minor shit that ran a ltc exchange for a while to little avail, and then jumped on trying to make a glbse clone last year.
12:57:01 ThickAsThieves: suppose ActM, BTCGarden, Labcoin, and maybe some older ones are all the same group
12:57:06 mircea_popescu: when did he become some sort of authority ? you probably have more assets than he ever did.
12:57:10 ThickAsThieves: surely theyd have amassed that kind of coin
12:57:20 ThickAsThieves: to now throw momentum into their scams
12:57:23 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves they are mostly same group i'm pretty sure.
12:57:35 mircea_popescu: nah, not quite.
12:57:50 ThickAsThieves: for example,
12:57:59 mircea_popescu: i keep track of what scammers got.
12:57:59 ThickAsThieves: the labcoin IPO was 7k
12:58:08 mircea_popescu: giga split with a lot of coin, but he's bought miners for them
12:58:12 ThickAsThieves: and i saw 15k of deposits
12:58:18 ThickAsThieves: orders*
12:58:21 ThickAsThieves: so I played
12:58:24 mircea_popescu: owens etc group never made enough, kenna split with a lot vbuyt sold / lost most
12:58:24 ThickAsThieves: and banked
12:58:32 mircea_popescu: there just isn't the coin available in scammor camp
12:59:15 ThickAsThieves: i think its safe to say that 7k coins got extracted from labcoin buyers
12:59:27 mircea_popescu: i guess there's always the possibility that some smooth operator got the wool over the eyes of a backer, and bought a bunch of coins to finance a set of scams.
12:59:27 ThickAsThieves: which could easily have made up part of the btcgarden buyin
12:59:42 ThickAsThieves: add ActM to that
12:59:43 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves i think that'd be way overshot.
12:59:48 ThickAsThieves: and you start getting there
13:00:00 mircea_popescu: the muppets don't have that much. my guess is 500 to 2k on the brightest side.
13:00:28 ThickAsThieves: i think you underestimate how much coin is up for grabs
13:00:40 mircea_popescu: well if we agreed it wouldn't be fun.
13:00:44 ThickAsThieves: :)
13:05:20 mircea_popescu: what movie career did oj simpson have ?!
13:05:42 mircea_popescu: what the fuck, i have raw vids of about a dozen girls im probably going to straight delete as i can't be bothered to have edited
13:05:43 Diablo-D3: the naked gun
13:05:49 mircea_popescu: do THEY have movie careers too ?!
13:06:41 ThickAsThieves: he had a few random cameos
13:06:47 Diablo-D3: the naked gun
13:06:49 Diablo-D3: seriously
13:07:43 LorenzoMoney: actually this is it http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001740/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
13:07:56 LorenzoMoney: he was in the naked gun, the towering inferno, capricorn one
13:08:11 LorenzoMoney: Frogmen, CIA Code Name: Alexa
13:08:17 Diablo-D3: wait, he wa sin other shit too?
13:08:19 Diablo-D3: WHY
13:08:22 LorenzoMoney: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001740/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
13:08:23 Diablo-D3: he was just a second rate football player
13:08:26 ThickAsThieves: those are old movies
13:08:26 ozbot: O.J. Simpson - IMDb
13:08:35 ThickAsThieves: mostly he only was in naked gun
13:08:37 Diablo-D3: the only reason he was in the naked gun is because they needed a dumb nigger
13:08:43 LorenzoMoney: no mostly he was in these: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001740/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
13:09:15 ThickAsThieves: pay attention
13:09:22 ThickAsThieves: the relevance is AFTER he murdered
13:09:41 ThickAsThieves: not every movie he ever showed up in
13:10:32 LorenzoMoney: Oh I have been insulted by TAT
13:10:33 Diablo-D3: ThickAsThieves: if the gloves dont fit, you must acquit
13:10:43 LorenzoMoney: the question was what Movies has OJ SImpson been in
13:10:54 Diablo-D3: and the answer is
13:10:57 Diablo-D3: one, the naked gun
13:11:04 Diablo-D3: b movies no one has heard of never count
13:11:05 LorenzoMoney: just shut up and make me money
13:11:24 Diablo-D3: just shut up and make me oil, Lorenzo
13:11:43 LorenzoMoney: Diablo-D3: that was so clever! wait while I stand in shock
13:11:56 LorenzoMoney: a cultural reference that uses my name. Hip is written all over you
13:12:57 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: could i push you s.mpoe in exchamge fr isk to pay my eve subscription?
13:13:15 ThickAsThieves: being told to pay attention is not an insult
13:13:33 ThickAsThieves: but indicitave of your personality
13:13:45 ThickAsThieves: is your reaction
13:13:59 thestringpuller: exchange* for*
13:14:12 ThickAsThieves: sure
13:14:16 Diablo-D3: no* one* cares*
13:14:42 ThickAsThieves: you are a unique *
13:15:28 Diablo-D3: I see what you did thar.
13:15:40 Diablo-D3: I think unicode actually has a snowflake character, btw
13:16:27 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller yep
13:16:59 Scrat: ;;asks 100000000
13:17:20 Scrat: clowncar exchange running out of btc
13:18:05 mircea_popescu: clowncar exchange lmao
13:18:18 ThickAsThieves: ;;ticker
13:18:25 ThickAsThieves: we're rich!
13:18:55 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves speak for yourself fatcat. i'm poverty stricken in my poverty strike.
13:19:52 ThickAsThieves: shoulda used gox
13:20:37 LorenzoMoney: Oh a confession
13:39:15 mircea_popescu: there should be a meme thing, "hey yo, we know you're poor so we put some poverty in your poverty so you can be poor while you're poor"
13:40:08 kakobrekla: id put some poverty in my poverty but im all out
13:40:19 mircea_popescu: lol
13:40:20 kakobrekla: so porr.
13:40:22 kakobrekla: poor
13:40:35 mircea_popescu: watch that porr means sexy in slovenian or some shit
13:40:51 kakobrekla: it just might
13:45:04 mircea_popescu: ThickAsThieves anyway, wasn't btcgarden fully refunded ?
13:45:24 dexX7: ipo price + fees
13:45:50 mircea_popescu: so consequently it can't count in our discussion.
13:46:40 dexX7: what's the topic?
13:46:59 dexX7: "how are scams on btct done?"
13:52:39 mircea_popescu: something like that
13:54:39 mircea_popescu: i guess this is pretty lulzy in retrospect.
13:54:41 ozbot: BitBet - USD/BTC exchange rate to top $125 at 23:45 September 16, 2013
13:54:54 Diablo-D3: ;;ticker
13:55:00 Diablo-D3: wtf here we go again
13:56:27 Scrat: "good goy, now spend more of your shekels on my exchange"
13:59:32 mircea_popescu: kickass title.
13:59:36 ozbot: Lawsuite against BFL
14:28:36 ThickAsThieves: <mircea_popescu> so consequently it can't count in our discussion. <<<< possibly, but it's a wtf worth exploring
14:28:42 ThickAsThieves: it was like 25k btc
14:28:45 ThickAsThieves: and it sold out
14:29:10 ThickAsThieves: odd that i'm one of the few people wondering where the hell that much coin came from
14:29:32 ThickAsThieves: for an IPO with barely any press and no real history
14:32:41 mircea_popescu: you have to admit the "we made it up" is by far the simpler explanation
14:32:45 mircea_popescu: occam razor and all that.
14:39:04 mircea_popescu: pankkake lol what forums didja get banned on?
15:04:32 dexX7: well btc-garden has some history in china and was probably only unknown to us westeners
15:11:21 pankkake: mircea_popescu: mostly French forums (one multiple times). I remember blogs (last one was Adria Richards, even banned me from reading), what.cd
15:11:38 kakobrekla: what did you do on what?
15:11:57 mircea_popescu: lmao what! what'd you do to the richards character
15:12:01 pankkake: piss off people?
15:12:23 kakobrekla: hehe
15:12:23 pankkake: I wrote that her actions were actually discouraging women to get info the profession
15:12:28 pankkake: it wasn't even harsh
15:12:29 mircea_popescu: dexX7 not quite.
15:12:51 kakobrekla: pankkake you seem to be a natural
15:12:52 mircea_popescu: pankkake well yeah, the sane criticisms are the worst from what i see.
15:13:01 mircea_popescu: anyway, where is that thing
15:13:06 mircea_popescu: ;;google trolling something awful competition
15:18:44 pankkake: ok actually my comment was harsh
15:18:57 pankkake: The only thing to retain from this article: don’t talk at a tech conference if there is a woman nearby.
15:19:00 pankkake: Now, will this help women get into tech? Of course not, they will feel shunned. I’d like to have more women there, but batshit insane feminists will not allow it.
15:24:15 mircea_popescu: lol okay then
15:24:36 mircea_popescu: the problem is not batshit insane feminists. the problem is there's a group of morons, adria richards being a fine example, sandra sharp being anothjer fine example
15:24:56 pankkake: well the problem is the people who listen, they're larger
15:25:02 mircea_popescu: who KNOW they dion't belong there, and KNOW that actual competent women a) would make them look bad and b) aren't likely to bother arguing politics with them
15:25:18 mircea_popescu: and so they make this desperate ploy essentially union-like in its nature
15:25:33 mircea_popescu: to carve themselves a little territory that may be defended on any other grounds but intellectual ability and professional competence
15:25:39 mircea_popescu: such as, cunt. that'd be good.
15:26:20 mircea_popescu: the same shit is going on in the states with the race politics thing, there's some incompetent niggers whio would like to exclude competent black people from jobs
15:26:37 mircea_popescu: like, you know, the low effort high pay ones such as state senator.
15:29:46 KRS1: thats why a nigga like me always be on my grind, im just a squirrel in this world tryin to get a nut...ya feel me.
15:30:30 kakobrekla: looking for nuts? theres plenty on teh forums.
15:30:32 mircea_popescu: i don't, i'm jus' guessin'
15:55:41 ThickAsThieves: corporate espionage! http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/31/4679260/htc-top-designers-reportedly-in-custody-after-stealing-trade-secrets
16:03:46 mircea_popescu: heh
16:11:19 ThickAsThieves: ;;ticker
16:38:44 FabianB: $avg
17:05:28 fractal: any news on this bet? http://bitbet.us/bet/520/bitfury-eu-august-orders-will-ship-before-1st/
17:06:01 fractal: is the resolution exactly 7 hours away?
17:11:36 mircea_popescu: it's not gonna happen until after that cuttof.
17:15:15 fractal: ok thanks. how long does the usual process take?
17:16:26 mircea_popescu: i don't know it's ever been more than a day or two
17:16:51 fractal: punin: "We also found a noticeable voltage drop on the IOVDD chain when all 16 cards are plugged in (down to 1V66 from 1V8). This will get fixed (hopefully) in next revision on M-boards, that is already in production. This should help lower the errors and noise on Bus D." looks like their 400Gh units are underperforming on hashrate...
17:17:33 fractal: ok... so if people post to the forums who receive orders tomorrow, those wouldn't be included in the bet timeframe, right?
17:19:39 mircea_popescu: right.
17:20:11 fractal: ok... and in which timezone is the cutoff?
17:23:44 fractal: ;)
17:23:44 mircea_popescu: what;'s the bet say anyway, by sept 1st ? on sept 1st ?
17:23:44 mircea_popescu: before 1st. so midnight gmt
17:23:44 fractal: sept 1 happens 24 times in different timezones
17:23:44 fractal: gmt ok thanks
17:23:44 ozbot: FAQ BitBet
17:23:44 fractal: ah didnt see that. ok. thanks
19:04:00 seangeng_: looks like #bitfunder 's assetbot is outputing data now
19:04:09 seangeng_: i'll see if i can write something that captures it's output
19:04:38 kakobrekla: why are you doing the same thing again when its stupid way to do it for the first time around
19:04:52 kakobrekla: ah well
19:04:56 pankkake: because there's no better way? :)
19:05:16 kakobrekla: i has socket
19:05:21 tyrion70: use the websocket maybe?
19:07:14 dexX7: websocket from where?
19:08:18 tyrion70: from the site?
19:08:34 FabianB_: all but bf
19:08:36 dexX7: coinflow or bf?
