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Transcript for 31-08-2014, 1046 lines:

00:07:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00085109 = 5.447 BTC [-]

00:07:14 thestringpuller: i am about to go into a panel on bitcoin lol

00:08:15 thestringpuller: cazalla: this is great point

00:15:56 mircea_popescu: http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com/?quote=240 lawl

00:15:56 assbot: #bitcoin-assets bash

00:16:43 decimation: lol The20YearIRCloud that's an amusing post

00:18:51 mircea_popescu: uomoletale ahajhajaja

00:18:56 mircea_popescu: !up blast

00:19:12 blast: huzza

00:19:21 mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud i don't get what this "let's all go huddle together" thing is supposed to do.

00:19:51 mircea_popescu: seems of the ilk of "island of women" and "tower of song", ie, cheap notional filler for "virtual spaces" a la video games

00:20:22 blast: but the island of woman is real, except its a mountain, in brazil ;D

00:20:23 mircea_popescu: ;;google tvtropes planet of hats

00:20:23 gribble: Main/Planet of Hats - Television Tropes & Idioms - TV Tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats; Webcomic/Planet of Hats - Television Tropes & Idioms - TV Tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Webcomic/PlanetOfhats; Main/Planet of Copyhats - Television Tropes & Idioms - TV Tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfCopyhats

00:20:58 mircea_popescu: blast romania has this too. it's called gaina, which is how you say hen, and it's the place surpluss women were taken by their tribe for to sell over to another tribe for > 5k years.

00:21:19 penguirker: New blog post: http://contravex.com/2014/08/30/im-big-in-fuzhou/

00:23:20 mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud: There's a town close to me that once every year auctions off 250-350 safe deposit box contents, you bid per box and don't know what is in them. All are seized from people who either didn't pay up or forgot about em << isn't there a reality show predicated on this process ?

00:24:09 mircea_popescu: decimation lmao at those terms. so... why get it then ?

00:24:26 asciilifeform: i thought those go to the basement of 'the fed' in wash., d.c.

00:24:37 asciilifeform: it is said to contain a great many.

00:25:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: 'swat' post: am i the only one who instantly thought of this: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/files/2009/09/14-sovietleaderleonidbrezhnevandeas.jpg

00:26:01 mircea_popescu: lol

00:26:43 mircea_popescu: someone should morph http://fraudsters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/swatted.png to the lemons kissing.

00:26:52 mircea_popescu: as a gif. enough nightmare fuel there for a week

00:27:34 thestringpuller: theu are talking aboit the collapse of mtgox

00:27:34 thestringpuller: i will be referwncing fraudsters

00:28:09 thestringpuller: wow lag beyond trade engine lag

00:28:11 mircea_popescu: decimation: asciilifeform: unfortunately if the "from whom" is usg in its many forms, the answer is largely: nowhere << bs lol.

00:29:04 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'usg' in that context also includes all 'decay daughters' thereof

00:29:20 asciilifeform: i.e., armed thugs turned free-agent when the whole thing finally blows

00:29:26 mircea_popescu: sure.

00:29:33 mircea_popescu: even so.

00:30:33 asciilifeform: in my experience, folks preoccupied with hidey-holes tend to neglect the question of where they intend to hide... their arse

00:30:36 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21300 @ 0.00085067 = 18.1193 BTC [-] {2}

00:30:58 mircea_popescu: meanwhile back at reality ranch, obtaining superior fire power in a limited geographical area is a trivial task.

00:31:03 mircea_popescu: the usg collapsing doesn't make it harder.

00:31:09 asciilifeform: while supplies last.

00:32:27 mircea_popescu: for everyone. this is not a valid objection any more than saying "for as long as gravity is still in force"

00:32:28 asciilifeform: and if it becomes generally known that, e.g., a Castle Moldenstein, contains a bunker full of goodies - there is the incentive for all-comers to soften the target.

00:33:20 asciilifeform: the best castle wall is - distance. works even on nukes.

00:35:31 mircea_popescu: it's not as simple as that.

00:35:48 mircea_popescu: take any stirkingly beautiful woman walking into a bar. is she more likely or less likely to be hit on ?

00:36:00 asciilifeform: point, yes

00:36:01 mircea_popescu: any supermodel material chick will tell you nobody dares, on the assumption.

00:36:20 mircea_popescu: so, some may try to soften the target, which allows the target to populate the road towards it with heads on pikes.

00:36:29 mircea_popescu: which is the point of a "justice system" in the first place.

00:36:48 mircea_popescu: overall, these would be "softeners" work as hardeners and are quite useful.

00:37:12 asciilifeform: there are folks (in usa) working on this variant as we speak. the ones that succeed and aren't provocateur shills - we'll know because none of them are on the net.

00:37:40 mircea_popescu: and which is why it's so important to get the message loud and clear to any bureaucrat anywhere, that if it comes to war, and we win, he will hang.

00:37:50 mircea_popescu: no questions asked, and his children will be raped for the public record.

00:38:11 asciilifeform: if this happens - it'll be a historic first, afaik.

00:38:32 asciilifeform: ussr, for instance, did no such thing when germany lost.

00:39:04 mircea_popescu: ussr isn't remembered for having been led by the smartest people ever.

00:39:04 asciilifeform: how does one say 'приспособленец' in english ?

00:39:13 asciilifeform: that's who most of the muppets in question are

00:39:48 mircea_popescu: but yes, the "no historical precedent" is what the bureaucrat instinctively answers

00:39:56 mircea_popescu: it was on display earlier in this very chan.

00:40:00 asciilifeform: naturally.

00:40:18 mircea_popescu: here's a thought : everything that has historical precendent now didn't originally.

00:40:20 asciilifeform: led by the smartest people ever << aye. witness that there are 'ukrainians' alive.

00:41:12 mircea_popescu: on the strenght of the zero one infinity rule alone, and of the banal observation that bitcoin also has no historical precendent, it seems... unwise to bet that 1 is the lucky number.

00:41:17 mircea_popescu: infinity seems infinitely more likely.

00:41:29 asciilifeform: inventions - happen.

00:41:59 asciilifeform: seems like we've this one nailed down. now, implementation... 'exercise for alert reader.'

00:42:44 []bot: Bet created: "BTC tops all time high before Christmas" http://bitbet.us/bet/1033/

00:43:08 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it will probably come down to "you're not in the wot, and so therefore may not claim to own property or pretend to sue anyone"

00:43:13 mircea_popescu: problem solved.

00:44:18 mircea_popescu: "your negative rating in the wot means you can be killed by anyone and nobody'll care or do anything about it"

00:44:44 mircea_popescu: now try and argue why it's not really fair that you're negrated because some major players didn't like your early anti-bitcoin involvement.

00:44:58 mircea_popescu: xmj experienced live a tiny case study of this general principle, originally.

00:50:35 []bot: Bet placed: 3.35069497 BTC for No on "BTC tops all time high before Christmas" http://bitbet.us/bet/1033/ Odds: 1(Y):99(N) by coin, 1(Y):99(N) by weight. Total bet: 3.45069497 BTC. Current weight: 99,995.

01:03:55 []bot: Bet created: "Bitcoin to drop under $350 before November" http://bitbet.us/bet/1034/

01:05:55 asciilifeform: killed by anyone << aha - 'homo sacer'

01:06:12 []bot: Bet created: "Any DERP to bite it" http://bitbet.us/bet/1035/

01:06:41 mircea_popescu: decimation: The20YearIRCloud: When I say "allodial title" I mean something like having the right to arrest anyone - including government employees - on your property << that';s maybe going a little far. but the right to quash any action of anyone involving that land is germane.

01:06:58 mircea_popescu: (you wouldn't be able to arrest anyone, but you would be able to void any application for a warrant)

01:07:27 []bot: Bet created: "20% difficulty increase before 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1036/

01:08:05 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: very few physical objects are worth the cost of raising an army to keep arbitrarily large horde of orcs away << this argument is flawed in the following way : for he who is repulsed by war, this holds true. for he who however enjoys war, no payment is necessary.

01:08:14 mircea_popescu: the relevant quote is in http://fraudsters.com/2013/a-very-unfair-perspective/ :

01:08:15 assbot: A very unfair perspective. pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

01:08:17 asciilifeform: if like war - straight to war.

01:08:19 mircea_popescu: There isn?t, nor is there going to be a way, manner, instrument or device through which to protect the passive from the active. If you?re not prepared and absolutely willing to spend any amount of time up to the entire rest of your life seeking out and butchering leeches with only the satifaction of well applied, excruciating cruelty as your reward, you?re not made for this world and you won?t long have a place

01:08:19 mircea_popescu: in it. This can?t be delegated, it?s a personal thing. Like citizenship. Like nationality. The only nation immune to the fate of Rhodesia is a nation of that kind of people, living in that kind of world.

01:08:34 mircea_popescu: and it links quite well into "what would the devil have to pay you for you to love him".

01:08:40 mircea_popescu: if you don't like living, you can't be paid to live.

01:08:50 mircea_popescu: if you like living, pay is not really a relevant consideration.

01:08:51 asciilifeform: but notice that active players in a war rarely occupy themselves with hiding valuables

01:08:57 mircea_popescu: quite.

01:09:07 mircea_popescu: because the fetish of value is not value

01:09:17 mircea_popescu: and people who like to live have enough sense to understand this difference.

01:09:31 asciilifeform: hold territory - sure. impale enemies - yes. bury treasure - why ?

01:10:33 asciilifeform: hence the sea capsule example. for some classes of object (nuke?) this might be cost-effective storage.

01:11:04 asciilifeform: (free up the men normally guarding for other pursuits; replace with king neptune, who can't be bribed and doesn't sleep)

01:11:20 mircea_popescu: kinda what the nuclear subs are anyway.

01:11:35 asciilifeform: yes. but those have engines, men, cost more.

01:13:27 asciilifeform: sea capsule is just a gedankenexperiment (though, i'm told, u.s. navy has insisted on actually trying.) i'm not altogether convinced that, properly carried out, it is cheaper than 'graveyard orbit'

01:23:41 mircea_popescu: not easy evaluating what such things cost.

01:24:18 []bot: Bet placed: 2.5 BTC for No on "20% difficulty increase before 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1036/ Odds: 2(Y):98(N) by coin, 2(Y):98(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.6 BTC. Current weight: 99,988.

01:24:33 decimation: re: allodial title: I suppose with reference to how it was practiced in medieval England, the king's agents could be on your property on business which has the mutual consent of the king and his lords

01:24:35 asciilifeform: i did tally up the cost, but the first anything naturally - expensive.

01:25:16 decimation: re:safe deposit box, my understanding is that these are the terms all banks in the us give for such things

01:25:30 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6334 @ 0.0008534 = 5.4054 BTC [+]

01:25:30 asciilifeform: drowning a box of strange in the atlantic is a considerably quieter operation than launching a rocket, however. so perhaps it wins.

01:25:33 mircea_popescu: decimation it's complicated, but in general property is the bane of human existence, so any absolute property has the potential to be absolutely murderous.

01:26:07 mircea_popescu: (look at what happened when people thought the church is a people, started donating a little to it and inadvertently created the largest landholder because unlike them, thge church didn;t die regularly)

01:26:15 decimation: I'm thinking of the mongols' advantage over the static empires of the east

01:26:20 asciilifeform: decimation: the point of the bank box story is that it was entirely unclear to me wtf is the very point of such a thing, given the caveats

01:26:53 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah I think the main point is that you might store papers and things that would be moderately annoying to replace in case of fire

01:27:00 decimation: certainly nothing of 'value'

01:27:11 asciilifeform: decimation: esp. since the one and only event that could reasonably be insured against - contents present at logged date N and absent on opening N+k - wasn't.

01:28:01 decimation: well I think those terms are 'aspirational' - it goes to the arbitration conversation from a few weeks ago. everyone wants a click-wrap eula that holds them immune from any liability

01:28:57 asciilifeform: implication, to me, was - if you're happy with the box, take your goodies and post them straight to the enemy - at least then you'll know where they are.

01:29:33 decimation: heh yeah agreed, especially if the 'value' of those items was simply the information on the documents

01:31:31 decimation: re: gult's gulch << I find it amusing that folks who supposedly value 'self-reliance' and 'liberty' are unable to actually fly to chile and buy some land for themselves, it can't be that hard for a person with means & brains

01:31:48 asciilifeform: decimation: see mircea_popescu's point earlier

01:32:11 asciilifeform: decimation: in usa, people have contracted the disease of thinking that money can substitute for everything, including brain and balls

01:32:12 mircea_popescu: <decimation> asciilifeform: yeah I think the main point is that you might store papers and things that would be moderately annoying to replace in case of fire << divorce.

01:32:49 asciilifeform: divorce << probably the worst possible use of a bank box in usa. other tidbit in the contract was that the bank will immediately impound any box against whose owner there are civil proceedings

01:33:14 decimation: in which case the courts will hand whatever valubles to the woman, 'to support the children'

01:33:19 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> decimation: in usa, people have contracted the disease of thinking that money can substitute for everything, including brain and balls << well their government kinda depends on this principle, so if it';s good enough for the king...

01:33:26 mircea_popescu: this is what fucking moral hazard means, incidentally.

01:34:20 asciilifeform: i can hardly picture a dumber hiding place then a container in a public place with your name on it.

01:34:21 mircea_popescu: ok, so no divorce, no flood http://www.cnbc.com/id/49972188

01:34:31 mircea_popescu: fire seems the only reason left :p

01:34:38 asciilifeform: fire was also excluded.

01:34:41 asciilifeform: 0 liability for bank.

01:35:35 mircea_popescu: seeing how supermarkets also offer lockable containers on the same premise as banks do

01:35:47 mircea_popescu: it seems to me it's time to go down on sam's club for acting like a bank w/o a license.

01:37:18 asciilifeform: upon reading of that contract, i came to inescapable conclusion that the box thing is an active chump-magnet rather than simply a poor deal.

01:37:54 mircea_popescu: basically, it's the living wage embodied.

01:37:59 mircea_popescu: everyone wants to be paid a rent for existing

01:38:03 mircea_popescu: banks not exluded.

01:38:06 The20YearIRCloud: safe deposit boxes?

01:38:35 asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: them.

01:38:53 The20YearIRCloud: Around here, most use coffee cans buried. Now you can go to a store and get a "underground safe"

01:38:59 decimation: let me look at my terms... yep, it excludes fire, explosion, intense heat, smoke, water (including fire suppression system) building collapse, terrorism, war, intentional destructive acts, or failures of electrical, mechanical, plumbing or structural systems, or for actions caused by any person

01:39:11 asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: field day for the folks with ground-penetrating radar.

01:39:24 asciilifeform: (not to be confused with 'mine detector' that every kid owns)

01:39:55 asciilifeform: decimation: my particular one even mentioned failure of the vault locks.

01:40:03 mircea_popescu: lol

01:40:06 mircea_popescu: hahaahah

01:40:14 mircea_popescu: dudes you gotta get out of the sticks, srsly.

01:41:18 The20YearIRCloud: I keep looking for GPR so i can take it to properties/estates I buy out

01:41:42 The20YearIRCloud: Once in a while I get the chance to buy a un-touched estate - Kids have no interest or are out of state, a trustee locks the property up and you bid on the real estate + all contents

01:42:07 asciilifeform: get out of the sticks << all of us in the sticks - are there for reasons.

01:42:15 asciilifeform: just like the other wretches stuck therein

01:42:15 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: yeah that's probably not a bad idea, radar would also find unpleasant surprises that are buried

01:42:28 The20YearIRCloud: Such as?

01:42:46 asciilifeform: decimation: the instrument in question is no military secret of any kind. contact a firm that lays pipes.

01:43:13 asciilifeform: or - build own.

01:43:14 mircea_popescu: <The20YearIRCloud> Such as? << dead hookers, for one.

01:43:29 The20YearIRCloud: I don't know that they can be built, the costs were exorbant for non-military types

01:43:35 asciilifeform: incidentally, if burial is recent, a searcher can use 'nazi method'

01:43:43 The20YearIRCloud: and the thing is, for the most part the world is a big big place and GPR is very limited in what it can do

01:43:47 asciilifeform: that is, pour water, see how quickly it absorbs

01:43:49 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: barrels of toxic waste?

01:44:12 The20YearIRCloud: Or mason jars full of old coins :D

01:45:03 mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud here's an exercise for you. today you find in a yard 1k coins of 10 grams each, minted 1750.

01:45:04 asciilifeform: when digging my garden (moved out of microscopic flat in late may, into a rented house) i found intact glass bottles, with caps on. appear to contain decades-old 'coca cola.'

01:45:11 mircea_popescu: how much is this find worth in dollars ?

01:45:38 mircea_popescu: (gold coins, i mean)

01:45:58 The20YearIRCloud: One guy found around $200k in his back yard in my area

01:46:10 decimation: there was this story last year: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-buried-california-gold-coins-auction-20140528-story.html

01:46:11 assbot: Rare gold coins buried in California hit market; one fetches $15,000 - LA Times

01:46:11 asciilifeform: how much he kept from the 200 ?

01:46:18 The20YearIRCloud: Depends on who minted them and the composition :D

01:46:29 asciilifeform: how much the crown took; how much - auctioneers

01:46:37 The20YearIRCloud: Even in the mid 1700s the quality of gold coins ranged from 50% to 92.5%

01:46:51 The20YearIRCloud: $15k isn't much for a 'rare gold coin'

01:46:54 mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud how much did he get to buy beer for ?

01:46:54 asciilifeform: plus such finds are generally sold for numismatic value, and not as bullion

01:46:57 asciilifeform: so anyone's guess

01:47:05 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: that was one coin out of 1400

01:47:18 mircea_popescu: (in general your take is about the same as if publishing a book : about 5 to 10% after govt, agent, editor etc is done raping you)

01:47:23 The20YearIRCloud: But usually the sensationalist media takes the biggest/best one to start it off with

01:47:25 decimation: :The so-called Saddle Ridge Hoard, made up of denominations of $5, $10 and $20, could bring in $10 million when the sale is all said and done, with several pieces expected to command prices as high as $1 million, experts say."

01:47:40 The20YearIRCloud: heck we had a local auctioneer do one guy's coin collection, the whole collection fit on a few small tables and sold for $350k

01:47:42 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and this isn't even considering the variant with spurious lawsuits

01:47:50 mircea_popescu: indeed.

01:47:57 decimation: one wonders about the potential 'laundry' being done off of such a rich stash

01:47:59 asciilifeform: for instance, IANAL, but i can easily picture, e.g, a landlord, arguing 'mineral rights' on the coins.

01:48:50 asciilifeform: or - to make life more interesting - let's say that you find a sealed crate of kalashes, in cosmoline, rather than coins.

01:49:26 decimation: or barrels of toxic waste

01:49:48 asciilifeform: or 'mustard gas' - as happened in early 2000s near an embassy in d.c.

01:50:25 decimation: heh didn't hear about that til now http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/jan99/mustard24.htm

01:50:26 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah that's where saddam was keeping his chem weapons ?

01:50:29 asciilifeform: worth what? plenty. liquidate it? more likely, your organs will be sold to pay for it carted away

01:50:37 mircea_popescu: o wait, it wasn't him. it was bush that hung for this

01:50:48 asciilifeform: lol

01:51:16 The20YearIRCloud: If I find a box of AKs here in the US there's nothing to do but leap for joy

01:51:26 decimation: "Army officials say the canisters, if they exist, do not pose a threat to the affluent Spring Valley neighborhood as long as they remain undisturbed." << "it's okay for you"

01:51:31 asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: afaik+ianal - it depends where in usa.

01:51:50 The20YearIRCloud: Theoretically it'd be possible to sell them in any state if you take the right steps

01:52:07 The20YearIRCloud: if they're real-deal AKs you just demill the reciever, then the rest can be sold

01:52:08 asciilifeform: if they're the real thing (full auto) - you're probably bankrupt just staying out of court

01:52:19 asciilifeform: sold as scrap, yes.

01:52:22 The20YearIRCloud: if they're semi autos, they can be sold to out of state

01:52:30 The20YearIRCloud: Scrap = Worth $300-$3000 depending on make

01:52:52 asciilifeform: to go back to the example with coins - you're probably safe if you melt them down and sell by gram

01:52:56 decimation: start stashing 7.62 ammo and raise army

01:52:57 The20YearIRCloud: The serial numbered portion is the only part essentially that's illegal

01:52:57 asciilifeform: but this destroys most of the value of the find

01:53:09 asciilifeform: so we're no longer answering the question of what the find per se is worth, in that case.

01:53:21 The20YearIRCloud: With regards to coins, you only need to avoid the very, very limited types that are assumed to be stolen from the mint

01:53:55 asciilifeform: eventually, the soviet denouement is that all precious metal is presumed 'stolen from mint.'

01:54:04 The20YearIRCloud: Other than that, it's pretty easy to stay quiet, and slowly sell off the horde without signfiicant attention

01:54:52 asciilifeform: other interesting thing about treasure is that, afaik, your tax liability officially begins when the shovel opens the box

01:55:07 asciilifeform: see the many stories of lotto winners who take home mazeratis and then go bankrupt

01:55:17 decimation: asciilifeform: brings to mind the play quoted by Mr. Yarvin where the kulak is found guilty of hording foreign currency in basement

01:55:33 asciilifeform: khruschev turned this into a hanging offense. retroactively.

01:55:54 asciilifeform: (gold, rather than foreign currency, in that case, but applied across the board)

01:57:34 The20YearIRCloud: In the us , gold hording could be jailable, but silver hording was encouraged

01:58:08 The20YearIRCloud: speaking of the 30s-50s

01:58:18 asciilifeform: silver, at the time, (and largely still today) being primarily an industrial metal - the supply was already safely corralled.

01:58:49 decimation: yeah back in the early 1900's the whole idea of the 'silver dollar' was the precursor to the modern bezzle

01:59:28 The20YearIRCloud: Us silver coin production was astronomical

01:59:51 decimation: after 'backing' your currency with relatively worthless metal, the next logical step being to 'back' it with nothing it all

01:59:58 asciilifeform: they occasionally turn up in loose change even now.

02:00:27 decimation: silver makes excellent electrical conductors though.

02:00:47 asciilifeform: decimation: understand why it is rarely used as such.

02:00:50 The20YearIRCloud: Right now it's about 1:10,000 in dimes, and about 1:25,000 in quarters

02:00:57 asciilifeform: (while gold is king in all fine electronics)

02:00:58 The20YearIRCloud: and around 1:1,000 from halves

02:01:00 asciilifeform: oxidation.

02:01:09 decimation: asciilifeform: yeah oxidation, terrible contacts

02:01:29 decimation: gold however...

02:02:12 decimation: gold actually has worse conductance than copper, but it doesn't oxidize

02:02:42 asciilifeform: usually the absolute conductivity isn't critical. resistance to corrosion and heat conductivity - is.

02:03:28 asciilifeform: copper plated with gold is more or less 'best of worlds'

02:03:57 The20YearIRCloud: Well, considering how little of the connection is used for the gold, it makes plenty of sense

02:04:06 decimation: ie your ENIG boards

02:04:11 The20YearIRCloud: gold connectors are usually large, so there's more conductivity (due to lower resistence)

02:04:13 asciilifeform: and everybody's.

02:04:33 The20YearIRCloud: Although theoretically silver wire with gold connectors would be the bee's knees

02:04:34 decimation: gold is also used exclusively to connect pins to chip dies if I recall correctly

02:04:41 The20YearIRCloud: That's also true

02:04:43 asciilifeform: yes

02:04:57 asciilifeform: gold also solders beautifully, because the coating remains smooth

02:04:59 The20YearIRCloud: This is of course until we discover room-temperature superconductors, then it's all off

02:05:11 The20YearIRCloud: The little bit of silver soldering I've done has been quite smooth too

02:05:24 asciilifeform: room-temperature superconductors << unless we all perish in laser pistol duels.

02:05:38 The20YearIRCloud: I just want my emdrive hovercar and hoverbike

02:05:52 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: doubtful. in most circuitry heat loss in conductors isn't terribly critical, and it's hard to imagine said superconductors would be better/cheaper to fabricate than the metals we are discussing

02:05:56 The20YearIRCloud: Most of the data I'm seeing seems to support that once we reach that point, everyone gets their own airship

02:06:13 The20YearIRCloud: I'm sure that's right, but i can dream

02:06:38 asciilifeform: heat loss in conductors isn't terribly critical << consider why virtually all present-day applications of low temperature superconductors is in high-strength magnets.

02:06:44 asciilifeform: because there - yes, critical.

02:07:20 asciilifeform: room temperature supercon is a box of surprises.

02:07:31 asciilifeform: e.g., home 'mri' scanner plus some fairly simple image processing.

02:07:39 asciilifeform: result - no rich man need die from most cancers.

02:08:11 decimation: I think there are some cold superconductors used in new york to move lots of electricity through tight spaces too: http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/the-smarter-grid/superconductors-enter-commercial-utility-service

02:08:12 assbot: Superconductors Enter Commercial Utility Service - IEEE Spectrum

02:08:18 asciilifeform: don't shoot a man with lead and gunpowder, shoot him with pocket railgun on watch battery - classier.

02:08:35 The20YearIRCloud: we'

02:08:53 asciilifeform: (bonus: shoot with the battery)

02:08:59 The20YearIRCloud: We have been very much on the upswing concerning superconductors. 50 years ago you had to be near absolute zero, now you can do it at like -200c

02:09:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00085789 = 6.4342 BTC [+]

02:09:22 asciilifeform: al schwarts published a possible recipe for room temperature supercon - afaik, it was ignored.