19:09:04 tyrion70: bf
19:09:45 dexX7: didn't know they provide one
19:10:22 tyrion70: that's how the site works..
19:10:26 Anduck: ooo
19:10:28 seangeng_: i messaged ukyo to ask him
19:10:32 Anduck: mircea_popescu: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.msg3051503#msg3051503
19:10:51 mircea_popescu: can i has summary ?
19:11:06 Anduck: check the link
19:11:11 Anduck: a delivered 400gh unit
19:11:33 mircea_popescu: ahaha working better without fans!
19:11:34 mircea_popescu: golden
19:11:43 mircea_popescu: hey, buttcoin ppl : pls to include in your next update ty.
19:12:05 mircea_popescu: Anduck it does 499 gh actually ?
19:12:29 Anduck: 400gh and 25gh unit together does that i think
19:12:58 Anduck: and that in total draws less than 400 watts
19:13:08 mircea_popescu: I'm still tweaking my units manually. I'd say 380GH from 16 H-boards is possible.
19:13:09 mircea_popescu: aj
19:13:33 Anduck: yeah
19:13:39 Anduck: what about that?
19:14:14 mircea_popescu: that shit's golden.
19:14:16 ozbot: [ANN] Bitfury ASIC sales in EU and Europe
19:14:22 Anduck: yup
19:15:09 Anduck: but i must again say: he ordered 400gh unit and 25gh unit and got both, both performing as advertised (except he got extra hardware for that)
19:15:28 fractal: so, that basically proves that the 400GH unit missed specs.
19:15:30 fractal: - 365GH vs. 60GH.
19:15:31 Anduck: just trying to push the bet wording once again so there's _no_ misunderstanding
19:15:46 fractal: 400Gh unit did not perform as advertised
19:15:55 Anduck: that's not the full 400 gh unit in the pic, it's a full m-board with 16 h-cards.
19:15:56 Anduck: lol
19:16:14 fractal: which is what was advertised as a '400Gh' unit, according to the website
19:16:18 Anduck: the 400gh unit he bought is splitted in 2 m-boards, 20 h-cards
19:16:23 fractal: nope
19:16:26 Anduck: yeah they didn't meet hardware specs, true
19:16:41 Anduck: but the bet was about the delivered unit. think about BFL
19:16:46 fractal: they didn't meet hardware specs because the hardware underperformed -- and that is what the bet is about.
19:17:11 mircea_popescu: lol hello you two.
19:17:26 Anduck: BFL says they will deliver a 5gh hashing unit which eats X amount of watts. they deliver a bigger sized 5gh hashing unit that eats X amount of watts. customer got the advertised performance
19:17:58 Anduck: but if BFL says they deliver 5gh hashing unit that eats X amount of watts and delivers same sized unit that eats X+10 watts, they haven't met the advertised performance
19:18:09 Anduck: BFL was just used here as an example of an asic supplier
19:18:12 fractal: http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/ -- 400Gh unit -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- as advertised -- the hardware did not perform as advertised.
19:18:35 Anduck: it was about the W/GH as the brackets say
19:18:36 Anduck: :I
19:18:42 fractal: http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/ -- 400Gh unit -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- as advertised -- the hardware did not perform as advertised. The bet clearly states that the hardware must perform as advertised. All conditions of the bet were not met. Therefore the bet is a NO.
19:18:47 Anduck: not about amount of hardware needed for the unit. it as about the _performance_
19:18:54 fractal: Thats not what the bet says
19:19:01 fractal: and the only thing that matters is what the bet says
19:19:30 fractal: bitbet.us has to go by the WORDing of the BET. not by what else 'it could mean'
19:19:36 Anduck: the bet says people who order 400 gh will get 400 gh and it will perform as promised!!!!
19:19:43 fractal: no, it doesn't
19:19:53 Anduck: but that's what the bet says?
19:20:24 Anduck: they failed to meet the LOOK and AMOUNT of hardware but NOT the PERFORMANCE
19:20:29 Anduck: and the bet was about PERFORMANCE
19:20:37 fractal: and it failed on performance.
19:20:51 Anduck: how the fuck it failed on performance if it eats less than 1 W/GH as promised???
19:20:51 fractal: -- 400Gh unit -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- as advertised -- the hardware did not perform as advertised.
19:21:07 Anduck: yeah that's where they describe the hardware the unit includes
19:21:15 Anduck: and they failed that part since they had to add more hardware for the unit
19:21:24 Anduck: but they STILL did NOT fail the PERFORMANCE
19:21:32 fractal: There are 2 performance metrics -- hashrate, and wattage-- to meet performance the hashrate must be higher then advertised, and the wattage must be lower. The hashrate missed targets.
19:21:41 fractal: Anduck: sorry, but thats not what the bet says.
19:21:48 Anduck: but people got the hashrate they ordered?
19:21:54 Anduck: how did they miss that target?
19:21:56 fractal: Anduck: thats not what the bet says.
19:22:30 Anduck: but it says that the people must get the hashrate they ordered. and it must eat the <1 w/GH power. and that promise is kept.
19:22:36 Anduck: there's nothing unclear in this
19:22:43 fractal: Anduck: no, the bet doesn't say that.
19:23:06 Anduck: i don't understand why you all the time come up with that they had to add more h-cards for the unit.. :/ they failed that but it's got nothing to do with the performance of the unit!
19:23:41 Anduck: the brackets in the bet describe what the "advertised performance" means
19:23:43 fractal: Anduck: the 400Gh unit --as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- failed to meet hashrate performance targets.
19:23:58 fractal: it says 'As advertised'
19:24:08 Anduck: ._. there's no point in this since even now you understand you're wrong - you still keep on pushing that
19:24:45 Anduck: they promised that when one buys 400gh unit, they get 400 gigahash of hashing power and it eats less than 400 watts of power.
19:24:47 fractal: Again, I'm only going by what the bet actually says -- Thats why I bet NO. because I didn't think their 400Gh unit as advertised would meet targets -- and they'd have to refund (or ship more hardware) to make up for their mistakes and underperformance.
19:25:02 fractal: Anduck: thats irrelevant to what the bet says.
19:25:10 fractal: Again, i'm only going by what the bet says
19:25:22 fractal: the 400Gh UNIT only does 360Gh
19:25:59 Anduck: you must understand here that unit, when talking about 25gh unit or 400 gh unit is built from m-boards and h-boards
19:26:13 fractal: I understand very well
19:26:23 Anduck: what do you think 25gh unit is?
19:26:23 fractal: the 400Gh unit --as advertised -- is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" --
19:26:33 Anduck: stop pasting that lol
19:26:39 tyrion70: here we go again..
19:26:43 Anduck: you can refer to it without pasting it all the time :D
19:27:03 tyrion70: >> #annoyingbetdiscussions :p
19:27:15 fractal: A 25 gh unit was advertised as a single H-card. -- I'm pasting it all the time because you don't seem to realize that the bet says hardware device/uni AS ADVERTISED' -- i'm only going by the bet language
19:28:19 Anduck: yeah 25gh unit was advertised as a single h-card. but it took 2 h-cards to make the unit.,
19:28:21 Anduck: understand?
19:28:31 Anduck: they failed _hardware amount promise_
19:28:52 Anduck: the 25gh unit still _performs_ (promised hashrate at promised watts usage) as promised
19:29:00 Anduck: understand????
19:29:42 pankkake: I bet ~0.10 BTC on this. If I give it to you both, will you shut up? :)
19:29:46 fractal: No, thats not what the bet says.... Maybe you can strech the argument for the 25Gh card by saying its modular (even though i disagree because AS ADVERTISED it was 1 card), but you certianly can't for the 400Gh unit
19:29:58 tyrion70: ^what pankkake says
19:30:03 tyrion70: :p
19:30:49 pankkake: anyway, it likely won't change the mind of whoever decides the outcome of the bet
19:31:06 Anduck: yup
19:31:46 fractal: yup
19:32:58 tyrion70: 1 day right and you know what its going to be?
19:33:20 fractal: I can only hope that most rational people will look at the bet langugage, and then look and see that the 400Gh unit --as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- missed performance targets, and that the not all conditions of the bet were met.
19:34:06 Anduck: btw fractal
19:36:38 pankkake: bets can be voided, too…
19:37:28 fractal: If the bet was voided, I would not mind as I do feel badly for Anduck -- he wrote the bet wrongly to what he meant. I have a conscience.
19:37:54 fractal: But, according to the language, the bet is a NO. That doesn't change the fact that I think Bitfury is awesome and did a great job.
19:39:16 fractal: it suppose it could be argued the language made the bet a 'Bad bet' according to the FAQ...
19:39:48 tyrion70: this was obviously an unexpected outcome and not covered in the bet language..
19:40:59 Anduck: well
19:42:23 Anduck: as unit i meant the 400 gh package of mining gear
19:42:53 Anduck: the bfsb.com shop says that 400 gh unit is 16-h boards in 1 m-board
19:43:06 fractal: Yea, but you didn't explicitly state that -- and people reading the bet went on the bitfurystrikesback website, and saw that a UNIT was "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- what do you say to those people???
19:43:18 Anduck: but people got 18-20 h-boards + 2 m-boards as the 400gh unit
19:43:29 tyrion70: where is this bet actually?
19:43:35 fractal: Thats not what was advertised, and contrary to the bet langugae
19:44:01 Anduck: the bet was about advertised performance
19:44:03 Anduck: at bfsb it says:
19:44:04 Anduck: Performance:
19:44:04 Anduck: 400GHash/s
19:44:04 Anduck: Total power draw max. 400W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
19:44:09 Anduck: and that promise is met
19:44:19 tyrion70: where is the bet located?
19:44:28 ozbot: BitBet - Bitfury EU August orders will ship before 1st September 2013
19:44:42 tyrion70: weird search didn't have anything on bitfury..
19:44:56 fractal: thats not what the bet says -- it says 400Gh UNIT must be 400Gh, a unit is as advertised - '"1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
19:45:05 Anduck: there's no such thing as 400 gh device
19:45:07 Anduck: since it's all modular
19:45:09 Anduck: ...
19:45:11 pankkake: infinite loop
19:45:17 fractal: Not true
19:45:21 Anduck: but it is true
19:45:29 fractal: As per the website - a 400Gh unit is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
19:45:30 Anduck: there's no such thing as 25 gh device since it's all modular
19:45:36 jorash: (-_(-_(-_-)_-)_-)
19:45:37 Anduck: no
19:45:38 tyrion70: so we are talking about this bet:
19:45:41 fractal: yes
19:45:41 tyrion70: "Bitfurystrikesback.com (Bitfury EU reseller) will ship their 25 and 400 gigahash mining units before 1st of September 2013. Devices must meet advertised performance (25 GH/s unit 40W, 400 GH/s unit 400W) in order to be accepted as valid. Atleast 5 deliveries confirmed by respected members of the community required."
19:45:47 Anduck: it says 400gh KIT includes 1 master board and 16 h-boards
19:45:59 Anduck: Tykling: yes
19:46:01 Anduck: tyrion70
19:46:04 fractal: which means it missed performance on hashrate -- it is not 400Gh
19:46:13 fractal: they had to ship more hardware to make up for missed performance
19:46:29 Anduck: they had to add more hardware for the kit or unit or whatever you want to call it
19:46:40 tyrion70: That picture that was posted shortly ..
19:46:47 tyrion70: those were two " machines" right?
19:47:04 tyrion70: or "units" ?
19:47:06 fractal: tyrion70: 2 seperate UNITS, yes.
19:47:14 tyrion70: one 400GH unit and one 25GH unit..
19:47:27 fractal: so single unit hit 400Gh.
19:47:44 fractal: tyrion70: http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/ -- 400Gh unit -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- as advertised -- the hardware did not perform as advertised. The bet clearly states that the hardware must perform as advertised. All conditions of the bet were not met.
19:47:58 Anduck: it says 400 gh kit includes 1 m-board and 16 h-boards
19:48:03 Anduck: it doesn't talk about units there
19:48:10 fractal: Thats not what the bet says.
19:48:14 Anduck: when the bet says "unit" it means the 400gh kit
19:48:25 tyrion70: The bet doesn't mention anything on number of boards fractal..