02:09:43 asciilifeform: (or in use by chicoms - like his certain other creations)

02:10:28 asciilifeform: (which others?

02:10:31 asciilifeform: !s eotvos

02:10:31 assbot: 2 results for 'eotvos' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=eotvos

02:10:33 asciilifeform: )

02:10:40 The20YearIRCloud: is he the emdrive guy?

02:10:43 asciilifeform: no.

02:11:01 asciilifeform: his products - work.

02:11:17 The20YearIRCloud: Emdrive seems to work too

02:11:30 asciilifeform: in the sense that podkletnov's drive 'worked.'

02:11:50 asciilifeform: (emdrive, not schwartz)

02:12:17 The20YearIRCloud: It's going to JPL for testing, which is a pretty darn good sign as to it working

02:12:28 asciilifeform: as did podkletnov's, afaik.

02:12:40 The20YearIRCloud: And from the papers I've seen, it doesn't seem to be signfiicantly more different than the theory behind VASMIR, and NASA was all over that 15 years ago

02:13:18 asciilifeform: nasa is happy to fund every perpetual-motion crank on the planet - but if you're an industrial organic chemist with a history of rocking the boat - forget it.

02:13:36 asciilifeform: vasmir doesn't violate newton's 3rd.

02:13:47 The20YearIRCloud: neither does the emdrive

02:14:18 asciilifeform: if you ask any physics crank, his machines never violate physical law

02:14:18 The20YearIRCloud: and in the case of emdrive as well, it's signfiicantly more efficient than ion drives, but not absurdly so

02:14:26 asciilifeform: there's always an 'imaginary particle' involved

02:14:33 The20YearIRCloud: And it, just like ion drives, both would benefit amazingly well by room conducting superconductors

02:14:33 assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!

02:14:47 The20YearIRCloud: Like quantum entanglement?

02:15:10 asciilifeform: what classical law does it violate?

02:16:12 asciilifeform: understand, we'd all love a working perpetuum mobile or reactionless thruster.

02:16:32 The20YearIRCloud: I'd have to find the papers, but 30-40 years ago it was supposed to violate several principals

02:16:38 asciilifeform: but the folks involved with 'emdrive' have a rich history of fraud (usg and principals both)

02:16:49 The20YearIRCloud: And now, peer reviewed studies seem to come out every few months continaully supporting entanglement

02:17:08 decimation: asciilifeform: it seems to me that an Eötvös balance would be pretty straightforward to build

02:17:14 asciilifeform: decimation: dig the log

02:17:26 asciilifeform: decimation: we came up with a setup that didn't require eotvos balance

02:17:47 The20YearIRCloud: And harold white is a con too?

02:17:56 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=27-07-2014#772706

02:17:56 assbot: Logged on 27-07-2014 19:05:02; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in 2010 i concocted a variant of the test that could be carried out for approx. 50k USD, from scratch. schwartz answered that, in his estimation, the test would work to spec, but results would not be accepted by the field unless carried out on one of the two existing eotvos balances. one - adelberger's, one - chicom.

02:18:49 asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: no need to be a con man in the usual sense to acquiesce to usg SOP.

02:20:11 asciilifeform: if you want to know what test - bring schwartz out of his hidey hole, wherever it is, and ask him. he enjoys explaining it, me - it just depresses

02:20:40 decimation: But according to wikipedia, it appears that the Eötvös balance is some balls, a rod, some string, and some mirrors

02:21:01 asciilifeform: if you want the needed accuracy - it's rather more complicated.

02:21:14 decimation: okay that makes sense

02:21:16 asciilifeform: (atmosphere of controlled temperature, pressure - and, more importantly, provenance)

02:21:22 asciilifeform: concept of 'provenance' is key here

02:21:30 asciilifeform: i recall mircea_popescu even used this tale as an example in an essay

02:21:45 decimation: as in, ensuring that all of the masses can be traced to some standard, etc?

02:22:12 asciilifeform: not only standard, but as agreed upon by all pertinent professionals

02:22:25 asciilifeform: including the set that want schwartz to die in a fire

02:22:30 asciilifeform: (he nearly managed it once)

02:22:41 asciilifeform: (30+% 3rd deg. burns)

02:23:06 decimation: wow, that sucks. metrology is it's own weird little world

02:23:30 asciilifeform: if i were to sell a few extra organs, i could run the 50k variant of the experiment. and i'd go to my grave knowing that equivalence principle can be violated. but that'd be all.

02:23:35 asciilifeform: it won't: 'count.'

02:24:03 decimation: I called up NIST a few weeks ago, asked them how much it would cost to measure the phase noise of an oscillator. They said it would only cost their time, which would come to about $10k! for a morning session

02:24:19 asciilifeform: schwartz is one of the very few people i know of whose problem cannot be solved with money per se.

02:25:05 asciilifeform: he could, potentially, upgrade to rich pariah instead of modestly wealthy pariah

02:25:15 asciilifeform: but that'd be it.

02:25:59 decimation: well, mircea's theory is that musical tastes randomly change with time & entropy, the same is true for academic fashions

02:26:41 asciilifeform: decimation: there's also other factors.

02:26:45 decimation: one wonders which forgotten scientist will be recorded by history while official science is resigned to the dustbin

02:26:58 asciilifeform: decimation: adelberger, for example, would have to perform seppuku - and all of his students, and their students

02:27:33 asciilifeform: (if schwartz were to be permitted to carry out his experiment, and obtained a positive result)

02:28:51 asciilifeform: understand that the effect in question, even if it turns out to work as herr schwartz predicted, doesn't yield an 'antigravity jetpack'

02:29:01 asciilifeform: it exists - if exists - somewhere after the 8th decimal.

02:29:44 asciilifeform: but to even begin the kind of work it would take to 'technologize', is an investment that no one would remotely contemplate without the kind of proof that can only be obtained after his enemies were to give in.

02:29:48 decimation: yeah but it would have implications for relativity theory apparently

02:29:52 asciilifeform: or a few centuries after we've all died.

02:30:31 decimation: 'how much would you have to pay your enemies not to crush you in your moment of need'

02:30:55 asciilifeform: this, as i understand, is why schwartz never made any attempt to raise funding

02:31:17 asciilifeform: he's a clever enough fellow to understand that this would cement his already unenviable position

02:31:50 asciilifeform: regardless of the outcome of the experiment, he'd end up seen just like the fellow who opened the 'esp instutute'

02:31:59 asciilifeform: *institute

02:32:34 asciilifeform: you can't pay your enemies to die.

02:33:19 asciilifeform: if ussr were alive, perhaps he'd have defected.

02:33:25 asciilifeform: but i suspect he'd sooner fellate his 'magnum.'

02:34:01 asciilifeform: but this is the very problem that multiple kingdoms one can defect to is the only known solution.

02:34:06 asciilifeform: see galileo & florence.

02:34:26 asciilifeform: but they have to be actual sovereign kingdoms - not muppet shows.

02:34:37 asciilifeform: and - they have to give a damn.

02:36:07 decimation: yeah this connects with our discussion the other day about the collapse of the ussr being terrible for usg

02:36:17 asciilifeform: if i were, e.g, mircea_popescu, and gave a damn, i'd offer schwartz xxxx btc. half to show up here, half after he explains himself.

02:36:37 asciilifeform: but poor s. apparently went 'full perelman mode' and doesn't write back any more.

02:37:31 asciilifeform: (how to know that schwartz (or taleb, or...) collects 'prize' rather than usg stooge with a shannonizer and irc connection - exercise for alert reader.)

02:37:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29650 @ 0.00085641 = 25.3926 BTC [-] {2}

02:38:12 asciilifeform: the most i can offer to interested readers is repeat of mircea_popescu's algorithm 'have sex - with people, do business - with keys.'

02:38:16 decimation: “I don't even have an E-mail address. I have reached an age where my main purpose is not to receive messages,” Eco said at a party in his honor at the University Club of Chicago.

02:38:22 decimation: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1995/06/26/of-eco-and-e-mail

02:38:23 assbot: Of Eco And E-mail - The New Yorker

02:38:30 asciilifeform: this is called perelman mode.

02:38:40 asciilifeform: partial, if you like. full perelman is when you haven't a post address either.

02:38:50 asciilifeform: !s perelman

02:38:50 assbot: 3 results for 'perelman' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=perelman

02:39:17 decimation: perelman turned down the fields medal right?

02:39:24 asciilifeform: not only.

02:39:47 asciilifeform: he also turned down, if i recall, government pensions, interviews with journawhores, all of it.

02:39:57 asciilifeform: lives somewhere in russian north, among the trees.

02:40:01 asciilifeform: go find him.

02:40:27 decimation: probably with these folks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_People:_A_Year_in_the_Taiga

02:40:27 assbot: Happy People: A Year in the Taiga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

02:40:41 asciilifeform: if he's feeling charitable, he might leave archaeologists a box of notebooks the ants won't eat.

02:41:07 asciilifeform: (as, e.g, k. f. gauss did)

02:42:05 asciilifeform: for all we know - perelman was eaten by local fauna, or fellated his nagant

02:42:33 asciilifeform: but once in a while you hear that some busybody found him and told 'fuck off, can't answer for your safety if i see you again.'

02:42:42 decimation: it seems very few extreme math geniuses find this world a 'habitable' place

02:43:52 asciilifeform: perelman had the unfortunate combination of math and iron balls. he would not 'play ball'.

02:44:13 The20YearIRCloud: who is eco again?

02:44:18 decimation: another way of looking at it: he's decided to hold 'allodial title' over his mind, the only place that is really possible in this world for mere humans

02:44:18 asciilifeform: umberto eco.

02:44:25 asciilifeform: decimation: this.

02:44:37 decimation: he wrote 'the name of the rose' among other things, ascii quotes it from time to time

02:44:49 The20YearIRCloud: i've been off reading physics articles trying to grasp things and lost the conversation

02:44:52 asciilifeform: decimation: the only work of that man i found readable

02:45:41 asciilifeform: as i understand - he caught a memetic virus - 'postmodernism' - and might as well have contracted 'mad cow'.

02:45:49 asciilifeform: (eco, not perelman)

02:46:14 asciilifeform: same thing happened to russian mega-author v. pelevin

02:46:33 asciilifeform: the action of the 'virus' was evident in his early work, but it got worse.

02:46:52 decimation: it is probably terrible to become an object of some fad among elites today

02:47:30 asciilifeform: decimation: eco, pelevin, others - were clever chaps; understood that if you suck cock, you become a cock-sucker, even if 'your heart isn't in it' at first

02:48:05 asciilifeform: schneier, i'm certain, understood

02:48:11 asciilifeform: can carry on the list, but why.

02:48:16 asciilifeform: we can all write the list.

02:48:45 decimation: probably the only real defense is to go 'full perelman'

02:48:59 asciilifeform: less of a defense and more like slow-motion seppuku

02:49:32 asciilifeform: this, incidentally, is how science dies.

02:50:22 The20YearIRCloud: because of the gubberment?

02:50:25 asciilifeform: http://yarchive.net/physics/effete.html

02:50:27 assbot: Becoming effete (Steven B. Harris)

02:50:28 asciilifeform: nah.

02:50:40 asciilifeform: usg 'science' is - scar tissue.

02:50:49 decimation: 'this' being that 'science' becomes inhabitable for non-fraudulent scientists?

02:50:58 asciilifeform: aye.

02:51:03 decimation: I mean un-inhabitable

02:51:09 asciilifeform: right

02:51:44 The20YearIRCloud: so where do they go?

02:51:54 asciilifeform: civilizations senesce and die - like people.

02:52:36 asciilifeform: this is possibly the best-known fact about them.

02:54:21 decimation: that's a good-quality usenet rant

02:54:37 asciilifeform: lots more where it came from.

02:55:57 The20YearIRCloud: lol

02:56:03 The20YearIRCloud: i'm trying to catch up and understand :D

02:56:10 The20YearIRCloud: Darn my lack of understanding

02:56:29 decimation: !s professor salary

02:56:30 assbot: 1 results for 'professor salary' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=professor+salary

02:56:41 decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2014#451059

02:56:42 assbot: Logged on 21-01-2014 01:57:20; decimation: ?In 1890, professors salaries [at Amherst College] were $ 2,500, more than twenty times tuition. The step up from laborer to professor was immense, for the average wage earner in 1890 earned $425 a year. ?

02:57:00 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13559 @ 0.00085789 = 11.6321 BTC [+]

02:57:02 decimation: that explains some of the problem: the egalitarian mind-virus

02:57:16 asciilifeform: decimation: can't fix with money. soviet professors rolled in cash (compared to most other occupations.) this just attracts poseurs.