19:48:25 fractal: Well, tahts too bad isn't it? because it SAYS UNIT!!!!!!!!!!!
19:48:32 Anduck: there's no such thing as 400gh unit = 1 m-board + 16 h-boards
19:48:36 fractal: yes there is
19:48:40 Anduck: but there is not
19:48:54 Anduck: it's a fact that 1 m-board can hold up to 16 h-boards, but that doesn't make it a 400gh unit
19:49:05 fractal: tyrion70: yes it does . the bet says 'as advertised' . the hardware is http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/ -- 400Gh unit -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- as advertised
19:49:15 Anduck: it was advertised that 400gh KIT includes a m-board + 16 h-boards.... nothing about "units"
19:49:24 Anduck: it says PERFORMANCE as advertised
19:49:28 tyrion70: fractal: that link nor the content is included in the bet..
19:49:29 fractal: The advertised performance was 400Gh on ""1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips""
19:49:31 Anduck: 400gh UNIT PERFORMANCE AS advertised
19:49:44 fractal: tyrion70: yes, it says bitfurystrikesback.com in the bet
19:49:55 fractal: so, the advertised performance is from that site
19:50:03 Anduck: the advertised performance from the site:
19:50:11 Anduck: Performance:
19:50:11 Anduck: 400GHash/s
19:50:11 Anduck: Total power draw max. 400W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
19:50:13 tyrion70: fractal, thats not the site, its the company..
19:50:25 fractal: The advertised performance was 400Gh on ""1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips""
19:50:35 fractal: they failed to meet these performance targets
19:50:48 Anduck: no, the unit advertised performance was 400gh and 1 m-board and 16 h-boards was the promised amount of modular cards that make the unit
19:50:50 tyrion70: fractal, would you agree that it would be weird that ppl who bet need to read another site?
19:50:54 Anduck: but they failed the hardware amount
19:50:57 Anduck: but the performance did not fail
19:51:28 Anduck: _and_ performance means that W/GH is as promised
19:51:29 fractal: tyrion70: Weird or not -- Thats what the bet says -- Bitfurystrikesback.com (Bitfury EU reseller)"
19:51:40 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says
19:51:44 Anduck: the bet doesn't talk about h-cards performances, it talks about the whole unit performances
19:51:53 Anduck: the whole unit works as promised
19:52:03 Anduck: except it has more h-cards in it than promised
19:52:05 fractal: And it missed performance for the unit, which is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
19:52:17 fractal: which means the bet is a no, because all conditions of the bet were not met.
19:52:37 Anduck: bfsb.com says that 400gh kit includes that amount of modular cards, yes
19:53:03 FabianB_: hmm.. i bet the bitfury argument loop will still last a few hours..
19:53:04 Anduck: and they failed that but the overall performance of the whole 400gh unit/kit is as advertised
19:53:08 Anduck: yup
19:53:08 fractal: And since the hardware didn't perform as advertised -- the bet is a no.
19:53:24 Anduck: the unit does, they didn't advertise that h-card must perform 25gh
19:53:32 fractal: Anduck: Unforunately, thats not what the bet says.
19:53:33 Anduck: the bet is about units, not the modular h-cards or m-cards
19:54:03 tyrion70: fractal: the bet doesn't say "as advertised on the website www.blabla" .. the bet specifies the exact conditions itself.. without a need to read some website..
19:54:08 pankkake: well they can still argue after the bet is resolved
19:54:10 fractal: And the 400Gh unit -- as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- did not meet performance targets
19:54:13 Anduck: the bet says: 25gh unit and 400gh unit must meet the advertised performance. they promise 400gh at 400W for the 400gh unit at bfsb.com. that is met. what's so weird about this?
19:54:23 tyrion70: what if bitfury changed the site while the bet was running???
19:54:35 Anduck: yeah that too
19:54:41 fractal: tyrion70: it says as advertised . Unfortunately, that is where it was advertised.
19:54:55 fractal: Then 'as advertised' would make it a bad bet... and it wouldn't have been accepted.
19:54:57 tyrion70: it says:
19:54:58 tyrion70: Devices must meet advertised performance (25 GH/s unit 40W, 400 GH/s unit 400W) in order to be accepted as valid.
19:55:09 Anduck: yeah
19:55:12 fractal: tyrion70: yes. And the 400Gh unit -- as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- did not meet performance targets
19:55:14 tyrion70: so the actual bet value is references within parenthesis..
19:55:24 Anduck: tyrion70: what do you mean?
19:55:39 Anduck: oh
19:55:40 Anduck: yes
19:55:47 tyrion70: I believe in general that a valid bet MUST contain all information needed..
19:56:02 tyrion70: in this case the bet was for performance.. which was included in parenthesis..
19:56:06 Anduck: well the bet describes what means "advertised performance"
19:56:10 Anduck: yeah
19:56:11 fractal: tyrion: Exactly, the 400Gh unit was only 365Gh .
19:56:17 fractal: therefore it missed performance targets
19:56:34 tyrion70: if I would have bought 1 unit.. how many GH would I have right now fractal?
19:56:35 Anduck: but the people who ordered 400gh unit got >400gh at promised watts?
19:57:09 tyrion70: lets take another example..
19:57:41 fractal: tyrion70: Nobody who ordered a 400Gh unit has posted recieving more then 400Gh.... so I can't answer that question.
19:57:52 Anduck: fractal: actually, MXRider did
19:57:57 fractal: Someone ordered a 400 + 25Gh, and got 2 M-cards.
19:58:01 Anduck: the ordered 400gh unit and 25gh unit.
19:58:02 tyrion70: he did..
19:58:02 fractal: Anduck: NO. he ordered 425.
19:58:04 ozbot: [ANN] Bitfury ASIC sales in EU and Europe
19:58:10 Anduck: and he got 499 gh in total
19:58:11 fractal: exactly.
19:58:17 fractal: thats my point. thank you.
19:58:46 Anduck: tyrion70: let us hear your example
19:58:53 fractal: You won't see anyone with 400Gh only getting delivered -- because BSB would have to ship them 2 M-boards, 2 R-pi's, etc.
19:59:05 Anduck: and they do ship
19:59:10 tyrion70: well that's what I asked earlier..
19:59:12 Anduck: when one orders 400gh kit, he gets 400gh
19:59:14 fractal: Since he ordered 400 + 25, he was always going to get 2 M-boards.
19:59:22 Anduck: ...
19:59:22 fractal: Anduck: I agree with you. but thats not what the bet says
19:59:43 fractal: The bet says the 400Gh unit -- as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" must be 400Gh. IT ISN'T
19:59:46 tyrion70: if ppl ordering 400 gh get 2 m-boards its two units not one..
20:00:08 fractal: tyrion70: Exactly. thank you. this is what i've been trying to argue for 3 days
20:00:16 Anduck: tyrion70: the 400gh kit itself is built from m-boards and h-boards
20:00:35 fractal: Anduck: no, its not. As per the website - the 400Gh unit -- as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
20:00:40 tyrion70: anduck m-boards are not interconnected right?
20:00:46 fractal: tyrion70: They are not .
20:00:49 tyrion70: each m-board has own power supply, nic etc..
20:00:53 fractal: tyrion70: correct
20:01:03 Anduck: a full m-board _should_ make 400gh and now actually only does 370 gh. but the unit/kit, which people ordered, does 400gh (so it includes 2 m-boards and 18-20 h-boards)
20:01:12 tyrion70: ahhh
20:01:28 tyrion70: ok.. now I get the complete picture..
20:01:39 fractal: Anduck: which means the bet is a no, since the hardware does not perform as advertised.
20:01:39 tyrion70: well that's a tough one..
20:02:08 tyrion70: I believe that ppl could have bet on this bet text with two things in mind..
20:02:09 Anduck: so in my eyes they failed the _hardware amount promise_ , they had to deliver more of those modular cards to make the 400gh kit
20:02:29 Anduck: they did not fail the promised/advertised PERFORMANCE of the kit (and the bet was about the performance only)
20:02:36 fractal: tyrion70: of course thats true. which is why its a bad bet i think...
20:02:48 tyrion70: Someone could have thought: No way they get that GH/W out of one chip: I'm betting no
20:02:50 fractal: Anduck: why do you keep using the word KIT? KIT is not in the bet langugage at all. KIT is irrelevant
20:02:50 tyrion70: OR
20:03:00 Anduck: tyrion70: performance means W/GH
20:03:09 Anduck: fractal: they were sold as kits
20:03:20 Anduck: 400gh unit = 400 gh kit
20:03:26 fractal: No it doesn't. Performance means Hashrate and Wattage seperatly... No Proportion was mentioned in the bet language.
20:03:43 Anduck: 25gh @ 40W an 400 gh @ 400W
20:03:48 fractal: it must be BOTH over 400Gh and under 400W to meet targets.
20:03:52 tyrion70: Anduck, it's going to be hard to argue that one kit needs two psu's and two network cables..
20:04:01 fractal: well, a 400Gh UNIT does not exist.....
20:04:01 Anduck: it doesn't need 2 psu-s...
20:04:21 Anduck: fractal: indeed. so one must have understood that when talking about 400gh unit it means the 400gh KIT you can order from the site
20:04:23 fractal: It needs 2 m-boards, 2 R-pi's, etc.
20:04:30 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says.
20:04:43 tyrion70: my conclusion if you want to hear it: bad bet...
20:04:45 Anduck: so that when they advertised that 400gh kit will do 400 gigahashes at <400W.. it is met
20:04:51 fractal: The best doesnt say "If they miss performance targets, they can ship multiple units to make up for it"
20:05:01 tyrion70: the outcome was not 100% coverered by the text in the bet..
20:05:12 Anduck: but people got the promised performance?
20:05:14 Anduck: w tf
20:05:16 fractal: Anduck: The 400Gh unit, as advertised, is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
20:05:23 Anduck: the 400gh KIT was advertised as taht
20:05:25 fractal: Which failed to meet performance targets
20:05:27 Anduck: no mention about units in there
20:05:36 fractal: 'KIT" is nowhere in the bet language. stop using it. thank you.
20:05:41 tyrion70: anduck: 400 GH/s unit
20:05:45 fractal: we are talking about UNITS, as per the bet language.
20:05:48 Anduck: the KIT now happened to include more m-boards than it advertised but the PERFORMANCE is still as promised!!!!!!!!
20:06:02 Anduck: fractal: but there's no such thing as unit at the bfsb.com shop
20:06:04 fractal: Anduck: KIT is nowhere in the bet language. It means something different to UNIT. sorry.
20:06:05 tyrion70: it says unit anduck not kit..
20:06:19 tyrion70: that's why its a bad bet..
20:06:23 Anduck: tyrion70: http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/
20:06:25 tyrion70: it's not a no, and not a yet..
20:06:29 Anduck: where the fuck it says "unit" in there?
20:06:32 fractal: Well, the FULL KIT is STILL "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
20:06:43 fractal: you have to be really retarted not to read that part "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
20:06:47 fractal: thats a KIT
20:06:50 tyrion70: Anduck like I said, I have to go on the text in the bet..
20:06:52 Anduck: the bet wasn't about what the full kit is, it was about that the full kit will deliver the performance
20:07:00 tyrion70: not the site.. the site can be changed.. the bet can't
20:07:11 fractal: Anduck: IT doesn't matter what you say now.... THE BET LANGUAGE IS ALL THAT MATTERS
20:07:16 fractal: holy SHIT MAN
20:07:20 Anduck: and i think it was quite clear to understand that 25gh unit and 400gh unit meant the thing you can buy from the website. and the thing you can buy from the website is kit
20:07:47 Anduck: nobody has declared that 1 m-board + 16 h-boards is 400gh unit
20:08:02 tyrion70: anduck what's the power usage on that thing anyway?
20:08:07 fractal: Well obviously its not clear.... a 400Gh unit/kit was "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
20:08:08 Anduck: the only declaration for 400gh unit i can think of is that what they sell at the site. the 400 gh KIT is what they sell
20:08:22 fractal: Anduck: thats not what the bet says.
20:08:26 Anduck: tyrion70: <350W
20:08:35 fractal: You can't write a bet and they say "oh, I actually meant this" later
20:08:49 Anduck: yeah but it's actually very much the only way you can understand the bet
20:08:52 tyrion70: for 1 m-board with 16 h-boards?
20:09:00 Anduck: tyrion70: no, for the 400gh unit
20:09:02 tyrion70: or for 2 m-boards and 19-h boards?
20:09:06 Anduck: that includes 2 m-boards and 18 h-boards
20:09:07 Anduck: or 19 h-boards
20:09:09 fractal: Anduck: everyone can see that a 400Gh unit is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
20:09:29 Anduck: fractal: that was meant to be the 400gh kit. it was meant that 400gh kit only includes 1 m-board filled with h-boards
20:09:34 Anduck: but the kit hardware amount changed
20:09:37 Anduck: but the performance did not
20:09:44 fractal: Anduck: And thats what was advertsied -- according to the bet language -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
20:09:52 fractal: This did not meet performance.
20:10:09 fractal: It's like BFL shipping 2 singles because 1 was only 1/2 the hashrate
20:10:12 tyrion70: pfff
20:10:15 fractal: or giving a refund.
20:10:22 Anduck: fractal: theu can do that if they keep the performance promise
20:10:25 fractal: The fact is that the hardware MISSED performance
20:10:33 Anduck: yeah
20:10:34 Anduck: it did
20:10:38 Anduck: but the 400gh unit did nopt
20:10:42 Anduck: nor did the 25gh
20:11:02 fractal: Anduck: the bet says nothing about keeping promises and shipping more hardware if they miss performance numebrs, it simply says that the 400Gh unit, as advertised "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips", must be 400Gh... IT was not.
20:11:31 Anduck: but there's no declaration for 400gh unit to be 1 m-board with 16 h-boards
20:11:32 Anduck: .........
20:11:45 fractal: Yes, that is what was advertised.
20:11:48 Anduck: o well there is
20:11:49 Anduck: yeah
20:11:51 Anduck: the kit
20:11:59 Anduck: or unit, whatever we want to call it
20:12:06 Anduck: but as long as it performs as promised, the bet is yes
20:12:07 Anduck: right?
20:12:17 Anduck: doesn't matter does the COLOR of the miner change
20:12:19 fractal: So, how do you expect people to read the bet, -- AS adveritsed -- ?? and then tell them later 'Sorry, it doesn't matter if that was as advertised'
20:12:19 Anduck: or the SIZE
20:12:29 fractal: Thats not what the language of the bet says.
20:12:33 Anduck: well i am asking you
20:12:49 tyrion70: it can be read and understood two ways without right or wrong..
20:12:54 fractal: The UNIT, as advertised, didn't perform as promised .
20:12:57 tyrion70: hence: bad bet
20:13:06 Anduck: fractal: what is the unit?
20:13:37 fractal: Anduck: "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips",
20:13:47 Anduck: yeah, they failed that. they had to add more hardware to make the unit
20:13:48 tyrion70: both anduck and fractal, try not to convince eachother of your own opinion but see if you can fit both opinions in the same bet..
20:13:55 Anduck: indeed
20:14:04 Anduck: what i said earlier, i say now
20:14:16 Anduck: the bet requires that bfsb ships 400 gh to people who ordered 400gh
20:14:21 Anduck: and it must meet the W/GH
20:14:22 fractal: tyrion70: i agree with you, your arguement that this is a bad bet, is probably valid.
20:14:26 tyrion70: you are both right...
20:14:27 Anduck: so they cant ship for example GPU's
20:14:40 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says.
20:14:56 tyrion70: anduck, I could argue that if I ordered a 400GH Kit as you describe it, I now received 2 units...
20:15:05 tyrion70: not one...
20:15:07 Anduck: it doesn't matter that does the miner change color or what sized it is... the thing is that they had to deliver the advertised performance. performance means X amount of GHash at Y W/GH.
20:15:19 fractal: Anduck: yes, but thats not what the bet says.
20:15:23 Anduck: tyrion70: you can only order 400gh kits
20:15:42 fractal: Anduck: And a KIT, as advertised is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips",
20:15:44 Anduck: they said that the kit will include 1 m-board and 16 h-boards. but it ended up including 2 m-boards with 19 h-boards
20:15:46 tyrion70: anduck; do you agree that I should not have to read another website to bet?
20:15:52 Anduck: tyrion70: yes
20:15:56 tyrion70: allrightl
20:16:06 Anduck: so where does one come up with that a 400gh unit is 1 m-board with 16 h-boards???
20:16:27 tyrion70: anduck: do you agree that if I ordered a 400 GH Kit from bitfury and I openend the box I would see two "units"
20:16:28 Anduck: thats not in the bet. the bet refers to the bfsb.com shop declared performance of 400gh unit. and it's in the parenthesis too
20:16:33 fractal: Anduck: The bet language says UNIT. The website says "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips",
20:16:36 Anduck: in the parenthesis is the thing that the 400gh unit and 25gh unit had to meet
20:16:40 tyrion70: depening on "my understanding" of the word unit...
20:16:41 fractal: 1 master board is therefore assumed to be a UNIT
20:16:46 Anduck: tyrion70: yea
20:17:05 Anduck: tyrion70: that means they failed the amount of hardware you ordered.
20:17:11 Anduck: but it still performs as promised
20:17:19 tyrion70: it means that the text is ambivalent..
20:17:20 Anduck: even though the miner size or color or amount of modular units has changed
20:17:38 fractal: Well, i'd say that if they had to ship more hardware -- they missed performance targets.
20:17:38 tyrion70: because 2 units makes the bet a no..
20:17:52 Anduck: tyrion70: but where do you come up with that 400gh is 2 units?
20:18:15 tyrion70: like I said if I opened the box today one could argue that I have received two units instead of one..
20:18:26 Anduck: it's a single 400gh unit you buy. you get the 400gh (even though it's splitted in 2 mainboards and 19 h-boards)
20:18:31 Anduck: tyrion70: indeed
20:18:36 Anduck: so they failed that promise
20:18:36 tyrion70: which would make me very happy customer nonetheless...
20:18:48 Anduck: but those hardware as the unit would still perform as promised
20:18:58 Anduck: you order 400gh unit, you get 400 gh unit
20:19:02 fractal: For the record -- nobody who ordered a 400Gh OR LESS has reported receiving more then 1 M-board.
20:19:08 Anduck: the unit has changed, but the performance hasn't
20:19:14 fractal: Anduck: 2 units is not 1 unit.
20:19:22 fractal: 2 units is 2 units. because they missed performance.
20:19:31 Anduck: you order 400gh unit, how does that go to 2 units???
20:19:36 Anduck: who the fuck says 1 m-board is 1 unit?
20:19:48 Anduck: who the fuck says 1 m-board with 16 h-boards is 1 unit?
20:19:51 fractal: The website says it. ""1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips",
20:19:56 fractal: thanks.
20:19:57 Anduck: it says that yes
20:20:08 tyrion70: but the bet says: 400 GH/s unit 400W while it does 400 GH/s 2 units 400W
20:20:08 tyrion70: 1 kit now equals 2 units
20:20:08 tyrion70: bet language was not clear (should have used the exact language from bitfury)
20:20:14 Anduck: YES you are RIGHT about that. so they failed that. the unit is MORE THAN 1 M-BOARD
20:20:30 fractal: Anduck: YES, but thats not what the bet says !!
20:20:32 tyrion70: there is no bitfury "unit" therefore ppl betting might have different opinions on what a unit is..
20:20:34 Anduck: the unit is MORE than 1 m-board with 16 h-boards!!!
20:20:45 fractal: Anduck: That's not what was advertised
20:20:51 Anduck: true!
20:20:52 fractal: Anduck: The BET says 'as advertised'
20:20:56 Anduck: but the performance is still correct!
20:21:15 Anduck: it wasn't about how much boards the unit must have or is the hardware amount as advertised
20:21:16 fractal: No, its not. The 400Gh unit , as advertised "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips", is only 365Gh
20:21:28 fractal: Again, Anduck, Thats not what the bet says....
20:21:59 tyrion70: again, I could argue both sides; so I say it's invalid..
20:22:05 Anduck: but the 400gh unit ended up to be 2 m-boards + 19 h-boards. so they fucking failed that hardware amount promise, RIGHT???? but the 400gh unit (which has now changed to 2 m-boards instead of 1) they ordered performs as promised
20:22:26 fractal: Anduck: Thats irrelevant, as thats not what the bet says.
20:22:28 tyrion70: ok
20:22:35 tyrion70: lets try a different approach
20:22:37 Anduck: it's irrelevant?
20:22:38 tyrion70: knc..
20:22:46 fractal: Anduck: All thats relevant is the language of the bet
20:22:47 tyrion70: has 100 200 and 400 gh machines right?
20:22:54 Anduck: yup
20:23:21 tyrion70: ok lets say the bet is knc delivers their "units" with advertized performance..
20:23:34 tyrion70: now they don't and instead of sending me one jupiter they send two...
20:24:17 tyrion70: now if the bet says: a jupiter at advertized performance (400GH) the bet would be NO right?
20:24:33 fractal: that would mean they failed on performance.... the bet would be a NO
20:24:33 Anduck: the bet says "400gh unit at 400W" ? *
20:24:36 tyrion70: but if the bet says: an order at advertized performance (400GH)
20:24:46 tyrion70: it would be a yes..
20:24:53 Anduck: yup
20:25:02 tyrion70: ok.. now back to bitfury..
20:25:10 Anduck: but the performance isn't same as hashrate
20:25:15 fractal: Anduck: "400gh unit 400W" means that the unit must be BOTH more then 400Gh, and less then 400W... no mention of Gh/W ratio was made.
20:25:19 Anduck: performance is W/GH AND the hashrate
20:25:28 Anduck: yeah
20:25:30 fractal: Anduck: not the way the bet defines it
20:25:31 tyrion70: ho ho ho
20:25:37 Anduck: but that's what the performance means, right?
20:25:38 Anduck: =P
20:25:41 tyrion70: keep it simple first..
20:25:49 tyrion70: skip the W ;)
20:25:53 Anduck: >400gh at <400W makes a rate of <1 W/GH
20:26:04 Anduck: + the unit must do more than 400 GH
20:26:06 fractal: No. You can win on hashrate and lose on wattage, or win on wattage and lose on hashrate
20:26:08 tyrion70: with bitfury.. when this bet was openend..
20:26:17 tyrion70: Anduck what was your understanding of a unit?
20:26:32 Anduck: the 400gh or 25gh thing you can order from bfsb.com
20:26:35 Anduck: they call them kits
20:26:55 tyrion70: ok so the word unit was "wrong" from the start...
20:26:59 Anduck: how?
20:27:12 tyrion70: well.. you read and interpreted the word unit as order or kit
20:27:24 Anduck: what do you think unit is?
20:27:33 tyrion70: fractal might have read and interpreted 1m-board with 16 h-boards..
20:27:37 tyrion70: the thing is..
20:27:39 Anduck: but who says unit is that?
20:27:41 tyrion70: there is a difference..
20:27:44 Anduck: bfsb.com says that the kit is that
20:27:47 tyrion70: who says a unit is an order...
20:27:56 Anduck: well if he got that thing from the kit declaration
20:28:01 fractal: thats exactly how I interpreted it -- based on the bet language -- thats all I have to go by... The site doesn't say "message Anduck" if you have any questions.
20:28:02 Anduck: then kit=unit=order
20:28:19 tyrion70: that's ur assumption anduck..
20:28:22 Anduck: why?
20:28:31 tyrion70: well because you believe it to be...
20:28:37 tyrion70: the question is not are you wrong..
20:28:39 Anduck: isn't the assumption of 1 unit = 1 m-board + 16 h-board wrong too? it's never declared anywhere
20:28:47 tyrion70: ha!
20:28:51 tyrion70: there we go..
20:28:52 Anduck: only the 400gh kit is declared
20:28:58 tyrion70: both are actually...
20:29:00 tyrion70: and none..
20:29:05 tyrion70: in the bet text itself
20:29:11 tyrion70: unit is not further explained..
20:29:17 tyrion70: it leaves that to the reader..