02:58:08 asciilifeform: (just as you can't fix, e.g., old age, with money - here's another 'yarchive' nugget - http://yarchive.net/med/conspiracies.html)

02:58:09 assbot: 404 Not Found

02:58:35 asciilifeform: go to hell, arsebot, it's 'found'

02:58:58 asciilifeform: point being - we don't know how to repair broken cultures. the best we know - is how to help them die.

02:59:58 asciilifeform: re: professors:

03:00:13 asciilifeform: consider if you were to offer $maxint for antigrav device.

03:00:33 asciilifeform: all the money in the world won't conjure into existence 'the rabbit out of a hat, unless said rabbit is already in the hat'

03:00:44 asciilifeform: at least, not on a time scale you could put up with.

03:01:11 decimation: yeah that's a good point. I think the money is less important than the relative status, which is less important than just getting people to defer to their betters quickly

03:03:15 asciilifeform: decimation: reward with status - get usg academics.

03:03:24 asciilifeform: you get what you optimize for - plus exhaust.

03:06:38 asciilifeform: there is probably a 'perelman' within driving distance of where you (any you) live. but he's almost certainly surrendered and sucking state cock (and perelman no longer) - or is occupied with the minutiae of physical survival

03:07:52 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, perhaps, is working on the problem of building a hard disk that survives several centuries of exposure in the wilderness

03:08:01 asciilifeform: and if he isn't, he should be

03:08:30 decimation: etch binary on rocks?

03:08:46 asciilifeform: latency's killer.

03:09:08 decimation: heh

03:09:25 asciilifeform: state of the art is probably (cloth-based) paper under inert gas.

03:10:52 decimation: asciilifeform: does your nexus 10 provide reasonably close 'paper-like' screen presentation?

03:11:18 asciilifeform: decimation: i trim all the border whitespace and get approx. the same 'paper' size as the original document

03:11:20 asciilifeform: so in that sense yes

03:12:07 asciilifeform: (as if this needed repeating - but for completeness - don't keep sensitive non-public material on 'nexus' or similar machine.)

03:12:15 decimation: assuming 1 inch margins that sounds about right

03:12:48 decimation: encrypted blobs are probably okay

03:13:00 decimation: no keys though

03:13:05 asciilifeform: solely ones you'd consent to have transmitted by radio across the planet

03:13:17 decimation: right.

03:13:35 asciilifeform: it is - a toy.

03:13:48 *: asciilifeform owns a number of toys, like other people

03:14:03 The20YearIRCloud: Did I tell you guys that the bank approved the series of loans for RentalStarter?

03:14:07 decimation: do you have any non-toy computers aside from your symbolics machines?

03:14:17 asciilifeform: depends how you cut it

03:14:18 decimation: good job The20YearIRCloud!

03:14:58 The20YearIRCloud: Big thing is the terms were superior to what I expected, 5% vs 7%, and the ability to do 20yr fixed payback vs 15yr payback or adjustable rates

03:15:00 *: asciilifeform organizes machines similarly to mircea_popescu

03:17:05 asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: almost certain that, given this, it doing anything but sitting on btc is a loss

03:17:42 The20YearIRCloud: as in not utilizing available capital>

03:17:53 asciilifeform: as in utilizing, to buy coin.

03:18:22 decimation: that's true, if btc is going to succeed, it is inevitable that it goes up several orders of magnitude in dollar price

03:18:29 The20YearIRCloud: Yeah

03:18:31 asciilifeform: someone (mircea_popescu?) suggested that, for so long as fiat long-term credit is available to anyone, this'll be the bullet that keeps killing it until dead.

03:18:58 The20YearIRCloud: Which is worrysome to me, but then I do have an auto-buy going through on a regular basis, so i'm trying to diversify in multiple methods - Bitcoin, USD, Silver/Gold/Coins , guns, real estate

03:19:35 The20YearIRCloud: hopefully between all that I'll personally be OK, but as far as the business is concerned, till bitcoin is a national currency and most workers get paid in it, it's gonna be hard for us to get truly involved in the BTC economy

03:20:34 decimation: The20YearIRCloud: sounds reasonable. real financial lending will not take place in bitcoin until it becomes the 'new currency'

03:21:17 The20YearIRCloud: And it's hard to judge when that will be, otherwise I do believe our model hedges well against USD collapse, and any major problems, while building enough capital and assets, should we have another downturn that we will be able to severely profit from it

03:32:18 peterl: The20YearIRCloud: so now you get to hold onto bitcoins and use loans to buy houses?

03:36:39 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18650 @ 0.00086132 = 16.0636 BTC [+]

04:01:01 ben_vulpes: !t h rent

04:01:02 assbot: [HAVELOCK:RENT] 1D: 0.00399999 / 0.00402843 / 0.00423999 (204 shares, 0.82179956 BTC), 7D: 0.00320001 / 0.00370607 / 0.00465000 (3085 shares, 11.43322802 BTC), 30D: 0.00320001 / 0.00402198 / 0.00478000 (9915 shares, 39.87789938 BTC)

04:27:00 mircea_popescu: wow i step out for one hour...

04:27:02 mircea_popescu: !up Curious_George

04:27:23 Curious_George: sup

04:28:30 mircea_popescu: nothing much.

04:30:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: kanzure: nah, those're plain old ruins <<< and this you know how ? :D

04:32:25 mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud: With regards to coins, you only need to avoid the very, very limited types that are assumed to be stolen from the mint << it's only limited for now, and as a reflection of the coins actually physically found so far. as more juicy morcels make the beast salivate, they'll become less limited.

04:33:39 mircea_popescu: decimation: yeah back in the early 1900's the whole idea of the 'silver dollar' was the precursor to the modern bezzle << not so clear cut, really. more like a power struggle between west and east.

04:34:25 decimation: mircea_popescu: that's true, in that case the eastern bankers were all in favor of gold (as they didn't envision some gov't bank would be able to print infinite silver)

04:35:05 mircea_popescu: amusingly, all the "buitres" scandal in argentina today is exactly reminiscent of midwestern and californian pro-silver aggitation in the 1880s

04:35:25 mircea_popescu: specifically, the "foreign interest" was putting forth gold standard to fleece the "hard working" "real" americans.

04:38:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: there's always an 'imaginary particle' involved <<< in phairness, this is how physics works all through.

04:41:05 mircea_popescu: decimation: okay that makes sense << what he means by provenance being that if you measure in argon and he measures in xenon, it's not directly obvious what the functions look like to verify if you got the same result and quantify the eventual differences.

04:42:30 mircea_popescu: decimation: I called up NIST a few weeks ago, asked them how much it would cost to measure the phase noise of an oscillator. They said it would only cost their time, which would come to about $10k! for a morning session <<< in other words, "can only work if you have supply of bezzle dollars", ie, "only with scrip saying it's ok signed by stalin"

04:42:59 decimation: yeah that sounds about right

04:45:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: if ussr were alive, perhaps he'd have defected. << a fine example of why the "one world, one fuhrer" delusion of government is unproductive.

04:45:34 mircea_popescu: ah look, he says so the next line himself :p

04:46:33 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: (how to know that schwartz (or taleb, or...) collects 'prize' rather than usg stooge with a shannonizer and irc connection - exercise for alert reader.) <<< if you recall something sort-of like that was tried, except this "major prize" approach is flawed as you explain. so, better version was tried :)

04:55:10 decimation: heh "The city voters—especially German Americans—overwhelmingly rejected the free-silver cause out of conviction that it would lead to economic disaster, unemployment, and higher prices. The diversified farmers of the Midwest and East opposed it as well, but the cotton farmers in the South and the wheat farmers in the West were enthusiastic for free silver. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_silver

04:55:10 assbot: Free silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

04:56:02 decimation: yet another reason why the germans in the us had to be de-kulaked

05:38:13 asciilifeform: plain old ruins << re: the ones pictured in linked blog. though surprising quantities of goodies in some.

05:39:41 asciilifeform: better version was tried << gurlz pulsating on camera ?

05:39:46 asciilifeform: or was there another 'try'

05:43:43 asciilifeform: re: provenance & physics thread - anyone unfamiliar with the story of blondlot and 'n-rays' is invited to read about it.

05:44:48 asciilifeform: (for nontechnical types, klotz's 'diamond dealers and feather merchants' has an excellent basic account.)

05:47:17 asciilifeform: 'free silver' << the fiat camel's nose in the american tent. not sure how to avoid this conclusion.

05:49:24 []bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $350 before November" http://bitbet.us/bet/1034/ Odds: 43(Y):57(N) by coin, 43(Y):57(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.13075596 BTC. Current weight: 99,516.

05:51:27 asciilifeform: I don't know that they can be built << lol, anything that was built, can be built.

05:57:48 asciilifeform: provenance << isn't about the differing principle of the proposed tester. it's about the fact experiment doesn't count if carried out wholly on apparatus constructed by a 'non-disinterested' party

05:58:21 asciilifeform: and will never be replicated on a 'disinterested' apparatus because this means essentially all practicing 'physicists' get blondlot-ed.

06:00:47 asciilifeform: this story concerned more than a quarrel between a weirdo chemist and the whole of usg/nato 'physics'

06:01:00 asciilifeform: it's really a typical death-rattle of the civilization.

06:02:09 asciilifeform: there isn't, as far as i understand, a 'fix'.

06:02:24 asciilifeform: perhaps intelligent roaches or marmosets will carry out 'schwartz's' experiment after we're through.

06:03:32 decimation: asciilifeform: is the death-rattle the gridlock caused by bureaucracy replacing science?

06:03:44 asciilifeform: don't blame the murder on the maggots.

06:03:56 asciilifeform: they just happen to eat corpses, it's in their job description.

06:04:52 asciilifeform: there's not a 'ready-canned' answer for why rome bit it

06:04:56 asciilifeform: why expect one - for us.

06:05:24 asciilifeform: but to attribute death to the graveworms - is a mistake.

06:05:54 decimation: decay from 'rule by men to the bureaucratic state was definitely on the list

06:06:08 asciilifeform: symptom.

06:06:24 asciilifeform: (of what? if we knew, there'd be at least a hypothetical pill.)

06:08:11 asciilifeform: thus far all we know is that civilizations behave like ms-winblows boxes - encrusts with turdolade until grinds to a halt, then reboot.

06:09:03 RagnarDanneskjol: what do you assume to be the root cause ascii? (besides societal mental atrophy)

06:09:29 decimation: heh turdolade. yeah I guess the bureaucracy really exploded with Diocletian, but things had already been going badly for at least a hundred years

06:09:42 asciilifeform: RagnarDanneskjol: i don't regard it as a proven fact that there necessarily is a 'root cause.'

06:09:47 decimation: plus the chinese bureaucracy lasted for hundreds of years per reboot cycle

06:10:13 RagnarDanneskjol: well there must be some likely culprits

06:10:55 asciilifeform: institutions of every kind decay in well-documented ways.

06:11:07 decimation: one answer: wealth and power sow the seeds of their own destruction, in the avarice and sloth of the new generations

06:11:51 asciilifeform: eventually immune system collapses, the proverbial 'eastern hordes water their horses in the rhine.'

06:13:18 decimation: another answer: when power is passed to the new generation, it tends to be divided rather than concentrated - in the end the franchise is extended to every human and his dog, and no one is really in charge

06:14:02 decimation: mongol hordes appear on the border - giving not one wit about the current power structure - and pillage as they see fit

06:14:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i really don't think its as political as all that.

06:15:03 asciilifeform: to stretch the metaphor a bit, sometimes the moribund get a stay of execution, when the horde grows terminally fat before it can reach the capital.

06:15:45 mircea_popescu: decimation basically, it was a new immigrant vs old immigrant debate. the old guys had savings and wanted to keep them. the new guys had mortgages and wanted to get rid of them.

06:16:01 asciilifeform: !s harpagon

06:16:01 assbot: 2 results for 'harpagon' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=harpagon

06:16:31 mircea_popescu: no but srsly, i can see perfectly valid reasons to not trust measurements made by new guys on new tools.

06:16:40 asciilifeform: very.

06:16:45 mircea_popescu: for that matter, recall the story of the milikan pious fraud i think it was ?

06:16:51 asciilifeform: this is why the tale should terrify people

06:16:52 mircea_popescu: where the original measurement was wildly wrong,

06:16:58 asciilifeform: because it's about death.

06:17:05 asciilifeform: yes, that.

06:17:09 mircea_popescu: and the subsequent ones didn't spread out but converged ?

06:17:18 asciilifeform: correct.

06:17:29 mircea_popescu: right. this was accidental, not the result of conspiraci, ie, political organising.

06:17:47 asciilifeform: no organization in the usual sense needed.

06:17:58 asciilifeform: forget who - used term 'prospiracy'

06:18:58 asciilifeform: like,

06:18:59 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=29-08-2014#814531

06:19:01 assbot: Logged on 29-08-2014 05:11:06; decimation: the thing is, Admiral McCain probably didn't have to issue any special instructions to 'finesse' the investigation, the investigators probably all thought it would be a brilliant plan

06:19:06 mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> (of what? if we knew, there'd be at least a hypothetical pill.) << the public appetite for personal humiliation decays, and with it, the possibility of life.

06:19:46 asciilifeform: thing is, nobody cancelled appetite for, e.g, death - 'mortido!'

06:19:55 asciilifeform: but not channelled usefully.

06:20:15 mircea_popescu: that seems to me a hollow analogy.

06:20:23 mircea_popescu: there really isn't a "counterbalance" to libiod.

06:20:39 asciilifeform: appetite for humiliation, i.e. risk ?

06:20:48 mircea_popescu: (something needs to push rocks up in the air, and the space station too. what's needed to push them down ?)

06:21:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the life and deeds of gabrielle, a buxom blonde girl.

06:21:42 mircea_popescu: when she's 16, she runs out of school (for which she risks a reprimand) and hides behind the bleachers to... kiss (for which she risks quite a lot of societal shunning)

06:22:10 mircea_popescu: when she's 36 she follows the workplace rules.

06:22:26 mircea_popescu: her appetite for humiliation has dwindled.

06:22:44 asciilifeform: appetite - or opportunity.

06:22:57 mircea_popescu: she is a "wiser woman" now. happily married now. at her place in life now. well...

06:23:05 asciilifeform: aha empty carapace

06:23:17 *: asciilifeform spotted a cicada in garden today, and thought of mircea_popescu's post about parenting

06:24:07 mircea_popescu: society in general and civilisation in particular is predicated on making sense of the world, which readily reduces to avoiding being humiliated. this is fine and dandy until it actually works.

06:24:33 mircea_popescu: but if you ever wondered why towards the end of an epoch art moves from classical to trollage... well... art is a sort of societal immune system.

06:24:39 asciilifeform: i always use the term 'calmed down' for these people. starting from having played 'half life', where there is a scene of an einsteinesque white coated figure who gets an alien 'headcrab' jump on his head. it takes roots, he struggles for a while, then 'calms down' and ambles on as zombie.

06:25:03 mircea_popescu: except the crab doesn't go on the head

06:25:08 mircea_popescu: more like, on the cunt.

06:25:11 asciilifeform: lol

06:26:57 xmj: moin.

06:27:15 mircea_popescu: http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6738/33213654.183/0_a1ede_331c5f32_L.jpg << i like this one

06:28:05 asciilifeform: lol, still on the trolley even.

06:28:28 mircea_popescu: http://www.janesoceania.com/oceania_cult/Cargocultplane.jpg compareand contrast.

06:28:47 decimation: is that a V1?

06:28:49 mircea_popescu: there's no distinguishing sufficiently advanced tech from magic, nor sufficiently decayed tech from faith.

06:28:59 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0HCR5DM.txt )

06:28:59 asciilifeform: !b 1

06:30:43 mircea_popescu: decimation nah, soviet hardware

06:30:52 mircea_popescu: http://lana-sator.livejournal.com/209537.html

06:30:54 assbot: , , , ... 18+ - ""

06:31:25 xmj: I think my brain just snowcrashed.

06:31:38 asciilifeform: obligatory:

06:31:41 asciilifeform: 'We understand automobiles. There are no homeopathic automobile repair shops, that try to repair your car by putting infinitesimal dilutions of rust in the gas tank. There are no automotive faith healers, who lay their hands on the hood and pray. People reserve such superstitions for things that they don’t understand very well, such as the human body… … Superstitions arise because we don’t understand. I

06:31:41 asciilifeform: f this trend continues, we may soon see homeopathic computer repair. Perhaps it will consist of adding a virus to a program, deleting the virus, and then running the program. You may soon be able to take your laptop to a faith healer, who will lay his hands on the keyboard and pray for the recovery of the operating system. Is this the future of computing? Or can we instead build on the idea that a computer progr

06:31:42 asciilifeform: am is a mathematical object that can be understood through logic?'

06:31:51 mircea_popescu: xmj how's that go ?

06:31:54 asciilifeform: -- lamport's 'The Future of Computing: Logic or Biology?'

06:33:03 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linked post reveals that rocket is a 'size and mass model' (i.e. dummy.)

06:33:04 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can attest the faith healing already happens, in those sad sad caves where middle aged women huddle to stroke their collective pretending to be part of civilisation.

06:33:51 asciilifeform: happens also at computer shops, yes

06:33:58 asciilifeform: or perhaps you meant those.

06:34:37 mircea_popescu: govt offices, newspaper offices, phone pharms, i seen it everwhere.

06:34:44 asciilifeform: 'Внутри более сохранившегося командного пункта разрушения изрядные, а обстановка мрачная - кто-то разодрал аппаратуру и жег кабели прямо на месте, отчего стены и потолки покрыты копотью'

06:35:03 mircea_popescu: knew a camwhore who slept with her laptop because the one time she didn't it felt snubbed and wouldn't work right the whole day.

06:35:27 decimation: except I was reading Dijkstra in "structured programming" and he wrote that it was hopeless to try to "prove" practical code. He did suggest that this is a reason for humility and simplicity.

06:35:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00086242 = 14.3162 BTC [+]

06:35:40 asciilifeform: 'in the better-preserved command post the destruction is substantial, and the atmosphere morose - someone tore apart the machinery, and burned the cables right where they lay - from which the walls and ceiling were covered in soot.'

06:35:48 mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud: i've been off reading physics articles trying to grasp things and lost the conversation << should probably be the motto of b-a

06:36:07 asciilifeform: why burned cables? i can say right now. copper dealer doesn't pay for rubber - only copper.

06:36:15 mircea_popescu: obviously thieves yea

06:36:33 mircea_popescu: decimation for simplicity at any rate.

06:36:59 mircea_popescu: decimation: it is probably terrible to become an object of some fad among elites today << you know, i'm a poststructuralist jus' fine.

06:37:03 mircea_popescu: is it evident ?

06:37:10 asciilifeform: decimation: who listened to dijkstra. academics - good joke. programmers - ha.

06:38:09 decimation: reminds me of teufelsberg: http://www.abandonedberlin.com/2010/06/teufelsberg-abandoned-spy-station.html

06:38:10 assbot: Teufelsberg (Abandoned spy station) | Abandoned Berlin

06:41:36 mircea_popescu: decimation: yeah that's a good point. I think the money is less important than the relative status, which is less important than just getting people to defer to their betters quickly << no, not quickly. painfully.

06:41:39 mircea_popescu: that's the point there.

06:42:01 mircea_popescu: the "no pain, no gain" equation holds all sorts of critical, unexpected applications.

06:42:04 xmj: mircea_popescu: slept ~17h tonight. slept most of yesterday... (well, powernaps in IST airport and plane)

06:42:21 mircea_popescu: maybe it's the tse tse

06:43:39 decimation: mircea_popescu: hormesis: "it's okay for you (and society)" http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/220309.php

06:43:40 assbot: High Altitude Boosts Longevity And Reduces Risk Of Dying Of Ischemic Heart Disease - Medical News Today

06:44:21 mircea_popescu: "In one of the most comprehensive studies of its kind, researchers at the University of Colorado School of Medicine in partnership with the Harvard School of Global Health have found that people living at higher altitudes have a lower chance of dying from ischemic heart disease and tend to live longer than others."

06:44:36 mircea_popescu: "experiment" studies people who already did live there. helpful o.O

06:44:58 mircea_popescu: in other news, people living in africa get less sunstroke.

06:45:14 asciilifeform: !s married grow taller

06:45:14 assbot: 1 results for 'married grow taller' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=married+grow+taller

06:45:54 mircea_popescu: "We all act as though we're immortal until we get sick, and then we

06:45:54 mircea_popescu: want the cure now! And when we don't get it, we look for a witch to

06:45:54 mircea_popescu: blame, because witch-hunting is something the human brain does

06:45:54 mircea_popescu: naturally. Certainly it naturally sucks at doing science; much

06:45:54 mircea_popescu: unnatural training is required for that. But gossiping and

06:45:55 mircea_popescu: witch-finding and crime-solving and conspiracy-theories -- that really

06:45:57 mircea_popescu: gets the heart going. I see it has yours going, when the science was

06:45:59 mircea_popescu: really boring! Which is to you say, you're a typical human female."

06:46:01 mircea_popescu: ouch.

06:46:51 mircea_popescu: the typical woman female being ariana huffington.

06:47:20 decimation: interestingly the western states that are bathed in radiation from the sun & uranium from the ground have the lowest cancer rates (yes there are confounders) http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/dcpc/data/state.htm

06:47:21 assbot: CDC - Cancer - Data and Statistics - Cancer Rates by State

06:47:22 xmj: Women.

06:47:47 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12595 @ 0.00086242 = 10.8622 BTC [+]

06:47:53 asciilifeform: http://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/haematique/album/150002/view/663491 << lol at double-stencil

06:47:53 assbot: .

06:47:56 xmj: To me, science comes naturally.

06:47:57 xmj: But then..

06:48:12 xmj: http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/understanding_research/extreme_male_brain

06:48:14 assbot: The "Extreme Male Brain": An Explanation for Autism? | Interactive Autism Network

06:48:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22255 @ 0.00085578 = 19.0454 BTC [-] {2}

06:49:16 asciilifeform: we all like to laugh at 'witch hunt' except - we have witches. who you gonna call.

06:50:19 mircea_popescu: <xmj> To me, science comes naturally. << know anyone who actually is of this opinion ?

06:51:56 xmj: A great many friends, yes

06:52:02 xmj: all on the autistic spectrum

06:52:41 mircea_popescu: well, any of them actual scientists ?

06:52:48 mircea_popescu: not aspiring, scientists-in-training, etc.

06:53:12 xmj: most entrepreneurs

06:53:38 mircea_popescu: yeah, well, maybe you shouldn't trust that too far then.

06:53:59 xmj: yeah, well, maybe you have no idea what you're talking about :)

06:54:23 mircea_popescu: how;s that work ?

06:54:40 xmj: entrepreneurship pays more than research (postgrad) positions

06:54:42 asciilifeform: what it even means, 'it comes naturally'

06:54:47 asciilifeform: for instance, shitting comes naturally

06:54:50 mircea_popescu: science comes easy to you according to yourself, some friends that are into business and this is somehow my problem ?

06:55:03 asciilifeform: most people, if well fed, will produce the requisite pile of shit with very little active work on their part.

06:55:03 xmj: you do not get it.

06:55:07 asciilifeform: this means - comes naturally.

06:55:19 mircea_popescu: yes, not getting "it" comes naturally to me.

06:55:20 asciilifeform: xmj: so what kind of pile you produce?

06:57:16 asciilifeform: sleep - also comes naturally.

06:57:20 *: asciilifeform off to comes naturally

06:58:15 *: decimation agrees, follows suit

07:00:32 xmj: note to self, ignore mircea_popescu on most any discussions as unhelpful

07:18:28 mircea_popescu: im very helpful according to most people i know! HELPING COMES NATURALLY TO ME

07:18:38 *: RagnarDanneskjol wonders why help is expected during the course of normal discussion

07:18:53 RagnarDanneskjol: http://topr.online.ucf.edu/index.php/Setting_Discussion_Expectations

07:18:54 assbot: Setting Discussion Expectations - Pedagogical Repository

07:32:31 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11850 @ 0.00085634 = 10.1476 BTC [+]

07:40:59 RagnarDanneskjol: https://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/vandenhooff-versum.pdf

07:41:21 RagnarDanneskjol: (VerSum: Verifiable Computations over Large Public Logs)

07:56:55 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10700 @ 0.00086491 = 9.2545 BTC [+] {2}

08:50:49 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13552 @ 0.00086527 = 11.7261 BTC [+]

09:05:35 RagnarDanneskjol: !up RagnarsBitch

09:21:18 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5350 @ 0.00085962 = 4.599 BTC [-]

09:32:41 chetty: My dear,How are you? i am a banker in the bank, i get your contact from yahoo terrorist search.Reason,i am in need of your help as a foreigner i want to transfer an abandoned $15million to your account 40% for you while 60% for me please indicate your interest for more detail.

09:33:39 mircea_popescu: lol moving up in the world.

09:35:42 chetty: cheeky, starting off with my dear :P

09:36:14 mircea_popescu: i think someone put "my dear" for "hello" in some sort of 1970s azn manual of english

09:36:22 mircea_popescu: it's suspiciously too common.

09:36:29 mircea_popescu: britishism

09:38:35 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18300 @ 0.00085489 = 15.6445 BTC [-] {2}

09:45:38 chetty: http://www.ruv.is/frett/fresh-eruption-north-of-bardarbunga-video

09:45:38 assbot: Fresh eruption north of Bardarbunga -video | RV

10:49:45 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15498 @ 0.00085352 = 13.2279 BTC [-]

10:52:48 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2852 @ 0.00085268 = 2.4318 BTC [-]

10:59:21 mircea_popescu: hot stuff.