20:29:17 Anduck: so we _MUST_ assume that unit=kit
20:29:20 tyrion70: nope..
20:29:26 Anduck: unit can be a group
20:29:33 Anduck: unit can be a group of smaller units
20:29:33 tyrion70: why? because you think that's correct?
20:29:34 fractal: Anduck: well, it says 'As advertised'
20:29:53 tyrion70: apparently there are two ways of looking at a unit..
20:29:59 Anduck: yeah fractal, advertised performance. not advertised amount of hw
20:30:01 tyrion70: both of which come from the same website..
20:30:19 Anduck: the website only declares that a kit is 1 m-board + 16 h-boards
20:30:26 Anduck: no talking about units
20:30:26 tyrion70: I could have read on the website that if I ordered a kit I would get 1 m board with 16 boards..
20:30:35 Anduck: so you can -assume_ it means the kit when talking about unit
20:31:02 tyrion70: ok u agree there can be two definitions of unit?
20:31:19 Anduck: yeah
20:31:35 Anduck: but my definition was actually defined ,the other one wasn't
20:31:42 tyrion70: hense wrong bet language..
20:31:42 fractal: Anduck: It missed advertised performance.
20:31:57 tyrion70: it has nothing to do with meeting the performance yet..
20:32:05 tyrion70: although..
20:32:23 tyrion70: if unit == kit == order then the bet result == yes
20:32:35 ThickAsThieves: wow
20:32:37 tyrion70: if unit == 1m board + 16 h-boards then the bet result == no..
20:32:42 Anduck: they failed to ship the kit as described, though the kit does deliver the performance as promised. nobody can say that unit = 1 m-board + 16 h-boards, that wasnt ever defined anywhere!!!
20:32:47 fractal: tyrion70: I think its clear the bet language is not great. it its cancelled, i would understand, but I think it comes down to what most people would interpret a 'UNIT as Advertised' as being...
20:32:48 ThickAsThieves: you guys and this bet
20:32:50 ThickAsThieves: ...
20:33:01 Anduck: nobody can say that unit = 1 m-board + 16 h-boards, that wasnt ever defined anywhere!!!
20:33:02 tyrion70: anduck, it was at the site wasn't it?
20:33:04 Anduck: no
20:33:07 Anduck: only kit declaration
20:33:08 ThickAsThieves: ;;ticker
20:33:27 fractal: it's very clear http://www.bitfurystrikesback.com/product/400gh-miner-october-2013/ -- 400Gh miner -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- as advertised -- the hardware did not perform as advertised. The bet clearly states that the hardware must perform as advertised. All conditions of the bet were not met.
20:33:32 tyrion70: ok so kit was 1 m-board and 16 hbards right?
20:33:37 Anduck: yeah
20:33:42 Anduck: that how it was defined
20:33:50 tyrion70: so if I were to read up on what a unit was I would think its a kit?
20:34:02 Anduck: and people who orderd the kit got the performance the kit promised
20:34:16 tyrion70: ok but unit == kit OR unit == order..
20:34:18 Anduck: it made it with a different hardware amount than promised. but that wasn't partt of the bet
20:34:24 tyrion70: can't be both at the same time..
20:34:24 Anduck: unit=kit
20:34:32 Anduck: order can have many kits
20:34:42 tyrion70: unit==kit==1m+16h?
20:34:57 Anduck: the kit was advertised to make 400gh at <400W. and it was also advertised to have 1 m-board and 16 h-boards
20:35:00 Anduck: so yeah
20:35:23 Anduck: but the kit ended up to have more m-boards and h-boards than promised
20:35:35 Anduck: but it didn't alter the advertised performance (400gh at <400w)
20:35:39 tyrion70: so it was unclear what a unit was...
20:35:43 Anduck: how is it unclear?
20:35:54 tyrion70: well.. u bet from customer perspective..
20:36:11 tyrion70: if you get >400GH for <400W before september 1st you win..
20:36:18 tyrion70: I can bet from technical perspective..
20:36:35 tyrion70: being: no way they get 400GH out of 256 chips..
20:36:47 fractal: tyrion70: thats exactly what I placed my bet on.
20:36:48 tyrion70: both based on the same initial bet text..
20:37:01 Anduck: they had to add more chips, making them to break that promise
20:37:07 fractal: 'No way they can get 400GH out of 256 chips'
20:37:15 fractal: Anduck: and the promise was broken because the performance was not met
20:37:35 tyrion70: and that statement "could be" covered by the original bid text..
20:37:42 Anduck: how?
20:37:44 Anduck: i think it can't.
20:38:17 fractal: Anduck: tyrion is saying that the bet can be viewed from a 'customer' perspective or a 'technical' perspective.... depending on which one, the bet can be a yes or no.
20:38:21 tyrion70: why not? think two weeks back..
20:38:29 Anduck: i don't agree with that technical perspective
20:38:32 Anduck: let me explain why
20:38:48 tyrion70: ok
20:39:07 pankkake: .bait
20:39:21 Anduck: one looks that yeah they can't make 256 produce 400gh at <400W. but if 256 chips don't make 400gh, it isn't a 400gh unit, right?
20:39:32 Anduck: so they had to add more chips to make the 400gh unit.
20:39:43 Anduck: still it had to draw max 400 W in total
20:40:01 Anduck: if they added GPU's, it would break the performance promise since it would eat more than 400 wattas
20:40:20 Anduck: so they only broke the promise of hardware amount, they couldn't make the 400gh unit out of 1 m-board only
20:40:29 tyrion70: yeah i see where you are going..
20:40:36 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says... the kit says 256 chips do 400Gh.
20:40:40 FabianB_: .bait
20:40:54 tyrion70: but can you at least imagine that ppl bet on 256 chips doing 400 gh based on the information from the bet
20:41:02 Anduck: the site says kit makes 400gh and includes 256 chips
20:41:03 fractal: There are 2 metrics for performance. -- hashrate, and Wattage. It has to meet BOTH.
20:41:10 Anduck: the kit makes 400gh and includes more than 256 chips.
20:41:20 Anduck: they broke the hw amount promise, not the performance promise of the kit
20:41:54 tyrion70: not according to the ppl that bet on the 256 chips being one unit..
20:42:01 pankkake: so it does 400gh for <400W?
20:42:16 tyrion70: 300 chips do > 400gh for <400w
20:42:19 pankkake: regardless of number of chips, which aren't in the bet
20:42:19 fractal: Anduck: The HW promise IS the performance promise! Imagine if you are running a server farm, and Intel says --- "oh, sorry, our chips aren't fast enough --, but heres 1000 extra servers. Oh, you can't fit them in your datacenter because you ran out of space? too bad!!"
20:42:26 Anduck: tyrion70: the bet doesn't require the unit to include 256 chips
20:42:30 pankkake: don't care about the nubem of chips
20:42:39 fractal: pankkake: yes. But thats not what the bet says.
20:42:40 pankkake: does it do 400gh for <400W?
20:42:44 Anduck: pankkake: yes
20:42:45 fractal: pankkake: No, it doesn't
20:42:48 pankkake: lol
20:42:51 tyrion70: both
20:42:54 Anduck: you order 400gh, you get 400gh at <400W
20:42:57 Anduck: so yes, it does.
20:42:58 tyrion70: again, you are both right..
20:43:04 tyrion70: depending on the perspective..
20:43:05 pankkake: ok, rewriting my question: does it do <1W per gh?
20:43:07 Anduck: i am fucking more right than him goddamnit KIDDORAGE INCOMING
20:43:13 tyrion70: hahaha
20:43:14 Anduck: pankkake: yes
20:43:20 pankkake: ok, that's interesting
20:43:33 Anduck: and the unit does >400 gigahashes, too
20:43:34 fractal: pankkake: 400Gh miner -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- as advertised -- which is what was required by the bet -- only does 365Gh
20:43:40 pankkake: honestly, I think it should resolve as yes then
20:43:45 pankkake: (and it means I lose my bet)
20:43:59 pankkake: but the bet does not mention chips or boards or whatever
20:44:01 Anduck: the bet required the unit to produce 400gh at <400W. it does that, even though it does that with more chips than announced
20:44:05 pankkake: it mentions performance, watts, hashes
20:44:07 fractal: pankkake: well, its a no, if you read the bet language.
20:44:13 tyrion70: the bet describes a unit..
20:44:25 tyrion70: but there is no such thing as a unit...
20:44:39 pankkake: "Devices must meet advertised performance"
20:44:41 tyrion70: so anducks definition of a unit being "whats in the box"
20:44:45 tyrion70: is correct..
20:44:46 pankkake: they meet the *performance*
20:44:48 Anduck: it says 25gh unit and 400gh unit - bfsb sold 25gh kit and 400gh kit. so you can pretty much make the assumption that kit=unit there,right?
20:44:51 mircea_popescu: ;;eauth mircea_popescu
20:44:53 fractal: pankkake: They did not meet ADVERTISED performance.
20:45:00 tyrion70: and fractals definition of 256 chips is correct to..
20:45:07 pankkake: number of chips is not performance
20:45:12 fractal: pankkake: 400Gh miner -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- as advertised -- only does 365Gh
20:45:15 Anduck: tyrion70: the bet was about the unit performance, not about the unit chip amount
20:45:20 mircea_popescu: ;;everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:092252d47f975c33c80bb11e036eb00c1983a43e1d2c0f5a34031c4d
20:45:30 mircea_popescu: ;;rate ted_stanley 1 Coder guy.
20:45:47 tyrion70: yes and no..
20:45:58 tyrion70: yes a unit is a kit..
20:46:07 tyrion70: but the definiton of a kit is not in the bet..
20:46:10 Anduck: a kit was promised to do 400 ghash and it does that
20:46:20 fractal: pankkake: Hashrate for the 400Gh kit/unit as defined by the hardware, as advertsied , was not met.
20:46:29 fractal: Anduck: No, it only does 365Gh
20:46:33 fractal: sorry
20:46:43 Anduck: but one ordered 400gh kit and got 400gh?
20:46:45 tyrion70: hence it can be read as "what I receive when I order one" or "1 m board 16 h boards and 256 chips"
20:46:48 fractal: 2 Kits do > 400Gh
20:46:52 fractal: 1 Kit does < 400Gh
20:47:04 Anduck: i buy 1 kit, i get >400gh
20:47:06 Anduck: wtf?
20:47:11 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says.
20:47:15 Anduck: lol?
20:47:25 Anduck: 400gh kit does 400gh, thats what the bet says
20:47:29 Anduck: we already accepted that kit=unit
20:47:33 Anduck: the kit does 400gh
20:47:33 mircea_popescu: incidentally, is this bitfury pcb stuff pretty much the most open/modder friendly asic miner to date ?
20:47:40 Anduck: mircea_popescu: yup
20:47:46 fractal: The bet says the 400Gh UNIT as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- must be at least 400Gh -- it is not.
20:47:49 mircea_popescu: it seems impressignly open
20:47:58 pankkake: yeah it looks great
20:47:59 Anduck: fractal: the chip count is different, performance of the unit is not
20:48:03 pankkake: now I want one
20:48:08 Anduck: the chips can be run at >3 GH
20:48:13 mircea_popescu: pankkake they certainly did the pr right.
20:48:15 fractal: Anduck: the performance was not met. It is only 365Gh.
20:48:16 Anduck: at bfsb boards they do max 1,5
20:48:24 Anduck: fractal: i order 400gh unit, i get 400gh.
20:48:46 fractal: Anduck: The bet only talks about the performance of the unit --
20:49:01 fractal: which is -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- must be at least 400Gh -- it is not.
20:49:02 Anduck: and i get a 400gh unit and it does the 400gh? chip count changed, yes
20:49:06 fractal: No, it doesn't.
20:49:12 fractal: it only does 365Gh
20:49:13 Anduck: but it does?
20:49:14 pankkake: they spent more time working on the miner than on the PR and cases, it seems
20:49:29 Anduck: i get a 400gh KIT which is same as 400gh UNIT as we already accepted.
20:49:33 Anduck: yup
20:49:40 Anduck: the chip itself is awesome
20:49:48 fractal: Anduck: proof that the 400Gh kit is what I describe --- http://thegenesisblock.com/bitfury-400-ghs-bitcoin-mining-rig-hits-us-shores/
20:49:58 Anduck: fractal: the link is not part of the bet
20:50:00 fractal: You are now disagreeing with thegensisblock also
20:50:07 Anduck: only bitfurystrikesback.com is referred to
20:50:25 Anduck: and bitfurystrikesback says 400gh kit (unit) will deliver 400gh at <400W. this was met
20:50:31 fractal: That's a picture of the kit/unit. it doeesn't do 400Gh....
20:50:36 fractal: No it doesn't
20:50:43 Anduck: it's a picture of 1 m-board filled with 16 h-cards
20:50:44 fractal: the 400Gh UNIT as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- must be at least 400Gh -- it is not.
20:51:21 kakobrekla: i think the conclusion of the story is buy s.bbet
20:51:23 Anduck: bitfurystrikesback says 400gh kit (same as 400 gh unit as we accepted) will deliver 400gh at <400W. this was met. the chip count though was changed from 256 to more.
20:51:49 pankkake: kakobrekla: I'm waiting for the TAT PT
20:51:53 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says. the bet says a 400Gh miner, as advertised -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- must be at least 400Gh -- it is not.
20:52:08 Anduck: dude read what i wrote
20:52:10 Anduck: read it with care
20:52:17 fractal: Read what I wrote with care as well.
20:52:20 Anduck: i did.
20:52:27 Anduck: they failed that. they had to ship more hw to make the unit
20:52:28 fractal: I did.
20:52:34 Anduck: but thats not part of the goddamn bet
20:52:44 fractal: Which means the bet is a no. they shipped more because they missed on performance. its the same as a refund.
20:53:01 Anduck: the unit changed from 1 m-board filled with 16 h-cards to 2 m-boards with 19 h-cards. so they failed this.. but the UNIT does as performed
20:53:38 fractal: Anduck: The fact is that people betting on bitbet.us can ONLY go by what the language of the bet says --- The bet says a 400Gh miner, as advertised, must be 400Gh.... The advertised Miner was -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- it is onlt 365Gh.
20:54:01 Anduck: the advertised miner performance, which the bet is about, is 400gh at <400W.
20:54:09 fractal: Anduck: the fact that they had to do that, means that they missed performance on their 400Gh 'kit' and the bet is a no.
20:54:14 Anduck: the amount of hardware for the unit changed but it's not part of the bet
20:54:23 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the bet says
20:54:27 pankkake: the bet mentions advertised performance, not advertised specs
20:54:31 Anduck: indeed
20:54:43 Anduck: the bet doesn't require the unit/kit to be 1 m-board with 16 h-boards
20:54:58 Anduck: it requires the unit/kit to perform as promised, that is 25gh at 40W or 400gh at 400W
20:56:05 fractal: pankkake: it says the performance of a UNIT AS ADVERTISED. The advertised 400Gh Miner was -- "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- it is onlt 365Gh.
20:56:30 pankkake: it's not performance, and what is performance is mentionned in the bet
20:56:40 pankkake: stop copy/pasting that line it's annoying
20:56:58 fractal: pankkake: yes, and the unit mentioned in the bet failed on performance.
20:57:07 pankkake: :|
20:57:10 Anduck: no it doesn't say "performance of the unit as advertised". it says "must meet advertised performance (25 GH/s unit 40W, 400 GH/s unit 400W) "
20:57:32 fractal: and the 400Gh unit is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- which only does 365Gh.
20:57:35 Anduck: and we agreed already that unit is the same thing as the kit.
20:57:44 fractal: and 1 kit is 1-mboard.
20:57:44 Anduck: the kits are promised as the parenthesis says and that is met
20:57:47 Anduck: no
20:57:51 Anduck: it was meant to be
20:57:52 fractal: yes.
20:57:54 pankkake: please stop mentionning chips
20:57:55 Anduck: but it's more than that
20:58:01 fractal: that is what was advertised, and that is what the language of the bet says
20:58:13 Anduck: so they failed that part? but not the performance of the kit?
20:58:19 fractal: All that matter is the language of the bet. that is why people make NO/YES bets. based on the language of the bet
20:58:31 fractal: Anduck: the 400Gh Kit failed on performance.
20:58:52 fractal: A 400Gh kit is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
20:58:54 Anduck: the language says that the kit must perform as promised. the kit perform promise is at the bfsb shop:
20:58:54 Anduck: Performance:
20:58:54 Anduck: 400GHash/s
20:58:55 Anduck: Total power draw max. 400W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
20:59:09 fractal: No, it doesn't perform as promised
20:59:13 FabianB_: why not just wait a few hours and see what it resolves to?
20:59:56 Anduck: order 400gh unit -> get 400gh mining power at promised efficiency. how does it not perform as promised?
21:00:16 fractal: Because the 400Gh unit only hashes at 365Gh.
21:00:18 Anduck: there was no promise of the hardware to perform X way, only the kit
21:00:29 fractal: And a kit is "is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
21:00:36 fractal: which only performs at 365gh
21:00:38 Anduck: you must mean that 1 m-board + 16 h-boards only does 365 gh?
21:00:57 Anduck: the kit is 400gh at <400W. that's the important part
21:01:06 Anduck: the kit hardware got changed, performance didn't
21:01:07 fractal: Not according to the language of the bet....
21:01:13 fractal: Thats not what the bet says
21:01:23 Anduck: the bet says that only advertised performance of the kit must be met
21:01:24 Anduck: and that is met.
21:01:32 Anduck: we already agreed that the kit is the same as the unit.
21:01:40 fractal: No, its not met -- a kit is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips". It does not do 400Gh.
21:01:58 Anduck: a kit was meant to be that hardware, yes. but it failed that. it's more hardware
21:02:01 pankkake: the bet does not fucking mention chips and boards
21:02:08 Anduck: still performs as promised but with more hardware than promised
21:02:10 Anduck: INDEED
21:02:14 fractal: Which, according to the language of the bet, means it missed performance.
21:02:15 Anduck: it only mentions the KIT performance
21:02:23 pankkake: chips and boards is not performance
21:02:26 pankkake: it is fucking irrelevant
21:02:28 pankkake: fuck
21:02:34 Anduck: indeed but fractal can't understand it :(
21:02:36 fractal: pankkake: It mentions a UNIT - which is is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips". its not irrelevant. sorry.
21:02:45 fractal: pankkake: sorry. its not irrelevant. because english.
21:02:50 Anduck: fractal: unit is a kit as we already talked before.
21:03:03 pankkake: you ignore "performance" but yet focus on "unit"
21:03:08 pankkake: what do you think is more important?
21:03:46 fractal: Anduck: which is is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" - which does not do 400Gh
21:03:49 Anduck: they said that 400gh kit will have 256 chips to make the 400gh. they had to add more chips. and the kit does 400gh
21:03:59 fractal: pankkake: all conditions of the bet must be met for it to be a yes. All conditions were not met. The unit/kit in question does not perform at 400Gh.
21:04:10 fractal: Anduck: Thats not what the language of the bet says.
21:04:11 Anduck: fractal: yeah that 1 m-board + 16 h-boards wasn't enough for a kit, they had to add more hw
21:04:16 Anduck: more chips to make the 400gh kit
21:04:21 Anduck: performance of the kit didn't change
21:04:36 Anduck: the bet wasn't about kit chip amount
21:04:36 fractal: which means they missed performance. So the 400Gh kit in question at the time the bet was made, did not meed performance.
21:05:08 Anduck: the 400gh kit is 400gh kit, dependless of the chip amount it includes. it was only about that the 400gh kit will make 400gh at promised efficiency
21:05:15 fractal: Again, thats not what the bet says.
21:05:25 Anduck: that is actually right what the bet says
21:05:32 Anduck: must meet advertised performance (25 GH/s unit 40W, 400 GH/s unit 400W)
21:05:39 fractal: And the 400Gh unit is 365Gh.
21:05:42 Anduck: and we already agreed unit is same as kit
21:05:52 Anduck: and i can get the logs about that why it is so
21:06:11 Anduck: the kit does >400gh as promised.
21:06:14 fractal: UNIT is 1 KIT of 1-mboard. anything more then that is no longer a single unit or kit.
21:06:21 fractal: Anduck: No, it doesn't. it is only 365Gh.
21:06:36 Anduck: the 400gh unit includes more chips than promised, yes. but the performance is the same
21:07:00 Anduck: the performance is as promised, that's only thing that is important for the bet
21:07:02 fractal: They shipped more hardware, and are by far the best ASIC manufactuerer so far, and I will order from them... and they've done a great job..... but that has nothing to do with the bet language
21:07:24 fractal: Anduck: The performance of the 400Gh UNIT is only 365Gh.
21:07:26 fractal: sorry.
21:07:31 Anduck: doesn't matter does the miner color or size or chip amount change. it performs as promised. the kit said 400gh at <400W and thats what they delivered.
21:07:44 Anduck: and the kit is the same as unit in the bet description
21:07:48 Anduck: as we already agreed
21:07:54 fractal: You are trying to change what you meant after the fact.... when the bet started -- everyone assumed that a 400Gh KIT was "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
21:08:03 Anduck: yeah they di
21:08:05 Anduck: yup
21:08:17 Anduck: but the bet wasn't about that to be as promised
21:08:23 Anduck: the bet was about the kit hashrate and efficiency
21:08:30 Anduck: not the chip amount
21:08:43 Anduck: the kit includes a lot more than only m-boards and h-boards
21:08:44 fractal: You can't change after the fact what UNIT was supposed to mean. Also. Nobody who ordered a 400Gh unit actually got 2-mboards so far.
21:08:59 Anduck: the unit is the same as a kit as we've already talked earlier, right?
21:08:59 fractal: the guy on the forums ordered a 400 kit AND a 25 kit
21:09:10 Anduck: he got 2 m-boards for the 400gh kit
21:09:12 Anduck: lol
21:09:21 Anduck: he got 20 h-boards
21:09:37 Anduck: so he got more chips than 256.. so they failed that, they had to add the chip count
21:09:52 Anduck: but the hashrate of 400gh unit is 400gh. (actually more). and the efficiency is as promised
21:10:18 fractal: No. he got a 400gh KIT as advertised -- ""1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- which missed performance targets. that the compmany sent him more hardware has nothing to do with the fact that the 400Gh unit AS ADVERTISED is 365gh
21:10:32 fractal: Again, you have to go by the language of the bet.
21:12:05 fractal: When people placed the bet, all the information they had to go by was that a UNIT was , as advertised , "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" .... This is the only amount of hardware they were taking into consideration when making the bet.
21:13:57 Anduck: 400gh unit performance described at the bitfurystrikesback.com (the bet was about this only, not the chip or hardware amount)
21:13:57 Anduck: Performance:
21:13:58 Anduck: 400GHash/s
21:13:58 Anduck: Total power draw max. 400W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
21:14:20 Anduck: so there's NOTHING unclear about this
21:14:26 fractal: INCLUDED: "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" "1 Raspberry PI"
21:14:39 fractal: if they have to ship more, the UNIT missed performance, and the bet is a no
21:14:50 Anduck: the unit missed hardware promise
21:14:53 Anduck: not performance promise
21:15:00 fractal: yes they missed performance promise
21:15:02 Anduck: the unit does 400gh
21:15:03 fractal: as advertised
21:15:06 Anduck: Performance:
21:15:06 Anduck: 400GHash/s
21:15:07 Anduck: Total power draw max. 400W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
21:15:08 fractal: no, the unit does 365Gh
21:15:13 fractal: INCLUDED: "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
21:15:19 Anduck: they advertised 400gh for the unit and thats what it does
21:15:20 rulother-tab: I see you guys are still debating the bet
21:15:29 Anduck: rulother-tab: whats your opinion?
21:15:31 fractal: Anduck: No, it does 365Gh
21:15:39 Anduck: but the one who ordered it got 400gh?
21:15:44 Anduck: how is it 365 then?
21:15:51 fractal: Anduck: Sure. but thats not what the bet says.
21:16:13 Anduck: the bet talks about advertised performance
21:16:15 fractal: a UNIT was , as advertised , "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- this does not do 400Gh.