11:25:20 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2000 @ 0.00054999 = 1.1 BTC [+] {2}

11:36:43 mircea_popescu: ;;ticker

11:36:45 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 491.48, Best ask: 492.99, Bid-ask spread: 1.51000, Last trade: 493.01, 24 hour volume: 5792.89372358, 24 hour low: 484.95, 24 hour high: 505.12, 24 hour vwap: 496.502818151

12:19:13 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4112 @ 0.00085861 = 3.5306 BTC [+]

12:39:33 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29600 @ 0.00086174 = 25.5075 BTC [+] {2}

12:49:26 penguirker: New blog post: http://fraudsters.com/2014/minigame-smg-august-2014-statement/

13:29:24 kakobrekla: dense log. nice.

14:29:01 mircea_popescu: stop being unhelpful kako :D

15:30:21 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15294 @ 0.00086313 = 13.2007 BTC [+]

15:59:50 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HMF] [PAID] 5.05816000 BTC to 63`227 shares, 8000 satoshi per share

16:01:52 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] [PAID] 5.00000000 BTC to 50`000 shares, 10000 satoshi per share

16:02:53 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 11.99437484 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 1043 satoshi per share

16:04:57 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23572 @ 0.00086536 = 20.3983 BTC [+] {2}

16:05:57 assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.60389450 BTC to 15`210 shares, 10545 satoshi per share

16:26:58 assbot: MolokoDesk +v failed; L1: 0, L2: 0

16:29:57 kakobrekla: !up MolokoDesk

16:47:40 asciilifeform: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/08/how-can-you-tell-whether-russia-has.html << mega-lol

16:47:41 assbot: ClubOrlov: How can you tell whether Russia has invaded Ukraine?

16:53:44 ben_vulpes: <The20YearIRCloud> And it's hard to judge when that will be, otherwise I do believe our model hedges well against USD collapse, and any major problems << good old belief in the hedge.

16:54:22 ben_vulpes: i bet that model has yet to be...modeled.

16:54:31 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see also yesterday's discussion of 'hedging' against collapse using buried treasure.

16:54:44 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4173 @ 0.00086556 = 3.612 BTC [+]

16:55:22 ben_vulpes: more like an unkempt bush than any sort of a hedge

17:08:00 *: ben_vulpes goes off to come naturally

17:22:18 jurov: asciilifeform re:orlov it's similar as russian police completely ignoring tortures of gays...if they aren't complicit actively, then it isn't massacre?

17:22:32 jurov: if invasion must mean full scale involvement?

17:22:48 ben_vulpes: http://www.live5news.com/story/26319685/cops-summerville-high-school-student-arrested-after-writing-threatening-message-on-assignment

17:22:49 assbot: Police, lawyer release statements on student's alleged dinosaur - Live5News.com | Charleston, SC | News, Weather, Sports

17:24:37 chetty: Is there a secret drug in the US water that destroys common sense?

17:25:41 Apocalyptic: chetty, one might come to think there must be

17:28:33 punkman: it's all that fluoride :P

17:29:40 jurov: don't be naive people, common sense is an euphemism

17:31:53 kakobrekla: http://temp.vasilius.com/ebook/cuckoo_egg.pdf

17:38:19 jurov: http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/08/28/u-s-hikes-fee-to-renounce-citizenship-by-422/

17:38:20 assbot: U.S. Hikes Fee To Renounce Citizenship By 422% - Forbes

17:40:20 xmj: jurov: there was this other state that taxed its citizens who wanted to move out.

17:40:30 xmj: well mostly the jewish citizens, and the tax was almost 100%.

17:40:43 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: state of the art is probably (cloth-based) paper under inert gas. << Seems to be the case. Ink is another concern as well.

17:43:51 chetty: <xmj> well mostly the jewish citizens, and the tax was almost 100%.// this isnt even the taxes (thats more) this is just a processing fee

17:44:16 xmj: yyyyeah

17:44:19 xmj: that's what they said, too

17:52:41 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35700 @ 0.00086567 = 30.9044 BTC [+] {2}

17:53:42 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9650 @ 0.00086313 = 8.3292 BTC [-]

18:03:01 ben_vulpes: today i learned that the html date field doesn't support placeholders

18:05:54 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18100 @ 0.0008617 = 15.5968 BTC [-] {2}

18:06:44 BingoBoingo: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zETmzcHDkg8/U_vUCxD0c6I/AAAAAAAAIy8/28PFGYIJ5Pg/s1600/Funniest_Memes_my-friend-who-works-at-a-pharmacy_4250.jpeg

18:10:12 ben_vulpes: to js or to not js...

18:13:48 asciilifeform: 2-3k usd is chump change for folks who can otherwise afford to escape, though

18:14:27 gernika: Where is a good place to escape to?

18:14:34 asciilifeform: quite likely a great many escapees were paying more than this just in extraterritorial tax

18:15:07 asciilifeform: gernika: bad question. see earlier discussion of 'usable' machines. no such thing as 'good place' any more than 'usable interface.'

18:18:50 asciilifeform: gernika: it is almost like asking publicly 'what's a good place to bury treasure' (see also earlier discussion of this)

18:20:39 chetty: <asciilifeform> gernika: bad question. see earlier discussion of 'usable' machines. no such thing as 'good place' any more than 'usable interface.'//+++

18:21:49 asciilifeform: it's interesting how people ask questions that have this bizarre presumption of sameness baked in

18:22:03 asciilifeform: no one asks 'what's a good place to buy beer', everyone seems to understand that 'it depends'

18:22:29 asciilifeform: but 'where to escape' - always, they ask.

18:22:35 ben_vulpes: if one has more than several hundred thousand US there are more taxes than just the expatriation fee.

18:23:35 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: afaik, there's a confiscatory asset tax

18:23:35 asciilifeform: nazi-style

18:23:35 ben_vulpes: ah, i guess its > 2mil in assets or 157K+ for five years running

18:23:39 ben_vulpes: best to own nothing

18:24:02 asciilifeform: easier now than ever.

18:24:32 *: ben_vulpes puts the fiat assets in lady v's name

18:24:48 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes intends to escape alone ?

18:25:41 ben_vulpes: creating noise

18:26:24 chetty: the fees and taxes have increased a lot in the last ten years, as has the difficulty for us citizens living elsewhere, it will get worse

18:27:05 The20YearIRCloud: ben_vulpes: low leverage on real estate bought at a value has done well in every crash in the US, including the 1930s depression era

18:27:19 asciilifeform: plus it isn't clear that paying the 'legit' fees gets you anything in the long run. who's gonna force usg to honour the cancellations when they decide not to? the devil ?

18:29:10 ben_vulpes: i honestly don't even see the point of expatriation

18:29:12 asciilifeform: if the place you fled to is in the habit of letting in u.s. polizei and looks away when they stuff people into a flying gasenwagen for return to gulag - what difference does it make that you paid the ransom? they can always demand a greater ransom, retroactively.

18:29:44 ben_vulpes: don't outrun bear, be a less visible target than others

18:29:50 ben_vulpes: 'course, hanging here doesn't help much with that.

18:30:30 asciilifeform: the point can be any number of things. e.g, getting out of the range of kingdom of aztlan's field artillery.

18:30:46 asciilifeform: (what's that? check back in 20 yrs.)

18:31:55 chetty: better chance of a bank account elsewhere if you are not a us citizen

18:32:08 asciilifeform: until 'citizenship is for life act of 2018' etc.

18:32:42 asciilifeform: (how? only a matter of time when some idiot pays the cancellation fee and then changes his mind - like, famously, lee harvey oswald)

18:33:13 asciilifeform: he sues to have the cancellation voided, and then creates precedent, which will be cemented by legislature

18:33:26 asciilifeform: 'save our misguided stray flock abroad!'

18:37:14 ben_vulpes: legislature surely will have more interesting things on their hands.

18:37:45 asciilifeform: what could be more interesting than effective dekulakization and deterrence of republikflucht.

18:38:43 chetty: hmm maybe not, they would lose all the fees for renounce ..

18:39:02 ben_vulpes: deterrence i get, but chasing those already flown?

18:39:16 asciilifeform: people have asked me why haven't escaped, and i answer 'i haven't $xx mil.' to which, eyes bug out, and i have to explain 'a real escape means retrieval is not simply legally, but militarily uneconomical.'

18:39:53 chetty: legal is pointless ..

18:40:08 asciilifeform: correct. legal is whatever the present-day whim of usg is.

18:41:22 asciilifeform: 'escape' means there's a missile battery (or, at the threadbare minimum, 24/7 death squad) standing between usg and you.

18:42:47 asciilifeform: folks could escape from germany in, e.g, 1939 to - usa, which put an ocean and two navies between enemy and their arse

18:43:03 asciilifeform: escaping from usg today to just about anywhere is more like - escaping to poland in '39.

18:45:34 asciilifeform: very few of the 'escapees' seem to fully apprehend the megalomaniacal evil they're running from.

18:46:46 chetty: there is actually a place that named itself 'galts gulch', boy is that hiding :P

18:47:15 asciilifeform: and those escapees who draw their daily bread from a bank account under 'international community' jurisdiction (that being all save possibly chicom & russian) are merely taking a very expensive prolonged vacation.

18:47:43 asciilifeform: which may well come to an abrupt end when a monkey finally receives an order to zero their balance.

18:50:07 chetty: yeah bringing the children home isn{t all that hard, zero the balance and give em a plane ticket

18:50:37 chetty: and they will come home, wagging their tails behind them

18:52:01 asciilifeform: so, formula is: 'don't own. if you own, don't admit it. if you admit it, don't write about it. if you own and admit and write, don't sign your name. if you own, admit, write, and sign name, don't be surprised.' (apologies to rev. t. reese.)

18:52:37 asciilifeform: (original - 'Do not think. If you think ? do not speak. If you think and speak ? do not write. If you think, speak and write ? do not sign. If you think, speak, write and sign ? don't be surprised.')

18:54:18 chetty: but 2+2 has always been 5, we have always been at war with oceanana or was that eurasia ..

18:55:45 xmj: doublethink is powerful.

18:58:57 punkman: http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/I2O/Programs/Mining_and_Understanding_Software_Enclaves_%28MUSE%29.aspx

18:58:59 assbot: Mining and Understanding Software Enclaves (MUSE)

19:18:43 oglafbot: http://oglaf.com/battledress/

19:18:44 assbot: Battledress

19:19:42 asciilifeform: 'a sparrow flew in the winter, froze and fell down. a cow strolled by. shat out some dung, splat! - and covered sparrow. he warmed up and began to chirp. a cat strolled by, heard chirping, removed sparrow, and ate him. From this tale, three morals: not he is your enemy who plants you down in shit; not he is your friend who removes you from shit; when sitting in shit - shut up, don't chirp.' - soviet folktale.

19:21:59 assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3YSK2CG.txt )

19:21:59 kakobrekla: !b 1

19:21:59 kakobrekla: saved.

19:28:16 chetty: asciilifeform, first time I heard that one, great!!!

19:28:55 asciilifeform: chetty: it's a classic. from it comes the admonition, often repeated to 'discontented' folks there, 'shut up, sit, don't chirp'

19:29:34 chetty: well that kinda misses the point, but oh well

19:29:39 punkman: instant #b-a classic

19:29:43 asciilifeform: lol

19:38:45 nubbins`: hi

19:39:04 nubbins`: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=756955.msg8614004#msg8614004

19:39:04 assbot: [PRE-ORDER] "What is Bitcoin?" silkscreened posters [9/50 left]

19:39:08 nubbins`: more pictures, only 9 left

19:43:38 ben_vulpes: is that a chrysalis at the bottom in the face?

19:47:44 ben_vulpes: nubbins`:

19:48:05 nubbins`: it's a sleeping-bag hammock, the stitching is in the next layer :D

19:53:43 jurov: lol chrysalis

19:59:46 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15350 @ 0.00086073 = 13.2122 BTC [-] {3}

20:04:28 punkman: why a sleeping bag hammock?

20:05:08 nubbins`: because hammocks are comfortable, and it's snowing on the right side of the page

20:23:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24300 @ 0.00086031 = 20.9055 BTC [-]

20:24:08 BingoBoingo: http://samsclass.info/125/proj11/LSU-HIPAA.htm

20:24:09 assbot: Illegal Retaliation by LSU for HIPAA Violation Complaint

20:29:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34714 @ 0.00085538 = 29.6937 BTC [-] {3}

20:35:26 ben_vulpes: noice

20:38:02 assbot: midnightmagic +v failed; L1: 0, L2: 0

20:38:22 BingoBoingo: !up midnightmagic

20:38:29 midnightmagic: doh

20:44:54 BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/archives/

20:44:57 assbot: Archive | Bingo Blog

20:58:05 asciilifeform: 'In Courtroom 478, property owners are instructed to sign in and indicate with a checkmark on the sign-in sheet the kind of property they are there to save. The sign-in sheet lists the following categories of property: "house," "car," "money," or "gun." ... Assistant district attorneys with the Public Nuisance Task Force fully control the proceedings inside "Courtroom" 478. There is no judge, no jury, and not ev

20:58:06 asciilifeform: en a court reporter to transcribe these "public hearings."'