21:16:15 rulother-tab: I think if in the end it does the total hashing power then that's all that matters
21:16:24 Anduck: and it does that
21:16:27 Anduck: the unit does that
21:16:29 pankkake: if the bet resolves as Yes I would be happy because fractal will be unhappy. if the bet is No I will be happy because I get my money back. cool!
21:16:40 fractal: rulother-tab: I agree, but thats not what the language of the bet says
21:16:49 fractal: pankkake: wow, you are a jerk.
21:16:56 pankkake: no you are
21:16:59 rulother-tab: Lol
21:17:05 Anduck: there's no way it should end up as a no since all the requirements are met.
21:17:13 fractal: pankkake: I never wish other people to be unhappy. you're not very nice.
21:17:30 fractal: All the requirements of the bet are not met.... The 400Gh unit is only 365Gh
21:17:32 rulother-tab: Welcome to the world of bitcoin
21:17:50 Anduck: 256 chips does that 365, full 400gh unit does 400gh
21:17:58 Anduck: the chip amount changed, allright?
21:18:08 Anduck: performance of the 400g unit DID not
21:18:15 fractal: rulother-tab: Its great that they got more then what they ordered. But what is at debate here is what a 400Gh unit is. At the time the bet was made it was defined at "a UNIT was , as advertised , "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- and that only does 365Gh. which means all conditions of the bet are not met
21:18:28 fractal: Anduck: The 400Gh unit is only 365Gh
21:18:41 pankkake: you're disengenious and keep repeating things about chips that are completely irrelevant
21:18:52 pankkake: you deserve to be unhappy
21:18:55 fractal: pankkake: I'm repeating whats relevent to the bet.
21:19:04 fractal: pankkake: again, you're a jerk.
21:19:09 pankkake: it's not
21:19:26 pankkake: and you're a bigger jerk
21:19:41 fractal: yes it is, because people assumed the 400Gh unit was a UNIT was , "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips" -- thats what they based their bet on.... to say otherwise is a bait and switch scam, fraud, and nothing more.
21:20:06 fractal: pankkake: well, if you side with bait and switch fraudsters who can change the definition of a UNIT after the fact, then I guess i shouldn't worry about you calling me a jerk
21:20:20 pankkake: aren't you tired of copy/pasting?
21:20:57 tyrion70: jezus guys.. i feel like an atheist in between catholics and jehova's witnesses
21:21:11 mircea_popescu: this thing can only possibly get thicker.
21:21:24 pankkake: 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips 1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips 1 Master b
21:21:34 fractal: pankkake: absolutely. I'm sure Anduck is also tired of pretending a KIT/UNIT is more then what was advertised.
21:22:10 Anduck: it's actually more than advertised but that's not relevant
21:22:26 Anduck: it does the 400gh as promised, that is relevant. and that it does it at promised efficiency
21:22:34 fractal: pankkake: No, it only does 365Gh.
21:22:39 fractal: *anduck
21:22:39 Anduck: the chip amount has changed. this is not as relevant
21:22:51 fractal: the 400Gh unit is infact a 365Gh unit.
21:22:56 Anduck: yeah with the old amount of chips it would do 365gh but the kit had to make 400gh so they had to add more chips
21:23:04 Anduck: ending up with a 400gh kit performing >400gh at <400W
21:23:05 fractal: Thats not what the bet said.
21:23:14 fractal: Again, we can only go by the language of the bet.
21:23:21 Anduck: the bet only addressed the promise of performance, not the promise of chip count
21:23:23 pankkake: what part of the bet mentions the number of chips?
21:24:09 fractal: pankkake: as advertised.
21:24:23 pankkake: *performance* as advertised
21:24:34 fractal: 400Gh UNIT was advertised as "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips for total of 256 chips"
21:24:40 fractal: this 'UNIT' is only 356Gh
21:25:17 pankkake: :|
21:25:40 fractal: lol
21:26:52 fractal: To be honest -- if there ever was a case to invalidate a bet -- i think this would be it...
21:27:39 fractal: Hopefully everyone can learn a lesson from this -- and realize that bet language must be very specific.
21:27:54 fractal: Otherwise people will try to change what a UNIT means after the fact
21:28:45 Anduck: why would the bet be invalidated?
21:28:48 Anduck: it's clear
21:28:58 tyrion70: because you are both right...
21:29:11 Anduck: but the bet doesn't address the unit chip count right?
21:29:26 tyrion70: it doesn't specify what a unit is.. so it might..
21:29:33 Anduck: only the performance of the units that was 25gh and 400gh unit? the chip count that was promised got changed in both units, yes
21:29:36 tyrion70: then again it might not..
21:29:53 Anduck: but the bet doesn't talk about chip count
21:30:00 Anduck: it only talks about performance of the units
21:30:10 tyrion70: yes but it does not define a unit..
21:30:11 fractal: Anduck: for the record, even MXRider calls them 2 units -- "Some info and pictures of my units: 400GH unit and 25GH unit."
21:30:15 Anduck: each unit includes enough stuff to make 400gh
21:30:29 tyrion70: that's the debate anduck..
21:30:38 tyrion70: and to answer that there is not enough info in the bet..
21:30:39 fractal: Anduck: the post you're using to prove your point disagrees with you. He says "Some info and pictures of my units: 400GH unit and 25GH unit."
21:30:57 Anduck: tyrion70: when the bet talks about unit (25gh and 400gh) it means the kits you can buy from shop (25gh and 400gh), isn't that very clear?
21:31:05 Anduck: i am not proving a point
21:31:20 Anduck: i am trying to make the bet to resolve correctly
21:31:29 tyrion70: anduck, yes which would mean that one would have to visit their site in order to see what a "unit" is..
21:31:56 tyrion70: then at the site one would see that a kit containts 1 m board and 16 h boards..
21:32:08 Anduck: tyrion70: so there's no info about what hardware the unit has? though it's not important, only the hashrate and efficiency is
21:32:22 tyrion70: then the bet would always be yes..........
21:32:37 tyrion70: could..
21:32:49 tyrion70: like I said..
21:32:51 fractal: Anduck: tyrion70 is explaining exactly why people can technically read the bet different to others.... you have to at least realize this
21:33:02 Anduck: what the site says about the performance:
21:33:02 Anduck: Performance:
21:33:03 Anduck: 400GHash/s
21:33:03 Anduck: Total power draw max. 400W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
21:33:08 tyrion70: of KnC would ship two boxes for a jupiter..
21:33:15 tyrion70: it would not be one unit right??
21:33:30 Anduck: tyrion70: bfsb boards werent sold in boxes
21:33:32 fractal: Anduck: which includes "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips "
21:33:33 tyrion70: even if it hashed at 400gh/1kw
21:33:34 Anduck: they were sold as cards and boards
21:33:40 Anduck: and those formed in as units
21:33:48 fractal: Anduck: A unit is whatever fits on 1 M-board
21:33:51 Anduck: units that are same as kits as we talked earlier
21:33:54 Anduck: fractal: no! lol
21:34:01 Anduck: what definition is that??
21:34:01 tyrion70: yeah so you could read a unit as 1 m board and 16 h boards..
21:34:10 fractal: Anduck: any rational person would come to that conclusion.
21:34:18 Anduck: tyrion70: can you also read that a unit is 1 m-board and 1 h-board?
21:34:24 tyrion70: yes
21:34:26 Anduck: no, they're KITS that are built from boards and cards
21:34:36 Anduck: the kit is same thing is a unit - as we talked earlier
21:34:37 fractal: Anduck: BUT the website says that KIT is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips "
21:34:45 Anduck: fractal: yes it does. and it changed
21:34:47 mircea_popescu: i wonder if this discussion has hashed worth a block by now.
21:34:49 Anduck: but the performance did not
21:34:53 tyrion70: exactly..
21:34:56 Anduck: the bet wasnt about chip count
21:34:59 Anduck: it was about performance
21:35:00 tyrion70: it changed.. so it invalidates the bet..
21:35:16 tyrion70: Bets can indeed be cancelled, but only if BitBet judges that material changes make the bet meaningless.
21:35:18 Anduck: the 25gh and 400gh units performance. both units got chips added but the performance promise is met
21:35:21 tyrion70: quote from bbet
21:35:57 tyrion70: the bet was talking about "a unit"...
21:35:59 fractal: Anduck: the 400GH 'UNIT' does infact only hash at 365-380Gh.
21:36:11 tyrion70: and "a unit" changed during the course of the bet correct anduck?
21:36:15 fractal: even genesisblock calls it a UNIT.. 16 h-bards on 1 m-board
21:36:18 Anduck: 1 m-board with 256 chips does that.
21:36:34 Anduck: tyrion70: unit is the kit. we already talked about this. it's the only way to understand it as thats the only thing defined
21:36:47 tyrion70: and they changed the kit correct?
21:36:48 Anduck: when the bet talks about unit, it means the kit
21:36:52 Anduck: yes
21:36:53 Anduck: they changed the kit
21:37:01 Anduck: they changed the unit
21:37:01 tyrion70: exactly..
21:37:02 FabianB_: mircea_popescu: it's more of a loop of same input again and again
21:37:03 Anduck: thats same thing
21:37:05 Anduck: they changed it, true
21:37:10 tyrion70: so it invalidates the bet..
21:37:10 Anduck: but the PERFORMANCE is still the same
21:37:14 Anduck: no it does not
21:37:26 tyrion70: that depends on how you see a unit anduck...
21:37:38 tyrion70: and by changing the definition of a kit they changed the perspective..
21:37:42 Anduck: if unit===kit, kit gets more chips added === unit gets more chips added
21:37:59 Anduck: the unit must mean the kit since thats what's defined
21:38:04 tyrion70: thus invalidating the bet..
21:38:17 Anduck: and it's the logical way. the other way would be to think that 1 unit is 1 full m-board. but thats not how it's defined
21:38:33 fractal: Performance is only 1 aspect of the bet -- there are many conditions. 1) it has to ship by sept 1 - yes 2) 5 people have to post it on forums - yes 3) the 400Gh 'UNIT' as defined at the time of writing should hash at 400Gh. - no.
21:38:33 tyrion70: it isn't defined at all..
21:38:41 Anduck: since there's no such thing as unit defined.. but the kit is defined at bfsb.com
21:38:59 tyrion70: yes so one could argue that a unit == kit ==256 chips..
21:39:14 fractal: Anduck: any rational person would assume the 400Gh unit to be a KIT as defined on the BFSB.com website.
21:39:16 tyrion70: and now they changed it to ~300 chips..
21:39:35 fractal: Anduck: If they never shipped a 'UNIT' then I guess the bet is invalid, since they only shipped 'KITS'?
21:40:09 Anduck: the unit is the same thing as kit. the bet says "25 gh and 400gh unit" and bitfurystrikesback sells 25gh kit and 400gh kit so you can pretty much say those are the same
21:40:17 Anduck: do you disagree?
21:40:21 Anduck: we already talked about this earlier
21:40:34 fractal: OK, and a 400Gh unit, according to the Genesisbloack, and MXRider is defined at 1 M-board and 16 H-cards
21:40:39 tyrion70: yes but you only remember half of what I said there apparently anduck..
21:40:40 fractal: and it only does 365gh
21:40:58 Anduck: tyrion70: yeah, unit==kit==256 chips but it got changed to ~300 chips. but it maintained the promised performance
21:41:09 Anduck: tyrion70: i remember the conclusion
21:41:11 tyrion70: that depends on your viewpoint anduck..
21:41:28 tyrion70: you add $ to the equasion...
21:41:39 Anduck: hmm?
21:41:47 Anduck: people didn't need to pay for the hardware change of the unit
21:41:49 tyrion70: it's a silent dollar but its there..
21:41:58 fractal: Anduck: don't you think if NO bettors bet based on one definition of UNIT, and then the definition of a UNIT changed, then it's disingenuous to people who bet no?
21:42:01 tyrion70: wait
21:42:04 tyrion70: lemme explain this..
21:42:15 tyrion70: if you would have had to pay more for this board...
21:42:18 Anduck: how did it change fractal?
21:42:22 Anduck: unit refers to the 400gh kit, right
21:42:24 tyrion70: would you still think its a yes anduck?
21:42:27 Anduck: tyrion70: yes
21:42:28 fractal: Anduck: 1 UNIT is "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips "
21:42:32 Anduck: tyrion70: o i mean no
21:42:36 tyrion70: ok
21:42:42 tyrion70: so you added a variable to the bet..
21:42:44 Anduck: if i had to pay more, it would definately be a no
21:42:45 tyrion70: $..
21:42:50 Anduck: what?
21:42:52 tyrion70: but that $ is not in the bet..
21:43:06 Anduck: fractal: 1 unit is 1 kit
21:43:11 tyrion70: your viewpoint is in dollars..
21:43:22 tyrion70: fractals viewpoint is in chips..
21:43:25 Anduck: the bet was about kit performance.
21:43:31 Anduck: the performance of the kit is as promised
21:43:36 Anduck: what's unclear?
21:43:46 tyrion70: well why would it be a no if they asked for 100$?
21:43:50 Anduck: that someone think unit is strictly 256 chips as they said?
21:43:51 tyrion70: on what grounds?
21:43:58 fractal: In my view as well, getting more hardware is the same as if the manufacturer missed performance, let them keep the 365Gh UNIT, and offered a $ refund.
21:44:09 Anduck: tyrion70: why are you adding this money variable here since it's totally irrelevant
21:44:29 tyrion70: its relevant because you don't recognize it as being a variable..
21:44:32 Anduck: but the customer orders 400ghash unit, gets the 400ghash unit, whats the missed performance then?
21:44:54 fractal: Anduck: But they didn't get a 400Gh unit. they got a 365Gh unit.
21:44:57 Anduck: customer pays 15000 usd for the 400ghash unit and gets 400 ghash unit for that 15000 usd
21:45:00 tyrion70: what I mean to say is that you look at it from a dollar perspective..
21:45:10 tyrion70: yes
21:45:11 Anduck: fractal: every customer who bought 400gh unit will or did already get 400gh unit.
21:45:28 Anduck: the unit just includes more chips than what was promised
21:45:29 tyrion70: and fractal payed for a 256 chip 400ghash unit and gets 400 ghash with 300 chips...
21:45:50 tyrion70: that's a different viewpoint..
21:46:01 tyrion70: and both chipcount and dollars are not in the bet description..
21:46:10 tyrion70: hence they are both valid or invalid..
21:46:12 Anduck: but he gets what he paid for, performance wise, right? the bet was only about performance, not about the hardware of the unit
21:46:39 tyrion70: ok why can't he disagree on 30 more chips.. and you can disagree on 30 more $??
21:46:43 tyrion70: what's the difference?
21:46:47 fractal: Anduck: But the definition of a unit , as advertised by bsfb.com, was "1 Master board 16 hashing boards with 16 Bitfury 55nm ASIC chips " -- and it is not 400Gh
21:46:49 Anduck: tyrion70: there's only performance requirement for the kit. 400gh kit must do 400gh at <400W
21:46:57 fractal: Anduck: thats not what the bet says
21:47:00 Anduck: fractal: thats the definition yes and it chanegd
21:47:04 tyrion70: you just said, if you had to pay more it was a no right?
21:47:05 Anduck: it totally changed, so what?
21:47:40 fractal: So what is that its not fair to NO betters who based their bets on the definition of a UNIT as advertsied at the time of writing the bet.
21:47:49 kakobrekla: interestingly enough, the bet doesnt even mention asic chips.
21:47:59 Anduck: because the bet doesn't address the unit hardware, only the unit performance!!!
21:48:06 Anduck: indeed
21:48:11 fractal: And the performance of the UNIT was not 400Gh
21:48:12 tyrion70: anduck..
21:48:13 Anduck: they could've shipped GPU's worth of 400 ghash
21:48:14 fractal: it was 365Gh
21:48:18 tyrion70: if it only mentions performance..
21:48:30 tyrion70: why would the bet be a no if you had to pay 30$ more?
21:48:32 Anduck: but too bad 400 gigahash of GPU's would draw more than >400W so the performance requirement wouldnt be met
21:48:35 fractal: ok, i'll remove the chip count from the description... and add 1-raspberry pi
21:48:50 Anduck: tyrion70: "Bitfury EU August orders"
21:48:59 Anduck: when you pay for your order, it's an order
21:49:10 Anduck: if you get an option to buy something more, it's a different order
21:49:11 tyrion70: where does it state how much it should cost?
21:49:29 fractal: 1 UNIT is, as advertised - "1 Master board. 16 hashing boards. 1 Raspberry Pi Model B"
21:49:31 tyrion70: in the bet..
21:49:53 Anduck: fractal: and that changed to more hardware, performance of the unit is still kept as promised
21:50:09 fractal: Anduck: No, performance of the UNIT as defined in the bet is 365Gh
21:50:09 Anduck: you can't talk about 1 unit to be that since there was a different unit/kit available too
21:50:24 tyrion70: ok
21:50:25 Anduck: they didnt define chips or hardware in the bet
21:50:26 fractal: Anduck: the bet specifically mentions the 400Gh unit.
21:50:31 tyrion70: anduck..
21:50:34 tyrion70: what if..
21:50:42 tyrion70: bitfury.. instead of giving more hardware...
21:50:46 Anduck: bitfurystrikesback.com product description of the 400gh unit:
21:50:47 Anduck: Performance:
21:50:47 Anduck: 400GHash/s
21:50:47 Anduck: Total power draw max. 400W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
21:50:53 fractal: INCLUDES:- "1 Master board. 16 hashing boards. 1 Raspberry Pi Model B"
21:50:59 tyrion70: gave you a 1-m and 16h board with 200$?
21:51:08 tyrion70: would it be a no?
21:51:13 Anduck: tyrion70: it wouldn't produce 400gh so no
21:51:59 Anduck: but the bet addresses performance only, not chip amount
21:52:09 fractal: Anduck: the 400Gh unit doesn't produce 400Gh... it produces 365Gh..... the extra hardware is shipped to make up for performance misses..... its VERY GOOD PR and means bitfury is a great company, but it also means not all condiitons of the bet were met.
21:52:26 Anduck: one orders 400gh, he gets 400gh. it performs 400gh.
21:52:42 tyrion70: isn't that kind of weird anduck?
21:52:55 Anduck: no?
21:53:08 tyrion70: the performance of the machine should stay the same
21:53:14 fractal: Anduck: thats right.... nobody is disagreeing with that. We're talking about the bet language which defines a UNIT as as advertised - "1 Master board. 16 hashing boards. 1 Raspberry Pi Model B" -- this is 365Gh
21:53:23 tyrion70: I'd expect a unit to have a performance..
21:53:30 Anduck: it does define the unit to be 400gh unit or 25gh unit
21:53:36 Anduck: it doesnt address the hardware the unit includes
21:53:51 Anduck: it only addresses the PERFORMANCE of the unit
21:53:57 fractal: Anduck: yes it does. bfsb.com says the hardware unit is "as advertised - "1 Master board. 16 hashing boards. 1 Raspberry Pi Model B""
21:54:03 Anduck: only the performance must be met, nothing about hardware itself
21:54:15 tyrion70: ok but it means that bitfury can influence the outcome of the bet with a technicality..
21:54:16 Anduck: fractal: yeah but thats not the performance promise lol
21:54:26 fractal: a UNIT has to have performance. and the definition of the UNIT is what bfsb.com says -as advertised - "1 Master board. 16 hashing boards. 1 Raspberry Pi Model B"
21:54:28 Anduck: tyrion70: how so?
21:54:52 Anduck: bitfurystrikesback defines their 400gh kit performance this way:
21:54:53 Anduck: Performance:
21:54:53 Anduck: 400GHash/s
21:54:54 Anduck: Total power draw max. 400W (Efficiency at wall depends on your PSU)
21:54:59 Anduck: that is what the bet talks about, right?
21:55:00 tyrion70: well.. if they bet on Yes they would fix that with this solution.. whilst not improving the hardware itself..
21:55:16 fractal: For a UNIT to have performance, there has to be a UNIT that someone can speak of .... the UNIT is question is " "1 Master board. 16 hashing boards. 1 Raspberry Pi Model B"
21:55:35 Anduck: tyrion70: they could do whatever they want, add or remove the hardware. think about that what if 1 h-card produced 50 ghash
21:55:49 Anduck: would they ship 16 h-cards as promised for 400gh unit?
21:55:55 Anduck: no, they would ship 400gh worth of h-cards
21:56:05 fractal: Anduck: then the bet would be a yes. it would over-perform.
21:56:11 tyrion70: well if I ordered them and I cleared shelves in my rack I'd be very sad if they were 10 times as large as advertized...
21:56:20 Anduck: which would only make it 8 h-cards. the customer buys 400gh unit. 400gh unit produces 400gh
21:56:23 tyrion70: From my viewpoint they would not meet performance..
21:57:42 Anduck: it's not really relevant does the kit include 10000 chips or 10 chips to make the 400gh unit hash that 400gh. the requirement in the bet was that 400gh unit hashes 400gh at <400W
21:57:56 Anduck: and that is met.
21:58:20 tyrion70: they changed the definition of a unit halfway the bet..
21:58:27 Anduck: how?
21:58:37 Anduck: the unit is 400gh unit. unit produces 400gh < 400W
21:58:38 tyrion70: by making it larger..
21:58:40 Anduck: yeah
21:58:44 Anduck: but performance didnt change
21:58:49 Anduck: the bet was only about performance, not about sizee
21:59:14 tyrion70: but apparently it was about dollars..
21:59:14 fractal: Anduck: The bet says performance for a 400Gh UNIT.
21:59:21 fractal: the definition of a UNIT here is very important.
21:59:29 tyrion70: cuz if you had to pay more it would have been a no..
21:59:42 saulimus: you've been talking about this for more than an hour
21:59:51 Anduck: weve talked about this for about 6-7 hours
22:00:10 saulimus: stop talking then, it's clearly going nowhere
22:00:19 Anduck: the bet doesnt require certain chip amount, only performance promise must be met
22:00:21 Anduck: yups
22:00:21 tyrion70: only 2,5 hours to go :p
22:00:34 Anduck: 2 hours now!
22:00:37 tyrion70: :)
22:00:45 fractal: saulimus is right.... I'll unilaterally stop discussion for a while. so I can regain my sanity.
22:00:59 tyrion70: we'll see what they decide..
22:01:08 tyrion70: glad i didn't bet :p
22:01:46 fractal: I think this is a serious discussion to have If i were bitbet.... its clear they shipped on time and are a great company .... but the language of the bet here -- specifically what a 'UNIT' is defined as-- is very important.
22:01:55 fractal: I hope they dont decide without a long discussion
22:03:24 tyrion70: :)
22:03:31 fractal: be back later...
22:03:37 fractal: my fingers hurt ;)
22:04:23 tyrion70: ciao
22:07:25 Lomus: PETA-MINE worth it?
22:08:26 jurov: Lomus yes, no animals harmed
22:08:40 jurov: jkjk
22:08:46 mircea_popescu: ll
22:08:54 jurov: deposits flushed
22:09:02 jurov: ^ thestringluller
22:10:58 zoinky: does BTCT have a websocket?
22:11:05 zoinky: wheres assbot get its feed?
22:12:07 pankkake: it doesn't have a web socket, at least not a public one. even the "realtime" thing is just a page refreshed every other second
22:15:42 zoinky: yeah
22:15:44 zoinky: noticed that
22:16:01 zoinky: so is the easiest way to get a feed to have a ircbot watching assbot?
22:17:48 rulother-tab: Krytotrade.com is neat
22:35:01 zoinky: who runs assbot?
22:36:17 mircea_popescu: kakobrekla
22:51:01 thestringpuller: !last btctc dms.selling
23:10:49 Rulother-pc: Good good
23:13:20 kleeck_: eeeeexcelent
23:26:27 ThickAsThieves: ;;ticker
23:26:32 ThickAsThieves: ;;nethash
23:26:35 ThickAsThieves: ;;estimate
23:27:04 pankkake: ;;ticker --bitstamp
23:27:13 pankkake: ;;ticker --market bitstamp
23:27:56 rulother-tab: Not bad