20:58:13 asciilifeform: (loltron, http://cryptome.org/2014/08/phila-da-forfeiture-lawsuit-axisphilly.pdf)

20:59:59 asciilifeform: 'Prosecutors routinely continue and relist civil-forfeiture cases and they unilaterally determine whether any documentation provided by the property owner is sufficient.'

21:05:29 TheNewDeal: ;;bc,stats

21:05:32 gribble: Current Blocks: 318506 | Current Difficulty: 2.38446700388033E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 318527 | Next Difficulty In: 21 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 hours, 38 minutes, and 19 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 27353776597.8 | Estimated Percent Change: 14.71652

21:07:21 TheNewDeal: !up anduck

21:07:29 Anduck: TheNewDeal: sup

21:07:51 TheNewDeal: Hey did you ever do business with usagi

21:08:13 TheNewDeal: Was wondering if he is reputable

21:08:19 Anduck: possibly, possibly you've asked me befor.

21:08:28 Anduck: i do not know about his businesses really.

21:08:42 TheNewDeal: Ahh my bad

21:20:05 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6800 @ 0.00086215 = 5.8626 BTC [+]

21:21:38 ben_vulpes: TheNewDeal: is usagi trying to get you to do biz with him?

21:22:00 TheNewDeal: Not explicitly. He was bragging off hand

21:22:48 TheNewDeal: Trying dig through the wot for some practice

21:22:58 TheNewDeal: To*

21:24:35 TheNewDeal: Have you had any first person experience with him ben?

21:29:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18250 @ 0.00086228 = 15.7366 BTC [+]

21:31:27 ben_vulpes: (you can tab-complete my name to ping me, btw TheNewDeal)

21:31:48 ben_vulpes: and not personally. i don't do this crazy asset dance - i just build shit and acquire btc.

21:32:33 ben_vulpes: nubbins` actually inspired me on the topic, although he still does the numismatic thing

21:34:19 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20704 @ 0.00086134 = 17.8332 BTC [-]

21:36:16 ben_vulpes: let the permanent record permanently reflect that i permanently have no btc though despite all my best efforts to the contrary

21:38:26 *: asciilifeform barely even knows what btc smells like.

21:40:48 kakobrekla: Bit coin, Where it is registered? can i have a clear picture about Bitcoin?

21:41:00 TheNewDeal: Need to find ky own production avenue yet...

21:41:15 asciilifeform: kakobrekla: stop chirping & buy usa taxcoin (tm), terroriste.

21:41:30 kakobrekla: :)

21:45:30 jurov: paupercoin

21:45:59 jurov: ftfm: pa(u)percoin

21:46:54 jurov: ;;google paupercoin

21:46:54 gribble: Dave's Cupboard: Lobster Slider Patties: http://davescupboard.blogspot.com/2011/12/lobster-slider-patties.html; Dave's Cupboard: December 2011: http://davescupboard.blogspot.com/2011_12_01_archive.html; Fictional products don't violate trademark laws - Boing Boing BBS: http://bbs.boingboing.net/t/fictional-products-dont-violate-trademark-laws/39229

21:47:26 jurov: lol gribble got completely different stuff than me

21:47:36 jurov: i got http://www.amazon.com/State-Commemorative-Quarters-Collectors-mints/dp/1441312315 as first result

21:47:37 assbot: 50 State Commemorative Quarters Collector's Map (includes both mints!): Peter Pauper Press, David Lindroth: 9781441312310: Amazon.com: Books

21:48:02 kakobrekla: gibbles personal search.

21:49:01 jurov: when nobody's looking, gribble eats lobster patties

21:51:16 The20YearIRCloud: but are the quarters GOLD PLATED?

21:51:38 TheNewDeal: 2 atoms thick

21:53:34 jurov: sry to break the news to you both... you'll have to collect them yourselves :)

21:53:40 jurov: plated or not

21:53:49 The20YearIRCloud: i can buy them from the franklin mint!

21:56:49 jurov: sub-units of the crown made of aluminium, true paupercoins.

21:57:21 jurov: but they were at least usable wherever round object was needed, with optional hole drilled

21:57:41 jurov: <= 5 eurocents are copper plated steel

21:57:57 jurov: will decay quickly if drilled

21:58:36 The20YearIRCloud: most are going to copper/zinc/nickel plated steel

21:58:43 The20YearIRCloud: canada got rid of real nickels in 82

22:18:18 jurov: http://www.elementsales.com/ecoins.htm interesting tidbits (asciilifeform: gallium coins too)

22:18:18 assbot: Metallium, Inc: Rare, Exotic Metals and Elements for Sale - Element Coin Series -

22:25:49 mircea_popescu: http://postimg.org/image/5mom3xh7x/ << meanwhile the wanna-be romanian msm is google advertising on my name.

22:25:50 assbot: View image: google ads

22:25:51 mircea_popescu: le lol.

22:28:32 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: more like an unkempt bush than any sort of a hedge. * ben_vulpes goes off to come naturally << irl lol.

22:28:46 mircea_popescu: (virtually lolling comes easier to anyone)

22:29:57 mircea_popescu: jurov: asciilifeform re:orlov it's similar as russian police completely ignoring tortures of gays...if they aren't complicit actively, then it isn't massacre? << this theory is appealing unless one stops to consider they were by this token complicit in the murder of whoever many million "tutsi"s whatever the fuck that may be, happening wherever the fuck that may have happened at some point nobody cared about.

22:30:30 jurov: russian law does not concern the tutsis

22:30:45 jurov: as compared to their own citizens

22:31:32 mircea_popescu: yes but the point of contention there would be that according to the russian law, there exists no such thing as a gay russian citizen

22:31:58 jurov: the point of contention was "this is not an invasion"

22:32:00 mircea_popescu: law always and everywhere functioning as this device for the construction of a simplified world more or less based on the world as is

22:32:57 mircea_popescu: i wouldn't trust orlov much furher than i can throw him tbh.

22:33:14 jurov: and i got carried too far with similes

22:33:22 mircea_popescu: "Because if Russia invaded on Thursday morning, this is what the situation on the ground would look like by Saturday afternoon." sounds suspiciously like "i am a potent man, if i had raped her she'd be pregnant. is she pregnant ? no ? well then!"

22:33:58 jurov: guess i should think about sex too when coming up with argument :D

22:34:24 danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, http://danielpbarron.com/DerpReport/ updated

22:34:25 assbot: Derp Report

22:35:29 mircea_popescu: jurov well see, if your simile revolves around sex (and being gay is all about sex innit) then sex is best considered all around. the old "never use an item you don't see the full contours of" engineering caveat.

22:35:34 mircea_popescu: !up jdanks

22:37:04 mircea_popescu: "Add to that the relentless radio chatter, all in Russian, which anyone who wants to can intercept, and the operation becomes impossible to hide." orly.

22:38:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw, does orlov admit officially to russian military training as a strategist/analyst/whatevs ?

22:51:05 mircea_popescu: assbot: U.S. Hikes Fee To Renounce Citizenship By 422% - Forbes << color me the transparent color of surprise.

22:52:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: orlov, at least according to his autobio, grew up in usa from late childhood on, same as i did.

22:53:19 mircea_popescu: nah, i'm quite confident he went to school (mid level, nothing fancy).

22:53:34 mircea_popescu: sorta the same way you can tell if this pinoy chick learned english with the nuns.

22:54:21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik he was an engineering student.

22:54:30 asciilifeform: (where - i'm not certain.)

22:54:31 mircea_popescu: no, i mean military school.

22:54:45 asciilifeform: he would be flattered to hear this notion, i'm certain.

22:55:15 mircea_popescu: nothing flattering about it, the military (all nations) has yet to have made a decent school. even the stuff they think is good stinks.

22:56:02 mircea_popescu: which is quite why the regular beatings delivered to them by people who didn't go to school. engineering - a comparable line of work - doesn't suffer from this plague of "he's a voodoo plumber and well... his plumbing is actually better than ours"

22:57:16 mircea_popescu: unless you credit the "here's the secret engineers hate : how a social media employed mom of three from kansas built a fusion reactor in her kitchen!" ads

22:59:36 mircea_popescu: *: ben_vulpes puts the fiat assets in lady v's name << you plan on leaving her behind or something ?

22:59:43 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8664 @ 0.00085923 = 7.4444 BTC [-]

23:01:07 thestringpuller: ben_vulpes is setting up his wife?

23:01:43 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: creating noise << here's some noise for you : borrow as much as you can, to buy consumer items, then liquidate everything for cash, buy bitcoins and a plane ticket. wish everyone left behind good luck on your way out, what's an extra 100k they have to pay on your account on top of the 2 trn they have to pay for on bush's account and the 9 to 15 on obama's ?

23:02:13 mircea_popescu: !up no_imagination

23:03:01 jurov: he needs a passport first. preferably with rusty staples.

23:03:20 thestringpuller: i thought you can't run away from your debt unless you defect?

23:03:22 mircea_popescu: The20YearIRCloud: ben_vulpes: low leverage on real estate bought at a value has done well in every crash in the US, including the 1930s depression era <<< how about twelve oaks ? how well did outright owned property fare in the face of the carpetbagger ?

23:03:31 thestringpuller: chetty told me she still pays US taxes and hasn't been there in like a decade

23:06:46 nubbins`: <+ben_vulpes> nubbins` actually inspired me on the topic, although he still does the numismatic thing << gotta keep the shinies in circulation

23:06:51 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: plus it isn't clear that paying the 'legit' fees gets you anything in the long run. who's gonna force usg to honour the cancellations when they decide not to? the devil ? << this is the most germane point. i'd rather pay power Y to cancel my citizenship with power X than power X itself.

23:07:42 mircea_popescu: a government can only be relied on to enforce an agreement when it's to your detriment, so makingany sort of reflexive agreement with a goverment makes no sense. the only sensible agreements one can make with governments is "how about you two fight".

23:08:41 nubbins`: ^

23:10:18 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: people have asked me why haven't escaped, and i answer 'i haven't $xx mil.' to which, eyes bug out, and i have to explain 'a real escape means retrieval is not simply legally, but militarily uneconomical.' << let me tell you a story.

23:11:11 chetty: well I dont have the fire power to hold off the gasenvagens, yet. So I file my taxes

23:11:21 mircea_popescu: i once took a pretty girl off the hands of a better man, strictly for the reason that he was beset by this mental disease of "before x, must y. before y, must z, no less than k" and on it went. i was beset by no such issue and so i fucked the girl before he managed to satisfy the prerequisites to having the town council meeting that'd have decided if it was a good idea to turn over the covers in their marital bed.

23:11:31 mircea_popescu: there's a lot of advantages to living dirty, dirt chief among them.

23:12:35 chetty: how the heck can you call that a better man?

23:12:54 asciilifeform: 'before x, y' is a professional disease of engineering types. might as well fault a sailor for walking bow-legged on land.

23:13:23 mircea_popescu: just saying, no dog died of knowing too many tricks.

23:13:30 chetty: <asciilifeform> 'before x, y' is a professional disease of engineering types. might as well fault a sailor for walking bow-legged on land.// +++++++++

23:13:36 mircea_popescu: chetty im being facetious for sort.

23:13:38 mircea_popescu: sport*

23:13:42 asciilifeform: and the man who can y without x-ing is called an 'inventor' and has much fun.

23:13:49 mircea_popescu: they always think being better men comes naturally to them.

23:14:34 chetty: better belongs right in there with usability and other such nonsense

23:15:23 mircea_popescu: "The Usability of Better Men, And Other Such Nonsense". should be a book.

23:15:39 asciilifeform: 'the usability of the better man, comes naturally'

23:16:04 asciilifeform: (how much fine derpatronics can be packed into one sentence? contest)

23:16:13 nubbins`: the natural usability of the better man, or z>y>x

23:16:14 mircea_popescu: ''

23:16:17 mircea_popescu: I WIN :D!!1

23:16:21 asciilifeform: lel

23:16:29 nubbins`: heh

23:16:39 mircea_popescu: "derp sees empty string, proceeds to supply wholly owned derpage, giving me infinity results"

23:16:48 mircea_popescu: why did you think pokerface is even a thing.

23:17:12 asciilifeform: if i had raped her she'd be pregnant. is she pregnant ? no << orlov's hypothetical portrait is based on the georgian cleanup

23:17:52 asciilifeform: which went almost exactly as painted in his piece.

23:18:04 nubbins`: shrem plead guilty

23:18:11 mircea_popescu: more like, based on the rather naive expectation that since what he read in books he's seen irl, it must mean the books are wise.

23:18:55 asciilifeform: the people in question have a marked habit of playing 'by the book'

23:19:03 cazalla: mircea_popescu, posts for the week http://pastebin.com/W5kKqBVQ

23:19:03 assbot: August 31, 2014 1. http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showpost.php?p=16284867& - Pastebin.com

23:20:31 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo http://media.oglaf.com/comic/battledress.jpg << the girl's tong is actually a torture device. even should it be natural silk, make a woman walk in that for an hour and see.

23:20:54 nubbins`: "the last thing you want is everybody owning large amounts of bitcoins."

23:21:32 asciilifeform: nah, next-to-last. the last thing is everybody flying atomic dirigibles, lasers blasting away.

23:21:44 mircea_popescu: why ? sounds like fun.

23:22:11 asciilifeform: lol

23:22:24 mircea_popescu: From this tale, three morals: not he is your enemy who plants you down in shit; << if only they taught this, whip in hand, in us schools.

23:22:36 mircea_popescu: it'd almost be enough to make me like the place.

23:23:02 nubbins`: have a lel at my expense: http://imgur.com/ZywsJNl

23:23:02 assbot: imgur: the simple image sharer

23:23:14 mircea_popescu: chetty: asciilifeform, first time I heard that one, great!!! << and here i thought everyone knew that one.

23:23:33 cazalla: misprints worth more nubbins` ?

23:23:38 nubbins`: cazalla if only

23:23:43 asciilifeform: i was almost certain somebody would pipe up, 'old hat'

23:23:46 mircea_popescu: !lelbot deduct nubbins` a lel

23:23:52 nubbins`: that's destined for life as a permanent test print

23:24:12 nubbins`: maybe once some other cool shit gets layered down, it'll be a nice piece on its own

23:24:35 nubbins`: <lelbot> your lel balance is currently zero, please try having a lel

23:25:23 *: chetty isn't everyone

23:26:07 mircea_popescu: chetty lol

23:26:09 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7582 @ 0.00085923 = 6.5147 BTC [-]

23:26:21 thestringpuller: nubbins`: i'm sending payment now

23:26:26 thestringpuller: ;;tickewr

23:26:26 gribble: Error: "tickewr" is not a valid command.

23:26:29 thestringpuller: ;;ticker

23:26:30 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 480.07, Best ask: 480.97, Bid-ask spread: 0.90000, Last trade: 480.98, 24 hour volume: 11019.20063541, 24 hour low: 473.33, 24 hour high: 504.75, 24 hour vwap: 487.010999602

23:26:32 nubbins`: with only hours left on the clock!

23:26:33 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo: http://samsclass.info/125/proj11/LSU-HIPAA.htm << not bad. sam sounds just like the sort of guy that should be here.

23:26:34 assbot: Illegal Retaliation by LSU for HIPAA Violation Complaint

23:26:37 thestringpuller: I KNOW!

23:26:38 thestringpuller: lolol

23:27:27 nubbins`: buy a poster while you're at it

23:28:06 thestringpuller: how much to I add to invoice for that?

23:28:13 nubbins`: .11

23:28:23 thestringpuller: ;;calc 0.2823 + .11

23:28:23 gribble: 0.3923

23:28:27 thestringpuller: ;;ident nubbins`

23:28:28 gribble: Nick 'nubbins`', with hostmask 'nubbins`!~leel@stjhnf0157w-142163082159.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOP.nl.bellaliant.net', is identified as user 'nubbins`', with GPG key id CF2950F23C844002, key fingerprint 5015BD3D0AE659C8B8632F31CF2950F23C844002, and bitcoin address None

23:28:34 mircea_popescu: http://www.ij.org/philadelphia-forfeiture-backgrounder << heh

23:28:35 assbot: The Institute for Justice

23:28:35 thestringpuller: roger :D

23:28:39 BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: He's got some other gems http://samsclass.info/124/proj14/norton.htm Amazing the stuff you stumble into

23:28:39 assbot: Norton v. Python

23:28:46 mircea_popescu: it's right there in city hall, but let's pretend we don't know about it./

23:28:52 thestringpuller: nubbins`:

23:28:57 thestringpuller: sending now

23:29:03 thestringpuller: 5735e854f041ecff815fc205addb73a183b7f2fd27eb16affae41896c25f6b99 << txid

23:29:14 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the last time a woman was raped was in 2005, back when the last guy could still get it up. but letr's all derp about rape

23:29:19 nubbins`: tyvm

23:29:25 nubbins`: should i sent poster to same address?

23:29:45 mircea_popescu: The most terrifying place in Philadelphia is Courtroom 478 in City Hall. This is where property owners enter Philadelphia?s Civil Forfeiture Machine. Civil forfeiture is a little-known legal device that allows law enforcement officials to take your property, sell it and pocket the proceeds?even if you have done nothing wrong.

23:29:46 mircea_popescu: Philadelphia?s automated, machine-like forfeiture scheme is unprecedented in size. From 2002 to 2012, Philadelphia took in over $64 million in forfeiture funds?or almost $6 million per year. In 2011 alone, the city?s prosecutors filed 6,560 forfeiture petitions to take cash, cars, homes and other property. The Philadelphia District Attorney?s office used over $25 million of that $64 million to pay salaries, inc

23:29:46 mircea_popescu: luding the salaries of the very prosecutors who brought the forfeiture actions. This is almost twice as much as what all other Pennsylvania counties spent on salaries combined.

23:30:05 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-08-2014#817499

23:30:06 assbot: Logged on 31-08-2014 20:58:05; asciilifeform: 'In Courtroom 478, property owners are instructed to sign in and indicate with a checkmark on the sign-in sheet the kind of property they are there to save. The sign-in sheet lists the following categories of property: "house," "car," "money," or "gun." ... Assistant district attorneys with the Public Nuisance Task Force fully control the proceedings inside "Courtroom" 478. There is no judge, no jury,

23:30:28 nubbins`: imagine, a courtroom in city hall

23:30:43 asciilifeform: more like a 'troika' than a court

23:31:01 mircea_popescu: it contains no judge (not even one of those non-judge "magistrate" usg agents)

23:31:11 mircea_popescu: so it's a courtroom only in the sense that... it isn't.

23:31:14 mircea_popescu: a la america.

23:31:15 thestringpuller: nubbins`: can you follow up with an invoice of the fee break down (shipping, shirt cost, poster cost etc. etc. etc.)?

23:31:19 thestringpuller: ;;ident

23:31:20 gribble: Nick 'thestringpuller', with hostmask 'thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-97-12.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net', is not identified.

23:31:50 thestringpuller: ;;eauth thestringpuller

23:31:51 gribble: Request successful for user thestringpuller, hostmask thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-97-12.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net. Get your encrypted OTP from http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/0FF2943DA179E169

23:32:16 mircea_popescu: "As a result, the entire family was thrown out of the house for one week, even though Chris and his wife were never charged with or convicted of any wrongdoing. The family was allowed back in pending the outcome of their forfeiture proceeding, but only under the condition that they kick out their son and agree to waive their rights in any civil-forfeiture proceedings in the future. "

23:32:21 mircea_popescu: this waiver for the future device...

23:32:39 thestringpuller: ;;everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:e110e07e0043a8f3de9b9d8f5e3dacabb843a7dd7e2eec5b4d6af109

23:32:44 gribble: You are now authenticated for user thestringpuller with key 0FF2943DA179E169

23:32:48 thestringpuller: ;;ident

23:32:49 gribble: Nick 'thestringpuller', with hostmask 'thestringpuller!~leflor@99-39-97-12.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net', is identified as user 'thestringpuller', with GPG key id 0FF2943DA179E169, key fingerprint 6ACE36E786F39A4ADC4506DE0FF2943DA179E169, and bitcoin address None

23:32:59 nubbins`: thestringpuller: sure

23:33:19 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the reason there's very little public noise about such proceedings presently is that the system is still in the 'punish relatives of враги народа' phase. (in the linked case, separated husband was convicted of dope dealing)

23:33:42 nubbins`: iirc this whole thing of "waiving your rights" doesn't really exist in canada

23:33:47 nubbins`: i mean, i'm sure there are some situations

23:34:11 nubbins`: but let's say you sign a waiver at the rock climbing gym, rope breaks, neck breaks. waiver isn't worth the paper it's printed on

23:34:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no dude, let's "raise awareness" about how niggers got to survive as an ethnic group (something most equally retarded pacific and red skin tribes did not) because they got transported by the dutch to slave in the us, and this happened centuries ago was a very bad thing.

23:34:46 mircea_popescu: THAT needs more awareness.

23:34:54 asciilifeform: ahaha

23:34:54 mircea_popescu: the fact that the city hall has an office of theft does not.

23:34:58 thestringpuller: nubbins`: why is the poster so expensive?

23:35:03 mircea_popescu: pour some ice water on your head why dontcha. jesus god.

23:35:07 thestringpuller: lol did I miss the 35 dollar mark or is it 15 for shipping?

23:35:16 nubbins`: ~20 for shipping

23:35:20 nubbins`: they're being flat-packed

23:35:27 thestringpuller: Gotcha! just wondering.

23:35:46 thestringpuller: If you could put all that in the final invoice that'd be dope as fuck appreciate doing business with you.

23:35:48 nubbins`: only 8 left now, you got the early bird price ;D

23:36:10 thestringpuller: oh and could you do a separate invoice for the commission that's in progress (the remaining balance etc.)

23:36:12 mircea_popescu: TheNewDeal: Trying dig through the wot for some practice << not such a bad idea.

23:36:14 thestringpuller: (i need a fucking project manager)

23:36:25 nubbins`: sounds like i need a secretary

23:36:30 thestringpuller: :D

23:36:31 thestringpuller: YUP

23:36:36 thestringpuller: movin' on up

23:36:41 thestringpuller: to the delux apt in the sky

23:36:46 nubbins`: ;;ident

23:36:46 gribble: Nick 'nubbins`', with hostmask 'nubbins`!~leel@stjhnf0157w-142163082159.dhcp-dynamic.FibreOP.nl.bellaliant.net', is identified as user 'nubbins`', with GPG key id CF2950F23C844002, key fingerprint 5015BD3D0AE659C8B8632F31CF2950F23C844002, and bitcoin address None

23:36:55 nubbins`: amt paid on portrait: $100. amt remaining: $350

23:37:02 nubbins`: ^ invoice :D

23:37:19 thestringpuller: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-08-2014#817723 << cool saving this

23:37:20 assbot: Logged on 31-08-2014 23:36:55; nubbins`: amt paid on portrait: $100. amt remaining: $350

23:38:12 nubbins`: ;;google i said it, i did it

23:38:13 gribble: 1987 - Sam the Record Man - I Said It I Did It - YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwoK5lXcZsY; I SAID IT. I DID IT. | Sous Style: http://sousstyle.com/2012/03/14/i-said-it-i-did-it/; How y'all realer? If I said it, I did it – Writer's Block - Genius: http://rap.genius.com/197789/Royce-da-59-writers-block/How-yall-realer-if-i-said-it-i-did-it

23:38:53 mircea_popescu: RagnarDanneskjol btw, here's something you should be able to find : http://fraudsters.com/2014/smg-april-2014-statement/ (grep for "the first")

23:38:54 assbot: S.MG, April 2014 Statement pe fraudsters - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.

23:38:56 midnightmagic: It is not possible to waive fundamental rights in Canada. Certain other righs (such as moral rights in copyright law) also can't be legally waived or given away or signed away.

23:39:13 RagnarDanneskjol: thank you. I'm on it

23:39:25 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "no text found"

23:39:27 midnightmagic: But lots of rights can be contracted or signed away or waived..

23:39:31 nubbins`: there y'go, thanks mm

23:39:56 mircea_popescu: thestringpuller make it case insensitive i guess ?

23:40:02 thestringpuller: it is

23:40:10 thestringpuller: grep -i "the first"

23:40:26 thestringpuller: should i pipe raw html via curl?

23:40:40 nubbins`: your grep is borken

23:40:51 mircea_popescu: yeah you're doing something mistakenly wrong.

23:40:58 mircea_popescu: relatedly : There was a young fellow named Brewer whose girl made her home in a sewer. Thus he, the poor soul, could get into her hole yet still be unable to screw her!

23:46:00 thestringpuller: ;;ticker

23:46:00 gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 477.02, Best ask: 478.19, Bid-ask spread: 1.17000, Last trade: 477.0, 24 hour volume: 11206.89568617, 24 hour low: 473.33, 24 hour high: 504.75, 24 hour vwap: 486.898965225

23:46:07 thestringpuller: hoorah. dat dip.

23:46:59 asciilifeform: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/us/police-shooting-kills-crew-member-working-for-reality-show-cops.html << mega-lol

23:47:02 assbot: Log In - The New York Times

23:56:20 penguirker: New blog post: http://thewhet.net/2014/use-your-nose/